She has her following, content is slowly appearing, both commercial and free. And some commercial content has also been discounted once or twice to be more affordable. So the serious content collector, who has taken advantage of sales, should be able to do something nice with Dawn now. But no, she is not ruling by any means.

Why? Personally I find her look very distinctive. Attractive, but distinctive. She isn't a good blank canvas, in my opinion. It is not easy for the ordinary user to create a character that is not obviously Dawn using the official morphs. Dawn doesn't yet have a morph set to equal the flexibility offered by V4's Morphs++. It isn't even straightforward to just export the head to a modelling programme and make your own face morph, like it is with other figures. You have to make a whole body morph - the process is just a bit too complicated for the casual user. Because of that, I am not even tempted to get the texture converter to use V4 textures on Dawn. If I want to use a V4 character, I can just use V4 and have more flexibility in the morphs (The same applies to using V4 textures on Roxie, but that is a different matter).

However, the new African set at Hivewire opens up new possibilities and I will use Dawn more often, simply because that exists - due to my personal preference and needs. It may not make a difference to other users.

Dawn faces tough competition. V4 is still mighty, and the Genesis figures also have their following. Gearing up to really use a new figure to its full potential is expensive. Dawn is an alternative, expanding our options, nothing more.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

I find that when I look at the promos for various things where presumably artists have done their best work (I really like promo art), i find that the dawn's on the whole don't look as good to me as the V4s.

Also I think she looks about 35 years old at least.

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

NanetteTredoux : I don't understand what ya saying about morphing just Dawns face ?
could ya exsplain it more.is it how she's cut in to sections or something ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I agree with Nanette. I don't think Dawn has matured enough yet to cause wholesale defection of V4 users.

V4's ascendancy over V3 wasn't immediate either. I didn't start using her until years after she was released.

Now that I have Blacksmith3d, and can convert textures, I may try my hand at doing morphs for Dawn. I didn't buy the packs because I, just like Nanette, didn't see them as offering me as much as I felt I'd need. If my morphing attempts work out, I'll likely use her quite a bit more often.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - NanetteTredoux : I don't understand what ya saying about morphing just Dawns face ?
could ya exsplain it more.is it how she's cut in to sections or something ?

I think Nanette means you can't make a PBM for just Dawn's head. Her head and lower jaw are separate pieces so you need to do an FBM to get them both.

I haven't tried 2 PBMs with a controller morph yet though.

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I'm not sure I see a problem. V4 has been out for at least eight years. Dawn has been out for just under a year. V4 didn't take over in a year either. I don't personally use Dawn, but I'm sure you realize that I'm a Roxie junkie by now. Plus, Dawn faces challenges that V4 never did.

Besides, most of the people who were really into Dawn have pretty much abandoned the Rendo forums and and are doing a lot of posting over at Hivewire.

Quote - NanetteTredoux : I don't understand what ya saying about morphing just Dawns face ?
could ya exsplain it more.is it how she's cut in to sections or something ?

I believe Dawn is a single mesh figure, which is more optimal with weightmapping. Any morph that you make affects the whole figure, so you would need a utility that allows you to import the morph but only saving your changes to a morph file. Everything is treated as a full body morph as result (though you can name it a PBM). You can't export only the head portion of the mesh and import it back in because that would cause vertex order errors, since it is a single mesh.

Quote - I agree with Nanette. I don't think Dawn has matured enough yet to cause wholesale defection of V4 users.

V4's ascendancy over V3 wasn't immediate either. I didn't start using her until years after she was released.

Now that I have Blacksmith3d, and can convert textures, I may try my hand at doing morphs for Dawn. I didn't buy the packs because I, just like Nanette, didn't see them as offering me as much as I felt I'd need. If my morphing attempts work out, I'll likely use her quite a bit more often.

Dawn is actually past her maturity cycle and is on her way out. If she was maturing, gaining popularity or marketshare, content releases for her would at least maintain a steady level to this day, but content for her is far and in between compared to the popular figures. Content support for her has tapered off, with hardly any current major vendor support (maybe one or two).

So... will she magically get a boom of support? I doubt it. Seen it all before, same old same old...And there is a reason why she has little content support because she is mainly targeted to Poser users with the latest version. Only they can use her. People in Daz have the Genesis models. Add that up and that is a very limited market. V4 can be used by more Poser users because she is more compatable, and is why she will remain more popular than Dawn in this market and from a business perspective is not a good investment. Also V4 can pretty much do what Dawn can and Dawn does not really offer anything new. She is actually a step backward, and not a step forward in my opinion. I feel sorry for her male counterpart that must still be released. A lot of content developers have seen through the Hivewire hype, take that away and you're left with a model that brings nothing new feature wise.

My Renderosity Store

" I feel sorry for her male counterpart that must still be released. A lot of content developers have seen through the Hivewire hype, take that away and you're left with a model that brings nothing new feature wise."

Sorry but I have to disagree with you there. Every new figure is a learning process. The male will undoubtedly be different, as will the teen. These new ones might be imensely popular, depening on what they are like.

Just like M4 was better than V4. ie no magnets etc.

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

Quote - > Quote - I agree with Nanette. I don't think Dawn has matured enough yet to cause wholesale defection of V4 users.

V4's ascendancy over V3 wasn't immediate either. I didn't start using her until years after she was released.

Now that I have Blacksmith3d, and can convert textures, I may try my hand at doing morphs for Dawn. I didn't buy the packs because I, just like Nanette, didn't see them as offering me as much as I felt I'd need. If my morphing attempts work out, I'll likely use her quite a bit more often.

Dawn is actually past her maturity cycle and is on her way out. If she was maturing, gaining popularity or marketshare, content releases for her would at least maintain a steady level to this day, but content for her is far and in between compared to the popular figures. Content support for her has tapered off, with hardly any current major vendor support (maybe one or two).

So... will she magically get a boom of support? I doubt it. Seen it all before, same old same old...And there is a reason why she has little content support because she is mainly targeted to Poser users with the latest version. Only they can use her. People in Daz have the Genesis models. Add that up and that is a very limited market. V4 can be used by more Poser users because she is more compatable, and is why she will remain more popular than Dawn in this market and from a business perspective is not a good investment. Also V4 can pretty much do what Dawn can and Dawn does not really offer anything new. She is actually a step backward, and not a step forward in my opinion. I feel sorry for her male counterpart that must still be released. A lot of content developers have seen through the Hivewire hype, take that away and you're left with a model that brings nothing new feature wise.

Spoken like someone who has a financial ox to gore. Major vendor support? What do you consider major? Or rather... who? And V4's days are numbered... literally. She's living on borrowed time. Meanwhile... Genesis still isn't the V4 killer everyone thought it would be. But the longer both Dawn and Genesis remain on the market, building up their content... Victoria 4 will fall! (dum, dum, dumm)

Yes, I was referring to the lower jaw and head being separate. I exported the head and looked at what was exported... I gave up right there and made a head morph for another figure instead. Vilters is right, new figures must be content creator friendly.

I don't really agree that Dawn is past maturity and on her way out. I do think she was released prematurely. A new figure needs a good set of morphs to make her versatile, even if I have to pay for them. Instead, the morphs came out in small, limited packages.

I had planned to use Dawn for the book I am illustrating, but after being unable to get the look I wanted with Dawn, I reverted to another figure (V3, as it happens), and everything fell into place with ease.

There was too much hype when Dawn was released. Hyping up a product too much leads to people feeling let down eventually. Not a new era, just a new figure.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

ye wish she would have been better receved ive mest around with her alittle and i like her there is potecual in her. love the Goz funktion in poser.

Morph are easy to make with the GOz facs morphs, body mrophs,

love Xurges suite for Dawn

here an example

actually v4 did throw v3 off her throne as soon as she was released.
but v4 is just a v3 upgrade so.

So
the way Dawn looks
The way Dawn's sectioned
is why she's not so popular

anymore probleams with her ?

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

GoZ only works if you have Z-brush, it doesn't help me. I make morphs in Blender.

I am personally prepared to give Dawn more time and buy some more content for her at the right price - morphs and textures. And I am waiting for the male figure with interest.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

I agree with Nannette. I do believe Dawn was rushed out too early, but I also believe Hivewire wanted to ride the wave of Poser's new release. Dawn would have been better received if she had a full morphs package.

Yep the morph pak would have been the definner for alot of people.

im fine waiting mounth longer to have amazing kickbutt morphs.

like the Gen2 HDs morphs dang those are awesome

Dawn, with the Dawn texture, will always be Dawn. No matter how you morph the mesh.

The mesh is crying for far better and free textures.

A new figure "drives" on its free stuff. => No free stuff? => Figure as dead as a rock within days.

Hivewire started thinking in dollars about a year too soon.
They simply "forgot" to make their figure popular before starting to think in dollars.

Now it is too late, over and done with.
The "hype" they created is gone with the wind.

Actually, I feel sorry for them. The potential and the oportunity where there.
Now, they'r both gone.

And I hope they realise:

You NEVER get a second chance to make a first impression.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - And I hope they realise:

You NEVER get a second chance to make a first impression.

This^. Specially in this marketplace and especially with a new figure.

My Renderosity Store

Dawn's release could have been better, true. Of course, we're talking with the benefit of hindsight here.

I can't give any educated opinion on the whole "Dawn" thing because I've not even bothered to download her. That said, I think it would be a shame if she didn't do well, because I do like the idea behind her.

If I were to go into the business of developing a figure for use with both programs, I'm pretty sure I'd have gone the 'two versions' route as well. Whoever created her deserves to do well because the logic behind her makes sense, makes it easy for the users, and doesn't discriminate either userbase.

To me that's 'good business', and good business deserves to do well.

Quote - I can't give any educated opinion on the whole "Dawn" thing because I've not even bothered to download her. That said, I think it would be a shame if she didn't do well, because I do like the idea behind her.

If I were to go into the business of developing a figure for use with both programs, I'm pretty sure I'd have gone the 'two versions' route as well. Whoever created her deserves to do well because the logic behind her makes sense, makes it easy for the users, and doesn't discriminate either userbase.

To me that's 'good business', and good business deserves to do well.

I'd like Dawn to succeed as well but I am not so convinced that having a figure that can work with both programs was such a good idea. My main problem is I do not see the what group of people they are marketing to. Many Poser users do not use Daz studio for different reasons so they are not bothered if their 'Poser' figure works in Daz. A lot of Daz users already have a new better bending figure in Genesis so they are not that interested either. Those that use both Studio and Poser have access to Genesis with no extra hoops to jump through. That is not to say users will not use Dawn in either program, they will, I just don't see a vast number of people who benefit from a figure that works in both.

If it was an attempt to try and heal the split that some people felt a while ago, it was doomed from the start. As for me I was really interested in Dawn until I saw the lack of morphs from day one or even month one. From a personal point of view, as a Poser user, Dawn has so much in common with Genesis in that she does not give me anything I cannot do with V4WM. I don't really care how old she is, or listen much to the prophets of doom, she has a place in my runtime until something better, not just new, comes along.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Vilters, there are better textures now, I am happy about that. And more variety too, it is coming, but slowly. But I agree in one sense: The original texture, as well as the original shape, was too distinctive.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

Quote - I'd like Dawn to succeed as well but I am not so convinced that having a figure that can work with both programs was such a good idea. My main problem is I do not see the what group of people they are marketing to. Many Poser users do not use Daz studio for different reasons so they are not bothered if their 'Poser' figure works in Daz. A lot of Daz users already have a new better bending figure in Genesis so they are not that interested either. Those that use both Studio and Poser have access to Genesis with no extra hoops to jump through. That is not to say users will not use Dawn in either program, they will, I just don't see a vast number of people who benefit from a figure that works in both.

If it was an attempt to try and heal the split that some people felt a while ago, it was doomed from the start. As for me I was really interested in Dawn until I saw the lack of morphs from day one or even month one. From a personal point of view, as a Poser user, Dawn has so much in common with Genesis in that she does not give me anything I cannot do with V4WM. I don't really care how old she is, or listen much to the prophets of doom, she has a place in my runtime until something better, not just new, comes along.

