I started this hobby in 2006, and have barely scratched the surface of what's possible with either DS or Poser.  And I know nothing about modeling.

As someone who still considers themselves a relative newbie, I find myself increasingly frustrated with the ongoing debates over the quality and support for new figure meshes.  The more I read, the more I regret having gotten into this hobby in the first place.  I keep wondering why I even bother trying to learn new skills when there's no guarantee the content I want to use will be supported.

I understand V4 is ancient tech.  From my perspective, on the surface, Genesis looks like a viable alternative, but everything I've read by more experienced users and content creators has said it's worse than V4.  Understanding why has been like trying to read Greek.

I also understand Dawn was supposed to be the ideal replacement for V4.  Again, more experienced users concluded she was all hype, and she's received minimal support from content creators.

I feel stuck in the middle of a tug of war between my desire to use new tech, and a community who says the new tech sucks.  Meanwhile, vendors continue creating content for V4.

Last October, I built a new PC with parts specifically chosen for the primary task of rendering 3D art.  Is there any point in my continuing to use it for that purpose, or has the divide between the tech and community support widened too much to bother anymore?  I have much more enjoyable interests to spend my free time on that don't give me headaches.

You don't have to listen to what people say (including me, of course). ;) Their opinions are just that: opinions.

If you want to learn new skills, listen to the people who have the most to teach. Bagginsbill, for one. (He's one of the few consistently making statements that are actually, also, simple fact.)

If you've concluded that Genesis is worse than V4, you've been reading only half the story. Same with Dawn. Or any figure, including the Poser natives.

The loudest voices aren't necessarily more right. Just louder. These people also have a lot of things to teach in their areas of knowledge. But that doesn't mean you must accept their opinions about everything. 

Take everything you hear with a grain of salt. See for yourself. Don't let other people dictate what you do. Experiment like wild.

Right now, 3d artists have more choice and more alternatives than we've ever had before. The market split may not be so great for content creators trying to make a living because they have to come up with more innovative ways to reach customers. But for the end user, these are exciting times. 

From being able to choose to render almost everything in Daz Studio OR Poser to using external renderers, like Lux (via Pose2Lux or Reality) and Octane, to having new tools in the latest iteration of the posing software, we've really got a LOT of tools at our disposal.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I'm dishearted at the divides in the community too. You are not alone in frustration. I see the same forum posts. All the bickering and posturing sees to do a good job at chasing away those of us who just want make a good image.

So far the best way I found to deal with experts is to take their advice with a grain of salt. Some of it is opinon anyway. I explore the figures myself. I admit, it is a lot easier if the stuff is free. Sometime I succeed, sometime I don't. Just don't stop trying to grow as an artist.

As for content creators, they make stuff that sells. Unfortunately, creators usually end up making the same things over and over again. I think my Victoria 4 has about 20 bikinis. Granted I was the one who bought it for her. However, I have not been able to tow truck for her to drive.

Recently, I used PhilC's Wardrobe Wizard to convert some of Victoria 4's clothes to the other figures. Its not perfect, but it does expand those figures.

I hope you continue with 3D.

Quote - I'm dishearted at the divides in the community too. You are not alone in frustration. I see the same forum posts. All the bickering and posturing sees to do a good job at chasing away those of us who just want make a good image.

I do think this is a fundamental weakness with the community. Not the bickering per se because you'll get that anywhere. It's human nature. But with the topics we choose to emphasize. There isn't nearly as much here about making better renders, as opposed to making better figures. (It's there, but often requires a lot of digging in the forum archives). It's much more of a Poser modelling forum than a Poser rendering forum. If it were a Poser rendering forum, we'd hear a lot more from users like Caisson, who is a rendering god, if there ever were one. :)

But I guess people who are most skilled at rendering spend more time doing that than arguing in forums. :)  But it would be nice if there were a dedicated and active rendering forum, where the end result -- the final render (and postworking techniques, as well) was the main point of emphasis.

I agree with your other points, as well.

Quote - I hope you continue with 3D.

Me, too.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Strangely I have never looked at things in this way. It’s not about “tech” for me so much as it is about art. To be honest, I use what works, I do not care about the tech behind a particular model. The only time I upgrade my programs is when some changes or new “tech” truly makes it worth my time to upgrade. And Vue is usually the program upgraded before any others.

As far as figures go, I use what I feel like or what I need to, and I do not give a rat’s butt about why I should or should not use a specific model according to those “in the know.” Opinions are like (oh you know) and everybody is entitled to theirs.

Maybe instead of being guided by other people’s opinions, you should just do what you do with 3D art because you enjoy it. Who really cares about who says this or thinks that? In the end, all that really matters is your enjoyment of your hobby.

********************************************

My store here at Renderosity.

Art By Mel

Quote - It’s not about “tech” for me so much as it is about art.

Can't have one without the other.  The software and content we use are the "tech" behind our art.

Quote - Maybe instead of being guided by other people’s opinions, you should just do what you do with 3D art because you enjoy it.

I would love to, but I rely on content creators to support the tech I want to use.  That's why I switched from DAZ to Poser four years ago - larger community support.

I'm actually amazed at how good the figures for Poser are. I know none of them are perfect, but that is where your craft comes in. You use your experience and learning to make them better. I like V4 quite a bit, and enjoy tweaking her, making her older or younger, fatter or thinner...all those morphs are great. And Poser! I am continually amazed at what it can do, even as I struggle up the (sometimes steep) learning curve. And how inexpensive it is, especially when you grab it on sale! And look--this forum has its share of opinionated jerks, a handful of loud mouths, but mostly I see knowledgable people happy to give their solutions to the often convoluted problems we run into. Most of them are even patient. When I am too frustrated about the things I need to learn (I havent tried the Wardrobe Wizard yet, and have only a rank beginner's understanding of the Material Room) I know I can turn to this forum and find sympathetic people. Or sometimes unsympathetic people, who slap me for my ignorance, but still give me guidance. What we do here is great. Kudos to the overworked moderators, and thanks to all the lively, helpful people here....

Stay cool, be tolerant, learn...

Poser Pro 2014

My personal website: Novels, photos, video, sculptures and more
Evidence of a Lost City: An animated movie and novel, in progress
Hag: A novel and live-action movie

Personally, it doesn't matter to me what figure has what support.  With tweaking in different morphs, using the morph brush and bashing one figure's clothing/props onto others, I have a wide array of things I can use- not just with V4, but M4, Tyler, Genesis, Genesis 2, Anastasia, Dawn, and the others out there that are available.

For me, it's about learning what works for you; using what you have, learning how to work things and kit bash (transfering things here and there between figures) and work around what you can't fix.  I've never had the converters, all the transfers over are from morphs and morph brush in Poser.

The Genesis figures work fine and have very natural shapes in Poser and there is more and more content coming out. Try them yourself and you'll see. They bend and take posing very smoothly.

Mike

Quote - I would love to, but I rely on content creators to support the tech I want to use.  That's why I switched from DAZ to Poser four years ago - larger community support.

If you've got some background in using DS -- even from four years ago -- then using it now shouldn't create such a barrier.

There's no rule that says you can't use both Poser and Daz Studio, or that you can't use content from both. Not everything is compatible with both softwares, but if you use both, you are pretty much covered, and adding DS to your repertoire again, fortunately, costs nothing but your time, time that I think is worth expending.

(I regularly render Genesis 1 and 2 content in Poser. It's not THE simplest thing to do, and there are a couple of issues with it, but it's not exactly challenging either.)

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I've used Dawn in images (my "primary" content is an envirodome)

I will have to dispute this statement

"fortunately, costs nothing but your time, time that I think is worth expending."

Time the most precious thing in the universe it's what everyone else is trying to buy from you

and experimenting with DAZ delivery ware is a giant time suck

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

 Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

should you learn to ignore opinion in re: preferences and absorb only facts, it becomes smooth sailing IMVHO.

Quote - I understand V4 is ancient tech.  From my perspective, on the surface, Genesis looks like a viable alternative, but everything I've read by more experienced users and content creators has said it's worse than V4.  Understanding why has been like trying to read Greek.

I invented MAT poses. Genesis 2 rocks :) Je ne parlez-pas Greek.

The only real issue with the various Genesis characters is that DAZ now thinks they have to create a different UV layout for each new character. My advice is to find out which of the various characters has textures made for it that you like, and stick with that (I'm partial to the texture that came with Giselle 6, so that's all I use).

The morphing/shaping capabilities are amazing, and the bending is very good. The other main problem is that geografting doesn't work very well in Poser, so if you need anatomically-correct characters, you'll have to render (I use a custom realtime skin shader so as to avoid having to render, so it's rather annoying for those times when I do need more, um, 'detail' on my characters).

Yes you do have to have the tech for the 3D art world to move on but new tech does not mean better tech or that old tech is obsolete.  The question is does the figure you use provide the means to reach your goals, which is often why people will use different figures because their goals are different.

Bickering happens in all hobbies to a greater or less degree and I have played with a few hobbies over my long life to know that this is true.  The bickering comes when people try and impose their view on others.  The this "figure/software/game engine is the greatest and if you cannot understand that you are thick and missing out" is the one that pushes my buttons but again different people will have different things that excite or annoy them.

I have stuck with one figure on the whole because it does what I need and I have concentrated my time on trying to get the best from that figure.  I now understand more about the material room than I did a few years ago and I put that to good use.

Yes the support of vendors is improtant to some degree but some of the gems that BB has added in these forums have really pushed my understanding and enjoyment of the hobby and that is improtant for it proves that the forums are very much a two sided coin.

Again each indivdual will see the glass half full or half empty, some will not see that glass at all.  Which one you decide to take is up to you as there is no right or wrong answer, but the choice does affect the enjoyment you get in return.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

oh.  mistook bashing for kitbashing.

kitbashing topic would have been interesting

---

♥ My Gallery Albums    ♥   My YT   ♥   Party in the CarrarArtists Forum  ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

Nyghtfall, just enjoy your new kit, who gives a crap about what figure you used to do your thing?

I agree the whole figure-bashing thing is getting old but at least when I look at comments for gallery images, I've never seen a single person even hint that the artist should have used another figure instead.  Thankfully this nonsense is something that has kept away from gallery comments and stuff like that, and I'm guessing the reason is that everyone knows that if they were to post such a comment, they'd make themselves look like an absolute idiot.  I think the best thing to do is put your finger up to it and carry one as you were.  If I were creating images right now, I'd be using Roxie, and she's neither V4 or Genesis. 

It goes without saying that I couldn't care less that she's neither V4 or Genesis.

 

I look at there gallery ,to see what the one talking has done.

On this forum V4 is most popular.

HW3D forums Dawns most popular.

DAZ forums V6 is most popular.

CGTalk forums neather DAZ Poser are popular .

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

The only way to sort opinion from fact is to learn some of the technical stuff.  This doesn't mean you have to actually model, rig/weight map, or paint your own stuff, but reading and watching tutorials on this stuff will increase understanding.

When reading comments in forums, you should always consider the source.

Some very vocal posters in most threads regarding various figures, are themselves primarily Daz vendors, so obviously they will be biased against anything non-Daz. Likewise, if you go to the HW forums, you will find nothing but biased praise of their figures. (Strangely tho, you won't find any bashing of other companies figures.. go figure huh)

Always try things yourself first, and make up your own opinion. What works for others, might not work for you, and vice-versa. I have myself given up using Genesis 2 in Poser, but I would never discourage anyone from trying it!

Quote - When reading comments in forums, you should always consider the source.

Some very vocal posters in most threads regarding various figures, are themselves primarily Daz vendors, so obviously they will be biased against anything non-Daz.

There are DAZ vendors that still sell items for V4 and Poser. There's also those that still make scenes and shaders that are native to Poser software as well. The DAZ PA that wrote a guide on how to convert genesis to a CR2 so it works in Poser converted a-DS native set of underwater lights and cameras that's currently on sale as well... which was requested by Poser users that shop at DAZ.

I think it's this incorrect presumption that causes a lot of the arguments and discord and chased a lot of people away from the forums. I certainly don't think this comment helps the OP when someone decides to launch attacks from a "bashing making me regret 3D" thread.

The problem I've seen over the years is that someone would pose a question on this forum on how to set up Genesis or they're having some type of issue, and instead of someone answering it, there's a chorus of "DAZ sucks" posts and then the arguments begin. It was and still is interesting to see people make their fellow Poser users feel unwelcome because they wanted to try a particular figure, and we're not just talking about Genesis. Quite a few members left and are over at Hivewire when Dawn was released due to arguments over that figure as well. And they do bash DAZ products when given an opportunity, though you'll see LisaB step in to remind them what Hivewire is trying to do, which diffuses the arguments... since both groups have a shared interest in what that company does.

Sometimes there would be bits of useful information in threads that would help Poser users, but it gets lost by derailing, personal attacks, leading to the thread being locked and the info lost. Also posts with misinformation would grow for days without moderation and that ended up being the information people have to work with, which ends up confusing them or leaving them no place really ask a question. 

Quote - Always try things yourself first, and make up your own opinion. What works for others, might not work for you, and vice-versa. 

Now that I can agree on.

To the OP:

Also, I can suggest if you have any questions you can post in the "New Users" forum at DAZ to see whether that works for you or not. That forum is for people trying to get started and is monitored by mods so if you ask a question and someone adds an opinion instead of helping you, that comment is deleted and the poster warned. This site needs something like that as all types of information is being lost or needs to be constantly repeated due to bashing and fighting.

I haven't seen any bashing or fighting going on lately. If there has been then it hasn't been brought to my attention recently. 

 

Quote - Maybe instead of being guided by other people’s opinions, you should just do what you do with 3D art because you enjoy it. Who really cares about who says this or thinks that? In the end, all that really matters is your enjoyment of your hobby.

:thumbupboth:

One persons "Figure Bashing" is another person's "Contructive Criticism ".  People here are going to always argue over the merits of a figure - it's human nature. 

People in the forums ask questions about figures and those of us who use them will chime in (hopefully based on their experiences). 

This is a "marketplace of ideas" and there will certainly be heated discussions - it beats the alternative - a forum that does not allow constructive criticism is a dead forum - See Daz or the Hivewire forums for some examples of that.

@ Male_M3dia:

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. This isn't about Daz vs Poser. This is about Figures, regardless of what platform you use, and it is my observation that some vendors like to elevate their figure of choice, while downgrading others, and stating their opinion as fact as to why their figure is better. I am simply pointing out that it doesn't hurt to look at the source before you consider their opinion. And being able to seperate opinions from fact helps too.

 

there's 2 types of threads

1 questions looking for facts

How to do this or that.find something.

2.personal opinions

That's all based on personal opinions.

If you can't handle that everone does not have the same philosophy as you.

Well ,your going to have a difficult time in life and on forums.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - @ Male_M3dia:

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. This isn't about Daz vs Poser. This is about Figures, regardless of what platform you use, and it is my observation that some vendors like to elevate their figure of choice, while downgrading others, and stating their opinion as fact as to why their figure is better. I am simply pointing out that it doesn't hurt to look at the source before you consider their opinion. And being able to seperate opinions from fact helps too.

I don't think I misunderstood, because people assume that if a vendor answers a question regarding a figure, they're trying to sell a figure rather than their actual experience. The thing is, a lot of those same vendors sold Gen4 products to both Poser and DAZ customers for years and sold products on multiple sites. I sold products both on rendo and Poseraddicts before going to DAZ. I bought copies of Poser starting at 7 as well as buying the advance versions of DAZ Studio even before I started selling anything. So some of the vendors, especially the ones that make custom characters, had experience with working with mesh, making content, packaging etc. 

However, for a lot of people it was more an emotional issue, so it didn't matter what people were saying, it was simply a "Us vs Them" situation. And a lot of people chose to believe people that hadn't made one item, moved one vertex, or used the figure over someone who had simply because they were considered "a poser user". So when people said "consider the source", they really meant those who were a "poser user", whether they actually knew what they were talking about or not.

That's why there's so much bad information out there and users can't find the info they need now.

Quote - I keep wondering why I even bother trying to learn new skills when there's no guarantee the content I want to use will be supported.

Support for characters has always been a crap shoot.

Not sure how learning new skills would be tied to a character or content. Programs support technology, characters can just use it.

Quote - I understand V4 is ancient tech.  From my perspective, on the surface, Genesis looks like a viable alternative, but everything I've read by more experienced users and content creators has said it's worse than V4.  Understanding why has been like trying to read Greek.

Last time I checked, all Poser/Daz characters are wireframes (or control cages). Yes there have been some new things added that can be applied to rigging, etc. But in reality not much has really changed under the hood so to speak. Genesis is not that old of a system, and has shown good progress. It can do a few things that V4 could never do. Such as the Genesis HD series, etc. If you see merit in Genesis, there must be for you. So feel free to substitute others realities for you own.

