Dave-So opened this issue on Sep 20, 2015 · 238 posts
Dave-So posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 10:27 AM
Yes, she has been around since 2006 .. quite awhile actually. But now, I see even here much more content being developed for Genesis 3 figure .... a lot. Time to use a new figure?
Humankind has not
woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound
together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle,
1854
ghonma posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 10:58 AM
I guess you could wait for v2016 to see what (if anything) the new native content will be like. I'm not very optimistic though.
WandW posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 12:01 PM
If you can do what you need to do with V4, why switch?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
ssgbryan posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 12:18 PM
She doesn't work in Poser, so you would be looking at changing software - good luck with that, considering the state of Daz software.
I'd recommend taking a closer look. Content for G3F is rolling out here - notice how little is being released over at DAZ. While over there, notice how most of the content for G3F is just rehash of what was made for G2, G1, or V4. The only thing new for G3F is a fat chick. Then go visit the forums - G3F is getting a lot more pushback from customers.
The vendors are just making hay while the sun is shining - they have the DS userbase to themselves, nothing wrong with taking advantage of it.
There are many choices of figures available I would recommend giving them a look.
Kazam561 posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 12:53 PM
Technically, wait a year and V8 will be out along with G4. Pick a character you like, and use the character for as long as you like. I still use TY2 even though there's not a lot of content. I like the face on TY2 a lot and think it's a good look that's not too anime, and not quite too realistic. Terai Yuki 2 from CP which if you've never heard of is often referred to as TY2. There is no go with one specific figure. It's all up to you, the user. If you want to create clothing for figures that don't have a lot of content, there are free programs to help like Wings3d or Blender. Blender can import and even render (though you'd need to add bones to the figure for rigging if using the figure specifically in Blender).
The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.
wolf359 posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 1:40 PM
Hi Before you go “all in” with the G3 Female” Be sure to check the thread in the Daz Commons titled: “ why I wont be buying anything else for the G3 Female”
As far as leaving V4.. Well.. as others have said you can Endure the vicissitudes of the various Kludges to get genesis figures into poser with any useful clothing and morphing options.
or Migrate ,at least partially, to Daz Studio It depends on how much you desire to have access to the latest Clothing,hair and utilities for the latest Figures
Dave-So posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 2:10 PM
good feelings..i have quite a bit invested in V4 ..I've noticed the rehash ... on all DAZ figures. I have seen mostly new releases here for G3 .... reason I was wondering. Dawn seems to be decent.
Humankind has not
woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound
together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle,
1854
Dale B posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 2:21 PM
The Hivewire figures are decent, and getting better. I still use all the figures from Posette on; mesh doesn't expire or spoil. Once I learn to rig and wieight map properly, I'll be retrofitting the older figures over time, as they are still quite useable.
quietrob posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 2:31 PM
Dave-So posted at 12:29PM Sun, 20 September 2015 - #4229642
good feelings..i have quite a bit invested in V4 ..I've noticed the rehash ... on all DAZ figures. I have seen mostly new releases here for G3 .... reason I was wondering. Dawn seems to be decent.
Why don't you take a look at Project E? I still use Aiko 3 as well.
-Timberwolf- posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 2:43 PM
[quietrob]
Why don't you take a look at Project E? I still use Aiko 3 as well.
small but important problem: not out yet
PhilC posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 4:57 PM
Or you could just go and be original and creative ;)
michelvanspeybroeck posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 5:32 PM
I use V4 but V7 is next level stuff compared to V4. As a poser user i would upgrade to a next level character if there would be one for poser and i guess i am not the only one.
V4 kept poser going but it is also the achilles heel of poser.
RorrKonn posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 7:46 PM
Genesis is made for DAZ Studio
Made for Poser
Dawn http://hivewire3d.com/dawn-special-edition.html/
Scarlet https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=109591
Michelle http://www.runtimedna.com/Michelle.html
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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MistyLaraCarrara posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 8:32 PM
hugz my V4 to my bosoms. And_ iiiiii_ will always love y_oooo_
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
MistyLaraCarrara posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 8:34 PM
RorrKonn posted at 9:33PM Sun, 20 September 2015 - #4229694
Genesis is made for DAZ Studio
Made for Poser
Dawn http://hivewire3d.com/dawn-special-edition.html/
Scarlet https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=109591
Michelle http://www.runtimedna.com/Michelle.html
and Koz and Kez.
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
MistyLaraCarrara posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 8:59 PM
next yoo be asking me to give up posette? Posie
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
rokket posted Sun, 20 September 2015 at 11:38 PM
Dale B posted at 9:35PM Sun, 20 September 2015 - #4229645
The Hivewire figures are decent, and getting better. I still use all the figures from Posette on; mesh doesn't expire or spoil. Once I learn to rig and wieight map properly, I'll be retrofitting the older figures over time, as they are still quite useable.
Someone (I can't remember who, my mind is a moldy piece of Swiss cheese) tried to weight map Sydney and found way too many issues with her mesh to make it viable. I would assume the same to be true with all the G2 (not Genesis) figures like Jessi and Olivia. Same mesh. While I still use mostly Poser natives (I tried V4 and didn't like her), I do have Dawn, Koz and Kez in my runtime, as well as Miki 4. And as was stated, if you like V4 and she is working for you, why change just for the sake of changing?
If I had a nickle for ever time a woman told me to get lost, I could buy Manhattan.
HiveWireChris posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 12:12 AM
I dip in here from time to time, especially when some one forwards me a link to check out. Don't usually post because I don't want to come off as selling my work, or drawing negative attention. However, I would like to share my point of view for the future of Poser and DS content. DAZ created and owns the DSON format. DAZ has widened the chasm that exists between them and the "mother ship". DSON is still a weak and anemic way to get DAZ content into Poser and working well. G3 is made for Studio only really. Any DAZ figure going forward will not be made for Poser period! The HiveWire figure line up that is created in house, is made natively for BOTH Poser and DS. We currently create the only "core figures" that are made for both. Our aim is to create thee content bridge to both software programs. V4 is only alive because folks here continue to create supporting content for her. Advancements for V4 from DAZ are long gone, hence G3. That is their advancement.
HiveWire continues development on Dawn, and Dusk, and our Baby Luna, and even our Horse. When a Dawn 2 is developed (which won't be for quite a while) we will make sure that existing UVs, and maps, and morphs and characters that are currently available for Dawn SE will still work for Dawn 2. Unlike others that make their supportive artist audience and customers abandon their work to support yet another new figure line up that changes quickly, making folks scramble to support the latest release figures. HiveWire is here for you for the long haul. We will continue to develop the best quality that we can, and make improvements on our figures so you can support them going forward. The kind folks here that run Rendo have asked for our latest Dawn and Dusk because more artists are supporting them and submitting content, so Rendo wanted our latest to test against. We've been more then happy to respond in the positive and provide our Dawn and Dusk for testers here.
If you want to look at the future core figure content that will continue to support Poser and Studio, look to HiveWire. Give us input for improvements that you need to see, and we'll do our best to make them so you as an artist and customer have a creative team that listens to you, and will grow with you.
Casette posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 1:04 AM
NO!!
CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
-Timberwolf- posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 2:16 AM
It looks like Erogenesis' ProjektE figure will become my one and only Poser-figure once it is released. Untill then I'll keep playing and learning with DS and their G3 Figures.
infinity10 posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 2:57 AM
Uhmmm, nah. I have too much V4 content which I have not exhausted or hasn't gone stale for me.
Eternal Hobbyist
RorrKonn posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 3:26 AM
HiveWireChris .Thanks for every thing :)
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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chaecuna posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 4:59 AM
I don't understand the scope of this thread. All the options have been extensively discussed in the last months and no new event has happened in the mean time; repeating the questions cannot lead to different answers.
The nearest in time event that might change the situation is the release of Poser which has to happen before year's end for its financial effects to take place in 2015.
About SMSI, from what I gathered in investors chats, they are is still sitting on enough cash to be beaten Cassius Clay-like for several (4+) quarters before reaching liquidity problems and SMSI top dogs haven't shown any inclination to step down/steer the firm into being bought by anybody (sarcastic comment of one of my fellow chatters: "by who?"). Personally, I think that no short term (4-5 quarters) societary changes are in order, even in the case NASDAQ delisting takes place (deadline March 8th, 2016 or, if they get a reprive, around early September 2016) or Dicker Investments closes its SMSI position.
On Daz front, they have no reason whatsoever to change their strategy; in the supremely unlikely possibility of SMSI selling their consumer products division, I feel that they might be slightly interested in Anime/Manga Studio since it would be the 2D complement to their 3D line, but definitely not in Poser (or in any other Smith Micro non-telco product/IP).
TL;DR: nothing new on the western front, so let's all enjoy the silence, broken only by crickets, that has descended on this forum.
Dale B posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 6:20 AM
rokket posted at 5:51AM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229737
Dale B posted at 9:35PM Sun, 20 September 2015 - #4229645
The Hivewire figures are decent, and getting better. I still use all the figures from Posette on; mesh doesn't expire or spoil. Once I learn to rig and wieight map properly, I'll be retrofitting the older figures over time, as they are still quite useable.
Someone (I can't remember who, my mind is a moldy piece of Swiss cheese) tried to weight map Sydney and found way too many issues with her mesh to make it viable. I would assume the same to be true with all the G2 (not Genesis) figures like Jessi and Olivia. Same mesh. While I still use mostly Poser natives (I tried V4 and didn't like her), I do have Dawn, Koz and Kez in my runtime, as well as Miki 4. And as was stated, if you like V4 and she is working for you, why change just for the sake of changing?
I'm actually thinking about things like Dan Cortopassi's works. Natalia and Natrixa are my go to figures for fantasy work (no one has come close to the mermaid tails he made years ago, for instance; none of this body stocking knee bending nonsense. They are parenting figures and you hide the lower legs. Gill exhausts, morphable tail to change the locomotion form. geometry switching, etc. With some shader work, they would be incredible). All the V's are quite usable, and since the base skeleton is effectively identical since the days of P1 right on through today, motions created in iClone can work with basically any biped Poser can use.
And in many cases, breaking psychological addiction takes a long run up. The number of individuals who have 'It must come from XXX to be any good' is still large, and the product of massive ad campaigning. Despite the fact that each and every release from XXX took a year or more to become technically functional (at least as much as possible at the time). Nerd 3D is 'one of us' of long standing, and from the list of things released so far, it seems apparent he is taking this chance to address many pet peeves in this, our tool of choice. Teyon is rumored to be working on something new without 'committe-itis' which affected the quality of the figures last go around per reports.
Do I think there is a 'Vickie Killer' in the works? No. It's just mesh. A Resource. The Poser tool still gets along with a lot of CGI style programs, and it does so by using industry standards and text files that can be edited by anyone with the time and need. But sooner or later there will be a figure that 'replaces' it . . . if due to lack of availability if nothing else..
rokket posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 6:49 AM
I have been following this argument ever since I first started with Poser 8 five years ago. I see a slight decline in the support for V4, but that doesn't mean you can't still find a few thousand slut outfits for her, dozens of temples and hundreds of swords. My whole take in it is do what makes YOU happy. I stick with the native Poser figures because of financial obligations outside of this hobby and a promise I made to my wife. I tried V4 when they gave her away at DAZ and she didn't really resonate with me like she does with so many others. So I will repeat what I said earlier: don't give her up if you still have a use for her. Don't run off and get the latest and greatest thing just because the lights are brighter and the bells and whistles are louder. New doesn't always mean better.
If I had a nickle for ever time a woman told me to get lost, I could buy Manhattan.
estherau posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 7:46 AM
I like my V4 and have started scaling her. But i have high hopes for the new poser figure. I don't use the other native SM figures much I wouldn't be surprised if I will like the newest one. Can't wait to see her. Love esther
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
WandW posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 8:13 AM
rokket posted at 9:03AM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229737
Someone (I can't remember who, my mind is a moldy piece of Swiss cheese) tried to weight map Sydney and found way too many issues with her mesh to make it viable. I would assume the same to be true with all the G2 (not Genesis) figures like Jessi and Olivia. Same mesh.
Yes, there is an extra row of polygons in the torso of the G2 (Genesis 2) female figures that breaks the symmetry. Shvrdavid discovered this when he tried to weightmap it. As a result, the weightmaps can't be mirrored, which makes rigging it extraordinarily difficult, as each side must be rigged individually.
He created a 'G3' with the symmetry issues fixed, along with facial rigging like that of the Genesis 3, but years earlier. However, fixing the symmetry of course breaks all of the body morphs, so neither have ever been released.
I do have a copy of his weightmapped G2F...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
JVRenderer posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 9:17 AM
OH NO, YOU DON'T!! I AIN'T GOING OUT WITHOUT A FIGHT!!
Software: Daz Studio 4.15, Photoshop CC, Zbrush 2022, Blender 3.3, Silo 2.3, Filter Forge 4. Marvelous Designer 7
Hardware: self built Intel Core i7 8086K, 64GB RAM, RTX 3090 .
"If you spend too much time arguing about software, you're spending too little time creating art!" ~ SomeSmartAss
"A critic is a legless man who teaches running." ~ Channing Pollock
wolf359 posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 10:08 AM
“Dawn SE will still work for Dawn 2. Unlike others that make their supportive artist audience and customers abandon their work to support yet another new figure line up that changes quickly, making folks scramble to support the latest release figures. HiveWire is here for you”
Hi, I am not sure to whom you refer in the above. But the “scramble” to Support the new figures is a natural market reaction for both venders and buyers, Do we not want people to “scramble” to support the new poser 11 figures when they arrive?
Venders are not “forced to abandon” our work When new figures are released We choose to, based on what figure platform we see in demand.
