What's Poser have to do with game making ?

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The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Poser has always been able to be used to render sprites for use in 2D game development.  I did a bit of that, as far back as 2002.

The upcoming Game Dev version of Poser Pro 2014 that has been announced will offer several useful tools for figure import and export, with FBX as well as COLLADA available as an export format.  I think there was mention of the Game Dev version being developed especially to work well with game development platforms like Unity.  This could be very useful for 3D game developers, to be able to create and animate a figure using Poser's tools, then export directly to a format the game engine can use.  I've tried a bunch of things over the years to integrate Poser into a 3D game development workflow, and previously it hasn't been easy.  :lol:  Poser's Game Dev version should make such things much more approachable.  One of these days I'll have to get around to trying that free version of Unity.  :unsure:

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Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

http://poser.smithmicro.com/gamedev.html

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Quote - http://poser.smithmicro.com/gamedev.html

The wireframe .jpg with a tri mesh that's been subDed.

it's not a correct topology SubD mesh.
it's not a correct topology game mesh.

What is that suspose to be for ?

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The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I kind of wonder if that mesh is meant to illustrate the Polygon Reduction system...?  :unsure:  I thought it was a strange mesh to use while advertising optimization for gaming.  Not quite sure what we're supposed to be seeing, when we look at the pomotional artwork.  Hmm.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

PP2014 Game Dev is gonna be a good version for Game builders.

Combining figures into one.
Example: You load a Figure, drag-drop-conform, some clothing over it, and then use the "combine" function to combine all these into a single rigged and posable figure.

Optional, you can use the polygon reduction tool to reduce the number of polygons.

This is also very useful for current Poser users to build easy manipulatable background figures, to reduce system load in populated scenes.

Then you "can" export to FBX or Colada, bake morphs and bake a new texture, to let Poser build game compatible "full" figures.

Figure+hair+clothing+shoes, all become one. 
Reduced in Polygons if required, baked morphs if required, and with a new texture if required.

These are some nice features for Game builders to prepare their figures using Poser content and the vast availability of hair and clothing support files available.

http://poser.smithmicro.com/gamedev.html

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

How is licencing for distributing the combined and reduced meshes going to work? Will there be a different EULA for users of the game dev version?

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

According to the page at Smith Micro,

Quote - "Poser Pro Game Dev includes a 5GB library of 3D characters, clothing, props and scene elements that you can export for delivery in your game."

This tells me that the 5GB of included content doesn't require a special license for game dev (good selling point), but you will need a separate game dev license from each vendor whose content you intend on using in your game, because only that vendor can decide whether their content is allowed to be used in games. 

For 2D games that only use sprites (2D animated images) the standard EULA should apply to most purchased content, since geometry and other assets can't be extracted from an image, and most commercial content allows the use in commercial products (animations, web comics, etc). In that case you would only be bound by the usage limits that come with whatever content you're using (ie: most free poser content generally doesn't allow for commercial use in 2D or 3D). 

At least, this is how I'm understanding it. 

 

 

Combining figures into one.
Example: You load a Figure, drag-drop-conform, some clothing over it, and then use the "combine" function to combine all these into a single rigged and posable figure.

Most call that boolean.would be nice if all the cgi app's called everthing the same thing.

boolean cloths hair shoes etc etc and have a easy ready made game mesh fast sounds good.
but to have a clean mesh and maps with out having to clean it up in Max will be a trick.

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http://poser.smithmicro.com/pproGameDev_specsheet_final_FULLRES.pdf

Do games even use dynamic hair,cloths ,Bullet Physics,weight map rigs ?

game developers see the .jpgs and read some of this stuff.
wounder what there think.

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for 3D games

would game makers buy ready to use out of the box game meshes from Poser ,
If there good sure.
animate them in Poser ,maybe.
all the reast I have my doubts.
I just don't get the felling that Poser has anyone working for them that actually makes and understands game making.

the ones using blender for games probably be interested but there not the spenders.
Unless Poser really delivers clean booleaned meshes with out any clean up.
Just don't see a lot of Maxers suport.

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - What's Poser have to do with game making ?

 

The original purpose of Poser was to replace the wooden artists' mannequin.  In time more features were added, and people began to use Poser for illustration and animation as well. 

This is just the natural evolution of Poser.  Many Poser artists are involved in aspects of creation, whether modding existing games, creating indie games, or even working on huge blockbusters professionally.

Poser has many of the same tools that are used in creating animated characters for games, but is also lacking in key features specific to doing this.  Adding those features to Poser not only makes the program useful to a wider audience, but also provides useful features to current users who may not yet be aware of when or why those features woud be useful.

Optimizing figures for use in games should also give the benefit of allowing us to have more figures in our current scenes, for example.  Or in the case of fewer figures we should also see faster rendering due to consolidation of materials/textures and removal of unseen geometry.

 

     I'll second Moogal, and elaborate a bit myself.

    RorrKonn, I don't play or make video games, but can you not see potential here, for "traditional" Poser use?

     Consider a scene where you want to populate Tink's Cafe'.  Imagine the RAM -and CPU cycles- you'll save by removing the underlying unseen polys of the filler dolls, combining doll/hair/shirt/pants/shoes into a single figure, and maybe decimating (reducing poly count) of the figure?  Wouldn't that be a boon to getting a heavy Poser scene rendered?  Imagine how much more manageable your hierarchy menu will be for twelve (fully dressed) background dolls, too.

     Do you have the time and skill to hand pose and keyframe a doll's animation sequence?  No?  Then consider the huge leap you gain by being able to capture yourself -and perhaps a more graceful friend- with a Kinect and then apply the captured motions to Rex and Roxie (or whatever dolls you're using)!   Forget about gaming for the moment - imagine what you'll be able to do in Poser, animating any action you want.

     Do you want to render in other studios or with alternative render engines?  Consider the RAM/speed savings benefit of being able to bake the doll's entire array of textures to a single map.  And any engine which uses FBX (Unity, et al) can get a rigged and animated doll.  It's like PoserFusion to... anything.

     And don't limit your game thinking to making a new game;  what about making yourself a custom avatar for whatever game you already like?

Poser 12, in feet.  

OSes:  Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

Quote - Combining figures into one.
Example: You load a Figure, drag-drop-conform, some clothing over it, and then use the "combine" function to combine all these into a single rigged and posable figure.

Most call that boolean.would be nice if all the cgi app's called everthing the same thing.

Boolean operations deal with intersecting volumes, combining two solids into one, using a solid to remove part of another solid, or to create a new solid from the intersections of more than one solid.

Poser clothing usually is not solid, and generally isn't supposed to intersect the underlying figure, except maybe the older clothing that had "capped" sleeves etc.

For Poser to remove e.g. the parts of the arm hidden by a sleeve requires an entirely different algorithm to determine the hidden part of the arm.  To call this a "boolean" operation would be incorrect as it is only similar in application.

Not into game development, but would love to see one of you make a game I would probably play endlessly....(your favorite legal for use female character) NITWAS :thumbupboth:

Seriously....you can't fault SM for trying to find new markets for their software can you?

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

Quote - Not into game development, but would love to see one of you make a game I would probably play endlessly....(your favorite legal for use female character) NITWAS :thumbupboth:

Seriously....you can't fault SM for trying to find new markets for their software can you?

I'm not faulting SM for trying to grow .
I hope there very very successful and have billions & billions to throw at Poser.
To make it all that much better for us.

