After months of dodging this bullet when it came up on my screen and telling me that the Upgrade was free (I would click "remind me later" because there was no other option), the damned thing downloaded into my machine in the background. I found it out when two nights ago I got a screen that wanted to INSTALL the thing!!!! I've hit the "remind me later" twice now and have scrambled to backup everything in my hard drive to a 2 terabyte external drive I bought last year. I've also made a backup of my bookmarks in Firefox. I need to hear from anyone who has had this happen to them or who has gone through the upgrade experience. I need INFO!

Thank you in advance!

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

This happened to my wife yesterday.

She called me into the kitchen (where he desk is) and said she couldn't close the upgrade windows.

I went in figuring that I could force it to close.

Not such luck, the only thing on the computer that would work was the upgrade button.

Everything else was greyed out, even shutting the computer down wouldn't get rid of it, it just booted back up to the same screen.

I went ahead and upgraded, (it's a long process) it's all up and running fine.

No real problems for her, it did not delete any of her files or software.

All of her setting, bookmarks etc, seem to be OK.

I upgraded earlier, and then reverted to Windows 8, because it messed up my sound.

A lot of other people had the same kind of thing.

I'm running Windows 10 now, so I haven't had Windows 8 running but I'm afraid they will do the same thing to me, and force my to upgrade.

I guess I'll just stick with Windows 10, I like it a lot.

Mike

If you shoot a mime, do you need a silencer?

How long a process? What was involved? Could you explain?

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

I'd say it took about an hour on her laptop.

When I did it it only took about half that on my PC.

There isn't really anything involved, you just click Upgrade or whatever the button says and after that it's all automatic.

The computer will reboot a couple of times and eventually it will get back to the desktop in Windows 8.1.

There were times when the screen stayed black for a while but eventually it continued on.

It incorporates some of the stuff that I see in Windows 10 like a Start Button, and right clicking on the Start Button will give you links to a lot of common places like Control Panel, Device Manager etc.

I pretty much started the process and walked away.

For much of it you will see a counter that tells you what percentage of the process is done.

If you have backup imaging software and it's not too late, I'd make a backup image just in case but I think that people aren't having any problems as far as I've heard.

Mike

If you shoot a mime, do you need a silencer?

I had a similar experience Mike, all plain sailing and no data loss. It's more of an upgrade than a full install as I recall.

I was happy when it was done :) I got the start button back :)

John

Fugazi (without the aid of a safety net)

https://www.facebook.com/Fugazi3D

this IS just from 8 to 8.1 ???

while I'm not a lover of 7 my next step is mint ;-) [its on offer rofl]

Yes it's just from 8 to 8.1 that they are forcing.

I had real reasons for not doing the upgrade, when I did my sound was distorted and I couldn't fix it, so I went back to 8.

Windows 10 is only months away now and it really is an improvement over 8.

I've been using it for a week now and I really like it.

Mike

If you shoot a mime, do you need a silencer?

Yep, got forced into it. The process just finished. Everything seems okay so far. I must say tho that I am NOT happy that it was crammed down my throat.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

I can't say that upgrade from 8 to 8.1 is a bad thing but, of course, noone want it to be forced upon him/her.
That's just a bad policy from Microsoft.

I had an awful experience with graphic card drivers when migrating from Windows 7 to Windows 8. I had a ATI with dual chips which wouldn't work but eventually I found some drivers that matched it. (I uses a Nvidia graphic card now)

Windows 8.1 works fine for me now (feels more stable and uses RAM better than Windows 7, I think)

@MikeMoss
About Windows 10 ...
Any difficulties with drivers?
I use software like Poser, Adobe (Photoshop, Illustrator, AF or Indesign), Lightwave, ZBrush and Maya. Do you have any experience with those in Windows 10?
Would you recommend an update to windows 10?
(Using a Asus ROG laptop with i7, GTX 780, 16GB RAM and 256 SSD+750 SATA)

I've had no problems with Windows 10, all my hardware and software run fine.

In addition to Poser, I have Photoshop Elements, (I don't think it will let me install my CS3 version twice, but I'm going to try one of these days) Premiere Elements 12, Text Aloud, a bunch of games like The Secret World, Age of Conan, The Elder Scrolls Online, Tomb Raider, Skyrim, Guild Wars 2, I even have the old Windows 7 games running.

I haven't had problems with anything I've tested.

I haven't installed Indesign or Illustrator because from past experience I think that Adobe will block them unless I remove them from Windows 8, but I'm sure that they will run fine.

I think anything that will run in 8 will run in 10.

I will definitely upgrade when it goes online next spring.

I haven't booted back into Windows 8 since I installed 10.

Mike

If you shoot a mime, do you need a silencer?

Thanks!
I'll installing it at home and see how it works.

I'd guess it can't be any worse than windows 8.1 and windows 8.1 I've learned to like ;)

After the upgrade I have a tiny display problem in Poser. Two versions of BB's Cornea shaders display a completely white in Preview mode. The image renders just fine. It's just in the display of the Preview mode. Don't know how to fix it. Oh, well. Also had to reinstall my Paintshop 8 program.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

I did have to update my video drivers to the latest ones from Nvidia to get my 3D Stereo working in Windows 10, it didn't work with the default drivers.

Could your problem have to do with something like that?

You could try and see if there is an update for you video card.

Mike

If you shoot a mime, do you need a silencer?

In the area of UI, 8.1 is a huge improvement over 8. GIves back the start menu, doesn't load with kiddyland of sites I never use covering the whole screen. NO idea what it did to the touch screen, I don't use that, junk by any other name is trash.

Long download, but gives the option to dump it all out, takes just as long to get rid of it. Haven't had any problems, but the only thing I have it in is a laptop, which before 8.1 I hated. Usable now. Don't use it much, that won't change.

And very poor judgement by microsoft to ram it to us, I agree. Another push to go entirely Linux.

Doric.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

I can't help but laugh at people every time I read stuff like this, I mean, what did you expect?

Did you expect things to be done for your sake when you use commercial OS's?

There are basically two kinds of people:

Those who use Smartphones and Commercial OS's
Those who understand why you absolutely should avoid them.

The fact is that every one of you being manipulated, have no one else to blame but yourselves. If you don't like being manipulated, then don't spend money on their products, allowing them to get even bigger, and to manipulative you even further.

Move to a GNU/Linux system (Debian is my personal favourite). There's no excuse these days for not installing and using this OS. If you're worried about Windows programs not rinning, just use WINE and you can run Windows programs inside a window in GNU/Linux just like it's on Windows. Just be sure to avoid Ubuntu, AKA the biggest disgrace ever in the history of GNU/Linux distributions. Ubuntu is "officially" shunned and should be avoided no matter what people tell you. Debian, on the other hand, is highly recommended.

People who use commercial OS's either have no interest in the well being of their own data, rights, and privacy, or they simply do not understand the implications of using those OS's. Best advice I can give here, is learn, because I'm guessing you'll learn the hard way if you don't. At least Doric has the right idea, and as they say, better late than never.

It's your hardware, and it's up to you what you do with it, not Apple or Microsoft. Common sense should tell anyone that it's time to put a finger up to them and install a GNU/Linux OS instead, time to look after your own interests, not theirs. That's the only way you'll take control of your computer and your life again.

It's either that, or they will continue to control your life for you.

Choose

I'm still on windows 7 and will stay there for now. It's being called the new XP due to its popularity. I like it and it works just fine with all my software. (I used XP for over 10 years and never had problems with it). I turned off all updates and I don't use IE, haven't in years and haven't upgraded it since whatever version came with win7. Are they just giving away 8.1 now or something? Not sure what is going on here. I have had no upgrades forced on me.

No intention of upgrading to 10 either. I don't use a touch screen (other than my android phone), and have no intention to any time soon unless I miraculously discover an extra $2200 in my bank account one day and am able to buy a Cintiq.

I've considered moving to Linux but I don't have time or patience to learn a new OS right now, and regardless of what folks say, Linux requires more computer saviness than the average PC/Mac user has time or patience for. I might put it on an old off-line spare machine to learn it at my own pace in my free time. But free time is very few and far between at the moment.

Quote - Are they just giving away 8.1 now or something? Not sure what is going on here. I have had no upgrades forced on me.

The only reason I had even 8 was the crawling to microsoft by the computer manufacturers, you buy a new one and it's already installed unless you have a box custom built. win 8 was such a kludge ms either had to do something or in my opinion, it could have been the end for them as far as OS goes. but the first time win 8 goes on line, forget it, just download the fix, it's the only way to get past their software. It will give the option to install or not, either way, figure on an hour before you can use the thing. If you're running 8, it may be worth the time, or may not depending on your personal habits.

Doric.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

Gotcha. My PC is custom built. I haven't bought a pre-built machine in years. And newegg is still selling Win7. I should probably snag another copy or two before it's no longer available.

Don't buy copies of Windows 7 now.

If you liked 7 you will like 10, it feels just like using 7 but with some improvements.

Lots of things that computer geeks like to get to like Disk Manager, and tech stuff like that are only 2 clicks away from the desktop now.

You never have to see a Metro screen, and it runs really fast.

I'm really happy with it, I hated 8 but this is like breath of fresh air. LOL

Mike

If you shoot a mime, do you need a silencer?

Quote - Gotcha. My PC is custom built. I haven't bought a pre-built machine in years. And newegg is still selling Win7. I should probably snag another copy or two before it's no longer available.

This box, which has no other function than on line, is a walmart POS. My others, the ones I actually use, custom, although the vendor I use has few OS options. Laptop, oh well. I probably could have one built, but not for what it would cost me. @MikeMoss, I don't upgrade the OS, what's installed when I get it is what's in it when it gives up the smoke. I hated going from xp to w7, hated w7, period. All I'll say for it is it's finally somewhat stable, a far cry from when I got it. I don't see myself getting 10, my computers will probably outlast me. Everytime I've upgraded, which I say with my tongue in cheek, some of my older software won't run. Not worth it.

Doric.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

I can understand why MS is forcing the 8.1 upgrade. Supporting 2 operating systems versus supporting one and moving a team to Windows 10 makes sense.

I agree with Mike, Windows 10 is a drastic improvement over 8 or 8.1. I have some older legacy programs that don't work right in 8 or 8.1, and they work fine in 10.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

@David

"I can understand why MS is forcing the 8.1 upgrade. Supporting 2 operating systems versus supporting one and moving a team to Windows 10 makes sense."

Don't want to sound rude, you know that but seriously, Microsoft must truly adore that easy going attitude of yours, you speak like the model, perfectly gullible customer. Since when has it been ok for a company to FORCE anything on users of it's products?

