Its at 48% off right now ($285).  If you are a 8.5 owner already (or I guess that means 8.1 Pro), its another 50% off ($142.50)...and if you are PC, then another 40% off (~$87)

If you are not PC member, its cheaper to join, versus spending $142.50, as the PC Club costs ($24) plus the PC discount ($57) totals around $110

I'm out. End of the line for me. It's horendus to think my $50-60 assumption was so optimistic.

I don't mind being wrong, I do mind being this sort of wrong.

Mine says $285 for the upgrade. $285? Has someone lost their ever loving minds? I didn't pay half that going from C7 to C8. And DAZ expects me to pay that for a freaking .5 update?

And what really bites, or makes me question my fellow carraraests is it they are buying it. And not at the 50% off. They see it in the cart full price and still go ahead and check out.

If any of you have any sense you will boycott it till DAZ freaking comes to their senses.

I wouldn't pay that if that was the full update price. Think about this, do the math, if it's $285 for a .5 update what do you think the C9 upgrade will cost? $570, for an upgrade? I didn't pay that for carrara when I bought it.

But I'm out, DAZ has priced me right out of this. You all have fun. It seems my banning wasn't such a bad this.

Moving on.

It does not show up at $142.50, until you add to cart, and then go to your cart.  (if you are a C8.1 Pro owner, that is, there is still no obligation at that point)

Any further discount mentioned above is Platinum Club related, as mentioned.

Sorry to hear it, but a lot of folks still love and have fun with C7Pro, so where you are at is not a bad place to be.

C8.1. But ain't it a hell of a note when I am not pesimistic enough? Really? I wasn't pesimistic enough

That is 16 for 19 DAZ, and you wonder why I post my assumptions like a fact.

I'm just stunned, "$285 for a .5 update"????? Just keeps running through my mind.

What part of over pricing the C8.5 update is going to cost DAZ loads of money in G1/G2F sales doesn't DAZ get? If people don't upgrade there is certainly no reason to spend anything on G1/G2F.

Dear DAZ forum mods. After this please don't ever acuss me of this "posting untrue and exaggerated assertions misrepresenting DAZ" again. Because it is quite clear I don't exaggerate my assertions near enough. All those posts that were pulled when I was assuming the upgrade price, where in the long run, low ball assumtions to an extreme.

I never, even in my worst pessimism, expected it to be more the $160 full price.

This is just, ... wow

Seems to me Carrara dev's got hit with scope creep by the company on this one (i.e. called it 8.5, then got stuck with that number, but then had to add all of the Genesis, auto-fit, triax support, etc.)

Seems a pretty big add, that probably should have been called 9.0...

This release is going to appeal to the Genesis group, less so to the non, since the Pro bundles sweeten the pot.

Yes, but how many of the Genesis group already have them? They have been out long enough. If I had wanted them I could have bought them by now.

The question is what is the value of those freebies for a figure that is quite apparently, not in development? Yes, that is an assumption on my part, please check my assumptive track record

Yes I will still be using C8.1 but I am done being a DAZ customer. I can't use the new figures so no reason for me to shop there.

I can always shop on stonemassons site, I'd rather give him all the money straight up to begin with. I'll miss Jack, but Lisa and ken are at hivewire anyway. That only leaves 2 PAs at DAZ I am fan of, so......

I said Fan not friend There are PAs at DAZ that are higher on my friends list then PA list.

Does Carrara have an instruction/reference manual explaining the tools? I know Daz seems to have aversions to these. I can't justify spending that kind of money on a product if there is no manual.

The v7 manual comes with v8.5 apparently, but there is doco on new features, as we saw it in the forums before release.  Search at Daz forums for that, and you should be able to get some info.  I'll poke around for a link or two about it.

Quote - I can always shop on stonemassons site, I'd rather give him all the money straight up to begin with.

Stonemason's site?!

I didn't know he even HAD a site.

I'm not sure you can shop there, but if I had a choice

http://stefan-morrell.com/

 

I've been a fan of Stefan's since he was working onthe cloud car here years ago.

I have to agree with you, Stan. That's way too much for a point release for Carrara. I don't know if you can see the forums at DAZ, but Spooky or Jared replied to someone that the cost is pretty reseaonable considering the V5 M5 bundles you get. I and others don't see those bundles as incentive to buy.

I'd much prefer a 'no bundles' option to upgrade, but probably not happening.

I'll probably skip this one unless they pull a DAZ and give the thing away in a month or two.

Not looking forward to seeing how much they're going to sell 9 for.

Quote - I'm not sure you can shop there, but if I had a choice http://stefan-morrell.com/ 

Thanks for the link.

No, you can't shop there, BUT he does have a few really nice freebies to pick up. I'm a big Stonemason fan too. I would get every item he comes out with if I could manage.

Quote - I have to agree with you, Stan. That's way too much for a point release for Carrara. I don't know if you can see the forums at DAZ, but Spooky or Jared replied to someone that the cost is pretty reseaonable considering the V5 M5 bundles you get. I and others don't see those bundles as incentive to buy.

I agree with the two of you. The price, even at $85 is pretty steep for my money right now. I DO have to admit, the two Pro bundles are appealing to me, because I don't already have V5 or M5 or any clothes for them.

Quote - I'll probably skip this one unless they pull a DAZ and give the thing away in a month or two.

I don't think they'll give this one away. I thought they were going to give C8Pro away back when they had the big Free software deal, but I was surprised they didn't.

I don't even plan on using C8.5 for awhile (I still haven't installed my C8Pro yet), but at some point I will need to make a move and don't want to get killed on the price.

 

Oooo! Cool stuff from Stonemason. Gotta love those freebies. Thanks.

Quote - I don't even plan on using C8.5 for awhile (I still haven't installed my C8Pro yet), but at some point I will need to make a move and don't want to get killed on the price.

 

I'm in a bit of the same boat. I do like some of what 8.5 offers, but I probably won't really get to use it for a while. I was anxious to buy until this morning. Ouch!

Quote - I was anxious to buy until this morning. Ouch!

Craziest part is, even if you wanted to spend the money, it probably wouldn't have come up as the right price in your cart. LOL!

I'm sure you've seen the people talking about that over at Daz.

Oh, yeah. I think I saw maybe a half dozen different prices quoted by various people. Some even had a different price each time the refreshed their cart. Why does DAZ even release products when no one's in the office?

Had to try several times to get the discount for owning Carrara 8 to work.  Finally did, got the update for $80 +/- (I re-upped for platinum club which I had let lapse, and caught up on a bunch of 1.99 items).  I am ok with the deal for the upgrade.

Klebnor

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.

Quote - Had to try several times to get the discount for owning Carrara 8 to work.  Finally did, got the update for $80 +/- (I re-upped for platinum club which I had let lapse, and caught up on a bunch of 1.99 items).  I am ok with the deal for the upgrade. Klebnor

I'm glad the deal works for you Klebnor.

Let us know how the software works after you've played with it for a little while.

 

I have bought all Carrara  since version 1 from Eovia to version 8 pro from DAZ

I am a Pc member from its debut

I have paid for DAZStudio pro before it come for free

I have bought the two bundles coming with the Carrara upgrade

And on my cart i see 171 $ for upgrade to Carrara pro 8,5

So thanks Daz : not for me  now

martial, please either try it again, or send DAZ sales support a ticket with the order number of your Carrara 8 purchase.

I had the same problem initially, and then the cart got corrected for me. I didn't even have to send my request to DAZ. But other people have sent them sales tickets and got their discount properly applied. I hope this helps.

I got the $171 price too, put in a ticket, tried a few more times and, by DAZ magic, suddenly the discount kicked in.  No idea what did it.

I suggest going in and out a couple of times, and definitely start the check out, as it was never right in my shopping cart.

What a website.

Klebnor

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.

Thanks every one 

I will try again  or maybe wait until after 1 september using also the platinum month discount for september

I'd suggest not buying it at all. It just encourages DAZ's thinking that $285 is a "neglagble" upgrade fee. Or has everyone forgoten?

neglagble: so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant.

Seems everyone is looking at that $85 and not the actual update cost. The actually update price is $285, everyone has been blinded by this discount and that discount. Do you all honestly think $285 is a fair price for a .5 update when the actual full price of C7pro to C8 pro was only $225.

And I agree, the V5/M5 probundles just don't cut it for me. G1 has been out for two years, the V5/M5 probundles have been out nearly as long. If I wanted them I would have gotten them by now. And every one knows, G1 is dead, 2 years with no update.

So what are we getting for that $285? A few nice tweaks, light icons that look like lights. A change up to the UI so it is more freindly for studio users. And the ability to use genesis; that is free in studio. Do you honestly think that is worth $285?

If C9 had improved atmospherics, full dymaic clothes, full soft body, and maybe a few dozen other tweaks and features it might be MIGHT BE worth a $285 upgrade.

But a .5 update, with a few tweaks, and giving us the privelage to throw a few hundered in to G1. Not hardly.

Bad polititions are put in office by good people that don't vote.

Bad business policys are kept in place by good people that buy anyway.

Before you blow me off, think about this. My most pesimistic assumtion at the cost of C8.5 was $225 LESS then the actual cost. I am the harbenger of gloom and doom, the pesimistic, cynical, critcal, conspericy theorest. And I was wrong on the optimistic side on this one, and by a big margen.

Seriouisly. If I had posted 3 months ago that the update cost for C8.5 would be $285, what would you have thought?

$110 was the total for me, plus Utah sales tax because that's where I live.

Had to proceed all the way to the last page for all discounts to be applied. The DAZ site automatically finds the appropriate discount from your record of purchases, you don't need to supply any information, but you do need to log on for this to work.

Make the Plantinum Club quarterly purchase at the outset. If you forget, click edit the final billing page and go back to grab it. Keep on top of that subscription or you will be automatically rebilled each quarter, if it works the way it used to.

My cost for upgrading from 7 to 8 was higher than this, about $140 I think, and that was through a quarterly PC purchase also. I was very glad to get the 64 bit renderer with 8 virtual cores cooking all at once. It really does this full bore, I checked frequently through Task Manager just to watch all eight cylinders spike.

Each person will have to weigh for her or himself whether the added value justifies the cost. It did for me because: 1) the price was less than my previous upgrade; 2) Poser Pro 7 and 3DS Max 7 won't run on my Win7 64 system even in compatibility mode; 3) I want to say on the upgrade escalator because version 9 will cost more going straight from 8 compared to 8.5; 4) I'm sure I'll use the new features and character models now that I have them.

SMcQ

Not arguing with you at all just pointing out.

"1) the price was less than my previous upgrade"

I checked my sales receipt on this; of coarse I still have it.

Carrara 8 Pro Upgrade: $119.97

Platinum Club Discount: -$79.98

So full price for the C7 pro to C8 pro upgrade was $199.95.

The C8.5 update; that is a .5 update, is just a bit more, like $85.

Facts.

I'm sure glad you are not arguing with me, just pointing out.

Let me better define my terms, for the sake of pointing out.

"The price" in my usage means the final price I paid after discounts. I think that's common parlance. You are entitled to use the full retail price, not the street price after discounts, and I'm entitled to not understand why you would do this.

Maybe I misremembered what I paid or you got a better deal, but $119.97, whether including tax or not, is still more than $117.95 including sales tax, so my statement still stands as a true statement, given that my usage of "the price" is what was actually charged to my credit card. The price (I paid) was better than my previous upgrade.

I don't challenge your correctness on the full retail price but I mean no offense when I say I don't really care what it was. My subjective determination of value will be based on what I actually have to pay. As I'm sure you know, that's what the term, "price point" means in marketing, the price at which there is a propensity to purchase. $110 plus sales tax for 8.5 Pro was below my price point.

The full retail price for an upgrade to 8.5 Pro, without any PC or 8 Pro discount, was much too steep for me. I reacted with the same shock you did, although much less anger. But when I found out more about the actual price I could pay, $110 looked good. I'm not going to fret about the $285 sticker price, why bother?

Whether the hidden upgrade pricing is just an oversight by DAZ, or bad reverse psychology, I don't know. Personally, I would have headlined the marcom with something like, "Upgrades to 8,5 Pro as low as $110!"