“If you want to look at the future core figure content that will continue to support Poser and Studio, look to HiveWire.”
May I impose upon you to clarify Dawns “Support” for Daz studio 4x
I only ask because of the following: When I Upgraded from DS 2.3 to DS 4.x I got the original unisex genesis 1 as well as the The Gen 2 Male and female and now the Gen3 female.
ALL of My legacy (poser6 era) V4/M4 Clothing and skin materials were supported by Gen 1& Gen 2 via Autofit and UV switching And ALL of my animated character motion files work on them as well.
Will Dawn offer me such a Painless transition?? Additionally ,as a Sci-Fi Enthusiast, I found that nearly All of the really cool creature/Alien morphs seemed to be for the Original genesis 1 figure. I was able to easily transfer them to the Gen2 Figures via a Plugin Called “GEN X” Similarly, I have been able to transfer all of my legacy V4/M4/Hiro,Aiko morphs to gen2 Via this same plugin. (not a free plugin BTW but worthwhile investment !!!)
Will Dawn offer me this support in Daz studio as well??
On the matter of the G3 Female, While a cursory read of the Daz forums would seem to indicate an effort is underway to make her compatible with previous genesis content, I frankly don’t care. This figure is a step backward as a Daz native Figure IMHO but a great advance if you plan to Develop for unity ( I have no such plans ATM)
But Does the existence of gen3 make gen2 or even gen 1 obsolete??…..nope.
ghonma posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 11:21 AM
But Does the existence of gen3 make gen2 or even gen 1 obsolete??…..nope.
Well if you're using DS then the whole thing is pretty clear cut. Use Genesis, adapt all other content to fit her, render in iRay and sleep happy.
It's when you're a Poser user or a cross app fan that things get a lot more troublesome. You can use V4 and live with the fact that almost all her content is obsolete and makes little use of current/next gen tech in DS or Poser. You can use Dawn and see her slowly fade into oblivion for lack of support and top tier content. You can use Poser natives or similar alternate figures and get even less support then Dawn. You can use DSON but get a figure that's a poor cousin of the one in DS. I suppose you could even go full 'commando mode' and start making your own sculpts or whatever but in that case you may as well move beyond Poser.
Or in short, what do you do if you want a modern, well supported figure but don't want to move to DS ?
michelvanspeybroeck posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 11:42 AM
ghonma posted at 11:42AM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229851
But Does the existence of gen3 make gen2 or even gen 1 obsolete??…..nope.
Well if you're using DS then the whole thing is pretty clear cut. Use Genesis, adapt all other content to fit her, render in iRay and sleep happy.
It's when you're a Poser user or a cross app fan that things get a lot more troublesome. You can use V4 and live with the fact that almost all her content is obsolete and makes little use of current/next gen tech in DS or Poser. You can use Dawn and see her slowly fade into oblivion for lack of support and top tier content. You can use Poser natives or similar alternate figures and get even less support then Dawn. You can use DSON but get a figure that's a poor cousin of the one in DS. I suppose you could even go full 'commando mode' and start making your own sculpts or whatever but in that case you may as well move beyond Poser.
Or in short, what do you do if you want a modern, well supported figure but don't want to move to DS ?
That is a good altough frustrating question. I am leaning to starting using DS.
I have been using poser since poser 2, if i make the switch to DS it wil not be happily. I love poser as a software but this lack of new fresh quality figures is something that i can no longer support. OK there is DAWN and other figures and i have a lot of respect for the people responsible for making these figures. But as i said V7 is next level stuff.
Since there are a lot of items on the marketplace for V7 G3 i think it is safe to say that there is a growing user base.
This is not a good thing for poser.
RorrKonn posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 11:47 AM
WandW Genesis 2 is symmetrical
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
Kazam561 posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 11:49 AM
wolf359 posted at 11:43AM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229637
Hi Before you go “all in” with the G3 Female” Be sure to check the thread in the Daz Commons titled: “ why I wont be buying anything else for the G3 Female”
As far as leaving V4.. Well.. as others have said you can Endure the vicissitudes of the various Kludges to get genesis figures into poser with any useful clothing and morphing options.
or Migrate ,at least partially, to Daz Studio It depends on how much you desire to have access to the latest Clothing,hair and utilities for the latest Figures
I want to make a joke about Kludge and coffee like bear claws and coffee... but must refrain my self.... failing so much... :)
The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.
Kazam561 posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 11:51 AM
RorrKonn posted at 11:50AM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229860
WandW Genesis 2 is symmetrical
She's referring to Smith Micro's G2s. The shortened term G2 is also used for Genesis 2 even though they are different figures. And also a movie with John Saxon. I have to go eat something, otherwise I'll keep going off on wild tangents.... :)
The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.
WandW posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 12:35 PM
Kazam561 posted at 1:34PM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229863
RorrKonn posted at 11:50AM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229860
WandW Genesis 2 is symmetrical
She's referring to Smith Micro's G2s. The shortened term G2 is also used for Genesis 2 even though they are different figures. And also a movie with John Saxon. I have to go eat something, otherwise I'll keep going off on wild tangents.... :)
Yes; I was thinking "Not Genesis 2" and left out the 'Not'..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
Kazam561 posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 1:06 PM
WandW posted at 1:04PM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229879
Kazam561 posted at 1:34PM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229863
RorrKonn posted at 11:50AM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229860
WandW Genesis 2 is symmetrical
She's referring to Smith Micro's G2s. The shortened term G2 is also used for Genesis 2 even though they are different figures. And also a movie with John Saxon. I have to go eat something, otherwise I'll keep going off on wild tangents.... :)
Yes; I was thinking "Not Genesis 2" and left out the 'Not'..
I'm also wrong about Genesis 2 the movie with John Saxon. It's Alex Cord.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064366/?ref_=tt_rec_tt
Saxon's in Planet Earth which used many of the same scenes and props. I still haven't eaten breakfast and it's already lunch time :(
The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.
Alisa posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 2:23 PM
wolf359 posted at 2:16PM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229824
May I impose upon you to clarify Dawns “Support” for Daz studio 4x
Not quite sure if this is what you're asking, but when you buy Dawn SE, you get both a Native Poser version (requires Poser 9+) and a Native DAZ Studio version (requires DAZ Studio 4.6) which has both 3Delight and Iray material presets. Clothing from other figures can be converted by creating a clone (there's a thread with instructions on doing this at HiveWire) or by using something like the Standalone version of PhilC's Wardrobe Wizard. Does that help?
Cheers,
Alisa
RETIRED HiveWire 3D QAV Director
RorrKonn posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 5:49 PM
WandW posted at 6:46PM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229879
Kazam561 posted at 1:34PM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229863
RorrKonn posted at 11:50AM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229860
WandW Genesis 2 is symmetrical
She's referring to Smith Micro's G2s. The shortened term G2 is also used for Genesis 2 even though they are different figures. And also a movie with John Saxon. I have to go eat something, otherwise I'll keep going off on wild tangents.... :)
Yes; I was thinking "Not Genesis 2" and left out the 'Not'..
No harm ,no foul ,not like my grammar would impress a English teacher. ;)
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
RorrKonn posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 6:01 PM
I've looked at all the Character meshes in Pro 14.& I've looked at DAZ Characters.
I really think we have more then enough character meshes to last us as long as there's a DAZ Poser.
but we keep reinventing the wheel and making more n more new characters from scratch.
DAZ's V5 is the last mesh they would have ever needed.maybe change the rigging with new tech or for different app's.but the mesh is fine.
Roxie is a fine mesh and Poser would never need another mesh. but Poser has always released a new mesh with the net version.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
shvrdavid posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 10:29 PM
WandW posted at 10:26PM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229789
rokket posted at 9:03AM Mon, 21 September 2015 - #4229737
Someone (I can't remember who, my mind is a moldy piece of Swiss cheese) tried to weight map Sydney and found way too many issues with her mesh to make it viable. I would assume the same to be true with all the G2 (not Genesis) figures like Jessi and Olivia. Same mesh.
Yes, there is an extra row of polygons in the torso of the G2 (Genesis 2) female figures that breaks the symmetry. Shvrdavid discovered this when he tried to weightmap it. As a result, the weightmaps can't be mirrored, which makes rigging it extraordinarily difficult, as each side must be rigged individually.
He created a 'G3' with the symmetry issues fixed, along with facial rigging like that of the Genesis 3, but years earlier. However, fixing the symmetry of course breaks all of the body morphs, so neither have ever been released.
I do have a copy of his weightmapped G2F...
It is good to see that someone still uses her, lol.. It is ironic thou. Lots of people told me years ago that characters with lots of bones would never fly... I have been rigging them that way for years, and heard that from more people than I can remember. Now people embrace characters with lots of bones, and it is nothing new by any means.
There is a way to mirror the mapping when rigging non symmetrical wire frames using scripts, but it breaks far to easily. Accidentally mirror the rigging with Posers built in commands and it is all over....
Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->
fiziwig2 posted Mon, 21 September 2015 at 10:39 PM
I last used Poser in 2002. Just last week I installed Poser Pro 2014 and started playing around with it again. Then I found an old hard drive in a box in the back of the closet from the computer I had back then. On that hard drive I found the install files for Victoria 2 (and essentials) and Michael 2 (and essentials). So I installed them, and guess what? They work fine in Poser Pro 2014. So for me, V4 would be an upgrade. But since I'm mostly interested in toon rendering (graphic novel style) V2 is just as good as V4 for my purposes, and probably as good as anything newer.
So I guess it really depends on what your artistic goals are.
false1 posted Tue, 22 September 2015 at 10:00 AM
HiveWireChris posted at 10:50AM Tue, 22 September 2015 - #4229741
HiveWire continues development on Dawn, and Dusk, and our Baby Luna, and even our Horse. When a Dawn 2 is developed (which won't be for quite a while) we will make sure that existing UVs, and maps, and morphs and characters that are currently available for Dawn SE will still work for Dawn 2. Unlike others that make their supportive artist audience and customers abandon their work to support yet another new figure line up that changes quickly, making folks scramble to support the latest release figures. HiveWire is here for you for the long haul. We will continue to develop the best quality that we can, and make improvements on our figures so you can support them going forward. The kind folks here that run Rendo have asked for our latest Dawn and Dusk because more artists are supporting them and submitting content, so Rendo wanted our latest to test against. We've been more then happy to respond in the positive and provide our Dawn and Dusk for testers here.
Hi Chris, surprised to see this info here rather than at HW3D but maybe I missed it. I've been curious about your plans going forward. Glad to hear that the next version of your figures will support current content. Using the same UVs and mesh for all your current human figures has been beneficial to me as a user, both financially and as far as workflow. Knowing I can essentially update to the new figures when they arrive, repurposing my content, without jumping through hoops gives me more confidence in investing time and money in Dawn, Dusk, and Luna.
________________________________
pikesPit posted Tue, 22 September 2015 at 1:12 PM
shvrdavid posted at 7:38PM Tue, 22 September 2015 - #4230000
[...] There is a way to mirror the mapping when rigging non symmetrical wire frames using scripts, but it breaks far to easily. Accidentally mirror the rigging with Posers built in commands and it is all over....
I've always wondered why the "mirror" function in the POSE room comprises the unnecessary, "danger-of-clicking-the-wrong-button", and annoying request to mirror the joint setup as well.
So please SKIP this nag box unless I'm in the Setup Room, or have the Joint Editor Window open. In it's current state it's just a nuisance, and has a large potential of inadvertently destroying a figure's setup / rig.
Thank you
-Peter-
P.S.: I've reposted this message in the "PP2016 wishlist" thread at the other "R..." forum - Maybe it catches the attention of someone in charge... -P-
ssgbryan posted Tue, 22 September 2015 at 2:53 PM
shvrdavid posted at 1:43PM Tue, 22 September 2015 - #4230000
It is good to see that someone still uses her, lol.. It is ironic thou. Lots of people told me years ago that characters with lots of bones would never fly... I have been rigging them that way for years, and heard that from more people than I can remember. Now people embrace characters with lots of bones, and it is nothing new by any means.
There is a way to mirror the mapping when rigging non symmetrical wire frames using scripts, but it breaks far to easily. Accidentally mirror the rigging with Posers built in commands and it is all over....
Look at the change in horsepower. When Poser 7 was released, I was running a PowerMac running at 773Mhz with 1.5Gb of memory. Now I have a 6 year old computer (Mac Pro flashed 5,1) with 8 cores running at 2.26Ghz & 32Gb of ram. Makes a difference in what one can do.
The SM G2 figures are my goto figures. (I luv Jessi, Miki 2, Olivia, & Sydney) In my stories, about 70% of the main characters are SM figures. - They are realistically sized & proportioned figures that don't look anything like V4. The fact that I have more figures for Sydney & company than were ever released for genesis 2 series over at DAZ amuses me to no end.
What would I need to do to get a copy of that weight mapped Sydney?
trepleen posted Sat, 03 October 2015 at 1:00 AM
I'd like to use V7 and V7 content without the need for DSON.
RorrKonn posted Sat, 03 October 2015 at 1:45 AM
trepleen posted at 2:43AM Sat, 03 October 2015 - #4232066
I'd like to use V7 and V7 content without the need for DSON.
there is no V7 DSON .V7 does not work in Poser. The days of DAZ being a Poser vender is coming to a end.
============================================================
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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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kobaltkween posted Sat, 03 October 2015 at 4:33 AM
Um, just to say, the reason to look beyond V4 is liking to buy content at all. DAZ doesn't want to support Poser. Rendo has much less than 1/2 the inventory DAZ does because of their clearance policy, so older products are disappearing. Rendo PTB are pushing DS and G3 support. At some point they're probably going to stop accepting V4 content. Even if most of the Poser community stays on V4, there just won't be enough people buying the same V4 content for V4 products to sell but so well. HiveWire and RDNA are the only brokerages currently making an effort to support Poser, and even RDNA is promoting G3 products pretty damn hard.
