Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

Well, if I like the feet then it would have to be good, wouldn't it? LMAO

I think a Poser only figure would definitely sell if certain requirements are met:

It has excellent support and content right out of the box. Figures (mostly Daz figures) tend to do much better if they have a lot of stuff FOR the figure upon release.

It has extensive well-made morphs either in the base or as an add-on. Most people don't/don't want to bother with making morphs.

Great bending. I think most of us are quite sick of the macaroni elbows ;). Full weight mapping (as well as the clothing) I think would be a big bonus.

Scaling support. I think it's a given that everyone likes the scaling idea.

I think if those conditions are met, the figure might have a chance. The only drawback I can possibly think of is that one person would have a really hard time filling that tall of an order (but not impossible I guess).

Laurie: The Foot Lady

Look at this picture and see that all figures "are" the same when scaled to the same shoulder-arm height : That is why the fitting room does such a good job with correctly welded clothing.

Only big differences are in "Z".

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

What do you see when you look at a figure for the very first time??
Form?
Shape?
No.
What you see is a texture.

A good texture is 80% of the first impression.

All the rest comes later when you start to bend, morph or pose.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Clearly labeled personal opinion... not as a representative of Renderosity

**
**Imho, one person cannot do what LaurieA outlines (which I agree is the pre-req to a figure having a FIGHTING chance!)

This would require that an entity with the financial resources to PAY a team to develop this creature, AND produce all the initial supporting materials for release at day one. I have no idea how many people Daz employs/contracts with for their figure development, but I'm betting the team is fair-sized. (Someone who knows feel free to correct me.)

I can only think of one company with the resources, (and the financial motivation to get involved in this process) and so far they have not allocated the money in this direction. The first initial of the firm is "S". 

I personally like Rex and Roxie. I'd use them more if there were more textures available. Clothing is not an issue for me, using PP14 (Don't you love the fitting room? And the shrink to fit Morph Brush?) I can even brew up faces and bodies using the morphs. What I don't know how to make is new textures.

Perhaps SM will see fit to develop or contract with someone to do what's needed to make a flood of content to jump start them. 

Perhaps not.

EDIT:

I agree with Tony 100% as well! Multiple textures are key to me using a new figure.

It could work but there are so many factors to deal with.  Beautifully sculptured is fine but to who's definition of beautiful.  Vender support is important but at least there would be some clothing from day one with the fitting room but then that does limit the market to Poser 2014 users. 

For me however, the 'does everything that Genesis does even a little more' is the biggest unknown.  I fully accept that Genesis was, or is, technically excellent and lots of people see great potential.  Despite this I have yet to see what it gives me that V4WM does not but then perhaps my needs are not as critical as others.  This is nothing to do with Daz it is just a value for money question and therefore the same question would arise with any other figure no matter what the source.  I for one would like better skin textures but that has little to do with the figure.

The starting point I guess would have to be the list of the problems users have with V4 so that you can show how this has been corrected in the new figure while making sure it is not broken in another area.  The final question of course would be what is everyone prepared to pay for this new super figure.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - Vender support is important but at least there would be some clothing from day one with the fitting room but then that does limit the market to Poser 2014 users. 

This is the main Factor. It only would work for the latest version of Poser which is a very small percentage of the entire market among both Daz and Poser users who are still using previous versions. Might be great, but from a possible financial point of few, is not really a wise investment, there for leading to fewer vendors who will find the prospect attractive. Unless it is made available to a wider audience it is going to struggle to gain traction. Then again, SM can always give Poser2014 away for free:) That would be a start, but I don't see that happening.

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I doubt there will ever be a perfect Poser figure. Everyone has differnt ideas of perfect, so it will never happen.

All the best.

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I agree 110% aboit the texture thing. And not just a lot of "pale chicks with freckles" textures. Various ethnic textures, too. And for the males, options with and without beards.

Clothes are nice, but there are several options of fitting clothes to new figures, so it's not the major point. Textures, OTOH is something not everyone can just whip up.

But another major point for me would actually be whether or not there's an opposite sex-counterpart. In other words: If you make a woman, make a man, too. And don't let the poor guy end up as some left hand last minute job ;) he should have the same possibilities and options as the much coveted nude woman ;)

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Content. Mostly character sets (not everyone sees beauty the same) plenty of textures and quality, authentic, ethinic morphs (lots of people asking for them) and dial-a-morph and at least some clothes/ slut wear and their own personal temple and sword. And if it can do what genesis can do, it will need all this for both genders.

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Quote - Clearly labeled personal opinion... not as a representative of Renderosity

This would require that an entity with the financial resources to PAY a team to develop this creature, AND produce all the initial supporting materials for release at day one. I have no idea how many people Daz employs/contracts with for their figure development, but I'm betting the team is fair-sized. (Someone who knows feel free to correct me.)

What it would take to make Rex base mesh.

Model Rex ruff pre subd mesh with a few tri's 4 hours. C4D
Subd make REX 100% quads. 1 click, 1 minute. C4D
Tweek the subd mesh.4 hours C4D
Map Rex 30 minutes. zBrush
Rig Rex 4 hours. C4D
I've never rigged in Poser but I'm sure it would be about the same as C4D

oh a texture 30 minutes.zBrush

13 hours.just one days work, that's why they give so much $$$ for the software.
A custome made mesh is not cheep eather.

Forgot the morphs
30 minutes for each of the full body n face morphs zBrush

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Quote - Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

~.o

it would have to have great hands and feet. It would have to bend well...and geographting wouldnt be a bad thing.

it would have to have actual realistic full body(as in GENITALS) details.

and able to be morphed out easily.

Breasts that actually act like breasts.  with realistic movement. those should be basic on a figure.

I am not too fussed about beauty. that can be morphed in.

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Quote - Look at this picture and see that all figures "are" the same when scaled to the same shoulder-arm height : That is why the fitting room does such a good job with correctly welded clothing.

Only big differences are in "Z".

DC & Marvel Comics use human ratio .
head 5 eyes wide 7 eyes tall
body 8 heads tall

it's the formula that everyone follows ,more or less

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Marvel and DC often break those proportions for the hero figures.  I've seen a 10 heads Superman, for one.  In fact, the most commonly used way to make a figure seem heroic is to use 9 or 10 heads for the height.  IIRC, there's a sculpture of Alexander at 9 heads.

