Dawn is the latest figure to catch the attenion of many Poser users and it looks like she's here to stay. What do you think are some of Dawn's best features and what would you do to minimize any perceived faults?

Also, what's the next thing they could do to make Dawn even better? For example, I just found out that some vendors are starting to use Poser's animatable joint technology to make Dawn a more versatile figure Like make her Catgirl.

Earl? the Dawn hype is over . They killed it themselves.

She lasted 2 minutes longer then Genesis. Ha-ha-ha-
Sorry Dawn, but you went down.

To make her better?

Use a 2014 mesh instead of a 2002 technology mesh.
The structure of the mesh dates right between V3 and V4.
That is 8 to 10 year old.
Use a human skin texture instead of that oversaturated painting.
And if some one else comes up with the next decoupled jaw? You know the way to the back door, right?

Oh, and Down?
You never get a second chance to make a first impression. Sleep well.
Sorry, you asked.

Animated Joints.

First they came out with bones in breasts to improve rigging.
Well, I asked all the females I know, but none has bones in her breasts. LOL.

Then I checked "my" joints, and I am a pretty normal human being. I could not find ANY animation, not to the level some are going anyway. A few mm at the most.

Wanna make monsters, dragons? => Use animated joints.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Only way they can make her better is by changing the entire mesh, because her topology is limiting.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - First they came out with bones in breasts to improve rigging.
Well, I asked all the females I know, but none has bones in her breasts. LOL.

Really? Could you be any more a troll?

Hair in real life doesn't have any bones, but Poser's conforming hair does. You know full well what Poser's "bones" are and what they're for.

Until/Unless Poser gets softbody dynamics and/or jiggle physics, bones and morphs are the only methods available to make breasts into anything more than implant balloons.

________________________________________________________________

If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.

I use her a bit. I have found her biggest limitations to be:

1. A lack of ethnic morphs.

2. The same freakshow proportions as V4.

3. Figures built for her are the same collection of generic early 20's Caucasians that populate the V4 universe. It has gone from being annoying to down right creepy. Logan's Run is not the foundation of my artwork (unlike a lot of folks around here).

I have actually found myself moving back to the SM figures. For all of the issues with the mesh, at least I have a better selection of ethniciites, shapes & ages. Since they keep their clothes on in my art, the mesh issues are irrelevant.

I’d prefer to see specific examples rather than sweeping generalisations, would be more useful …

In what way is Dawn’s topology limiting? In what way is the mesh structure ‘2002 technology’?

Not looking for an argument, I am interested in topology and trying to learn more about it. From what I can see Dawn works quite well in Poser, though I haven’t used any figures heavily for at least the last year. Room for improvement? No doubt, but then I’m fairly sure the same could be said for any figure.

----------------------------------------

Not approved by Scarfolk Council. For more information please reread. Or visit my local shop.

For every person that renders with clothing on, there are way more users who do nudes or semi nude renders, where mesh details are important.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - Until/Unless Poser gets softbody dynamics and/or jiggle physics, bones and morphs are the only methods available to make breasts into anything more than implant balloons.

SM had a webinar that showed how to make their toon figure Barnie have a jiggly beer gut. Same technique applies.

Quote - For every person that renders with clothing on, there are way more users who do nudes or semi nude renders, where mesh details are important.

So what. That doesn't negate my opinion - which was what was asked for btw.

This isn't a let's trash Dawn thread. Seriously, you people drive me nuts sometimes. On one hand I have to deal with the Dawn cheerleading section over at Hivewire who don't want you saying anything remotely negative, and then over here where you mention the name, and people attack like piranha.

I see why people have left the Renderosity Forums. Maybe I should join the rush.

Quote - I’d prefer to see specific examples rather than sweeping generalisations, would be more useful …

In what way is Dawn’s topology limiting? In what way is the mesh structure ‘2002 technology’?

Not looking for an argument, I am interested in topology and trying to learn more about it. From what I can see Dawn works quite well in Poser, though I haven’t used any figures heavily for at least the last year. Room for improvement? No doubt, but then I’m fairly sure the same could be said for any figure.

Her topology flow goes against realistic muscle definitions, therefore won't look very realistic, because it simply cannot produce accurate details without banging your head on a desk. Eg where I want to make a realistic muscle shape, I don't have the polygons to work with, or they are flowing in the wrong direction. Also you have to consider how the mesh reacts when bending and how those morphs look. It's why to this date V4/M4 is more versatile compared to Dawn because the mesh is way better flow wise.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - > Quote - For every person that renders with clothing on, there are way more users who do nudes or semi nude renders, where mesh details are important.

So what. That doesn't negate my opinion - which was what was asked for btw.

You saying the mesh is irrelavent. I'm mentioning why it is. I was also just stating my opinion. Don't get so sensitive:)

My Renderosity Store

The critiqueing time has past, meanig voiceing your idias for improving Dawn would of been helpful telling it to the people working on SR2 HW forum (Dawns SR2 Input),,,,,,Now that Not saying you can't go there and have input in The next Dawn incarnation or facsimaly ect. Tell them what you thank thell lisen

Quote - The critiqueing time has past, meanig voiceing your idias for improving Dawn would of been helpful telling it to the people working on SR2 HW forum (Dawns SR2 Input),,,,,,Now that Not saying you can't go there and have input in The next Dawn incarnation or facsimaly ect. Tell them what you thank thell lisen

Hivewire's forum is about as bad as this one when it comes to attacking people who critique Dawn... or Dusk. I'm literally afraid of saying anything negative there without them thinking you're a troll.

Quote - This isn't a let's trash Dawn thread. Seriously, you people drive me nuts sometimes. On one hand I have to deal with the Dawn cheerleading section over at Hivewire who don't want you saying anything remotely negative, and then over here where you mention the name, and people attack like piranha.

I see why people have left the Renderosity Forums. Maybe I should join the rush.

Well, if your forum base is mostly stuck in a Poser 7 timewarp, it shouldn't surprise anyone that people are leaving the forums. (And prefer V4 to any other figure)

The thing is - I was really hoping Dawn would let me retire V4. My disappointments are based on the fact that I had such high hopes for the figure. Those hopes were dashed by Chris' lacksidasical approach to developing morphs for the figure (and a corresponding male figure) and the vendors reluctance to do anything other than make yet more generic early 20's Caucasians. Which we already have an overabundance of courtesy of V4.

I have found the Faces of Asia & Faces of Africa products useful for Dawn, but without these types of morphs being available as a merchant resource, figures are limited for the most part to Caucasian only.

If Hivewire had released Dawn AND the full morph set at the same time, the Poser community could have easily moved to the Vicky Who? era. Instead, we had an initial rush which has been reduced to a trickle of content. Another thing that has slowed down my Dawn purchases is the fact that:

1. With Lyrra's fitting room magnets, I can get V4 clothing on Dawn in about 30 seconds. So there isn't actually a need to buy new clothing for Dawn.

2. Most of what is being made (clothing content wise) is the same kind of hookerware that has already saturated the 'Rosity marketplace with V4.

Unfortunately, most vendors imagination doesn't extend beyond "Me too". Seriously, how many strip clubs do we need in Poser?

Quote - > Quote - The critiqueing time has past, meanig voiceing your idias for improving Dawn would of been helpful telling it to the people working on SR2 HW forum (Dawns SR2 Input),,,,,,Now that Not saying you can't go there and have input in The next Dawn incarnation or facsimaly ect. Tell them what you thank thell lisen

Hivewire's forum is about as bad as this one when it comes to attacking people who critique Dawn... or Dusk. I'm literally afraid of saying anything negative there without them thinking you're a troll.

I certainly agree with you on that. I brought up the All Caucasians all the time issue over there five months ago - Chris said to just wait and see. So I did - no change noted.

After waiting 5 months I brought it up again and people seem to only feel comfortable about talking about this issue via PM.

Earl!!

Those sho make a figure, be it Genesis, Dawn, My Michelle, Antonia, or whatever mesh, fall in love with their creation.

LOVE MAKES BLIND !

That is as true in 3D as it is in real life.

Antonia is a good figure, but do not expect a lot as the mesh does not follow body muscles.

I do not have My Michelle so : No comment.

Genesis series "full" version is DS only.

Dawn is an old mesh technology that comes with a oversaturaded painting and a "non" standard jaw setup. (I"ll be polite here, OK?)

So? ? What realistic reactions did you expect? ?

And for each figure?
Their creators are in love with their creation and will defend her to the death.

Start any tread in any forum and expect "fire and flames"!!!!!

And as end result?
V4 is queen and has no competition.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

ssgbrian is right.

They created a hype, and did not deliver.

And then? Oh dear lord.
If a horce is more important then improving the original, or delivering the morphs for free? Or build a male figure? ?

Hello!

They created a hype they did not deliver
Started thinking in dollars but forgetting to make their figure popular first.
First morph pack did not deliver either
Horce
Still not a single "texture" worth the name?

And then continuing to hype "vapor"?

While most end users have thousands of dollars invested in V4???? Hey? ?

They have to rethink their strategy completely. FIRST make a new figure polpular, THEN start thinking in dollars. If you do not have the resources to overcome those two first years? Forget it.

YES,

ANY new HIGH QUALITY figure will require AT LEAST TWO years to win popularity over V4. And Dawn does not have the quality to do that at all.

Only AFTER you have smashed V4 of her throne can you start to think in dollars .

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

PS:

The above is as valid for SM as it is for DAZ as it is for Hivewire or any other 3D content builder.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I use DAWN and greatly enjoy modeling for her, but I refuse to get into another arguement about which figure is better, they ALL have their falts and plus'.

Nice modeling Letherworks. Looks very good.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I don't use Dawn for one simple reason:

I'm done fighting poor rigging to make something work! I know the folks at Hivewire are huge DS fans, but until they put a full fledged, proper Poser rigger on staff, I won't use anything from Hivewire.

Rigging in Daz Studio and then sticking a Poser label on that junk rigging doesn't work. It only results in clothing developers having to fight to make things work. I can do that with V4.

When Hivewire shows enough concern for Poser users to hire a real Poser rigger, I'll consider spending my money on Hivewire rigged models.

The other issues I have with Dawn are

1. Her mouth. Sorry, it's ugly. The Joker mouth just doesn't work for me.

2. Her shoulders. They are AWFUL. Pose her shoulders down and turn her to the side. She looks like a linebacker with boobs.

