Okay the title pretty much says it all. I'm thinking about buying a graphics tablet, ostensibly to help me with my modeling in Blender, and texture work in GIMP. So, I have a couple of concerns.

a. Price--  I'm looking for a basic graphics tablet for the purposes mentioned above. I don't necessarily need one with a lot of features, but on the other hand I also don't want to pay $500 for a tablet that gives me what one costing $50 will.

b. I've never really used a graphics tablet before. How much better is it than a mouse? I can see where it might be very useful for illustrations but I don't do illustrations, and unless Apple brings back MacDraw, I probably won't be doing much of that. So how much do I need one?

get a wacom bamboo. It's a good starter tablet and they last a long time. Wacom is about the best you're going to get from a tablet. My old graphire 4 is the precursor to the bamboo and it's over 10 years old, still works just fine. I upgraded to an Intuos pro med. last summer just cause I wanted a bigger work area and more pressure sensitivity. You should find Bamboos at best buy or just about any other electronics store for around $100. Can get them on ebay used for less. New ones usually always come with free software like Photoshop Elements, or Corel Draw, etc. 

You wont get the same features from a $50 tablet that you will in a $500 tablet. 

How much better is a pencil or a paint brush compared to a mouse? 

I recently purchased a Wacom Intuos Pen and Touch, the "medium" sized for about $200.00 at a Staples store. It replaces a cheaper tablet I bought off of ebay. When I moved up to Win 7 and Zbrush the older tablet basically didn;t work right any more, causing crashes etc. The Wacom has be perfectly behaved and was easy to install. I has a very nice "feel" almost like writing on paper. It can be upgraded to wireless by buying a part cosing about $35 dollars. The only down side I see so far is that it didn;t com with any new pen tips, but they only cost about $5-$8 for five tips.

 I have a Wacom bamboo too. LOL.
And I have a BIG Silverstar.

Both good tablets to work or play with, but when it gets serious-serious? => The mouse takes over.
Buy one, you can not go wrong with a Wacom bamboo as they do not cost an arm and a leg, but do not expect too much.
Its in the fingertips, the mouse or tablets are helper-tools to get it on screen.
Ha-ha-ha-, and in the end? 
The mouse always wins.
Just my 2 cents (after 4 years of use)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I've been using my Wacom graphire for over 10 years now, too -- actually may be closer to 15 years. They last a long time. 

My thoughts:

If you've never used one, don't get a hypersensitive one. Some of the added features may actually be more annoying than useful. As everyone suggests, get a Bamboo.

Size: if you're an artist who likes to make sweeping motions with the pen, the way you would on a reasonably large sketch pad, then a big pad is what you want. If, on the other hand, you tend to use very tiny strokes in a super detailed way, then a smaller pad is what you need because you'll find on a big pad that you need to make bigger motions to move the same distance over the same pixels. This is why I prefer a smaller pad. (And also why starting out with a less expensive version is the best option.) Some artists will do best if they have more than one size and switch between them. :)

You'll wonder why on earth you didn't get one earlier. :) 

But I'm with Tony. In many instances, the mouse is still a very good tool. (Except for 2D drawing, where I find a tablet to be absolutely essential.)

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

You do realize the weight map and morph tools are pressure sensitive, correct?

When I start my weight maps (have large areas to cover) I use the pen.  When I get to smoothing process, the pen is heaven and doesn't paint as heavily as the mouse where you need some small smoothing.

 Weigthmapping and morphing are another reason I'm thinking of getting a tablet. I've wanted one for years, just never went out and got it. Okay, Office Depot seems to have a Waccom Bamboo but they have at least two types called Bamboo, a 450 and 670.

 Mine is a Wacom Bamboo MTE-450A. I like it. But it is an older and discontinued model.
L"ll have to google the 670.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

 Office depot sounds like an online shop ? if you have local stores that carry bamboo's go see if you can hold one in your hands

theres nothing like the feel of something to help you make your mind up

my first one was huge (bought the biggest I could afford lol ) hated it , although technically its much better then my smaller one the small one is much easier to use and don't forget its only a tool and a tool your not happy with is a pain in the ***

Same here, I prefer the Little Bamboo over the large Silvercrest one.
The Silvercrest has more options and should theoretically be better.
But as I wote above; Pesonally? If the going gets tough, I grab the mouse.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

 Office depot sounds like an online shop ? if you have local stores that carry bamboo's go see if you can hold one in your hands

theres nothing like the feel of something to help you make your mind up

my first one was huge (bought the biggest I could afford lol ) hated it , although technically its much better then my smaller one the small one is much easier to use and don't forget its only a tool and a tool your not happy with is a pain in the ***

Office max is online but I also live near a store.

I can only say: buy it!

I have an old Wacom Graphire for my earn-a-living desk I use two times a day and an Intuos pen and touch for Poser, Paintshop and everything else. I use them whereever I can in lieu of a mouse. The pen is a real play-thing for me. Helps a lot to prevent carpal syndrom, at least for me it helped to prevent progress.

The M size is perfect for what you want. Smaller just is too small. Larger is just not practicble. 

The Bamboo tablet line here in the Netherlands at least is being phased out. They just have the Bamboo pad. I had a Bamboo Fun&Touch but last September spilled tea over it and it sadly died. Bought the Intuos M, now at Euro 170.- retail price, and love it.

I believe the Intuos Pen and Touch line has replaced the Bamboo but I'm not positive. In any case the M size I have has a nice weight, not too light so it stays were you put it but not too heavy if you want to stick it in your laptop bag. I is metal rimmed and has a bursh aluminum(/) drawing area. Plus, as I said earlier it can be converted to wireless with a simple plug in add on.

 Well, I also live near a Staples store. I'll probably stop by one of them tomorrow and check things out. Although I believe Ofiffice Depot has the Bamboo line and Staples seems to have the Intuos.

If you've never used one before, a tablet will revolutionise your Photoshop/2D/postwork. Here in the UK, I can only afford a cheap one - Aiptek.  Watch out for Aiptek though - the tablet works fine, but the pen monitoring software (ATWUSB.EXE) seriously conflicts with Poser and causes Poser to crash each time I try to load it.  If I disable ATWUSB.EXE before launching Poser it's ok, but it's a pain and then needs to be relaunched when you want to use the tablet.  I've given up producing any artwork now, but if I ever start again, I consider a tablet to be a must for postwork. 

My self-build system - Vista 64 on a Kingston 240GB SSD, Asus P5Q Pro MB, Quad 6600 CPU, 8 Gb Geil Black Dragon Ram, CoolerMaster HAF932 full tower chassis, EVGA Geforce GTX 750Ti Superclocked 2 Gb, Coolermaster V8 CPU aircooler, Enermax 600W Modular PSU, 240Gb SSD, 2Tb HDD storage, 28" LCD monitor, and more red LEDs than a grown man really needs.....I built it in 2008 and can't afford a new one, yet.....!

My Software - Poser Pro 2012, Photoshop, Bryce 6 and Borderlands......"Catch a  r--i---d-----e-----!"

 

I think almost any graphics tablet is better than a mouse for drawing/painting, but the big advantage of sticking with Wacom is the good drivers/software. I had a small cheapo tablet before this one (Genius, I think) and it worked well enough when new, but they didn't provide updated drivers for later OS, so it was useless when I upgraded.

I use a Wacom Intuos3 9x12", I bought the biggest one I could afford, but if I replaced it I probably wouldn't go quite so big next time - it takes up a lot of desk when you need to access the pad and the keyboard simultaneously. A wide format tablet is an advantage if you work on 2 monitors, it means you can access some of your second screen using the tablet. This is handy for applications where your workspace is on one screen but you need to access layer lists etc on the other screen without having to involve the mouse.

Take good care of the drawing surface, scratches will feel very unpleasant under the stylus. And adjust the stylus pressure for a light touch, it'll be easier on your fingers, on the stylus tip and on the drawing surface.

I started out with what must have been a graphire back around 2000, a couple years later i upgraded to a big purple intuos. I used both mainly for drawing.  By the time I started putzing around with 3d I'd switched over to Toshiba tablet laptops with active digitizers and wacom drivers. A temperamental Portege m400 which only lasted a couple years and then an M750 which I've been using since 2010.

A couple years ago I also picked up a entry level cintiq.  

I still find myself using the M750 a great deal and recently ordered a ram expansion for it to try to squeeze a few more years of life out of it.  It's a cintiq like experience and the differences in pressure sensitivity don't make a lot of difference in any of the work I've ever done, either 3d or illustrative.  I really only ever sit down at the cintiq when I'm doing texture/displacement work in zbrush and need the superior power of the pc it's hooked up to.

So, moral of story, maybe keep a tablet laptop with an active digitizer somewhere in the back of your mind too.

@Daz3d
@ShareCG

Yeah I'm glad I didn't go with the 9x12. I was going to as it was only $100 more, but the medium (6x9) is plenty big enough for me, and takes up a good bit of space on my desk - which is rather roomy to begin with. 

It did take some getting used to, switching from the graphire to the intuos, due to the massive increase in pressure sensitivity. My kit came with 10 additional tips and the wireless adapter, but for some reason I still have to use the cord cause trying to boot up with the wireless adapter in my PC takes forever. And it doesn't charge wirelessly so you still have to plug in the cord every so often. So I just leave it plugged in. 

I wish I could afford a cintiq. But I hear the surface scratches if you breathe on it too hard, so I'll be waiting until they hopefully get a more durable glass. At $2K a pop they shouldn't scratch so easily. 

Agree with the Wacom drivers. For some reason, I had to re-install drivers for my decades old graphire recently, and the most up to date ones they had were for Vista. LOL. Not bad, considering that I had just "upgraded" to Windows ME when I got the thing. They were fine. :) And it still works like a dream though, despite the fact that the tablet has had thousands of blackberry jam and cream cheese bagels sitting on it over the years, has suffered more than its fair share of coffee and hot chocolate rings, and I've never replaced a pen tip yet. It's probably time to do that, though. Occasionally the pen gets a bit sticky in places. But that might just be the jam. ;)

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

@Clarkie
I think getting a graphics tablet is a good idea, but be very careful about your choice on size.  I'm currently between tablets (I don't own one right now), but I started off with a very early Bamboo, then upgraded it to a later one, and both of them were the small size.  Inbetween all that I tired a larger one and absolutely hated the thing and sent it right back, in fact I hated it so much that even the small sized Bamboos feel more bulky than they needs to be now.

Be very weary of getting a large or even medium tablet because the chances are, it'll drive you nuts.  As you've never had one before, the best way to think about it is that when you hold a pencil or move your mouse, what do you notice about the amount of movement when you draw something or write your signature?

Exactly, your arm doesn't move, your wrist stays in one place and you merely draw or write by moving your fingers around.  Check out how much area you actually need to do that and you'll find it's well within even the smallest size tablet area.  If you get a medium or large you'll end up wanting to lay it on the desk and use it, and that's very annoying because you can't twist it like a piece of paper unless you're holding it, and until you experience that, you won't realise how disorientating and irritating it can be.  Doesn't matter whether you want to sculpt in Blender, write, or sketch - get one as small as possible is my advice, because you'll want to hold it rather than rest on it, and believe me, holding even a medium tablet is an absolute pain in the arse :-D

Small and managable is the key to enjoyable graphics tablet usage, for me anyway.  Think of a small one as having a nice compact pocket sketch pad, but think of the larger ones as trying to handle a large newspaper on a very windy day - no thanks ;-)

One final pointer (and ignore this at your peril), is to make absolutely sure you set up the response area and sensitivity/speed correctly for your own use.  It will ask you to touch the opposite corners of an imaginary square, and when you do that, be sure not to exaggerate, just relax and do what feels natural because this is how the tablet adjusts to how much movement you have on your fingers when holding the pen.  Don't be tempted to touch the outer limits of the work area, you must do what feels right to you, because that's what'll make it feel comfortable and purpose made for you.  Take the time to experiment with the setup before you start using it, get it right and you'll enjoy the tablet.  Get it wrong and you'll want to throw it out of the nearest window!

The smaller the better, and set it up correctly, that is all ;-)

Yep - this is my experience with tablets too. (I never bought a bigger one, but I've inherited a couple that I rapidly passed on to other people.) The bigger ones are really meant for people who want to recreate the feeling of painting on canvas with largish brush strokes and actual movement of the forearm. My MIL was a painter, as she loved her massive tablet (and her 42 inch monitor -- LOL). But I couldn't use the big tablet (wouldn't have minded the monitor, though).

I do all my work on the computer in a somewhat reclined position, feet on a foot rest, keyboard or tablet on my lap, mouse on the armrest. So holding the tools was never something I felt I wanted to do. But, indeed, you do have to make sure that the tablet keeps a consistent orientation. If you twist it a bit too much sideways, you'll wonder why on earth your pen won't move in the expected position since everything is relative to the surface of the tablet, not the pen (unlike a mouse -- where the orientation of the mouse pad doesn't matter at all). For me, this does make some drawing motions a bit more difficult -- for instance, a left to right downward diagonal -- because as Pumeco noted -- when I used to draw, I'd always turn the canvas or sketchpad to accommodate the orientation of my hand. You can't do that with a tablet -- at least, you can't with any that I've used.

But if you're using a small tablet, this issue is minimized. You still need to maintain the orientation of the tablet, but the motions are much smaller, so it's not nearly as noticeable.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Went to the Office Depot and Staples stores today to see about the tablets. Found out two things: the Staples store had closed up  and Office Depot doesn't carry the graphics tablets in store. I have to order it online.

Sounds like a recommendation to Wacom: make it possible to define the direction of 'below'.

