Over the years I've made several attempts to appreciate IBL lighting with little success. From what I can tell, an IBL light simply provides a general cast over the entire scene. This is the same whether you are using a fancy shiny globe based image, a regular (flat) image or no image at all.

So why all the fuss about IMAGE based lighting? Other than a general, scene-wide cast what is the image supposed to do for you?

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

An old thread - has several images in a row showing how an IBL with an image does NOT look the same as with no image at all.

After following the link, scroll up a bit and start reading.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2737823&page=64#message_3428139

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

If we're talking in general about IBL and not Poser specific IBL its useful if you want to blend your render in with a photographic image (eg someone wants to add a CGI special effect to a film scene). The IBL will not only match the lighting but also add reflections. The globe images are full 360 degrees which would be required for a true IBL render.

HDRI on bill's envsphere allows more realistic rendering than ordinary scene with default poser lites. it's the most advanced implementation of IBL in poser yet provided. old-style poser 6 IBL is now obsolete, but at the time it was way more advanced than poser 4 lighting, which unfortunately we still see in uninformed renders.

Quote - Over the years I've made several attempts to appreciate IBL lighting with little success. From what I can tell, an IBL light simply provides a general cast over the entire scene. This is the same whether you are using a fancy shiny globe based image, a regular (flat) image or no image at all.

So why all the fuss about IMAGE based lighting? Other than a general, scene-wide cast what is the image supposed to do for you?

The image provides subtle changes in light color, which result in more realistic overal (global) lighting, especially if the image in use is high dynamic range. Older versions of Poser (5 and 6) only supported LDR images, but it was still useful, combined with AO, to get realistic lighting with only two light sources in the scene. Unlike the use of dozens, or hundreds of point or spotlights, IBL is easier to set up, and along with irradience calculations, provides more professional, realistic renders.

The IBL image also provides a way to include complex environmental effects for reflective and refractive materials in the scene, instead of faking those with texture maps or other means.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

I hate to be one of those internet guys who do this but reading through the thread )and the one linked to) it's starting to get to me....so I have to point out that every time you put light or lights or lighting at the end of IBL you are saying Image Based Light Lighting and Image Based Light Light or Image Based Light Lights. Wouldn't it be better to just say IBL and leave it at that?

It's like saying, "I'm taking money out from the ATM machine".

Quote - I hate to be one of those internet guys who do this but reading through the thread )and the one linked to) it's starting to get to me....so I have to point out that every time you put light or lights or lighting at the end of IBL you are saying Image Based Light Lighting and Image Based Light Light or Image Based Light Lights. Wouldn't it be better to just say IBL and leave it at that?

I don't think it's appropriate to just say IBL in all cases. IBL is a process, consisting of various subjects. In some cases, being specific in reference to which part of that process is required. IBL in some applications, including Poser, requires a light and an image (the light being a dome emitter). So if you're talking about IBL, you can still specifically refer to the Light, and it wouldn't be redundant.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

IBL is one of the newer and improved lighting system to render with.
your more app to get a realistick render with IBL.

I also realy like IBL to model with.

============================================================

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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K. I just was thinking about it and I'm like, I wouldn't say I was using a spotlight light and that's when it started nagging at me but I understand everyone's points. Carry on. :)

Quote - K. I just was thinking about it and I'm like, I wouldn't say I was using a spotlight light and that's when it started nagging at me but I understand everyone's points. Carry on. :)

Oh I understand, and agree it's used improperly in most cases. I'm guilty as charged sometimes. Same thing with HDRI. It's redundant to say HDRI Image, although it's often referred to as such. However, you might say HDRI light, if it was in context to the light source using the HDR image.

No worries. :biggrin:

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Using IBL/HDR is a great way to light your scene, as well as providing the needed off screen background for great reflections. The IBL implementation in Poser isn't as user friendly (i.e. as easy to set up) as in some other applications, but it's still very useful for great lighting and effects.

One key is to make sure the image you are using will actually provide the type of light you want. I've come across a few images that simply didn't work as well as expected. It's also very important to have the image oriented/rotated correctly to provide the lighting you want, because having the "birght sun" light your scene from the back probably isn't the the light setup your looking for (not an uncommon issue to have to rotate the image).

The attached image (click on it to see the full sized version) was rendered in Octane, but it's a good example of a scene that is lit with only the HDR image. It also demontrates the value of the background reflections they can provide (actually, there are a couple of mesh lights in the building which helped provide a bit more visibility through the glass into the building, but they weren't used to light the focal or main part of the scene).

The link provided by Bagginsbill should help you a lot for using IBL in Poser.

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Quote - I hate to be one of those internet guys who do this but reading through the thread )and the one linked to) it's starting to get to me....so I have to point out that every time you put light or lights or lighting at the end of IBL you are saying Image Based Light Lighting and Image Based Light Light or Image Based Light Lights. Wouldn't it be better to just say IBL and leave it at that?

~laffin~ You and me both. My pet peeves are "ATM Machine," "PIN Number" and my wife's favorite "hamburger meat"

"HDRI on bill's envsphere allows more realistic rendering than ordinary scene with default poser lites. it's the most advanced implementation of IBL in poser yet provided."

