Every once in a while I like to post on this subject, for several reasons. First, because the Hair Room's potential is huge compared to transmapped hair. I'm talking in terms of flexibility and realism. So I want to encourage others in their efforts.

Second, the Hair Room is admittedly a bit of a challenge. But the more people who are using it and asking for improvements, the more likely it is that Smith Micro will continue to develop it into everything it can be.

Third, these discussions frequently draw out those who have been most successful with the Hair Room—people like Carodan, who has had some pretty astonishing dynamic hair renders—who throw out helpful tips that makes everyone better.

Although I'm gradually improving, my own biggest struggle with the Hair Room at this stage is getting a neat, predictable style so that the hair isn't either gapped or intertwined. So far as materials and rendering, I'm reasonably happy, although of course lighter hair is more of a challenge than darker hair. (Tip: make sure you check Opaque in Shadow—it really helps.)

One thing to observe is that dynamic hair by default loads with a shading rate of 8.00 (!). You need to change that if you want good renders. Also, if your computer can handle it change the thickness of the strands downward (and correspondingly, increase the quantity). My latest stuff is .15 at the tip and .4 at the root, which I think works pretty well.

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That's looking nice Believable3d.

I haven't done much if anything in the hair room as yet... I've just not known where to start with achieving a convincing effect with it.

What I've seen of Carodan's work in the hair room, for example, in a previous thread here, looked amazing though... seeing some more info and examples on effective use of the hair room, here in the forum, would be great. 

Here's one that I'm working on right now.

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This one is my favorite style. I'm thinking I should remake it for an adult but maybe it's too cutsie for that.

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I think these 2 show a bit of what dynamic hair can do as far as movement.

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Here's one I did not too long ago.

                                                                                                                    

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

 

This one look very nice, need just working on the shader ;)

Génération mobiles Le Forum / Le Site

 

Nice.  I'll have to check the dynamic hair and experiment.

Hair and clothing experiment

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I wonder whether people would be willing to share their dynamic settings as well, the hair room is one room that has always intrigued me and always eluded me.....

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My freestuff   

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Here are some of mine:  I mostly use the Hair room for fur on my clothing creations.

This one has two sets: one on the shoulder cape, and another setting on the boots.  

RosemaryR
---------------------------
"This...this is magnificent!"
"Oh, yeah. Ooooo. Aaaaah. That's how it starts.
Then, later, there's ...running. And....screaming."

I used a shorter setting for denser fur on this piece.

RosemaryR
---------------------------
"This...this is magnificent!"
"Oh, yeah. Ooooo. Aaaaah. That's how it starts.
Then, later, there's ...running. And....screaming."

I also included several pre-made hair settings on my ShareCQ fur hats  (which currently seems to be offline at the moment, or I would give a link.) 

 

 

 

RosemaryR
---------------------------
"This...this is magnificent!"
"Oh, yeah. Ooooo. Aaaaah. That's how it starts.
Then, later, there's ...running. And....screaming."

Good to see this aspect of Poser gets attention. I have always been at a loss when it comes to the hair room.

I remember one single successful appliciation that used a 'moniker', a low-res cape type representation of the figure that was used as collision surface. The hair was connected to the moniker, and the moniker was to be conformed to the figure. The moniker was fully transparant and just served as collision surface.  

Hello,

this is how far I got.  Always fighting with bald spots ;-)

 

Best regards,

   Michael

 

 

 

 

 

 I like the top one! The hair is falling as it should. No small thing when most poser hair does not! Care to share settings?

Quote - I think these 2 show a bit of what dynamic hair can do as far as movement.

Looks good!

Quote - Here are some of mine:  I mostly use the Hair room for fur on my clothing creations.

This one has two sets: one on the shoulder cape, and another setting on the boots.  

Looks very good indeed.

 

Quote - Hello,

this is how far I got.  Always fighting with bald spots ;-)

 

Best regards,

   Michael

 

 

 

 

 

good idea for a thread!

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Here is the settings for the one of Vicky leaning forwards.

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Another hair colour. One of the key things with blonde is not to get it too light and bright. Most real hair isn't like that.

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for those who want to kick off, I did some hair room tuts on my website (www.book.artbeeweb.nl). They clarify the principles and the settings at least. Please note that some settings follow your global Poser Units settings, so people using metrics (meter) need values different from those using Imperial units (inches).

I had some personal - time consuming - drawbacks last months, but I'll pick up the last open ends of the hair (and cloth) tuts in a month or so.

Good thread, thanks for starting it (and for contributing). My general opinion on the presented examples is that thinner hair at higher density might look more natural, more "city girl" and less "farmers daughter".

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

I have used nothing but dynamic hair since it was first introduced, but I very seldom drape it. For shorter styles it is not needed and if used the hair droops and loses the styling.

This is a typical hair of mine.

impressive, great character too!

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Another example

dadt, you can add 'maitre coiffeur' in your profile! Chapeau!

Quote - I have used nothing but dynamic hair since it was first introduced, but I very seldom drape it. For shorter styles it is not needed and if used the hair droops and loses the styling.

This is a typical hair of mine.

 

Love it - this one works particularly well.

I really want to see the hair room develop in the next versions of Poser. As has already been said, huge potential but tricky to get a grasp of. There are also some shortcomings with regard to shading & lighting.

 

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A few examples...