You bought it in the state in which it was when you bought it, and it should be up to you what you allow regards updates. There is indeed a reason you were "forced" to upgrade and it has nothing to do with what you seem to think it does. You really need to start doing some research and you'll discover real reason they want that crap on your system enough to force it upon you. Avoid websites that thrive on advertising and start reading the ones that speak the facts (and prepare to be shocked).

I'm glad that heap of corporate malware isn't intalled on my machine!

@Shane
Best way to learn it is to purchase this and this:

You get a dedicated computer for messing around with, but that specific book is superb in getting even an absolute noob started with the OS. It's actually easier to locate and install/remove software on Debian than it is on Windows now (seriously). That book shows you how to use Raspbian (a version of Debian ready made for that computer) - ready to boot from the SD card you insert into it.

Dead easy!

Debian has a package manger, it's just like having a built-in app-store. All you do is search for the type software you want, choose it from the list of software packages that show up, and click install. That's it, you really cannot get easer than that, you don't even need to trawl the web to look for the software.

To remove the software you do the same thing, click a button to show the list of installed software packages, then select the one you want to remove, done!

Nothing hard about using GNU/Linux Debian or Raspbian, not nowadays, and this is easy the best way to learn to use it before you put it on your main system. Anyone can use it, even a child can install and remove programs now, it's honestly that easy.

Anyway, something to consider.

Quote -
@David

"I can understand why MS is forcing the 8.1 upgrade. Supporting 2 operating systems versus supporting one and moving a team to Windows 10 makes sense."

Don't want to sound rude, you know that but seriously, Microsoft must truly adore that easy going attitude of yours, you speak like the model, perfectly gullible customer. Since when has it been ok for a company to FORCE anything on users of it's products?

I should have explained it a little more.

The way they went about it was worng, I do agree with that. But at the same time there really isn't any reason to develope Windows 8 when 8.1 is the upgrade for it.

This has happened before, just in a different way. Updates for Windows 7 stopped at a certain point unless you installed the service packs. Where they went drastically wrong was not making 8.1 a service pack That way support for 8 could have been dropped and no one would be screaming about it.

No one screamed about Windows 7 SP1 and it was a drastic change to it. You could not see much difference in the UI, but there were huge differences in the background.

The same thing can be said about any version of Windows prior, support fo non service packed installs basically stopped past security patches.

Remember the hardware issues in Windows 98 and ME? Not much different, other than this time you don't have to replace older hardware.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

It's not them offering updates I have a problem with, it's them "forcing" the update onto people when they have not chosen (or knowingly chosen) to install it, like they "own" the customer and have made it their business to make decisions on their behalf. Every single person involved in passsing that one, ought to be hung for public amusement.

Then again, I watch the Apple Keynote evey year wondering if their "innovations" could possibly make me cringe more than the previous year. Have to hand it to them, they've never failed yet This year was especially bad, and actually, way in advance of what I expected even of them!

They're another buch that ought to be hung for public amusement.

Well I didn't update because I couldn't make my sound work correctly on it.

A lot of other people with Creative Soundcads were having the same issues.

At the time no one could find a fix for it.

But I just realized that it doesn't matter anymore.

My sound works fine in Windows 10, so it I upgrade my Windows 8 install I can still do my work in Windows 10, which is the only OS I'm using anyway.

So if they force me they force me.

As to running Linux, I do run Linux Mint occasionally but it isn't that easy to run everything in it.

It's been my experience that there is a real performance hit running software in a VM.

And companies like Adobe (I'm a graphics designer) have security that really messes with anything other then a normal Windows or Apple install, even then you have to buy a different version for each one.

Anyway I really like Windows 10, and as soon as it goes live I'll backup everything on my computer, format my C: drive that has Windows 8 on it and do a clean install.

Mike

If you shoot a mime, do you need a silencer?

To be honest, Mike, to me the lack of "Adobe" on GNU/Linux is actually a bonus.

Depends on how you look at it I suppose. For me the balance has already been made, there is already enough high-end software products native to GNU/Linux that I don't actually need any Windows programs at all.

Some immediate example are these:

2D Artists - Can replace Photoshop with the new GIMP
3D Artists - Can replace 3D programs with the mighty Blender
Designers - Can replace Illustrator with the new Inkscape
Musicians - Can replace Ableton Live etc with Bitwig or Renoise

The only thing I feel is lacking, is something to replace After Effects. The good news is that Blender and GIMP can be scripted to do anything After Effects can do, as well as an infinite amount of stuff After Effects never will be able to do. At the moment, the best way to get true high-end video effects on a GNU/Linux system is to automate frame-by-frame imports/exports inside of Blender or GIMP.

It's only a matter of time until the concept is transfromed into a mind-blowing video production studio, but until then, I'm prepared to live with automated import-export frame-by-rame - it's no biggie, and is technically beneficial.

On top of all that, of course, you're using an OS where everyone is able to examine the code for any malware, and that's a good thing because it's the only way you'll ever have control over what your computer is sending out. My Debian installation sends out exactly what I let it, and absolutely nothing else.

It's my system, my installation: one where I am boss and am in complete control of it, not Apple or Microsoft.

pumeco, apparently you have never heard of Eyeon.

They make the most comprehensive video production suite on the planet, and it runs in Linux. (It is not free, which is why many Linux people probably don't know about it)

Many major films were done using it, simply because of its ease of use and massive scalability on a render farm. It is considered by many to be the best video production software ever created, and for good reason.

Check out the promo videos for it on Eyeon's site.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

Cheers David, and no, I'd never even heard of it!

Just took a quick look, and it does look awesome but I won't be buying a copy. I don't mind paying for software, just as long as I don't have to sell my highly sought-after sperm to a spermbank to pay for it!

I'd rather automate Blender and GIMP, there's nothing you can't do with that combo.
Thanks for pointing it out though, like I said, never knew about that one

The most I would pay for something like that is around £200 (£250 at a push).

It isn't cheap, that's for sure.

But it does look like it would do anything you could throw at it.

Software like that is only the first cost, after that you need the render farm as well...

We don't have the budgets like Avatar did (tons of other movies as well).... If we did, we could drop a few million on toys like that and not even break a sweat.

Chalk that up to Unobtainium, only found on Pandoria...

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

Funny thing is, I think that's precisely the type of software they'd make a real killing with if they were to price it realistically. If they were selling it for say £100-250 I'm guessing their profits would be considerably larger than selling it to a lot less people at the current price.

A few grand for a production company is a steal. I agree that it is rather on the high end for a typical home consumer, but there are other options for them that do not cost a dime.

Anyway, Microsoft seems to be sticking firm to the forced upgrade, just like I thought they would. Sure it is not the norm to force an upgrade on an operating system, but it would not be the first, per software or op system upgrade either.

One thing I would like to point out, is that Linux has had forced upgrades too. Mostly on the server side thou.

Certain versions of Ubuntu on a Sparc system were forced to upgrade, and so was anyone running Apache/php/perl on many others.

Stating that Linux does not force you to upgrade just simply, is not true in every case.

It will probably get worse as time goes on (forced update wise), on both Windows and Linux.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

This is why I warn people to avoid Ubuntu, it's like Apple and Microsoft all over again. Ubuntu are the biggest disgrace in the history of GNU/Linux distributions.

Install and use Debian - problem solved.

Debian are working closely with the FSF etc. I hear they even expect to have a totally blob-free version of Debian soon. Debian is all about giving the user absolute control with complete transparency and no hidden nasties. Ubuntu is the opposite and you should not install or use Ubuntu. Like I said, Ubuntu is "officially" shunned - and you can't get more official than that.

Use Debian, problem solved. No one ever has, and no one ever will, force me to intall an update or anything else on my computer that I don't want to. I have that control (and always will) because I use Debian.

Whatever OS you use; Connect to the Internet, and your system is an open book.

PRIVACY only lives in a dream.

On the NET?

You just gave up your privacy.

Who did that?

You.

You clicked to come onlline.

You threw away your privacy.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

By now?
My message above is at least on a couple of dozen of servers.
To STAY.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

No, Tony - that's not true for all OS's. Only the mainstream OS's.

If you're savvy enough, there are ways to completely hide from the rest of the 'net, be 100% anonymous and still interact with it to pretty much whatever degree you want. Underground networks, etc.

The 'net has some very dark roads that most people know nothing about.

But this thread is getting off topic from it's own off-topicness.

Um, Debian has had forced upgrades on the server side of things. It was for a Heartbleed hole if I remember correctly (May have been another one, it has been a while since I ran into that). Server issues are basically the only way a linux system can get a virus, and that involves infecting the repository so that a trusted update can install the virus. It does not happen very often because the servers are usually locked down tighter than Fort Knox ever was. But it has happened.

As more people migrate to Linux security fixes that force updates will probably happen to Debian PC as well. It will have to be a massive hole, that somehow was missed for it to be any issue to worry about. Or a compromised repository that requires Pc versions to be patched. The user permissions in Linux are rather tight to prevent things from going horribly wrong in the first place, but it does not always work out as planned.

Linux is far safer than Windows due to how the permissions and root access work, but that does not mean that it can't have an issue. Can't does not mean that someone wont find one. I will say that the monolithic kernel idea is one of the best ones ever created, assuming you use proper user permissions to keep it safe. But Linux didn't invent that, Berkley did. In BSD Unix, in the 70's (yes, you can argue that Pl/s kernels from IBM could do it as well. But it depended on how it was setup on install.)

vilters,

Linux is never an open book, that is the beauty of it. The security which came from BSD Unix locks a system down far more than Windows ever dreamed of. It does not work anything like it does in Windows. Even if port 80 is in use in Linux, anything that is deemed off limits will prompt you for a password. You can't hack past that without the password. The only real way around it, is to infect a repositiry (the updates). What that does is add malicious code to an update that would have to jot down your password and go from there. Even if it has your password, there would have to be a rather substantial kernel change to hide it from the user. It is not impossible to do it, but it is not real probable that you will pull it off for long before a patch is made and the infected server is back to normal. There are just to many people watching that for it to go un-noticed for long.

I have far more experience with Linux/Unix on the server side than the home version side. To me there just isn't enough support on the home side yet to use it. I wish there was, because it would remove most of the headaches that you get in Windows. Hopefully someday there will be far more support for Linux/Unix.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

**
@Vilters**
That's simply not true.

Also, people should not tolerale being manipulated by these monstrous companies, it's just way out of control. People should not use any operating system for anything important that is not composed of free software (free as in the code being freely auditable by anyone). You need to use an OS where the code can be read by anyone capable of reading code. By others being able to read the code, there are effectively millions of coders around the world that are your guardian.