Then we'd be pointing out, not arguing, about $110 being a fair price for what you get. The .5 numenclature means nothing to me, I consider the new features and add ons.

In the final analysis, though, I think we can agree that "fair pricing" is a highly subjective determination, and that $110 comes closer to it than $285. It passed the threshold for me, perhaps not for you.

Genesis compatability is the only new feature/addon. That is free in Studio. Why should I pay DAZ for the ability to use/buy Genesis content? If the ability to use genesis was of any importence to me, I'd use Studio. It's free and works much better with genesis; much better 

In a couple of weeks, when it jumps up to $171, please tell me the value then. But then that would be $190, wouldn't it. And it was what? $200 for a full upgrade to C8pro, no discounts?

You may find the value in it. I've used the beta for 2 years, I don't. Something to ponder on, I'm about to sacrafice 2 years of work by not upgrading to C8.5. 2 years of work and it still doesn't have the value for me DAZ has placed on it.

Try this. If the C8.5 base price was $140, that would have been exceptable, 50% off plus the Pclub discount would have put it down to my predicted price. A price most peopel would have been more then happy to pay. But, I'd be whiling to bet DAZ lost at least 50% of the sales it could have gotten if C8.5 had had a reasonable price; and that is probably optimistic.

So the over pricing is probably costing DAZ coming and going. DAZ's screw up. One of these day they may learn. But so far I haven't seen any evidence of that. I mean the fewer people that buy the C8.5 upgrade the fewer people will be buying content. And isn't content the steam that drives the free Studio?

 

But hey, If you're happy, have fun.

So yeah, let's boycott Carrara! Let's try to convince people to not buy it! Let's whine and piss and moan on every Carrara forum on the web!

Seriously?

What's always been the BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS problem with Carrara is that it simply doesn't sell well enough for DAZ to pump an endless amount of resources into its development. There are plenty of reasons why DAZ has always struggled with Carrara: DAZ can't seem to figure out how to make a good case for Carrara, the (ignorant) perception of Carrara is that it's too advanced and complicated for the Poser/DS crowd, yet not advanced enough for the pros- (Neither statement is true) And the list goes on...

Seriously though, Carrara's biggest obstacle is Carrara users! I know for a fact that there are plenty of first-rate artists using Carrara, yet they rarely, if ever, post their work online. Every time Carrara comes up in a Poser or DS forum, nobody steps in to correct the endless stream of ignorance and misinformation that's being spewed by some mouth-breather who gave up on Carrarra five minutes after stealing it from a file sharing site.

Most of all it's the constant complaining by Carrara users. How many people have the whiners turned away from Carrara? How many people are illegally downloading Lightwave right now because DAZ made the unforgivable decision to charge half of what Carrara is actually worth?

So let's band together and boycott Carrara! Let's intentionally hurt the people who rely on Carrara! And maybe, if everything works out, DAZ will stop making Carrara and can all take out second mortgages and buy Maya!

~Jess

It's funny, having Poser, Poser Pro, Daz Studio and Carrara ... I have always been amazed at the value proposition of Carrara compared to other entry level apps.  I appreciate the robust tool set coupled to the ability to use Poser and Daz content.  I think it's actuallly pretty cheap on a value for money scale.

But that's just me.  I spent more taking my wife to dinner Saturday than the upgrade cost, and the upgrade will last me an awful lot longer.

Cheers!

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.

Quote - But that's just me.  I spent more taking my wife to dinner Saturday than the upgrade cost, and the upgrade will last me an awful lot longer. Cheers!

I don't spend that much on groceries in a month. It's a matter of prospective.

Hell, my monthly cable bill is more than the 8.5 upgrade!

When I first bought Carrara 5 from Eovia, it was $550 and I thought it was an absolute steal considering everything the app is capable of. I agree that DAZ's efforts with 8.5 would've been better spent on features other than Genesis support, but that's just me.

I wholeheartedly agree that the constant negativity from the Carrara community isn't helping anybody. I think our goal should be getting more people using Carrara!

Jess, thank you! :) I was getting to my own boiling point with all the stuff I was reading in the forums, but now that I've read your answer, I see that somebody else has said what I was feeling, so now I don't have to :).

And I agree with you, jt411! We should get more people to discover and use Carrara. I usually try to brag about it whenever I find people who'd listen :). But I'm not sure my art is good enough to do it justice, so I may not be the most convincing person to do it :(...

What's cable?

Just trying to keep it in perspective

How much of that negativety is about carrara?

I may gripe about autofit, or Genesis, and defenetly about DAZ, but not about carrara

I'll also point out I was a bit of a cheerleader for the tweaks to softbody and the new light icons. And I'll miss those more then genesis.

Also note, check my threads on what has become of all the carraraests on the carraracafe. I wont argue that many of us really need to leave a bigger foot print

So where's this DAZ gallery so we can? {or maybe I should say you can, because I can't }

I've never tried to hide what I am about, I want everyone to know my nature so they can judge my posts acordingly. If a new user needs help I will jump right in and try to help {*}  But I am not going to pull punches or candy coat anything.

Now look at this from my prospective, $285 is more then my living expences for the month. Feel me now?

 

Just a side note: With AT&Ts DSL bill going up steadily, cable with broadband is looking like a viable alturnative.

hey I bought it at 85 bucks.

The included content is useless to me. I use k4 happily or m4 or v4 etc and see no problems with them.

I thought the potential "cloth sim" might have improved over 8.1, and it has, but it's still so slow to be unusable unless you have a very low poly garment - and then it's still slooooow. Compared to Poser offering Daz should be ashamed of it.

Ultimately.... my thoughts- we have to give DAZ a reason to keep developing Carrara.

Whing and moaning or deciding to boycott Carrara upgrades will just end up getting Carrara trashed.

Mind you it's easy for me to say as I have a job and income etc.

I wouldn't be suprised that after daz has played skim the market they will offer the upgrade cheaper without the m5 etc bundles.

At the moment though I have 8.5 I can't really see any reason not to use 8.1

 

 

That's what I'll be using

C8.5 simply does not have the value to me DAZ has placed on it. I'll just wait for C9; unless it is horendusly overpriced as well. But I get this feeling DAZ has priced me right out of carrara. Hey, doesn't hurt my feelings to have no reason to buy content

Just means more money to spend on something else.

Well, I'm not boycotting DAZ, but the cost of this point update is too much for me for what little value I'd actually get. I mean, $285 is NOT a nominal fee. And I'm not spending $25 so I can get the update for $85.

I do not do Genesis and probably never will. All the Genesis content improvements are probably nice for someone who uses Gen, but not for me. In the end, it's just not worth the price...for me. Everybody has to make their own call. I don't have enough money to buy something just to support the company. If they produce something I need, of course I'll buy it, but not this time.

I'm with Stan. Carrara is great! I use it often. DAZ not so much.

 

Hey, Andrew! :)

Boycotting was an old stratagy to bring companies in line. Now there are just too many people that will gripe all the way to the check out, and buy it anyway. So there is no way for the stategy to work, and most companies count on that now.

I finally bought it for $85 and i think it is ok for this price

Continous support is the better way to have new version

I'm not really intending to admonish anyone for buying it. I can full understand why peopel would want to jump on it ASAP to get all the discounts. But to me this just sends DAZ the wrong message.

Yes, if $85 was the base price it would be great. But the only support people are giving is in DAZ's beleif $285 is a fair price for a .5 update. People buying in to this now practically guarantees the C9 upgrade will be pushing $600. And I don't even want to hear "oh that is an assumption, it wont cost that much". I was told that when I said DAZ could charge as much as $160 for the .5 update. 

Honestly people. Think about this, in your opinion is $285 a good price for a .5 update? Forget about the present discounts and sales. If there weren't any, would you be spending $285 for this?

Will anyone disagree with me that C8.5 at $285 is egregiously over priced?

People are looking at the out of pocket cost; and whom wouldn't, not that the actual price is way, way out of line. It's $225 more then my worst case senario.

Just give me C8.5 at a resonable price, forget the discounts, forget the bonuses, keep the content. I'd rather pay full price for carrara and it be $120, then $85 after a bunch of short term discounts. I have little issue with $120 being full price, I have major issues with it being $285.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. How would you all have reacted if I had said 3 months ago C8.5 would cost $285?

Be honest.

It's a product. We're consumers. We are not required to be cheerleaders; that's what our purchasing power is for. And legitimate complaints — such as, you're charging more than you promised for a release that is largely centered around selling us new content and fixing bugs from the previous release — should be heard. Relentless positivism is simply driving me batty. Carrara is a product, not a religion. There have been, particularly with Apple and the Mac versions, some serious problems  (with Mac, we're now almost THREE operating systems further along since 8.1, for instance, and 8.1 stopped working for most of us with a new OSX three months after 8.1 was released — two years ago). I'm glad some of you are ecstatic. I'm a little annoyed at being charged full upgrade price (albeit with discounts) for a release that fixes bugs and makes it possible for me to buy new content. I find it ironic the bug tracker completely changed right before this release, and all the previous history wiped clean.

I'm truly as positive as they come, and I'm irritated at the general, "How dare you have concerns." For instance, DIM still isn't installing for Mac successfully, into the Carrara package, and there are no instructions anymore on how to do it manually. And CMS isn't working at all on many Macs, but there's no guidance at all on what to do. Bringing up the problem, however, is being negative. Whatever.

CarltonMartin please note there is a lot, and I mean a lot of moderation going on on the carrara forum on DAZ. The reason you are seeing a lot of chearleading is because most everything else is getting pulled.

I've watched the page count on the sticked carrara announcement thread drop pages, several times over the last few days.

I don't know. Carrara 6 to 7 upgrade cost me $49 including a $20 discount, probably for Platinum club, while my Carrara 7 to 8 upgrade says $0 in my account. I thought the latter actually was less than $40, if I'm not getting it mixed up with Bryce. At any rate, something must be up with Daz to cause this inflation, especially when they're throwing in stuff to boost the price. Maybe they'll go cheap later on after the high spenders are all reeled in.

Maybe. I have all my receipts going back to C5; and I mean for everything I have bought on line.

DAZ will have to do something, I'm sure the sales have already started to drop. Once the payday is friday crowd is done, that will be it.

Well Daz have the 30 day guarantee.

They have enough people taking carrara back they will sit up.

1. if people buy it then Daz knows people are interested.

2. If people then take it back Daz will take a look at itself.

3. If people don't buy it for various reasons then Daz will not know whether a) there is no interest, b0 there is interest but it is too expensive, c) etc.

buying it and taking it back  is the best way to get daz's attention and to ensure a better future for carrara

 

Or DAZ could just read the posts they are pulling

I'd give that a go headwax, but I'd need the money back not a DAZ voucher. And I wont have my divedend check till the last of the week next month, so.....

That is why I hate limited time sales. I usually don't have the money at the time and the sale is over before I have any. I'd love to see DAZ go back to the days they had reasonable prices all the time and sales were an event. Not everything over priced and sales all the time. People are blinded by the sales and don't seem to realize the cost of content is half again what it was 2 years ago. I can understand rasing prices to cover the rising cost of production, but not by 50-75%.

That is an old marketing scheme, mark it up 40% this week then put it on sale at 30% off next week. Jack the price up 50% so people think they are getting a real bargen when it is 30% off.

Of coarse I'm wondering how the cost of production can go up after you lay off half your staff. Or how the cost of prodution can be so much when you don't actually produce anything. 95% of the new content in the DAZ store DAZ didn't produce.

Wasn't it a year or so ago that they were refering to us as unruly children or something, and then telling us that going forward there would be no more constant sales?

I seem to remember that right after that there was a sale.

And the sales haven't stopped.

DAZ isn't looking for artists, hobbiest, or profesionals, they are looking for consumers and little more.

And the one thing I have learned in all my years with DAZ is you can't believe anything they tell you.

**smoke and mirrors ** (American & Australian) something which is intended to confuse or deceive people, especially by making them believe that a situation is better than it really is.

dog and pony show

Fig. a display, demonstration, or exhibition of something-such as something one is selling. (As in a circus act where trained dogs leap onto and off of trained ponies.) *Gary went into his standard dog and pony show, trying to sell us on an upgrade to our software. *

Quote - DAZ isn't looking for artists, hobbiest, or profesionals, they are looking for consumers and little more.

