** [This thread has been havily edited due to fire-fights/derailing posts in the original thread that forced it to be locked. All of the posts not connected to Snarley's script have been deleted, to preserve the value in the thread without the bad blood. Some posts were deleted because without the off-topic posts they referenced, they made no sense. Thanks to all participants in the thread for understanding. - basicwiz]**

Snarley's original post:

I've been following the thread about Genesis in Poser, and the idea of implementing subdivision in Poser got my attention.

I've been playing a bit with it today, to see what can be done.

Here one of the hands has been subdivided. It makes quite a difference.

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With some posing and some simple morphs ...

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WOOT!!! I knew if it was anybody...gonna be you...lol.

Laurie

And with conformed clothes ...

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Facial expressions ...

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And UVs still intact. Yay!

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eeeww. The old Bertha. lol. Nice work. Which version of sub D are you using? Doo Sabin, Catmul Clark or just a generic smoothing algorithm?

Catmul Clark, Teyon.

I have some issues with parented body parts at the moment - one character has lost her eyes!

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Awesome work Snarly..

Maybe you could exclude body parts? That way one would only subdivide that which is needed..

Quote - Catmul Clark, Teyon.

I have some issues with parented body parts at the moment - one character has lost her eyes!

That's ok...she's got a spare. :D

Cage has done a lot of work with Python based subdivision in Poser. I guess he has to be the expert on the subject. You may like to contact him before finalising anything, because he may have a few useful tips.

it looks very good. does it improve rendering the surface vs. poser smoothing?

thumbs up!

.

Very cool.. but does this break morphs?

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Done right before render. With undo! :D

Oops....

Laurie

Isn't that much what poser smoothing already does though?

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - Isn't that much what poser smoothing already does though?

No, or Genesis would look a lot better in Poser than it does currently.

Laurie

I'm not goin there.. ;)

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Nah, it was just a statement of fact ;). I was really hoping this would help the Genesis in Poser folks have a better experience ;). Poser's smoothing doesn't seem to smooth it as much as it needs to be. Subdivision is the answer for that :D.

Laurie

Even turning it up? Could be people are just using the default setting.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Yeah, even turning it up to 180 doesn't help completely because it's so low res. I think Catmul-Clark is what DS4 uses. Not sure tho. If it is, Snarly's script will be perfect :).

Laurie

Very cool, excellent work Snarly! Lot's of great things happening for Poser lately!

Laurie, yes, Catmul-Clark is what DAZ Studio uses.

Coldrake

SnarlyGribbly: Astounding!

I had sort of assumed that this would be more useful for new content, that explicitly exported the control mesh and has a facility to mark crease edges. For existing content smoothing seemed more appropriate. Your experiments look fine, but have you tried a high end figure? On your first picture the wrinkles on the thumb seemed to be smoothed out.

Snarlydribbly: You are an inspiration because you just tried it, instead of falling into the "it can't be done" or the "it must be done" camp.

I have subdivided Sydney in Silo and reimported her and she looks fine. However I can't see any difference between subd and smoothing when rendered. What should I look for?

Snarlygribbly : I have no idea your education about modeling App's ,SubD meshes ect ect.
For all I know your the master at zBrush.
So forgive my igonrace.
I do get your trying to help. Thanks a lot.

If your going to make your mesh a SubD you half to model it a certain way.
If it's modeled wrong the eyes could do bad things.

A well modeled SubD mesh will be 100% quads .no triangles.
Charactor polycount around 20,000.
Most Poser meshes probably not the best meshes to test your SubD plug.
V3 was not made for SubD.
V4 was but her polycount is to high.

Genensis would be the best mesh to use for testing your SubD plug.

Good Luck

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For got to say you need to lower Genesis Subdivion level to 0 before you export.
Polycount will be around 18,872.

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The cr2 exporter always exports at base resolution level 0. At 19592 polygons.
That's the main reason why (some) morphs on genesis do not look good. Smoothing can't help here

If DAZ are doing what I think they are doing then you probably wont need this.

With the Plugin structure you now have in SR3 it wouldn't surprise me to find DAZ are making a "hook" type plugin, this will allow you to work with the DS engine directly in Poser, which is what they wanted all along. So no more jumping through hoops to get a CR2 to use in Poser, instead you'll just load the DUF file from your library and you'll have a CC SubD Genesis just like we do, you'll also have access to all of the other functions that make Genesis what it is in DS.

To me that's the logical and most common sense aproach, but the DAZ devs have shown in the past to be a bit lacking in both, so don't be too surprised if it's something completely different :lol:

Quote - it looks very good. does it improve rendering the surface vs. poser smoothing?

I haven't tried it *instead8 od Poser's smoothing, only in addition to it.

There is a noticeable improvement, although not as much as I'd hoped for. Still, an improvement nevertheless.

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Quote - For existing content smoothing seemed more appropriate. Your experiments look fine, but have you tried a high end figure?

I agree.

For my own renders I'll probably just stick to Poser's smoothing, which does an excellent job. This was just for fun really, to see if it could be done.

As for high end figures, I'm not sure what you mean. The benefit of this is to be seen on low poly figures, rather than high poly, if that's what you mean.

I've tried it on Aiko 3 and it works fine...

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Quote - Snarlygribbly : I have no idea your education about modeling App's ,SubD meshes ect ect.

Zilch. Nada. I know nuffink :-)

Quote - For all I know your the master at zBrush.

I couldn't model a box!

Quote - Genensis would be the best mesh to use for testing your SubD plug.

Of course, but that's where my plan ran aground :-)
I don't have Genesis and don't fancy installing DS just for this.
I need a Genesis user to play with it!

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Quote - > Quote - For existing content smoothing seemed more appropriate. Your experiments look fine, but have you tried a high end figure?

I agree.

For my own renders I'll probably just stick to Poser's smoothing, which does an excellent job. This was just for fun really, to see if it could be done.

As for high end figures, I'm not sure what you mean. The benefit of this is to be seen on low poly figures, rather than high poly, if that's what you mean.

I've tried it on Aiko 3 and it works fine...

Do you have a test script so I can see what it does to S5's knee?

Heh heh!

I made it into a little plugin using the new addon stuff in SR3 :-D

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I don't have genesis but I have plenty of low res models you're welcome to try it on.

This is great news. Currently I export to MODO to subdivide low poly objects when rendering in Octane. So this would be extremely great for the upcoming Reality 3 as LuxRender doesn’t smooth as well as Poser.

How does it work? Can it be base to groups, Figures, props or is it the entire scene that would be subdivide? Can you pose a figure after it has been subdivided?

Keep up the awesome work!

Let me explain how this works first, and then if anyone wants to have a go with it then PM me here or at RDNA and I'll send a link to it.

I'm wary about sharing it widely at the moment because:

There are no instructions
It's not properly tested
It MODIFIES your scene
Somebody somewhere will ruin their scene and be angry with me :-)

If you can live with those issues and risks, then I'll happily give it to ya :-D

Anyway ...