So ask yourself, do you trust code you can't read, code that is developed by commercial companies, or do you trust code that anyone can check-over and is developed for the good of the user?

No GNU/Linux distro that repects freedom and your privacy will ever knowingly incorporate malware, spyware, or anything that is bad for the user. If it did, it would be found out almost immediately and it would be the beginning of the end for that distro. To install malware in a GNU/Linux distribution would be as dumb as swapping a field of grass for a field of needles and hoping the cattle won't notice. As you will have gathered from the video, Ubuntu did that, but ask yourself where Ubuntu now ranks on the "freedom and privacy scale" - I'm guessing it's rock bottom along with MacOS, iOS, and Windows etc.

**
@David**
No upgrade has ever been forced upon Debian users. Server-side changes are not client-side changes (and the user is the client). You're talking about a change that was done to protect users, not manipulate them, and even then, you still got to decide what you want to do regards the installation. You were in control and could have made the decision to wait for an audited verdict by those you trust before allowing it onto your own system.

That's a world away from the monstrous 'shove it on their system whether they want it or not' mentality that the corporate monkeys at Microsoft practice. Like I said, nothing has and nothing ever will be installed on my Debian system without my knowledge.

@Shane
It is a bit OT, but you're helping to protect and educate people by this stuff being here. What better place for people to discover a friendly alternative than in a thread about how Microsoft are manipulating their customers (yet again). The biggest problem is that people don't realise there are free altenatives to being manipulated by these companies. Users need to remember that they owe Apple and Microsoft nothing, nothing at all. They also need to realise that purchasing an OS should not have to mean giving up your privacy and freedom in order to use it.

Both Apple and Microsft need putting back in their place, making plastic boxes with circuit boards inside and nothing more. I for one will not tolerate having my life manipulated and controlled by some company started by a bunch of Silicon Valley geeks. They don't own me, they are not gods, they are not the law, but if people continue to support these tossers, then what they (not me) have right now is just the tip of the iceberg compared to what they have coming to them as "useds" in the future.

It's a shame people can't see the result of what will come of all this manipulation and data-mining.

What's the point of having a beautifully, solidly, perfectly secure OS if the hardware itself can be compromised?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not about to start manufacturing my own chips and drives.

If you're really worried about privacy, you need to get completely off the grid because your electrical wiring can be used to eavesdrop on you.

And I believe Vilters is correct. While you can reduce the likelihood that your communications will be intercepted, you cannot eliminate that chance, except by not communicating. Snowden knew this -- hence the insane cloak and dagger charade that he and Greenwald and Poitras had to go through before they revealed his identity (and after -- to protect the documents). The moment you have connected to the internet once, your machine is no longer useful. One use only.

But, while I abhor the surveillance state and feel that it is a curtail on freedom that will have serious repercussions well into the future, I also don't think I am very likely to become a direct target. Ever.

And MS isn't controlling my life any more than any other extremely large corporation. Short of moving to the Yukon and living out Jack London's novels, the influence of groups of powerful people over me isn't about to go away, regardless of which OS I use. ;)

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

You're right, there is hardware itself that will overcome any privacy steps you put on it (which is why you shouldn't use it), this is why such things as the "Open Hardware" groups now exist, they're already putting those monstrous a-holes back in their place. The big "N" have even resorted to pretending that they can monitor you "no matter what" - even though they can't.

They can monitor you, but they can't monitor you "no matter what you do", they just want you to think that so that you don't bother to protect yourself from their spying. Unfortunatley, that little game appears to be working for them to a certain extent. Unfortunately, some people wouldn't spot manipulation and emotional blackmail if it smacked them in the face. Ignoring them and "protecting yourself no matter what" is what you should be doing.

Personally though, I'm not interested in defeating the big guys from spying on me, well I am, but that's not my major concern. I'm more concerned about protecting myself from the likes of Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and all the other mass data-mining tossers out there. You do that by using an OS designed by the public for the public, it's your first step towards not handing everything over to those tossers on a plate! Most people really need to get a grip of how monstrous this stuff really is (and how it's very likely going to be used against them in the future), because clearly, most people have no idea whatsoever.

Just remember, there are growing numbers of Open Hardware developers coming onto the scene now because of all this crap, even the big names are supporting it now, so that alone should tell you how important it is to avoid using privacy-invasive OS's like MacOS, iOS, Windows, and Ubuntu - and to avaoid stuff like Google and Facebook. If you continue to use them, it's you that will pay the price in the future, not those who protected themselves.

It's simple:
They can't do anything with what they don't have, and that's how it needs to be, them in possesion of nothing because none of this stuff is any of their business. What are all those people who use "health monitoring" apps going to do in the future if the data accidentally on purpose gets leaked and conveniently aquired by all the health insurance campanies? What are all the Apple Touch ID users going to do if someone accidentally on purpopse figures out a way to distribute everyones fingerprint along with their exact ID?

Example here, what do Apple users store on their iPhoneys?

Name
Age
Address
Sex
Health Statistics
Personal Unique Fingerprint
Card Details
Both large scale Movement Tracking and even personal Small Movement Tracking (which in effect, is complete mannerism tracking).
It knows what they look like
it knows what they sound like
It knows what they like
It know what they don't like

I mean Bloody hell, surely that's already twice as much information than some hack would need to commit a crime but get the user (or rather "used") convicted for it. It is totally unreal how much stuff these monstrous companies are gathering from the "useds" of these devices, and like I said earlier, they ought to be hung for it (and would be if I were in power, as would every politician that had any control over it while it was permitted to happen). They should be treated the same way as war criminals.

The alternative, of course, is to use an Open Hardware phone/computer/OS that does not allow remote control by those who want to (and will) illegally spy on you, and where basically, people aren't dumb enough to actually give such data to companies as that listed above. I don't own any form of SpyPhone (AKA SmartPhone). The only time that will change is when open hardware phones are mainstream and have been tested by organizations I trust.

The term "SmartPhone" has to be the most contradictory name ever given to a device because using one is anything but "Smart". But on a lighter note, I saw an awesome video on YouTube, some guy made a fully functioning smart phone out of a Raspberry PI, complete with antenna and touchscreen. Now that is what you call smart!

Click Here for an early Custom-Built SmartPhone - the smarter way to go about it ;-)

Awesome or what?
All from a £25 Raspberry Pi - gotta love the Pi :woot:

PS, my apologies to Shane, forgot about the OT thing, and for what it's worth, I get really tired of speaking about this stuff anyway.
People have to figure it out for themselves, I'm just thankfull I'm aware of these things enough to avoid them.

Pumeco, I don't have a smart phone. I actually don't have a cellphone because I don't need one. When I did, I just bought burners. Mobile contracts in Canada are insanely expensive and binding. No thanks. Ditto to Facebook, Twitter, etc.

I do have Google accounts. About 15 of them. Real name, DOB, etc? Are you kidding? I started on the net in 1990, long before the web existed, and back then your .edu address was linked to your legal name, but nothing else was because no one thought that was important. Then again, the net was being run on public dollars, not advertizing. So I challenge Google to figure out which of my email addresses contains real information, if any. As for my browsing history, were I a political activist, I would worry and take greater steps to cover my tracks. However, I'm not.

Renderosity has some real info because I have made purchases here using a credit card. In other words, Rendo knows my legal name. Nothing else.

And there's the real info leak: if you use credit cards to make purchases, your bank has far more legitimate ironclad and damning knowledge about you than any social network, and banks have been known to use that information to charge higher interest rates based on purchases (for ex: lots of alcohol = higher interest rates, I guess because there is a supposed correlation between alcohol consumption and defaulting on credit card payments).

As for social media, well, people DO give too much information away. In British Columbia, auto insurance is coordinated by a single company, and they will do ANYTHING, from sending investigators to your home to physically watch you to trolling your social media accounts in order to try to discredit an insurance claim. In that environment, it's silly to be incautious about what you make public.

But I'm curious about what damning information MS is supposed to have on me and how they are supposed to be using it. I mean, I suppose it's possible that every single copy of Windows contains keyloggers, etc, but if that were the case, the poor buggers are drowning in so much data it would take them centuries to make any sense of it.

Again, if you're doing anything that could be considered "subversive" -- like volunteering to help people get out the vote (heh! I jest, but it's not really a joke) -- then exercising some caution is wise, and the more subversive your activity is, the more cautious you should be. But me? I'm too apathetic to be interesting to anyone. The worst you could probably say is, OMG look at how much she spends on CGI content!!! [And ever since my card was disabled because its details were stolen in the Sony hack, I haven't bothered to get a new one, even though a new number was issued. I've been using disposable cards. So even that avenue of info leak no longer exists in my case.)

Edit: As for whether the NSA is capable of spying on any given person, I'd say, of course they are. If you are a priority target, they are largely inescapable. If Angela Merkel's phone can be tapped, anyone's can be. But if you're just an ordinary person, the chance that they would spend the sort of effort to spy on you that they would spend on the head of the fourth largest economy in the world is pretty freakin' remote. I'd worry more about being killed by a meteorite falling from the sky.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote "I actually don't have a cellphone because I don't need one. When I did, I just bought burners. Mobile contracts in Canada are insanely expensive and binding. No thanks. Ditto to Facebook, Twitter, etc."

I do have a cell phone, a dumb one that is close to 6 years old and I think I might use about 4 minutes a month and a dozen or so texts. Don't use FarceBook or Twatter and Renderosity and Amazon are about the only sites that know my real DOB as I buy from them. All the rest have some strange information such as father's name - Dick Turpin or the like (non UK members might need to look it up) Mother's maiden name is something simple like Maiden (and I mean like) and I also check that there have been no searches on my credit rating an a weekly basis. Despite that my credit cards have been done three times four years but at least all the fraudulent transaction were noted in less that 48 hours and the last one in under three. That said I do order on the Internet a few times each week thanks to a large family - birthdays, Christmas and a hungry, intelligent dog that gets bored easily. Mind you my dog has an email account as well, which I use to send joke emails, but it should make interesting reading if they listen in on that one.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

To be frank, the people we should worry about are our ISPs/mobile companies. Unless we're taking pretty heroic measures to encrypt everything at the source, they have access to all our communications.

No point using an open source phone unless you're also using open source towers. If you're connecting that sucker to Bell or Verizon or AT&T and you're not encrypting your communications, you're handing everything to them, and to their lowest, minimum wage employees.

I worked for AT&T for about 2 months. The job requirements were: able to breathe plus typing speed of 30wpm+. No interview, no background check, no prior employment check, nothing. And as a customer service tech, I had access to the information for any customer who called: Name, DOB, address, SS#, etc, and credit cards used to make payments plus, I could read their texts, if I wanted. To be sure, I couldn't call up info on anyone I wanted, just whomever was on the line at the time. But were I criminally minded, I'd have more than I needed to commit identity theft.