Yeah, I do get that impression when I'm over there. This is one of those times when 'the good old days' really were the 'good old days'.

Quote - Wasn't it a year or so ago that they were refering to us as unruly children or something, and then telling us that going forward there would be no more constant sales?

I seem to remember that right after that there was a sale.

And the sales haven't stopped.

 

Yeah Books, 

But the sales don't seem to be real sales. There are a never ending stream of "savings" but they are mostly "Buy one, get the other at 30%, a 2nd one at 40%" type.

I would rather have the old sales back. You know, where I actually saved money when I bought stuff.

daz stuff is very expensive, compared to how it used to  be , as far as I can see, no proven facts though, just a feeling, lucky a lot of stuff is genesis which i don't want

Quote - DAZ isn't looking for artists, hobbiest, or profesionals, they are looking for consumers and little more.

And the one thing I have learned in all my years with DAZ is you can't believe anything they tell you.

**smoke and mirrors ** (American & Australian) something which is intended to confuse or deceive people, especially by making them believe that a situation is better than it really is.

dog and pony show

Fig. a display, demonstration, or exhibition of something-such as something one is selling. (As in a circus act where trained dogs leap onto and off of trained ponies.) *Gary went into his standard dog and pony show, trying to sell us on an upgrade to our software. *

 

You're absolutely correct in all respects of your argument which is why I gave up on C at version 7. I occasionally check the forum because I'm enjoying watching a program I used to love die and all the slack jawed gawkers stand around making excuses for DAZ - "well, we didn't get ANY of the features we've been asking for years but let's just keep paying DAZ for nothing and MAYBE it'll get better in the next 'version'".

No offense, but WHAT SUCKERS!

Is posing half-naked women in "fantasy" armor worth paying that much for a very OLD program that's been around all these years and still doesn't have the features that the all the other software packages consider "old school"?

Is adding a cloth sim really that hard that DAZ still can't get it right? Or a fluid sim? Or is it that DAZ couldn't care less because they know their C user base will buy whatever garbage they release no matter the price?

Look at the the spline modeler, still essentially the same as the original RDS version and what about the half-assed manual that has NEVER really been updated and is still just as vague as the orginal RDS paper version.

I switched to Blender and couldn't be happier, they care about their users and actually listen to their requests. Pretty much every month there's a new feature to play with and it doesn't cost a single dime. And for those of you who aren't happy unless you get to throw a lot of money at something all the money you wasted on C you could have had another 3D package, loaded with features and tools and that actually worked they way it supposed to.

If there's a problem with Blender, they fix it. Unlike DAZ with their "we'll fix it when we get around to it, but in the meantime here's another dragon or some more fantasy armor to enhance Victoria's breasts and it comes with gigantic breast morphs so she can look like she has a glandular problem"

I would suggest to anyone who wants to do any REAL 3D work, switch to ANY other 3D software, even the crappiest $9.99 CAD software from the cheap bin is better than C at this point, and probably has MORE FEATURES.

I'll probably get another threatening email from DAZ, but I couldn't care less because somebody needed to say it, they've been getting away with the "best value 3D software package" excuse for too long because that's not only a completely FALSE statement but it's patently absurd.

And for those of you who will keep on flushing your money down the toilet because of some irrational attachment to C with no hope of it getting better "if you just hang on till there MIGHT BE a version 9", I admire your loyalty to DAZ, but in all liklihood - let's be honest - a "version 9" will just be another long awaited and repackaged .5 update with nothing really new and a higher price to cover the high costs of "feature research and development".

Question is, how much more development is needed to add features that should have been added a long time ago?

Good luck and enjoy the wait.

 

 

Quote - "I'll probably get another threatening email from DAZ, but I couldn't care less because somebody needed to say it, they've been getting away with the "best value 3D software package" excuse for too long because that's not only a completely FALSE statement but it's patently absurd."

 

 

so daz sends threatening emails? i didn;t know that.

"so daz sends threatening emails? i didn;t know that." headwax.

Oh hell ya. I got one every time I told a newbie they could download and install content with out help, then told them how to do it.

DAZ simply does not want customers to think they can do it themselves. This way they are tied to the DAZ merchendising machine. Only DAZ content works with DIM so convincing people they have to use DIM dissuades them for shopping elsewhere as they don't know how to download and install content with out DIM.

And they certainly don't want content that can't be fed to them by CMS.

This is excatilly what I was arguing about over 2 years ago when the concept was first spoken of. The next step will be you wont be able to use any content in Studio that isn't downloaded and installed with DIM and works with CMS.

Titanic401 I wont rundown carrara because carrara isn't the issue, DAZ is.

DAZ has proven it lacks developers

Once again we are at the 2 year thing. DAZ took the deep dive in to blatent commercialisiam and put all app develpoment on a slow simmer, when DAZ lost most of it's origenal staff. DAZ hasn't actually been DAZ for 2 years. And I'd be whiling to bet they have more marketers then developers. I'd lay odds that there are twice as many people in the marketing deptment then in the developing department.

As I have said DAZ is turning in to little more then another content brokerage. They seem rather incapable of producing anything them selves. Even G2F is from a PA not DAZ.

And I think it is absurd how DAZ is continuesly trying to convince people G1 is still in development. 2 years with no update and still has all the issues it was released with, proves to me G1 is done. DAZ simply does not want to throw a wet blanket on G1 content sales.

Now unless some one wants to prove me wrong, I am of the opinioin DAZ has even lost or layed off it's studio developers. The last big thing to come out of DAZ was Studio 4, autofit, and Genesis. In 2 years Studio has gotten 2 updates, autofit seems to have had no development or bug fixes, and nothing has been done with G1.

Quote -  

 

Quote - "I'll probably get another threatening email from DAZ, but I couldn't care less because somebody needed to say it, they've been getting away with the "best value 3D software package" excuse for too long because that's not only a completely FALSE statement but it's patently absurd."

 

 

so daz sends threatening emails? i didn;t know that.

 

Why yes they do, and I replied by saying they made it crystal clear that badmouthing DAZ was a no-no.

Quote - > Quote - Wasn't it a year or so ago that they were refering to us as unruly children or something, and then telling us that going forward there would be no more constant sales?

I seem to remember that right after that there was a sale.

And the sales haven't stopped.

 

Yeah Books, 

But the sales don't seem to be real sales. There are a never ending stream of "savings" but they are mostly "Buy one, get the other at 30%, a 2nd one at 40%" type.

I would rather have the old sales back. You know, where I actually saved money when I bought stuff.

Yeah, I've noticed that. Buy a lot, save a little.

I do miss the old days. It was an exciting place to be during a sale.

Check this. I've been working on this pirate scene. Was going to get it in to the contest but is going to take me too long to rebuild, and I can't drape the clothes. None the less the scene is in my head so I am working on it. Working in C8.1 using M4 and his pirate outfit  when I realized not only are the pirate shirt morphs organised, but all the fit to coat morphs are there. In C8.5 they were all lumped in to one catigory with the fit to coat morphs missing. I checked the rest of the clothes and sure enough there were morphs in them in C8.1 that were absent in C8.5.

ya, I'm going to pay $285 for that.

The one thing I never really liked was how 8.5 organized things. That made it very user unfriendly for me. I know change is good, but when it's confusing, well, that's just too much change. That's just my opinion, so don't anybody go all DAZ on me.

That's interesting that elements are missing in 8.5 that are there in 8.1.

All the little things that are still wrong with this release is what gets me. According to what I read, installing content is sometimes a problem with content there then not there or never there, smart content not being so smart, Genesis use slowing everything down (I'd hate to think what multiple Gen figures would do to a scene), autofit still has issues, and now finding out that not all elements of a figure show up in 8.5.

Hmmm. Maybe you're right. Two hundred eighty-five dollars might just be a tad overpriced. I really do like Carrara. I don't want it to go away. I hope if 9 ever comes out it will be a bit more ready for prime time.

Another thing, it doesn't seem as though DAZ is putting any effort in promoting this release. It's not really being promoted anywhere but at DAZ and even there it's not a very prominant promotion.

It's on the bottom of the list of current 'hot' promotions being very quickly pushed to the bottom by content sales, and it's a sticky on the Carrara and (I think) Commons forum pages. No hoopla anywhere else that I'm aware of. What's up with that?

Just curious.

Agree. If you look on other forums you will see any mention of C8.5 coming out was from a carrara user; and not even carrara sheerleaders

Quote -
Yeah, I've noticed that. Buy a lot, save a little.

I do miss the old days. It was an exciting place to be during a sale.

 

Just came back from the Daz marketplace.

They have some kind of Stonemason sale. I love that guy. I love his stuff. I can't afford this sale. I have to buy 3 items to get 50% off!?

I guess Stoneman will be losing a sale because I might have been able to stretch to get one item for 50%, but not 3!

No kidding. Stonemason is great, but that's a sale for a rich man/woman. Not for me. When did a sale become 'not a sale really'.

Quote - No kidding. Stonemason is great, but that's a sale for a rich man/woman. Not for me. When did a sale become 'not a sale really'.

Shortly after it stopped being DAZ, when that online avatar company took over.

People just don't seem to realize they are spending more to get the sale price then if they bough it out right.

As I have said, I would rather pay the PAs directly, rather then give DAZ 50% of what I am spending on the item.

Wow guys.

I guess I kind of saw it, but my brain didn't actually recognise it.

The PA sale has started!

I mean, I saw Stonemason's new item up for sale, but the sale was so "wrong" my brain just didn't accept it as THE PA sale. THIS is the sale many of us wait all year for! It's the time of year I buy stuff from vendors who only seem to go on sale THIS month!

I guess what few pennies I can scrape together will go to Rendo and RDNA.

Totally underwhelmed by this PA sale. Too bad. You're right, tsarist, this and the PC event were what I lived for at DAZ. Not buying anymore. I've found all I need for general use here and at RDNA, and the occasional smaller site. Great deals, too.

I lived for the october sales. I probabaly spent 90% of what I spent at DAZ during that time. I'd join the Pclub in august or september in prep for it. Haven't the last couple of years. Just doesn't seem worth wild.

Agree.

I love C8.5 Pro, I spent the money to upgrade from C8.1 Pro and I don't regret it. Feature wise I find Carrara capable of so much in the 3d world. I know it's not the best at any one thing, but for the money it's a great deal. That's just my opinion and I allow others differ. 

I wish DAZ was a little better at PR for Carrara and at customer support. C8.5 Pro just told me my serial number is invalid. ???? I see on the DAZ site I am not alone. They got my money and I have been using C8.5 Pro since Aug 20th. Now a week later they do something to my account and I can't run C8.5 anymore. Glad I left 8.1 on my system.

I know it's just some kind of glitch, but a week later ???

Graphic Observations: Many problems can be solved by reading the manual Not all answers are equal Some problems don't need answers

Quote - I love C8.5 Pro, I spent the money to upgrade from C8.1 Pro and I don't regret it. Feature wise I find Carrara capable of so much in the 3d world. I know it's not the best at any one thing, but for the money it's a great deal. That's just my opinion and I allow others differ. 

I wish DAZ was a little better at PR for Carrara and at customer support. C8.5 Pro just told me my serial number is invalid. ???? I see on the DAZ site I am not alone. They got my money and I have been using C8.5 Pro since Aug 20th. Now a week later they do something to my account and I can't run C8.5 anymore. Glad I left 8.1 on my system.

I know it's just some kind of glitch, but a week later ???

Glad you like 8.5. As you probably know, I'm not an 8.5 user for various reasons, but if it works for you and your creative process, that's great.

As for the serial number thing and the lack of PR, well, that's just standard DAZ operating procedure. This sort of stuff happens often there, people just tend to forget or get disgusted and walk away. I'm sure the serial number problem will be fixed some time tomorrow.

Good luck.

I'll pay $285 for the C8.5 update when it comes with a silver hardcover users manual.

Yes folk, C8.5 Valued at $285, but with your club membership get it for just $171,

But wait, if you respond in the next two week take another 50% off that bring the cost to you to $85.50

But wait that's not all call with in the next ten minutes and get not just one but 2 at the limited time membership only price.

