...and other meshes are not !

Yeah, I could have used a less dramatic title, but I really wanted to grab your attention.

Because I would like to try to explain what this "DAZ MESHES RULEZ!" buisiness is all about.

(And I'm fully aware that even this "totally scientific experiment with pictures" will leave several of the Poser-users unconvinced)

;-P

But enough talking, let's have some pictures:

First render shows three objects:

A cube with a cylinder on top in green and two simple cubes in red and blue.

The red cube has 6144 polygons, the green cube has 89 polygons.

(You can count them later. For the moment, just take my word for it)

The objective is to morph the red and blue cube into the shape of the green one.

The more exact the morph will be, the better.

There is no doubt who the winner will be, isn't it ?

I mean, 6144 polygons vs 89 polygons, right ?

So let's morph the red cube first.

Ok, that morph looks "Green cube-ish", but if you ask me, it's a little underwhelming for 6144 polygons, isn't it ?

But I'm sure the blue cube will be a complete disaster, after all it has only 89 polys.

So let's morph the blue cube.

But that's this ? It morphs into an exact copy of the green cube !

How can that be ?

Well, it's because the blue cube is smart, while the red cube is stupid.

Or more exactly, it's mesh topology is.

So let's have a look at the mesh topology:

You can see the red cube has lots of polygons. But they are everywhere and scattered around without a real system.

The blue cube OTOH "knew" what shape it was supposed to morph into, so he has polygons and edges exactly where it needs them.

Now what is a Poser figure ?

Pretty much nothing but a very complicated cube. Lots of polygons and edges.

But some figures are "smart", and some are "stupid".

"Smart" figures "know" what shapes they are supposed to morph into, so their meshes have all the necessary details alread built in, even if you normally can't see it.

"Stupid" figures don't have that (Or at least much less) built in detail.

So they are much harder to morph. And look a lot less detailed. And need much more polygons. And no, SubD doesn't help creating better detail. At least not in Poser.

So, thats why Vicky 6 is currently "The smartest mesh around".

She's also the prettiest and best rigged and currently most supported, yes.

But that's not the reason why I use her.

I use her because beauty is nothing without brains.

:-)

!*/&%4!# typos:

That should read of course:

"The BLUE cube OTOH "knew" what shape it was supposed to morph into, so he has polygons and edges exactly where it needs them."

We REALLY need more time to edit posts and a way to add more than ONE picture to a post !

<"Amen" - basicwiz>

Thanks Joe - I always enjoy reading your posts.
Certain aspects of Poser make more sense after you have explained them :-)

Free stuff @ https://poser.cobrablade.net/

Seems like a lot of tris in that cube. I thought Poser didn't handle tris well. What am I not getting?

But Vicky 6 isn't a mesh; she's a morph of the Genesis 2 mesh...

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Lo or Hi resolution mesh.

A good mesh is build by a creator who knows human anatomy and who puts the edgelines where they are needed.

The rest can be done with careful management of crease angle and SubD.

My current is as follows.
Knowing that:

Smoothed meshes grow and expand.
SubD meshes shrink in size.

I always set crease angle at 180° on all figure groups, render with Smoothing enabled in the render settings, and at SubD level 1.

No shrinking or expanding any more, and Smooth figures that maintain size.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I hate that the 3d community has repurposed the word topology. Topology is the mathematic study of forms that are unaffected by deformations (bends, twistes, morphs, but not breaks). In that sense, your cube+cylinder, both cubes, and Vicky 6 all have the same topology. The correct word for what we're talking about is morphology - it would make total sense to recognize that one mesh flow anticipates a specific morphology better than another. For example, you probably are aware that Vicky 6 forehead cannot be effectively morphed into a third eyeball in the same way that your generic cube cannot effectively morph into an extruded cylinder. To do a good job of this, you'd want to add some more vertices and make new polygons that simply aren't there at the moment. Simply repositioning the existing vertices will not generate an adequate representation of an eye, lid, and lashes. The morphology (underlying structure and organization of the polygons forming the forehead) is just wrong.

Having recognized that we're going to use the word topology instead, I would enjoy seeing some examples of V6 (or is it Gen 2) mesh flow that anticipates certain morphs better than some other, previous meshes do.

For example, like your extruded cylinder, does the Gen 2 mesh anticipate a tail extruded out from the lower back? Horns? Third eye? Eyeballs and lids and lashes in the palms of the hands? What is so great about the Gen 2 "topology", exactly?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

This is over the edge : Purpose build, and misleading.

NO, Joepublic for Once I do not agree at all.

Change the first setup to a cube with a ball on top.

You could morph the red cube into "something similar".

No way you get something, anything alike out of your blue cube.

This is misleading and direction / result manipulated / controlled.

You "can" morph the red cube in almost any other shape, while the blue cube is VERY limited in its possibilities.

Na-na-, to build a "human" mesh, you need anatomy knowledge to put the edgelines where they are supposed to be.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote -Seems like a lot of tris in that cube. I thought Poser didn't handle tris well. What am I not getting?

For flat surfaces that aren't intended to deform, it's fine to use tris. Artifacts can start happening when the surface becomes less than flat.

The example is simplistic for demonstration purposes. It could just as easily been done with all quads but would have taken a bit longer to construct. It could also have been done with fewer polys in the center ring.

Quote -Topology is the mathematic study of forms that are unaffected by deformations (bends, twistes, morphs, but not breaks). In that sense, your cube+cylinder, both cubes, and Vicky 6 all have the same topology.

Topology is a perfectly valid word to use. In 3D modeling its important to differentiate between topology and morphology as they both represent different aspects. Topology is the specific pattern that makes up the overall surface of a geometric shape, which loosely conforms to the traditional mathematic definition (which is very generic to begin with). Morphforms are pulled from and dependant on the underlying topology. Many things can influence morphs, but they're all dependant on the underlying topology of the model. The only other word or phrase that could best describe topology is edgeflow, which is techincally two words.

Topology also has other uses based on the field of study. Biology, for example, or geography.

Quote -
In topology and related branches of mathematics, a topological space is a set of points, along with a set of neighbourhoods for each point, that satisfy a set of axioms relating points and neighbourhoods. The definition of a topological space relies only upon set theory and is the most general notion of a mathematical "space" that allows for the definition of concepts such as continuity, connectedness, and convergence. Other spaces, such as manifolds and metric spaces, are specializations of topological spaces with extra structures or constraints. Being so general, topological spaces are a central unifying notion and appear in virtually every branch of modern mathematics. The branch of mathematics that studies topological spaces in their own right is called point-set topology or general topology.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_space

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology_(disambiguation) (for other uses of the word topology)

~Shane

DAZ figures are usually meant to cover a wide range of more or less humanoid shapes.

That usually doesn't include horns, tails, hooves etc (Even though they can be easily "welded" to Genesis), but digitigrade feet, paws, four fingered hands, cyclope eyes, animal heads are all easily possible.

But the most important "smart feature" is a full set of anatomical detail built right into the mesh: Musculature, tendons, bone detail like kneecaps, shoulderblades, ellbows, etc. This is created the same way I built my blue cube: Anticipating the shape(s) the figure needs to morph into, and build the topology accordingly.

That's why Vicky-6 can be the exact same mesh as Mike-6 even though Mike has lots more musculature, and both can be children or bodybuilders or morbidely obese or Orks or Aegyptian gods or aliens.

That's the kind of detail that makes them easy to morph and realistic looking and that's the kind of "built in" detail created by a purpose built topology.

DAZ meshes have lots of this detail, and Genesis-2 simply is the latest (and most perfect) example.

Other human figures either have almost none of that or at least considerably less of that kind of detail. The result is that, try as you might, you never get as many different realistic shapes out of them than what you can get out of a DAZ mesh.

It simply is a fact that the more time and effort you put into building the topology, the more versatility and realism you can get out afterwards. Humans are complex shapes, so the more complex (Not dense !) the mesh is to represent their form, the better.

If Poser could use figures with 10 million polygons, we wouldn't have to worry about topology at all. With 10 million polygons, you can sculpt anything as detailed as you wish.

But Poser can't do that, so we have to use the smartest, the most complex meshes we can find if we want the best results possible.

And that, until someone builds an even "smarter" mesh, is currently Genesis-2.

With all of the Genesis advances, the problem remains... it is not fully functional or controllable in Poser like Vicki4.

Use-ability is really the first key obstacle in this arena. It's why there's 1 Genesis product for every 100 V4 products in the Renderosity marketplace.

Reality... despite the advances.

Make it useable in Poser... FULLY... then climb on the hill and sing its glory.

What do you mean by "fully functional" ?

Genesis loads with a single mouseclick, it poses by clicking on a pose file, you can apply textures by clicking on a mat pose.

Clothing "auto converts" in a few seconds to any bodyshape you dial.

You can add bodyparts like detailed genitals or a second pair of arms or a trunk or a tail.

You can use high resolution HD morphs that make displacement maps redundant.

You pretty much can create every remotely humanoid shape you can imagine. And all textures and clothing and poses still work.

I think that's a lot more functionality than V4 brings to the table. (And BTW, V4 also has some "Studio only" functionality)

WHAT DOES NOT WORK IN POSER:

If you install gazillions of morph packs, then, yes, Genesis slows down. Same as V3 or V4 if you load all the morphs that are out there for them.

And if you save Genesis in a .pz3 scene file with an UV set other than the default UV's, you have to re-apply that texture/UV set again once you load that scene again.

(But there are quite easy workarounds for both problems)

I will say, the latest DSON importer loads Genesis REALLY slow. However, the morph transfer to clothing is much better, so it's a plus, overall..

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

I just tested and on my i5 laptop Vicky 6 with four "characters" installed takes 12 seconds to load via the DSON importer while she takes 8 seconds to load from a native Poser cr2.