Quote - I also understand Dawn was supposed to be the ideal replacement for V4.

Seems to be part of the crap shoot doesn't it. I was under the impression that Dawn was going to be a character that worked in Studio and Poser with very similar results. I do not use Studio much, but Dawn appears to work more or less the same in both programs.

Quote - I feel stuck in the middle of a tug of war between my desire to use new tech, and a community who says the new tech sucks.  Meanwhile, vendors continue creating content for V4.

Load up an old character (V1, Posette, etc) and do a few renders, then judge for yourself is there are any imrovements or shortcomings in newer characters ot technology. Your opinion on it is more relavant to you, than anyone elses. It is your art, no someones that has a different opinion than you.

Vendors build for a few reasons, but top of the list is going to be what sells. Yes, what they are used to has a little to do with it. But in the end if it does not sell, that says a lot about the choice in what character to build for and the user base that actualy wants content for it. When V4 stuff stops selling, support will fall off. It seems to me that has not happened yet.

Quote - Is there any point in my continuing to use it for that purpose, or has the divide between the tech and community support widened too much to bother anymore?  I have much more enjoyable interests to spend my free time on that don't give me headaches.

I am not sure how anyone can answer that for you. If you have other interests that are far less stressful I would think you would already be doing that. I don't really see a divide between the users and the tech the same way as others might thou. If I need something for a render that I do not have I usually just make or correct it myself. Even thou Poser has had many things added to it over the years, it is still a text based system that doesn't really hide anything under the hood.

I still primarily use modified versions of V3. Yes I have Antonia, Cynthia, Kez, Koshini, Michelle, Miki 1-4, etc, etc, but even thou I have all of those I didn't really want to replace an entire V3 wardrobe for V4, then V5, then V6, etc.  When the next big character comes out (V7?) I doubt I will by a wardrobe for that one either. You don't  outgrow virtual clothes, and you can give them to other characters.

If you keep doing 3D art, chances are good that you will learn more and more about the internals of it. How far you go is entirely up to you. If you get to the point that you basically mastered a program, content support will be a moot point. You will have an entire wardrobe of clothes to use on any character you choose.

Do what you enjoy doing, and don't let anyone else tell you how much you enjoy it, or what to use.

---

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

My understanding of the purpose behind the release of each new generation of figures was to improve on the one before it.  Yet, everything I've read about Genesis and Dawn claim both figures proved to be a step back in terms of what artists can do with them. Whether it's Genesis's comparitively low poly count, or Dawn's jaw line, both systems have been reported to be inferior to previous figures.

As an artist specializing in Horror scenes, all I care about is whether whatever figure I'm using can be realistically put into what might be considered some rather extreme poses, and for whatever content I'm using to support those poses.  For example, I might want to have V6 wearing a long-sleeve shirt while reaching up over her head to clutch a rope she's being hanged with.  I need to know I'll be able to put her in such a pose without either the figure or clothing mesh tearing.

I own several morph packs designed to fix most of V4's flaws and give her a touch of realism, but have yet to see anything similar released for Dawn or Genesis.  It's as if V4 was the last great figure released, and no one wants to touch the new stuff.

I'm not concerned about what anyone might think of me for using one figure or another.  I'm concerned about the ongoing lack of support for new technology.

Quote - I own several morph packs designed to fix most of V4's flaws and give her a touch of realism, but have yet to see anything similar released for Dawn or Genesis.  It's as if V4 was the last great figure released, and no one wants to touch the new stuff.

I'm not concerned about what anyone might think of me for using one figure or another.  I'm concerned about the ongoing lack of support for new technology.

Hivewire is working on Dawn's SR2 even as we speak.

Quote - I own several morph packs designed to fix most of V4's flaws and give her a touch of realism, but have yet to see anything similar released for Dawn or Genesis.  It's as if V4 was the last great figure released, and no one wants to touch the new stuff.

I guess you don't spend much time at Daz's website then. There have been tons of fixes and addons for Genesis and Genesis 2. Tons.

Hell, before the big sale on Gen4 stuff over there, I didn't know there had been a V4 and M4 with bend fixes released in the form of a new CR2 (and they've been out for ages). I didn't bother with the V4 version, but the M4 one is a godsend. (Same vendor did Genesis, as well.) It surprises me at times what I find in the MPs when I look -- here and at Daz and RDNA.

For smoothing the bends in extreme poses, I find Poser's morph brush to be superior to any injected fixes, though. Definitely worth using. In my opinion. ;)

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - My understanding of the purpose behind the release of each new generation of figures was to improve on the one before it.  Yet, everything I've read about Genesis and Dawn claim both figures proved to be a step back in terms of what artists can do with them. Whether it's Genesis's comparitively low poly count, or Dawn's jaw line, both systems have been reported to be inferior to previous figures.

As an artist specializing in Horror scenes, all I care about is whether whatever figure I'm using can be realistically put into what might be considered some rather extreme poses, and for whatever content I'm using to support those poses.  For example, I might want to have V6 wearing a long-sleeve shirt while reaching up over her head to clutch a rope she's being hanged with.  I need to know I'll be able to put her in such a pose without either the figure or clothing mesh tearing.

I own several morph packs designed to fix most of V4's flaws and give her a touch of realism, but have yet to see anything similar released for Dawn or Genesis.  It's as if V4 was the last great figure released, and no one wants to touch the new stuff.

I'm not concerned about what anyone might think of me for using one figure or another.  I'm concerned about the ongoing lack of support for new technology.

I'm with Moriador; you probably need to look at the DAZ store, especially the creature section to see what is made from the base. There's a lot of different creatures that were made. The lower poly count isn't much as an issue as there's not much difference between V6 and V4 from the renders once subdivided. Also characters using HD tech has higher mesh count when rendered than V4. Weightmaps are more manageable with lower poly meshes. Working and creating with a lower poly mesh is simply a shift of how to create; artists in other applications have been working with lower poly meshes for years then adding the appropriate maps to render their work.

Agrred and agreed (Male_M3dia/Moriador) - if you're needing extreme poses, you want Genesis/Genesis 2. Use the low poly mode for posing, and turn up the render mode poly count for your finished images. Also ditto Male_M3dia with regards to creature morphs, as you can actually have a wolfman who starts as a man and transforms into a wolf, using the same figure so it looks natural, rather than using a clunky frame to frame figure swap.

I was personally a bit disappointed with Genesis 1, but have found Genesis 2 quite liberating and now use it as my main figure in Poser Pro 2014 - getting the best of both worlds.

I totally agree with Mal_M3dia, Moriador, and R_Hatch!!!

I really enjoy using Genesis1and Ganesis2. They seem to take extreme morphs much better than V4, and extreme poses work much better as well. Genesis does work better in DS, but it is usable in Poser (and Carrara). I still used V4 for some things, especially when I need to use foot wear designed for V4, but I find Genesis1/2 easier and more fun to use. Of course this is just my opinion, and your milage may vary, but I really do honestly prefer to use Genesis1/2.

As for details, I think Genesis1/2 is great. I like the details in my Genesis renders. Take a look at my gallery here, and others who use Genesis and judge for yourself.

I also find Genesis just plain fun to use (99% of the time)!

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

it's not just DAZ Poser it's all of CGI Max,zBrush etc etc

The way high end meshes are made in 2014 is

ya make a base mesh 5000 to 20'000 Roxie,V6 polycount around 20,000 for rigging.
then you put a vector map on the base mesh polycount around 5,000,000.

You can view zBrush,Mudbox gallers to see what I'm talking about.

more or less HD meshes.

---

The way high end game meshes are made in 2014 is

ya make a base mesh polycount 3000 to 6000.
then you put a normal map on the base mesh polycount stays the same.

2014 games look good don't they :)

---

V4 polycount is 60.000 cause Poser did not have SubD's at the time so they SubDed V4 in LW & frozze her for Poser.

Only Poser used a 60.000 polycount mesh.No other app would.
Any app will use a 20.000 polycount mesh,Roxie ,V6.

part of V6 is V4 not SudDed & frozzen.
They did change some of the topology on V6.
Each new version of ya mesh ya change some of the topology :)

old Poser versions can't use the newer meshes .

before I listened to someone's opinions of characters.
I'd ask what version of Poser & other CGI App's they where using.
If they say only Poser 4 then there knowlage of CGI is limmited to only 1998 Poser 4.
A lots happen between 1998 & 2014.

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Last October, I built a new PC with parts specifically chosen for the primary task of rendering 3D art.  Is there any point in my continuing to use it for that purpose, or has the divide between the tech and community support widened too much to bother anymore?  I have much more enjoyable interests to spend my free time on that don't give me headaches.

My suggestion is you treat 3D technology like you treat PC hardware, in a few years time it will be superseded and redundant but you haven't lost the ability to make a new PC its just the hardware will have changed.

In the world of PCs, it is said that any component you buy is already 6 months outdated the day it goes on the market. 

I think the same is true in the world of CG art. It's one of those industries that are constantly evolving and changing on a daily basis, and it can be a lot to keep up with if you try to follow all of it. 

But at the same time it all boils down to what you're most comfortable using. All these figures and the content for them are only meant to be a starting point for building your own artwork from. The art itself comes down to individual talent. So after you've experimented with a handful of the most commonly supported figures and content to get a feel for how they function, pick the ones that you like working with the best and see how far you can push it to acheive the results you're looking for.

When I use other people's content to do renders, I try to customize it into something that's my own. That's what started me on learning how to build my own content anyway. I was modifying pieces that were already available, and building things I needed that I couldn't find. 

If you spend all your time and energy trying to keep up with what all the forum bickering is about, you're just wasting time that you could be spending on creating all that art you wanted to create when you started working with this stuff to begin with. I've wasted plenty of time myself over the years reading forum rants that ultimately meant nothing to me while I could have been spending that time doing what I enjoyed or needed to do instead. 

Everyone is going to have their own opinions, and their own favorites. There's no rule that says you have to follow anyone's recommendation if that doesn't work for you. There is plenty of info available on all these forums and other sites that give you everything you need to know to get started using whichever software/figure combo you want to use. And if none of those figures work quite the way you need them to work, Poser has plenty of tools that will allow you to customize a figure to do what you need it to do. You just have to learn how to use those tools. 

There are many people who have never touched a DAZ figure and have no interest in doing so, and they still produce great art with the figures they do use. Learn how to use the software you want to use, and photoshop, or some other 2D image editing program for postwork is really all you need. You can even use DS and Poser in conjunction with whatever workflow you you create for yourself. In the end, most sane people looking at the art you produce aren't going to care what program was used to create it.

 

Quote - In the end, most sane people looking at the art you produce aren't going to care what program was used to create it.

 

 

Other then those already in the know not only don't care what you are doing but don't understand why you are doing it.  Most of my family enjoy my work and understand that I use Poser renders as an illustration tool but in the wider field of my friends, most do not understand.  Truth is I do what I do because I enjoy it, and it also challenges my mind far more than watching the latest twist on a reality TV show.  I perfer to sit in front on my PC than sit in front of all the TV soaps some dressed up as drama, like a soap based in a  fire station, police station, Victorian house and so on.  The fact that someone may not like my choice of figure or thinks I can do better does not bother me, just don't trying taking away what I all ready have or make things too easy.

When you get deep into the forums it is easy to get excited over certain aspects and also easy to forget the wider picture.  I spend a lot of time here for a number of reasons, I have learnt a great deal here, I am interested in new developments but a lot of the time it is just because I want a distraction while a render finishes.

   

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

i mainly use V4 and M4 but i fix up things in photoshop afterwards.  i especially find the liquify brush useful.

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

What most call "figure bashing" is not figure bashing at all.

Some will defend their figure at all cost. Some point out why their figure is not as good as they claim it to be.

There are 2 kind of end users.
- the click, drag-drop dressed-renderers
- those who dig deeper

The first kind does not care too much, if it does not work on a figure, they take another one.

The second sort of people dig into the figures and compare technology, compare possibilities and find and hopefully report the errors.

I started with P1 somewhere in the mid 90's, and today, september 2014, I have not found a singe error free figure. Not from SM, not from DAZ, not from Hivewire.

And what is far worce, not a single error free and user friendly figure exists at all.

Fom bad welding, to completely wrong topology, wrong proportions, to assymetrical obj files, completely out of whack magnets, loose vertex all around, rigging errors that go from simple to impossible, more material zones then Rubens used colors in his paintings.

September 2014, almost 20 years after the inital Poser release, and there is NO single error free and end user friendly figure.

That is not bashing, that is the reality.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Oh, and please show me ONE, that's all, one will do.

A default figure that has breasts that behave like breasts.

No-no, balloons do not count: Breasts.

You know? Like women have?

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - Oh, and please show me ONE, that's all, one will do.

A default figure that has breasts that behave like breasts.

No-no, balloons do not count: Breasts.

You know? Like women have?

Before you start:

Please don't start spamming this thread with those figures that you want to use as examples. 

We've seen them plenty. No one wants figures with those things otherwise you'd see them more in the marketplace.

Thank you.

Attached Link: Natural Boobies

"We've seen them plenty. No one wants figures with those things otherwise you'd see them more in the marketplace."

Perhaps not in the Rendo Marketplace.  ;-)

(See Link)

And yeah, what Vilters said:

All existing DAZ and Poser figures pretty much s*ck if you have somewhat higher artistic and also technical standards.

But of course as people around here instantly go ballistic the moment you point out a flaw in "their" favourite figure or just have a "Well, I can always fix it in Photoshop" attitude, there is no pressure for figure makers to deliver better work.

I mean, it's 2014. You simply shouldn't "have to" fix rigging errors or proportional errors in Photoshop anymore.

Back in the Posette days we just didn't have the technology to build realistic looking figures.

Now we have, and it's a shame we're the only part left in the CGI world so unwilling to exploit it.

@ terrancew
You use the market place as a reference? ? They make what sells, and ballO-Ons sell.

Sorry,  but my reference is the female human body.

I do not give a ****  what sells or not.

Have a nice day.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

"September 2014, almost 20 years after the inital Poser release, and there is NO single error free and end user friendly figure.

That is not bashing, that is the reality."

No bashing here, but what I don't understand is why any figure manages to get a release with errors in it in the first place.  It's just a mesh, and there are tools to check for holes, reversed normals, unused vertices, perfect symmetry etc.

All it takes is an ounce of pride in your work and to have the enthusiasm to check all of those things before you release it to others.  It's not rocket science and the tools do the work for you.  Go through it in a logical manner, do it right.  If a program is responsible for messing-up a mesh, that's differen't, but I don't think there's any excuse for the figure-mesh itself having errors in it.

OK now where getting in to personal opinion's of what are dream girls alt to look like.
There's no right or wrong ,just to each there own.so it's futile to argue this .

---

It's a personal opinion of how a mesh should be made.
There's no right or wrong ,just to each there own.so it's futile to argue this .

---

If your 100% dependent on Poser 4 & Rosetta.
You are very limited to change anything that you have declared a flaw.

If one app does not provide you with the necessary tools you want for your mesh.
There's other CGI app's that will.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Attached Link: It's a crass culture, Hobbes. Shoddy and quick is all anybody knows.

"All it takes is an ounce of pride in your work and to have the enthusiasm to check all of those things before you release it to others."

:-(

The best CG films, with hundreds of millions of dollars behind them, still have to use post-work in their films to fix certain things. That's why programs like After Effects and Nuke still exist. There's not a single one out there that doesn't use post work to some extent, even in 2014. 

Breasts are built the way they're built so that clothing looks decent on them, and the figure doesn't look like the cover of a national geographic mag. There are morphs and JCMs to correct where they need to be corrected. If breasts looked like that then most of these poser stores probably wouldn't exist, and without them this forum doesn't exist either, cause nothing would be paying the bills to keep the place running.

I am afraid you are right Shane.

Dollars have taken over from quality.

There are a lot of objective reasons why breasts should be modeled in their "natural shape" and at their "natural heigt".

An then morphed to fit into clothing.

Not the other way around as is common Poser / DS practice.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

**
@Noxiart**
Yup!

@ OP spend a month or two learning blender then grab make human and forgot these HIGH maintainance gurls ;-) [good skins are the only thing missing]

poser is great for figures but blender does pretty much anything but make your tea

fancy doing something abstract its easy!! making props is simples even landscapes are possible (real grass unique tree's ) ok will give you the odd headache rofl

then it has cloth sims (not as good as poser) fluid sims (watch your temps they can be aggressive)

and I'll bet you a squid after a year of oh wows in blender you'll fire up poser again 'cos it does what it does with the minimum fuss!!!

