This subject came up again in the Hobby thread, so I just decided to give it it's own thread.

Apparently there seem to be two camps when it comes to Poser. Poser should concentrate more on Content vs. Poser should concentrate on Software. I happen to be that Poser should concentrate on what it does best... software. but here's the question I pose to you:

Assuming that one side or the other would suffer because of the choice, do you think Poser should concentrate more on content development or software development? The only rules of debate I really have to offer is that you're free to agree or disagree, but

don't make it personal (Unless you're heavily invested in SM stock there's no reason to), and:
Give a reason why you believe what you do, or disagree with ssomeone's opinion.
All the other rules of Rendo's TOS apply.

I think they should concentrate on software development. There is only so much a company can do. I’d rather have it be for the program itself as there are many content developers out there but only one developer of the poser program. If they focus on content the advancements in the software will lag.

I do appreciate the new figures that come out with each version as it gives us a chance to have someone that takes advantage of the new technology but with all the converters available, old content can be upgraded and converted to the new figures so having a ton of new things isn’t needed. I would like to see texture transformer or an equivalent integrated into poser and include many more figures.

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I use Poser 13 and win 10

Seems fairly simple. Except for Posette, none of the figures provided with the program have gained any popularity among the more artistic user base.

I understand the business reason for providing figures; it makes a "single-box purchase" attractive for companies that will be doing only a quick basic setup to create a poster or presentation.

If the latter is SmithMicro's main profit source, they should (and probably will) keep providing figures. If not, they should give up on a fruitless area of effort. I don't know which of these is true, but SM certainly knows.

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Well I would be firmly in the 'concentrate on software' camp. My reasons, easy, I purchased the last couple of upgrades for the features, such as Sub Surface Scattering, lighting improvements, a better morph tool, the fitting room and so many more. I never use the Poser figures and, other than primiatives, I rarely use any of the supplied content. It does not bother me as there are so many other places I can buy content.

I am not bothered that I am still using V4 and that it comes from Daz, although I now longer shop there. I do use the V4WM version as it does give me something that the non weightmapped version does not.

If you are into nudes and/or Photo Realistic renders I can understand why you might want a better figure but whether SM should spend time building it is another question. Unless it was a major step forward I would not pay for the next upgrade if that was the main thrust.

I often see Poser compared with other 3D programs where you pay a vast amount more which seems so unfair. If I use a car as a runabout that is good on petrol, passes it yearly check, rarely breaksdown and is easy to run why would I change. Why would I expect my runabout to out accelerate a sports car when I did not pay a sports car price. Why would I complain that Foda of Skord should build a faster car when what I have suits me and I know the latest and greatest engine would just take their product out of the price range of many.

Many people have a different view and I respect that but why do so many berate SM because they have a veiw also and stick to it. Why do so many say SM have to do this or they are lost, I would think keeping your present users while making your product within financial reach of many is a fair business stratagy. There are others that may be equally valid but to predict the doom of a product or company because they do not have the business model you prefer seems a little unfair.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

SM should definitely focus on software development as far as I am concerned. Without the proper tools, an artist is at a disadvantage and must work doubly hard to get the desired results. I've pretty much stopped using Poser because I have never been really satisfied with the results of my renders. Do I blame this all on Poser? Of course not - my skills using the program are not as advanced as many of the folks here on the forum. I've tried very hard to learn how to use Poser correctly, and I have had a lot of encouragement and great advice here on the forum. I am still dissatisfied with my results. I do not expect Poser to "do it all" for me, but i also think I shouldn't need a degree in software applications to produce a decent render. To be very honest, I achieve much better results with DAZ Studio because lighting, materials and just about everything I can think of works much better for me and is more intuitive in DAZ vs Poser. My concentration in the past couple of years has been on modeling and texturing because of my poor results using Poser. I have had Poser since Poser 7, and even though I now own Poser Pro 2010 and could easily afford to upgrade to Poser 2014, I will not do so because of these issues. I strongly believe that content should be created by the artist and the many great content developers I see here on Rendo and other sites. it is amazing to me what some of these people can accomplish, and my desire is to emulate them. I work towards that end results. With the many free applications available today, such as Wings 3D and Blender, there is a great deal that can be accomplished in content creation. It is the niche I have fallen into, and work towards good results every day. I use Poser/Daz to test my creations, and I have mixed results over the two apps. Is it just me and my inability to create proper mesh? Maybe, but I have to think that if Poser was a bit easier to work with and you didn't have to spend all your time messing with lighting and materials to get decent results, then everyone would be a bit better off. Let SM stick to improving their software. It is where they do the best work.

My 2 cents...

The SM team should concentrate on whatever avenues their own market research suggests would be most profitable.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

What SM needs to do is concentrate on the software itself, and contract out new figure development to another 'Zygote' like content maker. Then have the new figures beta'd in the community under NDA, with permission to create content to be allowed live at release.....and give the vendors about 6 months to play and create and have items for the program release and items for sale as their own. The markets would explode literally overnight, and =that= kind of advertisement is what a new figure needs. And frankly, I'd have 2-4 faces and leak them to the community, see how they react, before I decided on a 'look' for the new kids.

Also, I would basically forget about backwards compatibility....as in use animateable joint centers, weight maps, and scaling. Maybe even softbody. Build for the new program features, make the figure appealing and compelling, and you would get a lot more upgrades. Those who complain that the new goodies don't work in their perfectly good P4.....well too bad. Time marches on, and it makes no sense to hobble content to a decade old program whose only distribution channels now are the binaries groups on usenet and warez sites. Its gone, its dead, time to move on. Or else deal with the limitations. Oh and please make the figures anatomically correct. With sufficient polygons to allow any needed work from morphing instead of the barbie look. Place a toggle to hide the naughty bits if you must, but have them there.

Quote - I think they should concentrate on software development. There is only so much a company can do. I’d rather have it be for the program itself as there are many content developers out there but only one developer of the poser program. If they focus on content the advancements in the software will lag.

This. 100%

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Daz, Blender, Affinity, Substance, Unity, Python, C#

Software all the way.

With advances in software, even old DAZ figures (V4,V3 etc) can have SSS/subdivision because of the software.

Concentrating on Figures would divert the attention from the things we have received in previous updates like IDL,SSS, Faster Renders and so on.

Bill

People that know everything by definition can not learn anything

Content is too subjective, what one likes someone else will hate. Which means I think that Smith Micro should work on the program. However they should still include new figures to show off the new features. I also think they should be working on updating Rex and Roxie. I like they way the newest figures look. They have very nice details in the skins, little details such as the wrinkles in the joints of the fingers.

The problem with having vendors create content for a big launch would be who will you get? No one seems to want to make anything for new figures. The other problem with most vendors is they are grounded in the way of building from years past. That is clothing is conforming instead of dynamic, which limits items too mostly skin close and looking very much like the character. And the reason given is 100% of the people can use old tech and only 1% can use anything new. Even if you had 10,000 clothing items and 500 characters of every possible ethnic group, they would still be panned because they do not work with older versions or the other software whom shall not be named.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

"Software" means absolutely nothing without great figures to use it on.

90% of Poser users couldn't care less about IDL, IBL, weightmapping, SubD or SSS. Just look at the products currently made and bought. Not a single one that could be used for PP-2014 right out of the box. I spend more times reworking and fixing things to make them PP-2014 compatible than rendering.

Poser's "Do it yourself" mantra is a buisiness failure. How many people are really talented enough to use those fancy tools properly ?

How many people really have a full grasp of what the material room can do ?

How many people can weightmap a figure to a professional level ?

Sorry, Poser is not a "Poor man's MAX". It's first and foremost a hobbyist tool for those who want to render pretty pictures without too much fuzz.

DAZ understood that, that's why Genesis is so easy to use and easy to cater for. There is hardly any tech in Studio that isn't meant to improve Genesis.

Poser OTOH has lots of tech glued to it because it was cheap, easy to implement and looked cool in the advertising blurb. And then it still took several iterations before that "cool" tech actually worked like it was supposed to be.

Sorry, but I'd rather have a figure like Genesis without IDL, IBL, SSS, SubD and whatever else than all those things but be stuck with something like Roxy.

To put it bluntly: SSS and SubD and IBL and IDL don't sell Poser.

Vicky does.

That's why Poser is hemorrhaging users and Studio is top dog now.

DAZ says:

Here's Vicky 6 ! And once you're finshed admiring her, look at all the tech we implemented into Studio to make her look even better but still easy to use. And btw, it's FREE.

Poser on the other hand:

Here's some cool tech we picked up for free. If you work really, really hard and are really talented, you might be able to make Posette look almost as good as Vicky 4 some day. Sorta.

And it's all yours for just $499.

I have put 14 years of work into Poser, so I'm not eager to switch.

And thankfully, with just a few mouseclicks, I can have Poser AND a great figure like Genesis.

But if I were a new user just starting with CGI, choosing between Poser and Studio would be a no brainer.

You can buy lots of V6 content for $499.

Content or Software? Content & Software ... Both.
Software upgrades yearly.
Rox's n Rex's morph packs now.

============================================================

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Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

The fact is that they've been doing both for years now. The team itself concentrates on the software and they hire others for the content. The problem with that is they since they broke with Zygote/DAZ they've been hiring obscure artists for their figures.

Some of the figures have been OK, but most of them have been too outspoken in the way they look. There lies the whole problem..... while DAZ has more generic figures over the years, Poser comes with figures that are so stylized that it's very hard to break free from. Due to that, the figures aren't really usable. Above that it's clear that the poser team has an odd taste and quite a good number of their figures are outright ugly or weird.

The general users wants a generic figure they can use over and over again. On top of that the poser owners (not only SM) have failed to gain interest for their figures from vendors. The figures always have been looking like an after thought. With DAZ going their own way now with DS & Genesis, SM should have changed their view on content years ago. Why you would even release a figure you know hardly anybody will use and has no extra content at all year after year is still after all these years a mystery to me.

Knowing that figures for Poser aren't a after thought anymore at all, SM should have changed policy on this. Instead of using obsure figure creators that have a too strong outspoken style, they should have teamed up with a good one instead. After all these years we should have seen a figure that is on at least version 3 or 4 by now. There are some very talented figure developers in the community, but SM again and again seems to hire the unlikely ones. As for extra content for the figures, it doesn't need to be included with Poser, just be available at the time of Poser's release. Well, some should obviously be included with Poser, but most can be released seperately.

But.... the major issue most likely is time. Is a year enough time to develop some good figures, get vendors to create a good selection of items for them? No, most likely not.

If figures continue to be an after thought, then perhaps SM is better of focussing on the software instead and stop annoying us with meiocre figures. But obviously SM feels and knowns there's a need for figures to be included, so why not do it right instead?

We can all have an opinion about this, but in the end it doesn't matter. It's obvious that the majority of Poser users doesn't use the included figures, vendors refuse to support them and that SM after all these years still have no clue what their users want or like when it comes to figures.

Having said all this, the question is does SM still need to develop their own figures? I don't think so and here's my simple suggestion. Since Dawn is free, imo SM should include her with Poser, with some base content for her, beyond a bikini. Next, SM should support Hivewire3D financially in releasing a male figure and working on Dawn V2. This way they at least support and include figures a lot more users do like and that have a lot more support then whatever they release. Why not make use of the stengths that are in the poser world already, instead of continually trying to invent the wheel yourself? This would seriously be my suggestion. If SM can spent money on hiring a developer, they may as well spent the money on working together with Hivewire3D and their further developments.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Dawn's mesh geometry is just as amateurish as Roxy's, so hiring Hivewire would simply mean "Out of the frying pan and into the fire".

The only figures with acceptable mesh geometry currently are the DAZ meshes.

Unless SM finds a modeller able to create a similar versatile mesh topopology as Genesis has, all attempts to "improve" Roxy or Dawn or whatever other mesh out there are simply a waste of time and will just prolong the sufferring.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2878970

A more detailed explanation why I neither want Roxy nor Dawn in Poser:

I seem but that still doesn't make Genesis work natively in Poser, no matter how smart her mesh is ;)

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - I seem but that still doesn't make Genesis work natively in Poser, no matter how smart her mesh is ;)

Smart topology has nothing to do with the software or platform you're making it for. It is just as valid in Poser as it is in DS, or Max, or Maya, or C4D or any game engine, or any other program.

It's about understanding edgeflow, how geometry works in rigging/animation and how to properly represent human (or whatever other creature) anatomy.

~Shane

Don't know why but I have a strange feeling of Déjà vu.

Quote - Poser OTOH has lots of tech glued to it because it was cheap, easy to implement and looked cool in the advertising blurb. And then it still took several iterations before that "cool" tech actually worked like it was supposed to be.

To be fair, isn't that how most software evolves?

SubD first appeared in DS3, as just another menu item, 5 or 6 years ago.

Another example, SSS has been in DS for many years but we only got an 'easy to use' shader a few months ago. (pure coincidence that it was when SSS arrived in Poser!) :rolleyes:

regards
prixat

Quote - I seem but that still doesn't make Genesis work natively in Poser, no matter how smart her mesh is ;)

JP does use V6 natively in Poser; see his Hacking Vicky threads.

As far as new features go, There shoudl be models included that utilise the new features, but they should be good quality, which has been a problem in the past. The G2 figures looked good, and E-Frontier supported the figures well with clothes and worked wuth RDNA to brovide morph packages.. Unfortunately, there were serious problems with the meshes included with Poser 7 that should have been caught in testing, and which could not be rectified without breaking much existing content...

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Quote - Dawn's mesh geometry is just as amateurish as Roxy's, so hiring Hivewire would simply mean "Out of the frying pan and into the fire".

The only figures with acceptable mesh geometry currently are the DAZ meshes.

Unless SM finds a modeller able to create a similar versatile mesh topopology as Genesis has, all attempts to "improve" Roxy or Dawn or whatever other mesh out there are simply a waste of time and will just prolong the sufferring.

Didn't Chris Creek model Vicky as well as Dawn? Why would you call it amatuerish?

"Didn't Chris Creek model Vicky as well as Dawn? Why would you call it amatuerish?"

Because of Dawn's "dumb" topology that doesn't allow detailed morphing. That doesn't have a proper, anatomically correct muscle layout.

BTW, AFAIK Chris Creek did Michael 1/2. Which has an excellent topology.

That's why I'm more surprised than anyone that Dawn's mesh is such a mess.

She has 10.000 polygons more than Vicky/Mike-6. One should be able to literally "morph circles" around Genesis-2. She could have been THE GREATEST POSER FIGURE EVER with a mesh topology like Genesis.

Either he forgot everything he knew about mesh topology, or all he did was the sculpting of Michael 1/2 but not the actual mesh layout back then.

I don't know. I don't actually care. Hivewire had their chance, they blew it.

Unless something better comes along, I concentrate on Genesis-2 and my own figures.

@ the OP, Ask yourself a simple question, if there was no DSON importer and the CR2 exporter in DS couldn't handle WM, what figure(s) would most of the user base be using now?

Quote - @ the OP, Ask yourself a simple question, if there was no DSON importer and the CR2 exporter in DS couldn't handle WM, what figure(s) would most of the user base be using now?

The same they are using now M4/V4 :)

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Topology is a dying art. Used to be, a modeller would have to think about edge flow, and add edge loops logically and strategically, to create surface profiles that closely represented the underlying musculature of the organism they were modeling. Deformations would then be realistic, and smooth. It took a lot of SKILL, and some effort, for someone to master this kind of edge control. It was always easy to spot an amateur modeller vs. a pro, just by looking at how they laid out the edge flow on human models.

Nowadays, Zbrush and other mesh sculpting software, have caused modellers to forget about that kind of attention to topology. Now you can simply sculpt your model with as much detail as you wish, and Zbrush can automatically retopologize the dense, triangle mesh with a more simple quad surfaces (Zremesher), giving you a model that can be rigged and animated (posed) much easier. The problem with automated retopology is that it's not always perfect, and if you don't know about edge flow, and can't manually correct the results in a traditional modelling app, then your character is not going to have the edge loops and topology necessary for great deformations and morphing. Unfortunately, most of today's organic models are created this way, and people are just remeshing them in one simple automated process, instead of by hand. SO you get models that have less than great edge flow, and can't morph or deform as well as you might exepect.

It's critical to remember that no matter how advanced some applications become, a human touch often provides the best end product. Retopology, by hand, is still far more reliable than a one-click solution. People need to realize, edge flow is still important in 3D, and not just for animation, but morphing too. It seems fewer people these days care about mesh craftsmanship. Just because someone is great at sculpting an object in Zbrush doesn't necessarily mean they understand how to create good topology. There's more to modelling than just creating an object that looks great in a few still renders.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Quote - > Quote -

@ the OP, Ask yourself a simple question, if there was no DSON importer and the CR2 exporter in DS couldn't handle WM, what figure(s) would most of the user base be using now?

The same they are using now M4/V4 :)

Exactly, old figures that use old tech, it makes you wonder why SM waste money on new tech that only a small percentage of the user base will ever use. If SM isn't going to support TriAx WM and the DSON codebase, then they need to "bite the bullet" and concentrate on both software & content, they need to create figures that not only use all of the bells & whistles available in Poser, but that are also nice enough to work with right out of the box rather than being fugly as hell. They then need to hire content makers to churn out clothing, hair and character sets for them, basically flood the marketplace, which is basically what DAZ does.

Well stated maxxmodelz.

I equate building topology with putting together a 20,000+ piece puzzle.

I pretty much never use zremesher, except when I'm building a base shape for sculpting, never for a final mesh. There's just no way to control topology when it's automated, even with the guide tools that zb provides for it.

~Shane

Exactly, old figures that use old tech, it makes you wonder why SM waste money on new tech that only a small percentage of the user base will ever use.

If SM isn't going to support TriAx WM and the DSON codebase, then they need to "bite the bullet" and concentrate on both software & content, they need to create figures that not only use all of the bells & whistles available in Poser, but that are also nice enough to work with right out of the box rather than being fugly as hell. They then need to hire content makers to churn out clothing, hair and character sets for them, basically flood the marketplace, which is basically what DAZ does.

Weight mapping works with V4 as does subdivision,IDL,SSS, the fitting room and so on. I keep hearing that V4 is a 'old' figure but I do not see any evidence that the newer figures provide anything exceptionally more than the older figures. What is more, all these new features work in Poser, with my exisiting content, without any strange bolt on afterthought reworks. Despite what others say there are some of us who are happy with Poser and the new features and do not see any reason for SM to change thier business model. Sure there are prophets of doom but like all such prophets the future shown is based in fiction rather than fact along with a healthy amount of personal bias.

You guys have made some great points, especially those of you who seem, in theory, at least, to know about topology and edge flow. Here's where I diverge from you though. Poser has made the software, and given you the tools and the features to use. However, Poser has always depended on third party principles to create the content. That hasn't changed. What you want, however, is for Poser, SM to go the whole distance and make the figure for you as well. So what i don't understand is why don't one of you step forward and create this great and perfect 3d figure yourself? I swear, if I knew how, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Talk is cheap. Let's see some action.

There's only one perfect Quad SubD mesh. A RING.
All other shapes have flaws even a Quad SubD cube is flawed.
SubD meshes have been around since the start of CGI Max 1,LW 1.early 1990's .long before pro 14.
Some app's would turn tri's to quads but some didn't but now about all turn tri's to quads.
Have I ever modeled a Quad SubD mesh that I was 100% happy with the topology ? ah no.
Do I personally agree with V6 ,Dawn ,Rox's Quad SubD topology 100% ? ah no.
But there still all killer meshes.
Chris Creek is a CGI God.

