I've followed the DSON importer release, but since Genesis was released several months ago, could someone identify the advantages of switching over from V4/M4 to Genesis in regards to a Poser user?

I have the V4 weight mapped version, and a version of V4 that has "Perfect" line of corrections in it. I have EZSkin and PP2012. All this makes for a pretty nice set-up, but I'm willing to look into a new figure if improvements could be identified.

Since Genesis first came out only for DAZ Studio users, I and probably some others, really paid little attention to the improvements. Perhaps now would be a good time to reiterate what those were (Does it bend better? Is it more anatomically correct?). I would want to know in terms of Genesis use inside Poser via the DSON importer, so only those improvements in that regard are requested (i.e. some of Genesis improvements won't carry over as I understand it).

Thanks for the help

The main advantage of Genesis is the unimesh feature. Compared to WM V4 the WM features of Genesis are a bit better but not as significant, for many users, to inspire a jump. Others might feel that the joint system is a big improvement that justifies the update. It depends on how you use the model.

The unimesh feature though is nice. The ability to dial morph from several characters opens up a lot of possibilities. There is also better UV map support, although I'm not sure that that feature works in Poser yet.

Of course for Studio users there is the advantage of having Genesis pre-loaded with the application so, cost-wise, it's very attractive, now that V4 is a paid product.

Hope this helps.

Paolo

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It bends a whole lot better :) On the downside, the products for it a a lot more expensive than what you're used to lately, tho you've been around for a long while so you may still remember when they were about as expensive as now in the beginning ;).

Laurie

Quote - ....The unimesh feature though is nice. The ability to dial morph from several characters opens up a lot of possibilities. ...

Okay that's good. I hadn't thought about that...Thanks

Quote - It bends a whole lot better :) On the downside, the products for it a a lot more expensive than what you're used to lately, tho you've been around for a long while so you may still remember when they were about as expensive as now in the beginning ;).

Laurie

Okay. I wonder if anyone has any side by side comparions of the bending to show? Might be interesting to see if anyone does.

Thanks

In my opion.. one adantage that genesis has it the unimesh ... It can take a lot of morphs, and the clothing bought for this figure ( also hair ) are taking it's morphs. Which spares buying separate fits and morphs packages for the clothing.

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Quote - In my opion.. one adantage that genesis has it the unimesh ... It can take a lot of morphs, and the clothing bought for this figure ( also hair ) are taking it's morphs. Which spares buying separate fits and morphs packages for the clothing.

Yeah, that's a good point...okay thanks...

I'm not sure anyone is going to be able to give you a complete list of advantages over V4WM. While I respect the views of others in this forum 'bends better' is very subjective and it also depneds on what you render. For instance I rarely do renders with nude characters so even V4WM has limited impact for me. V4WM with the perfect series you use does help in most renders in some way even fully clothed so I use them a lot.

I stress I do not use Genesis myself but from comments form others I do see a great advantage if you decide to create aliens or other creatures. Most of my reluctance to using Genesis is the fact that I know there will be a large finacial outlay to make it a worthwhile purchase, as with most other new figures, and I have yet to see what it can provide for my type of render that V4WM cannot.

That said, now that Genesis is in Poser there could well be something that I would regard as a 'must have'. It would be a good idea to keep an eye on the other thread 'Poser heaven has arrived' as there are renders from Poser now being posted that might be of interest.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - I'm not sure anyone is going to be able to give you a complete list of advantages over V4WM. While I respect the views of others in this forum 'bends better' is very subjective and it also depneds on what you render. For instance I rarely do renders with nude characters so even V4WM has limited impact for me. V4WM with the perfect series you use does help in most renders in some way even fully clothed so I use them a lot.

I stress I do not use Genesis myself but from comments form others I do see a great advantage if you decide to create aliens or other creatures. Most of my reluctance to using Genesis is the fact that I know there will be a large finacial outlay to make it a worthwhile purchase, as with most other new figures, and I have yet to see what it can provide for my type of render that V4WM cannot.

That said, now that Genesis is in Poser there could well be something that I would regard as a 'must have'. It would be a good idea to keep an eye on the other thread 'Poser heaven has arrived' as there are renders from Poser now being posted that might be of interest.

Yes, I tend to agree. I'm not asking for a complete list of advantages, but there's always the euphoria for "Let's get the new figure because it's NEW." that I wanted to get around. Any objective thoughts or reasons as to why to switch are welcome. I appreciate that we are only a day after the release of DSON product, so some responses are only subjective right now, but I thought I'd ask.

Thanks

This is a very useful thread. Thanks.

Still not entirely clear on what I need to actually use Genesis. Like Mark, I just haven't been paying attention. Genesis is The Land of Confusion for me. ;-)

The "figures" for Genesis, like V5 and M5...are they actual figures, or should I think of them as morph packs?

Quote - This is a very useful thread. Thanks.

Still not entirely clear on what I need to actually use Genesis. Like Mark, I just haven't been paying attention. Genesis is The Land of Confusion for me. ;-)

The "figures" for Genesis, like V5 and M5...are they actual figures, or should I think of them as morph packs?

Anything other than the base genesis figure is a morph. Some of the stuff on Daz's site are updated, some aren't. It says so on the product page if they are.

The free importer comes with some morphs already.

Laurie

Thanks

I totally understand where you are coming from and, as you see from my comments, I am much in the same boat as I want to know why I would upgrade to Genesis other than just to throw money around. Unfortunately, because of the history, it seems to be so much more difficult to answer than with any other new figure. Even with the new importer there appears to be some benefits to Genesis that will only be available if used in Daz Studio. The morphs are also saved in a different manner to the previous figures so if you have a favorite figure, as I have, this appears to be another hurdle. I say hurdle because it does appear to be a way of doing it but at extra expense. If I have to jump through more hoops to use my favorite character this drops Genesis down on my list of interest.

Don't get me wrong, I think is is great that Daz and SM have worked together to bring Genesis to Poser and I am sure some many will find it fun to use, I am just not sure I am one of them.......yet.

Anyway thanks for posting the question and i wait with interest to see your decision.

Quote - This is a very useful thread. Thanks.

Still not entirely clear on what I need to actually use Genesis. Like Mark, I just haven't been paying attention. Genesis is The Land of Confusion for me. ;-)

The "figures" for Genesis, like V5 and M5...are they actual figures, or should I think of them as morph packs?

I wish we could have more threads like this - a real breath of fresh air, useful, informative, non-partisan and mature; I hope it stays that way!

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Well, I am looking at it as a replacement for the Gen3 and Gen4 figures (I have around 100 characters for each mesh (even Luke & Laura).

As I understand it, with Genesis Generation X and the Gen3 add on, I can use the genesis figure with the morph sets (V3, M3, SP3, D3 etc head and body morphs) - I'll keep the figures, but have better bending (which I don't really care about - my characters keep their clothes on) and can use Gen4 & Gen5 maps (much more useful, as far as I am concerned).

I am not impressed with V5 or M5 figures - they look too similar to Gen4 figures; with respect to monsters that can be made w/genesis, - If I need a monster, I'll go with a purpose made monster - but that is my (admittedly minority) viewpoint on it.

Let me just add a comment. Architecturally Genesis is a good improvement but, as we know, Poser has adopted Weight Mapping too, so there is nothing that prevents using that technology with any other figure. V4 is an example but designers of new figures can take advantage of Poser's WM to design from scratch and create figures that bend very naturally. How much of an advantage Genesis has over a solution like that is hard to know but I wouldn't think it would be that much, if any. This is about the bending features, I'm not talking about the unimesh feature.

What is of immediate advantage to people is the array of characters that have been released recently for Genesis. That is the main advantage, IMHO. While V5/M5 are two examples, there are others, like the Gorilla, a few cartoon shapes etc. that might be of interest. So, the main advantage is choice and, now that Poser has support for it, freedom of choice of 3D app. It's not groundbraking, WM technologies were available in high-end 3D apps before, but it is a nice addition to the toolset.

Hope this helps.

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Quote - Let me just add a comment. Architecturally Genesis is a good improvement but, as we know, Poser has adopted Weight Mapping too, so there is nothing that prevents using that technology with any other figure. V4 is an example but designers of new figures can take advantage of Poser's WM to design from scratch and create figures that bend very naturally. How much of an advantage Genesis has over a solution like that is hard to know but I wouldn't think it would be that much, if any. This is about the bending features, I'm not talking about the unimesh feature.

What is of immediate advantage to people is the array of characters that have been released recently for Genesis. That is the main advantage, IMHO. While V5/M5 are two examples, there are others, like the Gorilla, a few cartoon shapes etc. that might be of interest. So, the main advantage is choice and, now that Poser has support for it, freedom of choice of 3D app. It's not groundbraking, WM technologies were available in high-end 3D apps before, but it is a nice addition to the toolset.

Hope this helps.

If I might add to this ... I think the strength of the Genesis figures lies in the ability for the clothing to "follow" the figures, without having to add additional morphs to the clothing. I haven't tested it out yet as I am still installing all of the content and morphs slowly, as time permits (it's not my main focus today so I'm doing it a little at a time).

But it's my understanding that you won't have to create custom clothing morphs for custom characters, which is what makes it uniquely unique. However ... also from what I understand, the content creation and rigging has to be done in DS4.5 to make it compatible with the DSON format, and have it work in BOTH Poser and DAZ Studio.

Quote - > Quote - This is a very useful thread. Thanks.

Still not entirely clear on what I need to actually use Genesis. Like Mark, I just haven't been paying attention. Genesis is The Land of Confusion for me. ;-)

The "figures" for Genesis, like V5 and M5...are they actual figures, or should I think of them as morph packs?

Anything other than the base genesis figure is a morph. Some of the stuff on Daz's site are updated, some aren't. It says so on the product page if they are.

The free importer comes with some morphs already.

Laurie

You bring up a point I am not clear on. I understand that there are V4/M4 morphs and I think V3/M3 morphs and such for Genesis, but those only yield figures that look like their old DAZ counterparts. The mesh itself doesn't change. The polycount and nodes for V4's head is different than Genesis, so the old existing morphs I have for V4's face won't work on the Genesis face after the V4 morph is applied. Is that correct?

Thanks

So, something like the Onyx dress at DAZ, which is for the "Genesis female" - I could actually use it on any Genesis figure, not just the females? The gorilla, the Neanderthal, the troll?

Quote - You bring up a point I am not clear on. I understand that there are V4/M4 morphs and I think V3/M3 morphs and such for Genesis, but those only yield figures that look like their old DAZ counterparts. The mesh itself doesn't change. The polycount and nodes for V4's head is different than Genesis, so the old existing morphs I have for V4's face won't work on the Genesis face after the V4 morph is applied. Is that correct?

Thanks

Correct the old morphs do not work on Genesis even with the corresponding shapes. However, you can use the GenX plugin for DAZ Studio to transfer those morphs to Genesis. I have transferred most of the Generation 4 morphs and some Generation 3 ones without any issues. Once they are transferred they work in Poser, too.

Ciao

> Quote - So, something like the Onyx dress at DAZ, which is for the "Genesis female" - I could actually use it on any Genesis figure, not just the females? The gorilla, the Neanderthal, the troll?

Yes, that is correct. With extreme shapes you might get some poke-through issues though. In DAZ Studio you can fix that with the "collision modifier". However, that function is at least currently not available in Poser. The morph brush in poser might help there.

The attached image shows a of quick and dirty example done in Poser: Troll Kid mix

Quote - So, something like the Onyx dress at DAZ, which is for the "Genesis female" - I could actually use it on any Genesis figure, not just the females? The gorilla, the Neanderthal, the troll?

That's my understanding, yes, Genesis clothing is sort of "universal." ... don't quote me on it though because I haven't actually had the chance to try it yet. But that IS exactly what is going on in this pic from the "Poser Heaven has Arrived?" thread on page7 ...

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/media/folder_10/file_487570.jpg

> Quote - The attached image shows a of quick and dirty example done in Poser: Troll Kid mix

I am REALLY glad I didn't have a mouthful of soda when I tried this one ...

"Troll with Scoopback Mini"

No fixes yet after applying the "Transfer Active Morphs" script in Poser. The pokethrough is negligible and easily fixed with the morph brush.

LMAO

Hahahahahahahaha!! It's sad what types of jobs you have to do to feed the little trolls. LOL

queues stripper's music

Laurie

Quote - Hahahahahahahaha!! It's sad what types of jobs you have to do to feed the little trolls. LOL

queues stripper's music

Laurie

LOL Hey, a mom's gotta do what a mom's gotta do! ;-)

I think I laughed for quite a bit over that one. LOL

One of the things I have to follow up on, is the pokethrough on the chest doesn't show up until after rendering. Have to check my display settings, or perhaps the display mode.

I don't know that it represents much of a change from V4WM for me. V4WM bends really well, but honestly, I haven't bothered to convert most of my female V4 characters to weight-mapping because the vast majority of my renders simply don't require it.

I've been playing around with the Genesis figure all day, and I like the fact that it can take the the MATs and hair from older figures.

But clothes? That's another matter.

Quote - I don't know that it represents much of a change from V4WM for me. V4WM bends really well, but honestly, I haven't bothered to convert most of my female V4 characters to weight-mapping because the vast majority of my renders simply don't require it.

I've been playing around with the Genesis figure all day, and I like the fact that it can take the the MATs and hair from older figures.

But clothes? That's another matter.

I think that raises another question. Is there a means to make older V4 clothing fit the Genesis figure? Even if the Genesis is morphed to V4, the meshes are different, so some conversion is necessary I would think. Will we need a Wardrobe Wizard update to handle that? Maybe one is in works?

Thanks

I think you can do it in DS and then export it for Poser.

Laurie

Quote - There is also better UV map support, although I'm not sure that that feature works in Poser yet.

It does work in Poser. For example applying the material preset for Basic Male (included) switches Genesis to the M4 UV set. Applying the material preset for Basic Child switches genesis to the K4 UV set. Genesis starts with the V4 UV set, but the Basic Female preset will switch to the V4 UV set. V5, M5, the Troll, Anubis, and quite a few others all have their own UV sets which are set up to take better advantage of their shapes.

Hee-hee!

Well, I guess that could be useful if you didn't want to keep buying WW support packs.

Still not sure Genesis offers anything I really need, though. So much of the Genesis stuff seems to be copies of the Gen4 stuff. And it's so expensive, even on sale. I think I'd rather save my money for more Dinoraul dinosaurs.

Though if he starts making Genesis dinosaurs, I'm in. (Is that possible?)

I wonder why we didn't get a Genesis Cube on April Fools day ...

Or was there one?

A couple of reasons to look at Genesis.

There are shapes you just can't do with Mil 4 figures.

For example Anubis, the Troll, Garul, MS Lycan, etc. While you could do one of these as an individual figure it would, normally, get little to no support. When it is based on Genesis it has all the support of the base figure.

Tri-Ax is more that just Weight Mapped Rigging. Yes it is weight mapped rigging, and yes Tri-Ax means it has different maps for each of the three bend axes. But it also moves center and end points to account for changing the length of bones. And it has a few other cool little innovative features. (Which is why Genesis won 3DWorld magazine's Software innovation of the year for 2011.)