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

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shadows not so good on this one

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

kink settings etc

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

A little grey hair (maybe a bit wirey)

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

shorter...(actually this was a James strand hair)

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

You can get pretty fine strands going

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

That first one again in different lighting

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Daniel,

 

Did you have emitter unchecked? If not, have you rendered any of these in Pro2012? These are great. I wonder why light beams do not seem to penetrate through the hair strands onto the shoulders on (2nd) above?

I like that curly style.  (And your model looks like Cally from Blake's 7.  ;-)

I am not using dynamic hair as much as I used to, because the shaders I used to use with older versions of Poser don't look the same.  For some reason, dynamic hair really looks different depending on the lighting.  Shaders that were very glossy, maybe even too shiny with conventional lighting look very flat and dull under the envirosphere. 

richardson - emitter was checked, but these were a good while ago (I think PP2012 though). I should revisit.

randym77 - heh, now that's a blast from the past...Blakes7. The lack of shine under EnvSphere will be due to IDL only dealing with diffuse light - no specular.

 

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i was looking forward to seeing some examples from tool_pepe, in a previous thread much earlier this year he was making some great dynamic hairs...

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A very simple hair for Blakes 7 fans

The only thing close to a successful dynamic hair render I have to offer.  I still can't swing the hair design tools, even those I put together myself.  :lol: 

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Some stylized dynamic hair I did some months ago. I tried to resemble a real coupe from a photo, but it was harder than I thought.

best regards,

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

This is one of Adorana's hair, but made fit for V4 and a bit restyled.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Another of Adorana, also made fit for V4 and a little restyling. The restyling was mostly a raise of the numbers of hairs, and making the hair a little longer. And a new shader.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

An experiment with dynamic "wet" hair.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Is anyone here trying SSS on hair? I realize it would completely bog down the time of the render, but if I understand things right, it should have good effect on the appearance.

As it is, with my new system, I'm keeping everything fully visible to raytracing and acting as emitters. Couldn't do that with my old machine....

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I tried the ezskin hair shader on it but that didn't work at all. There was a thread on it at rdna but it was a no go. Someone said it was because the hair didn't have any true geometry. Here is the link if you want it.  http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?73865-SSS-on-dynamic-hair

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Thanks, RedPhantom. It would be nice if the SM developers would weigh in whether or not it can be done. I wonder if it would make much difference.

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I just love how light plays off Hair Room hair compared to transmapped.

Could have gone a little finer with the hair strands here. I've backed off my fineness settings a little with recent renders to get things to look fuller, but I'm working my way back down while upping density.

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This was my very first render after I got Poser 9, it was my first try at EZskin and also love dynamic hair but it was too slow in Poser 7 so I wanted to see if it was faster and thank goodness it was cause this looks great...

The hair is Jessi_Short_Blonde that came with Poser 9, and it has a custom shader I made for the hair...The character is Katy for V4 (DAZ)... Hope you like it:

 

Yeah, that Jessi Short hair is a nice little easy-to-use one. Your render looks good, but you can get it even better with further shader work.

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Oh I know that, that was like 4 months ago... I'm waaaaaaaay better now, lol... that's just my favorite dynamic hairstyle

Here's a low quality render of a Hair Room beard I quickly threw together. (Still took a little while to render even on my machine, due to leaving the beard props as light emitters and visible in raytracing. Got a ways to go to figure out how to make that look good....

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here is some fur I did. http://www.runtimedna.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=7&pos=0 That was just M#'s Santa suit that I've had foreven and added hair to the trim finally.

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So much great hair room work showing up here!

I hope this does inspire SM to give some decent focus to improving the hair room for the next release.

What main improvements to the hair room would those folk using it currently like to see most?

Has anyone published any hair room preset python scripts or anything?

What, if any, off-the-shelf dynamic hair products would people recommend?

I'm keen to use it too for animals.

I know Tiny did some great looking work on dynamic fur for the MilCat...

I would like to see a few things:

• Possibly a "hair brush" tool sorta like in Zbrush 4

• A symmetry tool or atleast the ability to mirror a hair growth group and settings for things like braids, etc...

• A Poser 9/PPro2012 SSS shader for dynamic hair

• Maybe something like a "quick view" button which would allow you to do a low resolution render just to spot imperfections in the hair and the ability to edit the hair while in "quick view" mode.

• I would also like Poser to basically detect and prevent the hair from going into the figure... The dynamic part doesn't really matter if the hair is already intercepting the figure...

Quote - What main improvements to the hair room would those folk using it currently like to see most?

I think everybody is agreed that the styling tools are unwieldy and unintuitive. Improvements in this area would be most welcome.

I would also like more control over the simulation: the ability to save and load simulations; the ability to determine start and end frame of the sim; the possibility of having successive different sims.

It would be nice to be able to do the sim in the background or in some kind of Simulation Queue Manager - at the moment it chugs along quite happily for hours using very little CPU or RAM (just like cloth sims) but blocks Poser.

I would also like some decent documentation on what the hair node in the material room is actually doing. I can get some very decent results but it's a bit trial and error. If I knew a bit more I might be able to think things through in a BB stylee.

Quote - What, if any, off-the-shelf dynamic hair products would people recommend?

Check out Adorana's free dynamic hair http://www.hortipedia.org/adorana/2011/?p=111 which is certainly (imo) better than any of the commercial products.

Poser comes with some pretty decent strand hair for the internal figures that can be easily fitted to any character.

Check out Carodan's posts here and at RDNA on drastically reducing hair width and increasing density. This is essential! You may also have to increase your pixel sample render parameter.

All available dynamic hair shaders (that I have found to date) are rubbish! It's something I'm working on...

