Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Back on topic, if DAZ keep this thing free then maybe this could become a nice option for rendering Poser scenes as well ? lux is slow and octane is expensive and high end renderers don't have much support for poser... Could scripts be written to allow scene setup in Poser and rendering in DS/iRay ?

I don't believe DS will read a pz3 scene file, so you're probably left with doing an obj export and applying materials to that. That's not to rule out someone being able to read the DS sdk to work around getting the scene into DS. But then you still have to learn all the material settings which are different from the dials used for the regular gloss/spec model.

DS reads PZ3 files, and has for as long as I have used it. However it will probably choke on things that DAZ Studio does not support, like the Poser 8 or later rigging, Firefly specific shaders some of the Cameras, and lights come in wrong, depending on which version of Poser, the lights are more or less correct and either too dark or too bright.

Back on topic, if DAZ keep this thing free then maybe this could become a nice option for rendering Poser scenes as well ? lux is slow and octane is expensive and high end renderers don't have much support for poser... Could scripts be written to allow scene setup in Poser and rendering in DS/iRay ?

I don't believe DS will read a pz3 scene file, so you're probably left with doing an obj export and applying materials to that. That's not to rule out someone being able to read the DS sdk to work around getting the scene into DS. But then you still have to learn all the material settings which are different from the dials used for the regular gloss/spec model.

DS reads PZ3 files, and has for as long as I have used it. However it will probably choke on things that DAZ Studio does not support, like the Poser 8 or later rigging, Firefly specific shaders some of the Cameras, and lights come in wrong, depending on which version of Poser, the lights are more or less correct and either too dark or too bright.

Yeah that's what I meant, if it doesn't read it correctly or has errors, then it didn't read the pz3 file. ;) But the less items that depend on shaders and the material room and more on actual maps and textures, the better.

I'm interested in this, but maybe they could move it to DS forum so experts there could discuss, then non-Daz-users could check in, if interested. one mod had plan to delete OT threads as they become contentious, but I dunno what happened.

complaint used here since Willow was in charge (1998): it ain't community unless users can argue about OT stuff. they've even tried OT Forum and tavern (or similar), but they hadda delete those as well. chat room now good place for this. it's peaceful (most users are asleep) and they are friendly, not angry nor defensive IMVHO.

I'm interested in this, but maybe they could move it to DS forum so experts there could discuss, then non-Daz-users could check in, if interested. one mod had plan to delete OT threads as they become contentious, but I dunno what happened.

Because a poser user asked, that really the bottom line not the other way around. You are free not to view the thread, but let's not bully other poser users to go elsewhere, because this is what it really is. If you have any questions you can look up several replies to the one fictionalbookshelf added.

"But the less items that depend on shaders and the material room and more on actual maps and textures, the better."

I would think that would be key. Perhaps the simplest solution would be a material file in poser that stripped out nodes on figures and so forth with a user check to make sure that all the correct maps were in place. And another that made the specularity and bump adjustments. That way the user would be working where they were most comfortable to get those initial files sorted and so there would be less chance of errors that would nuke the pz3

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

Ding-Dong?

Knock-Knock?

Would all intrudes please move over to their own sides?

We do not CARE about the Diezel System

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I saw the renders from the new Daz beta but it didn't live up to the hype that I thought I would see. What I read in my email made me think that I was going to see something that rivals Reality or Vue. Usually when Daz gets something I begin to wonder if Poser would follow suit. The only thing that I learned today was that Poser's flexibility with lighting is still a good choice and if you need something more than that then there's Reality

The only thing that I really got from reading the little that there is on it, It just seems that they've automated the settings, where as with Poser you just have a huge range of customizations that are available in terms of lighting and materials, and environment spheres. It would be nice to have an Easy button on Poser but not if it means getting rid of the flexibility and customizations with configs.

With Poser I know for a fact that I can create realistic renders or renders that look like paintings and I wouldn't want to get rid of the things that allow that range of creativity with my renders.

"Ding-Dong?

Knock-Knock?

Would all intrudes please move over to their own sides?

We do not CARE about the Diezel System"

This sounds so childish to me. What would make me not an intruder? Owning poser? Check. Products for poser? Check again. Content provider at this store? Check again. If you were the owner of these boards and want to run away customers and content creators it would be one thing but I'm not aware of a proprietary relationship that you have with Renderosity. If you are in fact someone who has the right to run off other users that is different.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

"With Poser I know for a fact that I can create realistic renders or renders that look like paintings and I wouldn't want to get rid of the things that allow that range of creativity with my renders."

The program continues to have 3delight and I doubt they will be removing it any time soon. People who are more comfortable with a biased render engine for realism and non realism have not lost any options because the new engine was added.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

Back on topic, if DAZ keep this thing free then maybe this could become a nice option for rendering Poser scenes as well ? lux is slow and octane is expensive and high end renderers don't have much support for poser... Could scripts be written to allow scene setup in Poser and rendering in DS/iRay ?

One could always export as an .obj and bring it into Studio; the shaders would need to be redone anyway. Sadly, it's nVidia only.

SM does need to do something to deal with the limitations of Firefly, particularly IDL artifacts, and hopefully sooner than later....

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

"Sadly, it's nVidia only."

Only if you want to use GPU rendering. It is faster with a nVidia card yes but it is not required. CPU can be done with any card.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

I don't want to get involved in the usual Daz / Poser debate but I do have a question. The OP was wondering if SM would do anything to compete, good question well presented????????. Then there appears to be some discussion on Poser users using iRay. My question is, what does iRAY give you that other renders open to Poser users do not?

I can understand someone who already uses both Poser and DS might want to try it but what are the other options open to Poser users that only use Poser and don't want to go down the Daz route?

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

There are plenty of other options. The main difference here is that Iray is free, so those who do not have money to buy an alternative render engine can have access to Iray and try it out. Also out of the box it gives nice results, and you don't have to spend hours editing the shaders, or leave the app via a plugin.

I was just reading the thread on DAZ, it's at 55 bloody pages now though, so I'm not reading through that lot :-D

Anyway, as good as it sounds, I'm only interested in this if it works in the built-in viewport, or at least the window has the ability to dock in the DAZ interface. Can someone tell me the situation there cause I hate having to switch between program and renderer program, it infuriates me so much I don't even use Octane (or Reality) because of it even though I love both products.

I just want something like this, but I wan't it built-into the program properly. I read early on in the thread that it's "built-in", but right now I find that a bit too hard to believe. What exactly do they mean by "Built-in", do they mean just because it's internally connected to it, or do they mean it's actually built-in to the DS interface?

file_fc221309746013ac554571fbd180e1c8.JP It's built into the DS & the viewport. All you have to do is switch to the Iray render engine in order to use it. Here you can see it starts rendering the preview if Iray is selected. You still have to actually click render, but this shows a progression view in the viewport the longer you leave it. You can also switch to aux view where it will preview the scene in Iray if that is the render engine selected.

I was just reading the thread on DAZ, it's at 55 bloody pages now though, so I'm not reading through that lot :-D

Anyway, as good as it sounds, I'm only interested in this if it works in the built-in viewport, or at least the window has the ability to dock in the DAZ interface. Can someone tell me the situation there cause I hate having to switch between program and renderer program, it infuriates me so much I don't even use Octane (or Reality) because of it even though I love both products.

I just want something like this, but I wan't it built-into the program properly. I read early on in the thread that it's "built-in", but right now I find that a bit too hard to believe. What exactly do they mean by "Built-in", do they mean just because it's internally connected to it, or do they mean it's actually built-in to the DS interface?

It's built in to the interface. Results can be viewed interactively from IPR or the viewport. file_8f85517967795eeef66c225f7883bdcb.jp

Yeah it's pretty nifty, they seem seriously motivated in making it a full alternative to 3delight.