I don't think that's too bad compared to how long it takes to inject morphs into V4 or V3.

Joe, what exactly do you mean when you say "realistic" because frankly, V5 doesn't look any more realistic than any other Daz mesh to me. I'm either not see what you're saying or paying attention to what you mean.

Genesis 2 Female base with the body and expression morphs takes me 29 seconds to load via DSON, and 15 seconds from a Poser Unimesh rigged saved CR2 on a 3.2GHz AMD PhenomII X6 (according to Task Manager I have about 12.5 GB free memory). This is the 1.1.2.117 version of the importer, which seems quite a bit slower than the previous version...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Makes sense, I'm still on 1.1.1.33.

Well, I'm still going to try the new one and see if I get a similar slowdown.

Ever thought about making slimmed down cr2 copys just for the main characters ?

I have several Genesis, G2F and G2M's with "fixed" UV mapping and only one or two morph sets.

I've thought about slimming down some Genesis 1 copies, but haven't gotten around to it. For Genesis 2, I only own the female face and body morphs bundle and Poke Away thus far, so she's not too bulky.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Great thread.

Stay tuned for the next philosophical speculation revealed: The Spherical Earth concept! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

It's not just V6 that is smart:) Give the men some credit as well:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2laBiFJZvM

My Renderosity Store

joe, I agree - you're one of our indispensable men!

"Stay tuned for the next philosophical speculation revealed: The Spherical Earth concept!"

Woe to you sir!!!
What manner of tomfoolery have you uttered???
technically the earth is an oblete Spheroid.. not a sphere,
this is due to it having bulged at the equator caused by the centrifugal force from eons of rotating.

yep this community has officially run out of things about which to debate.

My website

YouTube Channel

I think most people missed the point of JoePublic's demonstration. DAZ's figure meshes have been 'smart'ly modeled compared to a lot of the competing figures. DAZ figures show an understanding of anatomy in their edge flow whereas others look they where pulled out of a high poly cube. This is also the reason I have oftened said sculpting is not modeling as sculpted models tend to have horrible edge flow and unnecessary mesh density.

Quote - JoePublic's Quote

You can use high resolution HD morphs that make displacement maps redundant.

So DAZ HD morphs ARE = to displacement maps ?
DAZ HD morphs ARE NOT = to vector maps ?

Thanks for the info

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

All the older not ment to be SubDed Poser characters have Tri's.

The SubD rule is 100% Quads.

Quote - EClark1894's quote
Seems like a lot of tris in that cube. I thought Poser didn't handle tris well. What am I not getting?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - I think most people missed the point of JoePublic's demonstration. DAZ's figure meshes have been 'smart'ly modeled compared to a lot of the competing figures. DAZ figures show an understanding of anatomy in their edge flow whereas others look they where pulled out of a high poly cube. This is also the reason I have oftened said sculpting is not modeling as sculpted models tend to have horrible edge flow and unnecessary mesh density.

Oh I get the point, and I agree 100%. My bit of sarcasm was carried over from the other thread where the belief in good topology was challenged, seemingly as the belief in a flat earth. Even though there's mountains of evidence to the contrary, such as this thread, and hundreds of others around the web.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Backside comparison: Vicky 6, Roxy, Dawn

Frontside: Dawn, Roxy, Vicky 6

Vicky 6 vs Mike 6. Both are the exact same mesh, so they have identical topology.

Note how easily the Genesis-2 topology can be both male and female because the "muscle flow" is so well designed.

Yes, with some effort you can turn Roxy and Dawn into males, too, but the results will never be as detailed.

Okay, well, now I'm just confused. Not because of mesh differences but because of what I've heard about topolgy over the last two days. Roxie and Dawn's mesh seem designed to follow the musculature of the female body as I understand the point of topology. So they're doing what they're designed to do.

But V6 and M6 confuse me. From what I understand, the musculature was what tripped up V5 and M5 and why DAZ went back to the separate female and male meshes for Genesis. You're saying though that it's the same mesh. Now I watched this video from Johnathon Williamson from Blender explaining to me why males and females musculature is so different and has to be designed that way for them to look that way, and you show me meshes that seems to say he's wrong and topology doesn't matter as much as people say it does.

Attached Link: Torso Topology Overview

Just so no one thinks I'm justplaying dumb, here's the video by Johnathon Williamsson i referred to. So I'm not stating that you can't do what Joe says. It's kind of obvious that that's true, but I'm confused as to what I'm shown and what i'm being told. I was actually wondering why the male breast in the chest area didn't have the circular designs in it as the female did. Yes, I understood the general idea of women's and men's chest looking different, but if you look at human anatomy they SHOULD both be designed exactly alike, at least externally. It's only male and female hormones that change anything.

Edit: Well, that and the amount of body fat.

"Roxie and Dawn's mesh seem designed to follow the musculature of the female body as I understand the point of topology. So they're doing what they're designed to do."

They seem to. To your untrained eyes. But they aren't.

Noone ever said their topology is a complete mess. But why be content with 50% if you can have 95% ?

And even IF they were following female anatomy perfectly, that would still be "not good enough" because the more versatile a Poser mesh is, the better. There are women out there with more musculature than many men and also very feminine men. And then there are children and aliens and monsters and faeries and cartoon figures.

So a mesh that has all those possibilites built right in is simply so much more practical than one that focusses on a single shape. (But as I said, Dawn and Roxy might look "sufficient for an average female" to you at first glance, but they really aren't)

Rigging is another story. Splitting Genesis-2 again into a male and female figure allowed better rigging for each base shape. It solved also a psychological problem,as many vendors didn't like to work with a 100% androgynous mesh like Genesis 1.

Some people like to believe DAZ meshes are so popular because DAZ was at the right time at the right place. And that they pumped a lot of money in advertising. And that vendors then simply followed the herd. And once one Vicky was popular, the next Vicky was popular, too. And so on.

But that's only a fraction of the truth.

The DAZ figures are simply better designed. That's why they are popular.

And a big part of that better design is the better topology.

I can make any mesh look pretty or handsome. I can fix the rigging problems of any mesh, too. I can make any mesh look more realistic.

And I pretty much actually did that with every native Poser mesh.

But why spend my precious time with a poorly designed mesh if I can get better results faster from a mesh of better design ?

Is there any medal to be earned for supporting native Poser meshes ?

Let's be honest here:

If Vicky-6 would work natively in Poser one way or the other, 99% of the people now sticking with V4, Dawn or Roxy, would switch in a heartbeat.

Like they switched from V3 to V4 and never gave Jessi or Sydney or Alyson even so much as a second look.

That's what I wanted to explain:

There IS an actual, tangible difference between DAZ and all the other meshes.

NOT wanting to work with Dawn or any Poser figure is not a decision I made on a whim.

It's the result of 13 years of experience working with all kinds of figures.

Okay, look Joe, every time I mention Roxie's name is NOT an invitation to you to take a gratuitous swipe at her or Dawn. I've never said Roxie was better designed than Dawn or or V6. I wouldn't any way because as you said my eye is untrained. I AM pointing out and asking WHY I seem to be hearing one thing about topology and seeing another. Now if you can't answer that, fine, I'll ask someone else. Just say so.

I'm under no illusion that Roxie will take over as the number 1 mesh in the Poserverse. And I've said many times in the past that I would be using Genesis if it worked natively in Poser. It don't, though. The reason I champion Roxie, as I said in another thread is that she is a tool I use to learn how to create. Something I would probably NOT be doing if I was still using any DAZ mesh.

BTW, you can work with any mesh you want. I haven't passed any law that said you can't, so you don't need to explain anything to me in that regard.

@ JoePublic

Let me make something cristal clear here ; As white as snow, as deep as the ocean.

I am a Poser user, and Poser is my hobby and my passion.

I will NEVER - EVER use other then Posers native figures.

The more some here on the forum try to shovel Dawn or Genesis through my throat, the more I reject / disgust them.

And I fear I am not the only one being fed up with this forcefeeding some are trying to achieve.

Genesis is for DS. Period, Game over and closed, That is how DAZ wanted it, and that is how they will get it.

Dawn is just another Poserised DS attempt. Build in, and for DS, but "working", and let us leave it at that, in Poser.

Is this message clear enough ?

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I'm going to suggest that no one reply to the above several messages. All parties have made their points. Further back and forth over philosophy of why we use figures will lead to a firefight and another locked thread.

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the meshes all you like, and let it stop there.

This is the one and only warning I'm in the mood to give. Any further drama will end this.

(Dead horses are the bain of my existance.)

Quote - I'm going to suggest that no one reply to the above several messages. All parties have made their points. Further back and forth over philosophy of why we use figures will lead to a firefight and another locked thread.

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the meshes all you like, and let it stop there.

This is the one and only warning I'm in the mood to give. Any further drama will end this.

(Dead horses are the bain of my existance.)

Fine, doesn't look like anyone was going to answer my topology question anyway. I'll go find somebody else to answer it.

Quote - Vicky 6 vs Mike 6. Both are the exact same mesh, so they have identical topology.

Actually the topology is slightly different between the models. They have the same poly counts, but the distribution of the polys are more concentrated in some places than others. For example the female has more polys and a different flow around the breast area than the male. I believe the hips and limbs may be different as well to account for more male muscularity.

Oh, great. Now I've got to write back to Mr. Williamson explaining why i just called him a liar.

"Actually the topology is slightly different between the models. They have the same poly counts, but the distribution of the polys are more concentrated in some places than others. For example the female has more polys and a different flow around the breast area than the male. I believe the hips and limbs may be different as well to account for more male muscularity."

"Oh, great. Now I've got to write back to Mr. Williamson explaining why i just called him a liar."

