Why are the legs of a lot of  skintextures darker then the other part of the body? I've noticed that in the mayor part of the skintextures I have, the legs are darker. Has this been done on purpose or has it to do with the reference photo's used to make the texture. I find this quit annoying.

best regards,

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

It's not your imagination. I work with Merchant Resources because I don't at this time have the capability of creating a base map from scratch. And it's true that on several merchant resource packages the legs are darker and/or sunburned. With the character/texture set I'm working on I've tried to fix that aspect, but it is a problem. So is the disappearance of merchant resources. I own 3 resource packages that are no longer available in the store. I don't see V4 going away anytime soon so I'd like to see some of the resources come back or new ones added. I'd even make a stab at a character package for Michelle, but I have not seen a merchant resource base for her yet and that's why I've not spent the money to buy that figure yet.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

Same here, I certainly noticed that in many many packages, and it's anoying to say the least, it turns a one click solution to an edit-and-try situation.

If there are texture creators reading this, of character packages or merchant resources, please consider making sure the skin color is mostly even across the body.

This is true, most (not all) skin creators (myself included) get their references from 3d.sk... and for some odd reason most of the female (and male) legs are either much darker or very red compared to the rest of the body.

I hasn't released any of my work yet (still working at it, but I do however have a product out with a partner)... but the one thing I'm trying to do is to match the legs to the rest of the body, which I've done quite a bit of feather selecting, changing contrast and saturation then re-touching seams to get a decent result cause I too don't think it's natural to have super-noticable color and darkness changes from the top torso to the legs, lol.

And to Latexluv the skin I've been working on is a product I'm planning to release as a brand new V4 Merchant Resource. So hopefully it will be done soon. ;)

I surely will be interested in a new resource to work with! Please let me know when you are ready to release. My money is tight but one of my Bday presents this month will be some cash to buy some more resources here on Rendo. I started collecting Merchant Resources not so much to create character sets to sell but for custom creations for my renders. That's why I have some merchant resources that were first available at the time V4 was fairly new. My collect of resources for M4 is even more pathetic. Only one base for M4 and it has the dreaded dark/reddish legs problem.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

BTW this is my girl. I've worked hard on this texture but there's still the red leg thing going on. I've tried my best to address this but I've had to tell myself to stop fiddling and get on with the promo images.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

I've noticed this myself, and having bought a few character sets like this, it's the first thing I check for. If it's too obvious, it's no sale. Latexluv, you've done a good job on yours. The change in tone is subtle enough that I might not notice it at all.

I wonder what causes it. Are the models undergoing a particularly brutal wax job the same day they're being photographed? Wouldn't explain the male legs with body hair, though.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I can't currently afford to get a limited subscription to 3d.sk, but as I understand it a lot of the Merchant Resource base creators work with hi rez photos from there. Maybe some of the models there decided to lay out for a quick tan before the shoot and ended up with sunburn instead. I'm not sure. I have only some freebee images from 3d.sk.

Thanx for your comment moriador on my texture. I worked hard on trying to calm down the red problem. Too bad there isn't any aloa vera lotion for texture maps! :)

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

I'm not sure what causes it either, it could be simply because they might wear long sleeve's with shorts or skirts (I see alot of people wear that type of style nowadays, lol). Or it could be the lighting, most professional photo studio's have those tall lamps and some are even extendable, but it's mostly pointed towards their upper torso/face...

As for your character Latexluv, she looks good, I can see the slight redness on her legs but it's not super noticable moriador said. Infact the problem may not even be darkness anymore but simply saturation and hue... Most arms/torso/face maps have a yellowish tone while the lower torso/legs almost always have a pink or red hue, lol.

Also, I don't plan to put a high price on MR I kinda hate it when other vendors make theirs extremely expensive, although I completely understand why, making a MR is very time consuming (going on a year now that I've worked on mine) and involves continuing my subscription with 3d.sk (I have the commercial subscription, gives more freedom for what you make with it's resources) incase I need more photo's.