The script's strategy is this:

Select a figure (only figures at the moment)
Export the figure as an OBJ to a temporary location, in its posed and morphed state
Import the temporary OJB as an intermediate prop
Rip a load of data out of the intermediate prop
Use that data to construct a new geometry, subdivided
Recreate the original material zones and assign polys appropriately
Delete the intermediate prop
Hide the original figure

So, the original figure remains in the scene, but hidden. All conformed clothing and parented props etc. remain conformed and parented to the invisible figure.

Sounds a bit cumbersome when you write it all down but it seems to work quite smoothly.

The undo works simply by deleting the new geometry and setting the original figure to Visible again.

The subdivision should be the last thing you do before rendering.

If you want to modify your scene afterwards, then use the undo feature and do the subdivision again next time you render.

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Quote - > Quote - For existing content smoothing seemed more appropriate. Your experiments look fine, but have you tried a high end figure?

I agree.

For my own renders I'll probably just stick to Poser's smoothing, which does an excellent job. This was just for fun really, to see if it could be done.

As for high end figures, I'm not sure what you mean. The benefit of this is to be seen on low poly figures, rather than high poly, if that's what you mean.

I've tried it on Aiko 3 and it works fine...

Muddled thinking on my part. Low end figure is more what we need. Of course the meshes we see are refined subd meshes. We should try a low poly control mesh. If not Genesis then maybe the Antonia team could supply it.

If the SM people chose to implement this it would be a lot of work, since they'd have to get it right. There'd be a new section in the cr2 to specify crease edges and control when and when not to subdivide.

Your experiment is very helpful at quantifying the benefit. It is not worth doing if the final result is not much better or faster than the smoothing option.

So basicaly it creates a sub-d prop and hides the figure? (not trying to belittle this by putting it into simple terms, just tring to make sure my simple brain understands it)

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Quote - So basicaly it creates a sub-d prop and hides the figure? (not trying to belittle this by putting it into simple terms, just tring to make sure my simple brain understands it)

Exactly

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Colorcurvature wrote a script that runs in Python outside of Poser. It subdivides the obj and preserves the morphs. It works prettty well except there were some smoothing issues. I think he moved on to other things, but I'm sure he has some insights to share...

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Snarlygribbleby: How hard is it, you think, to subd only the parts of the figure that are close to the camera?

I don't mean with your script, but an automatic solution in general.

(I am thinking ahead about trees and buildings; large objects where only a small part might be close to the camera.)

The subdivision script definitely helps and is much closer to the DS4 representation

Renders in Poser are with smoothing on and angle at 180

First picture is before subd in Poser

Second picture is after subd script has been applied (with smooth and angle at 180)

Thirs picture is how it renders in ds4

This was a simple first test. But it shows that subd can do here what smoothing cannot

Quote - Snarlygribbly : I have no idea your education about modeling App's ,SubD meshes ect ect.
For all I know your the master at zBrush.
So forgive my igonrace.
I do get your trying to help. Thanks a lot.

If your going to make your mesh a SubD you half to model it a certain way.
If it's modeled wrong the eyes could do bad things.

A well modeled SubD mesh will be 100% quads .no triangles.
Charactor polycount around 20,000.
Most Poser meshes probably not the best meshes to test your SubD plug.
V3 was not made for SubD.
V4 was but her polycount is to high.

Genensis would be the best mesh to use for testing your SubD plug.

Good Luck

It's not made for V3 or V4...why the heck would ya wanna subdivide something that's smooth enough? Only really low rez stuff you'd wanna subdivide.

Geeze.

Laurie

Quote - This was a simple first test. But it shows that subd can do here what smoothing cannot

Yes, but let's bear in mind that what it did here was reconstruct an improperly exported shape. If the DAZ thingy would export the first subd level as it should, then we would get exactly the same shape in the render.

I can see the advantages of subd at the modelling stage. Staying at low poly and being able to make sweeping changes without being bogged down by huge numbers of polys.

What are the advantages of having subd as a preprocessing stage before a render in Poser? If it just blindly does the whole scene I can see none. May as well do the subd in the modelling software, as it is done now.

The only advantage I can see is in conjunction with LOD, to gain speed.

Awaiting to be corrected by the more knowledgable people :-)

Quote - It's not made for V3 or V4...why the heck would ya wanna subdivide something that's smooth enough? Only really low rez stuff you'd wanna subdivide.

Geeze.

I think what Rorrkonn tried to say was that V4 was designed with subd.

Obviously the model was already exported subdivided.

Here are two pictureswith a lot more morphs applied and with both an M5 and S5. I applied the scripts to each of them. The knees, the ears and fingers are better now.

This is indeed a very useful script if you want to use genesis in Poser

First one before

Second one after

Quote - Second one after

Yup .. that seems to have made a difference!

Good to see that the script might have some use :-D

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Unfortunately subd does not solve the pokethrough issues (those which start to appear when bending the figures). You still need a bit of help from magnets or the morphbrush

Thats quite cool wimvdb. Great results.

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Quote - Unfortunately subd does not solve the pokethrough issues (those which start to appear when bending the figures). You still need a bit of help from magnets or the morphbrush

I have no idea about Genesis, but just a thought: Have you tried running the subd script on the clothes also?

Quote - > Quote - Unfortunately subd does not solve the pokethrough issues (those which start to appear when bending the figures). You still need a bit of help from magnets or the morphbrush

I have no idea about Genesis, but just a thought: Have you tried running the subd script on the clothes also?

Yes, I did - made no difference

It really depends on how the clothes are made. Some clothes depend entirely on the autofit/autosmoothing of DS4, others include morphs to compensate for bending because the creatore wants to have control of the folds. The last category works much better in Poser

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Unfortunately subd does not solve the pokethrough issues (those which start to appear when bending the figures). You still need a bit of help from magnets or the morphbrush

I have no idea about Genesis, but just a thought: Have you tried running the subd script on the clothes also?

Yes, I did - made no difference

It really depends on how the clothes are made. Some clothes depend entirely on the autofit/autosmoothing of DS4, others include morphs to compensate for bending because the creatore wants to have control of the folds. The last category works much better in Poser

Ye there are going to be issues regarding this. Some Genesis vendor clothing has smoothing set at over 20 on default. That is a sh1t load of smoothing.

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While the result is better, neither Smoothing nor SubD can "repair" a bad morph.
It still is a BAD knee morph. :-(

I"ll stick to good morphs :-) and Posers Smoothing :-)
Thank you for the test Wim.

PS;
Snarly, respect, you make great scripts.

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the ears are much better too

the ears were a big problem before with genesis in poser.

So once snarly's script is applied can you just save the figure and reuse it in other poses etc?

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I like the knobby type knee. To me it screams adolescense.

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Quote - the ears were a big problem before with genesis in poser.

So once snarly's script is applied can you just save the figure and reuse it in other poses etc?

Love esther

No, you don't save anthing.

What you do is simple: Create your scene the usual way, do all your test renders as you are used to. Then, at the final render, you SAVE the scene first, start the script, pick each genesis figure and press for each one Subdivide. So if you have more genesis figures you run it on each of them. The script will create a new object for each of them, each of which is a subdivided copy of the morphed and posed genesis with all its textures attached. Then you do your final render. If you are satisfied, you are finished. If not, you either do an UNDO ALL from the script or you reload the scene, make your changes and then run the script again and render.