Also, I'd just love Blackhearted to comment on your timescale for developing a figure.  Even allowing for the fact he starts with an existing model, your estimates are - well, the polite way to put it would be - rather optimistic.  More than that would most likely be a TOS violation.  :D  

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Quote - DC & Marvel Comics use human ratio .
head 5 eyes wide 7 eyes tall
body 8 heads tall

it's the formula that everyone follows ,more or less

That's part of the problem from a realism standpoint; the average adult is only 7 1/2 heads tall, and children are even less.

 

Quote - This would require that an entity with the financial resources to PAY a team to develop this creature, AND produce all the initial supporting materials for release at day one. I have no idea how many people Daz employs/contracts with for their figure development, but I'm betting the team is fair-sized. (Someone who knows feel free to correct me.) I can only think of one company with the resources, (and the financial motivation to get involved in this process) and so far they have not allocated the money in this direction. The first initial of the firm is "S".

This is an excellent point.  The Antonia team produced a very good figure, but there wasn't much for her to wear, although she looked pretty good nude.   She may be a bit on the light side polygon-wise, tho'.

Miki 2 and the Poser 7 G2 figures were accompanied by a wide range of clothing and the RDNA Morphs, but there were shortcomings in rigging and symmetry that caused the figures themselves to have issues.  In light of this I wouldn't expect SM to be the ones rolling something similar out any time soon...

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The responses appear to be missing the point that EClark was getting at. He wasn't asking about specifically how to make a perfect character or any such thing. He was asking, assuming all those conditions are met (which it can be safely implied is impossible), would the figure be a success if it were only Poser compatible. He was basically making a jab at DAZ for releasing the Genesis figure (initially, at least) as a DS-only compatible figure, and asking if the same scenario is even conceivable in reverse.

Would any other developer possess the hubris to do such a thing, and could anyone but DAZ get away with such shenanigans?

In the spirit of playing along with the original question, yes I do think it could be successful. Many (probably most) of the products for sale here in the Marketplace don't even mention whether they're DAZ Studio-compatible, and I'd assume most DS users just assume some possiblity of compatibility issues when they buy products or download freebies. Most serious hobbyist 3Ders will have Poser, and they'll buy it, and the vendors will then support it. Studio users will get what they paid for.

Quote - Marvel and DC often break those proportions for the hero figures.  I've seen a 10 heads Superman, for one.  In fact, the most commonly used way to make a figure seem heroic is to use 9 or 10 heads for the height.  IIRC, there's a sculpture of Alexander at 9 heads.

I did say more or less ;)

Quote - More than that would most likely be a TOS violation.  :D

LMAO :)

Quote - Also,I'd just love Blackhearted to comment on your timescale for developing a figure.  Even allowing for the fact he starts with an existing model, your estimates are - well, the polite way to put it would be - rather optimistic.  More than that would most likely be a TOS violation.  :D

 

Fell free to ask the Pro's your self about my time table.
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/forum.php
Let us know what they say.

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Quote - Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

Why should vendors tamper with it if it is already perfect? At least the vendors producing those "Real Breasts", "Perfect Shoulder" and "Bend Morphs" packages would be put right out of business by that figure, so they had to sell their children and eat their dogs. Perhaps they could make additional clothes for it, because the figure might be perfect but making clothes for it is a nightmare. Then it depends on how keen vendors are on getting into a nightmare, i guess.

Quote - > Quote - Clearly labeled personal opinion... not as a representative of Renderosity

This would require that an entity with the financial resources to PAY a team to develop this creature, AND produce all the initial supporting materials for release at day one. I have no idea how many people Daz employs/contracts with for their figure development, but I'm betting the team is fair-sized. (Someone who knows feel free to correct me.)

What it would take to make Rex base mesh.

Model Rex ruff pre subd mesh with a few tri's 4 hours. C4D
Subd make REX 100% quads. 1 click, 1 minute. C4D
Tweek the subd mesh.4 hours C4D
Map Rex 30 minutes. zBrush
Rig Rex 4 hours. C4D
I've never rigged in Poser but I'm sure it would be about the same as C4D

oh a texture 30 minutes.zBrush

13 hours.just one days work, that's why they give so much $$$ for the software.
A custome made mesh is not cheep eather.

Forgot the morphs
30 minutes for each of the full body n face morphs zBrush

 

Ha! I say again, HA!  :-)

Hey, all brushes in "Z" and company :-)

This is the Poser forum.
LOL.

There can never be a "perfect" figure for all of us.

Some are animators, some do "real world scenes", some do close ups.

One needs hi poly, the guy next door prefers lower poly.

One needs clothes, the other does not.

What we all need are perfect textures, and tons and tons, and more tons, of better hair.
(Yes LauriA, shoe's too)

And even then, the native units of Poser and DS are different. In Poser a figure will be higher then in DS.

But? We are talking Poser here. And  Poser now has SubD, so polycount is less important.
Clothing is also less of a problem now with the new morph brush and fitting room.

Good textures and a good displacement maps are still as important as before.

So, go out on the streets, and take a deep hard look at some "real good looking women".

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Ha! I say again, HA!  :-)

Yes Teyon, agreed,

How do we call that one ?
LOL.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

What Teyon said. Blackhearted said it took months to make a decent figure. That's working with a base figure. As stated, everyone's idea of what is a good figure is different. Price is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Again, for only the latest version of Poser, a small market within a small market. I'd buy it.

I know for a fact it takes BH months just to do morphs and jcms...forget about modeling and rigging the figure. LOL.

Laurie

The time to make a good texture set (diffuse, bump, specular, displacement, etc) -- photoreal and seamless -- is way underestimated as well.

Quote - > Quote - Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

Why should vendors tamper with it if it is already perfect? At least the vendors producing those "Real Breasts", "Perfect Shoulder" and "Bend Morphs" packages would be put right out of business by that figure, so they had to sell their children and eat their dogs. Perhaps they could make additional clothes for it, because the figure might be perfect but making clothes for it is a nightmare. Then it depends on how keen vendors are on getting into a nightmare, i guess.

True. Another point is if it is perfect and already contains all those packagesfixes out of the box, imagine how resource intensive that figure will be. Also if a vendor wants to put their own spin on things, they will have to cross reference a much larger data base to see how they can incorporate their product with the existing content on that figure, which will make it a nightmare to develope for. Reason for these addon morphsfixes etc. is that not everybody has the same tastes and preffer variety, and variety comes from different artistic viewpoints. Eg the developers might think that the figure looks great and work well and is "perfect", a vendor might look at it and say it looks like crap and want to do it the way they think it should look. This is why all these packages exist. The whole point of addon, fixes & morphs packs is that it gives people a choice of whether they want them or not. Keeping the base figure as light as possible is also key. Complicate it out of the box, and you scare off potential content developers.