Early 1990's Poser started out as a 2d reference app .a virtual models for Artist.
over time it's morphed in to what it is today.

A major flaw in Poser & DAZ Studio is.
They can not create anything so user are dependent on stores.
If it's not in the store ,What use is Poser & DAZ Studio ?

Another major flaw in Poser & DAZ Studio is.
If the software is out dated ,What use is Poser & DAZ Studio ?

Specking of out dated software ,you really would have thought buy 2014 .
There would be a lot better texturing software.
Texturing software is the definition of out dated.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"So what i don't understand is why don't one of you step forward and create this great and perfect 3d figure yourself?"

Well, I could do the basic rigging for $15.000. (Animated joint centers for morphs are extra)

Perhaps Shane could do the topology fo a similar sum ?

(I suggest to start with one of Infinite Realities photometric scans to get the basic sculpt and proportions right. Or use those as character morphs and keep the base shape 100% generic like Genesis.)

Then we need morphs. A full set of expression morphs, hmm, maybe $10.000 + $5000 per additional bodymorph ? Does that sound good to you, maxxxmodelz ?

Need a good texturer and UV-mapper, too.

I guess $5000 for the UV-layout, $5000 for the base texture and $2000 per "Add on" texture.

Oh wait, you thought someone would do a professional level Poser figure that could rival Genesis out of the goodliness of his heart ?

Well, good luck then.

:-)

Quote - You guys have made some great points, especially those of you who seem, in theory, at least, to know about topology and edge flow. Here's where I diverge from you though. Poser has made the software, and given you the tools and the features to use. However, Poser has always depended on third party principles to create the content. That hasn't changed. What you want, however, is for Poser, SM to go the whole distance and make the figure for you as well. So what i don't understand is why don't one of you step forward and create this great and perfect 3d figure yourself? I swear, if I knew how, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Talk is cheap. Let's see some action.

EClark1894 :Max & Mudbox will solve any and all your probleams for any mesh.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Software please.

I am: aka Velocity3d

I would want SM to concentrate on the software, with the proviso that they do supply rigged dolls. Rigged people are beyond the capabilities of all but a few end users, plus we need common base dolls if we are to make content for each other.

Instead of completely new dolls with each release, I would prefer SM to develop, refine, and perfect a set of dolls incrementally. That is, each Poser release would see an updated/improved edition of a standard Poser doll chassis set.

That being said, I think they are wise to supply all that content -including the legacy dolls- with a purchase of Poser. It gives the newbie a good start on building a library.

Poser 12, in feet.

OSes: Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

lol @ joe.

I actually wouldn't charge nearly that much, but would jump on it if someone made a serious offer.

Question though, for those in the know: how much of Poser's features are original coding? It's my understanding that the majority of it is open source plug-ins that have been customized for use in Poser. Is that correct or am I completely wrong on that assumption?

~Shane

Quote - You guys have made some great points, especially those of you who seem, in theory, at least, to know about topology and edge flow. Here's where I diverge from you though. Poser has made the software, and given you the tools and the features to use. However, Poser has always depended on third party principles to create the content. That hasn't changed. What you want, however, is for Poser, SM to go the whole distance and make the figure for you as well. So what i don't understand is why don't one of you step forward and create this great and perfect 3d figure yourself? I swear, if I knew how, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Talk is cheap. Let's see some action.

Well, in my case, I don't play video games anymore, so I actually use Poser as more of a "pass-time". It's just a fun, easy way to play around with some 3D stuff. I've modelled my own character in 3dsMax years ago, and continue to improve and expand on it with my own morphs, clothing, etc., which I model myself. I use that as the basis for most of my commercial, commissioned renders or animation needs, and all my serious work. I don't have time to model yet another character to offer for Poser, because I'm only using Poser at at this point in my spare time, as a way to relax and have some fun. I took down all my Poser renders (except for one) because I use most of my own models now. I couldn't keep up with all the copyright and EULA crap that is tied up with stock models these days. You can use this one for commercial renders, but not that one, etc. I might use Poser now as a way to screw around with some concepts or ideas, if I feel like playing with different human characters, like some might use a video game, to unwind and clear their head. It also helps when you are lacking inspiration or get burned out. Then when I'm ready to seriously create something again, i don't use Poser.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Quote - lol @ joe.

I actually wouldn't charge nearly that much, but would jump on it if someone made a serious offer.

Question though, for those in the know: how much of Poser's features are original coding? It's my understanding that the majority of it is open source plug-ins that have been customized for use in Poser. Is that correct or am I completely wrong on that assumption?

~Shane

A large majority of Poser functionality comes from our team. There are a few obvious external components, such as Pixar Subdivision and Bullet Physics (implementation is a bear by the way - real work, and the Bullet guys think we did one of the best implementations they've seen). Conversely, the technology for the Fitting Room is revolutionary. Bootomline, there's a long list of features that emanate from within. There's a much smaller number of features that we rely on via third party components. The attribution in the front of Poser manual provides more detail.

FWIW, I've tried to reach out to JP about project work or feedback as a part of the beta team but he doesn't seem to want to repsond to my inquiries. Unless he's using another name, I can't find any responses to my messages. My apologies in advance JP if I did miss a response from you.

Great thread BTW.

Cooper

Awesome. Thanks for the quick response on that Steve.

I need to remember not to get my info from angry jaded forum posters. lol. But that's why I asked.

~Shane

So in the never ending bashing of all things new (and it was better before! ;), today is it fabulous zRemesher tool turn to stand in the Straffstock. And as always, it is 100% here or 100% there. Either you do all by hand or you let ZBrush do all with a simple click. LOL

But in reality, for practical people, in real life there is never 100% here or there but somewhere in between. You can control the topology of ZRemesher by the simple expedient of making holes in the mesh (boolean cuts). The edge flow will be forced the way you want by pure brutality, so to speak. Then you have to fill the holes manually -true, but still a great time saver.

Not bashing zremesher vintorix. Stating the shortcomings of a tool is not bashing the tool.

Zremesher does not give you precise control over topology and its tooltips even state this. Using curves only enfluences where the mesh will be drawn, it's no guarantee that all curves will be adhered to, and zbrush itself warns against setting the curve slider too high as you risk creating "topology restrictions that are impossible to resolve".

It's a fine tool for certain functions. Large areas that don't need a lot of directional changes is what I use it for. But trying to use it to create things like facial topology is futile. There's no way you can accurately define topology in ears or nostrils, or proper folds around eyelids, and for me it always creates unwanted triangles in random places that I'll have to go back and sort out all the geometry in the area by hand just to get rid of. I prefer having complete control over my mesh, down to every single polygon. I hate having unnecessary geometry. If I want a mesh that has exactly 21,384 polys or just 756 polys, I can do that much easier in topogun or by hand in another app like maya or blender. I can't determine exact polycount with zremesher, i just have to work with what it gives me.

Plus, I actually enjoy laying out topology a lot of the time. Like I said earlier, for me it's like working a giant puzzle, with no road map, just a general guide based on how I know the mesh should be. It can be extremely frustrating at times, but I tend to enjoy the mental challenge of it.

~Shane

Quote -Instead of completely new dolls with each release, I would prefer SM to develop, refine, and perfect a set of dolls incrementally. That is, each Poser release would see an updated/improved edition of a standard Poser doll chassis set.

I've been saying this for years. It's much more cost-effective as well, than building entirely new meshes each time. Just refine the best ones of the bunch. It would go a long way in furthering the Poser brand as well, imo, if it had figures that stood out and really exemplified what Poser is actually capable of. No reason why the content can't be as good as the software.

~Shane

you can place loops where you want them in mudbox retopology

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

For the record, there is no anger here involved nor was there anything personal. (But I don't want to publicly discuss who sent what emails when to whom.)

I just tell things like I see them, and I don't see Poser currently being as attractive as Studio without either a high end mesh of its own or full native Genesis compatibility.

(Although personally I can't understand the reluctance of installing and using the DSON-importer many users have. It's easier than using some Python scripts. I even think "poserizing" Genesis like I did is less work than "poserizing" a lot of other "non-Poser" stuff. Ever tried making a SketchUp object look good in Poser ?)

Yes, Poser has a lot of neat features, some free, some quite expensive, but I stay with my assertion that quite a few of them are not really important to the average user, thus adding nothing to Poser's general desireability.

Yes, there are nerds out there who want to do their own thing, (Like me.), but the vast majority wants to load-pose-render pretty wimmenfolk.

(Actually I only started the endless sculpting, tweaking, rigging rigmarole because 14 years ago there wasn't a figure like Genesis around)

If people are happy with the figures they use, so be it.

I just think the "Poserverse" as a whole is too small to be split up into a gazillion fractions. I just think we all could be much more productive if we all could gather around a single figure. I just think this part of the CGI universe is too fragile to survive without that kind of stability. Merchants need high volume sales and they can't get them if everyone uses a different figure.

I posted this before, but I think I should post this again:

If both a high end native Poser mesh as well as full TriAx compatibility are "out of the question", why not ship Poser with the DSON-importer pre-installed ?

And persuade DAZ to ship "Poser friendly" .zip files that install without the dreaded "content" folder. Or let them make a python installer that auto-deletes the content folder, installing Genesis files directly into a Poser runtime.

I think this would significantly lower the threshold for many users to "Go Genesis".

When Genesis first came out, I asked why didn't DAZ just "Poserize" a version for Poser users. You've demonstrated that it can be done, Joe. I could do it myself. But screw that. If DAZ won't go thru the trouble to just make a cr2 version of Genesis for Poser, why do I need to jump through any hoops to do it myself?

I'm not a mesh perfectionist like you, and until I learn more, wouldn't know good topology from bad anyway. I'd say about 95% of Poser users fall into that category as well.

The native Poser users have a bad reputation, and most people when they're first starting out hear about Vicky or Genesis and they decide that's what they want to use. On their own, they're like me and wouldn't know good topology from bad.

I myself like Roxie. Dawn's not bad except for that "man chin" she has, but even so, both she and Roxie can be morphed, just like Genesis and V5/6 are going to be. It's no more trouble to morph one than it is the other.

Quote - When Genesis first came out, I asked why didn't DAZ just "Poserize" a version for Poser users. You've demonstrated that it can be done, Joe. I could do it myself. But screw that. If DAZ won't go thru the trouble to just make a cr2 version of Genesis for Poser, why do I need to jump through any hoops to do it myself?

Support; there would need to be Python scripts written to add morphs. Also, Genesis 1 wouldn't have been compatible; Conforming of clothing to figures with animated joint centres didn't work until Poser 9 SR2, IIRC. Both DAZ and SM rushed Studio 4.0 and Poser 9 out due to business deadlines, not because the technology was ready.

However, I will say I was expecting a Poser version of Genesis 2 when DAZ released seperate male and female figures, but that has obviously not been the case thus far...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

Quote - So in the never ending bashing of all things new (and it was better before! ;), today is it fabulous zRemesher tool turn to stand in the Straffstock. And as always, it is 100% here or 100% there. Either you do all by hand or you let ZBrush do all with a simple click. LOL But in reality, for practical people, in real life there is never 100% here or there but somewhere in between. You can control the topology of ZRemesher by the simple expedient of making holes in the mesh (boolean cuts). The edge flow will be forced the way you want by pure brutality, so to speak. Then you have to fill the holes manually -true, but still a great time saver.

I'm in disbelief that anyone would think Zbrush was getting bashed here. No wonder activity in the forums has declined.

Zremesher IS wonderful, and a great time saver. No one said it wasn't. Still, anyone modelling human figures intended for any kind of deformation or rigging would stand to benefit from learning how good topology works, and why. There's still more to it than pressing a button, even with Zremesher. Even when Zbrush allows you to define edge loops in the remesher, you'd still benefit as an artist/modeller to know where to actually place the edge loops, how to optimize, and where to terminate them. Sadly, many of today's artists do not want to educate themselves about topology, and why it's important. NO ONE is saying it's one way or another. Quite the opposite of that actually.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Where would i go to learn more about mesh topology?

When Joe says 'poserizing Genesis' does that actually mean retaining everything it can do in DS?

regards
prixat

Quote - Where would i go to learn more about mesh topology?

This might be a good starting point, it's for Blender, but topology is pretty much software independent.

http://cgcookie.com/blender/cgc-courses/learning-mesh-topology-collection/

(Editied to add the link - DUH!)

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

Can I join in with a recently returning Poser users opinion?

I noticed Steve has joined in so I'm hoping he'll get to read what I have to say on the matter of Poser, and which direction I think he should push it.

For the most part I think the Poser developers are doing a good job, however, I hope they never loose sight of what it is, and why it is they can compete with DAZ Studio even though DS is free, and Poser has a price tag.

The reasons I think Poser is doing well:
First of all they never give it away, and therefore, never alienate paying customers by doing so (I literally cringed when DAZ announced they were giving away DS Pro).

Second, they've had the good sense to retain the 'meat' of what I remember as Metacreations Poser, and that's a good thing (vital even). There's a reason the Poser and Bryce interfaces have such a fan club; it's because they're not vanilla os-based interfaces, they're task-specific designs developed and created by very talanted people. If they ever go to a 'vanilla' interface, Poser will go downhill quicker than a teflon-coated ball of lead. Usability is what attracts people over to Poser even if they don't think so, remove that and Poser would be just another infuriating vanilla-based interface to struggle with.

Things that I think need desperate improvement:
In a word, animation. After coming back to Poser I'm totally bewildered at how antiquated the walk designer still is. We're still looking at a tiny undockable screen, non-fluid movement, limited abilities and all those issues are unacceptable for a "figure animation" program in current times. It would be cool to see some love shown to animaton, some real love, such as adding power to the Walk Designer and giving it it's own room, just like Materials and Cloth do.

I look at the way Reallusion have given the ability to design walks, puppet body movement, and blend them at will. I feels hard to take when I compare this power to Poser and realise how far behind it's fallen in this area.

Steve, you get to implement stuff from the high-end apps and I think you do it very well, I absolutely agree with you on that. I only hope that you'll put that expertise into the animation area as well, because seriously, Poser desperately needs some form of up-to-date 'motion-building' system. DAZ with their 'Puppeteer' and 'AniMate' system, and Reallusion with their 'Motion Editing' are simply light-years ahead of Poser. For stills work I would use Poser any day (because you got that aspect of the program pretty much perfect). But for animation, nope, that's a different story.

One final thing; I really must compliment the Poser team on the Firefly Renderer. I'm one of those obsessed with messing around with such things and I like Firefly so much I might not even bother with an Octane plugin.

That's praise indeed considering I own an Octane licence!

"Sadly, many of today's artists do not want to educate themselves about topology, and why it's important"

That is what we hear, day after day, week after week, year after year in this forum. You are preaching for the choir.
However none of all these people has ever shown that they can do better and neither have anyone from Poser.

(Better than Daz that is)

Quote - When Joe says 'poserizing Genesis' does that actually mean retaining everything it can do in DS?

No, it won't do everything. UV switching and HD morphs are lost, for example. Possibly losing the ability to load in new morphs after the "poserized" figure is made, depending on how the figure is set up... for instance if dson isn't being used to scan for new morphs.

Quote - "

Vendor support. If you noticed in the store here, a lot of the V4 (for example) morphs and clothing don't have materials for both DS and Poser for various reasons. Now imagine the support effort to rig something twice and set up morphs twice. That's a lot of work for the return they would get. The figure would end up being lopsided towards one platform or another. DAZ recognized that putting the burden on the vendor wouldn't work in the long term so that's why there hasn't been a poser version. You can always look at Dawn as a case study of providing a model for each application and see their concerns being reality. DSON, although not perfect, does allow a vendor to make something once and have it work in both applications with just about all the same features, rather than one item having one set of features in one app then one set in another.

Quote - Sadly, many of today's artists do not want to educate themselves about topology, and why it's important.

To be honest.... I don't think most artist do even need it. It's way beyond what they need and desire. Does an artist need to know everything, no they don't. I know enough people here that know everything when it comes to 3D yet their art is so poor. I rather be an artist who has no knowledge of topology and create beautiful art, then weary myself with knowledge I have no need for and doesn't improve my art at all.

Yes, I knew my fair share of topology and retopolgy. I do say knew on purpose..... it's been a while that I've used 3DCoat or used it in Hexagon. As an artist I don't have need for it at all. As a content creator, yes it's handy to know, but even then you can create some good stuff without having any knowledge about it.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - That is what we hear, day after day, week after week, year after year in this forum. You are preaching for the choir.
However none of all these people has ever shown that they can do better and neither have anyone from Poser.

(Better than Daz that is)

Well, that depends on what you mean by "showing" they can do better. In my case, I've posted my models in other forums, and I did have a gallery of my original work here at one time. I took it down for personal reasons. That's neither here nor there when it comes to what we are discussing. It's not the fact that people keep saying stuff about topology, it's the fact that the people who DO model things for poser don't seem to listen. It's not like we're lying about good topology, and why it's important. It's not a myth.

I don't think Daz, as a company, make bad models. I think the models Daz puts out are actually modelled very well for what they do. Genesis is a great mesh. I didn't even suggest anything about Poser models specifically, except for the fact that there are people out there who think sculpting something, then slapping a quick Zremesher on it, is good enough for a character model. That's something Poser users SHOULD be concerned about, that there's actually modellers out there who believe this.

Poor topology can result in all sorts of issues down the line. It can make it difficult to rig the model correctly, it can result in poor UV mapping, and it can even result in render issues. Did you ever have a model that rendered fine in Firefly, but then you bring it into Luxrender or Octane, and suddenly you see problems, like self-shadowing, black spots, or other strange artifacts? You might think that's due to lighting or materials, or render settings, but it can be a result of poor topology (ngons, skinny polys, or insufficient subdivision).

If the choir is preaching, there might be a reason.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Once again I ask, if the vendors don't want to do it, and they're getting paid, even if they don't think it's worth it, why the heck do they expect me to do it for them and have to pay for the privilege? That's one of the reasons I never adopted V4WM even though I did download her. I didn't feel like converting all those clothes. I've never disagreed with Joe about Genesis being a great figure platform... mesh... thingy, or whatever the heck the correct term is, but I just have to jump through too many not worth it hoops to do it, when there are other figures available for me to use. Granted, they're not Genesis, but for me they don't have to be.

"except for the fact that there are people out there who think sculpting something, then slapping a quick Zremesher on it, is good enough for a character model. "

I am sorry to say this, but-

I don't believe you.

It has the ring of an urban myth

Quote - As a content creator, yes it's handy to know, but even then you can create some good stuff without having any knowledge about it.

So are you saying it's ok to be a model vendor, and take people's hard earned money, without ANY knowledge of topology? Please read my post above. As a modeller, if you want to produce consistantly high quality work, you need to learn at least something about how your craft works, beyond just learning how to use a particular software. There's fundamental principals to geometry that are at work in 3D.

If you are going to model stuff for Poser, and don't care to learn even the basics about topology, it's not a great idea to become a model vendor.. Just because someone can fix a leak doesn't make them a plumber.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Quote - "except for the fact that there are people out there who think sculpting something, then slapping a quick Zremesher on it, is good enough for a character model. "

Quote - As a content creator, yes it's handy to know, but even then you can create some good stuff without having any knowledge about it.