Then there is the Catmull-Clark Sub-D algorithm. That isn't just make more polys, it adds polys where they are needed because of a bend and not where they aren't needed.

When it comes to what Poser and DAZ Studio users in particular and CG artists in General have come to expect from human figures, Genesis is a whole new level of capability.

Quote - A couple of reasons to look at Genesis.

There are shapes you just can't do with Mil 4 figures.

For example Anubis, the Troll, Garul, MS Lycan, etc. While you could do one of these as an individual figure it would, normally, get little to no support. When it is based on Genesis it has all the support of the base figure.

Tri-Ax is more that just Weight Mapped Rigging. Yes it is weight mapped rigging, and yes Tri-Ax means it has different maps for each of the three bend axes. But it also moves center and end points to account for changing the length of bones. And it has a few other cool little innovative features. (Which is why Genesis won 3DWorld magazine's Software innovation of the year for 2011.)

Then there is the Catmull-Clark Sub-D algorithm. That isn't just make more polys, it adds polys where they are needed because of a bend and not where they aren't needed.

When it comes to what Poser and DAZ Studio users in particular and CG artists in General have come to expect from human figures, Genesis is a whole new level of capability.

Okay thanks. Does all of this carry over into Poser though, through the DSON process? It would seem like Poser itself would have to be updated to handle some of these features like the Sub-D algorithm meshing. Are you saying that adaptive meshing is built into the figure itself then?

Thanks

IMO the perceived improvement in bending comes from the sub-d function, not weight painting. Sub-d not only subdivides the mesh it also smooths out the vertices. A lot of the creasing and bunching up of the mesh that happens without sub-d is smoothed over. I used the V3RR and M3RR figures for a long time with Studio and with sub-d applied they looked just as good if not better than the high-poly versions. Of course the bending doesn't look any more realistic it just looks less strange or noticably weird.

Quote - > Quote - A couple of reasons to look at Genesis.

There are shapes you just can't do with Mil 4 figures.

For example Anubis, the Troll, Garul, MS Lycan, etc. While you could do one of these as an individual figure it would, normally, get little to no support. When it is based on Genesis it has all the support of the base figure.

Tri-Ax is more that just Weight Mapped Rigging. Yes it is weight mapped rigging, and yes Tri-Ax means it has different maps for each of the three bend axes. But it also moves center and end points to account for changing the length of bones. And it has a few other cool little innovative features. (Which is why Genesis won 3DWorld magazine's Software innovation of the year for 2011.)

Then there is the Catmull-Clark Sub-D algorithm. That isn't just make more polys, it adds polys where they are needed because of a bend and not where they aren't needed.

When it comes to what Poser and DAZ Studio users in particular and CG artists in General have come to expect from human figures, Genesis is a whole new level of capability.

Okay thanks. Does all of this carry over into Poser though, through the DSON process? It would seem like Poser itself would have to be updated to handle some of these features like the Sub-D algorithm meshing. Are you saying that adaptive meshing is built into the figure itself then?

Thanks

Yes, it all comes over. Yes, the devs at DAZ found a way to cheat hard on the Catmull-Clark Sub-D, it works in Poser as a function of the importer. (So you won't get one or more levels in the view port and additional levels at render time, they will all have to be in the viewport. Note for best performance set your Sub-D level to -1 while you are working then set it to 1 or 2 when it is time to render.)

Quote - IMO the perceived improvement in bending comes from the sub-d function, not weight painting. Sub-d not only subdivides the mesh it also smooths out the vertices. A lot of the creasing and bunching up of the mesh that happens without sub-d is smoothed over. I used the V3RR and M3RR figures for a long time with Studio and with sub-d applied they looked just as good if not better than the high-poly versions. Of course the bending doesn't look any more realistic it just looks less strange or noticably weird.

In the case of Genesis it is both the Sub-D and the Weight painting. One or the other would not give you the realistic bends Genesis has by itself.

I do believe we had a thread asking exactly this question a couple of months ago.

My answer is the same: "niche" figures, such as kids, monsters, and males, are better supported (and will continue to be better supported in the future) in Genesis because the clothing is essentially universal. The amount of clothing released in the last year that fits male (and kid) figures has dwarfed previous years, even if, at times, the buttons are on the wrong side of the shirt.

If you just want to render Victoria, I'm not sure there's that much of an advantage.

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OK I'm sorry, I lost the thread (and the page) ... what are the steps again to load a gen. 4 texture onto gen. 5? I want to use an M4 texture on M5.

All you need to do is apply the Basic Male Tex preset located in Materials and that sets the M4 uvs. Then apply your textures and you should be good to go ;)

Laurie

Ah that was it. Thanks 8-)

OOOPS!!! Maybe not. I don't see a "Basic" texture in the library ... I see a Sample Jeremy, is that the one?

EDIT ... yes, that was the one. Got it!

Quote - Hee-hee!

Well, I guess that could be useful if you didn't want to keep buying WW support packs.

Still not sure Genesis offers anything I really need, though. So much of the Genesis stuff seems to be copies of the Gen4 stuff. And it's so expensive, even on sale. I think I'd rather save my money for more Dinoraul dinosaurs.

Though if he starts making Genesis dinosaurs, I'm in. (Is that possible?)

I don't worry about WW support packs - I already own almost every one of them, being an early adaptor of Wardrobe Wizard.

I see you noticed that DAZ vendors are recyling Gen4 content - don't point that out in a DAZ forum - the mods will send you a nastygram.

Quote - Ah that was it. Thanks 8-)

OOOPS!!! Maybe not. I don't see a "Basic" texture in the library ... I see a Sample Jeremy, is that the one?

EDIT ... yes, that was the one. Got it!

Yes, that's it. I apologize. LOL. Right place, wrong name ;)

Laurie

Quote - I do believe we had a thread asking exactly this question a couple of months ago.

My answer is the same: "niche" figures, such as kids, monsters, and males, are better supported (and will continue to be better supported in the future) in Genesis because the clothing is essentially universal. The amount of clothing released in the last year that fits male (and kid) figures has dwarfed previous years, even if, at times, the buttons are on the wrong side of the shirt.

If you just want to render Victoria, I'm not sure there's that much of an advantage.

My questions (and those of others posted here) had more to do with the advantages of those aspects of Genesis, available now to Poser users, via the new DSON process. As an example, I don't believe the sub-D feature was available a couple of months back (via the cr2 exporter). Thanks for re-posting your views from before.

Quote - All you need to do is apply the Basic Male Tex preset located in Materials and that sets the M4 uvs. Then apply your textures and you should be good to go ;)

Laurie

Are the body part names, material zones, and such the same so EZSKIN can be used?

Thanks

Quote - Are the body part names, material zones, and such the same so EZSKIN can be used?

Thanks

yes it can use the gen 4 ...um set... sorry don't have access to poser right now and I can't remember what they are called. Ezskin won't recognize it as such but you can tell it to use that and you'll be fine.

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I don't understand why no one talks about the huge advantages for the content providers. Over the years the Gen4 system has grown more and more convoluted with a lot of essential and useful information hidden away in obscure threads. That makes it very hard for new talent the "old timers" (I don't mean in years) have all the advantage. You can spend hours rigging a figure but if you run it through a pose collection a bunch of errors show up. And that is valid for ALL bought content.

This very morning I rigged a figure for Genesis in 5 min and ran it through 50 poses without a single poke through. I know that everyone is first and foremost thinking of themselves but still. That it becomes so much better and easier to create content is bound to reflect in the prices (eventually.) And allow us to concentrate on more important things like details..

Quote - > Quote - All you need to do is apply the Basic Male Tex preset located in Materials and that sets the M4 uvs. Then apply your textures and you should be good to go ;)

Laurie

Are the body part names, material zones, and such the same so EZSKIN can be used?

Thanks

Yes.

Quote - I don't understand why no one talks about the huge advantages for the content providers.

....

Because he wasn't asking for the advantages for content providers. He was asking for a non-combative comparison of the pros and cons.

Laurie

Quote - Well, I am looking at it as a replacement for the Gen3 and Gen4 figures (I have around 100 characters for each mesh (even Luke & Laura).

As I understand it, with Genesis Generation X and the Gen3 add on, I can use the genesis figure with the morph sets (V3, M3, SP3, D3 etc head and body morphs) - I'll keep the figures, but have better bending (which I don't really care about - my characters keep their clothes on) and can use Gen4 & Gen5 maps (much more useful, as far as I am concerned).

I am not impressed with V5 or M5 figures - they look too similar to Gen4 figures; with respect to monsters that can be made w/genesis, - If I need a monster, I'll go with a purpose made monster - but that is my (admittedly minority) viewpoint on it.

All your images feature long pants, long sleeved turtlenecked shirts and long hair? :) Sorry couldn't resist. Remember the clothing also has to be tri-ax to work and bends better too. :) (Plus it inherits the morphs from the figure, so you don't have to add, or the vendor doesn't have to add, the morphs to the clothing. )

Quote - Still not sure Genesis offers anything I really need, though. So much of the Genesis stuff seems to be copies of the Gen4 stuff. And it's so expensive, even on sale. I think I'd rather save my money for more Dinoraul dinosaurs. Though if he starts making Genesis dinosaurs, I'm in. (Is that possible?)

Actually it was only the initial run of clothing that was converted earlier clothing, the newer stuff is all Genesis. I doubt creating a Dinosaur on Genesis would be a good idea, however creating a dinosaur using Tri-ax rigging/weight mapping and Sub-D is entirely possible. (And, aside from clothing, would have most of the advantages of Genesis.) In fact if you did it right you could builld 2-4 base figures and morph the rest from those. Things like horns, spikes and tail clubs could be geografted on, etc. Very cool idea, make sure you pass that along to Dinoraul. :)

Just a few general facts about sub-d. The Catmull-Clark sub-d subdivides the entire mesh, not just parts of it. There are specialized sub-d types used by major CGI studio that can selectively subdivide a mesh but I don't see us getting them any time soon. Sub-d adds polygons but it does not add detail, if anything it actually smooths out some details. Take a cube for instance, add 1 level of sub-d and it clearly isn't a cube anymore, add enough levels of sub-d and begins to look more like a sphere.

Quote - Just a few general facts about sub-d. The Catmull-Clark sub-d subdivides the entire mesh, not just parts of it. There are specialized sub-d types used by major CGI studio that can selectively subdivide a mesh but I don't see us getting them any time soon. Sub-d adds polygons but it does not add detail, if anything it actually smooths out some details. Take a cube for instance, add 1 level of sub-d and it clearly isn't a cube anymore, add enough levels of sub-d and begins to look more like a sphere.

Actually, as described in this thread:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2855662&page=2

'Keep Edges' can retain the shape as you're subdividing.

Also Genesis deals more with subd cages. These are not really meshes but instructions of how the subd should handle the mesh. Subdividing a regular mesh may eventually smooth it out without keeping edges and lose detail, however cages may bring in more detail, which you can see if you look at some morphs at no subdivision version adding detail in since the cage is providing points of where move the mesh as well. (which is probably the simplistic explanation)

So, the cage acts like a lattice then.

Laurie

Quote - doubt creating a Dinosaur on Genesis would be a good idea, however creating a dinosaur using Tri-ax rigging/weight mapping and Sub-D is entirely possible. (And, aside from clothing, would have most of the advantages of Genesis.) In fact if you did it right you could builld 2-4 base figures and morph the rest from those. Things like horns, spikes and tail clubs could be geografted on, etc. Very cool idea, make sure you pass that along to Dinoraul. :)

I was wondering if it was possible for someone to make a quadruped base figure and morph it into anything from a mouse to an elephant.

And if not, it seems like the basic idea of Genesis would still be well-suited to a group of related animals like dinosaurs, where the "shared gene pool" is very visible. And where there's a lot of debate about how they really looked, so it would be good to able to easily change/add things.

Quote - Just a few general facts about sub-d. The Catmull-Clark sub-d subdivides the entire mesh, not just parts of it. There are specialized sub-d types used by major CGI studio that can selectively subdivide a mesh but I don't see us getting them any time soon. Sub-d adds polygons but it does not add detail, if anything it actually smooths out some details. Take a cube for instance, add 1 level of sub-d and it clearly isn't a cube anymore, add enough levels of sub-d and begins to look more like a sphere.

Interesting. Is that why Genesis figures have that super smooth look? Someone described it as looking like a blow-up doll. Unnecessarily rude, for sure, but I kind of see what he meant.

I'd love to see a quadroped Genesis, I reckon...

...there must be a lot of possibilities there.

But, just initially having a successor to the MilCat, MilDog, MilHorse, would be pretty good, I think...

"Travel Khaki", a first fast render of M5 dynamic cloth in Poser 2012 The outfit are meant to be both conforming and dynamic at the same time (without having two meshes). Starting with the dynamic version.

Quote - Interesting. Is that why Genesis figures have that super smooth look? Someone described it as looking like a blow-up doll. Unnecessarily rude, for sure, but I kind of see what he meant.

Not really. Most of what you've probably seen is people using GenX to copy over morphs from Gen4 characters without modifying them so they lose detail... copying high details to a lower poly character. You won't see the benefits until you leave the Gen4 morphs behind and start from genesis for creating your characters.

I would say that a pro of Genesis is it's easy adaptability... You can make a huge variety of creatures/characters without having to clutter up your runtimes with a multitude of standalone figures and morphs packs...

The downside is poly-count... much like the Gen 4 Figures, Genesis is higher poly meaning you can't use as many in a scene as you could with older figures, so it really depends on what you intend to use it for... for one or two people in a scene I'd say Genesis and the older Gen 4 figures work well... but if you want that crowd scene you'll probably still want to use the older figures as they aren't quite as resource intensive comparatively...

From my point of view Genesis is better for somethings and not for others.... but that's just my opinion... take it for what you will... :)

My best attempt at a unemotional response.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivision_surface.
You could look for subdividing mesh on you tube also.

Poser & D/S Pro supports Displacement maps but I've only seen a few venders use them.
No regular mesh can touch a displacement map.

Visit zBrush gallery and your see for your self ,what I am talking about.
Don't know how high the displacement map could go in Poser or D/S Pro.
If Poser or D/S Pro both could only go 1 million then they would be = for detail.

A lot of Artist that could be venders are not for deferent reasons.
Me personally I would not mess with any mesh that did not have SubD's.
V3 ,V4 are not considered standard meshes.
They have a polycount 4 times higher then a standard mesh.
Made them 4 times harder to deal with.

Since V5 ,Genesis is a standard mesh makes it 4 times easier to deal with.

If your a vender what mesh are you going to work with.
The old V4 that's a nightmare.
or
The new V5 that's a dream ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - I don't understand why no one talks about the huge advantages for the content providers. Over the years the Gen4 system has grown more and more convoluted with a lot of essential and useful information hidden away in obscure threads. That makes it very hard for new talent the "old timers" (I don't mean in years) have all the advantage. You can spend hours rigging a figure but if you run it through a pose collection a bunch of errors show up. And that is valid for ALL bought content.