I can understand someone who already uses both Poser and DS might want to try it but what are the other options open to Poser users that only use Poser and don't want to go down the Daz route?

Good news is that there is more choice in renderers these days then ever before. There's VRay, Arnold, Redshift, Octane, Thea, Indigo, moskito, Maxwell, Cycles off the top of my head as well as various old workhorses like mentalray, finalRender, PRMan, 3delight, Vue...

The bad news is that only a few of them offer any kind of serious support for Poser or are affordable. There's lux of course which is free and has good support via Reality but is painfully slow. There's Octane which is faster but isn't exactly cheap. Also good old C4D + interposer but that's even more expensive... Compared to those, iRay does seem like a 'best of all worlds' renderer IMO.

Here is a quick vid showing the viewport when set to Iray with DOF as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh7gLmjtBHM

Off course its interesting news,but as with every PBR renderer everything will depends on yours HW,shame is only for nVidia GPU,yes you can use CPU mode,with which will you will get slower renders

With Poser you still can use many other external renderers,just you will need to export them to external app like is 3DS MAX etc.I personally prefer 3DS MAX and render there in V-RAY,both are student version and both will do job for my needs or you can use there Metalray or iRay etc.

Agree Reality is slow,but most of the PBR renderers are slow,everything all depends on the HW used and settings used,if I will crank V-RAY settings in some scenes then my renders will takes too 12-14 hour to render on my PC

Good on the iRAY in DS is everything you have there and you don't need to export to external app,which is easier for people who prefer to render in one app.I've done few test renders and they look OK,still I would do few more renders to test and then decide if its for me,for me I hate DS GUI and I don't see I would be using DS for rendering although iRay is very nice proposition and nice renderer and this can me take back to DS,but for now I'm firmly with Poser and use as my external renderer 3DS MAX with V-RAY or I will go route other renderer

Thanks,Jura

@Zev0 and Male_M3dia
Wow, I can hardly believe my eyes, at last we have a GPU renderer actually running inside the viewport of a Figure Tool. I've waited for this ever since I first set eyes on Octane Render!

Glad I didn't bother to upgrade Octane now, cause like I said, the workflow of having seperate programs just destroys the enjoyment for me. But wow, have to say I'm extra happy about this because it means that finally, there is a program that does everything I want it to (well almost). Just two things stopping DS from being the perfect solution. I wish it had the same implementation of Bullet Pyhsics for Cloth as Poser has (that live-mode for animated weightmap positioning is superb) and I wish it had that Physics plugin like that Poser plugin developer made.

Those are both things that can be done with plugins, and with those two, DS would be my dream setup!

"Sadly, it's nVidia only."

Only if you want to use GPU rendering. It is faster with a nVidia card yes but it is not required. CPU can be done with any card.

Interesting. How is the speed compared to LuxRender?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Oh, and when I see 'PBR Renderers', this is what I envision... :lol:

file_3988c7f88ebcb58c6ce932b957b6f332.jp

THIS THREAD IS MAKING ME THIRSTY!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

"Sadly, it's nVidia only."

Only if you want to use GPU rendering. It is faster with a nVidia card yes but it is not required. CPU can be done with any card.

Interesting. How is the speed compared to LuxRender?
No idea. You would have to open the exact same scene and do a timestamp render in both engines.

i would luv a vray plugin. if anyone is counting wishes :)

maybe win the lotto so i could buy the hardware

♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

I just downloaded it but I can't find that button, and even in the render preferences where you get to choose the renderer, I can't see IRay listed as an option.
Any idea what I'm doing wrong here?

It's the latest version of DS downloaded through the Install Manager.

I just downloaded it but I can't find that button, and even in the render preferences where you get to choose the renderer, I can't see IRay listed as an option.
Any idea what I'm doing wrong here?

It's the latest version of DS downloaded through the Install Manager.

did you d/l the new beta version?
is only in the beta.

♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

You will need

http://www.daz3d.com/daz-studio-beta

and also the new genesis2 essentials.

To correct the misinformation. Nvidia's Iray does do SSS and it is available from within DAZ Studio. And the 'misinformation' is why so many DAZzies show up in these areas.

OK perhaps I can get a clear answer(without having to read pages of a seeming temper tantrum going on)
Sotto on DA said I do not need the NVIDIA card to use the new DS...is this true?

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission open.

Yes, you can still use your "cpu only" with Iray, the same why 3dlight does. However renders will take a bit longer. But there are those who are using cpu only and getting decent times and results. All depends on your scene. The end result in terms of quality will be the same, only time is affected without an nvidia gpu.

Hmm..this looks very interesting but frankly

after looking at the "Iray render" thread,

over at the Daz forums,

I see nothing that cant be done with the free

Daz script I have been using to send my

LEGACY POSER CONTENT to Blender cycles

Via Daz Studio.

Not knocking Daz in fact Kudos to them, it just seems to my aging eyes that All of the modern Physically based renders

(IRay Maxwell, Octane,Thea,Cycles,LUX etc etc.)

look basicaly the same.

Yes, you can still use your "cpu only" with Iray, the same why 3dlight does. However renders will take a bit longer. But there are those who are using cpu only and getting decent times and results. All depends on your scene. The end result in terms of quality will be the same, only time is affected without an nvidia gpu.

Decent times? are we talking hours ....or days? Its slow render times that have been dragging me. I have Reality and ...guh...I tend to work in 8000x6000 and anywhere from 72dpi to 300dpi....

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission open.

Well for me the difference is an extra hour or so. But Like I said, it all depends on the scene you are rendering.

I see nothing that cant be done with the free Daz script I have been using to send my

LEGACY POSER CONTENT to Blender cycles

Via Daz Studio.

It is all about convenience. You have no idea how much that plays into people actually wanting to try out something. There are lot's of user who do not want to go into another app just to render, the same mindset that they won't use another app to use Genesis for example. They want things working where they are most comfortable.

They look the same because they are basically the same in terms of the kind of rendering they do. Some focus on performance, some on more features but the root unbiased rendering approach is the same in all of them. And of course the bottleneck in all this is steadily shifting from the rendering itself to the quality of content being rendered...

@Misty
Thanks, that fixed it, I had stupidly downloaded 4.7 :-P

@Zev0
Where in the render settings do I set it to use my GPU's?

I have two nVidia GTX460's, bit crappy by todays standards but two of them were lightning fast with Octane (though sadly it will only access the RAM of one card as Octane doesn't add together the RAM of both cards). I've got a viewport render from IRay, but it's a bit sluggish, I think it must be using the CPU and not the GPU's.

Trouble is, I can't find CPU/GPU settings anywhere, help! :-D

Yes, actually I am saying it's more OT than any of those.

Oh, you would be wrong, then. Thanks for trying to be the forum police though, good show.

"It is all about convenience. You have no idea how much that plays into people actually wanting to try out something. There are lot's of user who do not want to go into another app just to render, the same mindset that they won't use another app to use Genesis for example. They want things working where they are most comfortable."

Quite True Sir

I am thankful that My mind is not hindered by such limitations and is able to allow me to access a variety of tools to achieve my creative objectives.

Where in the render settings do I set it to use my GPU's?

On the render settings tab.. then look at advanced settings:

Decent times? are we talking hours ....or days? Its slow render times that have been dragging me. I have Reality and ...guh...I tend to work in 8000x6000 and anywhere from 72dpi to 300dpi....

DarkElegance, for CPU rendering in Lux, jack every computer you have in the house into a switch or router, and network render. If budget allows, consider buying used server blades equipped with dual HyperThreaded hex-core Xeon processors, and using them as network render drones.

Poser 12, in feet.

OSes: Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

Yes, you can still use your "cpu only" with Iray, the same why 3dlight does. However renders will take a bit longer. But there are those who are using cpu only and getting decent times and results. All depends on your scene. The end result in terms of quality will be the same, only time is affected without an nvidia gpu.