Quote - 3. Figures built for her are the same collection of generic early 20's Caucasians that populate the V4 universe. It has gone from being annoying to down right creepy. Logan's Run is not the foundation of my artwork (unlike a lot of folks around here).

There are many ethnic characters available for the various figures. Just in the DAZ newsletter I saw in my e-mail today, there are two african characters - one male, one female, from two different vendors. Both for Genesis of course. But the fact is they are there.

Smith Micro has Olivia and 4 generations of Miki. They even included an African, Asian and Hispanic version of Ryan and Alyson in Poser 8.

HiveWire has their Faces of Africa and Asia sets. DAZ has their ethnic morph sets for the Gen4 figures.

Blackhearted made Shae, the african sister to Anastasia. She's one of my favorite characters. But I still don't see her in the galleries.

Vendors are going to produce what makes them the most money, and base their decisions from that on what they enjoy making. If you look in the galleries today, on any of these sites, with all the ethnic options available for vendors to build from, you still find that the predominant character is that "20-something Caucasian gal" because that is what sells the most. It is reflected in TV, movies, magazines, books, comics, every aspect of pop culture. Even many ethnic artists still create that "20-something Caucasian gal", because, for whatever reasons, that is what draws the most attention and opens the most wallets.

The bottom line is that ethnic characters, just like male characters, are a niche market in Poserdom, because they remain a niche market in pop culture.

Looking good Letterworks

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2553938&recent_upload&user_id=422884&member

Some Figure work on Dawn i did call her Julie

Some nude warning for the image Ref in link

And Anastasia thank what she was made from and she a Goddess of Beautiiyyy

Wooo!

If you want to discuss Poser figure development, how about creating a thread about it, so that no particular figures are the subject of the thread, that way it doesn't become a bashing contest.

Most of the points stated here have been repeated over and over, so a thread like this just becomes arguments and encourages negativity.

Same with the similar V4 thread.

Quote - If you want to discuss Poser figure development, how about creating a thread about it, so that no particular figures are the subject of the thread, that way it doesn't become a bashing contest.

Most of the points stated here have been repeated over and over, so a thread like this just becomes arguments and encourages negativity.

Same with the similar V4 thread.

Frankly, if I'd wanted to discuss Poser figure development as a WHOLE, I would have done just that. I wanted to find out from those who used those figures what THEY thought was so great about them and where THEY thought the main weaknesses were. I don't consider Genesis to be a Poser figure anyway, and everytime you bring it up certain people freak out if you mention anything negative about it or DAZ, and frankly Shane, you're a little quick on the draw about locking threads. So I was trying to minimize what apparently happened anyway.

Actually EClark, I posted my message in this thread and your other identical thread, in an attempt to discourage the arguments that are bound to arise from it, and to save it from someone else locking it, because they were about to do just that.

Don't assume I'm the only moderator that watches this forum, locks threads or deletes posts. You all like to accuse me of it, but I'm not always the one responsible.

It's kinda funny. I guess if you visited a runner's forum, you might hear, "I prefer Adidas. I can't stand Nike. They don't fit my feet. But UnderArmor has great compression clothing." I think a swim forum that I frequented had a thread once: "TYR vs Speedo" And back in the days of the full length competition suits, there were some fierce arguments about which had the better tech. I fairly sure that a great many triathletes are very loyal to their favorite brands.

I'm reminded of living in Texas. Within minutes of meeting someone, you'd know whether they were a Ford truck, Chevy truck, or Dodge truck person, whether they drank Bud or Miller, Coke or Pepsi, sweet or unsweetened iced tea, and whether or not they preferred honky tonk to neotraditional country music.

It seems to be natural among humans to divide ourselves into groups. And if it's not blood ties, nationality, religion, class, politics, sports teams or brand names, we'll invent reasons. In my elementary school, kids grouped up depending on whether their favorite color was red or blue. No one admitted to liking green, and the pink/purple thing hadn't taken off. (My favorite 'color' was black -- but there was no goth movement back then that I was aware of.) ;)

I don't think it's because we crave conflict and want, necessarily, to fight over these things. More like a shortcut to getting to know someone. If we like the same "things", regardless of the reasons, we seem to like each other much faster.

All 3d figures have advantages and disadvantages. But any particular figure user might well say, "I use ____ because I like to hang out with other people who use ____." Though we may not always admit it, the social influence on our preferences can be huge. And why not? It's as good a reason as any. But we'll argue that this feature outweighs that bug till we're blue in the face. :)

In the end, it's all a matter of personal taste.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Sometimes bugs become assets.

Some of Poser's most significant features started out as bugs or clever tricks of ingenuity by the more daring, inventive users. I think conformers came about that way. In the early days of Poser the figures came with their clothes built in. Or maybe it was ERCs. Or perhaps both, I can't quite recall.

Back in the old days I used to play a gamed called Ultima Online - was the first true MMO that started that whole craze. It had a lot of bugs. One particular bug was a black dye tub. They weren't supposed to exist in the game. (dye tubs where you added colors to a bucket of water to dye your toon's clothing). Someone managed to create a solid black tub by adding coal to it. Wasn't supposed to happen but it did, and everyone wanted solid black clothing, but no one knew how to make the black dye tubs in the beginning, and those few who did made a LOT of money dying clothes for people, or selling the tub outright. You could also get your tub stolen (cause pickpocketing was a skill, and anything you were carying was a risk you took). Later they became a vet reward for being in the game for a certain period of time, and were given out as gifts at holidays and the bug that caused coal to turn a tub black was removed. Ah, fun times. Now games are just cookie-cutter crap with no real exploration left.

Quote - Actually EClark, I posted my message in this thread and your other identical thread, in an attempt to discourage the arguments that are bound to arise from it, and to save it from someone else locking it, because they were about to do just that.

Don't assume I'm the only moderator that watches this forum, locks threads or deletes posts. You all like to accuse me of it, but I'm not always the one responsible.

Sorry if i accused you of something you didn't do. You do tend to be the most vocal moderator though so might understand if you tend to get the most accusations. That said, I still stand by my earlier statement that somebody's got an itchy trigger finger when comes to locking threads around here.

There have been maybe 2 or 3 threads locked in the last few months. I try to let people discuss what they want to discuss and not make certain topics off limits like other mods have done in the past. But at the same time there are some things that just pull all the trolls out of the woodwork and before I know what's going on there's already 3 or 4 pages of mud slinging because of something one or two people have said. Those are the main things that get threads locked and cause other people to stop posting here.

I do not know about the rest of you but I like Dawn. She's different from Victoria 4 and that is a good thing. Not all the figures have to look a like. However, only recently I gathered up enough expression morphs so Dawn can properly emote.

Also, I'm enjoying the rediscovery of old figures or figures I have not used much. I used Dawn, Stephaine Petite 3, and Victoria 2 in the attached image. I thought it turned out well. And, I am currently working on a comic that uses Victoria 4, Victoria 3, and Alyson 2.

I found using different characters adds wonderful diversity to my renders.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2546996&user_id=422884&np&np

Yep i like her too looking forword to the SR2 and Dusk

Link has bikini nudeity

No, there aren't "many" ethnic characters, AmbientShade. - I own almost all of them :p

We only make Caucasian characters because Caucasian characters are popular and they are popular because we only make Caucasian characters. This is called a positive feedback loop.

OTOH, that doesn't seem to matter to vendors - look at all the vendors that do not make male clothing in 2014 because they had a poorly received article of male clothing in 2004. Which ties into why I have no interest in listening to their whining about low sales.

The whole "NDIATWAS" ties back to the OP's question - I use Dawn, but I would use her more and buy more content for her, if she had more than just a smattering of 20something Caucasians and club wear.

Thankfully, clothing isn't an issue, courtesy of the fitting room (and Xdresser & WW to a lesser extent). The same can be said of character textures courtesy of Texture Transformer. I have money and by god I am willing to spend it - just not on clubware or 20something Caucasians for any figure, not just Dawn.

As an example, we still don't have a middle aged or old figure for Dawn of any ethnicity. So when I need one of those (My stories have people of all ages in them mostly in the 30 - 55 age group - you know, adults) I am reaching for a different figure.

Faces of Asia & Faces of Africa are great products (I own both) - but they aren't merchant resources - which kinda matters when most vendors are "dial spinners" and the company making the figure morphs don't consider ethnic morphs to be important. Again, another example of the positive feedback loop that exists in the Poser/DS world.

Are you really pushing the idea that the folks making NVIATWAS renders are the only demographic that matters? If that is the direction that 'Rosity is going, my money and I will probably migrate to other storefronts.

The more skills I learn because of vendor intransigence, the less I need storefronts like Renderosity. Which is why like other folks in this thread, my purchases at 'Rosity are moving more to things like sets & props and away from characters and clothing.

Quote - No, there aren't "many" ethnic characters, AmbientShade. - I own almost all of them :p

We only make Caucasian characters because Caucasian characters are popular and they are popular because we only make Caucasian characters. This is called a positive feedback loop.

OTOH, that doesn't seem to matter to vendors - look at all the vendors that do not make male clothing in 2014 because they had a poorly received article of male clothing in 2004. Which ties into why I have no interest in listening to their whining about low sales.

LOL, so let me ask you, if you have bills to pay are you going to do the job that makes the money or the one that doesn't simply because someone that has no idea how the job market works (and maybe has no job or expenses) says so?

You may not have interest in hearing about vendors making low sales on the things that you want, but then again the bill collectors have no interest about hearing people whine about not having money to pay the bills. Conversely I think the worker has no interest in someone that says they the should make no money when they have no idea how to do their job.

I think your argument that you repeat so many times have no rational basis in reality. People work to make money to pay their expenses. People can't do jobs that can't cover their expenses, unless they like to live on the street. You can't do it, so I'm not sure why you would asks vendors to; and I'm sure if someone told you to do a particular job (to make them feel better) which meant you would be broke and not pay bills, you would tell them to go jump in a lake. That's pretty much how life works for everyone.

Like any free market system, if there's a demand for it, then people will make it. If there's no demand, then it's not made. I think you can stand on a soapbox and complain that vendors don't do certain things, but I think it's the buying public you should be pointing your finger at. If you see lots of caucasian girls, erotic poses, strip clubs and skimpy clothing in a store, it's because that's what's opening up the customers' wallets. If you want something different, then probably you should pay someone up front to do it for you. It will cost you way more, but at least you have the stuff you want; make sure you have a job that pays for what you want to do, just like the vendors. :)

Quote - Are you really pushing the idea that the folks making NVIATWAS renders are the only demographic that matters? If that is the direction that 'Rosity is going, my money and I will probably migrate to other storefronts.