Heh. Just something fun. :)

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Things I would like to see in the hair room:

1 a hair brush. A tool that you can use with selected hair strands that will style from the root to end.

2 a way to do collisions while styling so the hair doesn't go into the head. This s for both the styling tools and the growth settings

3 better collision detecting when running a simulation so that if I have the bend resistance set so the hair doesn't go flat the hair still doesn't pass though the figure

4 having the ability to set frames of the simulation

5 if you add frames after the simulation the hair doesn't revert back to the original position where you added frames

6 improved shader control. hair color is very dependent on lighting currently and might look like platinum blond on one scene might look almost brunet in another.

7 the ability to change settings in growth controls without undoing the styling.

8 an integrated hair to path function

OK I think that's enough for now. I know some of what I said other's have also said, but maybe if enough of us say it, they might listen.

For scripts, Cage has a few.

A script to save hair room settings. This is a must have for me. A bake deformation script. This works on more than just the hair room but it is good if you want to incorporate draping as part of your styling tools. And a hair to path script. This script is only party functional due to poser's python limitations but perhaps an ambitious programmer might be able to build on it using poser's new add on feature (Hint Hint :biggrin:)

As far as pre -existing style of course I have to recommend my own. They are available in the free stuff here. Also as CaptainMarc has said Andorana's stuff is great to have.

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I would pay for good dynamic hair shaders.  Especially if they looked good under the Envirosphere.

I also note that if you currently use the translate tool, you can move the hair off the head entirely. While I can envision the odd circumstance where that might be desirable... not usually. There should be the ability to shut that off.

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Quote - > Quote - What, if any, off-the-shelf dynamic hair products would people recommend?

Check out Adorana's free dynamic hair http://www.hortipedia.org/adorana/2011/?p=111 which is certainly (imo) better than any of the commercial products.

Thanks CaptainMARC - I've downloaded those to have a play with now...

Quote - I would pay for good dynamic hair shaders.  Especially if they looked good under the Envirosphere.

IMO how good DH looks with the EnvSphere depends on whether it's the only source of lighting. IDL is just diffuse lighting - the hair node requires specular for it's sheen. Up to now I've had at least 1 or two aditional shadow-casting and spec-only RT lights. The hair shader just doesn't work well without real lights, something I'm hoping SM will enhance at some point. Even then there's usually some kind of shadow issue, IDL artifacts (beware hair strands intersecting the figure mesh) or other lighting quirk - backlighting is tricky.

I haven't tried not using the hair shader, but I suspect you'd lose a lot of the subtlety in the strands. I know adding extra specular to DH via the blinn node for backlighting hasn't yielded the desired effects, but maybe I was missing something.

 

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I usually use an infinite light along with the Envirosphere.  I've tried adding some specularity to my old hair shaders, but it just doesn't look the same.  Which is a pity, because I really like how SSS skin looks. 

I used the Envsphere in this render, there is a specular only light also... I had to turn the specular way down because it was way too shiny, and it didn't look right with this hairstyle... (Hairstyle is Aurora Hair by Adorana; Clothing is Principessa by Esha (RDNA); Character is Lyon from the Lyon and Paris V4 package by Danae):

I prefer the glossy look.  I know it's not super realistic, but I'm not really into photoreal stuff.

Image is with old fashioned Poser lights.

 

 

 

 

This is actually the same hair.  Just shorter.  Envirosphere and one infinite light.

randym to me that looks very real, but not quite glossy enough even for my tastes.

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randym77 I like that, it's like Repunzel hehe... I also like that with dynamic it responds to gravity. On a side note, I tend to like the glossy look but sometimes it doesn't respond well with all hairstyles so sometimes I use glossy sometimes I use a very light sheen... Also it's funny how my hair (and a few of my friends and family's hair) is not that shiny, I mean I have to really overload my hair with conditioner and use that stuff that comes with hair dye to get mine to look anywhere near what Poser dynamic hair looks like sometimes, lol. So I guess I (and a lot of others) will have to keep experimenting til I get a cross between real and desirable, hehe...

Attached Link: Previous dynamic hair thread

Here's a thread from a while back - earlier days of PP2012. My typical hair node settings area in there.

randym77 - dont think that looks bad at all bearing in mind the figure is isolated against a stark white, context less background. The dark shadows jar a little, something I struggle with.

 

DH is a quirky system at present which is why I'd like to see that dev work. Some of the best results I've had have fallen into a mid-range of quality settings, simply because the hair has taken on a slightly rougher appearance. The same scene rendered with more pixels and higher quality often looks too perfect and the shading can completely change.

One of the things I suggested SM look at is a way to roughen the appearance of dynamic hair at the propagated hair level. I found that when running draping sims properly the strands tended to take on very uniform flows. Part of the reason for this is that the system renders a thickness of hair based on a much lesser number of strands, so when you use a high propagated numbers of hairs (as I tend to do) they all have too similar a flow, even with high clumpiness settings. This can work for very straight styles but not for waves or messier styles. What I tinkered with for a couple of my experiments was to deliberately force the strands to intersect before running the sim, thus causing more chaotic collisions. I can't recommend this approach as the sims suddenly take a lot longer and can cause dramatic explosions of hair strands. But I have had a few promising successes.

So the final rendered results are quirky and a little too unpredictable for my liking, and are not at all dependant on just the shaders used.

 

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Heh. I almost always end with up with colliding hair strands without intending to, unless I use only one hair group.

But I'm with you; I've actually been thinking the past couple of days about the desirability of a "randomize" setting.