Operators ar standing by.

Just so people know what I mean when I say that is smoke and mirrors pricing.

"When either a person or corporate entity make an offer "look" attractive with window dressing when it really isn't - but in reality they are only using SMOKE AND MIRRORS to distort this so they can keep holding the carrot on the stick in front of you!!! Almost like a Jedi mind trick." Urban dicetionary.

"something intended to disguise or draw attention away from an often embarrassing or unpleasant issue" merriam-webster

"something that distorts or blurs facts, figures, etc., like a magic or conjuring trick; artful deception". dictionary.com

"irrelevant or misleading information serving to obscure the truth of a situation". World English Dictionary

"something which is intended to confuse or deceive people, especially by making them believe that a situation is better than it really is". the free dictionary

Get it?

DAZ is using these %off sales as smoke and mirrors to convince people that the .5 update is some how worth $285. I've said it before so you know I will say it again, if there was no 50% off for 2 weeks, and no Pclub % off, would you, in all honesty pay $285 for it?

The signal this is sending DAZ isn't you suporting carrara development, the signal you are sending is that it is alright for DAZ to way over charge for something as long as they have some % off limited time discount.

Are you ready for the $1K upgrade cost of C9? Well get ready.

 

$285? Hardly. But then you knew that. :)

I'm willing to wait and see what DAZ brings to Carrara in 9 (if it really comes). Great new features and improved old ones, some attention to detail and not just content related stuff, and I'd consider moving up. But if DAZ puts Carrara out at or near $1K then they've definitely priced me out of the Carrara club.

Hope springs eternal. Just hope I don't get drowned.

oh oh I had an epiphany today while in the surf....

daz isn't really charging us for the upgrade, they are charging us for the content that is bundled in with it, and the update is free

my reasoning: it's become apparent that the new serial numbers were screwed up and had a limiting date because they were carried over from the beta  - the way around this was posted on the daz forum - change the date on your computer to the date before the beta expired

i'm assuming that daz has done the same thing with the previous beta serials - that they can be tricked if you change the date on your computer and therefore still be usable

if this is the case it means that some unscruplous people who have an old serial can use the beta for free still. so Daz has shot herself in the foot.

and also poses a situation where daz can put an expiry date into any registration serial, so that your carrara can be unusable sometime in the future..

 

David, thanks for your thoughts on getting poser and carrara to talkkas far as obj sizes!

Quote - $285? Hardly. But then you knew that. :)

I'm willing to wait and see what DAZ brings to Carrara in 9 (if it really comes). Great new features and improved old ones, some attention to detail and not just content related stuff, and I'd consider moving up. But if DAZ puts Carrara out at or near $1K then they've definitely priced me out of the Carrara club.

Hope springs eternal. Just hope I don't get drowned.

from DAZ

Seriously, I checked it the second day of the sale, it hit my cart at $285. Why do you think I have been going on such a rip? Yes I am a carrara 8.1 owner. Yes, I selected the .5 update.

And if I am wrong, why has no one set me straight? Ask 3DAGE, I'm magnanimous when I am wrong. And not once has anyone said I was.

 

Quote - oh oh I had an epiphany today while in the surf....

daz isn't really charging us for the upgrade, they are charging us for the content that is bundled in with it, and the update is free

my reasoning: it's become apparent that the new serial numbers were screwed up and had a limiting date because they were carried over from the beta  - the way around this was posted on the daz forum - change the date on your computer to the date before the beta expired

i'm assuming that daz has done the same thing with the previous beta serials - that they can be tricked if you change the date on your computer and therefore still be usable

if this is the case it means that some unscruplous people who have an old serial can use the beta for free still. so Daz has shot herself in the foot.

and also poses a situation where daz can put an expiry date into any registration serial, so that your carrara can be unusable sometime in the future..

 

David, thanks for your thoughts on getting poser and carrara to talkkas far as obj sizes!

Makes sense to me. There are plenty of people who have said they'd rather have the update without the content at a lower price, mostly because they have the content already (hardly a great value if you already have the supposed 'free' stuff). Some actually asked DAZ if they would sell just the update without the content and the answer was a flat no. One word answer, no elaboration, just 'no'. That tells me that the content is what they're really charging us for.

The thought of DAZ giving time controlled serial numbers is troubling. Next thing would be a subscription service for Carrara. I would NEVER go for that.

Oh, and you're welcome. :)

But that is the point of DIM and CMS; in my opinon. A bit over 2 years ago DIM and CMS was proposed; but had not been nemaed yet. Just the idea of it put me off.Got in to a serious debate about it then.

I mean most of the issues I have had from DAZ content has been the installers, so now DAZ wants you to use a download installer? With DAZ's trackrecord for installers I was certain it would be a disater, and I wasn't far wrong.

And to me, despite being told other wise, CMS is just too close to DRM.

So, DIM downloads and installs to what ever DAZ is calling the studio content folder now, then through CMS keeps track of your content and if it has been updated. So what happens when it scans your content folder and finds some piece of content DAZ has no record of you buying? Don't even try to tell me some alert doesn't go off some place.

So here is DAZ trying to convince everyone DIM is a good thing; with the failure rate I don't see it, so newbies never learn to manually install content. How does this not dicourage newbies from shopping else where?

Then you have CMS, easy way to find content that is for the figure you have selected. Now if all my mil4 content was uptodate with meta data for CMS and I loaded V4 what would I get? 40 gigs of content in the CMS window, and this is suposed to be helpful in finding the clothes I am looking for?  Not hardly. And say I'm looking for a dress, would it load up hair, poses, and props as well? How is that helpful?

And yet something else to disuade newbies from shopping elsewhere. NonDAZ content does not have CMS meta data so wont show in the CMS window, leading newbies to beleve content from other sites is incompatable with studio, rather then incompatab;e with CMS. Figure for every person that posts on the forum about not being able toifind their newly installed content, 20will blow it off and not shop at the other store again. 

It is my opinon that even though DAZ touts DIM and CMS as apps to help newbies, all they are really for is to put newbies off shoping elsewhere. The proof is in DAZ admonishing and removing posts telling newbies they don't need DIM to download content and are quite capable of installing it manually; and generally with far less falderall and a better chance of it ending up in the right place.

I remember you talking at length about your misgivings about CMS. I agree with you. Don't like any software that has to 'phone home' from time to time to keep updated. My work computer is NOT connected to the internet just in case a program slips by me. I want updates when I want updates not when the company decides I need one.

Also, I so agree that knowing how to do something yourself is far more empowering than having someone do it for you. I know where my content is and I know where to find what I need because I've organized it the way that makes sense to me. The DAZ way never made any sense to me.

With my occassional purchase at DAZ, I never let DIM do anything. I download the individual files and install them myself. One day, I'm sure that DIM will be the only way to get anything from DAZ. That day will be the last day I buy from DAZ.

I never saw any reason for DIM of CMS. They just made something simple more difficult and time consuming not to mention sometimes confusing. But DAZ won't back down because they're never wrong.

Well I'm calling the BBB on DAZ. I'm sick to death of this purposful confusion as to pricing.

The pricing I find is for buying C8.5 not for the update from C8.1 to C8.5.

The way it looks to me people haven't been paying for a C8.5 update from C8.1, but they are buying carrara all over again. Am I still confused or are people not realizing they aren't paying for an update, they are buying carrara again?

Man I am so glad I haven't spent a dime on this.

 

Well that is done. Easier then I thought.

So, I am in a seriously foul mood so lets do this right.

DAZ_jared If I own C8.1, C8.5 is an update, not an upgrade. C9 would be an upgrade.

" If you join the Platinum Club you get an additional 40% off whatever version you purchase (pro or standard)."DAZ_jared

So I have to buy something I already own? Then it isn't even an update. It's the forced repurchasing of something I already own to get the update. That is just wrong regardless of the % off to get it. See smoke and mirrors.

"If you look at the feature list, and the included content the price is very reasonable." DAZ_jared

Considering it has been out for two years and most people that are interested in Genesis already have them, no. You're just giving them something they more then likely already have. At least when the mil4 figures came with C8 they were still in development. G1 is not.

And the one that gets me and I have raed a few times is "I'm buying it to show my support for carrara"

Sorry, all you are doing is convincing DAZ they can screw you around anytime they want as long as they give you a good discount to do it.

This sale may be a boon to those that don't already own C8.1, but if you do, and bought it, you just paid DAZ to screw you over, and DAZ didn't even give you a proper reach around did they? Bet that didn't come with a towel or kiss ether. Oh wait, it came with some 2 year old content for an out dated figure, there's your towel and kiss.

Not sure which has me more agitated, DAZ trying to sell me C8.5 when I own C8.1 or people buying it and giving DAZ the ok to screw us around again, at their leasure.

Well at least we aren't DAZ's redheaded step children, now we are DAZ cash puppets. DAZ just pulls the string and people empty their pockets.

 

 

Oh and it gets even better. If you own C8.1 you wont be able to upgrade to C9, you will have to buy it full price. There wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9. So skipping C8.5 is not an option if you intend to get C9.

So it is quite apparent that there is no update/upgrade for Carrara. You are going to have to buy it again. Then there is no gaurenty DAZ wont do the same thing for C9. In fact the way sales are going you can count on it.

You know you need to take a deep breath there Stanley.

"This sale may be a boon to those that don't already own C8.1, but if you do, and bought it, you just paid DAZ to screw you over, and DAZ didn't even give you a proper reach around did they?"

Insulting people because they spent their money how they wanted doesn't seem quite right to me. I get you don't think it's a good deal, but I did and I spent my money. I did because I wanted to. And it was my money.

I don't cheer for DAZ and get confused by thier policies sometimes.

I do think Carrara is a good product at the price I paid. That is my opinion and I am entittled to it. You are entitled to yours.

Hopefully we will all be creating and rendering in what ever tools we choose in the near future. Have a nice day.

Graphic Observations: Many problems can be solved by reading the manual Not all answers are equal Some problems don't need answers

Your opinion is welcome and you are indeed entitled to have one. As are all of us. We make our choices and we live with them.

I don't shop at DAZ unless I have to, and I did indeed skip this update/upgrade. It was my choice because in my opinion, DAZ lied to me. The price was a shock and far more than any point update is worth.

I also think that Carrara is a good product, I use it almost daily for work and play, but I believe it could be so much better. This update doesn't make it that much better for me than 8.1 pro is, so I need it not.

And you are right, we should all be creating and rendering in whatever tools we choose. It's not the tool, it's the talent behind the tool that makes or breaks an image, and in the end I just want to enjoy what I do. Carrara lets me do that, but it's not the only tool I use. I have a box full and none of them are perfect. Each does its own thing well and together they help me create art that I am proud of.

Nice day to you, too, Purplepanther. :)

Quote - Oh and it gets even better. If you own C8.1 you wont be able to upgrade to C9, you will have to buy it full price. There wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9. So skipping C8.5 is not an option if you intend to get C9.

So it is quite apparent that there is no update/upgrade for Carrara. You are going to have to buy it again. Then there is no gaurenty DAZ wont do the same thing for C9. In fact the way sales are going you can count on it.

Depressing, but probably true.

And the one that gets me and I have raed a few times is "I'm buying it to show my support for carrara"

 

that's why I bought it.

:) so be careful , I am lurking..... :)

If you have already bought carrara why buy it again at any price?

As I said, you are not buying an update, you are buying carrara all over again. Simple as that. Is that right?

DAZ promesed us; and repeatedly, the .5 upsate would be a nominal fee. Nothing was said about buying carrara again. So as mad as I was about of the price of a .5 update being $285, how do you think I feel about DAZ trying to resell me carrara?

We were promised an update. We did not get one. What we are getting is the privelage of buying carrara all over again. I don't want to buy carrara again, I just want the .5 update DAZ has been promising for 2 years and at the promised nominal fee. Am I some how wrong in expecting DAZ to live up to their word? Or has it got to the point DAZ can pretty well say what they llike because no one will hold them to it?

The languge may have been raw but that doesn't change the fact DAZ has done us carraraests wrong, and in a major way. I'm not at all sure why people don't see this. And it boogles my mind people would not only support it, but defend it.