Of course, it might help if we could get some actual "error-free" humans to base the figures on. So we'd know what we were shooting for.

Niether would I slut my muse out to you philistines nor

would  I post my mesh for public review

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

 Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

"Of course, it might help if we could get some actual "error-free" humans to base the figures on."

COUGH :biggrin:

@ Earl

I have ONE error free figure and a second one with ONE unrepairable error.

The error free figure is based on Roxie where it took the best part of 2 months of free time to find, isolate, and repair what had to be done.

The other figure has a single issue left but that is so deep I had to cassify it as unrepairable but usable.

Then I went looking for the "next" figure to do.

Sydney : Object file is not symmetrical and beyond repair.

**Alyson original **:  Looks terrible, asymmetrical magnets, some rigging errors, and the arms are way too short and require a ton of work to get the rigging right.

Alyson 2 : Oh dear oh dear where to start? ? Arms are ok, but at the cost that the object file lost ALL Symmetry, and there are "read and smile" 5566 loose vertex flying around her welds.

Miki4? Ok, but I am not a denstist. Would be worth to repair at 1/3 of the poly count.

I might have to take a second look at Jessy.

Oh, and all of the above have the worst magnets imginable.

So? I have one error free, and end user friendly Roxie, and Rex.
I also got them down to 6, easy to manage, material zones.

• head
• body
• lashes
• eyes
• teeth
• nails

---

Oh, and some of you are right : I have a BIG mouth.

But as far as figures go? ? I tread all companies the same.

None have managed to get an error free figure out the door.

@ pumeco ( and others)

2 years, yes you read right, 2 years AFTER the release of Genesis ONE!!!!!!!

2 years after release, I downloaded Genesis 1 for a test and me myself and I where the first to discover the talking toes and finger tips the first day I study her. That was 2 years after her initial release.

That covers the testing part , OK?

I do not "use" figures, I study them.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Cough :-)

Left Roxie => To right => Mine
Roxie with one of my faces and some math room work.

Gents, I do not have to "proof" anything any more.

Those that "know" me, "know" enough.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

V, you should never make Roxie look happy, and you're making those bloody lips look too thin again! I've seen Roxie happy, but it's more like a cheeky grin (see pic).

Vilters, what you are describing is a character.  It would be a bad thing if a default figure came with a base mesh with the breasts that you describe, indeed, bad if it comes as a character at all.   However, since most see a figure as presented by its CR2, it would be nice for a base figure to come with  morphs that do what you wish and have that morph preset to 1.0 by default.

At least for me, it is easier to morph larger than smaller.  I would prefer a base mesh that is flat chested with enough polys there to support relatively large shapes.  And as Zev0 sorta says,  the way the mesh is laid out should follow major muscle groups, boney protrusions, tendons etc.  Morphers shoud not have to guess where they are.

The base mesh should be developed with morphing in mind.  The figure as presented should be morphed into an attractive character.  The problem with the presentation morph being added to other character morphs can be solved by a separate Off pose and or the pose files producing another character can turn the presentation character off.

vilters : If you going to use Poser you just half to accept how things are.

The things ya don't like about Sydney ,Alyson original ,Alyson 2 ,Miki4 etc etc
would not be a probleam for you in main apps.

DAZ Poser is for speed so you can have a character right now with a few clicks.
If you want perfection.
You could easly make your version of the perfect mesh in a main App.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

At the risk of derailing the thread (really I'm not trying to), What is the big deal about figure semetry, or lack there of? RL people aren't semetrical. Why do CG people have to be? People keep bringing it up but I've never seen anyone say why it's needed.

---

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10

"At the risk of derailing the thread (really I'm not trying to), What is the big deal about figure semetry, or lack there of? RL people aren't semetrical. Why do CG people have to be? People keep bringing it up but I've never seen anyone say why it's needed."

True, no one is perfectly symmetrical, but from a 'would be developer' point of view, it's absolutely essential otherwise it's not possible to work on the figure and create perfectly mirrored morphs/features etc.

Note I said "would be developer" because I'm not one.  I was going to put the time in and work on a really nice character for Roxie, but the mirroring on the figure doesn't work properly with the morph brush, so I gave up on it.  Some might say don't worry about it, but seriously, if I create a product it would bother me too much if I had to knowingly put out something I knew was subpar.

It's basically just taking pride in what you do.

The part where humans are not symmetrical, you do that after you know the base is perfect, or it's likely to mess-up sooner or later. If something is out even the slightest in symmetry it can cause all sorts of annoying problems which frankly, the content vendors should not have to put up with.

symmetry just makes life easy ;-) for cgi

true most peeps are not quite perfect ;-) remember seeing a telly prog once where they showed pics of peeps ~ some photoshopped to be completly symmetrical !! by and large the assymmetrical peeps won rofl most of the "judges" thought the symmetrical peeps looked "shifty"!

guess thats why theres a beauty spot, but more then one is arrrrggggghhh ;-)

no offence to anyone who is truely symmetrical rofl

Losing symmetry is about the worst thing that can happen to a modeler.

Most modelers (check the youtube video's on how to model clothes for figures) Most modelers use the mirror function to build clothes.

Most modelers use the mirror function to build morphs for figures.
Or they check the "X" mirror to be sure the other side follows.
That is also why the "mirror" was added to the morph brush in Poser.

it cuts the workload in half.

But? When the figure is not symmetrical, all this becomes impossible.

Same goes for rigging, and Weight-and Bulge mapping.
Same goes for the fitting room when a rig is projected into the cloting.
Same goes for copy-left to right.

Losing symmetry in a figure is a nightmare for content creators.

Right up to the moment when the content creator WANTS to add non symmetrical items like buttons or folds, or uneven left-right items. Right up to that very last moment he/she will try to maintain symmetry at all cost.
But this is at the very-very last stage of the building process.

Lose symmetry in a figure, and basically you have lost the figure.
It takes twice the time to build for a non symmetrical figure.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - At the risk of derailing the thread (really I'm not trying to), What is the big deal about figure semetry, or lack there of? RL people aren't semetrical. Why do CG people have to be? People keep bringing it up but I've never seen anyone say why it's needed.

Characters don't half to be symmetrical.

Symmetrical characters can be easier to work on depending on what ya doing.

99.9% of all undressed SubDed characters are symmetrical.
displacement map for a girl symmetrical
displacement map for a male bodybuilder probably not symmetrical,but the base mesh is.

Game meses the cloths are made in to the mesh, so the mesh probably not symmetrical.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Look at my Romans here. LOL.

All is in one figure.

The costume was build and uv-mapped, and test-rigged in Poser perhaps 20-30 times, to check and finetune.
The process was easy because Rex and Roxie are symmetrical, and I have a solid workflow from Blender to Poser to Blender to Poser untill satisfied.

Only after I was absolutely sure that it would behave as required did I add the Speer and the Sword.

these Romans costumes do NOT behave on other figures.
Sydney => Her object file and magnets are NOT symmetrical.
Alyson => Because her magnets are NOT symmetrical
Alyson2 => Because her object file AND her magnets are NOT symmetrical
Miki4 => Because her magnets are NOT symmetrical.

You can not build for something that is not symmetrical.
Certainly for magnets, you never know what is gonna happen when bend.
You can build for the left side, or you can build for the right side.
But no content creator is gonna invest the time to correct for both sides. (or you make it hugely oversize LOL.)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

So, ha-ha-, as you know by now, magnets in figures are the second biggest nightmare for content creators.
Certainly when they are NOT symmetrical.

Rex and Roxie are the very first SM figures to be fully symmetrical in object file and magnets.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

"

At the risk of derailing the thread (really I'm not trying to), What is the big deal about figure semetry, or lack there of? RL people aren't semetrical. Why do CG people have to be? People keep bringing it up but I've never seen anyone say why it's needed.

 

 "

My guess would be for clothes making, and also when you applyreverse poses ie use a script to put the right arm pose on the left arm.

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

"Losing symmetry is about the worst thing that can happen to a modeler.*

Most modelers (check the youtube video's on how to model clothes for figures) Most modelers use the mirror function to build clothes.

Most modelers use the mirror function to build morphs for figures.
Or they check the "X" mirror to be sure the other side follows.
That is also why the "mirror" was added to the morph brush in Poser.

it cuts the workload in half.

But? When the figure is not symmetrical, all this becomes impossible.

Same goes for rigging, and Weight-and Bulge mapping.
Same goes for the fitting room when a rig is projected into the cloting.
Same goes for copy-left to right.

Losing symmetry in a figure is a nightmare for content creators.

Right up to the moment when the content creator WANTS to add non symmetrical items like buttons or folds, or uneven left-right items. Right up to that very last moment he/she will try to maintain symmetry at all cost.
But this is at the very-very last stage of the building process.

Lose symmetry in a figure, and basically you have lost the figure.
It takes twice the time to build for a non symmetrical figure."

Spot-on, Tony, my feelings exactly, I absolutely agree with this 100%

From where I drifted another thread

Quote - How about a kickstart on a discernably Male figure project on the scale of Apollo Max or M4 with Morph++.  maybe Rex fixes upgrades clothes. Say $80 from 250 crowd fund group plus Rendo sales that's $20,000+

A word is not the same with one writer as with another. One tears it from his guts. The other pulls it out of his overcoat pocket
Charles Péguy

 Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

I just end up in whatever camp works with the budget.

When I returned to 3d in July, I went with Daz Studio and then Genesis 2 because of price.

Was a little slow today or I'd be giving Poser a chance again... seeing how there was a thing and then a non-thing all sudden like.

If I'd had Poser 10... I might have ended up on a different path.

 

One benefit I've got is I can easily pull in content made for V4/M4 and Genesis 1 onto a G2M or G2F figure.

I think to do that in Poser I'd have to get the pro version. And I'm not sure if there is a way to pull Genesis 2 content back down to V4/M4.

As for the Smith Micro Figures - I'm really baffled about why the Poser users don't seem to care for or use them. I've not seen them since Poser 7 though - have they not improved in all that time?

Truth has no value without backing by unfounded belief.
Renderosity Gallery

males tend to drift left or right

when u aint got it  modelers run like heck ;-)

 

ps liked Apollo but hes a bugger to model for !! he shoulda had a very very cold morph rofl

this will sound daft 'cos I only just got p14

steph was my "old" fav Sid is the girl I'd fall in love with

yet I keep using Roxie ;-) blame vilters lol

love the mirror in blender

"As for the Smith Micro Figures - I'm really baffled about why the Poser users don't seem to care for or use them. I've not seen them since Poser 7 though - have they not improved in all that time?"

Those older figures are still included, Poser 10's Rex was pretty much doomed by default because he's male, but I'm extremely surprised that Poser 10's Roxie doesn't get used more - I find that really baffling - she's a really good sculpt, she looks very human to me, easy the best figure in the Poser Runtime, at least I personally think so anyway.

I just searched "Roxie" in the galleries and it returned only 62 images total.  That's sixty two images, I mean wow, I just don't get that.  Maybe people are just too set in their ways with their favourite figures to bother with any others.

Hi

As you say, it's all about the art.

I'm using Poser Pro 2014 but I still use the Jessi and James models for almost everything.

That's what I've made all my textures for and I'm not going to do everything all over again every time a new figure comes along.

It's about whether it looks right to you or not.

I think that the Jessi and James models work perfect for the animated videos I do.

I'm not going for photo realism, I'm trying to capture a certain style and I think I'm doing that, so I'm happy with what I do.

Mike

If you shoot a mime, do you need a silencer?

Quote - I'm using Poser Pro 2014 but I still use the Jessi and James models for almost everything.

Mike

You OutLaw you

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - If you've got some background in using DS -- even from four years ago -- then using it now shouldn't create such a barrier.

I spent my first three years noodling around exclusively with DS.  The last version I worked with was 3.1 Advanced.  I recently installed 4.6 Pro to experiment with Genesis.  After customizing the interface, I felt like I was home again.  It has so many features I have sorely missed.

Quote - There's no rule that says you can't use both Poser and Daz Studio, or that you can't use content from both.

Indeed not.  In fact, I'm hoping the next version of Reality will be advanced enough to give me a reason to switch back to DS as part of my primary workflow.  I only switched to Poser for access to IDL, Gamma Correction, and Poser-exclusive content.  Reality made IDL and GC irrelevant.

Quote - If you spend all your time and energy trying to keep up with what all the forum bickering is about, you're just wasting time that you could be spending on creating all that art you wanted to create when you started working with this stuff to begin with.

Good point.  Thank you for the insight.

Quote - In the end, most sane people looking at the art you produce aren't going to care what program was used to create it.

Again, I'm not concerned with people knowing what I used.  I need to know whatever I use will let me do what I want.

It seems everyone is telling me that, just because a new generation of figures comes out doesn't mean the old generation is any less viable or should stop being supported.  My job is to figure out which figure(s) will work best for me, and learn the skills I need to incorporate those figures into my art.

Does that about sum it up?

Quote - > Quote - If you've got some background in using DS -- even from four years ago -- then using it now shouldn't create such a barrier.

I spent my first three years noodling around exclusively with DS.  The last version I worked with was 3.1 Advanced.  I recently installed 4.6 Pro to experiment with Genesis.  After customizing the interface, I felt like I was home again.  It has so many features I have sorely missed.

Quote - There's no rule that says you can't use both Poser and Daz Studio, or that you can't use content from both.

Indeed not.  In fact, I'm hoping the next version of Reality will be advanced enough to give me a reason to switch back to DS as part of my primary workflow.  I only switched to Poser for access to IDL, Gamma Correction, and Poser-exclusive content.  Reality made IDL and GC irrelevant.

Quote - If you spend all your time and energy trying to keep up with what all the forum bickering is about, you're just wasting time that you could be spending on creating all that art you wanted to create when you started working with this stuff to begin with.

Good point.  Thank you for the insight.

Quote - In the end, most sane people looking at the art you produce aren't going to care what program was used to create it.

Again, I'm not concerned with people knowing what I used.  I need to know whatever I use will let me do what I want.

It seems everyone is telling me that, just because a new generation of figures comes out doesn't mean the old generation is any less viable or should stop being supported.  My job is to figure out which figure(s) will work best for me, and learn the skills I need to incorporate those figures into my art.

Does that about sum it up?

Yup. No figure is going to work for everybody, and you may like something that others don't. For instance, as much as I like V4, I do prefer shorter women in real life and prefer to use Olivia and Roxie.

Quote - Yup. No figure is going to work for everybody, and you may like something that others don't.

That makes sense.  I've always thought new equalled better, and better was universal.

Quote - For instance, as much as I like V4, I do prefer shorter women in real life and prefer to use Olivia and Roxie.

V4 can be scaled down, if you like.  It's a trick I learned when I was trying to turn M4 into a 7-ft tall psychopath.  I couldn't get his clothes to properly scale up with him, so I made V4 10% smaller than she is, to compensate, and set her clothes to automatically adjust accordingly.

Quote - V4 can be scaled down, if you like.  It's a trick I learned when I was trying to turn M4 into a 7-ft tall psychopath.  I couldn't get his clothes to properly scale up with him, so I made V4 10% smaller than she is, to compensate, and set her clothes to automatically adjust accordingly.

V4 has a morph for Stephanie 4 who is a much smaller figure. My only regret with her is that she can't wear a lot of V4's clothes because they didn't include the morphs because they came out so late.

"Again, I'm not concerned with people knowing what I used.  I need to know whatever I use will let me do what I want."

If you use V4 I think you're already doing the right thing, because if any figure is going to let you do what you want, it is V4 due to the amount of stuff available for her.  The only way to get more than that is to start modifying her with your own morphs and accessories.  To go further still is surely to create your very own figure, something that suits your ideals in every way.

Lot of work though, modelling, rigging, texturing, etc.

Quote - Those older figures are still included, Poser 10's Rex was pretty much doomed by default because he's male

Apollo Maximus was one of the most widely used and talked about 3rd party figures of them all, and he never had a female counterpart. 

Being male doesn't doom a Poser figure by default. Being poorly designed does, regardless of gender. 

Rex has potential, but just like with Roxie, his design was rushed. If they had included a selection of body and face morphs at release then I think both of them would have received a lot more support than what they have, as many people don't enjoy fighting with the face room to change the look of their characters. They want dials and presets to do that for them. Plus the face room support was botched innitially and took a while to get fixed. 

I like what I've seen of Teyon's work with Rex, but the only examples I've seen of it is from his gallery and the occasional avatar thumb that he changes. I thought we would have seen expansion sets from SM by now that incorporated some of Teyon's work, but so far I haven't seen or heard anything about that. 