I'm just confussed about what all there showing and saying on there game pages.

http://poser.smithmicro.com/gamedev.html 

http://poser.smithmicro.com/pproGameDev_specsheet_final_FULLRES.pdf 

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but no one uses topology that's in those .jpgs.
Games don't use quad meshes,dynamic hair,cloths ,weight map rigs.

I just think that Game Poser pages and sell pitch could be a hole lot better.
Are they stricking you they know what there talking about ?

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - > Quote - Combining figures into one.

Example: You load a Figure, drag-drop-conform, some clothing over it, and then use the "combine" function to combine all these into a single rigged and posable figure.

Most call that boolean.would be nice if all the cgi app's called everthing the same thing.

Boolean operations deal with intersecting volumes, combining two solids into one, using a solid to remove part of another solid, or to create a new solid from the intersections of more than one solid.

Poser clothing usually is not solid, and generally isn't supposed to intersect the underlying figure, except maybe the older clothing that had "capped" sleeves etc.

For Poser to remove e.g. the parts of the arm hidden by a sleeve requires an entirely different algorithm to determine the hidden part of the arm.  To call this a "boolean" operation would be incorrect as it is only similar in application.

What do we call it ?

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

The images at the Game Dev link do seem a bit puzzling.  The main male figure looks like a triangle mesh, presumably displaying the polygon feature in use, but the topology of the garment is... just weird.  My best guess is that the garment shows polygon reduction, but with subdivision applied on top of that.  The overall effect is puzzling, in a promotional graphic intended to illustrate the new feature sets.  :unsure:  Maybe someone will explain what the promo graphics are trying to illustrate.

The somewhat puzzling images aside, the feature descriptions seem pretty straightforward.  There's some good stuff there.  :woot:

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Ya the black coat is a tri mesh that's been SubDed in to quads.
and the new tools sound cool.

none of the mesh is mirrored ,Does Poser have mirrored topology ?
not sure why the black coat collar is not just a plane.Does Poser have dobbled sided polygones ?
not sure why the white collar isn't just painted.
Why are the top of the shoulders next to the shirt have a rase in them like that ?
Why do we have alot of tri's at the deltoids biceps seem and fewer tris in the face.
Can we controal heavy lite sections of tri's ? 

The mesh in the .jpg is not ya standard game mesh.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote -
Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but no one uses topology that's in those .jpgs.
Games don't use quad meshes,dynamic hair,cloths ,weight map rigs.

Some game engines do use dynamic cloth. I don't know of any examples of dynamic hair yet. Unity3D and Unreal both use vertex weight painting (aka weight maps). Quad meshes are also useable, just not standard.

 

 

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Combining figures into one.

Example: You load a Figure, drag-drop-conform, some clothing over it, and then use the "combine" function to combine all these into a single rigged and posable figure.

Most call that boolean.would be nice if all the cgi app's called everthing the same thing.

Boolean operations deal with intersecting volumes, combining two solids into one, using a solid to remove part of another solid, or to create a new solid from the intersections of more than one solid.

Poser clothing usually is not solid, and generally isn't supposed to intersect the underlying figure, except maybe the older clothing that had "capped" sleeves etc.

For Poser to remove e.g. the parts of the arm hidden by a sleeve requires an entirely different algorithm to determine the hidden part of the arm.  To call this a "boolean" operation would be incorrect as it is only similar in application.

What do we call it ?

 

Unseen polygon removal?  That is the specific name of the feature.  I'm guessing it uses some kind of raycasting to determine if each polygon of a figure is obscured by any part of another figure, the computer equivalent of spinning the figure around and removing all polygons that can't be seen from any angle.

Quote - > Quote -

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but no one uses topology that's in those .jpgs.
Games don't use quad meshes,dynamic hair,cloths ,weight map rigs.

Some game engines do use dynamic cloth. I don't know of any examples of dynamic hair yet. Unity3D and Unreal both use vertex weight painting (aka weight maps). Quad meshes are also useable, just not standard.

 

 

OK we need lots of info.
What games made with what engines on what plaforms have dynamic cloths ?
and how do they pull off such a resource killer ?
Do ya half to code in assembly ?

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Combining figures into one.

Example: You load a Figure, drag-drop-conform, some clothing over it, and then use the "combine" function to combine all these into a single rigged and posable figure.

Most call that boolean.would be nice if all the cgi app's called everthing the same thing.

Boolean operations deal with intersecting volumes, combining two solids into one, using a solid to remove part of another solid, or to create a new solid from the intersections of more than one solid.

Poser clothing usually is not solid, and generally isn't supposed to intersect the underlying figure, except maybe the older clothing that had "capped" sleeves etc.

For Poser to remove e.g. the parts of the arm hidden by a sleeve requires an entirely different algorithm to determine the hidden part of the arm.  To call this a "boolean" operation would be incorrect as it is only similar in application.

What do we call it ?

 

Unseen polygon removal?  That is the specific name of the feature.  I'm guessing it uses some kind of raycasting to determine if each polygon of a figure is obscured by any part of another figure, the computer equivalent of spinning the figure around and removing all polygons that can't be seen from any angle.

Well that's the good and bad things about PC's they don't think like we do.
Remember zBrush tri UVMaps ,always thought that was funny and a good exsample of the diffrences between us.

I know how I would go about getting all the meshes to merge
,have no idea if it would work thou.
I am curious to play with Game Poser ,
I am attempting to become a vendor and games mesh are right up my alley :)

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Quad meshes are also useable, just not standard.

This depends on the target platform, and saying it is not standard is odd.

You should use a quad based mesh if you plan on texturing it with Directx Tesselation Shaders. Directx Tesselation doesn't have a clue what to do with a triangle unless it creates PNtriangles from a quad matrix list. (there are ways around this.) Using a non tesselated quad mesh also saves memory size and bandwidth between the cpu and gpu. The mesh is tesselated on the gpu, freeing the cpu from not only tesselating it, but transferring a larger mesh to the gpu.

Many game engines prefer, or convert to trianlges on import. This is a double edged sword depending on the target platform you are developing for. Or if you are texturing without uv maps (Ptex or similar).

If the engine you are using accels at using triangles, you don't want quads, no argument there.

If you are developing for a platform and using DirectX Tesselation Shaders, you don't want triangles. (again, there are ways around this. But why slow it down by using triangles?)

Which style gets used the most (Quads versus Triangles) is up for debate.

As far as dynamic cloth, most game engine use APEX (or similar as in Cry's case) style cloth with rope bones to define them. There not dynamic in they way Poser does it, they are rigged with physics applied to the bone chains. They look and react dynamic when played thou.

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Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

Quote - OK we need lots of info.
What games made with what engines on what plaforms have dynamic cloths ?
and how do they pull off such a resource killer ?
Do ya half to code in assembly ?

I don't know how it's coded, I just know that it is used, and it doesn't seem all that resource-intensive. 

SWTOR uses some type of dynamic/physics-based cloth for their cloaks and robes. 

Here is a video from CCP demonstrating the physX cloth that they were using in World of Darkness - the vampire MMO that was cancelled last year (or earlier this year)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrtwESnTOwY

Quote - > Quote - Quad meshes are also useable, just not standard.

This depends on the target platform, and saying it is not standard is odd.