"I wish I could afford a cintiq. But I hear the surface scratches if you breathe on it too hard, so I'll be waiting until they hopefully get a more durable glass. At $2K a pop they shouldn't scratch so easily. "

I've only got one small scratch on mine, I think it came from my wedding band when i absentmindedly swiped imaginary eraser dust off the screen.  

with the cintiq and with the tablet pcs, using the felt tip stylus heads seems to reduce wear. I never noticed any damage to the protective screen on my first portege, but I think they changed materials for the second model i picked up.  over time i slowly wear through the layers where the rotate icon is in zbrush.  It's a part that can (and has) been replaced.  It's not a problem I've had with the cintiq yet.

@Daz3d
@ShareCG

Comparison shop with Amazon, you might find a good bargain.

I think those WACOM Cintiqs are fantastic, especially the new large version, what a beautiful machine, I wish peasant me could afford one sniff :-(
And to think, rich kids get them for Christmas ... b*stards :-P

a few comments about software. with out software stabilization ya lines with be jittery .

i know ya not inking comics but for exsample ,say if ya out line a comic.will look like a nervous chihuahua drew it  with out  software stabilization.

don't know about gimp,photoshop but  i know artrage ,sketch book, manga studio 5 all have software stabilization tool.that help with jitters. 

but 

manga studio 5 has "figure draw tools" there killer for perfect lines :)  a lot faster then photoshop/gimps path tools .

 ---

don't know about blender sculpting tools but zBrush has sculpting stabilization tools.

---

99.9% of the time I use manga studio 5 the $47 version.

smithmicro magna studio 5 & clip studio pro 1 is the same app.

I think wacom might have a manga version that has manga studio 4 that comes with.but I'd defiantly up grade to 5 thou .

 

 

 

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Okay everyone, thanks for the advice. I just put in my order for a Wacom Bamboo Capture tablet from Amazon. Not a bad price either. I'll get it next week.

 

 pumeco quote

I think those WACOM Cintiqs are fantastic, especially the new large version, what a beautiful machine, I wish peasant me could afford one sniff :-(
And to think, rich kids get them for Christmas ... b*stards :-P

 

Blender & Gimp makes poor kids rich :) 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Wacom bamboo, all the way. 

...... Kendra

Went to the Office Depot and Staples stores today to see about the tablets. Found out two things: the Staples store had closed up  and Office Depot doesn't carry the graphics tablets in store. I have to order it online.

Staples must be having a bad year. I was so happy when one opened up downtown (about 3 blocks from where I live). It closed late last year. :(  It was located on the same block as another office supply store, so that might have had something to do with it. But as I live very close to the courthouse, traditional office supplies are a necessity in this part of town. We ordered six leather 3-way adjustable wheeled office chairs with armrests from them because the salesman told us they were on sale for $50 each, and they turned out to be a third of the price of dining chairs (and ten times more comfortable). The salesman was quite wrong. It was a much cheaper model that was actually on sale. (The ones we got were on sale for $299 each.) But Staples honored the sale, even after they'd delivered the cheaper ones. Maybe that's the kind of thing that resulted in closure. But we do have a set of great chairs -- which are perfect for epic D&D sessions. :)

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

If you've never used one before, a tablet will revolutionise your Photoshop/2D/postwork. Here in the UK, I can only afford a cheap one - Aiptek.  Watch out for Aiptek though - the tablet works fine, but the pen monitoring software (ATWUSB.EXE) seriously conflicts with Poser and causes Poser to crash each time I try to load it.  If I disable ATWUSB.EXE before launching Poser it's ok, but it's a pain and then needs to be relaunched when you want to use the tablet.  I've given up producing any artwork now, but if I ever start again, I consider a tablet to be a must for postwork. 

Hi there I'm living too in UK and I would have a look at PC World offers,they have now for £39.99 Wacom Bamboo or for £59.99 Wacom Intuos (CTL-480S-ENES),I was looking on Bamboo,which is right now cheapest at PC World 

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura

If you've never used one before, a tablet will revolutionise your Photoshop/2D/postwork. Here in the UK, I can only afford a cheap one - Aiptek.  Watch out for Aiptek though - the tablet works fine, but the pen monitoring software (ATWUSB.EXE) seriously conflicts with Poser and causes Poser to crash each time I try to load it.  If I disable ATWUSB.EXE before launching Poser it's ok, but it's a pain and then needs to be relaunched when you want to use the tablet.  I've given up producing any artwork now, but if I ever start again, I consider a tablet to be a must for postwork. 

I only noticed your post properly when Jura quoted you.  What's this business about "if I ever start again"?

A much needed break is fine, Paul. But you'd better not be giving up making art forever! Poser galleries across the web need you. :) And your images have been a solid inspiration for many of us for a long time, as well as a very pleasurable diversion.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

EClark1894 quote

Okay everyone, thanks for the advice. I just put in my order for a Wacom Bamboo Capture tablet from Amazon. Not a bad price either. I'll get it next week.

 

it's different for every Artist but we all have a adjustment time till we get use to tablets.

so don't get discouraged it's worth hanging in there till ya can get the dang thing to do what ya want ;) 

different tablets and app's can make a huge difference also. 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Just to add that if you need line stabilization (and many of us do, if only to save the hassle of cleanup later) you should check out Lazy Nezumi:

http://lazynezumi.com/home

Works with Photoshop and about any other 2D/3D soft you may use, including ZBrush and has a lot of cool features, including perspective lines/constraint drawing !

Just to add that if you need line stabilization (and many of us do, if only to save the hassle of cleanup later) you should check out Lazy Nezumi:

http://lazynezumi.com/home

Works with Photoshop and about any other 2D/3D soft you may use, including ZBrush and has a lot of cool features, including perspective lines/constraint drawing !

Sweet! Looks like a great plugin at a reasonable price. Thanks for the link.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

 cgWiz quote

Just to add that if you need line stabilization (and many of us do, if only to save the hassle of cleanup later) you should check out Lazy Nezumi:

http://lazynezumi.com/home

Works with Photoshop and about any other 2D/3D soft you may use, including ZBrush and has a lot of cool features, including perspective lines/constraint drawing !

 

sadly Lazy Nezumi Pro is just a Windows app & EClark1894 uses gimp on a mac, thou gimp could defiantly use Lazy Nezumi Pro

smithmicro magna studio 5 for windows or mac & has the same tools as 2D Lazy Nezumi Pro built in to MS5 and

manga studio 5 also has "figure draw tool curve" it's wicked .

99.9% of the time I just use MS5 but i'd use  "figure draw tool curve" no matter what app I'd use.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Having 2 tablets, i did a test last night.

For Poser and for Blender, the mouse won hands down. There was no competition al all.
What I mostly missed on the tablet pencil in Blender was the mouse "middle button" and the "rotating wheel".
The tablet pensils did not have those, and this slowed work down to a crowl.

For texturing work, (Gimp) it was about even. The tablets won on pressure sensitive usability. the mouse won for controllability.

For pure painting work, and photo touch up? The tablets won hands down.

hope this helps

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

& computers and phones with touch screens now.

I'd never care to draw on a phone but ya can now. the rotary phone has come a long long ways.

I haven't gotten a detachable notebook & don't know how I'd like it but it's a option now.

ya can get a 10 inch full PC with touch for $350.00  and that's all ya need. oh and a finger I guess.

more can afford that ,then a tower,screen,mouse,wacom etc etc $1000's 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

To be honest about my favor for tablet: I use Poser with a 3D mouse for camera movement.

Of course when the interface is designed to make maximum use of middle mouse button and scroll wheel, mouse has the advantage.

To be honest, the tablet is to help improve my texturing work more than anything, and when I finally get back to it, post work on my web comic. We'll see soon though. It's supposed to get here by Tuesday.

@RorrKonn
Yeah, but ya gotta be skilled with ya artisticness mate, even with ya Blender and ya GIMP, and unfortunatley I ain't very artsiticly talented :-P

@Clarkie
Just so you know, it's an accepted initiation process that when a man get's his first WACOM, he has to draw his fantasy woman.  It can be tasteful of course, but it is still expected of you either way.  In view of this, and you not being the type to break tradition, we look forward to seeing your first doodle :-D

Yeah, listen, Clarkie only wants a WACOM cause he saw how good my handwriting is and he's jealous!!!
I know it's hard to believe, but I really did it with a mouse!!!

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

pumeco we know you have talent but

since when has talent been a prerequisite to be a filthy rich Artist ? for reference Pablo Picasso.

get some rectangles and cylinders and get a rock block  texture and ya have a castle

or some dental floss for a Roxie bikini 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 EClark1894 helpful for texturing

 http://www.allegorithmic.com/

 http://quixel.se/

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

@RorrKonn
Well I have some technical talent, but I'd swap it in a heartbeat for some artistic talent if I could ;-)

pumeco we know you have talent but

since when has talent been a prerequisite to be a filthy rich Artist ? for reference Pablo Picasso.

get some rectangles and cylinders and get a rock block  texture and ya have a castle

or some dental floss for a Roxie bikini 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 EClark1894 helpful for texturing

 http://www.allegorithmic.com/

 http://quixel.se/

What makes you say that Picasso didn't have talent? Is it that you simply don't like the style of his most famous paintings? Is it because you have the typical person's preference for "realistic" art? Is it that you think he couldn't paint like any other painter? If it's the last one, you're mistaken. He was a prodigy who was selling and exhibiting paintings at age 15. 

He was completely capable of painting like the old masters. But eventually chose not to. Why paint like everyone else? Where is the innovation in copying a style that reached its pinnacle 400 years earlier?

Here's a link to his early work: 

http://www.wikiart.org/en/pablo-picasso/by-period/early-years

He was 12 when he painted this.

And 14 when he did this one

No, you don't get to produce the most valuable collection in art history by lacking talent. He had talent to excess. No one who has studied art history for five minutes thinks he lacked talent.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

And how old do you think he was when he painted this? Let's see. It was completed in 1897 and Picasso was born in 1881. Wow. Not bad for a teenager, eh? You think any of us could do better after a lifetime? LOLOLOL.

People generally don't like Picasso because they haven't spent time looking at his paintings, really looking at them. His later works aren't immediately accessible eye-candy. They're for an audience that wants something other than what they can see hanging over the bed at a cheap motel, or something deeper than you can get with a camera. He could have painted a thousand paintings like this one, and he chose not to. Someone who could paint like this at age 16 chose not to. You think maybe it's because he knew more about art than you -- or any of us? Or do you still think you're a good enough artist and that you know enough about art to judge Picasso negatively?

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

 pumeco 3D is 99% technical.

the only part that's not technical and require any artist talent is sculpting in app's like zBrush

& zBrush has so many helpful tools any one can do it. 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

moriador say when it come to music head bangers probably wont like a lot of country ,those that like country probably wont like a lot of metal.

your free to like any Music or Art you want ,does not mean I half to like it also.

Picasso released his stuff to the public ,so he opened it up to ridicule.

If ya not tuff enough for ridicule ,then probably best to stay out of the public.

I have public gallery's ,there all open to ridicule also.so give them hell if ya want ,I'm not scared.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

moriador say when it come to music head bangers probably wont like a lot of country ,those that like country probably wont like a lot of metal.

your free to like any Music or Art you want ,does not mean I half to like it also.

Picasso released his stuff to the public ,so he opened it up to ridicule.

If ya not tuff enough for ridicule ,then probably best to stay out of the public.

I have public gallery's ,there all open to ridicule also.so give them hell if ya want ,I'm not scared.

LOL. No one says you have to like everything. You can like and dislike whatever you want. But when you state that someone lacks talent -- you had better be able to back that up -- or you're the one who looks ridiculous. 

I'm sorry, but "I don't like X" does not mean the same thing as "X is no good". If you think it does, then you had better have a lot of authority in the field. And in this field, you don't.

If you don't like Picasso, that's fine. But if you've dismissed the entire modern art movement just because you've looked at a couple of paintings and they don't strike your fancy, then you're approaching art like someone who doesn't care about it. And if you don't care about it, then your own creations are never going to be any better. If not getting better is fine with you, fair enough. Many of us, however, believe that opening our eyes and our minds is good for our own attempts to create art -- and good for our souls, too.

We also enjoy going to museums a whole lot more because we don't spend the entire time saying, "This sucks, and that sucks. That that over there is terrible!" :D (When I overhear that at a museum, I'm embarrassed for the person because all they've managed to do is demonstrate to everyone else in the room that they don't know much about art and aren't willing to learn. )

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I think it would be fair to say are philosophy's are very different.

Jackson Pollock ,Pablo Picasso and so on they do what they do and over the centuries there's been all the movements and all.

but to me which I don't exspect you to agree.

They can't touch the talent of Royo or Boris which to me are the greatest Artist that ever lived.

I know I know how dare I say Royo and Boris are greater than Michelangelo ,Da Vinci ,Pablo ,Jackson etc etc

& I have no doubt the gallery would want to hang this barbarian for such blasphemy but I so don't care.

I have never cared what the gallery ,teachers or fine Artist have to say.

I will always improve my style of Art.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

 wow this drifted a long way from .................

why not go the whole hog ? get oculus rift and leap ;-) just make sure you don't get caught smoothing vickies Tshirt    ;-) 

Got my Bamboo tablet on Tuesday.  Unfortunately, the DVD drive on my Mac is kaput, so I can only use it for now with my PC laptop until I can figure out a way to get  the driver software on my desktop.