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Yes, randomisation of the hair propogation was how i put it to SM. Even better if this can be done to varying degrees, like the clumpiness slider.

 

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I'm sure this has been done before, but whoever did it didn't release it as a material preset for everyone, so I started experimenting, I already knew I could create patterns using simple nodes and even images, but I wanted to try and make the color differences look more like natural streaks instead of the kind you get done at the salon...

So I used an fbm node and put the x and z scale at 0.004 and the y scale at 6.000 and the Octaves at 2.000... then I took the usual noise node and used a blender node to blend the noise with the fbm node... then I connected that to a ColorRamp node and gave the top two dark brown and the bottom two light brown then connected those to the color imputs on the hair node (not the specular though, there is nothing plugged into that). It is very simple but it turned out extremely good in my opinion. I also put more specular than with Aurora and Jessi_Short_Blonde... (Hair is Annelle Hair by Adorana; Character is Lyon by Danae), Hope you like it:

Quote - Here's a thread from a while back - earlier days of PP2012. My typical hair node settings area in there.

Thanks.  The shader I was using was very similar to yours (except blond).  I adjusted it to match yours exactly (except the tip and root color, which I left blond), and also lightened the specular color.

It's not bad:

 

That's with the Envirosphere and one infinite light at 42%.

But I still prefer a glossier look:

That's with conventional lighting.  Main light is at 110%.

After some experimentation, I think it's simply a matter of the light intensity.  Setting the light bright enough to make the hair glossy washes out EZskin shaders.  Not sure if anything can be done about this.

can you make that one longer and have a fringe at the front (bangs)

Love esther

PS that looks great. I didn't know the hair room could do glossy like that.

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Quote -
After some experimentation, I think it's simply a matter of the light intensity.  Setting the light bright enough to make the hair glossy washes out EZskin shaders.  Not sure if anything can be done about this.

You can try to reduce the 'lightness' value in the skin nodes.

Alessandro has just released a plugin for DS (Look At My Hair) that has a lot of the functionality we've been asking for for the hair room. Some of that functionality can be seen here: http://www.furrythings.com/category/demo-videos-screenshots/

Really wanting some of that for Poser.

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A few examples of functionality:

Easier to use styling tools

Density maps

Randomization

Multi-threading support

I don't think the hair is actually dynamic, though. Perhaps that's why he was able to accomplish so much with a first release.

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Still working with the hair shader and tweaking settings. I had the point light to the left a bit too close here. This scene is in Paul's free render room prop (with some Bagginsbill shaders applied to surfaces), and two point lights only.

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

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Still working with the hair shader and tweaking settings. I had the point light to the left a bit too close here. This scene is in Paul's free render room prop (with some Bagginsbill shaders applied to surfaces), and two point lights only.

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> Quote - You can try to reduce the 'lightness' value in the skin nodes.

Yikes.  I don't have a clue how to do that.  Without EZ Skin, I'd still be using Poser 5 MATs.

I did try turning down the specular using EZskin.  Light is 100%.  That delicate glow that SSS gives you is gone, and the eyes look downright creepy.

 

Here's the render I was intending to make earlier, with the point light in the right spot.

Sorry, the eyebrow part of the texture is a work in progress, to say the least....

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Quote - > Quote - You can try to reduce the 'lightness' value in the skin nodes.

Yikes.  I don't have a clue how to do that.  Without EZ Skin, I'd still be using Poser 5 MATs.

I did try turning down the specular using EZskin.  Light is 100%.  That delicate glow that SSS gives you is gone, and the eyes look downright creepy.

 

In EZSkin, open the 'skin' tab. On top you see ' HSV Control', with inpute for 'H' 'S' and 'V', allowing you to change the tone (Hue), saturation (S) and value, or value (V) of the skin. If you have Photoshop, see what an HSV correction layer does. There the 'V' channel is named 'lightness'. It makes your skin darker so less chance of wash-out.

altenative: If you have Pro try the exponential mapping modes (in render settings window, below, on the right). This will affect your whole scene, but over-exposed areas less than areas than have correct exposure. 

About the best I can do using Shena Hair.

Any ideas for speeding up the render of dynamic hair?

I'm using PP2012 and have most of the render settings at pretty low values as I do a lot of "quick renders" to get the look right before doing any detailed ones. I often turn radiosity off for transmapped hair, but doing that for dynamic hair really kills the look. Any ideas?

Thanks

Mark@poser

Fresnel reflection on skin via EZskin really slows things down if you're using it. Multiple lights will also slow a DH render down. 

How long did that render take?

 

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I wasn't sure lately whether something in the recent SRs have affected DH rendering. In the  initial PP2012 release I was doing tests not unlike yours ranging from 15 mins to 40 mins (without FR on skin) depending on IDL quality and pixel samples etc. Feels slower now although i dont have a way of difinitively measuring that.

 

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My latest "homegrown" dynamic hair. Rendered in PP2010 in a room prop, single point light.

Nice dadt. How many guide hairs are there on that style?

 

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Very few, it's a very open mesh which means it's possible to move each guide hair into position individually.

Quote - Very few, it's a very open mesh which means it's possible to move each guide hair into position individually.

Is there an upper limit you can push the propogated density & root & tip thickness settings with this few guides? I was finding there was a point at which the rendered hair started looking very uniform.

 

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Quote - Mark@poser

Fresnel reflection on skin via EZskin really slows things down if you're using it. Multiple lights will also slow a DH render down. 

