Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

I tend to disagree slightly with you there Wolf, I actually think what has happened is that the advances in the software have left some of us behind, playing catch up, therefore in many instances the divide is getting greater between some pros and some hobbyists.

and as a matter of interest, my definition of a Pro is someone who gets paid for producing anything and as such is probably open to a higher level of scrutiny than any amateur hobbyist, poor things.......And finally, i don't think that the mentality you mention is the issue for people having their feelings hurt, I think in many cases it is the tone of the critique poster and very often, I regret to say, the forum history of the critic in question......

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Quote - ....And finally, i don't think that the mentality you mention is the issue for people having their feelings hurt, I think in many cases it is the tone of the critique poster and very often, I regret to say, the forum history of the critic in question......

Amen, amen, and amen!

Somewhat on the line of what Wolfie said, but:

I spent 44 years in the metalworling trades, and the knowledge and experiences I had go far beyond what most of the people working in factories or job shops have. I was given the opportunity to learn the metalworking end well enough to work as s tool and diemaker, toolroom machinist, and probably the most challenging, gage technician, where it was a complete rethink of everything. The machinist or machine operator on a factory floor works in thousandths of an inch, I had to learn to work in millionths of an inch. Whoopie.

But! There were many times when work came into the shop, the last one I worked in, that were something a customer thought he wanted, then found it would be so expensive to do that it wasn't really practical. Many times I offered to take the job in my own small shop, I have a fairly complete machining setup in my basement.

And very strange that a lot of the customers, that were asking me to do this work in the commercial shop "I don't know that you could do it", as if the boss had to be there to direct what I would be doing. Considering that the boss most often called on me to figure out how to do some of the more complicated things, attitude is suggested. Same work, just the machines that would be doing the physical work would change, but at home, I'm not a professional, and in the shop I am?

As Wolfie sugests, that may be the difference, the perception that a hobbyist isn't as proficient as a professional, even though they may be one and the same.

As far as nitpicking the software, that will happen. Equating software to my instruments, it's not what you have, it's how you apply the capabilities that counts. Big money doesn't automatically equate to quality work. I know people that could produce junk on some of the most expensive machines ever built, and I've seen some pretty poor work come from high end softwares as well as excellent work coming from freeware.

Professional means you do things for money, hobbyist means you do what you like or have an interest in.

D.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

Quote - I tend to disagree slightly with you there Wolf, I actually think what has happened is that the advances in the software have left some of us behind, playing catch up, therefore in many instances the divide is getting greater between some pros and some hobbyists.

and as a matter of interest, my definition of a Pro is someone who gets paid for producing anything and as such is probably open to a higher level of scrutiny than any amateur hobbyist, poor things.......And finally, i don't think that the mentality you mention is the issue for people having their feelings hurt, I think in many cases it is the tone of the critique poster and very often, I regret to say, the forum history of the critic in question......

Well said, Mr B.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

Let us not forget that many of the professionals at one time was a hobbyist. There are no exact line between the two. I like the term serious better. You are serious in your work, you are serious of your hobby. Before I made very good money in the software construction business, but before that I was a 'hobbyist' programmer for three years. A hobbyist that worked 60 hours a week and often more, a hobbyist that was more serious than many professionals. So let us have no prejudices. If you have a hobby, why not take it seriously?

Quote -
Well said, Mr B.

It was actually mysticeagle. I quoted HIM.

wizzy, i am mr B :) actually so is Sam :)

and vintorix, i wasn't implying that hobbyists couldn't be or weren't serious, i was only stating my view of the paid difference between an pro and an am. A few years ago you couldn't compete in the Olympics if you had been sponsored or paid for a race or a win, it was purely for amateurs, but things change. I make nothing financially from what i do, therefore I consider myself an amateur. If I were paid for one project how would I view myself? A very poor pro :) or an amateur that had been paid for a project? lol.

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5 64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
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"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

Quote - wizzy, i am mr B :) actually so is Sam :)

Sorry, just trying to give credit where credit was due!

Quote - > Quote - wizzy, i am mr B :) actually so is Sam :)

Sorry, just trying to give credit where credit was due!

Perhaps I should clarify. We're distant cousins and have the same family name. Yes, really.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

Quote - If I were paid for one project how would I view myself? A very poor pro :) or an amateur that had been paid for a project? lol.

Being a professional is more than just being paid for your efforts - it's making your living from it.

Lots of amateurs and hobbyists make the odd dollar here and there from their endeavours. But your profession is your livelihood, and only when you make your living from an activity can you truly call yourself a professional. As others have said though: that doesn't necessarily make you more skilled than an amateur.

I'm a professional photographer. I make a living from it.

It's quite likely that I'll be giving that up to do something else soon, because I'm fickle and want to try other things. If I do move on to something else, I'll no longer consider myself a professional photographer - just an amateur. I will, however, still have all the skills I had when I was a pro :-)

Free stuff @ https://poser.cobrablade.net/

mysticeagle, "I make nothing financially from what i do, therefore I consider myself an amateur"

Neither do I (make anything financially from CG). But I don't consider myself an amateur because sooner or later I will get paid for it. And even if that unlikely happens, that I never get paid so what? I still have had a very good time. Either way, I win. Allow me to introduce a new term, "advanced hobbyist".

;)

Gentlemen you make for a persuasive argument on the definition of a Pro..

In fact so persuasive I think I am swayed, verily do i swoon .

I am now going to redefine myself as an unpaid hobbying professional with amateur aspirations...It sounds so much better :)

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5 64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

"Gentlemen you make for a persuasive argument on the definition of a Pro..

In fact so persuasive I think I am swayed, verily do i swoon .