This very morning I rigged a figure for Genesis in 5 min and ran it through 50 poses without a single poke through. I know that everyone is first and foremost thinking of themselves but still. That it becomes so much better and easier to create content is bound to reflect in the prices (eventually.) And allow us to concentrate on more important things like details..

I have been thinking about this, and wanted to follow up on this discussion a bit. Overall, yes, I admit the thought of not having to create FBMs for clothing are greatly appealing. But let me ask this ...

The most difficult body shapes to create morphs for are the drastic ones, like Pregnant or Heavy, or Emaciated, etc. Now, I can see that for the most part the "Autofit" (or whatever it's called) doesn't do that bad of a job. However, let's take something like Pregnant or Heavy for example.

When you model, say, a skirt or a dress for the base figure, there is a natural flow from waist to hem in the way that the skirt or dress flows. It will follow the shape from the top to (say) the belly button, and then gravity straightens the flow out from that point to the hem. (I hope this is making sense).

NOW ... if you "autofit" that skirt to a pregnant or heavy figure, "automatic" morphing methods don't account for the gravity. Instead, you'll get a bump from the waist to the crotch area (exactly the way that the morph for the figure was created). So the lines of the skirt no longer look "natural" ...

My question is, is there a way to compensate for those types of things in either DAZ Studio or Poser? It would seem to me that the only way you could make those shapes look more natural is to provide a dialable morph (it couldn't be automatic, because it wouldn't apply in all conditions).

SECOND QUESTION ... having the ability to model one set of clothing that fits all is rather cool; however, the main thing that I "see" right off the bat is, if you model clothing around a "flat chested" figure and then dial in those large breast dials that the community loves so much (LOL), then you have stretching big time in those areas. Polka dot and striped tops make this most noticeable. So it would seem to me that when clothing is primarily designed for women you'll want to UV map it in a state where the breasts are set to those of a woman, rather than when it's in its default "flat" shape. I haven't looked at the Content Creation tools in DS4.5, but I'm assuming it allows for exporting a morphed version of the figure so that you could UV map it in that state?

If the clothing IS suitable for both male and female (such as shirts, tank tops, jeans, etc etc etc), then it would probably be best to make two sets of UVs and corresponding textures.

Those are some questions that I have off the bat, I'm sure most content creators will have these as well. 8-)

Quote - > Quote - I don't understand why no one talks about the huge advantages for the content providers. Over the years the Gen4 system has grown more and more convoluted with a lot of essential and useful information hidden away in obscure threads. That makes it very hard for new talent the "old timers" (I don't mean in years) have all the advantage. You can spend hours rigging a figure but if you run it through a pose collection a bunch of errors show up. And that is valid for ALL bought content.

This very morning I rigged a figure for Genesis in 5 min and ran it through 50 poses without a single poke through. I know that everyone is first and foremost thinking of themselves but still. That it becomes so much better and easier to create content is bound to reflect in the prices (eventually.) And allow us to concentrate on more important things like details..

I have been thinking about this, and wanted to follow up on this discussion a bit. Overall, yes, I admit the thought of not having to create FBMs for clothing are greatly appealing. But let me ask this ...

The most difficult body shapes to create morphs for are the drastic ones, like Pregnant or Heavy, or Emaciated, etc. Now, I can see that for the most part the "Autofit" (or whatever it's called) doesn't do that bad of a job. However, let's take something like Pregnant or Heavy for example.

When you model, say, a skirt or a dress for the base figure, there is a natural flow from waist to hem in the way that the skirt or dress flows. It will follow the shape from the top to (say) the belly button, and then gravity straightens the flow out from that point to the hem. (I hope this is making sense).

NOW ... if you "autofit" that skirt to a pregnant or heavy figure, "automatic" morphing methods don't account for the gravity. Instead, you'll get a bump from the waist to the crotch area (exactly the way that the morph for the figure was created). So the lines of the skirt no longer look "natural" ...

My question is, is there a way to compensate for those types of things in either DAZ Studio or Poser? It would seem to me that the only way you could make those shapes look more natural is to provide a dialable morph (it couldn't be automatic, because it wouldn't apply in all conditions).

SECOND QUESTION ... having the ability to model one set of clothing that fits all is rather cool; however, the main thing that I "see" right off the bat is, if you model clothing around a "flat chested" figure and then dial in those large breast dials that the community loves so much (LOL), then you have stretching big time in those areas. Polka dot and striped tops make this most noticeable. So it would seem to me that when clothing is primarily designed for women you'll want to UV map it in a state where the breasts are set to those of a woman, rather than when it's in its default "flat" shape. I haven't looked at the Content Creation tools in DS4.5, but I'm assuming it allows for exporting a morphed version of the figure so that you could UV map it in that state?

If the clothing IS suitable for both male and female (such as shirts, tank tops, jeans, etc etc etc), then it would probably be best to make two sets of UVs and corresponding textures.

Those are some questions that I have off the bat, I'm sure most content creators will have these as well. 8-)

The truly extreme shape, at this point, is the Troll. Just because followers can read morphs from the base shape does not mean they have to. You can build any morphs into the clothing you wish if you don't like the appearance of the generated morphs and if the included morphs are set up as super confomring then the Genesis system uses the included morph instead of generating it.

Also note that for clothing, to date, nobody has set up seperate UV sets for those. Mostly because the UV set for the clothing is optimized for the individual items of clothing, not the Genesis shape. There is no reason you couldn't, but to date nobody making Genesis clothing has seen a need for it.

>>> Also note that for clothing, to date, nobody has set up seperate UV sets for those. Mostly because the UV set for the clothing is optimized for the individual items of clothing, not the Genesis shape. There is no reason you couldn't, but to date nobody making Genesis clothing has seen a need for it.

Understood. This is what I'm trying to assess ...

UV distortion when applied to heavily morphed figures is not an issue that is unique to Genesis. However, there IS a solution in being able to provide alternate UVs IF it is felt that they are needed.

To illustrate the point I'm trying to make, here's a screen shot.

--- On the left, you have a default "generic" figure. The UV mapping looks nice and clean.

--- In the middle, you see what happens to the UVs when it is applied to a female figure with medium/large breasts. You see stretching around the breasts, which is the type of thing that alternate UVs could help with.

--- On the right, the same model, with some relaxing that addresses the curvier shape of a female.

So what I'm trying to ask is ... is there a way to export the base mesh from DS after it is "autofitted" to a female so that one can provide default UVs that are more like the one on the right?

(Hope this better illustrates the question)

Hi Deecey,

There are different ways of making cloth for Genesis figures depending on skill and ambition.

The first level is the autofit. It is somewhat similar to Wardrobe Wizard. What shall we say? It is good that it exist so the the beginners are with us from start!
A somewhat better way is to use a modeling program to create a piece of cloth to fit the Genesis base figure where after you use the Transfer Utility to rig the cloth. Then this model can be used both for both Genesis base and V5/M5 and others. But it is not always 100 %.
The Content Providers way is that if you want a dress for V5 you must create a dress for V5! But you need also to make a companion Genesis piece with the same mesh. So proceed as 2) rig this Genesis figure, and then use Morph Loader pro to replace the generated V5 morph with your own customized V5 version.

Actually there is still one more method for extreme figures (Reverse Source Shape From Target). Take that another time.

The answer to your concerns about UVs is that you are not supposed to use two different figures with the same UV. The one that should be used is the one that it supported. The Genesis figure in the above example is only used as a tool during the creation process. For highest quality one figure is taylored to one and only one outfit. (the other way around of course ;)

Quote - Hi Deecey,

There are different ways of making cloth for Genesis figures depending on skill and ambition.

The first level is the autofit. It is somewhat similar to Wardrobe Wizard. What shall we say? It is good that it exist so the the beginners are with us from start!

A somewhat better way is to use a modeling program to create a piece of cloth to fit the Genesis base figure where after you use the Transfer Utility to rig the cloth. Then this model can be used both for both Genesis base and V5/M5 and others. But it is not always 100 %.

The Content Providers way is that if you want a dress for V5 you must create a dress for V5! But you need also to make a companion Genesis piece with the same mesh. So proceed as 2) rig this Genesis figure, and then use Morph Loader pro to replace the generated V5 morph with your own customized V5 version.

Actually there is still one more method for extreme figures (Reverse Source Shape From Target). Take that another time.

The answer to your concerns about UVs is that you are not supposed to use two different figures with the same UV. The one that should be used is the one that it supported. The Genesis figure in the above example is only used as a tool during the creation process. For highest quality one figure is taylored to one and only one outfit.

Thanks ... this partially answers my question and is sort of what I was driving at!!

Well to smooth out the Uv's you have shown, there is a clothing smoother for the breasts. I just cant get to what it is called. It solves that exact issue by making the area between the breasts "unshrinkwrapped".. Have to purchase it though.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - >>> Also note that for clothing, to date, nobody has set up seperate UV sets for those. Mostly because the UV set for the clothing is optimized for the individual items of clothing, not the Genesis shape. There is no reason you couldn't, but to date nobody making Genesis clothing has seen a need for it.

Understood. This is what I'm trying to assess ...

UV distortion when applied to heavily morphed figures is not an issue that is unique to Genesis. However, there IS a solution in being able to provide alternate UVs IF it is felt that they are needed.

To illustrate the point I'm trying to make, here's a screen shot.

--- On the left, you have a default "generic" figure. The UV mapping looks nice and clean.

--- In the middle, you see what happens to the UVs when it is applied to a female figure with medium/large breasts. You see stretching around the breasts, which is the type of thing that alternate UVs could help with.

--- On the right, the same model, with some relaxing that addresses the curvier shape of a female.

So what I'm trying to ask is ... is there a way to export the base mesh from DS after it is "autofitted" to a female so that one can provide default UVs that are more like the one on the right?

(Hope this better illustrates the question)

You aren't able to dynamically generate the UV set based on the morph. (An interesting concept perhaps you should suggest it to DAZ.) However you can create a Morph for the clothing that covers the morph for Genesis, which will give you a different distribution of the polys and give you less UV distortion that what you get from the automatic morph projection. A thing to keep in mind though is it will only work for those morphs that you have decided to include. Someone who later comes out with a new morph, if you are concerned, will cause your clothing to need to be updated though. :)

You aren't able to dynamically generate the UV set based on the morph. (An interesting concept perhaps you should suggest it to DAZ.) However you can create a Morph for the clothing that covers the morph for Genesis, which will give you a different distribution of the polys and give you less UV distortion that what you get from the automatic morph projection.

No, that isn't what I'm trying to accomplish. My concerns were more or less addressed in vintorix's answer. I was thinking in terms of modeling around the generic base shape, but instead of making a default set of UVs that is optimized for the generic body shape, create a default set of UV's that are optimized for a curvier female.

But vintorix's response basically gave me my answer .. you don't model the female clothing around the default body shape, but instead model it around the female shape. That would address the concerns I raised here.

Deecey, ..but instead model it around the female shape"

Exactly so. The workflow starts by modeling the cloth around V5 which may take many hours and even days (unless you have Marvelous Designer.. ;). Making the necessary Genesis version for rigging is only a matter of fitting - takes a few minutes no more.

Quote - Deecey, ..but instead model it around the female shape"

Exactly so. The workflow starts by modeling the cloth around V5 which may take many hours and even days (unless you have Marvelous Designer.. ;). Making the necessary Genesis version for rigging is only a matter of fitting - takes a few minutes no more.

And therein lies my main problem. Time. It's been a long time since I've used DAZ Studio ... so in addition to the Genesis intricacies I'd also have to refamiliarize myself with DS. Sadly, it's not often that I have the time to dig into it (or into content creation in general). I'm trying to force myself to do a little bit each weekend to keep up with things, though, so that I can retain and perfect the things that I do know how to do.

However, I am really happy that having Genesis in Poser opens up more opportunities for content developers in general!

Quote - > Quote - I don't understand why no one talks about the huge advantages for the content providers. Over the years the Gen4 system has grown more and more convoluted with a lot of essential and useful information hidden away in obscure threads. That makes it very hard for new talent the "old timers" (I don't mean in years) have all the advantage. You can spend hours rigging a figure but if you run it through a pose collection a bunch of errors show up. And that is valid for ALL bought content.

This very morning I rigged a figure for Genesis in 5 min and ran it through 50 poses without a single poke through. I know that everyone is first and foremost thinking of themselves but still. That it becomes so much better and easier to create content is bound to reflect in the prices (eventually.) And allow us to concentrate on more important things like details..

I have been thinking about this, and wanted to follow up on this discussion a bit. Overall, yes, I admit the thought of not having to create FBMs for clothing are greatly appealing. But let me ask this ...

The most difficult body shapes to create morphs for are the drastic ones, like Pregnant or Heavy, or Emaciated, etc. Now, I can see that for the most part the "Autofit" (or whatever it's called) doesn't do that bad of a job. However, let's take something like Pregnant or Heavy for example.

When you model, say, a skirt or a dress for the base figure, there is a natural flow from waist to hem in the way that the skirt or dress flows. It will follow the shape from the top to (say) the belly button, and then gravity straightens the flow out from that point to the hem. (I hope this is making sense).

NOW ... if you "autofit" that skirt to a pregnant or heavy figure, "automatic" morphing methods don't account for the gravity. Instead, you'll get a bump from the waist to the crotch area (exactly the way that the morph for the figure was created). So the lines of the skirt no longer look "natural" ...

My question is, is there a way to compensate for those types of things in either DAZ Studio or Poser? It would seem to me that the only way you could make those shapes look more natural is to provide a dialable morph (it couldn't be automatic, because it wouldn't apply in all conditions).

SECOND QUESTION ... having the ability to model one set of clothing that fits all is rather cool; however, the main thing that I "see" right off the bat is, if you model clothing around a "flat chested" figure and then dial in those large breast dials that the community loves so much (LOL), then you have stretching big time in those areas. Polka dot and striped tops make this most noticeable. So it would seem to me that when clothing is primarily designed for women you'll want to UV map it in a state where the breasts are set to those of a woman, rather than when it's in its default "flat" shape. I haven't looked at the Content Creation tools in DS4.5, but I'm assuming it allows for exporting a morphed version of the figure so that you could UV map it in that state?

If the clothing IS suitable for both male and female (such as shirts, tank tops, jeans, etc etc etc), then it would probably be best to make two sets of UVs and corresponding textures.

Those are some questions that I have off the bat, I'm sure most content creators will have these as well. 8-)

http://www.youtube.com/user/WWWDAZ3DCOM?feature=watch
Some solo you tube tutorials also.

Since Genesis is new to Poser.
The ones that know Genesis best are on the DAZ forums.
Might want to wear sun glasses when your on the DAZ.Com forums.

You can model horns and wings,tails ,any thing and Geo-Grafting them in to Genesis.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Actually I have spend some time at the Daz forum (without sun glasses) and find that the Daz people are very untechnical. There are some good administrators but they are tired and over-worked it seem wrong to bother the same guys time and again. No, if we want something to happen we have to do it ourselves. That is the hard lessen in the world! To find out is how to transfer material to Poser is the next thing. Lets put our back to it.