I know it was a couple days earlier than the reality 3.1 release; but, R3.1's integration with sIBL is probably the most advanced implementation(and easiest) of ibl in poser. I've not had the opportunity to use octane's ibl; but, I use ibl in nearly every render I create and R3.1's is the easiest and nicest looking(for me) to date.

sIBL is very good - have used it in poser. but try explaining to users how to convert the sun position (poser infinite lite with altitude and azimuth) to UV-coords. fortunately the ones I used were always (u,v)=(0.66,0.33) or something obvious.

Quote - sIBL is very good - have used it in poser. but try explaining to users how to convert the sun position (poser infinite lite with altitude and azimuth) to UV-coords. fortunately the ones I used were always (u,v)=(0.66,0.33) or something obvious.

have never needed to use the sun with sibl in poser.. in fact.. if you use the sun light you're sort of defeating the purpose and working against yourself since the sphere used for the ibl blocks out the sunlight. ibl's are meant to be used to give realistic environmental lighting

Only ibl without an infinite look like a rainy day no ?

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Quote - Only ibl without an infinite look like a rainy day no ?

Depends on the ibl you're using and it's rotation in the scene. There's one that's at hdrlabs called Playa Sunset or something like that.. i've put the sun setting behind my character and it was beautifully shadowed and I had to put in a mesh light to fill in so you could see her face.. then i rotated it around so that it was behind the camera and you could see the glow of the setting sun in her eyes.

then i've used the desert highway set from hdrlabs and the sun in it was so harsh i had to use diffusers to reduce the glare..

a lot of it is about the quality of the ibl itself. most of the content providers(i'm not saying all.. just most) that release ibl lights for poser and studio are NOT photographers. the ones releasing the sets at hdrlabs are usually professional photographers who do nothing but work in hdr pictures.

on a side note.. got a new cell phone last night an LG F3. it's camera is capable of taking hdr panorama shots.. i just might have to play around some with it.

Quote - have never needed to use the sun with sibl in poser.. in fact.. if you use the sun light you're sort of defeating the purpose and working against yourself since the sphere used for the ibl blocks out the sunlight. ibl's are meant to be used to give realistic environmental lighting

Poser IBL doesn't use a real sphere - it's just conceptual.

My EnvSphere (which is real) with IDL does not block the sunlight. It's set to not cast shadows.

IBL's are indeed meant to give environmental lighting, but they do not give the lighting of the sun - only the sky and ground. The sunlight is too concentrated to be picked up as a point light source with a 1/2 degree arc via IBL or IDL. It is necessary to augment the environment sphere or IBL with an infinite light - otherwise you have no sharp shadows.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Pictures speak better than words ;)

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Very nice, Anthanasius. So what did you do differently between the right and left images?

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

Left only IDL, right IDL + Infinite light for the sun ;)

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Some HDRI maps can produce sharp shadows without additional lights. This does not apply to how IBL is handled in Poser, but it's possible to achieve this with HDRI. If you scroll down this page to Shadow Sharpness, you'll see the comparison of a tone-mapped HDRI vs. IBL.

http://www.aversis.be/tutorials/vray/vray-high-dynamic-range-hdri.htm

When you don't capture the full dynamic range, you aren't capturing the true environmental conditions, and can't achieve sharp shadows from the sun in the image. However, properly exposed, high dynamic range images, using only a small area of high exposure, can produce the desired result, without additional light sources. I don't think Poser can handle these kind of HDR maps. Would be great if it did. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is also the reason most IBL maps cast a blue hue over everything in the scene. It's due to incorrect lighting balance in the captured image.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Your article talk about renders under V-Ray, nothing ti do with the crappy Poser render.

But, you ca tweak a little to have better specular and remove bluish with IDL, but never sharp shadows

Simple IDL

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An now, exactly the same scene and same picture for the envsphere, just playing with bias and math functions.

No more blue and more shadows and better specular reflection

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Quote - Your article talk about renders under V-Ray, nothing ti do with the crappy Poser render.

Perhaps not, but it's still helpful to understand basic concepts, especially in regard to how and why things are the way the are in Poser.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

The sharp shadows are due to dynamic exposure in the image, and not just because of Vray, BTW.

If you used those images in Luxrender, or Octane, you'd get sharp shadows. I don't think POser handles HDRI like this, but that's the point of the article.,

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Quote - An now, exactly the same scene and same picture for the envsphere, just playing with bias and math functions.

No more blue and more shadows and better specular reflection

Clearly, your own tests seem to indicate some better shadows can be achieved, just by adjusting the exposure of the image you used in the IBL. Not saying you can achieve hard shadows, but it's a start. Now what would happen if you used a properly exposed HDR image as the IBL image source? Possibly even better results, without any direct light source? Probably not, but that's the point of the article. Nothing to do with Vray.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

poser works well with hdri (0 <= rgb <= 32) on bill's envsphere. when using ones with visible sun, area subtended by sun and glare around it (rgb >> 1) is too large for sharp shadows. FFRender calculates transition from sharp to blurred sun shadow using raytracing, like when horizontal occluder casts shadow on vertical surface.

other advantage to using inf. lite for sun in poser: kills IDL corner artifacts whilst allowing speedier renders (interpolation and low samples).

Well well well. I take back some of what I said. I read the vray link, and although I knew the things it said, I didn't quite know the absolute importance of 12 EV dynamic range. I mean, I know that it's a ratio of 4096 to 1, but I've also assumed that photographers who make these HDRI know what they're doing and make sure to take the photos with a good EV range. It would seem they frequently do not.