The paying customers push this idea, not vendors. Remember: demand determines market. In order for vendors to make what you want, there needs to be a compelling demand to do so. One person wanting a black male and 1800's school teacher outfit is not going to sway vendors as much as hundreds of people with their wallets open wanting another bra and panty set with expose morphs and a big breasted caucasian female character. That's simply how the market works. If you want that to change, you have to shift the customers to want the same thing because they hold the power. You can try another store, but they're all selling the same thing, so your runtime is still going to be devoid of the stuff you want.

Quote - The more skills I learn because of vendor intransigence, the less I need storefronts like Renderosity. Which is why like other folks in this thread, my purchases at 'Rosity are moving more to things like sets & props and away from characters and clothing.

I think this is probably the route you should take. If you need characters and clothing vendors can't afford to make, maybe you should learn to make them yourself. I'm guessing that's how some vendors got started: making things no one else wanted to make and carving a niche for themselves. Maybe you could become a vendor and see how vendor life actually is, not how you think it should be. I don't know, but I bet it would be an eye-opening experience for you. ;)

Quote - > Quote - The more skills I learn because of vendor intransigence, the less I need storefronts like Renderosity. Which is why like other folks in this thread, my purchases at 'Rosity are moving more to things like sets & props and away from characters and clothing.

I think this is probably the route you should take. If you need characters and clothing vendors can't afford to make, maybe you should learn to make them yourself. I'm guessing that's how some vendors got started: making things no one else wanted to make and carving a niche for themselves. Maybe you could become a vendor and see how vendor life actually is, not how you think it should be. I don't know, but I bet it would be an eye-opening experience for you. ;)

That's pretty much the very route I've taken. Yeah, I use Roxie and the rest of the natives mainly BECAUSE they need the support. As for being a vendor. I almost wish I wasn't. I was never in it for the money. I doubt that very many people are actually paying that many bills with it as you've got so much competition, including freebie makers giving stuff away.And i still like making stuff for the niche market I've chosen. My one regret with being a vendor now is I had to up my quality game, perhaps a bit before I was ready. I could and would crank out freebie outfits at a rate of one very week or two. You can check my freestuff library. My last vendor item was over a month ago. because I'm selling and I have to take my time and do it right. My big hang-up right now is learning to texture properly, but I'm close to getting that licked and then on to the next goal.

There are 2 ways to go.
Or you learn texturing, or you learn Posers procedural materials.
Both give good results and most depends on the purpose of the item.

In both cases you need good uv maps, and lucky for us Blender hase very good uv mapping tools and uv map editing tools.
I spend as much time sculpting and fine tuning the uvmaps as I do on the modeling.

Oh, and I do not have the link handy right now, but there is a tutorial on youtube of how a guy textures a sword in Blender with incredible results.
And Blender 2.72 beta has improved painting tools.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Let's not argue please.

I'm not saying that's the only demographic that matters, but I'm not a vendor right now - I do custom work for people who can't find what they want or need in the stores, and usually, one custom piece will pay my bills for a week. If I had more time then I would make content to sell in the stores, and in my down time between commissions I do work on content to put in the store, I just haven't had enough time to finish most of that content because I'm usually working on commissions. I have to do what pays me, because I'm one of those artists who do rely on this as my primary source of income - you know, those artists that supposedly don't exist.

Here's -some- of the things the users came up with:

JCM

ERC

Conformers

Geometry switching

Transmapped hair (bows to the Japanese Poser community, particularly Kozaburo)

Just about all the goodies we take for granted were created to get around the P4 limitations, and things like conforming clothing were bug exploitations. DAZ didn't think of any of it, neither did Poser's coders. It was the community.

Aaaaah, Ultima Online. Remember when Lord British got nuked? To have had a camera to record Garriot's expression.....

I was very hopefull when Dawn was first announced and downloaded Dawn when the figure became available. Trouble is I need a reason to move from V4 so any new figure has to do something that V4(WM) does not. Better textures, better bending better expressions the list could go on and on but there needs to something.

Dawn may well be the future but to use her extensively at the moment I would lose some very good skin and eye textures that I have for V4, swap my expression, ethnic and creature morphs for a much more limited list of Dawn morphs and for what? OK some of this I can work around by doing texture conversions but that is more hoops to jump through and again the question is why would I?

I do keep my eye on Dawn and Hivewire and really want them to be successful. Recently I have seen some character morphs for Dawn that I do find tempting but at present there is too little I like for Dawn to allow me to use along side V4 let alone replace her. All in all Dawn is not flexible enough to meet MY needs on a regular basis. For others it will be a different story and I have no issue with that because that is the only way Dawn is going to stay viable long enough to compete.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

I will say this in defense of Dawn and Hivewire. Information about Dawn, Dusk, and what Chris Creek are doing is perhaps too plentiful. People are too impatient about what's coming out and when. I, on the other hand, am not a slave to social media and just have to know what everyone's doing the moment they do it, and two, remember all too well the term "DAZ Soon".

Well I'm sort of breaking my own word here but here goes...

One of the reasons I like Dawn and hope to see her and her "relatives" workout is this. It took DAZ literally YEARS and numerous steps the reach V FOUR. Yes at the moment Dawn is about the same tech as V4 but I hope she will be the jumpoff that will lead to improved figures as time goes on. It's obvious that DAZ will not be making any inovations to thier figures to stretch Posers limits (I don;t blame them for this mind you, they have thier own software to support), Smith Micro just doesn;t have enough people on the payroll to experiment and develope figures (I BELIEVE that they have 2, one modeler and one rigger... I may be wrong... and these two work on any number of non-poser related projects as well). Lastly and sadly, I don;t see the community being as involved in inovations as they used to be.

As stated most of the inovations in poser came from community members not the commercial sector, but a lot (NOT all!) of that innovative energy has gone and people seem to want someone else to do the experimenting and deliever a point and click answer. This won;t happen people! For the reasons above the BIG 2 are out. As far as the merchant base here and at the other sites... they are in this to make money and money (for individuals) isn;t made but experimenting and playing on the fringe, it is made by creating what already sells.

If people want to see figures that use Poser;s full potential it MUST come out of the user base. THis means that if nothing else we need to support those offering inovative attempts, even if they are flawed, and offer CREATIVE comments and criticism not slams and rants! We also need to be willing to PAY for some of these inovations even if they are only baby steps, to encourage the inovators to keep working.

Truthfully I don;t see this happening. What I see is the talent slowly being syphoned of to other areas ( the Antonia team for example) I have yet to see anyone excited about Angela2, Cindy the centaur etc. from Ali at Mankahoo, or the new Centaur at RDNA, all of which I have tried and found more than usefull if not perfect (Mostly in the cosmetic areas and that I can FIX).

These are, naturally, my personal opimions, if anyone is offended by this or wishes to let me know of other examples I'm not aware of, please let me know in site mail, not in this thread.

EDITED TO SAY:

I forgot to say thank you for the kind words on my models!

Quote - Also, what's the next thing they could do to make Dawn even better? For example, I just found out that some vendors are starting to use Poser's animatable joint technology to make Dawn a more versatile figure Like make her Catgirl.

Poser's animatable joint techknology that sounds intriguing do know of ant pics or video showing it being use

Sounds cool

Quote - Sometimes bugs become assets.

Some of Poser's most significant features started out as bugs or clever tricks of ingenuity by the more daring, inventive users. I think conformers came about that way. In the early days of Poser the figures came with their clothes built in. Or maybe it was ERCs. Or perhaps both, I can't quite recall.

Back in the old days I used to play a gamed called Ultima Online - was the first true MMO that started that whole craze. It had a lot of bugs. One particular bug was a black dye tub. They weren't supposed to exist in the game. (dye tubs where you added colors to a bucket of water to dye your toon's clothing). Someone managed to create a solid black tub by adding coal to it. Wasn't supposed to happen but it did, and everyone wanted solid black clothing, but no one knew how to make the black dye tubs in the beginning, and those few who did made a LOT of money dying clothes for people, or selling the tub outright. You could also get your tub stolen (cause pickpocketing was a skill, and anything you were carying was a risk you took). Later they became a vet reward for being in the game for a certain period of time, and were given out as gifts at holidays and the bug that caused coal to turn a tub black was removed. Ah, fun times. Now games are just cookie-cutter crap with no real exploration left.

I remember Ultima Online. :) I never played it, though. For online multiuser play, I always preferred MUDs. Not sure why. I guess your game engine has to be fairly compelling for a text based game to be interesting. The fact that MUDs were basically built by individuals with individual creativity and imagination (rather than industry catering to the mass market) may be why I enjoyed them. These days, I suppose that creative impulse from the gaming community (as opposed to the gaming industry) goes into modding.

Yes, to the bugs-to-assets point. :) Amazing what the human brain can come up with, when users are given the chance to develop assets.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Attached Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogVjot24X20

> Quote - > Quote - Also, what's the next thing they could do to make Dawn even better? For example, I just found out that some vendors are starting to use Poser's animatable joint technology to make Dawn a more versatile figure Like make her Catgirl. > > Poser's animatable joint techknology that sounds intriguing do know of ant pics or video showing it being use > > Sounds cool

Here's the Poser demo. My fear with this is that no one will create the different types of morphs on figures that will use the AJCs.

That workflow to set up a new shape makes me cringe...

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Quote - That workflow to set up a new shape makes me cringe...

All you're doing is dragging a joint center from one point to another and recording it. What's cringe worthy about that? Basically, everything else was converting Andy to weightmapping because he isn't a weightmapped figure.

Quote - > Quote - That workflow to set up a new shape makes me cringe...

All you're doing is dragging a joint center from one point to another and recording it. What's cringe worthy about that? Basically, everything else was converting Andy to weightmapping because he isn't a weightmapped figure.

You would have to understand steps to do the same thing in DS:

Enter Joint editor tool
Right click on shape, select "Adjust Rigging To shape"
Click "OK"

Done.

(You can also select which joints and surfaces of the mesh you wanted as well, that takes about another 20 seconds to figure out which)

I agree that it is unfair to compare Dawn to V4 at this present time as V4 has been around a long time and has time to mature. I watch Dawn with interest and I have not written her off for the future.

