I've seen a few threads where people are struggling to light complex exteriors/interiors and I think it would be nice to share some tips/tricks to make the whole thing easier and faster. I'll start.

Here we have a basic scene with one 'Sun' light and IDL. There are no textures for faster rendering and so that the issues don't get hidden under nice texturing. It has almost all the artifacts you run into with IDL (in all  cases open the pic in a new window to see full size, where applicable)

 

And these are the render settings.

Yes they aren't particularly high or optimized but they render fast (about 30-40s) We could pump them up to get rid of some of these artifacts (but not all) or disable IC altogether and do a really long render... but is there a better way ? Keep reading to find out :P

The first thing that comes to mind here is, "hey maybe the problem is that we are rendering our scene in the middle of nowhere. If we had a proper environment, the lighting would be much better..." So, here is the same render but with an envsphere (from BB.) The lighting is now better although very blue. BTW that's another common problem that arises because most 360 pics like this have huge skies and that turns everything blue-ish. But this is fixable by editing the pic or finding different ones. A bigger problem is that while the artifacts are less, they haven't gone entirely. There are also some new artifacts in a few places like those bright splotches at the small bump in the floor.

 

What else can we try ? Read on...

Interesting!

Quote - What else can we try ? Read on...

I've read 'on' 147 times and it still says on... 

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
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So what can we do to fix all this ? Well one interesting thing to note here is that direct light (the kind you get from traditional spot, point and infinite lights) is essentially artifact free. If you point one of these at a mesh and render you will mostly get a nice clean result. It's when light starts bouncing around that you run into problems. Is there any way we can use this to our advantage ? Well we can certainly try :)

Here is the original scene (without the envsphere) with a 'helper' light placed facing the opening in the scene. The light has low intensity (30%) a slight blue color and raytraced shadows with max blurriness. As can be seen most of the artifacts have vanished ! The reason for this is that in the original render, most of the light was bounced from IDL (which is artifact prone) but now most of the light is from direct lights (the Sun and the Helper)

 

 

And the same scene with the helper and the envsphere (with the saturation/value turned down a bit) :

Forgot to ask: will this be available as a .pdf for those of us who work from paper when we do tutorials?

Quote - Forgot to ask: will this be available as a .pdf for those of us who work from paper when we do tutorials?

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/print-pages-to-pdf/

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Yes, that was the plan :) I'll post more examples in the next few days (more complex, 'real world' ones) and try to answer any questions. After that i'll bundle it all into a PDF and make it available for download.

BB and I discussed all this some time ago.

 - raytrace bounces is too low, in your render settings rays are cut off after 5 bounces. Nature uses infinite bounces. Pump up the volume. Use the D3D Render Firefly script to discriminate between reflection bounces and IDL bounces.

 - the scene is not closed, but open at one side. This is a huge lighting leak. Increasing the bouncing will hardly help when you don't stop the leak. Just a far-away dome won't do, so build up the missing wall.

 - irradiance caching is too low, only 30% of the area is re-emitting light from calculations, the rest is guessed. Decent values for high end quality renders should be no less than 80, lower values are for testing purposes. Values over 90 are overkill and add more to the render time than to the quality. So does switching off the cashing completely.

 - IDL quality is too low. This parameter is to be used to limit the artifacts when you want decent results with relatively low irradiance caching settings. Having them both at a low value is asking for reduced quality results. It's in the manual.

 - and in addition: do not put direct lights which an (inverse) quadratic falloff too close to any surface, or you will face scattering artifacts (since the falloff formula will make the lighting levels too high close to the lights, and IDL makes the surfaces reflect that.)

 - plus: when the scene hosts a few small IDL light sources only you run the risk of splotchy shadows unless all rendering options (and render time!) are pumped up. Just do as photographers: use large softboxes instead. This is my general note: Poser is a virtual photo studio, so you have to light scenes as a photographer would do.

Hope I didn't spoil the fun of this thread too much. Sorry for that.

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Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

The missing wall is not a problem (leak) if you're modeling the lighting of a real outdoor seating area (think porch). In that case, the sky and environment will contribute far more than the missing wall would be contributing. The missing wall is a net addition when the env sphere is bright.