I actually thought Apollo Maximus was a character for M4, didn't even know it was a figure!

But yup, I suppose the lack of standard morphs for Roxie might have a lot to do with her not getting enough use, and I totally agree about Teyon's stuff.  He's very gifted,  you don't see much of it, but the bits you do see prove he knows his stuff when it comes to sculpting.

I think he really needs more power in the team though, and more time to do his stuff.  Like I said in that other thread, SM really need their own "Mascot Girl" to compete with Vicky, and they already have the talent to get it done.

Miki is about the closest to a mascot girl SM has gotten so far. And she doesn't get a lot of support, but probably more than any of the other SM figures to date. She's still the #1 seller on CP. 

 

Apollo is older than M4. 

I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that both DAZ and SM (e-frontier at the time) offered to buy Apollo from his creator, which shows how well liked his design was. Again, don't know if that's actually true. And then a few years later, there's genesis. 

 

Apollo Maximus creators name is ?

rummor had it he worked for DAZ before.

rummor had it, it was difficult to make pants for Apollo was why he didn't get a lot of suport.

---

I here about V6 & Dawn all the time .
why don't I ever here about My Michelle ?

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"Apollo is older than M4.

I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that both DAZ and SM (e-frontier at the time) offered to buy Apollo from his creator, which shows how well liked his design was."

Hi Shane,.. not true
 
I was around back then
Feel free to undertake a tedious archeological excavation of the forum archives to see for yourself.. if so inclined.

DAZ vendor/Artist&The creator of ApolloMax (Anton Kiselle) was the first AFAIK to publicly announce here  that DAZ was developing it's own
"figure posing and rendering program"

He also naturally seemed to assume that his new $90 USD Apollo Max Figure was Going to be the Default DAZ Male going forward.

DAZ had other plans in the form of the newly released Millenium man 3, AKA "Mike 3"

Anton took it very personally and undertook a very public and ugly "Divorce" from DAZ inc. using these forums here as his primary platform to Attack his Arch Enemy( Daz)

Long story ,short... he ( and his dedicated band of loyalists) then went on to alienate EVERY major poser content outlet with gratuitous assertions nearly any new figure tech was "stolen" from Apollo Max from V4 to the ill fated "Clarke" male Figure by Artist "Shahara" (IIRC)

Even after his melodramatic self imposed "Exile"
you still found remaining loyalists putting forth ridiculous theories here implying that DAZ M4 was result of a retopo /shrink wrap modifier
pirating of Apollo.

Apollo was a decent Figure in his day but had many flaws
( such as a complete lack of anatomically correct muscle definition)

But  in reality he( Apollo) was a victim of an EXTREME Case of the bizarre phenomenon displayed so often here that results in locked/Deleted threads

An Emotional attachment to a figure/program that closely resembles
the nationalists/ tribal/ religous/ extremism that is causing all the turmoil in the real world today.

 

My website

YouTube Channel

Apolla,created by Anton Kisiel, came out before Victoria 4 and had a lot of scaling and proportion advancements that V4 and the rest of the DAZ generation 4 figures would have.

By the way Victoria 5 &6 and Michael 5 & 6 are not the base figures like Victoria 4 & Michael 4 where.  Genesis is the base for Victoria 5 & Michael 5 and all generation 5 GenePool shapes.  Genesis 2 Female is the base for the base for Victoria 6 and all female generation 5 GenePool shapes.  Genesis 2 Male the base for Michael 5 and all generation 5 male GenePool shapes.

Quote - By the way Victoria 5 & 6  and Michael 5 & 6 are not the base figures like Victoria 4 & Michael 4 where.

Genesis is the base for Victoria 5 & Michael 5 and all generation 5 GenePool shapes.

Genesis 2 Female is the base for Victoria 6 and all female generation 5 GenePool shapes.

Genesis 2 Male the base for Michael 5 and all generation 5 male GenePool shapes.

Thank you for mentioning that.  I've been very confused about the distinction between the base figures, and how they compare to V4 and M4.

Anton Keisel

You don't hear anything about My Michelle over here because the vendors that made content for her are over at RDNA.

Quote - Anton Keisel

You don't hear anything about My Michelle over here because the vendors that made content for her are over at RDNA.

Well, for the record, I don't mention her because I don't own her and know nothing about her. Same goes for Mariko from Animotions.

V4 is a DAZ mesh ,Dawns a hivewire3D mesh, here about them all the time on this forum.
So why wouldn't we hear about RDNA My Michelle mesh.just seems odd that I never hear about that one mesh.& every one says SM needs a mesh like DAZ V4 ,
couldn't that be what My Michelle is ?
since I never hear about My Michelle I'm guessing no one uses her.

Got a active link to Mariko from Animotions ?
couldn't find them on google.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

just curious ,If you sold a 2014 character something like Appollo ,lets say M7 to DAZ or Poser.

What would it be worth ?

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - V4 is a DAZ mesh ,Dawns a hivewire3D mesh, here about them all the time on this forum.
So why wouldn't we hear about RDNA My Michelle mesh.just seems odd that I never hear about that one mesh.& every one says SM needs a mesh like DAZ V4 ,
couldn't that be what My Michelle is ?
since I never hear about My Michelle I'm guessing no one uses her.

Got a active link to Mariko from Animotions ?
couldn't find them on google.

My Michelle is a figure on sale at RDNA. Mariko is a figure that was on sale at Animotions, but now all i get is a parked website. I hadn't heard of them going out of business, so I don't know, but you can also get Mariko at Renderosity. http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/dtg-studios-mariko---stand-alone-/91821

What year was Mariko released ?

Mariko looks all right and said she had 300 morphs ,sounds good.

but

I'm going to use Mariko as a exsample of what not to do.

Don't make a wireframe .jpg to small to see.but if ya do atleast put a polycount on it.
Don't make all the .jgps to small.
Don't say 300 morphs and not show any.

Show some setting poses and expressions and all.
Show me what all she can do.
Show me just how well she does bend .
What abour extreme poses ?

and this is the biggest one of them all.this really drives me insain.
after ya release ya mesh ,don't stop ,it's not over ,it's just started.
Over and over again I've seen them release a mesh and not advertise they don't keep pushing there mesh.

If I did all that work ,I wouldn't just let it go and forget it.
If I release a Poser mesh everyone would be going shut up RorrKonn .
We All know about ya mesh.We all have ya mesh in are runtime.
So shut up.Then I would go make upgrades to drive you all insain telling you all about the new and improved mesh till you all told me to shut about that :)

but what do most do they work hard on a mesh,release the mesh & go to sleep.
I will never get that.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - > Quote - V4 is a DAZ mesh ,Dawns a hivewire3D mesh, here about them all the time on this forum.

So why wouldn't we hear about RDNA My Michelle mesh.just seems odd that I never hear about that one mesh.& every one says SM needs a mesh like DAZ V4 ,
couldn't that be what My Michelle is ?
since I never hear about My Michelle I'm guessing no one uses her.

Got a active link to Mariko from Animotions ?
couldn't find them on google.

My Michelle is a figure on sale at RDNA. Mariko is a figure that was on sale at Animotions, but now all i get is a parked website. I hadn't heard of them going out of business, so I don't know, but you can also get Mariko at Renderosity. http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/dtg-studios-mariko---stand-alone-/91821

Yeah, animotions shut down in August & is moving their original content over to 'Rosity.

Mariko came out around the same time as Poser 9, but she was not weightmapped.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - V4 is a DAZ mesh ,Dawns a hivewire3D mesh, here about them all the time on this forum.

So why wouldn't we hear about RDNA My Michelle mesh.just seems odd that I never hear about that one mesh.& every one says SM needs a mesh like DAZ V4 ,
couldn't that be what My Michelle is ?
since I never hear about My Michelle I'm guessing no one uses her.

Got a active link to Mariko from Animotions ?
couldn't find them on google.

My Michelle is a figure on sale at RDNA. Mariko is a figure that was on sale at Animotions, but now all i get is a parked website. I hadn't heard of them going out of business, so I don't know, but you can also get Mariko at Renderosity. http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/dtg-studios-mariko---stand-alone-/91821

Yeah, animotions shut down in August & is moving their original content over to 'Rosity.

I hate to see them go, but I have to admit, I don't think I've ever bought anything from there. Although I did download some of the superhero costumes.

Mariko is certainly different but not being weight mapped would appeal more to the Poser users that have stuck at an earlier versions.  The fact that she is Japanese would also be an issue for me as a base figure.  I have nothing against Japan or the Japanese and my car for many years has been a Honda that I love but I want my base figure to be a blank canvas.  Of course I want the ethnic morphs as well so that I can have all the ethnic variations but to have a base figure to have such stong ethnic features would, I think, be very limiting.

On the plus side there are some interesting morphs listed such as brows vulcan, tongue forked, Pupil square and Pupil slit vertical.  I would however agree the earlier comment that I would like to see some of these in the promo. 

Without trying to be negative, if Dawn had been launched with this number of morphs perhaps her uptake would have been quicker.  I am sure Dawn will get there but the more morphs on day one the better the chance of hitting the ground running.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - Without trying to be negative, if Dawn had been launched with this number of morphs perhaps her uptake would have been quicker.  I am sure Dawn will get there but the more morphs on day one the better the chance of hitting the ground running.

First to the OP, figure bashing is something to expect, it's gonna happen no matter what.

And to add the quoted, you usually don't get two chances, it's either good at release or dead at release.  Dawn has so many deficiencies it would take me years doing nothing else and she'd still be just below Alyson. YMMV.

Doric.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

 

I see the word hobby at the top of this post and this means fun.

Simplify your art desires to the easiest work flow and create a comic render

http://universeabovetheearth.com/comicstyles/default.html

 Figures get a lot of critisim if the creators do not listen to their beta testers.

Get the correct beta testers, and LISTEN & REPAIR!

it is as simple as that.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

 Figures get a lot of critisim if the creators do not listen to their beta testers.

Get the correct beta testers, and LISTEN & REPAIR!

it is as simple as that.

Vilters, you should know by now that vendors don't listen to anything that could be construed as negative feedback.  They are only interested in hearing how great they are.

 Figures get a lot of critisim if the creators do not listen to their beta testers.

Get the correct beta testers, and LISTEN & REPAIR!

it is as simple as that.

Vilters, you should know by now that vendors don't listen to anything that could be construed as negative feedback.  They are only interested in hearing how great they are.

I don't know about figure bashing, but vendor bashing isn't too friendly, either. :P C'mon, man. Be fair. Lots of vendors create great products and are responsive to their customers' reasonable feedback. They may not always make what you want exactly how you want it, but then that's true of every industry. Painting every vendor with the same broad brush is unreasonable. It's this soft of hyperbolic language, I think, that upsets people.

Edit: I don't personally know many vendors. But I have spoken to a few from time to time, and the impression I get is that most work very hard to create the best products they can, especially given the enormous time constraints they experience. They are overjoyed when someone likes their work, and are devastated when people don't. And frankly for what we pay them, and the ease with which customers can dismiss MONTHS of their work over something trivial -- all but the outright fraudulent ones deserve a lot more appreciation.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

It's largely the anonymity of the internet. If you know someone personally, you tend to soften or even avoid your critiques to them for fear of hurting their feelings.

Frankly, I'm my own biggest critic. I've started lots of things for Roxie and the Poser natives that didn't work out like I wanted and I just quit and started on something else.

It's largely the anonymity of the internet. If you know someone personally, you tend to soften or even avoid your critiques to them for fear of hurting their feelings.

Frankly, I'm my own biggest critic. I've started lots of things for Roxie and the Poser natives that didn't work out like I wanted and I just quit and started on something else.

Yes! That's the impression I get. So many times, I see WIP threads from artists, and I'm thinking, Wow, this is great! When will it be available? And inevitably the artist says, "I just have to fix such and such, and tweak such and such, and when I figure out how to fix this tiny little flaw that no one but me could possibly ever notice...." Sometimes, I think the more valuable feedback is when someone says, "It's done! It's good enough! You can stop now!" :)

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Here's a good example. I've been working on this for a while now. Mainly trying to do the texture. I was just starting to import it into Poser for rigging, but the boots  have artifacts in Poser that I can't explain. They don't seem to exist in Blender. so I'm stumped.

Now I could just release the Denim Jacket and shorts as a set, but I think the boots really make this outfit work, so I'm trying to hold on until I can figure out the boots problem. In the meantime, I've moved on to a ruffle skirt with a floral top set for Roxie.

 Earl? If you want, you can send the boots over, I"ll have a look at them. You have my e-mail.
Have a nice day all.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Vilters to the rescue! (Makes me wish I had the endurance and patience to learn how to model in Blender -- or any app, for that matter -- because peeps here really are so helpful).

The outfit looks truly cool, EC. And actually, I do have to agree: the boots will be a great addition to it. You'll get them figured out, and in this case, it's surely worth the hassle to learn what's going wrong.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I don't know about figure bashing, but vendor bashing isn't too friendly, either. :P C'mon, man. Be fair. Lots of vendors create great products and are responsive to their customers' reasonable feedback. They may not always make what you want exactly how you want it, but then that's true of every industry. Painting every vendor with the same broad brush is unreasonable. It's this soft of hyperbolic language, I think, that upsets people.

Edit: I don't personally know many vendors. But I have spoken to a few from time to time, and the impression I get is that most work very hard to create the best products they can, especially given the enormous time constraints they experience. They are overjoyed when someone likes their work, and are devastated when people don't. And frankly for what we pay them, and the ease with which customers can dismiss MONTHS of their work over something trivial -- all but the outright fraudulent ones deserve a lot more appreciation.

Moriador, I am speaking from my own personal experience.  Brickbats come with dealing with the public and if vendors are too sensitive to it, they should be doing something that doesn't actually require them to deal with the public.
I am sick and damned tired of dropping money on content and then having to spend up to half an hour unscrewing a product because the vendor (and the storefront Q&A - I'm looking at you 'Rosity) was too damned lazy to do the job properly in the first place. 

I am tired of having to go and rename file subfolders because the vendor was too damned lazy to make sure that they were consistent throughout the product.

I am tired of having to delete ego folders, so I can actually find a vendor's product.

I am tired of having to go and create .mc6 files for a Poser 9+ product because the vendor is hell-bent on not leaving behind a Poser 6 workflow.

I am tired of having to go and rename every single material because the vendor decided that 01, 02, 03, was more descriptive than red, green, goldenrod, etc.

I am tired of having to go and delete leading !!!! because the vendor wants their product at the top of my file folder.

I am tired of having to remake thumbnails because the vendor decided to be "creative" and make thumbnails that don't show what the product actually looks like.

I am tired of having to go and rename products so Poser's search function actually works.

I am tired of having to rename folders because the vendor decidedtorrunthenameofeverythingtogether.  (Which also breaks the search function.)

I am tired of having to remove_all_of_the_unnecessary_underscores.  Poser & DS4 do not actually run on DOS.

I am tired of having to delete .rsr files in content made in 2014.

At the end of the day, I don't care how long the vendor spent making a product - as a customer, it is irrelevant.  Those "Enormous Time Constraints" are entirely of their own making.

I don't mind paying a lot more money for a product - what I mind is paying a lot for a product and then having to spend time unscrewing it because the vendor is hell-bent on not paying attention to detail.  My mantra to vendors is:

If you make your product hard to use, I am less like to buy from you in the future.

"I am tired of having to remove_all_of_the_unnecessary_underscores.  Poser & DS4 do not actually run on DOS"

As far as the names for valueParm and targetGeom  - if there is a space in the name - problems may occur. In Poser Editor:

targetGeom NameOneTwo or targetGeom Name_One_Two shows as:

key   targetGeom

value1 NameOneTwo  or Name_One_Two

while  targetGeom Name One Two shows as:

key  targetGeom

value1  Name

value2 One

value3 Two

I foresee problems with ERC code at the very least

Otherwise, I concur with your Writ of Irritations.

I don't know about figure bashing, but vendor bashing isn't too friendly, either. :P C'mon, man. Be fair. Lots of vendors create great products and are responsive to their customers' reasonable feedback. They may not always make what you want exactly how you want it, but then that's true of every industry. Painting every vendor with the same broad brush is unreasonable. It's this soft of hyperbolic language, I think, that upsets people.

Edit: I don't personally know many vendors. But I have spoken to a few from time to time, and the impression I get is that most work very hard to create the best products they can, especially given the enormous time constraints they experience. They are overjoyed when someone likes their work, and are devastated when people don't. And frankly for what we pay them, and the ease with which customers can dismiss MONTHS of their work over something trivial -- all but the outright fraudulent ones deserve a lot more appreciation.