As to being impatient, well I am not in general but I do think that the hype of Dawn long before she was available did Dawn a dis-service. Personal opinion, but I think she would have made more of an impact if there had been basic and ++ type morphs available from day one.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - > Quote - That workflow to set up a new shape makes me cringe...

All you're doing is dragging a joint center from one point to another and recording it. What's cringe worthy about that? Basically, everything else was converting Andy to weightmapping because he isn't a weightmapped figure.

Compare that to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxrKgb_US64

When you have a heavy development cycle, you need tools to work accurate and as quick as possible. I don't the have time to do manual guess work where joints should go when auto rigging does it better and quicker. Probably why Dawn was rigged in Daz first and then ported over. Time is money, especially when you do this full time.

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I tried the Poser rigging tool at first but when you have over 60 morphs to do at a time where the rig has to be changed, well, you can understand where I am coming from. My point is, if the tool workflows in Poser were improved, I guarentee you would see more content for Dawn and even Native Poser characters.

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You're not thinking outside the box Zev0.

AJCs have a lot of power, if they're designed the right way. Clothing follows them, and morphs in PP2014 are transferrable by a single click.

And anyway, this isn't a discussion about DS, the thread title says Poser, so let's keep DS out of it cause we all know where that usually goes. That way we can keep the hostilities to a minimum.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - That workflow to set up a new shape makes me cringe...

All you're doing is dragging a joint center from one point to another and recording it. What's cringe worthy about that? Basically, everything else was converting Andy to weightmapping because he isn't a weightmapped figure.

You would have to understand steps to do the same thing in DS:

Enter Joint editor tool

Right click on shape, select "Adjust Rigging To shape"

Click "OK"

Done.

(You can also select which joints and surfaces of the mesh you wanted as well, that takes about another 20 seconds to figure out which)

No one's bringing up DS. In fact, I started two seperate threads in order to NOT bring up DS because somebody (I won't say who) starts whining that we're bashing DAZ and DS and ends up getting the thread locked. You want to talk about using Dawn in DS, please go start your own thread.

Yes, like Clark said. We're talking about Poser here.

Yes but Eclarke said:

"All you're doing is dragging a joint center from one point to another and recording it. What's cringe worthy about that?"

I posted an answer to his question, so he would unterstand why Zev (and also I) cringed at the workflow to make those AJCs.

He did want to know why, did he not?

Quote - You're not thinking outside the box Zev0.

AJCs have a lot of power, if they're designed the right way. Clothing follows them, and morphs in PP2014 are transferrable by a single click.

If AJC's have so much power, then why isn't it being used more? How many products on market use this feature? I am not arguing what it can or cannot do, but the practicality of its workflow and implementation, which does send people looking the other way.

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Quote - > Quote - You're not thinking outside the box Zev0.

AJCs have a lot of power, if they're designed the right way. Clothing follows them, and morphs in PP2014 are transferrable by a single click.

If AJC's have so much power, then why isn't it being used more? How many products on market use this feature? I am not arguing what it can or cannot do, but the practicality of its workflow and implementation, which does send people looking the other way.

Well all i know is i never hered of it untill this thread so that mite be reasen most people just don't know about it

Yes and the point has been made.

Faster is not always better, and can sometimes be a lot more limiting. But of course it has its benefits as well.

It's best to experiment with AJCs on a serious level in order to actually learn the various benefits of them and what can really be done. I see them as probably Poser's most useful asset for anyone looking to build a next gen Poser figure, especially when combined with all the other rigging tools that are available in the program. The problem is, no one has produced a figure that really demonstrates it.

Sure there are people who won't want to deal with them, but for others who do, the possibilities are pretty far-reaching. They do give a lot more control over your figure than what the classic Poser rigging has provided before.

And of course they have room for improvement, but custom scripts can handle a lot of what they don't already have built into them at the moment.

Quote - If AJC's have so much power, then why isn't it being used more?

Probably because most people haven't even paid attention to it, as 722 just demonstrated. > Quote - How many products on market use this feature?

As far as I know of, none currently. Because there aren't any figures that actually use it. At least none that anyone is using, or vocalizing. I'm not sure what ways Dawn is using them - if it's HW3D that have incorporated them in, or if it's vendors creating add-ons for her that use them. Haven't investigated that yet.

Dawn has a Catgirl morph available at Hivewire that does use the AJC. And I've been told that there are a couple of toons there as well that also make use of it.

Quote - If AJC's have so much power, then why isn't it being used more? How many products on market use this feature? I am not arguing what it can or cannot do, but the practicality of its workflow and implementation, which does send people looking the other way.

For the same reason that half of my Dawn purchases follow Poser 6 conventions instead of Poser 9+. Too many vendors are unwilling to leave Poser 6 conventions behind; nor are they willing to learn the features that have been added to the last 3 or 4 versions of Poser.

In my conversations with vendors over the past couple of years, they have made it quite clear that they don't care what features have been added to Poser - they aren't going to use them, lest they annoy the few remaining Poser 6 holdouts. Pointing out that Dawn is a Poser 9+ figure and these theoretical Poser 6 users can't actually use Dawn doesn't matter to them.

It's dumb, but imo, it is what happens when vendors decide that it is all about their experience rather than the customer's experience.

Sad, but true.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - > Quote - If AJC's have so much power, then why isn't it being used more? How many products on market use this feature? I am not arguing what it can or cannot do, but the practicality of its workflow and implementation, which does send people looking the other way.

For the same reason that half of my Dawn purchases follow Poser 6 conventions instead of Poser 9+. Too many vendors are unwilling to leave Poser 6 conventions behind; nor are they willing to learn the features that have been added to the last 3 or 4 versions of Poser.

In my conversations with vendors over the past couple of years, they have made it quite clear that they don't care what features have been added to Poser - they aren't going to use them, lest they annoy the few remaining Poser 6 holdouts. Pointing out that Dawn is a Poser 9+ figure and these theoretical Poser 6 users can't actually use Dawn doesn't matter to them.

It's dumb, but imo, it is what happens when vendors decide that it is all about their experience rather than the customer's experience.

I don't know about that. I've seen a few vendors attempt to make items that were for Poser 9+, for example Sixus, but currently he's back to making items for Poser 7-8 compatiblitity. Is that because he was unwilling to learn the new features, or no one was buyng his 9+ creations?

It is curious though that there hasn't been many people that has morphed Dawn into characters beyond toons.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - If AJC's have so much power, then why isn't it being used more? How many products on market use this feature? I am not arguing what it can or cannot do, but the practicality of its workflow and implementation, which does send people looking the other way.

For the same reason that half of my Dawn purchases follow Poser 6 conventions instead of Poser 9+. Too many vendors are unwilling to leave Poser 6 conventions behind; nor are they willing to learn the features that have been added to the last 3 or 4 versions of Poser.

In my conversations with vendors over the past couple of years, they have made it quite clear that they don't care what features have been added to Poser - they aren't going to use them, lest they annoy the few remaining Poser 6 holdouts. Pointing out that Dawn is a Poser 9+ figure and these theoretical Poser 6 users can't actually use Dawn doesn't matter to them.

It's dumb, but imo, it is what happens when vendors decide that it is all about their experience rather than the customer's experience.

I don't know about that. I've seen a few vendors attempt to make items that were for Poser 9+, for example Sixus, but currently he's back to making items for Poser 7-8 compatiblitity. Is that because he was unwilling to learn the new features, or no one was buyng his 9+ creations?

It is curious though that there hasn't been many people that has morphed Dawn into characters beyond toons.

I can only speak from my personal experience. My Roxie and Miki4 items are very good sellers. Are they on the same level as the Gen4 ones? Not compared to the one M4 product I have out, but not awful either. I'm happy with my sales. I have never put a V4 product in a store as I prefer to support the undersupported figures. Although, I do have a V4 set coming out soon.

Of course, I don't do 3D products for my livlihood, either.....it's still a hobby for me. I'm lucky that I have another source of income.

However, my interaction with vendors who do V4 almost exclusively has nothing to do with the "tech" and everything to do with producing product in the fastest way possible. They are all setup to work with V4 and have all their base rigging and refining basically automated so that they can go from modeler to rigging to texture as fast as possible. As was said earlier, for these folks, time is money and they need to put automation to as much as they can.

There's no "automation" to Poser weight map rigging for clothing and props. It's still a new process that is painstaking and slower than saving a CR2 and plugging in a new object. As the technology ages, that automation will progress and more vendors will adopt it.

I don't use DS4, but I understand it's much more automated to do weight mapping than in Poser. The problem with that approach is the cookie cutter stuff you see - cookie cutter poses, cookie cutter movement, cookie cutter morphs. Fitting room rigging in PP14 also automates a great deal of the process in Poser and leaves the "refinements" for the vendor to do.

The Poser Fitting Room for weight map rigging was/is an incredible boon to riggers and will make adoption of weight mapped figures faster and easier for vendors.

The automation is to spead up the process, whether you want to fine tune afterwards is up to you, but in most cases, the automated process is good enough. All depends how far you are willing to go and what it is you want to deliver.

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Umm, there is no secret "Power of AJS" that's waiting to be unleashed by a clever Poser rigger.

Here's a little secret:

The thing that makes Genesis work ARE "Animated Joint Centers"

And why do you think the script to re-fit Genesis clothing in Poser is called "Transfer active Morphs" ? Here's a clue: It transfers Morphs !

It also projects weightmaps.

Just like Poser!

Why do you think DSON is able to load Genesis into Poser in the first place?

Because while different in details, the basic principle between Poser and DAZ rigging is still the same.

So, no, Poser rigging has no "secret advantage" over DAZ rigging. None, nada, njet, nix, zero, zilch.

Combine that with the fact that DAZ has the much more advanced rigging tools (Autorigging in seconds vs hours of manual joint center adjustement) and you know why there is not a single figure out there making use of all those newfangled PP-2014 rigging features.

If you use AJS in Poser figure rigging, you get a bad copy of Genesis.

Woohoo!

Taking you much more time and jumping through hoops to support than the original.

Please, before you make statements for everybody else to read (and take as fact), inform yourself about the technology you're talking about.

I mean, really....

:-(

"The Poser Fitting Room for weight map rigging was/is an incredible boon to riggers and will make adoption of weight mapped figures faster and easier for vendors."