Maybe I'm misreading things, but most posts seem to view supporting a non-DAZ figure as some sort of kindness or charity to the figure creator. Thing is, we invested millions in the Vicky line to make it what it is today. We did that just to get V4 to what she is almost a full decade after her release. No single creator is going to be able to match all that money and all that community support before anyone else buys in.
V1 was lower quality than anything I've seen in a long time, and it's not as if that was only due to technological limitations. It wasn't her resolution, it was her shape. Computers had no problem handling all the morphs that V2 added. Her mapping could actually have been more efficient, and certainly could have had less stretching. And both she and V2 were very expensive. But instead of focusing on her weaknesses, the community focused on her possibilities. And on that community support, DAZ built a very lucrative figure-based content monopoly.
Now they're leaving the Poser community behind, which was predictable from the moment they made DS. There's perfectly good figures to start supporting right now, like Dawn and Dusk. But people keep saying they're going to wait until they have the kind of support the fourth version of a figure got in their 10th year. Thing is, no figure will have that level of support without at least half as much community investment to get it there.
Brokerages and vendors can survive just selling DS content, or other kinds of 3D content altogether. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Poser can survive selling outside the content community. I certainly saw more people using Poser outside of these forums and galleries than inside, and that was only watching one class in one department at one university. They certainly have options to grow outside of this content community, and I'm very sure it would be possible, if difficult, to do.
The only people I see without many choices if the community doesn't support a non-DAZ figure are Poser customers who want new content. Vendors can't support V4 indefinitely, even if they want to, because brokerages can't. There's just not enough money in making a few more things for a figure that's got a ton of content and just as many limitations. Even freebies will be hit hard if all the vendors switch to DS, because a whole lot of the freebies are made by vendors. So unless you do want to make all your own content (a perfectly viable, but usually rare, option) or switch to DS (which I'd expect anyone willing to have done already), you need a non-DAZ figure to get community and brokerage support.
Which isn't going to happen if we sit back and wait for someone (or even a whole company of someones) to achieve the same thing that took the whole community years of work, millions of dollars, and several revisions to achieve. We're at what I call a Tetris point. Not making a decision is making a decision.
Wolf359, why do you still post here? For years now, all you've said in each post, over and over, is how terrible Poser and its figures are, and how you don't use it any more. I'm very sure I first saw you say this years ago now. By your own account you don't use Poser, and your posts never involve any solutions beyond not using Poser any more. You've voiced your opinion about Poser at least hundreds of times now. We all know it. You've gotten it across. And it's cool that you don't like Poser, and have found tools that suit you and your needs. But this is a Poser forum, not a DS forum or a C4D forum. This forum is for Poser users who want to help other Poser users. What are you trying to achieve? I genuinely don't understand what you want, and why you keep posting the same negative message all over the Poser forums. Wouldn't you rather go to the forums for the software you do use and post how great it is? Why do keep telling us why you hate the software we use?
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 03 October 2015 at 9:04 AM
kobaltkween posted at 12:03AM Sun, 04 October 2015 - #4232078
...
Wolf359, why do you still post here? For years now, all you've said in each post, over and over, is how terrible Poser and its figures are, and how you don't use it any more. I'm very sure I first saw you say this years ago now. By your own account you don't use Poser, and your posts never involve any solutions beyond not using Poser any more. You've voiced your opinion about Poser at least hundreds of times now. We all know it. You've gotten it across. And it's cool that you don't like Poser, and have found tools that suit you and your needs. But this is a Poser forum, not a DS forum or a C4D forum. This forum is for Poser users who want to help other Poser users. What are you trying to achieve? I genuinely don't understand what you want, and why you keep posting the same negative message all over the Poser forums. Wouldn't you rather go to the forums for the software you do use and post how great it is? Why do keep telling us why you hate the software we use?
Fair question.
Wolf?
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Lyne posted Sat, 03 October 2015 at 12:12 PM
I had used V4 since she came out, buying ALL the updating Pretty V4 morph/fix add ons to make her posed body work/bend "right" .... and then I tried out Dawn (the first one) and I was SOLD... and now especially with Dawn SE, I just can't go back to my beloved V4.... I did bring V4 into my scene one day...and tried again to pose her (my fully loaded V4)...and well... I just "can't go back"... so yes, I've let her go after using Dawn for about a year.... I do buy V4 maps BECAUSE I CAN TRANSFORM THEM TO DAWN.... but meanwhile I just looked at my Dawn Runtime (aka Hivewire runtime) and it's already up to a respectable 21 GIGS! and I've got cross dresser to help me get my lovely V4 closet over to Dawn....
The thing is Dawn BENDS SOOOO WELL WITHOUT DISTORTION!!! and now Dusk has already far outshined M4 in the bending/posing department... but that's probably another thread...
I've been a dedicated V4 only user for soooo long, and actually was leery of Dawn...but she sold herself to me (oh that sounds funny! LOL!) I should say PROVED herself....
Now if Rendo merchants would only stop pushing Genesis products in my face, I might shop her more (already bought all the Dawn stuff sold her that I could get my hands on!!) So I check in here every few days, and then go away empty handed most of the time...
Life Requires Assembly and we all know how THAT goes!
ssgbryan posted Sat, 03 October 2015 at 8:16 PM
'Rosity depends on the 'Rosity marketplace, not Poser, Kobaltkween. ‘Rosity hasn’t gone over 3,000 users since the site redesign, down about 50% – make of it what you will.
DS is designed to maximize vendor income, not to preserve customer investment. That is why storefronts and vendors are pushing g3. Pay more; get less (from the customer's perspective). Long term, it will be interesting to see if more than 1 storefront can live off the DS user base. Any of you realize just how few people sell over at DAZ on a regular basis? Not as many as you might think.
kobaltkween posted at 1:06PM Sat, 03 October 2015 - #4232078
Um, just to say, the reason to look beyond V4 is liking to buy content at all.
Clothing has been decoupled from figures for about a decade now (1st with Wardrobe Wizard, then Xdresser, now the Fitting Room). It used to require an intermediate knowledge of Poser, but now, a rank beginner can do it. This means the customer doesn't actually have to care about who the product was made for originally. (Yes, I know - no one has ever bought any copy of Poser 5 or later.)
Those that have left Poser 4 conventions behind have more choices than vendors like. V4 is going to get vaulted soon – DAZ Soon - note that nothing at DAZ comes with Poser Companion Files anymore - Not even content built for g2 (which Poser can use).
Maybe I'm misreading things, but most posts seem to view supporting a non-DAZ figure as some sort of kindness or charity to the figure creator.
You are. Many vendors were adamant that they would not build for non-V4 figures and customers got the message loud and clear. Why should they invest in a figure that the vendors are hell bent on not supporting? This attitude is the stated reason as to why SM added the fitting room. Yet another missed opportunity for vendors to prepare for A.V4. (After Vicky 4). Then there were the DAZ vendors that the moderators here allowed to run wild in the Poser forums.
The only people I see without many choices if the community doesn't support a non-DAZ figure are Poser customers who want new content.
Look closer. The people that are losing choices are vendors/customers that won't let go of a Poser 4 workflow. Those of us who have done so have choices.
I am the very model of the modern Poser Pro 2014 user. I share clothing, hair & skin textures between all of my characters, depending on my needs, not the whim of a vendor. I really don't think you guys realize how much later versions of Poser change how we use Poser. I never have to worry about getting clothing on ANY figure due to the fitting room, and the commands of Morphs to Single Dial & Copy Morphs From command. (Yes, I know SM has never sold a single copy of Poser Pro.)
Here is an associated question - if a customer is too cheap to spend money for a copy of Poser 9 or later, just how much do you think they are paying for any of your products?
Which isn't going to happen if we sit back and wait for someone (or even a whole company of someones) to achieve the same thing that took the whole community years of work, millions of dollars, and several revisions to achieve.
What is this "We" stuff? We have chosen - the problem is that Poser users have more than 1 choice of figures - You seem to be expecting us to conform what makes things easiest for you. (That may not be what you meant, but that is how it is coming across.) Those days are gone, and they aren't coming back.
Let me give you an example. There is a new male figure over at RDNA (EF-Steve). If vendors supports him, great. if not, by the end of the month, he will have access to all of my male clothing (20Gb+).
Wolf359, why do you still post here?
Wolf359 posts here for the same reason DAZ vendors like Zev0 & Terrance (aka Male3dia) post here. If they were confident in their choices, they would be in the Cinema3d and DS forums, respectively.
Male_M3dia posted Sat, 03 October 2015 at 8:38 PM
ssgbryan posted at 9:34PM Sat, 03 October 2015 - #4232181
'Rosity depends on the 'Rosity marketplace, not Poser, Kobaltkween. ‘Rosity hasn’t gone over 3,000 users since the site redesign, down about 50% – make of it what you will.
DS is designed to maximize vendor income, not to preserve customer investment. That is why storefronts and vendors are pushing g3. Pay more; get less (from the customer's perspective). Long term, it will be interesting to see if more than 1 storefront can live off the DS user base. Any of you realize just how few people sell over at DAZ on a regular basis? Not as many as you might think.
kobaltkween posted at 1:06PM Sat, 03 October 2015 - #4232078
Um, just to say, the reason to look beyond V4 is liking to buy content at all.
Clothing has been decoupled from figures for about a decade now (1st with Wardrobe Wizard, then Xdresser, now the Fitting Room). It used to require an intermediate knowledge of Poser, but now, a rank beginner can do it. This means the customer doesn't actually have to care about who the product was made for originally. (Yes, I know - no one has ever bought any copy of Poser 5 or later.)
Those that have left Poser 4 conventions behind have more choices than vendors like. V4 is going to get vaulted soon – DAZ Soon - note that nothing at DAZ comes with Poser Companion Files anymore - Not even content built for g2 (which Poser can use).
Maybe I'm misreading things, but most posts seem to view supporting a non-DAZ figure as some sort of kindness or charity to the figure creator.
You are. Many vendors were adamant that they would not build for non-V4 figures and customers got the message loud and clear. Why should they invest in a figure that the vendors are hell bent on not supporting? This attitude is the stated reason as to why SM added the fitting room. Yet another missed opportunity for vendors to prepare for A.V4. (After Vicky 4). Then there were the DAZ vendors that the moderators here allowed to run wild in the Poser forums.
The only people I see without many choices if the community doesn't support a non-DAZ figure are Poser customers who want new content.
Look closer. The people that are losing choices are vendors/customers that won't let go of a Poser 4 workflow. Those of us who have done so have choices.
I am the very model of the modern Poser Pro 2014 user. I share clothing, hair & skin textures between all of my characters, depending on my needs, not the whim of a vendor. I really don't think you guys realize how much later versions of Poser change how we use Poser. I never have to worry about getting clothing on ANY figure due to the fitting room, and the commands of Morphs to Single Dial & Copy Morphs From command. (Yes, I know SM has never sold a single copy of Poser Pro.)
Here is an associated question - if a customer is too cheap to spend money for a copy of Poser 9 or later, just how much do you think they are paying for any of your products?
Which isn't going to happen if we sit back and wait for someone (or even a whole company of someones) to achieve the same thing that took the whole community years of work, millions of dollars, and several revisions to achieve.
What is this "We" stuff? We have chosen - the problem is that Poser users have more than 1 choice of figures - You seem to be expecting us to conform what makes things easiest for you. (That may not be what you meant, but that is how it is coming across.) Those days are gone, and they aren't coming back.
Let me give you an example. There is a new male figure over at RDNA (EF-Steve). If vendors supports him, great. if not, by the end of the month, he will have access to all of my male clothing (20Gb+).
Wolf359, why do you still post here?
Wolf359 posts here for the same reason DAZ vendors like Zev0 & Terrance (aka Male3dia) post here. If they were confident in their choices, they would be in the Cinema3d and DS forums, respectively.
And if you were actually confident in the far fetched speculation posts, you wouldn't have to bring my name into this convo now would you?
What does calling people out do with the topic anyway?
Please keep the topic to V4, and not the personal attacks. Thank you.
Note: Mods, I would click report button, but I see ya'll ain't been your job from the other times I've clicked it. Please steer the convo back please.
Also since you got me to post, for those complaining about the amount of DS items coming out. It's very simple: Supply and demand. You want more items, you really need to start buying Poser stuff. And that means supporting another figure with your funds and giving up your vast V4 libraries because companies make no money from you reusing items with conversion tools and utilities. Storefronts have to keep their lights on and webspace so you can post in their forums, and it looks like the DS users are willing to pay. You want to turn the tide, support the newer figures.
RorrKonn posted Sun, 04 October 2015 at 2:09 AM
DAZ was in the right place at the right time. killer timing.
And they where willing to make 60,000 polycount characters for Poser 4.I swear ,60,000 polycount characters for Poser 4 ,that's the definition of insane.
Things change .Poser 4 DAZ was not the same 2015 DAZ.DAZ has changed a lot.so the DAZ that made V4 no longer exist.
V4 could not reign for ever.
There are no kingdoms with out a Queen. So either Poser gets a new Queen or falls.
Softimage was the King of CGI App's .Softimage has fallen. R.I.P.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
Zev0 posted Sun, 04 October 2015 at 6:10 AM
@ SSbryan - Doesn't matter what gets said, doesn't matter who is singled out, doesn't matter who hates what, all that matters is what is happening. Store trends don't lie. Majority of vendors support where the money is at. Hate Genesis all you want, slam Daz, hell call them names if it makes you sleep at night. Bottom line, it ain't going to change the fact that it is the money maker. And frankly, as content developers, that is the no.1 attraction. Sure there are those who do this for the love where money doesn't really matter, but to most of us this is our jobs. "Oh please support Dawn, she is lovely." How about Dawn supports us with high enough sales?