No, if we want something to happen we have to do it ourselves. That is the hard lessen in the world!

And there ya go! That's how we old timers got here in the first place. 8-)

Quote - Actually I have spend some time at the Daz forum (without sun glasses) and find that the Daz people are very untechnical. There are some good administrators but they are tired and over-worked it seem wrong to bother the same guys time and again. No, if we want something to happen we have to do it ourselves. That is the hard lessen in the world! To find out is how to transfer material to Poser is the next thing. Lets put our back to it.

Any CGI company's responsibility is to provide us with.
A good CGI app.
Good documentation of how there CGI app works.
Good videos of how there CGI App works.
Good Forums.
Anything & everything we need.

To one degree to another all the CGI App's attempt this.
Learning materials you buy tend to be better.
Any CGI App I've learned there where struggles.
Never herd anyone say CGI is easy.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Never herd anyone say CGI is easy.

It isn't. Takes discipline and study.

By day I'm a CGI app documentation person ... by nights and weekends I'm a software user just like anyone else and I tinker and pick things apart to learn. The things I'm asking here are my tinkering at play, because I love to figure new stuff out.

;-)

Quote - Actually I have spend some time at the Daz forum (without sun glasses) and find that the Daz people are very untechnical. There are some good administrators but they are tired and over-worked it seem wrong to bother the same guys time and again. No, if we want something to happen we have to do it ourselves. That is the hard lessen in the world! To find out is how to transfer material to Poser is the next thing. Lets put our back to it.

Vintorix,

From your posts, you've spent the majority of your time in the "New Members" area. Those who can help with this type of thing don't normally hang out there. The "technical" people are in "Nuts and Bolts" and "Daz Studio Discussion" more than likely.

There are as many "untechnical" folks here as there. You just need to ask your questions in the areas where those with the knowledge are. I think you'll find many are willing to help, if they are asked.

Kendall

The beginning to all these problems with Daz, the original canonical mistake, come from the installation process. The user don't know what that is installed or where it was installed. And now, when they finally are on their way to remedy this (why took it so long?), then they make the same mistake again, by not documenting the Dson installation process.

You are basically asked to transfer something you don't know what it is or where it is, convert it and place a new bunch of undocumented files somewhere you don't know.

Check this out.Very handy.

http://www.mec4d.com/store/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=86

My Renderosity Store

Quote - The beginning to all these problems with Daz, the original canonical mistake, come from the installation process. The user don't know what that is installed or where it was installed. And now, when they finally are on their way to remedy this (why took it so long?), then they make the same mistake again, by not documenting the Dson installation process.

You are basically asked to transfer something you don't know what it is or where it is, convert it and place a new bunch of undocumented files somewhere you don't know.

I agree that DAZ is guilty of assuming that computer users have at least basic knowledge of how their system operates. Unfortunately, many who use Poser and D|S are the "bread goes in/Toast comes out" type of users.

Let's face it, 3D art/modeling/animation is not a field for those unwilling to learn. However, there are a large contingent of Poser/DS users that are exactly that way. They have little knowledge of how Poser/DS operates, and less motivation to find out.

It is easy to make the presumption that people, at the least know how to keep their systems up to date. Sheesh, people are told that this process requires Poser9 or PoserPro2012 and there are still Poser users trying to install it on Poser 7/8 or PP2010. Never mind the fact that, evidently, a large portion of Poser users haven't bothered to update to SR3... or update their Windows installs.

Again, DAZ gives the users too much credit. Then they get flamed when the users screw up. Maybe one day DAZ will presume that users are idiots and ... well, they'll probably get flamed for that as well.

Kendall

Quote - The beginning to all these problems with Daz, the original canonical mistake, come from the installation process. The user don't know what that is installed or where it was installed. And now, when they finally are on their way to remedy this (why took it so long?), then they make the same mistake again, by not documenting the Dson installation process.

You are basically asked to transfer something you don't know what it is or where it is, convert it and place a new bunch of undocumented files somewhere you don't know.

Oh, god, this is so true. My reply may seem a bit off topic, but this also seems to cover the majority of newbie Poser problems as well. (I don't think it's unique to DAZ). I sometimes think that actually installing the software -- and then the content -- is the hardest part.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - Again, DAZ gives the users too much credit. Then they get flamed when the users screw up. Maybe one day DAZ will presume that users are idiots and ... well, they'll probably get flamed for that as well.

Kendall

This is also true. It seems to me that DS 4 attempts to simplify the interface, and it has been derided as being too "crayola" -- like a kids' toy. I dislike it myself, but for completely other reasons. I like to count how many clicks it takes me to accomplish a series of commons tasks; too many, and I get impatient. But there is definitely an element of damned if you do/if you don't to people's responses to any kind of change.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

"I agree that DAZ is guilty of assuming that computer users have at least basic knowledge of how their system operates."

I have 20 years of experience of software engineering and successful made and sold my own company. Sometimes we had to learn a new programming language over the week-end. Since that I learned Cinema 4D, Bodypaint, ZBrush, in depth Photoshop, Poser, Vue and a bunch of other programs in a little over a year without problem. But the Daz installation and the relationship between the different files is the most difficult task I ever encountered.

When I finally understand this I will write a documentation that in less than one page describe exactly how it works and what references what. Just to show how simple it is to spare people so much grief.

Quote - > Quote - The beginning to all these problems with Daz, the original canonical mistake, come from the installation process. The user don't know what that is installed or where it was installed. And now, when they finally are on their way to remedy this (why took it so long?), then they make the same mistake again, by not documenting the Dson installation process.

You are basically asked to transfer something you don't know what it is or where it is, convert it and place a new bunch of undocumented files somewhere you don't know.

Oh, god, this is so true. My reply may seem a bit off topic, but this also seems to cover the majority of newbie Poser problems as well. (I don't think it's unique to DAZ). I sometimes think that actually installing the software -- and then the content -- is the hardest part.

Is it really that hard, if one sticks to the default install options, from day one?

A lot of the issues I have read, on these lines, seem to stem from people opting to customise their Poser program and separate content file installation paths?

There are some good reasons for doing this, I'm sure. But if you're not at least an intermediate level operating system user (e.g. on Windows, are you reasonably confident using regedit) its perhaps not such a great idea?

Regedit shouldn't be required of course! He he. Probably not a good benchmark of user advancement here...

But I guess, all Poser users must have run through setup (perhaps not the actual install, these days) for Windows or OS X. But how many can describe the file system layout of core operating system files?

Sorry don't want to get more OT here.

I guess the point you guys are making is that there should just be more detail in the readme about exactly what files install where, by default, for each part of the install... so that more advanced users can check this? (assuming there isn't more info tucked away in Daz's online readmes, that we all just glossed over)

Quote - Check this out.Very handy.

http://www.mec4d.com/store/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=86

Awesome, thanks for the link Zev0

Quote - I have 20 years of experience of software engineering and successful made and sold my own company. Sometimes we had to learn a new programming language over the week-end. Since that I learned Cinema 4D, Bodypaint, ZBrush, in depth Photoshop, Poser, Vue and a bunch of other programs in a little over a year without problem. But the Daz installation and the relationship between the different files is the most difficult task I ever encountered.

What plugins did you make for C4D ,zBrush ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"What plugins did you make for C4D ,zBrush ?"

And what plugins did you make yourself? My ambitions now is elsewhere I want to paint like the old masters and create content. Life is short art is long. No activity is more unthankful than that of a programmer.

The basic file layout of the "Genesis + Poser" DSON Importer and Genesis Essentials installation seems to be fairly straight forward... to me at least?

The DSON Importer program and python scripts, which plug it in to Poser, I guess, should be installed into your Poser Program Files location (the default). I'm not sure it'll work otherwise. I imagine the advanced option (to customize the install path) there is in case the user has installed their Poser Program files somewhere more exotic?

The two Genesis Essentials packages should be installed into a runtime, it would seem.

The default will be your main runtime. Go with that, you'll get a "Daz People" folder etc. appearing in the "Characters" section of your Poser Library... and a few other folders of runtime stuff. Extra dependencies are added though, far as I recall now, within the folder enclosing the runtime folder.

I just created a new runtime (or a new runtime enclosing folder, rather), and installed them into that, then added that new runtime via the usual method in the Poser Library. I'll just now keep that separate, isolated, runtime for Genesis content.

I have to say that I found the documentation that was linked to from the installer (as far as I recall) pretty reasonable...

http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dson_importer/start

It didn't take me long after installing... after curiously opening up the CR2s in textedit, then the referenced python scripts, which call the DSON Loader... to get a rough handle on the way in which it was all hanging together. I do develop software for a living, fair enough. But most folk don't really need to get into all that side of it. I just find it interesting...

In terms of dealling with the .duf data / content etc, certainly, some more "starter" documentation on that seems to be needed, perhaps?

Not sure if there is anything more yet, than the following?

http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/dson_spec/start

[quote

Is it really that hard, if one sticks to the default install options, from day one?

A lot of the issues I have read, on these lines, seem to stem from people opting to customise their Poser program and separate content file installation paths?

After having read thread after thread after thread in this forum from newbies with installation problems, I'm convinced that a huge proportion of their issues come from them making the mistake of reading old and outdated forum posts instead of the current manual. Or taking advice from people who don't know what they're talking about, advice that all too often suggests NOT following the default installation instructions.

Just a single example:

How many posts have we seen in the last few months alone in which people state categorically that you must not, under any circumstances, install the Poser executable into Program Files under Win Vista or Win 7?

I'm convinced that half the problems come from the continued dissemination of misinformation in forums, and the other half from people refusing to read the current manual for themselves.

Of course, Daz Studio users are exempted from the latter group, since AFAIK there is no current and updated manual for their software, and searching the available documentation does tend to lead one on a wild goose chase after a string of 404's. However, Poser users have no such excuse. Yet we still see the same problems.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

^Yup... I think you're onto something, on all points there, Moriador...

monkeycloud, moriador

The issue here is not how to install but how to move the materials to Poser from Daz.

That said the install seem to work for most people. Sometime people says, "I know how to install MS Sql Server or MySQL". What they mean is that if they click on ok through the whole installation process it will install. But that is not knowing how to install.

For example I have two computers, the new and the old which I always keep as a backup. The installation on the new computer worked out of the box. But on the old computer I get an error message. The same error message I've seen other has reported here. Both boxes have Windows 7 and SR3. That is not important I can live without having DSON Poser on the old computer it is just to illustrate a point, "Knowing how to install" means knowing how to fix problems if something goes wrong.

Quote - monkeycloud, moriador

The issue here is not how to install but how to move the materials to Poser from Daz.

That said the install seem to work for most people. Sometime people says, "I know how to install MS Sql Server or MySQL". What they mean is that if they click on ok through the whole installation process it will install. But that is not knowing how to install.

For example I have two computers, the new and the old which I always keep as a backup. The installation on the new computer worked out of the box. But on the old computer I get an error message. The same error message I've seen other has reported here. Both boxes have Windows 7 and SR3. That is not important I can live without having DSON Poser on the old computer it is just to illustrate a point, "Knowing how to install" means knowing how to fix problems if something goes wrong.

^Yup, fair enough Vintorix... some more, formal, documentation to help with migrating / manipulating the data / content, after install, would certainly be useful now I suspect...

...all I've found so far (beyond heresay on the forums) is that fairly abstract DSON spec I linked to a couple of posts back.

Vintorix, I had no problem installing the DSON importer or getting Genesis to work in Poser via that importer. I simply followed the instructions and voilà. But I do understand that things don't always work perfectly well, particularly with older systems. You should have heard me swearing when I tried to use a simple headset with my laptop. But that pretty much goes with the territory. If you install enough random crap into your machines, you get better at troubleshooting.

So, yes. I totally agree that knowing how to install means knowing how to fix problems.

All I'm saying is that very often the first step that people use in fixing problems is to post them on a forum, instead of reading the instructions that came with whatever they're installing. At that point, they are then at the mercy of fate. They might get a response that answers their questions clearly and helps fix the issues. Or they might get someone telling them to fix problems they don't have and/or offering suggestions that were a decent work-around ten years ago.

The staying power of some of the myths amazes me. I mean, there are people who actually think they need to turn off UAC in order to run Poser, and other people who are uninstalling their antivirus protection in order to install Daz exe's.

ETA: And this is pertinent to this discussion in at least so much as I've read more than one post over at Daz telling people that the DSON importer won't work if you have Poser installed into Program Files, and at least post telling people that it won't work if you don't have Poser installed into Program Files. Both of these statements are false. If people can't get proper information about the basic installation of this plugin, I hold little hope that actually converting items themselves will become a seamless and simple operation for the typical user.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

"The staying power of some of the myths amazes me."

true ;)

I actually managed to open V5 in Poser with d3d's script and thereafter the material by first creating a duf file and then generating the poser companion files. But as I not really know what I am doing bear with me..I have to tackle how to transfer all the other presets.

So now I don't have to reinitialize and download several gigabytes of data after waiting for them to be updated..

Quote - "What plugins did you make for C4D ,zBrush ?"

And what plugins did you make yourself? My ambitions now is elsewhere I want to paint like the old masters and create content. Life is short art is long. No activity is more unthankful than that of a programmer.

My Plugs ? LOL ,Hello world.Coding is not one of my skills.
All I've ever been or ever will be is a Artist.

One thing that has puzzled me for years is.
Some app's can't subdivide a tri there convert it to a quad and it will pinch.
some app's can subdivide a tri.

Why wont all the app's subdivide tri's ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

RorrKonn, "Why wont all the app's subdivide tri's ?"

Why should you care? There are no better thing to be in this world than an artist. My favorite quotation is,

"Dreyfus? who's that? I haven't opened a newspaper since I went out from the academy!"

I've been a Windows user since 3.1 (coming from a Macintosh). I hated 3.1 so much I never used an IBM pc until Windows 95 came out. In the beginning I screwed it up more than I used it. However, I learned really fast in order to have a consistent experience and today I'm more than capable of taking care of ANY problem, be it an OS issue, a virus, whatever. I'm rather surprised that someone who's been using a computer as long as I have can't even maintain it. I also almost never seem to have the problems that other Poser users have and installing the DS plugin for me went pretty much like clockwork. Of course, like I said, I did read everything there was on the subject beforehand. All I can say is that it's a darn good thing computers really aren't rocket science. LOL.

BTW, like others, I don't have Poser installed to the default location. I never have since Poser 6, and still didn't have any problems intalling the plugin. There definitely was additional information in the Daz forum thread on the importer, and it was advantageous for me to read that as well, in additon to the installation instructions beforehand. Perhaps they could have thought it out a little more before they wrote the instructions, but even so, they were easy to follow. At least, I thought so ;).