Here is a render I just did in Poser, using one from this page:

http://www.hdrlabs.com/sibl/archive.html

called Desert Highway. I selected the image Road_to_MonumentValley_Ref.hdr from within that zip file.

At first, it produced the usual blue cast, no shadow render we see all the time. Then I used my EnvSphere nodes to manipulate the contrast, artificially boosting the dynamic range to a much higher level. I also increased my IDL samples to 8000.

Are you ready to see it?

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Here it is, no directional light - lit only by my highly-manipulated copy of that HDR.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Here it is, no directional light - lit only by my highly-manipulated copy of that HDR.

Bingo! That looks incredible.

I rest my case. It may just be the angle of the shot, but the sampling in the corners of the box looks very good too. I don't see the typical render artifacting in the corners of the interior space. Although i'm sure it did nothing to solve that issue, it probably does as much as the addition of a direct light. How is render time vs. standard direct light substitution? Great results.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

it looks good. is possible to use augmented hdri as background, or do you use 2nd sphere with sIBL jpg on it, slightly outside hdri sphere?

maxxx: bill used enuff samples to lose the artifacts.

Cool bagginsbill !

You're talking about HDRI map, what's about simple equirectangular jpeg ?

Curious to see the shader :D

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shader is likely bill's envsphere shader with hdrlabs hdri plugged in. increase hsv value to 4 or 8 for some of them, as dynamic range may only be from 0<= rgb <=4, which is not full 32-bit hdri that FFRender can use. I don't know which node he used to change contrast; maybe gamma.

in desert highway hdri, sun is at photoshop limit for 32-bit hdr, but one can use much higher values for white in poser, e.g. 100 or 1000. sky is very bright, only dropping to rgb ~ 0.3 in polarised area.

p.s. this is what I got w/desert hiway sIBL set.

YMMV

That's most excellent. The impossible made possible. This should be garnering more excitement in the community, because that makes lighting much more accurate, and glossy reflections a better match to the environment as well (not requiring a point-based artificial direct light source).

Great work. The shadow in that render above looks as good or better than a raytraced infinite.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Well done Nancy :D

But is it possible with simple ldr or jpg ?

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previous render uses point lite. I've got one set up to delete lite, but haven't got time to render before quitting time today (chinese new year). I also don't know if ground shader will work with it - may need recalibration of bill's free ground shader.

will also work with jpeg as illum source. in above, jpeg version of hdri is background, whilst hdri provides illum.

previous render uses point lite

*Je me disais aussi, shadows too sharp for only IDL ;)

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Where did you get the ground shader you've pictured? I don't have that one.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Here ;)

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Oh, that one! Thanks so much! When my last laptop died, I lost a lot of BB's shaders that he'd published since 2012 came out. I've found some of them again, but not all of the shaders that I remember having.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

But i dont think it's a good idea to use it for IDL renders

Here 3 renders

Firts i use BB shader

Second i use the shadow caster in the materian room

Third i use a prop with asphalt BB shader

Look the occlusion, look better in 2 and 3 render.

Reflection look more realistic in the 3 render.

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There is a good reason many don't take photos in the right range BB, and that's because the camera they own is not capable of doing so.

Many digital camera CCDs just can't do it.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

Quote - previous render uses point lite.

Oh. Well, I take back the part about the shadows then, because that's really what I was most interested in here.

Bill achieved a very nice shadow without point lite or infinite in his scene, so it's been proven possible, and that's what really matters.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

This is from Octane, not Poser (my poser node fu stinks), but it does show that realistic shadows are attainable using hdr as the only light source. I used Monument Valley Lookout from HDRLabs. You can see the sun position in the chrome ball.

The "trick" with Octane to get sharp shadows wirh hdr images is to raise the gamma for the HDR. The default is value is 1, and that gives very soft lighting like in the first image I posted, in this image it was at 2.2.

I'm not sure how you would replicate this in Poser, but it should be possible.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

Hi, everybody. I'm the OP. This thread ran off and left me behind a long time ago, but it looks like it's been helpful to others, so that's good. I understand a tiny bit more about IBL than I did before, so that's good also, but mainly I think I've reached the point where I need to remind myself that this is just a hobby for me.

Carry on.

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

Quote - Hi, everybody. I'm the OP. This thread ran off and left me behind a long time ago, but it looks like it's been helpful to others, so that's good. I understand a tiny bit more about IBL than I did before, so that's good also, but mainly I think I've reached the point where I need to remind myself that this is just a hobby for me.

Carry on.

Very few if any Pro's render in Poser.So that leaves Hobbyist.
Try out all the cool tech the Artist are talking about.
Push Poser to the limmit ,even Hobbyist can look like Pro's

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - There is a good reason many don't take photos in the right range BB, and that's because the camera they own is not capable of doing so.

Many digital camera CCDs just can't do it.

While it's true that most cameras aren't able to do HDRI in one exposure, every camera which is capable of bracketed images can provide pictures which can be processed to HDRIs with the appropriate software. So when you attempt to do an HDRI and fail, there is no reason to blame it on the camera.

Quote - > Quote - There is a good reason many don't take photos in the right range BB, and that's because the camera they own is not capable of doing so.

Many digital camera CCDs just can't do it.

While it's true that most cameras aren't able to do HDRI in one exposure, every camera which is capable of bracketed images can provide pictures which can be processed to HDRIs with the appropriate software. So when you attempt to do an HDRI and fail, there is no reason to blame it on the camera.