Re glowing couch back against wall - IDL reflection is wrong in Poser. Use D3D dialog to decrease IDL intensity to .65.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Wow guys, many thank to all, you are try to show to me (i'm a nerd with poser light) how to use light in my actual scene (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2877138&page=1#message_4129030)

I'll follow you very hard.

 

 

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

since I have the scene with all the textures, if you advise me step by step how I can proceed with post render effects much more accurate and realistic.

Build it together step by step

First problem.
The type of image for the env sphere
which picture you recommend?
Possibly with a link to download

Second problem

env sphere setting

third problem

Sun light settings

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Quote - - raytrace bounces is too low, in your render settings rays are cut off after 5 bounces. Nature uses infinite bounces. Pump up the volume. Use the D3D Render Firefly script to discriminate between reflection bounces and IDL bounces.

* - irradiance caching is too low, only 30% of the area is re-emitting light from calculations, the rest is guessed. Decent values for high end quality renders should be no less than 80, lower values are for testing purposes. Values over 90 are overkill and add more to the render time than to the quality. So does switching off the cashing completely.*

* - IDL quality is too low. This parameter is to be used to limit the artifacts when you want decent results with relatively low irradiance caching settings. Having them both at a low value is asking for reduced quality results. It's in the manual.*

 
If high render settings is the 'solution' you may as well use lux. The idea here is to see how far you can get with fast renders under ordinary settings. It's in the first post: "Yes they aren't particularly high or optimized but they render fast (about 30-40s) We could pump them up to get rid of some of these artifacts (but not all) or disable IC altogether and do a really long render... but is there a better way ?"

Quote - - and in addition: do not put direct lights which an (inverse) quadratic falloff too close to any surface, or you will face scattering artifacts (since the falloff formula will make the lighting levels too high close to the lights, and IDL makes the surfaces reflect that.)

'Scattering artifacts' are a direct result of people trying to push more light into dark scenes with super bright sources (500%, 700% etc) The problem is CG lighting doesn't always work like real world lighting, not in Poser anyway, so all you get is blown out areas near the light and dark areas everywhere else. There are better ways to do the same thing.

Quote - Hope I didn't spoil the fun of this thread too much. Sorry for that.

Not at all :)

Quote - Re glowing couch back against wall - IDL reflection is wrong in Poser. Use D3D dialog to decrease IDL intensity to .65.

I didn't know that. Could you elaborate on what the problem is ?

ref BB's note: closing the scene one way or another is essential to good IDL lighting. When the scene is meant to be a room with a wall left out in a sunny world, my suggestion is to bring back the wall (AND have the dome), perhaps an "invisible to camera" might be helpful for good shots. When the secen is meant to be an outside porch, don't do the wall as it's not there in real life either.

Actually, looking at an outside porch just didn't occur to me. That's not the scene, that's me :-)

For an outdoor IDL scene, all you need is a dome acting for cyan sky with enough clouds, and a white infinite direct light acting for sun, and supplying the specularity (as IDL will give diffuse light only). The best dome image is the one that is the best representation of the outdoor environment, it's that simple. For great skies, look into Richardfotos gallery. He's the best (IMHO).

About render settings: sometimes 5 sec for adjusted settings plus 30 min extra rendertime pay off against 2 hours elaborating on a shortcut. The max values are not the best, but just altering the settings might make the difference between mediocre and good enough. Then use small images to find out where it pays off to tweak on the large high quality results. Is my opinion.

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Quote - .... Richardfotos gallery. He's the best (IMHO).

 

Please, give us the link, thanks.

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

just http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=richardphotos (sorry, fotos with ph, English is not my first language) and then pick the sky photos you like, and be sure to have his consent in doing so.

Recent ones:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2502528

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2500735

and a zillion more

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Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Ok, may you suggest me setting for BB's dome ?

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Another question.

You suggested this thing:

Quote - use large softboxes instead

 

I tried to use this technique but the problem is that "large softboxes" are visible on every reflective surface and sometimes even in the eyes of the characters.

There is something that I do not know about "large softboxes" or is there a way to hide them?

Or may be there are "large softboxes" that emit light but are totally invisible on reflective surfaces?