Most game models for PCs and consoles consist of tris. Whether they were modeled as tris to begin with or teselated afterwards. That's all I was saying. Standard for most games is tris. 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrtwESnTOwY

I'm very impressed with the video.

CGI moves so fast it's difficult to keep up to date.
Guess I'm stuck in the past 2012 ya know ;)

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maybe back around 1998 there where some meshes modeled with tri's.
but I would think most box modeled with loops then tried the mesh.

I can't say for everyone
but I think the best looking meshes are made in zBrush/MudBox
 ,then retopology.

So I guess that would make box modeling in quads or tri's old school.

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Many game engines prefer, or convert to trianlges on import. This is a double edged sword depending on the target platform you are developing for. Or if you are texturing without uv maps (Ptex or similar).

If the engine you are using accels at using triangles, you don't want quads, no argument there.

If you are developing for a platform and using DirectX Tesselation Shaders, you don't want triangles. (again, there are ways around this. But why slow it down by using triangles?)

Which style gets used the most (Quads versus Triangles) is up for debate.

This is interesting.  Thank you.  While I was scripting with Panda3D, I was told that all video cards would necessarily break quads down into tris upon rendering, so I shouldn't be concerned that Panda was converting my quad .egg models into tris upon import.  From the way that was asserted, it sounded absolute, as though graphics cards only handle tris.  I suppose they were only thinking in terms of what Panda accommodates.  It's nice to know that some engines can do quads.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Most game models for PCs and consoles consist of tris. Whether they were modeled as tris to begin with or teselated afterwards. That's all I was saying. Standard for most games is tris.

The standard for rendering is triangles unless the engine and hardware does NURBS, etc (not much hardware does this, yet). But mesh storage is completely different story.

All Quad based meshes are technically made of triangles, but an edge is not drawn, or defined in the file. This has an advantage.

As an example.

Take a quad based mesh that is 600 polys and all quads.

This model has 2400 define vertices.

Now trianglulate the model. Now it has 1200 tris and 3600 vertices.

You just added 1200 vertices to the list in the file, which increases the file size dramatically. Keep in mind that the UV part of it increases in size as well, so does the normals section if it has to be in the file.

Do you need to store it as tris? Not really, all you did was dratically increase the overhead of everything done between the gpu, cpu, and memory of both.

1200 vertices in the example does not sound like much, but it all adds up very quickly in a multi player game with complex levels.

Use high rez meshes, and it gets far worse rather quickly.

If the game you are making can get away with using that much overhead (or requires it), by all means define the tris so it looks exactly like you want it to.

If you start running into bus flooding that degrades fps and game play, store them as quads and be done with it. Again this is engine specific, and many high end game engines are just fine with meshes stored as quads. So does DirectX.

Let the gpu do what it accels at, and feed it as fast as possible. You can feed it quads far faster than you could ever feed it triangles. If the engine supports processing quads, there is no reason to triangulate the mesh.

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Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

Since every quad mesh is made up of triangles behind the scenes, every quad mesh can be converted to triangles by revealing those hidden edges.  There's ways to do that automatically in 3dsmax, for example.  Therefor, modelling in quads for low poly game development is common practice.

Instead of decimating quad meshes, I would prefer an option to reverse subdivision.  Yes, it's possible to reverse subdivision once it has been baked in too.

http://www.mariussilaghi.com/products/turboreverse

It's just a math algorithm after all.  So this wouldn't destroy UV's in most cases, and allow you to maintain quad topology, even for background characters.  Triangulation is good for game engines, but if you have to then smooth it again, as in the example on the Smith Micro websites, to get a nice secondary character, then it's ONLY useful in game engines.

With decimation, I would worry about bad results with IDL, and strange things in animation.  Reduction by stepping down in subd levels is a cleaner way to reduce polys for background characters, and maintaining UV's, decent bending in animation,  etc.

---

Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Attached Link: Tomb Raider, Lara Croft...

TressFX used on Lara Croft's hair in the latest Tomb Raider sounds like strand based physics.

regards
prixat

Modeling in all quads and then just triangulating isn't the most efficient way of modeling for games. All you're doing is just doubling the geometry that you already have, instead of optimizing it. Triangulation should be done by hand to get the best results so you can reduce unnecessary geometry along the way. There are different ways depending whether you're modeling hard surface or organics.

An art test for most game studios will give you a concept piece and a poly count limit in tris. 7 to 10k is average for a fully dressed figure but the limits go up and down depending on who you ask. 

 

> Quote - Modeling in all quads and then just triangulating isn't the most efficient way of modeling for games. All you're doing is just doubling the geometry that you already have, instead of optimizing it. Triangulation should be done by hand to get the best results so you can reduce unnecessary geometry along the way. There are different ways depending whether you're modeling hard surface or organics. An art test for most game studios will give you a concept piece and a poly count limit in tris. 7 to 10k is average for a fully dressed figure but the limits go up and down depending on who you ask.

Modeling in quads, then revealing the hidden edges is very common practice in game modelling, because quads are easier to accomplish, and edit.  This technique only doubles the "faces", because verts are shared by edges, they don't get doubled.  Here's an example.

Above is a simple box made of quads.  Notice the statistics in the corner.

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Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Here's triangulated, by cutting along the hidden edges.

Only two additional verts were added to the geometry, but face count, of course, doubled.

---

Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

I can tell you that a modded Skyrim can use HDT Physics for cloth simulation.  Bascially it is weighted using specific names and done in a certain way and you get: dynamic skirts, dynamic hair (in terms of flowing and moving), physics applied to body parts (jiggle, etc).  That doesn't mean dynamic cloth sims are directly translated to a game engine but games have their own ways to simulate it.  You'd likely still need to use the creation kit for that game to pull off the designs.

Poser Game Dev isn't going to Re-topo, which is what you'd want to change the flow of polygons.  It will be able to convert something to low poly and keep the body part and material divisions.  For the most part its going to decimate what is already there.  I haven't worked extensively with it to give very exacting information.

There will be a lot of non-game uses for this as well.  Crowd scenes has been cited for figure combining.  Mocap via Kinect for Windows will be a great boon for animating (also Kinect for XBOX can be done but not "officially" - I've done it, no rocket science).  Decimation will have other uses, like reducing the size of objects (or figures) with massive polycounts, plus it keeps morphs (if you want) -- reduce that 500,000 polygon car model to something reasonable, for example.

.

One could perhaps create some sort of LOD function for Poser, given Python access to the decimation tools.  There's some good potential there.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

I'm not so sure about the green text math Tri's don't effect vertices at all* *

Take a quad based mesh that is 600 polys and all quads.
This model has 2400 define vertices.
Now trianglulate the model. Now it has 1200 tris and 3600 vertices.

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - TressFX used on Lara Croft's hair in the latest Tomb Raider sounds like strand based physics.

Wicked video

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Modeling in all quads and then just triangulating isn't the most efficient way of modeling for games. All you're doing is just doubling the geometry that you already have, instead of optimizing it. Triangulation should be done by hand to get the best results so you can reduce unnecessary geometry along the way. 

alot just quad retopolgy don't bother to tri just decimate polycount ,
decimate polycount will auto tri's the mesh.

best way ,probably not.fastest easiest way ,ya.

it's all about time and money

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Take a quad based mesh that is 600 polys and all quads.

This model has 2400 define vertices.

Now trianglulate the model. Now it has 1200 tris and 3600 vertices.