When it comes to identity theft, that's what users of cellphones -- smart and regular flip phones -- should worry about. Not what OS they're using.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote: "All the rest have some strange information such as father's name - Dick Turpin or the like (non UK members might need to look it up) "

Exactly how I do it. Even Paypal has weird info on me. Part of that is because I didn't have a Paypal account until someone created an account with my email address (she had the same initials and last name as me, and mistakenly used my email addy several times. From this I know that she lives in Manhattan and where, that she likes sausage pizza from Papa Johns, runs a dance studio, what her phone number is, and that she's pretty hot looking).

Come to think of it, having a common last name and initials has led to many, many misplaced emails coming my way. I even got invited to a very large bachelor party in Palm Springs a few years ago. I probably should have gone. Judging from what those fellows are up to now, they're a veritable enclave of rising technostars.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Like I said, I'm not talking about going out of your way to defeat the big "N", I'm talking about the general stupidity of handing this stuff "on a plate" to any data-mining corporation that wants it.

I basically ensure the likes of Crapple, Microdick, Googlespook, Farcebook and Twatter are kept well and truly out of my business. By using Debian as an OS I don't need to concern myself with backdoors to these tossers or the system letting in or sending out anything I don't authiorize (almost the entire internet is run on GNU/Linux systems for a reason - it's because it's the most secure system). Bottom line is, no corporation or company pays me (or you) for this information, and even if they wanted to, I would not sell mine to them. You can imagine then, that I'll be damned if I'll just sit back and let them take it for free - which is essentially what people are doing - just like a bunch of muppets (or rather, marionettes).

I use Windows myself, I like using Windows, I'm using it right now simply because I happen to be booted into it. I wouldn't dream of using it for anything important though, anything where I want my communications to remain private. And that's my point, using an OS shouldn't mean a trade-off regards the privacy of the person using it. Thankfully, this isn't the case, and we don't have to put up with that crap, and guess how I go about that?

I use Debian, and I think everyone else should do the same if they value their privacy.

Ever hear the song I'm a Marionette?
The words in it are a perfect fit for how I see the general Apple and Microsoft OS using crowd, the words go something like this:

And I'm like a doll, like a puppet with no will at all
And somebody taught me how to talk, how to walk, how to fall

That part reminds me of Apple users believing everything the company (which incidentally is represented by a half-eaten fruit) tells them.

I'm a marionette, just I'm a marionette
Pull the string
I'm a marionette, everybodys glad
Just as long as I sing

That part makes me think of Apple only being satisfied when they have every entertainment consumer sending money exclusively to Apple to purchase it.

I'm a marionette, I'm a marionette
Just a silly old clown

Yup, very, very apt.

Can't complain, I've got no one but myself to blame
Somethings happening I can't control
Lost my hold, is it safe?

Bloody hell, it's like it was purpose written for the situation and those words perfectly represent the conclusion :-D
You can check it out for real by Clicking Here

Yup, I'll stick to my Debian :-D

Open Hardware Association (OSHWA) has nothing to do with the context you put it in. Open Hardware has more to do with using hardware that is outside of X86/X64 than anything else. Yes they have a board, take donations, etc. But if you go to the site there is basically no hardware listed. The most prominent piece of open source hardware is the Arduino Controller. The Controller is just that, a controller for robotics, 3D printing, etc. The movement for open source hardware has basically nothing to do with a desktop PC, other than an extension to it.

Now, don't confuse OSHWA with the OpenPower Foundation which wants to topple specific markets starting with servers, with the IBM Power 8 and up processors. That will be similar to what you said about open source hardware/code, accept it wont be on your desktop anytime soon. A base Power 8 system is 10 grand just for a single cou tower. A well populated one is 6 figures. If you think that will be more private, think again. It will be controlled by the same big names that control things now. They are not dumping that much money in it, to get nothing out of it.

As far as data mining goes, your Linux system is being data mined and if you say it isn't you are full of crap. You don't need a back door to data mine. Many sites require cookies or you cant even look at the page. Any php/perl/whatever server knows what you run os wise, basic computer specs like dsiplay resolution, browser used, your location to within a few feet, everything you asked that server, and where you came from to get there. Your isp knows everything about you, what your computer requested/recieved on that connection, and sells that information to whoever wants to buy it for the most part. All of that info can be linked back to your internet connection, your name, etc. Even if you never even went to a site that bought the info, they know what you normally do on the internet by your isp identifier. You may have an ip address that changes, but your isp identifiers and user id never changes on there end. Linux can't get around that either.

I wont even get into what the NSA does, we have all read about that.

You have been Data Mined whether you like it or not, and Debian can't change that and never could.

I don't think you understand how data mining actually works beyond the hype you read on a forum. No offense meant, but you don't.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

Lets just say I know a lot more about this than you think I do :-D

For the third time, I am not talking about defeating the big "N" - that's a whole different level of spying and data-mining, and yes, they're another bunch that ought to be hung for public amusement. I'm also well aware I've been data-mined, we all have. Debian doesn't defeat what is being data-mined once it leaves your system unless it is rigged with the right software, but it does allow me to control what gets put onto my system and what leaves my system in the first place, whereas Microdick Windows and Crapple OS, do not. The only reason Microdick can screw around and take liberties with their "useds" like that is because the "used" has no control over their own OS installation, even on their own hardware!

LMFAO

That's what we're talking about here, Windows users getting manipulated through "forced" upgrades. Like I said, I get really tired of even talking about this stuff because people really should have the intelligence to realise that they should not use anything that is designed to (and does) allow spying and remote manipulation of their system. At the end of the day, it's no skin of my nose what other people use, all I'm concerned with is that I, myself, am using the right OS. But when I see threads like this, or this type of discussion, I usually take the opportunity to let others know there are alternatives to all this manipulation and privacy-invasive crap.

Whether people think they should do something about it is always going to be a direct indication of their intelligence because the two are invariably linked. You either understand why you should not be using such OS's (and actually do something about it), or you don't. I haven't even touched upon Google's very own OS for the Chromebooks, needless to say it is owned by one of the biggest data-miners of the lot, Google, so need I say more. The only thing that can be done about this stuff is to let people know about the better, safer, free alternatives, and hope they see sense for their own good. I'm not Microdick or Crapple, you see, so I'm not in a position to "force" you to do anything.

Think about that, because that last comment says it all really, doesn't it :-D

Anyway, I'm not ignoring anyone, and I'll continue to read the discussion but I'm not replying further on this topic, it's too time consuming (and falls on deaf ears 99% of the time anyway). That said, Roxie has finally figured out how to use the new forum and has a little something she wants to say first ...

Yeah, listen, don't be a muppet!!!

MacOS and Windows are sooo boring and conformist anyway, so why would you use them? I've got a Raspberry Pi, I use that as my main computer running a custom Debian OS. I can do whenever I want, and DAZ still don't have a clue who keeps culling all their Vickies!!!

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

PS: I forgot to say to David, you should dig a little harder regards "Open Hardware" systems in the sense that mean exactly that, Open as in the entire hardware is auditable and certified free from nasties. Broadcom kindly even released to the Pi users, data for a component used on the Raspberry Pi, because until they did, it was the only part of the Pi that people weren't 100% sure about. So there you go peeps, a turn-key way to help protect yourselves from all this crap, just grab a £25 Pi, stick the pre-installed Debain-based OS into the SD card slot and switch it on. You have a dedicated, self contained computer and OS that was not designed to manipulate or spy on you. You can use it for the net, your banking, watching 1080P (it's silent, no buzzing fan noise), whatever you want, keep it totally seperate from your main computer.

Perfect.

Why Debian vs any proven UNIX variant that gets the job done. FWIW, you can change environmental and user configurations in Windows, and just like UNIX - it has its consequences. That last sentence had me LMFAO "OS that was not designed to manipulate or spy on you". Sheeple. Operating systems are DESIGNED to host programmed services. How you use that, is up to you and the limitations of the operating system you (or others) have selected. You have the choice to be aware of the services being processed, however ALL systems are susceptible to misuse and abuse by externally introduced and hard-coded malware, intrusion, mis-representation by proxy, and theft.
I think your point, is that your choice of systems is easier to lock down and prevent unauthorized access than a common windows based system.

There are Windows based systems that are minimally exposed. Issue is often more that desktop applications like the browser and user introduced services that compromise O/S security that are the source of the threats most users face. I have had to pull my Debian based systems off-line several times this year from hacks (smtp spam services), and I see that the linux patches keep coming, nearly as fast as Windows.

Don't know why pumeco is so paranoid, unless he/she's got something in the box that probably shouldn't be there. Someone wants to mine my computer, have at it, you'll get tired of finding nothing of any use to you. I don't have to worry about my non-existent cell phone being hacked, nor my non-existent social networking being hacked and mined. The problem isn't the computer or operating system, it's what you feel you have to put where it shouldn't be in the first place. My first rule, I don't give anyone my CC number via computer, that's what the telephone, connected to a wall outlet, is for. The net is what this computer is for, and that's all it's used for. Period. I'm not lost or helpless without a cell phone, if I'm not sitting next to my phone, it means I don't want any calls and good luck getting me to answer if you call. I don't do file sharing and good luck to anyone that wants me to download the software to allow it, I know enough not to download something that I'm not specifically looking for.

Seems the problem with systems is pumeco, not the systems.

Doric.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

Bloody hell, is this national 'troll a pumeco' day or something?
What was the point of posting that in an old, effectively dead, thread?

If you're stupid enough to think that your right to privacy goes hand in hand with paranoia, then you have a very real problem, one I certaily can't help you with. And if you don't have problems now, hang in there, because with an attitude like that, I'm guessing it won't be long before you have some. If you think that using a closed corporate OS with built-in backdoors is a better idea than using an open, publicly audited OS, that's fine by me, just as long as you don't try to piss on others who know better :-D

I'm not the one who thinks the right to privacy is paranoia, you are.
I'm not the one getting data-mined, you are.
I'm not the one with an OS that has a mind of it's own creators, you are.

If you're really that pissed off with your OS to post something like this, chances are you're frustrated because you're using an OS which, deep down, you know you really shouldn't be using. The way to deal with that is remarkably simple; ditch it and use some common sense like millions of us are doing over the world right now - it's really not the dodgy, top-secret, underground world you seem to think it is.

You do realise that there are more GNU/Linux based OS' installed on devices and systems than any other OS out there, don't you?

If it makes you feel any better, come join the "paranoia" brigade - you'll be welcomed with open arms!
We've been expecting you, but what took you so long?