Many thanks

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

tip 1: think as a photographer. You're outside, on a clear daylight, want to shoot the porch and you need more light allover the place. What kinds of extra light do you need, and where do you place them.

tip 2: create an array of low intensity spotlights, flaps open, soft raytraced high quality shadows. Sometimes I use 5 (1 in the middle, 4 in the corners parented to the middle one for easy handing), sometimes I need 9 (in a 3x3 setup).

little secret: direct lights do not turn up in reflections but in specularity only, and you can turn the specularity channel OFF for that light in the Material Room.

tip 3: in portrait photography, a softbox should be at least as large as the (part of the) model you want to shoot, and should have a distance to the model of about the diagonal size of the box = say 150% the height or width.

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Quote - tip 2: create an array of low intensity spotlights, flaps open, soft raytraced high quality shadows. Sometimes I use 5 (1 in the middle, 4 in the corners parented to the middle one for easy handing), sometimes I need 9 (in a 3x3 setup).

 

Parameter light example ?

start and end corners ?

 

thanks

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

For the 5-light setup I start each with: white light, 20% intensity (as 5x 20% = 100%), corners 0-160 as in "flaps open", specularity OFF (Mat Room) when you don't want the reflections, shadows OFF if you just need the light or: raytraced shadows at blur radius 20 and shadow samples 200, and no ambient occlusion when rendering in IDL.

Then I continue playing with falloff-types, falloff distances and intensity levels as real photographers are playing with their light knobs and meters.

Check my cameray/light/render tutorial starting at http://www.book.artbeeweb.nl/?p=3065

have fun.

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Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Thanks aRtBee

the trouble here is over the

couchs

 

I played with all the possible combinations, but the problem does not disappear.

that's why I asked you and to BB the settings for BB's dome and sun light.

I think the problem comes from external light

this is the render

I have made a test with M4, the same problem is over the M4 skin, but this is a future step.

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Quote - The missing wall is not a problem (leak) if you're modeling the lighting of a real outdoor seating area (think porch). In that case, the sky and environment will contribute far more than the missing wall would be contributing. The missing wall is a net addition when the env sphere is bright.

Re glowing couch back against wall - IDL reflection is wrong in Poser. Use D3D dialog to decrease IDL intensity to .65.

^^ This.

Smith Micro developers don't even use their own product or else they would of set the default IDL lower.  Hopefully poser ends up in the hands of a competent company in the future.

 

Quote - Thanks aRtBee

the trouble here is over the

couchs

 

I played with all the possible combinations, but the problem does not disappear.

that's why I asked you and to BB the settings for BB's dome and sun light.

I think the problem comes from external light

this is the render

I have made a test with M4, the same problem is over the M4 skin, but this is a future step.

 

1. Use one directional light with IDL at 6.

2. Add BB's EnvSphere.

3. Try another couch to see if the same problem exists, or any other object where two planes meet at 90 degrees.

4. Simplify the textures on the couch as much as possible.

5. Set the irradiance cach for IDL higher (70 or higher) and the irradiance caching for raytracing to 100.

I sort of rebuild the scene using simple untextured blocks, the EnvSphere with no image but 50% gray and a white 100% infinite light, raytrace shadow, standard quality. Your 5 bounces 30/30 IDL quality settings.

The point is, there is no setting of anything that reproduces your issue, the deep shadow stroke at the in-side of the block.

So the question is, if you reduce the scene to 3 walls, 1 roof, 1 ground plane, 1 object, 1 dome and 1 light, and no textures, is it still there? If so, tell us your settings or make the scene available. If not, then start adding elements till it re-occurs.

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Manu thanks asap i'll do this test.

 

Outside porch Three are a Lot offerte things,  i'll delete every material And do renders

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

okay. also please do some tests with decreased and increased setting for bounces. Then you'll see that this setting does have an enormous effet on the lighting levels. Its not  a matter of just quality vs render time, it's a really different image.

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Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

I will be away from your pc where I have Poser until Friday morning, meanwhile#### aRtBee  

, please, if you can give me the specifics of the room materials for objects that you used in your test

many thanks

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

all stuff default untextured. Diffuse white, 1 Specular white,1 and anything else black or 0 or nothing. I included the file.

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Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

didn't work, so I added .txt to the name.