There is a reason most vendors have moved on, or don't bother with certain figures. But is this content developers fault? Not really. In fact it comes down to user interest. If nobody cares about a figure anymore, there is nothing you can do to change peoples minds or force them to use it. Supply and demand. That is what it's all about, and that is what we cater for. If there is no real demand for a figure, we are not going to supply for it. And we cannot afford to go on demands of a few vocal individuals, we follow sales numbers. Same can be said with software support. If sales for one doesn't warranty support anymore, it will be dropped.
Oh one more thing, what is this whole confidence with our choice nonsense? Of course I am confidence with my choice lol. Me commenting in these threads have nothing to do with that. I used to comment here long time before I was a vendor. And FYI, if I choose to reply to a Daz forum I'll do so on Daz's site, not some empty alternative space here or on any other site. This is like saying why don't more Poser users comment in the Poser section at Daz:)
In closing, remember, content sales determines demand, not the fitting room or conversion software. People want results, and most don't want to tinker and create things themselves. Most do not have the time. Hell I am the same. Instead of just posing a figure, I'll go get a pose set that does what I want and saves me time. My end goal is to render, not spend hours converting things. This is a store, people come here to buy lol. People will pay for the service and convenience of quality content. What you're saying is everybody should walk rather than pay for a bus drive into town. Now, I am going to make my coffee, and continue to supply the demand. LaterZ. Enjoy your walk. And put on a jacket, it's quite chilli outside.
Zev0 posted Sun, 04 October 2015 at 6:30 AM
Oh one more thing, remember, the new user coming into this market do not have years of content where they can go on a fitting room spree (if they will even do that). They will buy what is new and currently available that works for the intended figure, just like you did when your old content was new. What you're saying is vendors must not release anything new because everybody can buy or use 7 year+ old content and people can just convert those. Yes, that sounds like a plan that's a viable business:). People want new and shiny, who are we to deny them that?
Zev0 posted Sun, 04 October 2015 at 7:10 AM
"DS is designed to maximize vendor income, not to preserve customer investment."
Lol this is why vendors support Daz. So now whenever people wonder why other figures get no support, please tell them that exact line. And FYI, by buying more content you are increasing your investment. Guess what. I can use my G1 content on G3, I can use my G2 content on G3. Ha, I can use my G3 content on G1 and G2. I can add V4 into the mix as well if I want. That's the power of clones. At Hivewire you see the same thing happening of how users are fitting older content for DS Dawn via clones. How is that not preserving customers investments? Honestly, I don't even know why I bother to respond sometimes when half the stuff you say is a simple hate speech with no backing whatsoever to your claims. Frankly, I am disturbed at your rage against Vendors. Seems you only like them when they supply content for the figures you use, or if they provide content that have no relation to Daz in anyway.
Nagra_00_ posted Sun, 04 October 2015 at 1:32 PM
Hmm, as long as our computers are based on technology first described by Julius Edgar Lilienfeld in 1926 I don't see a reason why i shouldn't use V4 anymore :)
Dale B posted Sun, 04 October 2015 at 2:23 PM
Hmm...
I think Wolf still posts here because there are still animators, and people who use a genuine multi program pipeline for their work around here, and he can speak to the realities for those people.
As for mesh.... Well since it doesn't expire, it's still viable. Personally, I wish DAZ would just create a new g-thing and rig it so it doesn't work in Poser and be done with it. It's been years since they got a penny of my money (along with a lot of other former serious customers), and cutting the umbilical once and for all would be a godsend. If they want to keep the 4th gen figures available, cool. If not, cool. If someone figured out how to make the new non compatible figure somehow partially compatible through a dozen python scripts, cool. Hivewire is trying to become the goto for Poser figures, which is also cool.
Zev0 posted Sun, 04 October 2015 at 2:42 PM
Personally, I wish DAZ would just create a new g-thing and rig it so it doesn't work in Poser and be done with it.
They have with Genesis3.
Zev0 posted Sun, 04 October 2015 at 3:06 PM
SIgh this damn time limit on editing!!! Wanted to add the reason G3 was made the way it is, was not with killing Poser support in mind, but making it industry standard so it works with apps such as Max and Maya. Poser is more than welcome to implement the requirements to get it to work, but that is up to them if they want to.
EldritchCellar posted Sun, 04 October 2015 at 6:03 PM
Betcha Dinoraul makes pretty decent coin with his Poser figures, fitting room not required, dson not required. Hell they even work in star trek renders with Poser 4 workflow. Lol. Artists like him probably sit back and laugh at the commentary of these ping pong matches. Strictly inna box, for all concerned players. Like horses chasing a carrot on a stick.
W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD
Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5
My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG
JVRenderer posted Mon, 05 October 2015 at 2:29 AM
To answer the OP question: Why do you need to leave V4. She's not going anywhere. You have her in your runtime(S). I bet you, just like me, have so much V4 content that if you create one render per day, It'll take you a few years to use up all her content.
If you want to explore other figures, whether Genesis or Dawn, just add them to your arsenal. You don't need to abandon V4.2 Don't let others (you know who you are) persuade you into buying stuff you don't want. You don't owe them anything. It is your choice and your money. You have full control of it. Dawn, G1, G2, G3 will not make your art better. You, as an artist makes those figures look good. And don't think of buying new content as an investment. You expect a return from an investment. None of those 'investments' those vendors mentioned will guarantee or even give you a return. None of the statistics matters. It is a freaking hobby. We didn't invest in the 3d content. We willingly pay for it, and we intend to use it. Perhaps if enough vendors abandon support for V4, there maybe an opportunity for a small niche market for V4.
I use V4, Dawn, G2F in poser, G3F in DS4.8 Render on. JV
Software: Daz Studio 4.15, Photoshop CC, Zbrush 2022, Blender 3.3, Silo 2.3, Filter Forge 4. Marvelous Designer 7
Hardware: self built Intel Core i7 8086K, 64GB RAM, RTX 3090 .
"If you spend too much time arguing about software, you're spending too little time creating art!" ~ SomeSmartAss
"A critic is a legless man who teaches running." ~ Channing Pollock
michelvanspeybroeck posted Mon, 05 October 2015 at 10:35 AM
I have been using poser since poser 2. I am using poser pro 2014 and DAZ studio. I like both. I have a lot of content for V4 but i am not buying stuf for V4 anymore, i do purchase stuff for G3F. I hope that there will be a V4 replacement i am not planning on using V4 forever. Project E looks promising. I am afraid that POSER will suffer from this lack of new blood, i guess that starters will favor DS over POSER. DS being free and the base content also,.....i know it is expensive when one becomes a serious user.
I also guess that a lot of people switched from poser to DS. As other people posted V4 is such a huge success and has so much content, that other figures will always be less supported.
I hope people like erogenesis and the people at hivewire will get all the support they need from our community.
pikesPit posted Mon, 05 October 2015 at 3:13 PM
JVRenderer posted at 10:08PM Mon, 05 October 2015 - #4232306
To answer the OP question: Why do you need to leave V4. She's not going anywhere. You have her in your runtime(S). I bet you, just like me, have so much V4 content that if you create one render per day, It'll take you a few years to use up all her content.
If you want to explore other figures, whether Genesis or Dawn, just add them to your arsenal. You don't need to abandon V4.2 Don't let others (you know who you are) persuade you into buying stuff you don't want. You don't owe them anything. It is your choice and your money. You have full control of it. Dawn, G1, G2, G3 will not make your art better. You, as an artist makes those figures look good.
[...]
I use V4, Dawn, G2F in poser, G3F in DS4.8 Render on. JV
We definitely need some kind of "like" button here... Thanks JVRenderer, that was very well said!
EldritchCellar posted Mon, 05 October 2015 at 3:43 PM
Poser works fine without using any of the figures mentioned. Depends on what you're using it for and how so in relation to other software... Also, I agree with pikesPit. Good summation JV.
W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD
Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5
My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG
meatSim posted Mon, 05 October 2015 at 7:19 PM
the one thing with 'Leaving V4' is.. well what are you getting out of it, and what is it costing you. Is there really that much content being cranked out for other figures that is -that- much different than whats available for v4? Of course the newer figures themselves have lots of advantages over v4 BUT.. I find a lot of those advantages are kind of hidden once you make use of all your content (Ie.. clothe the poor girl!) Usually for me, the point comes to start using a new figure when there is a piece of content that I MUST have and its not available for a figure that i do already have.
Cimarron posted Mon, 05 October 2015 at 10:21 PM
No....I'll still continue to use V4, she has so many faces, the only reason I've V6 and 7 is because certain props and clothing weren't available for V4. If Vendors made more clothing in fantasy styles like the Sinful Witch and Dark Princess and not just bikini and lingerie styles I wouldn't have gone for V6 or 7....it was either buy them or learn to make my own and that's another learning curve I'm not ready to take any time soon.
moriador posted Tue, 06 October 2015 at 3:51 AM
I see no reason not to use any figure available, from Poser 2 on up. I'm like Cimarron or meatSim; rather than convert conforming content, I just use the figure it was made for. If there's a specific type of face or body I want to use, I'll pick whatever works best, whether that be Dawn, Sydney, V4, V5, V6, MyMichelle, Angela, etc, etc. These days, expressions have become the most important aspect of a figure for me, so once I've decided the expression I want, I'll test various figures to see which gives me the closest approximation to what's in my mind. Frequently, that means niche and rarely used figures will be the best for a particular use! But when it comes to content, among them all -- and the males, as well -- I have so much content now that I won't live long enough to use it all.
If the question here is whether -- as a vendor -- you should "leave V4" -- that's entirely up to each individual. Lots already have, from the looks of it.
It would be a shame, though, if a lot of V4 content disappeared from the market altogether, since some of it is truly, truly top notch, even stuff that was made a decade ago. Smith Micro might do well to consider offering really good terms at Content Paradise for vendors whose generation 3 and 4 Daz items aren't selling (or even being accepted) at other venues -- if for no other reason than to keep it available. A lot of very hard work went into all this content, and as long as you can still load a figure with traditional rigging into some kind of software to render it, it is perfectly usable.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
vampchild posted Tue, 06 October 2015 at 5:38 AM
Just my two cents. I've tried using Genesis and have never got it to work yet. The characters look nice but no better than V4 to me. I don't like no program that you can not load and use without having to load more addons to make it work. Daz should have sold Studio 4 full loaded just as Poser where one click and there she is. This DSON thing just ain't worth fooling with to me. Never got it to work anyway. V4-V3 will always be the Best to me. Super thanks to those still making characters and stuff for V4.
Beware-The Smoking Man Still Lives!
kobaltkween posted Mon, 12 October 2015 at 9:32 PM
For me, "Why leave V4?" isn't quite the right question. For me, it's at least three different questions.
Why support a new figure? Because vendors won't keep making things for V4 (or M4). If you like buying new stuff, and you want that new stuff to work in Poser, you should support a modern Poser figure. Otherwise, vendors will eventually stop supporting Poser altogether. It's about time to you know what or get off the pot. We all, including Poser's creators, have lots of choices. I've seen Poser used at the university I used to work at, in all kinds of works randomly online, in the oddly popular anime RWBY (and then talked about by its fans like it's high tech), and even once in a hospital. In every single one of the cases I've seen outside of this community, it was used for creating content, with only the default content used. In none of those cases did its users buy content.
If the Poser content community supports a new figure, just as we did with the highly expensive, poorly UV mapped, limited morphing V1, it will benefit the Poser content community at least as much as it does the creator, if not more. V4 is what she is today because she got years of community support. In the form of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours. As someone who felt she was different but not better than V3, and said so when she came out, I'd say she got that support from the beginning. I remember how many vehemently told me the community would fix all the problems I listed immediately (we only fixed her shoulders, and that took years), and how very few had similar criticism. Trust me, you remember when you get dogpiled. V4 got widespread brokerage support immediately, with only a very few vendors supporting older female figures in releases after hers.
No single group, let alone a single person, is going to be able to do the same, no matter how much time they have. If we wait for that to happen, those groups will have to move on from the Poser market long before they're able to duplicate all that work.
If we want future Poser content, we have to support a modern Poser figure. DAZ won't do squat for Poser users anymore. That ship sailed when they made DS, and some people are just now noticing it pulling out of the harbor. It's past time to move on.
Oh, and I also just really like some of the more recent advances, like topological improvements and weight mapping.
Why keep using Poser? In my own opinion, because DS is annoyingly limited, very closed, and poorly documented. Can you sculpt in it like in Poser? No. Sure it's got GoZ, but so does Poser. That's like saying Poser has AutoFit because it has GoZ (instead of more accurately saying it has it because it has the Fitting Room). I could fix the mesh problems I had with V6 in DS in seconds in Poser. I find it hugely frustrating to work without a sculpting tool in my posing software. Can you make your own dynamic clothes, or convert other people's clothes? No. DS users have to use an arcane process just to use MD clothes there, and from how it's been described to me, it's got some significant flaws. You have to treat poses as morphs, which (from what I've been told) has the same problem using morphs instead of rigging does. I can use MD clothes in Poser, and even convert some conformers. And I can do what I do most- make my own clothes in Blender and use them in Poser. For me, that's a whole lot I can't do in DS. Can I make add softbody or cloth dynamics to mesh hair? No. You look at, for instance ken1171, who uses soft body physics on his figures and hair all the time. If wolf359's work is the standard for professional, his animation is more than adequate for professionals. My aspirations aren't so high in that area. I hope to use soft body physics on hair in the future, and if I can get it to work half as well, I'll be ecstatic. Can you build your own materials, like you can in Poser? Well, technically yes, but there's no documentation about any of the nodes (or "bricks"). I mean zero. Can you just load DS source meshes into other programs the way you can in Poser? No, because DS uses a custom, proprietary format for its source meshes. As far as I can tell, they're no more efficient than .obz files, but a whole lot less easy to mess with. Which means it's harder for me to make morphs that work properly in DS. In Poser, it's been dead easy- load mesh from Runtime (maybe after unzipping) and sculpt. In DS, I have to use an exporter, which adds a layer of error to work with. Can you edit DS files in an editor? Only if you mean a text editor. There's no equivalent to the free or commercial apps out there to edit Poser files. And DS files are full of extraneous information that clutters the file. Information you might not want in files you publish. But the community seems to poo-poo the idea of an editor, so I don't see it happening any time soon.