The "Fitting Room" is just a crude combination of Morph Brush and Cloth room/SetUp room functionallity.

You could do everything it does since Poser 7.

The only difference is that doing the conversion manually was faster because you hadn't to do that much "trial and error".

Lol.

It's one of the many "features" in PP-2014 that are basically useless if you expect more than average "hobbyist" quality.

Personally, I definitely wouldn't pay for any product that used the "Fitting Room".

No Genesis, no DS talk, please. Any AJC work you do in Poser is not going to work in Studio anyway, so why bother? And no, that is NOT an invitation to discuss it.

Well, if we can't talk about Genesis and DS, let's keep on talking about cars, like in that other thread, shall we ?

Here's a little story I just heard:

Company "P" builds a car with three wheels and a 100HP engine and it is just $500.

"P" drivers are enthusistic, but after a while notice that most cars on the streets are built by company "D".

A "P" driver asks a "D" driver, why he doesn't drive a "P" car, and the "D" driver says it's because his car has four wheels and a 200HP engine AND it was FREE.

Now the "P" driver hits the "D" driver over the head and calls the Police, claiming that the "D" driver insulted him and hurt his feelings and he should be banned from the streets and noone should talk about the "D" car ever again, because they are obviously very bad people.

Glad it's just a story, because in real live,

people would never act that stupid, now would they ?

:-)

Only car story I have is a car with a bunch of teenagers got in an accident because the kid in the back lit the driver's armpit hair with a lighter... but the driver got blamed for the accident... cause it's alway's the drivers fault.

Strange the two big words that jump out for me in the title of the thread was Poser and Dawn. Yet, as is often the case, we are talking about a different figure and different software next comes the complaints that discussion is being stiffled and the thread gets locked.

I don't use Dawn and I have given my reasons why and also laid out my hopes for the future. I am interested in other people views but in this thread I am looking for peoples views of Dawn and Poser. For other figures I will look for threads with titles that may be relevant not hunt all the threads in the hope that a thread has been hijacked to cover something I am interested in but unrelated to the thread title.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - "The Poser Fitting Room for weight map rigging was/is an incredible boon to riggers and will make adoption of weight mapped figures faster and easier for vendors."

The "Fitting Room" is just a crude combination of Morph Brush and Cloth room/SetUp room functionallity.

You could do everything it does since Poser 7.

The only difference is that doing the conversion manually was faster because you hadn't to do that much "trial and error".

Lol.

It's one of the many "features" in PP-2014 that are basically useless if you expect more than average "hobbyist" quality.

Personally, I definitely wouldn't pay for any product that used the "Fitting Room".

This whole statement just proves you've never used the Poser Fitting Room to rig anything.

Here's a clue....there's no "Fitting" involved.

And, I can and DO still rig using my copy of DS3A. Your point would be what?

And I never said AJCs had anything over DS. I said they are much more powerful than anyone is giving them credit for, because most people don't seem to want to explore and learn what they are capable of, they just want to complain.

And the next post that mentions DS is getting deleted. I'm sick of people turning every thread about Poser's features into a "but DS can do this better." If you think that, that's great. Go use DS and stop poluting the Poser forum threads with your crap and turning every thread into an argument.

Poser is capable of most everything DS is capable of, it just requires a different approach. The only thing it's currently not capable of is auto texture swapping (can be done with scripts) and HD morphs. Everything else can be done with scripts, because that's all DS is doing. They just built those scripts into the program.

I use DS and Poser equally, and any other software I need to get the job done.

Thank You.

AmbientShade

Quote - Poser is capable of most everything DS is capable of, it just requires a different approach. The only thing it's currently not capable of is auto texture swapping (can be done with scripts) and HD morphs. Everything else can be done with scripts, because that's all DS is doing. They just built those scripts into the program.

That was my original point. The approach of the tools. They require more hoops that makes developing using those tools very unpleasant. Which in the long run leads to why the majority of people haven't bothered with these features. Hense my original comment, about why it makes me cringe. The workflows are old and outdated.

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And most people are not figure designers. They're texture artists and dial spinners.

When you're designing a figure its an entirely different field.

You have to consider the market you're designing it for, who you want to use it and what you want it to be capable of, all while looking at all the other figures that are currently available. Then find ways to make content creation for that figure easy on the vendors that you hope will support that figure.

Poser provides most of those tools, and the means to incorporate scripts that will add features in for the tools that it doesn't yet have. It just doesn't provide a figure that utilizes those tools to the best of their advantage, and so far no one else has actually put the effort in to designing a figure that does either.

Actually no, some of us have.

Apollo Maximus?

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

Apollo was built long before any of these new rigging features were introduced. But I suspect he is the basis for the concept behind a lot of the figures that have come along since.

It's unfortunate that his creator went balistic and abandoned him and won't allow anyone else to develop him further. If that weren't the case, it's quite possible that Apollo and Apollina (or whatever his female counterpart's name might have been) would be the reigning king and queen of Poser today as the design was pretty ahead of its time, at least in poserdom.

Yea I paid for that one too.

Anyone wanna kickstart a Male figure suite of similar epicness?

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

Well hivewire is releasing Dusk, you can ask them to implement some epic features before it goes live. Doubt a figure from an individual without major company backing will hit it off. It's been tried before. You need marketing budget etc and heavy promotion.

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Naahh I want something better than an EULA

Oh and I Don't Want Another Emasculated Andro Thing marketed as male

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

Ye, he does look kinda feminine. But I always give a benefit of the doubt. Let's see what happens.

My Renderosity Store

As a morph of Dawn HeShe completely Lacks Anatomic Parts

So we appear to be speaking two separate languages

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

Oh ye the bits story. Renderotica to the rescue I suppose.

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But why should I pay anything for a figure for children

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

That's up to you, but some will just to show their support. I don't do that. I support what works for me.

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How about a kickstart on a discernably Male figure project on the scale of Apollo Max or M4 with Morph++. maybe Rex fixes upgrades. Say $80 from 250 crowd fund group plus Rendo sales that's $20,000+

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

Sorry I started a drift I'll move over to a fig. dev thread

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

Ye this idea is best suited under its own thread. That way based on thread title you can get a more accurate indication of interest in such an idea. Having it in this thread is not going to work lol.

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Jim, check your PMs.

Historically, everyone used the same platform ( Poser 4 ) and it was easier to build a large customer base by releasing one character that was widely popular ( Posette ) and improving on that character ( Vicki1)... and repeating this cycle... on through Vicki4. But, the single platform customer base had been split.

Dawn cannot use the same selling strategy as the Vicki's had built over years.

There's a Poser crowd that refuses to use the newer versions of Poser.
There's a DAz Studio 4 crowd that is mesmerized by Genesis
and... there's a progressive Poser crowd that uses newer Poser and welcomes new tech

Dawn's selling point of being the ONLY figure able to be used in Poser 9+ and DAZ4+... that is her strongpoint... in theory. DAz users probably could care less about her. Dawn is really a sell to the Poser crowds... (1) and (3).

Crowd 1 is the biggest consumers... they don't want to figure stuff out... they wanna load it and render it ( I'm generalizing and someone's gonna yell at me - but I bet this is true for the majority - heh )

Crowd 3 tries to figure everything out on their own as much as they can and so they buy less

Crwod 1 is your target customer base but they are using a platform Dawn will not work in...

how do you convince Crowd 1 to buy Poser 9+ so they can use Dawn?

How do you make Dawn more appealing than V4 whose sales are still going strong?

These forum tech brainiacs have convined me to ( kicking and dragging and whining ) use Poser Pro 2014 and now I'd invest in Dawn... if she had more than just a bunch of character sets.

Vendors who want to support dawn will have to think long-term... the payoffs will come later. Her content is not going to sell like hotcakes right now... but, the more and more vendor support she gets... the more and more the snowball effect will occur and customers will start slowly picking up.

So, in my opinion, the historical way the Vicki's have progressed... this model will not work for Dawn... vendors will have to take a risk that 6 months to a year later... sudeenly sales will pick up... but it will take a bunch of vendors to make that commitment.

THEN her ability to work on Poser without needing to run a DSON through your toaster and watch the streetlights dim... Dawn working natively in Poser will then become a major selling point when she has lots of content available to support her.

My two cents

( forgive my typos - I'm not going to go back and edit this long soapbox speech :P )

Quote - Dawn's selling point of being the ONLY figure able to be used in Poser 9+ and DAZ4+... that is her strongpoint... in theory. DAz users probably could care less about her. Dawn is really a sell to the Poser crowds... (1) and (3).

Don't be so sure. There's a number of Studio users who are absolutely in love with Dawn. I haven't figured out why just yet, although I suppose I could just ask them, but they prefer to use her. Their biggest pet-peeve seems to be that most of the releases for Dawn tend to be Poser-centric, so if I were to start making things for Dawn, I'd probably aim for this group.

There is no coming back for Dawn to be honest. We have all seen this pattern before. She has already tapered off. I do not see her attracting vendors, because her business model is flawed. And in 6 months to a years time, nothing would have changed. Reality is she will never be a figure that attracts major vendor support on a mass scale.

That ship has already sailed. She had her shot, and if you can't keep vendors during that initial launch period, they hardly give a figure a second chance. You will need to seriously convince them why they should. Money talks, and if those vendors initially made good money with her, they would have continued supporting her, but most off them didn't and returned to the tried and trusted. Unless all Poser users have a version that can use her, she doesn't stand a chance of gaining mass support. She is a niche figure, simple as that, and I do not see all Poser users upgrading just for her. Vendors have bills to pay, they need security. A bank will not infest in you if you are a risk, that is how vendors determine what figure to invest in. If it's risky, they will pass. Many have taken risks before and got burned, so they are more cautious the next time around. Yes it is nice to be hopeful, but there is a difference between that and ignorance.

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I will not buy anything Genesis... unless it works in Poser natively like Vicki4.

I have a hard time believing that in this view point I'm one buyer alone. This IS why Renderosity flourishes with V4 product sales still today.

For this reason... if vendors support her... Dawn is like a Stephanie3 ( that Stephanie 4 never was )... and she might find a customer base.

Dawn has some very fantastic character sets.... but very little clothes

I'm using the word 'natively' like it's a word... I don't think it is ( ha ha )... but I think folks get what I mean... lotza luv

Ok there is all this native talk. Please explain what you mean by works natively, and how working natively change anything? I'm not trying to be funny, I am just curious. Is it a performance issue or what exactly?