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Quote - Clearly labeled personal opinion... not as a representative of Renderosity

**
**Imho, one person cannot do what LaurieA outlines (which I agree is the pre-req to a figure having a FIGHTING chance!)

This would require that an entity with the financial resources to PAY a team to develop this creature, AND produce all the initial supporting materials for release at day one. I have no idea how many people Daz employs/contracts with for their figure development, but I'm betting the team is fair-sized. (Someone who knows feel free to correct me.)

I can only think of one company with the resources, (and the financial motivation to get involved in this process) and so far they have not allocated the money in this direction. The first initial of the firm is "S". 

I personally like Rex and Roxie. I'd use them more if there were more textures available. Clothing is not an issue for me, using PP14 (Don't you love the fitting room? And the shrink to fit Morph Brush?) I can even brew up faces and bodies using the morphs. What I don't know how to make is new textures.

Perhaps SM will see fit to develop or contract with someone to do what's needed to make a flood of content to jump start them. 

Perhaps not.

EDIT:

I agree with Tony 100% as well! Multiple textures are key to me using a new figure.

 

Kickstarter could be a way to handle this.

 

And I also agree about textures - that has been my greatest hold up.  Give me half a dozen textures from ethnic figures are the only ones I buy anymore - I got enough white girls.

I can spin a dial as well as anyone else, I got HCS for hair, fitting room for clothes, and I am off to the races....

Quote - Ha! I say again, HA!  :-)

 

Teyon : How can you HA .When you have Modo AKA the fasted modeler on the planet & zBrush.

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Quote - I know for a fact it takes BH months just to do morphs and jcms...forget about modeling and rigging the figure. LOL.

Laurie

I'm gueesing BH is making his 99.9% realist perfect morphs on his own time and don't have a pain in the back side of a boss yelling at him "are you done yet"

I never said anything about realistic perfect.
I'm talking about the meshes ya see in the zBrush gallery.
Rex don't look all that realistic.

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Quote - The time to make a good texture set (diffuse, bump, specular, displacement, etc) -- photoreal and seamless -- is way underestimated as well.

Yes I know the commitment it takes to do a good map for Photoshop
and texture,diffuse, bump, specular, displacement in photoshop.

lets just say I'm not big on commitments.
I'm all for cheating any and every way I can.
zBrush don't even need a map.but it does have a mapper.
zBrush has tools for very fast texturing,diffuse, bump, specular, displacement,vector maps etc etc .

 

Well I get the same results as someone that spent 40 hours in Photoshop ?
Probably not ,but there still cool textures,diffuse, bump, specular, displacement,vector maps etc etc ;)

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Quote - > Quote - I know for a fact it takes BH months just to do morphs and jcms...forget about modeling and rigging the figure. LOL.

Laurie

I'm gueesing BH is making his 99.9% realist perfect morphs on his own time and don't have a pain in the back side of a boss yelling at him "are you done yet"

I never said anything about realistic perfect.
I'm talking about the meshes ya see in the zBrush gallery.
Rex don't look all that realistic.

Nah, he's his own boss...and a perfectionist to boot (good thing). LOL.

Laurie

Do I think if the perfect figure existed would it get support? Sure. Why wouldn't it? I mean, it'd be perfect right?  Thus meeting the requirements of every user, so it'd be widely adopted. A vendor would be crazy not to support something like that.

 Do I think such a character could ever exist? Nope.  There's one absolute when it comes to dealing with the public at large - you can't please everyone.  That's even more true for Poser characters.  The biggest reason Poser and Daz characters are so difficult to get right is that there isn't a focused audience/user base. You're not all animators. You're not all render artists. You're not all texture artists. You're not all character artists. There's such a wide range of end users to please that it is more likely that we will NOT please everyone than it is that we'll please anyone.  That is the curse of developing with an X factor as your user base. So no, I don't think a perfect figure will ever exist because perfect figures exist already.  If that makes sense to you.  There are figures that are perfect for very specific uses but are they perfect for all uses? Nope and likely never will be.

 That said, I know there's room for the content that we make to grow beyond what we're doing.  Some are rigging based, a very technical area and a bit outside my comfort zone. Some are asset design based, which is more my cup of tea. I see areas of improvement being made but slowly. Part of that is because of adoption rates by the masses and part of that is just artistic growth. Models I made four years ago can't hold up to models I make today and the models I make today will be poor shades of the models I make tomorrow.  So I think perfection is a fallacy we shouldn't try to strive for. We should instead focus on believability and detail based on form following function.  That's what I'm trying to bring to the table with every model I make and every release of Poser I help create. 

 To that end, Iam constantly learning, adapting and improving. It would be awesome to see more vendors doing that also. I've noticed a few who have but there are many who are content staying at a certain level. That's too bad because there's so much potential to be had.  I'd like to see textures with tailor made bump/displacement maps for detailing. None of that let's just use the diffuse thing that has run rampant for years. I''m a firm believer that a good bump/normal map and displacement map can work wonders for achieving a realistic look. Doubly so if the person makes them on a figure with decent anatomy to begin with or is capable of making a believable morph.  Add in clothing that has modeled in detail where it makes sense to do so and hair that doesn't look like it's out of a romance novel (or a really bad catalouge...I nearly cried when I saw the hair models we include in Poser) and you're that much closer to a believable image.  An increase in the types of locales being modeled and sold would help also.

 Getting back to figures though, I think offering a high and low res model is smart. I think the low res for film is about 50K. Roxie and Rex are half that, which isn't too bad - I feel like some give them a bum rap.  Roxie and Rex are a middle ground between people who like animating/or digital sculpting and people who like old school morphing - at least in my opinion. I say this because they don't have every single muscle specifically defined, making some sculpting choices easier than if they did but they have some areas cut out for those that need the guides. Could the topo be better? Sure, there's no such thing as a perfect topology but I think finding balance between the two is a good way to go topology-wise. Then just offer a high and low version of that. 

 To me a model that covers those things mentioned would be ideal. Still not perfect - aesthetics are so personal - but worthwhile.  Man do I talk alot.

Short Answer: No. Based on not specifying that circumstances of its introduction would be any different than all the others.

