wolf359 opened this issue on Sep 06, 2015 · 31 posts
wolf359 posted Sun, 06 September 2015 at 9:51 AM
Looks pretty interesting for game developers https://youtu.be/b5bVDsNP6Tg
Looks like Realillusion is looking to Challenge Daz & Smith Micro in this area.
infinity10 posted Sun, 06 September 2015 at 10:05 AM
I am particularly intrigued by their human figure generation item. Very keen on that.
Eternal Hobbyist
Kazam561 posted Sun, 06 September 2015 at 2:29 PM
I'd not looked at the tutorial for this before but it looks like they picked features they liked from both programs and created similar features. On the library design, right similar to Poser, and on the motion design, the highlight part image is very similar to D/S Puppeteer (which I don't think is being used any longer but was a cool idea). It's interesting looking. I wonder how long the render times for animation take?
The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.
Kazam561 posted Sun, 06 September 2015 at 2:35 PM
Just read some reviews on Iclone 5 on Amazon and you might want to read them before buying. Things are not great with that software apparently in how the company patches and updates versions.
The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.
infinity10 posted Mon, 07 September 2015 at 6:21 AM
Kazam561 posted at 7:17PM Mon, 07 September 2015 - #4226806
Just read some reviews on Iclone 5 on Amazon and you might want to read them before buying. Things are not great with that software apparently in how the company patches and updates versions.
Yeah - I found 2 reviews which were rather detailed.
If I may add the URLs here, for the sake of discussion. If these URLs are inappropriate for this forum, I accept them being removed by forum administrators.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2ENHNXF4O3OIQ/ref=cm_cr_pr_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00AEDXMGC
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R194OPNFRDL656/ref=cm_cr_pr_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00AEDXMGC
Eternal Hobbyist
Kazam561 posted Mon, 07 September 2015 at 6:38 AM
Yep. It seems like some questionable design choices and business practices, especially given the price for the pro version. After watching one of the tutorials I was struck by how much the character (after being morphed) looked like characters rendered with an early version of the Unreal Engine (for gaming), maybe version two. Even version 3 had a problem with almost every character being over muscled. An example would be Batman Arkham Asylum James Gordon works out at a gym apparently as a body builder in his spare time. :)
The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.
Morkonan posted Tue, 08 September 2015 at 4:13 AM
In my opinion, iClone is an "also ran" low-quality competitor to DAZ and SM. It's a product that someone buys if they don't know about the other ones in its niche. It might have a few good points, but even a broken clock is going to be correct twice a day...
wolf359 posted Thu, 10 September 2015 at 8:51 AM
"In my opinion, iClone is an "also ran" low-quality competitor to DAZ and SM. It's a product that someone buys if they don't know about the other ones in its niche."
In My opinion iclone is product that someone buys after years of frustration waiting for posers animation tools to be upgraded from Their 1997 era functionality.
While I love Amazons review system and have posted a few angry product rants on Amazon myself, One of those reviews ,linked here, was largely a bunch of "Nerdy McNerd" technobabble by someone who seemed to still prefer windows XP and the others were by people who thought Iclone was a Still image render program Like poser/Daz.
You wont see any angry Iclone reviews by people who have tried to create complex character animations in poser/Daz such as Characters running up& Down hills & ramps or peddling along on bicycles.
This is because We understand that this is the type of complex Character motion for which Iclone was Designed. with the option to export BVH to poser/Daz or FBX to other programs & Game engines.
Iclones Crappy looking DX11 Engine is what enables its realtime Character Motion creation& editing. Anyone who needs to render anything better than a low res DX11 animatic is typically exporting that motion Data to either game engines or other, external program characters for quality renders.