The raw languge was a slap in the face in an attempt to wake people up to this. Buying in to it just encourages DAZ to do it again; and I mean with any product. It gives DAZ the green light to end the upgrade path. You will nolonger beable to upgrade carrara. You will have to buy a new version every release.

2 years ago there would have been such an out cry by carraraest that it would have shut down any and all carrara sales. We've done it before. Just when did carraraest do this about face? At that time it was only a proposed $65 dollar charge for C6.5. We found that so wrong we nipped it in the bud. Now DAZ is selling you carrara again, and calling it an upgrade. If $65 was out of the question then, why is $285 so exceptable now? What has happend in 2 years to so drastically change peoples opinons?

 

Now the news has already accidently been leaked out there wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9. As I said, the upgrade path is dead now. So If you don't get C8.5 to get the expected 50% off C9, as an owner of C8 you can expect to pay full price for C9. That sort of puts a gun to my head to buy C8.5, or else I will have to pay full price for C9; which I anticipate being $800-1000. This is something C8 owners need to be aware of.

16/19 folks.

Now the news has already accidently been leaked out there wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9

 

Hi Man, do you have a link to that leak? As far as the other stiuff, you are preaching to the converted so there's really no need to be so incensed (inmho). Daz has treated Carrara users badly. What's new? :) Car 8.1 works fine for me. That's what is important to me. If Daz cuts out an upgrade path Car 8.1 will still work just as well ... ;) Best not to belabour the point - just scares readers off.

cheers from 'ere

 

A spooky blunder in the carrara announcement thread. I'll see if I can find it and provide a link; if it is still there

Once the post is removed it is pretty easy to say it never happened.

hmm. Hit the wrong button lol 

"incensed" ya, that is pretty well how I feel

 

37 pages and it's gone now. Believe me or not, I know what I read. And it's one of those once you've seen it you can't unsee it

ahh thanks for looking :)

good to use screen grabs sometimes :) did you see JM was bagging the DIM? but subtley though , at least I think he was being subtle, .......

 

you might be interested in this too http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewforum/66/

I had a few pages take forever to finally load. Don't know what that was all about.

sorry I stupidly put  in the wrong link .... dunno how ?

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/28408/

Well if people push hard enough; meaning enough people point it out, DAZ may fix it in C9.

That is the sort of thing I can blaim a bit on myself. It was a beta of carrara but most of my time was spent working with geneis. This is why I wish; when beta testing, they would give full list of what all is new and needs testing.

Quote - A spooky blunder in the carrara announcement thread. I'll see if I can find it and provide a link; if it is still there

Once the post is removed it is pretty easy to say it never happened.

Damn, they "disappeared" it already.

At least someone reputable saw it. They can't just claim it never happened.

I'll weigh in on the evidence at hand. Fact C8.5 is not an update or upgrade, as you are actually rebuying carrara. That leads me to beleve with confidence C9 will be the same, not an upgrade from C8, but rebuying carrara to get C9.

So you can figure; or my assumption, is there will be a 50% off C9 for people that bought C8.5, and possibly a lower discount for those that didn't, say 25 or 30%. But all evedence at hand shows DAZ has taken carraraest off the upgrade path. I have no doubt C9, like C8.5 will be a repurches, not an upgrade.

Any DAZ_ can come on and controdict me, but I find that happening doubtful.

It appears what DAZ is up to; considering that apparently having bought any previous version of carrara from DAZ grants you the 50% off C8.5, DAZ is trying to get all carraraests on the same page, Genesis.

I have no doubt DAZ will make far more off forcing people whom want the update/upgrade to buy carrara again, then to offer an update/upgrade.

I see C8.5 coming with the V5/M5 bundles as DAZ giving you the garage so they can sell you the doors, windows, auto grage door opener, wireing, plugs, lights, heating, airconditioning and you see where I am going. Sales for the V5/M5 bundles has dropped considerably, as has most of the rest of the G1 content. Most dazzers; dazzies{?}, have moved on to G2F. So C8.5 coming with the G1 bundels may be a good thing, but it is still a way to bring in new customers to boost the sales of content for an outdated figure that is no longer in development and which the content sales have slumped drastically.

The $85 for C8.5 isn't too bad of a price, my issue is the way DAZ is going about getting that price. First up you start with the 48% off the repurches of carrara, add to that 40% off for the Pclub{?}, and another 50% off for 2 weeks. That adds up to 138% off, so where is my free C8.5 with the 38% DAZ voucher? Right, that isn't the way the math works.

Personally I'd be far more whilling to spend the $85 if DAZ wasn't using all the smoke and mirrors dicounts to fool people in to believeing having to repurches carrara is a good thing. That is my big issue.

Quote - Now the news has already accidently been leaked out there wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9

 

Hi Man, do you have a link to that leak?  

He made it up. It never happened.

Quote - > Quote - Now the news has already accidently been leaked out there wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9

 

Hi Man, do you have a link to that leak?  

He made it up. It never happened.

I don't think Stan is joking. I believe he really saw it.

I wish he was making it up, but I'm not that lucky.

 

Quote - sorry I stupidly put  in the wrong link .... dunno how ?

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/28408/

My guess is that someone left fast mipmapping on by mistake. Maybe someone's finger slipped just before they rolled out the final version. One of those, 'Ooops' moments, you know.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Now the news has already accidently been leaked out there wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9

 

Hi Man, do you have a link to that leak?  

He made it up. It never happened.

I don't think Stan is joking. I believe he really saw it.

I wish he was making it up, but I'm not that lucky.

 

I believe it, too. Love to be proved wrong, but doubt it.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Now the news has already accidently been leaked out there wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9

 

Hi Man, do you have a link to that leak?  

He made it up. It never happened.

I don't think Stan is joking. I believe he really saw it.

I wish he was making it up, but I'm not that lucky.

 

I believe it, too. Love to be proved wrong, but doubt it.

Proving that something was never posted by someone?  It never happened. 

Quote - I believe it, too. Love to be proved wrong, but doubt it.

I usually get to a place in my thinking that says "maybe Stan is just overeacting", then around announcement time I think "maybe it won't be quite as bad as Stan says", culminating in "Holy Fu*k! It's WORSE than Stan predicted!"

That's the way it's been lately, at least.

 

Quote - > Quote - I believe it, too. Love to be proved wrong, but doubt it.

I usually get to a place in my thinking that says "maybe Stan is just overeacting", then around announcement time I think "maybe it won't be quite as bad as Stan says", culminating in "Holy Fu*k! It's WORSE than Stan predicted!"

That's the way it's been lately, at least.

 

Yeah. Stan's a good barometer, err, Dazometer.

LOL He's just being contrary. He can't prove it wasn't said any better then I can prove it was. But as I have shown, whether it was said or not, the present facts speak for themselves. C8.5 is a complete departure from the upgrade path. I don't need any more proof then that. The burden of proof to the contrary is now on him.

All it would take is a DAZ_ to come on here and say there will be a full upgrade path from C8 to C9. But we already know DAZ has dropped the upgrade paths in carrara. So how can I be wrong? As I said, there wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9 because there is no upgrade path from C8 to C8.5. More over there wont be an upgrade path from C8.5 to C9 ether.

Like the old joke "denial isn't just a river in egypt".

As I have said and keep reminding people, my assumptions of what DAZ is going to do has been right 16 out of 19 times, I'd bet on those sort of odds any time. Who wouldn't?

And I wont even argue I am not a reactionary. I feel it, I let it go, me bottling it up is a bad thing. Yes I have embaresed myself on more then one ocasion, I often misunderstand. But I'd rather let it go, rant and be embaresingly wrong, then bottle it up and end up with bleeding ulcers again.

What difference does it make if there are two SKUs - one for the full version and one for the upgrade available only to previous owners - or a single SKU - with one price for new buyers and a different, discounted price for owners of the previous version?

Aparently most people that are requesting refunds; full or for pricing difference issues, is requesting cash, not DAZ vouchers. That speaks volumes.

And of coarse DAZ is saying be patient, thye are processing tickets as fast as they can. Bets on how many people don't get a refund because DAZ didn't get to their ticket in 30 days? Ya, that one is a stratch, I'll admit it. But then I find it hard to believe DAZ has made enough sales of C8.5 to have to spend hours day after day to get all the refunds procesed. Unless everyone that bought it wants a refund. Even then I still don't see it taking more then a couple of days. But then I don't know, might take 3-4 hours to process each one. {which is actually kind of sad in it own right}.

But that is one of those things that just mystifies me. Why would any one pay for something when they can plainly see the price is wrong I just don't get it.

"The current upgrade path to Carrara 8.5 is from any version of Carrara. That does not mean that will be the only price structure, though I wouldn’t expect it to get cheaper than it currently is." DAZ_Spooky

Read as don't be in a big hurry to grab this "bargain" as it wont be the only time to get C8.5 at $85.50.

But hey, lets look on the bright side, I'm sure this will be the best in carrara sales  since DAZ bought it. And why not? Any one that has any version of carrara can get the big discount whether they bought it or got it free in a magazine. So even though I got C5 at full price; no dicounts, and have been buying upgrades from DAZ since, some one that got C6 free in a  magazine can get it for the same discounts I can. 

That just sounds wrong to me, but hey, this is the new DAZ. Being a customer for 7-8 years means nothing. The only customer that counts is the one buying something today.

Quote - What difference does it make if there are two SKUs - one for the full version and one for the upgrade available only to previous owners - or a single SKU - with one price for new buyers and a different, discounted price for owners of the previous version?

I makes the previous owners, especially C8.1 owners feel far less appreciated.

So even though I bought C5 at full price and have been paying for the upgrades right along, I am some how no more valued as a customer then some one that got C6 free in a magazine. Makes me feel quite belittled as a DAZ customer.

Oh you mean the end of the upgrade path. I just think the situation bites. Seriously. DAZ has been promising us Carraraest a .5 update for a nominal fee for 2 year, this just throws those promises out the window. So why should I believe anything DAZ tells me now? I'm not there and apparently no one else will try to get DAZ to honor their word.

There is no update, or even an upgrade, it's me having to rebuy carrara. The % off is just DAZ smoke and mirrors.

Hey Richard, I miss you and those regular emails about pulled posts lol

Yeah, doing away with an upgrade path and putting everybody on the same level (whether they purchased or got it free) just bites. Why stay current with a software if you have to pay full price no matter what?

And...well, I had more, but I'm just too cranky to risk it. :)

Quote - LOL He's just being contrary. He can't prove it wasn't said any better then I can prove it was. But as I have shown, whether it was said or not, the present facts speak for themselves. C8.5 is a complete departure from the upgrade path. I don't need any more proof then that. The burden of proof to the contrary is now on him.

All it would take is a DAZ_ to come on here and say there will be a full upgrade path from C8 to C9. But we already know DAZ has dropped the upgrade paths in carrara. So how can I be wrong? As I said, there wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9 because there is no upgrade path from C8 to C8.5. More over there wont be an upgrade path from C8.5 to C9 ether.

Like the old joke "denial isn't just a river in egypt".

As I have said and keep reminding people, my assumptions of what DAZ is going to do has been right 16 out of 19 times, I'd bet on those sort of odds any time. Who wouldn't?

And I wont even argue I am not a reactionary. I feel it, I let it go, me bottling it up is a bad thing. Yes I have embaresed myself on more then one ocasion, I often misunderstand. But I'd rather let it go, rant and be embaresingly wrong, then bottle it up and end up with bleeding ulcers again.

"We" you and the Mouse in your pocket? I said it never happened, because I know I never made any such post. I am the alleged source of your "leak." The only reason I posted in this thread at all is because you are claiming I said something I never did. 

And as far as departure from upgrade paths, I will remind you of the Bryce 6 release. It also departed from the standard upgrade paths at launch, there was no upgrade price at all, that did not mean anything for the future.

Further the upgrade path for Carrara has never been set in stone. For a while you could only upgrade from one version back, regardless of where you acquired it, to include from a cover disk, at other times it was any other version, and yet other times it was other versions with a graduated rate.

Trying to draw conclusions of what DAZ3D might do in terms of pricing in the future based on one example, as everyone here knows, is not only a waste of time, but will almost never give you the correct answer. 