Sorry Male_M3dia, you're wrong.

And no need to apologize to Mr Willamson, EClark1894.

I just exported V6 as an object file and loaded her to M6 as a Full Body Morph.

She loaded fine as a morph without any error warning.

G2M and G2F are exactly the same mesh.

Just like M1/2 and Stephanie 1 are.

All 3rd Gen Daz meshes are.

All 4th Gen DAZ meshes are.

And of course Genesis-1.

The point of this thread was to explain that my preference has nothing to do with emotions or "politics", but is simply based on cold, hard logic.

And I want to counteract the misinformation that is spread around when it comes to Genesis.

Quote - "Actually the topology is slightly different between the models. They have the same poly counts, but the distribution of the polys are more concentrated in some places than others. For example the female has more polys and a different flow around the breast area than the male. I believe the hips and limbs may be different as well to account for more male muscularity."

"Oh, great. Now I've got to write back to Mr. Williamson explaining why i just called him a liar."

Sorry Male_M3dia, you're wrong.

And no need to apologize to Mr Willamson, EClark1894.

I just exported V6 as an object file and loaded her to M6 as a Full Body Morph.

She loaded fine as a morph without any error warning.

G2M and G2F are exactly the same mesh.

Just like M1/2 and Stephanie 1 are.

All 3rd Gen Daz meshes are.

All 4th Gen DAZ meshes are.

And of course Genesis-1.

:-)

Yes, they're the same mesh with the same poly counts, so you can import morphs from one to another. However, how those polygons are distributed is different... female has more polys distributed in her breast area than the male. The male has more distributed elsewhere than the female.

The female and V6 was built first, then DAZ started over with the same mesh to make the male and M6.

"Yes, they're the same mesh with the same poly counts, so you can import morphs from one to another. However, how those polygons are distributed is different... female has more polys distributed in her breast area than the male. The male has more distributed elsewhere than the female."

Well, "distribution" normally referes to different topology. Like removing vertices from the head and putting them in the feet. That would make any direct morph exchange impossible.

Of course when you morph a mesh, vertices will be morphed closer to each other or spread apart. But the actual structure of the mesh flow doesn't change as otherwise the mesh would overlap and there would be undercuts.

This of course happens with with any mesh that is morphed.

I think we're simply using the same term for two different things.

Just explaining how it was explained to me when I moaned about the split. ;) Those areas are where the distribution is different between the models to make them more gender-specfic.

Seriously, someone should add Vicky-6 to Mike-6's "genepool".

Default V6 looks too statuesque for my taste, but as a morph for M6 with a few other morphs here and there, she tones done just enough to look much more "average".

:-)

10 more minutes of dial-spinning. Started with 0.7 "Vicky-6". Love the result.

Now I really want such a crossover figure. Lol.

I know Studio can "auto-rig" morphs so you don't have to mess around with the animated joint centers by yourself. Anyone know a tutorial about that ? I think it's just one or two clicks.

And of course I have to learn how to do Poser companion files.

:-)

Hey, I'm sorta derailing my own thread. LOL.

Quote - I know Studio can "auto-rig" morphs so you don't have to mess around with the animated joint centers by yourself. Anyone know a tutorial about that ? I think it's just one or two clicks.

Colorcurvature has a script in the MP to create a K4 morph for M4 . The resulting figure is weightmapped with animated centers; I wonder if it will work with figures that are already weightmapped? I'd try it, but I don't have either M6 nor V6 yet...

EDIT: I recall him saying that it would work with Nerd's V4WM, so it should work with weightmapped figures...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

One of the things about changing the size of the polygons while keeping the arrangement the same, as in V6 and M6 above, is that the UV map will get stretched and squeezed as the size of the polygons vary.. This is why V6 and M6 have different UV mappings which go on the same mesh.

It would be great if the 'skin' could be a dynamic cover over the underlying shape, so that it could adapt to minimise stretching, like real skin does. I guess it would need to be firmly attached to the underlying shape at strategic points to keep the nipples from sliding down to the hips, or up into the neck for example. lol.

Cheers

Ian

This should be even easier, JP; from Murgatroyd at DAZ...

***How To Transfer Morphs From G2F To G2M The Very Easy Way

You don’t even need to open Studio.

Copy the morph file from its subfolder of /data/DAZ 3D/Genesis 2/Female/Morphs/ to a corresponding subfolder of /data/DAZ 3D/Genesis 2/Male/Morphs/.
Open it in a text editor of your choice.
*If it’s gibberish, add .zip to the end of the filename, and unzip it.
Find Female.
Replace all with Male.
Save.

The same process will work, mutatis mutandis, to transfer from G2M to G2F.

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/24093/P390/#484862

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

EClark1894 :
I tried to think how to explain every thing to you where you would understand.
but it would take a book and I'm just not that good at explaining.

But certain things happen that changes every thing .
and it's a majority rule that make s the rules such as topology and how to make characters.

Main events in CGI time line.

: Started going good for PC's around 1995 give or take a few years .Max, Softimage, LW.
Buy trail and error the users made all the original rules.
Each app had it's own set of rules.
There was a lot of This vs That App.
Some where along the line we got Maya n C4D years latter.

: Softimage ,LW SubDed tri's to smaller Tri's but Max ,Maya,C4D did not.
So The 100% quad rule was placed in effect. buy all the users.
:weight maps
: zBrush displacement maps.
Changed everything 2001.
: retopologize. Changed a lot.

2014 most have multiple app's and there's a lot less This vs That App.

The hardest thing to model in CGI is a good character and a pretty girl is about imposable.

1998 maybe 5 could model Posetta.
2014 Maybe 50 could model Roxie.

Traditional Artists can name the 600 muscles and the 300 bone etc etc in humans.
But we can cheat with scans now ,so. that changes the rules again.

The point I'm trying to make is rules change depending on Tech.
& wich tech you use .

DAZ uses unimeshes tech cause that's what works for them and there software and morphs.
for a all in one all purpose character.
It's one way to solve the problem of I need a lot of character fast n cheep.
as far as I know DAZ and MakeHuman are the only ones that use a unimesh.
HiveWire3D might half to wait n see.

There's different rule to different app's & Artist.
& like the saying goes rules are made to be broken.
Dawn's modeled with some Tri's and a 30,000 polycount.
So you can SubD Dawn in Studio & Pro 14.
but if you have a older Poser that does not SubD ,Dawn still works.
So Dawns made for all the Posers n Studio's.

It's there solutions to there problems and that's fine. there problem ,there solution.
Poser makes different meshes .Roxie's own mesh & Rex's own mesh and that's fine also.

Some problems have multiple solutions.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Why the need to constantly praise Genesis 2 and it's morphs, I'm not sure who you're trying to convice. Yes you like V6, you've said it many times and quite loudly.

The underlining mesh is still only an adapted V4 lod as was Genesis 1, so it's bassed on a pretty old figure

@WandW: Thanks !

@adzan: Call it informercials or PSA's. :-)

The moment a user asks about Genesis, there's usualy several posts of Poser purists discouraging him/her: "Too hard to use, not made for Poser, why bother ?, doesn't really work anyway, why not use Roxy ? Or Dawn. Wonderful figures !"

And none of that advise is based on any facts, but simply an ongoing anger directed towards DAZ.

I said it many times: I'm not "PRO" DAZ. I'm pro good Poser figure technology. Someone create a figure with better topology and better rigging than Genesis-2, and I'll happily delete it from my runtime and never use it again.

And then I'll start pestering everyone about "Figure-X" instead: "Everybody use Figure-X now, so much better than lame Genesis-2. Still using Genesis-2 ? Gee, what are you thinking ? That's old tech !"

:-)

Poser is a hobbyist tool. Not everyone can be a "figure expert". Not everyone "should" be a figure expert.

But those who aren't, shouldn't they be able to trust the more experienced users to tell them the truth when they ask for help ? Doesn't every user deserve to get all the information that is available ? Beyond any personal agenda ?

So far noone was able to disproof any claim I made. Noone could show Roxy or Dawn easily morphing into a gazillion realistic shapes. Or be as limber as Genesis out of the box. Or as anatomical correct.

Noone.

Just a vague: "Who needs this or that feature anyway, Roxy and Dawn are fine !".

I'm sorry, but I never was a member of the "I don't care" club.

Whatever I do, I want to get to the bottom of it and do it right. And sooner or later, you discover that everything is based on rules. Some can be ignored, some should be ignored, but some should better be adhered to.

If you are a professional and you build a realistic model of a human being that thousends of people are going to use, there is no excuse for bad topology.

Doesn't matter if they are mere hobbyist users, doesn't matter what they use those figures for, a children story or hardcore porn.

They deserve the best figures current technology can create.

Those who find that kind of honesty and incorruptibility annoying or not constructive are free to put me on "ignore". That's what that shiny new button under every post is there for, after all.

;-)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2874173

BTW, about the 4th Gen LOD meshes:

I haven't actually checked so I don't know how much of V4 LOD is in Genesis.

But if one is derived from the other, so what ? Older users might remember that I disliked V4 (And M4 and K4) just as much as I dislike Dawn and Roxy now.

Because I think that compared to the 3rd gen DAZ meshes, the 4th gen ones stayed way below their potential. I especially disliked V4's magnet infested rigging which still made her bend not really much better than the previous figures. Besides, the 4th Gen figures were the first to be rigged in Studio and had "Studio only" features and reduced Poser functionality. (All the scaling was messed up !)

But the mesh itself was the "best" (Or at least not worst) part of the whole 4th Gen mess, and in hindsight V4, M4 and K4 were "interim" figures that filled the gap until Genesis tech could be rolled out.