Bloody hell, is this national 'troll a pumeco' day or something?
What was the point of posting that in an old, effectively dead, thread?

If you're stupid enough to think that your right to privacy goes hand in hand with paranoia, then you have a very real problem, one I certaily can't help you with. And if you don't have problems now, hang in there, because with an attitude like that, I'm guessing it won't be long before you have some. If you think that using a closed corporate OS with built-in backdoors is a better idea than using an open, publicly audited OS, that's fine by me, just as long as you don't try to piss on others who know better :-D

I'm not the one who thinks the right to privacy is paranoia, you are.

I'm not the one getting data-mined, you are.

I'm not the one with an OS that has a mind of it's own creators, you are.

If you're really that pissed off with your OS to post something like this, chances are you're frustrated because you're using an OS which, deep down, you know you really shouldn't be using. The way to deal with that is remarkably simple; ditch it and use some common sense like millions of us are doing over the world right now - it's really not the dodgy, top-secret, underground world you seem to think it is.

You do realise that there are more GNU/Linux based OS' installed on devices and systems than any other OS out there, don't you?

If it makes you feel any better, come join the "paranoia" brigade - you'll be welcomed with open arms!
We've been expecting you, but what took you so long?

Cell phones account for Linux base saturation's. Over all, Android is number one, (at 40% if you consider all devices) but obviously that has more to due with cell phones and tablets than anything else.

Free (or close to it) cell phones running Android saw to that.

As far as the desktops go, Windows has about 57%, Apple 18%, and Linux has 20%

Cloud computing servers are primarily VMWare as the root operating system, which is neither Linux or Unix even thou it has similarities. These servers usually run many operating systems at the same time, after booting to VMWare.

HTTP servers are primarily Unix or Windows Server.

As far as Linux Server goes. Ubuntu is number one, then Redhat, SUSE (novell), etc. Debian is number 7 even thou others are based on it. But many boot to VMware as the primary op system.

Linux desktops are similar, just take Redhat off the list. Debian hits 7 on that list as well.

Notice how much VMWare comes up yet it is not considered an operating system because of it was, it would really throw off the numbers,,,,

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

I'm not the one who thinks the right to privacy is paranoia, you are.

I'm not the one getting data-mined, you are.

I'm not the one with an OS that has a mind of it's own creators, you are.

No, I'm the one that isn't going to accept the invasions that may or may not,(Probably not) come, by not USING those things. No info in this machine, and I keep it that way. If they want to know which groups I visit, I hope they have some interest in something besides a computer. If I'm getting data mined, would you be so kind as to tell me what they're mining that I should be paranoid about?

Good luck to hackers getting into my cell phone, when it doesn't exist, and won't. Most useless thing ever developed, bar none.

IF they want my browsing history, I hope they find RIngebuRC interesting, it's good humor. RCGroups or RCUniverse,likewise. Groups and everything I post is there anyhow. Meant to be read, they're not closed forums.

You're complaining about windows, excessively, but if you don't use it, why in hell do you care if someone else does? Complaining about flash, then don't allow the updates, nothing says you have to.

OH! I know! It's my computerized radio control systems they can hack into! Not. First because I don't use them, second because it's a 4.2 ghz frequency hopping system, good luck when the frequency changes every tenth of a second, and their equipment doesn't know where it's going to jump next. Only if you want to believe that can happen, but even with me having a thousand dollars riding on that signal being stable, I'm not going to worry about it. IF I wipe out a plane, the better chances are I did what's known as a Dumb Thumbs, not because someone hacked into my system. If you don't want the updates, then don't let them install. No problem.

I get very bored with the technofreaks telling me I can't successfully fly a model with the system I've used for thirty years, and of the geeks saying ONLY one OS is worthy. The freaks and the geeks are in the same boat, and they're still wrong.

Doric.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

@David
And what's remarkable about that is that GNU/Linux, like you said, has 20%, that's an incredible level now and is indication enough to know that in the future, almost everyone will have switched to it. It's inevitable because the makers of the commercial OS's are just milking the public for as much as they can while they still can. The only thing they're interested in is your data, because the data about you is the most valuable asset to them. If every one suddenly stopped buying their OS, they'd still be trying to throw them at you for free, because without it, your valuable data isn't handed to them on a plate.

Commercial OS's are effectively a data-mining server to them - you use - they gather. Clouds, for example, are something that exist for a reason, it has nothing to do with your convenience and everything to do with them being able to monitor you and control what you can and cannot do.

@Doric
First off, I'm no geek, I'm a guy with common sense, and no one said Debian was your only option, either, it's just the option I chose and can highly recommend. Buying a Raspberry Pi and installing the default Debian OS on it is a fantastic way for anyone to remove their fear of using a GNU/Linux system. The thing costs peanuts and is likely the most important purchase they could make, they just don't realise it.

It's laughable that after all you just said in your post, that you have the nerve to call me "paranoid". From what you just said, you're every bit as "paranoid" as I supposedly am. If you're that paranopid then you might as well join us full-time and use a sensible OS rather than try unsuccessfully to hack a commercial one. Nothing you do on a Commercial OS will stop it sharing data about you - the solution is simple - don't use a closed commercial OS.

If you're that clued-up on these things, then you should know, by default, to avoid the commercial OS's. And as for the stuff they're data-mining about you, dear god, you really need to do some serious web-based research on the subject and avoid advertiser-funded sources of news.

There's a saying "the bigger they are, the harder they fall" - and Crapple, Farcebook Googlespook, Microdick and Twatter are as big as they get. Bottom line is you either wise-up pronto, or it's your data that will be falling along with them when the (now classic) inevitable happens. As is common knowlage nowadays, the price people will pay is going to be direcly linked to how much data they managed to milk from them, and the more they keep up the commercial OS usage, the more the milkage will be.

They can't do anything with what they don't have, it's that simple - honest it is.

You apparently have difficulty with the English language. My cell, blackberry i-pad or whatever can't be hacked, because I first have no need for those things, and secondly because I don't have them. If you want to waste your money on that crap, have at it, just don't invite me.

The sites you mention, the so called "social networking", another thing I don't use, they're worse than useless. ebay, another trash site, one for the real rip off artists. Paypal, forget it. Don't need it, just a useless scam.

OH! Page Plus crashed! Do I care if someone knows I did something dumb and the program puked? No. DO I care if there was a crash and Microsoft asks me to send an error report? Am I going to send it? No, not for a ten year old program. Do I care if flash crashes and sends a report to home? No. As far as I know, the "drastic, terrible, horrid" data mining by the big software firms, isn't happening.

Don't you think, every time you take your car in for service or repair, that information, if you took it to an authorized dealer, goes back to the car company? Sorry, it does, and with a lot more personal information than I have in this machine. Do I care if someone knows what I posted on a group? If I did, I'd be pretty stupid to have posted it. How about the rash of breaking into corporate systems and stealing data there? The better chance, by a huge margin, is those were either unix or linux based systems, not windows.

If you're that worried someone will find out what you're doing, the better chance is you're doing something you're not proud of to begin with. Worry on, just keep in mind that a lot of people don't like windows, but we still use it, without any problems. YOur opinion counts for one, you, nobody else. You're kinda outnumbered a little.

Doric

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

@pumeco

Windows is not going anywhere, for a long time. Yes Linux has slowly gotten more percentage, but the gain has been no where near as fast as many people like yourself predicted.

Way back when Windows Me was a complete disaster, many Linux buffs predicted market saturation would be over 50% on desktops in a few years, and it is not.

Same thing happened at Vista, and it didn't happen then either.

The increase that has been seen lately (about 10%) is from systems like the Chromebook. and get what you pay for.

Very few mainstream programs will run on it, which is understandable since it is still considered a work in progress. Even by Google.

Microsoft was slow to take action, but have since released similarly priced stripped down notebooks that will run most programs that customers already have. Once that happened the gap stopped changing in Google's favor and is actually starting to go back the other way again.. People are familiar with Windows, and have many programs that will run on it. Windows 8.1 has more reverse compatibility then 7 did, which adds even more software that will run to the mix.

One of the biggest hurdles Linux has, is the consumer. And the average person is not going to put up with Linux as soon as they can no longer do what they did with Windows.

Try to play a DirectX11 game in Linux... Yes you can get it to work, 5 years after the Linux people announced it would. Guess what, Windows 10 uses DirectX12... Your 5 years behind with Linux, again....

Try to install your favorite Windows program in Linux, if there isn't a Wine wrapper for it, it wont work. Yes there are free alternatives that run fine in Linux, but it will be set up completely differently and require someone to relearn a program to do what is second nature in Windows. Most people don't want to spend weeks learning a new software when they have one they already know.

The best chance to disrupt Windows reign, is not with the current Linux. It will have to have huge advantages over what everyone has now, and presently Linux does not.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

@PrecisionXXX
Yup, clearly another troller who I'm guessing has an atom-sized brain.

Continue kidding yourself by all means, but quit kidding others, because the facts are out there, and it's time you discoverd them. My grasp of the English language is fine, so I suggest you grasp it is well. You're clearly one of those who mouth-off about stuff they only think they know about, but you're right, I am indeed hiding something, I'm hiding what is my business from those companies, because my business is my business, not Apple's, Google's, or Microsoft's business. You don't even need to have been a member of Farcebook for them to track and data-mine you, they can do that even without you ever being member, so I'm afraid your your smug, lax attitude just jumped up and smacked you in the face - your beliefs literally just fell apart in an instant.

Until you actually get to the stage where you know what you're talking about, I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself, or go and troll everyone else who uses a GNU/Linux system, see if you can make all of them look like criminals as well, because I've noticed that's all your posts are trying to do every time you have posted in this thread. Carry on as long as you're prepared to face the consequences of doing so.

Now, get the f*ck out of here before your mouth gets you into trouble - go play with your Windows or whatever.
Privacy is a right you are born with, and hanging onto it is not a criminal activity.

And finally, I don't need to "worry on" - because I'm not the one using a commercial OS, as I've already pointed out to you (and it was in English).

@David
Sorry, crossposted again!

Makes no difference though, not really, GNU/Linux is gaining ground faster than it ever has, and one of the reasons for that is people are getting wise to whats really going on. The more it happens, the more people are aware of it and the more people ditch Apple and Microsoft because of it. It's not perfect, but seriously, I mention the Raspberry Pi because it's the easiest way to get into GNU/Linux for those that have never used it, or have used it years ago and couldn't understand it.

One of the biggest problems people used to have with GNU/Linux is the installation of software, they thought it was overcomplicated. But with a Raspberry Pi, you get a computer and a ready installed Debian OS, and installing new software on it is as easy as searching the software section, selecting what you want from the result, and clicking install. It's not a power computer, it's not meant to be, but the point is, it's a self-contained computer - completely seperate from your main computer.