Which is just one of many examples where people flame and rant about an issue in Poser, yet make light of it in DS.
Sure, I'd love for Poser to be even better than it is. But as a content creator, even if I stopped selling Poser content (which I could see happening- brokerages aren't going to accept V4 content forever, and they're already pushing G3 support hard), I wouldn't stop using Poser and use DS instead. I like being able to make what I need and hack what I have. And not only is that sometimes impossible in DS, so far as I've tried and witnessed, it's always crazy difficult. From my perspective, DS is easier when you don't mind the work it forces you to do and/or don't mind working inside of very particular boundaries. DS is the only app I have ever used with gaping holes in its documentation, where even its experts don't know how things actually work. Which frankly, makes sense. DS is a loss leader meant to sell content. Poser is a posing tool for content creators that includes content as a loss leader and an example the way Photoshop includes stock art. Of course DS makes creating harder for ordinary folk. It will probably make things harder and harder as DAZ customers become more and more of a captive audience. I'm sure it's a lot easier for PA's in the DAZ inner circle who get advance copies of DS and access to people who can tell you how stuff really works. But that ain't me, nor is it most people.
Why keep using V4? Well, for the same reason you might as well use V3 (much more realistic facial features) or V2 (TenTen, anyone?). Because when you pair modern features like the Morph Tool, subdiv, and bullet physics with older features like cloth dynamics, and render them with modern materials, you can get great results out of unique and high quality content that you already own. I have a ton of content for V4, but I think I have even more for V3 and A3. Sadly, not as many morphs. And I do really appreciate the weight mapped versions of V4.
And here's the thing. If we just replace V4, we'll have exactly the same problem we have now if that one figure creator decides they want to stop supporting Poser. The Victoria line is still full of innovations discovered and shared by the community. If you even look at 3D in general when V1 came out, Victoria wasn't special until we made her so. Most V1 and V2 morphs were custom. It wasn't until V3 that "characters" were just dial spins. JCM and ERC were community inventions. All that time, work, energy, and money will have gone to waste if we don't transfer what we learned to other figures. And it certainly doesn't make sense to make the same singular and risky investment a second time.
Over all, I think we need to get back to our roots. When I came to this community, new projects were greeted with cheers. People tried new things, and others encouraged them. Sure we cheered when people did stuff for new figures, but we were just as enthusiastic when people did things for older or less popular figures. People didn't bitch about Maya Doll, or tell BatLab or Yamato not to bother with her. We didn't try to silence people who liked Terai Yuki. I only saw people marvel when some forum member (I forget who) made the V2 teen into an amazingly real middle aged woman (one of the few Poser or DS figures I've ever seen who had proper hips). IIRC, that was during V3's reign. We championed projects that expanded what was possible in Poser. And we didn't spend so much energy discouraging others just because they wanted to do something different.
WandW posted Tue, 13 October 2015 at 6:36 AM
Excellent analysis, kobaltkween! The last paragraph really hits home...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
Dale B posted Tue, 13 October 2015 at 2:05 PM
What kobaltkween said.....
cyanthree posted Mon, 19 October 2015 at 2:04 PM
I will keep using V4 and poser, I played around with Genesis 2 in poser but to be honest I still think V4 with some fixes looks as good as if not better than G2 and all daz keep doing is launch new g models and then make you get the same stuff again , I honestly don't see any difference between G2 and G3, my spend on new content from vendors has gone down from around £200 a month to maybe £20 ATM as most vendors jumped on the G3 camp while its new.
Hopefully many will return to supporting V4 again in the future and tap into the people out there like me that have money to spend but only on content for the figures I like not the ones Daz want to push as the next must have.
moriador posted Mon, 19 October 2015 at 9:04 PM
kobaltkween posted at 6:48PM Mon, 19 October 2015 - #4233437
For me, "Why leave V4?" isn't quite the right question. For me, it's at least three different questions.
Why support a new figure? Because vendors won't keep making things for V4 (or M4). If you like buying new stuff, and you want that new stuff to work in Poser, you should support a modern Poser figure. Otherwise, vendors will eventually stop supporting Poser altogether. It's about time to you know what or get off the pot.
I have Dawn and SE Dawn and Dusk and their morphs and some skins -- and some gorgeous dynamic clothing. But before I buy anything else for them, I need to see something I want. I'm not just going to buy for the sake of putting money in vendors' hands. Hivewire might as well put a "donate" button on the site, if that's what we need to do.
Unfortunately, it's a catch-22. If people don't buy, vendors don't make. But if vendors don't make, people won't buy. This isn't solved by asking people to buy things they don't want. Nor is it solved by asking vendors to make things people don't buy. That's the market, and unfortunately, if Poser content cannot make it in the market, then It speaks to a weakness in the business model somewhere. This was predicted by numerous people. And now, when I look at Renderosity and RDNA, I see those predictions coming true.
Now it's got to the point that customers like me aren't asking whether such and such a figure will continue to be supported, but whether the software itself has a future. [Edit: I think it does -- among those DIY'ers who like to kitbash, convert, and model their own stuff. But I don't have the same optimism about Poser content because, for obvious reasons, content was never strongly enough supported by the very people who like to boast that they make their own. It's the non-creators that get belittled so much in the community who mostly funded all that development you described. And now, I guess, too many of us are saying, "No."]
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
AmbientShade posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 5:34 AM
moriador posted at 4:42AM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234355
Now it's got to the point that customers like me aren't asking whether such and such a figure will continue to be supported, but whether the software itself has a future. [Edit: I think it does -- among those DIY'ers who like to kitbash, convert, and model their own stuff. But I don't have the same optimism about Poser content because, for obvious reasons, content was never strongly enough supported by the very people who like to boast that they make their own. It's the non-creators that get belittled so much in the community who mostly funded all that development you described. And now, I guess, too many of us are saying, "No."]
I was thinking pretty much the same thing while reading the first part of your post.
I think Poser itself will last for a while, among the die-hard fans that prefer it over all the other software available and are willing/able to customize the content they have to suit their needs, and those who learn how to make their own or are willing to pay someone what it costs to make it for them. But it does seem that the majority of content sales for it are dying out and there's a number of reasons for that. I do foresee a point where Poser is no longer being developed but still being used by the devotees. I do think there's still a fairly large market viability for environments though, and not very many people willing to to make them - maybe due to the time involved, or like with a lot of the female stuff, it's just easier to make a quick buck on another bikini that takes an hour or two to make than a house that takes weeks.
I've never been a big content buyer myself. I have bought some in the past when I came across things that I liked but most of that was in my earlier days of Posering. I've never had an interest in rendering pin-ups of scantily-clad females. The whole reason I started using Poser to begin with was because I wanted an easy way (lol) of creating visual representations of characters I was writing about, which were mostly male, and the more practical content, especially for males - just never existed or was usually of such low quality that I wasn't willing to spend money on it, or just didn't suit my needs. I have a personal philosophy that if I have to modify something I'm buying, beyond some retexturing or minor adjustments - then I might as well just build it myself from scratch. So I learned how to make things on my own. Over time that's grown into becoming a source of income for me by doing private commissions - the vast majority of which is for male characters because that's what I get the most requests for - you know, that content that never sells. ;)
These days if I buy anything it is either something I just don't have the patience or time to build myself, or - more commonly - a utility that makes my job of content creation easier or faster.
chaecuna posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 8:59 AM
Poser content market: what is happening is under the eyes of everybody. Little factoid for those who do not go to DAZ forums: Stonemason wrote that he has terminated Poser support and has uninstalled Poser; I do not think that there is anything more to add.
Poser itself: it is fast heading towards Bryce territory, a twilight zone of being neither alive nor dead. As long as you have a computer capable of running it you can keep running it; the wisdom of self marginalizing into a shrinking community is left to the pondering of the readers.
moriador posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 10:02 AM
AmbientShade posted at 7:47AM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234387
moriador posted at 4:42AM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234355
Now it's got to the point that customers like me aren't asking whether such and such a figure will continue to be supported, but whether the software itself has a future. [Edit: I think it does -- among those DIY'ers who like to kitbash, convert, and model their own stuff. But I don't have the same optimism about Poser content because, for obvious reasons, content was never strongly enough supported by the very people who like to boast that they make their own. It's the non-creators that get belittled so much in the community who mostly funded all that development you described. And now, I guess, too many of us are saying, "No."]
I was thinking pretty much the same thing while reading the first part of your post.
I think Poser itself will last for a while, among the die-hard fans that prefer it over all the other software available and are willing/able to customize the content they have to suit their needs, and those who learn how to make their own or are willing to pay someone what it costs to make it for them. But it does seem that the majority of content sales for it are dying out and there's a number of reasons for that. I do foresee a point where Poser is no longer being developed but still being used by the devotees. I do think there's still a fairly large market viability for environments though, and not very many people willing to to make them - maybe due to the time involved, or like with a lot of the female stuff, it's just easier to make a quick buck on another bikini that takes an hour or two to make than a house that takes weeks.
I've never been a big content buyer myself. I have bought some in the past when I came across things that I liked but most of that was in my earlier days of Posering. I've never had an interest in rendering pin-ups of scantily-clad females. The whole reason I started using Poser to begin with was because I wanted an easy way (lol) of creating visual representations of characters I was writing about, which were mostly male, and the more practical content, especially for males - just never existed or was usually of such low quality that I wasn't willing to spend money on it, or just didn't suit my needs. I have a personal philosophy that if I have to modify something I'm buying, beyond some retexturing or minor adjustments - then I might as well just build it myself from scratch. So I learned how to make things on my own. Over time that's grown into becoming a source of income for me by doing private commissions - the vast majority of which is for male characters because that's what I get the most requests for - you know, that content that never sells. ;)
These days if I buy anything it is either something I just don't have the patience or time to build myself, or - more commonly - a utility that makes my job of content creation easier or faster.
Agree. Even with environments, as chaecuna points out, Poser support is drying up. I expect that, over at Daz, the hassle of converting material shaders and making an additional set of promos, makes it not worth offering Poser support even for architectural props and such that might otherwise convert fairly easily. We could talk about why this is, but it would just turn into another "software war" thread.
I love Poser, for all the reasons Kobaltkween mentioned. But, me, I have enough content to do most anything I want. I can't imagine how a brand new user to Poser would see things, though.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
michelvanspeybroeck posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 2:30 PM
As a longtime poser user (since poser 2) i have recently downloaded daz studio and i am using it more then poser now. I did not like switching, but i had to. There is to much content out that is daz studio only and it is great content. I stil use poser, i will only upgrade poser to the next generation if it where possible to utilize new quality content.
All this in the long term is not good news for us users. I strongly belief in the benefits of companies having to compete. If daz would turn out to be the sole winner, we as user will pay for it money wise or in lesser quality. That is the nature of business.
So i hope that somehow there stil is a bright future for poser. I just can not see how that could be achieved.
I guess SM has some serious homework to do.
RorrKonn posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 3:28 PM
michelvanspeybroeck posted at 4:15PM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234451
As a longtime poser user (since poser 2) i have recently downloaded daz studio and i am using it more then poser now. I did not like switching, but i had to. There is to much content out that is daz studio only and it is great content. I stil use poser, i will only upgrade poser to the next generation if it where possible to utilize new quality content.
All this in the long term is not good news for us users. I strongly belief in the benefits of companies having to compete. If daz would turn out to be the sole winner, we as user will pay for it money wise or in lesser quality. That is the nature of business.
So i hope that somehow there stil is a bright future for poser. I just can not see how that could be achieved.
I guess SM has some serious homework to do.
Smith Micro has a list of softwares they sell.Poser is a software.
DAZ is a vendor.I know they make DAZ Studio but that was only so they could have more control as a vender. make there meshes compatible for all softwares .They even have Max n Maya on there home page Poser to
Smith Micro is not a vendor. None of the companies that owned Poser ever was a vendor. 90%+ of Poser users has always depended on DAZ n Vicky.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
michelvanspeybroeck posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 3:48 PM
RorrKonn posted at 3:34PM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234464
michelvanspeybroeck posted at 4:15PM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234451
As a longtime poser user (since poser 2) i have recently downloaded daz studio and i am using it more then poser now. I did not like switching, but i had to. There is to much content out that is daz studio only and it is great content. I stil use poser, i will only upgrade poser to the next generation if it where possible to utilize new quality content.
All this in the long term is not good news for us users. I strongly belief in the benefits of companies having to compete. If daz would turn out to be the sole winner, we as user will pay for it money wise or in lesser quality. That is the nature of business.
So i hope that somehow there stil is a bright future for poser. I just can not see how that could be achieved.
I guess SM has some serious homework to do.
Smith Micro has a list of softwares they sell.Poser is a software.
DAZ is a vendor.I know they make DAZ Studio but that was only so they could have more control as a vender. make there meshes compatible for all softwares .They even have Max n Maya on there home page Poser to
Smith Micro is not a vendor. None of the companies that owned Poser ever was a vendor. 90%+ of Poser users has always depended on DAZ n Vicky.
I am aware that SM is a software company with many titles but as in all companies every product has to make a profit and as big as possible.