How long did that render take?

 

Long for me is about 12 to 15 minutes. I have four lights on that one. My EZskin settings are the same as with transmapped hair, but are you saying somehow the fresnel reflect interacts with the dynamic hair to slow things down? Hummmm.

 

Thanks

The density for this was only 200 per square inch with root 1.0 and tip .4. Like you I find that pushing for ever finer hair results in unrealistic renders.

Quote -  

Long for me is about 12 to 15 minutes. I have four lights on that one. My EZskin settings are the same as with transmapped hair, but are you saying somehow the fresnel reflect interacts with the dynamic hair to slow things down? Hummmm.

 

Thanks

EZskin uses a blurred fresnel reflection on skin which is going to lead to quite an intensive set of calculations with all those strands. With transmapped hair there's far less geometry with textures, but transparency to deal with instead. Losing fresnel reflection from the mix when using DH is a trade-off but does dramatically reduce render times, certainly in the tests i did a while back.

 

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Quote - The density for this was only 200 per square inch with root 1.0 and tip .4. Like you I find that pushing for ever finer hair results in unrealistic renders.

And that's just a single hair group in your last example, right? What does Poser say the total propogated hair density is for that group?

 

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Yes, a single group, total 23,872 hairs

Quote - Yes, a single group, total 23,872 hairs

Thats not a bad density. I'd been pushing up to between 70,000-100,000, but that was on the (perhaps misguided) understanding that those numbers represended a density on par with real hair.

 

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Ah bingo, that's a great way to style. I had been using hi res skull caps, and lately just implanting on V4's own head. But yeah, I can see that the lo-poly skull cap would make styling far easier. Hmmm.

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The disadvantage is that each guide hair produces a large tuft of hairs, so fine detail is difficult. However you can make a closer mesh locally to produce smaller tufts only where needed. This certainly makes styling less tedious.

Quote - > Quote - Yes, a single group, total 23,872 hairs

Thats not a bad density. I'd been pushing up to between 70,000-100,000, but that was on the (perhaps misguided) understanding that those numbers represended a density on par with real hair.

Note again though, Dan, that dadt is using 1.0 and 0.4 settings. So no surprise he can get away with -25k. If you can get away with that kind of hair thickness, why not? but I much prefer the look of much finer hair, so am paying the price in render times.

Of course, some folks do have coarser hair, so those settings are decent for that.

BTW, dadt, I still occasionally use the colorramp setup you showed me a long time ago... but it doesn't seem to have the effect it used to. Maybe I'm not using a wide enough colour variation....

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Perhaps the node you are using to drive the ramp (fractal,turbulance,granite etc) does'nt cover the full range from black to white,in which case it would not trigger all the colours.

Hm, I think my setup is basic: Alt Diffuse > Hair > ColorRamp, and then each color outputs to a Noise nose. Then a Clouds node off the input of the ColorRamp. (And Diffuse_Color is set to 0.)

I'm liking the actual output; I'm just not seeing quite the variation I would expect.

Maybe my colour use is wrong? My Alternate_Diffuse colour is white. On the Hair node, I have Root_Color as black, Tip_Color as white, and specular as gray. (My minimal understanding of nodes suggests that both root and tip should be white when used with a ColorRamp, but that's not what my screenshot of your shader shows....) The Clouds node has Sky_Color as white and Clour_Color as black. All the desired hair colours are in the ColorRamp.

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I can't remember the shader you refer to, but the root colour would normally be white as you say. Possibly I was doing a dark hair with coloured tips.

Ihave just looked at a set-up as you describe and with a cloud node the bottom value had to be set to zero and the gain to more than .9 to provide enough contrast to drive all four steps in the colour ramp.

Putting a noise node onto the ramp colours darkens them considerably unless you increase the min value considerably (this is the main reason for difficulty producing a blonde hair)

Thanks, dadt. I will do more experimenting if I get time today.

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> Quote - In EZSkin, open the 'skin' tab. On top you see ' HSV Control', with inpute for 'H' 'S' and 'V', allowing you to change the tone (Hue), saturation (S) and value, or value (V) of the skin. If you have Photoshop, see what an HSV correction layer does. There the 'V' channel is named 'lightness'. It makes your skin darker so less chance of wash-out.

Thanks.  I realized trying to follow your directions that I'm using an older version of EZskin.  I installed the newest version, and it seems promising.  Better than it was, anyway. Though the eyes are still creepy.

It looks to me like there is far too much light in the scene, hence the yellow bloom on the skin. The eyes might look better in more natural lighting.

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Quote - It looks to me like there is far too much light in the scene, hence the yellow bloom on the skin. The eyes might look better in more natural lighting.

Yeah, that's the problem.  The kind of lighting that makes the hair look the way I want is way too much for EZskin shaders. 

Might be able to find a balance with a little experimentation.

 

If the hair needs such strong light then it must be the hair shader that is at fault. It is easily possible to produce blonde hair that works in more normal light levels.

I don't think it's "at fault" so much as it's meant for the old type of  Poser lighting. Dynamic hair shaders just look so different under different lighting.  This isn't really an issue with painted hair textures.  Which means hybrid styles (part transmapped, part dynamic) or dynamic hair with a painted skullcap can look quite odd under the Envirosphere.

I can make dynamic hair brighter, but then it looks odd in dimmer light, and it loses those rippling highlights when it moves.