I am now going to redefine myself as an unpaid hobbying professional with amateur aspirations...It sounds so much better :) "

LOLOLOLOLOL...thanks so much for that :)

This is how I define this bit:

Pro = Someone who is in it for the money. Whether they make quality or crap is not the issue. Of course, the better the product, the better it sells, but, to me, a Pro wants to pay the bills and maybe buy some food with the money made from this kind of business. Time on project v cost per time really does not factor into it, since the Pro is looking at the annual income and not the time card - the more time spent up front perfecting a skill would balance with the number of quality products on the market by year's end.

Hobbyist = Someone who is in it for the fun. Again, whether they make quality or crap is not the issue, since only some of it will be seen by others. If they sell enough stuff to pay for the hobby, good for them, but these people would think of "that much money" as something nice to get eventually but are not actively striving for that as a specific goal.

Student = Someone who is in it for the knowledge. Once again, whether they make quality or crap is not the issue, since most of their stuff will never be seen by anyone, even family. These people would be in it for the experience; some will become hobbyists, some will (try to) become Pros, and some will decide it is simply not their kind of thing after all and just leave.

(Insert naughty word here) = Someone who is in it for the glory. All they make is crap and get pissy when people leave comments. These people want to be well respected Pros, have their masterful tutorials lauded by everyone, and make more money than Billy Gates. Too bad they never listen, do not read or watch existing how-to threads and tutorials, and generally refuse to put in the effort but demand the rewards.

mysticeagle, "I am now going to redefine myself .."

Now you have my respect! Its all in the mind. Of course it is safer to call yourself a hobbyist with no ambitions whatsoever. In that case no one can mistakenly take you for someone who thinks he is something.

Vintorix :) i think the chances of me being mistaken for one of those is highly unlikely :)

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5 64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

Quote -

(Mysticeagle's post)

Speechless? In a forum? Wow. :D

Hmmm, not sure about this on, especially when you compare what the meaning of a hobbist and a pro are, in regards to talent. Either way, I give cuddo's to both groups because both can take hard work and persistance.

Quote - I don't really understand why labels are important.

They are not important to me when speaking of a person except to understand their motivation, as I defined them (for myself) above.

Quote - Is there an implied difference in skill? Does one confer more prestige than the other? Does the need to have one label for oneself and to apply another label to someone else stem from insecurity, or is it boastful, or does it serve some other social purpose?

The answer to that would be "yes." Apply as needed. :)

Quote - Mostly, in CGI forums (this one included), I see "hobbyist" and "amateur" used in a less than positive way as a way to distinguish those who "know what they're talking about" from those who load, click, and render NVIATWAS.

This is the problem: defining the person and the work with the same label. A hobbyist who creates wonderful items but has no intention of making a living off of the work is, to me, a skilled (quality) hobbyist (motivation). Someome who tries to make money by way of "quantity over quality" is, to me, an unskilled (quality) pro (motivation).

Are these terms important? Only in as far as language is important to express concepts. If I never posted or read about these things, I would never need internal terms for them.

@ Moriador - I tend to agree but...

There seems to be an unjustified prejudice against hobbyists or amateurs which implies these people are unskilled, untalented, inexperienced, or produce work of lower quality than professionals. Quite often it can be the reverse, since the true definition of amateur is someone who works for the love of it. Batlab is a very good example here, since he produced Poser content of amazing high quality long before he decided to sell things. Mask-Da is another one. I defy anyone to find guitar models as good as Mask's, paid for or free.

Personally, I don't give a damn what label a thing has. As Shakespeare said, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

"mysticeagle, "I am now going to redefine myself .."

Personally I dont define myself by what I am doing on a computer with software or even what industry I happen to be in.
That can be dangerous for your mental state.

what happens when there is some major shift in your field and you are no longer able to do such a thing?.

Also when your entire self worth/self perception is tied to what you do with your software& computers or even paints,pencils&brushes you are in danger becoming too Emotionally involved in other peoples perception of what you Do.
to the point where some comment posted by some anonymous nobody on the internet about some "3D render" of yours, who him/herself might be hiding behind a completely false persona ,sends you into a Rage or Depression ...Sad very sad

As an aside "Globalization" is finally thundering through the VFX industry in America.
Many long established Visual effects companies are shutting down over here because big budget film effects are being done overseas by very skilled people who work at a much lower rate based on their local living standards not the inflated standards in LA or London

if you read some of the threads over at CG society you will be amazed at the fear,panic and anger expressed and calls for Government intervention to save the oh so precious "VFX industry".

One realistic minded guy over there put things in their proper perspective
he said ,"possibly excluding industrial design and medical research visualization"
we CG/3D"Artists" do NOT produce ANYTHING that can be eaten, lived for shelter or worn on the human body for warmth its all just a bit of fleeting visual entertainment".

I dont care how good you are with poser shader node math or character Animation or if you are rendering with poser4 or Autodesk Max with VRAY

WE are not producing anything vital to or actually necessary to mankind
This is why I am amazed at the pure hatred I see expressed over the silly DAZ/genesis affair.

Cheers

There are many ways to define a pro.

Snarlygribbly says that you are only a pro if you make your living at it.

SAMS3D talk about talent, skill.

And then we have style and taste.

Myself I go after ambition.

And there are probably a dozen more.

But one thing is sure. There is a huge difference in how much time, money and recourses people lay down on their projects. There you have some tangible that can be measured, that is not subjective.

Quote - "I don't really understand why labels are important."