Quote - I am sorry to say this, but- I don't believe you.

It has the ring of an urban myth

Oh really?

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Yes. Perhaps you have an example?

The greatest of the greatest (IMO) Content Creators I know of, is Xurge. I was at one of his web seminars. He is completely untechnical, model with Nurbs (Rhino) and don't know to edit a Bezier curve in Photoshop. The conversion to polygons is automatic, he have no real control over the meshflow.

Quote - Once again I ask, if the vendors don't want to do it, and they're getting paid, even if they don't think it's worth it, why the heck do they expect me to do it for them and have to pay for the privilege? That's one of the reasons I never adopted V4WM even though I did download her. I didn't feel like converting all those clothes. I've never disagreed with Joe about Genesis being a great figure platform... mesh... thingy, or whatever the heck the correct term is, but I just have to jump through too many not worth it hoops to do it, when there are other figures available for me to use. Granted, they're not Genesis, but for me they don't have to be.

Creating two separate models isn't a solution, standardizing on one is. Using the DSON importer works towards that goal, having the import functions natively read in Poser would be the best solution. Since the best solution doesn't seem likely, then you have the importer to someone have one figure with most of the same capabilities rather than two with separate features. Putting the burden on vendors to make both doesn't work, you can look through hivewire's store to see how this is panning out, even with their service to convert the items for you.

Honestly don't understand the "hoop jumping" catchphrases so many people that have not attempted try it use. I used one of the early versions and got it working on the first try. I spent last weekend working with M6 in Poser, and it wasn't that bad; in fact the only issue I had is getting the lighting correct. And looking through the gallery I'm seeing more people doing Poser renders using V6 and even some more vendors producing Genesis 2 items in this store... I about fainted when I saw the M6 spotlight last week.

Quote - Where would i go to learn more about mesh topology?

This get complicated and confusing.
Methods change as app's get better but for now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpVCvgvzR_I
You can use this for game meshes or SubD meshes with vector maps.

Game meshes will be 100% Tri'ed when finalized. Have normal maps instead of vector maps.

SubD meshes you model or retopologize with mainly loops to have a good flow.
All the edges flowing in the same direction. See Roxie for a good example.
V1's Posetta was not modeled to be SubDed.

for character you just model in C4D they start at 5000 polygons with most Quads but some Tri's.
You SubD once makes poly count 20,000 and 100% Quads. the mesh is finalized

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - > Quote - As a content creator, yes it's handy to know, but even then you can create some good stuff without having any knowledge about it.

So are you saying it's ok to be a model vendor, and take people's hard earned money, without ANY knowledge of topology? Please read my post above. As a modeller, if you want to produce consistantly high quality work, you need to learn at least something about how your craft works, beyond just learning how to use a particular software. There's fundamental principals to geometry that are at work in 3D.

If you are going to model stuff for Poser, and don't care to learn even the basics about topology, it's not a great idea to become a model vendor.. Just because someone can fix a leak doesn't make them a plumber.

I've been modeling for Poser for many years now and none of my customers have ever complained about my lack of topology knowledge ;) Yes, it's OK to model without having an extensive knowledge about certain things. You can create content for poser without having a knowledge about topolgy and from looking at various items I've bought over the years, a lot of vendors have no clue about that.

If I have to follow everyone's rule and demands, I might as well stop modeling, it's not going to be fun. This community can be so pushy.... you have to use weight mapping..... gamma correction is a must..... without topology your modeling is no good..... if you don't have an extensive knowledge about the material room you will never get anywhere as a vendor or poser users..... I can go on and on. If I'm going to live by everyone's demand I may as well stop doing what I'm doing, I will have to time left to do anything at all. At times I just want to have fun doing things without getting boggled down by all the ins and outs.

An just to let you in on a little secret..... not every vendor is using sculpting or zBrush and the likes in their workflow, but please, keep that to yourself. God forbid that not everyone in the world is sculpting, using zBrush, Photoshop and whatever big name or technique you can think off :P You would be amazed how far old school 3D modeling and texturing still gets you these days and plenty of people/vendors still using it.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Believe it or not, aeilkema, I agree with you for the most part. It's not necessary to use Zbrush. It's not even necessary to know all there is about topology. However, this is why a fundamental understanding of edge flow is important...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_S1INdEmdI

Someone without any knowledge about how to properly model a human face, for example, will likely end up with a model that will not deform properly with expression morphs, contain artifacts, and render issues. Anyone can sculpt a box into the shape of a face, but will it be able to smile, and emote without artifacts? This is what i'm suggesting some people don't get, and how it can be bad for creating characters in Poser, especially now that we have new features like Pixar subdivision. I'm not saying you NEED formal training, and sure, some static models can do just fine with ngons and any old topological order. Cartoon or NPR characters, for example, can break the rules of edge flow, and still be just fine. However, if you're modelling realistic characters, and want them to morph or animate, or even rig easily, then topology becomes an issue.

I suggest anyone who "doesn't believe" topology matters, watch that video for evidence of just a few reasons why it does. There's other reasons too, like rendering with Path Tracing, where long, unsupported edges can cause render artifacts or black spots, etc., etc. Or rendering with Poser's own IDL, where overlapping edges, or single-sided geometry can cause issues.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Need more evidence topology is important for Poser? Here's a thread from the WIngs3D forum, where a talented modeller was having artifact issues, and it was due to the topology.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=4117062&ebot_calc_page#message_4117062

I can point to tons of evidence of how important topology is from other modelling forums as well, but do you really need more evidence? This should be self-evident by now. As someone on the previous page said, it sounds like urban myth? Good topology is not a myth.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

SM hafta do both - keep updating poser and provide models that work with poser. they also need to lose any pre-2010 shaders that are still in content IMVHO.

Quote -      I would want SM to concentrate on the software, with the proviso that they do supply rigged dolls. Rigged people are beyond the capabilities of all but a few end users, plus we need common base dolls if we are to make content for each other.

     Instead of completely new dolls with each release, I would prefer SM to develop, refine, and perfect a set of dolls incrementally. That is, each Poser release would see an updated/improved edition of a standard Poser doll chassis set.

     That being said, I think they are wise to supply all that content -including the legacy dolls- with a purchase of Poser. It gives the newbie a good start on building a library.

I think they should keep the legacy content they have been providing, no reason to discard it. But I also think it should be a separate install that is clearly marked as legacy content.

Beyond that I think they should update the legacy figures to current standards. I've been told that it would be too much work, but I don't understand how as it seems that work has already been done. I just wish the Poser figures that shipped with the installer were what an experienced user would update them to be. I know many of the older figures have been weight mapped and most of them have several morph sets available, and EZskin would take care of the rest. Also, I'd package them under their "proper" names eg. Posette, Jessi, Judy etc.

I don't quite get this software vs. content idea though... It's only when new features like SSS, weight mapping etc. are added that the limitations of pre-existing figures becomes apparent.

"Good topology is not a myth."

Hasn't it occurred to you that it is a bit thick to pontificate of topology in a place that to a large part is occupied by professional or semi-professional modelers?

Quote -If I have to follow everyone's rule and demands, I might as well stop modeling, it's not going to be fun. This community can be so pushy.... you have to use weight mapping..... gamma correction is a must..... without topology your modeling is no good..... if you don't have an extensive knowledge about the material room you will never get anywhere as a vendor or poser users..... I can go on and on. If I'm going to live by everyone's demand I may as well stop doing what I'm doing, I will have to time left to do anything at all. At times I just want to have fun doing things without getting boggled down by all the ins and outs.

That's a rather stubborn way to look at it, and is quite self-limiting as a modeler.

There are industry standards when it comes to modeling and topology that should be adhered to for a number of reasons. Primarily being cross-platform compatibility and ease of use.

It should be obvious by now that many people don't limit themselves to just using Poser. They port the models they use to any number of other programs to animate and render.

So when there's no consistency in the construction of the models, it creates a huge mess trying to sort out what models will work best in this package or not in that package.

When I buy content built by someone else I always check out how clean the mesh is. If it's a sloppy mesh I won't buy from that vendor again, no matter how pretty their model might look in Poser, because I know I'll be limited in where and how I can use it in the future, should I ever choose to. So while it may work just fine in Poser, it can be a nightmare in Maya or some other package if the mesh construction is crap. It also tells me the artist really doesn't care much about his work, and if he doesnt, why should I? There are plenty of other modelers I can buy from, and won't have the headache of having to fix their mess before I can use the model.

A modeler should make his work appealing and usuable in as many situations as possible to maximize his customer base. It's not rocket science or brain surgery. There's a number of ways to build geometry that's clean and that animates and functions properly just by following a few guidelines and being consistent with them, and it doesn't have to be an inspiration killer. Once you learn the established techniques it becomes second nature to follow them.

But that's just my advice. No one's forcing you to do anything you don't want. You can hand code your objs or paint with your elbows if that's what makes you happy.

~Shane

The feature that I most want in Poser, that I most long for is baking. Imagine to be able to bake a complicated shader node setup into a nice map. That can I do in C4D.

With both ZBrush and Marvelous Designer along with C4D modelling is a breeze. It is the texturing that takes 90% of the time.

I judge a modeler after his texturing. Only a stark beginner doesn't understand the importance of a nice (quad) topology. But expertice in baking and all kinds of maps, in the usage of these new tools like nDo and dDo, substance designer and xNormal is hard to come by.

Quote - Hasn't it occurred to you that it is a bit thick to pontificate of topology in a place that to a large part is occupied by professional or semi-professional modelers?

They aren't the ones arguing to the contrary, obviously.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

> Quote - > Quote vintorixI judge a modeler after his texturing. Only a stark beginner doesn't understand the importance of a nice (quad) topology. But expertice in baking and all kinds of maps, in the usage of these new tools like nDo and dDo, substance designer and xNormal is hard to come by. > >

I'm looking in to faster better Texturing App's.

How fast would it take to texture these meshes with allegorithmic & or quixel ?
How well does Allegorithmic & or Quixel texture ,Do they strik across 90 degree angles.?

Having trouble getting grunge across the 90 to 60 degree angles.

I know Allegorithmic & or Quixel is for game meshes ,Are they still good to use with SubD meshes ?

Thanks

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

RorrKonn,

Go to http://www.sparkyworld.co.uk/3d4own.htm and follow that free pdf tutorial:
Sparkyworld’s Guide To Creating Panelled Textures V1.1

" know Allegorithmic & or Quixel is for game meshes ,Are they still good to use with SubD meshes ?"

Of course they are. If it is that worn, typical, game look you are after you could try the brand new Substance Painter,
http://www.allegorithmic.com/products/substance-painter (demo version and also very cheap right now)

It is really fun to use,

vintorix :

Oh ya ,half to have that worn n torn, apocalyptic game look.
New & pretties are just nauseating.

Sparkyworld’s Guide To Creating Panelled ,Very cool.

Allegorithmic & or Quixel are on my to get list n Allegorithmic 50% off now
.Dang ,I half to grow a new kidney fast ;)

Thanks for the info.

Always open to info on killer softwares

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - When I buy content built by someone else I always check out how clean the mesh is. If it's a sloppy mesh I won't buy from that vendor again, no matter how pretty their model might look in Poser, because I know I'll be limited in where and how I can use it in the future, should I ever choose to. So while it may work just fine in Poser, it can be a nightmare in Maya or some other package if the mesh construction is crap. It also tells me the artist really doesn't care much about his work, and if he doesnt, why should I? There are plenty of other modelers I can buy from, and won't have the headache of having to fix their mess before I can use the

See and that's what I call plain ridiculous, sorry to say so. If a vendor has released something for Poser and the items is intended for Poser, then it should be used in Poser period. Again, you are putting demands on the vendor that are not fair at all. The content hasn't been created for Maya or anything else to do and it has nothing to do with care for his or her work at all, to say that again, is ridiculous.

The content has been released for Poser, not for other applications. Now, to use your words, if your stubborn enough to use it elsewhere, that's your problem..... and saying that an artist doesn't care about his/her work just because you insist in using it for something it wasn't intended for is cray and even offensive. My goodness....

Besides as a modeler you should know that even if you have the best topology in the world, it is not a guarantee that the model will work in every application. Unfortunately a lot of applications simply interpreted object information incorrectly or the application used to model may do that as well.

I do think we're discussed this enough, it's obvious you want to make something arbitrary that should be, just because it's more convenient for you. You can think what ever you like, but please never again say that someone doesn't care for his work just because they don't live up to your standards, that's absurd. I'll leave it it that :)

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Meshflow used for fashion and design. Such meshes are loved by the typical Poser user, who like to experiment in the material room, with Poser textures and shaders, bought or home-made.

There is more than one way to swing a cat. This mesh was made with ZRemesher. A greeting to all those who says that you cant't control meshflow in ZBrush. Mind you, I am not saying that you can do a whole character with this technique.

> Quote - Meshflow used for fashion and design. Such meshes are loved by the typical Poser user, who like to experiment in the material room, with Poser textures and shaders, bought or home-made. > > There is more than one way to swing a cat. This mesh was made with ZRemesher. A greeting to all those who says that you cant't control meshflow in ZBrush. Mind you, I am not saying that you can do a whole character with this technique.

This is actually a good example for why I DONT use zremesher for my final mesh.

This isn't bad tho, but it still needs a good bit of work.

Stretched polys under the breast and bunching of polys along the peak of the breast, this will cause distorted UVs, making it very difficult to evenly texture in a 2D app like photoshop. The geometry needs to be relaxed in this area.
Poles should never lay along the center line of the model, especially not 6-pointed poles. They create pinching and artifacts in renders.
Same with triangles. Far too many triangles dispursed around the geometry in various places, many of them are completely unnecessary and could be spun together to form quads. For low poly models its more acceptable to have triangles, in discreet places if you can't get rid of them by working the mesh without adding more unnecessary geometry.

I'd take this mesh into a modeler and correct the tris, stretching and poles. An extra 20 minutes of attention by hand would make the mesh much more useable and eliminate a lot of potential problems down the road.

~Shane

Sorry, Vintorix.

While those material zones might look cool, the meshflow is quite bad.

Much better to realise that bi-color design with a texture map and use the topology instead to create some realistic folds and to provide for better bending and perhaps morphing.

Young Soul Vanilla by AerySoul is an example of topology I wish more Poser merchants would create: Sculpted folds, real seams, yet still lightweight.

Most Poser cloth looks like it was cut out of styrofoam instead of sewn out of real fabric. And in almost all the cases, bad topology is to blame.

JoePublic, "Much better to realise that bi-color design with a texture map"

But if I do that the user can't change the individual areas in the material room!
Wrinkles can always be realized with ZBrush maps.
You make a choice. Either you emphasis the bending, or the material area or wrinkles, in real life everything is a compromise. But IMO if you choose the Aery Soul's way you should deliver it in the form of a morph. In combination with 100% welded mesh (which is important) you can then use it for simulation in the cloth room. You dial down the wrinkles before simulation and restore the wrinkles after, see the attached example. Conforming dress to the left, using bodyhandles, dynamic version to the right.

Otherwise I am flattered to be compared with Aery Soul, one touched by the gods. That is a first!

AmbientShade, the problem with you is that you have lost your sense of proportions. (the single thing Winston Churchill though was most important in life).

What are you comparing with? Mudbox? Can Mudbox do a mesh flow like that?

I've never used mudbox, I use zbrush for sculpting, texturing and map baking. Topogun for retopology.

No clue what you mean by the proportion comment. Sounds like an attempt at an insult to me tho.

I got the impression that the yellow zones were intended to be raised areas on a form-fitted shirt, something like sculpted leather armor or similar.

~Shane

Not an insult just a reminder that if you criticize something, you must show a software that do better. Otherwise it is just a waste of time.

Nothing can stand up to theoretical wishfulness.

Quote - Young Soul Vanilla by AerySoul is an example of topology I wish more Poser merchants would create: Sculpted folds, real seams, yet still lightweight.

Most Poser cloth looks like it was cut out of styrofoam instead of sewn out of real fabric. And in almost all the cases, bad topology is to blame.

Just imagine if even half the vendors and poser content artists strived to acheive the same quality as Aery Soul or others like them. But apparently, according to some anyway, that's just nonsense.

~Shane

Queen Elisabeth's Summer cottage

This reminds me of a Swedish comedy where two working colleagues have an argument, one has just bought an summer cottage and the other is jealous, so he is the all time referring to "Queen Elisabeth's Summer cottage". That is a summer cottage! he says.

While I find this discourse, extremely interesting, you guys do realise you've traveled way off from the original subject matter, right?

Steve will never notice my Poser Future post among it, that's for sure :biggrin:
Some very good points made here though, it's a good read.

My hottest wish is for baking. If I can get someone with me, I am prepared to tent outside SM offices untill it is done.

That would be nice and solve quite some export problems and will speed up rendering complex images a lot as well.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - > Quote - When Genesis first came out, I asked why didn't DAZ just "Poserize" a version for Poser users. You've demonstrated that it can be done, Joe. I could do it myself. But screw that. If DAZ won't go thru the trouble to just make a cr2 version of Genesis for Poser, why do I need to jump through any hoops to do it myself?

Support; there would need to be Python scripts written to add morphs. Also, Genesis 1 wouldn't have been compatible; Conforming of clothing to figures with animated joint centres didn't work until Poser 9 SR2, IIRC. Both DAZ and SM rushed Studio 4.0 and Poser 9 out due to business deadlines, not because the technology was ready.

However, I will say I was expecting a Poser version of Genesis 2 when DAZ released seperate male and female figures, but that has obviously not been the case thus far...

Granted, but Male M3dia says that the vendors didn't want to make two versions of everything. They wouldn't have had to. A poserised version of Genesis would have allowed the vendors to keep making Poser compatible clothes, while Autofit could simply handle the conversion for Studio users. That's what happened pretty much anyway because Genesis didn't have much to wear, and everyone was using their old V4 stuff through Autofit anyway. DAZ could have minimized or even prevented a major split in the community, but no they adopted a "their way or the highway" mentality about it all, which forced everyone to pick a side.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - When Genesis first came out, I asked why didn't DAZ just "Poserize" a version for Poser users. You've demonstrated that it can be done, Joe. I could do it myself. But screw that. If DAZ won't go thru the trouble to just make a cr2 version of Genesis for Poser, why do I need to jump through any hoops to do it myself?

Support; there would need to be Python scripts written to add morphs. Also, Genesis 1 wouldn't have been compatible; Conforming of clothing to figures with animated joint centres didn't work until Poser 9 SR2, IIRC. Both DAZ and SM rushed Studio 4.0 and Poser 9 out due to business deadlines, not because the technology was ready.

However, I will say I was expecting a Poser version of Genesis 2 when DAZ released seperate male and female figures, but that has obviously not been the case thus far...

Granted, but Male M3dia says that the vendors didn't want to make two versions of everything. They wouldn't have had to. A poserised version of Genesis would have allowed the vendors to keep making Poser compatible clothes, while Autofit could simply handle the conversion for Studio users. That's what happened pretty much anyway because Genesis didn't have much to wear, and everyone was using their old V4 stuff through Autofit anyway. DAZ could have minimized or even prevented a major split in the community, but no they adopted a "their way or the highway" mentality about it all, which forced everyone to pick a side.

But Genesis isn't just about clothes, it is about the whole feature set. UVs, morphs, HD, for example. So still, having one figure that does a lot and one that does nothing doesn't sound exactly fair either.