In our testing, we have found that, as long as you properly light your scene (Not comparing Headlamp only or no shadow renders in 3Delight.) the average time for Iray renders in CPU mode is about the same as 3Delight., Yes, some things go nuts, but generally it is within +/- 10%.

Note that if your Video card has less than 4GB dedicated Video RAM, it is turned off by default. You can turn it on, but be advised that if you run out of Video Ram in the viewport it can crash. Also note that the viewport mode only uses one card or the CPU, which ever the scene fits on.

Further note It is not recommended that you turn off the CPU. That gives your computer nothing to fall back on if you exceed your video card RAM.

@Male_M3dia
Cheers, I was clicking on the Draw Settings by mistake, and there was no options under Advanced for that part.

Got it, so now I'll have to have a look at all those interactivity settings so that I can get it to behave like Octane (I hope). In Octane, when you rotate the scene, it breaks-up into larger pixels to make it nice and fluid to rotate even while it renders, so I'm hoping some of these settings will do that as well. It's not as fluid as Octane at the moment cause there's a pause and then it shows the full render, whereas Octane was rendering all the time, even while I rotated the scene. Like I said though, it's probably down to the settings, and wow, it looks a lot more sophisticated than Octane so far, I'm not sure I've seen half these settings before.

First impressions are very promising indeed!

Hi everyone, I'm glad to see this thread calming down. Unfortunately the mods have agreed that it should be locked due to the potential of it flaring up again.

My Store & My Freebies

I am bring this thread back as I think it is newsworthy to some of our members. We have to remember that some members use both DS and Poser.

All we ask that the thread stays on track going forward.

Tina Kaylor

Community Manager

"Sadly, it's nVidia only."

Only if you want to use GPU rendering. It is faster with a nVidia card yes but it is not required. CPU can be done with any card.

Interesting. How is the speed compared to LuxRender?

Hi WW Comparison speeds between the CPU and GPU mode of iRAY in DAZ3D:

GPU(560TI 2GB ) with CPU(X5670 6core overclock'd 4.2GHz) mode scene bellow took 39mins

CPU mode only(X5670 6 core overclock'd 4.2GHz) 1hour and 30mins

Lighting i've used only one spotlight and dome light(studio HDR from sIBL)

As you can see there is no difference between the CPU or GPU mode,only speed is there difference,as with every renderer,everything deepends on HW used.

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura

Thanx, Jura! :)

And Thanx to Tina for reviving this thread! :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

I'm thinking I'll hold out for Paolo's Reality for Renderman. :)

the records stuck ,somebody kick it.

P.S.

pumeco before ya dive to deep daz forums are a lot stricter then here.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

It looks an interesting development however, given some further thought it really is not a solution for me. First of all I would have to learn another interface and I really don't want to go down the route for the sake of a render engine. The other problem I have is that Vue has now become part of my workflow and using Poser for internal scenes and Vue for external, with Poser materials inside Vue, it gives me some consistency. Not sure I want to have to use three render engines but then that is just the way I work, for others this does look a step in the right direction.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

"I'm thinking I'll hold out for Paolo's Reality for Renderman. :)"

I'm not sure that I blame you due to the extra level of fiddling for surfaces. But, since I am cheap and the price is 0$ I doubt if I would. That and I want to be able to figure out how to work "oh I use the same render engine as the guys who do the renault commercials" into a conversation. I know they still won't understand what I do or what I am talking about but at least they would recognize that one word.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

"I'm thinking I'll hold out for Paolo's Reality for Renderman. :)"

I'm not sure that I blame you due to the extra level of fiddling for surfaces. But, since I am cheap and the price is 0$ I doubt if I would. That and I want to be able to figure out how to work "oh I use the same render engine as the guys who do the renault commercials" into a conversation. I know they still won't understand what I do or what I am talking about but at least they would recognize that one word.

I recognise the word 'commercials' :-)

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

"I'm thinking I'll hold out for Paolo's Reality for Renderman. :)"

I'm not sure that I blame you due to the extra level of fiddling for surfaces. But, since I am cheap and the price is 0$ I doubt if I would. That and I want to be able to figure out how to work "oh I use the same render engine as the guys who do the renault commercials" into a conversation. I know they still won't understand what I do or what I am talking about but at least they would recognize that one word.

I just don't think Reality will be available with Renderman as Renderman Free if you mean is and will be available for free use(although Renderman has been announced few month ago and they said,should be available in 2014,hopefully will be available in 2015) and Reality is commercial product,not sure if Renderman can allow this Out are few other PBR renderers like Mitsuba which are GPL free or many others and if SM or Paolo@Reality will accompany this to their apps then great thing,this we can say,if SM will struck the deal with nVidia or even AutoDesk or Chaos(V-Ray) then we are all the winners

Thanks,Jura

Poser has a fairly good track record for folding in useful things that were externally created. If I were them I would have started talks with Paolo to try get him on board for just that. The tricky bit there would be requiring people to make that extra lux download (f that had to still be downloaded separately) and you know how people get about.. stuff.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

there was a reduced price vray version for truespace.
it wasn't same as maxes it was a water down version ,vray lite.

------------------------------------------------

Realty is a killer deal for a wicked render engine.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/reality-4---poser-edition/107744/
but if all ya can afford is $0.00 free.
how ya going to afford to buy stuff to render ?
there might be free stuff in 3D but 3D is light years a way from free.
ya pay to play.

and while I'm rambling.why don't we ever hear about the best post app MS5 ?
They spend all that time and money on a killer render but they don't take it over top in post.
I just always wonder about that part.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I know it won't be free, not a problem.

Paolo posted something recently (I don't recall where, probably RDNA) about extreme interest in building a Reality for Renderman when it's released for free. I'm pretty sure about that because that's when I googled it and got signed up on the renderman email list for when it's released, supposedly in early 2015.

So I'm thinking it will be released (and this isn't an intentional dig to you daz guys) soon. :)

I am in the middle of a complex animated film project so I have ZERO time to fiddle with the public beta.

However I will likely grab the Official release when it appears in my Daz Account Page at some point.

The renders posted in the various threads so far have left me underwhelmed

but I admit to being a bit jaded as a person

who has C4D with Vray, Maxwell and recently

started using blender cycles for stills,

At any rate this is a smart move on the part of Daz Inc. as it keeps their software cutting edge and relevant.

Agree with Reality is great renderer,but its slow and if Luxrender in next installment will support GPU rendering then maybe this will help us with faster render times,GPU renderers are still faster than CPU renderers,for fast CPU render you will need render farm which for most users this is not simply option

If Paolo will release Reality for RenderMan version then this can bridge the gap to other renderers

IRAY is not bad renderer,but if you AMD/ATI owner then you will need to run in CPU mode which is slower than GPU mode.probably best will be if SM/Poser pro support some sort of the GPU/CPU renderer based on OpenCL,where you are not tied to GPU maker(with IRAY you need to have nVidia GPU like with Octane)

Out are few good renderers which are GPL free or paid programs too which would love to see be implemented in Poser Pro

Thanks,Jura

Remember that, unless their plans change, Renderman free will be non-commercial only - unlike Iray in DS, or LuxRender.

Reality for RM just makes no sense.

What is a hobbiest going to do with it that your not already doing with DAZ Studio?

3Delight IS a Renderman compliant render engine.

Im sorry, i dont mean to take this off topic at all.

I wish I had Iray renders to contribute but i dont.

"3Delight IS a Renderman compliant render engine."

Doesn't that only mean that it uses Renderman's shading format?

"3Delight IS a Renderman compliant render engine."

Doesn't that only mean that it uses Renderman's shading format?