In other words - it is the last thing you do before you render.

pity, but I suppose it is still a great work around.

wonder how that scene imports into vue.

Love esther

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I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

Actually, that's probably the best workaround, since heavily subdividing all your figures would bog your machine down while posing unless you have gobs of ram ;).

Laurie

It creates a separate disposable prop. So it makes no sense saving it.

The script is an addon and it remains active. It is just the press of a button and a few seconds waiting. It is pretty much the same UI as setting a higher subdivision level in DS4

And if the ears and knees are covered (pants) you don't even need to run the script

there's a point hey. Actually you make a really good point Laurie. Almost the perfect system. So even after all the subdivision though you still need smoothing at render?

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Yes, you definitely need smoothing on. I think the script subdivides once and some morphs need a little bit more subdividing to get real smooth

And I think if DAZ repairs the CR2 importer to export a high res version, you will get even better results

You might not need smoothing. Depends on how much you've subdivided your model ;). I have a pair of shoes working right now. Since they have some sharp edges, Poser wants to smooth them. So I turned smoothing off for the shoes. They look fine, but you still have to set smoothing in the render settings ;).

Let's say Snarly adds a choice of subdivision levels. Keeping in mind that the least amount of smoothing you can get away with is probably your best choice, you could use a higher smoothing and not have to set Poser's smoothing. For myself tho, I'd use the least amount of smoothing from the script and just keep Poser's smoothing on.

Laurie

well it is all quite exciting. I will wait and see as I have a feeling this is just the beginning.

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Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2798437

What version of Poser will this require, if any?

Here's the thread where cage posted his subdivide script. I've used it a few times with success. I quite often simulate relatively low-poly meshes in the cloth room, for speed, and then subdivide afterwards to iron some of the wrinkles out.

Edited to add: cage admits that while his script implements subdivision, it isn't a complete smoothing solution. Hanging around to find out more, in any case.

It is an addon - so I think it requires P9SR3 where the addons were introduced

For use with genesis it would require SR3 anyway because of the animated joints

Quote - Let's say Snarly adds a choice of subdivision levels.

That could easily be done ...

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I wonder if the additional subdivision would improve or change displacement maps at all?

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - What version of Poser will this require, if any?

As shared so far, it needs Poser 9 with SR3. However, I have a version that runs in Poser 8 too, without the addon functionality of course.

Quote - Here's the thread where cage posted his subdivide script. I've used it a few times with success. I quite often simulate relatively low-poly meshes in the cloth room, for speed, and then subdivide afterwards to iron some of the wrinkles out.

Edited to add: cage admits that while his script implements subdivision, it isn't a complete smoothing solution. Hanging around to find out more, in any case.

I looked at that script. It's very clever and does a lot more (in some ways) than mine.

One of the consequences of that is that it's much slower, because it's doing a lot more work, with many more options.

Unfortunately it also crashed a lot on complex figures and I couldn't understand the code well enough to fix it. I got as far as working out that the crashes occurred when it encountered a vertex that was not associated with a polygon ...

I'd love to that script updated ...

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Quote - I wonder if the additional subdivision would improve or change displacement maps at all?

Maybe.

It could make working with the morph brush interesting too.

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I figured that some really faceted places on Genesis might need more than one level ;). I'm hoping rarely tho :).

Laurie

I'm glad someone is exploring this sort of thing. :woot: Snarly is smarter than I am. Go, Snarlygribbly!

I haven't loaded the new SR yet. I don't want to drag a thread off topic, but can you reveal to us what new Python features have been added?

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

The python additions are in the readme (very broad descriptio)

http://poser.smithmicro.com/update_files/Poser-Pro-2012-SR3-Readme.rtf

I was hoping there was some more specific information than that. :lol: What can be done with this new add-on business? What are the new methods for actors, figures, and parameters? Have any of the previously broken features been fixed, or have any previously working features been broken? Are there any new additions which weren't announced, as with previous updates?

I'll get around to loading the SR one of these days.... Not much Poser time recently. :cursing:

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

The key change is the support for 'addons'.

An addon acts very much like any other palette in the Poser UI: its position and status (shown/not shown) is remembered automatically between sessions and can be docked like the UI palettes.

There is a convenient method of saving settings too, with the saved settings being made available to the addon when it is next run.

There are a whole load of notifications the addon can subscribe to, which provide similar functionality to the EventCallback already available. While I haven't tested it yet, one can only hope it will be more stable than the EventCallback alternative (it can hardly be any less stable).

Perhaps the 'biggie' is that addons can choose to save their own data with scene when it is saved. This is easy to do and pretty much transparent to the programmer: you just have to provide a dictionary of data when Poser tells you the scene needs to be saved, and you get that dictionary given to you when the scene is opened.

It's all useful stuff, but some people have got the idea that it has opened up Poser to a world of new plugins. That isn't the case - it's a few useful features that make life a bit easier and a bit simpler, both for the programmer and the user, but ultimately it doesn't really provide much that you couldn't have done before, albeit in a clumsier way.

There ya go!

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Poser doesn't work with a high mesh load like Zbrush probably does. And for the 32 bit ppl with little ram it's probably gonna bring their machines to a halt if they go past more than one subdivision.

Laurie

Quote - I was hoping there was some more specific information than that. :lol: What can be done with this new add-on business? What are the new methods for actors, figures, and parameters? Have any of the previously broken features been fixed, or have any previously working features been broken? Are there any new additions which weren't announced, as with previous updates?

I'll get around to loading the SR one of these days.... Not much Poser time recently. :cursing:

I have not found a list with changes. The manual has been updated however. Maybe just download the manual and see if there are any interesting additions for you and it will give some detail on how the addon interface works.

Well, so far in this thread we've established that if you smooth the mesh some of the details get smoothed, that if you use an already subdivided mesh you don't need a script to subdivide it and that if models were made better in the first place you wouldn't need to fix them ...

These revelations alone make the thread worthwhile :-D

At least I can rest easy now knowing our Steph no longer needs to be so embarrassed about her nobbly knees when Posing in public :-)

LOL, just joking :-D

What shall we talk about now?

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Sir, you are completely correct.

i use genesis with your Scenefixer script setting all groups crease angles to 180.

genesis ears?
Nah, that is a modeling error. That can only be fixed with a good morph.
Smoothing or SubD softens the errors out, but does not repair the ear.
Only a morph will and can.

Nothing to do with more or less poly's either.
They are just not well made.

i did not even bother to color all the error poly's.

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Quote - Sir, you are completely correct.

i use genesis with your Scenefixer script setting all groups crease angles to 180.

genesis ears?
Nah, that is a modeling error. That can only be fixed with a good morph.
Smoothing or SubD softens the errors out, but does not repair the ear.
Only a morph will and can.

Nothing to do with more or less poly's either.
They are just not well made.

i did not even bother to color all the error poly's.

Actually, SubD should make that ear look better. Poser's smoothing never would.

Laurie

Blimey, they do look awful in that screenshot ...