And as far as "their way or the highway", how is Dawn any different? With her, you do choose or you do it twice. DSON, plan it for Poser and you do it once and it works in both.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - When Genesis first came out, I asked why didn't DAZ just "Poserize" a version for Poser users. You've demonstrated that it can be done, Joe. I could do it myself. But screw that. If DAZ won't go thru the trouble to just make a cr2 version of Genesis for Poser, why do I need to jump through any hoops to do it myself?

Support; there would need to be Python scripts written to add morphs. Also, Genesis 1 wouldn't have been compatible; Conforming of clothing to figures with animated joint centres didn't work until Poser 9 SR2, IIRC. Both DAZ and SM rushed Studio 4.0 and Poser 9 out due to business deadlines, not because the technology was ready.

However, I will say I was expecting a Poser version of Genesis 2 when DAZ released seperate male and female figures, but that has obviously not been the case thus far...

Granted, but Male M3dia says that the vendors didn't want to make two versions of everything. They wouldn't have had to. A poserised version of Genesis would have allowed the vendors to keep making Poser compatible clothes, while Autofit could simply handle the conversion for Studio users. That's what happened pretty much anyway because Genesis didn't have much to wear, and everyone was using their old V4 stuff through Autofit anyway. DAZ could have minimized or even prevented a major split in the community, but no they adopted a "their way or the highway" mentality about it all, which forced everyone to pick a side.

But Genesis isn't just about clothes, it is about the whole feature set. UVs, morphs, HD, for example. So still, having one figure that does a lot and one that does nothing doesn't sound exactly fair either.

And as far as "their way or the highway", how is Dawn any different? With her, you do choose or you do it twice. DSON, plan it for Poser and you do it once and it works in both.

Dawn is working with the dynamic that DAZ has already set in place. That dynamic wasn't there when Genesis for appeared, and like I said, Studio was already converting clothng with auto-fit, a feature Poser didn't have. So continuing to make the clothing Poser compatible at least until DSON came along would have ameliorated the splt somewhat.

HD didn't come along until G2 anyway, so that wasn't an issue, and a poserized version of V5 would have kept a lot of Poser users and merchants happier.

Quote -
Dawn is working with the dynamic that DAZ has already set in place. That dynamic wasn't there when Genesis for appeared, and like I said, Studio was already converting clothng with auto-fit, a feature Poser didn't have. So continuing to make the clothing Poser compatible at least until DSON came along would have ameliorated the splt somewhat.

Not really because in reality Poser and DAZ came out with different weightmapping systems and at genesis' release Poser didn't have the scaling fixed and no subdivision. Scaling didn't get worked on until a service release and subdivision didn't come out until Poser 10/2014 (though edge weighted creasing from Pixar's spec needs to be added in). So really even if genesis didn't get released, any future figure couldn't be released in both. The split was going to happen regardless because both companies aren't on the same page feature-wise and those features aren't compatible.

So let's take Genesis totally out of the equation and just look at the apps themselves.

Future figures would be available in only one app or they would to be "Dawns"... figures with base features that would exist in both applications. Vendors would just make stuff for one application or doing it twice for both; things made in one program would be met with cries from customers to see if they can get a compatible version for their application. But really the burden falls to vendor to make stuff for both applications, which they won't do for too long. So those vendors that didn't want to split the market would stay with the older tech until the customers start wanting something different and gravitate to whatever software gives them what they want, then those vendors eventually will have to choose.

But SM provided the plugin architecture and DAZ created the DSON importer to allow genesis to be used in Poser. So it's a not a perfect solution, but at least the figure can be used in both and vendors don't have to duplicate their efforts to get something to the marketplace. And that's what vendors want: to be able to reach the most customers without increasing their effort.

So since vendors can not make cloths that fit more than a single figure we have to dump Poser to support them? When I go to the store in real life I look for a size that fits. The reason 100's of people can wear the same shirt is because it is dynamic. That is it will fit any figure.

The following quote is from a product marketed at DAZ (Dynamic Classics for V6 and V5 supermodel):

"Dynamic Clothes flow with your character's shape in a more natural way. With conforming clothes, no matter what method you use, the more different from the base mesh your character is the more unnatural the clothes will fit. Particularly difficult fits are extreme shapes, where animated draping is recommended. Nothing fits more natural than dynamic clothes since these clothes don't fight geometry but flow with it creating exciting visual details with wrinkles and folds that dynamically change depending on your pose - enhancing realism in your renders"

So since even DAZ acknowledge the benefits of dynamics why don't the vendors support that method? Dynamic has been a part of Poser since version 5 and the lastest version has added bullet physics. I do know that DAZ does not have dynamics as part of the program and that it some type of hack/script add on and that each items has to be made by a single vendor/team. WHY?

V4 is popular however it has 100's of flaws that is a whole vendor support area providing fixes to those issues. Genesis 1 only lasted a year before being dumped. What assurance is there that Genesis 2 is all that? And even if Poser was to add native support what features of Poser would the current vendors add? The whole problem being they do not want to support more than a single figure/version odds are great they will not add any thing.

Currently the content I have for V4 is being used to convert to other figures. Basically I have turned V$ into a dress dummy that cloths are made on. This has the advantage for venders to make something that can be used by the vast number of users who refuse to upgrade and can be used by studio users also via the autofit.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

" If a vendor has released something for Poser and the items is intended for Poser, then it should be used in Poser period. Again, you are putting demands on the vendor that are not fair at all."

I agree sir
for us end users who have no intention of ever rendering in poser itself
it is up to us to find poser/DAZ, purpose built content, that will work best in our programs.. or make our own.

No different than me harvesting free Sketchup models from the google 3D warehouse
and exporting them from Sketchup pro , to use in C4D.
Some render fine and some are useless crap (without a complete retopo)

Either way no responsibility ,for its compatibility with C4D, falls upon the original sketchup artist.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Quote - So since vendors can not make cloths that fit more than a single figure we have to dump Poser to support them? When I go to the store in real life I look for a size that fits. The reason 100's of people can wear the same shirt is because it is dynamic. That is it will fit any figure.

The following quote is from a product marketed at DAZ (Dynamic Classics for V6 and V5 supermodel):

"Dynamic Clothes flow with your character's shape in a more natural way. With conforming clothes, no matter what method you use, the more different from the base mesh your character is the more unnatural the clothes will fit. Particularly difficult fits are extreme shapes, where animated draping is recommended. Nothing fits more natural than dynamic clothes since these clothes don't fight geometry but flow with it creating exciting visual details with wrinkles and folds that dynamically change depending on your pose - enhancing realism in your renders"

So since even DAZ acknowledge the benefits of dynamics why don't the vendors support that method? Dynamic has been a part of Poser since version 5 and the lastest version has added bullet physics. I do know that DAZ does not have dynamics as part of the program and that it some type of hack/script add on and that each items has to be made by a single vendor/team. WHY?

The dynamics conversation comes up from time to time, but sales-wise dynamics aren't as popular as conforming otherwise you'd see more items. Dynamics don't allow for details as conforming does. Dynamics make for flowing dresses, but more people want that jeweled bikini armor so they can rush into the temple ;). If dynamics actually affected DAZ's bottom line, I'm sure they would have moved on it by now.

Quote - V4 is popular however it has 100's of flaws that is a whole vendor support area providing fixes to those issues. Genesis 1 only lasted a year before being dumped. What assurance is there that Genesis 2 is all that? And even if Poser was to add native support what features of Poser would the current vendors add? The whole problem being they do not want to support more than a single figure/version odds are great they will not add any thing.

Actually Genesis is was over 2 1/2 years old before Genesis 2 was released. It seems like a year because people spent more time arguing about it than using it ;) Technology does move quickly, especially in software so 3 years between figures would be expected. No one walks around with 6 year old cell phones or laptops, figure tech shouldn't be any different.

Quote - Currently the content I have for V4 is being used to convert to other figures. Basically I have turned V$ into a dress dummy that cloths are made on. This has the advantage for venders to make something that can be used by the vast number of users who refuse to upgrade and can be used by studio users also via the autofit.

This does not support the target figure, but the source. A figure gains popularity and support from items specifically made for it. If no one buys for that figure or just simply converts what they have, vendors take it as non-interest and goes elsewhere.
Eventually as people want more from their figures they will move towards other figures, so less people will buy into old tech. So then the vendors will have to choose and move as well. You don't want your figure depending on content of another when that happens.

Poser fussion meshes half to work in all those app's also.
Poser / DAZ Studio are just plugs for the main App's.

MudBox can place loops . time stamp 1:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpVCvgvzR_I&list=PL90457F87CCF5513D

I'm guessing next version of zBrush can place loops.
I never thought of spliting the mesh in zBrush for loops.That's a killer idea.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - " If a vendor has released something for Poser and the items is intended for Poser, then it should be used in Poser period. Again, you are putting demands on the vendor that are not fair at all."

I agree sir
for us end users who have no intention of ever rendering in poser itself
it is up to us to find poser/DAZ, purpose built content, that will work best in our programs.. or make our own.

No different than me harvesting free Sketchup models from the google 3D warehouse
and exporting them from Sketchup pro , to use in C4D.
Some render fine and some are useless crap (without a complete retopo)

Either way no responsibility ,for its compatibility with C4D, falls upon the original sketchup artist.

Cheers

Well, I AM paying for the demands I place on a vendor. Now if they don't think what i pay is worth it, nothing I can do. But if I had to buy a pair of pants from a tailor made for a person a size smaller than me, then I had to alter to pants to fit me, I probably wouldn't buy pants from that tailor very long.

You are entirely right RorrKonn, If the software will not do as you will you have to retort to pure brutality, sad but true! And here is what it looks like one mouse click later using ZBrush Panel loops,

ZBrush and ZRemesher open up the entire Boolean world, that has been closed for us so long.

On the subject of "content" I think the main issue with end users is the constantly changing array of figure-based technologies, and as artists that's not really something they should have to be concerned about.

From a designers point of view I think the Poser format is the better of the two, and here's why I think so. When you look at what's required of a human figure, or pretty much anything really, it boils down to a few essentials:

Total control over it's form.
Total control over it's colour.
Total control over it's joints.
Total control over it's movement.

Both the Poser and Geneses figures offer this, but I think the Poser figures do it a lot easier and more efficiently. I have no intentions of slowing down my Poser viewport with a DSON import, I already have the essentials in the Poser figures.

Today, a Poser figure not only allows the essntials listed above, it goes further still by allowing things to control other things, and for it's form to react dynamically. The fact is that no matter how hard I try, when I add that lot together I can't think of anything that cannot be done with the figure technology already in Poser.

I also think Genesis is bad news for vendors in the long run.

In order to keep up development, money needs to be made by both the software and content developers. Making it easy to morph from a toddler to an adult and bring the clothes along with it simply cuts out the requirement for vendored products, and frankly I've never seen such an idiotic move made by DAZ in the entire time I've known them. IMHO, Genesis is nothing more than a marketing product that entices you with pointless technologies. There's nothing you can do with Genesis that you cannot do with a much lighter and more responsive,Poser figure. If only users would learn about joint driven morphs, axis bulges - and to my amazement - even built-in event-driven joint keyframing.

You can even make breasts bounce due to the fact that Poser now allows your figure to have a complete map-based soft-body.

I'm guessing DAZ thought Genesis would get one over on the Poser users, but all they've really done is over-complicate the situation (in typical DAZ fashion) and develop a format that will ultimately cut down the amount of products needing to be sold in their online store. I've told DAZ directly on many occasions (lovingly of course) how stupid they are, and to me, Genesis is just one example of epic-scale stupidity.

One other thing to consider when you compare what DAZ and SM are doing, is this:

Genesis might sound like a good idea when you consider it starts off as neither male or female, but at the end of the day, that mesh still needs to morph to make it either one or the other. Me personally, I prefer to see a whole new geometry with "character" on each release of Poser, and I have to say, Smith Micro do that very well. Not only do you get figures that look very different from one another, that library of figures builds up as the release count increases. You end up with a good selection of figures.

Try doing that with your DAZ Runtime and you'll find, for example, that even though there are masses of Victoria 4 morphs out there, the majority of them still look like Victoria 4. It's an inherent side-effect of using the same geometry time and time again. Now, stand Roxie next to Miki and see if that problem appears with the Poser way of doing it.

Nope (because they're completely different geometry).

You've never had it so good, you have Poser figures that have weight mapped morphs and dynamics for crying out loud - you even have total control over joint driven morphs. People need to stop whining and start learning the technology that is already at their disposal in Poser. You can already do anything you will ever need to do with a figure in Poser if you learn how it works. And as long as Smith Micro keep up the characters and add the right features to Poser - I really don't see a problem.

I can't remember who said it, or even which thread it was in, but I agree the best way forward for vendors is to start supporting the characters that come with each new release of Poser (it makes perfect sense). Roxie is a perfect example of that, she's a nice mesh with 'character', yet there's like a million outfits for V4 and Genesis and a lot of them still look like V4 or Genesis.

What about Roxie, Rex, Miku?

Quote - > Quote - " If a vendor has released something for Poser and the items is intended for Poser, then it should be used in Poser period. Again, you are putting demands on the vendor that are not fair at all."

I agree sir
for us end users who have no intention of ever rendering in poser itself
it is up to us to find poser/DAZ, purpose built content, that will work best in our programs.. or make our own.

No different than me harvesting free Sketchup models from the google 3D warehouse
and exporting them from Sketchup pro , to use in C4D.
Some render fine and some are useless crap (without a complete retopo)

Either way no responsibility ,for its compatibility with C4D, falls upon the original sketchup artist.

Cheers

Well, I AM paying for the demands I place on a vendor. Now if they don't think what i pay is worth it, nothing I can do. But if I had to buy a pair of pants from a tailor made for a person a size smaller than me, then I had to alter to pants to fit me, I probably wouldn't buy pants from that tailor very long.

If you would be a custom made item, sure, you can place any demand on the vendor. But if you buy a mass produced item, you cannot place any demands on a vendor at all.... the products is as is and you have to make sure it's working for what you want it to be for. If a vendor says it's for Poser and you want to use in DS then the work is on your shoulders, not on the vendor.

I do create my items with Poser in mind. Poser allows me to use a good number of modeling features, but not all. This has nothing to do with topology at all and that is what some fail to understand. Some of these modeling features do not work in DS at all, DS does not support them. To get the same result in DS, I have to model completely differently and avoid a number of features my modeling application offers me. This has nothing to do with topology at all, it has everything to do with how the end application interprets the data given to it in the object file. Yes, I can export models to .obj and while Poser will read them fine, I can make DS crash in mere seconds. Same goes for Vue, an item can work fine in both DS and Poser, but can sent Vue off into a crash...... in spite of the the topolgy being perfect.

So, I clearly state whith what application my items do work. If you want to use them with something else, then sure you can try, but there is no guarantee it will work at all. A few of my products I do offer for Poser & DS and seperately for Vue. Why? Because I know that Vue cannot handle some stuff.

And I can tell you that this isn't happening to me only.... some of the big names in the Poser world have models that work fine in Poser & DS, but have major issues in Vue.

Back to your pants..... your reasoning would be true if you bought tailor made pants for yourself or one size fits all. But that's not the case.... you are in a shopping mall and it's up to you to find the size that fits you! You cannot blame the manufacturer for buying a size that doesn't fit you and you have to alter it. No, you have to make sure you get the size you need. I offer Poser sizes..... Poser & DS sizes..... Vue sizes..... that's it. If you want to use it in Maya..... sorry, I don't offer that size. If you buy Poser size and want to use it in DS or Vue.... sorry, you bought the wrong size. Buy the size you need and if you want to use it beyond, you're going to have to do some aternation.

**
**You simply cannot place any demands on a vendor, since you buy a ready made product and that comes as is. You don't buy a vacuum cleaner and complain to the vendor that it doesn't make coffee now, do you? No of course not, you cannot place that demand on the vendor of the vacuum cleaner at all. It's a ready made product with certain use in mind. If you want it to make coffee, be prepared to make some (huge) alterations. Same with items you buy in the marketplace here, or anywhere else..... they are ready made products, as is, with a certain purpose in mind and the customer cannot demans anything at all from the vendor, unless it's not working for that it was intended for!

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I'm working on it! :biggrin!: First out fit for Roxie is already at CP the second will probably beby week's end.

"Try doing that with your DAZ Runtime and you'll find, for example, that even though there are masses of Victoria 4 morphs out there, the majority of them still look like Victoria 4. It's an inherent side-effect of using the same geometry time and time again."

Ummm...not quite..below is all the same mesh. I doubt they look the same. I could add the females to the list and toons which are also built on that same mesh, but you get the point.

http://www.daz3d.com/michael-5

http://www.daz3d.com/freak-5

http://www.daz3d.com/creatures/infernal-behemoth

My Renderosity Store

"Well, I AM paying for the demands I place on a vendor. Now if they don't think what i pay is worth it, nothing I can do"

Indeed there is not
but it is not fair or logical to buy (or even complain) about something that was not intended for or advertised as being compatible with my software or system ,in the first place, and then make "demands"based on the fact that I am willing to pay for it.

"But if I had to buy a pair of pants from a tailor made for a person a size smaller than me, then I had to alter to pants to fit me, I probably wouldn't buy pants from that tailor very long."

Look at your own example sir.

Be an educated consumer
if said tailor simply lied and claimed he had the item in your
size and sold you an article of clothing that did not fit, that his his fault& deception,

If you walk into a store that advertises*" we only sell jeans in size 32 waist"* ,,yes they may only be able to sell jeans to a certain limited market,but those of greater girth have been informed of the "Compatibility" of the store's products.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

I can never understand Male_M3dia's claim that porting "Dawnish" characters from Poser to Daz is double work! That is totally wrong. A simple export import brings along all the morphs. If it was difficult how come Hivewire can offer conversion to Daz as a service so cheap that it is practically free? Furthermore, it is also trivial to transfer your work to V6, (thought obviously HW won't help you with that ;) And remember, it is the textures and maps that is the bear part of the work! The situation being what it is, no baking in Poser, makes that you as a vendor should avoid using Poser shaders. That is all precautions you need to take.

Contrary to him I believe that it is the Dawnish characters that are the future for Poser.

Quote -

You've never had it so good, you have Poser figures that have weight mapped morphs and dynamics for crying out loud - you even have total control over joint driven morphs. People need to stop whining and start learning the technology that is already at their disposal in Poser. You can already do anything you will ever need to do with a figure in Poser if you learn how it works. And as long as Smith Micro keep up the characters and add the right features to Poser - I really don't see a problem.

I can't remember who said it, or even which thread it was in, but I agree the best way forward for vendors is to start supporting the characters that come with each new release of Poser (it makes perfect sense). Roxie is a perfect example of that, she's a nice mesh with 'character', yet there's like a million outfits for V4 and Genesis and a lot of them still look like V4 or Genesis.

What about Roxie, Rex, Miku?

I think the market pretty much determined their fate a few months after their release. I'm sure we could argue over figure x is better than figure y, but ultimately the market will decide if a figure has the features it needs to switch over and support. Then you'll see that reflected in the various market places by products created by vendors. So really you can see where those Poser figures stand in relation to other figures by vendors supporting them with content, because that's what the market wants.