3delight does indeed use RSL (Renderman Shading Language), though 3Delight does have some extensions to it. Note there are, that I am aware of, two GUI based interfaces in software that can create RSL code. One of them is in DAZ Studio, the other is from Pixar and costs $1000. However that is not all Renderman compliant means. It is a set of standards, math and equations to make a render engine. :)

I mentioned this in another thread, but didn't really go into any detail. I personally think Renderman being free for non-commercial use is only really any use to the company that produces it. The idea behind it is no doubt so that you learn it, and then maybe in the futre, you'd need to pay them for a commercial licence if you want to use it commercially. Nothing wrong with that, it's a good idea, something they all should do, but I think there's an evolutionary bad side to all of this.

It's bad because it's not realtime, yet a free to use "cinematic quality" realtime renderer already exists. DAZ have their shiny new GPU renderer built right-in, and congrats to them for such an excellent implementation. However, this means SM are up against a free DS with a free GPU renderer built-in, so how can they possibly pull any potentially lost customers back from DAZ, and gain a whole bunch of new ones besides?

I think the answer is obvious, and it's called "Unreal Engine" which is a 'Cinematic Quality Realtime Renderer'.

The four clips below shows Unreal Engine (which is free) in action. This is what Poser needs running in "realtime" in the Poser viewport, this is a much better proposition than bridges to renderers that are not realtime. Poser already has a raytracer, a damn good one, but neither DAZ or SM have a "Realtime Renderer" in their products, so if SM were to licence this product for use directly in the Poser viewport, I think people would come flocking back to Poser at an alarming rate. See, Poser already beats DS in the usability and interface design, and if Unreal Engine was running in the viewport, Poser would beat anything DAZ have added to their system.

Nothing is more enjoyable to use than something that runs in realtime. Movintg an object or figure around in Unreal Engine means it's already rendered. Developing for a game engine would be a dream, because your Poser viewport would be the same as that used in games, so when you develop in Poser, you're effectively developing in the same engine, you know exactly what it will look like. No compatibility problems, instant renders, realtime rendering, this is the future ... now!

Unreal Engine needs licencing for the Poser viewport before 'someone else' beats them to it. Unreal are open to enquiries, so assuming SM use their noodle here, here's how this system could be implemented perfectly into the current Poser system.

Put an option in the Poser Preferences where the user can select between "Firefly" or "Unreal Engine".
Choosing "Firefly" will put the Poser viewport into standard mode, and the Material Room would show the usual Firefly material nodes.
Choosing "Unreal Engine" will put the Poser viewport into Realtime mode, and the Material Room would show the Unreal Engine material nodes instead.

Simple, selective, productive ... mindblowing productivity would await you with such a setup.

So you see, Poser would still have it's raytracer for if/when it's needed, it would still have it's Luxrender and Renderman plugins, but it would also be capable of working in realtime, and realtime is what the future is all about. Unreal Engine is the best out there, it's cinematic quality, physically based rendering, and all in realtime! There's no renderer out there as attractive as Unreal Engine, simply because it does what it does, all in realtime, and that's important for maximum productivity and enjoyability.

The following videos are just a selection of many available, and remember when you're watching them, that everything you see was rendered in realtime. I say that because it's so good it's often hard to believe, but these are all realtime, no more waiting for renders:

Unreal Engine is truly beautiful, isn't it?
And free!
And Unreal Engine are open to licencing!
Waiting for renders is a thing of the past!
It would be the most amazing Poser release ever, to have that renderer running live in the Poser viewport!
So what on earth is SM waiting for? :-D

BTW, just noticed Copy/Paste is fixed and that YouTube embedding is back - thanks :-)

Actually, the Unreal render isn't running in real time as you build scenes. It needs to be compiled first, then you move around the result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7CTPS-5JsE

This makes sense, otherwise you would need a powerful computer and several video cards to run it.

I suspect however, a lot of work would be need to be done in poser to support the subset of rendering, just like DS basically ripped out their view port functionality for the IPR, the environment tab, the render settings tab, and the surfaces tab to allow multiple renderers and their different settings. Choosing a renderer gave you different sets of render settings, applying the iray shader gave you a different set of materials settings, shader mixer added in iray blocks, etc.

Also note that Unreal, like other game engines, generally have the AO and Specular baked into the textures. They also use, compared to typical Poser Content, very low poly content, and very simplified rigging. Poser Content and Game Content have exactly opposite goals.

Has Unreal been used in any actual movies?

...excluding Sci-Fi originals LOL

regards
prixat

"Also note that Unreal, like other game engines, generally have the AO and Specular baked into the textures. They also use, compared to typical Poser Content, very low poly content, and very simplified rigging. Poser Content and Game Content have exactly opposite goals."

Quite correct sir

the optimization of assets is something people often

never hear or bother to read about when they get all excited by

those real time game engines.

Many poser users, IMHO, are NOT quite ready to part with their 65,000 polygon Figure models and hi-res texture maps but want"realtime" performance in the view port.

I use Unreal Engine, you can have all that in realtime :-)

They're always updating it, and while it's true that some things can still be baked, the point is, it's no hardship because it's still there in the same engine, you click one button and it's done. The engine is good enough to get a damn good idea of what the finished look would be. It's no big deal to hit a bake button at the end of your project to bake something critical. But what I'm getting at here, mainly, is that the future of 3D graphics and animation is obviously realtime rendering. I think spending development time creating bridges to other non-realtime engines is a waste for the most part, because at the end of the day, the renderer that is being bridged to is still not realtime.

As it stands right now, neither DS or Poser have a realtime renderer, and I can tell you this without a shadow of a doubt, whichever one of these competing programs manages to implement Unreal Engine first, is going to draw the customers at an alarming rate, I'm 100% confident about that. But at the moment, I think both DAZ and SM are making a big mistake by wasting development time on connecting to things that do what the product can already do - non-realtime raytracing - it's nothing new.

Built-in Realtime viewports are the buzz now (and for good reason).

Put it this way, if DAZ had announced that Unreal Engine was running in it's viewport, I think Poser would be just about dead and buried. Unreal Engine or it's like will eventually end up in the viewport of one of these programs (because Unreal Engine is the best of it's type). But the question is, who will be first, and who will suffer for not being aware of the consequences of ignoring it.

Is the future realtime rendering?
Yes - that's obvious!

Have DAZ chosen wisely with IRay?
No - cause it's not realtime!

Will SM chose wisely with Unreal Engine?
Let's hope so, otherwise they might find DAZ will beat them to it, and that would be disastrous for Poser.

There's not a person using either DS or Poser that would prefer IRay in their viewport over Unreal Engine. I've played with both, and I know for a fact which is best for feedback, best for visualisation, and best for productivity. Best on all counts is the physically based, realtime engine called "Unreal Engine", so let's hope SM start making some good business decisions for Poser.

Can you imagine how amazing it would be to use the Poser you already know, but the render is live and stutter-free in the viewport?
That would be one incredibly desirable program.

AO and Specular are no longer being baked into the diffuse/albedo of game content as games move to real time Physically Based Rendering, separate maps are used for AO, Specular, Metallicity, Gloss, etc. That said, the majority of content for Poser has baked in shadows and specular - skin being the most obvious in this case. Moving to PBR will require people taking a bit more care in their texturing to get optimal results or face situations where lighting in the scene doesn't agree with the results on the surface of models.

Poser, with Unreal Engine in the viewport and iClone style animation tools, would be a dream program that would sell in epic amounts ;-)
Sorry Teyon, crossposted :-P

Realtime Physically Based Global Illumination and Reflections etc.
Imagine being able to do that live in the Poser viewport :-D

And just think, this could be your Poser content you could be rendering and walking around without waiting for a render:

Oh, and the node experts around here would likely get a techno-stiffy if they saw the node system for Unreal Engine :-D
Of course we can trust SM to make it all easy and perfectly integrated though!