And after 8 years, nostalgia sets in so I'll look at V4 and M4 and K4 with a kinder eye.

:-)

ANYWAY......

The 4th Gen LOD mesh isn't actually that bad.

I weightmapped both M4 LOD and V4 LOD for Poser, and combined with Poser's SubD tech they make nice meshes.

If you want to have a look, I put M4 LOD up for download some time ago. (See Link)

If you have PP-2014 or D3D's Morphingclothes, you can transfer all M4 morphs as well as Hiro 4 or Freak 4 over to M4 LOD.

Bends just as well as Genesis, but is 100% pure Poser.

And here some impressions of V4 LOD weightmapped for Poser:

Roxie's mesh isn't that bad. It's no Genesis, but with some refining, and not even all that much, it could get close.

Left is default Roxi in her default pose with her arms down. Right is my rework WIP after a couple hours of adjusting posture, scaling and proportion, adding a couple of magnets, and doing some light brush work in ZB. Still has a ways to go, but I think this is a decent start, and an example of Roxi's potential.

Her mesh does need refining. There's wasted geometry in some places, and not enough in others. It's difficult to give her much muscle tone because the geometry isn't there to support it. Using SubD doesn't make much difference in that regard either.

I think her mesh is a bit too low resolution, but until I actually look at everywhere that can have geometry removed and then added to other areas, I won't know for sure.

I'm thinking about reworking her geometry and re-rigging her after I get her shape finalized.

~Shane

What a difference:) You did a good job on that.

My Renderosity Store

I usually don't read threads like this because I am a dealer of cloth, not figures. Figures are just unimportant cloth hangers to me. But I went to the end of this thread and read a few posts and have a question to the OP.

If you are such an expert in figures why don't you "Dawnify" your figures then, your own or a modification. Is it impossible to add triax technology such as Dawn has done? The main reason we who use Dawn do it because she is compatible with both Daz and Poser. What we make for one platform is transferable to the other platform and vice verca, morphs and all. That is important not only because your content will be available for both platforms (but that too of course) - but even if you a only create for one platform it is still so incredible useful to be able to tap into the recourses of the other, during the "manufacturing".

Thts is the reason Vicky is not so smart.

JoePublic : Just so you know if I ever make DAZ Poser characters.
YOU will be DRAFTED to RIG them. !!!
Poser alt to hire you for Rigs.

I like Genesis 2, Dawn, Roxie equally. I like my meshes best thou ;)

Anyways
V6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
M6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Stephanie anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Olympia anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Not in every ones budget.

AmbientShade : Nice morph ,Might want to have some fun with displacement maps & normal maps.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

RorrKon those bundles were on special so many times and you could even pick them up for more than half that price. Eg my V6 Pro bundle is listed as $69.97 because I am a pc member. Can probably get it much cheaper if I add a coupon from the store. All depends how you shop.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - JoePublic : Just so you know if I ever make DAZ Poser characters.
YOU will be DRAFTED to RIG them. !!!
Poser alt to hire you for Rigs.

Well, from what I understand, there's some kind of offer on the plate, but Joe won't give an answer.

Quote - Roxie's mesh isn't that bad. It's no Genesis, but with some refining, and not even all that much, it could get close.

Left is default Roxi in her default pose with her arms down. Right is my rework WIP after a couple hours of adjusting posture, scaling and proportion, adding a couple of magnets, and doing some light brush work in ZB. Still has a ways to go, but I think this is a decent start, and an example of Roxi's potential.

Her mesh does need refining. There's wasted geometry in some places, and not enough in others. It's difficult to give her much muscle tone because the geometry isn't there to support it. Using SubD doesn't make much difference in that regard either.

I think her mesh is a bit too low resolution, but until I actually look at everywhere that can have geometry removed and then added to other areas, I won't know for sure.

I'm thinking about reworking her geometry and re-rigging her after I get her shape finalized.

~Shane

I just finished watching Johnathan Williamson build a female torso in Blender and after hearing his explanations for why he does what he does, I actually think I agree with and understand your points. And you did a damn fine job of improving her. This is why I like this forum. You can learn so much.

Thanks Zev0.

RorrKon: - I prefer to use displacement maps for fine details and to enhance what's already there. They shouldn't be a replacement for geometry because displacement maps are static and can't be deformed with a rig the way actual geometry can.

EClark: Thanks. Glad you like the result - and that you're learning. I've watched Johnathan Williamson's videos before too, and while they're good learning tools, he doesn't put a lot of detail in his mesh, probably because the meshes he builds aren't intended to be morphed a whole lot. Which is fine. If you don't need the detail then there's no reason to build it, just to smooth it out. But Poser figures require more attention to detail because of all the different shaping morphs they are expected to have, so they are a bit different breed of mesh than the average game or film mesh requires. And really, it just comes down to experience. The more time you spend experimenting with figure meshes and shapes, the more you learn what works and what doesn't work.

There is no single right way to build a mesh because every mesh requires its own topology based on its shape and what that mesh is expected to do. Beyond that, it's just a matter of not breaking certain rules of topology, in order to avoid problems later, or in other areas. That's why I equate topology to being a puzzle that you have to figure out as you go along.

~Shane

Thanks Shane. Yeah, I did see that Johnathan did leave a lot of detail out, but he did say that he would put more in if he needed to for changes and such.

Are you thinking of releasing that as a morph for Roxie? I'd like to get it just so I can study what you did.

Possibly. I haven't finished it yet, and there's a lot of adjustments to the rig that I'll have to do first. Mostly I was just playing around to test just how much Roxi's mesh can do. Her face needs more work, and her fingernails are atrotious. I reworked one, but decided to skip it til after I have everything else reshaped. Same with feet and toes.

~Shane

Yeah, I morphed her feet myself a little so she could wear some proper heels. and I also wanted to shape her calves more. Poser women's calves stay the same even in heels, but in real women the calves get more distinctive and shapely when they wear heels. It happens in men too, but we don't wear heels much. But when we jumped or stand on our toes those muscles puff up.

Quote - RorrKon: - I prefer to use displacement maps for fine details and to enhance what's already there. They shouldn't be a replacement for geometry because displacement maps are static and can't be deformed with a rig the way actual geometry can.

~Shane

I was thinking with displacement map you could detail muscles tendons etc etc as detailed as any mesh.
normal map ,same as displacement map just lower polycount.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - I was thinking with displacement map you could detail muscles tendons etc etc as detailed as any mesh.
normal map ,same as displacement map just lower polycount.

Yes, that's true. But tendons flex and distort when a body moves, causing shadows and contours that aren't present in a relaxed state. Displacement maps don't represent this change due to their "always on" static state. So I use them to represent skin pores and wrinkles and things like that, that don't change a whole lot when the muscle beneath the skin changes. Geometry takes up less resources than maps these days, so its actually better to have a higher res mesh and use maps to enhance the geometry, instead of being a substitute for it. But for game characters, and models that require a lower poly count, displacement is a perfectly valid alternative.

~Shane

Quote - Displacement maps don't represent this change due to their "always on" static state

They're only static if you make them so. You can make the displacement amount modulated by joint position. Or even by the phase of the moon - you know, for those werewolf tendons.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - > Quote - Displacement maps don't represent this change due to their "always on" static state

They're only static if you make them so. You can make the displacement amount modulated by joint position. Or even by the phase of the moon - you know, for those werewolf tendons.

Interesting idea. But how complicated would that be to set up in Poser, for every joint rotation, and every combination of joint rotations, for each joint?

Because an arm flexing is a different kind of flexing when it's up in the air above your head, than when it is down at your side, and different still when you're bent over, due to tension placed on it from the other muscles in the body.

And then there's the issue of pokethru in clothing, since clothing would have a different set of maps and doesn't respond to the displacement that exists on the model its conformed to.

~Shane

That approach might be more use for finer detail like skin folds rather than large scale muscle movements. In his book Stop Staring Jason Ospira demonstrated using a displacement map hooked up in Maya to control brow wrinkles for frown expressions. So I'm thinking of areas that need fine dynamic detail like hands, faces etc where that level of detail would be harder to model in and deal with in rigging. Don't know if that would be a practical approach though - could a displacement map be applied as a kind of decal, like applying a tattoo to a figure?

----------------------------------------

Not approved by Scarfolk Council. For more information please reread. Or visit my local shop.

This thread makes me want to finally take a shot at playing with Genesis2 in Poser. I have to confess I know nothing about DAZ studio and I'm really lost with all the requirements to get Genesis into Poser.

Can anyone point the way to a decent Idiots step-by-step Guide to Genesis/Poser?

Thank you.

I don't know if it's for Idiots, but here's the official guide...

http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dson_importer/poser/userguide/dson_installation_requirements/tutorials/dson_installation/start

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

RorrKon

is like Zev0 says, you can spend 800/1000 dollars and have a pair of male and female figures (super hd of course ) with clothes and some scenarios (until daz not have competition and you start charging to use it again - microdaz-) and use the figures of G2 for a year or a half year until it comes "G3" with double sweetness and half the calories

well as say , ( which not a poser user but is always busy looking at this forum and misinforming with their sophisms) you can sell a kidney (do not worry you have 2) and you will come out a lot cheaper

Quote - RorrKon

is like Zev0 says, you can spend 800/1000 dollars and have a pair of male and female figures (super hd of course ) with clothes and some scenarios (until daz not have competition and you start charging to use it again - microdaz-) and use the figures of G2 for a year or a half year until it comes "G3" with double sweetness and half the calories

well as say , ( which not a poser user but is always busy looking at this forum and misinforming with their sophisms) you can sell a kidney (do not worry you have 2) and you will come out a lot cheaper

Kidneys ,LOL between LW,C4D,zBrush,Poser,DAZ Studio. plugs & content I have no internal organs left.
& maybe 1/2 pint of blood.