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That is how they are.
Exported and shown "as is".

Sorry LaurieA,
with all respect, none of them can fix that.
unless you start SubD to extreme levels.

The ear is wrong.
Bad build.
See where some of the vertex are??? Brrrrrrrrr................

In and out of each other???
Cross overs????
WHAW.... Click to enlarge and study.....

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They aren't crossing over...they're going around bends and folds...lol.

Laurie

Ha-ha-ha-,
Next you are gonna say they are not errors but a features :-)

I count at lots of features ........

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Quote - That is how they are.
Exported and shown "as is".

Sorry LaurieA,
with all respect, none of them can fix that.
unless you start SubD to extreme levels.

The ear is wrong.
Bad build.
See where some of the vertex are??? Brrrrrrrrr................

In and out of each other???
Cross overs????
WHAW.... Click to enlarge and study.....

Like Bagginsbill tried to explain yesterday, this is the subd cage. Not the mesh... your analysis is moot because you're treating the cage like it's the mesh... it isn't the mesh.... the exporter really only exported a cr2 of all the cages because it really wasn't meant as a final solution for the masses... that's why only people proficient with scripts and smoothing really can do anything with it.

Ear before subdivision

Ear after

Pretty clear that is a cage

My problem with the term "cage" is that any mesh can be a "cage". It's not an excuse for a sloppy base.

With that in mind and looking at these renders, I really don't see what the problem is with the ear, vilters. Sure it's a little blocky at some angles but that's to be expected in a very low res mesh (I'm guessing the head is less than or around 2500 polys?). After subdivision it looks fine. Soooo...back on topic...any other tests, Snarly or are you calling it a day?

Guys, I'm not going to be around for a day or two.

Why not have a go with the script yourselves and post some results here?

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Quote - Guys, I'm not going to be around for a day or two.

Why not have a go with the script yourselves and post some results here?

Download page

Thanks Snarly :)

Laurie

Quote - Ear after

Pretty clear that is a cage

Yea, it still does have problems. But it IS improved. LOL

Laurie

Quote - I've been following the thread about Genesis in Poser, and the idea of implementing subdivision in Poser got my attention. I've been playing a bit with it today, to see what can be done.

Here one of the hands has been subdivided. It makes quite a difference.

Quote - Ear after

Pretty clear that is a cage

And that is a pretty big improvement.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Sunday I"ll cage me another ear in that morph.
Or should that be: I"ll morph me anoter ear in that cage. :-)

Never mind, => I call my "dog" a "cat" too.
Well, it is the only mouse in the house that has 4 legs and looks like a hamster.

Be it what it wants to be : This is a sloppy ear and needs to be corected.

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FFS, The Genesis mesh was designed to use CC-SubD. Therefor the morph does not have to be damn perfect. Create a morph for Genesis in Zbrush. You do some ugly distortions but realize that it must be done to get an effect with CC sub-D. Take a look at how ugly my head roll morph looks in Zbrush. BUT I knew what it would look like with CC-Sub-D hense why it was created that way. Getting Genesis into poser was an after thought. Daz specifically pointed out the issues you will experience without a CC-Sub-D system.

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Just for those who have difficulty understanding: A cage is a 'mesh' of which the verrtices (usually called 'nodes') are attraction points, not surface definition points. Compare it with the positions of magnets when you try to pull a flat surface into a shape using a grid of magnets covering a certain local part of the mesh. So, if you want to model a local hump, you have to pull the magnet governing the spot far out, so, if you represent the magnet positions as a mesh, it will show a local peak.

We are therefore looking not at a geometry definition, but at raw data that is intended to be used in a specific process to make a geometric definition. That this raw data very much looks like a geometric definition and in face can be represented as one if you take the node positions as vertex positions and take the cells between the nodes as polygons, can be convenient in some cases. The cage, so represented, even looks very much like the final geometry.

Catmull-Clark subdivision (or rather interpretation of a mesh as a cage and generation of a new geometry from this cage) causes drift of the definition. The new geometry is not where the original vertices were. Look at the famous example of a cube transforming into a sphere:(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catmull%E2%80%93Clark_subdivision_surface) The corner points of the original box are not on the surface of the sphere. There are ways to fix this, of course, but those are to my knowledge not applied in DS.

For that reason this type of smoothing can not generally be used for any purpose where accurate interplation of the surface trough the definition points (which may be results of measurements) is required.

The drift of the definition (or the distance between the smoothed surface and the original definition point) is proportional to the ratio of the distance between the nodes of the cage and the average radius of curvature. A ring defined with a coarse cage may disappear into a finger defined by a fine cage.

Also note that when a surface is subdivided it loses detail. The only information used is the XYZ position of the nodes. Even the information in the normals is not used. Depending on the distribution of distances and angles between the 'edges' of the definition grid, local exitation can occur and, yes, when used in a cunning way, this can be used to some extent to simulate detail.

See the difference?

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Quote - Just for those who have difficulty understanding: A cage is a 'mesh' of which the verrtices (usually called 'nodes') are attraction points, not surface definition points. Compare it with the positions of magnets when you try to pull a flat surface into a shape using a grid of magnets covering a certain local part of the mesh. So, if you want to model a local hump, you have to pull the magnet governing the spot far out, so, if you represent the magnet positions as a mesh, it will show a local peak.

We are therefore looking not at a geometry definition, but at raw data that is intended to be used in a specific process to make a geometric definition. That this raw data very much looks like a geometric definition and in face can be represented as one if you take the node positions as vertex positions and take the cells between the nodes as polygons, can be convenient in some cases. The cage, so represented, even looks very much like the final geometry.

Catmull-Clark subdivision (or rather interpretation of a mesh as a cage and generation of a new geometry from this cage) causes drift of the definition. The new geometry is not where the original vertices were. Look at the famous example of a cube transforming into a sphere:(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catmull%E2%80%93Clark_subdivision_surface) The corner points of the original box are not on the surface of the sphere. There are ways to fix this, of course, but those are to my knowledge not applied in DS.

For that reason this type of smoothing can not generally be used for any purpose where accurate interplation of the surface trough the definition points (which may be results of measurements) is required.

The drift of the definition (or the distance between the smoothed surface and the original definition point) is proportional to the ratio of the distance between the nodes of the cage and the average radius of curvature. A ring defined with a coarse cage may disappear into a finger defined by a fine cage.

Also note that when a surface is subdivided it loses detail. The only information used is the XYZ position of the nodes. Even the information in the normals is not used. Depending on the distribution of distances and angles between the 'edges' of the definition grid, local exitation can occur and, yes, when used in a cunning way, this can be used to some extent to simulate detail.

I think that most of the misunderstanding comes from the fact that the "cage" is the thing being exported to poser. If it had been een single subdivided mesh, it would have looked better and this misunderstanding would not have happened.
If they have done this deliberately, I don't understand the rationale behind it and the instruction to specifically choose the "high definition" mesh is a complete mystery if the base mesh/cage is exported

I think most of the poser users who were interested in genesis gave up after they saw the ears

If it was sub-divided at least by one level then it would be fine. Have a look at the ears. Second is with one Sub division. With a bit of poser smoothing you should get decent results.