Anyway, here's a few cinematic quality visualisations done without the need for a render button :

Realtime Physically Based Global Illumination and Reflections etc.
Imagine being able to do that live in the Poser viewport :-D

That wasn't realtime. I think you missed at least two compilation dialogs during that speed run in the first video. What you're getting is an approximation preview, the final result is from the compilation. The lighting isn't even the same as when the scene is being built. It takes a lot of gpu horsepower to do realtime rendering, as in at least $12,000 in video hardware. Compiling the low poly assets with the lighting gets you that result shown in the other videos.

I use the thing, I know how it works!

Are you saying you'd turn your nose up to a release of Poser that had Unreal Engine in the viewport?
If you did I'm pretty sure you'd be in a less than 1% minority.

It's one thing seeing this stuff done in the Unreal Editor, but it would be quite another to actually have it functioning directly in the Poser viewport. You really need to check out the stuff they add to it on a constant basis, I get all this stuff in realtime in my Unreal Editor viewport (even on my old GTX460 cards). It all depends on what method you use and what the materials themselves have been set up to do (the materials themselves are physically based and don't need baking). I get the feeling some of you think this is a pre-baking trick. It isn't, but if you want to bake for some extra quality, then you can, and all it takes is a single button click - no messing around with maps or multiple programs.

If I were faced with the choice of two figure programs, one that has Ureal Engine and one that doesn't, I'd go for the one with Unreal Engine over those GPU raytracers anyday, and I'm guessing everyone else would too. GPU raytracers are nice, but they're not as fun and productive to work with as having Unreal Engine in a viewport, nothing can beat realtime interactivity and visualisation. Whoever does this first is going to attract customers like they never did before. Proof of that, will come when either DAZ or SM pull their finger out. And due to me preferring the Poser interface, I personally hope it will be SM who do this first.

Unreal Engine in the Poser viewport would be incredible beyond words!

I use the thing, I know how it works!

Are you saying you'd turn your nose up to a release of Poser that had Unreal Engine in the viewport?
If you did I'm pretty sure you'd be in a less than 1% minority.

I think you have your terminology mixed up, because going through the video tutorials what is being presented is not realtime. Sorry you're aren't going to convince me otherwise when I'm looking directly at it. Those portions of the scenery has to be compiled, then you can work from that, but it's definitely not realtime. That's why the build and play buttons are there. But honestly, as many features are in the Unreal editor itself, it makes more sense to just use the Unreal tools themselves and import your content there. And I'm not sure what you mean by realtime doesn't exist in DS when I can set the iray preview on drop my content and as i move the cursor or change settings it re-renders the scene. I can also do this from the IPR Aux window as well.

I have the UT4 engine and it is fantastic. However, due to its complicated structures, it would be easier to create some sort of exporter to the engine via a player that only displays the compiled data or scene, rather than bring it into apps like Daz or Poser.

@Male_M3dia
Can you explain that IRay thing a bit better cause I'm curious if what you mean is what I was trying to get it to do. I followed your advice and got it going, I got a render out of it pretty damn quick. Unfortunately though, I've not touched it since because the interactivity isn't there. IRay feels a bit like Luxrender in use, so you move a scene and there's a pause before it'll show something. Octane works much nicer, because it shows a low-pixel approximation while you rotate the camera, there is always a render on the screen no matter what quality it is.

That's why I can live with Octane but not Luxrender, and, it seems IRay is the same as Luxrender in that respect.

If what you're saying is that I can have that Octane-style feedback in IRay while I move the camera, please explain it, because that would make IRay a heck of a lot more desirable to me than it is right now. Right now, I'm bored of it already because it's not interactive enough. It's annoying to have that pause before showing a render, I'd rather see the remder being built-up than wait for it to reach a certain quality before it shows itself. In Octane this is done in realtime as you move the camera, and in Unreal Engine there is no need to render at all.

If you can explain how to get IRay working at least the way Octane does, that would be fantastic!

@Zev0
But that's the problem, Unreal Engine isn't as easy to use as Poser, and if it were then I doubt I'd be using Poser or DS at all. Poser has a great interface, but it lacks in quality hands-on animation tools and a realtime renderer. None of these companies are best at everything. Epic have the best renderer with Unreal Engine, DAZ has better animation tools than Poser with their puppeteer and aniMate system, and iClone blows even DAZ out of the water for animation tools. But Poser has the best interface and it's that interface that is the only reason SM are still able to sell Poser when faced with competition like the free DS from DAZ. Poser needs better animation tools though (desperately), so if that were mixed with the Unreal Engine all running inside the Poser interface, like I said, people would be swarming to Poser because it would be best at everything.

If SM don't do this stuff with Poser, DAZ will with DS, or indeed, someone might show-up out of the blue that allows you to load-in and render rigged Poser characters in the Unreal Engine environment. It's going to be interesting to see what the major new features are in the next version of Poser, especially for me, cause what they announce will be pretty much a game-changer in that it will either scare me away from Poser altogether, or it will show that they're going along the right path.

The right path for Poser is a Realtime Renderer and desperately needed iClone-style animation tools. We don't need more figure technology adding to complicate things even further. We don't need another bunch of tweaks for that shitty Walk Designer from prehistoric times, we don't need interface improvements. What we need is what the other programs have and are tempting people away from Poser, because if Poser doesn't catch up there, people will simply stop buying it.

One thing I will say in SM's favour is that maybe they are listening to customers now. I was surprised to see an SR4 for Poser, nevermind an SR5 as well, so a big thumbs-up to them for that. Fixing the bugs that are already there will make for more stable additions to the program, so from that point of view at least, SM are going down the right path.

I just hope they follow-up with wise decision making when it comes to the features Poser needs in the next version, if it is to keep pace with the competition.

And now SR5.2 is available in the download manager.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

does unreal give me any advantages ?? already decided NOT to get DS!! again ;-) the renders/times I've seen for Iray don't match up with cycles for me

I don't play games so highly unlikely I'd ever make one ;-).. but the idea of a walk down EClarks long and winding road could be fun or a "walk round" a building etc. Guess unreal would be better for that

mmmmmmmmm confused might have to think about this over a beer or two

" the renders/times I've seen for Iray don't match up with cycles for me"

I have reached this conclusion as well

the free Exporter That I am using to send DAZ scenes to blender

from DS 4.7 are getting me better looking and faster renders than

what I am getting with the DS 4.8 beta & Iray at this point.

But I attribute this to blender having a lighter resource "footprint" than Daz Studio in General.

Still I will grab the General release of DS 4.8 when it Appears in My DAZ account.

DIfferent options are always nice.

" Poser has a great interface,......But Poser has the best interface and it's that interface that is the only reason SM are still able to sell Poser when faced with competition"

LOL!!!!I must Disagree :-)

Poser pro's Scene Management tools are garbage!!

so is its Camera& lighting system....Garbage!!

and the Flash based Library is ridiculous!!

it is fine for Single figures sitting in one location waiting

for their portrait render to start

But just try to load a complicated Set and animate a walk through

and you see how this early 1990's "Kia Krause" Interface belongs in the ash bin of history.

We have No ability to truly customize the interface skin or font colors.

I like that SM has bundled in that third party Light manager panel however its very limiting with No Option( that I can find) to give lights or cameras Custom names

and what about a layer system to assign scene elements to their own color coded layer which would allow us to "solo" any scene element with one click and make adjustments to while the big huge stonemason set is hidden.

I could go on and on.. But anybody who has ever used

a professional CG application to work on large, Dense scenes

already knows that posers is way sub par for anything complicated.

You're very wrong about the interface, it's that type of interface that helped make Bryce and Poser in to popular products.
I agree about Flash though, nothing should depend on that crap, so thankfully there is a way around it!