Does SHE (spare me the boys getting sent home with their ‘nads in a Bull Durham sack) even need to be perfect? If someone came out with the equivalent of V4 with the level of support she had on her introduction, would she succeed? Even with the support, promotion etc. there is still the DAZ cachet which is probably not so devalued even now as some would think. That’s an intangible. That is baseline she would need to have a realistic chance.

She would have to be compatible in some way with older versions of Poser and work well with all the other applications people use to render, create morphs etc. IMO, you need to appeal to the broadest audience, not just the latest and greatest power users. Imagine a figure that for some reason, only worked with dynamic clothing – you’d lose many people right there. Doesn’t play well with Vue, subtract numbers, won’t work in Carrara – subtract a few more, requires more to use than the standard skill set many people probably still rely on – another minus, requires P9+ – how many people does that leave out … it all adds up.

It might require two versions, ala Antonia and AntoniaWM. That in itself is a potential problem in terms of confusing the less savvy users but I think it remains an issue. The biggest hurdle though is I think psychological, getting the masses of people to see it as something they want. That is, in part why I think that SM would need to spin off a separate brand and work to establish its reputation as being equivalent to DAZ. Releasing a new figure under the Poser/SM label might not be the kiss of death, but I’m not sure how much it helps (among the masses). The desktop takeover by Linux never happened, but I bet desktop “Android” would do well, in part simply because it’s a brand that many people don’t even associate with the L word.

Wiz is right. We all know the roll of independent figures and how well the seem to do – not so much, no matter how well done they are, even if they are free. IMO, the best chance for independent figures is the specialty market, i.e. 3DZ’s toon figures. I hadn’t thought about it but Vilters has an excellent point. Great textures are a big selling point. It may also be an area where attention needs to be paid to ensuring they look good in down level versions and other applications as well.

It is true that beauty is subjective, I think but there is a general notion of it and I wouldn’t go with plain out of the box. Everyone also has their pet desires, X room compatibility, feet etc., but you can’t just tick off boxes. Levi has been selling a boatload of jeans since 18 whatever, not because they’re fancy, but because they’re a solid product that has built up a reputation, something that doesn’t happen overnight. Whoever wants to play needs to be willing to hang in there.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

I swear I can hear the DAZ Priest ,screaming blasphemer .LOL
Ever now and then someone gets hold of some bad moonshine
or see's a superman movie or what ever makes them think they can war against Victoria.
They soon discover that Victoria is the Queen.
Pitiful broken fools with there delusions of grandeur.
May the CGI gods have pitty on there broken CGI kingdomes layed to waist.

If you look to The Tower
you might get a glimps of,apollo maximus,antonia,michelle
and the rest of the lost ones that names have been forgotten.

 

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

My hold back on Rex & Roxie are 2 fold:

No ethnic textures, no morph packs at launch - pretty much makes them a non-starter, until they are made.  I got Z-Brush today - I won't be cranking out morph packs over the weekend.

And what the hell is up with Rex's inner thighs touching?  It is giving me fits in the fitting room.

And while I am at it, why can't I select body groups named "genital" not to show up in fitting room calculations.

Someone needs to be slapped with a brick in the man zone for those two.....

 

 

Oooh, what a co-inky-dink See the "Of possible interest to Poser users" We can stop speculating and see what happens :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Reading all this again the conclusion must be:
Textures - textures - textures.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

If you look at v4 it is clear that 'beautiful sculpting out of the box' is not required for success.  

The figure needs to have potential for beautiful sculpting and that potential needs to be demonstrated with co-released product on launch.  For instnace Anastasia is beautifully sculpted, but allyson 2 is still not in any way a contender vs v4.   She ticks a lot of the boxes you'd like to see ticked for a figure too.  Lots of morphs, free with poser(large potential market for content creation), dense enough geometry for fine sculpted detail etc. (yes along with a bunch of shortcomings cough rigging cough).  I have to wonder where she might be if she landed either looking like anastasia or having anastasia land at the same time.

 

Demonstrating the potential is huge.  Launching along side 'must have' content is huge.

Is anything likely to tick all the boxes needed for true success compared to daz figures without significant capital support & a dedicated team?  probably not.

On a more philosophical level, why do we need just 1 character?

I have a menagerie and I know it certainly works better for me than 1 figure to rule them all.

Quote - Reading all this again the conclusion must be:
Textures - textures - textures.

 

Yes.  It is the only reason I buy characters now.

Quote - My hold back on Rex & Roxie are 2 fold:

No ethnic textures, no morph packs at launch - pretty much makes them a non-starter, until they are made.  I got Z-Brush today - I won't be cranking out morph packs over the weekend.

And what the hell is up with Rex's inner thighs touching?  It is giving me fits in the fitting room.

And while I am at it, why can't I select body groups named "genital" not to show up in fitting room calculations.

Someone needs to be slapped with a brick in the man zone for those two.....

 

 

That was rigging choice - the thighs touching. I have no real clue why. You can zero him out and see they don't.

Quote - My hold back on Rex & Roxie are 2 fold:

No ethnic textures, no morph packs at launch - pretty much makes them a non-starter, until they are made.  I got Z-Brush today - I won't be cranking out morph packs over the weekend.

And what the hell is up with Rex's inner thighs touching?  It is giving me fits in the fitting room.

And while I am at it, why can't I select body groups named "genital" not to show up in fitting room calculations.

Someone needs to be slapped with a brick in the man zone for those two.....

 

Congrats on zBrush.

http://pixologic.com/zclassroom/homeroom/

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/forum.php

just a friendly tip.
pro fourms are not hobbyist fourms.

---

What tablet did you get ?

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I know I'm personally planning to support the characters separate from my day gig. I want to do some detailed textures. Like these which were just a proof concept.

Quote - I know I'm personally planning to support the characters separate from my day gig. I want to do some detailed textures. Like these which were just a proof concept.

killer

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - I know I'm personally planning to support the characters separate from my day gig. I want to do some detailed textures. Like these which were just a proof concept.

Yes!!!!! Thank you.

I already have what I think is the "perfect" Poser figure, so it will be hard to impress me.

But first we have to agree what a Poser figure actually should be:

Do we want a stylized video-game avatar, or do we want a realistic virtual representation of an actual human being ?

The first is very easy, the latter very hard.

A figure that can be the first will most likely not be able to be the latter.

But a figure that can be the latter can also be the first very easily.

What's the secret to realism ? Textures ? Nope, they can help, but they are fairly unimportant.