For peanuts, you get a peice of hardware and a ready installed OS that is dead easy to use and is not commercial. The bonus is that having a seperate device to hand, you soon get the hang of using it, so then installing the OS on your main system later on, is no problem. A further benefit is that you have a safer system for browsing the web, and being totally fanless, it's silence means it can double-up as a cool little media player that'll run 1080p, no sweat.

My Pi is never switched off, it must have been running for at least two months now without a break since I last rebooted it. The silence means that I use it to watch movies when I'm in bed and don't have to bother about falling asleep and being woken again by the sound of a noisy fan.

It's a great little device in more ways than one, and everyone should have one.

Now, get the f*ck out of here before your mouth gets you into trouble - go play with your Windows or whatever.
Privacy is a right you are born with, and hanging onto it is not a criminal activity.

SInce you choose to be the jerk and everyone else has to be wrong, Suppose you spell out exactly what someone is mining out of my computer. If you can't, then just shut the f*ck up. IF THERE'S NOTHING IN IT, THERE'S NOTHING TO GET OUT OF IT. Or are you magically connecting with my life by some profane means? If you think anyone can get anything out of my other two computers, good luck for them, because they don't see the line and never will, I work with those, this one is my "play box". My own laptop upgraded from 8 to 8.1, all I can say is it went from unusable to useable. I'm not going to complain about that, and I've denied it access to the net now. BFHAD.

I'm not going go out and buy a blackberry because some one thinks I need one because his life would end without it. Sorry, I live in the real world, not a fantasy created by a bunch of silicon chips.

And again, exactly what are they mining out of my computer when I don't put anything in it? Answers, or admit you don't know, you're just parroting what some talking head told you.

Doric.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

"Makes no difference though, not really, GNU/Linux is gaining ground faster than it ever has"

This was recently updated. This is average op system based on desktop http internet server requests. It isn't fantasy, it is fact.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

Notice that Linux is now 1.25%. A year ago it was 1.38.

Linux is loosing ground again, not gaining. The spike in usage can be traced right to the Chromebook if you know where to look, and the spike is over.

The only thing gaining, is delusional and biased statements claiming that it is

The number don't lie. These are real time statistics that reflect what is actually being used the most to do internet requests across all desktop devices.

At the rate the Linux usage decline is going, it will soon be lower than it ever has.

As far as mobile and tablets go, you are incorrect again.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8&qpcustomd=1

IOS and JAVA far exceed any Linux based system.

Linux has lost ground there as well.....

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I substitute your reality for my own..........

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

"And again, exactly what are they mining out of my computer when I don't put anything in it?"

Nothing, absolutely nothing, but don't you see how you're contradicting yourself there?

What's the point in having a computer and the convenience of, say, being able to pay online in an instant, if you're scared to use it? People should not have to be concerned about using a piece of hardware and software that they own, and no company should ever have control over other peoples systems, we should be able to trust what is in our own homes with absolutely no holdbacks at all - your home is your own private space - not a freaking playground for every corporate tosser who feels like it, to dip their corrupt noses in.

Unfortunately, we cannot trust commercial OS's so we absolutely need to take steps to prevent the snooping and data-mining that goes on. You do that by starting off with a trusted and open OS. I get you have a system you cannot get data-mined from, but if the reason for that is "because you don't use it" - it's not really relevant to what we've all been discussing here.

There will come a time when there is no such thing as cash, and absolutely everything you need to do, will have to be done using your computer or whatever. When that time comes (and it's not too far away from the looks of it) you are going to have to use that computer or some device, for the things you are currently not prepared to use it for - you won't have a choice in the future.

@David
Yeah but statistics are just 'waypoints' that should never influence what you want to do.

It doesn't matter to me whether one, one million, or one billion people use GNU/Linux. I use it myself for the reasons I pointed out to PrecisionXXX.
In an ideal world, we wouldn't need to be concerned about this stuff, but unfortunately, it's not an ideal world.

I completely agree that statistics should not influence what any one person wants to do, use, etc.

But at the same time, the statistics show that Linux is loosing ground on all fronts.

It is a shame that it is, and having a zillion different versions of it is most likely what is killing it.

Now that it is loosing ground again, getting more apps developed for it will shrink at the same time rate.

Yes there will always be some people using it, but not in areas that other operating system prevail.

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

I recently worked on a low - spec laptop which was supplied with Windows 8 and, due to the low spec, was almost unusable. I did a general clean up and Windows update but the laptop was still a pain to use. Then came the point where I had to upgrade to Windows 8.1. After which is was very much better. It will never be a gaming machine but with Windows 8.1 it was usable something it was not with Windows 8.

@David
Yup, but again, those statistics always change, it goes up and down, and like you said, it's usually in conjunction with other events.
I think the big event, the one that will have millions running to Debian like a heard o Elephants, is if Apple's customer data gets compromised.

To be honest, I'm only using the word - if - just to be civil about it, but as far as I'm concerned it's more a matter of when, than if.
Same with Google, same with Microsoft etc.

"And again, exactly what are they mining out of my computer when I don't put anything in it?"

Nothing, absolutely nothing, but don't you see how you're contradicting yourself there?

You do that by starting off with a trusted and open OS.

Open and trusted, and well documented to every hacker on the planet. As far as the on line sh*t you seem as to not be able to live without, what's wrong with checks, cash, and the telephone when I have to? I don't email my kid, I drive to go see her. I only use my credit card with a few places, but those places, I've dealt with for more than thirty years. By phone. If I have questions, I don't wait a day or two for answers, I ask them and get the answers right away. How is on line superior? Banking, I get a monthly paper statement, to be filed with the rest, I know where I am with that. And no, I'm not contradicting myself, I'm saying there's nothing there to mine, I don't have to worry. If I was worried someone would read what I post, I wouldn't post. The answer isn't what might be mined, it's putting what anyone would want to mine in the computer that's the problem. And the argument that money is going to be made obsolete, bullpucky and the technofreaks dream. "Bring your computer so you can plug into the parking meter". Paypal, ebay, "Wow! Get it now! Rare! Vintage! and only $199.95!" Just don't look it up where you'll find it's still available for $19.95 NIB from any reputable dealer. But that's your world, not mine. I'd rather go talk to the dealer.

If I order from one of my suppliers by phone on Monday, I'll be opening the box before one in the afternoon on Wednesday. If I order on line, it will probably be Friday, which I suppose in your mind is an improvement as you didn't have to talk to a human. If you're happy with linux, goody. Just don't think everyone else is going to fall into lockstep with you because you like it. The rest of us get along just wonderfully with what we have and don't complain because you use something else. Your opinion counts for exactly one, yourself and nobody else.

Doric

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

Hey,

I take it you missed all my posts where I said I never use SmartPhones, iPads, Tablets, or the tapped webcams and microphones built into devices?
I take it you think I prefer online transactions to cash, are you serious?

Give it up, for god sake, you're preaching to the choir with that lot!
I'm the last person you need to say that sort of stuff to, I own none of that crap and never will :-D

I can't make it any clearer than I already did, my point is that while we can choose to do things the way we want to right now (most of the time), those days are coming to an end, and when they do, you will not be able to do things the way you are doing them now. But you're right, what I said is my opinion, but equally so, the same is true for your own opinion.

Neither of our opinions will change the fact that there are Debian users out there who cringe at the very thought of a commercial OS, and there are Windows users who cringe at the thought of using Debian. At the end of the day, the proof of what is the safer option to have in your life, will ultimately come when the first of the Commercial OS's user-data gets compromised. So basically, the one that keeps it's data secured the longest, wins, fair enough?

But you see what I did there?

You'll never see the user-data from Debian getting compromised, it's impossible because Debain have no user-data to compromise.
So may the best OS win, let the battle commence!

God, I love my Debian :-D

Funny. I'm still using Windows 8. No "forced" upgrade for me. I've punched the upgrade nag at least six or seven times since this thread appeared, just waiting for the time when it wouldn't work. Hmmm. Maybe I'm just special. ;)

I agree with you, Doric. The best way to protect yourself from the bad guys is simply not to play their game. As for open source: heartbleed, shellshock, truecrypt. Meh.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Unless you live in a third-world country, you're not going to have all the options you have now, in the future.

And if you go around using the web unaware of how they're doing all this, Farcebook, for one, are tracking and data-mining you even if you've never visited their website. This illusion you both have of thinking that "if you don't give them anything, they don't have anything" - is an absolute load of crap! You don't have to give them anything, these corporate monsters are taking it from you without you knowing it, and without you giving them permission.

As for you punching the nag screen, you should not have to deal with that nag screen in the first place, isn't telling them once good enough for them? You paid for your software and you should be left in peace to enjoy it, but instead, what they're forcing on you (even without the upgrade) - is automated harassment through a persistent nag screen that will not take no for an answer.

Using Debian, I don't even need to know the meaning of a "Nag Screen" - because they don't exist.
Using Debain, my user-data will never be compromised - because the OS doesn't gather it in the first place.

Figure it out.

Live in your fantasy worlds by all means, but if it were possible, I'd bet my life that using Debian is the safer option than any commercial OS, because it's impossible for me to loose that bet. You can either know when your argument is defeated, and accept it like a mature adult, or you can go on kidding yourselves. I realise you didn't address me in your post, but from now on I'm asking for no-one to address me in this conversation. I'm sick of trying to explain things where the logic is so obvious that even a child would grasp it without any difficulty at all.

Trust a commercial OS and you'll pay the price further down the line.
Over and out.

As for you punching the nag screen, you should not have to deal with that nag screen in the first place, isn't telling them once good enough for them? You paid for your software and you should be left in peace to enjoy it, but instead, what they're forcing on you (even without the upgrade) - is automated harassment through a persistent nag screen that will not take no for an answer.

Would someone like to inform pomelkopf that there is a process for disabling updates? And as it's written by the people that wrote windows, it even works. Pomelkopf, you need to change your news commentators to some that aren't in panic mode constantly, or start to realize that you can trust nothing you get from the net, or the mags. Panic mode should be reserved for that second after your car drives off a cliff at full speed, otherwise,it's quite unbecoming anything.

Doric.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

Panic is what you do if you rely on a "commercial" OS - it's not something Debian users are familiar with :-D
So like I said, you stick to your Windows, I'll stick to my Debian.

Constantly trolling to justify your stupidity, isn't going to change anything. Getting all upset and shouting about it, calling people names like some 'frothing-at-the-mouth' loonatic, isn't going to stop me from using Debian and it's not going to stop you from using Windows.