It is important because if you don't know where the other peson stand you have problems understanding each other. That is the main cause of misunderstandings in this forum.

wolf, did you think i was actually being serious? lol..........the truth of how i think of myself is a bloke with unfortunately too much time on his hands who decided to have a crack at something because a) I had the time to do it b) actually wanted to try and learn a new skill c) save myself some money...........

I don't try and conform myself into any category in all honesty and whether or not i was a pro, am or well meaning hobbyist, the only true value that can be put on anything I did, no matter what field it were in, is how it was recieved or perceived by others..This i think is true of all contributors to the market place or even freestuff. True there are those who by the work they have previously done are expected to produce continuing high quality output, but as someone once said, you are only as good as your last success.

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5 64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
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"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

"wolf, did you think i was actually being serious? lol..........the truth of how i think of myself is a bloke with unfortunately too much time on his hands"

Hi Actually I noticed the sort of "poking fun at yourself" tone in your remark,

But the general tone of this thread seems to indicate
that some are serious about defining themselve in the context of pro or hobbyistin this "Area"and i would assert that the nature of what we do,( making images/animations etc for for no reason other than to be viewed/looked at /watched or played on Xbox by someone)
,is not something that should be taken this seriously wether so called "pro" or hobbyist.
we so called "Artists" Pro or hobbyists are not a resource that humanity actually needs
but frankly something it merely occasionally desires when time & the economic environment allows.

Quote - i would assert that the nature of what we do,( making images/animations etc for for no reason other than to be viewed/looked at /watched or played on Xbox by someone)
,is not something that should be taken this seriously wether so called "pro" or hobbyist.
we so called "Artists" Pro or hobbyists are not a resource that humanity actually needs
but frankly something it merely occasionally desires when time & the economic environment allows.

This. 100%

Well said, Sir.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

A long time a go I had a person call me a longed haired ,white trash ,tattoo ,anarchist hippie artist ,That belonged in jail. I knew they where trying to be insulting but I took it as a complement coming from the likes of them.

I define my entire existence as being a Artist ,That's what I am.
Has nothing to do with titles or money.

If I cared about money or prestige I would be a Doc.

The one's that make CGI for the money but have no Love for it.
Thay might be a pro but there not a Artist.

Before you dismis Artist as not being important ,keep in mind.

If not for Artist we would all be standing in a field naked.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"Before you dismis Artist as not being important ,keep in mind.
If not for Artist we would all be standing in a field naked."

Hmm interesting point of view.
but perhaps YOU would be "naked in a field" without artists.

Not me..

My Dwelling/building is framed with
welded Steel.
Oscar Kelberg(Non artist) of sweden invented and patented the covered electrode making modern welding fast enough to be commercially viable

Tthe main floors of my building/dwelling are made of formed concrete.

John Smeaton an English engineer
(NON artist) invented the modern form of concrete used in building construction today.

My building/dwelling is air conditioned eliminating any need to "stand naked in a field" to cool off.
Air condition was invented by (Non artist)William Cullen at the University of Glasgow in Scotland in 1748.

The garments I am wearing at this very moment(thus preventing me being Naked) are made of woven cotton.

Eli Whitney(NON artist) was the inventor of the cotton gin and a pioneer in the mass production of cotton.

These same garments were sewn together with a device called a "sewing machine"
The first functional sewing machine was invented by the French tailor,(Non artist) Barthelemy Thimonnier, in 1830.

(yep.. Google.. the unrelenting enemy of hyperbole)

Cheers

I don't buy the notion that eaten, lived in etc. is merely a non-essential luxury. I find much of the art/entertainment etc. I see personally useless or worse but ... I think the fact that the impulse to create and consume these things is so innate in human beings suggests that is vitally important in some way. Religious people apparently tend to live longer as well, but you can't eat that either.

Now maybe you're only referring to CGI and not art/culture in general. In that you would probably be correct since mankind existed fine before computers were even invented. Still, they are increasingly the medium of artistic expression and therefore no less valid than other mediums IMO. Sorry but it just seems like too simplistic a view. By extension, you could say that a packing crate will do just as well as a house and we could all eat algae and wear garbage bags. Yeah, we could but where's the fun in reducing everything to the LCD :-) Apologies if I misunderstand the point.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Art has no value? Art is not important? The idea is fantastic, baroque, absurd, preposterous. It is very easy to prove that art is the most important thing of all. Imagine that someone on sunday took away all beauty in the world. So how to you think people would feel on monday?

?

You should always take your work seriously, no matter what it is. That is the work, not yourself! ;)

Quote - .....And finally, i don't think that the mentality you mention is the issue for people having their feelings hurt, I think in many cases it is the tone of the critique poster and very often, I regret to say, the forum history of the critic in question......

lol, no offense to anyone, but - people here don't have a clue what cruel is when it comes to critiques.

Cruel... stapling a mcdonald's application as a final grade to your photography portfolio that you've worked all semester on perfecting.

Cruel... pointing out - to the entire student body - how lousy your work is, on an overhead projector, picking apart every detail and then asking you to define to the rest of the class what a pencil is.

Cruel... after embarrassing you to the rest of your class, hanging that drawing on the far left wall under the giant bold letters that read "WALL OF SHAME" where it will stay until at least the end of the semester, and for the really special ones, long after you've moved on to other classes... or dropped out.

Cruel... the single comment at the top of your page "Is anything you try to write, NOT a clich'e?" along with a giant red 0 - in your creative writing class.

I know I've been guilty of being a bit harsh on my critiques, or sounding like i'm trying to be insulting. I really don't intentionally insult anyone and I always try to find good points to highlight, even when there really arent any. So I usually just don't critique at all. But the above is just a few examples of the environment I come from in terms of critiques. I'm used to being told something I've spent months working on is complete shit and to start over. That was my school. You deal with it, get used to it or find something else to major in. But part of the intention was to weed out those who couldn't handle harsh criticism and make the rest try that much harder.