 Simple; Do NOT use rthe driver that comes witht he tablet.
Go to their site and download the latest driver. Somethign in the region of version 5.33

http://us.wacom.com/en/support/drivers/

The new driver is FAR better then the old one.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Thanks, Tony. I was actually thinking of that the other day then promptly forgot all about it. :)

I still need to go get a new DVD drive though for other purposes, but at least I've got the Bamboo working now.

congrats 

for when ya need new nibs or anything else

https://store.wacom.com/us/accessories/nibs-and-ink-refills/

they have different nibs ya might like

pliers will get the old nib out ,just leave enough of the nib so ya have something to grab with the pliers.

if the old nib gets flush with the pen ya have one heck of a time getting the old nib out. 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Three extra ones came with the pack, but sounds like someone could have come up with a better design to make changing the nibs easier.

 EClark1894 quote

** **Three extra ones came with the pack, but sounds like someone could have come up with a better design to make changing the nibs easier.

get no argument out of me. just never ever let it get flush with the pen

mileage may very but a normal nib only last me about one month. 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I think it would be fair to say are philosophy's are very different.

Jackson Pollock ,Pablo Picasso and so on they do what they do and over the centuries there's been all the movements and all.

but to me which I don't exspect you to agree.

They can't touch the talent of Royo or Boris which to me are the greatest Artist that ever lived.

I know I know how dare I say Royo and Boris are greater than Michelangelo ,Da Vinci ,Pablo ,Jackson etc etc

& I have no doubt the gallery would want to hang this barbarian for such blasphemy but I so don't care.

I have never cared what the gallery ,teachers or fine Artist have to say.

I will always improve my style of Art.

Hey, I think Royo and Vallejo are great! Nothing wrong with loving their art. Their reasons for doing art, though, were quite different. The fantasy artists tell a strong story and delight the eye -- with beauty, with horror, with drama. A fantastic use of the medium.

Picasso, Pollack, DeKooning, Matisse -- these guys were coming out of the end of the crazy prudishness of the Victorian era. And I'm pretty sure they'd totally agree with you. Because what was popular in fine art at the time was realism: nudes, forests, ships, pastoral landscapes, flowers. Nice stuff, but a few centuries of that stuff and it gets old. The modernists were rebelling against the idea of fine art being held hostage by rich patrons -- and their extremely conservative tastes. Over a period of about 30 years, the modernists broke just about every single rule, and they did it flagrantly. Much of the time, they wanted people to look at their art and be shocked. They're the reason you can paint a blue nude with imperfect proportions and glowing hair -- and people today won't automatically laugh at you and tell you to put your "crayons" away. Because it's been made acceptable and accepted. The modernists were also very political (most were extremely left-wing), and many of their paintings are political commentary on the times, the plight of the poor, the horror of war, etc. (After so many millions died in WW1 -- trying to represent these things with the very delicate and genteel styles that were in fashion seemed disgusting to these artists). And some artists painted parodies of each other -- and themselves.

I think if Picasso were reading this now, he'd chuckle -- and be extremely pleased that people are STILL arguing about his paintings 100 years after he painted them. :) You don't have to like their stuff, though I think they're worth looking at anyway. If nothing else, if it weren't for the modernists, we'd still be painting nothing but postcard type pictures of women with little dogs, and tall ships on big waves. :)

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

While you both have valid points, my own preferences are based on 'subject' rather than artist.  I'd rather have a poorly painted Babe hanging on my wall than a beautifully painted Vase with a Flower in it :-D

You can keep all that funky stuff with people who have square heads and eyes stuck to the sides of their noses, I don't like that style.  And to be honest, I get kinda frustrated when people continually worship those past artists, it's like they think they were the only people who ever lived who deserve to be called artists.  Fact is, I see stuff painted nowadays that runs rings around them, yet those artists are just a nobody.  So for me, the best artist is one who has technical skill and just happens to paint a subject I like.

Anyway, back on topic, where's Clarkie's first doodle?

While you both have valid points, my own preferences are based on 'subject' rather than artist.  I'd rather have a poorly painted Babe hanging on my wall than a beautifully painted Vase with a Flower in it :-D

You can keep all that funky stuff with people who have square heads and eyes stuck to the sides of their noses, I don't like that style.  And to be honest, I get kinda frustrated when people continually worship those past artists, it's like they think they were the only people who ever lived who deserve to be called artists.  Fact is, I see stuff painted nowadays that runs rings around them, yet those artists are just a nobody.  So for me, the best artist is one who has technical skill and just happens to paint a subject I like.

Anyway, back on topic, where's Clarkie's first doodle?

I certainly don't think these are the only artists worth being called artists. That would be really silly. I'm into all sorts of art from ancient to tribal to pop to contemporary and everything in between. (Though my favorite portrait artist is sometimes Vermeer/ sometimes Picasso.  And my favorite landscape artists is Cezanne. ) :)

I guess you're not into non-representational art, then? You know, the kind that shows you the raw emotional power of simple composition and color alone?

Anyway, abstract expressionism -- about more than subject matter itself. About the artist's relationship to the subject.

Pumeco, given your stated interest in certain kinds of erotic horror, surely you must like De Kooning! Most of his paintings are of women. :D (said with just a little humorous sarcasm) Take this one for instance. This one is entitled Seated Woman. I find this painting to be UTTERLY. FUCKING. TERRIFYING.

He was quite capable of doing a traditional pretty nude. But what he was interested in painting wasn't what a woman looked like (We all know what women look like --There are billions of images of nude women. He was painting how women made him feel. Very few artists are capable of being this... honest.

People didn't hang these kind of paintings on their walls in order to make the wall look nice. They did it to make their guests gasp -- to react with strong emotion. :D (These days, few people would do it at all. The paintings are worth too much.)

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Well I've never heard of the artist, and it's not the sort of image I'd want on my wall, but it's still an interesting image.

I think that's the sort of thing where the artist themself would make a good subject for a documentary, but like I said, it's not something for my wall.  But it's good that it terrifies you because it means that the artist created a work that means something, so good for him, because whatever it means (good or bad), at least it means something.

What interests me more about your comment is that you assumed I'm a fan of "Erotic Horror" - and you're right - I am!

Thing is, I've never said so, so how on earth did you know that?
You reading my mind like that is even scarier than what you're getting from that painting :-D

 pumeco how do you think women always stay a head of us dudes ? they can read are minds & see are souls.talk about scary

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Well I've never heard of the artist, and it's not the sort of image I'd want on my wall, but it's still an interesting image.

I think that's the sort of thing where the artist themself would make a good subject for a documentary, but like I said, it's not something for my wall.  But it's good that it terrifies you because it means that the artist created a work that means something, so good for him, because whatever it means (good or bad), at least it means something.

What interests me more about your comment is that you assumed I'm a fan of "Erotic Horror" - and you're right - I am!

Thing is, I've never said so, so how on earth did you know that?
You reading my mind like that is even scarier than what you're getting from that painting :-D

Much as I'd love to let you believe I am psychic, I'll tell you how I figured it. You had that whole conversation with... please forgive me, I cannot remember his username .... the guy here who makes horror movies, I believe (if I'm not mistaken) which star his wife. And to me it was clear from that dialogue that it was a genre that you found very intriguing. I don't think you named the genre specifically, but it was what you two were discussing, essentially. :) So, not psychic. I frequently (though not always) just pay attention to things people say.

And, yes, I agree that getting something, particularly a strong visceral reaction, from a painting is a positive thing. I don't have to like a piece of art to respect its power to affect me. I hated, absolutely hated De Kooning when I first came across his paintings. Now I really like them. And I would put a good quality reproduction on my wall. But then my walls are currently covered with my photos, and they're in need of a change. :)

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Didn't you folks hear? Painting is dead.

:)

Jackson Pollock is probably my favorite abstract (or modern or whatever you want to call it) artists. The man was tormented beyond words and went into a sort of trance as he painted. I'd cover every wall in my house with his work before I ever hung a single Royo or Vallejo. Those two are good for what they do, but there's no depth to their stuff. It's just commercial art - eye candy for little boys to drool over and comic book publishers and video game houses to make fortunes from, and in a hundred years no one will care about them or remember their names because there's a million and one other artists out there producing the exact same thing. 

Jackson Pollock is probably my favorite abstract (or modern or whatever you want to call it) artists. The man was tormented beyond words and went into a sort of trance as he painted. I'd cover every wall in my house with his work before I ever hung a single Royo or Vallejo. Those two are good for what they do, but there's no depth to their stuff. It's just commercial art - eye candy for little boys to drool over and comic book publishers and video game houses to make fortunes from, and in a hundred years no one will care about them or remember their names because there's a million and one other artists out there producing the exact same thing. 

I've never quite got Jackson Pollock (I should try harder) -- and I think this is most likely because I've never seen one "in person". I'm told they are very powerful when you actually get to behold them. Like Mark Rothko (whose stuff is dismal in photographs) only even more so. On that note, I remember wondering what the big deal with Van Gogh was, until I saw one of his "bowls of flowers".  The collection that came to this city was one of the most expensive (it included some Cezanne, Matisse, Dufy -- and several others). But the Van Gogh was the only one behind glass. A smallish and very unassuming, humble painting. And yet looking through that glass was like looking at a terrarium. The flowers were alive. Because of the texture of the brush strokes, I guess some paintings react to light in ways that can never be reproduced except by a skilled forger who copies them stroke by stroke. I expect Pollock's paintings are similar in many ways. The light becomes almost like a living thing...

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

AmbientShade quote* Jackson Pollock is probably my favorite abstract (or modern or whatever you want to call it) artists. The man was tormented beyond words and went into a sort of trance as he painted. I'd cover every wall in my house with his work before I ever hung a single Royo or Vallejo. Those two are good for what they do, but there's no depth to their stuff. It's just commercial art - eye candy for little boys to drool over and comic book publishers and video game houses to make fortunes from, and in a hundred years no one will care about them or remember their names because there's a million and one other artists out there producing the exact same thing.* 

 https://thepatriotperspective.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/vietnam-wall.jpg I see how this has depth to it.

I get how superman ,batman have morals so there's depth to them.

but if ya paint something and you half to tell me what I am suppose to be looking at and seeing,well then are definitions of depth & Art are not the same.

Anyways you are right about the point of Heavy Metal and there Artist & Fans is all about cool eye candy and some cool story lines.
was never meant to be taken seriously.

Royo & Boris along with the others inspired 100's of Artist. I wouldn't right them off so easily.

nothing wrong with making a dollar. 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

True art, for me, doesn't need to explain itself. It has a different meaning to everyone that sees it. Pollock stopped naming his paintings because he was sick of people looking for the meaning attached to it. His goal was for the viewer to experience the work as a whole, to let it speak to them, instead of trying to pick out one aspect over another. Every piece, every grain of sand or piece of glass or drop of paint in it had its own life and story to tell, but no one ever really grasped it. His popularity for his work just drove him more insane and further into depression and alcoholism, to the point where he stopped painting all together. 

I've never been a fan of superheroes. They represent too many problems with modern society for my liking, so I don't see them or their stories as art. I've always been drawn to the anti-hero concept - the perceived villain that winds up saving you from the 'good' and the 'bad' alike. 'Evil' after all, is just a point of view. 

True art, for me, doesn't need to explain itself. It has a different meaning to everyone that sees it. Pollock stopped naming his paintings because he was sick of people looking for the meaning attached to it. His goal was for the viewer to experience the work as a whole, to let it speak to them, instead of trying to pick out one aspect over another. Every piece, every grain of sand or piece of glass or drop of paint in it had its own life and story to tell, but no one ever really grasped it. His popularity for his work just drove him more insane and further into depression and alcoholism, to the point where he stopped painting all together. 

I've never been a fan of superheroes. They represent too many problems with modern society for my liking, so I don't see them or their stories as art. I've always been drawn to the anti-hero concept - the perceived villain that winds up saving you from the 'good' and the 'bad' alike. 'Evil' after all, is just a point of view. 

Well, I have to take issue with several things you say in this post, Shane. So let's start with the first.  For me, art needs to tell me a story. Maybe because I like to write, I just look at it for it's utilitarian function, but for me True art communicates something to the people who see it. That's why I don't really like abstract art. It's like the polar bear in the blizzard picture. I just don't see it. I love true superheroes like Superman, Wonder Woman and Spiderman. Even Batman to some extent, but Bats is basically just crazy. True Superheroes are people who, because they've experienced bad things in their lives want to try and help others.

And anti-heroes just make me sick. They're basically good or bad, depending on the situation. Which is, why your comment about being drawn to them, while saying that "true" superheroes represent what's good and bad with the world, irks me. Anti-heroes, to me represent what's wrong with the world. They have no moral center, and they're just basically in it for themselves. And you can never tell whose side they're going to be on in a fight.

I also disagree with the "evil is just another point of view" comment , but I'm not gonna get into that here.

@RorrKonn
You can say that again, I think women know it's in their best interest to understand men so that they can play with our minds, which is ultimately to their own advantage.  I mean think about it, everything from the assets they have to the way they walk is just a tease.  And as if there weren't enough, they have the internet now, so they can read about Man's most twisted fantasies and delve even deeper into our minds!  This in turn allows them to perfect their teasing all the more, which in turn allowes them to emotionally extract more "ManBrain-Info" from us!

I think they're the human equivalent of a mind probe :-D

@Moriador
Ah right, you must be talking about Don Stuefloten (dnstuefloten) and his "Hag" movie.  Yes, I love his stuff big-time, it's just one of those things that clicked with me immediately.  He's the sort of person that could do no wrong, and by that I mean it wouldn't matter how good or bad a peice of work was, it would still appeal because he puts surreal imagery to surreal sound, and adds a story in a way I like.  I wasn't joking about those little Vignettes he did, they're the most memorable things I've seen in a long time - they just work :-)

That said, it's interesting you classify his work as "Erotic Horror".  I watched all Vignettes, one directly after the other so that it plays as a complete movie, but for me there was no Horror aspect in it.  Even the rape element of it, I can't put it under Horror because to me it felt like she wanted it and even got a kick out of being forewarned about it, like the very thought of it pleases her.  For that reason, I think it would fall under 'Surreal Erotica' rather than Erotic Horror (for me anyway).