Latexluv, what price range would you suggest, I would like to keep it in a realistic range for a larger customer scale? Hehe...

Well, there are new merchant guidelines, they're in the Vendor forum. If you're not a Vendor, you can't get in to see those. I'm not sure what the guidelines are on a Merchant Resource package. I know that after reading them, I had to make some adjustments to the package I was working on.

Personally, since I'm on a tight budget and very 'Scottish' in my buying....for example, I don't buy a new hair model unless it's on sale for under ten bucks. I can see both sides of the fence here because I'm a Vendor (I still have one character package in the store), and I'm a buyer. As a Vendor, I know how many hours, days, months of work I've put into this project, but as a buyer I want the most bang for my limited buck. I suggest you contact someone at the Marketplace to ask about pricing.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

most humans have quite a variation of skin tones across the body. Often the lower arms, face and legs are slightly darker than the torso, as those bits get more sun

also, a great many (ie almost all) poser character skins are made from photos bought from Levius - 3dsk.  So you will find a number of simialr skins, since they started with the same photos.

So its actually quite possible all the skins you notice have dark legs came from photos of one girl who wore shorts a lot that summer. lol

Generally adjusting this in photoshop is not all that difficult, if it bothers you

 

Lyrra

 

Quote - I'm not sure what causes it either, it could be simply because they might wear long sleeve's with shorts or skirts (I see alot of people wear that type of style nowadays, lol). Or it could be the lighting, most professional photo studio's have those tall lamps and some are even extendable, but it's mostly pointed towards their upper torso/face...

During the last years i have done a lot of photo shootings of people in the studio. It is hard to get an even lit shot across the whole body. Even with a softbox big enough, the distribution of light might not be uniform enough. 

Is this effect not to do with gravity and blood flow, to an extent, to?

Quote - Is this effect not to do with gravity and blood flow, to an extent, to?

Well, it might be. But since there exist a great many character sets out there that do not exhibit this problem at all, I'd think it's unlikely to be a problem common to most people or even most photographers.

I guess some merchant resource sets get used a lot, and it just happens to be that one or two of the more popular ones have red legs.

Some of the characters I've bought have such outstandingly red legs, I actually thought they were accidentally from a different set, until I noticed it happening in several of my purchases. It's a shame, too, because the top half of those sets is usually very nice. But the legs just totally ruin them for all but portraits shots or pants suits/jeans or very long dresses. To be sure, I make a lot of renders of people with covered legs, so it's not the end of the world. But if I can avoid buying red legged people, I will.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - Some of the characters I've bought have such outstandingly red legs, I actually thought they were accidentally from a different set, until I noticed it happening in several of my purchases. 

He he. Well, if it is an effect of gravity it sound like the references for those characters were in some sort of extreme-G Nasa test aparatus when they were photographed :lol:

...or colour distortion has crept into the underlying photographic, merchant resource creation or character creation process, I guess, as previously discussed...

This is not the only common problem. Together with baked in reflections, the textures are not ready to be used without improvements in photoshop.

unless they frequent a tanning salon or are photoshopped, the *typical* human's legs are somewhat redder toned than the rest of their body due to circulation - especially after physical activity.  attached is a more vivid example.

in the case of women, everything not covered by a tank top and shorts can be a touch darker as well due to tanning.

personally i cant stand the opposite:  'flood fill' skin textures where its a perfectly even beige tone from head to toes.

 

(if reposting a shrunken, copyright marked image from 3D.SK is a no-no then please delete it, however i dont see how what i posted could be used to texture since its shrunk to ~1/10th the original size).

Yeah, see what Gabe has posted looks normal.... and was what I'd meant to begin with.

I guess the issue is that this effect is getting amplified somehow in certain texture sets??

Or, some people want even more homogenous skin than this? Which isn't real-world, as much as a glamour ideal?