You just added 1200 vertices to the list in the file, which increases the file size dramatically. Keep in mind that the UV part of it increases in size as well, so does the normals section if it has to be in the file.

I am confused here...  A quad has four vertices.  If I split it into tris, doesn't it still only have four vertices?

I thought that was the point of tri-strips, to build each triangle by adding one vertex to an existing triangle...

There should not have been any additional verts created in the cube example above. Triangulating a mesh does not change the number of verts because all you're doing is dividing a quad in half diagonally. If the mesh is not all quads, then there might be some increase in vert count depending on whether or not existing tris are ignored. Mostly the increase will only be in the number of edges and faces. 

The reason I prefer to triangulate by hand is because you have more control of edgeflow and poly count. There are a lot of instances where a tri can be used in place of a quad to help reduce innitial geometry. So I model in mostly quads at the lowest res necessary (my build mesh), to get the base shape and then sub divide for all quads and reduce where necessary. This will turn my build mesh tris into 3 quads each, where as had I used a quad instead of a tri, i would have 4 smaller quads. Auto triangulation usually ignores those contours or gets them wrong half the time. Doing it all by hand is pretty quick on low poly models anyway since you're working with pretty low poly counts to begin with, and only have to worry about half of that. I'd rather spend an extra 20 minutes triangulating the way I want it to be and spare a few dozen to a few hundred polys (or more) in the process. 

 

the cube ended up with 10 verts
cause for some reson only 1 of 3 vertices of one of a tri attached and 2 vertices are not attached to the cube
if ya subD the mesh ya might see it

ya half to be careful LW,C4D double edges don't show even with SubD's

I agree ,buy hand topology is better then auto tri,desimate.

I like this thread I'm getting cault up on all the curent tools.
be cool if GAME Poser inclued the wicked tools also :)
I'm all for real time dynamics for Renders,Video's,Games.etc etc

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - the cube ended up with 10 verts
cause for some reson only 1 of 3 vertices of one of a tri attached and 2 vertices are not attached to the cube
if ya subD the mesh ya might see it

Yes, that is true.  I inadvertently created an additional double-vert by cutting manually.  That's the problem with manual triangulation.  When I used the automatic hidden edge feature, I ended up with only 8 verts, exactly what I began with.  My point remains, that triangulation of the quad mesh did NOT double everything on the model, as someone previously alluded to on the first page of this thread..

As we know, a game engine counts triangles, not polygons.  A polygon can be a face containing 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. sides.  Splitting a quad will not increase the number of triangles, or verts, on a model.

---

Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Game Poser appears planned to have all of the Poser Pro tools plus the GD ones.

Quote - As we know, a game engine counts triangles, not polygons.  A polygon can be a face containing 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. sides.  Splitting a quad will not increase the number of triangles, or verts, on a model.

I should have explained it a tad further.

The number of triangles and vert does not increase, but the number of times the are defined in the file and called during construction does. Defining the triangles in the matrix increases the size of it. There is no magic here. If it is there, the matrix must define the winding order.

Consider a cube that is all polygons. Each vertex in that cube is called 4 times during the construction of the matrix in memory. Depending on how it is trangultaed, some of the vertices will be called up to 6 times during the construction. Yep, it is still exactly the same number of vertices, but there is now more information to send to the GPU.

If you can get away with it, send it to the gpu as quads. 

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Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

Will my mesh be triangled or do I have an option? I don't develope games, but I'd like to figure out, how I can benefit from those new GD-features.

Poser does not care too much if it is in tris or quads, as long as the mesh is properly build..

The most asked question in the coming weeks will be:
Why do I get cracks, or weld cracks?

The common answer will be : Are all the bits and pieces welded or unwelded?

Most "game" stuff is unwelded.

And what does Poser need? Correct. Poser needs welded files.

Be it for the clothing room, for the fitting room, or for the newer Game functions, Poser is at its best with properly grouped and welded files.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

where excluding DAZ Studio from this.I know where the $$$ comes from.

How does free app companies like blender etc etc stay in business ?

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Attached Link: http://www.blender.org/foundation/

> Quote - How does free app companies like blender etc etc stay in business ?

It's a nonprofit organization, established for the sole purpose of making the Blender app. The app came first. The foundation to help it came later. It does not "stay in business" as you put it. As a business, it is a complete failure.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

ok let me ask this way ,how do they make money at it ?

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - ok let me ask this way ,how do they make money at it ?

They don't actually make money.   It's funded through donations, and from their own pockets usually.

---

Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Quote - > Quote - How does free app companies like blender etc etc stay in business ?

It's a nonprofit organization, established for the sole purpose of making the Blender app. The app came first. The foundation to help it came later. It does not "stay in business" as you put it. As a business, it is a complete failure.

I'll grant that it wasn't successful as shareware and was a failure as a commercial app.  But it appears to be thriving as an open source app.  Isn't the open-source model based on paying the foundation/community for support and specific development requests?  If it can succeed as a longterm viable tool while failing as a business, then I do agree with you.  

 

Where kinda stuck on blender and thats allright but there's a lot of free apps.
Aren't they exspecting to make a profit at some time ?
By adventualy selling the app when it's good enought ,add's ,something ,anything ?
Why would anyone worry with a business that's a complete failure there hole lifetime ?
and how could ya pay the bills like that.there's got to money some where ,don't there ?

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Where kinda stuck on blender and thats allright but there's a lot of free apps.
Aren't they exspecting to make a profit at some time ?
By adventualy selling the app when it's good enought ,add's ,something ,anything ?
Why would anyone worry with a business that's a complete failure there hole lifetime ?
and how could ya pay the bills like that.there's got to money some where ,don't there ?

 

 

The open source business model just works differently.  In theory you give the program away, and the community improve and refine it until it gains some kind of traction or niche.  Then rather than buying the program outright, users fund development by contracting specific developers or contributors, whether paying them as consultants or to fund specific developments.

 

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - How does free app companies like blender etc etc stay in business ?

It's a nonprofit organization, established for the sole purpose of making the Blender app. The app came first. The foundation to help it came later. It does not "stay in business" as you put it. As a business, it is a complete failure.

I'll grant that it wasn't successful as shareware and was a failure as a commercial app.  But it appears to be thriving as an open source app.  Isn't the open-source model based on paying the foundation/community for support and specific development requests?  If it can succeed as a longterm viable tool while failing as a business, then I do agree with you.  

 

You're saying it's a successful application, a statement I agree with. I said as a business, it is a failure. Not the app - the business. They make no profit. They do not grow. They have no shareholders getting rich, nor a private fatcat with a huge bank account smoking cigars. It's not a business - it's a charity.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Note - I understand that the word "business" covers non-profits as well, but in the context of RorrKonn's question, in which he asks among other things "Aren't they exspecting to make a profit at some time " the answer is no - they are not expected to make a profit - they are not following the rules required to "stay in business". 

wikipedia says:

Quote - Designation as a nonprofit does not mean that the organization does not intend to make a profit, but rather that the organization has no owners and that the funds realized in the operation of the organization will not be used to benefit any owners.

However, I think in this case they have no intention of making a profit..

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Where kinda stuck on blender and thats allright but there's a lot of free apps.
Aren't they exspecting to make a profit at some time ?
By adventualy selling the app when it's good enought ,add's ,something ,anything ?
Why would anyone worry with a business that's a complete failure there hole lifetime ?
and how could ya pay the bills like that.there's got to money some where ,don't there ?