Laurie

It does seem unfair to me too, that some ppl are flaming Daz for making a bad plugin when at least some of us had no problems installing. And the Daz mods and coordinators are doing the ultra-fast twostep in order to repeat the same things over and over again and to keep up answering questions to people who didn't read the instructions before they tried to install ;). And they've been very patient too. They've even been over here fielding questions. It's not a bad plugin. So far I've found it works much like the information stated. At least they made the attempt, even tho some find it too little, too late. That's fine - everyone is entitled to their opinion ;).

Laurie

Quote - It does seem unfair to me too, that some ppl are flaming Daz for making a bad plugin when at least some of us had no problems installing. And the Daz mods and coordinators are doing the ultra-fast twostep in order to repeat the same things over and over again and to keep up answering questions to people who didn't read the instructions before they tried to install ;).

Laurie

Yup... I'd agree there. I found install straight forward and I am really very impressed with the actual functioning... and indeed the technical aspects and overall the ingenuity with which they have actually realised the solution too.

Moreover they seem pretty focused / committed to taking onboard feedback and working to improve any little glitches, far as I can tell. I'd have to say, I now have a pretty positive outlook on Daz's software, ongoing, as a result of this release.

The installation steps documentation is fine in my opinion. I had no bother installing... and I have to say, whilst I read the install how-to, I read it pretty fast and blurred.

They maybe just need to consider an installation troubleshooting section, that'd be all? Again, not that I'd have had any need of that myself... thankfully!

(More user-level docs about DSON generally would also be good, in due course)

However, if they're just taking the view that no-one would read an installation troubleshooting guide anyway, and they're better channelling resources into direct assistance... as it sounds like they're doing... that seems fair enough to me too!

And you even use a Mac and still had no problems? Heh.

And yes, the mods over there have seemed to be on top of everything...which is rather like running the gauntlet for as fast as the post count grew in at least the one thread over there. LOL. Everytime I refreshed there were 10 new posts. LOL As of now, it's become a genuine monster thread ;). And yes, I'm sure they anticipated problems like they're having as we Poser users aren't yet used to real plugins, only scripts. It's all so new. Heh.

Laurie

I did make it easy for myself I guess.

Poser Pro 2012 installed to the default: Applications folder (where else on a mac?).

"Poser Pro 2012 Content" folder installed to the default: /users/shared/

All my runtimes are "internal" at present... by which I mean, they're inside that "Poser Pro 2012 Content" folder.

I have one big terrabyte disk and only been accruing content since this time last year... so its not totally full yet

Nobody is complaining about the installation what I can see, so what's the fuss?

What I am complaining over is lack of documentation for the advanced user. I am not against Genesis I have been one of its starkest advocates right from the beginning when most Poser people were bashing the whole project.

Anyway I am glad that LaurieA is coming in. Welcome aboard! Better late than never.

I was only pissed in the beginning then quickly realized it wasn't the end of the world. Add to that I was never a DS user.

Laurie

Installation was pretty straightforward.

Only trouble so far is that scaling dosn't work out of the box and that if you leave subdivision on while posing, Poser easily crashes.

But I'd really would like to see better documentation, too.

Not so much for Poser, as you can't really create Genesis content inside Poser (yet), but for Studio.

How exactly can I add a custom morph to the Genesis genepool for redistribution ?

How can I create standalone custom figures that need re-rigging ?

How exactly does the "snap-on" joints functionality work ?

I'd really like getting creative with Genesis, but I need more than a few flashy videos.

I know how to rig and to sculpt but I need at least someone to tell me where everything is. Lol.

Better to say, "lack of documentation for the intermediate user".

JoePublic,

"I know how to rig and to sculpt but least I need someone to tell me where everything is. Lol."

You are so right. Video is great for learning but to get a quick answer to something you need searchable media.

Quote - BTW, like others, I don't have Poser installed to the default location. I never have since Poser 6, and still didn't have any problems intalling the plugin. There definitely was additional information in the Daz forum thread on the importer, and it was advantageous for me to read that as well, in additon to the installation instructions beforehand. Perhaps they could have thought it out a little more before they wrote the instructions, but even so, they were easy to follow. At least, I thought so ;).

Laurie

I don't have Poser installed to the default location either and have never had any problems. I thought I did at one stage but it turned out to be the fault of a python script which was overwriting something it wasn't supposed to in a new service release or something. The only time I have had problems is when Poser was installed in the default location.

The DSON Poser Importer went smoothly for me. I uninstalled it and installed it again without any problems too. I've also made Poser Companion Files to transfer over to Poser with success. However, I do agree that documentation in lots of things is often lacking.

I've played around with Genesis in Poser and as far as I can see the main advantage is being able to morph the character into so many different shapes. Therefore if you are into monsters and non-standard characters it is ideal. However, I have had some problems with clothes not draping correctly or textures looking stretched even when morphing the figure to a standard child which does not seem to be the case when using DS. I think everyone involved in bringing the plugin has done a good job but there are still some problems. No doubt these bugs will be sorted out in future updates.

As far as bending, I am not convinced it bends any better than V4WM. The advantage is that no doubt there will be lots of items made for Genesis in the future. The disadvantage is that it will be expensive if you are an older user and already have an extensive wardrobe for other characters.

I think it is definitely quite fun to play with and as it is free you might as well. However, I'm not sure how far I will be going with this character although I do think it would be quite fun to make clothing items for it. I can fully understand how content creators would prefer to develop for it rather than the traditional characters.

Quote - > Quote - BTW, like others, I don't have Poser installed to the default location. I never have since Poser 6, and still didn't have any problems intalling the plugin. There definitely was additional information in the Daz forum thread on the importer, and it was advantageous for me to read that as well, in additon to the installation instructions beforehand. Perhaps they could have thought it out a little more before they wrote the instructions, but even so, they were easy to follow. At least, I thought so ;).

Laurie

I don't have Poser installed to the default location either and have never had any problems. I thought I did at one stage but it turned out to be the fault of a python script which was overwriting something it wasn't supposed to in a new service release or something and this would have occurred no matter where Poser was installed. The only time I have had real problems is when Poser was installed in the default location.

The DSON Poser Importer went smoothly for me. I uninstalled it and installed it again without any problems too. I've also made Poser Companion Files to transfer over to Poser with success. However, I do agree that documentation in lots of things is often lacking.

I've played around with Genesis in Poser and as far as I can see the main advantage is being able to morph the character into so many different shapes. Therefore if you are into monsters and non-standard characters it is ideal. However, I have had some problems with clothes not draping correctly or textures looking stretched even when morphing the figure to a standard child which does not seem to be the case when using DS. I think everyone involved in bringing the plugin has done a good job but there are still some problems. No doubt these bugs will be sorted out in future updates.

As far as bending, I am not convinced it bends any better than V4WM. The advantage is that no doubt there will be lots of items made for Genesis in the future. The disadvantage is that it will be expensive if you are an older user and already have an extensive wardrobe for other characters.

I think it is definitely quite fun to play with and as it is free you might as well. However, I'm not sure how far I will be going with this character although I do think it would be quite fun to make clothing items for it. I can fully understand how content creators would prefer to develop for it rather than the traditional characters.

I installed it with no problems, and ran a few renders with it, and really, the only thing I like about it is the versatility that comes with unimesh. I don't think it bends any better than V4WM, and Ironman has an excellent joint fix package out that works well for regular V4. I found it did slow poser down quite a bit when I have a genesis figure loaded, and it did not look like an improvement over V4.

Overall, It's just another figure with a heavier overload. I prefer V4/V4WM, and won't be buying genesis content.

Here is a youtube video where we showed the differences in bending in Genesis vs the 4th generation products from DAZ 3D. I hope this will help as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqYFMoAoLoI

I didn't read the whole thread, but just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Genesis expands the ability of morphing and mix matching characters beyond any other figure, but if Victoria 4 works for you right now, and there isn't a point for you in which you say "I REALLY can't do this with Victoria 4" (like turning her into a Troll, along with her 6 years old child), then I don't see there's a reason for switching to Genesis other than trying a new figure.

All that flexibility obviously comes at a cost, you have to buy every morph pack again, muscle morphs, detail moprhs, etc. Or buy tools that allow you to convert old stuff to Genesis.

To me, it all comes down to real "need". For example, I'm working on some sort of bestiary of fantasy creatures, and up until now, I had to create a creature twice, male and female, using V4 and M4 (M4 not being WM yet), now I have to create it only once and dial the female and male dials on Genesis up and down. It's a very particular need, but that's the point.

Quote - Here is a youtube video where we showed the differences in bending in Genesis vs the 4th generation products from DAZ 3D. I hope this will help as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqYFMoAoLoI

...but that isn't a V4 weight mapped, isn't she?

Quote - > Quote - Here is a youtube video where we showed the differences in bending in Genesis vs the 4th generation products from DAZ 3D. I hope this will help as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqYFMoAoLoI

...but that isn't a V4 weight mapped, isn't she?

You are right it's the V4 out of the box.

Quote - I didn't read the whole thread, but just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Genesis expands the ability of morphing and mix matching characters beyond any other figure, but if Victoria 4 works for you right now, and there isn't a point for you in which you say "I REALLY can't do this with Victoria 4" (like turning her into a Troll, along with her 6 years old child), then I don't see there's a reason for switching to Genesis other than trying a new figure.

All that flexibility obviously comes at a cost, you have to buy every morph pack again, muscle morphs, detail moprhs, etc. Or buy tools that allow you to convert old stuff to Genesis.

To me, it all comes down to real "need". For example, I'm working on some sort of bestiary of fantasy creatures, and up until now, I had to create a creature twice, male and female, using V4 and M4 (M4 not being WM yet), now I have to create it only once and dial the female and male dials on Genesis up and down. It's a very particular need, but that's the point.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned earlier in the threads, but another advantage to the user and the vendor creating clothing for the Genesis line, is the need to only add the clothing to Genesis and have the morphs project onto the clothing, saving the user and vendor creating content time and even better money purchasing all the clothing for each figure shape.

Quote - > Quote - I didn't read the whole thread, but just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Genesis expands the ability of morphing and mix matching characters beyond any other figure, but if Victoria 4 works for you right now, and there isn't a point for you in which you say "I REALLY can't do this with Victoria 4" (like turning her into a Troll, along with her 6 years old child), then I don't see there's a reason for switching to Genesis other than trying a new figure.

All that flexibility obviously comes at a cost, you have to buy every morph pack again, muscle morphs, detail moprhs, etc. Or buy tools that allow you to convert old stuff to Genesis.

To me, it all comes down to real "need". For example, I'm working on some sort of bestiary of fantasy creatures, and up until now, I had to create a creature twice, male and female, using V4 and M4 (M4 not being WM yet), now I have to create it only once and dial the female and male dials on Genesis up and down. It's a very particular need, but that's the point.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned earlier in the threads, but another advantage to the user and the vendor creating clothing for the Genesis line, is the need to only add the clothing to Genesis and have the morphs project onto the clothing, saving the user and vendor creating content time and even better money purchasing all the clothing for each figure shape.

A big thing you couldn't do with Gen4 is make a custom body shape then automatically have it work with clothing. People tend to think of the custom morphs in terms of monsters or creatures, but you or a vendor could take Genesis into zbrush or any other tool, make a custom body the way you like, bring it back it and it works with all clothing. For my characters, I take the base M5 or V5 and throw it right into zbrush and sculpt bigger or smaller thighs, breast, lats, feet, arms, glutes, etc... or make him/her smaller or taller... and bring it right back into Genesis... and I don't have to bother clothing makers to support the body shape I just made. This way you have a lot more unique and natual body shapes to render with without relying on a product similar to morphing clothes or clothing makers to support your new body shapes.

If I might ask again for steps or links ... how does one transfer Generation 4 morphs over to Genesis again? I remember seeing it in one of these threads, but like a dummy I didn't book mark it.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Here is a youtube video where we showed the differences in bending in Genesis vs the 4th generation products from DAZ 3D. I hope this will help as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqYFMoAoLoI

...but that isn't a V4 weight mapped, isn't she?

You are right it's the V4 out of the box.

It was a pretty nice video, so thanks for pointing it out. I think it was completed inside DAZ Studio too, and I thought I heard a mention of Tri-Axis weight mapping, so how much of that transfers over thru the DSON process is unclear to me. Still, it would be great to see that video re-done by DAZ with Genesis inside Poser. That would be great.

Thanks

Quote - RorrKonn, "Why wont all the app's subdivide tri's ?"

Why should you care? There are no better thing to be in this world than an artist. My favorite quotation is,

"Dreyfus? who's that? I haven't opened a newspaper since I went out from the academy!"

If your going to do any Geo Grafting your make Cloths for Genesis ,the quad rule applies.
Poser has not used SubD's before you half to model a certain way for SubD's
You half to model a certain way for SubD Quads.
V3 ,Posseeta ,was not modeled for SubD's.

Genesis is the best character mesh ever made.
100% quad ,descent polycount.Morph in to any thing.
Geo Grafting ,Subdivides.
Genesis will work in any CGI App.

In any topology.
where you have a vertices with 3 lines attached to it ,it's a Tri that's been quad.
Where you have a vertices with 5 lines attached to it It's a nGon that's been quad.

A true quad would only have 4 lines attached to a vertices.
you can not model 100% true quads.
even a cube has quad tri corners.

So how do you model 100% quad ?
model with some tri's ,nGons .subD once =100% quads.
The app's that just left out SubD Tri's and can't SubD a tri made the rule model 100% quad rule.Would have been nice if they exsplained all this to me in 1998.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - I didn't read the whole thread, but just wanted to add my 2 cents.

... if Victoria 4 works for you right now, and there isn't a point for you in which you say "I REALLY can't do this with Victoria 4" ... then I don't see there's a reason for switching to Genesis other than trying a new figure.....

I think that is becoming the bottom line to me. I think others posted similar feelings. Everyone waits until that one package comes out they can't do without and then they take the plunge.

Thanks

Quote - You are so right. Video is great for learning but to get a quick answer to something you need searchable media.

YES! Thank you for saying this so succinctly.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

If you are talking about the GenX plugin here is the link: Hopefully this helps a little :-). Thank you and take care.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2851334

Quote - If I might ask again for steps or links ... how does one transfer Generation 4 morphs over to Genesis again? I remember seeing it in one of these threads, but like a dummy I didn't book mark it.

Quote - If you are talking about the GenX plugin here is the link: Hopefully this helps a little :-). Thank you and take care.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2851334

Quote - If I might ask again for steps or links ... how does one transfer Generation 4 morphs over to Genesis again? I remember seeing it in one of these threads, but like a dummy I didn't book mark it.

Thank you kindly. 8-)

Here's one:

I FINALLY found the SubD box at the bottom of the "collide against" menu in the cloth room. With Genesis and a cloth prop loaded, you only have to click on ONE box and run the cloth simulation. It works beautifully and easily.

Quote - Here's one:

I FINALLY found the SubD box at the bottom of the "collide against" menu in the cloth room. With Genesis and a cloth prop loaded, you only have to click on ONE box and run the cloth simulation. It works beautifully and easily.