Am I right in thinking that the ideal texture should be hand painted, from such a reference, rather than just photo-processed?

Or, maybe a set of colour and texture intensity control maps, hand painted or photo extracted, driving procedural diffuse, reflections, etc?

> Quote - Am I right in thinking that the ideal texture should be hand painted, from such a reference, rather than just photo-processed?

if magazine and web photos are any indication, then what people want are airbrushed, monotone skin without pores or any hint of humanity.

i find it ironic that in 3D we toil over adding blemishes, wrinkles, stretch marks, pores, stubble, etc to our textures and fashion photography focuses on taking them away.

seriously, who the hell actually thinks the latter looks *better*?

obviously enough people to justify doing this for nearly every magazine and advertising photo.

UGH

Yeah, note, I was thinking hand painted blemishes

This is hand painted I believe? (From thread at ZBrush Central)

actually one of the things I find an instant turn off on characters is dark bags under the eyes and large visible pores. ew. Oddly enough the 'ungroomed eyebrow' doesnt bother me nearly as much as long as they are not mirror symmetrial, or wolfman scary

Another turn off .. pubic stubble. Either go natural or smooth, not sandpaper please lol

I want a photo ready model - not one that needs an hour in the makeup chair before I can use it.

I'm sure there are people who want that candid real world look, but I think most illustrators don't

Lyrra

The dark bags are an interesting point... in real life, considering someone with dark bags under their eyes... some of this is surely shadow, from the actual structure of the skin... but it is likely augmented by sub skin factors that contribute to the colour of darkened skin, I guess?

In a texture this would be a darker, bluer diffuse colour in those areas I guess?

Oh, this is one of my pet peeves. Precious few of the textures I've bought over the years are useable out-of-the-box.

Sometimes it's simply that the colour is wrong: too blue, too red, too yellow, strange purplish tones... it's not as if there's a shortage of images on the 'net that could be used for reference, if you know what I mean.

It's the burned-in shadows and highlights that really grind my gears. Most of the time these are fixable using various Photoshop techniques, but occasionally it's so bad that the textures are unusable. I'm trying to rescue a particular texture at the moment where the knees and elbows are the sort of dark purple you'd normally associate with the skins of aubergines (egg plants to you folks over the pond).

And what's with all the dirty bottoms? I know the sun doesn't shine there so reference photos will have a shadow, but including that in the texture maps is a bad - no, make that a terrible - idea.

Now that Poser has IDL and SSS, skin textures should show natural variations in tone, spots, freckles, blemishes and so on. But burned-in shadows and highlights are a no-no. Assuming I have the attention of any vendors, why are so few of you adept at making bump and specular maps? Making grayscale versions of the colour maps just won't do: it will make me think that you're both lazy and incompetent, and I probably won't buy your stuff again.

Maybe it should be mandatory to show thumbnails of texture, bump and other maps in the market place so we can make informed purchasing decisions.

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Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

I'm not going to post examples from the marketplace because I'm not willing to pick out certain vendors, but lets's just say I've bought some sets that had much, much darker legs than what Gabe has posted. Some have very dark knees.

I have a body, and I can see what it looks like in the mirror, and I know what it looks like when I'm standing up, and when I'm standing up after running 15km -- and I'm telling you, I don't have purple knees and deeply red legs.

I'm not arguing against realism necessarily, though I don't see why we would want our Poser people to be full of bruises, varicose veins, and blemishes when advertisers are doing everything to persuade us that it's possible to eliminate these things if we just buy the right products 'cause look at how perfect this model is?

But it's not realistic for a model to have purple knees and red legs and an orange torso.

So indeed something the character makers is doing to the source textures must be exacerbating the effect.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

 

Quote - seriously, who the hell actually thinks the latter looks better?

obviously enough people to justify doing this for nearly every magazine and advertising photo.