 

Most free apps either sell the data they know about you for a profit, or they borrow your eyeballs to show you advertising, for which they get paid by the advertisers, yielding a profit.

Google apps do both. That is why they are "free". They're not free at all - you pay big with your privacy and with your willingness to be subjected to advertising.

---

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

A lot of heads of non-profits get very rich running non-profits. Especially since they're running on donations and grants. The goodwill is a non-profit, yet the CEO of Goodwill makes millions per year. The NFL is another non-profit organization (along with all the other major sports leagues). How many billions do they make?

If Blender were released today I'm sure it would do very well as a commercial app. Didn't it start out as a nurbs modeler? Most sane people hate working with nurbs, which is why you rarely ever see them being discussed or demonstrated (yes there are others who swear by them. But there are people who still insist Betamax was a better machine than VHS too). But it, and its developers, are doing very well as a non-profit, so there's really no reason to change it. Sounds to me like the best business model they've come up with. 

 

I don't mean to have an endless discussion about this, but I'm compelled to ask what do you mean by "it, and its developers, are doing very well as a non-profit"? Are you saying they are earning a healthy income, or do you mean, as I already agreed, that the application is popular?

According to http://www.blender.org/foundation/development-fund/, they are currently collecting donations at a rate of 4225 Euros per month. (* excluding main sponsors, whatever that means) I wouldn't get out of bed for that money, and I'm just one person. They are 4.

---

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

PoserPro2014 GD arrived. It's released. :)

PPGD upgrades only $40.00 "pocket change" till 8.31.14

RorrKonn is now taking donations to rase $40.00 ;)

AmbientShade I think we should start a non-profits conglomerate :)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

think im probably the only one interested in the Kinect bit

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

Its says "Kinect for windows" does this mean that plugging in my 360 Kinect is not an option?

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

I guess if you've installed the Microsoft SDK it should work. All MS Apps work with the XBox kinect. Just the Kinect from the XBox one won't work, probably. But you may use the XBOX Kinect just for non-commercial things with the MS SDK. For commercial purposes, you will have to buy the Kinect for Windows, IMHO.

But we will see.

I'll tell you in a couple of hours if it works, downloading right now.... :biggrin:

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

I've been doing some google research on this. Apparently XBox Kinect worked with windows up until sometime in 2012 or 2013 when MS stopped allowing it to work (?) I'm assuming in order to promote/encourage the (higher priced) kinect for windows and its SDK. 

Kinect for windows v2 just released on July 15, 2014 and the SDK available on their front page is a beta v2. From what I'm digging up so far, v2 doesn't work with windows 7. It's only Win8.1+ compatible, which lets me out, as there's no chance in frozen hell I'm ever upgrading to the pOS that is win8. So I'll be waiting for win9 to see if that gets me to upgrade. I wonder however if the new kinect will work on the sdk v2. Most likely not.

MS pulled the kinect out of the new xbox due to customer complaints about its "always on" features or some such. Not clear on the details around that but there was a bit of a stink about it a few months back. That dropped the price of the xbox one by $100, but now people are complaining that the new kinect is $200. While the old kinect for Windows is still about $250, with less features, but win7 support. So I'm failing to see the problem people are having here. 

 

 

 

 

I'll be interested in seeing if I can get this to work with Kinect on OSX.

http://www.alan-pipitone.com/index.php/en/blogeng/apple-mac/item/84-use-kinect-with-mac-osx

I don't think that they support the new Kinect V2. The SDK is brand new and beta only, and yes, you would need Windows 8 for it. The new Kinect transfers a lot of data, it seems that the USB 3 driver was changed in Windows 8.

They told the alpha developers that there would be a Win 7 version of the SDK, but they could not get it to work. It's too much data for the (slower) USB 3 implementation of Windows 7 (all according to MS)

The V1 version works on every Windows PC, if you have the SDK installed. It does not matter if you have the Xbox or the "for Windows" variant, both work. The "for Windows" variant has the near mode, and you may use it for commercial projects.

You can get both Kinects on Ebay. The XBOX-Variant is pretty cheap (I've got mine for 30 Euro), but you will need an adapter to connect it to the PC. The "for Windows" variant is around 200 Euros here. 

The SDK works for both. I've done 3d-Scans with my XBOX-Kinect, using the MS SDK.

I'm still downloading, so I could not check if it works. But I suspect you can use the cheaper XBOX Kinect, if you don't plan to work commercially.

There is an open driver for Mac, no idea if Poser supports that. If it does, both V1 Kinects will work, along with Primesense and Asus sensors.

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

Is this PP2014 with extras or are there any differences?

Like the idea of the Kinnect integration for poses but wouldn't use the external facilities.

 

Good price for the 'upgrade' but will it remain an add-on for the current PP product or diverge into another product?

This seems to be PP with extras.  It removes the old version and installs a new one, the new features don't appear unless you enter the new serial. The splash screen changes, then.

The Kinect Capture works with V1 Kinects, the XBox Kinect is supported. It uses the Microsoft SDK, so I guess it won't work on Mac, but I'm not sure about that.

Cannot say much about the quality of the capture, there isn't much room here in my working space, so capturing is a bit difficult.

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

(AmbientShade) 

Quote -   Kinect for windows v2 just released on July 15, 2014 and the SDK available on their front page is a beta v2. From what I'm digging up so far, v2 doesn't work with windows 7. It's only Win8.1+ compatible, which lets me out, as there's no chance in frozen hell I'm ever upgrading to the pOS that is win8. 

     The Poser Game Dev uses the v1 Kinect;  it does not support v2.

Poser 12, in feet.  

OSes:  Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

All this talking

Where's the .jpg's & videos :)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

(RorrKonn) 

Quote -   All this talkingWhere's the .jpg's & videos :) 

     Pictures, or it didn't happen! 

     My weapon of choice for mocap ,Galadriel, is still out of commission (finally tracked it down to a bad BIOS chip on the mobo).  She's being rebuilt with a later revision motherboard, and I just hope that all that node-locked software accepts her as being the same computer.

     Anyway, the local Sonic is having a rollerskating contest, and I'll see if I can schmoose/bribe a carhop or two into skating for mocap.  But video?  That won't come until after cleaning up the mocap, setting up a scene, and then rendering all those frames.

Poser 12, in feet.  

OSes:  Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

i wait with baited breathe for your findings Bantha

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

The Game Dev only "officially" supports Kinect for Windows.  However, it works fine with the XBOX Kinect.  You need to install the 1.8 Kinect SDK.  If your Kinect for XBOX only has the orange plug, you need a power adapter, which comes with a USB converter.  Luckily I have a standalone version of Kinect for 360, which has the proper wazzit - at the time it was the new thing.

SDK is Windows 7 or higher. http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=40278

.

I posted already in the other thread, my kinect for XBOX works. I don't have enough space here for serious mocap in my actual working room, so I can't show pictures, but the plugin does work with the Kinect.

Just don't install the OpenNI-Framework. You need the MS drivers with the MS SDK.

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

I haven't read all the replies to this, but I definitely see the benefits of these features, especially with animation and even more so with scenes that feature large numbers of characters.

With regards to removing unseen polys, isn't this the same as 'shrink-wrapping', which can be done with models that are to be 3D printed? I pretty much imagine it like taking a fully clothed figure and applying a vacuum sealed wrap around it, then taking that wrap and applying all the textures to it, effectively creating an entirely new mesh with a new, all-in-one map, depicting only what is seen on the surface.