I'm a fan of Topaz but I would still use a HDRI capable camera.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

We're getting far pretty far off topic if we're going to talk about cameras, but I have to say this, because it's true:

Any camera that allows manual exposure control can create HDR images, even film cameras.

Now - if your point is that some are more WORK than others, that's a different point. But let's be clear - if somebody publishes an HDRI and it actually has low dynamic range, we do not excuse this insult by suggesting that maybe they did the best they could with the camera they had. That's horseshit.

Even some smartphones now include HDR modes. Select it, and click the shutter. Geez.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

> Quote - Any camera that allows manual exposure control can create HDR images, even film cameras.

Sorry, that is hog wash when it comes to a digital camera. There is no way to extend the bit depth of the sensor past what noise reduction will do as far as adding to it.

A true HDR digital camera has a 20 bit CCD that equates to 120db before noise reduction.

With a standard CCD, which is 10 or 12 bit, you cant get 120db after noise reduction.

And 8 bit CCD cant even do HDR with a ton of shots, there is only so much 256 levels can capture.

A 32 bit CCD can do an HDR shot in just about any lighting senario in a single shot if you know what your doing.

Go ahead an tell me that I am wrong on that...

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

You're right about single shot but nobody said single shot. You take bracketed exposures, adjusting your shutter speed. Many cameras, including almost every Nikon and Canon, will do this for you automatically. You can get as many as 9 different exposures from a single press of the button. Then you use software to combine them. The result is way higher dynamic range than any single exposure can manage.

And that was my point about more or less work, versus possible or impossible.

It is possible to make a good HDR image using any camera that has manual exposure controls.

Anyway - there's no point in arguing about it. If you want to excuse incompetence or laziness that's your prerogative.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Please read this before responding again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_imaging

Quote - High-dynamic-range photographs are generally achieved by capturing multiple standard photographs, often using exposure bracketing, and then merging them into an HDR image. Digital photographs are often encoded in a camera's raw image format, because 8 bit JPEG encoding doesn't offer enough values to allow fine transitions (and introduces undesirable effects due to the lossy compression).

Any camera that allows manual exposure control can create HDR images. This includes film cameras, though the images may need to be digitized so they can be processed with software HDR methods.

Some cameras have an auto exposure bracketing (AEB) feature with a far greater dynamic range than others, from the 3 EV of the Canon EOS 40D, to the 18 EV of the Canon EOS-1D Mark II.[10] As the popularity of this imaging method grows, several camera manufactures are now offering built-in HDR features. For example, the Pentax K-7 DSLR has an HDR mode that captures an HDR image and outputs (only) a tone mapped JPEG file.[11] The Canon PowerShot G12, Canon PowerShot S95 and Canon PowerShot S100 offer similar features in a smaller format.[12] Even some smartphones now include HDR modes, and most platforms have apps that provide HDR picture taking.[13]

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

yes, my Canon Rebel XSi (450D) has those bracketing settings for HDR

Im well aware of what bracketing is. But it is not possible to do it with any CCD. I don't give a crap what you quoted. With a decent CCD, yeah no problem, but only to a point depending on a few things.

The tone mapping you quoted that many cameras convert the shot to store it, effectively it ruins the dynamic range of the image. With multiple exposures you can reverse this to get an HDR image, to a point.

Sadly, if you use a true HDR camera to take the same picture, the two will have dramatic differences that you can plainly see even thou our eyes have no where near that much dynamic range. Tone mapping destroys the extremes of the image, especially high lights. They get blown out, and there is nothing you can do about that other than use a better camera. The further apart the ends of the range are, the worse it gets.

As far as a film camera goes, you have to do multiple shots to do an HDR because the contrast ratio of film is about one third of what HDR is supposed to be. But your still not going to get the same picture an HDR CCD does.

Here is a quote for you, from one of the for most experts in HDR.

"A standard 12-bit CMOS sensor with good noise reduction can achieve around 84 dB, which is "pretty good HDR", while a 14-bit CMOS sensor with good noise reduction can achieve nearly 100 dB, which is "mainstream HDR". However, HDR-specific sensors are required for truly high dynamic range scenes."

(Mike Tusch) CEO of http://www.apical.co.uk/

What this means in plain English is, if you want an HDR image over 100db, you need hardware that can capture it properly, period... If it isn't 100db or above it isn't going to have the proper range, just like the two examples in the link on the first page that maxx posted.

You can argue it all you want, but the fact remains that you can not make a correct HDR image with any camera. All the experts in the field agree with that fact. You apparently know better than they do.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

Im well aware of what bracketing is. But it is not possible to do it with any CCD. I don't give a crap what you quoted.

***and why should we give a crap about what you quote, when you spout that attitude?

*I'm out. not interested in the fight thats now going to start. don't bother replying.

Hardly - I said good, now you're saying good isn't what we were discussing, but "if you want an HDR image over 100db". Where did you find anybody in this topic saying they needed 100db. I was asserting that there is no excuse for 15db, which is what I'm seeing in some of these images, and that anybody with manual exposure control can do better than that.

Suddenly you're refuting my assertion by showing that 100db cannot be achieved with an ordinary camera.

So what? What exactly is contradicting my claim that 15db is unacceptable and is the work of somebody who is lazy or incompetent?