The worst, the absolute worst I have ever seen is Hugh Laurie with no eye bags in a L'Oreal Commercial. He hardly looks human.

How on earth they are permitted to present such obviously touched up film that bears so little resemblance to reality without being slammed for false advertising is beyond me.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - Am I right in thinking that the ideal texture should be hand painted, from such a reference, rather than just photo-processed?

Pretty much and also note that just as important are nice, high quality bump/displacement maps. eg if you look at the above examples by BH, note that color detail, even in the unprocessed images, is very subtle whereas bump detail is very very prominent. Unfortunately most poser content makers go the opposite route and focus mainly on color textures while bumps are whatever they can quickly derive from a photoshop filter or two. This is why even the best poser artists, using the best poser textures and the best shaders still produce doll like results. See the difference: Without bump:

With bump:

that scrunched-face guy is cool but its just a sculpt. im seeing so many of these CGTalk type images posted here lately as if to imply it should be some new Poser standard.

there is a big difference between static, high-poly zbrush sculpts, static morphed and displacement mapped detail, and what is possible in high end purpose-built rigging compared to your typical 'all-purpose' Poser figure designed for mass-market user-friendly use, customization and animation by hobbyists in a hobbyist app.

you could create an equivalent figure for Poser however maybe only 10% of the userbase would be willing to:

-read the instructions
-take the time to learn to use it
-adequately compensate the merchant for the time involved in making it
-understand and accept its limitations, and the fact that you cant make the 'Morgan Freeman' character into Fat Ballerina Susan, fit your entire V4 clothing library onto her and use every Vicky pose since 1995 with it
-take the time to light it properly
-wait for it to render

 

look at the Morphing Tool in Poser. its one of the most powerful tools already at everyones disposal, completely eliminates the need for run of the mill 'fix', squish, boob, etc morphs from the marketplace, can fix clothing pokethrough in seconds and can make your renders look 10x better, yet i am willing to bet that 90% of Poser users have never even tried it. many dont even know that it exists.

same goes for dynamic cloth. people just refuse to try it.

so all of a sudden we are supposed to start dumping pro level content on the community?  everything comes with a learning curve and a tradeoff.  marketplace history has proven that the average customer is unwilling to accept this.  if this content is what people wanted, and they could manage their expectations realistically (ie: more specialization comes at the cost of versatility), then this is what merchants would be making. the truth is that the merchants make what the customers want to buy. 

over the years ive seen a few industry pros come in here thinking theyre going to take the MP by storm, dump high end specialized content on the MP. they end up barely making any sales simply because they havent invested enough time in 'poserizing' it, its too complicated to use, takes too long to render, takes too much user intervention/tweaking, etc. just look at some of the clothing thats selling well on the MP: they are not necessarily the most skillfully made, most professional, most detailed or elaborate clothing items. its generally the inexpensive, revealing ones with a ton of morphs for every vicky FBM under the sun and added features like stripping them off. you could spend 6 months making a photorealistic ball gown, that was a hybrid conformer and required the user to run the skirt through the cloth room, and it would sell only a handful of copies. but upload the 150th vicky tank top with all the V4 and ++ breast morphs, plus breast flash morphs and itll sell like hotcakes.

Quote -  but upload the 150th vicky tank top with all the V4 and ++ breast morphs, plus breast flash morphs and itll sell like hotcakes.

 

lol yep - and that's exactly what separates the amateurs from the pros. 

poser is little more than interactive hustler, for 90% of its users.

 

~Shane

Indeed

But my point with Morgan Freeman example there was simply regarding painted skin textures over photographically derived ones I guess...

I think that some Poser skin looks either too much like montaged photos OR it's too visible that it's been painted.