Now I need http://www.allegorithmic.com/ & http://quixel.se/

Anyone want to buy a wife ? she's a good cook . ;)

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

While working on Roxie, I thought this would make a good example of topology and edgeflow and how just modifying existing topology without even increasing or decreasing, can make a big difference.

It also goes back to JoePublic's original post and might even serve as more evidence for those who don't think Joe's example applies to human shapes.

First image, on the left is Roxie's default butt. Notice how most of the geometry runs in straight rows.

On the right is Roxie's modified butt. No geometry was added or removed.

~Shane

By simply spinning two edges, one on each side (the edges highlighted in blue here) it completely alters the flow of the geometry, allowing for much more form to be pulled out of the mesh.

~Shane

Now the sacrum can be defined, and the glutes hold much more roundness. All by spinning two little edges and adjusting the points. Litterally less than a minute's worth of work.

Roxie's mesh is 26,082 polys total.

G2F's mesh is 21,098 polys total.

Yet, Roxie is not capable of acheiving the same level of deformation in her default state due to the improper edgeflow of her mesh. This is just one small example of many, many other areas.

Hopefully this will help some people understand the importance of topology a little better.

So far I've reduced her mesh by over 1,000 polys, most of which came from her fingers and toes. That's 1,000 polys I can spend in other areas and still have many left over.

~Shane

What do you mean, "reduced"? I know you can't delete any verts.

Quote -What do you mean, "reduced"? I know you can't delete any verts.

Correct. In order to retain morph information the geometry can't be altered in any way, it can only be stretched and shrunk.

Just by spinning those two edges, it breaks all morph information in the original figure. But the original figure is useless to me as-is, so if she's going to take up my runtime space, she's going to be optimized and look good.

I've reduced her geometry by removing unnecessary polys. Morphs will not work until I transfer them back or build new ones. Her rig will work because I can transfer it from her original rig with my modifications. Her mapping will retain the same shape and islands, only the modified topology will lay a bit differently. I can do that in blender.

~Shane

Hmm, so you're saying that if I delete a vert in her ear, for example I could put it back in a tail and the morph would still work?

No. Once you change any verts, all morphs in the entire figure are broken. Putting it back doesn't help. At least I don't think it does, since it would have a different number and still change the vertex order.

You would need a script like PML or something similar.

And, any modifications like that would be for personal use, you couldn't redistribute it without permission from SM, or without RTEncoder - which for me personally, I've never been able to get it to function. It crashed my PC when I tried using JoePublic's David3, for example. And I haven't bothered trying to figure out what the problem was.

Sometimes, even RTEncoder isn't enough or allowed though. For example, HW3D doesn't allow it for Dawn. *Unless they've changed that rule recently. So you still have to get permission first.

~Shane

Oh okay, I thought you were making a morph for Roxie.

Great job there, Shane ! That's quite an effective demonstration how important every single edge and vertice is.

But if you're hellbent on reworking one of the Poser girls, wouldn't it be more effective by starting with the original ?

Seriously, I'd hate to see your talent and knowledge and time squandered on a mesh that has been mangled and messed up in the past as much as Roxie has.

Much better to start with a clean canvas.

Pic shows MIKI-1's edgeflow. A long, long time ago I manually "de-subdivided" her head (actually did that again when MIKI-2 was released) in an attempt to create a "low res" Miki. Then I ran the body through an auto-reducer. It created a very messy all-tri mesh, but actually worked in Poser. Lol.

I think that got her down to 17.000 polygons. My point is, even with just her head and especially her teeth, inner mouth, etc reduced plus her original body, MIKI is in the 40.000 poly range. Looks like her body is also more or less just a frozen SubD 1 mesh, so a completely "de-subdivided" MIKI mesh would make a really nice start for an up-to-date Poser figure.

With some of your "re-topology" magic added ?

At least MIKI-1 has a photorealistic default bodyshape, some nice textures and some great clothing to start with. Plus a great head sculpt with excellent expression morphs.

MIKI-2 would be practically the same. Identical mesh, slightly improved UV maps. She just had a "waist" and two "buttock" groups added.

The reference used for MIKI.

MIKI vs an early version of "Aneta". Same reference used, but based on the 3rd Gen DAZ mesh.

"No. Once you change any verts, all morphs in the entire figure are broken. Putting it back doesn't help. At least I don't think it does, since it would have a different number and still change the vertex order.

You would need a script like PML or something similar.
And, any modifications like that would be for personal use, you couldn't redistribute it without permission from SM, or without RTEncoder - which for me personally, I've never been able to get it to function. It crashed my PC when I tried using JoePublic's David3, for example. And I haven't bothered trying to figure out what the problem was.

Sometimes, even RTEncoder isn't enough or allowed though. For example, HW3D doesn't allow it for Dawn. *Unless they've changed that rule recently. So you still have to get permission first."

Yep.

Everything he said.

That's why I get angry and frustrated when people say I simply should give Roxie or Dawn "more time".

Once the topology is messed up, you cannot repair it WITHOUT breaking every single body morph, the weightmapping and every JCM there is.

A private third party can't "fix" such a figure, because RTE encoding is a mess and people hate it. And some companies like Hivewire don't even allow it to be used at all.

Making a nicer face morph or making a better texture or injecting a joint "fix" morph are something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from improving a figure's topology.

It's basically a completely new figure you create, even if the shape is still the same.

So, that's why for me a figure that hasn't anatomical correct topology right from the start is absolute, 100% useless to me and I won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

If the topology is bad, its game over before the race has even started.

That being said, PoseMorphLoader, D3D's Morphing Clothes as well as PP-2014 allow you to "re-project" morphs back into a modified mesh.

But the transfer isn't 100%, especially when the topology was changed, there are rounding errors, so the morphs are softer, less detailed. Sometimes the projection misses vertices so they stay "glued" to their original position while the rest is morphed.

But even if you manage to get the morphs back into the modified mesh, you're facing the encoding problem.

It's "OK" for a freebie, even though many people still don't want to mess with it, but it is an absolute no-no for any commercial project.

Quote -
Oh okay, I thought you were making a morph for Roxie.

Yes, that is what I'm doing. I can convert the Roxie morph I've been working on so far, to an injectable FBM.

That's separate from the reworking of her mesh tho.

The reworking of her mesh serves a somewhat different project, inspired by the morph that I started for her the other day.

Thanks for the compliments Joe.

Unfortunately I don't have access to Miki 1. I don't think she's even still available. I have Miki2 and Miki4. I might have Miki3 somewhere, but I haven't found her yet.

however, even if I did have Miki1, I'd probably still prefer to work with Roxie's mesh because it's a whole lot easier to rework 20K polys than it is to rework 40K polys.

Is Miki1 and Miki2 the same mesh? I've heard some people say that it is and others say that it isn't.

I can transfer Miki's shape to Roxie's reworked mesh with ZBrush. For that matter I can transfer any of the figure shapes to Roxie's reworked mesh in ZBrush.

I can also remap her to Miki 2's maps, if I decide they're better maps than Roxie has (I haven't looked at them in a long time so I'm not sure).

Or, I can transfer Miki's skin texture to Roxie's maps in zbrush.

The only real reason I chose Roxie is because her mesh is very simple compaired to all the other meshes. It's poluted with unnecessary geometry, but that's easy to clean out, especially on a low res mesh. And I can use Miki2's topology as a reference if I need to, but I do have my own methods of constructing certain features. After working with topology as long as I have, it gets easier to look at a mesh and see what it would look like at a lower resolution, at least in areas. Of course some areas are much more confusing than others.

~Shane

As far as I can remember, MIKI 1 and 2 are exactly the same figures, except for the grouping and some improved rigging (MIKI-2 had Joint-Smoothing-Magnets before V4 was released),

So MIKI-1 clothes can be easily converted by just adding MIKI-2's grouping.

Yeah, I understand your reasoning.

Although...If you plan on doing such a thorough conversion, why not start with the low res figures that come with PP-2012 and PP-2014 ?

Picture shows a crude attempt to make the PoserPro-low res girl a little more humanoid.

Lol.

You'd have to re-check yourself, but AFAIK these are "public domain", so everything you do with them is yours to keep. So no encoding necessary if you redistribute them.

And the low res female is just 8600 polys, so that's plenty of room to build your own topology.

Anyway, good luck !

:-)

Hmm. Where do you find those figures?

All I see is the Project Human figures, and the Poser Pro Tutorial figures.

Not sure what the poly count is on the Project Humans but the tutorial female is over 31K, higher than Roxie, but has very similar mapping and topology, almost makes me wonder if they might be the same mesh. Are they also open source?

Then there's the Poser 4 lo res figures but I doubt that's what you meant.

~Shane

Found them. They're in the 2012 library, not the 2014. Only the med-res tutorial figures are in the 2014 library.

Interesting.

~Shane

Poser pro 2014 Content -> Figures -> Poser Pro 2014 Content -> Poser Pro -> Female

Poser pro 2014 Content -> Figures -> Poser Pro 2014 Content -> Poser Pro -> Male

From the EULA:

“Unrestricted Content” means Content included with or part of the Program that is specifically identified in the Documentation or listed in this EULA as Unrestricted Content. The following figure geometries and their associated textures are Unrestricted Content: low res male, low res female, medium res male, medium res female.

a. To reproduce, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, publicly display, and publicly perform the Unrestricted Content for any lawful purpose other than to create a product which is intended to compete with the Program or to create new content which is intended to compete with the Restricted Content.

Thanks.

Quote - a. To reproduce, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, publicly display, and publicly perform the Unrestricted Content for any lawful purpose other than to create a product which is intended to compete with the Program or to create new content which is intended to compete with the Restricted Content.