When I talk about Poser having a better interface, I'm talking about usability. I'd rather grab the dedicated designed tools in Poser and spin them around than go searching through masses and masses of sliders in DAZ Studio. The people responsible for the original Bryce and Poser interface were years ahead of what we have even now. For the most part the designers of programs lately, shouldn't be let anywhere near a design job.

Considering Poser is crap at at animation etc, what do you think is causing people to pay hundreds of dollars for Poser when they can have DS for free?

It's the interface, and it could do with some improvement, but nevertheless, it's the Poser interface than makes it a nicer program to use over DS, and as with anything in life, you can't beart a design purpose made for the job. Programs like Bryce for example, have a 100% purpose-made design, whereas DS is more like a skinned OS interface. Poser has been getting like that lately, but even so, those few remaining elements make all the difference.

If SM ever removed the trackball and lighting globes for example, users would take massive issue with that because they're aspects that make Poser, Poser. Having heads and hands and globes with arrows are much more instantly representative of a function than a bunch of similar-looking buttons on an OS interface like DS has. The designers of Bryce and Poser understood this, and that's why their products were the most pleasurable to use back in the day, and still are today.

@Heddheld
Imagine picking up the chair you're sat on and moving it to another part of your room. Every movement you made was already rendered, and that's exactly the same sort of thing you'd get from having Unreal Engine in the viewport, move a chair and the render was done even as you were moving it.

No need for a "Render" button ;-)

@Vilters
Is that SR the one with the mirror fix or is it newer than that?

has paste got broken again ??

Kia Krause is a blast from the past ;-) .....loved his photosoap and KPT with its funky interface, didn't mind Bryce too much mainly 'cos I was from an autocad B/G so pumping in the numbers was normal for me never ever used them "balls" on the side , poser showed me how to use them lol then it was blender and I hate all other gui's now ..........blender makes life soooooooo easy

@pumeco will have a peep at unreal AFTER I run true image so I can get it off again rofl , have a look over my G'kids shoulder now an then and never seen a game that looks good let alone realistic

"have a look over my G'kids shoulder now an then and never seen a game that looks good let alone realistic"

Yes, because in terms of art "good" and "realistic" are synonymous. I'm nearing 50, love gaming, and have seen countless fantastic, beautiful things and environments therein... all of which I could enjoy with immersive freedom. Hopefully I can be around for another 50 to see where all of this is going. Sorry, of course you're entitled to your own perception, but comments like the above raise my hackles... especially on a presupposed ART forum.

don't get your hackles up mate (it can mess with your blood pressure)

game art is good (some is great) so maybe I could have worded that better but games look like games

as for age I stopped games at around 50 was wasting so much time sat playing ........unreal tournament lol

Have DAZ chosen wisely with IRay?

No - cause it's not realtime!

IMHO Daz has chosen wisely to giver users of their FREE program an industry standard internal PBR.

This move makes the necessity of $$buying alternatives$$ to "3Delight" like Octane or even the Reality for LUX plugin Moot.

They understand that their content buyers do not all have the $12,000 worth of graphics hardware one would likely need to get

this "Real time performance" that has you so excited

Will SM chose wisely with Unreal Engine?

I predict that SM will Not implement the unreal Engine

Not soon...not ever..

Consider that they cant seem to afford to hire a skilled

organic humanoid model maker to build native poser figures

that are not laughable.

They cant implement a Decent,Functional IK solver after nearly 20 years!

and according to Steve coopers final Webinar they are planning to take poser into "the CAD Market"...... Wha.....the CAD market!!!!!

I could be wrong of course

But I have difficulty imagining SM Suddenly Figuring out a way to Shoehorn the unreal Engine into that Cruft Ridden, Vestigial "kai kraus" throwback UI from a

bygone century

But time will tell

@Wolf
You're being arrogant beyond belief. Krause is highly respected for the interfaces he designed (and rightly so because they have stood the test of time).
And SM do have a very talented humanoid capable of creating extremely good meshes, he's called Teyon.

I suppose you're a better interface designer than Krause and a better sculptor than Teyon, man, you got some skills then.

As for IRay and DAZ's decision to use it, of course it's good that it has it, but my point is that it's an engine that is not optimized for realtime performance, so it will never be better in that respect than one that is. My point was actually quite a simple one; that "Realtime Rendering" is the future, so it's best that SM start dipping their toes into that one instead of wasting time with stuff that is not optimised for realtime.

Developing plugins for, and integrating into, non-realtime products is a waste of development in the long run, because every effort spent on it is effort that would have been better spent integrating a "realtime" engine. If they waste time taking the non-realtime route, it will eventually bite them when they find the competition have been investing in realtime.

Like I said, waiting for renders is rapidly becoming history, whereas "Realtime" is the future.

An interesting situation is with Reallusion right now, I mean talk about bad decision making.

Awesome program, awesome animation tools, designed from the ground-up for being "realtime". Problem is, it has the shittiest DX-based renderer I've ever seen, and how did they try to get around that? In my opinion, it was creating a bridge to "Indigo" no less, something that is anything but realtime. Due to the idiotic decision making, I've stopped purchasing iClone and kinda regret supporting them early on. I bought into iClone BECAUSE it was a realtime environment. It cannot get more idiotic than to concentrate on a bridge to "Indigo" when it's own realtime engine is so ourageously poor, even though iClone is designed for realtime. Freaking hillarious decision making that was.

"Backward" really isn't sufficient enough to describe that one :-D

So you see, don't assume that these companies always know what they're doing, because they don't. Some of the business decisions I've seen made by DAZ, Reallusion and SM, show sub-zero understanding of their userbases a lot of the time. Reallusion's behaviour especially of late, has alienated quite a few people and I'm not in the least bit surprised, they have made some utterly backward decisions just lately.

The only good thing about that is it will give SM time to hang on to some customers, and gain more, by bringing Poser's animation tools up to speed.

From what little I read, it does work realtime in OpenGL 3

I'm sure I'll download it when available, but I doubt I'll use it. However, I do have to admit to being touched by all the concern from the daz guys that us poser users are falling behind the times. :) It's nice to know that someone cares.

An interesting situation is with Reallusion right now, I mean talk about bad decision making.

Awesome program, awesome animation tools, designed from the ground-up for being "realtime". Problem is, it has the shittiest DX-based renderer I've ever seen, and how did they try to get around that? In my opinion, it was creating a bridge to "Indigo" no less, something that is anything but realtime. Due to the idiotic decision making, I've stopped purchasing iClone and kinda regret supporting them early on. I bought into iClone BECAUSE it was a realtime environment. It cannot get more idiotic than to concentrate on a bridge to "Indigo" when it's own realtime engine is so ourageously poor, even though iClone is designed for realtime. Freaking hillarious decision making that was.

"Backward" really isn't sufficient enough to describe that one :-D

True...It's like role reversal, from "realtime" to single frame rendering lol. If the new engine was a game engine like UT4, then definately a step up. I would have just upgraded the actual realtime engine, and forget about indigo, unless that engine can work as fast and in realtime as the default engine, I do not see the point lol. We already have Daz and Studio for stills:) Iclone is supposed to have focus on animation, and this new indigo engine from what I can see, totally goes against what the core of the program offers or is designed to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mLPBAFPAvc&list=TL1Pf1IDdFI00

Exactly, Zev, sounds like we think very much alike.

That's nothing though, the Indigo thing. What's even more backward is that they spent time adding in DX9 compatibility for those who thibnk using 15 year old graphics cards is going to do them any favours with modern software. You have to laugh at that one, they finally reachjed DX11 and it still looks like DX9 on a bad day. To add insult to injury, catering for dinosaurs was obviously higher on their priorities than making their new DX11 renderer look worthy of the DX11 tag.

Yup, a lot of backward decision making from them lately, but at least they're not wasting my money on it. I knew there was something wrong when they announced it, banging on about Indigo and not a bloody thing about what actually matters to iClone users, the built-in realtime renderer which still looks like crap for a DX11 renderer. Hell, it looks like crap even by DX9 standards, nevermind DX11. The only positive thing is that they say they're adding PBR materials to it soon. Unfortunately though, no mention of improvements to the environment and post-processing effects to go with it.