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Ha ha!

What I mean is...

Vicki 4 in Poser.

Shes in your library ( in Poser ) you load her in and she is ready to go. She can have no morphs active or whatever morphs you want.

So what I mean by 'native' is that V4 works in Poser without any outside utlities and you can manipulate her however you wish inside Poser with nothing else needed.

For Genesis to run in Poser... you have to use an 'importer'... Genesis is not a citizen of Poser... it has to be imported and it's morphs and capabilities all depend on some outside circumstances out of Poser's control.

V4 sales in the Renderosity Marketplace remain strong because who wants to use Genesis in Poser when you have to go through the importer hoops and trials and tribulations?...

Dawn also works in Poser without an importer

Natively is a bad word - my bad

Dawn working in Poser WITHOUT any import method... is her strong selling point... to Poser users

It should be self explanatory. There are no hoops to jump through to get V4 to work in Poser. There are many users who do not want to use anything but Poser, and many of them haven't upgraded to P9+.

(eta: x-posted the above w/ coleman)

But there have been several sales of P10 and PP2014 with drastic cuts on the price, making it very affordable for those who weren't necessarily able to upgrade right away before. So that will naturally have broadened the user base of P10. There are also other websites that still have P9 and PP2012 for sale, and have at times cut the prices rather drastically, again increasing the userbase.

The difference with Poser is that you have to pay for your upgrades, and a lot of people don't upgrade right away. It takes them a good while to do so, either due to their finances or just not seeing anything that really stands out to them innitially. The economy hasn't been all that great for the last several years, so a lot of people can't afford upgrading software when they have other things in RL that are much more pressing.

So this is going to affect how well a new figure that requires that software is going to be recieved innitially. Vendors that attempted to incorporate the newer features into their content back when P9 was new, that are not supported by older versions, were likely not all that impressed with their sales early on so they gave up on it and went back to building content that was compatible with the last 10 years of Poser versions. Today their sales should be stronger for content with those features because there are many more users that have upgraded since then.

I don't think Dawn is a doomed figure. She still has a loyal following who are supportive of her development and her developers. But like Coleman said, it's going to take time for that appeal to grow. HW3D are still developing for her, so they must be making enough from her currently to consider it beneficial to continue.

Quote - Dawn's selling point of being the ONLY figure able to be used in Poser 9+ and DAZ4+... that is her strongpoint... in theory. DAz users probably could care less about her. Dawn is really a sell to the Poser crowds... (1) and (3).

My Michelle over at RDNA is backwards compatible with both Poser and DS, so Dawn is not the only figure.

My only concern is by the time all users are on the new standard Eg all have upgraded, it will be too late for Dawn, and there probably will be another figure populating their interests. With a figure you have to act now, not wait down the line for it to grow. We simply do not have that luxury anymore. It was easier for V4 because she never really had any competition at the time, for a good couple of years actually.

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Except for V4, Dawn already has more support than any other native Poser figure. And in 2 or three years, we'll probably be seeing Dawn 2.

Quote - It should be self explanatory. There are no hoops to jump through to get V4 to work in Poser. There are many users who do not want to use anything but Poser, and many of them haven't upgraded to P9+.

(eta: x-posted the above w/ coleman)

Then it's curious that several major vendors at rendo has hoop jumped to make V6 clothing, characters, poses and props over making things for native dawn. Some of those same vendors have set up shop over at DAZ too and not Hivewire. And some vendors that were staunchly against genesis have made items for them after their Dawn offering flopped and ended up on rendo's hot list a few weeks back.

Sounds like more people would rather hoop jump than load up Poser native Dawn.

Quote - But there have been several sales of P10 and PP2014 with drastic cuts on the price, making it very affordable for those who weren't necessarily able to upgrade right away before. So that will naturally have broadened the user base of P10. There are also other websites that still have P9 and PP2012 for sale, and have at times cut the prices rather drastically, again increasing the userbase.

I got my upgrade to Poser 10 through a mac bundle (with 5 other mac programs) along with Anime Studio pro for $39.

That's like almost giving it away.

Quote - The difference with Poser is that you have to pay for your upgrades, and a lot of people don't upgrade right away. It takes them a good while to do so, either due to their finances or just not seeing anything that really stands out to them innitially. The economy hasn't been all that great for the last several years, so a lot of people can't afford upgrading software when they have other things in RL that are much more pressing.

I think the most important thing in upgrades is that people will upgrade, regardless of finances, if there is a compelling reason to do so. If there is a must have feature, people especially those of us that are addicted to buying content, we will find a way to scrape up that money to get the product. It sounds like Smith Micro isn't there yet. If my tipping point is $10 when I got it in a bundle of mac programs I wanted, I think that's a problem that SM needs to look at.

I think SM's focus is more on resusing their and 3rd party content: from the fitting room, SSS to make older figures look better, to the game edition where their whole 5gb library can be licensed for games. I don't think they're particularly focused on figures and from the way these threads pop up from time to time about figures, maybe they should divert a little attention to that and not rely upon others to fill that void.

That said, I think the Poser group may be reluctant to do it because developing a good versatile figure sounds like it's a huge investment to do. And with SM's largest division, mobile, on shaky ground I don't think they'll be able to ask for a lot of money to do it either.

Quote - So this is going to affect how well a new figure that requires that software is going to be recieved innitially. Vendors that attempted to incorporate the newer features into their content back when P9 was new, that are not supported by older versions, were likely not all that impressed with their sales early on so they gave up on it and went back to building content that was compatible with the last 10 years of Poser versions. Today their sales should be stronger for content with those features because there are many more users that have upgraded since then.

True, however failure is a strong motivator not to repeat doing something.

Quote - I don't think Dawn is a doomed figure. She still has a loyal following who are supportive of her development and her developers. But like Coleman said, it's going to take time for that appeal to grow. HW3D are still developing for her, so they must be making enough from her currently to consider it beneficial to continue.

I think the founders are pretty much in a position to burn through money because they are not necessarily reliant upon putting out product to make a living.

However the vendors are. I don't think Dawn was well received by the customers otherwise vendors would have kept releasing items for her. It looks like either those vendors either went back to V4, moved to V6 or are making items that work for both V4 and V6. There's an occasional Dawn item in the store, but the most support I've seen are hair fits.

And from looking at Hivewire's store, it looks like VanishingPoint has taken over. The first page is full of their back catalog you can get here. I'm thinking Hivewire has backed off its exclusivity clause because you can get the same things here as well as their own site as well. A good chunk of their items are props rather than figures. It seems like a lot of their major vendors that initially made product has went back over to DAZ, probably made more money there. The ones are left are a few that release over at contentparadise as well.

Quote - That said, I think the Poser group may be reluctant to do it because developing a good versatile figure sounds like it's a huge investment to do.

It's not as huge of an investment as you might think. But that depends on what your definition of "huge" is.

Mostly it just takes finding the right talent, and paying them what that talent deserves to be paid. There are a lot of character artists out there who can sculpt a realistic figure that looks like a photo, no 3D scanners necessary. It's an art form just as anything else and some of those artists put everything they have into it. Rigging is another talent, as is understanding proper mesh construction for animation. These skills don't just come from playing around in apps like Wings. They have to be trained and the skills have to be honed. When you combine those 3 aspects into one team you can produce some pretty nice results. The trick is finding the right team and getting them to want to work for you, and with each other.

Poser's figures have pretty much always been sourced from 3d party artists and companies, at least until around P8. I think that's when they started using in-house character artists.

Boy, there's an awful lot of assumptions going on in this thread.

First, that Dawn stuff doesn't sell here. Well, that's assumption and BS, frankly. You don't have those numbers and you don't have any facts. Hell, half the people in this thread don't even know how Renderosity operates.

Dawn items being sold here are just like any other - they go into clearance and on sale just like any other product. And Renderosity's "rules and regs" are different than those at RDNA.

No one posting here has Dawn sales numbers and they have no idea how Dawn products have sold or not sold. I'd suggest everyone stop using conjecture.

Here's one clue....take a look at the What's Hot page here. You'll see a whole lot more Dawn than you will Genesis on that page. Based on my observations (and that's all they are) Genesis at Renderosity does far worse than Dawn ever did. So, does that mean Genesis is a failure? Of course not. It's one store of many.

As I said, I don't use Dawn based on personal preference. But, my own opinion is just that - opinion.

I just have to wonder if all this doom and gloom for Dawn isn't just professional jealousy and fear that she might actually succeed and supplant our other favorites.

It's simple for vendors.....when customers stop buying every V4 character and every V4 outfit put on the market, the vendors will move to the figure that sells like V4 does.

So far, the V4 vendors are just fine selling more V4.

Looked at Whats Hot. I see about 10 G1 or G2 related products first top 4 pages and none for Dawn. Just an observation. I think you are making assumptions, but I am just assuming here.

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Looking at trends there appears to be more stuff for both Genesis and Dawn in the last few months, both here and a RDNA so it appears that such items might be selling better. Just an observation but of course this still does not match V4 items, that will take time.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - Here's one clue....take a look at the What's Hot page here. You'll see a whole lot more Dawn than you will Genesis on that page. Based on my observations (and that's all they are) Genesis at Renderosity does far worse than Dawn ever did. So, does that mean Genesis is a failure? Of course not. It's one store of many.

Ok, let's take a look at the hot page as you suggested. We'll walk through it together:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/?sb=hottest

The top spot, "DM's Fairy Pavilion", which is a prop set with poses for V4 and V6. And the props are in both Poser and DAZ Native formats.

There's a few V4 items, as expected. The SAV Athena hair has V4, Dawn and Genesis fits. That's good.

Let's keep going.

Ok we have Sabby Brenda for V6, followed by OOT's leather suit for Genesis 2 females. No Dawn only products yet, but I'm sure she's here because you said that there's more Dawn stuff than Genesis. More V4 stuff, so she's good.

Ok now we have some M4 stuff, which is in short supply. PD Tom also has a support and a morph for the Genesis 2 Male (using the M4 morph). So there's another Genesis 2 item.

No Dawn items except for the hair fit on the first page? Didn't you say she was here? Oh well, let's try the second page.

More V4 stuff she's well taken care of, that's for sure :)

Ok there's a Tough Girls Pose set that supports V4 and V6, so there's another Genesis 2 item.