Hmm. Ok so based on that wording, wouldn't any figures created from the low res open source figures be considered competition with the Restricted Content figures included in the program? That's what it sounds like to me.

~Shane

**Hey! Hey! Hey!**

*It is absolutely and utterly forbidden to touch the Poser Pro Lo Res Figures inside or outside of Poser or any other app!

=> They are "mine" and "mine" only. LOL. <==*

V4 will shoot you down !
Roxie will knife you !
Dawn will hang you afterwards !

Ha, I posted a lot about them as they are soooo easy to work on and with.

(Click to enlarge)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Just fooling around. (Click, to enlarge "all" of their 8.000 polygons)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Wireframe view.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Remember this one, from an initial Firring room test I posted long time ago??

Here you have 3 layers of clothing; Jacket over pullover over pants over figure.
All fitted in a single fitting session to test 3 layers of clothing in a single operation..

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

( Click to enlarge) This one was a test of the Poser build-in post work script.

Scripts=> Partners => Schaderworks => Postwork Manager.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Now? ?

It is up to you guys to "guess" what figure I used here.

The P4 Lo Res Figure

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

You know?

V-768 bis - SR 9.875

Dawn 724 - SR8

Miss Gene 78 upgrade block 62

=> they are all crying rivers.

Sea levels are rising because of : The Poser Pro Lo Res Figure !

LOL.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

lol, why is that, Vilters?

you're the only one who uses her.

~Shane

Anoter fitting room test. (Click)

Ha-ha-ha-, correct, SM provided me with my "personal" figures,
Sooo nice of them. LOL.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I believe Phil Cooke's figures are based on the Poser Pro Redistributable figures...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

And, andother fitting room test. (Click) Icequeens.

(This is a very old one)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

PS; For the Poser Pro Lo Res figures?

The morphs all started out in Hexagon some years ago.
Then I got into Blender.

The current versions have only 3 material zones.

The lashes => they need GC at 1, and a separate map.
The cornea => For obvious transp. and reflection reasons => No map on them at all.
The body, including eveything else.

Some versions have a slightly adapted UV lay-out.
All of the above also use the same texture. The color differences are done in the material room.

Does it spell like a KISS?
These are so easy to morph and to work with, that I rarely use something else.

Yes, yes, I also like Roxie, and modified her also into a KISS figure : Rox.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

By looking at Roxie's face , I wonder, if she has been modeled by using the Poser Pro Redistributable figures as wall. Their faces look kind of similar to me.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2607039&ebot_calc_page#message_2607039

Got that T shirt.

Miki 1 was unwelded and could not be subD in ZB2. Miki 2 was welded except for her neck seam. I think this is how they skipped losing her great head morphs.. I'm guessing as I can barely even remember this now. It was a lot of fun. I see vilters was there...

I'm beginning to think vilters is addicted to low-poly and must be somewhat of an expert on them. Just checked his Homepage and not only does the guy have five monitors, that's five of the things, he's even working on a low-poly figure on-screen in the Homepage photo :-P

Interesting read, I didn't even know redistributable figures were included in Poser!

Quote - By looking at Roxie's face , I wonder, if she has been modeled by using the Poser Pro Redistributable figures as wall. Their faces look kind of similar to me.

The base topology and the UV mapping tells me they are based on the same mesh. Then send it to zbrush and hide the head. Look at the inner mouth teeth and gums. These are the same models.

It's not difficult to rebuild topology in various areas and keep the same UV mapping. You can freeze borders in Blender's UV mapping by pinning all the edges and relax the rest of the mesh, making adjustments as necessary. I'm sure other UV mapping tools can do the same thng.

There's nothing wrong with using extremely low poly meshes, under 10k. Except that you're not going to get the same level of anatomical detail as you would with a higher res mesh, at least not everywhere. It becomes much more apparent when the figure is posed. Basic walking and standing poses won't show what it's missing too much. But stretch her out across a stool with her back arched and her arms splayed out or have her doing yoga-type poses and the lack of detail becomes immediately obvious. Plus the face.

But if you want to build lo-res game meshes, circa 2000-2004, which is exactly what the figures here look like, then it's a decent mesh to start with.

~Shane

Disturbed Asylum

I know it's twisted .
but with all there topology concerns .
I swear it would hilarious to watch AmbientShade & JoePublic make a game mesh.
I know ,I know ,I belong in a asylum & need serious mental help. :lol::laugh::scared:

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Wonder what SM would say if some redesigned Roxie's mesh as Shane did, then sent it to them? Would they toss it or issue a Roxie Update? "Course, it would break all the morphs for her, but then, there aren't that many around anyway.

Quote - Wonder what SM would say if some redesigned Roxie's mesh as Shane did, then sent it to them? Would they toss it or issue a Roxie Update? "Course, it would break all the morphs for her, but then, there aren't that many around anyway.

I doubt it would be in the form of an update. Most likely it'd be its own figure, since everything would need to change.

~Shane

Quote - > Quote - Wonder what SM would say if some redesigned Roxie's mesh as Shane did, then sent it to them? Would they toss it or issue a Roxie Update? "Course, it would break all the morphs for her, but then, there aren't that many around anyway.

I doubt it would be in the form of an update. Most likely it'd be its own figure, since everything would need to change.

~Shane

Couldn't they just give it the same rig? It's the same mesh.

No. The mesh is only part of it. The proportions are different and she's taller than default Roxie.

This is why I was pissed when Rex and Roxie (and thus their clothing) released with no animated joint centers. But Teyon explained to me why that was the case, I just don't remember what the explanation was.

I still have to figure out how to inject AJCs and WMs.

But, if you mean the mesh being altered, and her keeping her default shape then yes, the same rig could be used. But every morph would still need to be rebuilt.

But if I were to do it then the entire figure would be redesigned, and current default roxie could be an injection pose, for those who like her.

~Shane

That's why I said I like this forum. I always learn something. I thought Roxy and Rex had animated joint centers as well. Let me know if you ever remember why they don't, please. Although, I'm willing to bet that either the rigging was done before the AJCs were ready or they were too close to release time.

Animated joint centers are pretty easy to implement.

In Studio. Lol.

You load a TriAx rigged figure. Load a new full body morph you made. Click a button and the joint centers auto-snap to their new centers to match the shape and proportions of the morph you added.

In Poser, well...ColorCurvator made a script to add Kids4 as an FBM to M4. This script uses animated joint centers to work, and also works with other figures.

But the figure you "add" has to be already rigged with the joint centers in their correct (new) places.

If you need animated join centers for a custom morph fresh out of ZB that has shorter or longer arms or legs or a shorter or longer torso or wider shoulders etc, then every single joint center will need to be adjusted using its y-,x,- and z-offset dials and these adjustments need to be individually ERC linked with the dependency editor to the new body morph.

Very, very tedious, especially for the hands. Oh, wait, native Poser figures also have a gazillion bones in their toes, making the procedure just as tedious for the legs.

If SM wants their figures to be popular, they need to add such an "auto-snap" tool. People can make five completely new and original morphs for Genesis a day, because it takes only 10 minutes to properly rig them.

In Poser, just properly making an arm longer can easily take half a day or more.

That's why I usually use scaling for shorter/longer arms even though animated joint centers would be the more "cleaner" solution.

:-P

Improving joint movement with animated joint centers works the same. You set a new center point for the end rotation of the limb with the offset dials and then link that adjustement to the joint rotation dial of the limb you edited.

Quote - Now? ?

It is up to you guys to "guess" what figure I used here.

The P4 Lo Res Figure

Wow. That's actually some lovely work. I'm impressed. :)

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Thanks Moriador.
I only use Poser and Blender.

**And?
Here 10 Tips & Tricks to make life easy.
**
1: Know before you morph that the exact placement of each vertex is as critical as the next one.
You have very few vertex to work with, an each one is critical and has to be "on the spot".

2: A Smoothed mesh expands.

A SubD mesh shrinks.
Always render with Posers Smoothing ENABLED and crease angle for all groups of the figure set at 180° (The free sxenefixer script can do that for you.
For Poser10 and PP2014 users , set SubD level 1.
Rendering with Smoothing and SubD both enabled will make the mesh maintain its size.
No expanding, no shrinking any more.
Optional but very helpfull : Have 2 monitors. Poser on one and Blender on the second.
Morph in Blender while x-checking the vertex position in Poser.
KNOW and X-Check in Poser, while morphing in Blender, what each vertex will do during a bend or twist and anticipate its position in the future.
I do not sculpt. A sculpter moves vertex in and out.
I morph = I move the vertex in all X, Y, and Z. That is the advantage of Lo Res Figures => There is room to move the vertex around.
Anticipate texture shrinking and stretching.

Happy Posering all
Tony

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

> Quote - Animated joint centers are pretty easy to implement. In Studio. Lol. > > You load a TriAx rigged figure. Load a new full body morph you made. Click a button and the joint centers auto-snap to their new centers to match the shape and proportions of the morph you added.

I remember seeing the animated joint centers at work in early Genesis promo videos and being super excited when I was given access to the developement tools before their official commercial release when I was brought into the Daz PA fold. I've enjoyed making bizarre genesis shapes ever since.

@Daz3d
@ShareCG

Quote -In Poser, well...ColorCurvator made a script to add Kids4 as an FBM to M4. This script uses animated joint centers to work, and also works with other figures.

I was not aware that it worked for other figures. Are you sure about this? Because the product description doesn't mention it, it only mentions M4 and K4 as being required. I don't own K4 so I've never thought of testing it.

Quote - I do not sculpt. A sculpter moves vertex in and out.

I don't know about blender, but in ZB every vertex is moved on all 3 axis, a single one or an entire cluster.