Either way, I guess it's down to skill and the care and attention that's applied more than the approach...

creating good textures is a lot more involved than just matching photos to a seam guide in photoshop, which is what a lot of vendors do, making them more of a vendor and less of an artist. It takes a lot of time and patience focusing on every inch of the skin from head to toe. A decent full body texture can easily take a good month or two to get right, not counting the added work in the materials room, and most vendors won't spend that much time on it, because they know the most they can expect from it is about $8 bucks per sale, $10 if they're lucky. Profit has to justify time invested. 

The z-brush artist that did the morgan freeman texture wasn't worrying about how much money he was going to make off of it - he was more concerned about demonstrating his skills as an artist, to add a new piece to his portfolio, to land him the next gig, so that he doesn't have to resort to making v4 textures for $8 bucks a pop.

 

~Shane

He also painted from scratch, just looking at the photo references, as I understand from the thread?

The gist I get is that, because he had the skill to do that, it took him a fraction of the time?

Quote - The gist I get is that, because he had the skill to do that, it took him a fraction of the time?

 

Actually i think that's entirely subjective. Just depends on the skills and experience of the artist as to how much time something takes to complete. Hand painting isn't necessarily any more or less easier or quicker than using photos, both are just different techniques used to acheive the same end result. The best photo-based textures almost always have some sort of clean up or post work done to the images, but that doesn't mean that it is any longer or shorter of a process than trying to paint everything by hand to a photo real level of detail. 

Texturing a head model also is not the same as texturing an entire body that needs to look good clothed as well as naked. 

Lighting also plays a huge role in how good a texture looks in its final render, and is - or can be - an art form all its own.

 

~Shane

Wow, did I start a discussion! I went to bed last night after I started the thread, but I didn't expect so much reactions. Thank you for all the replies. From what I have read so far, the darker/redder tone of the legs is not unnatural and is caused by using photoreference. I can understand that when a model stands for a long time for making photos, her blood sinks in her legs and giving it the reddish tone, and legs are most of the time more tanned then the rest of the body caused by wearing shorts or short skirts.

I totally agree with Blackhearted's arguments that a natural skin has an uneven color over the whole body.

But... some textures have so much difference between the upper and lower part, it almost looks as if two different photosets where used.  If I want to pose a nude model that's lying down and with a pale skin I can hardly use these kind of textures, or I have to use some complicated maskshader. With a clothed or tanned model the diifference in tone would be less noticeable. Perhaps is this the reason why a lot of glamour models wear stockings.

Bopper.

 

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Here's the problem with burned in shadows and highlights.

Top: the geometry.

Middle: with a half-decent texture.

Bottom: an awful texture, and this is after a fair amount of remedial work. It's an extreme example but I'm not going to be able to use it.

---

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

The shape of the various structures should be making most of those shadows. Having them burned in like that almost always makes it look like dirt rings, like the model hasn't bathed in quite a while, because they don't change as the model changes position or pose. 

The healing brushes in conjunction with the dodge and burn tools could help a lot with that. 

If you're texturing for a video game then you'd be more likely to burn in details like that, because game characters are too low poly to really build a lot of those structures, but not for poser-ing. 

 

~Shane

Even Poser meshes are too low-poly to be used without any burned in highlights or shadows, that's why both figures and clothing often look so unconvincing even compared to "fully painted" low res game characters.

If you want realistic results without burned in highlights, you have to supply an elaborate displacement map instead, like those folks on the CG-Talk frontpages do.

How else would Poser be able to properly recreate those highlights ?

As most Poser artists can't do that, I'd rather see them keep on using burned in highlights and shadows to fake real highlights and shadows.

Of course there are textures out there that have really strong and obvious highlights, sometimes even enhanced in Photoshop.

I avoid using them myself. Or to be more specific, at least for the body.

But you can't just say: "Get rid of all your highlights and everything will be fine."

If you remove something on one end (The texture), you have to add something elsewhere. (The mesh).

 

 

 

Watching this thread with interest. There is much here to learn.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

if I find a set with baked in highlights/shadows I return it.  This isnt the 90's any more .. if an artist making skins can't make displacement and bump maps its about time they figured it out or left the market.