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IF DS exports the cage to Poser?

You are right : "quote " It would not have to be "damm perfect". "unquote"

It probably was made with that exact same mentality.
Quality control was out of town.
And beta testers on vacation.

What a mess.

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Interesting addon Snarly!

If you added group retention to the mesh code, you could easily just spawn a new character using very similar code.

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Quote - IF DS exports the cage to Poser?

You are right : "quote " It would not have to be "damm perfect". "unquote"

It probably was made with that exact same mentality.
Quality control was out of town.
And beta testers on vacation.

What a mess.

Look. It works great in Daz like its supposed to. That is how it was designed. I'm sure they didnt develope the mesh at the time wondering how it would look in poser. If that was the case, Genesis would not be so low poly and you would have a better sub-d cage. But because its designed to use CC sub-D, That low poly count is perfectly fine.

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Yes,I gave up mainly because of the ears. they were kind of the last straw. but this looks promising.

Love esther

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Quote - > Quote - IF DS exports the cage to Poser?

You are right : "quote " It would not have to be "damm perfect". "unquote"

It probably was made with that exact same mentality.
Quality control was out of town.
And beta testers on vacation.

What a mess.

Look. It works great in Daz like its supposed to. That is how it was designed. I'm sure they didnt develope the mesh at the time wondering how it would look in poser. If that was the case, Genesis would not be so low poly and you would have a better sub-d cage. But because its designed to use CC sub-D, That low poly count is perfectly fine.

No, they did not design the morphs to look good in Poser. But they did not even bother to look at the exported mesh in Poser when they released the exporter - that worries me. If so, they would have seen that the wrong mesh was being exported.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - IF DS exports the cage to Poser?

You are right : "quote " It would not have to be "damm perfect". "unquote"

It probably was made with that exact same mentality.
Quality control was out of town.
And beta testers on vacation.

What a mess.

Look. It works great in Daz like its supposed to. That is how it was designed. I'm sure they didnt develope the mesh at the time wondering how it would look in poser. If that was the case, Genesis would not be so low poly and you would have a better sub-d cage. But because its designed to use CC sub-D, That low poly count is perfectly fine.

No, they did not design the morphs to look good in Poser. But they did not even bother to look at the exported mesh in Poser when they released the exporter - that worries me. If so, they would have seen that the wrong mesh was being exported.

Very True. Maybe it will be resolved or maybe not. Time will tell. There could be a reason it only exports at the base. Daz has the answers. I'll actually ask.

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I started a thread.

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/6414/

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No need to do that... remember, Genesis is a system for creating characters, not a standalone character. Since Poser does not support the dsf file format, those cages were exported in a cr2... however, as DAZ has stated, you still need to subdivide the cages to get the same look. You are dealing with the same cages as DS does, however how those cages are handled are different, since there was no facility for subdividing those cages in Poser.

The exporter is not designed to be a standalone solution. It was a alternate solution to get the cages in poser.

I must be missing something. How do you get this script tp work? I ran it, but nothing happened. I do have sr3 so that's not it. Any suggestions?

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If you have installed it according to the filestructure in the zip, it is in the meny Window!Addons

Once started, select a bodypart of the figure you want to subdivide and press the subdivide button. Wait a few seconds and render

You might see nothing in the preview because it makes an identical copy of the figure and hides the original

Sorry to interrupt, but I'm curious about something Laurie said.

Quote - It's not made for V3 or V4...why the heck would ya wanna subdivide something that's smooth enough? Only really low rez stuff you'd wanna subdivide...

Laurie

If you could just subdivide V4's armpits (the "collar" in V4's terminology), would that improve the funny creases you get there when the arms are down? I know about V4-WM and all the fixes, I'm trying them all, but it seems to me something is still off there even after the fixes are applied. I wonder if this might help V4 in that regard.

Thanks

I'm hardly surprised, usual suspects, usual pissing contests. can we stop fighting over daz and genesis long enough to stay on the topic of subdivision and poser.. as is the topic of the thread. I get that genesis naturally plays into this discussion, but neither its quality as a mesh or cage or whatever we want to call it, nor daz's intentions in regards to it do. The only mention of genesis that really belongs in this thread is how Snarlys cool new gift to the community affects the use of genesis in poser and what limits there may or may not be to its application.

Snarly- as I have said- you are without a doubt the Epitome of what a Snarly should be-and no doubt the Gribbliest of ALL Snarlies! Thanks again for something fantastic!

Wimvdb: thanks for the examples- I'm with Esther-all my DS to Poser Genesis exports came to a screeching halt over the ears-CC subD in Poser- wow!

Cage- good to see your presence once more!!

In my thread somebody said this

All the morphs are made from the base mesh. The exporter would have to be able export out not only the sub-d mesh but all the morph deltas sub-d without changing vertex order.

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Quote - In my thread somebody said this

All the morphs are made from the base mesh. The exporter would have to be able export out not only the sub-d mesh but all the morph deltas sub-d without changing vertex order.

That would be one solution, but it would require further action from DAZ which will not bring them much return; It would mean unleashing their Genesis figure in Poser and there would be no need for Poser users to ever start their DS front-end again.

Note that with every subdividision step in the mesh, the number of vertex deltas and weights for Weight-mapped joints rises exponentially, and if you copy this rise again in the deltas and weights you end up with a memory hog. The rough low-res mesh+subdivision approach was necessary to keep memory requirements within limits. The consumer type user is DS (and Poser) bread and butter.

The cunning route Snarly has now so kindly opened for us of course permits to work like DS does: subdivide only just before you render. If the script is appended with commands to kick start the renderer and upon completion delete the subdivided mesh and turn the figure visible again, you would have the transparant one-click solution.

There is one issue of course, and that is connection. As said, there is not only the number of vertices, but subdivision causes drift in the geometry description. The original vertices are moved. So, if you subd one object, say the head, the geometry will no longer fit at the neck. So, you have to choose one single single mesh to maintain the connections.

Let me exsplain ,you would render the millions polycount V4 in zBrush ,even on a home PC.

The app's Poser Pro is a plug for all have SubD.

V3 was modeled in Lightwave.
V4 was model in Modo.
V5 was modeled in Modo.

For there time and there porpose there are no better.

The creators of Vicky are the Leonardo Da Vinci ,Michelangelo of CGI Charactors.

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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The memory issue is not with render but with posing/preview. Why waste resources when you do not need them? Users of the apps you mention usually have something more than a home PC to work on.

Quote - In my thread somebody said this

All the morphs are made from the base mesh. The exporter would have to be able export out not only the sub-d mesh but all the morph deltas sub-d without changing vertex order.

Colorcurvatures's subdivision script subdivided morphs. Unfortunately, it doesn't work on weightmapped figures because the weight maps need to be subdivided as well...

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Quote - The cunning route Snarly has now so kindly opened for us of course permits to work like DS does: subdivide only just before you render. If the script is appended with commands to kick start the renderer and upon completion delete the subdivided mesh and turn the figure visible again, you would have the transparant one-click solution.