Thank-you for pointing this out (not many do) and I agree... Vendors should get way more appreciation than they do. The Figure and Vendor bashing... and program bashing.. have gotten way way out of hand and really needs to stop... it doesn't do anything or accomplish anything but to drive people out of the community and destroy peoples joy in their work. There's no good reason or need for it.

Vendors are going to do what they think is necessary to maximize their customer base. If they only made products that were compatible with Poser 9+, in terms of file naming, formats, etc., they would be eliminating about 70% or more of their customer base. Those are not realistic expectations for vendors to meet, especially at the prices most content sells for in the Poser market. They have to make what the majority of people are going to buy, and name their files based on what the majority of people are used to. There's nothing wrong with "vanity" folders - it helps keep a specific vendor's products organized in one place, and only a handful of people seem to have a problem with it. How is a vendor supposed to know what other vendors are naming their products? Without vanity folders, it's extremely likely that a new product will overwrite an existing product with the same name, and then you'll really have people complaining. 

     I'll second Shane on the overwrite prevention benefit of "vanity" folders.

     He's also right regarding vendors avoiding use of features which would prevent a lot of Poserians from using it.  Since I have no concern for sales, I'm free to go hog wild with exploiting new features, so that folks can play with those features.  It kind of fills an economically unviable niche.  Hmmm...  spellcheck doesn't like "unviable".

Poser 12, in feet.  

OSes:  Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

Thank-you for pointing this out (not many do) and I agree... Vendors should get way more appreciation than they do. The Figure and Vendor bashing... and program bashing.. have gotten way way out of hand and really needs to stop... it doesn't do anything or accomplish anything but to drive people out of the community and destroy peoples joy in their work. There's no good reason or need for it.

I show my appreciation with my money - which is the most important way to show it.  What some people around here call "bashing" is what other people call "constructive criticism".  Mediocre vendors are driving me (and more importantly, my money) to other storefronts. 

Positive feedback loops are never a good thing.

I started this hobby in 2006, and have barely scratched the surface of what's possible with either DS or Poser.  And I know nothing about modeling.

As someone who still considers themselves a relative newbie, I find myself increasingly frustrated with the ongoing debates over the quality and support for new figure meshes.  The more I read, the more I regret having gotten into this hobby in the first place.  I keep wondering why I even bother trying to learn new skills when there's no guarantee the content I want to use will be supported.

I understand V4 is ancient tech.  From my perspective, on the surface, Genesis looks like a viable alternative, but everything I've read by more experienced users and content creators has said it's worse than V4.  Understanding why has been like trying to read Greek.

I also understand Dawn was supposed to be the ideal replacement for V4.  Again, more experienced users concluded she was all hype, and she's received minimal support from content creators.

I feel stuck in the middle of a tug of war between my desire to use new tech, and a community who says the new tech sucks.  Meanwhile, vendors continue creating content for V4.

Last October, I built a new PC with parts specifically chosen for the primary task of rendering 3D art.  Is there any point in my continuing to use it for that purpose, or has the divide between the tech and community support widened too much to bother anymore?  I have much more enjoyable interests to spend my free time on that don't give me headaches.

I love Victoria 3 and Michael 3. I never cared for V4 or later stuff. Anyway, it all depends on the kind of art you're wanting/trying to do.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Constructive criticism isn't telling someone to go educate themselves or calling them names in a WIP thread when the OP is trying to create something new or is trying a new idea or method. It isn't constructive, it doesn't help with the creative process in any way... what it does do is run people down for no good reason and for no purpose. Telling someone their item/figure/image is garbage/looks like c**** isn't helpfull... Telling someone to do things a specific way and only that way and insulting them or putting them down when they won't isn't helpfull... Making unreasonable demands and ranting when no-one will give in to them is not helpfull... There is nothing "constructive" about it

Constructive Criticism shows both good and bad points and provides suggestions on various things that could be done... it allows for room for more than one preference or opinion and also allows the person that asked for the critique to have his preferences as well. Constructive Criticism also is respectful of the idea/effort the person is making and is not simply a list of demands or instructions saying they must or they have to... but most importantly it is helpful and constructive and it acknowledges the good parts of the work as well as the bad...

There is a vast difference between constructive criticism and bashing... and much of what happens these days in many forums is bashing plain and simple... to try and claim it's anything else is ridiculous!

^We need a like button for this post.

 There's nothing wrong with "vanity" folders - it helps keep a specific vendor's products organized in one place, and only a handful of people seem to have a problem with it. How is a vendor supposed to know what other vendors are naming their products? Without vanity folders, it's extremely likely that a new product will overwrite an existing product with the same name, and then you'll really have people complaining. 

Your argument boils down to:

"Everyone needs to keep training wheels on their bikes because a couple of kids don't want to take them off."

Any time someone brings up runtime organization, those of us who would like a bit of rationality are shouted down by the All Hail the Poser 4 workflow crowd AKA the Luddites.  As the customer, I don't care who the vendor is that made a product.  The only place I should see an ego folder is in the Geometries folder or the Texture folder.  If a vendor puts an ego folder anywhere else, it slows down the use of the product.

As far as naming a product - apparently vendors aren't smart enough to name their product .  Ego folder goes away, identical naming issue goes away, and the vendor can still stroke their ego by having their name in the product without hiding the product.  OTOH, these are the same folks that name their material pose files MAT_foo1,  MAT_foo2, (which renders the Poser search function useless.)  God forbid a vendor do something to make their product easy to find.

If you don't have a lot of content, then an ego folder isn't an issue - those of us who spend way too much money here have 1st world problems (i.e. 500+Gbs of runtime content).  I wrote this in 2013 when talking about ego folders - it still applies today.....

Allow me to show you what I, as the customer, have to deal with every single time I fire up Poser........

I decide to make a render.  Load Figure (it can be any figure).  Figure needs an outfit.  Go to the character folder to add conforming clothing - Am I looking at clothing?  No, I am looking at 100+ vendor names (aka ego folders).  Now I have to open EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM until I find that dress I am looking for.  If I am lucky it is just 1 ego folder, if I am not, I have to drill down yet another level - for every single vendor - and yes, I have a number of products that have ego subfolders inside of ego folders.

 Ok, now do I like the default material?  If I don't, I need to change it.  Now the real fun begins.

Did the vendor follow Poser standards and make .mc6 files and put them in the Materials folder?

If yes, then I go to the material room - I am once again confronted by 100+ vendor names. No problem, after all I know the vendor name from rooting around in the character folder, right?

No.  Because I tend to buy a 3rd party add-on pack to stretch the value of the clothing item.  Now I have to root around in 100+ vendor names individually, until I find what I am looking for.  And yes, I do have to open every single one of them, because most vendors that make add on packs are not smart enough to name their products <add-on pack> for . And then there are the vendors that use differing folder names between character and material and/or pose folder.

 If the vendor continues to use .pz2 materials (a hack for Poser 4), I have to do the exact same thing in the Pose folder.

 If I am not for sure, guess what?  I have to do it in BOTH folders, because vendors can't follow the established, 8+ year standard.

 Rinse & repeat for EVERY SINGLE ITEM IN THE SCENE.

Please explain what is so damned hard to understand about having MATERIALS in the MATERIALS folder and POSES in the POSE folder.

With the exception of the .mc6 issue, everything I talked about earlier applies from at least Poser 5 forward. 

It's 2014, let Poser 6 go already.

Thank-you for proving my point Ssgbryan... making statements like "apparently vendors aren't smart enough to name their product.." is a perfect example of bashing rather than being constructive... it is also a great illustration of making demands based on your "opinion" on the way things should be at this point and then running vendors down for not meeting up with your demands... despite other posts which have pointed out different views than yours in the matter...

I noticed earlier that you'd also said that "vendors never want to hear anything except how great they are..." I have to say perhaps you'd have better luck getting vendors to listen to your comments if you asked rather than demanded and insulted them. I know and am friends with a number of vendors and I know for a fact that none of them would refuse a reasonable request for a feature in a product when it was presented to them politely and as a request... but I can also say with absolute certainty that when people send demands and are rude or insulting most will simply toss the email in the trash and ignore it... (see my previous post regarding constructive criticism)

Ssgbryan - You are probably fighting a battle that you cannot win. It is almost like a clash of right brain logic against left brain logic. You have vented, but you are likely destined to continue performing your own reorganization.  If you concede this, why not take it one step further ? As long as you are text editing a product:

PP2014 allows any Library file to load from any Library category.

Most products have a 1:1 relationship of OBJ:cr2/pp2/hr2    PNG:product  pz2/mc6/mt5:product   PMD:product   INJ.pz2:product

Make a unique Libraries folder for each product.  In it = cr2/pp2/hr2 , PMD , OBJ , readme

Make a subfolder for Material poses (because there are usually so many).

Make a subfolder for Textures.   If there are Material poses, make the Textures folder a subfolder of the Material poses folder.

Use relative paths. 

For the OBJ,  the path =  ":NAME.obj"  

For the PMD =  ":NAME.pmd"  

For textures  =  ":Mats:Tex:NAME.png"  for the cr2 etc  and  Material poses =  ":Tex:NAME.png"

I found that relative paths go down stream just fine, but do not like going parallel, which is why Tex should be under Mats and not beside it.

Doing this makes the product very portable.  The Geometries folder is very lean.  The Textures folders is very lean. 

     Some caution would be wise here.  The relationship of OBJ to cr2/pp2 and mt5/mc6 is not 1:1 with stuff that I make. 

     A given item may have multiple mt5/mc6 files to offer variety.  Roxie's skate boots have two cr2 versions (leafy green & yellow, White & pink);  both use the same OBJs.  My old pixie dress for several dolls had several OBJs (one for each doll), and 8-10 material files to change color/fabric, but any mc6 worked for any cr2/OBJ, so that you could apply any material to any dress.

     I have a pack of textures for Thorne's Universal Wings;  there's maybe a dozen cr2s, and they all call Thorne's OBJ.

     I also re-use texturing images (generally, asymmetrical seamless tiles) for multiple projects.

     I don't think I'm the only one who does this.

Poser 12, in feet.  

OSes:  Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

A totally dedicated folder is not appropriate for all products. It requires judgement.  The OOT Hairblending products all use common textures, so not keeping these textures in Textures is not appropriate for this method.  For OBJ and textures that are used by multiple figures, the traditional method using Geometries and Textures is better.

On the other hand, Roxie skate boots - both cr2 can live in the same folder with their OBJ.  And, Roxie herself - unlike Dawn or V4, her OBJ already is in her Libraries folder.

Having in Materials mt5/mc6 that are useful for multiple figures or props is appropriate.  Not having these buried under a bunch of poses that are only for individual products  - they are easier to find.  

For hair,  all can be in Hair even if they are cr2 or pp2.  2nd party hair texture add-ons and their poses are easier to find and use if they are in the folder with their hair product.  Those with prop extras - the props can be in the folder with the hair they come with.  If it is something that you want to use for other things, then keep them in Props. 

If you collect characters, they are easier to manage with one folder per character with the textures, Mat poses, and morphs.  In my case, I spawn a single head morph and single body morph for each character and keep them in the folder.  Once done, the !Ego folders with morphs can be deleted (just keep the original zip somewhere, just in case).

 Earl? If you want, you can send the boots over, I"ll have a look at them. You have my e-mail.
Have a nice day all.

I appreciate the offer Tony, but I think I may have figured this one out after all. It's just a matter of what to do about it and how.

Ssgbryan - You are probably fighting a battle that you cannot win. It is almost like a clash of right brain logic against left brain logic. You have vented, but you are likely destined to continue performing your own reorganization.  If you concede this, why not take it one step further ? As long as you are text editing a product:

PP2014 allows any Library file to load from any Library category.

Most products have a 1:1 relationship of OBJ:cr2/pp2/hr2    PNG:product  pz2/mc6/mt5:product   PMD:product   INJ.pz2:product

Make a unique Libraries folder for each product.  In it = cr2/pp2/hr2 , PMD , OBJ , readme

Make a subfolder for Material poses (because there are usually so many).

Make a subfolder for Textures.   If there are Material poses, make the Textures folder a subfolder of the Material poses folder.

Use relative paths. 

For the OBJ,  the path =  ":NAME.obj"  

For the PMD =  ":NAME.pmd"  

For textures  =  ":Mats:Tex:NAME.png"  for the cr2 etc  and  Material poses =  ":Tex:NAME.png"

I found that relative paths go down stream just fine, but do not like going parallel, which is why Tex should be under Mats and not beside it.

Doing this makes the product very portable.  The Geometries folder is very lean.  The Textures folders is very lean. 

Portability isn't an issue - ease of use is.  I could do all of that extra work for materials - or I could simply fire up Batch Material Converter by Netherworks and convert  60+Gb worth of material .pz2s to .mc6s and move them to the materials folder automatically in about 90 seconds.  That is the easy part and it is what I do with my legacy content. 

The hard part is going through and renaming the names from Mat_Foo01,  Mat_Foo02, etc to something that the Poser search function can pick up.  Or the joy of renaming materials from 01 Foo01, 02 Foo02, to Blue Foo01, Red Foo02 etc.  Or the fun in reworking over 100 .png files because the vendor decided to be "creative" by giving me a .png for 30 or 40 items that don't actually show the product - so I have to actually click on each one to see what the product either is or what it looks like and then spend an hour or so making useful thumbnails as opposed to "creative" ones.

The ability to put any product in any folder is not a new feature to 2014 - it has been available for a while (not that anyone noticed).  I am not talking about text editing. The only time I do that is when dealing with the hard-coded locations in files in the unique subfolders (such as !DAZ) so they can go in the morphs subfolder that vendors are moving to. 

What I am talking about is using Poser 9+ conventions on Poser 9+ products and product usability from the customer's perspective, which ties into lack of attention to detail.

Another example - SM added a scene folder to the visible Poser runtime structure.  Vendors are putting .pz3 files in them (Yay, vendors are actually using a Post-Poser 7 feature!)  But many of them don't put a .png with it - the customer has to load the damned thing to see what it looks like because the vendor couldn't be bothered to add a .png file with it.  And somehow, something as simple as that got through QA.  Vendors (and storefronts) don't appear to look at their products from the perspective of the customer.

Which, believe it or not, affects sales - Is the customer willing to spend $15 dollars on an item if they know, based on past experience with the vendor, that they are going to spend anywhere from 30 minutes to a couple of hours to address issues the vendor and/or storefront should have addressed before the product was added to the marketplace.  For me, the answer is no.  The product has to be at least 50% off, if I know I am going to spend anywhere from 30 minutes to a couple hours to make it Poser 9+ compliant.  (In V4's case, it can't be more than $5.00 - sorry vendors, but that is what happens in a saturated market - what makes your hookerware better than all of the other hookerware out there for V4.)  Whereas, I will happily pay (and have paid & will pay again) $15-30 for a Poser 9+ product that is actually set up for Poser 9+.

I am also frustrated because almost all of the content being made in 2014 is not actually any better than the content that was made in 2004.  Which also affects buying decisions.  Why should I pay $15 for an item that isn't any better than an item made in 2004?

The "Vintage" thingie 'Rosity just implemented has really driven that home.  The biggest difference between a product made in 2004 and a product made in 2014 appears to be the increase in texture size.  It certainly isn't the products themselves.

Ssgbryan... honestly if you are that dissatisfied with the many 1000's of products available from the many 1000's of vendors out there in the 3D/Poser/Daz community, and if you honestly believe that you can do a better job then I most heartily invite you to become a vendor... do a better job of it than the rest of us and prove us all wrong. Be my guest and go for it!

In the mean-time if you already are a vendor you should know better than to run other vendors down, and if you aren't then you really are not in a position to dictate what a vendor must and must not do. You've posted these rants many times in many different threads and have gotten answers from both vendors and other customers/product users repeatedly that show that not all users agree with you. Contrary to your opinion we vendors do talk regularly with our customers, we get feed back and criticism, and we do make changes and additions to products where and when it's reasonable to do so. What is not possible is to meet every single demand every single user makes based on how they prefer to have files set up, arranged and organized, or to have specific features added, based on the personal preferences of each customer. Every single user has a different way they would like things to be arranged and different things they'd like to have included and it would be completely impossible to meet those requirements in a general release product. Vendors would be better off doing custom projects for each individual user in that case and believe me you wouldn't be paying no 15$ for a product at that point... A vendor could spend his entire lifetime working on a single product if we had to do specific file structures and features for every possible variation of that item a customer would like to see and it's just simply not reasonable to expect a vendor to do so.

And before you say it... no... what you are doing is not "constructive criticism" so lets not even go there... you've already had a reply on that....