It's the details. The right shapes, the right volumes, the right proportions.

And you can't have that without an elaborate mesh topology that uses edgeloops to exactly define the muscles and bones of a human being.

DAZ knows that, that's why their figures can be so realistic. They can, but they don't have to.

Because an edgelooped topology can be just as smooth as a simple "fishnet" topology. But a simple fishnet topology can never be as detailed as a properly edgelooped topology.

Again, we have to first decide what we actually want for Poser:

A video game avatar that tries to make up for it's stylized shape and simple mesh topology with subdividing and elaborate textures, inclusing displacement maps, or do we want elaborate sculpts that try to catch the exact shape and look of a human being the same way artists are creating statues and busts: By carefully replicating the shapes they see before their eyes ?

Remember, a super realistic high polygon mesh can easily be as "un-realistic" and smooth and stylized as you want.

If you want it.

A stylized low-res mesh will never be able to be super realistic given the limitations of the current Poser technology.

Sharp creases, undercuts, maybe Poser will be able to do that in the future. But not now. Right now, we can only make a smooth mesh smoother.

What "The CGI Industry" does or does not is completely irrevelant for Poser.

What the vast majority of Poser/Studio users want is what's important.

And they either stayed with the high res V4/M4 mesh or weren't happy enough with the low res Genesis mesh so that DAZ now rowed back and again added more polygons to it.

 

 

With the right topology, you can do anything....

If you noticed, almost all my figures use the same textures. Because I do't need a huge variety of textures to make each sculpt an individual.

And here is "The Gang", as sculpted by WERTS.

All use the exact same texture, but still WERTS was able to catch their likenesses so accurately just by giving them the right shapes.

Could individual textures enhance the likenesses ? Sure, they could. But not much, and they especially couldn't replace WERTS elaborate sculpting or DAZ clever edgelooping.

And to answer the OP question:

Yes, I think a "perfect" Poser mesh would have a chance to de-throne V4.

But it has to be the "right kind of perfect".

It has to be more realistic than V4 or Genesis, not just another attempt at the same stale formula we've seen for years.

I don't think the Poser only aspect is an issue but if it is, this is probably the wrong forum to ask the question.

As to a perfect figure from SM, if you look at the stated reason behind the fitting room, making it easier for 3rd party figures to gain a hold as there would be the ability to clothe any new figure from day on, I believe, only confirms their stance of being primarily a software develper.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - I doubt there will ever be a perfect Poser figure. Everyone has differnt ideas of perfect, so it will never happen.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

 

That's very true. And there are also different ideas of what looks "realistic", depending on what you're used to and where you come from.

For me the closest to perfect figure for what I usually need is Evolution Eve for V4. She has the best proportions for me (and by far the best feet!). M3 is the best male figure for me, M4 is not the correct shape and needs a lot of work to look anything like. I know that's not the same for everyone and I know that a lot of the figures that are described as more "realistic" are no interest to me, because that's not the "realistic" I'm after.

So "perfect" is definitely in the eye of the beholder! LOL.

Function defines form just like purpose defines topology in my opinion. What are people using these models for and what do they complain about? The biggest complaint of the old figures which were modeled for detail is that they all bend poorly. That could be (and has been) helped with morphs but then not all morphs work with all poses or with other morphs for that matter. So then you have to start looking at modeling for deformation. You can make a model that deforms great, needs little to no morphs but will probably render poorly without a heavy use of textures. Not ideal for our end user.  So a good Poser model needs to have a great blend of both and not adhere to one or the other. THAT is what a perfect Poser model would do. There has not been one made yet by anyone though we get closer and closer (rigging methods need to change too - but that's a battle for later).

Here are some models with really solid forms. Would they be simple for the average person to make morphs, maybe not but for someone who understands anatomy and form they should be able to get good looks out of them when combined with a solid texture.  

This is one by my friend Raul Teliki. He made this a very, very long time ago (I was still using Rhino back then).  You can see how well the forms are captured without a large use of muscle cuts. You can also see there's potential for defining the muscularture even more with the amount of geometry available.

So can the average user with little to no knowledge of anatomy make morphs for a character with defined cuts easier than one without? Absolutely. Is that the only way to do things? Nope. 

 I think doing area cuts in a medium res to high res mesh instead of full muscle cuts is the better way to go. That's my personal opinion, as it caters to both deformation as well as detail. Modeling for deformation is not the same as modeling for detail. Poser's nature is such that we need a happy blend, as our characters both have to deform and render well. This requires a compromise in topology or two different meshes for the same figure.  Finding the compromise - the right blend - is what I and many others are striving for.  

 

 

Here's another. It's a mesh designed for sculpting that could double as a mesh designed for deformation. As you can see, if you were to throw that into Poser's smoothing or even into the new subdivision we have, you'd have a mesh that would look killer. Again, note the complete lack of muscle cuts.

Lastly, here's a female mesh by Raul. Again, it's an old mesh. As  you can see, muscles aren't clearly defined but even in wire you get a sense of weight and anatomy.  So there are more ways to do the same thing. The question is, is it right for everyone? Is it something that every user will be able to use and be happy with? That's the problem. We don't have the luxury of knowing how a mesh will be used or in what capacity. There are people who only do head shots who have asked for high res models of just the heads of figures. We litterally can't please everyone but we owe it to everyone to explore all types of topologies and methods possible to achieve the best of all worlds. Sometimes that means YOU won't be happy but someone else will. Eventually we'll get to a point where everyone won't be happy per se but will be satisfied enough and that's the best we can hope for.

 

 

I should mention why I posted so many of Raul's images - he didn't use any sculpting tools back when these models were made. They were all created by hand. He only recently picked up ZBrush (and I think when last I spoke to him he was switching to Mudbox). Point is, there's no perfect mesh. There may be a mesh that's perfect for you as a user but will annoy the heck out of someone else.  All we can do is model, cross our fingers and hope for the best.

Check this out - this is Aki Ross, from Final Fantasy. This is her mesh designed by Francisco Cortina

And this is how it looked rendered.  I don't know if Poser's crowd would be happy with it but the crazy thing is, it was good enough for Maxim and good enough for Film. So you see the plight we as content creators have to deal with? The mesh makes those done by Poser's team look both highly detailed and overly complicated for no good reason. It's a weird thing to realize.

Did you ever see this one? A morphed Poser 4 Lo Res mesh during one of the fitting room tests :-)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Maxim does realy look good Teyon.