If you want to have a discussion of what is need for over 100db, there's nothing to go against what you quoted - i'm fine with that.

But I said "good" in my posts, and "good" according to your own quote is:"A standard 12-bit CMOS sensor with good noise reduction can achieve around 84 dB, which is "pretty good HDR". How is that not consistent with my statement "It is possible to make a good HDR image using any camera that has manual exposure controls."????

I feel like you want to fight because you need to, not because you have an actual correction to what I said.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Im not tring to fight.

HDR is as overused as the word Turbo.... Apparently it is misused more often than not.

I must have missed where you mentioned 15db...

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

The biggest problem I had with multiple apps at first was.
Each app and plug definition of a word may be similar or worlds apart.
To subdivide a mesh in zBrush you use "Divide" but in C4D you use "HyperNURBS".
Nurbs have nothing to do with subdivide in most app's.

Some app's will use terms like Raytrace ,Caustic ,HDRI etc etc.
Cause it looks good in there add's but there definition of raytrace ,caustic ,HDRI etc etc.
Is not the same as the highend app's.

I remember when trueSpace had VRay as a plug.
Wich was funny cause Vray cost more then trueSpace.
It was Vray but not the same as Max Vray more of a trueSpace Vray lite.

If you look caustic up in a dictionary .not what Artist think of as caustic .

TopazLabs does not have a plug called HDRI.
But they have Adjust ,Clarity ,Detail ,InFocus ya could use for HDRI.

============================================================

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

This topic become a trash ...

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I thought the '_REF' file in a sIBL set is just for the reflection. It intentionally sacrifices dynamic range for more detail.

The '_ENV' file would have the full dynamic range but no detail.

regards
prixat

Quote - I thought the '_REF' file in a sIBL set is just for the reflection. It intentionally sacrifices dynamic range for more detail.

The '_ENV' file would have the full dynamic range but no detail.

You have it exactly backwards.

The REF file

a) has no need to "sacrifice" anything - HDR files have dynamic range in every pixel no matter whether you keep all the pixels (resolution) or not

b) the REF file, for reflections, is precisely the one you need dynamic range on, because a water surface reflection (which at times reflects only 3% of the light) upon showing the sun in a photograph of the water, still displays 255 white. Why? Because the sun, if properly represented, is so bright that 3% of it is still brighter than your pixel can be.

c) A REF file lacking head room (i.e. it didn't use the available dynamic range and is instead clipped), i.e. lacking the proper and accurate recording of the sun light level, is precisely why reflections look wrong when you use it

And as for the ENV file - it totally and intentionally does NOT need head room. This is a file in which the diffuse convolution of the REF file has been performed in advance (those 8000 samples I was talking about) so that you can have your diffuse reflection engine (such as Poser IBL) only have to deal with a small amount of data. This is an image in which the resolution and the dynamic range have been discarded on purpose.

ENV files produce the smeared shadow effect. ENV files cause the renderer to mistake the blinding hot point of the sun for a big, somewhat bright blob.

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Since there seems to continue to be confusion and statements made opposite to the reality, I decided to spend the TIME to demonstrate to you, with hard facts, what the sIBL files have in them.

I have designed a Poser shader that can show us how much dynamic range has been used in an HDR file, something you can't easily tell just by looking at it on the screen.

I will start with the sIBL set Playa Sunrise. This is a rather extreme environment that I like very much.

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Here is the Playa_Sunrise.exr file, rendered as-is on a flat card. The shader is currently configured to do nothing - just let the data flow to the card.

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Now I turn on the shader's clipping filter. This is a very simple filter - if the data is above 1.0 (or in LDR units 255), then that is displayed as is. If, however, the data is below 1.0, which means it is not clipping in an LDR sense, it is shown, but only at 2% of its natural brightness.

So now we can easily see that in most of this picture, the pixels are not clipped - if stored in LDR or HDR, the darkened areas would look the same. Only the still-bright section (the sun and the nearby sky) are bright enough to qualify as "HDR". But how "High" is our H here?

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At the top of the shader is a node I called EV Adjust. This makes an adjustment just like bracketing an exposure on a camera. Here I have applied a 2 EV Adjustment, making it possible to gather data within a range four times brighter (2 to the power 2 = 4).

I have also zoomed the camera in to the sun.

We can see that much of the data is now within LDR range (not clipped). But the sun is still above this 2 EV range. How high is the H here? We don't know yet, but we know it's above 2 EV.

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With EV Adjust at 4, I still have clipping. The clipped area is at least 16 times brighter than the normal data you find in an LDR file.

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At EV Adjust set to 5, nothing is clipping. Everything is now brought into an LDR range, something that any SLR could do.

So I can now conclude that the photographer took his bracketed photos at least to +4. Since it is common practice to bracket equally around the "properly metered" LDR photo, we could well assume that he did -4, -2, 0, 2, 4 or something like that. This is not actually good, but it is usable. My words, OK?

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Now let's look at the corresponding Playa_Sunrise_ENV.hdr file.

This is as-is, no filter, no EV Adjust. See something? Notice it's all blurry? This is for diffuse lighting calculations. It's a pre-calculation of the diffuse light contribution in any direction. It can be used for single-lookup of ambient light. There is no detail here.

But - is there high dynamic range?

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So I turn on the LDR clipping filter, looking for H data. Guess what...

THERE IS NO HIGH RANGE DATA HERE.