Quote - I can never understand Male_M3dia's claim that porting "Dawnish" characters from Poser to Daz is double work! That is totally wrong. A simple export import brings along all the morphs. If it was difficult how come Hivewire can offer conversion to Daz as a service so cheap that it is practically free? Furthermore, it is also trivial to transfer your work to V6, (thought obviously HW won't help you with that ;) And remember, it is the textures and maps that is the bear part of the work! The situation being what it is, no baking in Poser, makes that you as a vendor should avoid using Poser shaders. That is all precautions you need to take.

Contrary to him I believe that it is the Dawnish characters that are the future for Poser.

Ok, so if it is so easy, why haven't more vendors done it?

What happens when your character has scaling, adjusted rigging, and added JCMs? A simple export may work if you're just turning dials, but yes you do have to do some work once those characters start getting complicated. If you make something for both platforms, you want to make sure that your product works well in both and most times that involves way more than simple exports. If you do simple that's precisely what you're going to give your customers.. and they'll go to someone else that gives them great products.

Whatever you say Male_M3dia, doesn't matter because I know that I can do it. In fact I have already done it. If other vendors can't make it so much better for me. I know what I can do and not do for a painless transfer. If that means sometimes that functionality will be a little less in Daz so be it, because I want my customers to buy for fashion and design, for the art, and not functionality.

When backing off, and looking at it from a distance.

The Genesis technology is outstanding and offers some real improvements in DS.

However, that DSON thing is a Poser users nightmare, only its mother can love.

It is utterly resourses hungry and slows Poser down on its knees. (If you get the thing working at all.)
And you still get only half of the technology to work.

Conclusion / Result?
If you wanna keep your hair?
Gene is DS only.

Or use some hacks like JoePublic does, and live with a 50% result.

I agree with EClark that Poser needs far better figures that come with tons of content at release time.

I also agree that Poser should become more end user friendly and lots of things should/could be automated.

I also agree that the old legacy content is obsolete and should either be repaired, upgraded or dropped completely.

Gene/V5/V6, in its current form with DSON is not an option for Poser.

Dawn, while a good effort, was clearly build for DS and then converted to work (and let us leave it at that) in Poser.

Final.

Neither Gene/V5/V6 nor Dawn are a valid alternatives for V4 in Poser.

Rex and Roxie, while the best SM meshes so far, lack their succes because they where not ready at release time, and came with close to no end user usable content at all.

Is Poser a good App?
Certainly, but so is the Gene/V5/V6 - DS combination.

Happy Posering all.
Tony

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - Whatever you say Male_M3dia, doesn't matter because I know that I can do it. In fact I have already done it. If other vendors can't make it so much better for me. I know what I can do and not do for a painless transfer. If that means sometimes that functionality will be a little less in Daz so be it, because I want my customers to buy for fashion and design, for the art, and not functionality.

And I find that troubling, because from this and your other comments pertaining the flaws in the wireframe you posted, it seems to imply that you'll quickly put out something that may look good but not function well rather than take the time to make sure that not only it looks good, but functions well for your customers. The thing is, no matter what platform you create for, if you're going to gain customers they'll need to know you're giving them quality products. If you're telling people that you're using tools to quickly create things but not correcting any flaws and then you're creating things for the look but not functionality I would imagine people would be wary about buying your products.

Well it is ok that we differ in opinion just let the market decide. Capitalism and free market have created all the welfare in the world. But you shouldn't come with incorrect information. I may be new in the Poser/Daz world, but I have a long career behind me in computers and I have never experienced a so good amalgamation of two systems before. "This System is Operational" . So let your desinformation rest, will you?

Quote - Well it is ok that we differ in opinion just let the market decide. Capitalism and free market have created all the welfare in the world. But you shouldn't come with incorrect information. I may be new in the Poser/Daz world, but I have a long career behind me in computers and I have never experienced a so good amalgamation of two systems before. "This System is Operational" . So let your desinformation rest, will you?

I only quoted what you said, so it's straight from the source. The market will definitely decide. Good luck.

**
@EClark1894**
Good man

And of course, as you're producing for a figure that doesn't suffer from vendor-flooding, you ought to get a fair few sales providing it's good work.

@Zev0
I get the point, but I don't think you got mine.

Those only look different because The Freak, for example, is a massively different morph from Michael 5. If you look in the online galleries here for example, view a few images containing characters and without reading the description, you'll often be able to tell which is V4, even if it have a very nice, and sometimes very different morph. Same with Genesis, the DAZ male for example looks very effeminate compared to the Poser males.

Every time I get an marketing email form them I can see that same face no matter what morph it is, and no matter whether it's male or female, you see what I'm getting at here?

Obviously, the Poser figures would suffer exactly the same monotony if every morph produced for their figure was based on the same geometry, and that's my point, with the Poser figures you're looking at individual characters.

It wouldn't matter whether a DAZ vendor chose to vend a monster or a fairy, it's likely the Genesis eyes will be picked-up on the fairy and the Genesis shoulders will be picked up on the monster. A vendor faced with the same task on a Poser figure has the better option, because unlike the Genesis-based vendor, they have a choice of meshes to start from. They might chose to create a monster from one of the more brutal looking males, or they might chose to create a pin-up from Roxie.

Which brings me back to the point I made about DAZ and stupidity.

Genesis can morph from a toddler to an adult and even bring the clothes with it. What sort of policy is that for a company that effectively thrives on vendored content? DAZ have effectively shot themselves in the foot because although they make a profit out of the shiny new "Genesis", they lose the requirement for what would have been four vendored products to do the same thing. The toddler, the clothes for the toddler, the adult, and the clothes for the adult.

And here's the gotcha ...

@MaleM3dia
... would you really want an adult to be able to wear a toddlers clothing set? Of course not, which brings me to my other point, that Genesis is nothing more than a marketing gimick designed to get one over on the Poser users. It's an overcomplication that will eventually do nothing other than cut their own profits and those of the vendors. I think Smith Micro should ignore the system entirely and carry on regardless - they don't need it.

My take on it is to ignore Genesis and support the figures that come with your application of choice. Consumers in general are sheep in that they will flock to wherever they see has a following. The only reason there's a market for Genesis is because the vendors are passifying it, and without the vendors support, it's pretty much useless.

My advice is to support the Poser figures. You don't need Genesis, and sooner or later I'm guessing even DAZ in their infinite wisdom will realise they certainly don't need Genesis. The only thing I'm watching for is how long it will take the big brass over there to realise it.

Sorry, but with enough polygons in the head any figure can look like any other figure.

Attached is a very quick and shoddy Poser "Simon" morph I made for my weightmapped David 3.

It was really just playying around with the morphbrush for 5 minutes.

So if you think all DAZ characters "look the same", the problem is with the people making the morphs, not the figure.

Making a "Simon" or "Rex" clone for Genesis-2 is just as easy as making a Michael 3 or Michael 4 clone is.

And if you use a "Simon for Genesis" clone instead of actual "Simon", you can have the "look" you prefer but still have all the better bending and more efficient meshand instant cloth and texture compatibility of Genesis-2.

**
@Joe**
Agreed, but my point is, that's usually not the case. I can often tell a V4 a mile off, be it the shoulder, the eyes, the abdomen that gives it away. Perhaps you're just not as sensitive to it as I am, but I can see it a mile off most times.

It's just a side-effect of if being the same geometry.

I think people will use what ever figure they feel best suits their need. Not everyone wants to use Genesis no matter how good it bends or what it can turn into. V4 could morph into several characters, and yes, scaling was an issue. Using Genesis won't make it any less of one. That sounds like a software issue, as was the animatable joints and subdivision. Content is a third party issue.

I think it's been said rather plainly. The vendors could do it if they want to. They just don't want to because they don't think it's worth the effort.

Quote - @MaleM3dia
... would you really want an adult to be able to wear a toddlers clothing set?

If I'm doing a college halloween party scene, why not? ;)

Quote - Of course not, which brings me to my other point, that Genesis is nothing more than a marketing gimick designed to get one over on the Poser users. It's an overcomplication that will eventually do nothing other than cut their own profits and those of the vendors. I think Smith Micro should ignore the system entirely and carry on regardless - they don't need it.

My take on it is to ignore Genesis and support the figures that come with your application of choice. Consumers in general are sheep in that they will flock to wherever they see has a following. The only reason there's a market for Genesis is because the vendors are passifying it, and without the vendors support, it's pretty much useless.

My advice is to support the Poser figures. You don't need Genesis, and sooner or later I'm guessing even DAZ in their infinite wisdom will realise they certainly don't need Genesis. The only thing I'm watching for is how long it will take the big brass over there to realise it.

Actually, let me give you a different take on the whole figure/clothing thing.

You know there weren't any teen characters for Gen 4 right? There also was a lack of clothing for the teen characters in Gen 3? I had gotten some requests for some younger characters so I had made some characters based on M4 which ultimately became Ashley International. The product contained several heads that you could mix and match and didn't use the available morph channels so you would inject other morphs as well. I started with a male first because there were a few female products available that did similar things and could exist with steph 4 to scale down.

Before I finalized the product, I asked around to see if there were any vendors that could make some clothing for him and I got the same answer. "I can't because male clothing doesn't sell for what I have to do" Finally WildDesigns was the only vendor to make fits to match my product which is on sale at rendo. I couldn't add any scaling to the product as it wouldn't work in Poser so people would have to manually scale it down. And that was the issue with any non-standard figure you wanted to add: What type of support are you going to get?

So when Genesis came about, trying to find clothing support for characters didn't become an issue. Scaling a figure down (since there was no David 4) was easy as well. So no you may not want a diaper on an adult, but you may want your teenager to wear some pants. Also other vendors were free to make other characters as well because they could all share the same clothing.

Then genesis 2 came along more gender-specific products and that has done well for me sales-wise; I released 3 male products and had back to back top 30 for the Hero and teen characters (remember someone said teen characters don't sell) and I've already made as much by this month than I did last year. And other vendors are saying the same thing; so no, I don't see the tech going away. Compare that to the other characters released in the past 3 years that have faded fast and you'll see why Genesis 2 products are popping up here... including that Retro swimsuit that's on sale for 50% off today.

Quote -I do create my items with Poser in mind. Poser allows me to use a good number of modeling features, but not all. This has nothing to do with topology at all and that is what some fail to understand. Some of these modeling features do not work in DS at all, DS does not support them. To get the same result in DS, I have to model completely differently and avoid a number of features my modeling application offers me. This has nothing to do with topology at all, it has everything to do with how the end application interprets the data given to it in the object file. Yes, I can export models to .obj and while Poser will read them fine, I can make DS crash in mere seconds. Same goes for Vue, an item can work fine in both DS and Poser, but can sent Vue off into a crash...... in spite of the the topolgy being perfect.

The rules of topology are based on the fundamentals of geometry, which remain the same across all software, because it's all based on the rules of math and physics, and math and physics don't change just because you're using DS or Lightwave or C4D or Vue instead of Poser. If the geometry is built correctly then it will function properly where ever you use it. If it's not built correctly then it may work fine in some software and won't work at all in others. I've never seen your geometry, but just by your statements here I can tell you're not building your geometry correctly if you're having those problems.

~Shane

Well, at least the thread activity is back up:)

My Renderosity Store

We are enjoying that the parents are away! ;)

Quote - I do create my items with Poser in mind. Poser allows me to use a good number of modeling features, but not all. This has nothing to do with topology at all and that is what some fail to understand. Some of these modeling features do not work in DS at all, DS does not support them. To get the same result in DS, I have to model completely differently and avoid a number of features my modeling application offers me. This has nothing to do with topology at all, it has everything to do with how the end application interprets the data given to it in the object file. Yes, I can export models to .obj and while Poser will read them fine, I can make DS crash in mere seconds. Same goes for Vue, an item can work fine in both DS and Poser, but can sent Vue off into a crash...... in spite of the the topolgy being perfect.

Clearly the modelling features you can't use for DS are either causing something to happen to the surface topology that the DS importer doesn't understand, or something highly unusual is going on, because any mesh that works in Poser should work in DS just the same. I've never ever had a mesh that didn't, based on the method of creation. Once you export the object as an OBJ, whatever techniques were used to create it simply do not matter anymore. The only thing that matters is the polygons, and how they appear on the mesh. It doesn't even make any sense that DS wouldn't like you using a modelling feature, unless the results of using it were creating topology that is unreadable by the DS importer. It isn't the feature in your modelling app isn't what DS doesn't like, it's the result of the topology that it produces which isn't compatible with the way DS imports geometry. And that's exactly what we are trying to say here. Topology is important, if you want consistant results. All any modelling feature does is create polygonal mesh topology in some way. I would be highly suspect of your topology being "perfect" , if indeed that is the case.

The only things that won't work the same in DS and Poser have to do with rigging, materials, and rendering. The polygons of a OBJ, loaded into Poser, should load equally as well in DS, unless there's something highly unusual going on with the mesh that the DS importer is rejecting. That would indicate bad topology (unless it's a material issue). Mat files could cause loading issues too.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Quite simply, I vote to maintain the emphasis on software. Figures will come and go.

That's not to make light, at all, of the "accessory" angle or the content "conundrum" but that's exactly what it is.

Who wants a car that has a bad ass radio, full gps, the interior bells and whistles but has an engine that needs fine tuning, tires that are worn and a frame that could be stronger? I know what I want. I can always put my own radio and other amenities in there myself.

I won't touch the other discussion except to say that some of the Genesis style abilities, inside Poser could be pythonically solved because that speaks, to me, more of streamlining the system to make it happen, like more efficient morph saving, swapping UVs (which could be swapping geometries there or injecting some kind of UVS file into a temporary geometry), making geometry switching tighter and on the fly for grafting. HD morphs are about opening up the pixar SD spec more. And yes, some of that would have to be tuning in other ways, on the program level.

**
@Male_M3dia**
I hear what you're saying but the problem I see can be summed up in the first thing you pointed out:

"You know there weren't any teen characters for Gen 4 right?"

An opportunity then?
Why not fill that gap instead of vending for a vendor-flooded figure?

I appreciate that you might look to or like to partner with other vendors in order to achive your product goals as a vendor. But whenever there is a shortcoming, there's surely an opportunity for vendors to fill it. I've lost count of how many times people complain about the lack of products available for the Poser figures, and every time I see it, I wonder why they are blind to the opportunity it presents to them.

Who knows, maybe Smith Micro do that intentionally in order to encourage vendored content.

Put it this way, I'm facing the very real prospect of having to become a vendor myself. One the one hand I'm up for the challenge because I like to design. But on the other, I'm dreading it because I have no idea whether the effort involved would even put food on the table (and that's a problem when your income is zero).

Faced with even that situation, I would not consider vending for a DAZ figure before at least vending for a Poser figure. I'm not against DAZ or their figures, I just think that products made for the DAZ figures should be designed and tested strictly for DAZ Studio, and that Poser figure products should be aimed at and designed strictly for Poser.

It cuts out all the cross-app incompatibility concerns, and it cuts the workload on the vendor and doesn't leave the customer ripping their hair out. I decided long ago that if I ever I chose to vend, that any DS-based products will be aimed at and tested strictly for DS, and that Poser-based products will be aimed at and tested strictly for Poser.

DS and Poser should not be fighting it out through content format wars, they should be fighting it out by pulling their acts together, stamping out bugs, and ensuring that their app is the one to go to because it's so stable and has the right features expected of an app designed to work with figures.

Quote - **
@Male_M3dia**
I hear what you're saying but the problem I see can be summed up in the first thing you pointed out:

"You know there weren't any teen characters for Gen 4 right?"

An opportunity then?

Why not fill that gap instead of vending for a vendor-flooded figure?

I appreciate that you might look to or like to partner with other vendors in order to achive your product goals as a vendor. But whenever there is a shortcoming, there's surely an opportunity for vendors to fill it. I've lost count of how many times people complain about the lack of products available for the Poser figures, and every time I see it, I wonder why they are blind to the opportunity it presents to them.

I think you need to read my post again. The issue is vendor support... where every single poser character released in the last 3 years have failed, the male versions especially. Although someone can build a figure, whether it succeeds or not depends on the support it receives from other vendors as well as customers.

The opportunity I saw was creating a teen to fill a gap in the Genesis 2 line. That way I can create teens of different sizes and races, and still have access to all of the clothing so I don't have to ask other vendors to make items for me. And because of that product and the two other items I released this year, I've already made what I made last year and it's not even april. So I consider that a successful project, and it filled a need that's been ignored for a while.

Would I have the same luck with a Poser-only product? Absolutely not. You can look to Tyler and Rex to see what type of support you would get with the male products. And really there are too many one-off characters just sitting in a lot of people's runtimes that they bought with the hope of support.

Quote -

Put it this way, I'm facing the very real prospect of having to become a vendor myself. One the one hand I'm up for the challenge because I like to design. But on the other, I'm dreading it because I have no idea whether the effort involved would even put food on the table (and that's a problem when your income is zero).

Faced with even that situation, I would not consider vending for a DAZ figure before at least vending for a Poser figure. I'm not against DAZ or their figures, I just think that products made for the DAZ figures should be designed and tested strictly for DAZ Studio, and that Poser figure products should be aimed at and designed strictly for Poser.

Well the first piece of advice that I'd give you is: Don't quit your day job. Starting out you're not going to make money.

Then look at the marketplace and see what's out there being sold and check out trends. Make sure you know the difference between filling a need and selling to an empty market.

Lastly, expect your current hopes to be crushed once you release a product and you find that market isn't what you thought it was.

At the risk of derailing my own thread... does topology need to match or at least closely resemble the topology of the underlying figure?

In other words, should V4's topology be the same as the clothes she wears?

In a way. EG the breast flow of the clothing mesh must be similar to the figures or if you dial in huge breasts or nipples, you will get ugly blocked edges because its fighting the flow of the breast mesh flow.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - At the risk of derailing my own thread... does topology need to match or at least closely resemble the topology of the underlying figure?

In other words, should V4's topology be the same as the clothes she wears?

Only DAZ Poser has conforming cloths.
conforming cloths alt to match the character topology 100%
but since you can't close is good.

dynamicks ,ah depends ,some 100% ,some not at all.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Well, at least the thread activity is back up:)

:lol:

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote -

You are entirely right RorrKonn, If the software will not do as you will you have to retort to pure brutality, sad but true! And here is what it looks like one mouse click later using ZBrush Panel loops,

ZBrush and ZRemesher open up the entire Boolean world, that has been closed for us so long.

Killer mesh

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

A conforming scarf wouldn't need to explicitly match the figure's topology. Conforming hair doesn't either. So it highly depends on what it is. Something that is intended to be more or less "form fitting" should generally follow the contours - shirt, blouse, pants.

Skirt - yes, at the waist, where abdomen bends would influence it. Lower down to the drape, probably not.

**
@Male_M3dia**
Sorry about that, I did misinterpret what you said, but I still stand by what I said for the reasons I pointed out. These issues exist because the vendors are obsessed with V4 and Genesis. It's not as if the figures themselves are failures, it's that there's not enough content for them.

Thanks for the heads-up on becoming a vendor, and believe me I'm under no illusion there. I know a lot about marketing and how to target and even create a market for something, but I'm also aware of the competition and work involved.

I'm currently living on £10 per week from savings, seriously, so I just figured that if I can make back at least that tenner a week then I can stop eating into my savings and still continue to eat. I'm hoping that if I vend at least one catchy product, that it'll give me at least that much.

I bloody hope so 'cause I'm well and truly screwed if it doesn't :-D

last time I done dynamics was Poser 5 ,never in DAZ Studio.
but dynamic don't worry about grouping or anything right ?