Oh, and getting a free cover disk, does not qualify you for the current upgrade to 8.5, go back and read the qualifications, you had to purchase a copy of Carrara from DAZ3D.

Sorry to disrupt your rant with the truth, but you said if someone with a DAZ_ in front of their name corrected you, you would accept it. I may not have that on this forum, this is Renderosity after all, but it is rather easy to verify that I do have one. Look at your DAZ Studio or Carrara 8.5 about screens. 

Nice to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak, but you could have said all this earlier instead of just calling Stan a liar.

Now, back to 8.5.

It does seem to be a less than stellar introduction. I read problems with content management, the mipmapping problem, the serial number problem and the pricing problem to name a few. I also read where loading more than one Genesis figure in a scene really slows things to a crawl. Even if the price was right, that's enough to make me pause.

Didn't this software have a 2 year beta test period?

Quote - Nice to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak, but you could have said all this earlier instead of just calling Stan a liar.

I chose to believe he was ticked and mistaken and I had no intention of pushing until he doubled down on it. And it doesn't change the fact that he did make it up. 

Ok, I'll have to conceed I miss read it read it. Just being magnamus, because I can't possably prove other wise now can I? {tit for tat}

I will point yet again to the promised .5 update at a nominal fee.  $285 is an olympian leep above nominal. So DAZ lied to us; us being pretty much every carrara owner, for 2 years. And we aren't suposed to be upset by that?

So DAZ's words are empty, meaningless, and carry no weight. But that is not news to anyone that has been with DAZ for a while. People wonder why no one from DAZ says much, the answer is easy, it's hard to talk when you can't keep your feet out of your mouth.

Considering I based my assumtions of the pricing of the C8.5 on past DAZ price points, I will have to agree. I way, way, way undersetimated it in even my worst most pesemistic esimations. So I may be wrong on my estimations for C9. But not in a good way.

What "we"?

And don't even start with me on truth. DAZ doesn't even know the meaning of the word. More over truth and fact are quite often 2 vastly different things.

And I will maintane the % off are just DAZ smoke and mirror to convince people that $285 is a good price for a .5 update. I have complete comfidence we wont see C9 for any less then $800; and I don't mean $799.95, or after several ?% discounts. Please, by all means prove me wrong.

In fact this carrara pricing thing is a text book example of smoke and mirrors.

Thing is with all my rants, and wild assumptions I'm really hoping DAZ will prove me wrong, but far too often DAZ proves me right.

Did I not say the reason DAZ was holding off giving out the price of the .5 update was because the price was outragious, was I wrong?

If you want to bring other apps in to it, why not. Why isn't carrara free like studio? Why are we paying $285 for something that amounts to little more then Genesis and DUF/DSON compatability, when it is free in studio.

If carrara development is just that much more costly then studios where is the proof of this? When was the last time DAZ; not the previous devs, not some shoe horned in feature by another company, but DAZ put a major feature in carrara?

And don't say DSON/DUF or genesis. Tweaks and light icons are hardly worth $285.

You know what is real funny. You say you didn't write it, but I don't see you denying it as a fact. And I am well aware nothing DAZ says is carved in stone. The price of the .5 update proves that.

The fact is there wont be an upgrade path from C8 to C9. There also wont be an upgrade path from C8.5 to C9. What there will be is a discount for previuos purchesers on rebuying carrara. Much like the example that has just been set. The real question is how little of a % discount will C8 owners get as compared to C8.5 owners.

You know what that means right? Whether you said it or not is irrelevent, I am still right.

Go ahead, please, prove me wrong. Really, I want DAZ to prove me wrong. So far DAZ has done little more then reinforce my pesimisiam.

Hi Man, it's obvious that something was mis read - easy to do! I do it all the time.

bhoins, thanks for taking the time to make it clearer.

Oh, so Stan misread it? Okay.

Well, considering I do that from time to time too, guess that means Stan isn't some kind of terminator robot sent to kill us all.

That still doesn't negate the fact that $85 is NOT negligible.

2 weeks is NOT a lot of time to come up with the NOT negligible $85.

Quote - Hi Man, it's obvious that something was mis read - easy to do! I do it all the time.

bhoins, thanks for taking the time to make it clearer.

I also have been known to misread, especially misinterpret, things.

And yes, clear and honest communication is always appreciated.

Quote - Oh, so Stan misread it? Okay.

Well, considering I do that from time to time too, guess that means Stan isn't some kind of terminator robot sent to kill us all.

That still doesn't negate the fact that $85 is NOT negligible.

2 weeks is NOT a lot of time to come up with the NOT negligible $85.

Especially, if I understand it right, you have to pay 25 to get that 85 (if you're not already in the PC). If I'd known before hand it wouldn't be such a sore spot. I was expecting maybe 50 bucks. 85 plus 25 was and still is a bit of a shock. Definitely not 'nominal'.

Right, if you aren't in the Pclub it makes that price $109.

And interesting that some one was on fast when I miss quoted spooky, but hasn't tryed to argue about the facts I presented or assumtions I made based on them; maybe I should say truths rather then facts.

 

Look at it this way DAZ has succeeded in adding a bunch of new people to the Pclub that will of coarse buy content because of the discount {momoney}. They have succeeded in convincing people the a .5 update is worth $285 by throwing up some smoke and mirrors discounts to obscure this fact {momoney} And moved a bunch of people up from older version of carrara to the new version with Genesi {momoney}. DAZ wins out all the way around, off the back of us carrarest. 

Hey DAZ why not try to charge Studio users for Studio again, didn't work last time, but I'm sure you can make it work this time. Easy enough just put a 399.95 price tag on it, offer 2 or 3 ?% discounts on it and I'm sure people will jump up to pay for that free app this time. {momoney} Maybe if you included some two year old content for an out dated figure they'd just jump on it.

Or better yet, pull a Studio and after charging people for C8.5 change your mind and make it free. It's not like you wont make it up this winter when you charge everyone $800 for C9, oh wait, that will just be C8.1 owners, C8.5 owners will get 50% off, maybe.

3 easy ways to kill an app. Don't fix bugs, don't add modern features, over charge you customers. Dead app, now go write it off on your taxes.

And let's not forget that after the sale is over, the price for the Carrrara point update will be $549 and some change.

There's that 'nomimal' fee again.

Did someone redefine the word nominal while I wasn't looking?

DAZ has probably made all the sales off it it's going to. Propably did before last week was out.

But I don't think that is right. I beleve for C8.1 owners it would still be $285. So once the intro sales are over I think; at least I hope, the price would be $199.50 if you're in the Pclub. Which was the upgrade cost for C7-C8.

Remeber right now there is a bonus 10% or 40% discount for C8.5 if you are in the Pclub.

That is what makes this a "gun to your head" sale. Buy it now while the sale is on because once it is off the best you can hope for is $200... for a .5 update.

If I'm wrong please explain how that doesn't make a bad situation even worse. Tell me how that wont completely kill carrara sales once the super special limted time sale is over.

But this being DAZ it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it goes up to full price for everyone; even C8.1 owners, once the sale is over.

Still waiting for a DAZ_ to grow a pair and come on  to confirm or deny if after the Sale C8.5 goes up to full price; $549.95, for everyone; including C8.1 owners.

SALE EXTENDED!

According to the thread over at Daz, the sale is supposedly extended. Typical for DAz, the date isn't clearly marked anywhere (not that I could find).

I'm glad the sale is extended. I don't agree the price should be so high for this "upgrade" but since I do this professionally, at some point I'm going to need to move to more technologically advanced models. 

I don't want to miss out on a lower cost upgrade path.

Quote - SALE EXTENDED!

According to the thread over at Daz, the sale is supposedly extended. Typical for DAz, the date isn't clearly marked anywhere (not that I could find).

I'm glad the sale is extended. I don't agree the price should be so high for this "upgrade" but since I do this professionally, at some point I'm going to need to move to more technologically advanced models. 

I don't want to miss out on a lower cost upgrade path.

 

I have it installed but I am too scared to use it till the blood letting ends :)

best to start a new project with it than work on an old one

? cheers! :)

 

Quote - > Quote - SALE EXTENDED!

According to the thread over at Daz, the sale is supposedly extended. Typical for DAz, the date isn't clearly marked anywhere (not that I could find).

I'm glad the sale is extended. I don't agree the price should be so high for this "upgrade" but since I do this professionally, at some point I'm going to need to move to more technologically advanced models. 

I don't want to miss out on a lower cost upgrade path.

 

I have it installed but I am too scared to use it till the blood letting ends :)

best to start a new project with it than work on an old one

? cheers! :)

 

Blood letting. Heh, heh. I like that. :)

Quote -  I have it installed but I am too scared to use it till the blood letting ends :) best to start a new project with it than work on an old one

? cheers! :)

If history is any indicator, it will be quite some time before the blood letting ends.

Don't pick at the scabs, it'll never heal. :)

hehe :)

ahh I installed the first beta when it came out and it immediatley screwed my runtime bigtime

that wasn't the main problem I guess

the main problem was that EVEN WHEN THEY KNEW

DAZ didn't tell anyone that it would screw their runtime, didn't give out a big warning sign which  you would expect that they would do in a moral sense. They were happy to let users muddle their runtime and have them go through the process of fixing it up.

 I hate having my time wasted. Obviously DAZ thinks their time is more valuable than mine and the other Carrara users. Geeze.....

So after that I don't trust DAZ. I would rather trust DAZ as I trust other companies that I spend money with. But unfortunately the expression once bitten twice shy applies aptly in this case.

So the bloodletting unfortunately is the users' blood.....

I remember that runtime disaster. Still gives me the shivers to think about it. Yes, trust is in short supply where DAZ the company is concerned.

And the DAZ mods deleating everything antiDAZ is how they maintain newbies trust.

It's buyer beware because we can't forwarn them.

"Soylent green is people!"

Sorry, it just popped into my head.

 

Wow, 8.5 is out!  I almost thought Carrara had been neglected completely by DAZ a year ago. Carrara was much better than Poser or comparable programs when Carrara 7.0 or 8.0 came out. With Poser 9 / 2012, Poser took over, and nowadays, blender offers GPU based rendering of strand hair, and better SSS, for free.

 

So the upgrade price is irrelevant for me anyway (and yes, I also remember promises about a nominal upgrade free suggesting something in the range of 20..40$, when development of 8.5 was started).

I agree with posts above, that DAZ was a different company 3 years ago.

Best regards,

   Michael

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a bit of a neanderthal. Loud and in your face puts me in to that fight or flight mode. So I hate the none stop in your face sales at DAZ at a visceral level. They make me ether want to run, or want to beat the L out of someone. They certainly don't make me want to buy.

Now if you notice I have said nothing bad about carrara. The tweaks and updates are nice.

I love the new light icons, takes the guess work out what lights are where in a scene. Too bad some light quality tweaks didn't come with them. But the one thing wrong with them; the icons, is the tube light diameter doesn't change. So I end up with over head lights that look like oil drums hanging there.

The tweaks to the bullet physics had me going for days. I couldn't begin to guess how many hours I spent playing with soft cloth. Some thing that would be very useful is a drape freeze, so the draping could be calculated by the piece not the entire scene. Something that helps is to drape each piece seperately the export the drape piece as a .obj then reimport and align.

Note: did they fix the "pressure" in the soft body settings? To test this use 2 converted to vertex primative spheres, one with low pressuer one with high, the high one should bounce like a beach ball; with the expected squash deforming before bounce back. Other wise they will hit the floor like empty grape skins.

But most all the testing I did was with genesis. I'll give Genesis a C in carrara; A- in Studio. And Autofit a D. I've read a workaround for poke through in the DAZ carrara forum. But if modeling in the assembly room worked right that would make it much easier. I think the biggest issue with autofit in Carrara is the built in mil4 settings. Mil3 clothes usually convert fine; but tend to pose poorly.

You know the frugel me loves the concept of autofit, just look at all the $ I spent on Xdresser. But it fails too often to be depended on.