Strictly, DS applies a low level (once or twice usually) to the viewport, but the real SubD is applied at rendertime by 3Delight (like Poser's polygon smoothing in Firefly, as far as I know) - how far that rendertime SubD goes depends on the render settings. But as you say, SubDing the final shape as late as possible does reduce the system load - though presumably this is, for now, practical for still-images only.

[Commentary on deleted posts removed by moderator]

..............................

I have been playing around with it, and it works very well on characters. Some of the hair props I tried freaked out, but no biggy there. I suspect there is a mesh issue in the hair that freaked out.

You can add tons of detail to the prop it creates with the Morph Brush. With selectable levels you could add all the detail you ever wanted to it.

If it retained grouping info you could make it a character rather easily with it. There really would not be a need to have all the morphs in it, but that is doable as well.

Creating a super high poly character is not the best option if your system can not work with it thou. Buy if you are using a low poly character and subdividing it to about the normal poly count of another character, it could be worth saving it as new character.

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Just an fyi. If you leave a part hidden, it does not get included in the subdivition or the prop that results.

You can also, if you want, turn the person back into a figure easily in the setup room. just load the figure again and allow for autogrouping. It will break the morphs but you can then repose so you can use this for animations too.

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Quote - Guys, I'm not going to be around for a day or two.

Why not have a go with the script yourselves and post some results here?

Download page

Awesome. Just caught this thread. Snarlygribbly that's impressive stuff! :thumbupboth:

After I'd posted the questions I'd had about subd, on the Daz forum and I think in a thread or two here... and Laurie had told me UVs should generally be okay.. I've been playing around a bit with the idea of a Genesis in Poser workflow that just used Hexagon's subd, and a manual import / export of the obj.

I'd started experimenting subd'ing just key body parts etc. It kind of worked, per the discusions in this thread so far, I guess. Didn't get very far with it... I was planning to try the idea out using ZBrush / GoZ, now I've got that.

I'll give this a shot and see how it goes...

...regardless of its application to Genesis, I suspect this could just be a great utlility to have handy in Poser.

Cheers :biggrin:

Quote - ...You can also, if you want, turn the person back into a figure easily in the setup room. just load the figure again and allow for autogrouping...

Autogrouping has majorly improved in the last few releases, but internal things like the eyes and tongue usually never group right with the auto group. The hands/fingers can get torn to pieces as well. This makes animating the autogrouped character next to impossible if the grouping tears the mesh when you pose it. I do almost all of my grouping in Blender, working with Poser stuff in Blender has improved as well.

I have yet to find an easy solution for transfering the morphs from the original character to a subdivided or modified mesh.

.................

Now that we have some more Python commands to work with, addons can be made that only use Python as the gateway to and from Poser, and the addon can be an executable. Doing it that way will make anything you do worlds faster than using Python alone.

I am sure that we will see more than a few addons that use Python strictly as the gateway, and a executable capable of using the cpu/gpu for the rest of it.

Anything done to a wireframe will be far faster when done on the gpu on the average Poser users system. With Pixars release of much of the source code to do that, things could get very interesting in terms of what Poser can do with addons.

I am not sure what other programming languages Snarly uses. If he uses C++ or Fortran, things could get very interesting indeed.

If anyone is interested in newest ideas for C++ or Fortran, search "Many Integrated Core Architecture" on Intels site. None of it applies to desktop computers, so tread lightly there. Most of that is for very high end systems, that we cannot buy yet.... (Knights Corner stuff that has not been released, etc) But is is good reading if you are interested in what is coming next in terms of raw processing power.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

My apologies if this has already been discussed as I only read about 1/3 of the whole thread...

While "better smoothing" is a worthy goal, isn't the hidden benefit the fact that intense subdivision where you want it gives you the ability to go in with the MorphBrushTool and sculpt in fine detail?

For instance, around the eyes. One hindrance to getting complexity around the eyes is: not enough polys to move around. With massive subdivision in a small area, you could than work up very fine detail, asymmetry and complex folding.

While exporting the head and subdividing, then re-importing (I use MeshLab) is a pipeline, having both the subdivision and sculpt tool inside Poser is a very welcome prospect.

I echo the various shout outs to Snarly for this effort and his steadfast belief that there is no such thing as a final "can't".

Quote - My apologies if this has already been discussed as I only read about 1/3 of the whole thread...

While "better smoothing" is a worthy goal, isn't the hidden benefit the fact that intense subdivision where you want it gives you the ability to go in with the MorphBrushTool and sculpt in fine detail?

For instance, around the eyes. One hindrance to getting complexity around the eyes is: not enough polys to move around. With massive subdivision in a small area, you could than work up very fine detail, asymmetry and complex folding.

While exporting the head and subdividing, then re-importing (I use MeshLab) is a pipeline, having both the subdivision and sculpt tool inside Poser is a very welcome prospect.

I echo the various shout outs to Snarly for this effort and his steadfast belief that there is no such thing as a final "can't".

Sounds like your kinda talking about what thay call micro displacment maps.

I make them in zBrush.

I would think other app's can make them now.

Mudd ,Blender ,C4D probably can make them ,I'm not sure thou never tryed with them.

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Quote - If you have installed it according to the filestructure in the zip, it is in the meny Window!Addons

Once started, select a bodypart of the figure you want to subdivide and press the subdivide button. Wait a few seconds and render

You might see nothing in the preview because it makes an identical copy of the figure and hides the original

Would you mind taking a screenshot of this Subdivide button? As when I run the script it just shows the credit pop-up, then nothing seems to change on the interface.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

Here is what you are looking for. It may show up as a different size. I resized mine and put it there. Don't run the script as a python script like you would ezskin or something. look under the window menu and at the bottom you'll see addons and it should be under there. If you tried to run it as a python script you might need to restart poser to get it to work right.

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Check out my store here or my free stuff here
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RorrKonn re: outside displacement maps etc.

Why go outside when the weather inside is wonderful, custom subdivide+PoserMorphBrushTool?

On another note, I hope we see Carodan wandering thru Poser with these new tools soon.

Thank you for the screenshot RedPhantom. I wasn't getting that window, had to go change another python script to allow it to show up. Working perfectly now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

Quote - The cunning route Snarly has now so kindly opened for us of course permits to work like DS does: subdivide only just before you render. If the script is appended with commands to kick start the renderer and upon completion delete the subdivided mesh and turn the figure visible again, you would have the transparant one-click solution.

This was, in fact, my original intention.

My source code is still saved as 'ccrender.py', meaning Catmull-Clark Render.

I have a few other priorities right now, but you can expect to see this eventually.

Free stuff @ https://poser.cobrablade.net/

Snarlygribbly - excellent! this looks like a really great step forward :D

Cheers,

Cliff

I get this error message when I try to run the script.

P.S. I know my sig says SR2, but I'm running SR3 now.

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Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Quote - I get this error message when I try to run the script.

P.S. I know my sig says SR2, but I'm running SR3 now.

That appears to be a different script altogether ...

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Hmm, okay. I'll redownload.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Okay, installed the wrong thing. Have the right thing installed now. Can't get it to run.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Quote - Okay, installed the wrong thing. Have the right thing installed now. Can't get it to run.