~Shane

Quote - I was not aware that it worked for other figures. Are you sure about this? Because the product description doesn't mention it, it only mentions M4 and K4 as being required. I don't own K4 so I've never thought of testing it.[/quote] Yes, it does work... if you understand how to apply it.

It works on V3/D3 with Matt and Maddie. You have to load a copy of Matt or Maddie and rename it to "The Kids 4". It works with this group of figures because they all share a common mesh. I've made agable figures from D3 and V3 and am very impressed with them. The clothing scripts work fine as well.

Quote - Anyways
V6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
M6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Stephanie anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Olympia anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Not in every ones budget.

Can some one explain why there is a pro bundle for each of these characters. I thought that one of the main advantages of Genesis was the ability to use the same morphs and clothes on any variation of the figure. Scale and morph Olympia to a child and use the same clothing and hair. I would need a different set of clothes for each female?

________________________________

My DeviantArt Gallery

My Website

Quote - > Quote - Anyways

V6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
M6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Stephanie anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Olympia anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Not in every ones budget.

Can some one explain why there is a pro bundle for each of these characters. I thought that one of the main advantages of Genesis was the ability to use the same morphs and clothes on any variation of the figure. Scale and morph Olympia to a child and use the same clothing and hair. I would need a different set of clothes for each female?

Different bundles have different sets of clothing and figures created for it by PAs, like always.... unless you think beard textures are ok for the ladies, dresses and panties for the men and a penis for the girl teen bundle. ;) They share the same base morphs that work with each character shape.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Anyways

V6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
M6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Stephanie anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Olympia anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Not in every ones budget.

Can some one explain why there is a pro bundle for each of these characters. I thought that one of the main advantages of Genesis was the ability to use the same morphs and clothes on any variation of the figure. Scale and morph Olympia to a child and use the same clothing and hair. I would need a different set of clothes for each female?

Different bundles have different sets of clothing and figures created for it by PAs, like always.... unless you think beard textures are ok for the ladies, dresses and panties for the men and a penis for the girl teen bundle. ;) They share the same base morphs that work with each character shape.

Actually I've seen renders with some of the combinations you've described (not that there's anything wrong with that). I've hesitated diving into the Genesis world and just wanted to know, can't I buy the Vicky bundle and just the Olympia morph, then share their clothes and hair without going through some kind of conversion process? You're answer wasn't totally clear to me.

________________________________

My DeviantArt Gallery

My Website

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Anyways

V6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
M6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Stephanie anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Olympia anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Not in every ones budget.

Can some one explain why there is a pro bundle for each of these characters. I thought that one of the main advantages of Genesis was the ability to use the same morphs and clothes on any variation of the figure. Scale and morph Olympia to a child and use the same clothing and hair. I would need a different set of clothes for each female?

Different bundles have different sets of clothing and figures created for it by PAs, like always.... unless you think beard textures are ok for the ladies, dresses and panties for the men and a penis for the girl teen bundle. ;) They share the same base morphs that work with each character shape.

Actually I've seen renders with some of the combinations you've described (not that there's anything wrong with that). I've hesitated diving into the Genesis world and just wanted to know, can't I buy the Vicky bundle and just the Olympia morph, then share their clothes and hair without going through some kind of conversion process? You're answer wasn't totally clear to me.

You can buy either a bundle or an individual character, just like you could with V4. Some things may not be available outside the pro bundle, like the gens. You simply asked why did those bundles exist.

All G2M clothing fits to any GSM "character".

All G2F clothing fits to any G2F "character".

So stuff from the Vicky 6 Bundle fits to Stephanie 6, fits to Olympia 6, fits to Teen Josie 6.

So if you like the clothing of the Vicky 6 Bundle better but still want to use the Olympia morph, no problem.

Quote - > Quote - Anyways

V6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
M6 anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Stephanie anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Olympia anatomically correct pro bundle morph $124.95
Not in every ones budget.

Can some one explain why there is a pro bundle for each of these characters. I thought that one of the main advantages of Genesis was the ability to use the same morphs and clothes on any variation of the figure. Scale and morph Olympia to a child and use the same clothing and hair. I would need a different set of clothes for each female?

My comment was referring to.
The only way to get V6,M6,Stephanie,Olympia genitalia is to buy the pro packs.

to anyone that knows.
If you buy V6 $125.00 Pro Pack but only get Olympai $40.00 morph.
will the morph work at all ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - to anyone that knows.
If you buy V6 $125.00 Pro Pack but only get Olympai $40.00 morph.
will the morph work at all ?

The Olympia morph will work with just the free G2F figure. You do not need V6 at all unless you like the shape or the other stuff in the pack.

TD

All I have is V5,M5,V6 $40.00 morphs with out genitalia.

let me ask this way.

V6,M6,Stephanie,Olympia are all morphs you can mix to make diffrent characters.
if you added genitalia .that would change the polycount .
It would not make since to have 2 diffrent V6's.
1 V6's with genitalia & 1 V6 with out genitalia.
& each have there own set of morphs.

So how does DAZ Deal with genitalia & morphs ?

Can you mix V6's with genitalia morph along with Olympia with out genitalia morph ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - So how does DAZ Deal with genitalia & morphs ?

The genitals for Genesis, G2F and G2M are geografts. That means the models replace part of the hip polygons when loaded. Otherwise the model will behave like any conforming figure and follow the morphs dialed on the Genesis(2) figure as fas as possible. For extreme morphs it is best to add shape specfic morphs to the genital figure to optimize them for the shape. Just like some clothes have specific genesis morphs built-in to optimize fit for some shapes.

So essentially the genital figurtes act like conforming figures, but replace part of the figure mesh (they can even have their own rigging).

TD

Quote - All G2M clothing fits to any GSM "character". All G2F clothing fits to any G2F "character".

What do Simon and Sydney have to do with Vicky?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

G2F & G2M: Greatly improved re-imaginations of DAZ' amazing and groundbraking original GENESIS system.

G2-Series: Hastily made reworks of SmithMicro's Poser 6 area figures, loosing basically all of their original realism and charm. (The only figure benefitting from the "G2-Treatment" was Jessi, but for that figure, any type of change would have been an improvement.)

GSM: Typo.

@JoeQuick: Amazing work !

It's such a shame Poser users are deprived of that kind of creativity due to Smith Micro's stubbornness.

I'm not unhappy with my own Poser work, but to think what I could have done in the last two years with a full set of TRI-AX rigging tools in Poser ?

:-(

Quote -
G2F & G2M: Greatly improved re-imaginations of DAZ' amazing and groundbraking original GENESIS system.

If you go to CP and search for 'G2M' and 'G2F' you will find nothing for Genesis....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote - I'm not unhappy with my own Poser work, but to think what I could have done in the last two years with a full set of TRI-AX rigging tools in Poser ?

DAZ' rigging tools have been better than Poser's since they introduced them as an addon to Studio 3. odf used Studio to rig the original Antonia. What's especially galling now is that Studio's are still better, and they are now free... :glare:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote - > Quote - I'm not unhappy with my own Poser work, but to think what I could have done in the last two years with a full set of TRI-AX rigging tools in Poser ?

DAZ' rigging tools have been better than Poser's since they introduced them as an addon to Studio 3. odf used Studio to rig the original Antonia. What's especially galling now is that Studio's are still better, and they are now free... :glare:

Yeah, but the G2 figures don't work in Studio, do they, so how are you going to rig them?

joequick, your render looks great!

Are they all Genesis based?

Wow.

JoePublic, I appreciate your sharing the knowledge of Genesis figures in Poser.

I agree, the Genesis 2 figures are fantastic.

Although I added a few jcms to Genesis 2, you can use them right away almost straight out the box.

That alone is phenomenal!

> Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I'm not unhappy with my own Poser work, but to think what I could have done in the last two years with a full set of TRI-AX rigging tools in Poser ? > > > > DAZ' rigging tools have been better than Poser's since they introduced them as an addon to Studio 3. odf used Studio to rig the original Antonia. What's especially galling now is that Studio's are still better, and they are now free... :glare: > > Yeah, but the G2 figures don't work in Studio, do they, so how are you going to rig them?

G2 figures work fine in Studio; here's Simon...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

... and here he's been converted to a Tri-Ax weight mapped figure and brought back into Poser by way of the DSON Importer...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote - ... and here he's been converted to a Tri-Ax weight mapped figure and brought back into Poser by way of the DSON Importer...

This means that poser can read him as weight map figure without further adjustments?

My FreeStuff

Quote - This means that poser can read him as weight map figure without further adjustments?

Yes, although his rigging is really no different than it was before. To improve his bending would involve editing the weightmaps, which could be done in Poser Pro or in Studio. If it were done in Studio it would then need to be brought back into Poser via DSON, but could then be Poserized using the same methods as in JP's Hacking Vicky threads...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

And which one is better for editing the weightmaps? Poser or DS?

My FreeStuff

Quote - And which one is better for editing the weightmaps? Poser or DS?

I have not yet tried the weight painting tools in Studio. Poser Pro's are easy to use, but one must use Phil Cooke's free Python script to convert an entire figure to weight mapping; Studio has this feature built in. However Poser Pro does allow one to only weightmap the desired joints/bends; fingers usually don't benefit much, for example...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Converting conventional rigging to W-Mapping is a "one click operation" in PP2014.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - Converting conventional rigging to W-Mapping is a "one click operation" in PP2014.

It is now? Cool; I guess I'll need to look that one up...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Yeah, but PP-2014 is $499 while Studio is FREE.

And it has the more sophisticated rigging tools.

So if you only can afford Poser 9 or 10, you can use Studio as a "Rigging mule" to weightmap any figure, then use the DSON importer to bring that figure into Poser.