Couple this with the motion capture and you've got one exciting looking package on the way! I'm envisaging a much smoother experience making my animation with this, though I'm not sure when I'll be able to afford it, lol!

 [EDIT]

Does Kinect work with facial expressions?

Glen.

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*     Remove unseen polys* is very distinct from shrink wrapping.  Poser Pro 2014's fitting room does do shrink wrapping, if you want it.

     No facial expression capture.  GameDev uses the v1 sensor;  you only get limb/torso motion.

Poser 12, in feet.  

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Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

Quote - With regards to removing unseen polys, isn't this the same as 'shrink-wrapping', which can be done with models that are to be 3D printed? I pretty much imagine it like taking a fully clothed figure and applying a vacuum sealed wrap around it, then taking that wrap and applying all the textures to it, effectively creating an entirely new mesh with a new, all-in-one map, depicting only what is seen on the surface.

I think the term 'shrink-wrapping' is being used for more than one type of feature.  Poser's Fitting Room will 'shrink wrap' one existing mesh around another.  Poser's Morph Brush tool will assist with this as well, without the automation of the process in the Fitting Room.  Whereas generating a new 'airtight' model with no surface gaps, suitable for 3D printing, would be generating a new mesh over the surface of the original (often using voxel fields, as I understand it).  You could perhaps attempt to create such an 'airtight' model using Poser's 'shrink-wrapping' tools, but you would be hampered by the resolution and topology of whatever mesh you're shrinking onto the other.  (There's a special term for these 'airtight' models, which evades me at the moment.  :unsure:)

Poser's Fitting Room is designed to... well, 'fit' one figure to another, and it's a very useful feature.  Poser once had a plugin available which could generate the voxel field type skin (notably without transferring any surface UV mapping), but it only worked in Poser 5.  So Poser does have useful 'shrink-wrapping' of one type available, but not the sort of 'shrink-wrapping' that you've described.  :sad:

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Quote -   There's a special term for these 'airtight' models... 

Topologically closed.

Poser 12, in feet.  

OSes:  Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

Quote - Topologically closed.

That seems suitable, but there's another one.  Maybe the term is "manifold"?  :unsure:  Not that it's crucially important.  :lol:

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

[quoteThat seems suitable, but there's another one.  Maybe the term is "manifold"?  :unsure:  Not that it's crucially important.  :lol:

Yes, that's true.  It's a term commonly used in 3D printing, to refer to models that have been created in compliance with 3D printing technology, which mostly require a solid, closed surfaces.  For decades, people were using techniques to save polygons by not modelling parts of models that would never be seen by a virtual camera, etc..  It's also a good strategy for today's physically accurate render engines, where the quality of the lighting, and realism can rely heavily on the realism of the objects in the scene.  Using manifold topology can help with complex physical light calculations, and calculating certain physical surface shaders, etc.

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Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Quote - > Quote - Topologically closed.

That seems suitable, but there's another one.  Maybe the term is "manifold"?  :unsure:  Not that it's crucially important.  :lol:

That is the term I thought you were looking for.  One of the cooler aspects of Wings 3D, once you appreciates its usefulness, is that it is a manifold modeler.  Every operation of Wings is based around the idea that there is the space around the model, and there is another distinct space inside it.  That is why Wings by default produces (almost?) exclusively watertight models.  In order to create a one sided or "open" object in Wings, you practically have to use "export selected" on a set of faces.  And when these objects are imported back into Wings, the models are actually closed during conversion to a winged edge data structure.

Bantha, when you say you've done 3D scanning with your Kkinect, do you think it's posssible to have this aid ini charaer creation in Poser? Only for my over ambitious animation project, I'm going to want myself as a character, so being able to 3D scan myself would be useful, especially if I could convert that scan to a mesh and use it as a guide for morphs in Poser. Just a thought.

I'm running Win 10 Pro 32GB RAM Intel Core i7-4790K CPU @ 4.00GHz Nvidia GeForce GTX 1660 Ti

My DA Gallery: glen85.deviantart.com/gallery

Peace, love and polygons!

Quote - I kind of wonder if that mesh is meant to illustrate the Polygon Reduction system...?  :unsure: ....

 

If that is how the system handles poly reduction you can count me out. I'd like to see other peoples actual screenshots before pulling the trigger. If it does it symetrically (and I can tell it the amount of reduction) it is worth the $$$!!

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You have full control about the amount of reduction.
Unfortunately, it is not symetrical.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - You have full control about the amount of reduction.
Unfortunately, it is not symetrical.

 

Not symetrical............................................................ not going to see me then probably. I love the fact it will update the uv map to keep textures (assuming). I can see it being useful.

 

But (and I don't want to rant) SM has yet to fix so so so many long lasting bugs and issues for content creators with the core features of the software. I think it bold of them to dive into a new market, a new use of their software... I just think it will not "work as expected" for some time. I would LOVE to think it will work with no issues, but I am still waiting to do much "simpler" things with their current software (features that have been in for multiple versions that still don't work like they should).

 

I will keep my eyes peeled and watch to see how it works! I don't want to be seen as a "nay-sayer"..... I am just "protecting" myself from upgrading once again and not having it work as presumed from the products description. But, like I said, I will watch and see what you all say about it!! Mind open (wallet closed for now).

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DarkSealStudios- It's $40.  We aren't talking a lot of money here - I don't animate at all, but the polyreduction and poly hiding features alone make it worth owning to me.

If I can shrink a fully clothed figure from 95Mg to 25 Mg, it's a go in my book - and I have just started to peruse the GameDev Addendum - there is a lot of information in it to read & process.

The people that are demanding answers from the early adapters need to buy their own damn copy - I only know about what I have read & how that will affect my production workflow.

Quote - DarkSealStudios- It's $40.  We aren't talking a lot of money here

Buy it then, I'm not stopping you...

Quote - If I can shrink a fully clothed figure from 95Mg to 25 Mg, it's a go in my book - and I have just started to peruse the GameDev Addendum - there is a lot of information in it to read & process.

mg... milligrams? microgerbils? Hey, I got an idea, manybe a video on the features and how they work! ...before the upgrade offer is over...

Quote - The people that are demanding answers from the early adapters need to buy their own damn copy -

So happy to see you support your fellow conent creators! With this winning atitude anything is possible!

 

Does it sound good? Sure. Will it work as advertised? Not sure... the core program doesn't (and issues persist from version to version unfixed), why should I just assume the plugin/addon work 100% out of the box?

 

Would be pretty sweet if an "early adapter" (adopter maybe) would show us what's what so people know what they are getting..... or maybe even the software company that makes it could do this.... and "upload" it to the "internet" to a "video hosting site" and "facetweet" it to possible "customers".

 

1 screenshot of a badly reduced figure with no textures and BAD topology does not have me sold no matter how CHEAP it is. Do you see clean edge loops? You think you (not you since you don't animate) are going to ANIMTE that in a game setting!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?lol??!??!??!?! You know.... what it is MADE FOR.

I'll wait for more info, thanks.

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I haven't seen an "automatic" polygon reduction system thus far that does a miraculous job.  However, it's been several years since I've looked at them so if anyone has examples to post where you're going to get amazing results without re-topoing a mesh instead, please do.  I am honestly curious.