I don't really see why that's a concern of the customer's. If Dawn works for you and you want to use it, then use her in whichever program works for you.

**
@Hornet**
Well, if there was a poor set of morphs distributed with her then that probably explains a lot. The market is flooded with figures, so any newcomer is going to need plus-points to get noticed, not minus-points.

I can think of no bigger minus than not having a decent morph set to be going on with. Sounds kinda suicidal from the outset so hopefully they'll rectify the situation with a quality set of morphs, something to rescue the effort already invested.

As I wrote before.

YOU NEVER GET A SECOND CHANCE TO MAKE A FIRST IMPRESSION.

Dawn is for the history books. All due to a complete mismanagement of the release.

Secondary issues.
So STRONG a texture that it overrides the mesh, whatever you do with it.
No morphs.
Bad morphs.
Non standard construction.
A DS figure, converted to Poser. (With TONS of internel errors)
And the list goes, on and on, and on, and on. . . . .

Even when they would geve gold bars away to each buyer, the ship is sinking, and its going down FAST.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

The main issue I have with her mesh is the topology. It really restricts what you can do if you are aiming for realism sculpting wise. EG she does not allow for realistic muscle definition and details in a lot of places. Even Hivewires own muscle morphs are no comparison to V4's muscle morphs and same with the other shape groups. There is a huge gap in detail and realism anatomy wise.

My Renderosity Store

But? i have to complement Dawn as well.
She lasted 21 minutes longer on my HD as Genesis did.

For the record :
As long as figure builders do not understand the difference between a balloon and a breast, we will never get a good figure.
Sometimes I wonder: Have they ever seen a naked woman in real life? ? ? ?
I wonder.

Roxie being the exeption here. She has breasts.
They are only 2" too high on the chest, but she has breasts, and room in the mesh to lower them.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

DAWN topology?

When I first saw her, I thought ; This is build somewhere in between the V3 and V4 period.
Just to reduce the ridiculous high polycount that was popular at that time.

Well, it must be an older mesh, as there are way to many tris, to be a modern mesh.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote -
I can't give any educated opinion on the whole "Dawn" thing because I've not even bothered to download her. That said, I think it would be a shame if she didn't do well, because I do like the idea behind her.

If I were to go into the business of developing a figure for use with both programs, I'm pretty sure I'd have gone the 'two versions' route as well. Whoever created her deserves to do well because the logic behind her makes sense, makes it easy for the users, and doesn't discriminate either userbase.

To me that's 'good business', and good business deserves to do well.

Actually I think it was bad business as you can see not a lot of content is available and most of it is in one program. While is sounds good on paper to customers, it shifted the burden of compatiblity to the vendors, and considering this is a business of small profit margins, not many ended up supporting that methodology. Any time you put the burden on vendors to do more for the same profit, the less those vendors are willing to do it.

Part of the hype that was generated was the fact that in the there were two native figures, there would be tech to convert content from one platform to another. As a result that generated a lot of excitement for those that felt they got abandoned when Genesis came along. However that tool was something that DAZ created and abandoned as there was too much fighting to even get the tool properly tested (CR2 exporter), and was missing a lot of stuff, and the fact you had to open DAZ Studio to get to it turned off a lot of people.

So really the two platforms came down to leaning to lots of content availability for one app, and limited in another because of the amount of work that is needed versus just creating content once and being able at least get in in both.

Quote - DAWN topology?

When I first saw her, I thought ; This is build somewhere in between the V3 and V4 period.
Just to reduce the ridiculous high polycount that was popular at that time.

Well, it must be an older mesh, as there are way to many tris, to be a modern mesh.

Tris on a mesh isn't really a problem, it's where they are located and what direction they are in. Sometimes they can really mess up a good sculpt based on their orientation.

My Renderosity Store

Yes and we see how much support Roxie gets. There's about 5 people building anything for her, including SM.

Dawn however has her own web store, and her developers and fan base are still making content for her and other figures to go along with her, so all this talk about Dawn is over is nothing more than argument baiting.

Dawn so far has been the most successful non-daz figure released and it doesn't seem like she's going to disappear any time soon. Her forums remain active. The people that are using her and building content for her now will likely continue to use her and support Dawn2 whenever she releases, which I'm sure will be an improvement over Dawn1. Those people don't post here anymore because of people like some in this thread who think they have a clue about what is and isn't popular or going to last and just want to sling mud.

So if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion then don't post.

As for breasts, no one wants to see deflated meat flaps. They want breasts that look good in or out of clothing.

~Shane

I never downloaded her either. The idea was interesting - well a new figure is always potentially interesting - but as soon as I saw the promos I lost interest. Didn't look anything close to V4 or GNDA2 and not very much different from V3. Not something I need. To live up to the hype she would've needed to be something much more.

I haven't followed Daz since Genesis was released, but they always seem to be very good at creating hype for a new figure (or variation on a figure) and then following through. I guess the guys who formed the Hivewire team weren't the ones responsible for the Daz figure launches.

**
@Male_M3dia**
It depends on what your definition of "good business" is.

Some people go into business where money is the only objective, and that's fine if you're wired like that, it's business after all. But the problem with that business model is that it has a bottleneck right from the start: you're competing with everyone else in your field that have the same goal, whereas if your goal is not simply one of money, you are not so constrained by it (if at all).

Launching Dawn the way they did can be likened to promoting a new tablet platform without an app store, so as far as I can tell, any failure is down to the way it's been orchestrated, it's not down to the idea behind it; there's nothing wrong with the idea of supplying a dedicated version for each platform, and like I said, it benefits the user.

Vendor convenience is not important; customer convenience is.

The only real benefit (to the developer) in creating a single figure in two platform versions is branding, nothing else. If the content is not compatible between them then they might as well be called totally different names and each have their own marketing campaign. The only things identical between them, as far as I can tell, is the figure shape and the name, "Dawn", so I'm guessing the developer realised this when they took the decision to go this route.

Dawn appears to be a "branding" designed to give a feeling of unity across the two platforms, and that's a good idea, it's good business. I think any failure is down to orchestration, not the base logic behind the idea.

Quote - I guess the guys who formed the Hivewire team weren't the ones responsible for the Daz figure launches.

Chris Creek was one of the co-founders of Zygote/Daz. Chris is one of the founders of Hivewire, along with Eric Merritt, also a co-founder of Zygote. Chris is also behind the ever popular "Dancing Baby", Dork, Posette, Victoria, and Michael.

-----sig-----
Daz, Blender, Affinity, Substance, Unity, Python, C#

"As for breasts, no one wants to see deflated meat flaps. They want breasts that look good in or out of clothing."*

Very true!

Quote - *
"As for breasts, no one wants to see deflated meat flaps. They want breasts that look good in or out of clothing."*

Very true!

Hope you two aren't married when you're 80. ;)

-----sig-----
Daz, Blender, Affinity, Substance, Unity, Python, C#

Quote - Vendor convenience is not important; customer convenience is.

Vendors are customers first. In regards to Poser figures, vendor convenience is pretty important, unless you want to be the only one making content for that figure. Most of the end users aren't the ones making content. The end users are only going to use figures that content is available for. They're not interested in fighting with the fitting room, any more than they're interested in fighting with dynamic clothing or dynamic hair. The load-click-render users are still the driving force behind most vendor's sales. So it comes down to how good a figure is designed and how easy it is to use content for it, and make content for it, since without vendor support, a figure will never be widely used.

Quote - > Quote - "*

"As for breasts, no one wants to see deflated meat flaps. They want breasts that look good in or out of clothing."*

Very true!

Hope you two aren't married when you're 80. ;)

lol. Well, I'll never be married. But for the rest out there, that's why plastic surgeons make millions doing what they do.

~Shane

Quote - lol. Well, I'll never be married. But for the rest out there, that's why plastic surgeons make millions doing what they do.

~Shane

Ah yes, the realistic, and more expensive, morph brush.

-----sig-----
Daz, Blender, Affinity, Substance, Unity, Python, C#

Quote - Yes and we see how much support Roxie gets. There's about 5 people building anything for her, including SM.

Dawn however has her own web store, and her developers and fan base are still making content for her and other figures to go along with her, so all this talk about Dawn is over is nothing more than argument baiting.

Dawn so far has been the most successful non-daz figure released and it doesn't seem like she's going to disappear any time soon. Her forums remain active. The people that are using her and building content for her now will likely continue to use her and support Dawn2 whenever she releases, which I'm sure will be an improvement over Dawn1. Those people don't post here anymore because of people like some in this thread who think they have a clue about what is and isn't popular or going to last and just want to sling mud.

So if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion then don't post.

As for breasts, no one wants to see deflated meat flaps. They want breasts that look good in or out of clothing.

~Shane

I Agree. with what you said,

"So if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion then don't post."

I'd like to add.. +10,000,000^Pi for ALL threads

In the V1 days there was about 3 CGI Artist on the entire planet that could model characters.

Chris Creek modeled V1 a.k.a. posetta,V2,V3,V4,V5 & Dawn.
can't remember V2 topology.but V3 to V6 ya can see the topologys built from the one before.So even if he's names not on V6 he's influence still is.

All the coments about Dawn's imperfections.
We could make a list about any meshes imperfections.
There not perfect.

I just can't believe Criss Creek can't conquer it all.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - In the V1 days there was about 3 CGI Artist on the entire planet that could model characters.

Chris Creek modeled V1 a.k.a. posetta,V2,V3,V4,V5 & Dawn.
can't remember V2 topology.but V3 to V6 ya can see the topologys built from the one before.So even if he's names not on V6 he's influence still is.

All the coments about Dawn's imperfections.
We could make a list about any meshes imperfections.
There not perfect.

I just can't believe Criss Creek can't conquer it all.

Well, armed with a gallen of chocolet milk oreio cookies bage of coolranch doritoes, he will, O he will

Unfortunately, I look, check, compare and delete balloon figures.

Hey, I have been modifying balloons into breast from as long ago as Poser3.

Figures from SM, DAZ, or whatever, I do not care any more where they come from.

If they do not get it by now? So Sorry, but under the Delete button they go.

I am sick and tired of pulling vertices around.

Iif they still do not get it by now? It is THEIR problem, not mine.

I do not know that particular "Chris" , but I think it is time for most figure creators to drop the "theroretical correct references", and to look at a real woman in real life.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Lets face it, no new character will ever take off at this point.

People complain that there are no new characters of any value, and as soon as a new one is released it is bashed to pieces before it can even take hold.

Lots of people wanted standardized versions on Antonia. How long did that last?

Then they wanted a weight mapped version of Antonia, Same deal...

People wanted a weight mapped V4, that didn't last much longer.... And there are more than a few versions now to boot.

I could go on and on, but the story is the same. The arm chair developers control what happens to a figure by what they post.

There are a lot of arm chair developers around that bash everything that appears, because it isn't "insert whatever". Some have never even downloaded it and admit that. Sort of ironic isn't it....

If anyone else thinks they can create the next big figure, best of luck.

You can give people exactly what they ask for, and they still complain about "insert whatever".

Been there, done that......... On many characters....

The only way to force a new characters reign, is to remove reverse compatability in the programs. We all know that wont happen any time soon. The arm chair developers would have a fit....

/Carry on......

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

Quote - .... but I think it is time for most figure creators to drop the "theroretical correct references", and to look at a real woman in real life.

Tony, I think you are (almost) alone in that respect. Most users want a pretty figure which looks real in their (not very accurate) mind.

And even if you want to create a realistic figure - how should it look like? There is so much diversity among humans that whatever you make, it won't be acceptable for the majority of the potential users.

On the Poser spec, IMHO, the base right now that should be developed for is Poser 9 (2012 is included obviously). Poser 9 is the minimum for newer script support, addon support, weight-mapping, sub-surface scattering and other things that really shine through for current generation products (not to be confused with Victoria's generation). It's what you need if you wish to utilize Reality, Octane, DSON for Genesis in Poser (without baking it as a DS export) and that sort of thing. So in my mind it's the base and as we go to further Poser versions, that will be more cemented. For too long, Poser 4 has been the base and it's time to step it up.