This entire image, despite being stored in a .hdr file, is LDR data.

Is this an indictment against the author? NO.

This is the proper information for the diffuse lighting convolution. It is what it is supposed to be. It's not a picture of the environment. It's DATA to be fed to a computer.

The author's only "crime" here is to deliver this data in a file bigger than is required. A low dynamic range PNG file would have retained exactly the same DATA while being smaller.

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Here's another reflection image from an sIBL set, at its limit of +5 EV. When I go to +6, nothing is left.

So - this guy went to +5 or +6. That's better than the Playa set - I'd say it is good.

Remember SharkBytes mentioned (on page 1)

Quote - then i've used the desert highway set from hdrlabs and the sun in it was so harsh i had to use diffusers to reduce the glare..

Well this is why - it has one extra EV bracket in it, making it twice as bright. It was probably bracketed to +6 and probably has recorded the sun brightness level correctly, without any clipping.

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Here is the corresponding ENV file, filtered for clipping at EV 0.

Well well - this ENV file requires an HDR representation because even the diffuse convolution (smeared sun) is brighter than 255.

Cool - this set works better than many others because it is assembled correctly, probably from bracket +6.

Even though the sun is a tiny spot in the original photo, its contribution is enormous, so much so that the ENV data is twice as bright near the sun, a good quarter of the world.

That's a big deal. Without it, you get crap for lighting. So when I see the sun clip at EV +2 in some other HDR file, I know I'm dealing with a junk HDR file. I see those a lot.

I'd rather not show any because without a doubt somebody will get insulted.

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Final example. This is a very GOOD hdr.

This is from the openfootage web site. (I will not make a link).

Look here - I'm at EV Adjust +7 and I still am clipping. This thing is recording data at least from bracket +7, probably +8.

That's very high dynamic range. You may conclude it was taken with some exotic camera.

No - all you need to do is adjust your f stop so that your 0 EV is 1/30th second, then take your +7 bracket at 1/4000th second. Most prosumer SLRs under $1000 would do this easily. My six year old Nikon D90 does it.

By the way - don't think all the images from a given web site are similar in dynamic range. I found one on the same page that stops at +3 - clearly not going to show reflections of the sun correctly. You would have to add an infinite light for that one. Again, I won't say which in public.

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The issue well explained, BB!

It is just that with a camera with a smaller linear response range you need to use more steps to get the full range covered, but most modern cameras with manual control can do it.

You have it exactly backwards.

Thanks. I knew I had misunderstood something.

Is it possible to emulate the whole sIBL setup in Poser?

Both HDR files, the JPG and a Sun light!

If it is, then a Loader script might be in order. (hint, hint) :biggrin:

http://www.hdrlabs.com/sibl/loader.html

regards
prixat

In Poser we don't always need both HDR files and a sunlight. If the reflection map goes to +7 EV, just put it on my environment sphere and turn on IDL. You're done.

However, loading the background image can be useful because many Env Sphere compatible images don't have enough resolution to look directly at them.

I'll think about making an sIBL loader. It would probably not be too difficult.

Meanwhile, a demonstration.

On the tiled wall, I have the most accurate and realistic glass shader I know how to make, with IOR of 1.54. On the gold ring, I have the most accurate and realistic gold shader I know how to make, and on the bulb inside the gold ring, the most accurate and realistic water shader with IOR 1.33. (but no ripples - just flat)

The gold is most reflective, then the glass, then the water.

I have on the EnvSphere the OpenFootage LADefense image - the good one that does +7 EV.

Notice the sun is hot in all three materials.

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Now from the same site, but using an HDR that I measured as only going to +3 EV.

It's ok for the gold and glass, but the sun seen in the "water" material is anemic. It clipped well below the +5 EV necessary for accurate reflections in water.

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This is a tricky business, mixing lights with reflected scenes. Over the past year I did a ton of research in balancing the two, and my materials implement this balancing act. I found that the Blinn node (which I rely on for specular reflections of Poser lights) would accurately behave like the sun if I set its intensity to 40 and then run it through the same Fresnel reflection coefficient calculations as I use for the reflections.

This means, empirically, that in a well-lit scene with accurate and balanced shaders, the intensity of the sun is 40. Nobody ever does that - they always set the sun to 100% or basically 1. So I have the Blinn multiplied with 40, effectively working with an infinite light set to 4000%. In terms of EV, 40 is clipped by +5 EV which only goes to 32x. You have to go to +6 EV (64x) to capture this information.

Anyway, after all that math, and after (trial and error) lining up my infinite light with the real scene's projected "sun", I get this. The infinite light is providing the missing HDR data that should be in the HDR file, but is not.

I invite you to click on both images and do a flip test to notice the differences. You will see that even the glass wasn't very good with only +3 EV for sun light.

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For further demonstration let's show some surfaces with bump. I have wavy glass, hammered gold, and rippled water.

This is just the +3 EV anemic HDR without help from the infinite.

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Now I add the infinite light.

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Would you say your experiments seem to confirm that the 'Sun' light is an important part of the sIBL setup.

regards
prixat

Quote - Would you say your experiments seem to confirm that the 'Sun' light is an important part of the sIBL setup.

It is if the Sphere map is weak, or if you don't want to run Poser IDL with 8000+ samples.

I'd say that the sIBL system as a whole supports multiple styles of rendering, whether you want biased or unbiased, etc. In PP2012 and up, we can choose to incorporate some of the more unbiased ideas, but this comes at a cost for render time.