Most people here are hobbyists tho, and shouldn't be subjected to that level of scrutiny, but at the same time they should be expected to at least *try *to make whatever they're doing worth looking at, to evoke some sort of internal response from the viewer, and be open to objective criticism if they post what they're doing, and not get so insulted when someone tells them it's crap. It's not a personal attack, it's just an observation and encouragement to do better next time.

I still think 99% of my work is complete sh*t and only rarely get lucky and actually like something I'm working on. After 10 years I'm starting to wonder why I'm still trying to do this, as I've never produced anything that I'm really happy with. My only real reason for "why" is the $130K worth of student debt I have to show for it, cause there really isn't much else.

~Shane

AmbientShade : Whats the name of your school ? I want to make sure none of my kids ever go there.

If any one tryed to put my Art on a wall of shame I promise you I would brake there arm.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

LOL Ouch! That sounds like the Marine bootcamp technique. At least there, they can say they're dealing with life and death to justify it.

*"... and not get so insulted when someone tells them it's crap. It's not a personal attack, it's just an observation and encouragement to do better next time." *

Actually, if that's the limit of their criticism skills, then I'd say they're as bereft of talent as their target. Some people may indeed believe from their own experience that such is the best way to help others develop but IMO, some people are just asses who get off on skewering others. That doesn't mean they may not have teaching skills but I certainly don't think that the two combined are a requirement for teaching or critical excellence. I'm not against giving someone a kick on occasion but I'm afraid that I'm more Mr. Rogers than Parris Island DI. Having the discernment to know when to apply either technique and leaning toward the former sounds better to me. I'm not sure that the DI technique hasn't ruined more talent than it's nurtured but I have no way of knowing. At any rate, I'd be leery of trying it these days. In the past, getting even meant egging the guy's car. Today, they're liable to bring in an AK and throw down on you.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

i meant to attach this to my last post but couldn't find it. Can't remember where I originally came across it but it always gives me a chuckle.

~Shane

hmmm.... devilish grin...what is Art ?

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
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Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

don't worry. If I make an oil painting and wipe my brush with a towel, then at the auction the towel will get the highest bid.

Anyway, since the OP just made a statement without asking a question and without revealing why he launched this thread, what's the point of all this in the first place? Just wondering.

- - - - -

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Many tries to denigrate art, for instance by claiming that "everything is art", "it is in the eyes of the beholder", "every days items is art", "sport is art" etc, etc. I'll guess that is because art is inherently undemocratic and that offends some people. However, "Women come and go, speaking of Michelangelo" even if he lived almost 500 years ago. So I'll guess that art and beauty will prevail anyhow no matter how many who tear it down and wants to belittle it.

**"Religious people apparently tend to live longer as well, but you can't eat that either. **"

That is usually the result of lifestyle choices
related to the various practices.
(modest consumption,avoiding toxins purifying the body with fasting etc.)

"By extension, you could say that a packing crate will do just as well as a house and we could all eat algae and wear garbage bags. Yeah, we could but where's the fun in reducing everything to the LCD :-) Apologies if I misunderstand the point."

Actually you have missed the point respectfully sir
no one suggests we stop everything and live in the most basic conditions of food,clothing and shelter.

But I dont hear the people who manufacture the storage crates and garbage disposal supplies
carrying on about how important their work is to the society or how it "defines" them as human beings as much I hear coming from self described "Artists" and I come from a "fine art" background btw.

I personally LOVE the Visual Arts and COLOR
(just check my website link below)
I worked as Graphic Designer for print for 18 years before getting into 3D&Animation.

But I am not under any Delusion that my "Art "
has an intrinsic value anywhere NEAR that of the
sanitation engineers in New york whom are enabling me to have Drinkable water and flushing toilets

Take away the Mona Lisa or ILM and all special effects movies and all 3D render engines on the same day you Take away refrigeration and functional sewers and see what regular people complain about the most .
"Artists" really need to get over them/ourselves

Cheers

http://youtu.be/7mmal0PMkmI

Quote - hmmm.... devilish grin...what is Art ?

Whenever this is asked.. I think of 2 scenes... the first...

RIMMER: Many's a night we while away the wee hours contemplating a Caravaggio, discussing its shape, themes and form.

CAT: The pointy-stick game doesn't get a look-in anymore.

RIMMER: Hmm. Marvelous. (Crosses over to a small, angular box near the door.) Now this three-dimensional sculpture in particular is quite exquisite. Its simplicity, it's bold, stark lines... pray, what do you call it?

LEGION: The light switch.

*RIMMER: The light switch. *

LEGION: Yes.

RIMMER: I couldn't buy it, then?

LEGION: Not really. I need it to turn the lights on and off.

Red Dwarf - Legion

and

Doctor Who - City of Death.

Quote - http://youtu.be/7mmal0PMkmI

Doctor Who - City of Death.

Awesome link Khai

Well... I do find that drawing on the walls of my cave, using charcoal from the fire that my forebears kindled, helps pass the time on these long dark nights... as I shelter from the endless cycle of ruthless predation outside the cave.

Sometimes I look back on an image I made previously, whilst in a kind of trance and I think... eureka!

I've found myself drawing circles recently... I think they might mean something.

exits to a recital of Richard Straus' "Also sprach Zarathustra" as played by the Vienna Philarmonic Orchesra

Having given the Pro vs Hobbyist some thought... I think it's better defined by looking at how one aproaches the work rather than simply looking at it as Pro=paid etc...