If you're happy with Windows, use it, but what do you what me to do about it?
Exactly, so stop going on about it because I'm not interested in Windows, or your opinion :-D

Panic is what you do if you rely on a "commercial" OS - it's not something Debian users are familiar with :-D
So like I said, you stick to your Windows, I'll stick to my Debian.

Constantly trolling to justify your stupidity, isn't going to change anything. Getting all upset and shouting about it, calling people names like some 'frothing-at-the-mouth' loonatic, isn't going to stop me from using Debian and it's not going to stop you from using Windows.

If you're happy with Windows, use it, but what do you what me to do about it?
Exactly, so stop going on about it because I'm not interested in Windows, or your opinion :-D

Fine. Stick with debian then, the only one that cares is you. However, I'm not interested, I don't care what system you use, but the lying BS about how bad WIndows and Mac are, unwarranted, untrue, unwelcome. Oh, BTW, Don't care what you want to call me, as long as it's not late for supper. I'm also, or have been known as:

Lennie the Lurker

President and Public Relations Officer

Whack-a-loon ink.

Makers and Purveyors of Fine Quality Loon Mallets.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

Thanks for telling me ... yeah ... well I'm not telling you what I'm also know as ... so there :-D

Gotta love keyboard warriors, hows the Acne?
Oh, and don't forget to tidy your room.

@pumeco

You talk about Debian users not having to worry about anything, but you must not have been a Debian base user between 2006 and 2009.

If you were, chances a better than good that your system was compromised and data mined.

There was a code change on it early in 2006, that introduced a huge security issue.

I know, I know, lots of people look at the code and it is all good.

Accept that for 2+ years and multiple updates (in 3 thru 4), no one writing Debian updates noticed that every Debian install had a serious security issue in OpenSSL.

Anyone that knew it was there was in your system so fast it wasn't funny.

The fix for it was drastic, and far more than just that had to be changed.

So much was changed, that there could be another issue in it that no one has discovered on the side that fixes it.

Did I mention that it still is not fixed???? Oh, just did...........

You always mention how safe and secure Debian is and it has had severe security issues in the past, and still has some.

To err is human, to really foul up requires a computer..... The errors continue to plague OpenSSL....

Here is the current list of OpenSSL issues in the very OS you are running. Some are fixed, others are not. Which means you are not as secure as you think you are.

https://packages.qa.debian.org/o/openssl.html

and

https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/openssl

And this is just the issues with OpenSSL....

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

Makes no difference to me, it's still way better than using a commercial OS

No OS available is free from flaws, and Debian, just like the commercial OS's, has a list of issues to fix. The difference is, those issues aren't hidden from you, the code is publicly auditable, and for that reason alone you know it's not designed to screw you. If an intentionally malicious feature ever got into Debian, that would ruin it's reputation, and as Debian has a reputation for security, that's good enough for me.

I don't think my system is inpenetrable, that would be bumb and unrealistic. All I expect is to be able to use my computer, secure in the knowledge that I'm not using something that was designed to be a server to ship-off my data to a bunch of data-mining corporations. Our user-data has nothing to do with those corporations, it's absolutely none of their business, so I'm not going to hand mine to them on a plate through using those custom designed data-mining servers they try to pass-off as an OS.

You're every bit as welcome to use one as Doric or anyone else is, and that's your choice, but I won't be.

For those who like to pay money to corporations so that they can be data-mined - there's MacOS, iOS, and Windows.
For everone else - there's Debian.

f you're happy with Windows, use it, but what do you what me to do about it?
Exactly, so stop going on about it because I'm not interested in Windows, or your opinion :-D

I can't speak for Doric, but for myself, what I want you to do is stop calling everyone who disagrees with you stupid (among other things), stop preaching as though you personally know the word of the internet gods, and stop the constant software bashing.

The reason I permit the upgrade nag to appear is that I intend, at some point, to upgrade, and I am not in the least bit perturbed by having to click a single button once a week. If that kind of thing really gets your blood pressure up, then congratulations, you must have an extremely good life. In my life, such as it is, a software nag is a tiny, tiny inconvenience of such little consequence that I barely notice it. I find that there are far more important things in my life to obsess over than what OS other people are using.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

You're every bit as welcome to use one as Doric or anyone else is, and that's your choice, but I won't be.

For those who like to pay money to corporations so that they can be data-mined - there's MacOS, iOS, and Windows.
For everone else - there's Debian.

Did you ask about that on alt,alien.vampires,flonk.flonk.flonk? Or maybe you'd like to go to alt.hackers.malicious. I'm sure they'd explain where the weaknesses in debian are, and maybe even send you a few samples. Or, maybe I'll go to alt.fan.karl-malden-nose and invite them to come and play with you. They'd have a lot of fun. Except those groups are extinct, but the people aren't. I'm quite sure alt.usenet.kooks would have really had a ball with you too. You might even have won the KOTY award.

Do us a favor and hurry up shutting up about a system we don't care about.

And I'll guess you weren't even out of high school, if you were even in school, when I was Lennie. But, those groups were programmers, not hackers, and knew the ins and outs of all of the operating systems as a matter of making a living, and irritating people.

If debian is so great, why aren't the professional 3d programs ported for it? Hmm?

Doric.

BTW, most people know, the "I" in Doric is silent. Did you?

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

Pumykins, you want no one to address you, but you want to be able to keep making posts. LOL. The internet doesn't work like that. If you post in a public place, then you're inviting a response. The only way to NOT get a response is to NOT POST.

I asked ages ago what exactly it was that Microsoft was mining from me, and you still haven't told me. What are they getting? Specifically. More to the point, what are they getting that every single organization that has ever accepted my credit card has not been getting (and been getting now for decades)?

If you're concerned about the NSA, you had better believe that open source OSs are completely compromised. You don't think the NSA has programmers adding code to it when they are freely able to? Sure, it's open, so people would be able to vet that code, wouldn't they? Yeah. Exactly as they were able to vet the code that brought us shellshock and that had compromised servers since 1989. That's a very long time for every server using those packages to be vulnerable to intrusion from a code error that the programmer wasn't even trying to hide. Were you even alive in 1989?

Whoever has been telling you that open source is so secure is either quite gullible themselves, hasn't heard of Edward Snowden, or is working for the government. Or is GCHQ issuing you a paycheck? You can be honest with us. We won't judge you for it. :D

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

@Doric
I think quite a few of us worked out that the "i" in your name is silent, but now that you've actually admitted it point blank, it'll be interesting to see exactly how much longer you are permitted to troll a member who has already asked you to stop addressing him.

@Morikins :-D
You're starting to behave irrationally, because evey question you just asked has been answered more than once already. I'm not interested in defeating the 'Big N' - that would be quite a feat. All I'm interested in is keeping the corporate data-mining tossers out of my business, because my user-data is none of their business! I'm sorry but if you can't grasp that, I can't help you, and if you miss it yet again even this time, then it just means that you're choosing to miss it. I couldn't care less about "Doric", or how many big names he manages to spell. I do care about how you come across though, I've never seen you as a troll so far, so please, keep it that way because seriously, I can't make my position on the whole data-mining thing any clearer than I have:

I do not trust Apple, Microsoft, or any other commercal OS - but I do trust Debian.

As for what is getting data-mined from you, dear god, that's something you need to research. With a bit of luck you'll be waving goodbye to Windows pretty quick and without any resevations whatsoever. But if not, like I said, that's fine as well because at the end of the day, it's not me that'll be using it's, it's you.

Regards you not minding being nagged by a product you paid for, I'm happy for you, but personally, it's not something I tolerate. If I were in the position I didn't want their "enhancements" while running a Windows system, I'd be pretty pissed-off about a constant nag screen.

If my non-existent user-data manages to get data-mined from my use of Debian, it'll be a miracle, and I'll be the first to take my wooly hat off to you and admit defeat if that happens, because despite your opinion of me, I'm really quite happy to be defeated and don't mind admitting when I got something wrong - not in the least. So if Debian turns out to be a mistake, believe me, I'll happily accept it.

Only time will tell, but like I keep trying to get you to realise, my OS user-data can't get compromised because my OS doesn't collect it in the first place.

@Doric
I've been thinking about what Moriador said, and as you're obviously so well clued-up on all this stuff, ok then, I have a question for you.

Rather than go on the abusive because I recommend Debian, what 'OS' do you recommend to onlookers?

See if you can answer that without spouting your panic-ridden bullshit about you not even connecting your computer to the web. People won't give-up using their computer on the web, that's obvious. If you have such a low opinion of Debian, what other option is there, what option would you choose assuming a person actually needs to make use of their computer on the net?

You clearly like to badmouth me for recommending Debian, but so far you have offered no alternative to it whatsoever. You're being asked a civil question in a civil manner, so see if you can reply to it in a civil manner - what would you use?

The one making the claim is the one who is responsible for doing the research. If you can't tell me what data MS is supposed to be mining from me, then that tells me that you don't know. It's not up to me to verify YOUR claims. That's up to you. Or, of course, you can just say "do the research". And I can say that your mind is being controlled by small plush unicorns, and if you did the research, you'd know that. :P

Like I said, it's not a constant nag screen. It's one mouse click a week. If that's constant to you, then I guess you don't use a computer very much. LOL.

I don't know about Doric, but most of us aren't interested in recommending OSs to other people. Usually by the time they are posting on the net, they've made up their minds already. We'd only give opinions if someone asked... or in this case, if someone started giving unsolicited advice. From what I can see, no one said that Debian is a bad OS. What has been said is that your claims that Windows is as evil as you say are quite dubious, and your insulting people who use any other OS besides Debian is disrespectful and -- unfortunately -- a far more memorable indicator of your character than just about anything else you've done or said.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Most people aren't interested in recommending other OS's to people, because most of them haven't a clue why other people do it. You reply is yet another indication that you have no idea of why that is - and that's not my fault. If you honestly don't know what's going on with those OS's, then there is something wrong somewhere along the line. And I'm not the only person on these forums who knows what goes on, either. Shane is clealy aware of some of it, as is FightingWolf as was proven by a post of his the other day, here's something for the Apple users to think about:

"The same thing that you are complaining about is done with Mac OS. Your Mac OS tracks your behavior as well and collect more data than adobe flash. Washington Post Article: Apples Mac Computers Can Automatically Collect Your Location Information I

"Once Yosemite is installed, users searching for files – even on their own hard drives -- have their locations, unique identifying codes and search terms automatically sent to the company, keystroke by keystroke. The same is true for devices using Apple’s latest mobile operating system, iOS 8"

See even Apple does what adobe does and more."

You still want to try and convince people that using a commercial OS is a better bet than my recommendation?
Give it up, Moriador, this stuff is beyond monstrous!