You don't run it, as such. At least, not in the way you would normally run a script.
You select it from the 'addons' menu, and Poser will then run it for you.

It will appear in Poser's Window/Addons menu if you have unzipped the files in the zip to any linked runtime, keeping the folder structure intact.

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Quote - This was, in fact, my original intention.

My source code is still saved as 'ccrender.py', meaning Catmull-Clark Render.

I have a few other priorities right now, but you can expect to see this eventually.

Please don't laugh at the hair, it was a test! lol

On the left the original lowpoly strandbased transmapped hair; on the right subd'd with snarlys script.

The overall kinks are out and the roots are so much better.

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wait....is this Poser HairRoomstrand hair, or a prop?

A modelled prop. :)

This is the original lowpolywire with plane strands.

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wow. subdivide prop transmaped hair and get good results. cool.

I updated the addon: v1.1 allows up to three levels of subdivision and works on props too, without the need for them to be parented to anything.

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Snarly, i clicked everywhere attempting to register for your forum, can't find how.

http://www.snarlygribbly.org/3d/forum/

Quote - Snarly, i clicked everywhere attempting to register for your forum, can't find how.

Due to constant spam attacks I have had to disable registrations.

No registration is needed for downloads though :-)

** I've just re-enabled registrations for ya **

I'll leave them enabled for the rest of the evening, then switch 'em off again.

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mission accomplished, registered.

also downloaded v1.1

thanks!

so say I have 5 genesis people in my scene can I select all of them to subdivide in one hit, or do I have to do them one at a time?

and presumably the morphs dont work once they have been subdivided?

Love esther

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I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

You presume correctly, morphs do not work after subdivision. As Snarly states, do and finalize all your morphs and poses before applying the script.

Wow snarly, i just tried the script on a scene with a M5 in it, and I didn't need to use smoothing at render at all. His ear looks just fine. Amazing! thankyou so much. this is awesome work!!!!

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I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

just normal render settings ie no extra smothing

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

would it be possible to have a M5. make the character you want, and then subdivide him using the snarly script, and then copy the rigging from the original M5 into the high rez M5?

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

Something went wrong with the eyes there.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

will check the eyes in a sec.

Wow, look at lorettalorez!

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Quote - would it be possible to have a M5. make the character you want, and then subdivide him using the snarly script, and then copy the rigging from the original M5 into the high rez M5?

Love esther

It is possible but you will break any morphs and as shvrdavid pointed out the eyes and fingers may not come back correctly.

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Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
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yes, there is something a little odd with his eyes??

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

what would be really cool would be if you could click send to queue and just keep working in poser, and in the meantime teh render queue scene could have all the things close to the camera subdivided automatically, then undsubdivided at the end in case one wants to change a pose or something.

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

when i unsubdivided the eye thing persisted. it must be in the texture.

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there is a corneal reflection map and one on the sclera.

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So this looks really good for smoothing out a lower res model. Now how about a model like antonia who takes a bit of a hit for being too low res to sculpt 'GND style' . Does this aid in that at all? I've seen some genesis renders that looked like they had some decent sculpting, is that done the same way on the low res 'cage' and then subdivided to look smooth? Is there more to it than that for genesis?

I wonder how a prop would look as dynamic clothes after subdivision and then clothifying and simulating.

Love esther

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Quote - will check the eyes in a sec.

Wow, look at lorettalorez!

Wow is right! How big did she get after the script was run (polly count)?

how do u find the polycount out?

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but anyway it doesn't matter becaause you can't morph or change face expressions etc. none of the dials work. so you just make your scene, pose all your low rez people then subdivide then render then undo the subdivision.

Love esther

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Got it.

Quote - I wonder how a prop would look as dynamic clothes after subdivision and then clothifying and simulating.

Love esther

I was wondering the same, though I was thinking I'd simulate first and subdivide after. Wonder if it would help with those items that show nasty peaks after simulation but which are so low res that moving the polys around with the morph brush to smoothe them feels like pulling eye teeth.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I just tried it on an outift I had already simulated and it did look really really good. Haven't tried it on a prior to simulation outfit as yet.

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

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Quote - I just tried it on an outift I had already simulated and it did look really really good. Haven't tried it on a prior to simulation outfit as yet.

Love esther

I just tried on an outfit I had already simmed. The result was excellent.

I bet it won't be long before I start to count this script as among those that I couldn't do without.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Genesis origanal poly count is around 18 ,872
Every time you SubD you times buy 4

75 ,488

301 ,952 you can subD twice in D/S,
If you want to go higher you need dispacment maps.
As far as I know.

1 ,207 ,808

4 ,831 ,232 about as high as I can go in zBrush with my home PC.

19 ,324 ,982

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Snarlygribby : Can You use 32 bit Vector Displacement Maps with your Script & Poser's render engine ?

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Quote - Snarlygribby : Can You use 32 bit Vector Displacement Maps with your Script & Poser's render engine ?

My understanding is that 32bit displacement maps are not yet supported in Poser. I do not know that for a fact though, so if anyone has an authorative answer do speak up.

Free stuff @ https://poser.cobrablade.net/

As far as I'm aware, we support 8 and 16 bit displacement in Poser currently. Vector displacement is not supported at this time.

I've had a model well over a million polys in Poser without much fuss. It was not a rigged model though and why anyone would ever need that in Poser is beyond me but my point is that Poser can handle it if your machine can.

snarles, could you please make the script so one could shift select the items in the scene one wants to subdivide eg a whole lot of M4 and genesis people sitting around a table., one might only want to select a couple of the genesis people sitting near the camera.

Love esther

PS a great script - shows a ton of promise.

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Snarlygribbly: thank you so much!

I am one of those who like to have their virtual dolls working in both softwares. I like and use DS and Poser ... I don't know why some people have to say that one of them is better than the other.

Please don't let people who just have to write in coloured text stop you helping those that are really thankful.

Vilters, I think if you change the cage mesh you lose all the morphs.

I like this method. work in low poly, and render in high poly at the end. Great idea!

Love esther

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Quote - Vilters, I think if you change the cage mesh you lose all the morphs.

I like this method. work in low poly, and render in high poly at the end. Great idea!

Love esther

Second that, Esther... I think that this [pre-render application of subd] is the most distinct usage case for having access to subd within Poser itself.

Figures like the imported Gen5 mesh aside, its having the utility for certain props that I think it could really come into its own.

I reckon Poser smoothing does some things very well, in this same sort of space, but for certain jobs I reckon subd is the way to go.

I've done it manually with props, just using Hexagon, in the past. But having a quick utility, that can even potentially be further scripted into a macro that subdivides, renders and then undos the subdivision, will be very useful I think!

No Ester dear, you loose nothing.
All morphs work exactly as before.

In Poser, one gets an exported cage as a mesh.
And you can morph / repair as you can any other mesh.

Spend 30 min in Hex using my tutorial and you have perfect ears.

I might use this as an example for my next tutorial. :-)
Then everybody will have perfect Gene ears. :-)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
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hehe, but I want my polys, if the ears look bad, then other parts probably don't look all that good close up either.