Thing is DAZ is losing money on me all the way around. I was ready to buy the mil4 morphs for genesi to see if that would make autofit work better. But that, out now as well as the sales of poses, skins, and creature morphs. I like working with genesis when the clothes fit. But I have already spent money on genesis and not seeing DAZ doing anything with it for 2 years makes me wonder why. Just another reason that genesis compatability doesn't add value to the .5 update for me.

Right now I can't seem to find the known issues list but if I recall correctly; and if I don't I'm sure some one will correct me, but I thought it said it wasn't compatable with G2F. You know the one all the new stuff is for, the latest and not yet out dated figure. Explains why there is no G2F items with the update.

On a sour note, what if one of the "new features" in C9 is G2F/M compatability?

Oh well, us carraraests just love leftovers and handmedowns, we can do so much with it.

I have to wonder just what did DAZ fix in the C8.5 beta? I mean so far I have read a gripe from some one on about every issue I had with the .5 beta the first month it was out. Seems anything that was fixed over the coarse of the beta was Geneis related.

But hey, the person that worked with C8.5 for two years isn't at all needed on the DAZ forum. I see posts all the time from people wondering about this, having isues with that, and starting at 0 doing things I worked with extensivly in the beta.

I think that DAZ should invite me back to the forum, give me a copy of C8.5 for the unwarented baning, give me the forum title of "doom sayer" and leave me and my posts alone.

And C9 will have full Terragen quality, atmospherics, high quality dynaimics; including soft body figures, and real time playback of aniamtions in the assembly room. Add to that finally learning what a looped animation is.

Well if you're going to dream, dream big

DAZ should know by now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnxLinrHzKk "cause you that I can"

Gotta love those big dreams. :)

Quote - Gotta love those big dreams. :)

 

Stan's dreams are DAZ's nightmares.

LOL!

Quote - > Quote - Gotta love those big dreams. :)

 

Stan's dreams are DAZ's nightmares.

LOL!

DAZ was my nightmare for a while, but I woke up. ;)

I use C8.1 daily and for hours. No rain for a few weeks means no yard to mow or floowbeds to weed. Meaning not a lot to do through the day.

I got wrapped up; mildly obcesed, with this scene. Started as a 50's style horror, but has turned to to seeing how many mil 4 figures and how many surface replicators I can have in a scene before carrara chokes on it. So far as long as I don't have all the replicator or all the people visable at the same time it's still easy to work. 

9 surface replicators. 5 with Lisa's plants, 2 with carrara trees, one with ken's birds and one with dragonflys; althought the dragonflys don't really show.

There's also 9 mil4 figures, 4 V4 and 5 M4, may add 2 more.

Now just what does that have to do with C8.5? The above is usually how I work on a scene. I'll get a bit obcessed with it till it gets boring; about built and going to hidef renders. But with C8.5 I never did that, it choked on this, errored out on that, this didn't work any more, that didn't work right, so in no short order I was too frustrated to work on a scene.

Going back to C8.1 was a breath of fresh air after working with C8.5 for 2 years. The biggest issue with C8.5 was genesis and autofit. You know, the big thing in C8.5 which is somehow suposed to make it worth $285.

If genesis and autofit was a plugin for C8.5 I wouldn't waste the money on it. It doesn't work well enough to gain any real advantage using it. Yes I miss how well G1 looked posed; if it didn't get wierd in the posing, everytime I pose a mil4 figure and get colapsed elbows; bent straw effect. Now genesis may bit a bit of an issue, but the big issue is auto"don't"fit.

We all know dresses are fairly well usless in autofit. Minishirts are fin but once a dress hits the knees autofit just screws it up. And I have a nice wardrobe of perido clothes for V4 that autofit mangels.

Shoes? G1 might as well run around barefoot; and just because I am all the time, doesn't mean I want my characters to be. Autofit just screws up shoes making them worse then useless in a scene. Yes you can fix them, but it take some time and effort.

But my top issue is with autofit's poke through. Backs out in the T pose and butts/hips out in most poses. And what is real funny is I have far more issues with mil4 clothes; what autofit is set by default to work with, then mil3 clothes; I bought the iconic shapes for G1 so I could use mil3 clothes. I have been tempted to buy the mil4 morphs for geneis to see if it fixes the issue. I fully beleive it would.

It seems part of the new DAZ marketing plan is to sell workarounds rather then fix issues. So I have no doubt buying the mil4 morphs for G1 will fix the issue with autofit. As in why buy the mil4 morphs for G1 when I don't need them to use autofit. Because you need them for autofit to work right with mil4 clothes. There is no profit in fixing autofit, the profit is in selling you the mil4 morphs for G1  to get sutofit to work right with mil4 clothes.

Lets look at some facts. It's well established G1 is out of production; and I'll keep saying that till it's verified or I'm proven wrong. So lets look at autofit. Out side of some bug fixs I may not be aware of, autofit hasn't changed since release 2 years ago. We; or at least I, have been waiting for the finished product. The one with the full selection when setting up. The one with the loose blouse setting, or extra baggy pants, the long dress, the common shoe, and so on.

Just because I am sure there are people that don't see the fun I have. see top; it's big. Oops, that hill side is suposed to have carrara trees

Workarounds are products. DAZ is all about products/content. Why waste money fixing known issues, when someone will come up with a product that fixes it for them. TADA! More product for DAZ to sell to the unsuspecting hobbiest.

The more I read about 8.5 issues over at the DAZ forums, the more I'm glad I didn't take the plunge.

Most of the "issues" I have read on the DAZ forum have been about DIM/CMS and issues intalling content.

But I'm not seeing to many questions about getting started in carrara. Makes me wonder considering all the "suposed" new people getting it. I mean I'm not seeing any of the sort of posts I woud expect from people new to carrara. And I saw a lot of new names in the stickied carrara release announcements.

So just what are all those people new to carrara doing with it?

Come to think of it, you're right. I haven't seen very much in the way of "How do I do this?" sort of posts. I do see many new names, but not very many newbie questions.

Even if they were all users of other software before, you'd think they'd still be asking questions. I mean, the manual isn't THAT good.

I've also noticed that the stickied announcement of a new version has slowed to a crawl with only a post or two in the last several days. Either DAZ is deleting tons of posts or interest has waned. I really expected more action even now, but the buzz has apparently stopped.

Stopped? More like stomped. 

You know anything about 3 card monte? There is usually an acomplice{shill} in the crowd that will bet and win just to ge the crowd stirred  up. This has been carried in to marketing. Look at all those "demos" at the mall. If some one steps up, just loves the item, and seems to ask just the right questions, then buys the product, they were a plant.

Would I put it above DAZ to do something similar? Hell, I don't put anything past DAZ any more.

None the less, even if people had C6, 7, or 8, they would still have questions about the new "features" in C8.5. I don't see many quetions about those ether. Well one or two, and I could have helped; Having put C8.5 through my work flow for two years. And you have seen the few gripes I had about it.

I think the issues are many surounding it. Starting with the overly long beta, and running right through to the way over priced final release. 

Along the way we got some nice tweaks, a few very useful changes, but have have lost some of the ease of functionality.

I would have liked to retain the choice of morphs by catigory or search. I hate search, you know I can't spell worth a flip, and half the time I don't know the name of the morph I am looking for.

Hate that they moved the 0 pose 0 morph buttons. I know they needed to be change for the new options, but they could just as easily been dropdowns in the general tab as to actually move them to a different place and catigory.

When I got Dawn I learned quick that the autofit needs an off button.

I want DS tools and the ability to save out as a DUF from carrara. I don't need the DUF out, but the tools would be most welcome. Seriously if you are going to charge me for the ability to use content at least give me the ability to work on it.

I know it sounds bad, but at the top of my list for C9 is FRONT SCALE. This has been a bain of carrara's for me for quite some time. I get a crick in my neck from sloutching in to read the type. I have it set to the largest easy to read common font, it helps, but.....

My second one still has nothing to do with new features. I want to see some spit and polish, make things work smoothly, fix a lot of odds and ends little annoying bugs. And more feature tweaks/improvements. Ya, so you can do a tripple back flip, in the right shoes, wareing the right clothes, when you feel good, and there wind is blowing northeast with an updraft.

And I'm not worried about new features, my list hasen't changed for 3 builds now

 

Never liked the way 8.5 listed morphs either. I know it seems like such a little thing, but it turned me right off.

And about content. I've seen a few folks complaining that they can't modify clothing in the model room for Genesis. That sucks.

And I agree about the font scale. I have bifocals. If I sit at my computer long enough my neck starts to talk back.

And the biggest thing(s) for me would be some dynamic hair and SSS improvements. I'd really like for dynamic hair to show up in the separate render passes. I'm always having to erase bits of my AO passes because the hair doesn't show up.

The morphs list and inability to model clothes that have gone through autofit in the assembly room, were complained about early on.

DAZ's responce to our grips about the morphs list and moving the figure 0ing were DAZ's typical responce

Yes, we have wanted SSS mapping for a while, still waiting. And hair worked best when it was first released.

Quote - The morphs list and inability to model clothes that have gone through autofit in the assembly room, were complained about early on.

DAZ's responce to our grips about the morphs list and moving the figure 0ing were DAZ's typical responce

Yes, we have wanted SSS mapping for a while, still waiting. And hair worked best when it was first released.

Yeah, I think I remember the DAZ response: "We know what's best" and "You'll love it."

And at the risk of repeating myself, I'd really love better SSS in Carrara.

Wouldn't it be nice if DAZ would at least try to give us what we want in carrara. And do it with out braking several other features.

So far DAZ has done a better job of braking preexisting features then introducing new ones. That is why I think C9 should be about fixing existing features and updating outdated features. Maybe if DAZ released a version of carrara with out new features, we could get a new version where they haven't borked old features.

Sounds good to me.

Some one should tell Dell to read the forum before getting C8.5. He is on a mac and how well C8.5 works on a mac is dependent on which build you are running.

Could some one tell Dartanbeck there wont be a follow up C8.5 with any fixes. DAZ does not work that way now. If it is broke, it will be broke till C9, if it is fixed then.

But don't worry, I'm sure DAZ will be quite happy to sell you workarounds for the issues. That just seems to be the way DAZ does things now, release it broke, sell you a work around later.

It looks like Dell has already bit the bullet and bought 8.5.

It also looks like Dart was about to blow a gasket about autofit not working. It also looks like he may have found a selection of hoops to jump through that might work for some, but apparently not all folks experiencing the autofit blues.

Dart's fix seems to show that you still need Studio for things to work properly in Carrara. I thought DAZ said you wouldn't need Studio for Genesis, et al. to work in Carrara...of did I just dream that?

And apparently, there are a whole host of issues cropping up the longer folks use the new 8.5.

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/28858/

Post deleted due to what the hell is the point?

On a more importent note can anyone reach 3DAGE? I'm really worried about him.

Quote - Post deleted due to what the hell is the point?

On a more importent note can anyone reach 3DAGE? I'm really worried about him.

Your post deleted? Here at Rendo?

I PM'd Andy over at Daz, but that was a while ago and haven't heard from him at all.

No I deleted it after an hour of working on it. I get sort of dispondent at times. Some times it seems such a waste trying to get DAZ to improve, fix things, and not be so incompatent.

My father was a marine corp drill instructor, I wasn't rased so much as drilled. What I learned was the only way to fix a problem is to stay at it till it's fixed. Dropping a bug report then going on your merry way does not solve issues. Especially when dealing with DAZ. You have to be up in DAZ's face constently not only to get them to fix something, but to even to get them to aknowledge there is an issue.

As in DAZ wont acknowledge the probablity that G1 is out of production. I think we have enough lacking in evedince of it being worked on to prove this. But at DAZ mods will pull a post rather then argue that it is, or verify it isn't. Proof DAZ depends on keeping customers ignorent. 

A couple of things DAZ hasn't realized yet is, most people that are in to genesis and Studio have already bought most of the G1 content and have moved on to G2F; and impatiently waiting for G2M. And the over pricing of C8.5 cost them secondary sales of G1 content to carraraests just getting in to genesis.

DAZ is so busy counting the bit of money they made off the over pricing of C8.5, they missing out on a lot of sales to carraraests outfitting a new figure. I spent $70 on morphs to use on G1 just for the C8.5 beta. I still wanted the mil4 shapes and creature creator morphs. No use to me now. I wanted to get the similar morphs for G2F, ain't happening now. So for me DAZ over priced them selves right out of a better profit. DAZ would have made more off me outfiting G1 and G2F, then the profit they would have made off me buying the over priced C8.5.