Did you not have a good female Lo res mesh at one time?
I remember something like that, and was hoping for it to make it to Poser.
Yes, I even have a screengrab of her on another PC.

You,  also had a very good Lo Res Female Mesh.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Yes but I wasn't pleased with her look. So I scrapped it. For me, form is key but I learned alot and what I learned went into the ZBrush sculpt for Roxie.

Oh and this is what games of the PS3/360 era are capable of. Games of the PS4/XBox One have a greater level of detail. With characters that look that close to their real world counterparts, I see no problem with aiming for either film res or game res modeling. 

BTW, someone said I was taking a jibe at Genesis. Not really. My point was everyone screams at how great DAZ figures are, but then again, even DAZ has some flubs. I'm thinking mainly of Stephanie Petite which I thought was a great figure, but Victoria was still more popular.

So why was that exactly? Did DAZ not support their own figure well enough? Did the vendors not like her? Or the users? She was made of the same unimesh as Victoria 3 , just different proportions. So why was she an also ran next to V3?

SP3 is probably my favorite female figure. Perhaps part of the problem was that she was seen as an also-ran to V3, but she also had some flaws that probably hurt her standing among the cheesecake crowd.

The original Steph was made of the Michael mesh, and perhaps SP3's origin was with M3.  For whatever reason, she had a bit of a horse face.  Nothing you couldn't fix with a few morphs, but how a figure looks "out of the box" matters.  She also had small boobs that got a tad faceted if you blew them too much. 

As for your original question...we may be about to find out.  :-)

Quote - BTW, someone said I was taking a jibe at Genesis. Not really. My point was everyone screams at how great DAZ figures are, but then again, even DAZ has some flubs. I'm thinking mainly of Stephanie Petite which I thought was a great figure, but Victoria was still more popular.

So why was that exactly? Did DAZ not support their own figure well enough? Did the vendors not like her? Or the users? She was made of the same unimesh as Victoria 3 , just different proportions. So why was she an also ran next to V3?

 

I always preferred the SP's to the V's.  Mainly because of the more realistic proportions. Also explains why I prefer the proportions on the Miki's and the new Poser figures.

But the majority of the community seems to prefer "fantasy" or "supermodel" proportions (which makes sense, most of the art we see in the galleries is fantasy oriented). It's just a matter of preference, really. Not anything anyone did "wrong."

I'm actually really excited about the new figure. I love seeing figures released and different ways of approaching content.  Very exciting times.

Quote - I'm actually really excited about the new figure. I love seeing figures released and different ways of approaching content.  Very exciting times.

 

Me too!!!!! 

I like new figures too.

But not the way they try to push them. . . . . .

I am waiting for Rex and Roxie SR's to go full bore on them.
They morph very well, and only need more texture sets.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

SP3 and David 3 are "siblings". They share almost all joint centers.

Part of SP3's problems was the fact that V3 was so huge.

To make SP3 look "believeable" standing next to V3, they had to shrink her head to ridiculous proportions. The oval face shape and the crane-like neck didn't help, either.

With some more realistic proportions and the right texture, I find SP3's default face actually quite pretty. Whoever sculpted her face managed to make her look really different from V3 and give her her own personality.

Still my favorite DAZ girl. She and MIKI 1/2 were the only DAZ/Poser figures that looked realistic right out of the box to me.

 

Teyon :

Does V6 work with zBrush / Trasform / use Posable Symmerty ?

Thanks

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Perfect figure, I don't believe that will ever happen but one who's mesh topology with edge looping that follows muscle grouping, doesn't leave off or skip areas of the body like shoulder blades or hip/pelvic line or rib line or the clavicle or the dimples of Venus on the lower back with all it's body parts attached would be a good. Perhaps correct limb lengths and proportions and anatomically designed off reference pictures/photos of a real living humans.

Also one that isn't a hundred thousand polys and rigging that doesn't have off beat or off the wall technical tricks that merchants find off putting.

 

 

 

My brain is just a toy box filled with weird things

Quote - Teyon :

Does V6 work with zBrush / Trasform / use Posable Symmerty ?

Thanks

 

I don't know. I haven't looked at her but I don't see why she wouldn't. It's just a mesh.

Quote - > Quote - Teyon :

Does V6 work with zBrush / Trasform / use Posable Symmerty ?

Thanks

 

I don't know. I haven't looked at her but I don't see why she wouldn't. It's just a mesh.

oh my bad ,momma told me not to do drugs ;)
Anyways Genesis 1 will not work with Posable Symmerty.
Hope'n that was one of the updates for G2

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Maybe there is no such thing as a perfect Poser figure but Dawn by HiveWire 3D may come pretty darn close!! We will see when she is released.

"People who attempt define what art is or is not, are not artists"---Luminescence

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Teyon :

Does V6 work with zBrush / Trasform / use Posable Symmerty ?

Thanks

 

I don't know. I haven't looked at her but I don't see why she wouldn't. It's just a mesh.

oh my bad ,momma told me not to do drugs ;)
Anyways Genesis 1 will not work with Posable Symmerty.
Hope'n that was one of the updates for G2

 

Really? You turn it on before Posing right? You're meant to do that. It has to establish the symmetry first and then you can pose it and switch posable symmetry on and off at will after that. I'd find it odd that they made Genesis assymetrical. Then again, ZBrush's symmetry also has some quirks so maybe it's a combo of both? I guess we'll find out if Gen2 works with it soon enough.

Was stated in another thread that Genesis is indeed symmetrical.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Teyon :

Does V6 work with zBrush / Trasform / use Posable Symmerty ?

Thanks

 

I don't know. I haven't looked at her but I don't see why she wouldn't. It's just a mesh.

oh my bad ,momma told me not to do drugs ;)
Anyways Genesis 1 will not work with Posable Symmerty.
Hope'n that was one of the updates for G2

 

Really? You turn it on before Posing right? You're meant to do that. It has to establish the symmetry first and then you can pose it and switch posable symmetry on and off at will after that. I'd find it odd that they made Genesis assymetrical. Then again, ZBrush's symmetry also has some quirks so maybe it's a combo of both? I guess we'll find out if Gen2 works with it soon enough.

took M5 apart in C4D.
M5 "just the skin" top gumm bottom ,gumm would Posable Symmerty.
teeth n eyes n all would not.never broke them in to peaceses to see if they would in peaceses
So All I know is somewhere between Daz Studio ,Genesis 1,Goz and zBrush.
There's a problem.not sure where.