An amature or 'hobbyist' is probably doing it for fun... and may go weeks or months between works and is more concerned in general with the joy they get in the works they create. A hobbyist can be just as skilled or even more skilled that a 'pro' but isn't aiming at making a living off of it nessessarily.

A pro may be aiming at making a lving off his work... but being paid doesn't make them more or less skilled that the hobbyist (infact I've seen 'pro' works that were horrible compared to some of the work from gifted amatures out there)...

Where the 'pro' differes truely from the hobbyist is in his aproach to the work... he/she daily works on projects in some form, treats it like a job he/she enjoys rather than just looking at it for the fun it can be. The 'pro' also will respond to his end users (clients) in a much more business-like manner where as the amature/hobbyist might not...

In both cases the end result is the same... artworks etc get created, but the major factor between pro and hobbyist is the aproach and attitude towards the work... atleast in my humble opinion...

Having given the Pro vs Hobbyist some thought... I think it's better defined by looking at how one aproaches the work rather than simply looking at it as Pro=paid etc...

An amature or 'hobbyist' is probably doing it for fun... and may go weeks or months between works and is more concerned in general with the joy they get in the works they create. A hobbyist can be just as skilled or even more skilled that a 'pro' but isn't aiming at making a living off of it nessessarily.

A pro may be aiming at making a lving off his work... but being paid doesn't make them more or less skilled that the hobbyist (infact I've seen 'pro' works that were horrible compared to some of the work from gifted amatures out there)...

Where the 'pro' differes truely from the hobbyist is in his aproach to the work... he/she daily works on projects in some form, treats it like a job he/she enjoys rather than just looking at it for the fun it can be. The 'pro' also will respond to his end users (clients) in a much more business-like manner where as the amature/hobbyist might not...

In both cases the end result is the same... artworks etc get created, but the major factor between pro and hobbyist is the aproach and attitude towards the work... atleast in my humble opinion...

Anyway, since the OP just made a statement without asking a question and without revealing why he launched this thread, what's the point of all this in the first place? Just wondering.

*What's the point of this question?

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Take away the Mona Lisa or ILM and all special effects movies and all 3D render engines on the same day you Take away refrigeration and functional sewers and see what regular people complain about the most .
"Artists" really need to get over them/ourselves

*The pay keeps me humble.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Well it takes all kinds to make a world. Let the 1000 flowers bloom.

But what saddens me is when I browse the galleries and see someone who clearly have a talent waste it completely by being unserious.

"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."

***The Fourth Doctor - Robot

Hmm, I see your point.

Sorry about the double post above... the site was giving me some issues as was internet explorer and it had shown as frozen and not processing my post the first time... apologies.. it was purely unintentional...

Quote -
But I am not under any Delusion that my "Art "
has an intrinsic value anywhere NEAR that of the
sanitation engineers in New york whom are enabling me to have Drinkable water and flushing toilets

Take away the Mona Lisa or ILM and all special effects movies and all 3D render engines on the same day you Take away refrigeration and functional sewers and see what regular people complain about the most .
"Artists" really need to get over them/ourselves

Artists are the innovators of society. Without them, who would have built that refridgerator?

Can you think of anything man-made that did not require the aid of an artist at some point in its design?

Considering, the very basic definition of art is design, without artists we'd still be living in caves wiping our asses with leaves and covering them with bear skins.

Entertainment is necessary on a psychological level in order for people not to go crazy, or become violent, and in order to have entertainment you need artists of some form or another to create it.

So while the world can survive without ILM and special effects movies, the world would be much less comfortable and much more primitive and violent, without artists.

~Shane

"Grown-ups never understand anything by themselves, and it is tiresome for children to have to explain things to them always and forever." - Antoine de Saint Exupery

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"Artists are the innovators of society. Without them, who would have built that refridgerator?"

An Engineer

"Can you think of anything man-made that did not require the aid of an artist at some point in its design?"

yes soap.

The Axe

"Considering, the very basic definition of art is design, without artists we'd still be living in caves wiping our asses with leaves and covering them with bear skins. "

Perhaps YOU would sir
I would be living in a steel & concrete structure design by the NON ARTISTS individuals I listed earlier inspired by NECESSITY
Read the history for yourself sir

Cheers

An engineer is an artist.

A blacksmith is an artist.

A cook is an artist.

A clothing designer is an artist.

Even a software designer is an artist.

They may not be artists who specialize in color theory but they are designers who have to use the creative process to bring their ideas to fruition through the principles of design. Therefore they are artists.

Tell the architect that built that concrete and steel structure that he's not an artist and you're likely to be insulted, or worse.

Leonardo da Vinci - one of the greatest inventors of all time, was an artist first.

Artists have been responsible for cultural and political upheavals and change for as long as man has existed. They influence the way we interpret the world and can change peoples minds about issues on a subliminal level just by portraying in a different light. You can look to the history of television for countless examples of that.

~Shane

AmbientShade : My Friend ,There is no point in debating with a machine.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Based on basicwiz info I'm guessing venders make around $600.00 a year.

Some months better then others.

Rhiannon had a good month and won vender of the month

So Rhiannon made $60.00 this month.

If she made her products with C4D ,Photoshop ,on a desent PC.

It cost $6000.00 to make $60.00

& if it's just for personal use why make it for Poser ,

why not leave it in C4D it would be a lot eaiser then making it work in Poser.

If she worked at Micky D's she could make $60.00 in a 8 and 1/2 hour shift.

At MickyD's she would not need C4D ,Photoshop ,or a desent PC.

or the years it took to learn them.

or the 40 hours a week it takes to make content at
$60.00 a month it's basicly working for free.