Dale B posted Thu, 10 September 2015 at 1:46 PM
What Wolf Said. I've been finding Iclone a godsend; very much a poor man's Motion Builder. And if you get it on sale, you can get the Pro version and the 3dXchang program for about $350 (or that's what I got it for. Need to keep your eyes open as the sales change regularly). Would I prefer an $8,000 OptiTrack mocap setup, oh hell yes! And if I can ever afford it, come to pappa! Until that time, I want as much capability and flexibility as I can beg, borrow, or steal out of my programs. I wouldn't bother messing with Iclone 5's rendering abilities; it looks like a crappy last gen game engine machinima render. But for importing set pieces from Poser, building motions in and around them, then exporting them into the identical set up in Poser for fine work and either final rendering or export to a Vue scene for final render, it is an excellent tool. If Poser ever gets the kind of animation tools that Iclone has, then it would be retired and all my work would be done in Poser. Until/unless that happens, its build a pipeline with whatever tools work. Not what tools are currently 'hot'.
estherau posted Sat, 12 September 2015 at 11:10 AM
I don't think iclone works on mac (and i use mac) Love esther
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
wolf359 posted Sat, 12 September 2015 at 4:12 PM
No it has no mac version But anyone serious about CG animation Is using Windows anyway. That's why I bought a second machine.
A Windows 7 PC
estherau posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 5:29 AM
Oh, so aren't pixar using macs anymore then for their productions? I guess 2014 is old news. http://www.businessinsider.com.au/pixar-uses-apples-mac-pro-to-make-films-2014-1
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
Male_M3dia posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 6:37 AM
estherau posted at 7:36AM Sun, 13 September 2015 - #4228033
Oh, so aren't pixar using macs anymore then for their productions? I guess 2014 is old news. http://www.businessinsider.com.au/pixar-uses-apples-mac-pro-to-make-films-2014-1
No they aren't any more as of 2015.
http://www.studiodaily.com/2015/08/pixar-licenses-quasi-monte-carlo-rendering-methods-nvidia/
estherau posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 6:54 AM
It doesn't' say anything about that tech not working on mac. In fact this seems to suggest they would.
http://graphics.pixar.com/people/rob/
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
Male_M3dia posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 7:13 AM
estherau posted at 8:07AM Sun, 13 September 2015 - #4228043
It doesn't' say anything about that tech not working on mac. In fact this seems to suggest they would.
http://graphics.pixar.com/people/rob/
Mac, especially their Mac Pros use ATI tech, not nvidia. They may use macs for some of the design, but looks like they're moving from cpu rendering to render their movies with GPU,which apple isn't supporting. I think I read that their last movie used about 2000 computers and 30 hours to render a frame, so using the gpu to reduce the hardware needed would be a smarter choice.
estherau posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 7:17 AM
We can use either nvidia or ATI on a mac. not only that it has thunderbolt ports so an external chasis can be connected ie eGPU if one is keen and has enough money for that.
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
Male_M3dia posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 7:23 AM
estherau posted at 8:20AM Sun, 13 September 2015 - #4228046
We can use either nvidia or ATI on a mac. not only that it has thunderbolt ports so an external chasis can be connected ie eGPU if one is keen and has enough money for that.
If you're trying to be cost effective, you're buying the appropriate hardware. You can use thunderbolt, but is it going to be as effective as a gpu installed internally? Most likely not. Those macs will probably be ditched for GPU render farms.
estherau posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 7:30 AM
thunderbolt is okay externally i've been told (not quite as good as internal but not bad). well lets not guess what pixar are actually doing ie are they really throwing away their shiny macs that they used last year for their animations? People who use macs quite like them I've found. So anyway I've emailed Rob Cook to ask, and maybe he'll get back to me. I got an away message from him until the end of this month. I'll keep you posted if I find out anything. Okay, back to your iclone that doesn't work on macs. Love esther
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
Male_M3dia posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 7:41 AM
estherau posted at 8:38AM Sun, 13 September 2015 - #4228048
thunderbolt is okay externally i've been told (not quite as good as internal but not bad). well lets not guess what pixar are actually doing ie are they really throwing away their shiny macs that they used last year for their animations? People who use macs quite like them I've found. So anyway I've emailed Rob Cook to ask, and maybe he'll get back to me. I got an away message from him until the end of this month. I'll keep you posted if I find out anything. Okay, back to your iclone that doesn't work on macs. Love esther
Who is guessing? The article says they are licensing Nvidia tech and incorporating into their software for rendering. They going to be buying nvidia hardware. If apple doesn't provide machines that use nvidia hardware, they simply won't be bought. The most obvious solution is nvidia's render farms which do not require a mac or pc at all.