The succes of poser was in no small account made possible by the symbiosis between daz and poser. That is no longer the case and poser is in real need of other content creator(s). Sure there are content creators in this community and although i admire the hard work of these creators it is impossible as smal business to compete with daz.
So although sm does not provide content they surely must be aware that there profits from poser software will diminish if they do not come up with some third company creating content or if they would invest in the vendors that still are creating quality content from this community.
moriador posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 4:18 PM
RorrKonn posted at 2:02PM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234464
michelvanspeybroeck posted at 4:15PM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234451
As a longtime poser user (since poser 2) i have recently downloaded daz studio and i am using it more then poser now. I did not like switching, but i had to. There is to much content out that is daz studio only and it is great content. I stil use poser, i will only upgrade poser to the next generation if it where possible to utilize new quality content.
All this in the long term is not good news for us users. I strongly belief in the benefits of companies having to compete. If daz would turn out to be the sole winner, we as user will pay for it money wise or in lesser quality. That is the nature of business.
So i hope that somehow there stil is a bright future for poser. I just can not see how that could be achieved.
I guess SM has some serious homework to do.
Smith Micro has a list of softwares they sell.Poser is a software.
DAZ is a vendor.I know they make DAZ Studio but that was only so they could have more control as a vender. make there meshes compatible for all softwares .They even have Max n Maya on there home page Poser to
Smith Micro is not a vendor. None of the companies that owned Poser ever was a vendor. 90%+ of Poser users has always depended on DAZ n Vicky.
Adobe is a software company. It does not make content either.
But, man, if you couldn't open, say TIFs with it or NEFs or TGAs or some other very commonly used file types within that industry, it would rapidly lose customers to the free software that does open those files -- except that with 2d files, it's possible to convert from one format to another easily. Moreover, it is possible to create content from scratch with nothing but Adobe software.
With Poser, you can create poses and materials using only Poser. But not models (unless you make them out of primitives). So SM is in a fairly unique position: they don't sell much supporting content for software that can't be used to create its own.
At some point, once you start using other software to create content -- because YOU HAVE TO -- isn't there always the chance that you might pose and render in that software as well? Unless Poser can keep up with future advances in full featured modelling software -- which is has so far, granted -- I'm wondering why any new customer would buy it at all.
The bigger issue is that it's also always possible that a large portion of Poser owners only bought or used the software in order to create content for it. If those people aren't planning on creating more content for Poser, they won't be buying Poser 11, either. Every vendor (or even freebie maker) who goes wholeheartedly over to making Daz Studio content is another customer lost to SM.
I think the technical term for what's about to happen is a downward spiral.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
RorrKonn posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 5:35 PM
Smith Micro has a list of softwares they sell.Poser is a software.
DAZ is a vendor.I know they make DAZ Studio but that was only so they could have more control as a vender. make there meshes compatible for all softwares .They even have Max n Maya on there home page Poser to
Smith Micro is not a vendor. None of the companies that owned Poser ever was a vendor. 90%+ of Poser users has always depended on DAZ n Vicky.
I am aware that SM is a software company with many titles but as in all companies every product has to make a profit and as big as possible.
The succes of poser was in no small account made possible by the symbiosis between daz and poser. That is no longer the case and poser is in real need of other content creator(s). Sure there are content creators in this community and although i admire the hard work of these creators it is impossible as smal business to compete with daz.
So although sm does not provide content they surely must be aware that there profits from poser software will diminish if they do not come up with some third company creating content or if they would invest in the vendors that still are creating quality content from this community.
I really wouldn't expect Smith Micro to become vendors. Some of Smith Micro app's do not have a large users base. Guess when Poser is worthless to them there do like all the other companies n sell Poser.
At one time DAZ did make them a offer to add there code to Poser. Which would have made DAZ part owner of Poser. Who knows we might end up with DAZ Poser.
I can only assume Poser users will start depending on HW3D n Dawn like they did DAZ n Vicky.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
AmbientShade posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 5:42 PM
RorrKonn posted at 6:37PM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234464
michelvanspeybroeck posted at 4:15PM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234451
As a longtime poser user (since poser 2) i have recently downloaded daz studio and i am using it more then poser now. I did not like switching, but i had to. There is to
Smith Micro has a list of softwares they sell.Poser is a software.
DAZ is a vendor.I know they make DAZ Studio but that was only so they could have more control as a vender. make there meshes compatible for all softwares .They even have Max n Maya on there home page Poser to
Those figures aren't compatible with max and maya out of the box, you still have to use FBX or buy a $90 alembic plug-in for them to work in those apps. Poser has the FBX and BVH covered, just not the alembic support.
RorrKonn posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 5:50 PM
Smith Micro has a list of softwares they sell.Poser is a software.
DAZ is a vendor.I know they make DAZ Studio but that was only so they could have more control as a vender. make there meshes compatible for all softwares .They even have Max n Maya on there home page Poser to
Smith Micro is not a vendor. None of the companies that owned Poser ever was a vendor. 90%+ of Poser users has always depended on DAZ n Vicky.
Adobe is a software company. It does not make content either.
But, man, if you couldn't open, say TIFs with it or NEFs or TGAs or some other very commonly used file types within that industry, it would rapidly lose customers to the free software that does open those files -- except that with 2d files, it's possible to convert from one format to another easily. Moreover, it is possible to create content from scratch with nothing but Adobe software.
With Poser, you can create poses and materials using only Poser. But not models (unless you make them out of primitives). So SM is in a fairly unique position: they don't sell much supporting content for software that can't be used to create its own.
At some point, once you start using other software to create content -- because YOU HAVE TO -- isn't there always the chance that you might pose and render in that software as well? Unless Poser can keep up with future advances in full featured modelling software -- which is has so far, granted -- I'm wondering why any new customer would buy it at all.
The bigger issue is that it's also always possible that a large portion of Poser owners only bought or used the software in order to create content for it. If those people aren't planning on creating more content for Poser, they won't be buying Poser 11, either. Every vendor (or even freebie maker) who goes wholeheartedly over to making Daz Studio content is another customer lost to SM.
I think the technical term for what's about to happen is a downward spiral.
At one time Photoshop cost to much now it's dirt cheap n there running specials all the time. Now there having difficulties giving Photoshop away.Wonder if all the $50 2D app's have anything to do with that.
ah Poser has never keeped up ,not even close.Not geting SubD's untill 2014 just says it all.
No I'm not exporting a character out of Houdini a $4500 app that has a $200 indie license to Posers.
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Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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RorrKonn posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 5:58 PM
AmbientShade posted at 6:57PM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234489
RorrKonn posted at 6:37PM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234464
michelvanspeybroeck posted at 4:15PM Tue, 20 October 2015 - #4234451
As a longtime poser user (since poser 2) i have recently downloaded daz studio and i am using it more then poser now. I did not like switching, but i had to. There is to
Smith Micro has a list of softwares they sell.Poser is a software.
DAZ is a vendor.I know they make DAZ Studio but that was only so they could have more control as a vender. make there meshes compatible for all softwares .They even have Max n Maya on there home page Poser to
Those figures aren't compatible with max and maya out of the box, you still have to use FBX or buy a $90 alembic plug-in for them to work in those apps. Poser has the FBX and BVH covered, just not the alembic support.
If I used a DAZ Poser character in Houdini I would just rig it in Houdini.no worries then ;)
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
chaecuna posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 6:26 PM
Photoshop is not comparable to Poser. The only requirement to fully use Photoshop is a good eye-hand coordination; to fully use Poser you have to master modeling/UV mapping (in a different application(s)), master creating shaders in Poser and, if we are talking about humanoid figures, rigging in Poser. The complexity and variety of tasks required is significant and therefore the vast majority of Poser users will inevitably be buyers or at most kitbashers of content, who critically rely upon 3rd party products.
Poser (or DAZ Studio or Vue or Unity3D or Unreal Engine or iClone or whatever similar application) without content is like a fish without water, i.e. dead. Smith Micro should have had this very clear in their minds back in 2011: they had to decide whether to follow DAZ, licensing their tech or immediately and seriously nurture of a DAZ-indipendent content ecosystem. They did nothing like that (maybe following the myopic rants of the we-dont-need-no-stinkin-content crowd) and now we are seeing the inevitable outcome of that fatal mistake.
adh3d posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 7:21 PM
Please, tell your opinons, but people are saying that poser is almost dead, ask DAz3d why they made DSON. If Poser is dead, why not go on with the "only DAZ studio support" in genesis.
I don't know the future of Poser, but I don't know the future of Genesis either, because, although the "figure" is great, if you want to use it, you must to use DS, and some people hate that application.
Zev0 posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 7:49 PM
Poser isn't dead. You cannot kill an app. However, lack of AAA content support can eventually seal it's fate in terms of user growth and future development for it. Also at the time Daz made Dson, Poser was part of its plans. However that is no longer the case as Genesis 3 is no longer Poser compatible. So yeah, SM needs to stand on their own two feet now. The company that kept them going with content support is on a different path, and by the looks of it, so are all the mainstream stores. So, there is a difference in opinion and fact adh3d. Fact is, Poser support is on the decrease. The question is, what can SM do to change that?
false1 posted Tue, 20 October 2015 at 8:15 PM
I'm not as worried about Poser as I am my ability to keep working with it. Poser could have a long happy life as part of a higher end pipeline. It could continue as a tool for using pre-made figures and content in conjunction with other software like Photoshop, Blender, C4d, Vue, Illustrator and others. It could retain and build a user base of creatives that weren't afraid of postwork, dynamic cloth, the fitting room or exporting an obj for custom morphs. There won't be as much content, but the people who thrive on alternative workflows can work around it. Studio users certainly did for a long time. I think there are more people outside the content community than we know of that are using Poser in a lot of different ways.
________________________________
ssgbryan posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 12:31 AM
I still use her - I got a wonderful collection of 1st nation morphs over at RDNA that I can't live without - and are not available on any newer figure - or I'd be using it. Not my default figure - I like variety. I belong to the "Right tool for the right job" school as opposed to the "1 size fits all" school.
I have been playing around with the golum over the past year (Turning it into a Poser native figure - No DSON needed.) I have a lot of g1 & 2 content (over 800 packages according to the incredibly accurately named DIM.). The only thing that g3 brought to the table was a fat chick. Color me unimpressed.
Be careful what you wish for......
If you guys and gals want to go down the genesis road, just understand the costs involved. The costs are serious, even you buy everything at 72% off, like I did. Much more than a new copy of Poser Pro (I am not talking the upgrade price, I am talking MSRP). I won't address the computer costs - you Mac users, for the most part are SOL, unless you have one of the good Mac Pros. Ask yourself, how many hookerware outfits will you forgo for that Nvidia card?
There is no fun quite like reading the phrase:
Find someone to help you.
In the "documentation". Yes, that has been in the document center for a few years now. No, I don't believe that they will fix it - this is a QA team that after four months, still cannot figure out how to package an OSX product with an OSX installer.
There is no one in the DS world that is an equivalent to the folks we have in the Poserverse forums - there are no BagginBills, Nerd-3d, Snarrly-gribbly, extending out DS the way they have.
Is a fat chick really worth this aggravation?
Good luck in finding content you have purchased - most of the clothing texture packs have no indication of what product they work with. They are all hidden away under ego folders. Did I mention how much drilling down you will be doing? God forbid you have a product made for both g1& g2. The recomended file structure changed between g1 & g2. (See the Mad Nurse product for an extreme example). You WILL be spending quality time rationilizing what DS uses for a runtime.
Another annoyance - when you are looking at those characters - the only way to tell if the figure is a stand alone or the DS equivalent of a .pz2 file is your memory. Good luck with that.
By all means, have fun buying the same products over and over (Some clothing products have objs that go back to the P6 Jessi timefame (I bought them here).
Any of you total up the cost of the "clones" you will need to move clothing between generations? For that matter, buying all of the add-ons to move your legacy content over is about the cost of Poser Pro in and of itself - I've run the numbers.
Understand that the concept of movement morphs in clothing is a lost art with most of the genesis vendors. I don't know about the rest of you, but I kinda got used to them a decade ago. Nothing like having a male suit with no sit morphs. Easy fix of course, just drag the product into the cloth room and.... oh, wait.
By all means, enjoy going back to a Poser 4 feature set - I'll pass. Have fun with the fat chick.
Take special note of the vendors who are using the same texture sets for each of their separate characters (more than one of the "cool kid" vendors is pulling this stunt - nothing is more irritating to me than to discover that I dropped 10.77 on what at the end of the day was nothing but a set of dial spins.). They really, really don't like the idea of YOU repurposing resources you paid for.
Speaking of that - did anyone here notice that the entire Daz g2 line up had fewer characters released for it than were released for the SM G2 line (I counted - did you?). (Most of the "Sculpts" - Aiko 6, Olympia 6, etc only managed six or seven characters, the males were even less). Have fun figuring out how to make your images "unique" when you have fewer and fewer resources available to you.
For all of it's alledged better bending, it's still getting fix products released to fix flaws.
I realize that most of you won't care about the "All Caucasians, All The Time", but if you are story telling outside of a Logan's Run universe, you are going to be quite limited in what you can do - and what is up with all of those blue-eyed Asians?
Note how the price goes up & you get less (with the g2f, anyone notice that with many figures, nail colors are no longer included, those are now a separate product - I did.). Note how it becomes more difficult (not to mention expensive) with each generation to use the figures - pay special attention to the aforementioned "cool kid" vendors - they get access to tools that the great unwashed mass of vendors don't have access to ("HD" morphs, anyone?).
Pay special attention to the fact that the figures themselves are 50% more expensive that the prior version, which in turn, are more expensive than the first version. Have fun keeping up with the constant changes in direction.
All of this for a fat chick?