So people are venders hoping to get a Job at ILM ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I have to agree with AmbientShade.

If you have style and taste,

a high IQ,

and a technical background

Then you are an artist whether you know about it or not.

RorrKonn,

There are endless talk about how little you earn as vendors and even the median income of other artists in the society is low is low. Nevertheless I am sure the top vendore have a nice income. How much the vendors earn is a big secret but there are indications. Any product that don't sell (or don't sell anymore) is removed. But there are many vendors who have several pages with products..think for yourself.

Another info I have from the Marvelous Designer site. When the management were trying to set the price for the Commercial version of their product they put a couple of garments up for sale at Renderosity as a test. And they earned $1000 in a month.

This endless talk about low earnings is just another "you shall not think that you are something" variant. If you succeed to acquire a skill set comparable to the professionals there are endless ways to make money. Even little I were contacted by an event company in New York for an consignment. I was forced to say no because it was way over my head. But anyhow.

Edit: Most important of all you must be able to work fast.

This endless talk about low earnings is just another "you shall not think that you are something" variant. If you succeed to acquire a skill set comparable to the professionals there are endless ways to make money.

Very few Poser content creators make a living at it. No Poser content creators are getting rich from it. It's just a fact. The real money for this sort of stuff resides elsewhere.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

I'm not asking about the money ,I'm asking why work here for little pay ?

If the money is else where why are thay here and not where the money is ?

Making it work for the app that it is modeled in and Poser is twice the work.

why don't thay just make content for there app and make nothing at turbo ?
it would be easier.

Do you stand a better chance of getting on at ILM if you made Poser content ?

If venders are not here for the money ,Then why are thay here ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I'm asking why work here for little pay ?

It makes sense if you're a hobbyist. *

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

"If venders are not here for the money ,Then why are thay here ?"

Because for the growing ground. If you can hold your own as a vendor here at Renderosity you can hold your own anywhere.

Quote - RorrKonn,

There are endless talk about how little you earn as vendors and even the median income of other artists in the society is low is low. Nevertheless I am sure the top vendore have a nice income. How much the vendors earn is a big secret but there are indications. Any product that don't sell (or don't sell anymore) is removed. But there are many vendors who have several pages with products..think for yourself.

Another info I have from the Marvelous Designer site. When the management were trying to set the price for the Commercial version of their product they put a couple of garments up for sale at Renderosity as a test. And they earned $1000 in a month.

This endless talk about low earnings is just another "you shall not think that you are something" variant. If you succeed to acquire a skill set comparable to the professionals there are endless ways to make money. Even little I were contacted by an event company in New York for an consignment. I was forced to say no because it was way over my head. But anyhow.

Edit: Most important of all you must be able to work fast.

I scan the gallery ,I might see the same out fit 10 times.
So i think thay sold 10 of them ,that's not much.

I've never seen a $1000 worth of anything sold In the Poser gallery.

Bet the rest of the venders would like to know how Marvelous Designer made a $1000.

I think vender income is a big secret because thay don't want other commercail jobs thinking thay don't half to pay them.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - "If venders are not here for the money ,Then why are thay here ?"

Because for the growing ground. If you can hold your own as a vendor here at Renderosity you can hold your own anywhere.

The ones that use to be a vender but left cause they got a higher paying CGI job.
How many of them where there ?
What was the Jobs ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"So i think thay sold 10 of them ,that's not much"

That doesn't mean anything most traditional painters with brush and easel don't earn much either. Nevertheless, Jack Vettriano, who is an traditional figurative artist not modernist in any way on 21 April 2004 sold the original canvas of The Singing Butler at an auction for £744,500. And there are many others like him.

Most of the Poser users may be hobbyists, but a successful vendor is always a professional.

And many vendors started out as hobbyist users.

It is a sad fact that, to a great extent, in our current age, artistry has become somewhat divorced from engineering and science. The cost of this is a loss of vision... a loss of insight into why we build what we build. A loss of any real sense of what life is and why it is important. My feeling at least. But, this is a relatively recent phenomenon.

We certainly wouldn't be where we are at now, as humanity, a race built upon its culture, without our projective imaginations... the core mental faculty inherent in the practice of art and design.

I do think though, that CG is an area where artistry and technical method do meet up... the engineer's brain, is once again married up to the artistic heart.

I guess compartmentalisation of the roles of artist and designer, relative to scientist and engineer, in our contemporary society is largely a logistical necessity too... these areas have all, of course, become so specialised, compared to what they were even just a century or so ago... one cannot hope to be a jack of all trades and truly master any.

I still love the notion though, in principle at least, of the Da Vinci-esque bricoleur...

...and, in terms of that topic of specialism, I find it fascinating that, for example, in the field of CG, there are now, seemingly, individuals who are effectively specialist, virtual hairdressers...

The poser content market is subject to the basic rule of supply & Demand Just like any other market and for a LONG time now the Supply has far exceed the Demand. No one is making a full time living as a poser ,*(lets be honest)*Vicky Content maker.

The management recently Imposed new minimum pricing guidelines to try to stem the flow of low priced similar items in the market but it wont help the situation to be honest.

As far as the "pros" working for big CG studios I suggest you go and read the forum sticky called "The truth about the Industry" over the CG society.org.

in short even if you work AT ILM, Weta Digital etc, unless you are the owners/management you will likely work ridiculous hours (65-70) per week, and when the final deliverables for a film project are ready for post you are back out on the street looking for another gig. and they are fewer in between.