@Shane
I can see why you would like a complete room decorated in Pollock's splatter art, it would look pretty unique, but I don't get why you think he's any better than Royo or Vallejo.  You'd no doubt like a Pollock on your wall because you like the way it looks, and I understand that, but I don't get how he differs from what Royo and Vallejo produce in that respect.  If you put a Pollock on your wall, then isn't that just "Eye Candy" too?

The other thing, and I giggled a bit when I read it, is that you see the Royo and Vellejo stuff as "art for little boys to drool over".  That's even harder to grap because it suggests that when those little boys become men, that they'll lose interest in fantasy females.  Nothing could be further from the truth, I think the interest in Fantasy Women only gets stronger as a person gets older, has for me anyway - lol

• When you're young, you see and you want, but you can't have, you have no chance.
• When you mature you have the best chance of getting it for real, so you go for it given half the chance.
• When you're old, you left it too late if you didn't get it for real when you had the chance.

But the thing is, what's common to all those age groups, surely, is the want for it?  I'm roughly the same age as you are, and honestly, I get no less enjoyment out of those types of things now than I did when I were a kid.  In fact, I get more enjoyment out of them now because I understand elements of them that didn't really click before.  I do agree about it being highly commercialised, but then again, guess why it's highly commercial?

It's what people want to see, kinda like how the Poser Marketplace looks with all the highly sexual elements to it, it's what people want.

@Primorge
Hah! ;-)

@Clarkie
Again, I'm probably very shallow in most peoples eyes (something that will never bother me), but the only thing I like about the Superheroines thing is the images of the women looking hot.  I have read through fantasy comics online, but the only time I do that is if the subject is either really odd, or in some way captivating right from the beginning.

And when it comes to those Good Versus Evil discussions, well, I almost always laugh to myself because to me, the worshippers of "what is good" are often a bunch of hypocrites.  If ever you come across such a discussion, one of the best things you can do is point them to the play I've attached to this post.  It will literally drive them mad because after watching it, they suddenly realise how hypocritical the whole discussion is.  This play was banned ourtight by the BBC before they even got a chance to air it.  There's a lot of theories floating around as to why it was banned, but in my opinion it was banned for one very simple reason:

Because out of Evil came good, therefore the Play could therefore be seen as Promotion of Evil, and we can't have that, can we :-D

This is the original and best, it's about a husband and wife who's life revolves around caring for their "vegetable" daugher at home.  Then a man comes along, he's actually the Devil dressed as a repectable man, but he's the perfect conman and lies his way into the home of the couple so that he can have access to their diabled daughter.  With her parents out of the way, he starts taking sexual advantage of her as she's unable to defend herself or even say anything about it.  Disgusting, eh?

Sure, but watch the play, and you'll see why the hypocrites finally met their match ;-)

This play was written by one of our top playwrights, the highly respected Dennis Potter, so it's very cleverly written .  And although it got banned outright, it eventually got aired many years later and I for one am extremely glad it did.  I've seen this a few times now and it never fails to give that ultra-rare satisfaction of knowing that there's not a single hypocrite out there, that will be able to defend "Good in the face of Evil" after seeing it - and that is the reason it's so powerful.  I honestly don't think the hypocrites could care less that the girl was getting raped big-time in this instance, that's just a front, I think all they really cared about was that it proved that Evil can be good, and that, in my opinion, is why it got banned and remained banned for such a long time.

If you find the time, watch this and ask yourself, did the Devil to good or bad?
This is the best thing out there to make people question it, and after seeing it, that question is a lot harder for some than they could ever imagine ;-)

Anyway, crap, I'm rambling on again, so just to get you in the mood, here's a quote direct from the play, it's a message from Devil himself:

Now the time has come to see
What will happen twixt you and me
You'll find the Devil is hard to beat
You're at his mercy, my little sweet

Yeah I know, it sounds like one of Roxie's poems :-D

@Clarke: I would make it much longer but I don't really feel like posting all that in a public forum. The basics are, superheros are always predictable. Superman never dies, and the good guy always wins. It's the same story being told over and over and over, making everything inbetween pointless. It's boring. Antiheroes are more believable, because they are unpredictable and are usually only in it for themselves, just like real people. There is no such thing as true altruism, as every action, no matter how insignificant or massive, happens without at least some shred of selfishness. Because people are selfish and ultimately self-serving, no matter who they are or what they're doing, simply because they believe this or that needs to happen, so they do it in order to fulfill their beliefs, thus making it a selfish act. Otherwise they would be indifferent to it and do nothing but go about their way as though nothing ever happened. Even superman is selfish. For once I'd like to see Lex Luther win and save the world from itself by completely obliterating it, but that will never happen, because the fans need a savior in order to feel good about themselves and give them that hope for the light at the end of the tunnel. I see Superman as a captor, not a savior, therefore I don't call it art. But, we're all entitled to our own opinions. Nothing is ever really right or wrong, just different. 

@Pumeco: I prefer art that makes me think about life, death, pain, suffering, the illusion of happiness, the human condition, that sort of thing. T&A doesn't appeal to me. Never has. It's superficial and boring. I didn't hang that kind of art on my walls when I was a kid, so why would I do it now? If I want to look at naked women I'll buy a copy of playboy, or save my money and just google it. The only female art I have is McFarlane's Red Ridinghood, with her cutting her grandmother out of the wolve's belly. The rest is demons, gargoyles, a half dozen iterations of Spawn, some dragons, a few giants and such. And frogs. I love frogs. 

@Shane
Believe it or not, the only nude female I've ever had on my wall was a super-sized poster called "Nasstasja Kinski and the Serpent" - by Richard Avedon.

It's a long story, but basically I never owned it even when it was on my wall.  It came to me in a massive frame with damaged glass (I promised to clean the print for the owner).  It ended up on my wall for a long time until the owner collected it.  I thought it looked absolutely amazing, and when the time came to hand it back, I had such a hard time finding another copy that I eventually gave up.  I tried so hard that I eventually spoke to the poster publisher who said they do have an archived copy left, but I can't have it as they always hang on to the last one.  I still love it to this day, and no doubt I could find one on eBay (which I didn't have back then).  I'll definitely be buying one when I have my own place.  You have to believe me, the supersized version of that print looks absolutely incredible when you see it for real, it's a very different experience to seeing it normal size or on the screen.

But anyway, out of curiosity now, do you see T&A for little boys to drool over, or do you see an artistic nude shot by a competent photographer?
Either way, I bet it's way more classy than the sort of thing you thought I'd have on my wall, right? :-D

Turns out the original is pretty sought after too :

And just to annoy you, Shane, that's the grown-ups version above, but due to your dislikle of erotica for the wall, here's the "little boys" version :-P

Now admit it, you didn't picture me having something as classy as "Nasstasja Kinski and the Serpent" hanging on my wall, did you?  :-D
Ok, don't answer that :-P

Nice photo. I wouldn't hang it on my wall, simply due to its religious symbolism, and the phallic worshiping nature of it. A photo like that can only have one of those two messages behind it, if not both. Why aren't her legs in the shot? Removing the feet of the woman so that she can't stand on her own, always being conquered by the phallus that lies on top of her. Interesting how the artist's unspoken messages can come through that way, intentional or not. 

No, I'm not surprised in the least that you would hang that on your wall and be proud of it. 

I'd much rather have the lego version for its sarcasm. At least she has feet.  ;)

Well once we where told we where a bunch of long haired white trash tattooed hippies that belong out in the woods some where.LOL.We took it as a complement. 

I never take nothing seriously .like the saying goes "don't take life so serious ,no one gets out a live".

what hangs on my walls ?

evel knievel,batman,kiss ,nazareth album covers n posters, farrah fawcett ,cheryl ladd, terminator ,transformers  ,royo ,boris ,skulls ,demonds, & hot nude girls.to name a few .

yes I know I'm not sophisticated and belong out in the woods some where. ;) 

The meaning of life to me is "have fun." while ya here. 

 kiss destroyer ,love gun .nazareth no mean city .iron maiden killers album covers where influential in becoming a Artist.

 

 

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The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

@Shane
Well I'll not pretend I don't realise you're being witty and sarcastic, but actually, you mentioned something interesting I wasn't aware of.

I can see the phallic aspect of it, but I can't see any reason why anyone would have a problem with that, or why they wouldn't be proud to put it on their wall because of it.  Why wouldn't a woman worship such things?  - I don't see anything wrong in that.  However, not surprisingly, any religious aspect of it has totally flew over my head.  I've said before I have no interest in religion, so there's likely millions of things I see and cannot see any symbolism in it.

But I'm genuinely interested in know what you are referring to there regards the religious thing and what it has to do with cropping the feet.  Before you answer that though, something you're probably not aware of, is that the snake was actually her idea (or so I hear), not that of the photographer.

@RorrKonn
Your place sounds like it has walls of sheer awesomeness, and I have to say, I'd rather look at your walls covered with Retro Babes (my favourite subject), Skulls, and Hot Nudes - than Shane's Splatter-Art and Frogs :-P

Unless Shane is pulling our legs and actually has a bunch of smoking-hot French nudes on his walls, maybe that's what he meant by Frogs :-)

No honestly I wasn't trying to be witty or sarcastic. You asked what I see in the image so I was telling you what I see.

I know that, but I'm curious what's religious about it; you said it's a good photo but you wouldn't have it on your wall because of the religious element.
Obviously I'm curious now, what's the religious element of it?

I get how you see a restraint thing, that the Serpent might be in control there, but honestly, looking at it I got the opposite.  To me it looks as if she absolutely adores the Serpent, like it's her pet and is happy to be there with it (and let's not forget, the Serpent was her idea).  Top me the result just looks really elegant.  I did think to myself, the first time I saw it, that it was strange to crop the feet like he did, but I just put that down to general composition, that it would have been good to include the feet but the composition would suffer if he had - and never thought more of it.

But even if, like you said, the missing feet is representative of restraint so that she cannot escape the Serpent, then so what because restraint and the general image of women effectively being the 'Damsel in Distress' is a staple of good Erotica, always has been - its the reason BDSM is such a popular adult passtime - it's control and restraint.  So it's a big 'so what' on the feet cropping thing, but as it'll eventually be working it's way back onto my wall someday, I really would love to know what religious symbolism there is in the image, if nothing else, just so that I know more about it.  I really am very curious about that.

Eve and the serpent in the garden of Eden. The creation myth. The birth of sin. come on, you don't have to know religion to know that story, it's pretty much universal and almost always the inspiration behind photos and paintings like that. Either that or the phallic symbolism of the snake and the woman worshiping it - symbolizing male dominion over the female, which is why a lot of females would be offended by it. Or I'd say put off by it. It's a pretty common theme so it's not like it's something they've never seen before. I don't know much of anything about bdsm or the rules of erotica and all that so I don't see that in the photo. It's not an erotic photo to me, but whatever. 

It's not an erotic photo to me either, I like it because it looks elegant, look how Mr Snake flows in harmony with the shape of her body :-)

But I've never, not even in school, read the story about Adam and Eve or whatever, and I didn't even know a snake was involved, but now that I hear it was, perhaps I missed out on a really kinky story I might have enjoyed!  I'm pretty sure you'll think I'm pulling your leg here (but I'm not) when I tell you that the only thing I know about "Adam and Eve" is what I've picked up by overhearing stuff over time, and I've sort of pieced it all together as best I can.

Here is what I thought Adam and Eve was about:  Basically, there was a man and a woman who used to walk around nude, but Eve noticed that Adam was paying far too much attention to her private parts, so she looked for something to cover herself up and she found a fig leaf of something.  Understandably, Adam got a bit annoyed about the situation so I just assume he did the same to get his own back on Eve, and that's why when we see a picture of Adam and Eve, they always have a fig leaf covering their love equipment.

That's pretty much it, that's all I know (or rather guessed).  Other than that, I think the basic story is that eventually, they couldn't resist each other any longer and the fig leaves just had to go.  This resulted in some passion which I assume is what lead to the rest of the world being born?  I don't know, I honestly don't, and like I said, Mr Snake is a new one on me - he's a sly one!  The only thing I can say to that is if Eve looked anything like Nastassja, I'm guessing Mr Snake had one hell of a good time assuming Mr Snake was involved in the way I think you're suggesting he was involved.

What you might find even harder to believe than my guess on the whole Adam and Eve story, is that actually, I didn't even know it had anything to do with religion.  I actually thought it was a Mythical Fairitale or something, kinda like Unicorns and stuff like that!

Anyway, you're way too prudish for a guy, Shane.  I honestly don't think you could care less about whether women would get offended by an image where a women is being dominated, I think you're just playing the good guy because you're a mod here (which is fine).  But there's nothing wrong with the domination of women.  It's been proven time and time again that despite societies morals, most women love being dominated as much as most men love to dominate them.  It's just one of those things that society finds hard to accept in the general scheme of things despite the overwhelming amount of research that was done about it.  And why am I telling you this?

Because evey time you act like you care about whether women would find such an image offensive (and even if you genuinely do), I'm guessing most of them are secretly laughing at such comments even though most would never admit it.  Of course, most women only admit it anonymously in surveys, which never fails to end in the same result, that most women love it.