Except for Symmetry, which I do feel it should have, I think it does a decent job, considering the disadvantages of using poly reduction in the first place - careful placement and creation of a low poly object would be better from the start instead of expecting automated poly reduction to get it right.

I'd like to know what the lost lasting bugs are -- maybe I or others could help?  Apart from oddities or feature requests, which I agree more can be done there, the core program works here and isn't broken.

.

Quote - > Quote - DarkSealStudios- It's $40.  We aren't talking a lot of money here

Buy it then, I'm not stopping you...

Quote - If I can shrink a fully clothed figure from 95Mg to 25 Mg, it's a go in my book - and I have just started to peruse the GameDev Addendum - there is a lot of information in it to read & process.

mg... milligrams? microgerbils? Hey, I got an idea, manybe a video on the features and how they work! ...before the upgrade offer is over...

Quote - The people that are demanding answers from the early adapters need to buy their own damn copy -

So happy to see you support your fellow conent creators! With this winning atitude anything is possible!

Does it sound good? Sure. Will it work as advertised? Not sure... the core program doesn't (and issues persist from version to version unfixed), why should I just assume the plugin/addon work 100% out of the box?

 Would be pretty sweet if an "early adapter" (adopter maybe) would show us what's what so people know what they are getting..... or maybe even the software company that makes it could do this.... and "upload" it to the "internet" to a "video hosting site" and "facetweet" it to possible "customers".

1 screenshot of a badly reduced figure with no textures and BAD topology does not have me sold no matter how CHEAP it is. Do you see clean edge loops? You think you (not you since you don't animate) are going to ANIMTE that in a game setting!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?lol??!??!??!?! You know.... what it is MADE FOR.

I'll wait for more info, thanks.

I do support content creators the only way that matters - with money (I stopped counting the costs of Poser when I crossed the 10K spending line) - I have quite a few of your products - and looking forward to more of the Plus series. 

I'm an end user & I bought it the second I saw the announcement that it was available.  Bitching about what SM did or didn't do as far as videos, etc somewhere other than via feedback to SM bug report is simply pointless - which EVERYONE here should know by now.  SM visits here from time to time, but they don't put any weight behind complaints made here - and certainly don't take anything they tell us here as gospel.  (I am still waiting on those Weight Mapped G2 figures that Steve Cooper promised us here in this very forum back in the fall of '12).

The new tools are just like any other tool - you have to learn how to use it & everyone expecting instant results is simply damned foolish.  So far, neither I (nor anyone else) outside of the beta team really know what these new features will do.  I am still working through the very first thing that interested me (hiding polys) to reduce figure size - It will be at least a month or so before I feel comfortable with the new tools.  There is a lot in the GameDev addendum.

Early results are pleasing however......

Quote - I haven't seen an "automatic" polygon reduction system thus far that does a miraculous job.  However, it's been several years since I've looked at them so if anyone has examples to post where you're going to get amazing results without re-topoing a mesh instead, please do.  I am honestly curious.

 

Zbrush.... I can reduce a mesh to whatever I want. I can make it symmetrical. I can make the texture polypaint and paste it on to the new one... just just I have to re-uv that (automated process is "ok").

 

This seems to do it all in one, and if I am reading the text right, it will even redistribute the uv maps and make them all on 1, 1:1 uv map... right?

 

Again...if only there were a video on the interwebs to show me what it can do...

 

and SSGBryan: Thank you for the support. But it would be nice if someone was nice enough to talk about the program and not go with the "get your own damn copy" attitude. $40 is not a lot..... unless you are say... working from home, for yourself, selling poser content as your main form of income... Not your problem, but a broken tool doesn't fix my sh!t, and it would be nice to know if everything "works as designed" and see it in action.

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http://pixologic.com/zbrush/features/decimation/
All tri meshes look ruff so desimated meshes look ruff to.

Zremesher
http://pixologic.com/zbrush/features/ZBrush4R6/ 
I have a hard time with z's remesher & characters

I have better luck with MudBox

Desimate is fastest
Remesh a bit slower but a bit better
Retopolgy by hand is best but slowest

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Thanks for the links! Those do look great :)

Yeah, I can re-topo in 3D Coat and certainly it would be the best way to go.  You can import for re-topo, do an automatic retopo, which is often good to decent but at times you still need to get in there and clean it up.

Now, if you guys have access to those tools via Z-brush, why be so concerned about the Polygon reduction aspect of Poser Game Dev?  It's obviously something you wouldn't need.  BTW, Isn't $40 a drop in the bucket compared to the price of Zbrush? (Though yes, you could have bought it long ago).  Even so, from what I saw, yes it could probably still use improvement (and symmetry for sure) but for an $8 tool if you divide the features, it's not bad.

BTW, I work from home and Poser is my main source of income as well and I do understand that the summer months can be brutal but still it's not all the money in the world and maybe it has things you might not need.

Also, I think Cooper might be playing catch up if he's back in the office.  He had an accident a few days before the Game Dev launch.  For all I know, it's caused delays elsewhere such as extra promoting and videos.

.

Quote - Yeah, I can re-topo in 3D Coat and certainly it would be the best way to go.  You can import for re-topo, do an automatic retopo, which is often good to decent but at times you still need to get in there and clean it up.

I never made much use of 3DCoat, but my impression was that the retopo features necessarily changed the UV mapping.  Is there a way to avoid that?    Poser's decimation is nice, in that it does retain the mapping.  When I've built game figures before, I started with MakeHuman, then used some... really awful and awkward decimation tools that borked up the mapping.  Poser's new stuff could really save some work.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

I don't think so.  You're basically building a sheath around the original object.  With Auto Topo, you can define the polygon flow using projected splines.  It's fairly neat.  However, I haven't had the program for too long so I can't claim to be an expert on it.

Yeah, the overall advantage in Poser would be retaining the UVs, the morphs and so forth.  I have faith that the feature set for the game dev will be improved.  Dropping a bug report (I think its possible via web form) would help expedite features folks would like to see (that's not directed to you, just a general thing).

Another thought for ZBrush.  Since the decimation is superior and you have several choices via plugins, does it support FBX?  One could go that route if so.  FBX out of Poser, use Zbrush decimation?

.

Quote - Yeah, I can re-topo in 3D Coat and certainly it would be the best way to go.  You can import for re-topo, do an automatic retopo, which is often good to decent but at times you still need to get in there and clean it up. Now, if you guys have access to those tools via Z-brush, why be so concerned about the Polygon reduction aspect of Poser Game Dev?  It's obviously something you wouldn't need.  BTW, Isn't $40 a drop in the bucket compared to the price of Zbrush? (Though yes, you could have bought it long ago).  Even so, from what I saw, yes it could probably still use improvement (and symmetry for sure) but for an $8 tool if you divide the features, it's not bad.

Because it preserves the morphs?  Don't think you're going to get that with re-topo in another app.

Quote - Also, I think Cooper might be playing catch up if he's back in the office.  He had an accident a few days before the Game Dev launch.  For all I know, it's caused delays elsewhere such as extra promoting and videos.

Here is hoping Cooper gets his mesh rebuilt as quickly as possible. :m_thoughtful:

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

other app's auto poly killers where asked about .so I just posted some links for info.

Thinks it's safe to say MudBox ,zBrush repesents poly killer tech for most app's.