And now that everybody can afford MAYA,Nuke, or Houdini etc and has access to high quality training videos most of the Big CG companies are moving their facilities over sea's to take advantage of cheap local labor.

The realty is that despite all the hype from politicians about a "recovery" the World Economy has not ,and likely will never, go back to the easy credit Days before the crash of 2008.

look at the situation in Europe right now. we had a big multi decade period of "growth" that was false as it was based on borrowed money.

"...and, in terms of that topic of specialism, I find it fascinating that, for example, in the field of CG, there are now, seemingly, individuals who are effectively specialist, virtual hairdressers..."

HI perhaps there are people only doing this for themselves or "hobbyists" but no CG studio will pay one individual just to Do nothing but CG hair.

Cheers

http://www.renderosity.com/keyword/VOM

Yup... I think the virtual hair specialist I noted, from something on the CGSociety website, looked like they were aiming to bolster their income, between whatever paying game or film industry jobs they might be getting, by teaching classes...

...I certainly wasn't trying to suggest anyone was making a decent living from this specialism. Maybe they are... but I certainly don't know either way.

When I graduated art college, I quickly decided there was no hope of making a decent living from anything that I'd just studied... and without wealthy parents or a trust fund to rely on, I chose an entirely unrelated career path, which, I'm thankful, has so far kept paying my bills.

Now, I am most definitely a hobbyist, when it comes to any form of creative arts... and personally I like it that way.

I know of only a handful of people I went to college with who have had success in a creative industry. But of those, a number have indeed now been very successful, in the Fine Art market and also in the Film industry (to the level of regularly working on major studio, blockbuster movies, in one case).

Cheers

Interesting comments! I went to art school and was planing on being an artist from the time I was a child. I ended up in the concrete business. I always kept my foot in it building and designing trade show displays and creating our brochures and ads. But I always felt something was missing in my life and not truly happy. I have been lucky enough to be able to retire early and pursue this fulltime on my own. I think Im beginning to feel like a kid again ( which is a good thing) after 34 years in the business world.

wolf359, "Everything is bleak and downhill" ;)

Why don't you read some of the interviews of "Vendor of the Month"? I don't hear any complaining from that department. And BTW, I have never heard one single negative word from those vendors I know and respect.

I especially enjoyed the interview with Joanna (StudioArtVartanian), author of "The Dragon Lady", one of the most amazing products I ever seen at Renderosity.

"And BTW, I have never heard one single negative word from those vendors I know and respect."

You say that from the limited perspective of someone who does not have access to our private vendors only forum Vintorix.
People speak much more openly there
to each other about the state of things than in the general forums.

Cheers

By your definition, Vintorix, I'm an artist even though I'd never claim to be. Then again, style and taste are somewhat arbitrary in their definitions. I certainly fit the bill otherwise, though.

Thing is, my art - my real art - doesn't get featured here, ever. I generally draw and paint for the love of it anyhow. Same with music. I take them seriously but I don't expect anyone else to do so.

An amateur artist, maybe? :)

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

SamTherapy,

Tolstoy has written some very interesting, informative and profound thoughts about what that should be "the driving force" in artists, in his case a famous violin player. I recommend to check it out. I won't go into it here, but I can say that love of the your art was, although important, not no #1 on the list.

From Wolf's comments about the Vendors forums, am I to assume that something is rotten in the kingdom of denmark?

or is there a conspiracy amongst the vendors to dominate the world market economy?

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
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My freestuff

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@ Vintorix - thanks, I'll check it out.

@ Mystic - not really. It's just that it can be a lot of hard work for little reward, being a vendor. The trick is to be really, really good. And innovative. Don't go too far from the mainstream, though; you could end up selling nothing at all, no matter how good it is.

Generally speaking, if you can find a niche that's popular with customers but not over done by vendors, you can sell stuff, provided it's good quality. OTOH, Oskarsson sells some totally bizarre stuff, so somebody must like it enough to make it worthwhile.

Maybe we should collaborate on something, under the name of the Bellamy Brothers. ;)

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

is it not true Sam, that like pieces of art, they have their fans, many a new master or old master is purchased and never sees the light of day, often for investment, but also because people get a kick out of collecting pieces by artist X....... Maybe the same is true of some Poser/Daz/Modo/Max etc items, there are those who will purchase an item and add it to their collection and often it may never see the light of day. If that is the case, my invisible low res morphing figure should make us a fortune :) The texturing was a doddle........

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5 64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

:lol:

Another thought, Monkeycloud, you and me go into partnership and call ourselves Mystic Monkey Therapy. :D

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

if we need a python script, we can become the notoriously unpleasant

Snarly mystic monkey therapy, and if we don't sell any models, we can always offer counselling to frustrated semi professional hobbyist artists :thumbupboth:

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5 64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

Yep. Such as, "Give up now, you're crap". :lol:

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Since where on the subject anyways.

Poser vender
http://jhoagland.wordpress.com/2012/05/09/advice-for-online-vendors-ii-some-selling-truths-exposed/
You going to stay at a payless job for 10 years ?

The one response.

http://3dexport.com/blog/2011/10/how-to-make-over-50-000-dollars-a-year-selling-3d-models-tips-from-a-top-seller/
Would you work on the left side of the street for a $100 a year knowing you could make $50,000 a year on the right side of the street ?

So I'm going to say
A hobbyist are the people that buy Poser content.
A pro are the ones selling Poser content ,making $50,000 a year.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I suspect a reasonable proportion of vendors are essentially hobbyists who are selling to recoup the bit of extra money they need to pay for their hobby?