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Mano thanks

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Outside 1

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Outside 2

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Here i'm aRtBee.

You can see 2 outside porch rendering so you can understand the entire scene.

I have used your materials, your light settings and dome settings.

But seems to me that the trouble on couch is still there.

So i don't think it's a material problem but general lighting problem.

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

hi xpdev

this is just one of those battles I like to win (from Poser, not from you). nice scene, by the way. yeah, I'm sure it's not in the materials as such, but materials do get in the way of interpreting the results, so "we can see clearly now".

It's something in the scene, in the lighting or in the interaction between them. Sometimes an object, in sight of at our back, is standing in the way somehow and generates a somewhat unexpected shadowing. That's wy I also suggested to make everything invisible, except for just 1 ground 1 roof 3 porch walls and 1 couch in the front. That's what I had in my test scene, and the extra shadow line did not show up.

When all material issues eliminated, and all object interferences are eliminated, and the issue is still there, then we're sure that it's the lighting interacting with the extremely simple porch setup. Than plan A. If the issue seems to be disappeared, then groups of objects can be made visible again until the issue re-appears, and in that way you can find the culprit.

plan A: try to find out to what extend the issue is a result of your render settings. First, increase the bounces (till max). Than increase IDL quality (till 80) then caching (till 80). All in steps, or just the max setting first to see if the issue is still there.

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

I'm building the scene.

But consider that what you see outside the porch is all in one props

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

> Quote - plan A: try to find out to what extend the issue is a result of your render settings. First, increase the bounces (till max). Than increase IDL quality (till 80) then caching (till 80). All in steps, or just the max setting first to see if the issue is still there.

 

This is the rendering result

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

This was done using your scenes (I have not changed anything) but just adding my couch.

The problem is still there.

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Look at this one rendering.

no couch, but 2 boxes one over the other...

 

same problem...

 

that's why i think the problem is the ligthing

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

I can reproduce the issue now. Now let's find out the why, and how-to-solve...

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Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

ok... waiting for you

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

In my opinion, IDL irradiance caching has issues and SM can't fix this or they would have by now. I am very frustrated with this. I reported it years ago, and they did improve it a lot, but it's still there. I have test cases showing that any surfaces meeting at right angles produce some artifacts from IDL. If a significant portion of the light in those areas comes from IDL (in this case all of it does), then the artifacts are very obvious, and you can't get rid of them.

It is why my Soft Studio Lighting sample scene does not only use glowing props for light, but also some traditional lights.

I posted this image to SM (along with the scene) in a bug report in 2009.

It's no longer as bad as this, but you can't make it go away.

In this scene by xpdev, it is lit correctly. All of the couch light is bounced or from the env sphere which is mostly occluded by the enclosure. There will be artifacts, unless you compromise your lighting and add a point light inside the enclosure, or other similar hack.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I just rendered that scene again in PP2014. It looks like this now.

Notice in addition to a reduction of the corner artifacts, the reflection level that caused amplification has been reduced.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

OK, BB

 

so what you suggest to fix my problem in the scene over your post ?

I'm not able to find the right way to have good lights under the porch and solve issue

 

what you mean with " or other similar hack."

 

i'm not able to find one good working

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

I thought I was clear.

"but you can't make it go away."

There is no solution. You cannot make what you want with Poser. You must compromise your lighting setup by adding an unacceptable, additional light.

This will change how it looks. The look you want cannot be created in Poser.

My suggestion: You should look into using Reality.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I supposed that there was no way out ...

Thanks BB and also to all the others.

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

sorry to intervene, but is someone still interested in my findings?

I've found the following, after toggling about all lighting aspects and IDL properties of things.

The issue of a deep shadowed stripe over the couch (cube) that sticks somewhat out of the porch, is caused by the interference of the direct steep incidenting sunlight & shadow at one hand, with the indirect light - mainly from the sun also - bouncing from the ground onto the ceiling downwards onto the couch.

The first: direct sunlight, creates a bright portion on the "frontside" of the couch as far as the couch is in the light, then the brightness drops rather quickly due to the shadow from the ceiling/roof. Orange line in the graph for intensity.