I know a lot hear don't use main app's & plugs or know how it all works with them.
and that's OK not everyone wants to build Rockets it's a lot of fun to fly them.

Poser meshes comes with mesh,uvmaps,textures,morphs made in zBrush or it's =.

Poser is the Rocket
zBrush or it's = is NASA that built the Rocket

Hope Cooper is doing well.

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Oh, oh, oh!
No, no, o, no!
LOL.

Just some small corections here.

Few , if ANY, native Poser figure have been "build" in Zbrush.

They use a number of tools, and Zbrush in in the workflow, but I am sure the initial modeling was NOT done in the "Brushes from Z".

Many moons ago, they posted their workflow, (at least most part of it), and Zbrush was only a small intermediate step in the process.

Perhaps they use it now, but at the time?

Maya, Lightwave, among others where the main apps if my fading memory does not leave me.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - Oh, oh, oh!
No, no, o, no!
LOL.

Just some small corections here.

Few , if ANY, native Poser figure have been "build" in Zbrush.

They use a number of tools, and Zbrush in in the workflow, but I am sure the initial modeling was NOT done in the "Brushes from Z".

Many moons ago, they posted their workflow, (at least most part of it), and Zbrush was only a small intermediate step in the process.

Perhaps they use it now, but at the time?

Maya, Lightwave, among others where the main apps if my fading memory does not leave me.

Thats why I said zBrush or it's =

It's just shorter then going Max,Maya,Lightwave,C4D,Modo etc etc and plugs. :)

There's different tools,work flows of making meshes.
The gallerys speak for them selfs.
I go with who ever has the best gallery.

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Oeps, my gallery is a virgin. LOL.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

ZRemesher is the sh**.

Netherworks: Good to know about Cooper, maybe they'll release a video befofe the offer expires? I do like the idea of the add-on, don't get me wrong... it's just... Oh look, Poser 2015 Pro is here 2 months later, want to buy it? Oh yeah, want to buy the game dev version of that too?

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@ DarksealStudios

Have you seen this tread?
Please read it top to bottom to discover some of the new PP2014 GD funtions in action.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2883697

PS; Unfortuantely Mr Cooper has had an accident and will be out for some time.
We wish him all the best.

In a previous post he stated: "Poser 10 and PP2014 will be with us for some time to come".
Now you can nosepick whatever you want but I do not think he was talking about days. LOL.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Just finished downloading game dev. Now trying to decide if I should install separately or just do it as a full upgrade. What non-game dev features are improved in SR4 Tony, do you know?

 

Quote - ZRemesher is the sh**.

Netherworks: Good to know about Cooper, maybe they'll release a video befofe the offer expires? I do like the idea of the add-on, don't get me wrong... it's just... Oh look, Poser 2015 Pro is here 2 months later, want to buy it? Oh yeah, want to buy the game dev version of that too?

No promises but I'll see what I can do on my own.  I'm just getting my system back in order and that usually takes a few days.  I replaced some faulty hardward and upgraded my system.  I do understand the frustration and the concerns.  I do like to play devil's advocate but I'm not trying to be an ass.

Traditionally, we haven't had an odd numbered 20xx release.  I expect a 2016/Poser 11 but I think we are a ways off yet.  I haven't heard anything concrete as a beta/amba.

@Shane: Personally I installed right over top of Poser Pro 2014.  I said no to "remove previous installation" and I used my existing preferences and core runtime location.

.

Hello Shane, a lot of work went into this version, but you have to understand that it is not up to us to reveal that kind of information.

I installed over the existing PP2014, full of confidence, and without regrets.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Tony, right now, yes you can use voxel-based modeling to create the meshes.  I don't know what it's called in ZBrush but I've played with it in 3D-Coat and it's very powerful.  I don't think it will replace all traditional modeling techniques but some things are SO much easier using voxel sculpting.  Again, I'm still learning but really enjoying it.

.

Quote - @ DarksealStudios

Have you seen this tread?
Please read it top to bottom to discover some of the new PP2014 GD funtions in action.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2883697

PS; Unfortuantely Mr Cooper has had an accident and will be out for some time.
We wish him all the best.

In a previous post he stated: "Poser 10 and PP2014 will be with us for some time to come"....

 

Thanks Vilters! I see it now...

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Quote - Tony, right now, yes you can use voxel-based modeling to create the meshes.  I don't know what it's called in ZBrush but I've played with it in 3D-Coat and it's very powerful.  I don't think it will replace all traditional modeling techniques but some things are SO much easier using voxel sculpting.  Again, I'm still learning but really enjoying it.

Don't think zBrush calls it voxel-based modeling or has a name for it.
 Just a matter of what brushes & alfa's ,textures if used.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I know venders never talk shop.

but I was checking Turbosquid out.

The game meshes sold there are all right but nothing to get excited about.

Nothing as cool as some of the meshes in unreals 4 youtube video's or blizzard meshes.

anyways there subD meshes like Roxie they sell the same mesh over and over agian
in diffrent out fits for a lot of $$$ each time.
Why would you buy the same mesh over and over again ?
why not just buy the out fit ?
There's nothing specail about the out fits either.
DAZ Poser stores have more of a selection buy far.

I don't get why people just don't use DAZ Poser meshes ?
They work just fine in any app ,Poser even has Fussion.

Can any one exsplain that to me ?

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Blizzard's meshes?  You mean World of Warcraft?  Really where Blizzard shines is their art department and the quality of the animations.  Only recently have they been creating more dense and detailed meshes but most of it hides behind the fantastic 2D art assets.  It has a fun style but I don't think an example of how far games can go.  It still runs on a fairly old engine, but that also gives an opportunity for a wider range of systems that can run it.

The difference between voxels and just using brushes to deform is that voxels really don't concern themselves with the mesh, it's more about the sculpting (the clay itself) rather than poly flow and the poly count.  You build the mesh later by retopology.

.

Ya I like Blizzards WarCraft ,Diablo ,Swarm Art and Videos.
Darksider is cool also.

I know in the Z4R5 days they would get 3DCoat for Retopology.
sculpter app's are killer and make the best looking meshes by far.
there just not all that great with topology .

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote -
Hello Shane, a lot of work went into this version, but you have to understand that it is not up to us to reveal that kind of information.

I installed over the existing PP2014, full of confidence, and without regrets.

Ah, apologies Tony. I didn't realize it would still be under nda after release.  Usually after release all the features are free to be discussed.

Thanks for the info tho. :)

I'll just experiment and find it all myself once I get it installed.

OK, they got my monies... I downloaded the MS kinect SDK 1.8 and hooked up the kinect.... the results are terrible terrible terrible...

 

I got this for one reason and one reason only. To hook up the kinect. "It's supported" they said. "It will work" they said. I've tried with "supported" poser figures and daz figures. The bodies end up in a twisted soup, not sitting on the floor (and always facing away from the camera). the grouping doesn't delete like they said it would if the option to keep them is not check....

 

So........... yeah. I feel like I should have listen to myself at this point. If they come out with a sr5 asap to fix things i will eat my words (again, IF they fix things).

 

 

Anyone know how to work this kinect well with poser? Simply following the SM instructions via the pdf is NOT working out to yeah usable results.

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Just for kicks:

Dregon

The new Toons

The new toon's clothng

Rex

Roxie

All started life inside ZBrush.  As a character artist, I find it faster to work out designs in ZBrush.