Can't see me parting with any money for version 6, but who knows, they might surprise everyone. Personally, I think Reallusion are clueless when it comes to realtime engines. They are easily the best at implementing realtime animation abilities, stuff like that, but I reckon they need to bring-in an expert in DX11 programming to sort their realtime renderer out :-D

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Reality ten times faster in Reality 4.1.
I would pay for that upgrade. Thanks for posting that RorrKonn.

:)

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Sounds promising, nice lengthy video as well, I'll check it out over tea tonight.
I suppose if it's 10X faster it might be a lot more bearable for me to use, which would be great because I love the output from Luxrender.

"I suppose you're a better interface designer than Krause and a better sculptor than Teyon, man, you got some skills then."

No I am Not either.

My opinion of the Kraus inspired poser,Bryce& carrara interface

designs are based on my experience using those apps since the mid 1990's and later moving on to other

more functional interface designs to create complex animations/Simulations in professional apps.

Peoples program experience will vary as will their opinions

.

neither of these aformentioned apps have proper tools for mangaging large scenes with multiple elements and cameras for animation& visual effects production.

Until some one can show me otherwise ,my opinion remains unchanged regarding this matter.

On the Matter of the default poser figures since pose 7 .

Well the Community & market has spoken clearly regarding their

asthetics,desirability &technical functionality.

feel free to browse the history of this very forum and read for oneself, if so inclined .

"

An interesting situation is with Reallusion right now, I mean talk about bad decision making.

Awesome program, awesome animation tools, designed from the ground-up for being "realtime". Problem is, it has the shittiest DX-based renderer I've ever seen, and how did they try to get around that? In my opinion, it was creating a bridge to "Indigo" no less, something that is anything but realtime. Due to the idiotic decision making, I've stopped purchasing iClone and kinda regret supporting them early on. I bought into iClone BECAUSE it was a realtime environment. It cannot get more idiotic than to concentrate on a bridge to "Indigo" when it's own realtime engine is so ourageously poor, even though iClone is designed for realtime. Freaking hillarious decision making that was."

I Actually agree in part with the above.

First, I never cared about the Iclones rendering or display

any more so than I cared about Endorphins primitive display.

I got those apps ,when I partially migrated to Windows,

for one reason only.

Their POWERFUL motion creation &RE-TARGETING tools.

I am an animator/VFX enthusiast.

who has no problem using apps dedicated only to Character animation in realtime like IClone & Endorphin.

as long as I can export to poser compatible BVH to be ultimately rendered in Maxon Cinema4D where I have professional scene management & camera tools.

and Plugins to bring in Fluid Simulations from Realflow

,Load poser content directly from poser runtimes with full poser figure format functionality natively INSIDE Cinema4D.

To say nothing of a direct,camera & 3D Data compositing bridge to After Effects and other finishing tools.

RealIllusions Decision to Create a bridge to Indigo was IMHO

....Stupid!!

Why??

Well those low poly Game characters ,that we use in Iclone,

to create this Amazing Character Motion will look like crap in any render engine including Indigo.

but who cares ???

we dont buy Iclone to use its figures in final deliverables

As for importing characters from other apps via the 3D Exchange
(Maya,Max,Daz studio genesis),

Well Most people do that only to retarget motion to the rig

but ultimately send it back to their Main application for environment set up and final rendering.

RealIllusion has introduced no new animation tools in Iclone 6

(Not that Iclone Needs any).

So I will be skipping this version and continue to use 5.5 along with 3D exchange of course.

https://youtu.be/FbGm66DCWok

The term real time is pretty broad, and I think most of us would be happy with seconds per frame vs. minutes or hours. Something that I was just thinking is that the main difference between real time and even GPU renderers is that real time engines only show their output differently. No matter how fast computers get, Poser's Firefly can never be real time because it calculates buckets to the screen rather than a framebuffer. Unless the buckets were filled and moved to the buffer in less that your frame rate, it's a process you'll always be likely to see.

Unreal and Unity are both rather complex platforms to learn, and wouldn't be very cost-effective for Poser devs to implement at this point, considering the majority of Poser's users are hobbyists with low-end off-the-shelf walmart machines.

For the more advanced users there is FBX import/export included in the game dev version. FBX exists to port your scenes and animations over to unreal or unity, or whatever other game engine or software package you want to use that is FBX compatible. Back during the release of game dev, Steve Cooper stated that they had been working very closely with Unity developers when implementing FBX. Now, don't you think that if they thought that implementing a real-time game engine as their renderer would be cost-effective and worth the time investment, they would have done so then? I'm sure it's not something they haven't thought about, but for whatever reasons they've chosen not to for now. Plus, Unity, Unreal, etc, are just like Blender and D|S, with constant updates, which would require them to always be updating Poser to keep up with the changes whichever of those engines they wanted to implement were publishing that week. For the number of users that would be interested in it, the balance just isn't there.

@Wolf
I do enjoy discussing stuff with you, but I'm not going to while you're in arrogance mode!

@Moogal
I wouldn't be so bothered about actual realtime if only the Firefly renderer would harness the power of my CUDA Cores to accelerate the rendering. I donlt expect it to behave like octane, but it would be nice to have it use that computing power somehow. I know Poser's Firefly gets a lot of flack, but personally I think it's very fine render engine with a very powerful node system. I'd love to see it get a performance boost from the GPU.

@Shane
But Unreal Engine being difficult to use is irrelevant when it's running inside the Poser viewport. It being in Poser would give us genuine realtime rendering, and at the same time, make it as easy to use as the Poser interface you're used to using right now. It would also attract Unreal Engine users to Poser, because they'd have an easy to use environment for creating and working with figures for Unreal Engine, and due to the popularity of such things, I reckon having that inside Poser can only be good for sales, development, and promotion.

I think the move towards catering for game development was a good one, but they need to bring that environment into the familiar interface of Poser. There can be nothing better for a game developer than being able to develiop their game content in an environment that uses the exact same renderer as the game engine they're developing for. People might say, ah, but what if I want to develop for Unity or CryEngine. Unfortunately, those engines arenlt on the same level for reltime rendering as unreal Engine is, so SM would be better to go for Unreal Engine if they did this.

They have to choose the right engine, because if they don't, the competition will choose it instead, they'll use that engine to pull in the customers. So it's not just a question of getting a realtime engine into Poser's viewport, it has to be the right engine. The right engine for a realism point of view, the one that demonstrates the best expertise, is Unreal Engine. That's not to dismiss the competing engines, they're amazing as well, but they're just not as good as Unreal Engine in a visual sense, and if such an engine makes it's way into Poser, realism is going to be vital.

I realise this is all fantasy and wishful thinking, but seriously, having Unreal Engine running live in the Poser viewport would be seriously addictive!

have you seen this one then ??

might be a bit of octane in there ;-) since Otoy grabbed that a while back

@Moogal
I wouldn't be so bothered about actual realtime if only the Firefly renderer would harness the power of my CUDA Cores to accelerate the rendering. I donlt expect it to behave like octane, but it would be nice to have it use that computing power somehow. I know Poser's Firefly gets a lot of flack, but personally I think it's very fine render engine with a very powerful node system. I'd love to see it get a performance boost from the GPU.

I wasn't complaining about Firefly at all, just noticing that the way it renders in buckets (and also the way the progressive renderers work) is very different than the game engines' method. With a "real time" renderer you don't normally see the frames being created, rather a frame is displayed until the next one replaces it. I was just thinking that no matter how fast computers become, Firefly would never work as a real time engine for that reason.

Yes, some kind of OpenCL optimization would be nice, but I expect to see the viewport further improved before Firefly is able to leverage GPU resources.