I mean, if Poser users use Photoshop to edit textures and ZBrush to create new morphs, and MD to create clothing, why not use Studio to rig ?

Besides, unlike Photoshop and ZBrush and MD, Studio is FREE, so all you risk is spending a few hours getting acqainted with its rigging tools.

I think Genesis-2 gives ample proof how well a properly Tri-AX rigged figure can actually bend in Poser.

(Actually, apart from the meshes I rigged myself in PP-2014, I know of no "Poser native" figure that bends as well in Poser as Genesis-2 does.)

And once you've loaded that Tri-Ax rigged figure in Poser via DSON, you can convert it back to a native Poser cr2 with a few simple mouseclicks.

(And unless you dissect the cr2 in a word editor, noone will be able to tell the difference anyway.)

It's a shame the DSON importer didn't work well enough two years ago to make such a workflow possible. In hindsight, it would have been better to have 2 years of Tri-AX rigging experience now than two years of Poser weightmapping experience.

Quote -And once you've loaded that Tri-Ax rigged figure in Poser via DSON, you can convert it back to a native Poser cr2 with a few simple mouseclicks.

(And unless you dissect the cr2 in a word editor, noone will be able to tell the difference anyway.)

Do you have some detailed instructions on this part? I'd like to experiment with it.

~Shane

"It's a shame the DSON importer didn't work well enough two years ago to make such a workflow possible. In hindsight, it would have been better to have 2 years of Tri-AX rigging experience now than two years of Poser"

But you was one of the most negative to Genesis and the "Game changing" DS. Like you was to the Gen 4 figures (your own admittance I wasn't around then). And now you are negative to Dawn, or rather to "Dawn technology".

Will you be wrong even a third time? I think so.

Quote - It's a shame the DSON importer didn't work well enough two years ago to make such a workflow possible. In hindsight, it would have been better to have 2 years of Tri-AX rigging experience now than two years of Poser weightmapping experience.

There was the cr2 exporter, but because of shareholder considerations, Poser 9 didn't have animated centers working properly on conformers until SR 2 or 3, so one was limited to dynamic clothing.

Of course, if DAZ had also taken more time with Studio, perhaps we might have skipped Genesis 1 and had Genesis 2-like figures a year earlier...

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

"Will you be wrong even a third time? I think so."

What are you talking about ?

Stuffing a gazillion of magnets into a figure's cr2 was, and alwas will be, a stupid idea. That V4 still became sucessful was simply due to a lack of alternatives.

And before the DSON importer worked properly, Genesis was indeed useless in Poser.

What good is a figure that bends flawlessly in Studio but bends like a Poser 3 figure in Poser ?

And as for DAWN, she uses the primitive Studio cr2 exporter to be "compatible", not the much more elaborate DSON importer. And her rigging is also bad because whoever rigged her simply isn't a good rigger, because even her joint centers are wrong.

And even IF Dawn would bend as well as Genesis-2, she'd still be useless due to her poor mesh topology.

BTW, I predicted the Poser/Studio rift long before anyone else did.

So, I think your question should be:

"When will you be RIGHT again ?"

:-)

I don't care what brand a figure is, who made it, what name it has, what system was used to rig it. Someone make something better than Genesis-2, I'll happily use that figure instead.

I only care about the result: How realistic can it bend, how easily can it be morphed, how efficient is the mesh ?

If that is too hard to understand for you, please and by all means set me to "ignore".

"There was the cr2 exporter, but because of shareholder considerations, Poser 9 didn't have animated centers working properly on conformers until SR 2 or 3, so one was limited to dynamic clothing."

That sounds...interresting. :-o

Any more juicy details ? :-)

"Of course, if DAZ had also taken more time with Studio, perhaps we might have skipped Genesis 1 and had Genesis 2-like figures a year earlier..."

I still think Genesis-1 was the "braver" Idea. But to be perfect, you'd need to inject "fixing" JCM's for every full bodymorph to compensate for rigging degeneration.

I think Vicky 5 and Mike 5 had that, but not the other "genepool" characters.

But in the end the merchants decided they hated to work with a unisex mesh, and for DAZ, the merchants are always right.

Personally, I don't mind the Genesis-2 split. I'd actually would also like to have a dedicated Genesis-2 child and a Genesis-2 monster base figure.

But for clothing support, the 100% unisex Genesis figure was actually better.

@AmbientShade:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2874212

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=4116475

This describes in detail how to go "Poser native" with Genesis.

Joe...

Reading your posts I have two questions (sorry for being dense):

As I understand it, all these hoops must only be jumped through once... after you save the CR2, V6 works like any other Poser character... right?
Once all said hoops are jumped, can DSON then be uninstalled? (Or is there a way to turn it on and off so it does not hog resourses?)

@ joePublic

Wake up call: The DSON importer is still useless for Poser users.

Load a couple of items in a scene, and any PC or MAC is on his knees.

Fiddling with DSON is a complete loss of quality hobby time, and the best medecin to get grey hair FAST.

Some things are just undefendable. DSON being one of them.

On a side note:

You KNOW, and I am SURE you KNOW, that I prefer the lower poly figures.

I had HIGH hopes for Gene 1 and 2, and family, VERY HIGH hopes.

Sorry to report but : HOPELESS , and as long as they keep fiddling with that DSON thing, UNFORGIVABLE!

The "G"'s are for DS and DS only.

I do not put a BMW engine in my Mercedes car either. ( both being good cars and having good engines )

Leave the engine in the car it was designed for.

Best regards, Tony

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

@ Basicwiz

You need DSON for every item you wanna load or convert. (depends)

When you buy something that was build for DS, and want to convert it to Poser, you need the DSON thing again.

Uninstall, re-install, uninstall, re-install is not a long term workable option.

Once converted, you can continue using the converted item as any other Poser item.

But to convert? You need the DSON script.

Or work the older style, and export as cr2 from DS. (Loosing some of the technology)

There just is no civilised way to continue working like this.

You spend more time fiddling as time having fun.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I was afraid this was still the case.

Thanks, Tony

Quote - "There was the cr2 exporter, but because of shareholder considerations, Poser 9 didn't have animated centers working properly on conformers until SR 2 or 3, so one was limited to dynamic clothing."

That sounds...interresting. :-o

Any more juicy details ? :-)

As I recall the explanation, the pre-paid preorder on Poser 9/Pro 2012 was done so they could bump their revenue up before the end of Q3, 2011 on September 30, because that's the revenue number that would appear on the SM 2011 Annual Report...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

"Reading your posts I have two questions (sorry for being dense):

As I understand it, all these hoops must only be jumped through once... after you save the CR2, V6 works like any other Poser character... right?
Once all said hoops are jumped, can DSON then be uninstalled? (Or is there a way to turn it on and off so it does not hog resourses?)"

To 1: Yes.

Only if you add more morphs/characters (Like Stephanie 6 or Olympia for example), you have to create a new Poser cr2 file.

To 2: Yes, you could do that.

But what makes you think DSON is a resource hog ?

It only "works" during import to create a "virtual" cr2 and object file.

All my method actually does is to "freeze" that "virtual" cr2 file and link it to a permanent object file.

What makes (made !) Vicky 6 more resource hungry is (was!) the "always on" subdivision. (Now even a subdivided Genesis doesn't noticeably slow the OpenGL preview down)

But you actually don't need my workflow to "switch it off", you can do that just as well using the DSON support scripts.

You just have to manually switch subdivision back on before you do your final render.

Hi !

My opinion, DSON with poser is, as we say in french, "du bricolage", it's just the way to use Daz product in Poser nothing else. Eating resources, resources needed by poser for render. SM is able to create real Poser characters, they have means for that. They just dont want seying Daz Studio die. Daz Studio the "create art" button.

Create art button, sériously, have an eye in the gallery !!!

Some rendres look like my renders under Imagine with my Amiga. Moi j'aurais honte.

I stay with V4 and Ppro2012. First 2014 is a simple "evolution" of 2012, not a revolution, same bugs, same artifacts, "j'en passe et des meilleures", second i buy a lot of stuff for V4, i dont want do the same for other characters. My purse isn't the Horn of plenty.

Génération mobiles Le Forum / Le Site

Quote - My opinion, DSON with poser is, as we say in french, "du bricolage", it's just the way to use Daz product in Poser nothing else. Eating resources, resources needed by poser for render. SM is able to create real Poser characters, they have means for that. They just dont want seying Daz Studio die. Daz Studio the "create art" button.

Yes they can create real poser characters, but not characters anyone wants. Hence everyone wants to be bitter and bash DAZ for it. Perhaps if SM created some decent characters, everyone wouldn't have the need to erroneously bash DAZ.

Quote - Create art button, sériously, have an eye in the gallery !!!

Some rendres look like my renders under Imagine with my Amiga. Moi j'aurais honte.

I think you can say that about any render made in an app. Not a particually nice thing to say about anyone's art. Doesn't make you look good for making the comment and puts a negative spin on the conversation for no reason.

Quote - I stay with V4 and Ppro2012. First 2014 is a simple "evolution" of 2012, not a revolution, same bugs, same artifacts, "j'en passe et des meilleures", second i buy a lot of stuff for V4, i dont want do the same for other characters. My purse isn't the Horn of plenty.

And that's pretty much why DAZ improves their tech so you're not staying with 8 year old figures and have no reason to really upgrade your app. Not sure why you're bashing DAZ because of it.

Ok, here we are back at square one.

Locking thread.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Why Vicky is smart....

NO, Joepublic for Once I do not agree at all.

This is misleading and direction / result manipulated / controlled.

Let me make something cristal clear here ; As white as snow, as deep as the ocean.

And I fear I am not the only one being fed up with this forcefeeding some are trying to achieve.