That's great news. I love dynamic clothes. I'm looking forward to trying this out. :)

Quote - I didn't read the whole thread, but just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Genesis expands the ability of morphing and mix matching characters beyond any other figure, but if Victoria 4 works for you right now, and there isn't a point for you in which you say "I REALLY can't do this with Victoria 4" (like turning her into a Troll, along with her 6 years old child), then I don't see there's a reason for switching to Genesis other than trying a new figure.

All that flexibility obviously comes at a cost, you have to buy every morph pack again, muscle morphs, detail moprhs, etc. Or buy tools that allow you to convert old stuff to Genesis.

To me, it all comes down to real "need". For example, I'm working on some sort of bestiary of fantasy creatures, and up until now, I had to create a creature twice, male and female, using V4 and M4 (M4 not being WM yet), now I have to create it only once and dial the female and male dials on Genesis up and down. It's a very particular need, but that's the point.

This is the biggest issue from my perspective. What is the "must have" item that would justify buying $250 or more of "gene pools" (I stopped counting once it got to what I paid for Poser 2012).

All I have seen from genesis vendors over the past 15 months are the same "Logan's Run" young adults, and some monsters that do not overly impress me.

It's great that you can add extra arms to genesis - get back with me when you can get a shirt on him.

The clothing is mostly repeats of Gen4 content. In all honesty, I have seen exactly 2 genesis outfits that I would like to have.

The only thing I can see genesis being useful for is moving some of my Gen3 characters to use better maps & better movement - If I could get the Luke & Laura added to the Gen3 gene pool, then I certainly would look into investing in genesis.

All in all, genesis looks like the opportunity to purchase items I already have in my runtimes.

Quote - This is the biggest issue from my perspective. What is the "must have" item that would justify buying $250 or more of "gene pools" (I stopped counting once it got to what I paid for Poser 2012).

All I have seen from genesis vendors over the past 15 months are the same "Logan's Run" young adults, and some monsters that do not overly impress me.

It's great that you can add extra arms to genesis - get back with me when you can get a shirt on him.

The clothing is mostly repeats of Gen4 content. In all honesty, I have seen exactly 2 genesis outfits that I would like to have.

The only thing I can see genesis being useful for is moving some of my Gen3 characters to use better maps & better movement - If I could get the Luke & Laura added to the Gen3 gene pool, then I certainly would look into investing in genesis.

All in all, genesis looks like the opportunity to purchase items I already have in my runtimes.

Well it's definitely a matter of perspective because I don't see that being the case. Besides, that's not a function of technology that you may think this is happening, it's a matter of supply and demand... that's what's people will buy. I've certainly seen more than my share of bras, panties, cop and school girl outfits for Gen 4 and they'll continue to be made because that's what people will buy. Last week I saw three different versions of V4 cutoffs and I'm sure that won't be the last pair that will be made. Just because the tech changes doesn't mean that there's going to be an earth shattering must have outfit... cause people will still be looking to buy bras, panties, high heeled shoes, etc to throw on that character, and vendors will be more than happy to provide it for it since it's an easy sell.

Quote - Well it's definitely a matter of perspective because I don't see that being the case. Besides, that's not a function of technology that you may think this is happening, it's a matter of supply and demand... that's what's people will buy. I've certainly seen more than my share of bras, panties, cop and school girl outfits for Gen 4 and they'll continue to be made because that's what people will buy. Last week I saw three different versions of V4 cutoffs and I'm sure that won't be the last pair that will be made. Just because the tech changes doesn't mean that there's going to be an earth shattering must have outfit... cause people will still be looking to buy bras, panties, high heeled shoes, etc to throw on that character, and vendors will be more than happy to provide it for it since it's an easy sell.

Well, of course my perspective is different, you are a genesis vendor, I am not.

The problem from my perspective is that too much content is just a repeat of Gen4 content that I already own.

There was a real change from Gen3 to Gen4 with respect to content - what it could do, and what it looks like. Gen4 to Genesis - not so much.

What has sold at DAZ has changed quite a bit since the Gen3 timeframe. There is a lot less variety now than there was then.

Quote -

Well, of course my perspective is different, you are a genesis vendor, I am not.

Please don't play that. I buy lots of content, because I don't make clothing. So I can see when there's lots of bras, panties, etc.

Quote - The problem from my perspective is that too much content is just a repeat of Gen4 content that I already own.

No the problem is that vendors make what sells, irregardless of the generation. It may not be what you want, but it's paying someone's bills.

Quote - There was a real change from Gen3 to Gen4 with respect to content - what it could do, and what it looks like. Gen4 to Genesis - not so much.

No, Gen3 to Gen 4 was the change. There was simply lots of unique stuff for gen3 that never got carried over; and there's lots of simple miniskirts, bras and panties now.

But at least I got a surgeon outfit, delivery driver and a short order cook outfit out of the deal... none of which was made for Gen3 or Gen 4.

Quote - > Quote -

Well, of course my perspective is different, you are a genesis vendor, I am not.

Please don't play that. I buy lots of content, because I don't make clothing. So I can see when there's lots of bras, panties, etc.

Quote - The problem from my perspective is that too much content is just a repeat of Gen4 content that I already own.

No the problem is that vendors make what sells, irregardless of the generation. It may not be what you want, but it's paying someone's bills.

Quote - There was a real change from Gen3 to Gen4 with respect to content - what it could do, and what it looks like. Gen4 to Genesis - not so much.

No, Gen3 to Gen 4 was the change. There was simply lots of unique stuff for gen3 that never got carried over; and there's lots of simple miniskirts, bras and panties now.

But at least I got a surgeon outfit, delivery driver and a short order cook outfit out of the deal... none of which was made for Gen3 or Gen 4.

I will play it - you are a genesis vendor, and as such, you do have a vested interest in genesis - suggesting that you are "just another customer and nothing more" is a bit much.

Much like Apollo Maximus or Miki, Genesis is a niche character - it hasn't replaced Gen4 and I don't think that will happen anytime soon, because the vendors outside of those who sell at DAZ haven't embraced it. Here at Rosity, there are what, 3 genesis clothing content vendors? I see Sickleyield, Dzheng, and Oskarsson. As far as characters, most genesis characters seem to come with a Gen4 character also.

DSON for Poser could possibly prime the pump as far as customer demand, but the vendors have yet to embrace it. That may change if DAZ ever gets it's act together with respect to documentation, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that. DAZ doesn't appear to have gotten much documetation completed in the last 15 months or so.

As a customer, I can see a use for genesis, if Dimension3D gets his Genesis Generation X and his Gen3 add-on pack working in Poser. Or if Oskarsson's Preteens for Genesis work with the DSON importer.

The only thing I see genesis being good for is filling in the missing Gen3 characters (The YT's and David). I don't do fantasy or portraits, so what little content is available isn't much use.

well, sadly i rather found disadvantages.

the importer thingie worked quite well, also the figure seems to morph fine (i only have the starter pack) but after some playing things came to an aprupt halt for me.

No one noticed the -very- conservative limits they have put on every single axis?

try to bend the arms behind the back - you can't. raise the knees, it stops at a very low angle.

try a more 'extreme' Spiderman-Pose.....

sure, you can tick those limits off, but this can become a very tedious work after a while and shouldn't be nescessary in the first place.

it's a first disadvantage.

second drawback:

Poser doesn't export the Genesis figure correct. neither to Vue nor as OBJ you seem to get a sub-devided mesh (see butt in image above), so external rendering is a no-go, what breaks my workflow.

third point, already mentioned, without spending a lot of money you can't do anything with the figure, what may be nice for DAZ, but i'm not willing to do.

my impression is - if you'd like to work with Genesis - do it in DAZ Studio, that'll probably save you some trouble.

edit: oh - and don't click on "Figure - Use limits" - or pooooff - genesis dissapears like a jinny :)

I thought the limits seemed "realistic"... but you're right, I guess, they are quite restrictive by default. It may be possible to create a pose file to turn them off in different combinations?

I reckon, if your looking to use Genesis in Vue, then going via Poser is just a convolution anyway?

Not sure how well Genesis in DS4 export / import to Vue works though either? Did they sort something out there? I guess that's going OT for this thread...

When I use Poser in Vue, I tend to use the advance import options. I'd have been pretty surprised if these worked with Genesis... yet. Even if Smith Micro and / or Daz have countered for this... and I don't expect they have, so far, with other priorities... I'd think that steps will need to also be taken by EON, for that one?

Quote - As a customer, I can see a use for genesis, if Dimension3D gets his Genesis Generation X and his Gen3 add-on pack working in Poser.

That would be nice. Try as I might, I just don't like the DS4 interface.

I would imagine making further add-ins to convert items to duf format wouldn't be out the question... although depending who wrote those, the installation of DS4.5 may be required?

But a 3rd-party add-in could perhaps automate DS4.5?

I downloaded the DS4.5 C++ SDK yesterday to have a wee looksie... if that is worth it's salt, then 3rd party automation may be feasible, I guess?

But it may be possible to make dufs without recourse to DS though too???

Who knows, maybe Dimension3d, or PhilC, or someone, is on the case already...

Quote - I reckon, if your looking to use Genesis in Vue, then going via Poser is just a convolution anyway?

Not sure how well Genesis in DS4 export / import to Vue works though either? Did they sort something out there? I guess that's going OT for this thread...

well, i don't know. i don't use Studio and i don't plan to use Genesis seriously, so i can't tell how well they work together with Vue.

but the export issue is more general, it seems. the image i posted above is from a simple OBJ export rendered in Octane. there's definitely a smoothing (or sub-dividing) problem going on.

Yeah, having checked back on EON's site, I can't see any sign yet of them adding duf support to Vue.... yet.

Anyway...

...yeah the obj export could be an issue, more generally... if it can't export a subdivided version, only the base... and this doesn't get resolved.

It's certainly a limitation.

Out of interest, does anyone know if the Poser + Genesis subdivision is being done dynamically. Or is it just doing some sort of geometry switching between obj files that have different subd applied?

Are the Genesis obj files sitting on disk, in the installed Essentials content? Or is the Genesis geometry data compiled into the DSONLoader component(s)?

Quote - I will play it - you are a genesis vendor, and as such, you do have a vested interest in genesis - suggesting that you are "just another customer and nothing more" is a bit much.

Well you play it incorrectly and unnecessarily. People play this card when they run out of valid arguments to give. So a saturation of mini skirts, school girl outfits, cop outfits, bras and panties for V4 made by others has to do with me being a vendor how again? Please keep your points together. Hope I made that very clear.

Quote - Much like Apollo Maximus or Miki, Genesis is a niche character - it hasn't replaced Gen4 and I don't think that will happen anytime soon, because the vendors outside of those who sell at DAZ haven't embraced it. Here at Rosity, there are what, 3 genesis clothing content vendors? I see Sickleyield, Dzheng, and Oskarsson. As far as characters, most genesis characters seem to come with a Gen4 character also.

You know, I heard this same argument when Genesis came out, yet it ended up taking most of the new characters and clothing in the DAZ store.... so much it was a created firestorms on the various forums.... many that you were involved in...

Now that it's in poser, it seems you shifted your arguments again like you'll never be satisfied and that's fine. You have an emotional attachment to this whole subject. However the subject "Can someone unemotionally state the advantages of Genesis over V4/M4 in Poser?", so if you can't do that, especially throwing an "you're a genesis vendor" attack at me for no reason, then perhaps you should find another topic discuss until you can do as the OP asked. ;)

Quote - DSON for Poser could possibly prime the pump as far as customer demand, but the vendors have yet to embrace it. That may change if DAZ ever gets it's act together with respect to documentation, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

OK, but the importer has been out less than a week, and I'm sure vendors are busy updating their products so Poser users can use them, or taking time to find out how to create items for it.

Quote - DAZ doesn't appear to have gotten much documetation completed in the last 15 months or so.

But how does this relate to the emotional advantages of genesis over V4/M4? It doesn't. Sounds like an app war comment to me?

Quote - As a customer, I can see a use for genesis, if Dimension3D gets his Genesis Generation X and his Gen3 add-on pack working in Poser. Or if Oskarsson's Preteens for Genesis work with the DSON importer.

Well that's up to the vendors, but have nothing to do with with the topic. You're being emotional again. ;)

Quote - The only thing I see genesis being good for is filling in the missing Gen3 characters (The YT's and David). I don't do fantasy or portraits, so what little content is available isn't much use.

Unfortuately, if you want content for young adults you probably going to have to work for it and use a little creativity. It's a v4 world so you have to borrow clothes from other figures. I've been able to clothe some of my figures by taking clothes from other figures not supported by cross dresser and scale and resize them against genesis in DS, the export the obj, adjust the cloth in zbrush then rig the result. But then I can use that for my figures and now create the companion files so i can use that result in Poser in case I want to render there.

But genesis does allow you to fill in the gaps that Gen4 left open.

Quote - ...yeah the obj export could be an issue, more generally... if it can't export a subdivided version, only the base... and this doesn't get resolved.

It's certainly a limitation.

especially when you think of things like Pose2Lux or the upcoming Reality3 or Octane PlugIns.

Quote - Out of interest, does anyone know if the Poser + Genesis subdivision is being done dynamically. Or is it just doing some sort of geometry switching between obj files that have different subd applied?

I export Genesis at SubD 0.Import to C4D if I want it SubD I can in C4D.
GoZ to zBrush at 0.

If your making morphs for Genesis you make the morphs on the base "not SubD" mesh.

Most app's use catmull clark to SubD there meshes it's what D/S Pro uses.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - > Quote - ...yeah the obj export could be an issue, more generally... if it can't export a subdivided version, only the base... and this doesn't get resolved.

It's certainly a limitation.

especially when you think of things like Pose2Lux or the upcoming Reality3 or Octane PlugIns.

Yeah, it was those kind of uses I was thinking of... I reckon Paolo will now have to give the Genesis + Poser compatibility some consideration, relative to Reality3?

EDIT: Of course, Snarlygribbly has already shown that subd can be applied separately, via his own subdivider script... I'm sure Paolo could factor in something similar if he had to?

Quote - > Quote - Out of interest, does anyone know if the Poser + Genesis subdivision is being done dynamically. Or is it just doing some sort of geometry switching between obj files that have different subd applied?

I export Genesis at SubD 0.Import to C4D if I want it SubD I can in C4D.
GoZ to zBrush at 0.

If your making morphs for Genesis you make the morphs on the base "not SubD" mesh.

Most app's use catmull clark to SubD there meshes it's what D/S Pro uses.

Yes, thanks... I knew that, in fact... for once. He he
I was more just intrigued, from a technical perspective, as to whether there was on-the-fly catmull clark subd being applied via the DSON Loader, or associated components. Or whether the subd was pre-applied ("pre-baked") and the subd dial and script menu options were basically just geometry-switching in some way, between different subd versions of the mesh?

It also occurred to me to wonder where the Genesis obj / geometry data lived in the DSONLoader install... I will investigate that later I guess... just my own curiosity there I suppose...

Quote -

second drawback:

Poser doesn't export the Genesis figure correct. neither to Vue nor as OBJ you seem to get a sub-devided mesh (see butt in image above), so external rendering is a no-go, what breaks my workflow.