"RealIllusions Decision to Create a bridge to Indigo was IMHO

....Stupid!!

Why??

Well those low poly Game characters ,that we use in Iclone,

to create this Amazing Character Motion will look like crap in any render engine including Indigo.

but who cares ???

we dont buy Iclone to use its figures in final deliverables"

I don't even... iClone now supports Genesis2 figures, so maybe that justifies the rendering bridge? Since you're making broad statements about why people don't buy iClone would you care to actually tell us why people do? What are those figures for?

How are people responding with normal size text? I was able to do it until recently but now when I quote I end up with big a bigger font.

How are people responding with normal size text? I was able to do it until recently but now when I quote I end up with big a bigger font.

Notice the darker grey bar to the right of the quoted text. That signifies a quote. You need to make sure your response starts after the quote. You can hit the down arrow key to jump to the next line below the quote. If you just hit enter then type, your text will be an extension of the quote and share the larger font size. There's currently no way to separate multiple quotes in a single post that I'm aware of.

How are people responding with normal size text? I was able to do it until recently but now when I quote I end up with big a bigger font.

Notice the darker grey bar to the right of the quoted text. That signifies a quote. You need to make sure your response starts after the quote. You can hit the down arrow key to jump to the next line below the quote. If you just hit enter then type, your text will be an extension of the quote and share the larger font size. There's currently no way to separate multiple quotes in a single post that I'm aware of.

Ok, I got it to work this time, tried to use down arrow before so I don't know why it did not work. Those bars aren't displaying right for me. They were sort of there for a second as I scrolled down, but are gone now that I've started typing...

@Shane
But Unreal Engine being difficult to use is irrelevant when it's running inside the Poser viewport. It being in Poser would give us genuine realtime rendering, and at the same time, make it as easy to use as the Poser interface you're used to using right now. It would also attract Unreal Engine users to Poser, because they'd have an easy to use environment for creating and working with figures for Unreal Engine, and due to the popularity of such things, I reckon having that inside Poser can only be good for sales, development, and promotion.

I think the move towards catering for game development was a good one, but they need to bring that environment into the familiar interface of Poser. There can be nothing better for a game developer than being able to develiop their game content in an environment that uses the exact same renderer as the game engine they're developing for. People might say, ah, but what if I want to develop for Unity or CryEngine. Unfortunately, those engines arenlt on the same level for reltime rendering as unreal Engine is, so SM would be better to go for Unreal Engine if they did this.

They have to choose the right engine, because if they don't, the competition will choose it instead, they'll use that engine to pull in the customers. So it's not just a question of getting a realtime engine into Poser's viewport, it has to be the right engine. The right engine for a realism point of view, the one that demonstrates the best expertise, is Unreal Engine. That's not to dismiss the competing engines, they're amazing as well, but they're just not as good as Unreal Engine in a visual sense, and if such an engine makes it's way into Poser, realism is going to be vital.

I realise this is all fantasy and wishful thinking, but seriously, having Unreal Engine running live in the Poser viewport would be seriously addictive!

Any engine they would choose would still require licensing. In this case, in order to get Unreal into Poser's viewport and bipass the Poser user's need to learn how to use Unreal, it would require Poser devs to figure out a way for Unreal to understand Poser's functionality. You're basically asking Unreal to behave like Poser in the Poser viewport, and retain its "realtime rendering". That would be combining the functionality of both programs. Unreal still has to compile all those shaders and recompile every time the slightest change is made. And as for licensing, yes the engine is free to use, and the source code is available to be modified, but that doesn't make it truly open source. Anyone that uses it, whether they modify it or keep it as-is, still owes a 5% royalty to Epic for everything over $3K quarterly. Truly open source usually means that you can take it and do whatever you want with it and generally not owe anything to the original developer, except perhaps acknowledgement in the credits. Definitely not the case with Unreal.

Yeah, it's 5% of your revenue, too. That may sound like chicken feed to some, but when you realize the kinds of margins that smaller software companies/departments are working with, it can actually be a fairly hefty sum.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that real time preview is the future of digital animation, if in fact real time VR preview isn't even more so. But we're sort of in a transition period of computing where it still takes a relatively long time for software to be developed. At some point, not too far in the future, when humans are no longer doing most of the coding, development will speed up so dramatically that we won't know what hit us. But right now, we're still crawling around like worms in wet soil. So it takes a while for newish technology to be adapted and adopted. It won't be this way forever, though....

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I'll admit, I'm no coder and I don't know the ins and outs, but I get the impression it would be quite painless to integrate Unreal Engine into Poser.

SM's job would probably be quite simple, a simple 'Mapping' job, something like this:

Get the ready-made Unreal Engine viewport to display where the current Poser viewport is normally displayed.
Get the ready-made Unreal Engine Material Node system to display where the current Poser nodes are normally displayed.
Map any relevant controls to the Poser dials etc.
Add an option in the preferences that allows either the standard Poser or Unreal Engine viewport to run on bootup.
Take Posers navigation controls and simply map them to UInreal Engine so that it controls the viewport, just like Poser normally does.
Do the same with objects and body parts, simply map them to the Unreal Engine equivalent.

I suppose technically, what i'm getting at is something like when you import an FBX, you get to assign bones to where you want them. Basically, all SM need to do is a bit of hard-wired coding that maps Poser's behaviour to UE's behavior, or rather, UE's behaviour to Poser's behaviour.

Regards the licence, that should not be a problem, they could effectively make "Poser UE Edition" the Pro version of Poser, and you never have to concern yourself with the licence unless you use the Unreal Engine renderer option commercially and make more money than their threshold. Using it for what most people use Poser for, that licence threshold isn't going to effect them anyway.

And remember, even with a threshold, it's still better that the realtime engine is there than not there, you don't have to use it, you could just set it to Firefly in preferences and it would be exactly as it is now.

In Poser's Preferences Options:

Selecting Firefly = Poser Viewport, Firefly renderer, and the Firefly node system in the Material Room (basically, Poser as it is right now).
Selecting Unreal Engine = Realtime Unreal Engine and Rendering in the viewport, and the Unreal Engine node system in the Material Room.

Of course I could be wrong, and probably am, but it really does seem to me like it would be case of mapping, the hard work is done by Unreal Engine.

@Heddheld
Yup, saw it, pretty damn neat, and need I say it, another indication that SM need to hurry-up and get a realtime renderer into Poser!

" Since you're making broad statements about why people don't buy iClone would you care to actually tell us why people do? What are those figures for?"

Iclone is basicly a game engine with very low poly Character rigs

that you can use in "realtime" to quickly create very realistic

Character animations.

http://www.reallusion.com/iclone/pipeline/flow_character.aspx

Yes some people use its Figures for Pre-visualization renders of scenes&concepts
( within Iclone)

However its true strength is the Optional "3D exchange"

motion retargeting Application that takes your rig from your

chosen app (MAX ,Maya Daz studio)

and retargets those amazing Character motions you created & previewed in "realtime" and sends the motion the Data back your

rig in your Full CG Application for rendering.

This is the exact pipeline offered by the $$uber expensive$$

AutoDesk motionbuilder.

Except the cost of Iclone pro with the 3D exchange option is right around $500 USD as opposed to the $3000, or whatever,

AutoDesk is charging to Motionbuilder these days.

" iClone now supports Genesis2 figures, so maybe that justifies the rendering bridge? ?"

Look...I get... it RealIllusion wants to provide a more complete

internal rendering solution for customers who dont use MAX,Maya etc. and would like to complete their final projects within Iclone

Indeed there is a Daz user who is making a Movie with

IClone 6,Genesis and rendering it in Indigo and it is looking great!!

but he warns that you need hardware that would make most highend gamers drool.

Not everyone can afford that, but bloody good for those who can.