DAZ is selling single use razorblades. SM sells us the Barbershop.
RorrKonn posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 2:10 AM
ssgbryan ,really don't hold back just tell us how you fell ;) You have over 800 packs and 0 renders in the gallery ? How much money have you made off the 800 packs ? Did you make a profit ?
DAZ is a vendor .There business is to make money selling meshes. Can't hate them for that. But any vendor you don't like there business practices ,Well don't buy from them problem solved.
lets see I've been around since Poser3,4 V3,4 and I have bought maybe $200.00 or $300.00 worth of stuff.If you want my $$$ you half to earn it.
You might want to try HiveWire3D character Dawn. or adh3d characters
============================================================
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Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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RorrKonn posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 2:14 AM
adh3d what app did you make your characters in ?
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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Dale B posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 7:31 AM
chaecuna posted at 7:20AM Wed, 21 October 2015 - #4234394
Poser content market: what is happening is under the eyes of everybody. Little factoid for those who do not go to DAZ forums: Stonemason wrote that he has terminated Poser support and has uninstalled Poser; I do not think that there is anything more to add.
Poser itself: it is fast heading towards Bryce territory, a twilight zone of being neither alive nor dead. As long as you have a computer capable of running it you can keep running it; the wisdom of self marginalizing into a shrinking community is left to the pondering of the readers.
So....Stefan has gone DS exclusive. I wish him well. Wow. The world didn't end. The man does brilliant work, but he is also one man. I'll miss his work, and he'll miss my money. I'll find alternatives, and he'll find other customers.
And as I just said in the Vue forum as wails and gnashing of teeth have begun with E-on being acquired by Bentley Systems, let us add chaecuna's and a few others death bells to Poser's demise, which has ringing across the valleys since P5...6...7...8...9...10....and continues as P11/Pro-2016 heads for the finish line..... Nuff said there.
As for the topic of the thread.... Mesh never expires. It's a resource, not a be all and end all, unless you are a modeler. That isn't the ground Poser is on. It fits into pipelines, and turns out acceptable figure animations much quicker than commissioning custom would get you. As long as there is the need for such, Poser has a home.
wolf359 posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 9:38 AM
"As for the topic of the thread.... Mesh never expires. It's a resource, not a be all and end all, unless you are a modeler"
Ha!! Spoken Like a true Animator!! but Alas, my comrade, for many in the still render majority, having the latest version # of "vicky" seems to hold some bizarre importance for their "web gallery" uploads. and there is always the matter of having the latest content etc. as well.
I was actually in the thread where stonemason
made his official proclaimation
He does still release his products as UV mapped
.obj files though.
and DAZ studio has an excellent obj exporter with texture collecting features
so as a User of C4D, with a third partyprofessional .obj/MDD Data handler, I still have access to Stephans products.
In fact I just added his awesome new "NWX section18" set to my current sci fi film project.
Technically one can do the same with poser but there is a one time tedious manual application of textures after import.
perhaps another feature to request for poser ..an improved .obj importer.
moriador posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 11:14 AM
chaecuna posted at 8:48AM Wed, 21 October 2015 - #4234496
Photoshop is not comparable to Poser. The only requirement to fully use Photoshop is a good eye-hand coordination; to fully use Poser you have to master modeling/UV mapping (in a different application(s)), master creating shaders in Poser and, if we are talking about humanoid figures, rigging in Poser. The complexity and variety of tasks required is significant and therefore the vast majority of Poser users will inevitably be buyers or at most kitbashers of content, who critically rely upon 3rd party products.
Poser (or DAZ Studio or Vue or Unity3D or Unreal Engine or iClone or whatever similar application) without content is like a fish without water, i.e. dead. Smith Micro should have had this very clear in their minds back in 2011: they had to decide whether to follow DAZ, licensing their tech or immediately and seriously nurture of a DAZ-indipendent content ecosystem. They did nothing like that (maybe following the myopic rants of the we-dont-need-no-stinkin-content crowd) and now we are seeing the inevitable outcome of that fatal mistake.
That was my precisely point -- to answer the statement that SM is a software company. Photoshop is an example of software that thrives without pre-made content for it. Poser is not.
false1 -- That's how I see it too. Poser may still stick around fairly happily, though perhaps without the same large army of people dedicated to extending its usefulness with scripts and so on. But, as I said, I'm not that optimistic about third party Poser content.
ssgbryan -- "There is no one in the DS world that is an equivalent to the folks we have in the Poserverse forums - there are no BagginBills, Nerd-3d, Snarrly-gribbly, extending out DS the way they have."
This is the greatest strength of Poser and the Poser community. It drives me nuts to ask a question about how to do something that should be simple in DS and be answered with a link to a product.
What I always liked best about Poser is that you had a choice about how you used it: if you wanted to buy pre-made solutions without ever lifting the hood, as it were, you could. But if you preferred to DIY, that has always been an option. Or you could do some combination: buy some things, do some things yourself.... For all its faults, the Poser community has never been stingy with information about how to get the most out of the software. And, when you think about it, the sheer number and quality of the free python utilities is stunning.
Wolf -- If you use FBX export from DS, the textures will come attached, and the scaling and positioning of the props is correct. I did this with Stefans Old London set, and it was a helluva lot easier than importing each and every obj. I found that a couple of the props had two or three messed up polys. So the export process is far from perfect. But with the obj's available, I can use a script to extract the exported geometry from the saved PP2 and replace it with the obj. Or make an MC6 from the FBX prop, import the obj, scale and position it with the FBX prop as a guide, and apply the material I saved. So those few odd polys are quite fixable. I estimate a time usage of about 30 minutes to get a fully functional set like Old London working perfectly in Poser. It's added work, to be sure. But for some vendors' creations, I think worth it.
Edit: But I can't help feeling the sharp sting of irony. How many times have Poser users complained about having to "jump through hoops" to get Daz content to work for them? Oh, my. Better start stretching. The hoops we may have to jump through from now on will be high and narrow and numerous.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
adh3d posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 1:29 PM
Hi, I always model in wings3d, character or other 3d models. My last character,the second version of adman, I am working in it now,was modelled in wings3d too. For box modelling is the best tool out there and free ;)
About DSON, I don't think it was the first idea from DAZ, I think it was a "quick and dirty" solution so people can use Genesis in some way in Poser, and I think it is because they thought that people "run" to use Genesis in DS, and forgot many People love DAZ characters but love even more Poser.
Anyway, I don't think we have to leave any figure, all 4 generation of DAZ3d figures are great today , yes, Genesis could be better, but we can create great art with them , there is another great figures out there, Apollo, although is older, is still a great figure yet, and many more. Genesis is great for sure, but DSON isn't.
Sometimes I think we forget that figures are only a tool to make our art, no the target itself.
Dale B posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 2:18 PM
wolf359 posted at 2:09PM Wed, 21 October 2015 - #4234562
"As for the topic of the thread.... Mesh never expires. It's a resource, not a be all and end all, unless you are a modeler"
Ha!! Spoken Like a true Animator!! but Alas, my comrade, for many in the still render majority, having the latest version # of "vicky" seems to hold some bizarre importance for their "web gallery" uploads. and there is always the matter of having the latest content etc. as well.
I was actually in the thread where stonemason made his official proclaimation He does still release his products as UV mapped .obj files though. and DAZ studio has an excellent obj exporter with texture collecting features
so as a User of C4D, with a third partyprofessional .obj/MDD Data handler, I still have access to Stephans products. In fact I just added his awesome new "NWX section18" set to my current sci fi film project.Technically one can do the same with poser but there is a one time tedious manual application of textures after import.
perhaps another feature to request for poser ..an improved .obj importer.
Thank you very much, sir! I don't think the ones asking for muscle armatures quite get that they have to sim an animation to get the look right either. But maybe one day, the switch will click and the masses will realize you can not be Dr Frankenstein unless your monster actually lives and moves....
Yeah, the .obj handler could use some help. But... applying textures? By HAND? Aaaaaaagh! ....as if I haven't done that 592,677 times in the past as it is..... Tedious, but not a real technical challenge, is it? Plus it gives you the chance to tuck your own custom shaders in there.
A really robust FBX/MDD import/export addition would be heavenly, though....
RorrKonn posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 5:14 PM
adh3d posted at 6:11PM Wed, 21 October 2015 - #4234591
Hi, I always model in wings3d, character or other 3d models. My last character,the second version of adman, I am working in it now,was modelled in wings3d too. For box modelling is the best tool out there and free ;)
About DSON, I don't think it was the first idea from DAZ, I think it was a "quick and dirty" solution so people can use Genesis in some way in Poser, and I think it is because they thought that people "run" to use Genesis in DS, and forgot many People love DAZ characters but love even more Poser.
Anyway, I don't think we have to leave any figure, all 4 generation of DAZ3d figures are great today , yes, Genesis could be better, but we can create great art with them , there is another great figures out there, Apollo, although is older, is still a great figure yet, and many more. Genesis is great for sure, but DSON isn't.
Sometimes I think we forget that figures are only a tool to make our art, no the target itself.
it originally went DAZ genesis needed genesis code that Poser did not have. DAZ offered to put the code in Poser. Poser said no.
then came DSON
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
RorrKonn posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 5:32 PM
import export ,to heck with all that .Poser alt to team up with DAZ .let DAZ put there genesis code in Poser and be done with it.
All problems solved
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
adh3d posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 7:14 PM
You have to understand taht , since DAZ3d create Daz Studio, DAZ3d is not only a content creator, is a software competitor for SM, so, how can SM let their competitor include a part of software in Poser, it had been a suicide.
I have to add that if DAZ3d had wanted to make a figure compatible with Poser, the could do that just making two versions, genesis for DS and, we can say , V5 for Poser, using Poser weight mapping, but Daz take a way, and it is their own way, create content for their own software.
Zev0 posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 7:28 PM
Two native versions was NOT an option. Content creators would say to hell with that. Dson made it easy to port content over to Poser. For years in most cases content was Poser only or Daz only. Dson's aim was to eliminate that. Go look at Hivewire the hoops people have to go through to support a native Dawn and Poser version. Hell, they are still waiting for a Poser version of Axel. With Dson, it was a godsend for duel support. But because it could not be implemented properly in Poser, Dson sales suffered and eventually people dropped support all together. So support Native Poser and Native Studio? LOL, no thanks. That's nearly twice the work and most developers these days will just walk away. The apps today are way too different to support two native formats. Some form of emulation has to be present, or you will get support for either or, but rarely both platforms. But the decision not to implemented Dson was made, and Daz has moved on, and so should we.
Also Daz's code would not affect Poser, it would be an additional option, just like adding a new PBR. However, SM opted for the cheaper option when Hivewire announced Dawn & Dusk and jumped on them for support and told Daz to shove Dson where the sun doesn't shine, because adding Dson code would mean some additional effort. Guess SM fell for Hivewires BS hype as well. So there you have it. Instead of proper Genesis implementation, SM banked on Hivewire. In my opinion, a risky business decision putting your hopes on a new site that hasn't proved itself.
Zev0 posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 7:48 PM
So...If you want content support for Poser, don't really expect it coming from developers and vendors from Daz, you have to look elsewhere, because that ship has sailed. Granted, the Dson implementation decisions were made from the old management, and now the new Poser team has to try and steer the ship without it.
adh3d posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 8:03 PM
Zev0 I don't think SM take the option you say because a "cheap" version or additional effort, I think they take that option because dson code option had been fatten the competitor (DAZ) who wanted to keep your software market, this is not a real option for SM since DAZ take the "software" way.,SM and DAZ are today two competitors software companies, not a software and a content creator companies.
Zev0 posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 8:09 PM
They have been fattening Daz for years with V4 and content sales. Daz provided Poser with content and SM never saw any financial gains off content they sold, only app sales. So what is your point? Let's just deny users further support of their new figures and content? SM sells the app, not content. More content compatibility for them would be beneficial to their software because they do not provide content themselves (and no I do not consider the shipped with content as content in the greater scale of things). So I do not understand your logic. I would agree with you if SM sold figures, and content for them, where Daz figures and content would then be considered direct competition, however that is not the case.
shvrdavid posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 8:25 PM
Zev, If content developers don't want to support two versions, all they are doing is making the divide between Studio and Poser even bigger. I am sure you support that 100%, because you keep repeating it in every Poser forum you go too. So you stop supporting two versions, drop Poser, then want Poser to add the content you make compatible. There is something odd about that. Really odd....
You always jump right on the Poser wont add Studio support, and for years the opposite never happened. The only Poser stuff added to Studio was to support Daz Figures and content. It is ironic that no one ever mentions that there is a boat load of Poser stuff that does not work in Studio. You never mention that, and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why. All you do is fault Poser for not doing something that would add to Genesis sales, your sales, and that is the bottom line.
I have no idea what your talking about when it comes to Dawn either. Dawn is a Studio figure that was converted to Poser, not the other way around. It was designed for Studio, not for Poser. I am sure you will tell everyone differently, but most of us know better. You claim to know a lot about things, but you don't. It is just your opinion twisted into a sudo fact. Then splattered on various forums. Hivewire3D and a few people from the community corrected Dawn to get it to work in Poser, and everyone knows that but you apparently. Converting things from Studio to Poser is not that hard to do either, contrary to what you want people to think. But telling people just the opposite fits your agenda better doesn't it. Ironically you said it was easy at first, and then did a 180 and claimed how it all but doubles the work in the same post. Don't tell the people here that most of the conversion is scriptable, because that wont fit what your trying to do.
As far as Daz code not affecting Poser, you bumped your head.... You can add something which appears to be very simple to a program and then spend weeks hammering out other areas it negatively affects. God forbid merging two code bases and expecting it to go well, because it will be a mess. It isn't as simple as you claim it is, and anyone with any programming experience knows better. You are just hoping that no one that programs reads your posts, but that is not the case.