 

Yes I know how to work Posable Symmerty,
For once it wasn't me

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - took M5 apart in C4D.
M5 "just the skin" top gumm bottom ,gumm would Posable Symmerty.
teeth n eyes n all would not.never broke them in to peaceses to see if they would in peaceses
So All I know is somewhere between Daz Studio ,Genesis 1,Goz and zBrush.
There's a problem.not sure where.

 

I don't have M5, so I can't verify whether or not it is symmetrical after being exported from DS.

However, in regards to ZBrush, if a figure isn't perfectly symmetrical when you bring it in to ZBrush, you can use SmartResym to help. However, it's tricky when it comes to "unconnected" body parts that don't have a center seam that runs through the zero X coordinate.  This is why you can sometimes have difficulty with the eyes, teeth, etc of ANY figure that has had its symmetry shifted through various imports and exports.

You said the body symmetry can be fixed. The reason why is because it has a center seam that runs along the zero-X coordinate. Then it can compare the right and left sides of the model and adjust unsymmetrical vertices accordingly as best it can.

But the two eyes don't have a center seam; and the teeth don't have center seams. So ZBrush has no "center point" to reference. It has to take its best guess as to which points to match to which.

In order to determine where the problem is happening, you'll need to check the symmetry at each step. Make sure that the model is in its DEFAULT position (fully zeroed, no rotations, no translations, and no scales) before you export it from DS. Don't use GoZ ... just export it from DS as an OBJ file, and import that OBJ into ZBrush. Check the symmetry before you do anything else.

 

Quote - SP3 and David 3 are "siblings". They share almost all joint centers.

Part of SP3's problems was the fact that V3 was so huge.

To make SP3 look "believeable" standing next to V3, they had to shrink her head to ridiculous proportions. The oval face shape and the crane-like neck didn't help, either.

With some more realistic proportions and the right texture, I find SP3's default face actually quite pretty. Whoever sculpted her face managed to make her look really different from V3 and give her her own personality.

Still my favorite DAZ girl. She and MIKI 1/2 were the only DAZ/Poser figures that looked realistic right out of the box to me.

 

IIRC, SP3 was made to look like Juliette Lewis.  Always been one of my favourites, too.

It has to be said, you do great work with your figures.  Is there any legal way to share 'em?  

 

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Quote - It has to be said, you do great work with your figures.  Is there any legal way to share 'em?

He has.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2864342

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=4045684

Aha.  Thanks.  :)

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Quote - What it would take to make Rex base mesh.

Model Rex ruff pre subd mesh with a few tri's 4 hours. C4D
Subd make REX 100% quads. 1 click, 1 minute. C4D
Tweek the subd mesh.4 hours C4D
Map Rex 30 minutes. zBrush
Rig Rex 4 hours. C4D
I've never rigged in Poser but I'm sure it would be about the same as C4D

oh a texture 30 minutes.zBrush

13 hours.just one days work, that's why they give so much $$$ for the software.
A custome made mesh is not cheep eather.

Forgot the morphs
30 minutes for each of the full body n face morphs zBrush

kitteh falls over laughing hysterically

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Quote - > Quote - What it would take to make Rex base mesh.

Model Rex ruff pre subd mesh with a few tri's 4 hours. C4D
Subd make REX 100% quads. 1 click, 1 minute. C4D
Tweek the subd mesh.4 hours C4D
Map Rex 30 minutes. zBrush
Rig Rex 4 hours. C4D
I've never rigged in Poser but I'm sure it would be about the same as C4D

oh a texture 30 minutes.zBrush

13 hours.just one days work, that's why they give so much $$$ for the software.
A custome made mesh is not cheep eather.

Forgot the morphs
30 minutes for each of the full body n face morphs zBrush

kitteh falls over laughing hysterically

I'm glad I can keep you amused
Was just woundering how long it took to make those wicked cool
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/bootleggers-for-v4/72971
Bootleggers for V4 ?

 

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

Well if it could use textures,  and clothing already available for V4 and didn't cost an arm and a leg to get and maintain (i.e. buy new textures, characters, clothes etc) - there is a good chance it would.

Just enjoying the Vue. :0)

Apparently the perfect Poser Figure has been upstaged by an announcement by Steve Kondris

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

 Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

I never like the base SP3, weird looking creature! But with Blackhearted's Irina version she turned into something gorgeous. I should really use her more.

Quote - Apparently the perfect Poser Figure has been upstaged by an announcement by Steve Kondris

did I miss something o.0

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

Quote - > Quote - Apparently the perfect Poser Figure has been upstaged by an announcement by Steve Kondris

did I miss something o.0

 

Looks like it.

 

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2868999

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - Apparently the perfect Poser Figure has been upstaged by an announcement by Steve Kondris

 

Only this thread. I, for one, am thrilled at the news of Dawn. And for the record, my starting this thread just before the release of the news about her was purely coincidental.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Apparently the perfect Poser Figure has been upstaged by an announcement by Steve Kondris

did I miss something o.0

 

Looks like it.

 

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2868999

Oh that.

Isnt it GREAT^.^

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

Dawn has real toes!  Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

I felt this thread could use a kick as yes the OP was before the Dawn announcement

I am ambivalent about this Ultimate Figure concept (I can't define it for myself let alone communicate that to anyone else)

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

 Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

However, in regards to ZBrush, if a figure isn't perfectly symmetrical when you bring it in to ZBrush, you can use SmartResym to help.

*Last time I used SmarResym in Zbrush, it changed the vertex order resulting in an exploding morph. I haven't tried it in the latest version. 

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Dawn has real toes!  Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

*Is that Dawn? Those are toes we can play piano with, just like in real life. 

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Apparently Dawn doesn't have a brow geometry plane so her brows are in the texture Booo Hiss (Based on the wireframes posted elsewhere)

but this thread is about La Perfecta the Poser User's Dream Girl

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 Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
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So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

Quote - Dawn has real toes!  Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

OMGOMGOMG TOES! OMG I so cant wait for her!!!!!!!! what about her hands? o.0

oh OHH and breast....are they still the forever hooter saluters or do they actually lay correctly? @.@

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

Images of parts of Dawn's mesh have been posted in the Dawn thread in Freestuff.  Here's her boobs.  Chris Creek said he's including several breast morphs in free base pack.

Why, oh why, are the breasts "again" too high up the chest.................. 

Lower the arms and the breasts are on the shoulder blades.

Some things will never change.