** HOLD on to YOUR hat, this is gonna STINK.**

The vendors :
Years ago, many years ago, I bought 3 Products. They where Soooooo bad, that I swore to never-ever buy anything again.

a) Was Loretta, WHAW, how can someone invent such a mess.............

b) Little One. the nicest head of the whole Poser universe, but Oh dear Lord in Heaven, how can any twisted brain come with a body like that?????????

c) Was a male figure, that I deleted after less then 55 seconds. It did not even last a single minute on my HD.

So far for the vendors.

The companies  :

SM, this is the Poser forum, so let us start with SM.

• Some object files are not symmetericval, Sydney and Alyson2 are the worst of the lot.
  - All native poser figures have magnets that are way , - and I repeat - WAYout of symmetry.
  As a content creator the wanna-be vendor that wants to build for them, never knows what is gonna happen left-right with his/her outfit.
• Dependencies, another bad luck moment in the symmetry department.

The main issue with SM figures, are object file symmetry, magnet symmetry, and denpendencies symmetries.. This combined with some odd rigging choices, and one understands why they are not popular at all.

DAZ split with Poser compatibility with the Genesis1 series. i was not in the least intersted, so let them go. Bey-bey.
But, after a year and lots od discussions, I loaded my first Genesis1 female in Poser.

MORE THEN A YEAR after release, ME, MYSELF and I, had to discover the talking toes and fingertips in the Genesis 1 Series of figures.
What about the creators? What about the beta-test team? What about the BIG mouths woh wanted to "FORCE FEED" Genesis throught he Poser end users community??

End of the Genesis1 Story.

The whole end user base SCREAMS for full Poser compatibility. What does DAZ do?
Right, they come with Genesis2. How STUPID and self distructing can a company be??

Then comes Hivewire out of nowhere.
Hivewire? Who or what is that?
They create a 2 month long hype with a "new Poser and DS" compatible figure.

At release date they come with a mesh technology that dates from between V3 and V4, build in DS for DS and then "half" converted to get it "half working in Poser.
And with a super oversaturated texture to bend bike steering wheel handles over.

And then someone is not satisfied over figure bashing??????

And then someone says, And

IS this over-reacting?
When on average there are 42 symmetry magnets errors in ALL of the SM figures?

When an obvious error like talking toes and fingertips are only accidently discovered by an end user a WHOLE YEAR after release?

When a "new" figure is clearly more then 10 year old technology?

Are we, end Users, Over reacting???

And YES, this post was meant to be HARD on some.

When on average there arte

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Please note in my previous posts I'm speaking of individual vendors and content creators... some company issues are a completely different kettle of fish and we've all had issues with some of the choices they make. Also please note that as a customer I do in fact agree with some points made in regards to content and have said so in response to other posts in other threads. As a customer I've never met a content creator that was completely unwilling to answer a question or consider a request so long as it was politely worded and respectfully approached, and that includes myself as a vendor... when customers have approached me with requests or issues I've been only too happy to consider what they've asked and make changes where I was able and where it was reasonable to do so...

Honestly, speaking strictly as a forum user and setting everything else aside, I think it's frankly disgusting that anyone would come into a thread, in which the topic is that bashing of any sort is leading a person to want to leave the community and his/her hobby, and then using it as an excuse to jump on a soapbox (to bash vendors, companies or anything else for that matter). All it does is confirm for the OP that bashing is alive and well, and that his/her wanting to leave is justified... it just serves to further drive them out to no-ones gain...

To the OP... I am very sorry that you feel as you do and that the figure bashing is influencing your enjoyment of your hobby... I would add my voice to others in that what matters most is that you yourself are happy with your art and time. What programs, figures and items you use is entirely up to you and the opinions of others shouldn't be allowed to ruin your own joy.

Honestly it takes me 2 min to re-organize the files if they are not to my satisfaction, EG remove vendor names, match pose, materials folder name with character etc. Will that stop me from buying a product that I want or find useful? Probably not. With regards to bashing, users are just frustrated that figures come out and don't deliver what they promised, or contain issues that could have been avoided if only they actually tested the thing properly before setting it live. And, well, some are just plain ugly and sub-par by todays standards....

My Renderosity Store

 Earl? If you want, you can send the boots over, I"ll have a look at them. You have my e-mail.
Have a nice day all.

I appreciate the offer Tony, but I think I may have figured this one out after all. It's just a matter of what to do about it and how.

Well, I fixed the boots. Now I'm having other problems. Think I need to start my own thread on this one.

I purchased my first vendor item in 2000 and I dread to think of the money I have spent on vendor items in the fourteen years since then.  There are I couple of vendors I have purchased from only once but that is small fry compared with the vendors I go back to time and time again.  I must have almost a full catalogue from some venders, 3-d-c, Fabiana, Ironman13, Mihrelle, and Fugazi 1968 all fall in to that category.  Out of those I only had one product that had an issue and, that was a compatibility issue with another script I used in Poser, it was sorted in 48 hours in a very helpful manner.  Other venders such as Marforno and Danie, Exnem and the Toyman all produce products that regularly fall into my cart.  All of my purchases from these and others are used on a regular basis not just sat in a runtime waiting to be used.   I do sometimes play with the textures, not because those supplied are bad but to add a touch of conformity to my renders.

If I dread the thought of how much I paid for all this then the thought of the hours spent creating this stuff is even more terrifying.  For the money they make on each individual sale I think vendors should be applauded not criticised.  I cannot put a percentage on it but the vast majority of the items in my runtime have worked out of the box and to my satisfaction and have done so for 14 years.  I wonder how many other industries can match that.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

I purchased my first vendor item in 2000 and I dread to think of the money I have spent on vendor items in the fourteen years since then.  There are I couple of vendors I have purchased from only once but that is small fry compared with the vendors I go back to time and time again.  I must have almost a full catalogue from some venders, 3-d-c, Fabiana, Ironman13, Mihrelle, and Fugazi 1968 all fall in to that category.  Out of those I only had one product that had an issue and, that was a compatibility issue with another script I used in Poser, it was sorted in 48 hours in a very helpful manner.  Other venders such as Marforno and Danie, Exnem and the Toyman all produce products that regularly fall into my cart.  All of my purchases from these and others are used on a regular basis not just sat in a runtime waiting to be used.   I do sometimes play with the textures, not because those supplied are bad but to add a touch of conformity to my renders.

If I dread the thought of how much I paid for all this then the thought of the hours spent creating this stuff is even more terrifying.  For the money they make on each individual sale I think vendors should be applauded not criticised.  I cannot put a percentage on it but the vast majority of the items in my runtime have worked out of the box and to my satisfaction and have done so for 14 years.  I wonder how many other industries can match that.

You don't want to total up what you have spent.  Trust me on this one.  I stopped counted once I crossed the $10,000 barrier a number of years back.  I just look at it as a better investment than spending it down at the local "gentleman's"  clubs....

 

You don't want to total up what you have spent.  Trust me on this one.  I stopped counted once I crossed the $10,000 barrier a number of years back.  I just look at it as a better investment than spending it down at the local "gentleman's"  clubs....
Glad I am not alone and your right, if you take the amount I spent and divided it by the number of weeks in the last fourteen years it is probably below the cost of a night on the town.  Not only that I still have the content that I can use today. 

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

I understand V4 is ancient tech.  From my perspective, on the surface, Genesis looks like a viable alternative, but everything I've read by more experienced users and content creators has said it's worse than V4.  Understanding why has been like trying to read Greek.

I may be able to help you out here...

While I no longer use Poser, I do have one bright spot that I discovered in all of this (oddly enough, with D|S). I held out against using Genesis, mostly because I had a mountain of V4 stuff. Then, they came out with V4 for Genesis... it was like seeing your girlfriend's boobs for the first time. All of the V4 stuff I owned just fit - and no need to push and pull to get it to fit anymore - it just did, even on custom G2F meshes. ...at least in my case, that was the perfect solution. 

Now for Poser? I don't know if Poser has anything similar, but you can at least use D|S to get the G2F figure fleshed-out and clothed, then export to Poser to do what you will after that.

While I no longer use Poser, I do have one bright spot that I discovered in all of this (oddly enough, with D|S). I held out against using Genesis, mostly because I had a mountain of V4 stuff. Then, they came out with V4 for Genesis... it was like seeing your girlfriend's boobs for the first time. All of the V4 stuff I owned just fit - and no need to push and pull to get it to fit anymore - it just did, even on custom G2F meshes. ...at least in my case, that was the perfect solution. 

Now for Poser? I don't know if Poser has anything similar, but you can at least use D|S to get the G2F figure fleshed-out and clothed, then export to Poser to do what you will after that.

Not trying to bash D/S here, but this is where the whole workflow argument falls apart for me. My goal is to reduce my workflow, not increase it. So adding another software in the mix just goes against the grain for me. I'd rather just use V4 or V4WM. I get to use all my V4 stuff and my favorite software and I don't have to jump through 24 other hoops to do it.

Now for Poser? I don't know if Poser has anything similar, but you can at least use D|S to get the G2F figure fleshed-out and clothed, then export to Poser to do what you will after that.

Poser does - copy morphs from.  What is truly great about it is that you no longer need to have ANY character morphs in the clothing.  You can load a figure, apply a character, turn that dial-spin into a single FBM (via dials to single morph) then use copy morphs from to inject the resulting FBM into the clothing.  Viola!  Even better, once you do that, you can go and delete all of those now unneeded morphs to make a smaller figure.  I am able to take a fully loaded V4 (292MB figure) and reduce it to 22MB.  Not important if one is doing NVIATWAS renders, but for storyboarding multiple figures in a scene, it is almost mandatory.

Poser does - copy morphs from.  What is truly great about it is that you no longer need to have ANY character morphs in the clothing.  You can load a figure, apply a character, turn that dial-spin into a single FBM (via dials to single morph) then use copy morphs from to inject the resulting FBM into the clothing.  Viola!  Even better, once you do that, you can go and delete all of those now unneeded morphs to make a smaller figure.  I am able to take a fully loaded V4 (292MB figure) and reduce it to 22MB.  Not important if one is doing NVIATWAS renders, but for storyboarding multiple figures in a scene, it is almost mandatory.

Good to hear! It's one of those features that is pure money in my book... 

Can you take V4 clothes and put them on a different figure as well? I love the ability to take my existing shedload of V4 stuff and put them on a more capable figure w/o a hitch.

Not trying to bash D/S here, but this is where the whole workflow argument falls apart for me. My goal is to reduce my workflow, not increase it.

 I can grok that... it works in my case because I never leave D|S (except to maybe LuxRender or suchlike.)  On the Poser side of things, you might be able to get away with only exporting the character once, then importing that export into Poser, then trying to get the V4 clothing on it in Poser (not really sure if that would work though - if not, you can fit the V4 clothing in D|S initially, then export the clothing as a .cr2?) Either way, you only have to do it once, in the beginning. You can then save the results for later use w/o leaving Poser.

PS: Why does the new forum software get all wonky when it comes to quoting? Ugh.

Addendum: Notify seems to be broke as well...

Can you take V4 clothes and put them on a different figure as well? I love the ability to take my existing shedload of V4 stuff and put them on a more capable figure w/o a hitch.

Yes, by user Poser's new Fitting Room feature.

Poser does - copy morphs from.  What is truly great about it is that you no longer need to have ANY character morphs in the clothing.  You can load a figure, apply a character, turn that dial-spin into a single FBM (via dials to single morph) then use copy morphs from to inject the resulting FBM into the clothing.  Viola!  Even better, once you do that, you can go and delete all of those now unneeded morphs to make a smaller figure.  I am able to take a fully loaded V4 (292MB figure) and reduce it to 22MB.  Not important if one is doing NVIATWAS renders, but for storyboarding multiple figures in a scene, it is almost mandatory.

Good to hear! It's one of those features that is pure money in my book... 

Can you take V4 clothes and put them on a different figure as well? I love the ability to take my existing shedload of V4 stuff and put them on a more capable figure w/o a hitch.

Multiple ways of doing that.  Wardrobe Wizard has been around since the Poser 6 days - was integrated into Poser 8.  Xdresser is a 3rd party app that has been around for a few years.  The latest version of Poser Pro comes with the Fitting Room.  I can take a V4 outfit & slap it on Dawn in about 30 seconds (when using Lyrra's most excellent - Fitting room magnets for Dawn), other figures take between 90 seconds and 5 minutes (if adjustments are needed).  Not 100% perfect, but this is version 1.0 for the new room.  I expect better things in the next version, next summer. The GameDev version of Poser adds even more power with Combine figures which allows me to take a figure & clothing and reduce it to 1 figure.  Reduce Polygons allows me to make the figure even lighter.  Want the latest weightmapping tech in your legacy figures? - Merge all zones to weight maps automagically does most of the tedious work for you, allowing you to concentrate on just adjusting JCMs.  It doesn't do all of the work, what is left to do isn't all that hard, just attention to detail stuff.  Then of course there is the ability to subdivide - you can also apply this to legacy figures.  See Attached image - That is the LoRes Poser 2 female figure (Left - subdivision 0 Right - subdivision 3).

Don't need to go out & spend hundreds of dollars on new figures (and content), when you can simply upgrade the figures you currently have.  Numerous legacy figures have already been weight mapped to include V4, V3, D3, Terai Yuki, Antonia, Michelle, Kez, & Koz.  As far as newer figures, we have Dawn & Dusk (from the creator of the original Victoria & Michael), Ryan2, Alyson2, Miki 4, Rex, & Roxie.

Lots of capabilities in Poser, one just has to read the documentation & use it.....

Well, apparently, the new & unimproved forum will not allow me to post an image - what a POS.

Lots of posts in here I'd like to "like" or "+1" or "thumbs-up". :)

On vendors:

Recently, I noticed that a vendor whose stuff I really like got a 1 star review because he provides his models in obj format so they can be easily used in any app that supports obj. The product review noted that the models were great, but it was too much of a pain to get them to "work" in Poser or DS.

I like this vendor because he makes extremely detailed models, (ie: a farm with ploughed land, houses, a barn, animals, buckets, barrels, food troughs, feedbags, etc) with great texture maps (even specular maps that AREN'T merely a greyscale version of the diffuse map). And he sells these models for $10. Yes, they are in obj format. Yes, all the materials have to be tweaked after import because the maps don't plug in correctly. Yes, he uses generic map names like roof.jpg, so you often have to rename them all to avoid texture crosstalk if you load more than one of his models in a scene). Yes, on one, out of 15 of his products I've purchased, there are a couple of missing polys after import. Yes, you have to scale the items after import. Yes, frequently the models are one welded prop, so if you want doors to open or separate props, you have spawn them yourself with the grouping tool. Yes, to all that -- BUT I would much rather spend the ten or twenty minutes fixing these things than paying an extra $20 to have him do it for me. $40 an hour isn't terrible pay for my time, so I feel I'm getting a good deal, especially considering the fact that it would take me a couple of YEARS to make any one of his products myself.

In any case, I (and another customer) followed the 1 star review with our own, making the point that the vendor DID NOT mislead anyone into thinking that the models came in a Poser ready format. And that it wasn't rocket science to get them to work very well. We also gave our opinions about the quality of his work. And the five stars he deserved. (I'd have given six if I could). He sent me a PM that was very gracious and thankful. Why? Because you don't make much money as a vendor. Very few people LIVE on the proceeds. You do it because you enjoy it, because you like sharing your work, and sell it because this is an expensive hobby and you need to make SOME of that money back if you can. To be told that your work is rotten because it doesn't conform to someone else's extremely restrictive workflow is simply cruel -- and it will destroy your desire to continue.

Poser vendors are individuals with feelings. They are not giant corporations with a publicity department. To take the sort of entitled mindset that you have as a customer of a corporation with an individual human being is to grant yourself far more importance than you really have. I'll explain:

I used to run a liquor store in Texas, and at some point, my mother bought it, so I worked, essentially for her. Previously, I had to put up with a whole lot of abuse from customers over issues ranging from prices to selling to them when they were drunk to asking them for an ID. As soon as the store was no longer under the control of a corporation (albeit a very small one), those customers no longer had any hold over me, and I took great pleasure in telling the worst of them that my self respect was worth more than their $10 a week, so they could go shove their money where the sun don't shine.

And frankly, were I a Poser vendor, and I heard some of the criticisms of work that I've heard on these forums, that's exactly what I'd say. Yes, you can expect anything you want for your measly $10. And, yes, I -- as an individual -- can tell you to shove your expectations... where the sun don't shine.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

And ssgbryan, some of your criticisms are valid. But you're beating your head against the wrong wall.