So - for sure you can get decent results with much less render time if you stop trying to do "almost unbiased" and just deal with the infinite light.

In that respect, the funny thing is you don't much need an HDR sIBL - the environmental lighting (sky, ground, not sun) is more than adequately represented by an LDR sphere map image. I've been doing it pretty happily with LDR for years now.

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When I was working on the Chevy panel van with Tom, I did lots of LDR environment test renders. I thought they looked nice.

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Every one of these I'm showing was using a low dynamic range environment + IDL and I just put the infinite light wherever I wanted it to be. The sIBL stuff sounds cool and all, but really - who needs it?

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Quote - Every one of these I'm showing was using a low dynamic range environment + IDL and I just put the infinite light wherever I wanted it to be. The sIBL stuff sounds cool and all, but really - who needs it?

There's been ways to fake IBL in general for the last 20 years too. Setting up 100's of lights on a dome, and using an image mapped to that dome to create a "fake" environment lighting. They've used that technique in many early CG films, and we thought it looked great at the time. We can make images that look "almost real" with standard lights, and no pre-calculation time at all. We can look at IDL as it is, and say it's cool and all, but really - who needs it? Poser is 5 years behind most of the render world when it comes to lighting. It would at least be nice to catch up a little, but I agree. You don't need it to make renders that look good, or almost real.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

I never use "raw" IDL because of the artefacts and the ridiculously long render times.

Here is a little comparison showing that IDL creates better shadows.

PP-2014. One infinite Sun at 100%. Shadow 1.000. Slight yellow tint.

One mid blue tinted IBL at 20%. No picture attached.

Overall it looks nice, but the problem is that the shadow color is completely uniform

Here the IBL was switched off and replaced by an IDL render pass at 45% strenght.

Note the area between the oil-tank and the wall and the undersides of the roofs. Here the shadow is darker while it in other areas it is actually lighter.

There was no HDRI pic. Just the scene props and the sky which was a normal jpg.

IMO, given that there are hardly any truly photorealistic figures and props available for Poser that would justify the use of unbiased (or truly photorealistic) lightning, I think the "One infinite sun & IDL & scene props or LDR environment" formula is pretty much good enough for the needs of the average Poser user.

If someone truly "needs" poster size printable, truly photorealistic professional quality renders, he or she shouldn't waste their time with Poser any longer.

Now that the average computer can produce photorealistic results in realtime in games, we should rather try to concentrate on speed and ease of use instead of trying to emulate high end renders. (Especially as we, as I said, don't have any high end models to render in the first place)

bagginsbill : Very cool ,thanks.

JoePublic : You alt to run for office ;)
Anyways ,Realtime engines are killer .
but ya need a 3D card with a killer price tag to run them.
So Realtime engines are not a high priority for hobbyist.

and even with your supercharged 3D cards theres limmits.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I would like to also demonstrate IBL, but I will use better settings. I show this because I think some people never set it up right. (This is a response to Joe's post, but not a rebuttal. I'm just showing that IBL is pretty good for some things.)

Poser IBL has improved in speed and quality and while we've all been examining IDL for several years now, I think we may have ignored poor old IBL + AO.

The thing about Poser IBL is not that it won't give deeper and varying shadows. It will, so long as you let it look far enough around the scenery. No, the thing about IBL is it doesn't take into account local bounced light. There are surely situations where we want IDL, but I think many situations, especially many that fall into the world of Poser hobbyists, are more than adequately lit by IBL + AO.

Look here - I set my AO distance to 150 inches. Check out the deeper shadows inside the recesses of the box. This render takes only a few seconds, compared to 40+ minutes for a high quality IDL render. (on my computer, anyway)

Think about that - are you willing to spend 40 minutes instead of 6 seconds? Why? Does your work justify it?

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This was my only light source. It's a procedural (not Image) BL, or PBL. Cool eh? You can change the colors and brightness and you can move the hot spot around a bit.

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But !!! Here's the flaw - and it's pretty important - it's why you go to IDL after all.

I made a blue field with a small yellow hot spot on my PBL.

The left side of the right-hand set of stairs is picking up the yellow. But the yellow is not visible to it - it would be on the other side of the enclosure.

Boooo.

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Here I kept the yellow and blue PBL, but I enabled IDL for the lighting model. Now this is much more realistic. It also took ten times as long to render.

I have to be honest - I am not a purist, and many of the demo renders I show (for example, my cloth or tile material demos) are done with IBL + AO, not IDL. I still use the env sphere for reflections, but not for quick lighting solutions.

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"Anyways ,Realtime engines are killer .
but ya need a 3D card with a killer price tag to run them.
So Realtime engines are not a high priority for hobbyist."

I doubt you need a true high end card for using something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bytIGCeGxo

(NUDITY !)

This is going to be implemented in CONSUMER GAMES.

Why wait even five minutes for a render to finish when you can simply make a screenshot and still have instant photorealism ?

(Thinking about it, why even render at all if you can be actually INSIDE your scene ?)

As a general bit of advice, I want to point out also that you should pay attention to "exposure". In Poser we don't have the equivalent of a camera exposure control (even though the parameters make it look like we do.) So to increase your exposure, you have to manipulate your light intensities. All of them. So the fewer light sources you have, the easier this is.

And - use my light meter. It's free. It's easy to use. It does not interfere with render speed.