I want all the items in my scene reactive to the lightning .. that means, skin, hair, clothing ..everything.  If it isnt either I have to retexture it, or spend time repainting after the render is done.  And who has time?

If I'm paying for a set, I'm paying for it to be made properly

and no, you do not need zbrush or c4d or anything exciting to make displacement maps .. just an image editor and an application of brains.

Lyrra

I think Fenrissa did a pretty good job on her latest Merchant Resource... I don't really use MR's anymore I usually use my own, but I might actually buy this one:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/merchant-resource---fresh-pink---for-v4-2-aiko-4-genesis/95399

What do y'all think?

I'd definitely, personally, like to see more sculpted displacement.... er, I think.

What are the pitfalls of sculpted displacement though? e.g. can it become necessary to swap maps for different ranges of pose or facial expression?

One question I have, also, on displacement maps....

If a character texture provided a displacement map, would it be technically possible for me, as an end-user, but one that is using ZBrush and / or Photoshop CS5 Extended, to make fine adjustments to that?? (I'd guess so, eh? As Lyrra notes, Gimp and my powers of interpretation might be adequate too... well, mine might not. LOL)

Given that 4000 x 4000 pixel maps are standard for an end-product, perhaps merchant resources, or the developer resources that come with new figures should be more in the 8000 x 8000 pixel range or higher?

Would there be merit in the diffuse colour map components of merchant resources being HDR or EXE format (and actually containing HDR data)?

In terms of making skin textures more procedurally structured...

Could we have painted control maps that designate the proportion of redness / blueness that is added / subtracted to areas of the base colour map, based on blood flow?

I am thinking you would need a range of maps for different poses or facial expressions... as muscle movement affects blood flow at the capilliary level.

You could maybe have a colour ramp node (I think that's the node I mean) selecting the different blood flow maps, that is linked by ERC to joint bending or expression morph dials??

If the above form of map swapping automation was possible (is it??) then the same mechanism could perhaps control the selection of displacement maps.

Ideally the basis of such as system, if it were possible, in terms of some base displacement maps / bloodflow maps, would be provided in a core developer kit by the figure developer I suppose...??

Just brainstorming here

Quote - > Quote - The gist I get is that, because he had the skill to do that, it took him a fraction of the time?

Actually i think that's entirely subjective. Just depends on the skills and experience of the artist as to how much time something takes to complete. Hand painting isn't necessarily any more or less easier or quicker than using photos, both are just different techniques used to acheive the same end result. The best photo-based textures almost always have some sort of clean up or post work done to the images, but that doesn't mean that it is any longer or shorter of a process than trying to paint everything by hand to a photo real level of detail. 

Texturing a head model also is not the same as texturing an entire body that needs to look good clothed as well as naked. 

Lighting also plays a huge role in how good a texture looks in its final render, and is - or can be - an art form all its own.

~Shane

Thanks Shane, that's a nice, concise clarification, I think

Quote - The shape of the various structures should be making most of those shadows. Having them burned in like that almost always makes it look like dirt rings, like the model hasn't bathed in quite a while, because they don't change as the model changes position or pose. 

The healing brushes in conjunction with the dodge and burn tools could help a lot with that. 

If you're texturing for a video game then you'd be more likely to burn in details like that, because game characters are too low poly to really build a lot of those structures, but not for poser-ing. 

~Shane

Totally... and surely the same goes for burnt in highlights? Surely these just shouldn't be there now?

As soon as one is using fresnel reflections etc, for real reflection based highlights, via EZSkin, any burnt in highlights are just going to mess this up?

Anything in the way of highlights should all be purged and "extracted" or referenced into a specular map, I would have thought?

I fully take in what Joe notes too... that the Poser mesh just isn't necessarily there to fully, properly support all this... hmmm...

...so, it seems to me, then, that more use of displacement is the only real option, in that case?