The second is indirect light bouncing especially from the ground towards the ceiling. This turns the ceiling into a light source, with the largest intensity at the frontside, dropping towards the backside of the porch. But also dropping drastically above the couch itself, as the ceiling stops just there.
So when moving from the outside inwards, this portion of the lighting first rises as we get more ceiling above us, and then reduces slowly as things get slightly darker towards the back of the porch. Blue line in the graph for intensity.

Combining these two effects creates a high intensity level first, then a brighness drop as the direct sun-shadow kicks in, then an increase from the IDL light from the ceiling, and a slow drop as things get darker towards the end. Green line in the graph.
In other words: from some point the brighness from the ceiling (IDL) increases faster than the shadow from the sun (direct) decreases.

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

In nature, this issue does not happen because real IDL is not only caused by re-emission from objects but by scattering in the atmosphere itself too. And because bounces are infinite, and quality is 100%. So, in Poser you can

 - soften the direct shadows, set shadow intensity somewhat below 100%. This will not only reduce the shadow on the couch but will also reduces the darkness withng the porch.

 - increase shadow softness by increasing blur radius (you might have to go as high as 50) and shadow samples (take 10x blur radius), for the infinite sun light

 - increase bounces (render settings), which will increase the IDL level within the porch. Then the iDL will just overwhelm the shadows, makes the artefact less visible.

 - reduce IDL intensity (script > d3d > render firefly) to say 0.65. This will reduce IDL level within the porch.

The splotches as pointed out by BB are especially appearant in test scenes with strong color contrasts, and at low render settings. In rich textured scenes with high render settings, and some direct lights added in as well, Poser can do a nice job, and the rest can be fixed in post. Poser is nice for it's price, but not perfect for cheap.

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Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

I'm not saying Poser is so bad it's useless. I'm saying that what xpdev is trying to do (small lighting aperture, intense sun, narrow arc hot spot, deep shade, white couch with right angle facing away from dominant light arc) will not work. There will be artifacts, no matter how you set the render settings. I have tried everything for years.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

An interesting read with good info! Keep it up peps.

Comitted to excellence through art.

This is pretty good, except for the mysterious left edge of the house (the outside has plenty of env sphere light - why the artifacts????)

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Looking from the inside behind the props - this is actually pretty f'ing great considering it is Poser.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

How would it look in space?

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

UH OH! Artifacts - tons - and I promise you cannot get rid of them. This is accurate space station lighting - too bad you can't do it.

Now is xpdev doing space station? No, but with the small arc of intense light coming from the ground (pretty much), his scene is closer to space station than snow-covered mountains.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

In photographic terms, the interior of the enclosure in that last image was underexposed by about two stops. To adjust "exposure" I can simply increase my light source intensity. It was 100%. Now it's 400%, corresponding to a two-stop change in my camera aperture. Let's pretend the first image was shot at f/8 - then this one is shot at f/4.

Now I have correct light levels for a nice exposure (as shown by the light meters) but my artifacts are really bad.

You just can't do this picture correctly in Poser.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I modified render settings using D3D dialog - this is about the best I can do. The render time increases dramatically and if the scene was not so ultra simple, it would probably use more than all the RAM I have.

This is the IDL precalc - observe the density of the IC samples points.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Here's the result. Not bad, but still not as good as LuxRender would do.

I will post the settings next.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Settings

The important ones are the four together: IDL Intensity, Bounces, Samples, and Irradiance Cache.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

yeah, and as Poser doesn't do atmospheric scattering, results will be like space station anyway :-). And indeed, whatever high value you put into the render settings, Firefly insists on making splotches in the right-angle corners. But as said, Poser can come close at reasonable resource usages (RAM space, CPU power, wallet power, user time).

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

A closer look reveals the artifacts are subdued, but still there. Certainly acceptable for hobby use, but this is not magazine ad quality and never will be no matter what you do.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - yeah, and as Poser doesn't do atmospheric scattering, results will be like space station anyway :-). And indeed, whatever high value you put into the render settings, Firefly insists on making splotches in the right-angle corners. But as said, Poser can come close at reasonable resource usages (RAM space, CPU power, wallet power, user time).

Totally agree.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

With those settings, my scene styled like the [Cornell Box](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_box) looks like this.

In my scene, the light fixture is a scaled Poser box, with Ambient_Color = white and Ambient_Value = 10.