I was intrigued to read the one comment on Hoaglands web article....does it offer an insight into the very question that the OP raised? or is it purely sour grapes...these aren't my words, so please no hatemail..................................................... Quote

"Why not tell the WHOLE truth here? You left out the part about other vendors in this industry who do everything in their power to cut your throat and leave you lying on the floor bleeding to death. HA! One less potential vendor!

Don’t leave out the part about the vendors who hate those who “only do this for fun while I have to depend on it to eat” and the ones who would rather slit their OWN throats before sharing knowledge with a potential vendor!

Tell these folks just exactly what they are walking into. It’s an ugly, nasty industry. You’ll not get out with all your limbs intact."

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5 64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

Quote - if we need a python script, we can become the notoriously unpleasant

Snarly mystic monkey therapy, and if we don't sell any models, we can always offer counselling to frustrated semi professional hobbyist artists :thumbupboth:

As long as we can automate the proposed counselling service, using interactive Poser-generated avatars, and a simple AI engine, I'm in

I can even make an iPhone app version, and use that IOS Developer account, that I've not used to publish anything with yet, due to having to rework an entire app to take account of changes to the underlying os' mapping system... :crying:

...ah... hang on, I think that app store might just be significantly more heavily contended / saturated than the 3d content marketplace is???

:lol:

monkeycloud : I am trying to make a comic ,On a huge budget of ...drum roll...$000.00.
One way was to make content for the comic and sell it. to buy other content for the comic.
I was trying to figure out if I would make enuff to buy any content.
Starting vendors are hobbyist for the most part ,but if you sell sexy panties for years and years then your make good.
I don't care to just make Vicky content.

mysticeagle : I thought all of it was a good read. why I posted it I guess.
The comenter ,They used the name exvender , one coment is not that helpful.
Need more coments.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Monkey, i think i've cracked it : we make illustrated virtual mesh mobile phone covers for the people that can't afford an IPhone, but like the prestige of showing their virtual accessories to their friends on their ancient stone tablets size console phones, then, and this is the clever bit, the other half of the "company" offers them counselling to help with the feeling of stupidity they are suffering in purchasing non existent items.

It's win win.........

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5 64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

My point in the last post, I guess, was that most marketplaces tend to be fairly bustling.

In large part this is what draws people back to them. But its what can make them a difficult place to sell (and indeed buy) in too...

The trick for a vendor to work out is, as ever, how to stand out and really sell their stuff... I guess? How to construct a robust enough soapbox. Choice of loudhailer, patter... and before all that, what might sell.

I suspect there's a reasonable chance if the stuff you're making for your own requirements, making a comic, is not otherwise available... or available at the quality you can make it to, then you're in with a fighting chance?

You might be looking at having to sell two copies of an item to buy one similarly priced, by the sounds of it. Pretty standard sort of economics there though... well actually it's a pretty good cut, relative to a lot of marketplaces, I think... e.g. the record industry perhaps?

If you're needing the items anyway yourself, you've lost nothing by making them?

The pro think they need expensive software otherwise they're not really a pro and the hobbyist are clever enough to use/buy software that suit them and they can work with well and get the results they want.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - Monkey, i think i've cracked it : we make illustrated virtual mesh mobile phone covers for the people that can't afford an IPhone, but like the prestige of showing their virtual accessories to their friends on their ancient stone tablets size console phones, then, and this is the clever bit, the other half of the "company" offers them counselling to help with the feeling of stupidity they are suffering in purchasing non existent items.

It's win win.........

He he... even my 9 month old is no longer falling for the old fake-an-iphone-using-an-old-hardshell-case trick...

...but that could only mean more success for the flipside counselling service, in your business model, I guess?

Quote - The pro think they need expensive software otherwise they're not really a pro and the hobbyist are clever enough to use/buy software that suit them and they can work with well and get the results they want.

LOL damn, you figured it out! Except for the part where if you don't know how to use the pro software, then you aren't getting a job in a pro studio, no matter how good your skills are in wings3D or blender. And they're not going to waste time teaching you, or waiting for you to learn it. They'll just tell you to try again when you know how to use 3DS or Maya (those are the big 2 that most studios use one or the other of, if not both).

Some studios are incorporating blender into their pipeline recently, but they still require proficiency in max or maya. That's why schools teach max or maya, and not wings3d or blender.

ETA: If you're freelance then it doesn't matter what software you use, so long as you can convert to whatever format the client requires.

~Shane

"It’s an ugly, nasty industry. You’ll not get out with all your limbs intact."

Hmm, that could be used to describe politics, pro sports (NFL Bounty system) or anything else where money and/or ego are involved.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - "It’s an ugly, nasty industry. You’ll not get out with all your limbs intact."

Hmm, that could be used to describe politics, pro sports (NFL Bounty system) or anything else where money and/or ego are involved.

It could be used to describe certain jumble (rummage) sales I've been to...

"Except for the part where if you don't know how to use the pro software, then you aren't getting a job in a pro studio, no matter how good your skills are in wings3D or blender. And they're not going to waste time teaching you, or waiting for you to learn it. They'll just tell you to try again when you know how to use 3DS or Maya (those are the big 2 that most studios use one or the other of, if not both).

Some studios are incorporating blender into their pipeline recently, but they still require proficiency in max or maya. That's why schools teach max or maya, and not wings3d or blender. "

Quoted for complete & absolute agreement! ..well said Shane.

Cheers

If I knew 3DS or Maya good enough to get a job in a studio I wouldn't be stupid enough to take the job.

Why are they using Blender in there pipe line ?

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The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"Why are they using Blender in there pipe line ?"

I personally do not know of any Major north American Visual effects company using Blender
But if you want to know why any company in general would use blender then
HAVE A LOOK.

Cheers