If your talking about that zigzag line across the butt, I don't think its a subdivision or smoothing error. It looks like a split edge, along a material zone (or perhaps just a phong break, I can't tell.) The smoothness of the rest of the mesh suggests theres no problem with smoothing or sub-division.

Is there a split/break on textures option either in the export or in the import that needs switching off?

regards
prixat

Quote -

If your talking about that zigzag line across the butt, I don't think its a subdivision or smoothing error. It looks like a split edge, along a material zone (or perhaps just a phong break, I can't tell.) The smoothness of the rest of the mesh suggests theres no problem with smoothing or sub-division.

Is there a split/break on textures option either in the export or in the import that needs switching off?

Actually, it's one of her fingers poking through her backside.

Oh wait no ... you're talkng about what looks like the seam between the hip and the waist, or more probably the hip and the thighs or buttocks. That is possibly where the two groups meet.

Quote - well, sadly i rather found disadvantages.

the importer thingie worked quite well, also the figure seems to morph fine (i only have the starter pack) but after some playing things came to an aprupt halt for me.

No one noticed the -very- conservative limits they have put on every single axis?

try to bend the arms behind the back - you can't. raise the knees, it stops at a very low angle.

try a more 'extreme' Spiderman-Pose.....

sure, you can tick those limits off, but this can become a very tedious work after a while and shouldn't be nescessary in the first place.

it's a first disadvantage.

second drawback:

Poser doesn't export the Genesis figure correct. neither to Vue nor as OBJ you seem to get a sub-devided mesh (see butt in image above), so external rendering is a no-go, what breaks my workflow.

third point, already mentioned, without spending a lot of money you can't do anything with the figure, what may be nice for DAZ, but i'm not willing to do.

my impression is - if you'd like to work with Genesis - do it in DAZ Studio, that'll probably save you some trouble.

edit: oh - and don't click on "Figure - Use limits" - or pooooff - genesis dissapears like a jinny :)

Some interesting feedback, so thanks for sharing.

Quote - but the export issue is more general, it seems. the image i posted above is from a simple OBJ export rendered in Octane. there's definitely a smoothing (or sub-dividing) problem going on.

It would make sense for the obj not to be subdivided. Subdivision isn't native to Poser so I think it would have to be added in order to export subdivided meshes. But if SM can open up the export routines to the subdividing routines of the plugin then it may work. I'm thinking the first step of the importer is to get kinks ironed out of how it works within the main application (where most of the time through setup and work is done), then work on how it's sent out to other applications like through Poserfusion.

I will point out that Vue doesn't handle, at this time, Sub-D of any type.

LuxRender does use Catmull-Clark Sub-D, you should be able to set the sub-D level to -1 in Poser then let Lux do the Sub-D.

Looks like Octane also supports, or will shortly support Catmull-Clark Sub-D.

> Quote - I will point out that Vue doesn't handle, at this time, Sub-D of any type.

That's not correct. Vue 10 (If I recall correctly at least 9.5 also) does support SubD in several algorithms. See the attached screenshot of the options for a Genesis figure imported as .OBJ from Poser. You can choose the smoothing/subdivision type and Catmull-Clark is one of the options. In "iterations" you set the number of subdivision levels. If you watch the mesh you can see its density increasing as you up the iterations. See page 146 in the manual. Please note that this might be a feature of Vue Infinite, not sure.

Ciao

Quote - > Quote - I will point out that Vue doesn't handle, at this time, Sub-D of any type.

That's not correct. Vue 10 (If I recall correctly at least 9.5 also) does support SubD in several algorithms. See the attached screenshot of the options for a Genesis figure imported as .OBJ from Poser. You can choose the smoothing/subdivision type and Catmull-Clark is one of the options. In "iterations" you set the number of subdivision levels. If you watch the mesh you can see its density increasing as you up the iterations. See page 146 in the manual. Please note that this might be a feature of Vue Infinite, not sure.

Ciao

TD

Definitely new then. :) Google failed me. :) Setting Genesis at Sub-D Level -1 and letting Vue do the Sub-D should then work. Since I don't have Vue above 8, I can't check this personally, but it should improve the image posted above.

> Quote - Definitely new then. :) Google failed me. :) Setting Genesis at Sub-D Level -1 and letting Vue do the Sub-D should then work. Since I don't have Vue above 8, I can't check this personally, but it should improve the image posted above.

OBJ export from Poser pro 2012 to Vue works fine. You actually get both the base and the subD mesh as default (if the subD bone is checked in export options). If you do that you can go directly from Poser to Vue with the subD intact (no need to do it Vue, but you can subdivide in Vue). If you do not deselect the other bones (other than subD and the "internals": teeth, eyes,...), you get two copies of the figure in Vue on top of each other. One subdivided, one not.

The screenshot shows what I am talking about: The obj import has two meshes for Genesis: _SUBD is the already subdivided mesh from Poser (150976 Polygons) and the rest are the groups of the un-subdivided mesh (total of 37744 Polygons). They import both in the same position obviously.

Ciao

seems, the cage gets exorted, too.

You no how there was a V3.obj ,V4.obj in geometry folder.
Is there a V5.obj in geometry folder ?
If yes what is the polycount ?
If no.
If you export genesis out of Poser at SubD 0 what is the polycount ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

yup, there's definitely a second mesh overlayed:

the export obviously needs some work...

The obj export works fine as long as you export either:

Only the subD bone of the sub-divided Genesis (and the necessary "internals" eyes, teeth...)
Only the base/cage and then sub-divide in your target app.

In the image above I used Genesis with the V5 morph and exported her with Poser Pro 2012 as .obj. The resolution was set to Subdivision level 2. Only the subD bone was selected for export. The resulting obj was then imported into Vue 10.5 Infinte and rendered (no subdivision in Vue).

Looks fine to me.

Quote -
You no how there was a V3.obj ,V4.obj in geometry folder.
Is there a V5.obj in geometry folder ?
If yes what is the polycount ?
If no.
If you export genesis out of Poser at SubD 0 what is the polycount ?

There is no V5.obj because V5 is a morph of Genesis. You need to look at the Genesis geometry. As far as I know the geometry for Genesis is stored in the data folder. Formerly in the DAZ Studio specific formats and now in the DSON compatible ones.

If I export Genesis from Poser as .obj with subdivision level set to -1 or 0 (i.e. off) Vue shows 37744 quads which for some reason is 2* the amount that the lowest level in DAZ Studio has (18872 and no, that is NOT because the mesh is doubled). Not sure why.

Ciao

Quote - The obj export works fine as long as you export either:

Only the subD bone of the sub-divided Genesis (and the necessary "internals" eyes, teeth...)

Only the base/cage and then sub-divide in your target app.

In the image above I used Genesis with the V5 morph and exported her with Poser Pro 2012 as .obj. The resolution was set to Subdivision level 2. Only the subD bone was selected for export. The resulting obj was then imported into Vue 10.5 Infinte and rendered (no subdivision in Vue).

Looks fine to me.

TD

indeed. you never stop learning.

Good to know, relative to Vue... and indeed generally, regarding how the export / subd interact.

Many thanks

Quote -
You no how there was a V3.obj ,V4.obj in geometry folder.
Is there a V5.obj in geometry folder ?
If yes what is the polycount ?
If no.
If you export genesis out of Poser at SubD 0 what is the polycount ?

The V3 and V4 obj are not actualaly v3 and V4, but are a shape designed for clothes conversion. Use -1 not 0. 19K quads.

Quote - > Quote -

You no how there was a V3.obj ,V4.obj in geometry folder.
Is there a V5.obj in geometry folder ?
If yes what is the polycount ?
If no.
If you export genesis out of Poser at SubD 0 what is the polycount ?

There is no V5.obj because V5 is a morph of Genesis. You need to look at the Genesis geometry. As far as I know the geometry for Genesis is stored in the data folder. Formerly in the DAZ Studio specific formats and now in the DSON compatible ones.

If I export Genesis from Poser as .obj with subdivision level set to -1 or 0 (i.e. off) Vue shows 37744 quads which for some reason is 2* the amount that the lowest level in DAZ Studio has (18872 and no, that is NOT because the mesh is doubled). Not sure why.

Ciao

TD

Is Vue triangulating the mesh?

Is Vue triangulating the mesh?

That would do it ...

Quote - Is Vue triangulating the mesh?

Yup, that's it. You are correct. I just had a close look and Vue does indeed divide each quad into two triangles. This accounts for the doubled polygon count.

It seems that vue can still apply Catmull-Clark to the quads and then re-tringulate. But the final mesh is always triangulated in Vue.

Thanks!

Quote - If I might ask again for steps or links ... how does one transfer Generation 4 morphs over to Genesis again? I remember seeing it in one of these threads, but like a dummy I didn't book mark it.

Generation X by Dimension 3D, if you mean more than the Base V4 shape.

Quote - > Quote - If I might ask again for steps or links ... how does one transfer Generation 4 morphs over to Genesis again? I remember seeing it in one of these threads, but like a dummy I didn't book mark it.

Generation X by Dimension 3D, if you mean more than the Base V4 shape.

Perhaps you might be able to answer this off the top of your head. Tried it the other night with an M4 character morph; but the head morph shifts the eye sockets downward substantially. The eyes were still in their original positions, and there was no morph dial for the eyes, so I'm assuming the eyes are moved with translations in the original figure.

Couldn't find a place in DS4.5 or in GenX to account for the translations. What is the best way around that?

(In other words, the head morph seemed to transfer fine; but the eye translations to move the eyes where they were supposed to be seemed to NOT transfer, and I wasn't sure what I would need to do to get them to move. There was no "checkbox" in GenX to account for the eye positions).

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - If I might ask again for steps or links ... how does one transfer Generation 4 morphs over to Genesis again? I remember seeing it in one of these threads, but like a dummy I didn't book mark it.

Generation X by Dimension 3D, if you mean more than the Base V4 shape.

Perhaps you might be able to answer this off the top of your head. Tried it the other night with an M4 character morph; but the head morph shifts the eye sockets downward substantially. The eyes were still in their original positions, and there was no morph dial for the eyes, so I'm assuming the eyes are moved with translations in the original figure.

Couldn't find a place in DS4.5 or in GenX to account for the translations. What is the best way around that?

(In other words, the head morph seemed to transfer fine; but the eye translations to move the eyes where they were supposed to be seemed to NOT transfer, and I wasn't sure what I would need to do to get them to move. There was no "checkbox" in GenX to account for the eye positions).

This may be part of the problem with scaling we are having now. Daz will have to fix that.

Laurie

I didn't get that far ... the eye translations were "off" in DAZ Studio as well, after converting from M4 to Genesis.

It might be that I'm doing something wrong, but this shows what I mean (these in DS 4.5)

Bear in mind I haven't used DS since version 3.1-ish and the interface has changed a whole lot since then too 8-)

And for another comparison ... this is M4 with the morph dialed in in Genesis, rather than M5.

> Quote - I didn't get that far ... the eye translations were "off" in DAZ Studio as well, after converting from M4 to Genesis. > > It might be that I'm doing something wrong, but this shows what I mean (these in DS 4.5) > > Bear in mind I haven't used DS since version 3.1-ish and the interface has changed a whole lot since then too 8-)

Try exporting the whole head as an obj and load that into a CR2, that should put the eyes in a better position. I would also scale the head down by 2%; it's a big large even on the default M4.

Quote - > Quote - I didn't get that far ... the eye translations were "off" in DAZ Studio as well, after converting from M4 to Genesis.

It might be that I'm doing something wrong, but this shows what I mean (these in DS 4.5)

Bear in mind I haven't used DS since version 3.1-ish and the interface has changed a whole lot since then too 8-)

Try exporting the whole head as an obj and load that into a CR2, that should put the eyes in a better position.

Can you clarify? The eyes are separate geometry from the head ... I'm not understanding how just exporting the head would affect the eyes.

Quote - > Quote - I didn't get that far ... the eye translations were "off" in DAZ Studio as well, after converting from M4 to Genesis.

It might be that I'm doing something wrong, but this shows what I mean (these in DS 4.5)

Bear in mind I haven't used DS since version 3.1-ish and the interface has changed a whole lot since then too 8-)

Try exporting the whole head as an obj and load that into a CR2, that should put the eyes in a better position. I would also scale the head down by 2%; it's a big large even on the default M4.

Oooh, didn't see the pic the first time. There ya go!!! LOL

'Splain 8-)

You can export the head, neck and eyes to an obj. Load those morphs into the a CR2 as a morph target. When the eyes are a morph target, then it shouldn't use translations.

Quote - You can export the head, neck and eyes to an obj. Load those morphs into the a CR2 as a morph target. When the eyes are a morph target, then it shouldn't use translations.

AH! Gocha.

Ehliasys wrote;

Quote - No one noticed the -very- conservative limits they have put on every single axis? try to bend the arms behind the back - you can't.

Sure you can. You need to rotate the collar, along with the forearm and shoulder just like in real life.

Ehliasys wrote;

Quote - raise the knees, it stops at a very low angle.

Not really. That's probably about as far as the average person can raise their knee without tilting their pelvis. I haven't checked all the limits, but they seem about right. Of course a gymnast, a contortionist etc can bend beyond those limits, but for realistic bends for an average person the limits seem to be correct.

Learning how a body twists and bends in real life will help enormously when posing your 3D figures.

Ehliasys wrote;

Quote - third point, already mentioned, without spending a lot of money you can't do anything with the figure,

That's true of any figure. Well, except Apollo.

Coldrake

Quote - And for another comparison ... this is M4 with the morph dialed in in Genesis, rather than M5.

When working With GenX, and you have your CR2 with the morph loaded, You MUST click the eyes as well, and the morphs that are directly related to the shape. Then with the eyes, head and all that makes the morph, I choose "create single morph". Most people just choose the head and forget that under L eye and R eye there are morphs that are related to the new face as well. These need to be translated as well in most cases.

My Renderosity Store

Is this correct ?

Poser Genesis works in Poser 9 ,Poser Pro 2012 ?
To make content for Poser Genesis a vender needs Poser Pro 2012 ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Nope..You just need the latest version of Daz to make the content for PG. In order to use it or Test you need Poser Pro 2012. But I'm sure you can get someone to do that for you.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - > Quote - And for another comparison ... this is M4 with the morph dialed in in Genesis, rather than M5.

When working With GenX, and you have your CR2 with the morph loaded, You MUST click the eyes as well, and the morphs that are directly related to the shape. Then with the eyes, head and all that makes the morph, I choose "create single morph". Most people just choose the head and forget that under L eye and R eye there are morphs that are related to the new face as well. These need to be translated as well in most cases.

That's where I was confused. I realize that dials have to be set for some characters, and if the dials were not set in the Michael 4 character before creating that morph, it would have been obvious that they weren't set properly in Michael 4 as well. But as you see from my screen shots, the eyes were set properly in Michael 4. So this appears to be related to eye translations. The morph was all properly dialed in on Michael 4 when I injected him into Michael 4, and looked exactly as shown in the left side of the two screen shots that I posted above. I then saved that as a CR2, just as the instructions said, and then dragged and dropped that CR2 into GenX.