 See, that's exactly why I don't like abstract paintings. Hidden meanings like religious symbolism, which to be honest, I never would have thought of it you hadn't said anything, or the feet cropping thing so she can't escape.

BTW, I'm not female so I'm not offended by it, but I would never put it on my wall either because of the "ick" factor. I just plain hate snakes, which I suppose Shane would see as me having homophobic tendencies or something because of the phallus symbolism. 

How to get off track. LOL.

Hey, back on track; How s the tablet doing?

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Tony has a point, and I just thought, maybe Clarkie could draw Nastassja Kinski and the Serpent as an attempt to overcome his fear of Mr Snake :-D
It would also count as him not breaking tradition, because it would involve drawing a babe as well, and Nastassja is definitely a babe!

Go on Clarkie, be a sport, even if it comes out hilarious, so what, laughing is good for you :-)

You can google the myth and figure out the role of the snake on your own. 

I'm not a prude. Not by a long shot. And honestly I don't really care who is offended by what. Just because I point it out doesn't mean I'm offended by it. You asked me what I saw so I told you what I saw. It's symbolism. It's why art exists in the first place. I just don't get excited over looking at naked bodies like you do. I study anatomy. I look at naked bodies all day long, of all different shapes sizes, colors, genders, ages, dead, alive, with skin, without skin, etc. It's like looking at furniture to me. My days of getting excited over naked people are long gone. I know what they look like on the inside, so that's really all I see anymore. For wall art I like darker more macabre things, or sarcasm, or things that violate the senses.

I'd much rather hang this on my wall than your snake girl. It's far more interesting to me, and I love his music so I can connect to it on a deeper level. 

How to get off track. LOL.

Hey, back on track; How s the tablet doing?

Tablet's fine, although admittedly I haven't used it as much as I had thought. Still getting used to it, but learning.

@Shane
I like the gritty surreal stuff too, love it, but you totally missed the point of why I said what I said.

It's what you said to RorrKonn that I thought was so ridiculous it just had to be debated, at least a little bit.  It was that you effectively painted almost the entire male population as 'horny little boys' because they drool over the female form.  I posted the snake girl to show you just how far off your comment can be.  Yes, I get excited by a naked female like any other normal man would, but that doesn't mean I have a bunch of naked women on my wall.  There was only that one, and right now, there are none.  And even when there was only the one, it's not something I got excited about sexually, I just like the image, like I said, to me it's a very elegant looking piece of work.

The other aspect of it was, even if there was a bunch of naked women on our walls and we got excited by them, there's nothing odd about that, it's not something that is the domain of little boys as you put it, and therefore, it's not something you grow out of in adulthood.  I've seen (and love) all sorts of strange art, I've seen stuff that would no doubt make a lot of people cringe, but of course there are things that are and aren't suitable for a wall.

BTW, I suppose I'd better read the Adam and Eve story, I'm really curious about it since you mentioned the snake.
Will have to see what it's all about as long as it's free and online, I'm not buying it.

I stand by what I said. That's how I see it. And like I said that's why that stuff exists in video games, whether you agree with the reasoning or not. And obviously what I said was true or it wouldn't sell so many video games and comic books. Don't get upset just because it's pointed out. I don't like that you suggest that guys who don't find that sort of art appealing are not normal, but whatever. This debate is pointless. I feel like I'm losing IQ points letting it carry on. 

@Shane
Honestly, I'm not trying to be awkward but you can be very hypocritical at times you know, and no, you're not losing IQ points by dabating it, you only lose IQ points by calling an end to something if you don't like the responses.

Anyway, I found the story online easy enough, but it's got something to do with the Bible, and I'm sorry, no offence intended but I'm not reading all that religious stuff.  In my defence, I did give it a try, I at least read the opening part to Adam and Eve and I discovered pretty quick that the Snake is the Devil, which is cool.  But then it gets boring and nothing happens.  If anyone knows what chapter the Devil Snake actually does something, please let me know and I'll still check it out, but like I said, I just cannot read through religious works.

On the plus side, due to your refusal to explain Mr Devil Snake to me, and not being one to give-up easily, I thought I'd take a shortcut.  I typed "Adam and Eve Snake" into Google Images hoping it would at least give me a clue as to the 'role' of Mr Devil Snake, what he's all about etc.  It resulted in me coming across an amazingly erotic image as a result, but sadly, I'm not sure it's something Renderosity would allow to be displayed on the forum, and I'm worried Clarkie might have nightmares if he sees what Mr Devil Snake gets up to behind locked doors :-D

Not posting the image here, but here's the link if anyone wants to see; only click on it if you want to see Mr Devil Snake preparing to do what he does best!
NSFW WARNING - Click here for Mr Devil Snake

Now that, in all honesty, is a piece of art I would definitely hang on my wall (no kidding), the lucky Devil, he gets all the best jobs, I've always said so!

You said you like art with meaning and depth, and it surely has that by the apple-cart load, so I wonder what an erotic image such as that means to you, is it good enough for your wall, and is it good enough to come across as more than nudity?

@EClark -- You say true art must communicate something. I agree. If its only point is that it looks nice, the it's not art, it's design, essentially, wallpaper.

But why privilege certain "messages" over others? Why is narrative more worthwhile than philosophy or aesthetics?

Take Mark Rothko, for example. When you see his paintings in a museum, they are enormous, and if they are hung the way he wanted them to be viewed, they are in a tight space where you are forced to view them close up and not from a distance. You are forced to look at the brush strokes and the texture, to move you head to see the whole canvas. What does this mean? Well, if you're a post-modernist, it means whatever it means to you. To me, he is communicating the simple power of COLOR and COMPOSITION and PLACEMENT of art. The way certain color combinations and compositions have, all by themselves, a striking effect. Additionally, how the brush strokes themselves create a composition within even a single color. How you can have a very static composition of rectangles that, when viewed up close, appears very dynamic and unstable because of the texture of the paint.

What could be more basic to art than color and composition and texture? What could be more important to the artist than understanding and knowing the way these extremely fundamental aspects of vision affect the human psyche? If you don't bother to think about these things -- if you're happy to go with the typical 9 box grid rule for composition because you were told that's what you should do -- what does that say about you as an artist? 

@Shane -- I love your comments on the Kinsky photo. But, I hate to tell you, you're not normal (you actually think about what you see -- and apparently that's just weird ;) ) On the other hand, it does make you very interesting to listen to. Who the hell wants to be "normal" anyway? (I do understand your point, though. The idea that being anything other than boringly emptyheaded is somehow deviant is crazy. It used to be that women were the ones confronted with this idea that we weren't supposed to be overly intellectual, but now it seems to be swinging the other way, and men are supposed to be big dumb brutes who do very little besides unthinkingly following some basic -- and supposedly uniform -- animal instincts. How sad that people demand so much mindless conformity from others.)

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Pumeco, all I have to say about that image is -- BORING. The whole snake, women, devil thing has been soooo overdone. It's cliche to the max. Sheesh. Don't people have any new ideas?

PS -- Why would women think snakes are erotic? They'd make terrible and truly unsexy phalluses -- that is, unless you think men are fundamentally flaccid creatures, all talk and slithering, but no ability to actually close the deal, so to speak. LOL. And that's hardly much of a turn on. (I get why this is a great metaphor for the Devil -- but if you're not interested in the religious symbolism, then the whole thing makes no sense at all. You could just as well photograph a woman's arse with a potato and a tarantula.)

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

"...But, I hate to tell you, you're not normal (you actually think about what you see -- and apparently that's just weird ;)"

But your comment is rude because it suggests that those he was debating it with don't think about their art, and that's just not true.  Not to point out the obvious here, but the piece you're all debating but seemingly mocking too, is the one that caused the most discussion, it's the one I had on my wall.

You see the irony?

The way Shane speaks about such things is that it's just stuff for horny little boys to drool over, like there is no artistic value in it for an adult.  So far, the artistic value in it is so high that a mere copy of that image sold for over 75.000 dollars in auction, that's just a copy, not the original negative, so it's not as if the purchaser intends to make a quick buck selling copies of it to hormone-filled teenagers, is it?

You don't half talk some nonsense sometimes, hah, and I tell you what, if Shane ever comes across the supersized version of that image in a gallery somewhere, he'll feel the real reason why I like it, and I'm guessing he'll feel pretty idiotic for what he said.  Standing in front of it is a totally differerent thing to seeing it on the screen.  The large version looks good, but the supersized version is something else, it's really impressive.  Bottom line is, it's an elegant peice of work that has proven (even here) that it can spark a discussion; Shane's comment about such things is way off, and your supporting his comments is equally ridiculous!

Right, time for tea and a bloody good sulk now ... peasants!

"Pumeco, all I have to say about that image is -- BORING. The whole snake, women, devil thing has been soooo overdone. It's cliche to the max. Sheesh. Don't people have any new ideas?"

Don't knock it.  Out of curiosity I just cropped the crap off the bottom and converted it to Black and White, looks every bit as good as I thought it would.

"Why would women think snakes are erotic?"

Presumably for the same reason a man would, but to be honest, I don't care whether a woman finds it erotic because an image like that is obviously created to appeal to the male of our species, not the female.  It's the power of suggestion that makes having a snake in the same image as a nude woman, erotic, it's not the snake itself that is erotic.

"I get why this is a great metaphor for the Devil -- but if you're not interested in the religious symbolism, then the whole thing makes no sense at all."

Nonsense, how can something I don't know about have any meaning to me in the first place?  And why would such an image have no interest to me just because I don't understand why some religion has taken it upon themselves to make Mr Devil Snake symbolic of something?  Even now, I still don't see any religious symbolism in it, so tell me, what's religious about it, cause the only thing I can imagine is that maybe, what is on Mr Devil Snake's mind, is somehow frowned upon by a religion?

Is that it?

If that's all it is, then it's not even religious symbolism.  Such things cannot be considered religious just because some religion doesn't like it.  As far as I'm concerned (and I'm not religious), Mr Devil Snake has his head well and truly screwed-on.  Whatever he's doing, it's getting him a lot more attention from the ladies than I ever get.  The only thing Mr Devil Snake "symbolises" to me, is a clever bastard - I want his phone number - we need to chat - I need to know his secret - I want to see his little Red book of Funtime Girls.

I would be just as within my right to claim Mr Devil Snake as a symbolism of "Luck with the Ladies" as some religion would be to claim him as a religious symbol.  I would like to know why it's considered a religious symbol, but I'm pretty sure, even before I find out, that the reason will be laughable to say the least.  I couldn't care less about religion, so religious symbolism is no such thing to me, I'm not religious, and religious symbolism should only have meaning to those that are religious.

All I know is, put Mr Devil Snake in the same image as a naked woman, and he symbolises only one thing, it has nothing to do with religion, and the only thing I'd be "worshipping" are the assets in the image, not a God ;-)

Pumeco, items that involve celebrities sell for silly amounts of money, and it has little bearing on the artistic value of the item. Britney Spears' spat out some chewing gum, and it sold at auction for $14,000.

Shane isn't completely correct. There's some artistic merit to the photo -- in that it was taken by someone who understands photography.  It's not just someone's iPhone selfie on Instagram. Of course, his deconstruction of the meaning of the photo is compelling precisely because the elements he points out were purposeful and intentional. However, I find it hard to disagree with his main point that the true purpose of the photo is to turn its viewers on. And beyond that, there's very little there. It's aesthetically more pleasing than your typical internet porn, but in the end, that's all it's got. It's just a big cliche. Cliche's aren't art. They're a lazy way to bypass the use of the frontal lobes by doing something that's been done over and over and over again already.

Again, unless you really believe that whole Facebook philosophy, just because you like something doesn't make it good. 

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

One of the things he points out are the feet (or rather lack of), and he points out that it represents her not being able to escape the Serpent, right?

Thing is, if that's true (and please, bear in mind I'm not saying it isn't), then for me the photographer failed on that one because even after it being pointed out to me, I just don't get that from the photo, to me it just doesn't look as if it's been cropped for that reason.  So if it's true, the photographer not only failed there, but failed badly, cause you know me by now, if there was even a hint of it meaning she was powerless to do anything, that would make it erotic for me.

So you see, the funny thing is, I would actually prefer it if I could see that in the image, but I just can't.  I mean I asked about what feet has to do with it, but wasn't given any link to explain where that theory even came from.  Same with the religious thing, what's the big secret?

Tell me, dammit :-D

There's no "link" to give you that will explain how to see beneath the surface of things. That's something you get from being educated. And I don't mean formally educated, necessarily. I just mean educated in the sense that of having a keen desire to know about things and not automatically dismissing them because you don't agree with them, like them, believe them, or understand them.

Reading your forum posts is like... 

"I like this because it's got a babe in it. A sexy babe. I like sexy babes because I'm a heterosexual male. So I like women, right? Women. Sexy women. Because I'm not gay. And I have pictures of sexy babes on my wall because, I'm a heterosexual male. And straight men like sexy women. And this is sexy. Therefore I like it, and it's good because I am definitely not gay."

Dude, we get it. You find women attractive. Why you feel compelled to point this out in almost every single discussion at some point is beyond me. All I know is that more you harp on the subject, the more it seems like you're desperately trying to prove something and the less convincing you sound.

Thing is, no one cares who or what you find sexually attractive.  It's the 21st century. :D  It's okay to be straight or gay or bi or even a bit unsure. Really.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Some comments on the current off topic.

Shane, you might look into the symbolism of reptiles and religion, it goes back a lot further than most think, and the serpent representing evil is a fairly modern interpretation.  Look for any interpretation from the devil to a god, from the bringer of death to the giver of life, and you'll probably find it somewhere in antiquity. Each one equal in validity to the current, "evil". 