 

This is my "Muscular M3".

The darker texture is the default M3 DAZ tex which is very "sanitized" and has no highlights at all.

The lighter texture is a modification of the old DAZ 2nd Gen PreTeen Vicky (!) tex and has "some" burned in specularity.

Shaders are identical on both figures and there is no displacement map, just EZSkin.

Personally, the M3 texture just looks too bland to me, and I wouldn't use it in my renders "as is", i.e. without a high end displacement map that could restore the information that was lost by editing out the highlights.

 

Cool

I guess in your Muscular M3 example Joe, the little bit of specularity that is burnt in there, in the right hand example, is almost serving in the same way as doing a bit of postwork would? In a way...

But I'm guessing your own modifications to the texture have taken care of any areas where burnt in highlight or shadow would conflict, rather than augment, your use of it too??

I guess the real problem with burnt in highlights and shadows is when there is conflict though... as CSpear demonstrated.

I'm also guessing though, that, if we did have those high end displacement maps... we wouldn't necessarily escape the kind of issues that burnt in effects can have... as we would probably need a selection of displacement maps for different poses or expressions.

Skin wrinkles, folds and extra muscle definition added via displacement is going to be equally burnt in to each map, isn't it?

I suppose, one of the main benefits of properly committing to the displacement method though, is that it is fully independent of lighting and colour.

Ideally, it would be good if texture and colour can be separated out more or less altogether, I think?

Bump maps are for small, tiny, details ... pores, small hairs, moles, muscle striation, very fine wrinkles. The kind of surface variaiton that could be buffed out with sandpaper

Displacement is for midlevel details - large hairs, distended veins, knuckle and palm folds, painted on clothing, deep (age) wrinkles. 

Modeling is for large shapes - definition of form, definition of muscle and bone, very deep wrinkles

The amount of detail and clarity in your displacement maps has to do with the size of the image - nothing to do with the underlying polycount of the figure, which is a common misconception

And for completeness sake - bump and displacement maps are for surface changes in up-down (in-out) only.  Normal maps are used for more complex image driven transformations

The main issue with baked in highlights, is that there are times when they do not match the lighting of the scene and it is jarring.

"I'm also guessing though, that, if we did have those high end displacement maps... we wouldn't necessarily escape the kind of issues that burnt in effects can have... as we would probably need a selection of displacement maps for different poses or expressions."

I find that not true - morphs account for most of the changes an expression makes. Displacement details on the face are usually fairly subtle, except on aged faces where there are already morphs at work aging the structure.

"Skin wrinkles, folds and extra muscle definition added via displacement is going to be equally burnt in to each map, isn't it?" 

Yes and well thats the point isnt it? having this driven by the maps instead of the modeling makes it possible to take a figure from super buff muscle man with every vein popped out, to a skinny hairy guy with every rib showing

Part of the entire point of poser base figures is flexibility. This is why v4/m4 base shape is so bland, so the user can add their morphs and maps and transform it into something else entirely. If your base shape is superbuff, making it into anything else is a titantic struggle

Lyrra

Quote - The main issue with baked in highlights, is that there are times when they do not match the lighting of the scene and it is jarring.

That's an issue but I have not found it to be a main issue. For me, the main issue is that a subtle burned-in highlight, when found on the diffuse color map, and used to drive diffuse color properly, as in the scatter surface color, ends up looking like a disease, not a misplaced highlight.

I shall repeat:

It is not a misplaced highlight that I object to. It is the appearance of a disease that I object to.

I have shown this a couple dozen times. Search.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Example:

Search for posts by me, using the word disease.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2841702&page=2#message_3878035

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Then the obvious solution would be to split the current textures into a separate specularity map derived from the burned in highlights and a basic skin texture without any specularity ?

On second thought, couldn't you "tell" your shader to simply ignore each part of the texture that has too much white (=specularity) in it ?

Like your shader already ignores (the darker) bodyhair ?