But with saying that, all those toys and features are still options and that's the way it should be. SM has a good track record for keeping things backwards compatible, so you can still use non-weighted content and you can mix and match it. Poser's grouped object system may not be standard (when you look at games and other things like that) but it does build on what was there before instead of just replacing it and sorry, but I think that's a smart move. Not only does it give youi the option of hybridization but it allows you to conform non-weighted content to weighted content and vice-versa. And frankly, the all-in-one object is true in games but they are still broken down into weighted body parts, it's just that the divisions are cut on the rigging level (and can overlap).

Sorry but the OP's initial post does come off as something of a taunt. Sure it's legitimate to wonder and discuss the pole position of where the various figures are at but the initial wording invites fighting.

You can dissect every figure and find flaws. Certainly the queen bea Victoria 4 flaws too, even when she was new. And by the way, I disagree that V3 was ousted immediately. It took some time to gain momentum and there weren't replacements for Aiko 3, Stephanie Petite or The Girl ready out of the gate. And speaking only for Aiko, the figure had a significant chunk of fans. Plus, at that time, DAZ was the only game in town and we had a two-way road between Poser and DS (with already existing blocks). Now we are dealing with a fragmented overview. Out of that fragmentation, "most" users use Victoria 4, but I think that "most" is certainly smaller than it used to be. But again, we only know what we can touch and see, so that means we only know by the response in our community, which is significantly smaller than the pool of larger buyers.

Scott is right in that any new figure is going to be ripped to shreds and even if you scan a real human and build an exact copy as a figure, someone will find flaws with it. For every text-book dissection of the human anatomy, there are multiple exceptions. There is no example of "every real woman" - there is just way too many differences from one person to the next. You're not going to please everyone and the best you can do is hopefully please a large portion.

The best you could do for Dawn 2, if you cared to, is note what you don't like and give constructive reasons why. This is what I would cite but before I put it out, I want to say that none of it is such a barrier that it can't be worked around or worked into.

The extra body cuts don't seem to really add much benefit, particularly when it comes to being weight mapped. I would go through and use the kiss principle to eliminate extra cuts if they aren't significantly adding anything positive. Two necks was tried on V1/V2. We even had extra buttock parts on V3. I don't think it's really necessary and just adds more cuts to deal with for content development. Dropping a Pelvis under hip is interesting but is it adding something so non-standard that causes extra work in conversion or rigging without any real benefit? - types of internal questions to ask.
The jaw split from the head makes it automatically tricky to create head morphs or to produce work where weight maps are projected and need the "head" but not the jaw. There's no real good reason to split the jaw when open mouth and jaw shifting morphs can already be designed.
The big faerie secondary lashes make it additionally tricky to create head morphs. I think it would have been better to just include faerie whatzits as morph targets.

I think those are the biggest hang-ups. Yes, I could also say that DS and Poser in the WM department are too different and there are not enough cross-tools to get the job done and heal the divide. But I personally don't mind if content divulges and some is available here and some over there, in terms of apps. Unless there are two-way street tools to facilitate 2 different workflows of content creation and rigging, that's what you are going to have.

As far as which pizza reigns supreme, even if Dawn has a niche, as long as it is significant enough, that's fine. Unless the tech gets closed off, which has been already noted, any non-V4 figure is going to be niche as long as content is still created for V4 to the degree we've had for 8 years. That includes Roxie, Genesis and any other figure you want to write down. Large niches, small niches, doesn't matter, they are still below the queen bea.

Truth is, you can find a "flaw" with every person on the planet. There's no such thing as a "perfect" human specimen.

V4 had 2 official updates to fix flaws and she STILL has flaws. Some of the hottest supermodels on the planet get airbrushed to eliminated some of their flaws. Why should the digital world be any different?

"There's no such thing as a "perfect" human specimen."

*You've obvously never met me :lol:

I'm so perfect that I get endless letters from women asking me to donate sperm to one of those futuristic sperm banks. I've been contacted, on numerous occasions, due to my incredible intelligence, asking if I'd donate my brain to scientific research.

And last but certainly not least, I get sexual offerings from the worlds most beautiful women on a daily basis. Trouble is, if I fall prey to that one then I obviously forfeit my chance of earning money from the sperm bank.*

Then I woke up.

It's too bad JoePublic's "Danielle" for Dawn never came to fruition. Wonder if HW3D's stance on encoded CR2s have laxed a little now that she's been out for a bit.

-----sig-----
Daz, Blender, Affinity, Substance, Unity, Python, C#

Did they have a strong stance on alternate cr2s? If the morphs are pmd and the geometry is elsewhere, then why? I never understood that one, unless it's used to develop a competing figure.

I don't get it, either. They were concerned regarding multiple versions of Dawn, and only that a small distro could be handed out for collaboration purposes. AFAIK Danielle was a complete rework- morph, joints, weights, etc. The whole shebang, and he just couldn't find anyone willing to do the work to turn the CR2 into something that would inject into the actual Dawn figure.

Here's the original thread JP posted about his reworking: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2871446

And the thread at HW3D: http://hivewire3d.com/forum/showthread.php?541-Distribution-of-RTEncoded-Dawn-cr2

-----sig-----
Daz, Blender, Affinity, Substance, Unity, Python, C#

I'm making Poser 10 & Poser Pro 14 content.
have no interest in making content for any earlier versions of Poser
Will the stores still sell it ?

Poser 10 & Poser Pro 14.
those names drive me crazy.
alt to be Poser 14 & Poser Pro 14.
So poser 11 alt to be Poser 16.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Any time you put the burden on vendors to do more for the same profit, the less those vendors are willing to do it.

I can't speak to what Hivewire is doing, since I don't know, and this isn't really the place to discuss it.

But speaking of hypothetical business practices, indeed, people seem to keep forgetting that vendors are, for the most part, freelancers. You don't get to dictate onerous terms to freelancers unless you have such a large share of the market that they have no choice but to work with you. Hence the kerfuffle going in book publishing.

I was about to spout off my own theories about succeeding in the 3d content market, when it occurred to me that it could so easily be a very short-lived business anyway:

It seems to me that if Amazon joined in to the 3d content market, and vendors started migrating there, it'd change the game rather significantly.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Disturbed - Indestructible

shvrdavid :
I Sincerely agree with every thing you said.
but that's what makes it the ultimate challenge.
to win at the game that no one else can.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - > Quote - Any time you put the burden on vendors to do more for the same profit, the less those vendors are willing to do it.

I can't speak to what Hivewire is doing, since I don't know, and this isn't really the place to discuss it.

But speaking of hypothetical business practices, indeed, people seem to keep forgetting that vendors are, for the most part, freelancers. You don't get to dictate onerous terms to freelancers unless you have such a large share of the market that they have no choice but to work with you. Hence the kerfuffle going in book publishing.

I was about to spout off my own theories about succeeding in the 3d content market, when it occurred to me that it could so easily be a very short-lived business anyway:

It seems to me that if Amazon joined in to the 3d content market, and vendors started migrating there, it'd change the game rather significantly.

Yeah, I personally feel that building the same content for two different programs to be extraneous untill there are enough cross-the-lines utilties available to ease the burden. Of course there is nothing barring someone from making Poser-only content. It might not be well-favored across the aisles but as you said, most vendors are freelancers, so it really is a choice at the end of the day.

If Dawn 2 came out soon, I would be really upset, and I wouldn't be willing to spend money to make her usable, unless she where were great and free, out of the box, no add-ons needed - we know that is not how it will go. The first release of Dawn is only becoming usable for me now, that I have a reasonable set of morphs, including third party morphs, and a selection of textures to make her look different. I am happy to make clothes for her now.

I would be interested in a male version, but again, if the morphs were absent, expensive or limited I wouldn't buy. And I need non-caucasian textures. So, having seen how things progressed with Dawn I would probably wait before committing to the male version.

Dawn at least has a chance of surviving. With Rex and Roxie, Smith Micro made the same mistakes and worse - figures that were released with major flaws and no third party support, that didn't initially even work in the face room and had very limited other morphs to change the face, and only a caucasian texture. Would you have bought them, or even downloaded them for free if they hadn't come with the software? Rex and Roxie have been around longer than Dawn, and at this time I only have only one character set for Roxie with a few skin tones (by Virtual_World and now on sale here), and two for Rex, both by 3Dream. The Rex textures are both caucasian, even if there are different shades. The Roxie set at least enables me to create characters that could conceivably be a different race, and I can sculpt the head morphs myself in Blender.

To make it worse, an essential update for Rex and Roxie is then released, but it makes previously created morphs incompatible. Then a major error is found in the updated Roxie and she is updated again (I am not sure whether the same thing happened with Rex). It is a comedy of errors, and this is one of the reasons why I am still interested in Dawn. I bought a character for Dawn yesterday (again by Virtual_World), so I am still engaged, prepared to buy and make stuff, when it comes to Dawn.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

At some point, Daz asked the question, "What would happen if Poser were pulled from the market?" The horrifying implications -- their entire business would fall apart -- led to the development of Daz Studio. And it took years to become the software that it is today.

If you imagine the question, "What would happen if Daz decided to pull V4 from the market?"

Then Dawn is the answer for Poser users.

To be sure, many of us believe that SM should prepare for that possibility. But historically, Poser has relied on third party content creators, and Hivewire continues in that tradition.

I think most Poser users (who are dissatisfied with the Poser figures) have a vested interest in supporting what Hivewire is doing. And if not that, at least we have a vested interest in not undermining them.

I don't think that either possibility (Poser being pulled or V4 being pulled) is likely to occur. But I don't believe there's anything wrong with preparing for the possibility. And if it did happen that V4 vanished, Hivewire would be in a very good position to dominate the content market for Poser users.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Autodesk bought Maya.
When SM sells Poser ,DAZ could buy Poser.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I think the scenario of DAZ buying Poser is highly unlikely.

A few days ago DAZ ran a huge sale on V4 and M4 stuff, calling it "cleaning house" or something like that. It could have been a sales tactic, but it made me worry. The discounts were good though, but I couldn't help wondering if they were serious about the cleaning house part of it, and if it meant that support for V4 and M4 would be discontinued any time soon.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

Quote - Autodesk bought Maya.
When SM sells Poser ,DAZ could buy Poser.

Sure. As long as Poser were up for sale. (AFAIK we have no reason to believe it will be.) They could buy it and cease development. Or someone else could do the same. That seems to be a common tactic these days.

But there's speculation that encourages thinking about solutions, and then there's speculation of a sort that permits no solutions. Best to keep it real, I think. :)

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - I think the scenario of DAZ buying Poser is highly unlikely.

A few days ago DAZ ran a huge sale on V4 and M4 stuff, calling it "cleaning house" or something like that. It could have been a sales tactic, but it made me worry. The discounts were good though, but I couldn't help wondering if they were serious about the cleaning house part of it, and if it meant that support for V4 and M4 would be discontinued any time soon.

Support might be discontinued from them as they focus on the Genesis range, but when last have they released anything for V4 or M4 in-house? They stopped a while ago to be honest. As long as vendors still make content, there is nothing to worry about. The situation won't be any different as to what it is now. Only way it changes is if vendors discontinue support.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - Sure. As long as Poser were up for sale. (AFAIK we have no reason to believe it will be.)

Well, Smith Micro is in financial dire straights. Stock is below one dollar (~78c today, that's down from a stock price of ~$16 in the beginning of 2011). This is mostly due to the poor performance of their wireless and mobility solutions section which is by far the largest part of their business (SM is not primarily a graphics company). The software section which includes all graphics software and things like StuffIt is not doing badly, but it is a small part of their business. You can find the numbers in their last financial report that sent the stock down by 50% or so in a day. What does this mean for Poser? Who knows, we will see.

Quote - > Quote - I guess the guys who formed the Hivewire team weren't the ones responsible for the Daz figure launches.