So the same dynamic dress with out any changes to it would fit any mesh in DAZ Poser ,Right ?

Just load the dress character and start the animation right ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Software Development.

They do offer some good figures, maybe not as good as others in some opinions, but you can go to other places for the content. There is a larger content creator ratio to developers. So in this I would have to lean to software. Why? If they took their time creating a better figure to play with or compete with another other features such as a better hair room, or faster rendering specs might get ignored. Unless they were investing in figures, I would think it would harm the output of their program than help.

I would rather have new features and work with the same figures, than have the same figures but some awesome figure which will be outdated by the release of another figure with the same tech. eventually.

Some of the main app's users might have different topology on the same character for different uses.
one for stills another for animations etc etc.
Anyways all the different topology styles have different names.

A mesh with out vector maps the topology means everything.
but with a vector map on a mesh .
We still make a mesh with excellent topology to be professional about it.
Even thou a half ass mesh with a 3000 polycount would do.

Last I looked the most advanced meshes you can make have vector maps & ALL the texturing maps.
DAZ Poser have been able to use displacement maps for a long time now.
Displacement maps ,One of the most advanced tools that DAZ Poser has but few ever use.
DAZ has HD Meshes that I have not checked out yet. but I doubt it will be used much either.
Displacement maps are killer but I do wish DAZ Poser had Vector maps or there =
I expect Poser Pro 16 will have Vector Maps.

Another one of DAZ Poser most advanced tools .That's ignored a lot.
I'm not 100% sure about all the maps DAZ Poser can use but I'm betting there here or close.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W07H7xeUnGE&list=PL90457F87CCF5513D

Put a texture and a few maps on a weight map Roxie ,You have the most advance mesh of 1995.
Put a Displacement map and ALL the other maps on a weight map Roxie ,You have the most advance mesh of 2012.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I like the idea that Poser has given us the tools to create with. The content that does come with Poser I think of more as learning aids. hat's the reason why they come with Poser in the first place, so you don't have to go out and buy the latest 40 dollar DAZ figure-morph and all the accessories that come with it right off the bat. Want to learn how to morph a figure? Roxie's right there. Want to learn how to morph her into a catgirl which means moving around her joint positions, we now have animatable joints. Unfortunately, that takes more skill than I have at the moment, but Poser has given me the tools to learn how to do that if I want to.

Poser provides me with paint, brushes and a blank canvas, versus some figures and content which are more like puzzles that you have to put together. In the end you wind up with pretty pictures. No doubt the puzzle was probably easier and looks better. But the paint and canvas makes me feel like I've really accomplished something on my own.

You guys aren't going to believe this, but I just got asked to interview someone about this topic. Can't tell you who she is but she said she'd be honored if I posted the conversation here on her behalf, and that it was ok to let you know in advance.

Who am I to deny a lady her wish?
I just got the questions off to her so it might even get done by tonight!

Sound interesting :)

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

** ROXIE - THE INTERVIEW**

First of all, Roxie, I'd like to thank you on behalf of myself and of the readers of the forum. I'm sure they all appreciate you taking the time out of your Runtime to do this interview for us. But before I start with the questions, there's something I'd personally love to know;

Why choose me to interview you?***
I was watching over the thread, you stood up for me in the debate, I like that in a guy.***

You're welcome, Roxie!***
Ok, no problem, just get on with it, it's freezing.***

You look a bit sad in the render, why is that?***
It's not really sadness, it's more of a hidden anger than anything else.***

And why is that?***
When you live in a Runtime like I do, it gets really annoying when your owner keeps clicking on Victoria. I think I'll get more render time than the other Poser girls, but I want more than that, and that's why I'm here doing this interview.***

So you blame Victoria for the lack of interest in you?***
Sure.***

And what's your opinion of Victoria?***
The btch needs to die, obviously.**

I think you're quite a sassy girl, Roxie, and I'm as surprised as you are. What do you think it is that makes vendors want to vend for Genesis but not Roxie?***
I couldn't give an opinion on why a female vendor doesn't vend for me, but I reckon I have the guys pretty much sussed.***

Well?***
I think it's pretty obvious really. The male vendors don't vend clothes for me because they like to see me naked all the time. I even had to walk to this interview for the render, totally naked. I think I caused like six crashes by the time I'd got here.***

So you're confident about your body, or rather "Mesh" then?***
Yeah, sure.***

And how do you feel you compare to Victoria 5 in that sense?***
You're kidding, right?***

I'm all woman, from head to toe, every vertex and every poly a woman. As for her, Victoria, she's not even a woman at all, she can morph into a guy just like that, it's creepy as hell. I've seen creepy sht on the internet, she has guy bits sometimes!*

I hear EClark has a product in the works for you, Roxie, how do you feel about that?***
Cool, the guy obviously has class.***

He also said you'd be ideal for a beginner to practice with.***
Then I'll kick his ass next time he loads me up for a fitting!!!***

Are you pleased about the way Smith Micro and Steve handle things?***
Yeah, I suppose, but sometimes I think they miss the plot. I'm half expecting Steve and Teyon to team up and create a new superhero-character called Cooperman!***

Any advice to potential vendors out there?***
Yeah, they need to stop obsessing over Victoria and start obsessing over me instead. I render better than she does, I have character. Poser has better SSS and softbody mapping, you can even map-out my entire body with a soft-body dynamics if you like.***

Plus, I have puffies.

Ok, so let's imagine Roxie was suddenly the girl in the limelight. Are there any specific vendored products you envisage yourself wearing?***
Not really, but that's always been a Poser girl's priviledge, a girl likes to be surprised, and so do the customers. I say go for it, surprise me***.

Well, it's been great to have this opportunity to speak with you like this. I've had to bleet-out a few of the words, but in general, I think you made your point.

Good luck, and see you later, Roxie.***
Yeah, later.***

Heh, that's hilarious, Pumeco!

"The btch needs to die."* That's so Top Model.

Haha, glad you both like it!

You have to click on the pic to notice it, but there's a weird white thing near her mouth, never noticed that.
Just checked the scene, had the light angle too sharp for the SSS setting used, duh!

Quote -
And what's your opinion of Victoria?***
The btch needs to die, obviously.**

Out the mouth of babes. :P Can't say I disagree with this one, Roxie.

Oh, she sounds so jealous of you know who :P

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

The roxie interview made me teh laff. :-)

@Netherworks
Roxie sends you a thumbs-up and wants to know if she can borrow your knife?
Can't imagine what she wants it for!

@aelkima**
**That was a brave comment, and I hate to tell you this but she saw it, she reads the thread ;-)

@Steve
Glad you like it, coming back to Poser feels great :-)

It could do with a whole new walk designer, though. Perhaps by giving it it's own tab or 'Room' and adding some of that 'motion design' and 'puppeteering stuff' that Reallusion and DAZ are doing - an Animation tab would be great!

As a stills figure tool, Poser always was the best and still is. It has the best interface but animation feels lacking.

I hope you'll consider something along those lines for the next release, that's basically my personal wishlist because I'm already more than happy with the figure and rendering technology you have in there. It'd also be cool to see a better dynamic hair system because it feels awkward and unpredictable (but not as important as the animation features).

.![](http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/art/emoticons/laugh.gif)

That's classic man :lol:

You know what's extra funny is that 'over-the shoulder' look you gave Vickie. I've seen that exact look a few times in real life. It generally happens in department stores when they're shopping for clothes. I don't think they realise they do it.

The posture is spot on as well, sort of like a skulk.

As for the expression on Roxie, well, I'd say that's typical Roxie! :biggrin:

I would like to make an update to my first post. I still think the software is the main reason anyone buys Poser. Some people point out that content is what sells the software, which may be true for someone who has been using it for 13+ years. And it has been pointed out that you can get DS for free. But what a lot of people do not see, since they have been in it for a long time, is that the content that comes with Poser, even if old, is enough to start someone out playing with all the features without having to download a ton of content.

I bought my newphews Poser 9 for Christmas (2012). They enjoyed it so much that I got them Poser 10 for this last Christmas. Part of the reason is all the content that is included allowed them the chance to play with all the aspects of 3D modeling. And for $80 how much of what get with Poser can you buy at a store? A fast count shows 150+ items (objects, not poses, expressions,textures), works out to about 50 cents a piece. While it would be nice if all the content was updated to the latest version that would be a serious undertaking, and would take away all the reasons for people to look for advise on how to improve their shaders etc.

@Pumeco great interview with Roxie.

@ EClark I would like to thank you for all the effort you have been putting in making things for Roxie.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

Content or Software?

**
**

**Both!!! **

imho,

and do it faster. a strong point is the soft physics, dynamic hair and cloth. can't say for the jiggle, since i don't have pp14.
improve it!

do it before garibaldi offers soft hair

**if they need more help, **they should offer to pay blackheart's mortgage, lol.

got to spend money, to make money. can't stand on laurels like no one else is out to steal your market.

less poser users means less market for poser content makers.

2 bonus strong points - the Koi Man & the Teyon. they should pay them mortgages too.

bookmark - ressurect this thread in a couple years for giggles :)

♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

*** Roxie, the mesh with an Attitude !***

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Free is fine, there is nothing wrong with the idea or concept of free. A certain, important aspect of this community is built on free -- free content, free tutorials, free advice, all done out of the love of sharing/giving and so on.

There are a lot of good applications that are free. Audacity, CamStudio (Recorder), The Gimp, Blender, etc. I'm trying to think of the ones I use or have used. But even with those, they don't always meet everyone's needs, wants or desires, so freely available is not the end all of it. I'm fairly sure, too, that those have made an impact into the various commercial markets. However, Photoshop still has its share and followers. Cinema 4D, Lghtwave and so forth too. I can say from dabbling in the modding community that a lot of folks are using Gimp and Blender but at least as many are using Photoshop and Max.

I see parallels here versus the mod community, in a lot of different ways, that I won't mention depthfully as to derail this thread (like too much made for Body "X", which could be V4 and not enough stuff make for Body "Y", which could be Roxie or whomever - it is really uncanny).

Software isn't always bound by a financial situation. It can be but sometimes folks just like this or that better, regardless.

Content and so forth, it's no good to have a bunch of CDs/DVDs with nothing to play them in, so you need the unit too. Every once in a while you get a new unit because the old one is out of date or this new one has some nice, new features. Maybe you're comfortable using the old one for a while longer, maybe not. Maybe you have to buy a few less CDs to afford the new unit. Should the unit come with its own movies? Maybe a console is a better analogy here, LOL... Anyways, if it comes with something you can put in it, it's never going to be to everyone's liking. If a CD player (just pretend here) came with a Slim Whitman CD, I'm very likely to never play it. Particularly if my Martian friends came over... :P

Sorry a bit sleep deprived, not 100% sure what I'm saying. :D

Ah this is a CGI ART Forum ,not a poetry forum.
So who wins at Art ? The one with the best Art Gallery.
The one with the Wicked cool ,killer Renders.
All I see is a poem and 2 half hearted attempts at a Render.
So where's my wicked cool ,Killer ,All in heart & soul Roxie Renders ?
That are worthy of any gallery in the universe ?

Don't know if I would aggravate potential customer's that use Vicky.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Don't know if I would aggravate potential customer's that use Vicky.

Are you saying I was doing that or someone else?

Quote - > Quote - Don't know if I would aggravate potential customer's that use Vicky.

Are you saying I was doing that or someone else?

Someone else

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Okay, sorry, I've just been having that happen a lot lately. I write something and someone reads it and takes to the furthest extreme. Just wanted to make sure :)

RorrKon, if you're referring to the interview or the quickie render I did with a jealous Roxie, those were just us having a little fun. No one's saying anything bad about Vicky (well except Roxie).

I'm not trying to antagonize Vicky users, but then again I don't really make anything for Vicky anyway. So what are they going to do buy my stuff for Roxie and not use it? That'll show me!

Lighten up!

For a minute there, I thought he was talking about me :biggrin:

After all, I'm one of only two here who posted a half-hearted render (which only took like 10 minutes work, if that, so that's a big fat positive for Poser in my book).

QUOTE:
"Don't know if I would aggravate potential customer's that use Vicky."***

But Vicky in all her innocence is a "potential" threat, she's almost a monopoly. You can hardly blame Roxie for picking-up on that. Monopolies need to be dealt with no matter what industry they're in, because if you fail to do so, those monopolies turn around and deal with you instead - it's the nature of the beast. Victoria's popularity is a perfect example of something that Smith Micro could, and should, deal with.

One thing they absolutely should not do, in my opinion, is support Genesis. The program is more important than the figure, simply because, the figure is always free to be modified by the customer whereas the program, isn't. What this means is that the "potential customer" would be faced with a choice.

Do they go with their figure of choice, or program of choice?

Naturally, the answer to that one is "program of choice" because the figure can be always be adapted by the customer, whereas the program, cannot. Remember, "potential customers that use Vicky" only exist because there are "customers that use Vicky", and that's what needs to change or at the very least it needs bringing down to equal levels of popularity between the DAZ and Poser figures.

Technically, Roxie is already popular in that she exists in every Poser 10, Pro 2014 Runtime, and she will still exist in the next, and the next, and the next. The amount of lagacy figures in the Poser Runtime should be indication enough to "potential customers" that buying content for Roxie, or in fact any Poser figure, is pretty much as safe as it gets from an investment point of view.

Think about that.

The problem, though, is to make customers see it like that, to get her out of the Runtime, and into the renders. It's likely the only way you'll ever get to see those "Killer Roxie Renders" you speak of.

I should point out that "ROXIE - THE INTERVIEW" wasn't actually posted for the reasons I just pointed out above. As with EClark, it's there as light-hearted fun and I'm guessing Roxie is literally laughing her nipples off right now.

Right Rox?

Yeah man, chill, I have plans for Vicky so don't get too attached - 'k?***

I just raided the DAZ stores and discoverd over a thousand of the biches!*
It's gonna be harder than I thought.

So here's the plan: you get someone from here to help me out. Send them over to the DAZ forum and tell them to let the people over there know that Roxie is out to get Victoria - and point them to my interview as proof.

**Then, while they're all over here trying to hunt me down, I'll be over there, hunting the btch down. By the time they all retreat back to the DAZ forums, I'll have her ass for shoe-leather!

Roxie's the name, Posing's the game:******

POSER>RUNTIME>ROXIE!

Agreed, completely. I don't lament the existance of "whomever", it matters not one bit which piece of content it is. It is more about leveling the playing field, which at the very least should be the "low goal". It's not destroy Vickie and all those who follow her.

I think V's big enough to take a little jab, which was done in a humorous, tongue-in-check way. I'd think it would be just as humorous if you guys posted renders of Vicky making a retort.

I think, for me, I have figures that I absolutely do enjoy, but I'm not so invested in them that it's what it's ALL about. I include figures I"ve built and had the pleasure of helping with or otherwise supporting in that number.

Reminds me of not long after V4 first came out. I was lamenting the fact that Aiko 3 was now a morph of V4 and the talk was that Stephanie 3 would soon be joining her. I posted a render of V4 engulfing Aiko with S3 looked on in panic.

I know a lot of people really loved the fact that Aiko was now part of V4 but I really wasn't one of them. To me, Aiko lost that anime toon look that made her distinctive. I never really liked Stephanie 4 either. Plus most of the clothes I had for V4 never fit her. I guess that's another reason I wasn't really sold on Genesis. I could use Genesis for Victoria, but I'd probably stick with Michael 4 or Stephanie 3 or Aiko 3 anyway.

Oh, one more thing. While I definitely think Poser is software driven, I am under no illusion that DAZ Studio is definitely content driven.

Yeah man, agree. Stephanie Petite and Aiko 3 kind of lost their distinction and their identity by being fused into the next generation. That's not to say not let a figure have morphed identies but it removed something in those cases because they were so unique as figures. One could say that, well, Stephanie originally was a re-sculpt of Michael but Stephanie Petite was completely different and the idea of releasing a shorter, younger girl-next door model than an experiment.

Some of that, too, IMHO, is over-branding. Calling New Coke, Coke, when clearly it doesn't taste the same at all. Yeah the "C" word is in there but... you know, it's not Coke Classic.

But I'm sure that some folks really like those sculpts too, no knocking them. They're just different.

Not knocking them and it's not like Aiko 3 stopped working because A4 came out.

Not knocking anyone & don't get emotionally involved when it's others meshes.
Really don't get all that emotionally involved with my own meshes.
If you post on a Pro forum ,they will rip your mesh to shreds if it's not worthy.
No mercy.

So I'm just trying to be helpful and educational.

Anyways ALL the DAZ Poser forums have a deal to snuff out negative comments.
So any negative campaign will be snuffed out sooner then latter.
& more then a few here are really tiered of hearing about the DAZ Poser wars.
& it's a good bet anyone that has Roxie in there runtime also has a lot of V4's stuff.
So there probably some what attached to V4 and don't really care to hear her called names.
& might not be all that enthusiastic to buy Roxie's stuff or any thing from a vender that cusses there Vicky.

So I think a positive campaign would work a lot better and defiantly last a lot longer.
So how do we run a successful campaign ? Look to see who has ran a successful campaign ?
So who has ran the most successful campaign in CGI history ?

ZBRUSH !!!

Yes zBrush . We all know every one has too have zBrush now but.
At one time it was ranked so low it didn't even have a very low rank.
No one had herd of it and those few that did ,didn't care.

I really would like to see some responses to these two questions.

Before they ever downloaded zBrush's demo.
What made ALL the Artist ,App's ,Studios etc etc notice a nothing App ?

If you went to zBrush ,LW ,Modo ,C4D ,Max ,Maya ,Softimage and said DAZ has a monopoly on characters.
zBrushCentral_TopRow
What do you think There response would be ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

ZBrush was a 2 and 1/2D painting application. People knew of it but many thought it was interesting but not useful for day to day use. Then Pixologic explored the idea of taking the 2 and 1/2D feature set and turning it into a fully 3D sculpting program. They got several studios to help them with this through beta testing and answering questions about what they wanted in such an application. They had what seemed to be (and continues to seem to be) an unending supply of money for research and development. When ZBrush 2 released people couldn't imagine the polycounts Pixologic claimed were truthful - nor could they see a use for so high a polycount. Fast forward to the present and there's not a single FX studio that can get by without some form of sculpting now - be it via mudbox, zbrush or another application. I was invited to beta ZBrush 2 and turned it down because I was one of those artists that couldn't see a use for all those polys (and honestly, my work in Rhino at the time wouldn't have needed it). Still kick myself everytime I think about it. lol

I got zBrush 1.55b Don't remember but somewhere around $50,$75 not much anyways.
Just to see a million polycount mesh on windows 98 PC with 64 RAM ,8 RAM 3D card.
Just thought of zBrush as a toy till Displacment Maps.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - So I think a positive campaign would work a lot better and defiantly last a lot longer.
So how do we run a successful campaign ?

Are you talking about a campaign to promote Roxie? Because if you are, the answer is easy: show us the renders.

Show us the renders that rival those done with DAZ figures -- by Paul Francis, Caisson, RedSpartan, louly, Isikol, Maddelirium, DarkPhoria, blbarrett, RGUS... While these artists' images may not be to everyone's taste, they do exhibit an unquestionable level of skill.

To be sure, occasionally some of these folks will experiment with alternative figures, but their galleries look to me to be overwhelmingly full of DAZ peeps. I wonder why?