I'm somewhat familiar with the photo, and of Avedon.   Avedon had a pretty wide field that he played with in his art photos, some of which may shock people, but that's how it is.

Pumeco:"So if it's true, the photographer not only failed there, but failed badly, cause you know me by now, if there was even a hint of it meaning she was powerless to do anything, that would make it erotic for me."  S/M and bondage may be more to your liking then, but isn't liable to win you any favor with normal ladies.  There is nothing erotic about a helpless woman, or as you say, powerless.  In your mind, it would convey dominance over her, rather than what is more attractive. I don't like anything that portrays the woman as the subject, object, goal or victim, I'd rather see her as a participant of her own free will.

It's a nice photo, nicely posed, well exposed, technically correct, but the epitome of photography?  Naah.  Good nevertheless, but nothing I'd spend any money on.  My reaction, she's got guts, as those things are neither harmless, sluggish, or predictable.  No symbolism in the cropping, just necessary to the subject and format.

Doric

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

 

@Doric: I didn't say it represented evil. I said it's a phallic symbol, representing male dominance. And yes it also represents a lot of other things, depending on the context in which it's being used. For this particular photo, the eve and the serpent is what stands out the most. A common theme and what most people, at least in the western world, relate the serpent to today. 

Unless it's being used in this symbol, where it then represents medical and healing, iterations of which date back to Sumer, the oldest culture we have any real knowledge of today.

Of course Clovis is far older than Sumer, and there are fragments of cultures even older than Clovis, but we don't know what their belief systems or symbolisms were. 

No, Moriador, "uneducated" is something you just demonstrated perfectly.  Those types of discussions (including the one you just made up) come about whenever hypocritical nonsense is spouted with no way to back it up.  Just like Shane is doing and just like you are doing.  You "get" nothing about me, and the only reason you can't show me anything regards the feet, is because it's nonsense, likely something he plucked out of thin air to look clever - and something you fell for without even looking into it.

"Educated" is knowing that the work of Vallejo is superior on every level to that ... um ... stuff ... Pollock produces (stuff I reckon a blindfolded chimp could pull-off).  I'm guessing the reason he gave up trying to name the stuff is because there's not really much you can give the same peice of crap time and time again, is there?

And "Educated" is being able to tell the difference between the "Classy" work Avedon produced and something "tacky" designed to "turn you on".  I think most people can see that the Avedon image with the Serpent is designed to be elegant and aesthetically pleasing, not erotic or pornographic, and I'm pretty sure our friend, Mr Devil Snake, wasn't posed as perfectly as that if all Avedon intended was to "turn on" a bunch of teens.  Those things are going to be obvious to most people (excluding yourself and Shane I mean).  What you need to realise is that something intended to be commercial, doesn't mean it's designed to turn people on - even if it happens to do so - and for me, it doesn't - as I already pointed out.

Don't try to belittle people just because you're out of your depth, and get over the fact that some of us couldn't care less about whether what is said is what people want to hear.  I prefer to say the facts rather than pull nonsense out of thin air, and I wonlt be changing the way I discuss thing no matter how you interpret it.  You just did what most people do when they can't explain themselves, you tried to find something that actually, is of your own imagination and switch the situation.  You seem to forget why those "discussions" you speak of, pop-up in the first place, they're usually brought about by the hypocricy I see and hear, and I seem to recall that on the previous occasion it was caused by a simillar hypocricy:  women going around flashing their breasts, and tying themselves to a freaking fence in public is supposed to do something for their cause I suppose?

Why on earth you think I need to "tell people I find women attractive" is pretty hilarious, I'm a bloke, of course I do, but you're clearly not educated enough to understand why the discussions go the way they go - I can't help you there.  You could not have said a more childish thing than you just did.  Now, if you can manage it (and I doubt it), go and find something to back-up what Shane said (and you are happy to agree with) - or I'll just have to assume it's because it's nonsense and can't be backed-up.

If I'm out of order here then I'm sure glad I am, because like it or not, I'll stick to lusting after women, I'll stick to not believeing in anything religious whatsoever, and I'll stick to having an "Education" ample enough to tell me that anyone who would put a "Pollock" on his wall is not fit to comment on other artists work in the way he did.  Where I come from, Shane would likely have been stoned after a statement like that, and I think he'd have got even worse for suggesting that the art he referred to is for litte boys to get excited over.  Grow up, either one of those artists Shane dismissed as "little boys stuff" could do a "Pollock" with their bloody eyes closed, and so could I, so could you, and so could a blind-folded chimp with a couple of tubes of paint to splatter around.  Turn the situation around though, and I'm pretty sure Pollock couldn't produce what the other artists produced, even with his eyes wide open!  I mean there's deep and meaningful discussion, and then there's nonsense like has been posted here.

I'm off to bed now, and tomorrow will bring one thing for sure:
-You will not have backed-up this nonsense with any links to any facts whatsoever, because it's nonsense.

I never saw symbolism in the cropping of the feet, Clarkie never saw symbolism in the cropping of the feet either, and by his very admission, it's only the comment Shane made that put that apsect into his head.  Clarkie was right the first time, he never saw because there's nothing to see, there is no symbolic gesture in the cropping of the feet, and as you're into photography yourself (as I am), you should know that if it were a specific crop to the feet, he'd have to have cropped the image directly below the ankles (not knees) to successfully symbolise such a thing.  It's hardly surprising then, that I just don't see the symbolism, it's cause there isn't any other than the power of suggestion (something I tried educating Shane about earlier with it's link to BDSM) - AKA nothing to do with telling people I find women attractive sacasm intended.

Well goodnight then, it's getting late, and being a teenager and all, I'd really like to get a quick fapp in before I fall asleep.
Bloody hell, you know it's times like this I really wish I had that Avedon still hanging on the wall to help me along.

You realise how idiotic both your comments are now?
I hope so.

@Doric
Well I'm glad to see at least someone else doesn't see symbolism in the crop!

But yeah, it's a cool photo, it's something that needs to be seen for real to be appreciated fully though.  As for the ladies, I'm not even into BDSM in as far as I never get a chance to practice it, but I would rather have a girl into that stuff than not, because it's a very broad thing and I'm pretty sure that any female that isn't broad minded enough, would absolutely bore me to tears!

Anyway, I'd better shut-up otherwise Moriador will have another go at me for getting all sexual and stuff.

AmbientShade who's the musician with the wings ?

pumeco I've done a few snakeish dragons paintings. I want the apple on my wall ,it's killer.

know the name of the photographer ,model or person who owns the photo ? 

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The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

@RorrKonn
Sorry mate, I haven't a clue, I found it on Google Images after searching for "Adam and Eve Snake" - and just grabbed the photo from the results.
But I agree, it's killer that one :-P

And you know what, if you search Google Images for stuff like "Girl with Snake" or "Snake Babe" or stuff like that, the two best images I've found so far are indeed Avedon's Kinski Serpent, and the one with the Apple that you like.  Moriador suggests the subject is overdone, but I don't think it is because most of the attempts at those "Girl with Snake" images that crop up on Google, look really false or awkward - but those two don't.

Two images, same subject, and completely different with a completely different purpose, yet both images rock for their own reason ;-)

Oeps, Sorry,
I thought this was the Poser forum.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Yeah, listen Vilters, quit being a gatecrasher and get your arse over to Blender and start sculpting me a snake!!!
I want a snake and I want it fast, and make sure it's a male Devil Snake like in the photos!!!

I only want it as a pet, but I want a Devil Snake!!!

Later,
Roxie - Girl with Blade

Just two things, Roxie:
1 - No one is ever going to believe you only want him as a pet.
2 - I see you've taken over my avatar again, but as you look so deadly beautiful, I'll forgive you :-D

 

 

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Did you draw that, Tony?

 **pumeco **since where Artist ,that's not a problem

we can paint render anything are selfs we want on are walls :)

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Spoken like a true artist, RorrKonn ;-)

 My friend Mr Google found that LOL.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Pumykins, the reason it is not always possible to find a LINK is that all of human knowledge is, believe it or not, not on the web. A lot of knowledge is actually contained within these mystical objects that educated people know as BOOKS. Educated people actually even read them from time to time, and occasionally remember and pass on the mysterious wisdom contained within. Frequently, this takes place in venerated temples of knowledge known as SCHOOLS.

Alas, not every book has been scanned into Google's archives. However, I did a simple Google search and found this example in less than two minutes:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Jpm4x1bNw7kC&lpg=PA42&ots=J6bRdu-EMv&dq=meaning%20of%20images%20of%20women%20with%20feet%20cropped%20-%22crop%20circles%22&pg=PA42#v=onepage&q=meaning%20of%20images%20of%20women%20with%20feet%20cropped%20-%22crop%20circles%22&f=false

Pay attention to this:

"First, body cropping was seen as a form of depersonalization of the woman, and a form of detachment. They explained that the ultimate objectification of the female is to picture her headless and feetless -- unable to think and unable to move."

On page 43:

"Further, the woman in this particular ad cannot move, having no feet. Therefore, she is completely immobile and available, in a both a visual and a physical sense" 

This is standard deconstruction. Nothing strange or controversial about it. However, since a while back you demonstrated a curious inability to even understand the fundamental concept of objectification, I don't expect this to make much sense to you. :D 

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

PS -- Pumyluv, I'm not mad about your response to my post. Really, :) Moreover, getting upset is an understandable reaction to brutal honesty, which is why I am rarely that blunt. I did not intend to hurt your feelings with my post a couple of pages ago, though I can see how my words could have been hurtful even to someone who seems as invulnerable to criticism as you do. If they were -- if I upset you --, I apologize. :)

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

<3 <3 <3 

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

 

 

 

since I just got magna studio 5 and it's been ah since 1998 since I painted in the real wourld and never in CGI.

there's no meaning I just need to practice flesh,hair,cloth,clouds.

I didn't need feet or hands to practice and the pixel size of the paper is so small I have my doubts they would look very good anyways.

 

 ----

The meaning of cropping . do they ever talk about paper ,size pixel size etc etc.

did they ask the photographer why they cropped it the way they did.

are they just trying to figure out the best way to make a ad to sell me something I don't need.

a book on why we pay 200% taxes might be helpful to society.

 

I like this one also 

 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bVICDPIU5iU/TbIQZi3UDaI/AAAAAAAAEG0/qLKLkS9Mr8I/s1600/devon_aoki_nude_with_snake.jpg 

 

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

humans will be human and I over look them 99.9% of the time.

when some one got a hole church to email me about them thinking I was a devil worshiper cause of some of my paintings .

I just told them I'm not they might want to ask someone be for accusing someone and a few even still wanted to argue with me that I was.

lol humans. but they inspired me to make some of the most satanic painting ever done and they went over quite well .

so it all worked out for the best. 

I have made painting for churches also.

anyways a lot will have there opinion on Art some will be based of fact but most will be based only on there opinion.

might not agree but I'll try to understand another Artist opinion. but if there not even a Artist

then I don't get how they have a opinion about something they don't know anything about.

I don't have any opinion about how to do surgery or traveling to pluto. 

Thou after C4D & zBrush I think rocket science would be easy thou. lol it's a joke .

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

@Moriador
Hey, thanks for the giggle, and for trying to hide a reply in yet another insult.  Suggesting that I don't understand the objectification of women (or how it's done), is genuinley one of the most amusing things I ever heard in my life - and I really do me in my life!  Even more amusing is that I got an earful from Shane about it in a previous thread.  I pointed out quite happily that I objectify women, and I also pointed out why those who have a problem with it, are nothing less than hypocrites.

As for the insult (yet again), how many more times do I have to make it clear, I am not religious, so it's understandable that I'm not educated in religious symbolism.  Suggesting that I'm some uneducated idiot who doesn't know what a book is and doesn't read them, is insulting.  You're talking to someone who's never purchased an "E-BOOK" in his bloody life, I buy real books and use a library while most people nowadays are sucked into the "virtual book" bullshit.  I feel I'm having to say this quite often to you Moriador - but grow up.  I'm not educated enough to knit a sweater, either, but hey, as I'm not interested in knitting, I think I should be let off the hook on that one!

There's a lot of stuff I don't know because I've never had interest in it, and when I were a kid at school and the government wanted to force a whole heap of pointless "History Lessons" down my throat, my mate and I would give them the "big finger", disappear without permission, and do something much more worthwhile, like go into town, buy us a bag of chips, sit on a wall and rate the women that walked by.  There's a lot I don't know, but suggesting I don't understand the objectification of women, is an insult designed to provoke response.  Your own resposes tell a person like myself, someone who knows the things he does, that you're effictively a 'Vanilla Girl' and really shouldn't be talking about the deeper stuff and it's meanings.  I needed to explain to you that it's not the Snake that is erotic, it's the power of suggestion.  That was just basic stuff, so I shudder to think how much 'power of suggestion' and 'eroticism' you miss out on in other images!

Regrds the feet, thanks for the link.  You gain brownie points over Shane for actually posting something to back it up (which is all I was wanting in the first place), but you lose brownie points by being insulting about it.  Again, your insults are brought about by only one thing, you absolutely need to be able to look correct when you post something.  The problem is, the thing you seem quick to dismiss, is that I was more than happy for the cropped feet to represent her being helpless, did you miss that part?  Doric didn't, in fact being a guy he knew exactly what I meant and even pointed out that he doesn't like that sort of thing (which is fine).  He then went on to recommend what I'd need and he managed to do all that without being insulting about it.

Try that approach next time, Moriador.