Chris Creek was one of the co-founders of Zygote/Daz. Chris is one of the founders of Hivewire, along with Eric Merritt, also a co-founder of Zygote. Chris is also behind the ever popular "Dancing Baby", Dork, Posette, Victoria, and Michael.

Yes. I know.

My meaning was that the successful launch strategies for the Daz figures do not appear to have been transferred.

"Lets face it, no new character will ever take off at this point.

People complain that there are no new characters of any value, and as soon as a new one is released it is bashed to pieces before it can even take hold.

Lots of people wanted standardized versions on Antonia. How long did that last?

Then they wanted a weight mapped version of Antonia, Same deal...

People wanted a weight mapped V4, that didn't last much longer.... And there are more than a few versions now to boot.

I could go on and on, but the story is the same. The arm chair developers control what happens to a figure by what they post.

There are a lot of arm chair developers around that bash everything that appears, because it isn't "insert whatever". Some have never even downloaded it and admit that. Sort of ironic isn't it....

If anyone else thinks they can create the next big figure, best of luck.

You can give people exactly what they ask for, and they still complain about "insert whatever".

Been there, done that......... On many characters....

The only way to force a new characters reign, is to remove reverse compatability in the programs. We all know that wont happen any time soon. The arm chair developers would have a fit.... "

Well has not DAZ Done Exactly that with DS & "Genesis", after a fashion,??

DAZ IMHO Did exactly what the late Steve jobs did upon his return from exile back to apple many years ago.

He (Jobs) Killed the mac hardware clones to consolidate tight control over the perfect compatibility of Mac hardware and the Mac OS and saved the mac platform from certain oblivion.

Note how it was Apple Computer themselves who got serious and upgraded their aged OS9 ,that could not multitask or even address more than 999 megs of RAM!! , NOT some disparate dedicated, Idealistic,often fanatical third party group of mac partisans largely motivated by an Irrational hatred of Microsoft

Reading these threads I see so many people&factions placing their hopes on one
Saviour figure/Poser vender/Group Collective.. blah blah after another.while inexplicably ignoring the obvious Elephant in the room....SMITH MICRO.

Remember Steve Coopers Meandering blog post Explaining why SM will Not invest development time & Money in a figure they "Dont own"??( paraphrasing)

Well*(no offense to Blackhearted),* but how did the Ryan2Alison2 renovation playout?,
not much later we saw Cooper eat those brave words in the form of a Half hearted, shoe horned, hardware intensive, Kludge called DSON.

Until Smith Micro actually puts some serious Money & effort into some serious alternative figure tech to genesis that leverages every possible built in capability of the CURRENT VERSION of poser then all of these "Crowd sourced"figures will follow the exact same life cycle:

Prerelease Forum Hype: replete with ridiculous Forum signature banners.

Actual release: with the new figures(inevitably short lived), relevancy maintained by the near religious devotion of party disciples through forum posts& images of renders.

Frustration: as the great mass of unenlightened start the usual gripes about lack of content,morphs etc etc...this is the stage where the figure partisans "leadership" take on a more "Combative" approach to the Luddites resulting many locked threads followed by the Exodus of the leadership & "faithful" over to the enlightened safe haven of their own forums.

Resignation: Would be Conqueror of DAZ soon fades into obscurity and join the rest in the Ashbin of poser history while SM Still charges Hundreds for the next version of Poser Pro.

My website

YouTube Channel

Quote - Lets face it, no new character will ever take off at this point.

People complain that there are no new characters of any value, and as soon as a new one is released it is bashed to pieces before it can even take hold.

Lots of people wanted standardized versions on Antonia. How long did that last?

Then they wanted a weight mapped version of Antonia, Same deal...

People wanted a weight mapped V4, that didn't last much longer.... And there are more than a few versions now to boot.

I could go on and on, but the story is the same. The arm chair developers control what happens to a figure by what they post.

There are a lot of arm chair developers around that bash everything that appears, because it isn't "insert whatever". Some have never even downloaded it and admit that. Sort of ironic isn't it....

If anyone else thinks they can create the next big figure, best of luck.

You can give people exactly what they ask for, and they still complain about "insert whatever".

Been there, done that......... On many characters....

The only way to force a new characters reign, is to remove reverse compatability in the programs. We all know that wont happen any time soon. The arm chair developers would have a fit....

/Carry on......

You hit the nail on the head with this post. I have a feeling the same group of people would bad rap the second coming of Christ....."Oh look...he's wearing sandals!"

What is meant by reverse compatabilty? If you all don't mind me asking.

It means your car has a reverse gear :woot:
Nah, it means that something new is still compatible with the older version.

"It means your car has a reverse gear"

Excellent! No more drivin' around in circles!

"Nah, it means that something new is still compatible with the older version."

I see. So how far back would think a Poser Figure would need to be compatible?

Quote - "It means your car has a reverse gear"

Excellent! No more drivin' around in circles!

"Nah, it means that something new is still compatible with the older version."

I see. So how far back would think a Poser Figure would need to be compatible?

I believe a Poser figure dating back as far as Poser 1 will work in Poser 2014. On the ohter hand, that compatibility is one way. Poser 10 figures such as Roxie or Rex will not work in Poser 8 or lower. It may work in Poser 9, but there may also be some issues.

Reverse compatibility is forward compatibility - so new content being able to run on old versions of the software.

So giving up reverse compatibilty would mean new content only runs on new software.

Roxie and genesis are examples of this.

Backward compatibilty is the ability to read old content in new versions of the software (so the opposite)

wolf359, that isn't even an accurate paraphrasing of SM's reasons to not directly support 3rd Party Systems.

The relevant quote is (bold emphasis mine)

Many ideas, even some of the interesting ones, come with a consequence, and sometimes those consequences are too dear to accept. This is the case with fully adopting the new Genesis system from Daz. There are some good features in their new system, and those that make sense to us, are supported in a way that would benefit not just Daz, but the whole ecosystem of content developers. Those that do not fit within our strategy of an open system, free from dependencies on technologies that are beyond our control, aren’t in synch with our long term goals for growing Poser. Directly supporting the Genesis system does not meet those needs. However, doing our best to support the features that Genesis can provide to all Poser users is clearly beneficial.

Blog entry is here: http://blog.smithmicro.com/2011/08/11/poser-3d/support-for-3rd-party-character-systems-in-poser/

That, to me, seems to say that SM recognizes and agrees with some of the Genesis features, in those features are positive for users and content developers, but they would be more inclined to produce similar features without adopting the DSON/Genesis specifications, directly. Neither SM's development cycle (or sales approach) is the same as DAZ' and that in itself would cause lots of problems. DAZ can run a constant public beta version of DS indefinately and change features or specifications every other week if they wanted to. This would cause pressure to constantly keep up with those changes. Or if some code gets depreciated or altered in how it is used, then previous systems have to be scrapped or changed.

On the compatibility issue, wasn't there a fix where you could open up the cr2 or pp2 and change the version number.

As for Poser figures, what would you all say the best proportions are?

Quote - I think the scenario of DAZ buying Poser is highly unlikely.

A few days ago DAZ ran a huge sale on V4 and M4 stuff, calling it "cleaning house" or something like that. It could have been a sales tactic, but it made me worry. The discounts were good though, but I couldn't help wondering if they were serious about the cleaning house part of it, and if it meant that support for V4 and M4 would be discontinued any time soon.

If I was DAZ I would want Poser really really bad.

It's a spring cleaning sale for V4 n the 4's & Genesis.
DAZ might still sell V1,V2,V3 mesh but i can't find them.
but they still sell V1,V2,V3 stuff.
ya think they make any V1 ,V2 sells ?

Poser 4, V1. at some point ya half to let the past go.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - wolf359, that isn't even an accurate paraphrasing of SM's reasons to not directly support 3rd Party Systems.

The relevant quote is (bold emphasis mine)

Many ideas, even some of the interesting ones, come with a consequence, and sometimes those consequences are too dear to accept. This is the case with fully adopting the new Genesis system from Daz. There are some good features in their new system, and those that make sense to us, are supported in a way that would benefit not just Daz, but the whole ecosystem of content developers. Those that do not fit within our strategy of an open system, free from dependencies on technologies that are beyond our control, aren’t in synch with our long term goals for growing Poser. Directly supporting the Genesis system does not meet those needs. However, doing our best to support the features that Genesis can provide to all Poser users is clearly beneficial.

Blog entry is here: http://blog.smithmicro.com/2011/08/11/poser-3d/support-for-3rd-party-character-systems-in-poser/

That, to me, seems to say that SM recognizes and agrees with some of the Genesis features, in those features are positive for users and content developers, but they would be more inclined to produce similar features without adopting the DSON/Genesis specifications, directly. Neither SM's development cycle (or sales approach) is the same as DAZ' and that in itself would cause lots of problems. DAZ can run a constant public beta version of DS indefinately and change features or specifications every other week if they wanted to. This would cause pressure to constantly keep up with those changes. Or if some code gets depreciated or altered in how it is used, then previous systems have to be scrapped or changed.

I think you missed the point of the wolf's point. He's not saying "SM implement Genesis", he's saying "Why hasn't anyone taken SM to task for not supplying better figures so there's no reliance on 3rd parties?" He brings up the point of customers lining up behind 3rd party figures that ended up failing in the marketplace, but no one wants to speak of how SM should be leading the way so there aren't the endless threads of bashing and app wars. It seems no one wants to speak of that obvious point, the discussion always steers toward an outside company and away from SM leading the charge.

So..SM basically wants to keep Poser open so more people can develop figures that end up unsupported within months instead of supporting the new major platforms fully? Since they cannot provide a decent first party alternative that is sustainable, this pattern will continue? Haven't they learned by now? Now they are backing Dawn. Where? Where is the support? Just saying so and doing so are two different things. This does not sound like long term growth to me. I am just frustrated because this business plan does not work. If supporting a 3rd party figure, they need to play a more active role to ensure that it showcases Posers abilities.

With regards to DS, it is not only a constant public beta. It also has a stable release that is updated frequently. The beta is the platform to test those updates before it is integrated. Updates are expected these days, just like most apps and games I own. I don't go around calling them all beta's just because a new update is available in a month or even a week. This is common practice by todays standards with software frequently being updated to keep up with current advances.

My Renderosity Store

moriador : Poser really has been bought and sold more then any other CGI Software.
and I really do wish a CGI company any of them DAZ, HiveWire3d ,MAX ,LW ,Blender ,zBrush etc etc would buy Poser.

Maevryn : Don't you know sandles are a sin ;)

patorak3d : I like V5 Super Model best.
Poser10 ,Pro 14. first version to have SubD's.
Can't tell you what you alt to do about Reverse compatibility.
but I would ask myself ,Why are they still using a old Poser.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

@M3dia

I didn't say that Wolf said for SM to Implement Genesis. I said that the original quote is not simply about SM "investing development time and money" and there's more to it than that. There are more angles to look at concerning their reservations.

SM presented Roxie and Rex. For reasons we can all list, they weren't adopted by the bulk of users, at least not the bulk of forum going users or those that spend money in the marketplaces that we can gauge. There's more angles to that as well. For all we know, they are used by businesses and schools that purchased Poser and other areas we have no knowledge of. Also, for all we know, users have emailed SM their feelings on the figures, and they are weighing in that criticism. Or do you mean taking them to task where it can publicly be seen by all?

DAZ has no responsibility at all to provide native working Poser figures. They want to provide native figures for their application and offer some means to have Genesis in Poser. DAZ has gradually moved from a Poser content developer to having their own system and figure for that system. I don't have a single issue with that, so you're not getting any argument from me on it.

@Zev0

You can speculate whatever you'd like from the blog post.

I didn't say that DS didn't have a stable release. Don't be so touchy. I simply was trying to illustrate that the two companies do things differently and are not in sync with each others development cycles. However, if some new or altered feature was prominent in a beta release or a product called for using a beta version (this has happened), then there could be pressure there if Poser natively used DS tech.