When I brought it into GenX, there were no eye movement morphs to check, other than the standard Up/Down and Side/Side morphs which are rotational rather than translational. That seemed to indicate to me that the eye position change was done with translation dials, and not with a morph.

After dragging the CR2 (exactly as you see in those shots on the left) into GenX, there was a list of morphs to include/exclude for "Head", and a list for "Body." There were a couple of morphs for eyes, but they were Up/Down and Side/Side type morphs that also affected the eyelids. GenX didn't list anything at all for the eyes, and I couldn't figure out where I should look, or how to get them in there. There WERE no Morph Dials for "Rapper" transferred over to Genesis or Michael 5 to dial in. That was the problem.

So that is what prompted the questions. 8-)

Sometimes there is something like a "Eye Fix" morph that sits under body or head. It varys from character to character and how vendors set it up. If not I just adjust the translation myself and save as an eye pose preset.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - Is this correct ?

Poser Genesis works in Poser 9 ,Poser Pro 2012 ?
To make content for Poser Genesis a vender needs Poser Pro 2012 ?

That is incorrect. To make content for Genesis, with the exception of Material files, a vender needs DAZ Studio 4.5.1.6 or later.

I love the way the Genesis female takes all the V4 textures and poses - with slight tweaking to the poses. She bends well, too.

Will the Genesis male take M4 poses?

Quote - > Quote - If I might ask again for steps or links ... how does one transfer Generation 4 morphs over to Genesis again? I remember seeing it in one of these threads, but like a dummy I didn't book mark it.

Generation X by Dimension 3D, if you mean more than the Base V4 shape.

Not totally necessary, but it is easier, as I understand it.

I posted an alternative method using DS alone (ala Transfer Utility) on the Poser...heaven thread

Quote - Will the Genesis male take M4 poses?

Yes, usually quite well with some minor tweaking (mostly correcting the foot poses).

Ciao

Quote - Will the Genesis male take M4 poses?

The hand/fingers/feet/toes are often a problem and need to be zeroed and reposed. Rest of the M4/V4 pose seems to work fine (apart from the usual tweaking according to the changed bodysizes)

Can you make Genesis content just using Poser Pro 2012.
or do you half to have D/S Pro 4.5 to make content ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Can you make Genesis content just using Poser Pro 2012.
or do you half to have D/S Pro 4.5 to make content ?

You have to use DS. Genesis is not native to Poser so Poser's tools won't make the necessary files.

Here's my experience of Genesis so far...

First off let me say that I've been a huge fan of V4 and I worked on V4WM so we could get the most out of our V4 stuff in P9/PP2012. That being said I decided to try out the DSON importer to see how Genesis worked in Poser (it was free after all).

The first thing I noticed was the bending. I think it's safe to say that there is no figure in Poserdom that bends as well as Genesis.

The second thing I noticed was that I could use all of my old V4/M4 materials. That was pretty great.

After some testing and researching I found out that I can convert all my old Gen4 clothes through Daz Studio and that let to something AMAZING! When you've succesfully converted clothing for Genesis all your morphs work on the clothing in Poser.That means you can use V4 clothing on Genesis, V5, M5 and any character you own for Genesis including M4 and V4 :)

I then went and bought Genesis Generation X and that made it possible to export all my old Gen4 morphs to Genesis. That's right! NGM, NBM, Elite etc. all work on Genesis in Poser and the morphs can be transferred to any clothing item as well!

It's wrong that you have to buy stuff for hundreds if dollars to enjoy Genesis. With a little work you can use most of your old stuff.

So to answer the OP question, Genesis can be M4, V4 and a whole lot more!!

Vestmann's Gallery

Quote - > Quote - Can you make Genesis content just using Poser Pro 2012.

or do you half to have D/S Pro 4.5 to make content ?

You have to use DS. Genesis is not native to Poser so Poser's tools won't make the necessary files.

This was a while back.Started to learn Blender "think it was 4 "then they changed the UI .LOL.

Started to learn D/S Pro 4 ,They made a new web Site ,Lost the forums .LOL.

Think it would be a lot of fun making content.
Think I'll make the content.Modeled in C4D ,Mapped Textured in zBrush.
Is zBrush UV Master acceptable for D/S Pro 4.5 ,Poser 9 ,Poser Pro 2012 ?
I could Map them in Blender.

Get partners to make it work in D/S Pro 4.5 ,Poser 9 ,Poser Pro 2012.

Is that a good or bad idea ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

One thing that's still not clear to me is, how to get any of the (custom) V4-Charcters into Genesis.

Straightly asked:

If I look at the right side of this website, I see the "What's Hot Today" ads. In there I see "Betty for V4 .. " by Vyktohria. (Just to use her as an example, for my question).

How would I get "her" (or any other character on that matter) into Genesis in Poser?

Can someone please tell me how this could be done, and what else, beside the installed DSON-Importer, i eventually would need to accomplish this?

Yeah, that's a good question ErickL88. I'd be interested to know as well ;).

Laurie

> Quote - One thing that's still not clear to me is, how to get any of the (custom) V4-Charcters into Genesis. > > Straightly asked: > > If I look at the right side of this website, I see the "What's Hot Today" ads. In there I see "Betty for V4 .. " by Vyktohria. (Just to use her as an example, for my question). > > How would I get "her" (or any other character on that matter) into Genesis in Poser? > > Can someone please tell me how this could be done, and what else, beside the installed DSON-Importer, i eventually would need to accomplish this?

You can do it the same way as I transferred GND4: Using the GenX plugin. There is a couple of ways to do this but my preferred way is to save a CR2 in Poser with the custom morph injected and then read that one into GenX in DS4.5 and transfer the morph(s). Then you can just load up Genesis in Poser and the morphs are there. You just dial up V4 and add the custom morph (you can also tell GenX to make a preset for that purpose and then generate a Poser Companion file). The whole process takes only a couple of minutes. The image shows a quick render of GND4 with "Breast Tiny" morph on Genesis in Poser 2012.

Ciao

Why do u need Poser companion files from Genx? I just copied my Genx data folder from my Daz library over to to my poser Genesis library and all the morphs work fine?

My Renderosity Store

Quote - One thing that's still not clear to me is, how to get any of the (custom) V4-Charcters into Genesis.

Straightly asked:

If I look at the right side of this website, I see the "What's Hot Today" ads. In there I see "Betty for V4 .. " by Vyktohria. (Just to use her as an example, for my question).

How would I get "her" (or any other character on that matter) into Genesis in Poser?

Can someone please tell me how this could be done, and what else, beside the installed DSON-Importer, i eventually would need to accomplish this?

You would need GenX from Dimension3D

After you installed it, there are several ways to go, but this is the road I take

In DS4.5 you drag V4 into GenX, then you drag Base morphs into Genx, then morphs++ and any other pack the character needs in Poser.

After you have done that, you choose with the Select button Transfer:On for all Non-zero values. In the box next to it you select "Selected morphs with preset"

Now press transfer - then it will prompt you with a location to store your preset for the character. Choose a location which you can access from Poser (in one of its runtimes)

Now - here the tricky part. If you have not shared your DS4 runtime with poser but another one (specified in the essentials installation), copy the genx morphs which were created in DS4 to that runtime. Same relative location. It is in the data folder of DS4 (in my case it is DS4dataDAZ 3dGenesisBaseMorphsD3D Gen X)
There are several data folder in my DS4 and you have to find the right one. Use exactly that location

After that you can load Genesis and apply the preset. Then use Basic Female (or Mec4Ds script) to change UVMAP to V4, then apply the V4 mats

That worked for me (after some experimentation)

Quote - Why do u need Poser companion files from Genx? I just copied my Genx data folder from my Daz library over to to my poser Genesis library and all the morphs work fine?

You only need the Poser companion file if you set up a prest that loads the morph plus V4 and nipples/navel if you want it for quick loading. If you just want the morph in Poser you don't need the companion file. I also don't need to copy anything as Poser directly reads my Gensis from the DAZ Studio install.

Clothing conversion is not without problems. I have had several items which apparently do not convert to poser (looks fine in DS)

One of the more surrealistic ones is ArtemisX for V3. Here is the bodysuit after I conformed it to a V5

> Quote - Clothing conversion is not without problems. I have had several items which apparently do not convert to poser (looks fine in DS) > > One of the more surrealistic ones is ArtemisX for V3. Here is the bodysuit after I conformed it to a V5 > >

I had no trouble converting the V3 version of ArtemisX to Genesis in Poser. The image shows the bodysuit on Genesis with GND4 morph. Did you also start from the V3 version? And used Autofit?

Yes, I did

Autofitted the cloth (V3, bodysuit), saved the thing as a scene subset. Then did a DSON load of the items. When it loads, it looks ok. When I conform it blows up.

If I create a companion file for it, it never appears in Poser. It is really a mystery where that thing ends up

> Quote - Yes, I did > > Autofitted the cloth (V3, bodysuit), saved the thing as a scene subset. Then did a DSON load of the items. When it loads, it looks ok. When I conform it blows up. > > If I create a companion file for it, it never appears in Poser. It is really a mystery where that thing ends up > >

That is the difference. I saved it as a "Wearable Preset" and then generated the Poser companion files. Here is the whole set on V5. Conforms and morphs fine in Poser. Try that way and see if it works for you, too.

If I do that, I get the message "you jmust select a figure in the scene with other objects fit or parented to it to save a wearable preset"

I had selected the bodysuit when I tried to save it as such.

But a preset - is that the item or a settings file?

Quote - If I do that, I get the message "you jmust select a figure in the scene with other objects fit or parented to it to save a wearable preset"

I had selected the bodysuit when I tried to save it as such.

But a preset - is that the item or a settings file?

You need to select the figure (Genesis) that you conformed (fit to) the clothing to. I usually just use the unmorphed Genesis base. Then you get a dialog that allows you to select what you what to save.

Ok, now I got it to work. If I drag the suit now on genesis, it conforms without a problem

But there is still a bug. If I load the suit first, then load genesis, then conform the cloth to genesis, it blows up again.

So it looks like the conversion causes some kind of conforming bug and that's why it fails with the DSON loader. (the script does not conform the item)

Try it out for yourself (load suit, load genesis, then conform)

Quote - But a preset - is that the item or a settings file?

The wearable preset contains all the info that is needed to load the item from the data folder where all DS items are residing.

Now I get the other problem which I see with autofitted clothing (I saw it on other clothing as well). The abdomen scales wrong

See attached wireframe. I loaded a preset onto genesis of a V4 character. The character looks fine, but after Transfer active Morphs I get this

Quote - Try it out for yourself (load suit, load genesis, then conform)

Yup, I get the same effect if I load the clothing first. That's not something I usually do, so I had never noticed. Not much of an issue for me, but should probably reported. I'll check the bug tracker to see if there is anything in there.

Quote - > Quote - One thing that's still not clear to me is, how to get any of the (custom) V4-Charcters into Genesis.

Straightly asked:

If I look at the right side of this website, I see the "What's Hot Today" ads. In there I see "Betty for V4 .. " by Vyktohria. (Just to use her as an example, for my question).

How would I get "her" (or any other character on that matter) into Genesis in Poser?

Can someone please tell me how this could be done, and what else, beside the installed DSON-Importer, i eventually would need to accomplish this?

You can do it the same way as I transferred GND4: Using the GenX plugin. There is a couple of ways to do this but my preferred way is to save a CR2 in Poser with the custom morph injected and then read that one into GenX in DS4.5 and transfer the morph(s). Then you can just load up Genesis in Poser and the morphs are there. You just dial up V4 and add the custom morph (you can also tell GenX to make a preset for that purpose and then generate a Poser Companion file). The whole process takes only a couple of minutes. The image shows a quick render of GND4 with "Breast Tiny" morph on Genesis in Poser 2012.

Ciao

TD

GenX reads the Injection Pose file as well so you don't need the step of saving the CR2.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Can you make Genesis content just using Poser Pro 2012.

or do you half to have D/S Pro 4.5 to make content ?

You have to use DS. Genesis is not native to Poser so Poser's tools won't make the necessary files.

This was a while back.Started to learn Blender "think it was 4 "then they changed the UI .LOL.

Started to learn D/S Pro 4 ,They made a new web Site ,Lost the forums .LOL.

Think it would be a lot of fun making content.
Think I'll make the content.Modeled in C4D ,Mapped Textured in zBrush.
Is zBrush UV Master acceptable for D/S Pro 4.5 ,Poser 9 ,Poser Pro 2012 ?
I could Map them in Blender.

Get partners to make it work in D/S Pro 4.5 ,Poser 9 ,Poser Pro 2012.

Is that a good or bad idea ?

IIRC ZBrush's UV Master is Atlas mapping. While that will work, it isn't something most of these stores will generally accept if you intend to sell it as that makes it extremely difficult to make texture sets for the clothing. Your use of Poser will be limited to Material settings and testing, the rigging will have to be done in DAZ Studio. (Though the Transfer Utility in DS 4 Pro makes that easier than you would expect.)

It looks like the V3 and A3 autofitting has some bugs in the chest/abdomnen area (not the usual breast shrinkwrapping, but a scaling problem below the breast - see the wireframe a couple of posts above). I have seen this in a couple of outfits.
If I use the same V3 ArtemisX outfit, use crossdresser to convert it to V4, then use the auto fit to convert it to genesis, this particular problem is gone. Conversion is still not as good as with Crossdresser, but much better. Texture stretching remains an issue here and some pokethrough which Transfer active morphs does not fix

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Can you make Genesis content just using Poser Pro 2012.

or do you half to have D/S Pro 4.5 to make content ?

You have to use DS. Genesis is not native to Poser so Poser's tools won't make the necessary files.

This was a while back.Started to learn Blender "think it was 4 "then they changed the UI .LOL.

Started to learn D/S Pro 4 ,They made a new web Site ,Lost the forums .LOL.

Think it would be a lot of fun making content.
Think I'll make the content.Modeled in C4D ,Mapped Textured in zBrush.
Is zBrush UV Master acceptable for D/S Pro 4.5 ,Poser 9 ,Poser Pro 2012 ?
I could Map them in Blender.

Get partners to make it work in D/S Pro 4.5 ,Poser 9 ,Poser Pro 2012.

Is that a good or bad idea ?

IIRC ZBrush's UV Master is Atlas mapping. While that will work, it isn't something most of these stores will generally accept if you intend to sell it as that makes it extremely difficult to make texture sets for the clothing. Your use of Poser will be limited to Material settings and testing, the rigging will have to be done in DAZ Studio. (Though the Transfer Utility in DS 4 Pro makes that easier than you would expect.)

I never thought about that.
Thanks for the info.
I'll use Blender Mapper.

For now.
I'm just going to make stuff for D/S Pro ,Poser.in C4D ,Blender ,zBrush.
Then that will be the end of my involvement."Maybe after I learn all this stuff it will change".

Then have my partners convert it to work in D/S Pro ,Poser.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Can someone unemotionally state the advantages of Genesis over V4/M4 in Poser?