Also considering that apple isn't supporting CUDA, dropped out of the alliance to provide a uniform GPU api spec (Vulcan i believe) in favor of their Metal api, it makes sense for Pixar to pull out of apple hardware for standard equipment that will do the job of accelerating their rendering.
estherau posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 7:50 AM
It's still possible to stick an Nvidia Tesla GPU computation engine in a Thunderbolt (interface) PCI Express expansion box, and attach that to a Mac (computer), so yes I'd say you're making a lot of assumptions.
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
Male_M3dia posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 8:00 AM
estherau posted at 8:55AM Sun, 13 September 2015 - #4228050
It's still possible to stick an Nvidia Tesla GPU computation engine in a Thunderbolt (interface) PCI Express expansion box, and attach that to a Mac (computer), so yes I'd say you're making a lot of assumptions.
I suggest you do your research on how Pixar does their rendering; what you're suggesting is fine for a home computer, but they are doing render farms, thus what you're suggesting isn't feasible. That's why Pixar licensed Nvidia tech to accelerate their rendering of their movies. They wouldn't need to buy macs, they would simply send the data to nvidia boxes which contain MULTIPLE video cards and would cost the same as one mac pro, but render many times faster.
So rather than 2000 macs, they would just use a few hundred gpu render boxes. Makes sense now, right? Cost effective, not emotional and not feasible.
estherau posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 8:14 AM
but all the expensive nvidia cards say they actually are mac compatible http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/motion-graphics/nvidia-aims-change-way-animation-studios-post-houses-work/ Im just going to ask pixar (if they'll talk to a pleb like me) so I will get back to you if and when the guy writes back. Remember pixar do their own proprietary software and they probably do use a lot of different tools. They don't need to buy macs because the already have and use macs. And they can use whatever they need to render after they set up their animations. You often just guess and say well it must be this way because that's what makes sense to me, but I don't think you've done your homework either or have all the facts. At least I'm writing to the pixar guy to try to find out the truth without guessing.
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
Male_M3dia posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 9:06 AM
estherau posted at 9:51AM Sun, 13 September 2015 - #4228057
but all the expensive nvidia cards say they actually are mac compatible http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/motion-graphics/nvidia-aims-change-way-animation-studios-post-houses-work/ Im just going to ask pixar (if they'll talk to a pleb like me) so I will get back to you if and when the guy writes back. Remember pixar do their own proprietary software and they probably do use a lot of different tools. They don't need to buy macs because the already have and use macs. And they can use whatever they need to render after they set up their animations. You often just guess and say well it must be this way because that's what makes sense to me, but I don't think you've done your homework either or have all the facts. At least I'm writing to the pixar guy to try to find out the truth without guessing.
LOL I have, but seriously you haven't and you're resorting to emotion because you haven't. And you probably haven't grasped how businesses work either when solutions are implemented. Daisychaining a single card with a cable, and having a bunch of cables and external powersupplies (not to mention the power and cooling you'll need to implementing this) makes absolutely no sense. Implementing technology to reduce the amount of hardware so you're using does make sense, and this is what this about. If they're implementing a gpu solutions (which contain devices with multiple gpus), they are removing hardware that isn't cost effective, meaning cpus not supporting the technology. If you actually watch some of nvidia tech videos, it would make sense to move to their all in one, os-independent units on a rack and proper wiring and cooling rather than having computers with a bunch of cables, power cords, etc hanging everywhere, and requiring a bunch of server room space which is apple's current solution. Remember Apple pretty much jettisoned their enterprise business in terms of personal and individual solutions from their 1U devices from years ago. When tasks need to be done in businesses, brand loyalty doesn't mean much if it costs more in investment and time. Emotions are better left at the front door.