I don't know specifically what these companies are doing, their internal long-term goals and I'm not on their board of directors. Nor is anyone else here, to the best of my knowledge. We are all speculating and I thought generally just having a kind of "coffee chat" over why Dawn doesn't rule and so on. Noone should get all a flutter over it.

Quote - I think the scenario of DAZ buying Poser is highly unlikely.

A few days ago DAZ ran a huge sale on V4 and M4 stuff, calling it "cleaning house" or something like that. It could have been a sales tactic, but it made me worry. The discounts were good though, but I couldn't help wondering if they were serious about the cleaning house part of it, and if it meant that support for V4 and M4 would be discontinued any time soon.

A Daz team member assured us that the cleaning was nothing more then a sale name and not an actual removal of the items from the store. As they still have older stuff for the previous generations for sale I do not see them getting rid of the products anytime soon. But I did whittle down my wishlist from the store though, making progress feels great. lol

I just got Dawn's base figure recently, mainly because I am a doofus and failed to realize that Studio could run the figure even if I did not have an updated version of Poser to do so. But she seems decent enough, and from what I am seeing there are some good products including some great freebies, being released for her and the character sets are getting better. No disrespect intended.

At the time though I have not really used her much, been buying up my gen 4 wishlist stuff, working on upgrading to Gen 2 male, and needing to upgrade my Poser so she is falling back on my priority list.

There is just too much going on now, it was a ton easier when we didn't have to scatter our resources so much.

Hopefully she gains ground and starts to make a difference in the community.

Allow this reaction.

DAZ left Poser compatibility in their own free will.

Poser (SM) released a new Poser version while the figures (Rex and Roxie) where not finished.

DAWN tried to fill the gap with a hype of being compatible with both apps.

Unfortuantely:
DAWN was not ready at her release either.
Basically being a DS figure, she has a ton of internal Poser issues left in her cr2.
And the overly STRONG texture did not help either.

Then unfortunately again, the Dawn creators failed to make her popular before they started to think in dollars leading DAWN into guaranteed failure.

So?
basically, we have SM fixing Rex and Roxie in an SR

We have DAZ Genesis that need a factory hack (DSON) to get going in Poser at 50%

And we have DAWN that drives on a completely failed release..............

And then, the most stupid mistake? The horse.

Instead of saturating the free stuff area's to try to make DAWN popular?
They release a horce. To pay for !!!!

Completely beyond human comprehention.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I have nothing against their horse, however I feel Hivewire should have focused that energy on Dawn, bringing her up to scratch and addressing key issues that would have given her some kind of push. Their focus needed to be more streamlined.

My Renderosity Store

@ Zev0

Completely agree.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - And we have DAWN that drives on a completely failed release..............

And then, the most stupid mistake? The horse.

Instead of saturating the free stuff area's to try to make DAWN popular?
They release a horce. To pay for !!!!

I don't think any business that wants to stay in business does so by giving out lots of freebies. Their employees need to be paid for the work. What does keep them is business is providing content people are willing to pay for. You have to get content developers on board to provide support for the figure that people will pay for. Vendors won't work for free, they have bills to pay and they are the ones that ultimately keep the figure alive in return from sales from customers.

If a business just kept putting out freebies instead of selling items, it will quickly burn through any cash reserves and go out of business when the bills and employees can't be paid. They have to keep business coming in to offset the cost of any freebies they give out.

Vendors will only create for your figure, if YOU make your figure popular enough.
If YOU, as the creator, fail to make YOUR figure popular?
Forget it.

If YOU fail to make YOUR figure popular?
You will not need the cash reserves at all.
YOU are dead at birth.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Sure, Hivewire could have done this or that better. It's easy for us, sitting in our living rooms, to criticize retrospectively. :D

Not having their sales information, and not knowing their business strategy, declaring Dawn a "failure" is a bit premature. Sure, you can say that the support from vendors in other MP's has pretty much vanished, but that's assuming the support was there in the first place. I don't think it was. From what I can tell, most vendor support was related directly to her release, not a commitment to continue that support.

In any case, Hivewire's main goal initially might have been simply to get enough dedicated core users that they could survive. 1000 people who spend $20 - $50 a month, every month, could be enough to keep a fledgling business going while more customers trickle in. If they succeeded in getting enough dedicated customers, then they weren't a failure and Dawn wasn't a failure. We simply don't know what their goals were, and as a result, it's unfair to judge.

They don't need everyone at the Rendo forums to be going wild over their products -- it's not like a forum post from an armchair business analyst is going to make an iota of difference to them. :D

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

A figure is popular by its merits. If customers and vendors see them, then it will be used and content created. I don't think you're able to see whether a figure itself is of merit by just distributing freebies.

Often, I feel a good (and tried and true) strategy is to offer the core figure for free and then do pay-for addons with a good mix of freebies in there.

This worked for V4, works for Genesis and Dawn. It works for my little toon guys.

Roxie is, in part, a harder sell because you must have Poser 10 or 2014. There is no option outside of the core program for P9 users to get her or whatnot. Personally I would have offered her in some way outside of P10, even if you had to bake a single subdivision on the mesh and morphs. A free, core, try before you buy version of the figure would also be welcome.

Just my opinion.

Quote - Often, I feel a good (and tried and true) strategy is to offer the core figure for free and then do pay-for addons with a good mix of freebies in there.

This worked for V4, works for Genesis and Dawn. It works for my little toon guys.

Roxie is, in part, a harder sell because you must have Poser 10 or 2014. There is no option outside of the core program for P9 users to get her or whatnot. Personally I would have offered her in some way outside of P10, even if you had to bake a single subdivision on the mesh and morphs. A free, core, try before you buy version of the figure would also be welcome.

Just my opinion.

True. On the other hand, they got me to buy Poser 10, just to get the figures, cuz I missed the sale on PP2014 (I have it now, from the upgrade sale).

I may not be a typical customer, in that regard. But there may be enough like me to justify their strategy. It's impossible to really know what the vast unknown universe of customers who don't post in forums are doing.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

"patorak3d : I like V5 Super Model best.
Poser10 ,Pro 14. first version to have SubD's.
Can't tell you what you alt to do about Reverse compatibility.
but I would ask myself ,Why are they still using a old Poser."

How do you like Pro14, so far?

BTW, what are the key issues with Dawn?

Quote - "patorak3d : I like V5 Super Model best.
Poser10 ,Pro 14. first version to have SubD's.
Can't tell you what you alt to do about Reverse compatibility.
but I would ask myself ,Why are they still using a old Poser."

How do you like Pro14, so far?

BTW, what are the key issues with Dawn?

vilters is the one that has issues with Dawn.
I have no issues with Dawn.

Just need 10 to render characters.

You need Pro 14 to make characters.
Pro 14 & D/S Pro 4 are rather primative compared to C4D ,Max etc etc
There about 10 years behind in tech.
So if you aim to make characters in them expect to cuss a lot.
They support displacement maps. do not support vector maps.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

What about why a character makes it or not is.
standing behind your character.
suporting ya character.
if the creater leaves ,why would anyone else stay ?

quads,tri's,desent polycount ,free ,for sell,good topology for muscles ,Morphs,content creaters support etc etc.
All good arguements .so lets see if we can punch holes in them.

V3 had tri's she made it.Scratch Tri's out.

V3,V4 had a ridiculous polycount .Scratch polycount out.

Maximus was free and had a lot of morphs.
Never see a render with him in it.
D/S Pro 4 is free but we still buy Poser.
Blender is Free and can do a 1000 more things then
DAZ Poser can do but we still buy Poser.
Scratch free out.

good topology for muscles.
ya can make a 3000 polycount game mesh
look like arnold schwarzenegger with normal maps.
just imagin what ya can do with displacment maps.
Scratch topology out.

content creaters support.
it's how alot judge if a character is popular or not.
and would be very helpful to your cause.
I hate to but I half to agree content creaters support is important.
Never a good thing to be dependent on strangers.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"You need Pro 14 to make characters.
Pro 14 & D/S Pro 4 are rather primative compared to C4D ,Max etc etc
There about 10 years behind in tech.
So if you aim to make characters in them expect to cuss a lot.
They support displacement maps. do not support vector maps."

Poser is ten years behind, but it is solid when it comes to the basics. I'll check out SM tomorrow.

You're over simplifying. It's isn't all cut and dry like that.

Poser and DS, for the most part, are animation and figure posing tools. Though you can rig, morph, and other things with them. Poser Pro 2014 at full price is 1/7 the cost of Max, 1/8 the cost of C4D, if you get the versions with all features. Plus those higher end programs are also meant for other purposes like modeling.

When it comes to companies, free is usually not really free. There are exceptions but they are usually lead-ins. I'm talking very very generally here, not about "movements" such as open source.

DS is free but it is a lead in, where revenue is generated in content, plugins and so on.

Figures that are free often lead back to content that at least minimally supports them.

Freebies are great. I love freebies. I make freebies and love sharing them and seeing folks use them. But revenue has to be generated somewhere, somehow or it isn't sustainable. Even those making freeware and so on are getting donations (or kickstarters) or do it in their spare time or perhaps are independently wealthy, for all I know :)

Quote - You're over simplifying. It's isn't all cut and dry like that.

Poser and DS, for the most part, are animation and figure posing tools. Though you can rig, morph, and other things with them. Poser Pro 2014 at full price is 1/7 the cost of Max, 1/8 the cost of C4D, if you get the versions with all features. Plus those higher end programs are also meant for other purposes like modeling.

When it comes to companies, free is usually not really free. There are exceptions but they are usually lead-ins. I'm talking very very generally here, not about "movements" such as open source.

DS is free but it is a lead in, where revenue is generated in content, plugins and so on.

Figures that are free often lead back to content that at least minimally supports them.

Freebies are great. I love freebies. I make freebies and love sharing them and seeing folks use them. But revenue has to be generated somewhere, somehow or it isn't sustainable. Even those making freeware and so on are getting donations (or kickstarters) or do it in their spare time or perhaps are independently wealthy, for all I know :)

Your mixing 2 diffrent post of mine togeather.

from one post.
DAZ,Blender is free but we still buy Poser.

from another post.
patorak3d asked how I liked Pro 14.
I just explained not to expect top of the line character creation tools.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Haven't been following this thread properly, so bear in mind there's a lot I haven't read yet, but just wanted to say that my opinion is that Smith Micro need to look after the vendor.

By that, I mean they need to supply an official content developer guide for Poser, something that will allow a potential content developer to pick it up, be able to read through the various technologies in Poser, examples of how to use them, and be able to come to educated decisions on how they'd like to go about something based on what they learned.

From there, the vendor is in the best position possible to create the best possible content for Poser.

The chain is this: SmithMicro>Vendor>Customer, so in order for it to work smoothly back up that chain, the vendor (the one stuck in the middle of it all) needs a smooth time of it or they simply won't bother (and that's the problem Poser faces). The vendor will likely look to DAZ instead, so that's where the products are going. That's basically what's happening (in my opinion).

Poser has good figure technology, it lacks for nothing, really, in that respect, but they need to ensure the people responsible for creating the content (the vendors) are provided with what they need to do the best job possible. Poser is full of tech, trouble is it's a nightmare peicing it all together because there is no content developers guide.

It's kinda like a game engine developer expecting a game developer to embrace their engine if there is no support documentation for it. From a logical and technical point of view, it's every bit as obvious as it sounds:

No documentation = uneducated vendor = poor outcome.
Good documentation = educated vendor = better outcome.

And again, what does what Smith Micro does or does not do, have to do with Dawn?

There are several content creation tutorials available on Smith Micro's website. They also have a YouTube channel with videos ranging from short lessons to 1-2 hr long webinars showing how to use Poser and all its latest features. Between these resources and the included reference manual, this is how I learned to create content for Poser P7 up to 2014. There are also several 3rd party resources online ranging in topics. Granted, a wiki would be good but it's not 100% necessary. If you only have P10 then a lot of the newest content creation methods are unavailable to you, so most of what you're able to do is legacy-based features.