I keep hearing that Roxie can be morphed into anything, that she can be this and that. Great!! Show us what she can do! Produce a whole bunch of truly fabulous finished and polished renders that demonstrate her superior features, and I believe it will be far more persuasive than the longest discussion thread in this forum. And by all means, postwork the hell out of those renders. Those other guys do.

If the content is versatile enough, once the artists (the ones who make great renders) see how it can be used, they will turn to it again and again. But some people have to see to really believe....

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Why don't SM Dawnify Roxie as Hivewire has done with their figure?

After that there will never be anymore problem for Roxie. If you like her, let her have that little vanity.

So there, now you have a posetive campaign.

To be honest I can't even do renders like those of the artists you mentioned even WITH the DAZ figures they used. Or yeah, I'd use Roxie. and V4, and Dawn, and Antonia, and Miki 4 and Stephanie 3 and Aiko3 or whoever else I felt like using. I don't do renders. I did a web comic and guess who iI used, V4 and V3. DAZ figures. Why? Because i had a lot of stuff for them mainly. But Occasionally I pulled out some Poser figures as well if for nothing else, just plain ol variety.

One of the reasons ZBrush is so popular is their business model.

People who don't own a ZBrush licence get to watch-over the threads and see the endless amount of praise that is bostowed upon Pixologic on every release without fail. The onlookers get to see the constant free upgrade being given to Pixologic customers.

You only have to combine the sheer power of ZBrush with this business logic to understand why even those on a low income are prepared to put the cash away, until eventually, they can afford it.

For a figure like Roxie or indeed any future figure, I think the obvious way to fight the figure popularity war, is for Smith Micro to create their own "Mascot" girl. All she needs is a name that's cool (Roxie would have been perfect). A quality topology, Teyon is the man. And for Smith Micro to give her away for free, just as DAZ have done with Victoria.

Most importanly they need to make it perfectly clear that the "Mascot" figure is there for all, and is not under the same policy as the Poser Runtime girls. Smith Micro stand to lose nothing by doing this, because even if a person was to download the new figure and not get attracted to Poser, the fact remains that a Smith Micro figure is doing the rounds, replacing a DAZ one.

All you need is Teyon to model her, some kick-ass talented artists to prepare release renders, a little content to be going on with, and to give the girl some attitude (that's important otherwise she's just another mesh without one). Victoria has been doing the rounds for years, she's in a billion renders, yet for all that popularity she has no persona whatsoever.

Roxie however, does, literally overnight.

Like it or not, a sassy, sexy, girl with an attitude is something that sells - always will do. Some might not like the persona I gave to Roxie and I can appreciate that, but the point is, she has one and she's being talked about a little more because of it.

Give her a nice "sweet" persona and see what that would do for her image ;-)

Do it right, publicise it right. And above all be sure to ensure the whole thing happens in one massive publicity wave, otherwise, it's just effort to the wind.

For many years Gen3 and Gen4 was compatible with both Daz Studio and Poser. That was because of Daz, that did all the work. Poser didn't seem to care. Now the roles are turned around, now it is Poser that has to adjust. Either by embracing Genesis (that was offered for free as I understand) or by "Dawnifying" the figures. I can understand their disappointment, but capitalism and free market have created all the welfare in the world. Nobody said it was perfect. Any other third to make it has no more chance to succeed than the proverbial snowball.

Quote - For many years Gen3 and Gen4 was compatible with both Daz Studio and Poser. That was because of Daz, that did all the work. Poser didn't seem to care. Now the roles are turned around, now it is Poser that has to adjust. Either by embracing Genesis (that was offered for free as I understand) or by "Dawnifying" the figures. I can understand their disappointment, but capitalism and free market have created all the welfare in the world. Nobody said it was perfect. Any other third to make it has no more chance to succeed than the proverbial snowball.

It's not the content, it's the software. Poser doesn't have to do anything. They don't make or lose any money off of Genesis or Dawn. It's the users who have to decide what they want to do, support Genesis, support Dawn, or use another figure. I don't have anything against Dawn. I don't use Genesis, even though Joe Public has shown me a way to get it into Poser without having to open Studio, for the same reason I don't use Dawn. Roxie's more fun for me to use. And that's what I'm using Poser for... to have fun.

"And that's what I'm using Poser for... to have fun."

Thats ok -for you.

But a company is not in the business primarily for fun. Its for generating income to its owners, their employees and their partners. And if they fail to that the outcome is very sad for a lot of people.

Quote - "And that's what I'm using Poser for... to have fun."

Thats ok -for you.

But a company is not in the business primarily for fun. Its for generating income to its owners, their employees and their partners. And if they fail to that the outcome is very sad for a lot of people.

They're not in busines to support their competition either.

"They're not in business to support their competition either."

Not even if their survival depend on it? Daz would never have made it without supporting the competition.

Quote - "They're not in business to support their competition either."

Not even if their survival depend on it? Daz would never have made it without supporting the competition.

At the time DAZ wasn't the competition.

Ok, I rest my case. But I understand better now the old saying, "Pride goeth before the fall".

I'm not exactly sure I see what the problem is. Joe Public has shown me that Genesis works in Poser. Not natively, maybe but it works... enough to render the pictures want. You can pose and morph Genesis. You can dress it, put hair on it, etc. You HAVE Genesis in Poser. So you should be happy.

Ach, please. . . . No body will "fall" over anything.

Earl has it right; "Poser is for fun." With a box or a ball, a cube or a cylinder.

A thing with wings or feet, as long as you are having fun doing so.

Only a limited number of vendors try to forcefeed "their beauty" through our throaths.

STOP pushing, it is counterproductive, and an complete loss of time.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

"forcefeed "their beauty"?

It is the functionality I am after mr vilters. But,

To show how easy it is with Dawn I will publish a new freebee every day here at Renderosity. In both Poser and Daz version. The Poser version will always be both confirming and dynamic.

Its easy to talk lets walk the dog.

Starting today!

QUOTE:***
"They're not in business to support their competition either."

Simply put, exactly, and that's why I personally feel that supporting Genesis is something Smith Micro absolutely should not do. Surely the time spent coding the requirements for Genesis into Poser would be better spent creating their own competition to Victoria - their own freely available mesh - their mascot girl.

This situation can be likened to the electronics industry and how a lot of them have helped Apple to put themselves out of business. Rather than refuse to build iPod compatible docks, they supported them and cut out the need for their own products in the process. Same with record stores, they sold iPods and now those iPods and the like have put many of them out of business.

Sure, go ahead, support Genesis then :-D

I pointed out earlier that I intend to be a vendor myself, and it goes without saying that I'll be supporting Genesis too. One thing I won't be doing, though, is creating cross-compatible content. I'm a strong believer in DAZ products for DAZ, Poser products for Poser - I wouldn't bring Genesis into Poser even if it were officially coded in to the program.

I'd like to point out that I do not shun the DAZ products, in fact nothing could be further from the truth. I like DAZ the company, I think DAZ Studio is an incredible program, and Genesis is a beautiful piece of work. That said, I hear the workload put on a vendor is already quite epic, so I have no intention of making mine any larger than necessary, the rewards are not enough, that much is obvious.

I say Poser products for Poser, DAZ products for DAZ Studio, but it sounds like that's just me.

That's ok.

Quote - I'm not exactly sure I see what the problem is. Joe Public has shown me that Genesis works in Poser. Not natively, maybe but it works... enough to render the pictures want. You can pose and morph Genesis. You can dress it, put hair on it, etc. You HAVE Genesis in Poser. So you should be happy.

If you follow the procedures in his Hacking Genesis threads, it does work natively; it takes some futzing around, though.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

Pumeco

I think you missed the point Malemedia was making about his teen figure being part of an ecosystem.

A new character can be launched without wardrobe or morphs. It has access to all those already in the ecosystem.
No need to get other vendors to commit time and effort, gambling on its success.

From other vendors point of view, they may have lost some sales from selling to multiple figures.
...but they get new customers from the users who work with extreme stuff like toons, kids or werewolves (or even males!!!).
With little or no extra work from the vendor as the ecosystem takes care of the details.

There are more benefits than drawbacks to Poser having an ecosystem of its own. (based on Roxie2 maybe?)

regards
prixat

Quote - Not knocking anyone & don't get emotionally involved when it's others meshes.
Really don't get all that emotionally involved with my own meshes.
If you post on a Pro forum ,they will rip your mesh to shreds if it's not worthy.
No mercy.

So I'm just trying to be helpful and educational.

Anyways ALL the DAZ Poser forums have a deal to snuff out negative comments.
So any negative campaign will be snuffed out sooner then latter.
& more then a few here are really tiered of hearing about the DAZ Poser wars.
& it's a good bet anyone that has Roxie in there runtime also has a lot of V4's stuff.
So there probably some what attached to V4 and don't really care to hear her called names.
& might not be all that enthusiastic to buy Roxie's stuff or any thing from a vender that cusses there Vicky.

So I think a positive campaign would work a lot better and defiantly last a lot longer.
So how do we run a successful campaign ? Look to see who has ran a successful campaign ?
So who has ran the most successful campaign in CGI history ?

ZBRUSH !!!

Yes zBrush . We all know every one has too have zBrush now but.
At one time it was ranked so low it didn't even have a very low rank.
No one had herd of it and those few that did ,didn't care.

I really would like to see some responses to these two questions.

Before they ever downloaded zBrush's demo.
What made ALL the Artist ,App's ,Studios etc etc notice a nothing App ?

If you went to zBrush ,LW ,Modo ,C4D ,Max ,Maya ,Softimage and said DAZ has a monopoly on characters.
zBrushCentral_TopRow
What do you think There response would be ?

if poser changes daddy's again, might be nice if it went to the zbrush company.

♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

Quote -
MistyLaraPrincess Quoteif poser changes daddy's again, might be nice if it went to the zbrush company.

MistyLaraPrincess You maid me realize every time Poser gets sold it's to some company I've never herd of.
Would be nice if a CGI company bolt Poser.
& zBrush company makes killer tools and has great tech support ,takes excellent care of there customers .
As far as I can remember ,Don't think I've ever paid for a up grade.

& back in the Poser 4 days there was a Poser version for Max called Character Studio.
1/2 way expected Max to buy Poser. Max did buy Maya & Softimage.
They have some wicked tools ,dynamics & rigs.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

@prixat
Naaah, I understood Male_M3dia perfectly.
In fact, he's one of the few here I agree with in this debate :-)

And I agree, Poser does need it's own ecosystem. But when I say "own" I mean exactly that; it needs it's own ecosystem, not one they've brought in from DAZ. To support the Genesis ecosysytem is to support the competition, and DAZ are the main competitor here.

Having their own Mascot Girl would effectively be Poser's ecosystem. If I were Smith Micro, or Steve, or whoever makes these decisions, this is the way I'd structure it:

Stick to the current release cycle for Poser.
Continue to create new characters and hang on to legacy content.
Develop a Mascot Girl seperately, they could even label her as part of "The Mascot Series"
The Mascot Girl must always be free while she's available seperately.
Give the Mascot Girl a life span of at least four releases.
On the fith release, the Mascot Girl automatically joins the regular Poser Runtime figures and becomes part of Poser legacy. She is removed from free availability and is replaced by the next generation Mascot Girl, who again, must be free. Those that have invested in her will already have enjoyed a lengthy period of use, and for those who buy a Poser licence, she continues to be available well into the future.
When the second generation Mascot Girl reaches four Poser releases old, she joins the previous Mascot Girl in legacy. And so the ecosystem continues, the Poser ecosystem, that is, not the DAZ one!

Smith Micro would need to market their Mascot Girl individually from Poser, even to the point where people who buy a Poser licence will still be required to download the current Mascot Girl from the same resource as non-Poser users would. No hidden nasties, she really must be free.

And vital in all of this is that Smith Micro MUST really hammer it home to people why supporting her is a good idea. That she's free and will be updated every four releases. That she'll always be available through legacy, and that creating content for a product that will reach legacy is as safe a bet as you can get.

If you'd invested a lot in Sydney, for example, the Poser ecosystem is still there for her, it hasn't gone anywhere. This train of thought needs amplifying to the point that everyone understands it.

That aspect of it is absolutely vital, and it's the biggest hurdle Smith Micro would face. They need to create a marketing campaign that would define, without question, the benefits of investing or developing for their Mascot Girl. The situation needs to be so that you could question any user and they would clearly understand the benefits, because if they don't, then all it means is that you failed to do the marketing correctly.

So yes, an ecosystem, a Poser ecosystem :-)

Roxie meets Blender3D.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

(Click to enlarge) Poser, Roxie and Blender3D, a mix from heaven.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I agree with moriador that Roxie needs a Killer Gallery & a Wicked Video defiantly wouldn't hurt either.

What made zBrush famous was Smeagol AKA Gollum.
In the Lord of the Rings Movies.
Sméagol was the first character we had seen with zBrush Displacement Maps.
& that was it we where fans. been fans ever since.
Rocketed zBrush to the top of CGI.
& As far as software Gallery's go ,There's none better then zBrushes.
First thing I do when I go to a software's site is see if there Gallery is any good.

Best campaign Blender ever ran was there Video shorts.
Sintel Tears of Steel
there's more at youtube.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - I agree with moriador that Roxie needs a Killer Gallery & a Wicked Video defiantly wouldn't hurt either.

What made zBrush famous was Smeagol AKA Gollum.
In the Lord of the Rings Movies.
Sméagol was the first character we had seen with zBrush Displacement Maps.
& that was it we where fans. been fans ever since.
Rocketed zBrush to the top of CGI.
& As far as software Gallery's go ,There's none better then zBrushes.
First thing I do when I go to a software's site is see if there Gallery is any good.

Best campaign Blender ever ran was there Video shorts.
Sintel Tears of Steel
there's more at youtube.

You people are still focusing on content. I'm focusing on tools. Poser has the tools to create those killer galleries you want so much. That includes the figures. But those figures need for the artists we all claim to be to capture the beauty. Texture maps, hair, makeup, poses, morphs. To me, at least, those should flow from the community. That's what the vendors are supposed to be selling. Problem is they're all selling for the same girl. What if Revlon only made makeup for Christie Brinkley? Or worse, what if Revlon, Maybelline, Covergirl, etc. all made makeup specifically for Christie Brinkley? You can have twenty people all clamoring for a piece of one pie, or you can have twenty people spread out among five pies. Who gets more pie?

Yum... Pie! :)

Teach them how to make pies and eat for a lifetime.

Quote -
You people are still focusing on content. I'm focusing on tools. Poser has the tools to create those killer galleries you want so much. That includes the figures. But those figures need for the artists we all claim to be to capture the beauty. Texture maps, hair, makeup, poses, morphs. To me, at least, those should flow from the community. That's what the vendors are supposed to be selling. Problem is they're all selling for the same girl. What if Revlon only made makeup for Christie Brinkley? Or worse, what if Revlon, Maybelline, Covergirl, etc. all made makeup specifically for Christie Brinkley? You can have twenty people all clamoring for a piece of one pie, or you can have twenty people spread out among five pies. Who gets more pie?

Actually who would get customers to pick their makeup and take it to the counter to purchase? Which would the customer pick up: the M.A.C. makeup that has a huge display with a top model beautifully painted with the advantages of using it and how it's made or the generic makeup that's just placed on the counter with no description or information and people are wary of using it because it's not known for quality and gives them skin issues?

That's really what you have here.

When Roxie was released last year, remember the huge promotion with the webpage specifically devoted to her, with her features and close ups of her skin and body? What about the long list of body morphs and clothing and artistic renders to show how she looked? And the clothing and packages available for her?

Remember that?

Oh yeah, that was V6, not Roxie. And Roxie can't be mad at V6 because of it, she should take that up with her management.

This was the extent of her promotion: http://poser.smithmicro.com/freefigures.html

Not even so much as a name drop.

You can't even click on anything to get a good look at her. This was simply opportunity lost, and showed the lack of committment in marketing her to the public and showcasing her as the result of Poser's features.

And for those that did load her up, there were several showstopping issues, including the eyelashes that came off if you tried to morph her eyes... and Rex had an issue where if you bent him a certain way, a polygon would fly out of each of his buttcheeks. Then there were the issues with face room, lack of body morphs and availability of clothing. You can imagine customers running into these issues and removing her from a scene and looking at figures that work better.

She wasn't in the spotlight for long before both Dawn and Genesis2/V6 stole the spotlight from her, which she didn't really had in the first place because issues overshadowed her release.

The thing is, if you really want people to use the figure, the makers of that figure needs to show that they're actually serious and committed to that figure. You can't expect customers to get serious and invest, when the maker can't do it themselves. You can't just leave it up to random people or vendors to do. But that committment did not happen and as such, she was generally ignored. Committment comes from the effort to properly market the figure, get people on board to show lovely renders of her, and have vendors ready to create content so that people can use the figure in their renders at release. The main push needs to come from the maker because they have the larger reach, you won't get anything accomplished from a forum that not everyone visits. And you'll certainly be hard pressed to get any momentum going a year after the release, when other figures are on the scene that are getting the support that the figure could have had an opportunity to get.

Well stated, M_M...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

I don't think any particular figure can lay claim to the Queen Victoria crown just yet, including Genesis/V6. No, Roxy won't lay claim to it either, but I'm not trying to push Roxie to the top. Just keep her in the game. And it's not like DAZ hasn't had missteps or I wouldn't have a V4, V4.1 and V4.2 in my runtime or a new version of Studio out every other week.

Quote - I don't think any particular figure can lay claim to the Queen Victoria crown just yet, including Genesis/V6. No, Roxy won't lay claim to it either, but I'm not trying to push Roxie to the top. Just keep her in the game.

Yes, but it's hard to keep her in the game if no one knows she's in the stadium.

Every figure has issue and problems; however, those other figures at least had some type of marketing push and committment behind them, rather than just saying "Here.".

How do you expect people to switch and use your character, if they have absolutely no idea who she is and what she does? And how do you expect to invest, when they see the maker not really standing behind it?

QUOTE:******
"How do you expect people to switch and use your character, if they have absolutely no idea who she is and what she does? And how do you expect to invest, when they see the maker not really standing behind it?"***

Agreed, and that's the difference between DAZ and Smith Micro, it's why Victoria rules in popularity and poor Roxie is practically unheard of. It's something they need to work on assuming they'd even want to. For all we know they could be sat in their boardroom right now, laughing their heads off at out suggestions. Let's face it, Smith Micro are big for a reason, they knew how to get there.

Anyway, I'll have to drop out of this debate now, I can't believe how much time I've spent here in the last few days. One thing I'm really curious about, though, is "Avanquest Software", what's that all about?

On Amazon UK, Poser is listed as being produced by "Avanquest Software". Is that another change-over or just a distributor thing?

Well, it's not a typo

http://www.avanquest.com/UK/software/poser-pro-2014-501151

I am guessing a distributor or partner.

Quote - ***

Anyway, I'll have to drop out of this debate now, I can't believe how much time I've spent here in the last few days.

Shhh! That was the point of the thread.

Quote - How do you expect people to switch and use your character, if they have absolutely no idea who she is and what she does? And how do you expect to invest, when they see the maker not really standing behind it?

I don't. I've said repeatedly... Roxie is a tool for me to learn with. Yes, I'm making things for her, I'm learning. I'm not in it to make a buck, I'm in it to learn. I hope Roxie will hang around for a couple of more generations. I think I'm starting to get the hang of some of this stuff and i'd like to see where I can take it.