EDIT and if you really want to be shocked, you should see how maintenance and returns are handled for enterprise customers... Major customers are directed to bring their equipment into the Apple store. If you can imagine lugging a bunch a macs into a busy store with customers window shopping and you're trying to flag down an employee, you'll quick realize how efficient that sounds... especially at Christmas.
Keith posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 10:40 AM
estherau posted at 9:38AM Sun, 13 September 2015 - #4228057
but all the expensive nvidia cards say they actually are mac compatible http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/motion-graphics/nvidia-aims-change-way-animation-studios-post-houses-work/ Im just going to ask pixar (if they'll talk to a pleb like me) so I will get back to you if and when the guy writes back. Remember pixar do their own proprietary software and they probably do use a lot of different tools. They don't need to buy macs because the already have and use macs. And they can use whatever they need to render after they set up their animations. You often just guess and say well it must be this way because that's what makes sense to me, but I don't think you've done your homework either or have all the facts. At least I'm writing to the pixar guy to try to find out the truth without guessing.
They'd be using something like the Quadro VCA for their rendering. (http://www.nvidia.com/object/visual-computing-appliance.html)
wolf359 posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 1:47 PM
Just for the record I was not fanning the flames of the Tired,age old Mac Vs PC debate.
I have been a Mac user over 19 years. I should have clarified that anyone who is serious specifically about the most cutting edge Character animation solutions will be very frustrated if he is mac only ….this is a fact. And please don’t post links to the mac version of Maya because of the really vital third party plugins Are windows only and the same rings true for Maxon cinema4D ,which I use. If all one ever does is render still images then the Mac will serve you well. But for creating complex Character animation Data That needs be retargeted across a variety of Character programs, the best solutions are on windows followed by Linux. And as for pixar all of their character tools are likely proprietary so calling them a “mac based Shop” Is sort of like calling NASA a “poser based shop” due to some simple animatics they may have made using P6 “James”.
Male_M3dia posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 2:11 PM
I also have several macs here as well, but my work horse machine are my PC towers since they have the hardware, cooling and psu requirements to run renders for hours or days without kicking the case fans in high gear. The macs are basically photoshop, graphics and entertainment machines (with occasional zbrush and modo) and the PCs are for the more powerful programs and videogames.
EldritchCellar posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 4:39 PM
Lol. SOS.
W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD
Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5
My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG
estherau posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 7:29 PM
I'l let you know if I hear from PIXAR.
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
Keith posted Sun, 13 September 2015 at 11:40 PM
estherau posted at 10:30PM Sun, 13 September 2015 - #4228174
I'l let you know if I hear from PIXAR.
There's two issues here. The first is rendering the film. Apple has never been involved in that for Pixar. Originally they used Sun servers, then in 2003 switched to Intel, and more recently moving to NVIDIA GPU from the Xeons.
In doing the work up to the actual rendering they've used Apples.
So when you talk about "making the movie", what precisely are you talking about? The actual rendering, which has never been on Apples, or the keyboard and mouse work that is sent to the rendering, because there they've used Apples.
3DFineries posted Mon, 14 September 2015 at 7:00 AM
This thread is about I-Clone & game developers, please stay on topic. Do NOT turn this into a PC vs Mac discussion.
Have a creative day!
********
wolf359 posted Mon, 14 September 2015 at 8:43 AM
"There's two issues here. The first is rendering the film. Apple has never been involved in that for Pixar. Originally they used Sun servers, then in 2003 switched to Intel, and more recently moving to NVIDIA GPU from the Xeons. In doing the work up to the actual rendering they've used Apples."
Even if we Assume that pixars proprietary tool "Presto" has an internal Mac build that means nothing to the rest of mankind in choosing what OS to use for our 3D character animation since we dont have access to Presto
Pixars presto in action https://vimeo.com/90687696
But on the matter of Iclone All macs today are just Expensive PC's purpose built to run the Mac OS thus anyone, so inclined,is welcome to install a windows partition on their intel Mac and run Iclone.