No other sources of light are in it.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - yeah, and as Poser doesn't do atmospheric scattering, results will be like space station anyway :-). And indeed, whatever high value you put into the render settings, Firefly insists on making splotches in the right-angle corners. But as said, Poser can come close at reasonable resource usages (RAM space, CPU power, wallet power, user time).

I agree.  Most users won't care, or notice.  I've read so many people suggesting that Poser's Firefly can create images as good as Luxrender or Octane, so the flawed IDL implimentation in Firefly seems to be "good enough" in many people's eyes.  The problem technically seems to be inaccurate interpolation sampling, and Poser does not offer the exposed settngs to refine this beyond the overly simplified render settings in Firefly.  There should be far deeper control over the irradiance solution exposed in the render settings. Certainly in the "Pro" version of Poser.  The render settings available in PoserPro need a much deeper level of control exposed to the user.

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more and more interesting discussion

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

depressing.  i've been waiting all night for an idl render with Snarly's metals in the scene 

that cornell box is interesting.

found the page with the photo of the box http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/online/box/compare.html

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has anyone tried the box in lux?

lux is the same thing as reality?

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Quote - depressing.  i've been waiting all night for an idl render with Snarly's metals in the scene 

that cornell box is interesting.

found the page with the photo of the box http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/online/box/compare.html

 

I like the difference image.

Quote - has anyone tried the box in lux?

Do you mean anyone at all? Google image search says yes, somebody has tried it.

Quote - lux is the same thing as reality?

No - Reality is the scene editing/conversion utility to take a Poser scene, convert it to Lux, then render in Lux. Lux is not Reality, same as Reality is not Poser. They're all pieces of a workflow involving all three.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Not only has the cornell box been "tried" in Luxrender, it's been taken to a whole new level, with volumetric light, caustics, refractive materials, and the works. I'd like to see that attempted in Poser firefly, and see what the render times are by comparison.  Poser doesn't support physical caustics, so we'd have to forgive it that, and some other things will not be possible as well.

** http://www.luxrender.net/forum/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=14532**

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I would like to see more on this discussion. I am playing with BB's render settings right now.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

wheee. downloaded a box and spheres.  

blender is scary looking, but it has a bunch of render engines to test render in.

is it a better test to close the box?

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The photograph of the real box used as reference is not closed, so it's not better to close the box.

If you're thinking about all the many times people here say that IDL won't work well with a missing 4th wall, they're wrong. Ignore that.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I believe that since my version is made of Poser primitives, it is OK to distribute it. So here it is if you want it. Remove the .txt extension when you save it.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - The photograph of the real box used as reference is not closed, so it's not better to close the box.

But it is in a room, and in the link you posted the ceiling does appear to be visible at the top corners of the photo.  Is there a discussion anywhere online of the environment of the box?

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Forwarding this link to fun test props  Thanks Mustake!

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Quote - I believe that since my version is made of Poser primitives, it is OK to distribute it. So here it is if you want it. Remove the .txt extension when you save it.

kewl!  Thanks!

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Quote - But it is in a room

Which by all absence of evidence on the Cornell Box data page, is not contributing to the lighting in a measurable way - one assumes that the room is obscured by a non-reflecting cloth or enclosure.

This page supplies detailed Cornell box simulation data:

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/online/box/data.html

Nowhere in it is any mention of the factors of the enclosing room - one has to assume that those factors are 0.

Quote - and in the link you posted the ceiling does appear to be visible at the top corners of the photo.

Which link is that? The only link I see above in my posts is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_box

That wiki article does not have a photo - it has a render from POV-ray and I don't see any ceiling, so you must be talking about something else.

If, instead, you're talking about my render of MY version of the box for Poser, it has no ceiling either. The box walls and ceiling, however, are actually thick and have a front face, and also my floor is the Poser ground which extends beyond the box, and the ground shows light spilling out beyond the box, which then reflects back on the front faces of the walls and ceiling. If that's what you're referring to, then it's not a mystery that they're lit - nor are such lit faces present in the official cornell box which by all appearances has nothing whatsoever outside its interior boundary.

Quote - Is there a discussion anywhere online of the environment of the box?