Here's my unasked for advice: Click the icon next to your sitemail icon that tells you how to become a vendor at Renderosity. Read the list of CURRENT requirements for Poser ready products. If you think that something needs to be added to this, take it up with Renderosity's admins. They're the ones who can make the changes you desire, IF they decide they are needed. If they decide that they're not needed, then please accept that you're just out of luck because obviously there aren't enough other customers with your peculiar needs or desires.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

 @Moriador

There are times when your posts are a breath of fresh air in an other wise dank atmosphere, to be able to realise there is an individual behind the name posted anywhere on the Internet is rare.  To defend someone who has had a rough deal is something few people do. 

If only more people would look at what they are saying before they post it, not only here but on the Internet in general, it would be a much better experience.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

 @Moriador

There are times when your posts are a breath of fresh air in an other wise dank atmosphere, to be able to realise there is an individual behind the name posted anywhere on the Internet is rare.  To defend someone who has had a rough deal is something few people do. 

If only more people would look at what they are saying before they post it, not only here but on the Internet in general, it would be a much better experience.

Aww shucks. Thank you. (FTR, I feel the same about your posts. I wish we had a way to "like" or rate posts. You'd get a like every time from me, I think. And not just when you're saying nice things about me.:D ) I'm as guilty as most, when it comes to bad internet behavior. But I do try to make up for past (and current) mistakes. Getting a PM from someone does remind you that they are a human being. I've also spoken via Skype to a lot of people I've "met" online. It's amazing how some give a very different impression when they're no longer using the keyboard to communicate. I like to think I'm good with the English language, but I've had so many of my comments misinterpreted in so many different places that I have to concede I'm very frequently not nearly as clear as I need to be. And if I'm not very clear -- or my mood or tone isn't obvious --, surely everyone else labors under the same burden.

I also sometimes forget all that. :| 

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Due to the total lack of body language and expression it is very easy to be misinterpreted and even easier if the reader is does not have English as their first language.  I always like to try and keep that in mind when reading but I am not always successful.  There are however some things written to individuals on the Internet which are either written without any thought of the persons feelings or in some cases explicitly to cause harm, offence or both.   Even here I suppose that we have to be careful because there is no reason why someone who is suffering a mental illness (that might explain the writing) should be banned from the internet.  However, even with this thought in mind, there seems to be a rather large number of people who want to upset, belittle or impose their views on others, which is a shame.

I don't think any vendor here goes out of their way to produce a bad product, some might be looking for a price not realistic in this market, although it may be fair when compared with the effort put in.  I have a runtime full of fantastic stuff thanks to a lot of vendors for which I am thankful but the one aspect the Internet does have in common with other communication methods and that is it is easy to criticise and condemn.  Not that I don't criticise, I do, but I try to make it constructive and keep in mind that if I criticise I should also be even handed and praise people/vendors also.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

I agree, hornet.

When I first started to collect content, I looked at Daz, for example, as being like Smith Micro (or actually, I think it was eFrontier back then) -- a reasonably large corporation, and I felt no compunction about offering my criticisms. I've since then learned that things aren't quite the way I imagined them. These days -- since I don't know how to model -- I see vendors as absolutely essential partners in my projects. I pay them and they make things I need. We both benefit. It doesn't make sense to treat them badly, even when they occasionally make errors -- because if anyone is replaceable in this partnership, it's me, the customer.

Apparently, according to the latest psychological research, if you give a review (of anything -- a book, movie, whatever), people will rate you as more intelligent if you are negative and critical. And they will rate you as warmer and more personable, if you are positive and encouraging. The reverse is also true. When you ask people to write a review that will make people think they are more intelligent, they will tend to write a negative/critical review. Same with the other. So I'm thinking that people who are, for whatever reason, feeling a bit insecure about their intellect (maybe their boss called them stupid or something), they may be more inclined to be negative and critical that day. Of course, if the person being criticized then feels insecure, they may do the same. And we end up with a tidal wave of negativity, making everyone feel stupid (because everyone else looks smarter) -- and very unhappy -- while desperately trying to prove that they're neither stupid nor unhappy by making critical and negative comments.

Did I just describe the internet? :D

As for mental illnesses -- lots of different flavors. But since it's estimated that, at any given time, 1 in 10 people is suffering from something serious enough that it that should probably treated, (and 1 in 3 will suffer such an illness in their lifetimes, not counting age related dementias which will also affect a large number of us eventually) no point in being discriminatory at all. I think the best you can do is recognize that, with just a few exceptions, people almost always prefer to do the good, nice, or right thing, but sometimes find it too challenging -- so don't sweat the small stuff, like someone's random insult or their tone when disagreeing. Worry about their threats of violence or their doxing or their damaging criminal behavior. Doesn't mean you have to like a person who behaves like a jerk. But no point in getting your blood pressure up over it. Easier said that done, of course. But it's how I try to live these days. (And there are some very good medications that help with that -- if a person should need them, and if they are lucky enough to find one that works. :D)

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

And ssgbryan, some of your criticisms are valid. But you're beating your head against the wrong wall.

Here's my unasked for advice: Click the icon next to your sitemail icon that tells you how to become a vendor at Renderosity. Read the list of CURRENT requirements for Poser ready products. If you think that something needs to be added to this, take it up with Renderosity's admins. They're the ones who can make the changes you desire, IF they decide they are needed. If they decide that they're not needed, then please accept that you're just out of luck because obviously there aren't enough other customers with your peculiar needs or desires.

Wanting Poser 9 conventions for Poser 9 products is "peculiar"?

Ok...........

This kind of thinking is precisely why content today isn't any better than it was a decade ago. And why a lot of people here  would be content with Poser Debut.

If everyone kept their mouths shut, as you advise, we would never get better products.  How long did it take to get vendors to adjust Gamma after SM made their changes to Poser?  We are still at it 4 years later.  Vendors only change if they are pushed.  And I am pushing for better products, not endless variations of the same stuff I already have.

As far as the vendors feelings - I got it.  They are as fragile as a soccer player in the penalty box.

The problem is not that vendors need to be pushed, but customers who are quite happy using older versions of Poser. They limit the overall progression and compatibility of products. Most vendors cannot afford to alienate the older users, who are still the majority and who still bring in the most sales. Also, most customers are happy with the "level" and type of content. If they weren't, they wouldn't buy, and vendors wouldn't make them.

My Renderosity Store

If you mean to indicate that most are on Poser 6, 7, etc. I don't feel that's remotely true. Feel, is the key.  I don't really know and it's hard to determine without a large sample size that isn't site specific - because dynamics do change per site.  My best guess is that most are using Poser 9 or higher.  That's also considering you can get one version back, even Pro 2012 for pennies, comparatively to the full price of PP 2014, throughout the year and surprisingly often.

.

Moriador,

I agree with part of what you wrote, but one thing stands a bit off to one side - yes, vendors are humans with feelings, but no, it does not mean the fact of their being human should make them exempt from criticism. 

When you sell something, you are trading your skill (and the results thereof) for money. In any commercial transaction, this gives the buyer the right to criticize the results... and the worse the result, the more right to criticize the buyer has. I agree that sometimes that criticism can be misplaced, but oftentimes it is very apropos if it forces the vendor to stop and reconsider the item being sold. To be honest though, emotions should have nothing to do with it from the vendor's POV. Some folks will love what you sell, some will hate it, and some will go ballistic on you if one of your products doesn't meet expectations.

Your example, I get it. Dude didn't mislead anyone, so no foul (and to be honest, scaling is drop-easy with my workflow). OTOH, $40/hr is less than what I get paid (by quite a bit), so if it wastes my time* too much, I am going to avoid it.

• Okay, maybe I should define that... wasting my time means having to do something that gets between me and what I really want to do with the item I just bought. If I have to spend time over and over again fixing something that shouldn't be broken? It's going to affect my opinion of the product, and by extension the maker of it, and I am more willing to cast it aside than I would an item that I built myself.

As those who know me already know, when it comes to actual products that are shoddy or otherwise fell well short of the sales description? Get a condom for your heart little merchie, because your feelings will get fucked. It ain't personal, mind you - just that it's all business when my money is involved. I am perfectly understanding of errors on my part (let's say that I didn't fully RTFM) or due to actual technical issues (oh, it's an .exe file on my Mac and I missed the "Windows Only" bit...) - you'll never hear a peep from me in such cases, and I'll eat the cost without complaint. On the other hand, I will have no mercy when it comes to incompetence, misrepresentation, or shoddy workmanship. I will clarify and confirm that it isn't my fault first, but you'd better pray that your product with up to snuff. Same as in real life, really - I get paid a decent wage because I provide expertise and work that is professional - if I provide less than that, I don't expect any sort of kindness or understanding from my employer, so why should you expect kindness or understanding from me when you fail to meet basic standards in your product?

Mind you, I'm a fairly handy mesh-maker nowadays, but I will not sell a single product. Why? Because I know that what I make won't be up to standards that I set for others, so I basically give it away for free. Yeah, I'm a picky SOB. Welcome to commerce.

Zev0, 

Regarding: "The problem is not that vendors need to be pushed, but customers who are quite happy using older versions of Poser. They limit the overall progression and compatibility of products. Most vendors cannot afford to alienate the older users, who are still the majority and who still bring in the most sales. Also, most customers are happy with the "level" and type of content. If they weren't, they wouldn't buy, and vendors wouldn't make them."

This is a question that has plagued developers from time immemorial - do you force progress, or make what sells? It's a balancing act. If you don't want to support older versions of an app... don't. If you don't want to support D|S (or Poser)... don't. Make the risk/benefit analysis with whatever information you can find or find out, then make the decision from that. Maybe split the baby and make two versions (one supports A, the other only supports B), and see what sells better, using that info to guide your decisions later on. 

Well, Penguinisto, my point is simply that it isn't really "commerce", as you're used to thinking about it. It's more on the level of a garage sale. And you don't go to a garage sale and denounce the seller because the things for sale don't come in their original packaging or don't have valid manufacturers' warranties still in place.

Some vendors make enough money for it to be their "job". Unsurprisingly, you find that they approach the activity with the level of professionalism that you demand. But others, and I expect it's overwhelmingly most, don't even come close to that level of income. For them, it's still a hobby. There's money involved, but there's also money involved in a late night poker game or a sports pool. Yet you don't expect your poker buddies to operate their table like a casino.

Simple fact is that most vendors are hobbyists selling to other hobbyists, and that's why the prices are hobby level prices. That industry professionals can come into this market and enjoy these ridiculous prices is quite a boost. But if you start making industry professional demands on people who are not earning industry professional salaries, you're just demonstrating that you've swallowed the corporate mindset of worker exploitation so fully that you've lost your compassion (and your reason).

I'd rather be broke than lose my empathy. But that's just me.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Edit: I expect a great many vendors fall somewhere between the two extremes I described. They accept the low income (perhaps with gritted teeth), but still work hard to create products with perfectly reasonable quality standards. I don't mean, with my garage sale metaphor, to imply that the products are shoddy or substandard, since they are almost always quite the opposite. The packaging isn't always perfect. But me, I don't care about that. 

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Well, Penguinisto, my point is simply that it isn't really "commerce", as you're used to thinking about it. It's more on the level of a garage sale. And you don't go to a garage sale and denounce the seller because the things for sale don't come in their original packaging or don't have valid manufacturers' warranties still in place.

Some vendors make enough money for it to be their "job". Unsurprisingly, you find that they approach the activity with the level of professionalism that you demand. But others, and I expect it's overwhelmingly most, don't even come close to that level of income. For them, it's still a hobby. There's money involved, but there's also money involved in a late night poker game or a sports pool. Yet you don't expect your poker buddies to operate their table like a casino.

Simple fact is that most vendors are hobbyists selling to other hobbyists, and that's why the prices are hobby level prices. That industry professionals can come into this market and enjoy these ridiculous prices is quite a boost. But if you start making industry professional demands on people who are not earning industry professional salaries, you're just demonstrating that you've swallowed the corporate mindset so fully that you've lost your compassion.

I'd rather be broke than lose my empathy. But that's just me.

Edit: I'm with you on the misrepresentation. No one likes to be deceived, at any level of professionalism -- from kids trading pokemon cards all the way to Wall Street (though, not, apparently including Wall Street). That's just common courtesy between humans.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Remember there are two licenses in the MP here: Standard use and Extended use. 

Extended use license costs more, but you have more freedom with what ways you're allowed to use the content. 

Some vendors offer both while others only offer one or the other. 

In response to the OP:

The dissatisfaction you have with the products available and their perceived quality can only be rectified by creating your own.

When I first got Poser, it took me a week to decide that I was never going to be satisfied with what was available for it. (Poser 6, IIRC) After taking a look at the meshes, materials, textures, morphs, deformers, etc... It became overwhelmingly obvious to me that, instead of spending hours trying to kludge things together from different suppliers and artists who had differing standards of quality, I would have to create my own content. So, I learned how to do it.

I admit that it's no simple thing to learn a new skillset. But, if one is properly motivated, it is not a chore. There is absolutely no product out there that is ever going to be "exactly" what you want. Everything you buy is just going to be "good enough." Even the products that you love will eventually show some sort of deficiency or may reveal their lacking of a feature you'd like. The solution doesn't involve a judgement that insists the product is "bad." (Though, there are plenty of products being sold that aren't "good.") The solution is that you have to either modify the product, yourself, or get someone else to do it for you. It's usually faster to do it yourself, even if you have to learn something new in order to achieve that.

On Poser compatible human figures: There isn't one Poser compatible character figure that I am aware of that is "photorealistic."(Resembling the physiology and proportions of a true human being.) Poser was never meant to be a photorealistic application nor were its figures intended to be photorealistic. If one want's photorealism, one can come close to achieving that through a bit of hard work. But, without very heavy editing, true photorealism for figures isn't achievable. Even with everything short of creating your own figures and rigging, one can't achieve true photorealism. (And, let's not even get into "scale" issues.) Major Hollywood studios have a difficult job of even approaching that, so it's no surprise that mom&pops trying to sell interesting Poser/DS content can't manage it, either.

As artists strive to push the limits of Poser and DAZ3D, the work becomes more difficult. That's not due to the limitations of "3D Art." That is due to the limitations of the tools being used. I don't buy much of anything anymore. (I do buy hair, occasionally, just for something new to fiddle with. Oh, and python scripts, since I don't "Python.") The reason I don't buy much is because I choose to create what I want.

But, I do look to see what new products are being offered. As far as I am concerned, the only recent innovations have been Reality 3's Luxrender exporter for Poser, Weight Mapping, and Indirect Lighting. These aren't "innovative" 3D advancements. But, they are for the Poser community, so I'm glad to see them. However, many other products offered by many vendors are simply "variations on a theme." Why is that? The reason is that they are all limited to the toolsets they are meant to be used with.

Given that is the case, what is an artist to do when they are confronted with limitations in their toolset? You know the answer - Get different tools and acquire the skill to use them to obtain the goal that you seek.

There is no reason why anyone can't learn to model, texture, write scripts, develop custom materials, all that jazz... A seasoned Poser user will understand a great many things about the technical issues of 3D Art. They can explore that knowledge further by acquiring toolsets that give them greater access and capability in 3D Art. I honestly do not understand why very long-time users of Poser/DS have spent thousands of dollars on third-party content and have not once also delved into actual 3D object creation. I just don't get it. Almost every single common problem I have seen mentioned by users when someone complains about current product quality/availability or satisfaction can be solved if they just decide, for themselves, that they're going to solve it by learning a new skill.

The only reason that I like Poser is because it introduced me to creating 3D objects and it's fairly easy to use, rigging and posing-wise. As far as the content that people sell for it, I'm not impressed unless it truly does something new or really delves into a new capability presented by the base software. I have yet to see any claims of "innovation" in recent offerings actually be "true." It's just variations on a theme and, if that is all it is, I can do that, myself.

So, my advice is this: Go grab an easy to use modeller like Milkshape or Hexagon (Even if it is sometimes buggy and hates certain video cards.) Go grab a free graphics program, like GIMP, or pay for Photoshop. Grab some other freebies, like UVMapper and Morph Manager (I still use it, occasionally) and grab some tools, like MorCloth, Autogroup Manager and QuickConform, and have a field-day creating exactly the sort of things that you really want for your 3D Art. Later, when you have tired of any limitations you feel that are in Poser/DS, move on to bigger and better 3D rendering packages. But, once you learn the necessary skills in creating your own content, Poser/DS can keep you happy for quite awhile.

 The reason I have a vastly paid for runtime is because I doubt I could gain the skill to build to the quality I can buy and if I could I doubt I have the years left.  I enjoy building scenes and rendering, playing with lights and textures and I my time of life I want fun not boring.