Love esther

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Quote - hehe, but I want my polys, if the ears look bad, then other parts probably don't look all that good close up either.

Love esther

Exactly. I think VERY few of use are still working in the computer dark ages where our computers can't handle higher meshes anymore. Low res is great if that's your thing, but it's not most peoples thing. THEY wanna keep with the times. And time marches on...computers are more powerful and they can handle higher meshes quite easily. And I'm sorry vilters but higher res meshes look better in EVERY circumstance. I'd use a low res for a background figure certainly, but never for anything up close where it just does not stand up to close scruitiny.

Laurie

*Quote -*hehe, but I want my polys, if the ears look bad, then other parts probably don't look all that good close up either.

Love esther

Ha-ha-ha- Ester , You probably are right.
Then spend 5 more minutes in Hex to correct those too? ? ? :-)

See? When you do it my way?
All morphs that where present before the procedure continue to work after the procedure.
It is failsafe, easy to do, it just takes a bit of time.
And when you did it once? When you "get" the workflow?
I'ts a piece of cake to do the rest.

OK; I'll take Gene ears for the next tut. :-) Stay tuned.
One of these days :-)

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"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

@ LaurieA => computing power was never a problem here.
And computing power will never be the reason for my drive.

BAD figures and BAD poly distribution, and BAD morphs, and poly pollution ARE.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Looking forward to your tute vilters. I liked the last one for Hex with the Poser morphs ;). As long as I don't have to make low res morphs that is...hahaha.

Laurie

Over at RDNA one person once asked:

What 3D app was used to create **** figure?

The end user should not HAVE to care about that.

He/she gets a mesh in Poser. Period.
If that mesh comes out of Zbruch, Modo, Lightwave, HEX? or Blender?
Or if it is exported from a cage?

We should not HAVE to care where it comes from.
It should be a good figure, with good poly distribution and rigging.

When you get a BAD mesh with terrible poly distribution in Poser?
SubD will only agravate that situation.

Ok, SubD will Smooth things out but it will not make it a cleaner or better mesh.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

It doesn't matter where it came from. Maybe they just wanted to know for their own sense of curiosity ;).

Laurie

zbrush exports exr files in 32 bit

poser reads exr

why do we say poser does not do 32 bit displacement?

answers should follow data acquisition

i have neither time nor zbrush to check this

note: i have no time for opinions about me being rude with short answers. I am typing while on the toilet. now i go back to work. deal with it.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

> Quote - zbrush exports exr files in 32 bit > > poser reads exr > > why do we say poser does not do 32 bit displacement?

For Poser 8: Poser converts its textures to 16 bit exr while reading the textures. These contain samples with 16 bit floating point values, which in turn contain only 10 significant digits, this results in effectively only 10 significant bits of displacement (not even 16). The naming could more exact, though, because 16 bit floating point is not the same as 16 bit linear values.

For the image above, i created a texture containing a 100x100 perlin noise between 0 and 1, offset by a value of 1000, which is just at the limit of the representation of the 10 bits precision, and plugged it into the bump channel. The image on the left is rendered with blender (which supports 32 bit floating point textures), it looks like one would expect. The image on the right is from Poser 8, the texture is basically gone. You can recognize an overall noise added to the image, as well in the lower left an artifact, where the texture caching process probably switched from one value to the next.

This only applies to image textures, of course, in general Poser supports many more bits for displacement (when using procedural textures) i do not know how many. Also Poser 9 might do it differently.

Quote - We should not HAVE to care where it comes from.
It should be a good figure, with good poly distribution and rigging.

When you get a BAD mesh with terrible poly distribution in Poser?
SubD will only agravate that situation.

Ok, SubD will Smooth things out but it will not make it a cleaner or better mesh.

But when a cleaner or better mesh doesn't look any better, why should I care?

I use Poser to make rendered images. I don't use it to make pretty wireframes.

Your tutorial is deeply appreciated, and were I able to get Hexagon to run on my machine without crashing, I might consider trying it. I'm sure others will find it quite valuable.

But when a single script in Poser can accomplish, from a visual standpoint, all that is necessary to make a rendered image look acceptable, it's silly to spend the time doing more.

You're interested in eliminating poly pollution. I'm interested in eliminating time pollution.

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Quote - For the image above, i created a texture containing a 100x100 perlin noise between 0 and 1, offset by a value of 1000, which is just at the limit of the representation of the 10 bits precision, and plugged it into the bump channel. The image on the left is rendered with blender (which supports 32 bit floating point textures), it looks like one would expect. The image on the right is from Poser 8, the texture is basically gone. You can recognize an overall noise added to the image, as well in the lower left an artifact, where the texture caching process probably switched from one value to the next.

Aha. Now that is good data acquisition.

I just confirmed it with PP2012. The EXR file I saved was 1000 + Spots_Node.

Loading that back and attempting to render EXR - 1000, I see a quantized version of the original spots pattern.

I'm tired of this sort of silliness in Firefly. Sigh.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - > Quote - For the image above, i created a texture containing a 100x100 perlin noise between 0 and 1, offset by a value of 1000, which is just at the limit of the representation of the 10 bits precision, and plugged it into the bump channel. The image on the left is rendered with blender (which supports 32 bit floating point textures), it looks like one would expect. The image on the right is from Poser 8, the texture is basically gone. You can recognize an overall noise added to the image, as well in the lower left an artifact, where the texture caching process probably switched from one value to the next.

Aha. Now that is good data acquisition.

I just confirmed it with PP2012. The EXR file I saved was 1000 + Spots_Node.

Loading that back and attempting to render EXR - 1000, I see a quantized version of the original spots pattern.

I'm tired of this sort of silliness in Firefly. Sigh.

Dang it - had to look at this some more. The file I saved from Poser - it was 16-bit float - the "half" float format.

So, it's no wonder it came up short. Poser doesn't let me say what I want it to store.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - As far as I'm aware, we support 8 and 16 bit displacement in Poser currently. Vector displacement is not supported at this time.

I've had a model well over a million polys in Poser without much fuss. It was not a rigged model though and why anyone would ever need that in Poser is beyond me but my point is that Poser can handle it if your machine can.

If you check out zBrush gallery ,thats why I need hi poly count meshes in D/S ,Poser.

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Well JP, in all fairness, the script does the subdivision right before render time and can be undone. So it's a non-issue. We realize the problem with some figures (trust me), but this thread isn't about that ;).

Laurie

Back on topic:

#Subdivision is useful, but only if the mesh was designed for it. Not much sense in subdividing a 150.000 polygon mesh.

#It needs to be fully automated like in Studio. Otherwise most average users won't use it.

#It needs to be fully accessible for morphs. That's the one big weakness of Genesis: You can't morph the SubD 1 or SubD 2 meshes, just the cage, so joint fixes for example become guesswork. (Which is fine for animation, but not high resolution still renders)

The last point is why I still prefer hi-res meshes, although a subdivided lo-res mesh is more practical inmost other aspects.

That's all the feedback I can think of right now.

[End of edited thread]

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Subdivision in Poser