So like I said, thanks for the info (and I'll read-up more about it because it interests me) but it still don't think it applies to that image.  I think it was cropped like that for aesthetic reasons because that image is strangely difficult to make look right unless the crop is bang-on with that one, there's not many ways you can crop that image and have it look balanced.  One other thing that should be pointed out is that the print of that image has been released in at least three crops that I know of, they're all different.  One is directly below the knees, the other two are along the shins, but none are below the ankles (AKA cropping the feet).  I realise you don't take notice of these things when I say them, but hopefully you'll take note this time: I would prefer the image to represent her being helpless because that would make the image erotic and I like eroticism in art, but I just don't get that from the image, not in the crop, and not in the the image itself.

@RorrKonn
Man, that's nice, she looks very seductive, love the pose as well!  Nice work on defining the edges this time, you've done a good job around the legs but even better around the cleavage, you have some nice highlighting going on as well, much better than on the previous one :-)

Love the girl at the link, a hottie, don't like the colour of the snake though.  But have you noticed how many images the Avodon photo has influenced?  Even the humourous one Moriador posted is influenced by it, we have everything from Lego figures to men having a go at it, surely the sign of a good peice of Art if it has so much influence, makes me all the more "proud to hang it on my wall" ;-)

But shhhhhhhhh, don't tell Moriador, she'll only see me having an "educated eye" for quality art, and we can't have that, I'm too uneducated for that :-D

Regards all that Hippie stuff and Devil Worshipping, lol, if I ever visit America I would love to meet you and buy you a beer, RorrKonn!  I think I'd have handled the situation with the Devil Worshipping a little differently though, I'd have had a lot more fun at their expense if the Church had come whining at me - and I'd have enjoyed doing so.  I'd find a forest area, hire a bunch of willing virgins (they must be virgins but I won't expalin why due to not being educted enough).  I'd build a fire and ask them to dance around it naked while worshipping Mr Devil Snake (me).  And when they come knocking and being all hypocritical about it, I'd just remind them that the only reason they're able to stand in front of me whining about it, is because their parents ultimately commited the same act as Mr Devil Snake did in the forest with his Virgins, only Mr Devil Snake had a heck of a lot more fun doing it.

But you know what I mean, you have to laugh at hypocrites, it's unfortunatley one of the few pleasures I get out of life at the moment.  I have my dad to thank for laughing at them and seeing right through them.  I think it all started in a bakery, I was just a kid and I was hanging out with my dad doing the shopping.  He bought something, pointed to it through the glass display and said:

• I'll have that one love, so she smiled and put it in the bag.
• He opened it, noticed it wasn't what he wanted after all, and asked for the one next to it instead.
• The woman replied "I'm sorry but I can't take it back now".
• My dad asked "Why Not?".
• She said "Because you've touched it with your hands".
• My dad replied "And what the hell did you use to put it in the bag then, your bloody feet?"

Needless to say, she changed it for him.  I was only young at the time but I remember it vividly, and I was educated enough even as a nipper to understood the smile on his face completely.

Anyway, here's another picture of Mr Devil Snake exploring yet another one of his women.  Posted for Roxie, I hope she isn't getting too impatient waiting for Vilters' Snake to arrive, she's never shut-up about it ever since she saw that one with the apple in it:

Painted this about 13 years ago, since we're on the subject and it's mutations...

http://i.imgur.com/0joVhKQ.jpg

Here's a detail. I consider this an inferior painting now, comparatively. But...

http://i.imgur.com/YEoYbsp.jpg

Neither links working for me, Primorge :-(

Would partake of the discussion itself, but I became jaded with these kind of merry-go-rounds long ago.

I will say, however, "who did this before Pollock?"

Well, maybe Max Ernst... but still.

Think about such a thing in the context of history.

Copy and paste into your browser, I just tested them. Working.

I can see it's not a clickable link, which is why I already pasted into my browser to go to the address, but like I said, it's not working, might be a DNS thing.
Anyway, regards "Who did this before Pollock?"

Well here's my guess, and although Mr Chimp has improved considerably since then, he's still not managed to pull-off a Royo or Vallejo:

I'm hoping the sarcasm will teach Shane not to champion "Pollock" in the same discussion he dismisses the work of "Royo" and "Vallejo".
I realise it won't make any difference to who likes what (and it's not meant to), but nevertheless, the contrast needed to be pointed out.

Pumeco, it's hilarious how you feel no compunction whatsoever about dishing out insults to just about every single member in these forums (who doesn't kiss your arse) over utterly trivial matters (such as which browser they use), but when someone gives you just a tiny bit of your own treatment, you go into an emotional meltdown.

I have a grasp of why you consistently behave this way because I've seen it many times. I used to think you were just putting on a show -- because no one could really be such a perfect caricature -- but now I actually believe that you really are suffering.

While I find your case interesting, your behavior has completely poisoned these forums, and for everyone else's sake I'm going to refrain from feeding you.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Pumeco, seriously, this is going a bit far. And your belligerent tone is unnecessary. You can disagree with someone without being an ass about it. Moriador got a bit out of line too but she apologized in a later post. So how about tone down the hostility if you want to keep discussing this. Sarcasm isn't the same as being insulting, which you have been at multiple points. If you feel like Moriador or someone else has insulted you then you can say so and state your case without being confrontational. 

 Yes this is the Poser forum, but discussions on art and art-related things should be allowed, since we're all supposed to be artists on some level. Technically this thread has been completely derailed, but it was pretty much over with before the derailing happened anyway. There's only so much that can be said about purchasing pen tablets. 

As for the objectification thing, I still don't think you really get it, or more specifically, I don't think you get the implications from it and the negativity that surrounds it, all the bad things that it's caused and why it's not seen as something that should really be acceptable by a lot of people. Kind of like a snow-ball affect. But some of it is so common-place now that many people don't even think about it, because they see examples of it every day, everywhere they look, from magazines to tv to billboards, so they're desensitized to it, which is what that article that Moriador linked to was talking about. Being desensitized to an issue doesn't make the issue any less problematic. If anything it could, and often does, make it a whole lot worse. When a person is objectified, they are no longer seen as a person, but an object - something without thought or feeling, that can be treated like property and abused as its owner sees fit. People who deliberately objectify other people are often seen as narcissists and sociopaths, and very often they are exactly that, and their actions tend to lead to much worse things down the road. So when you proudly boast that you objectify women, that's not going to sit very well with others, especially not a woman. It's entirely different in the case of a bdsm type of relationship, between two (or more) adults where that sort of thing is consensual on both sides, and I think that is what you're confusing, when you brought up the point about how "most women like it according to such-n-such research" (which you didn't even bother to provide any source info for, yet were adamant that a differing view's sourcing be done). There may or may not be an element of truth to that, but again it has to be consensual, or it changes the game entirely. I highly doubt that in today's world 'most' women like being treated like or seen as property, by anybody other than themselves. 

And in terms of the religious symbolism, those were two entirely separate aspects that you've somehow combined into one, I can only assume because you misunderstood what I was saying. 

It's obvious you're not an art major. If you were you would recognize the contributions to the art world that artists like Pollock, Van Gogh, Picasso, etc, have made to the world, and how drastically different, and limited, art would be today had those - and many others like them - not done what they were doing in their day. You don't have to like their work to be able to appreciate what they did or why they did it. Pollock, in the mid 20th century, happened to be seen as one of the greatest artists of his time, partly because he refused to conform to what was expected of him. He hated conformity and deliberately looked for ways to create art without traditional tools or methods. He hated using paint brushes because that's what was expected, just for example. He also had a very caustic personality and was extremely anti-social, and his fame just made him that much more anti-social and withrawn. And no, you would not be able to create the kinds of work he created. Only someone who is not familiar with his work and has no respect for it would say that. There have been a few who have tried, and none of them went anywhere with it. They were seen as copycats and wanna-be's who couldn't come up with their own idea or style and definitely didn't have anywhere close to the same technique. These are not poster board sized paintings mind you. Many are massive, room-sized pieces, that when you're standing in front of one, they envelop you and its all you can see. What I see when I look at one, it's hard to explain. Try laying in the grass on a clear night in complete darkness and staring up at the cosmos and see what you see. That's about as close a description as I can get. 

So a lot of these points that I brought up in previous posts probably aren't going to mean much to you. I didn't say the Avedon image was commercial art. I didn't even say that it was tacky. Common and way overdone yes. In the 1970s and 80s naked girls with snakes was not exactly an original idea. I pointed out the different symbolisms and connotations that are in it. It's not my fault that you don't know what various symbolisms are. Vallejo and Royo are commercial art and I said they're good at what they do, but it doesn't make them any less commercial, and it doesn't put any more depth or meaning into their work. They've done nothing new. Frazetta did that - he opened that door for them, they're just imitating it. Most of their work is designed for exactly the reason I said it's designed for - video games and comic books, and what is the primary demographic that video games and comic books are marketed to? Adolescent males. And all 3 of them owe a tip of their hats to artists like Picasso and Van Gogh and many others, for having the balls to break conformity and paint things that were considered obscene in their days. Otherwise we all might still be looking at religious paintings and bunny rabbits and fields of flowers, which were about the only things considered kosher back then and didn't get labeled taboo. Yeah that's a bit of an exaggeration but you get the point. I would think that someone such as yourself who claims to be such a rebel against the man, would have more appreciation for those artists for doing what they did, so that you can look at your pretty naked girls with snakes today. Because that sort of art didn't just come about one day because some guy with a camera or a paintbrush decided he was going to be brazen - it took a number of decades to evolve. 

As for symbolism and all that, If you had any idea the kinds of symbolism and hidden messages that goes into every form of entertainment out there, from tv commercials to magazine ads to movies and games, you might consider just to stop watching tv or movies all together. It's honestly a big reason why I don't watch nearly as much tv as I used to. They don't call it programming for nothing. There are shapes, colors and patterns, not to mention sounds, and then various combinations of all of it, that the human mind responds to on a primary level, that you aren't even aware of most of the time. You don't even have to know what the symbolism is, in fact it works better if you don't, because your mind still recognizes it and responds to it. You know how many psychology classes I had to take, just to get a degree in computer animation and game art? Why do you think psychology would be required for a degree in computer animation? Part of it is so you know how to effectively communicate with your audience, to get them to sympathize with the characters you're parading in front of them - even when it's a character or theme they don't necessarily think they like on the surface - and there are very specific ways that's done and it takes understanding a lot of psychology to do it effectively. And one of the first steps is getting your audience drooling over the titties in impractical armor, so they're hooked and keep coming back for more. So when I see images with things like feet cropped, I tend to think about those things, and wonder what the artist's real intentions behind it are. Because I've sat through lecture after lecture on symbolism and color patterns and how this works with that, and what gets your audience's attention the fastest and how to hold it once it's gotten, because that's the kind of things actors, animators and art students are taught these days. And no, it doesn't all work on everybody, but it works on enough people enough of the time, to be pretty effective, and the entertainment industry has been going for a good while now. Hollywood is over a hundred years old, and they're very good at what they do. Just look around you.  

PS: I love Moriador's take on the snake girl. I would hang that on my wall. Talk about art imitating art, and taking the piss out of it. No objectification of women in it either, haha. 

Here's something I came across that you might find interesting, Shane. The first link is to the actual research on color analysis of art.

http://www.nature.com/srep/2014/141211/srep07370/full/srep07370.html

The second link is where I got that from... The Daily Mail (for those Americans who don't know, in the UK, it's considered a rag mag, on the level of the National Enquirer). But even the Mail can occasionally report something truly interesting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2870089/Was-Jackson-Pollock-art-like-Medieval-masterpieces-Analysis-shows-evolution-colour-contrast-paintings-centuries.html

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

You have my permission to tell me what you think I'm suffering from, so go on, I don't mind, go on?

You have a grasp of nothing, Moriador, that's your problem, you only think you do.  I act the way I do and "put it on" because I prefer to do that.  If I wanted to, I could turn into a completely different person, a gullible idiot who says yes all the time and believes everything I'm told.  I could post here under a totally different username, speak to you for years and you would never know it was me.  The only thing I actually do "suffer" from is called "Living in England" - which as I pointed out before, is something I thoroughly intend to (and will) do something about.

I won't be changing myself though, I'm perfectly happy with myself.  I'm proud to be a non-gullible Rebel with a fully functioning brain, and that's who I'll remain.

But now you choose to "harp-on" about web browsers because you've finally realised you were beat in the other discussion.  Well put it this way, I'm "educated" enough not to use a browser developed by Apple, Google, or Microsoft, but you clearly aren't, just remember that.  And as I've already tried to get through to you, it's you who'll discover further down the line, that using those browsers is going to be your problem, not mine, because I don't use them.  Just as with all this Eroticism stuff, you know nothing like the amount of thngs you try to make out you do.  Your real level of intelligence is obvious in you still being prepared to use those commercial browsers!  You seriously haven't a clue as to the sheer depth and implications of using those corporate web browsers, because if you had a clue, you would not use them.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm telling you, but being the stubborn, insulting woman that you are, you'll either listen or you'll learn the hard way.  The fact that you're still using one of those commercial browsers means you've chosen to learn the hard way.  So anyway, talk about "poisioning a forum" discussion, a freaking web browser has nothing to do with your lack of understanding of Eroticism and the Power of Suggestion - so lets drop the web-browser crap and just accept that you were out of your depth on both matters.

The difference is that when I brought up the topic of web browsers, it was to make people aware of what is going on - it was there for good reason.  You, however, have just brought-up the topic of web browsers thinking it might somehow do something for your cause.  I'll admit, I'm not educated enough to know why you though bringing the discussion of web browsers might help you, but whatever, Moriador.  You can use whatever user tracker ... sorry ... "web browser" you like, because the only person that will pay for YOUR choice, is YOU, not me!