 It has been the same with my cars for years, I can service them but I no longer like getting cold and dirty doing so.  I would rather have someone pay me to build a computer, a job I enjoy and can do in the warm.  What I make can then be spent on someone else getting cold and dirty servicing my car just a question of horses for courses. 

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Likewise. I have tried modelling, and I find it extremely frustrating. The fact that all the tutorials are in video format, rather than text and images, is also a pain. I read at least 3 times the speed that most videos play, so much of the time, I'm sitting there twiddling my thumbs thinking, "Get ON with it, will ya!" Moreover, text is keyword searchable. I hate watching a 15 minute video (with some narrator blabbing on and on about all the stuff he isn't going to cover until the next video, etc) and realizing that it does not tell me what I need to know at all. With text and images, I can ascertain if the tutorial is what I'm looking for in a matter of seconds. And people tend not to be so bloody long winded when they write a tutorial. So, bleh. (Must be hell to be deaf and trying to learn CGI).

Kitbashing, on the other hand, is a whole lot of fun. So, while I don't model, I will happy tear other people's models into pieces, re-texture them, morph them, scale them, cut out polys, and reassemble them to be wholly different, and I can do all that within Poser. It's the process of ADDING polys -- using some other software -- that I haven't grasped. But after two hours trying to make a wooden beam out of a cube, I gave up and loaded a Poser primitive. Why reinvent the wheel? If someone has made a very beautiful Corinthian column, I could buy it for $5 or spend a year figuring out how to make it myself. I don't know about you, but I think that's pretty low compensation for doing something I really don't enjoy at all. :D

However, I DO agree that Poser users tend not even learn even half of what Poser can do, nevermind a modelling app. Just learning more about Poser opens whole new worlds, so that you can stretch the content you DO buy much, much further.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I'm an enthusiast and probably to the point that its unhealthy and I figure out new things and things I've missed, ALL the time. :)

.

"Kitbashing, on the other hand, is a whole lot of fun. So, while I don't model, I will happy tear other people's models into pieces, re-texture them, morph them, scale them, cut out polys, and reassemble them to be wholly different, and I can do all that within Poser."

 

I agree and that is another reason for buying content.  Some fourteen years ago when I started with Poser I quickly discovered there was a lot to learn in Poser and today I still feel I have only scratched the surface.  While I do use Paint Shop Pro to build some images and some post work and Silo to adapt other people models I can go a month or more without opening either program.  Poser on the other hand I use practically daily and I am always trying new things.  I will never use Poser to its full potential but it seems learning one complex program as best you can seems better than spreading time over a lot of other programs.

I now feel at home in the material room rather then totally lost and overwhelmed, very few of my renders are completed with out some material work, even if it is using a purchased texture on another vendors item.  I also understand a lot better how lights change the way materials look when rendered. One character I use I have built over the years has materials that would have appeared magic to me when I first started and had to be adapted when SSS came along.   A lot of the items are heavily based on materials that BB has created and shared.  The more I play with Poser the better I get and I am having fun on the way and I would rather spend the time I have free somewhere along the Poser learning curve than at the start of a curve with another program.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

In general reply to hornet3D, moriador, and Netherworks,. (Sorry, the forum doesn't seem to have a way to make multi-quoting easy...)

There's a difference between pursuing "Poser" 3D Art and general 3D art. I'm not saying Poser art isn't that, but there's a different mindset between Poser enthusiasts and general 3D artists.

Imagine that you love to collect and to arrange paper dolls. You have a professional supplier for paper doll products, so you're generally happy. But, after awhile, you run out of interesting paper doll gear. You like to pose and arrange your paper dolls and take photos of them, adjusting the lights and camera settings as necessary. (Think "Cottingly Fairies." Google if necessary.)

After awhile, you start wondering if you can make your own paper doll accessories or even whole doll figures. So, you buy some scissors, an exacto-knife or three, some good quality paper and then sit down to watch some tutorials or go through a tutorial pdf on "How tos." Maybe you couldn't afford these materials or maybe you found that you didn't have the skills or the time or patience to learn all the details you think you'd need to know in order to create your own paper dolls and accessories. So, you stop trying and try to find satisfaction in "what you have" instead of "what you want."

There is nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, it's a mainstay of human commerce. :) Everyone practices this need vs cost dynamic. I buy a car because I can't build one and I'm darn sure that, if I could, no State would be foolish enough to license it!

But, if I'm not satisfied with the cars or paper dolls that are available, what do I do? I have found that I can't create them and am not satisfied with what it is available. There are three options available to me: I pay someone else to create them, which will cost a heck of a lot of money. I lobby for creators to produce what I believe I want (which many are doing here) or I learn to find satisfaction with what I have by trying new things, within the capability of tools and skillsets that I currently possess.

An option that is not logical is to assume that "what I have" is somehow worthless to me or "broken" simply because I have reached the full capacity of its capabilities. Instead, I have to be proactive and I need to pursue those things that attracted me to the medium in the first place. Thinking "outside of the box" in order to continue to pursue what I like, but taking it to fresh areas, would be a good choice.

I don't render a lot. I find it more fun to construct objects and figures, texture them, mess with materials, get some idea of how they render and then move on. I might get one good render up, just to brag to myself about my work. :) But, after that, it's generally forgotten and I move on to something else. (One of these days I'm going to get around to resurrecting an old hard-drive and flood my old projects out as freebies. One day..)

But, let's take a passion for assembly and rendering "outside of the box" in order to explore where it can go. Sure, there are limitations, but if I've reached them in one area, I can't agonize over what I am not willing or an unable to affect, can I? I can, however, affect how I choose to pursue a solution with "what I have", though, right?

Composite shots are an interesting thing. Much like the "Cottingly Fairies", composite shots take 3D objects and, with a bit of kludging, camera tracking, whatevers, place them in a real-world setting. It takes nothing extra, except some suitable pics, to start doing this. Further, there are a lot of things one can do, from heaping on a lot of post-work to doing one's best to create a composite shot completely within Poser/DS, with no postwork. That is incredibly difficult to do and it's a worthy ambition for a dedicated Poser user.

Anaglyphs are another pursuit that can be realized just with the tools a Poser user already uses. Well, you'll have to go buy some paper 3D glasses to fully appreciate it, but it's "doable." And, it could prove to be a lot of fun creating actual "Three Dimensional Art" using 3D.

Stereoscopic images are another true "3D" art solution. It's an older format than colored/polarized glasses, but it's arguably easier to render. There's even a free script, somewhere around here, that sets the camera angles for you. But, even that's not too hard to do, by hand. After that, all you need is a bit of practice focusing or, if you're brave, get a good quality print of each image and build yourself a viewing box thingie.

Animation. Poser has a lot of capability in that area. If you're like me, you never once touched much of anything to do with Poser animation. But, then again, I moved outside of Poser fairly rapidly. Some people have saturated their experience of Poser without ever moving into animation and I think that's a shame. They obviously like the program, but don't use half of its capabilities. So, what's stopping someone who loves Poser, but hasn't explored animation? Only themselves.

The point is this - If you are unhappy with your experience and you feel that you have reached the limits of "what you have", have you truly examined everything that "what you have" offers? If you can't or won't expand your experience set in order to delve deeper into the genre that you appreciate so much, then you've got to push onward in exploring what you can do instead of worrying what you can't do.

I think that Poser and DS have a lot to offer their fanbase, yet. Are there issues? Yes, there most certainly are. The biggest issue is that Poser and DS are primarily designed for Poser and DS fans, not for general "3D Art" that pushes the tech boundaries that the industry has reached, today. That means that they've painted themselves into a niche corner and you, the longstanding user-base, are going to eventually get bored if they don't do something "new." In some ways, both are attempting to combat this issue, primarily through targeting game development. It's a smart move and they'll both attract some attention from some game developers who are just starting out and want some easily created content. But, it will never reach the deeper depths of "game development content" because it's just not designed for that. Instead, it will hold a small portion of the market or a very unique group that doesn't want to go any further than necessary in order to scratch their itch.

Go out there and scratch your itch with "what you have." If you want more than that, there are plenty of avenues you can pursue. But, if you do not wish to pursue those avenues, you simply have to "Make Do." There isn't any other logical option available.

Note: Truly stepping past Poser/DS into "3D" art and constructing one's own content can be intimidating. But, that intimidation will be short-lived, the more experience you have. For myself, and it's only anecdotal, I find "Photoshop" more intimidating that just about any 3D package I've ever tried to use. (With the exception of Blender. I still have nightmares...) I find it incredibly difficult to craft a decent texture. At least, not one up to my standards. But, I can model anything, so I "make do" with kludging textures together in Photoshop or by "cheating" using nothing but procedurals. I "make do" and my dissatisfaction with textures has nothing to do with the quality of any program nor any other solutions that are available to me. I am content with that. When I am no longer content, I will push myself to learn how to create good textures. Maybe I'll even create a "great one" or two? I don't look forward to the day when I must start Photoshop tutorials... But, come it will.

Morkonan, I agree with your basic premise absolutely. If you can't find what you need because no one else is making it, you really do only have two choices. :) And complaining that on one will make what you want isn't really a realistic avenue for satisfaction. True, very very true.

But what we each enjoy is very different.

I LOVE setting up scenes and rendering. That's why I have Poser and not a modelling app. Photography is one of my primary hobbies as well and its' where I started, so 2D image manipulation is second nature to me, and I could use Photoshop in my sleep. (I even helped a friend use GIMP -- though I didn't have a copy at the time -- because just by assuming that the functions would be similarly named, I could guide him through how to do most of the basic things). 

So for me, the 2d image output is the ultimate goal I strive for, and the 3d assets are just a way to get to that goal.

You're the complete opposite. So what you find enjoyable is precisely what I find horrifying and vice versa. LOL.

Again, I agree completely that it's silly to limit yourself once you reach a wall.

But having discovered recently the things that just POSER itself can do to manipulate content I already own -- I've moved that wall a lot further away for now. :)

Edit: I also think you've make a very interesting observation about the seemingly self-limiting nature of this particular market niche. But that's worthy of a thread all to itself. :)

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

There's a 4th option - make it yourself.  That's not "oh pfft! Go make it yourself!".  That is instead saying, you can learn and delight in creating new models if you have the temperament, creativity and drive to do so.  In a way, Poser and DS and the like are shells or players that require you to stick something in them.  There are certainly things to explore that are beyond the program if you are feeling limited.

You could play with material nodes and create/discover all kinds new things.  Or play with different render engines via 3rd parties.

You could could up with little python tools and snippets that make Poser more interesting and they're certainly some creative fun in doing that.

Another thing to muse over:  If I render the models I have made and rigged, I do think it's an artistic endeavor and certainly has some additional depth to it.  Though I also have no problem with what folks might consider compositional art.  Load things, compose, pose, etc. click Render and for some it's still thrilling and fun.  And clearly people all render to different degrees, some are very talented and have grasp of placement, evoking emotion (isn't that art?), telling a story with a single image, setting up lighting and using it effectively and so on.

.

@Netherworks, that was Morkonan's original suggestion.

But some people -- and I'm one of them -- really just don't like using the mouse to manipulate objects with any real precision. In Poser, I prefer to work with the number pad. I have yet to hear of a modelling app that allows you to place polys and edgeloops, etc, by using the number pad. (Even if one did, it would be hopelessly slow). As a result, all I'm ever, ever going to do with a modelling app is swear loudly at it -- because for me, a mouse is not a precision tool. And trying to use it as one is like trying to sculpt with a bath sized bar of soap. While I do use a stylus for 2d work, I find them very poor tools for making menu selections. And I'll be damned if I'm going to memorize 739 different shortcuts.

I tried modelling. I absolutely hated it. So I am not gonna make my own stuff. If that puts me in the category of people whose renders lack your "additional depth", oh well. Good thing I don't need to consider myself "an artist" to get enjoyment out of Poser. :D

I do think it's odd that the Poser forum, of all places, seems to be made up primarily of people who model and don't care to render. LOL You'd think they'd be more comfortable in, I dunno, a modelling forum? ;)

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

 I have fun with CGI & I have fun playing with all the App's.

I swear that's the point of Art & life. 

If another is not happy with my Art.

I don't care ,Why would I care. 

If there not happy with my Art, then they can go make there own Art. 

or set a round and do nothing more then complain.

It doesn't matter to me. but there not spoiling my fun.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Maybe what we like doing is also linked, in some part, to our background.  I too came to 3D art from photography, a hobby that has stayed with me for over 40 years and I can still follow with the limitations old age places on my body.  This means that my interest is in the 2D image, in fact 3D is only really an extension to photography in many ways.  My other interest is Sc-Fi and again this interest goes way back.  3D allows me to 'photograph' my visions of the future or to try an portray an emotion without the hiring of a model.  To this degree the hobbies complement each other.

As to criticism well even if it is justified it can be done with dignity and not thinking the seller is an idiot or just on the make is a good starting point.  I remember working in a camera shop where a customer brought back a zoom lens where the zoom ring was far from smooth.  The customer was abusive from the start both about me as a sales person and the equipment we sold.  After he had calmed down I took the lens from him and tried it, he was right.  I did not have another lens of the same type in stock but offered the customer and upgrade free of charge.  Some what surprised the customer accepted and I even threw in a lens cleaning kit because of the trouble the faulty lens had caused the customer, something I would have done anyway.  He was full of praise when he left but how much better it would have been if he had started politely and only resorted to anger if the situation really warranted it.  Not only would it have been better for me and the other customers in the shop but it would have had less effect on the complaining customer's blood pressure as well.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Maybe what we like doing is also linked, in some part, to our background.  I too came to 3D art from photography, a hobby that has stayed with me for over 40 years and I can still follow with the limitations old age places on my body.  This means that my interest is in the 2D image, in fact 3D is only really an extension to photography in many ways.  My other interest is Sc-Fi and again this interest goes way back.  3D allows me to 'photograph' my visions of the future or to try an portray an emotion without the hiring of a model.  To this degree the hobbies complement each other.

As to criticism well even if it is justified it can be done with dignity and not thinking the seller is an idiot or just on the make is a good starting point.  I remember working in a camera shop where a customer brought back a zoom lens where the zoom ring was far from smooth.  The customer was abusive from the start both about me as a sales person and the equipment we sold.  After he had calmed down I took the lens from him and tried it, he was right.  I did not have another lens of the same type in stock but offered the customer and upgrade free of charge.  Some what surprised the customer accepted and I even threw in a lens cleaning kit because of the trouble the faulty lens had caused the customer, something I would have done anyway.  He was full of praise when he left but how much better it would have been if he had started politely and only resorted to anger if the situation really warranted it.  Not only would it have been better for me and the other customers in the shop but it would have had less effect on the complaining customer's blood pressure as well.

Yes. Yes. Yes. It's as well to remember this as the customer. During the 3 months I worked for AT&T as a customer service rep (horrible job!), I learned that even brand new reps had up to $600 per day in discretionary "funds" that they could use to reduce someone's phone bill or to eliminate false charges -- without having to resort to asking for a manager.

The people who were nice and polite got the benefit of this. During training we would listen in on a seasoned partner's calls. One I will never forget was from a lady who was having trouble paying her bill. I forget why exactly she was troubled -- but it's a very common occurrence. And she was wondering if it was possible for her to pay for half the bill and still keep using her phone. She was truly lovely on the phone, and as a result, the rep came back and said, "Ma'am, you don't have to worry about that bill. It's taken care of." He just wiped over $500 completely clean. Because he could, and because it was customers like her who made the job bearable. Her response was "Praise Jesus! I can't believe you did this!" followed by a lot of gracious expressions of gratitude. 

[He logged it as a customer who signed up for the wrong "plan" and mistakenly used too many minutes, which was one of the allowable reasons to forgive legitimate charges.]

The jerks -- if they didn't experience a sudden unexplained disconnection from the rep centre -- were the ones who ended up being transferred repeatedly.  And their jerky behavior was noted on their account.

It's been pretty much the same way in every customer service job I've had. Whenever you have a legitimate problem that needs to be solved, if you're nicer than the usual customer (which isn't hard, believe me), the clerk will often try their best to give you way more than you asked for. And if you're a DB -- well, unless hornet3d serves you, you'll get the minimum that will make you leave without breaking things.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

 I have just tried to install Reality and keep getting this.

 [2014-12-19 08:41:54 Error: 14] Static loading of filter 'blackmanharris' failed.

[2014-12-19 08:41:54 Severe error: 14] Unable to create scene due to missing plug-ins

Any clues to what is wrong??

Thanks

Duncan  

I think you posted this to the wrong thread, Duncan.  ;)

There is an Official Reality Forum over at RDNA..

http://forum.runtimedna.com/forumdisplay.php?302-The-Official-Reality-for-Poser-Forum

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home