I guess my expectations might be a bit distorted by living in the Poserverse so long.  The old style hair and textures pretty much look the same under all kinds of lighting.  Hair does tend to look very shiny in bright sunlight, but skin does tend to wash out.  Still, it seems like it might be possible to adjust skin, hair, and lighting so they all look decent.

 

 

Dadt, let's remember that this is about what randym is after with his hair renders. He basically wants a blown-out look on the dynamic hair and nothing else. If we had item-specific lighting, this could be easily achieved.

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Something I noticed was that if I attatched  an image to the hair node once and it seemed less suseptable to light changes. I haven't had much chance to test this yet though.

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There is no 'fault' or 'good'. If we want things to be compatible, we must agree on a light level we can consider as 'standard'. In real life we have this, at day the sun shines on all of us the same way. In Poserverse we must find a standard ourselves.  

Hey dadt, nice Peggy!

Thanks raven, hi-de-hi and happy Ghristmas.

Ho-de-ho, and happy chrimbo to you too :)

The image in my last post is not totally OT, it includes another example of hair room magic.

Click to enlarge : Here a hair I use a lot. Bb's sphere with One infinite light at 75% (The picture on the BB sphere is dark, so I increased the Infinite light back to 75%)

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that hair looks very good!

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a long time ago now, i had an idea for a skull cap with preset hair growth zones on it, eg, fringe, front side L, front side R, side R, side L, top, back etc etc, essentially a predivided skull cap , the idea being you could just select the hair zone in the hair room and grow your guide hairs, anyone think there would be a demand for a prop like this, and what do you see the problems that may arise ? apart from the fact that everyone would want a different template lol

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Quote - a long time ago now, i had an idea for a skull cap with preset hair growth zones on it, eg, fringe, front side L, front side R, side R, side L, top, back etc etc, essentially a predivided skull cap , the idea being you could just select the hair zone in the hair room and grow you guide hairs, anyone thing there would be a demand for a prop like this, and what do you see the problems that may arise ?

I would LOVE something like that. 

A big problem with the skullcaps currently available is that they are way too high-res to be ideal in the hair room.  Dynamic hair collisions only work well if the objects involved are relatively low-resolution.  Poser just can't handle it otherwise. 

Many skullcaps have thousands of polys.  The Poser 6 skullcaps cut that drastically, down to about 200 polys (about the tenth the number in the Poser 5 skullcaps, IIRC).  Today's technology would probably allow a bit more than that, but still...low-res is where it's at, for dynamic hair.

Having different growth zones would be great, because then you could have higher resolution (and hence higher hair density) where it mattered.  Along the hairline, for example, where you can actually see the strands.  You could also run in a sim on only one or two hair groups (if you're animating).  That would be enough to make it look like the hair is moving like real hair, but reduces the resource load, and would also let you preserve the styling in the other groups.

A couple of tricks that Kirwyn, now not around much, used for his Genesis Hair (before DAZ co-opted the name ;-).  He modeled the skullcaps tilted back 30 degrees, so that the hair would naturally fall back a little, instead of into the figure's face. 

And he designed the skullcaps so they fit just inside the figure's head.  With the skullcap inside in the head, the hair appears to be growing naturally out of the scalp.  (Poser ignores the first part of a hair strand when doing simulation calculations.)

That means you can't texture the skullcap to cover bald spots, but you could add another, visible skullcap later.  (I use 3Dream's universal skullcaps.)

 

this was the sort of inspiration for the idea, replace the skulls part names with hair growth group names.

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That could work. But what I'd really like to see is a band of higher resolution mesh along the hairline, over the forehead and along the temples.  So you could make the hair very dense there, and avoid that wiry Barbie look. 

The back looks good.  I like the idea of having separate upper and lower groups on the back of the head.  Hair growing from the lower back of the skull isn't very important in most images (though you'd miss it if it weren't there!)  I like the idea of being able to make that coarser, with fewer vertices, and save resources for more visible hair over it. 

Have you see that "Sexy Manga Dancer" video on YouTube?  He says he used three hair groups, but only ran a simulation on one of them.  You can see that if you look closely.  When the dancer turns her back to the camera, you see a chunk of the hair in back going through her body.  It's dynamic hair, used statically.  With most renders, it wouldn't be noticeable.

ive just watched it, 65 hours to run the sim, but 1600 frames mind you, amazing the effect though, but that length of sim for most people will have them running to conforming hair and staying there lol

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I think you nailed it right at the end. Everyone would need several version for different styles.

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my thought was though, that initially one template could suit many needs, it would just be a matter of styling each growth growth to your desired style, the idea being that all hair grows pretty much the same way, it's just styling that alters most

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That would be fine if the process of styling in the Hair Room was the same as styling real hair. :)

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Interesting idea, mysticeagle!

Any 'standard' sections or groups we can agree on would work, or maybe a standard skull cap with morphs to suit the various figures. Definition of the hair groups should be more or less standard for a hair style irrespective of the figure it is applied to. The hair room uses a different process than a hairdresser, but it is a process nevertheless, and at least the hair room process has a universal basis does not need to deal with differences in natural characteristics of hair.  

It doesn't have to be perfect for every situation.  Basically, anything would be an improvement over current options. 

And you could make other versions later.  Maybe higher and lower res versions.  Middle part vs. side part.  A skullcap meant for styling hair vs. one meant for dynamics. 

Maybe even skullcaps meant to be used together.  Kirwyn did that with one version of his Genesis hair.  He had two skullcaps, one inside the other.  For a distance render,  you could use just one for faster processing.  For a close up, you'd use both.