Anyway, how about we get off the topic of Smith Micro except where it deals specifically with Dawn.

~Shane

"And again, what does what Smith Micro does or does not do, have to do with Dawn?"

Well, quite a lot when they start offering her in bundles with Poser!

As I read it, the thread is about what happened to Dawn's Fire. I just gave my opinion of what happened to Dawn's Fire: If anything she's suffering the same fate as everything else that is aimed at Poser but is not Vickie related.

The same fate will continue for all vendors no matter what is released until a solid foundation for creating quality content is provided to the vendor. Documentation dotted around the web, and videos dotted around YouTube, doesn't constitite an official developers guide.

A content developers guide is something you expect to exist by default, something you can pick up, read, and reference absolutely anything you need to regarding the technology used in the product you're vending for. No such "official" guide exists for Poser content developers, so the situation is only going to get worse if they don't sort it out.

And what does Dawn's success have to do with all this if she's created by a skilled developer?

The success of ventures like Dawn don't just rely upon the skill of the developer. Dawn has probably the best guy behind her from a developer point of view, but if she's targeted towards something that the general userbase sees as pointless, she's not going to do well. People generally aren't going to invest in something that is seen to be unpopular.

And that's the thing, every figure that is not Vicky is effectively unpopular in comparison to her. That popularity is never going to shift in SmithMicro's favour unless they sort the vendor situation out. And one thing I can say with absolute 100% certaintly is that it's never going to happen until the vendors are in a position to make that happen.

They're never going to be in a position to make that happen until the vendors have a complete developers guide to work from. Like I said, it's like a game engine developer expecting game developers to embrace and do well with their engine, and all without official developer documentation. Sorry, but it isn't going to happen.

In effect, Poser is the engine and vendors are the game developers, and without that sort of documentation, we're pretty much screwed (and so it the program as a result) because the program's success depends on good quality content.

As Shane said : Your last anwer is again completely unrelated to DAWN.

As for a developpers guide?

I have Blender, Poser, ten fingers and a brain; Nothing more is required.

Unlike you I have PP2014, so I do have some extra tools available.
But? ? All can be done in Poser 7,8,9,10 also.
Most high quality content creators are still on Poser7 because they want their products to be backwards compatible.

Like most, I also started with nothing and a gazillion questions.
But I started.

What figure we build for?
Who cares?
That is every individuals choice and completey unrelated to DAWN or any other figure around.

I like dark hair, others like blond hair. Some like thin breasts, others like large breasts.
That what makes us all different.

The main issue is? Start building, and stop ranting and bashing, it serves NO purpose at all.

Again, as Shane said:

Blender (I take Blender as an example as it is free) has a TON of tutorials and even complete tutorial series on youtube.

SM has cataloged, written, and video tutorials, on their own site and on youtube.

All one has to do is have some good will, sit down, read and look. (And nip on your tea or coffee)

Every negative minute of your complaining is "lost time".

Clothes? Want a tutorial on clothes?
I found 15 completely different ways to make clothes.

I even build dynamic clothes inside Poser without ever leaving Poser.
But? That requires "thinking outside of the box."

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3903852&ebot_calc_page#message_3903852

Check the above, for a brainfart of mine in 2012. LOL.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Back in 2006 I wrote this for Poser 5 using the most elementary of 3D apps ; anim8or

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2676905

So now you tell me how hard, or easy it is to stack 15 cubes, cut some holes, and end with a dynamic dress.

This little tutorial of mine, however basic it was, got a whole generation of dynamic clothing builders started. BACK in 2006

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

pumeco rtfm and learn; instead of complaining that you don't have access to info.

Personally, I like and use Dawn. I find her easy to use and except for the ghost bones easy to develope for. Does she need more support to conquor the market? Yeppers. Remember that there is no "best" figure to use in ANY software. It's what you choose to do with it that matters.

Those that can, do. Those that want to learn, study. Those that whine, get ignored.

What are Dawn's ghost bones for?

You both sound like you're picking arguments.

@Vilters
I know more about business and marketing than you'd ever be capable of comprehending. Shane's comment doesn't mean I wasn't talking relevant, it means he wasn't aware I was talking relevant. I've since pointed out why it was (and is) relevant.

Whether you agree with me has no bearing on how relevant it remains, and I had no idea that my opinion had to be validated by everyone that has the potential to read it. You think I'm wrong, I know I'm right, that's good enough for me.

@Parkdalegardener
Perhaps I need to explain it a little better for you, I'll give it a go while avoiding the ignorant tone you seem to enjoy using.

I have no problem learning stuff, I enjoy learning. The point is there is no official Poser content developer documentation to learn. You also need to understand the difference between whining about something and pointing something out. I was not whining. I was pointing something out that is missing and is required. The requirement is not unique to Poser, it applies to anything where a third party is expected to create content for another companies product.

Vendors aren't mind readers, programmers aren't mind readers. A vendor should not be expected to develop content for Poser without adequate developer documentation, any more than a person new to machine code would be expected to know how to program a device without the documentation for it.

Scenario for you:

DAZ = No official content development guide.
SmithMicro = No official content development guide.

It's not as important in DAZ's case because DAZ already have something to draw the users, they have Victoria. SmithMicro have no Victoria. And because they have no Victoria, they have less of an attraction in the field of "content", because "content", for the most part, revolves around the users most used figure.

Dawn, no mater how good she is, is just another figure when she's aimed at a program where the content is centered around a figure produced by a competing company. This isn't rocket science, it's not the sort of thing a company should even have to discuss. It's something that is blazingly obvious, and until they rectify that, actions like bundling Dawn with Poser is effectively pissing into the wind.

Like I said, I like the idea of Dawn, I think the logic behind her is "good business", but she's been dropped into an unwelcoming community, and the reason it's unwelcoming is for the same reason time and time again:

It's because she's not Vickie.

"Poser really has been bought and sold more then any other CGI Software.and I really do wish a CGI company any of them DAZ, HiveWire3d ,MAX ,LW ,Blender ,zBrush etc etc would buy Poser."

Why would any of the above buy poser??..... I cant comment about "Hivewire" as they are unknown to me, however in the case of Autodesk I dont see poser as adding any value to their brand as they are a professional CG production entity geared towards Film& Games.
And they already have their OWN poser like character creator that produces a variety of characters in the NATIVE Autodesk formats
http://area.autodesk.com/products/charactergenerator

Newtek?? Well they produce a full CG Creative Suite with its own set of character creation and auto rigging tools and if a LW user needs a premade rigged character in a pinch there are many online services such as this one:
https://www.mixamo.com/c/free-3d-characters
that offer premade characters in a compatible format.

Zbrush?? Again a high end model CREATION Suite that has special& powerful tools for Creating CG characters, not loading and rendering ready made content( ie.poser figures)

Blender is an Open source project poser is $Commercial Software$.

DAZ?... they dont need poser...period.
They have there own tightly integrated native figure system,content market,vendor pool,and posing and rendering app.

My website

YouTube Channel

Pumeco: "Pointing out" is something one does ONCE.
Completely different from saturating and polluting each and every tread with SM ranting and bashing.

RTM, Read The Manual, starting at page 1.
Read the tutorials available.

Sorry chap, that's the last word spend on you.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Dawn was a good lesson for content creators. Those who chased the "ultimate figure" were disappointed and have, one by one, returned to developing for a more mainstream model. At this point it is a relatively minor annoyance to verify that an item is not "for dawn" prior to purchasing. Neither fish, nor fowl, she has extremely limited potential ... regardless of her pedigree.

If one designs and manufactures accessories exclusively for Trabants or Wartburgs, one should not be surprised that the market is rather limited.

Klebnor

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device. Beige horizontal case. I don't display my unit.

On the other hand, I think the horse was a good move. Some people are completely irrational about animals (myself included), and Hivewire is not only a Dawn shop, but is also strong on nature content, with the plants and the birds they already sell. Apparently the horse contains an amazing amount of Dawn mesh as well.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

Quote - Vendors aren't mind readers, programmers aren't mind readers. A vendor should not be expected to develop content for Poser without adequate developer documentation, any more than a person new to machine code would be expected to know how to program a device without the documentation for it.

Scenario for you:

DAZ = No official content development guide.
SmithMicro = No official content development guide.

I don't understand. You're saying that vendors aren't making content for Dawn because they don't have a developer's guide, so they can't make content because they don't know how?

How are they making content then?

If they are a vendor, then they are making content. They already know how. That's a given.

If you're saying that YOU aren't making content for Dawn because you don't know how, that's different. But please say so. Don't generalize to all vendors because it doesn't make sense.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Also, Smith Micro is NOT a content developer.

Quote - Also, Smith Micro is NOT a content developer.

I am not even sure, that Smith Micro the company even knows that they own Poser... The Company is about: "Connect. Control. Capitalize. Helping you survive in a mobile world." (from their website www.smithmicro.com). If you check their last financial report/conference call, you can see that ALL of their consumer software and graphics stuff combined accounts for only ~19% of their revenue (on the bright side it is the only part that did not crash and burn last quarter...). Poser is only a small item in that category.

@Moriador
No, that's not what I meant, or said.

What "we" all mean, is that "we" all know how to make content.

And that some new content creators are doing a pretty fine job at it too.

And?
They think in a positive and creative way, ask productive, and the right questions.

They do not look for problems, oh no, but search for solutions, and seem to find them pretty-pretty easy.

And "we" old timers, help wherever we can.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

This may have been mentioned before but when Dawn came out there was already this rush to move on to the Genesis figure as well and some customers were left bitter and confused by it all. Both introductions seemed rushed to me, almost as if they had to see who could bait the larger part of the customer base, though in that aspect Genesis did have the home field advantage.

From the standpoint of someone who was not sold on just one figure or the other at first the Daz line seemed more complete and supported then Dawn herself did. I did not know what was going to happen on either side, but as time went on it seemed Dawn's cycle of support kind of withered away while Genesis continued to get its fans and cheerleaders.

Hivewire seems to have some talented modelers, I don't believe that they are not a force to be reckoned with.

Quote - This may have been mentioned before but when Dawn came out there was already this rush to move on to the Genesis figure as well and some customers were left bitter and confused by it all. Both introductions seemed rushed to me, almost as if they had to see who could bait the larger part of the customer base, though in that aspect Genesis did have the home field advantage.

From the standpoint of someone who was not sold on just one figure or the other at first the Daz line seemed more complete and supported then Dawn herself did. I did not know what was going to happen on either side, but as time went on it seemed Dawn's cycle of support kind of withered away while Genesis continued to get its fans and cheerleaders.

Hivewire seems to have some talented modelers, I don't believe that they are not a force to be reckoned with.

I haven't seen support for Dawn "wither" away, but I imagine that with the big build up Dawn received, and the excitement around her, some people have been somewhat disillusioned that she wasn't the Genesis killer a lot of people wanted her to be. But I still see the main brokerages selling things for Dawn, well, all except DAZ, of course. And a number iof the people who used to post here in support of Dawn have migrated over to the Hivewire forums. They still come here occasionally, but for the most part, I see them over there, happily supporting their favorite figure. So if you think support has "withered away", I just don't see it.

@Vilters
I'm well aware of what you mean, trouble is, you obviously don't grasp what I mean.

Telling me that old timers at Poser do fine, is fine, if you're an old timer at Poser. With a statement like that, then, surely you must also understand that the current "content" situation (and that includes Dawn), is the result of the way things are.

Do you think that the potential Poser vendors out there would be harmed by having a full-on guide on how to develop content for Poser, with every type of technology it contains, fully documented and demonstrated?

It doesn't matter what way you look at it, one thing you can be sure of is that the way things are, is a direct result of the way things have been handled so far. This thread, and the endless others like it, exist for one reason: it's because the way it's being handled so far, is not working.

The reason it's not working is because Victoria has the monopoly. Victoria has the monopoly !!!>>>because<<<!!! there is nothing on the Poser side to compete with her in popularity. The reason there is nothing on the Poser side to compete, is because content makers are generally not interested in supporting something that is not as popular as the "other" option they have.