I could give you a whole bunch of proven data-mining, but again, I'm not going to. The reason I'm not going to give you anything is because it get's people curious, and when they get curious they are going to seek out that information because no one is handing it to them. And while they're seeking out that information, they learn a whole lot more than any post I could make on the subject. This stuff is not secret anymore, there is literally tons of this stuff out there, all proven, all verified

And I've told you before, I like Windows, I've used it ever since I had a PC - it was always my choice of OS - and it's not like I enjoy the inconvenience of having to start again with another OS. But I will not tolerate the sort of thing that goes on, it is monstrous, and I post what I post because even the very thought of people using these monstrous systems without knowing what's going on, feels inhuman. It's feels like letting someone do a skydive if you know they haven't fastened their harness properly.

The only questionable characters are those who defend this bullshit - not those who fight against it - troll.

I don't use a Mac. So, I'm still curious. Not because I can't do the research, but I want to know if you can. It would seem that you can't. Or won't. Because you won't like what you find -- which is that MS has one of the strictest privacy policies of all software vendors, and the most to lose from a big scandal.

So. MS knows the IP of this machine, which gives geolocation information. Something every single website I've ever visited knows (or can know). MS knows what OS I use. So does every website I've ever visited. MS knows the validation serial number of the OS. So what? They don't know who bought the machine I'm using. MS knows a few more odd pieces of technical data about my machine, not unlike what's in my signature in these forums. What else? Not much. And absolutely nothing that points towards MY IDENTITY. Hell, Renderosity knows far more about me than Microsoft. I quake in fear of the Rendo marketplace gods!

Google might know a lot more about me -- if it actually knew who I was. What it knows is that a whole bunch of activity comes from a particular IP in my city. Wow. Good for Google. Whatta they gonna do with all that data? Well, they might change the UI of their search engine. They might improve their algorithms. Hell, they might even decide that nothing on YouTube is worth keeping except audio books of Herodotus and videos of kittens falling asleep.

What exactly is anyone going to do with all that data?

You're not afraid of GCHQ, but you are afraid of Microsoft. Sorry. Doesn't compute.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Next you're going to tell me that MS has keyloggers and are logging everything I type and view and hear on my machine, not to mention the mic is always on, right? And they employ an army of 100 million people who spend 18 hours a day without breaks, watching all this activity, furiously taking notes like Stasi spies, and compiling a huge dossier. And no doubt aliens brought to earth by Hilary Clinton piloted the planes that hit the World Trade Center on 911. Oh, and Steven Colbert is a lizard man.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Pumykins, you should read some serious sci-fi. In less than twenty years, we'll have quantum computing, and shortly after that, a self-aware, self-propagating AI with such a high level of intelligence that no human on earth can even imagine its full capabilities. It won't be long before that machine will know everything, down to every configuration of adenine, guanine, cytosine, and thymine in every molecule of DNA for every living thing on earth. The Singularity. It's a thing.

And you're worried about Microsoft knowing what kind of hardware you use? :D

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

@Moriakins
As it's you, and I have a certain fondness for you (although god knows why after the way you treat me), I typed "Windows keylogger" and found this:

It took me like one second to find it :
Microsoft admits Windows 10 preview has a keylogger

I laugh at your posts, Pumykins. And I do mock you, true. But it's not malicious. :D

WIndows 10 preview has a keylogger. Okay. So what? 1. They state it explicitly. 2. Logging behavior in developmental or beta software is hardly new or surprising. 3. It's no indication that there will be such a logger in the actual public release, and given the public response to such things, it seems extremely unlikely. 4. If there is, I won't use it. 5. There isn't one in the version of Windows I'm using.

Edit 6. Apparently, MS even tells people using the preview not to install it on production machines -- that is machine that in actual use for anything but testing.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

"I laugh at your posts, Pumykins. And I do mock you, true. But it's not malicious. :D"
No worries Moriador, and to be honest I'm not in the mood to battle any more, my head will explode if I keep it up.

@Doric
I've been thinking about what Moriador said, and as you're obviously so well clued-up on all this stuff, ok then, I have a question for you.

Rather than go on the abusive because I recommend Debian, what 'OS' do you recommend to onlookers?

See if you can answer that without spouting your panic-ridden bullshit about you not even connecting your computer to the web. People won't give-up using their computer on the web, that's obvious. If you have such a low opinion of Debian, what other option is there, what option would you choose assuming a person actually needs to make use of their computer on the net?

You clearly like to badmouth me for recommending Debian, but so far you have offered no alternative to it whatsoever. You're being asked a civil question in a civil manner, so see if you can reply to it in a civil manner - what would you use?

Which ever one they would choose. Not my decision to make, and damned sure isn't yours. It's not that you prefer your brand of snake oil, it's that you're pushing it and dissing everything else. Don't forget, you're in the less than 20%. Hardly mainstream. BTW, I have three computers operational at the moment, and this one is the only one allowed to know there IS an internet. What's the problem?
Doric.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

For me, 20% is pretty mainstream, it's almost a quarter of the market, I think that's very impressive considering what they're up against!

Regards me pushing Debian and dissing everything else, you're taking things too literally. Yeah, I do push Debian in contrast to any commercial OS, but I don't push Debian as being the only alternative to a commercial OS. I've tried all sorts of distros. Trisquel is another one I would have no problem using (if only I could). I can't use Trisquel though, because the hardware on my main box isn't supported due to the lack of open drivers for it.

If I were to use it solely as a web machine, no problem, but I aim to move completely to the new OS, so the drivers have to be good otherwise the graphics performance stinks. What's good about Debian is it supports a massive amount of platforms and a massive amount of drivers, so much so, there's even a dedicated version of Debian for the Raspberry Pi (Raspbian) - which is the official OS of that device.

For the price of a few Blu-rays, a complete noob can pick up a brand new Raspberry Pi and a ready installed Debian OS. People can play with GNU/Linux easier then it's ever been possible to do, and all on a dedicated device seperate from their man box. This is why I push such things, it's not just that it's default OS is Rapbian (Debian), it's that it takes away the scare factor a lot of people have about "Using Linux".

If I were to use it solely as a web machine, no problem, but I aim to move completely to the new OS, so the drivers have to be good otherwise the graphics performance stinks. What's good about Debian is it supports a massive amount of platforms and a massive amount of drivers, so much so, there's even a dedicated version of Debian for the Raspberry Pi (Raspbian) - which is the official OS of that device.

For the price of a few Blu-rays, a complete noob can pick up a brand new Raspberry Pi and a ready installed Debian OS. People can play with GNU/Linux easier then it's ever been possible to do, and all on a dedicated device seperate from their man box. This is why I push such things, it's not just that it's default OS is Rapbian (Debian), it's that it takes away the scare factor a lot of people have about "Using Linux".

Absolutely duckiy, wonderful,outstanding. Now the question you didn't ask, "Do I give a sh**?" That I can answer, no. Not now, not next year, not ten years from now. I have no idea what BluRay is, or if there even is such a thing, but guess it's either some kind of mindless entertainment device or maybe your music videos that you pay for, watch once, and pay again. Raspberry Pi? Better beat what my wife used to make or it's not worth a damn. "Official OS"? declared so by who? And again, I don't care. What you fail to see is I look at all of that crap as playbaby things, things I don't need. I'm not one like you, if you were disconnected, you wouldn't exist. I'm connected if I want to be, and disconnected if I don't. OH! Someone might steal my home phone number! See if you can get me to answer it, that tells you how much good it will do you. Or if I do answer it, try to get me not to hang up. The things you seem to hold supreme, I discard as useless distraction. I don't live in a silicon generated fantasy, I live in reality. Nothing you mentioned existed 30 years ago, and we were better off for it not existing.
Doric.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

"Nothing you mentioned existed 30 years ago, and we were better off for it not existing."
Finally, something we agree on.

pumeco...

You keep mentioning 20%, but the numbers are far lower than that depending on how you look at it..

I looked back thru the records and Linux usage has never hit 20%, ever......... Not even close, no matter how you look at it......

They are far lower than I previously thought as well. Before you freak out, note usage....

For Linux desktops, http requests are 1.25% and it has dropped every month for over a year.. ...

Desktops make 90 to 95% of all http requests every month. 90-95 % Includes all operating systems, and just 1.25% of those are Linux based.

For mobile, Linux varies around 12% if you include all possible variants that are not MS/Apple/Palm, etc....

Unfortunately some of the ones that the Linux stats include, are not actually Linux at all... That is where the differences come in, on certain statistics...

Include just Linux in the mobile http request equation, currently it is less than 1% ...............

What does all this mean? It means that a lot of people have Linux based stuff and don't use it. The 20% number is based on shipped units, not usage....

Don't get me wrong, Linux has its place, but bullshit numbers are just bullshit numbers. If you don't use something, how could you count it as using it?

So, if you crunch the mobile numbers, 1 out of 20 people that own a Linux based mobile anything use it on the internet. 19 out of 20 just use it as a phone, since that is what it is...........

Total internet usage for http requests with Linux is about 1%

Picking up your Linux Phone and calling your mother doesn't really make you a Linux user, just a good kid that calls his mom.

When I was younger and called my mom on a land line, did that make me a switchboard user?

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

For me, 20% is pretty mainstream, it's almost a quarter of the market, I think that's very impressive considering what they're up against!

Regards me pushing Debian and dissing everything else, you're taking things too literally. Yeah, I do push Debian in contrast to any commercial OS, but I don't push Debian as being the only alternative to a commercial OS. I've tried all sorts of distros. Trisquel is another one I would have no problem using (if only I could). I can't use Trisquel though, because the hardware on my main box isn't supported due to the lack of open drivers for it.

If I were to use it solely as a web machine, no problem, but I aim to move completely to the new OS, so the drivers have to be good otherwise the graphics performance stinks. What's good about Debian is it supports a massive amount of platforms and a massive amount of drivers, so much so, there's even a dedicated version of Debian for the Raspberry Pi (Raspbian) - which is the official OS of that device.

For the price of a few Blu-rays, a complete noob can pick up a brand new Raspberry Pi and a ready installed Debian OS. People can play with GNU/Linux easier then it's ever been possible to do, and all on a dedicated device seperate from their man box. This is why I push such things, it's not just that it's default OS is Rapbian (Debian), it's that it takes away the scare factor a lot of people have about "Using Linux".

See, Pumy, this kind of post is actually far more persuasive (and it's not in the least bit offensive). I think you do best when you point out the specific reasons TO USE this OS rather than the reasons NOT TO USE our current one. People may disagree with your reasons, but not your reasoning. You're a good salesman (if you will excuse the term -- I don't mean it literally) when you stay positive. :)

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: OT - Being Forced to Upgrade to Win 8.1