Quote - I have used nothing but dynamic hair since it was first introduced, but I very seldom drape it. For shorter styles it is not needed and if used the hair droops and loses the styling.

This is a typical hair of mine.

 dadt ----

Is this the Elizabeth Warden character from "Keeping up Appearances" ? .... sure does look like her.

Quote - About the best I can do using Shena Hair.

Any ideas for speeding up the render of dynamic hair?

I'm using PP2012 and have most of the render settings at pretty low values as I do a lot of "quick renders" to get the look right before doing any detailed ones. I often turn radiosity off for transmapped hair, but doing that for dynamic hair really kills the look. Any ideas?

Thanks

 

Mark@poser - most of the dynamic hair images in this thread look very thin. Yours is an exception, it looks fantastic.

I use the same basic groups for most of my hairstyles. Top left and right, Middle left and right, Bottom left and right,top back bottom back, and bangs. It works for most handing down styles. Styles pulled in other way, such as a ponytail might need other groups.  I had toyed with the idea of having a starter base hair with short hair already grown on it that I could lengthen and style but I've never used the one I made.

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Mathman---Right first time!

RedPhantom, I've tried various options (tho with less success than you so far as styling goes), and I have become less than enamoured with having a whole bunch of groups. They're just too hard to manage cooperatively, for me. I'm leaning more and more toward having 2-3 groups per hairstyle, on a low-poly skullcap.

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Believable, I use more because my mind gets overwelmed and confused by larger groups. I am intrigued by the low poly cap. I've been using ones at about 1000 polys. I reduced one to around 200 and have not seen much differrence except the sim time dropped from 2:46 to 0:46 (this is minutes not seconds) on a single, simple group. It might be easier for me to handle larger groups if I have less strands to look at.

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The dynamic hair tutorials that used to be at Studio Verite used a skullcap with only 8 polys.  That might be taking it a little too far, but it didn't look bad.

60-100 polys sounds right to me. Leave them unpopulated for styling, and it's easy to work with.

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Quote - Mathman---Right first time!

 

That is brilliant. Don't suppose you have the morph, do you ? :):)

Sorry, like all my characters I use a lot of custom made morphs (Morph-brush,magnets,modelling program) plus custom textures including bump and displacement.

 

While browsing through this thread again I noticed that on many of the hairs shown the lower edge of the hairstyle faded away, spoiling the realism in my opinion. This set me wondering how much effect the tip width setting had.

Some tests with a few hairs on a sphere showed that the hair was evenly tapered from root to tip which is ok if you are using the hair room to grow a grass prop but hair does not taper, and even the tips are cut off square by the hairdressers scissors.

 In the past I had just accepted that the tip width would be less than the root width, probably because that is the default when you create a new hair, but a few test renders have convinced me that the root and tip should be the same.

 

These renders all have root width of .8 with tip widths of .2, .5 and .8 from left to right, and show the effect I am talking about.

I now have a lot of work ahead going through all my character and hair libraries resetting the values, doing test renders and new thumbnails

dadt, thanks anyway.

Maybe you should do an animation of Elizabeth spilling tea on Hyacinth's Grade 1 Axminster carpet .... :)

...or maybe breaking one of Hyacinth's Royal Doultons with the hand-painted periwinkles !!

LOL--- I have enough problems getting good renders without venturing into the extra problems of animation.

Perhaps when I get a faster rig, going to knock together a 8 processor set-up in the new year to replace my twin set-up.

Quote - While browsing through this thread again I noticed that on many of the hairs shown the lower edge of the hairstyle faded away, spoiling the realism in my opinion. This set me wondering how much effect the tip width setting had.

Some tests with a few hairs on a sphere showed that the hair was evenly tapered from root to tip which is ok if you are using the hair room to grow a grass prop but hair does not taper, and even the tips are cut off square by the hairdressers scissors.

 In the past I had just accepted that the tip width would be less than the root width, probably because that is the default when you create a new hair, but a few test renders have convinced me that the root and tip should be the same.

 

That's a very interesting point. I'll have to try that.

Quote -  In the past I had just accepted that the tip width would be less than the root width, probably because that is the default when you create a new hair, but a few test renders have convinced me that the root and tip should be the same.

Good observation, dadt. I've been wondering along those lines myself. I'm not sure there should be no taper whatsoever, but I've slowly been bringing the root and tip widths into closer relation to one another too.

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If you look at hair under a microscope (we all have one of those right ) you'll see each strand is tapered. How much in relation to the root, I can't say. The problem isn't the tapering one the strands. It is becaues the hair does not all end at the same spot. When you create hair each strand it the exact same length as the rest (unless you set the length variance) so when you bend the strands down the strands on the top of the head don't reach as far as the ones down near the bottom edge. So there is in all reality less hair strand at the bottom on the hair than at the top so it should look thinner. You can use the styling tool to lengthen the strands higher up i you are wanting a more consistant thickness. In the image you can see the difference in the think ness of the 2 styles. Both have the same hair density and the same strand thickness at root and tip. In the second row of images I've selected all the strands in one group so you can see the ends. As you can see some ends only come half way down to where the others do.

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We need a scissors tool. :)

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

The root-tip ratio depends on the haircut. If my hair is 20 cm with tip/root ratio 0.4, and I cut it to 10 cm, the root/tip ratio will be 0.7, assuming smooth taper. The follicle just pushes out hair at a constant rate and diameter. I think there is natural wear/aging that  makes older hair, i.e hair further away from the follicle, thinner than newer hair.