Like it or not, Victoria is what makes DS a success, it's not DS that makes DS a success. It's exactly like I pointed out in a thread a long time ago; Smith Micro need their own "Mascot Girl", their Victoria equivalent. It's vital they have something like that, because content revolves around a users most used figure.

Therefore, it's bad news that Poser users most used figure, is produced by a competing company. I really don't know how to make that any clearer!

There's nothing wrong with Dawn in concept, nothing at all. The mistake is that they promoted her without an effective backup campaign to go along with it. I mean for crying out loud, people are complaining there were no morphs for her!

Such ill thought-out campaigns are destined to failure. So there you go, Vilters, either try to understand what I'm explaining here, or please stick to what you said earlier; that you'll not be wasting your words on me.

Any more nonsense from you and I'm telling Roxie!

Quote - > Quote - This may have been mentioned before but when Dawn came out there was already this rush to move on to the Genesis figure as well and some customers were left bitter and confused by it all. Both introductions seemed rushed to me, almost as if they had to see who could bait the larger part of the customer base, though in that aspect Genesis did have the home field advantage.

From the standpoint of someone who was not sold on just one figure or the other at first the Daz line seemed more complete and supported then Dawn herself did. I did not know what was going to happen on either side, but as time went on it seemed Dawn's cycle of support kind of withered away while Genesis continued to get its fans and cheerleaders.

Hivewire seems to have some talented modelers, I don't believe that they are not a force to be reckoned with.

I haven't seen support for Dawn "wither" away, but I imagine that with the big build up Dawn received, and the excitement around her, some people have been somewhat disillusioned that she wasn't the Genesis killer a lot of people wanted her to be. But I still see the main brokerages selling things for Dawn, well, all except DAZ, of course. And a number iof the people who used to post here in support of Dawn have migrated over to the Hivewire forums. They still come here occasionally, but for the most part, I see them over there, happily supporting their favorite figure. So if you think support has "withered away", I just don't see it.

I see.

I've seen some things pop up for Dawn, the new products here and at another store were what made me decide to look into her a little more then before, and I was probably disillusioned as well by the same fact that you posted. Being a newer customer for this figure I haven't been so involved with her community so I did not realize that a number of her supporters moved to hivewire. I just remember her coming out strong and then things kind of calmed down on her behalf.

One thing that peaked my interest was the talk of the male counterpart. I hope that is still a possibility and I am really interested to see how he looks. :)

Quote - I see.

I've seen some things pop up for Dawn, the new products here and at another store were what made me decide to look into her a little more then before, and I was probably disillusioned as well by the same fact that you posted. Being a newer customer for this figure I haven't been so involved with her community so I did not realize that a number of her supporters moved to hivewire. I just remember her coming out strong and then things kind of calmed down on her behalf.

One thing that peaked my interest was the talk of the male counterpart. I hope that is still a possibility and I am really interested to see how he looks. :)

Chris Creek is currently working on the Dusk figure. He's posted a few pics over on the Hivewire forum. He looks pretty good to me.

Quote - Chris Creek is currently working on the Dusk figure. He's posted a few pics over on the Hivewire forum. He looks pretty good to me.

Really, sweet! Thank you for letting me know I'm going to go have a look :)

They're going to call a male mesh, Dusk?
I mean I get it, from Dawn until Dusk, but still :biggrin:

I think that's the first time I smiled today, haha!

HighEnd app's buy plugs for there app's all the time.
Poser fussion is for Max, Maya, CINEMA 4D and LightWave.

Poser has never had a strong suported in house mesh no matter what none CGI company owned Poser.
That would change for sure if DAZ ,Hivewire bought them.
Autodesk boult Maya & Softimage and they didn't need eather one period.
zBrush makes the badest characters of all
,so if they had Poser you know we would have killer characters.
Vicky was made in LW ,Modo.
why would anyone objects to a open sourse Blender Poser.
Blender has some killer tools.

Anyone know what SmithMicro paid for Poser ?
Maybe we could buy Poser ourselves.
Harley Davidson was boult by their employees.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - HighEnd app's buy plugs for there app's all the time.
Poser fussion is for Max, Maya, CINEMA 4D and LightWave.

Poser has never had a strong suported in house mesh no matter what none CGI company owned Poser.
That would change for sure if DAZ ,Hivewire bought them.
Autodesk boult Maya & Softimage and they didn't need eather one period.
zBrush makes the badest characters of all
,so if they had Poser you know we would have killer characters.
Vicky was made in LW ,Modo.
why would anyone objects to a open sourse Blender Poser.
Blender has some killer tools.

Anyone know what SmithMicro paid for Poser ?
Maybe we could buy Poser ourselves.
Harley Davidson was boult by their employees.

Rorrkonn, while I do find that to be an interesting question, it has nothing to do with Dawn or this thread. My suggestion would be for you to start a new thread and ask the question again. Because if I answer it here, I have no doubt that what I or someone else would answer would quickly be considered as DAZ bashing and the thread would be locked.

"Anyone know what SmithMicro paid for Poser ?*
Maybe we could buy Poser ourselves."

Well I'm in if you are, RorrKonn, I could chip-in with a few thousand :lol:

Sorry Clarkie, didn't see your post.

You don't need a content manual in order to learn how to build content. This has been established. Vendors have been doing just fine without an official content construction manual for about as long as Poser has existed. That's why this forum exists, to ask questions on things where the user manual and other resources don't provide the best answers. I'm working on generating interest in a Poser wiki here for Renderosity where others can contribute their knowledge, but it takes a long time to compile that information.

Anyone with the patience and time to do the research can write their own content creation manual if they wanted. You don't need Smith Micro's permission. Chances are that by the time it's done the next version of Poser will be out and at least a third of the info you've compiled will be outdated. There was a book on all the "secrets" to content creation and rendering that had a few updated editions but it seems to have stopped around P8.

Many software companies do not write their own training manuals. They provide basic user manuals and rely on their user base to provide the more in-depth training. That's part of the vendor support for Poser. Many vendors create and sell their own tutorials, but they're all based on information that's freely available online and in the user manual if you just take the time to look for it.

There is no official word from Smith Micro or HiveWire on plans for Dawn to be bundled with Poser. At least none that I can find. There may be promotions here and there but that's not the same thing. That's just a promotion.

Dawn is not a failed figure. She's been the most successful 3rd party figure so far, aside from the DAZ figures. Content is still being made and sold for her. It may be a small portion of the market compared to others, but it is still there. One of the biggest reasons there aren't as many people using her or making content for her, as there are for V4, is because she requires P9+ to be useable in Poser, and a large percentage of Poser users are still using P5 - P8, which V4 is compatible with. Dawn is not compatible with those versions. So naturally she's not going to be as widely used. No figure will be, until the majority of P5 - P8 users upgrade to P9 or higher. Believe it or not there are still people using P4 with Gen 2 and 3 figures, with no intention of upgrading, or no means of doing so. I know because I get requests from them from time to time to do custom content, but I don't work in anything prior to P7, and they generally don't want to pay my rates anyway.

Any figures created that require P9+ in order to function are going to have a much smaller support system because they're not backwards compatible. And even if they were, why would anyone need to use them when they have Gen 3 & 4 figures that already function just fine in older versions of Poser and have plenty of content available already? The only real reason would be to have a new toy to play with.

Yes Poser definitely needs a figure that takes advantage of all the latest Poser tech and is designed with attention to detail, but that figure still won't be as popular because it will require the latest version of Poser, and Poser requires money to upgrade, while DS is always free. So at most, that figure will take a long time to gain traction even with a lot of people supporting it innitially. Much more time than the year or so that Dawn has been around I'm sure, because Dawn can be used in DS without requiring Poser. The catch to that is, more Dawn users are making content for her in Poser than in DS because DS has Genesis and really doesn't need a non-genesis figure. Poser's tech currently doesn't match DS tech in many aspects, so even there, that glorius new Poser figure will not be as versatile as a DS figure and will therefore be more complicated to build for, and more of a learning curve for the end user. Maybe P11/2016 will change that, but for now that is the way things are. It's very difficult to compete with free, when your product is not free. Anyone with a somewhat decent machine can start using DS and build content for Genesis 1 or 2 without ever having to buy a single piece of anything. The same can not be said for Poser or any of its figures.

As I see it, Dawn has done as well (if not better) as can be expected for any 3rd party figure, and it doesn't look like she's going away any time soon. I'm not a fan of Dawn myself, but I do like the new horse, and I plan to add it to my runtime and start building content for it as soon as I get the time to do so. At the moment I'm a bit more interested in the new Daz dragon as I have some specific ideas for it that haven't been done so far, that I can find.

Anyway, really - stop the arguing. I'm not going to keep saying it, I'll just start handing out warnings and suspensions. There's no reason this topic can't be discussed maturely without disrespecting each other or talking smack about other companies and their business practices.

~Shane

I honestly don't think Hivewire needs or wants to ship their figure with Poser. Why, when you can get it free online anyway? And they're already perceived as being too close to the Poser side of development anyway. By the way, Hivewire offers a service, I believe, to convert your Poser-specific product to DS and verse vysa.

@pumeco --- Content Creation:

Shane has already said a lot of this but...

The Poser Reference Manual does have the basics of turning an obj into a figure. In fact, it has entire section on it (Part 7 of the manual).

Often we old timers would de-construct existing content (read through it in a text editor or look at it in a treeview editor), experiment and figure things out.

Tools available are any decent text editor - a programmers' editor would be best. For treeview editors there is Poser File Editor by D3D, available here and the most robust option currently, Cr2 Builder, Cr2 Editor, Pz3edit by PhilC.

I use: Notepad++, Cr2 Builder and Poser File Editor. I like Cr2 Builder the best but it chokes on large files and weight-mapped figures.

Secrets of Figure Creation in Poser 5 was a very good source in the old days. I have it in paperback on my shelf. It is still a good read and a lot of it still applies but you have to read between the lines now as many of the "gotchas" have been fixed over the years.

I bought a disk from Philc MANY years ago what was also about figure creation and very, very useful.

Head over to YouTube and type in "poser rigging figures". You'll get a lot of valuable results.

Quote - As I see it, Dawn has done as well (if not better) as can be expected for any 3rd party figure, and it doesn't look like she's going away any time soon. I'm not a fan of Dawn myself, but I do like the new horse, and I plan to add it to my runtime and start building content for it as soon as I get the time to do so.

This (and the rest of your post) was what I aiming for, but you said it much, much better. :)

And the new horse does look good. I hope to get it before it goes off sale. New content for it would be very welcome indeed.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Does Dawn have the Poser standard gimbals?

Quote - Does Dawn have the Poser standard gimbals?

As far as I know, she does, but the gimbal system isn't Poser only.

"As far as I know, she does, but the gimbal system isn't Poser only."

Well said and thank you for reminding me.

As for the bone hierarchy, does Dawn have the left/right breast and/or left/right buttock?

Considering the obstacles Dawn faces, she has done well. I have done some checking in my runtimes.

I now have more characters/textures for Dawn than for any Poser G2 figure (Jessi, Sydney, Olivia etc), and I own just about every decent character that has been produced for them, and even resorted to making some myself because there were so few.

I finally have a reasonable set of morphs for Dawn, but to get them I had to buy several packages, some of them by third parties. It cost me quite a bit to get the morphs, because I snapped them up as soon as they appeared and didn't wait for sales. I still don't have a way of ageing Dawn effectively unless I make the morph myself. I can live with that.

My Dawn now has more clothes (most of them free) than Michelle. There are many pieces of clothing for her that I won't buy, because I have no use for them. But my Dawn is OK, she is dressed. As my mother would say: "Her ass is covered".

The two figures I own that have more textures and clothes than Dawn, are V3 and V4. That is not really a fair comparison, they have had a huge head start. Dawn hasn't taken over the world, but in terms of support she definitely has done better than Alyson2/Anastasia, Michelle, Cynthia or Angela. Roxie, bless her heart, is not even in the running. I am not sure how Dawn's success compares with Miki4, I don't really keep up with the Japanese Poser sites.