I have not been able to find any, not even in the official Cornell web pages. Given the care and sophistication that goes into their testing and simulation, I very much doubt that you're supposed to think there is any environment contribution at all. Imagine if there was a contribution and they forgot to take it into account - would they not look incredibly stupid?

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Poser does not offer the exposed settngs to refine this beyond the overly simplified render settings in Firefly.  There should be far deeper control over the irradiance solution exposed in the render settings. Certainly in the "Pro" version of Poser.  The render settings available in PoserPro need a much deeper level of control exposed to the user.

use d3d's FFRender script.

Quote - use d3d's FFRender script.

You're talking about this script?

http://d3d.sesseler.de/index.php?software=poserpython&product=render

Sorry, while that's a nice script, all it does is provide a more convenient way to access the settings in Firefly that are already exposed to the user.  There's nothing in there that will help fix blotches or noise, beyond what is already available.

I'm talking about deep level of control over the irradience solution, which would require the ability to tweak interpolation, and adjust raycast parameters.

Let's take the level of exposed control for the user end in something like Vray, as an  example:

http://www.aleso3d.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/vray-render-settings-interior-rendering.jpg

The ability to get a perfect marriage of speed vs quality is available to the end user, in abundance.  I'm not suggesting Poser users would want all this control, but we can not achieve good renders in some architectural situations, and that's problematic for advanced users, using Firefly.

This level of control is useful to achieve optimum results in most render situations, using biased render engines and GI.  Unbiased can be far more simple, but that's another story.

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Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

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Quote - > Quote - and in the link you posted the ceiling does appear to be visible at the top corners of the photo.

Which link is that? The only link I see above in my posts is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_box

That wiki article does not have a photo - it has a render from POV-ray and I don't see any ceiling, so you must be talking about something else.

 

Oops; sorry Ted, it was Honzu's link...

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/online/box/compare.html

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Attached Link: Next limit (Maxwell) - Photography techniques to speed-up interior renders

This discussion reminded me of an article on the Next limit site which appears to be trying to solve a similar problem (and suggestion of replacing indirect light with direct to remove artifacts) - added link in case its of interest to someone.

Quote - This discussion reminded me of an article on the Next limit site which appears to be trying to solve a similar problem (and suggestion of replacing indirect light with direct to remove artifacts) - added link in case its of interest to someone.

Yes, except that Maxwell is a physical based render engine, so some of the techniques used there might not translate well to a render engine like FireFly.  Maxwell's "direct" lights" are far more realistic, and based on area emitter physics.  The problem they are solving is how to make the GI calculations faster, and more efficient.  In an entirely enclosed room, adding direct emitter lights in the windows, which approximate the size and shape of the windows, will accurately assist the simulation and calculation time, and speed up the render.  Poser's lights aren't physically based, and the problem is a little different, although this would be interesting to test with IDL and some object emitters in the windows.  I have a feeling, without the necessary parameters to tweak the irradience interpolation and other params, this kind of physical simulation won't work in Poser well at all.  There won't be any way to clean the results.  Using the non-physical standard lights in Poser will help, but the results won't be as realistic as emitters.  Wouldn't hurt to try though.

The technique provides a good example of something that might work well in Luxrender/Reality, or Octane though.  Worth a try.

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Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

I have to admit that I completely lost track of the question between all those great answers around. Can someone rephrase the issue at hand? I'm not trolling, I'm lost.

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Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

this is what I got with bill's box.

artifacts not too bad IMVHO. did anybody else try it?

With that amount of samples and basically without caching, how long took it to render this, on which kind of hardware?

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
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Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

interesting.

 16 threads, are you running dual Xeon or so?

 pixel samples 8, that's 8x8 antiliasing. 3x3 would do I guess

 irradiance cache OFF ? and still artifacts "not too bad". Hmmmm.

 smooth polygons OFF ? and everything else is about high quality.

 render time? 

And I still don't know the question behind this answer. 

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Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

question: how to grasp irradiance in poser.   answer: don't use irradiance cache (IC).  machine: ordinary imac from 2009, 2 hr. render.  was thinking of getting newer faster one to watch blu-rays, but old ones are fast enuff for poser, and new macs don't ship with blu-ray drives.  avoid smoothing these primitives when possible.