There's some props (I like the rundown shack btw) and V4 stuff.

SAV's alpha scalp is back in the hot list, with good reason... with M4,V4, Anastasia fits, and a native Genesis prop in duf format.. so there's another genesis item.

Then there's some boots for the Genesis 2 female by lilflame. Then more V4 and another M4 character.

No Dawn items on that page either.

Third page has more V4 stuff, then Beach Club hair for V4 and Genesis 2 females. No fits for dawn though. Also another OOT outfit for Genesis 2 Females is there.

Page 4? Yep, more V4 and Genesis 2 female items and no Dawn.

So I took your advice and unless Dawn is spelled G-E-N-E-S-I-S, I think your statement is incorrect, because I just walked you through the opposite of what you just said.

Quote - > Quote - Here's one clue....take a look at the What's Hot page here. You'll see a whole lot more Dawn than you will Genesis on that page. Based on my observations (and that's all they are) Genesis at Renderosity does far worse than Dawn ever did. So, does that mean Genesis is a failure? Of course not. It's one store of many.

Ok, let's take a look at the hot page as you suggested. We'll walk through it together:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/?sb=hottest

The top spot, "DM's Fairy Pavilion", which is a prop set with poses for V4 and V6. And the props are in both Poser and DAZ Native formats.

There's a few V4 items, as expected. The SAV Athena hair has V4, Dawn and Genesis fits. That's good.

Let's keep going.

Ok we have Sabby Brenda for V6, followed by OOT's leather suit for Genesis 2 females. No Dawn only products yet, but I'm sure she's here because you said that there's more Dawn stuff than Genesis. More V4 stuff, so she's good.

Ok now we have some M4 stuff, which is in short supply. PD Tom also has a support and a morph for the Genesis 2 Male (using the M4 morph). So there's another Genesis 2 item.

No Dawn items except for the hair fit on the first page? Didn't you say she was here? Oh well, let's try the second page.

More V4 stuff she's well taken care of, that's for sure :)

Ok there's a Tough Girls Pose set that supports V4 and V6, so there's another Genesis 2 item.

There's some props (I like the rundown shack btw) and V4 stuff.

SAV's alpha scalp is back in the hot list, with good reason... with M4,V4, Anastasia fits, and a native Genesis prop in duf format.. so there's another genesis item.

Then there's some boots for the Genesis 2 female by lilflame. Then more V4 and another M4 character.

No Dawn items on that page either.

Third page has more V4 stuff, then Beach Club hair for V4 and Genesis 2 females. No fits for dawn though. Also another OOT outfit for Genesis 2 Females is there.

Page 4? Yep, more V4 and Genesis 2 female items and no Dawn.

So I took you advice and unless Dawn is spelled G-E-N-E-S-I-S, I think your statement is incorrect, because I just walked you through the opposite of what you just said.

ROFL, OK, I was talking over a period of time, but whatever you say. How long have you been watching the What's Hot page? Me? About 6 weeks......I see a trend. You have a single day snapshot, and V4 + Genesis products, now that's hysterical.

Once again, I see a complete lack of facts.

Quote - Looking at trends there appears to be more stuff for both Genesis and Dawn in the last few months, both here and a RDNA so it appears that such items might be selling better. Just an observation but of course this still does not match V4 items, that will take time.

True RDNA seems to have more for Dawn lately than Rendo.

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Quote -
ROFL, OK, I was talking over a period of time, but whatever you say. How long have you been watching the What's Hot page? Me? About 6 weeks......I see a trend. You have a single day snapshot, and V4 + Genesis products, now that's hysterical.

Once again, I see a complete lack of facts.

Now it's a period of time? No I think I got it right and you got caught. ;) But it's all good. However, no matter how you want to adjust your argument, it's still not correct. We can walk through the products that were released in the 6 weeks and you'll see the same trend. The last dawn item I saw was a dress that was released maybe three weeks ago, may be one more item released. But there's been plenty of Genesis stuff released, that can't be denied no matter how you try to spin it.

Nice try though, but please fact check. You were off the chain with this one. Kudos. ;)

Quote - Looking at trends there appears to be more stuff for both Genesis and Dawn in the last few months, both here and a RDNA so it appears that such items might be selling better. Just an observation but of course this still does not match V4 items, that will take time.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/?TopID=359562

I think if you look under the "Figures" column on the left you can see the break down products by figure. Poor M4.

Just went all the way back to page 20 of whats hot, which contains products releases much older than 6 weeks, and I am hardly seeing any stand alone Dawn products. But I might just be making wild assumtions here. So you say you've been following it for around 6 weeks? My point is this. If Dawn content was selling even at an average rate on a daily basis, it would appear somewhere on the first 20 pages.

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Right, because the Hot List is the only stuff that ever sells on this site.

Terrance, and Zev0, what exactly is your point of being in this thread? Do you use Dawn in Poser? If not, why are you posting here? Because it appears to me that all you're trying to do is promote your opionions of Dawn's poor reception, or what you perceive to be poor. And looking at the thread title, that's not what the OP is asking for. It clearly states "post here if you use Dawn in Poser".

Now I'm not the kind of mod that is real strict about keeping every conversation 100% in line with the thread topic, unless the subject requires it. I've tried that and it doesn't really work, and only winds up irritating a bunch of people - plus it takes more time than I have to spend on it, so I like to let people discuss things that sort of branch off into somewhat related aspects of the thread the way conversations do naturally, as long as they don't become arguments or become hostile. But some people like to carry it too far and start interjecting their own opinions and negativities in, as their way of promoting their own agenda, and that appears to be exactly what you're trying to do here.

Now maybe I'm wrong on that, but so far none of your posts in this thread have proven otherwise. So unless you have something positive to contribute, I think your opinions have been made clear. Keep in mind they are only your opinions, which the thread topic didn't ask for to begin with. We all understand that you're DAZ vendors, so you're naturally going to promote DAZ content over anything else. I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is your insistence on turning these threads into a "Genesis is better than everything else" debate, and constantly trying to prove it with the debbie-downer attitude towards anything that is not a DAZ figure. Not everyone here wants to use DAZ figures, regardless of how well supported they might be.

Personally, I use Genesis and Gen4 and Smith Micro figures. I havent' started using Dawn to any real extent yet, and I've expressed the reasons for why that is in the past. But I don't have anything against her personally, or her creators or anyone who wants to build content for her, and I hope HiveWire is succesful with continuing to grow their community around her. Because she does have a following, however small and not up to your standards it might be. She has a group of people who do enjoy using her and want more content for her, and eventually that content will come.

So I suggest to the two of you, and anyone else who doesn't want to use Dawn, don't use her if that's your choice. But you're not going to come in here and hammer on and on and on about why you think she's a failure. You've made your opinions clear, there's no reason to keep harping on about it because all it does is spread hostility. And if I have to remove you from the forum to prevent you from continuing this crap I will do so. I don't care that you might be vendors here, you're not exempt from the TOS and I will suspend you just as quick as I will anyone else who perpetuates this nonsense.

And, just for the record - while I haven't taken the time to actually check out Rosity's policy on it, you're not hiding anything from me by using alternate names. You might get away with it for the average forum user, but I know who each of you are and everything that comes through this site is recorded, to include IPs.

So how about we get back to a more positive discussion about Dawn and those who enjoy using her, since that is after all what this thread is originally about.

Yeah, let's talk a little bit about "combined" products, first.

If the vendor is kind enough to provide the Genesis stuff separated from the download, I just don't download the stuff I'm never going to use. If they don't separate it? I just delete the Genesis stuff. No need to fill up my hard drive with stuff I'll never use.

Secondly, hair fits? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha, you're really going to count hair fits! Now, that's hysterical.

I've never bought a hair fit in my life. If I want hair to fit a new figure, I have Netherworks great Hair Conversion System. I don't waste my money on hair fits in the marketplace. Not for Dawn, not for M4, not for anyone.

Oh, and you really should talk a walk through the freebies. Most of the Dawn hair fits were given away when she first came out.

Again, this whole conversation is just conjecture on the part of folks who really, really, really need Dawn to fail. They're afraid to compete with another product.

As to the multiple personalities, AS, I think most of us figured it out right along with you. It's truly a pathetic attempt to cover up the fact that they need other figures to fail.

Quote - Then it's curious that several major vendors at rendo has hoop jumped to make V6 clothing, characters, poses and props over making things for native dawn. Some of those same vendors have set up shop over at DAZ too and not Hivewire. And some vendors that were staunchly against genesis have made items for them after their Dawn offering flopped and ended up on rendo's hot list a few weeks back.

Sounds like more people would rather hoop jump than load up Poser native Dawn.

This has probably more to do with more poser users moving over to DS so they can use Genesis1/2 more efficiently. Judging what I have read at Daz forums, several vendors have stated that if they leave out the PCF, their sales are just as good, which is why more and more products released at Daz are no longer poser compatible at all.

If the trend continues, the remaining majority of poser users are not using Genesis, and they will be looking for a different figure to take over from V4 eventually. It probably won't be Dawn, but it might be Dawn 2.

Yes, there is not a whole lot of content being made for Dawn atm, it's a slow trickle, but it is still there. Many users (and vendors) are waiting for the new SR2 release, and several vendors who initially didn't have an interest in Dawn, have stated that with the new release, they might take an interest in Dawn again. And many of them have stated an interest in their new Dusk figure (but that is a different discussion)

If you want to use Dawn or not, that is up to you, but she is far from doomed!

> Quote - > > Terrance, and Zev0, what exactly is your point of being in this thread? Do you use Dawn in Poser? If not, why are you posting here? Because it appears to me that all you're trying to do is promote your opionions of Dawn's poor reception, or what you perceive to be poor. And looking at the thread title, that's not what the OP is asking for. It clearly states "post here if you use Dawn in Poser".

Huh? I never said Dawn was doing poorly. It doesn't seem the thread has been talking about dawn mostly though.

As far as using her, it's not a Poser render (was protyping) but I did do a little work with her two weeks ago between projects. I was trying to make a morph to address some of the addresses about the chin and also reduced the iris size so it's not huge in a lot of the morphs I see. I did a little slimming and pushing of the body a little (as I don't have any of the morphs, just pushing stuff in zbrush).

As she's a WIP not sure where to take the morph, but I guess I can pull up some references and see what features look good. Feel free to add suggestions.