I used it here to find that a good intensity for my PBL, as measured from inside the enclosure, is about 900%.

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Thanks for the additional renders, BB.

Yeah, that's the problem: Local shadows.

In my "Beach Scene", there are no buildings, Just the sand and the background/sky.

I can add "local shadows" easily by creating an additional "shadow catcher" ground layer to darken ground shadows, thus creating the illusion of IDL without actually using it.

But in a "fully furnished" scene like the backyard scene I've shown, there are simply too many nooks and crannies and dark corners going on to get a truly convincing "IDL-free" result.

I'm all for faster render times and I'm constantly trying to refine the light sets I use, but so far it was always the shadows that gave any shortcuts away that I tried.

My simple beach scene. Basically a 360° cyclorama with a transmapped ground.

No HDRI pics anywhere. The background and sky are just a jpg set to 1.0 ambient value.

The ground is set up in the "normal" way with a procedural texture and a transmap to blend with the background.

First with a simple (yellow) infinite sun and a blue IBL.

The shadows under the car are very light.

Now I added a second ground layer acting as a shadow catcher to double the ground shadows. Looks better and perhaps "good enuff" for everyday use.

Finally the IDL render. (IBL switched off. Infinite sun stayed the same)

The ground shadows are even better and also the interior shadows have been slightly darkened. Even the insides of the rear lights look better.

Overall the most realistic.

Attached Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBZxDMfL44Q

Even better realtime photorealism demo:

(NUDITY)

Some addendum:

I've given up on using AO a long time ago as I simply don't like its "look". Reminds me when back in the 80's it was en vogue to give scale models a simple "wash" of highly thinned black or dark brown paint to add "depth" and "realism". It does work to a certain extent, but it is easily overdone and then looks fake.

I think it just doesn't work well with the "normal" shadows and it takes too much time to be set up properly. (= per material)

In any case, I never was happy with the results I've got.

The deeper "corner" shadows of IDL are of course also a result of bouncing light. Less light bouncing around in dark corners/tight spaces = deeper shadows.

But unlike the AO the "IDL-shadows" blend much better with the regular shadows.

I'm not saying every render needs IDL. On the contrary: 90% of my renders are made without it.

I'm just saying I haven't found a better (faster) method yet to give me similar results.

At least not in "fully furnished" realistic scenes.

Aaaand there is even another problem:

Some light sets look absolutely fantastic with architecture. But the moment you place a figure in that scene, the skin shader looks horrible.

The skin shader I use is still about 95% EZSkin so I guess there isn't too much wrong with it, so if a certain light setup doesn't give me good results with it, I cannot use it.

The problem gets worse the lighter the skin texture is, btw.

The average "dark orange sunkissed" DAZ skins are a lot more resilent than the "lily-white" textures I mostly prefer.

But IMO a good lightning setup should be neutral and work with all types of skin shaders.

No more words ;)

Génération mobiles Le Forum / Le Site

I love this discussion, but I have one question. I have Poser Pro 2012 and will still be using it for the foreseable future because I can't afford yet to yet PP2014. How do you use IBL with an Environment sphere? Whenever I've tried it, it seems that the sphere is blocking the IBL light. Is there something I'm not doing, or is this a quirk of PP2012 that you can't use an IBL light with an Environment sphere (yeah and add a touch of IDL as well). I like IBL because I can adjust contrast. I can't adust contrast with Envsphere and IDL. Or if there is a way to adjust contrast with that combo, I don't know how to do it.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Who's sphere are you using? Who's shader on the sphere are you using?

Anybody's sphere can be made to behave, but I'm wondering if you have mine, because mine comes properly set up.

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If you're using my sphere and my shaders, not only can you adjust contrast, but you can do quite dramatic effects. Have you looked here?

https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff/environment-sphere/environment-sphere-effects

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Yes, I am using your sphere, BB. I did not check out the section on Effects. I was just wondering if in PP2012 a sphere blocks the IBL light. If it does, then how the heck would you using IBL n a closed room under PP2012???

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

To use an IBL for lighting and an EnvSphere for reflections with or without IDL, you should have the EnvSphere Properties Visible On, Casts shadows Off, Light Emitter Off, Visible in Raytracing On.

To switch from IBL as lighting to IDL+EnvSphere as lighting, enable IDL, then EnvSphere Property Light Emitter to On.

If IDL is turned off, nothing you do will make the EnvSphere cast the light - it will come from IBL.

The most important thing is that the EnvSphere should not cast a shadow. That makes it block light from infinite lights.

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Okay, so I do mostly demos for characters. For another project I will be doing outdoor renders of a Post Apocalytpic nature. But in general right now I'm doing character demos for sale either at Rendo or Hivewire, which means the render has to look good right out of Poser with no post work (the way I like to operate most of the time). So, I have a white back drop, I have the floor turned on, and your Environment sphere. I have tried a to combine IBL with the Sphere AND some IDL for my renders, but it seems that I can't get that to combine. I have found that turning of Light Emitting on the sphere LOOKs like it lets me use the IBL, but I've never been sure. Could I get some help with this sort of set up????

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

So here's my EnvSphere screenshot. Right now this is IDL rendering only. I use mostly interior LDRs on my Sphere.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

My render settings.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

And the render. I would love to improve on this look if I can. And if I can add IBL to it as well for good effect.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: IBL: I don't get it