As for length variation: this of couse entirly is down to haircut. If the hair is uncut, (Tyler as Simson) the natural process of breaking will take care of a sort of logaritmic? (not sure here without having done the math) distribution of hair length. 

Are there any long dynamic hair sets available for v4?  purchase or not? I cannot find any (other than the california one)

TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units

167 Car Materials for Poser

I always thought the reason hair strands were tapered in the hair room is because it's impossible to get realistic hair density without choking Poser.  So to get decent scalp coverage, you make the strand wide at the top.

But that makes the hair look like a bad wig.  Making it thinner at the ends makes it looks less fake. 

templargfx, I'm hoping to have one available with in the next few days as a freebie. I need to get it packaged up and approved. You can check my first post on page one of this thread for a preview.

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Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10

WOW, I would pay for that.  your long hair is the only one I have seen for V4 that actually looks good!

TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units

167 Car Materials for Poser

I haven't checked but I have a feeling it might need extra memory. The long hair I did for Miki was double what shorter hair needed. It also takes a while to drape.

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Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10

One thing I have started doing is altering density after doing my draping. In other words, drape with a relatively little amount of hair and then up the density for the render.

It's not foolproof--you can end up with hair going astray a little (or a lot, YMMV), but it's well worth trying as an aid to your system. (Unlike changing hair length etc, altering density and hair thickness does not lose your styling and draping.)

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

I do that too Believable3D.

 

Oh, and please dont use the kink dials.  they are shocking additions to the hair room.  while they work ok for making TINY kinks in hair at a low scale, kink is not applied to the hair during dynamic calculations, meaning the end result will almost always have hair inside the object it draped onto thanks to kink been applied afterwards.

Use the twist styling tool thingy instead. then they are twisted during calculations too. Position Force will keep them swirly if set right

TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units

167 Car Materials for Poser

Quote - One thing I have started doing is altering density after doing my draping. In other words, drape with a relatively little amount of hair and then up the density for the render.

It's not foolproof--you can end up with hair going astray a little (or a lot, YMMV), but it's well worth trying as an aid to your system. (Unlike changing hair length etc, altering density and hair thickness does not lose your styling and draping.)

I do that, too.  All of the Styling Controls except Verts per hair can be adjusted after running a simulation.  If you don't like the effect, you can just change it back.  There's no need to run the sim again.

I hope no one minds if I bump this.

Wow, this is a blast from the past.

Did anyone ever make dynamic hair skullcaps?

I never did figure out how to get dynamic hair shaders to play nicely with EZSkin. Dynamic hair is easier if you can use textured skullcaps underneath, to hide the bald spots, but dynamic hair looks so different with Poser's advanced lighting. Skullcap textures that matched dynamic hair shaders in older versions of Poser don't look remotely the same color.

I know 3 Dream has made a number of skull caps over the years for several figures including V4 and the SM figures. Don't know what he has in his store right now.

This was a little something I did when having a play not long ago. Not really a showcase moment, but it served its purpose :)

I made these skullcaps for Dawn and Vicky. You can use them however you want, even if you want to sell or give away the hair you've made.

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/skullcap-for-genesis-2-and-vicky-6/74500

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/skull-caps-for-dawn/72208

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Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10

October, 2017 ... any other dynamic hair work out there? Carodan, paging Carodan ...

Here's my contribution ... click the link for an animation --> V4 with golden hair ...

Here's an unfinished model I was working on a couple months ago, before I meandered off onto something else..... Frame-grab from head turn animation.

Only the pigtails are dynamic(calc time about 3seconds/frame each piece).

Y'all have a great day.

Jafo, are the 'tails separate mesh? Parented to head?

operaguy posted at 4:42PM Fri, 13 October 2017 - #4315985

Jafo, are the 'tails separate mesh? Parented to head?

Yes, there's a medium rez disc at the end of the rubber bands, the model is a conforming figure. The other parts of the 'head hair' model began as dynamic but I converted it to geometry with a hair-to-mesh utility I downloaded a few years ago, its pretty high-rez but my 6yr old system doesn't have a problem with it.

Y'all have a great day.

(too late to edit post) I still have the model before conversion, this pic shows how it was constructed.

Y'all have a great day.

Did you model that? Available?

operaguy posted at 5:47PM Fri, 13 October 2017 - #4315993

Did you model that? Available?

Yes I modeled it a few months ago(except the rubber bands, they're a stand in I 'borrowed' from another model) its a WIP ,if you're interested I can finish it up with some improvements( dynamic bangs and flys maybe) and make it available.

Y'all have a great day.

JAFO, I'd just like the pony tail model. Is that possible?

operaguy posted at 7:52PM Fri, 13 October 2017 - #4315999

JAFO, I'd just like the pony tail model. Is that possible?

I'll see about uploading it to sharecg. Link shortly

Y'all have a great day.

They really should allow more time for edits... https://www.sharecg.com/get_file.php?upload_file_id=60095

Y'all have a great day.

Got it! Thanks JAFO, very generous.

I worked with it a little tonight, will continue to explore use, shaders, animation.

Gratitude ...

::::: Opera :::::

Never got things quite the way I wanted, but here are a couple of semi-failed efforts from a few months ago.

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Here's a men's style I worked on a couple years ago.

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

This is also from a couple years ago.

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

And here's one from last year, going for a bit of medieval look with grey hair and beard. The last one has postwork.

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Here's a scene from that last one, which I uploaded to the Rendo gallery.

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

This was part of character development for my novel, The Legend of the Dagger Prince.

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3