I mean, duh, Moriador, pretty easy to work that one out - even for an uneducated peasant like me.

@Shane
Just about to eat, will post later, but that's more like it, and don't worry, the reply is going to be more tollerable than you might think.

 

 

 I'm having fum with my wacom intuos :)

can even say I'm kinda on subject cause I'm showing EClark1894 what can be done with them ;)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

When I was young I liked big cities ,Alanta,NY,LA etc etc all very good parting places for the young.cost a lot to live there thou. 

I won't name the emailing church but was from around the great lakes. 

I currently live in the hillbilly lands got to look after some kin .cost of living is very low.no hurricanes earth quakes or tornadoes but winters are a pain.

movies and tv likes to make them out to be back wood hicks.I've been from Canada to Mexico Atlantic to Pacific.humans are humans no matter where you go.

and if it ant the cold n snow it's the hurricanes,tornadoes or earth quakes. but no matter what the weather I'm always up for a beer :)

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Pumeco, give it up. I don't care what you have to say about anything. To care, I'd have to believe there was some small shred of value in your words. You can't possibly believe that I think that. You're not hurting my feelings or making me mad. You can't because you don't have that power. Nor do I care about this imaginary competition you seem to think is going on. I don't care about it because it's all in your head. If you continue with this, you're just pissing in the wind. 

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

 yes Hollywood is good at what they do and pro commercial makers are good also.

Hollywood does makes comic movies also I like'm.

and no i'm no Art major ,I never cared for school .the study of symbolism razes my curiosity thou.

but they broke music down to a science also so they can make top 40's n #1 songs.

they have a writer and then a singer and then a backup band that makes #1 songs 

Willie Nelson ,Kiss etc etc did not conform to those rules.

but there's a lot of tunes I like that never made it to radio. but I like some of the top 40's also.I like Kelly Clarkson .

for there time wasn't Da Vinci and Michelangelo commercial Artist ?

should Boris and Royo work at micky D's and paint for free ?

are micky D's very very small pay checks even enough for Art supplies ?

even if I like some of Pablo Picasso and Jackson Pollock stuff does that mean I half to agree it's worth millions ?

could you call there stuff commercial Art for the Wealthy ? 

Do I half to agree with the wealthy that payes there employees dirt that there painting is worth more then one of there hamburgers ? 

Do I half to agree with out Picasso , Pollock , Frazetta. I'd be painting flowers and puppys ?

would there be  Picasso , Pollock , Frazetta with out Da Vinci and Michelangelo ?

Do I half to agree with every thing some Art school said ? Do you think Pollock would ?

 

 

 

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

@Shane
Where to start ... might as well be Pollock as that's where my comment seems to have had the most influence on your reply to me.

So regards Pollock: At the time you first mentioned Pollock, I was sort of semi-aware of some of Pollock's background because I saw (I think) it was a BBC documentary about him some years back, and if he's the guy I think he is - a big thumbs-up to him.  The thumbs-up is for him, however, not the art.  I like the analogy of looking up at the stars, and believe it or not, I do understand how you would connect that to his work and as I said originally, I do understand why you like it.  Both are big and random, and both allow you to pick what your mind wishes from them.  I'm not an educated "Art" guy, absolutely not, I wouldn't even dream of pretending I am.  I'm the sort of person who, after watching two art experts analyse a nude for hours, would probably walk up behind them and say something like ...

"Hah, so that's why you've been stood here talking for hours, but I don't blame you, great tits!"

Those art critics, like you, and like Moriador, would likely turn your nonses up and just assume I'm an ignorant ass for what I said.  But that's one of the problems with society, because while that ignorant ass might indeed come across as such, it's easy to forget that there is a raw unpoluted truth in what he says.  The well behaved art critics might have whispered deep and meaningful words to each other for hours, but it's the ignorant ass who nailed it on the head, cause like it or not, it's those  "Great Tits!"  that will ultimately sell the image.

And that's the sort of thing that has happened here.  You and Moriador are effectively the art critics, and I'm just the ignorant ass.  It's not Pollock or his art I took issue with, it's how you replied to RorrKonn, the way it appeared to be constructed.  Telling someone that the art they admire is the domain of horny little boys, and then presenting a Pollock like you did, was very belittling.  I know it was belittling because I felt belittled by it myself, and you wasn't even replying to me!  On that occasion, you were effectively the ignorant ass, because you painted the entire hetero-male population as 'horny little boys' without even realising it.  The problem with what you said is that you're only looking at it one-sided.  You are absolutely correct in that such work is done for the commercial value, of course it is - it's the same old story - sex sells.  But the bit you forgot about is that "Fantasy Female" art is absolutely not strictly the domain of horny little boys.  It's popular with that age group for obvious reasons, it might even be most popular with that age group, but it's also popular with the adult male for exactly the same reasons, so it's far away from having the limited market and appeal you seem to think it has.  It just felt very one-sided and belittling.

Regards my discussions with Moriador:  The problem is that whenever a discussion gets heated or she feels she's losing a debate, she looks elsewhere to find something to insult me.  First of all it was that stuff about her suspecting I was gay (WTF!).  Then she became 'Moriador the Analyst' and decided I'm suffering from something.  Oh, and then she brought-up web-browsers for crying out loud!  I was scratching my head right now wondering what the hell she's gonna come up with next, but I just did a page refresh while writing this and I see she's decided not to subject me to it after all.

I suppose I can at least be thankful for that, though what she doesn't realise is that I wanted her to be right, I'd love to agree with her for once!

Regards the Objectification of Women:  I'm glad you posted what you did, because you highlighted an aspect I hadn't thought about, and it's very important.  When I speak of the eroticness of a woman being helpless, I speak of a consenting woman being helpless, and that of course is vital.  There is nothing wrong with roleplaying a sacrifice, a rape, or indeed anything you can imagine - as long as it's consenting.  Such things are nothing new, it's as mainstream as a trip to the Cinema these days, a place where nudity, violence, death, rape - and all sorts of perversions have been used to bait audiences for decades.

So how would some of you like to question your own morals instead of questioning mine?

Now I could, if I wanted to be really cocky, let people click on the attached Film and then tell them why I posted it.  But due to the content, I'll give you fair warning and allow you (and others) to test your own morals; I'll tell you in advance what happens in the Film.  So the film, shot in Spain, is all about Devil Worship, and to Worship the Devil means a sacrifice is in order.  Not surprisingly then, the movie features a beautiful woman who gets restrained, has her clothes removed, gets raped and then killed (representing a sacrifice to the Devil).  It's an "Erotic Horror", and the reason it carries such a label is because, despite how extreme my description might sound to some, it's basically those classic 'Power of Suggestion' and 'Domination' aspects of erotica - nothing more.  It's the classic situation where the women is powerless to do anything about her imminent demise (a take on the 'damsel in distress' theme often used in comics).

Hypocricy Test (For Males Only):
1 - Are you appalled that a Film would feature such things, and refuse to watch it?
2 - Are you trying hard not to watch the Film?
3 - Are you rushing to play it now that you know what happens in it?

Here you go, the scene I described starts at  2:14  and remember you are as free to ignore it as you are to click it :

[link removed]

Hypocricy Test Results - AKA which option applied to you?
1 - You're a dying breed, such Films have been made for decades, are freely available, got my English-Dubbed version on Amazon :-D
2 - Valiant attempt, but my firend Mr Devil Snake just told me you gave in quite easily, so welcome to the adult world of suggestion and restraint - Erotica!
3 - Dammit, RorrKonn, I thought I'd find you here, I don't like hypocrites either so I wonder how many Hypocrite-to-Reality converts we'll find?

Yes, I'm still "proud" to admit that I objectify women, it's what men do, but it's vital to understand the context.  Every heterosexual male on this planet "objectifies" women.  A woman is objectified every time a man looks at a woman in a photo and starts roleplaying in his mind.  I don't care whether it's something tasteful like Playboy, a kinky looking Ad for some Poser Lingerie on Renderosity, or something more unusual, it's exactly the same thing - you are objectifying a woman when you do so.  A women in a photograph never specifically asked you to drool over her, she had no clue who would be looking at her when the photo was taken, but you are looking at her and the moment you start using your imagination, you are objectifying her.  She is just as "powerless" to stop you looking at her as she is to stop your imagination running wild.

The other detail that needs to be cleared-up is regards the women themselves who do these things.  I get the impression that you see this stuff as something most women have no interest in.  I'm sorry Shane, but I have to disagree on that one.  I have no solid figures, but women aren't the little angels you seem to think they are.  The amount of girls who take voluntary nude selfies of themselves is indication enough, that first and foremost, they love to be objectified (those types of images are voluntary).  They do it because they know how much power their body has over the men that are looking at them, it gives them a sense of power (and that's a good thing).  What I also know is I'd be spoilt for choice if I were the sort of guy who'd hang with a total stranger just for the experience.  I could, literally, switch-off this computer right now, and in twenty minutes flat, meet-up and be having the time of my life with a like-minded woman - it's that easy.  It's something I've never done and never will do even though I wouldn't have to pay for the priviledge.  But the fact that it's so easy and there are so many places and opportunities dedicated to this sort of thing, tells me that they are perfectly fine with it.  I really don't think those women would be offering their bodies for free otherwise.

So in my opinion, they're not just fine with it, they want it - big-time.  Of course there are women who aren't into this stuff, I know that, but I'm talking about the ones that are interested, and there's more than plenty of them out there, and more besides (and growing all the time).  I think the bottom line is, as I've tried to point out, this stuff is all pretty mainstream now, it's just "classic erotica", has been for decades, it's nothing unusual and nothing to be ashamed of.  There are hundreds of fetishes etc, but they all boil down to the same surprisingly few categories of erotica.  And I think the only difference between now and the past, is that now, people are more prepared to be honest about it, and the reason they're honest about it is because this stuff is no longer taboo (and it never should have been in the first place).  People shouldnlt be made to feel like freaks because of a fetish no matter how deviant it is.  Consent of a fetish between two adults is no one elses business (and certainly no concern for society).  If others don't like their fetish, who gives a crap because it's not as if they asked them to watch, and what two (or more) consenting adults between them, has nothing to do with any other member of society - whatsoever.

Which brings me to desensitization of the heavy stuff.  You make an interesting point about desensitization, but like many, I've always been of the belief that no amount of Cinema (or rather Sinema) is going to make someone do something they would not have done anyway.  And a movie such as the one I attached to this post, would be no more taboo in a real life situation than someone getting their head chopped-off as they do in a video game.  In a real-life situation, someone getting their head chopped-off is no less horrific than a women getting raped, and no human with a fully functioning brain is ever going to do any of those things.

The desensitization thing is something I always read with fascination if I come across it, but regardless, my conclusion is always the same no matter who says what.   To me, a person either has a killer or rapist in them, or they don't, and I don't believe any amount of Sinema or Throat-Slashing videogames is going to turn any person into one any more than anyone who watches the attached FIlm would go out and really sacrifice a woman to the Devil.  I mean how many millions of people have seen Devil Worship movies over the years, and how many women have really been sacrificed to the Devil?

Exactly, and I think it's important to remember that if the world revolved around such a paranoid mechanism, our lives would be truly unbearable.

• Do we frown upon high-heel shoes because thousands of women topple and hurt themselves in them every year? 
• Do we frown upon cars because thousands of people are killed in (and by) them every year?
• Do we frown upon Erotic Horror just because the occasional loonie doesn't have the brains to understand that you don't really sacrifice women?

I hope this post came across in a respectable manner, and it's kinda hard considering the subject matter.  I think I might have shocked some, but hopefully clarified to others.  I've read it over carefully so as to ensure there is nothing insulting to anyone.  Finally, I thought pretty damn hard about how to structure it, how to make people think, and hopefully make any doubters question their own hypocricies.  The Film itself was chosen for the content it contains, and the whole idea of describing what happens in the Film is that it will either excite or repel a person.  All I've done here is what the Sinema industry has been doing for decades to entice the crowds to the Sinema - it's worked for them for decades and it will work equally well here.

Isn't that right, Mr Devil Snake?

Yesssssssss, it sure isssssssss!
Come ride with the Devil, my children, there issssssss much fun and sssssssssex to be had when you ride with Mr Devil Sssssssssnake!

• Mr Devil Sssssssssnake

OMFG, Mr Devil Snake!!!
I'm so going to get a tattoo of you on my body!!!

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

Pumeco, whenever you get into a discussion, even if the talking continues, all debate ends. So -- even if anyone cared -- there's nothing to win or lose. You may believe there is because these things apparently matter to you and you're projecting that upon everyone else. But seriously, it's just you. :D

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

pumeco we posted at the same time. I didn't know youtube would post such stuff.

in my life I've seen cruelties beyond comprehension.

guess I'm so desensitized I can watch a flower or a dude being de bowed with the same unemotional attachment.

I do wish film makers would do a little research thou. the symbols on the pentagram didn't make any since.

the film looked like a1970's B horror movie.I always enjoyed a good horror movie. 

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The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Well, I have my Wacom tablet now, and judging from the way the posts are going, I'd say it's time to shut this puppy down.

To objectify means "to degrade to the status of a mere object".

So anyone who says they objectify women is saying that they do not regard women as HUMAN BEINGS.

And that is offensive to anyone with decency and common sense.

Surely time to lock this thread ...

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Not approved by Scarfolk Council. For more information please reread. Or visit my local shop.

 or maybe would be better to teach them to respect women ?

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The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Yeah, we don't allow links to films or imagery like that here. Just because you tag the post doesn't make the content acceptable in all circumstances. It still has to comply to ToS.