@ AmbientShade - FYI, I was mainly speaking about the tools and made one or two comments about Dawn. Was it negative? Yes. So what? Lot's of other people posted negative comments, but because I am a Daz PA I get singled out every time or come across as promoting?

Before I was a Daz PA and before Genesis was even created I took part in threads here and spoke about various figures, their situation and what would help them succeed or where they are going wrong in the exact same manner. Positive and negative comments. Nobody branded me then or had an issue with what I said.. This was the first community I joined, but lately people are so uptight when it comes to don't mention this figure or dont say this about that company. How can you learn or change a situation if you cannot compare with what is being done right and what is being done wrong? You get people asking why content isn't being made and as soon as you try to explain...well...ya..

What I do have a problem with is your insistence on turning these threads into a "Genesis is better than everything else" debate, and constantly trying to prove it with the debbie-downer attitude towards anything that is not a DAZ figure. Not everyone here wants to use DAZ figures, regardless of how well supported they might be.

And FYI I did not make a single "Genesis is better" comparison in this thread. I only replied to an assumption made about the Whats Hot charts. Only thing I was comparing was the tools and you participated in that discussion and there was no issues. Good points and bad points were made. Stop making blanket comments about self promotion please. It adds to the "Oh they are from Daz" propaganda.

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Quote - > Quote -

Terrance, and Zev0, what exactly is your point of being in this thread? Do you use Dawn in Poser? If not, why are you posting here? Because it appears to me that all you're trying to do is promote your opionions of Dawn's poor reception, or what you perceive to be poor. And looking at the thread title, that's not what the OP is asking for. It clearly states "post here if you use Dawn in Poser".

Huh? I never said Dawn was doing poorly. It doesn't seem the thread has been talking about dawn mostly though.

I don't know where you get that idea, unless you're doing some selective reading. Although to be fair, it does seem I have to keep insisting to certain people to keep the thread on topic.

Huh? I never said Dawn was doing poorly. It doesn't seem the thread has been talking about dawn mostly though.

As far as using her, it's not a Poser render (was protyping) but I did do a little work with her two weeks ago between projects. I was trying to make a morph to address some of the addresses about the chin and also reduced the iris size so it's not huge in a lot of the morphs I see. I did a little slimming and pushing of the body a little (as I don't have any of the morphs, just pushing stuff in zbrush).

As she's a WIP not sure where to take the morph, but I guess I can pull up some references and see what features look good. Feel free to add suggestions.

Great render

Thanks :)

I still need to work on the eye area and the head shape a bit. The thing is, i don't want to mess with the head too much otherwise it may cause issues with hair and hats. And the belly button needs a different shape. Her face, though not detailed, is distinctive so some time has to be taken to "un-dawn" her then build up from that. I may even make vilters happy by toning down the roundness of the breast... but the face needs the attention first.

Here is a little "morph" I was working on for Dawn... Actually the only MOrphin is to the face and that was just an experiment on ZBrush, I wanted a little more "stylized" foirgure for a project and managed this with just scaling. Thing is most clothing will still work , sometimes with a little touch up with the morph brush. Dawn is about a "flexible" as any base figure I've worked with it's just time and patience to learn how to get the most out of it for your situation.

I honestly to NOT like any of the current figures, male or female, they just don;t always suit my needs, which is why I have a problem staying interested in creating clothing for the MP since making clothing to fit the MORPHED versions but that don;t support the BASE figure just doesn;t sell so well. So I tend to drag my feet a lot, LOL, and make mostly what I need and the occatinal commercial product

Great morphs

Yep Zbrush is fun to use

More and more of everything sold at DAZ is made for the DAZ Studio4 core... even the scene and prop sets. Yet, the DSON runs in Poser with limited capabilities still. I must say, DAZ has been saving me a ton of money this past year. I've turned to commissioning vendors to make unique stuff for Poser with the money I have saved.

This strategy of DAZ is good for Dawn if she can be more aggressively marketed to the Poser crowd. This is the time to push her hard again. Undecided folks are starting to veer towards Genesis thinking there's nothing else available that's new beyond Gen4 people.

Hint hint to Dawn folks

Quote - More and more of everything sold at DAZ is made for the DAZ Studio4 core... even the scene and prop sets. Yet, the DSON runs in Poser with limited capabilities still. I must say, DAZ has been saving me a ton of money this past year. I've turned to commissioning vendors to make unique stuff for Poser with the money I have saved.

This strategy of DAZ is good for Dawn if she can be more aggressively marketed to the Poser crowd. This is the time to push her hard again. Undecided folks are starting to veer towards Genesis thinking there's nothing else available that's new beyond Gen4 people.

Hint hint to Dawn folks

Dawn's only been around a little over a year now. You've got some people who can't use her, and some people who won't use her. All you can really do is hope those numbers go down.

To get back to the original topic: I use Dawn. I like her. She's not my primary figure but I don't think I have a primary figure. I'm using her more than V4 at the moment though. I'm also eagerly awaiting Dusk. He will be better than Dawn for the same reason M4 was better than V4. Many of the kinks have been worked out and will have a full set of morphs at launch. I'm in dire need of a well supported weight mapped male figure for Poser, and no, the other couple of contenders won't do.

I'm also looking forward to HW3D doing a modern child figure for Poser. I'm probably one of the few who is at all interested in that but for some reason I like to have a family of similar figures. I think the kid should look like dad (he better look like dad, know what i mean). Ironic that the figures most in need of flexibility and bending are the most overlooked with all this weight mapping and stuff.

I guess I support Hivewire more than Dawn per se. They do have a cult following and I'm one of them. I don't need her to "knock V4 off her throne" or be a "V4 killer". She just has to continue to improve and will gain more support over time. I'm in no hurry.

________________________________

My DeviantArt Gallery

My Website

Attached Link: http://luminescentriver.deviantart.com/

I use Dawn quite a bit and I also develop products for her, so I have looked her over very carefully and used her in a variety of situations. As to the orignial question of this thread, I have found some great advantages of using her. First, she scales extremely well, actually better than any figure I have ever used. She is very easy to pose unlike some other figures and her morphs are actually a lot more versatile than what is being suggested by some. She has a different look which is nice because I like to sometimes use her in renders with Anastasia.

There are some issues that I do have with her such as the way the morphs are organized in the dial settings, the lack of clothing support. There were a few bending issues, but it looks like those are going to be corrected for SR2. I also was not fond of her broad shoulders until I realized that all I need to do is scale them and they scale easily in relation to the whole mesh so it does not break apart as some do.

As to the ethnicity question that has come up. I like doing renders with ethnic variety myself. Anyway, I made a Caucasian character for only Poser for her and sold 20--I made a Native American for her and included native Poser and DS support and sold a total of 4 including sales for both versions-- this is not a unique experience to Dawn development--just saying. What people purchase is what drives the market.

At the top of this post, I included a link to a gallery of an artist who uses her almost exclusively.

"People who attempt define what art is or is not, are not artists"---Luminescence

some body pass the beers out :)

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"There are some issues that I do have with her such as the way the morphs are organized in the dial settings"

I agree that the default groupNode structure could be better - I find the term "Transforms" to be a bit irritating for one thing, and also redundant.

So, using EditPadLyte, I changed it in BODY into a stucture that I like and added -collapse 1- most everywhere so that I can open what I want without other stuff in my way. It is easy to change in a text editor. Not so easy in a Poser file editor, so you must pay attention to the { }.

Here is what I set up for a Function only version of Dawn. I removed almost all of the parnMode lines. Shape morphs would have their own section similar to Function. One can add as many sub categories as desired.

    channels
       {
       groups
           {
           groupNode General
               {
               collapsed 1
               groupNode Translation
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   parmNode xtran
                   }
               groupNode Rotation
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   }
               groupNode Scale
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   }
               }
           groupNode Control
               {
               collapsed 1
               groupNode Head
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   parmNode FBMCTRLHeadNeckTwist
                   }
               groupNode Eyes
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   parmNode FBMCTRLEyesUpDown
                   }
               groupNode Torso
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   parmNode FBMCTRLTorsoTwist
                   }
               groupNode Arms
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   parmNode FBMrCTRLArmUp
                   }
               groupNode Hands
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   parmNode FBMrCTRLThumbGrasp
                   }
               groupNode Legs
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   }
               groupNode Feet
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   }
               }
           groupNode Function
               {
               collapsed 1
               groupNode Eyes
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   }
               groupNode Breast
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   }
               groupNode Abdomen
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   }
               groupNode Arms
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   parmNode FBMTricepFlexR
                   }
               groupNode Glutes
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   parmNode FBMGluteFlexR
                   }
               groupNode Legs
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   parmNode FBMGastrocFlexR
                   }
               }
           groupNode Expressions
               {
               collapsed 1
               groupNode Head
                   {
                   collapsed 1
                   groupNode Brows
                       {
                       collapsed 1
                       }
                   groupNode Mouth
                       {
                       collapsed 1
                       }
                   groupNode Jaw
                       {
                       collapsed 1
                       }
                   groupNode Eyes
                       {
                       collapsed 1
                       parmNode FBMEyeCloseR
                       }
                   groupNode Expressions
                       {
                       collapsed 1
                       parmNode FBMExpressionSurprise
                       }
                   }
               }
           }

EClark1894 : I know your a vender for Roxie. I've seen a lot of your Roxie post.
Now there's Dawn post.

I like Roxie,Dawn just fine but since the stores are 99.9% Vicky.

Might I humbly suggest you turn your focus on Vicky.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

With

Blacksmith providing texture conversion,

NetherWorks - hair conversion,

PP2014 - clothing conversion

V4 products can be raw material for Dawn and Roxie and except for the textures, a lot of other figures too.

I thought it might be nice to include some artistic style renders of Dawn in textures other than the default to show her to a better advantage, and to demonstrate one of the advantages of using her. For me and the kind of renders I enjoy doing, she is a good figure to use and is versatile in many respects. I am not trying to be a cheerleader, just show a little of why some of us do like her and use her. Used Dawn and her official HW morphs.

"People who attempt define what art is or is not, are not artists"---Luminescence

Another one

"People who attempt define what art is or is not, are not artists"---Luminescence

one more...

"People who attempt define what art is or is not, are not artists"---Luminescence

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Post here if you primarily use Dawn in Poser.

So? ? What realistic reactions did you expect? ?

And then continuing to hype "vapor"?