Quote - question: how to grasp irradiance in poser.   answer: don't use irradiance cache (IC).  machine: ordinary imac from 2009, 2 hr. render.  was thinking of getting newer faster one to watch blu-rays, but old ones are fast enuff for poser, and new macs don't ship with blu-ray drives.  avoid smoothing these primitives when possible.

So without the interpolation (IC) enabled, Poser's IDL method is about the same as brute force Monte-Carlo GI methods in other render engines, except there are still render artifacts that can not be cleaned entirely.  Although the artifacts are minimal in your last render of the Cornell box, if one were to include additional geometry in a much more complex, but similar scene; with reflective or refractive materials, more sharp angles, and adjoining corners, the results would more than likely be troublesome, with render times not much better than something like Luxrender (depending on your hardware).  If we only had access to control the probabilistic subdivision sampling, we might be able to finness a virtually clean result from Firefly, but I don't think it's possible until additional parameters of the IDL sampling are unlocked/exposed to the user.

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Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

theory: if orthogonal joins are micropolygonal and/or microbeveled, then it would work better.  possibly related problem with poser cone (P7 or P8), which was solved by replacing tip (apex) with tiny empty polygon.  it still looked like sharp point, but eliminated rendering artifacts.

Quote - theory: if orthogonal joins are micropolygonal and/or microbeveled, then it would work better.  possibly related problem with poser cone (P7 or P8), which was solved by replacing tip (apex) with tiny empty polygon.  it still looked like sharp point, but eliminated rendering artifacts.

Hmmm. Has anyone tried increasing the subdivision surface density of the geometry, in areas with concave angles and coincident faces?  Looks like most of the images posted so far are very simple geometrically, which you would expect to render good results, but might actually create problems.  Higher resolution geometry might force the raycaster to increase sampling in areas with concave angles and coplanar faces, improving the IDL solution.  Then again, it might worsen the problem, at the cost of even more render time.

I'm just curious if it would make a difference (for better or worse) or at all.  Instead of walls and floors that consist of 2x2 or 4x4 polygons, try geometry that's subdivided to 32x32 or 64x64 at least, and chamfer or bevel the corners of the walls, allowing more geometry in those tight areas to force more sampling.

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Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

is the color walls supposed to bleed into the objs' shadows too?

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Quote - is the color walls supposed to bleed into the objs' shadows too?

 

Yes.

Though technically the colours are bleeding everywhere and are being washed out by the Main light.

Which leaves the colour-bleed visible only in the areas the Main light can't reach directly, i.e. the shadows.

regards
prixat

Another question.

You suggested this thing:

Quote - use large softboxes instead

 

I tried to use this technique but the problem is that "large softboxes" are visible on every reflective surface and sometimes even in the eyes of the characters.

There is something that I do not know about "large softboxes" or is there a way to hide them?

Or may be there are "large softboxes" that emit light but are totally invisible on reflective surfaces?

Many thanks

I didn't see an answer to this question. I have the same issue. If I use some large object to light up the scene I can make it invisible to the camera, but I can't stop it from reflecting in eyes and everything else.

W10, Ryzen 5 1600x, 16Gb,RTX2060Super+GTX980, PP11, 11.3.740

If you haven't updated with the latest service release, you should:  there is a very significant improvement in the blotchy IDL artifacts.

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Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

This is the kind of thread we want to see more of here. Thanks. Making this a sticky.

If we can get enough others to make similar threads, I will make those sticky as well and move them to the Poser Technical forum with a stickied link page from here as a ToC, (so that all the stickies don't pile up too high).

:)

you wanna reduce cornea surface reflection of large diffuse sources?  will cause classic poser 4 "dead doll eyes" look (mostly specular), unless segregate light panels from other posersurfaces by clamp or limit diffuse.  will consider it over weekend (quitting time ~3 min. frm now), but I daresay BB already solved this.  would start with typical refl/spec math as shown below, then moderate with diffuse node. e.g. would only accept diffuse below certain limit, in case light panels had ambient > 1.0.

Artbee, Thanks for this post it has inspired me into trying

light settings I've never poked around into, Please continue !

Anyone figure out a FAST work around to fix those black splotches?  I don't want to set the samples so high that the render takes forever to finish.