Overall, I would say that is not bad. I doubt whether any new figure will equal the Vickies again, the landscape has changed so much.

For the Poser user who doesn't want to use Vicky all the time, Dawn is a viable alternative.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

Quote - Rorrkonn, while I do find that to be an interesting question, it has nothing to do with Dawn or this thread. My suggestion would be for you to start a new thread and ask the question again. Because if I answer it here, I have no doubt that what I or someone else would answer would quickly be considered as DAZ bashing and the thread would be locked.

EClark1894: this is one of the most confusing responses I've ever gotten.
not sure how to respond.

I'm not sure why your telling me what's on topic on my thread.
I named ALL the app's why are we concentrating on just one ?
You want me to start a new thread so you can DAZ bash on that thread ?
I don't want it on any of my threads and Renderosity does not allowed it on any thread.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - "As far as I know, she does, but the gimbal system isn't Poser only."

Well said and thank you for reminding me.

As for the bone hierarchy, does Dawn have the left/right breast and/or left/right buttock?

No. Her breasts are part of Chest 2, her upper rear/lower back are part of Hip, and the more fleshy lower portion of her 'cheeks' are on Pelvis.

-----sig-----
Daz, Blender, Affinity, Substance, Unity, Python, C#

Quote - > Quote - Rorrkonn, while I do find that to be an interesting question, it has nothing to do with Dawn or this thread. My suggestion would be for you to start a new thread and ask the question again. Because if I answer it here, I have no doubt that what I or someone else would answer would quickly be considered as DAZ bashing and the thread would be locked.

EClark1894: this is one of the most confusing responses I've ever gotten.
not sure how to respond.

I'm not sure why your telling me what's on topic on my thread.
I named ALL the app's why are we concentrating on just one ?
You want me to start a new thread so you can DAZ bash on that thread ?
I don't want it on any of my threads and Renderosity does not allowed it on any thread.

Okay:

a) Yes, I know you started the thread, but the topic you chose was Dawn and her popularity.

b) I have no intention of bashing DAZ. I never do. However certain people in this forum... (You know what? Check your site mail for the rest of my answer.)

**
@Netherworks**
Cheers mate, I hear you on that (I even bought the same book)!

Anyway, after Shane's comment I've decided to stop wasting my time explaining things on sites like these. It's a bit like Wiz said about people not realising how damaging being a moderator can be to your health. I've never been a moderator, but I understand exactly what he means because it's no different when you try to explain stuff but constantly come-off as a trouble-causer. I sit here in absolute disbelief at some of the replies I get to my comments. And no offence, but I'm way too intelligent to be dealing with some of the answers I get here; sometimes I'm talking to people on a whole different level!

Well screw that, I've taken as much of that as I'm prepared to accept, and the only way to avoid having to deal with more of it, is to just leave 'em to it.

From now on I'll just sit back and laugh at the absolute chaos these two companies are creating between themselves. The only reason chaos like this exists in the first place, is because of the petty war games these two companies are using against each other regards the figure/content formats. The only ones that suffer as a result, are the customers, and when the customers complain, they get silenced.

That sort of crap is not acceptable to me, so in order to avoid further threats of being silenced for speaking facts, I'll leave it to the rest here. In other words, I'll voluntarily keep quiet, because I'm not the sort of guy to stand for having my voice silenced for speaking facts.

An official content developers guide is required for a product designed to be supported by content, and that's all there is to it.

I'm not wasting another second on that one. What these companies should be doing is fighting it out on the grounds of stability and giving users what they want in the program. They should be fighting each other with features designed to entice the users to their program, not scare them away. Instead, they're playing the format-war bullshit, and every one who uses either of these programs is suffering as a result.

If these companies don't like the complaints when a user can't get something working as a result of all this bull, then guess what, they need to sort their act out and stop creating these situations in the first place.

What they have here is a result of their own actions, it's the "user bashing" that needs to stop!

I don't use Dawn but I do think she has done well considering the difficulties that the figure had to overcome, many already outlined in this thread. I still have her in my runtime and hope that at some point in the future to be able to use her on a regular basis.

Having Poser 2014 and the cloth room the limited content for Dawn is not an issue for me but the lack of morphs is. The situation is changing slowly but it needs to reach a point, for me at least, where I can build a character that will hopefully look quite different from the base figure. I have yet to decide if the base Dawn is too strong a character to allow her to me modified as much as V4.

Of course it is unfair to compare a figure as new to the market as Dawn is with V4 who seems to have been here forever but I do need a little more convincing that she will get there in the end. For me she has started well but has not reached the point where I will invest time in her rather then V4WM but I hope it is just a matter of time.

My perspective on what snuffed the flames for myself.

I was excited about Dawn on her release, as it was a new figure to work with. I had my reservations about the HW3D crew, but pushed that aside.

Upon her release, I only had Poser 7, which I was taking her into Daz setting up the scene and exporting it back to poser as obj, applying textures in poser for rendering, and making dynamic clothing for.

They had my support until they extended their big contest. It may sound petty to some of you. But from my perspective, when I work hard on something with a very limited computer and spend money on content in which I normally don't need, and modelled out my own stuff for Dawn for the images I made, by the deadline of the contest using what was available and making it work. Which is what I am guessing was the "challenge" in the first place. Using a dino pc from 2002, Poser 7, Daz Studio 4.whatever version # at the time (which I had to take the time to figure out certain things), wings3d, I didn't get Poser 10 until I had 3 images left for the contest entry limit, which 3 were allowed for each site holding entries.

When they extended the contest, their reasoning was for mainly because the quality of the works already submitted, people wanted to use the morphs that were initially part of the prize pack and weren't even created yet. I am sure there was more reasonings that I am forgetting, but those were the two that miffed me.

The way I see it, is I just spent the past 2 months of my life doing this contest in the spare time I had, with my at then limited resources,when I could have been doing more productive things. and now upon the deadline the contest extending it because the above mentioned reasoning.

Also when stating the discontent with the situation to be met by responces which were in my eyes lacklusters from the vendors and the reps from HW3D. To pretty much getting torn apart by the supporters of the extenion because I expressed an opinion that conflicted their interest. And trust I was being as nice as my claws were allowing me to be.

Sure could have went with the fact that I could do more work for an extended number of entries per site holding the contest. Sure I could have, but why? At that point was when they lost my support on using their figure, any vendor which got snippy at me for posting my disatisfaction over the extenion, lost any future sale from myself.

I could have seen an extenion by a week or two, but not the whole cycle of the contest. The reasoning behind their extenion was weak in my opinion. It made me feel they didn't do as they expected in content sales for the contest, which I get the have a contest boosts sales angle, but if it doesn't pan out the way you dreamt up, learn from that mistake, but honor your initial conviction. The way it went showed me that their hype they were all about when trying to get Dawn popular was just a marketing angle to try and dethrone a past entity which they may have soured issues with. That single action speaks louder than the empty words of forum posts about patching a warring community. As many others have stated, their $ eyes were too big.

Who knows maybe I am the one wrong. Because how dare I speak my mind. But to give insight as from my perspective, that is why I don't use dawn at all, and is why I don't buy anything for Dawn or buy anything from their site. And is my reasoning to why Dawn's flame has been snuffed out of my content folders. Take it or leave it, it is just my perspective from my experience, and is not everyone's common experience.

"No. Her breasts are part of Chest 2, her upper rear/lower back are part of Hip, and the more fleshy lower portion of her 'cheeks' are on Pelvis."

Dawn's rigging sounds well thought out then.

"From now on I'll just sit back and laugh at the absolute chaos these two companies are creating between themselves. The only reason chaos like this exists in the first place, is because of the petty war games these two companies are using against each other regards the figure/content formats. "

Sorry Mate, but the above is quite an unfair characterization of both SM& DAZ inc.
if indeed there is any "chaos" in these online user forums over formats/figures it is due to people becoming too emotionally attached to a particular software package and the " tribal culture" surrounding it.
DAZ&SM has as much right to their Proprietary Formats as Autodesk ,Maxon, Newtek, SideFX et al.

Now we can engage park bench speculation about the business/market Wisdom of such proprietary Formats
but to call their product development& target market choices "Petty" is just plain wrong.

"The only ones that suffer as a result, are the customers, and when the customers complain, they get silenced."

the internet is a big place what's to stop one from writing a word press blog bleeting all about how company X wont
make their 3D content formats compatible with thier beloved software from company Z.

anyone with capable hardware and money can purchase
and use the latest version of poser

Anyone with capable hardware can Download the latest
build of the free Daz studio.

Access to all of the various formats is available to any consumer as an option...it is not however, a civil right.

My website

YouTube Channel

come on every one be nice and let it go .

we don't need to beat a dead horse endlessly.

we don't need to repeat the same thing a 1000 time.
when once will do.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

AmbientShade :

have a thought

If you keep deleting inflammatory post .

inflammatory posters would have no reason to post.
and eventually stop being so aggravating to you.

and we could all live in peace with out are post getting locked for another's actions.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

EClark1894 : Thanks for being so cool & trying your best to keep this thread from being locked.
It is sincerely appreciated.

mahakali : remind me to never have a contest for any of my meshes.
reminds me there where some mad over a zBrush contest .

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I really, really want a +1 or a like button for posts on this forum.

(No -1 or dislike or thumbs down because then the moderator has to spend half the time dealing with people complaining about unfair or retaliatory downratings.)

Back on topic. From a user's standpoint, default Dawn is a lot better than default V4. Now that I have PP 2014, I find that V4's clothing is pretty easy to convert to Dawn in the fitting room. I haven't tried converting textures yet. But I'd guess Dawn is a very usable figure with some decent advantages over V4. All she's missing is support, and I think that will come over time. I guess we'll see.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Have any Dawn threads here not ended in a lock?

lady-morana.deviantart.com

pumeco : When I was around 13 years old,there was a girl I liked that worked in this restaurant.
So i would set at a booth drink coke ,smoke cigs and draw comics.
It was cool but they had a sign on a wall that read.

"When two people argue ,which one is the fool"

I hated that sign.
I would fight anyone ,any time for any reason.
countless broke noses & concussions.
left arm broke twice.right wrist broke once.
I can walk not the spinal cord but I have had my back broke.
pelvic bone broke,busted kidney.
buy the time I was around 20 had very few teeth left.

I tore the sign down.but it would haunt my dreams in prison.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Uuuum....

Point of order here.

Poser doesn't -have- any new propietary file formats. CR2 is text. CRZ is zipped text. It doesn't handle a lot of the newer industry standard formats correctly, but it still has good compatibility with a lot of the older, persistent standards. Sure, I'd love pointcloud support; any animator would. And if we keep nagging, we may just get it.

There is no 'Vicky killer' for one simple reason. Vicky is a mesh. A resource. Nothing more. The original Victoria was next to unuseable until Traveler put out his morphs at Morphworld. Which stopped when some individuals wrapped them in their work and sold them without crediting the real creator.

So far as the g-thing is concerned, its creator has gone their own way. Sayonara. So it can be MacGuyvered into Poser; it doesn't work natively there. No heat there. Dawn is nothing but a resource, not the second coming of whatever. The V-things and assorted offshoots were never the second or first comings of anything. They were resources. Nothing more. They may have been hyped as something incredible, but that doesn't change the fact that if you copied their geometry file, changed the extension to .txt and hit print all you would get is a lot of pages of paper with matrix numbers on them. If I ever get good at rigging, I'll be converting all those old figures to Poser unimesh and wieghtmapping them. We still have more polys to play with than most games meshes, and a good percentage of pro level movie meshes.

Like anything, Dawn has pluses and big minuses. Not surprising for a 1.0 release. Constructive feedback is the only thing that will correct that. Note the first word of the previous sentence.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: So what happened to Dawn's fire ?

DAWN tried to fill the gap with a hype of being compatible with both apps.

Every negative minute of your complaining is "lost time".