I'm really worried about Andy, I sincerly hope nothing tragic has happened.

oops 

Quote - I'm really worried about Andy, I sincerly hope nothing tragic has happened.

I'm kind of hoping that real life has reared its ugly head. I think that a bout of RL is what caused him to go missing for a while about a year ago or so (if I remember right).

That or maybe he's just enjoying time a way from JM.

There was someone on the DAZ forum who managed to get in touch with him last time (I think), but I can't remember who it was.

I'm with you though in hoping he's all right.

OK, now DAZ is running a special where you can get the new Carrara 8.5 for $89.95 and they're giving you a free quarterly Platinum Club membership to go with it. So, now you don't have to pay the $24 and change to join the platinum club so you can get 8.5 for 87.

So, if I was one of those folks who joined the platinum club for 25 so I could get the 8.5 update for 87 I'd be asking for some money back about now.

I wonder if I wait long enough DAZ will give me Carrara 8.5 for free if I join the platinum club for 25 bucks?

As I said, my price point is $50.

Quote - OK, now DAZ is running a special where you can get the new Carrara 8.5 for $89.95 and they're giving you a free quarterly Platinum Club membership to go with it. So, now you don't have to pay the $24 and change to join the platinum club so you can get 8.5 for 87.

So, if I was one of those folks who joined the platinum club for 25 so I could get the 8.5 update for 87 I'd be asking for some money back about now.

I wonder if I wait long enough DAZ will give me Carrara 8.5 for free if I join the platinum club for 25 bucks?

 

amazing, you think Daz would know better, it;s like I bought stuff in the pa sale for 30 percent off then a weel later it's all 50 percent off, pity I'm too lazt to ask for a refund but what kinda brains thought that up?

Quote - OK, now DAZ is running a special where you can get the new Carrara 8.5 for $89.95 and they're giving you a free quarterly Platinum Club membership to go with it. So, now you don't have to pay the $24 and change to join the platinum club so you can get 8.5 for 87.

So, if I was one of those folks who joined the platinum club for 25 so I could get the 8.5 update for 87 I'd be asking for some money back about now.

I wonder if I wait long enough DAZ will give me Carrara 8.5 for free if I join the platinum club for 25 bucks?

 

Jeebus, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the folks who run DAZ don't actually run DAZ and have just told everyone 'well, do whatever you think might work for today'.  There just doesn't seem to be any logical plan going on, so it feels like the rules are constantly changing, the goalposts are constantly being moved, and who knows what tomorrow might bring?. 

hope you guys are listening daz has screwed up again

carrara pricing 29 bucks?

 

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/29219/

 

be very quick

Headwax beat me to it.  Stan, this is well below your price point as you mentioned.  Grab quick!  This actually would be what I would consider a 'nominal' fee level :)

Wonder if it's an error that they will correct tomorrow morning when they are back in the office?

I would figure it's an error.  Go for it quickly!

yes I considered 30 bucks a fair price (without all the addon m5 stuff) - so this is close.

Well the error has aparently been corrected and all posts refering to it are gone. That is a dead link headwax.

I'm still getting the same deal at check out that has been there since day 1 of the release. The 85.50 after the Pclub discount. The price out for me hasn't changed since the start of this.

And yes, at $30 I'd have jumped on it and been happy about it; because I know what the bugs are

Doesn't seem DAZ can get the price right and keep it that way through check out. Way to run a busness, oops left out the "i".

Yep, appears the deal is gone. I was ready to jump on that one. Link leads no where. Oh, well.

Ya, that bites, with Howies scenes on sale if I had gotten carrara at $30, I could have gotten country lane or aurboretum.

man, I'm watching the price of items change while looking at them. Was looking at Howies scenes and saw country lane for 50% off, clicked on it, went in my cart at 30% off, jumped back to the store, 30% off

Oh no, pricing roulette doesn't effect sales

Whatching the random pricing kind of makes a person gun shy, like you want to dodge the bullet all together.

Same thing happened to me. I left frustrated. Actually considered purchasing a couple of things, but not when DAZ can't make up its mind how much they're going to charge me.

I picked Carrara up thanks to that glitch! Now I just have to work out how to use it and what shiny things I need to buy. I've noticed that the glitches usually appear in the morning UK time and are gone by lunchtime.

Well I've logged out, cleared cookies and logged back in a few times, I am still seeing the origenal price on carrara. I mean it's not going to thiss new sale price or 89 and free Pclub.

At this point I think DAZ could screw up a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich.

I really would not want to see what DAZ does to a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich. That would just be too much.

Funny. Ether I am the only one not getting then new sale price for C8.5 to come up at check out. Or no one is buying carrara 8.5.

I base this on seeing no new posts about the screwed up price. I may give my other issues with DAZ a rest and concentrate on this one. This one effects everyone that shops at DAZ and not just carraraests. It seems the price in store, the sale price the item should be, and the actual charge at check out tend to be 3 different prices.

I'm urging everyone to brake out that old calculator and check your discounts at check out. I'm not at all sure why DAZ can't seem to keep their pricing in order, but I suspect it's to take advantage of customer confusion. If the constent and consistent pricing issues were costing DAZ money they would have fixed it. I can only assume DAZ is making a profit off it so is not motivated to fix it; much like selling work arounds for app/content issues that need to be fixed.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, DAZ has learned how to make a profit off incompatence. And the truly sad part is people seem more then whiling to pay for this incompatence as long as they get it at a good discount. Or at least think they are.

Now it wont even let me put C8.5 in my cart, keeps telling me I can only buy one copy. I haven't bought it the first time yet.

I didn't buy anything from Howie or Tim Payne's stores during their sale because the DAZ prices were all over the place. Things were one price on the store page and another price (more expensive) on the product page.

I didn't even bother going through the checkout process so DAZ's wonderful cart system could possibly sort it all out.

I really want to support Carrara content creators, but DAZ's ineptitude just sucks the consumer life out of me.

I couldn't buy it right now if I wanted to. Keeps telling me I've already bought it when I try to put it in my cart.

I tried to get Carrara yesterday after reading about the glitch.

Wow, are those guys thorough about getting rid of the evidence. The link and all posts related to the Carrara price were gone when I got there.

I guess Daz doesn't realise that keeping the price low enough will help them move more units.

Now if only they could be this thorough in getting the bugs, glitches, etc out of Carrara then we'd be okay.

The thread in the commons forum that mentions the glitching is still there: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/29198/ that one was probably left because the main focus wasn't the glitch. Discussion of the glitch starts from post number 4.

Doesn't matter to me. Seems DAZ has put me on a complete shut out. I can't take part in anything carrara on DAZ, not even buy it.

But I bet JM is still there harasing people.

Boy, when DAZ bans someone, they really mean BANNED.

The last thread I read where JM was a participant he was playing all nice. He's trying to be a regular Carrara guy now, I guess. He apparently bought the thing and installed it. Asked some newb questions and was almost pleasant.

I thought the guy worked in 'the industry' since forever and was too good to even bother with the likes of us except to rub our noses in how pitifully unprofessional we all are compared him.

I think since some of the brighter Carrara lights are no longer there (the folks that called him to task) he feels that it's safe to come out of the woodwork.

I can't read anything he says without he word 'JERK' floating around in my head.

Quote - I can't read anything he says without he word 'JERK' floating around in my head.

Yeah. He asked a question or 2 that I knew the answer to, but after all my (very bad) dealings with JM, I decided to let someone else take it. I'm not sure if anyone came to the rescue, but it sure won't be me.

 

Quote - > Quote - I can't read anything he says without he word 'JERK' floating around in my head.

Yeah. He asked a question or 2 that I knew the answer to, but after all my (very bad) dealings with JM, I decided to let someone else take it. I'm not sure if anyone came to the rescue, but it sure won't be me.

 

Just had to smile at that one. It's so nice to know it's not just me. :)

Well as I have said, JM is the one and only person I have on an ignor list. Despite the attitude I'm actually a pretty easy going guy.

I'm still checking the price on C8.5. It never came up at that last sale price of $89 and a free Pclub for a quarter. I think DAZ's biggest issue now is inconsistent pricing. They just can't seem to have items come up at the advertised price most of the time. And this has got to be costing them sales.

I wanted to get Howies country road, but there was the advertised price, the pice in the store, and yet a different price at check out, so I didn't get it.

Persoanlly, as I have said, it's my opinion DAZ does this confusing pricing so they can over charge people with out them knowing. The only other; and more likely, explanation is pure ineptitude when it come to getting their pricing app to work right.

I wonder if DAZ realizes that over the past couple of years they have gotten a real bad rep for being inept. From not being able or whilling to fix issues, to the always going wrong pricing, to just plane bad marketing, DAZ has proved it's self to be a rather inept company.

in·ept adjective i-ˈnept: lacking skill or ability

: showing a lack of skill or ability : not done well

Inept is a good word for them.

I use it to model.  Once in a blue moon I do a render.   I'm sticking with version 7 -- DAZ would have to pay ME to "upgrade" now.  All they seem to be able to do is bloat the program and break what works.

 

It needs to go to another company.  DAZ can't even decide what kind of company they are, much less what they want to do with Carrara, and if I didn't know better I'd think they had only one programmer for the whole company and she's on part-time as well!

In a better world, they'd stage DAZStudio as the posing, animation, and render engine (optimized for pre-made content), Hexagon as the "create from scratch" engine, and Carrara between them as the "does all things and is priced accordingly" ap.  Except that Hex is buggy as hell and has never been supported, D/S has turned into a confusing mish-mash of micro-pricing and add-ons, and Carrara flounders; unable to spend the time the software needs, they try to keep it competitive by leaping blindly in the direction of every cool idea they think they can get a half-assed approximation to work long enough for Marketing to run off a promo image.

The one admission I will give them is that the two major platforms have also stumbled upon sell-the-flash-not-the-function and you can't turn around without running into a completely revamped OS that instantly becomes a must-have (despite breaking half of the functionality and the majority of the software built for the previous version).  So DAZ is forced to try to play catch-up to Apple and Microsoft when they could be working on more important things.

 

 

Yes.  I've been using the software since Ray Dream.  I was a regular contributor to three generations of the bug report system, and a regular at the DAZ forums, helping newbies with modeling and texture woes.

So DAZ changes the forum and deletes all my history, changes the bug reporter AGAIN and as far as I can tell deleted all my bugs, and if you say anything other than Mary Sunshine Larks in the Park around the forums, they delete your post.

I'm not waiting on them to straighten up any more.  I'm waiting on them to have a coup.  Maybe a completely new management might be able to start rebuilding trust.

Quote - I'm not waiting on them to straighten up any more.  I'm waiting on them to have a coup.  Maybe a completely new management might be able to start rebuilding trust.

We can only hope.

A month and it's over. That is just sad. DAZ has just done carrara wrong all the way around. From the lack luster marketing to jiggering it before release. I just seems quite apparent DAZ is trying to sink carrara. I can't come up with any other explanation.

The only thing I can assume is DAZ is purposly torpedoing carrara for a tax write off.

Carrara 8.5 came in with a whimper and went out with a sigh. Very sad.

I've been keeping up with the carrara forum. Seems quite apparent there wont be any fixes of the issues with the release version of 8.5; issues that weren't in the beta.

Till the nassesity of CMS is fixed/removed I wont be getting C8.5, if this continues in to C9 I will be done with carrara all together. DAZ trying to force it's DRM down my throat means I'm done with this.

Seems C8.1 will be my last purches of carrara.

Thanks for going out of your way to screw up a good thing DAZ. This is just yet another instence that proves you can't beleave a word DAZ_s tells you. They lie with frequent regularity.

Any one else remember being assurde we wouldn't need CMS or DIM to use content? And in C8.5 you do. How is that not being lied to?

8.1 may be my last go as well. I'm not at all optimistic that DAZ will change it's current stripes and make some meaningful, real improvements in Carrara for 9.

And yes, I do recall being told that CMS would not be required to use content.