When will someone finally understand that breasts have to be modeled in their natural GRAVITY / DOWN position.

99% of all renders are with the ARMS DOWN.

Breasts are at least 3" to high on the chest, again.

Do you all walk around in a "T" pose? With breasts lifted?

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - Do you all walk around in a "T" pose? With breasts lifted?

No, but I do wear a bra.  :-)

Even with a bra they are too high.

STANDARD = With arms in a loosely down position. As when standing normally or walking around.

The nipple hight is in the center between collar bend and elbow bend.
Right in the middle of the biceps when you bend your forearm.

Go out, look around.

it is OK to model in a "T" pose.
But you can NOT model breasts in a "T" pose, because they will always end up too high on the chest.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I dunno, I think they're ok....for a girl of a younger age. If I wanted granny I'd move em down tho. LOL.

Laurie

I thought she had breast bones? Then I read she doesn't? So breast movement will have to be controlled by morphs then? Also the toes are nice, but you cannot curl them without a morphs set, since there is only one bone per toe, and V4 already has more toe flexibility here http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/perfect-toes-v4---movement-morphs/91696

So these morph sets for her will be required, unless the developers include such morphs natively in their packs.

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Quote -
it is OK to model in a "T" pose.
But you can NOT model breasts in a "T" pose, because they will always end up too high on the chest.

This is true. T-Pose alters the natural resting position. However that can be remedeed by creating morphs while the figure has their arms down, isolating the breast morphs in that pose and transferring them to the T-Pose position.

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But fixing the breasts afterwards with a morph will distort the texture as Vilters correctly points out in the Dawn thread.

And Zev0 is right about the toes. Unless you have a full set of toe bones like the Poser 5 to 10 people, you need morphs.

(And I rather prefer morphs because re-rigging fingers for exteme morphs is already hard enough. That's why I also don't like rigged tounge and teeth or additional helper bones.)

Quote - But fixing the breasts afterwards with a morph will distort the texture as Vilters correctly points out in the Dawn thread.

Yes true, then again what other option is there? Unless people are happy with how they look as is. Only other solution is a custom UV to cater for the morph set to prevent stretching, which I do not think is a viable solution.

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HiveWire3D is going for anatomically correct.
The breats topolagy loop that divides the breast from the rib cage is in about the right place.
A male & flat chested female nipples set at the same place on the ribe cage.
If you want bigger ,gravity affected breast then you start from the second breast loop,third breast loop etc etc pull out and down.

Now if you don't want to go for anatomically correct that's fine to ,it's your mesh.
Artist are not allways accussed of folling the rules.Worked out good for Picasso.

HiveWire3D did not follow the Quad Rule ,Oh the sinners. C4D is going to get them ;)
That one .jpg wireframe just exsplains it all and why the divide in to two companies ,don't it.

I've never been that concerend with toes.
but Rex's n Rox's toes are rigged also.
So I guess all the meshes toes will be rigged now
,that's a good thing for those who need rigged toes.

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Quote - Even with a bra they are too high.

STANDARD = With arms in a loosely down position. As when standing normally or walking around.

The nipple hight is in the center between collar bend and elbow bend.
Right in the middle of the biceps when you bend your forearm.

Go out, look around.

it is OK to model in a "T" pose.
But you can NOT model breasts in a "T" pose, because they will always end up too high on the chest.

not all breast fit that measurement. as nippel position varies per woman, breast shape and weight and age. some have Hooter Saluters..some have slouchers...some have the downward pointing brown eyes...they all vary. Starting with a fairly simple breast shape is a good starting point.

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

I am beginning to think vilters has a point on this.  If you drop the arms to her sides (eyeballing it) it seems that the nipples will line up at about top of her bicep.  I tried looking up some good natural photo reference and found a few that mostly all conformed to the mid bicep 'rule' but it wasn't very in depth as i have a family and it probably looked liked I was just surfing porn!

I'm not terribly concerned about it though, it seems to me you could morph it into line. spreading the stretch out enough as to not be overly noticable.  I'm not planning on many closeup naked boob renders anyway!

Quote -  

HiveWire3D did not follow the Quad Rule ,Oh the sinners. C4D is going to get them ;)
That one .jpg wireframe just exsplains it all and why the divide in to two companies ,don't it.

 

I noticed a lot more liberal use of triangular polygons in the mesh pics we have seen.  I've never quite understood why they are a bad thing TBH.  The first few models I made had tons of them and they didn't seem to cause much for ill-effect

At least the shrimpers are happy.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - > Quote -  

HiveWire3D did not follow the Quad Rule ,Oh the sinners. C4D is going to get them ;)
That one .jpg wireframe just exsplains it all and why the divide in to two companies ,don't it.

 

I noticed a lot more liberal use of triangular polygons in the mesh pics we have seen.  I've never quite understood why they are a bad thing TBH.  The first few models I made had tons of them and they didn't seem to cause much for ill-effect

For some reason, Poser doesn't like triangles.

Quote - For some reason, Poser doesn't like triangles.

Why do you say that?  As JoePublic has pointed out, Poser figures like M2 have plenty of triangles, and they are fine in Poser, even with SubD.

He says it was game engines that had trouble with triangles.  That is no longer true, but the idea lingers.

Hey, that's what I heard. I try to avoid putting any triangles in my meshes when I model though, but I have put them in and I agree that Poser seems to handle them quite well.

What Poser doesn't like are long, thin triangles.

Some modelling techniques create very messy meshes when converted to object files.

But as long as polygon size is fairly even, Poser doesn't care about quads, tris, poles or even n-gons.

Game meshes are always 100% Tri's

http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99126

Game meshes do not get SubDed

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Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

If the new figure was capable of both sekirei/queen's blade perportions (my favorite) or thin/atheletic/"real" perportions, she has potential to do well.

If she has a pretty face and looks nice enough out of the box, she can do well.

If her ears are built to flatten so we can add cat ears or fox ears, then she's the best model ever.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - If the new figure was capable of both sekirei/queen's blade perportions (my favorite) or thin/atheletic/"real" perportions, she has potential to do well.

If she has a pretty face and looks nice enough out of the box, she can do well.

If her ears are built to flatten so we can add cat ears or fox ears, then she's the best model ever.

 

pretty much any ear can be smoothed away or flattened.  I did it for v4 regularly when I made female twi'leks, then pulled the geometry out into a nub.  The only problem for me was that flattened and then pulled out nub was textrued like the inside of an ear