Well all the sites except Renderosity seem to have there own mesh.
CP has Roxie and all the other Poser meshes.
Runtime has My Michelle.
DAZ has Vicky.
HiveWire3D has Dawn.
1/2 way been expecting Renderosity to release there own Characters.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Well all the sites except Renderosity seem to have there own mesh.
CP has Roxie and all the other Poser meshes.
Runtime has My Michelle.
DAZ has Vicky.
HiveWire3D has Dawn.
1/2 way been expecting Renderosity to release there own Characters.

______________________

SSSHHHHH they did. it went very bad..... Brenda, I think the name was.. huge fiasco...

my bad.. it was Renda

Quote - SSSHHHHH they did. it went very bad..... Brenda, I think the name was.. huge fiasco...

my bad.. it was Renda

lol yes. And if you do a google search for Renda and Renderosity, you can still see her. It even links back to the MP. But a search for her in the MP here directly won't produce any results.

~Shane

To be honest, I don't remember her.

Quote - > Quote - *SSSHHHHH they did. it went very bad..... Brenda, I think the name was.. huge fiasco...*my bad.. it was Renda

lol yes. And if you do a google search for Renda and Renderosity, you can still see her. It even links back to the MP. But a search for her in the MP here directly won't produce any results.

And Eva at RDNA, which is better off forgotten.... :rolleyes:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

Hmm, never heard of Eva til just now.

Googled some images tho, looks pretty nice from what I could see.

So does DAZ attack any figure they view as a potential threat and try to claim copyright violations?

There seems to be a pattern here. That's at least twice now.

~Shane

actually, Daz did'nt even know on Renda until it was pointed out on the forums here, she had the same rig as V3... right down to several decimal places... wasn't till later Daz actually got involved.. the thread about it all just vanished you see.....

Hmm, never heard of Eva til just now.

Googled some images tho, looks pretty nice from what I could see.
So does DAZ attack any figure they view as a potential threat and try to claim copyright violations?

There seems to be a pattern here. That's at least twice now

Let's say, Renda borrowed more than just V3's rigging.

As for EVA...

Load Jessi 1 Low res. Subdivide her once. Look at the topology.

Then look at EVA's topology.

Nothing more to say.

;-p

Quote - Hmm, never heard of Eva til just now.

Googled some images tho, looks pretty nice from what I could see.

So does DAZ attack any figure they view as a potential threat and try to claim copyright violations?

There seems to be a pattern here. That's at least twice now.

It wasn't DAZ in the Eva case; it was SM...

If the rig was the reason for Renda's issues, that would be ironic, because the DAZ generation 2 figures included versions rigged as Posette and Dork, although they perhaps asked first...

X-Post with JP.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

Attached Link: https://web.archive.org/web/19970506145700/http://www.zygote.com/catalog/catawom.htm

"If the rig was the reason for Renda's issues, that would be ironic, because the DAZ generation 2 figures included versions rigged as Posette and Dork, although they perhaps asked first..."

Posette and Dork were made by Zygote.

Digital-Art-Zone was Zygote's subdivision for Poser content. Poser licensed Posette and Dork and the animals, but DAZ still had the rights to publish content based on them.

I was aware they were by Zygote. I didn't realize it was a licensing arrangement; I thought it was a Work for Hire, as a contribution to a collective work, in which the copyright belongs to the commissioning party...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

Attached Link: https://web.archive.org/web/19961207164439/http://zygote.com/specials.htm

Posette and Dork were part of Zygote's "Perfect People" collection. They were stock figures sold to anyone needing realistic humans in their CGI app.

"Let's say, Renda borrowed more than just V3's rigging."

as someone who was talking to the person that FOUND the issue at the time, it was the rigging that was the main issue. Sorry Joe. but I do know what I'm talking about on this one.

Quote -It wasn't DAZ in the Eva case; it was SM...

Apparently it was both DAZ and SM, according to this official statement on the issue by RDNA:

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?51569-FINAL-STATEMENT-EVA

So I'm going to assume it was some part of Possette that was used, since that was when zygote split and formed DAZ, and there was some legal controversy over the whole figure issue at the time, that made the figure open-source-but-not, or at least prevented either company from claiming complete ownership, or some such mess. I don't know. Whatever. None of it should matter now anyway. There have been a ton of figures born since then.

And the way to avoid crap like that is to #1: NOT steal any portion of a figure's mesh or anything else, and think you can get away with it, cause someone will always figure it out eventually and then you're screwed, at least reputation-wise if not legally/financially, and #2: ALWAYS keep development records of your original work, so that in the event someone does claim you took something from someone else's work, you have the proof that you didn't.

Over the last couple years that I've been building Lucas and Laila, I have nearly 30 gigs of development files for EACH figure. Every time I save something, I make a new save, instead of overwriting the previous, so that every change I've made is documented, just in case anyone ever gets ballsy and tries to claim this belongs to that or whatever. That is, in case I ever actually release the figures for public use.

~Shane

Quote - > Quote -It wasn't DAZ in the Eva case; it was SM...

Apparently it was both DAZ and SM, according to this official statement on the issue by RDNA:

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?51569-FINAL-STATEMENT-EVA

So I'm going to assume it was some part of Possette that was used, since that was when zygote split and formed DAZ, and there was some legal controversy over the whole figure issue at the time, that made the figure open-source-but-not, or at least prevented either company from claiming complete ownership, or some such mess. I don't know. Whatever. None of it should matter now anyway. There have been a ton of figures born since then.

And the way to avoid crap like that is to #1: NOT steal any portion of a figure's mesh or anything else, and think you can get away with it, cause someone will always figure it out eventually and then you're screwed, at least reputation-wise if not legally/financially, and #2: ALWAYS keep development records of your original work, so that in the event someone does claim you took something from someone else's work, you have the proof that you didn't.

Over the last couple years that I've been building Lucas and Laila, I have nearly 30 gigs of development files for EACH figure. Every time I save something, I make a new save, instead of overwriting the previous, so that every change I've made is documented, just in case anyone ever gets ballsy and tries to claim this belongs to that or whatever. That is, in case I ever actually release the figures for public use.

~Shane

might want to get legal copyrights also.

a lot of the timecompress on youtubes are Artist proving it's there's also.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

216 posts, Eight pages, and still an open thread.

Quote - 216 posts, Eight pages, and still an open thread.

Even more amazing the thread has gone through the 'Genesis' phase and come out the other side. Which is stunning when Genesis appears to be compulsory on any thread with more than one page and irrespective of the title of the thread.

Quote -

Posette and Dork were part of Zygote's "Perfect People" collection. They were stock figures sold to anyone needing realistic humans in their CGI app.

I wonder who hold the copyright of Poser 4 people

is it inherited to every new poser owner or it still remains on Zygote?

My FreeStuff

According to the Poser 5 EULA (I couldn't scrounge up a copy of Poser 4's, but I presume it's similar) the copyright on licensed content included with Poser remains with whomwver they licensed it from, so it would be DAZ in the case of the P4 people.

From the link JP posted above, to buy the Posette and Dork meshes and a few clothes in 1996 was $495. Posette Casual was $245. These would have been unrigged.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

DAZ? Not Zygote? This company still exists

My FreeStuff

Poser 4's manual gives credit for the P4 models to Zygote, so my guess is that the license remained with the parent company. Also if you check the list of credits in the About Poser box on 2014, Zygote is still listed.

Acuris sold them too. It apparently was a joint project, but Zygote must have taken it over entirely at some point as it later disappears form Acuris' catalogue...

http://web.archive.org/web/19961025022856/http://www.acuris.com/18pp.htm

Edited image to clothe the baby a bit...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

Here's some information about Acuris from its Founder Eduardo F. Llach. He doesn't mention the Perfect People, but he had sold the company in 1995 and the Trademark date for 18 Perfect People is in 1996...

http://www.llach.com/acuris.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

Warning: this might end up being REALLY long.

I agree with what some of the others here are saying about advertising, and I will demonstrate why I say that.

About 15 or 20 years ago, CGI started to become very prevalent in movies. I've been a computer geek for over 35 years, so I already knew what 3D graphics and CGI were. But suddeny they were "buzz" words, and friends started showing me galleries full of amateur renders and animations. A lot of very high quality animated renders of star trek ships and what not.

I had always considered 3D CG to be something that I would likely not be able to do, as I do not consider myself a talented person when it comes to art. I can barely draw a stick person. Seeing the work of these amateurs though fueled my interest and I did some reading on what it would take to start learning more about this field.

Most of what I read made it painfully obvious that getting myself set up to perform renders of the quality I was seeing in these galleries was way outside of my budget, and would take a serious investment of time. This would have been roughly 15 years ago.

I would occasionally still look around at options though, which eventually (not surprisingly) led me to Poser. Poser was something I could maybe afford, and that I could use as an entry level 3D product that would allow me to explore my creative vision without being a super talented artist or spending $40k and four years getting a degree.

At the time (maybe 10 years ago?), I did not know who made Poser. Poser, the software, is what caught my attention - not the company behind it. More impotantly, it was Vicky that caught my attention. I could not tell where Poser started and Vicky ended. Everything I searched for on Poser had information on Vicky and vice versa. For the longest time I didn't even know they were separate products from separate companies. It appeared to me that Daz, Poser, and Vicky were all one in the same.

I do not believe that I am alone in this, and it was a bit of marketing genius on the part of Daz to make it seem like Vicky and Poser go hand-in-hand. It is part of the reason why Vicky 4 has been so successful when compared to other, newer figures.

It wasn't until about two years ago that I did finally purchase Poser. I also purchased a crap ton of Vicky 4 stuff to go with it, because even up until two years ago I still wasn't really clear on the distinction between Vicky 4, Daz, and Poser/Smith Micro. Worse yet, until I started reading this thread, I did not really understand that Poser came with its own figures. There's a Roxie? There's a Rex? They were made by Smith Micro? They aren't from Daz? Wow! That's all news to me!!

It seems clear to me now that Daz has broken away from Poser. They are producing their own software and their own content for their own business model. Poser and Smith Micro should be doing somewhat the same. They don't have to make Daz an enemy, but they need to focus on their software, content for their software, and advertising that content.

It is very sad that I've been using Poser for two years and didn't even know about Roxie.

Some of you will read this and think, "Well you must be an idiot if you didn't know that Poser came with its own library of stuff". Maybe I am, but I really don't think so. I think I am in the same position that a lot of people coming into the 3D CG hobby are in: they do not know alot and want a fairly cheap, easy to understand introduction to making their own rendered scenes.

They do not spend hours and hours reading through forums on multiple different sites. They do not understand the sheer amount of information that is out there to read on image maps, bump maps, normal maps, displacement maps, and all the multitude of other topics there are to learn about. Chances are that they will never do any of that research. They want a cost effective tool that enables them to load some people, load some clothes and props, build their scene, and render it to a reasonable level.

That vast majority of the art out there that showcases Poser is built using Vicky 4, and I believe that a good number of people are still operating under the false assumption that Vicky 4 is the only (or main) model for Poser. That will never change unless Smith Micro makes a concerted effort to educate people, through marketing, about the content that comes with Poser.

If Roxie and Rex are the poster children of Poser, then their faces need to be plastered all over everything Poser related and clearly labeled. Poser, Rex, and Roxie need to be synonymous.

That is, if you want the marriage to Vicky 4 to end. I am making no statement or suggestion as to whether it should or not. I'm just telling you as one amateur hobbyist that recently entered into the market, that I had NO clue that I didn't need Vicky 4 in order to make renders in Poser.

Reallly think about that...

P.s. Yep! That got really long. Sorry. :P

mr_phoenyxx

"Some of you will read this and think, "Well you must be an idiot if you didn't know that Poser came with its own library of stuff".

I don't think you are an idiot at all but I am very glad you took the time and trouble to add such a long post. I think it is all to easy for the regular posters on any forum to forget they are in fact a very small minority. I have no way of proving it but your supposition that the majority of 3D artists are in the same boat you were in I believe is very near the truth.

I would like more people to have the knowledge to understand just what the 3D world has to offer and then to pick the parts that gives them the most pleasure. It is a shame then that so many threads revert back to the same arguments over the G figure and all the half baked ideas of why it happened and who was to blame. I have lost count of the number of threads that have been locked after the same people post with the same information they have been using for years now and it is no more valid (or useful) now than it was then.

New comers to the forum do not know of the hidden agendas of some of the posters and are ill equipped to understand what is fact and what is someone's very biased view. The end result is the really good information on figures, content topology and so much more is lost amonst all personal battles.

What a shame, we do a dis-service to those who are either new to the hobby or to the forum, if only we could stick with facts or well validated/reasoned opinion and leave it for the reader to make up their own mind.

I think I need to first qualify my post as comming from someone who uses Poser, DS, and Carrara. I like all three programs, and they all have their particular (and sometimes peculiar) strenghts and weaknesses. Of the three, Carrara is my favorite because it has the greatest flexibility and richest tool set. So, my views are somewhat skewed because of that fact.

I own every version of Poser statring with version 2 all the way to PP2014 (except for P10). I first started using Carrara at version 2, and like poser have used every version since CS2. One of the main reasons for getting Carrara in the first place was to be able to render Poser figures in a better renderer. So for me, from the begining, Carrara and Poser have been sort of a software suite. With the addition of DS, I've been able to pick and chose the tool that works best (often this means the easiest) for what I want to do.

Given the fact that I use Carrara more than Poser because of it's ease of use (for me), better render engine, easier more intuitive lighting system, and much more powerful and flexible tool set (except for cloth), IMVHO SmithMicro needs to focus on improving the software. They need to include caustics in the renderer, and fix the issues with IOR. There needs to be some way to easily include landscapes and vegetation in Poser, and create realistic outdoor atmospheres (again - my opinion) without using Vue. I also think that SmithMicro needs to step up to the plate and create figures that are of equal quality to Genesis 2 (male and Female) if they don't plan on implementing better support of DAZ figures.

Yes, I do realize that these are some rather dramatic requests, maybe even seem totally rediculous to most people here. But just try to see things from my point of view, as a person who uses multiple applications designed to take advantage of what was once a unified "Poser/DS ecosystem". If Poser and DAZ software/content continues to drift apart, I will be forced to make a choice between the two - Poser or DAZ, because it will simply become too expensive to try to support content for two different systems. Dawn was/is a great idea for vendors to create content that will work well in both Poser and DS/Carrara, but there is an extra cost associated with getting both versions. For those of us that do use both Poser and DS, that can add up rather quickly.

If the Poser/DAZ rift gets wider, I will be forced to chose one over the other for purely economic reasons. I honestly don't want to be forced to make that choice, and it will be a sad day when I have to do so. If I had to do it today, based on my personal needs (which actually go beyond "Poser" content), I'm sorry to say that Poser would be that application that would get dropped from future upgrades. Unfortunately the combination of Poser/Vue wouldn't work for me, because only Vue Infinite can fit the requirements of some of the work I'm doing, and it's just too expensive, when I can meet these needs with Carrara and one inexpensive plugin. So, simply put, there would need to be a lot more functionality in Poser, and better figures, to keep my business if the Poser/DAZ rift continues to grow.

I'm guessing that I'm rather unique among the Poser user base. There may only be a handfull of us that use all three applications, but I thought it might be important for the SM rep who is checking this thread to hear the about challenges that we are facing, and what I would like/need to see in future versions of Poser, depending on the direction that SM takes. I realize I'm in the minority here, and PLEASE don't use my post as a reason to start more app/figure wars in this thread, but for me, it would be much better if SM decided to support Genesis technology better, or really really improved functionality and capabilities of Poser.

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My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

When I started to use Poser 5 around 2003 I did not know that there were other figures to use. I found Poser in a store and drawn to the trapeze figures shown on the box front. I have been using computers for years and have been interested in CG since Cyber Paint came out for the Atari ST computers. I have also upgraded to each new version of Poser as it came out, however it has always been a physical copy since until recently my internet has been dialup or capped. Around version 8 I clicked on the Content Tab and was taken to Content Paradise where I saw some items that said for V4. No clue what a V4 was and it took a lot of looking to find out that it came from DAZ.

I picked up a copy of V4 since it was free and some of the items that made me look to see what a V4 was. In my experience V4 has the same problems with poke-through and bending that all Poser figures had. And since I mainly do animations it is nothing special and in fact in some ways harder to work with then the native Poser figures.

With the last versions of Poser a lot issues with animation have been reduced, not in how to make them but in how the figures move and bend. But it seems it comes down to a lack of content? We are now at point where there seems to be two choices in which direction to head. On the one side you have a group that wants a single set of vertices that can be made into anything and have cloths made to fit that set of vertices. On the other side you have a group that is trying to allow whatever cloths fit whatever figure.

For the first group programming wise it is somewhat simple to keep one set of polygons away from another set (cloths from figure). This is especially true when it is the same set of vertices used over and over. This is basically what Wardrobe Wizard does is looks at a set of polygons (vertices) calculates out where they are in relationship to the donor figure and where they need to be moved to fit the target figure.

For the second group it more a matter of going to the local mass market clothing store and picking up a shirt and pants in roughly the proper size. As has been demonstrated by several people in the past (Vilters in particular) the basic shape of most Poser figures is the same they are just scaled differently. Which is the way it is in real life and why we can go to the store and pick up a shirt off the rack and have it fit fairly well.

Again as Vilters has shown it is fairly easy to take an clothing items obj file and run it through the cloth room and setup room (or Fitting room) and make something that was made for one figure fit another. This makes it so that any figure can wear something and give people the chance to make a figure that is not bound by a set of rules that need to be followed in order to ensure cloths fit. This method makes it so the end user has to have a little bit of skill in order to make it happen. Not really a difficult skill to learn either.

The first group wishes to make it as easy to use as possible, mostly because in the past it has been hard to get things to work. The big issue for the first group is that in order to pose anything it has to be rigged and that has been a hard part in the past. Also a clothing items has to have all morphs built in or it will break if the underlying figure is changed into something the cloths do not support. This is still the case as this product talks about http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/sickle-super-clip-fixer-genesis/93993/ It is stiil recommended that the cloths be made as close the the final figure as possible to minimize issues.

Now it comes down to what the vendors wish to do. On the one hand they can try to remain a custom tailor making cloths fit a single figure and in some cases that is what is needed, especially with fantasy armor that covers maybe 3% of the skin, and that no one in real life would/could wear without being arrested. Or they can build cloths based on standard shapes and sizes and sell them so that the users can put them on any figure they wish.

The problem is no matter which route they take the improvements in software will make the custom tailor or even mass market redundant. So the only hope they have is making brand new totally different fashions and not recycling items from the last generation to the new. The users now have the tools to take a pair of jeans and t-shirt and fit it to the figure themselves. So if all you make is t-shirts and jeans how long can that last? The people who rely on content for a living are going to have to keep making small changes to the figures to make user have to have a reason to upgrade to the newest version of the t-shirt and jeans, or the users use the tools to make last year’s jeans fit this year’s model.

So the real question isn’t that there is lack of content it is more a matter of how is that content being packaged and how hard is it to get too? Using Poser most of the files are easy to open and are readable by humans, exceptions being picture files. Not sure about Studio files, but the fact you need DSON to be able to use them suggests that they are not as simple to use. So if vendors package the files in the old format then most people will be able to use them. If not then we need to start jumping trough hoops.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Content or Software?