As far as a Daz Figure for Poser goes, If Daz wanted to release a Poser figure they would have already. It could be an entirely different line from Genesis, etc. But they have chosen not to do so, which is fine. Studio left Poser, let it go. Poser is on the same path it has been on for 20 years, let it continue on that path and be done with it. I don't see any other companies lining up to add Genesis code to their programs, and there is a good reason for that. They don't want it either.
If you want to improve Poser, then help Poser continue on the path, its own path. Stop beating the dead horse about SM not adding Genesis support, whatever, whatever, whatever, etc.
Mods, feel free to do whatever you want with this post....
Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->
Zev0 posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 9:09 PM
I have no idea what your talking about when it comes to Dawn either. Dawn is a Studio figure that was converted to Poser, not the other way around. It was designed for Studio, not for Poser. I am sure you will tell everyone differently, but most of us know better. You claim to know a lot about things, but you don't. It is just your opinion twisted into a sudo fact.
Really? Actually I know Dawn was developed in Studio and ported for Poser. In fact most of us do lol. Who was she aimed at shvrdavid? Daz users who had Genesis? Or Poser users looking for a replacement for V4? I remember the campaign quite well actually on multiple sites. All of them teamed up against Daz. Every company and site was listed in this huge campaign to support her for Poser and conveniently Daz's name was left out when ever the word community was brought up. Do you want me to bring up all the posts and pictures of who she was really aimed at? She was supposed to be the alternative to Genesis for Poser users. Don't let the fact that she was created in Daz cloud that. So yes, it is just my twisted opinion. You can warp everything I say, I do not care really. And FYI, I did not bring up Genesis. Just came in to correct a few assumptions. How about you shut every other Poser user who brings up Genesis? Yet you only seem to appear when I post. I've counted 3 times now. Also I don't feel I need to comment or defend myself about anything else I said. After all, it is just my opinion twisted into a sudo fact. Hmmm I see Nerd at Hivewire, I've seen pics of the two companies having lunch together. Hmmm, I wonder why Daz wasn't invited....Yes..Just my twisted opinion.
DreaminGirl posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 9:24 PM
Zev0 posted at 4:18AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234645
**Every company and site was listed in this huge campaign to support her for Poser and conveniently Daz's name was left out when ever the word community was brought up.
**
That's because Daz was not interested in cooperating, in fact ANY mention of Dawn in the forums got promptly deleted! I guess you have forgotten that members were forbidden from mentioning her in the beginning. In fact attempts from Hivewire to reach out to Daz has been dismissed.
And DSON importer not interfering with Poser code is bullshit. I had to uninstall it because it conflicted with other scripts.
Zev0 posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 9:35 PM
People also blamed Dson and Reality for not working when there were issues with El Capitan. Had Nothing to do with Posers code. Guess what, they can be updated to work and Posers code can remain intact. Maybe the other scripts that are causing issues need to be updated as well? Some of them are quite outdated. Again, does not really affect Posers code.
shvrdavid posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 9:48 PM
Whatever Zev. The fact remains that Daz bailed on Poser a long time ago, and now people, including you, think that SM should do something about it. Dawn was aimed as a proof of concept that a character could be supported and function in both programs sharing the same content, a point that you try to dismiss as being far to much work. I really don't care about the campaigns, etc. Because if you stop and think about it, SM hanging out with Hivewire is no big deal because it is still Chris Creek and crew.
So what do you do? You make a big deal out of the same people hanging out together just because one group has a new name.
You really make me wonder....
Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->
shvrdavid posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 10:55 PM
Zev, I'm glad you think Genesis is the way forward. If that is the case, you might as well stick to the Daz forums because Genesis 3 in not going to happen in Poser. You don't want Poser to move forward unless Genesis is in it, and you just basically said that for all to see. "We were willing" is past tense....
I'm guessing you supported every figure that came out of Daz, and now that many have left Daz you have absolutely no plans of supporting anything that does not come out of the Daz camp. It would not matter if there was a mass exodus for Daz again and another company sprang up, it just would not be worth supporting it in your eyes.
As far as to much work to do a conversion? I have never used Hivewires conversion service and do them with tools that I have. If taking an hour or so to convert a Studio piece of content to Poser is to much work for you, so be it. Considering I manually corrected Dawn for a SR1 template, I think I can say I know what I am talking about in that regard. I have corrected many other things from Studio to Poser as well, and it isn't rocket science contrary to what you keep saying. I have done far more for Poser "on the front line" than you will ever give me credit for.
Go stick to Genesis if that is what you think is the way forward. Genesis 3's dual quad rigging is nothing new, and was designed years ago to reduce memory overhead in video games. If using technology that old is moving forward, you have at it. Does it have advantages? Yes, but it also has disadvantages as well.
I will stick with using Houdini, Maya, Poser, Blender, Studio, etc. And use the programs for the strengths they have instead of wishing all of them were basically the same program.
As far as it being time to leave V4? (Which is the title of this thread) That depends on what you want out of Poser/Studio. I rarely use V4 and prefer V3s mesh over it and converting V4 stuff to V3 is really easy. I use Dawn, and a lot of other figures as well. I am not stuck to one wire frame, or the mentality that one could possibly be better than hundreds. I don't have a problem recycling content to use on other figures. I don't have a problem supporting new figures and have helped in the development of more than a few.
What I do have a problem with is knowing that people like you are going to try to convince everyone and their brother that Genesis would be a far better option than anything else right off the bat..
Oh, and Studio wasn't even around when V4 was released, so I fail to see the similarity in the business model. V4 in Studio used Poser content for years, not Studio content.
I am going to bow out of this thread and let you show your stuff, since everything you think is apparently gospel in the 3D world...........
Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->
moriador posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 11:10 PM
What's a "sudo fact"?
sudo apt-get install thetruth?
In any case, Poser may well be fine without Daz. Who knows? There may be lots of users who have never even heard of Daz. And how many others who are happy to make their own stuff?
So, for shvrdavid and others like him, who can more or less create their own content, it's not really a problem.
Poser content creators, on the other hand, will have problems, as it seems clear to me that the users who actually spend a fair amount of money on content are gravitating towards DS. The vendors will solve that by focusing on the market where they can actually make a buck.
It's quite possible that a small but robust niche market for Poser compatible content may evolve and thrive. Part of the problem of making money in the market was the sheer enormity of the competition among vendors. If a great many of them leave the Poser content market, those who remain will have a much bigger share of what remains. It might well be far more than they started with. In the end, this may turn out to be exactly what the Poserverse needed.
In the meantime, for the ordinary Poser user, there will be some sting of severe growing pains. Hence the continual complaining!
I guess we'll have a better idea of where things stand a year or two after Poser 11 is released. Until then... well. Anything could happen.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
Zev0 posted Wed, 21 October 2015 at 11:50 PM
Zev, I'm glad you think Genesis is the way forward. If that is the case, you might as well stick to the Daz forums because Genesis 3 in not going to happen in Poser. You don't want Poser to move forward unless Genesis is in it, and you just basically said that for all to see.
The question is, can Poser move forward without Daz and without Genesis3 and the vendors supporting them? I am not against Poser moving forward, but if moving forward is giving me another Roxie or Rex type offering to try and make a living from, then dammit yes I want Genesis in Poser. I am tired of all these alternate offerings that don't go anywhere that nobody really cares about. How can you expect vendors to invest in that? So yes I said it for all to see. Give me a solid platform to work with. But as Moriador said, let's see what Poser 11 has to offer.
RorrKonn posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 12:49 AM
you all's fighting would save me a lot of time if ya just said I hate you with one sentence that way I wouldn't half to read a book to get caught up on the thread.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
RorrKonn posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 1:12 AM
adh3d posted at 1:50AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234636
You have to understand taht , since DAZ3d create Daz Studio, DAZ3d is not only a content creator, is a software competitor for SM, so, how can SM let their competitor include a part of software in Poser, it had been a suicide.
I have to add that if DAZ3d had wanted to make a figure compatible with Poser, the could do that just making two versions, genesis for DS and, we can say , V5 for Poser, using Poser weight mapping, but Daz take a way, and it is their own way, create content for their own software.
I get what your saying but DAZ was the driving force behind Poser since V1 days. Poser has been bolt n sold multiple times. Just about ever version of Poser has a deferent company backing it. And those companies always abandoned us. Vendors came n went. The only constant in the last decade + is DAZ. DAZ made Poser ,not what ever company just happened to own it that week. With out DAZ there would be no Poser like we know today.
I was around during what we called the main App's 3D Wars. There's a old abandoned Truspace 7 ,now free. That will never be upgraded again and sooner or latter will not work on modern OS's. Truespaces name will fade away but Truespace is one of the founding fathers of 3D. Back in the Poser 3 days Softimage was the King of 3D. Now Softimage R.I.P. Lightwave is nothing what it once was. Adobe is nothing what it once was.
Truspace ,Softimage ,Lightwave .Where all greater App's then Poser.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
RorrKonn posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 1:33 AM
adh3d posted at 2:26AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234636
You have to understand taht , since DAZ3d create Daz Studio, DAZ3d is not only a content creator, is a software competitor for SM, so, how can SM let their competitor include a part of software in Poser, it had been a suicide.
I have to add that if DAZ3d had wanted to make a figure compatible with Poser, the could do that just making two versions, genesis for DS and, we can say , V5 for Poser, using Poser weight mapping, but Daz take a way, and it is their own way, create content for their own software.
DAZ never has abandoned us the user. There still here for us. They might have out grown Poser but DAZ never abandoned us. There's nothing wrong with growing . If DAZ made a V7 DAZ version and a V7 Poser version. The V7 Poser version would still be limited with out the genesis code. V7 needs a mesh ,textures ,rigs and genesis code to fulfil her full potential. So DAZ can't make a V7 Poser version that's = to the V7 DAZ version with out the genesis code. That's why DAZ doesn't make a V7 Poser version.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
RorrKonn posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 1:43 AM
adh3d posted at 2:40AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234591
Hi, I always model in wings3d, character or other 3d models. My last character,the second version of adman, I am working in it now,was modelled in wings3d too. For box modelling is the best tool out there and free ;)
I've seen killer work done with wings3D but to me Truespace will always be my fav modeler .I still hate it got abandoned.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
AmbientShade posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 5:26 AM
Genesis is not going to happen in Poser. It's been stated repeatedly. Smith Micro is not interested in licensing DAZ file formats and DAZ isn't interested in giving their formats away. Constantly creating arguments about it in the forums is not going to change that fact. It's been years and nothing has changed. If SM thought Genesis would boost sales of their software to any significant degree, then they've had plenty of time to determine that. Obviously the benefit does not outweigh the detriment in doing so or they would have by now. They can't legally make it work in Poser without DAZ's permission, and DAZ wants money for that permission. Poser is not dependent on content creators for its success. If it were, then there wouldn't be another version of Poser being developed right now. Content creators are dependent on Poser. If you want to make a living creating content for Poser then create content that works in Poser. No one is stopping you. It's your responsibility to create content that people want to buy. Poser provides the tools to do so but it's not going to make you a good artist, only you can do that. There are a number of successful content artists making their livings from Poser content completely independent of whatever DAZ is doing. There are also a number of Poser users who create their own content and aren't dependent on what some other content provider is or isn't doing. If your success as a content artist depends on a 3rd party's content then maybe you need to reassess your skills as a content artist. There are dozens of figures that work just fine in Poser. Pick one and make content for it or improve it into something that people want to use. You think that can't be done or that it's a waste of time? Look at Anastasia. Before she came along no one wanted to use Alyson. One artist turned her into something a whole bunch of people wanted to use, and it didn't require a single bit of anything from DAZ. Neither did the characters built off of her. And 4 years later she's still selling. How many versions of Genesis have come along since then? I doubt her creator thinks Anastasia was a waste of time. The same can be done with any figure in Poser's library and the only thing that's stopping anyone from doing so is themselves.
chaecuna posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 8:12 AM
AmbientShade posted at 3:08PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234678
Poser is not dependent on content creators for its success.
In a matter of months your no-content nirvana will be among us; I am going to sit on the river bank, eating popcorn and enjoying the amusing show of how Poser will thrive in such environment.
bhoins posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 9:16 AM
AmbientShade posted at 8:13AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234678
They can't legally make it work in Poser without DAZ's permission, and DAZ wants money for that permission.
Doesn't matter how many times this is corrected, this misinformation still comes up.
DSON is an open character notation format. SM does not need a license to import it. Just like they don't need a license to import OBJ or FBX.
Genesis has happened in Poser. Genesis and Genesis 2 are both in Poser through the use of the DSON Importer for Poser. Is it ideal? No. Primarily because the Poser API requires you to go in through the Python Interface, which is limited and slow. The biggest slowdowns when dealing with DSON content in Poser? Poser's draw and API.
Could it be better? Sure, if the programmers at SM made the importer internally or offered a better API.
false1 posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 9:23 AM
RorrKonn posted at 10:23AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234663
you all's fighting would save me a lot of time if ya just said I hate you with one sentence that way I wouldn't half to read a book to get caught up on the thread.
Funny!
________________________________
AmbientShade posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 10:25 AM
bhoins posted at 11:24AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234694
AmbientShade posted at 8:13AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234678
They can't legally make it work in Poser without DAZ's permission, and DAZ wants money for that permission.
Doesn't matter how many times this is corrected, this misinformation still comes up.
DSON is an open character notation format. SM does not need a license to import it. Just like they don't need a license to import OBJ or FBX.
Genesis has happened in Poser. Genesis and Genesis 2 are both in Poser through the use of the DSON Importer for Poser. Is it ideal? No. Primarily because the Poser API requires you to go in through the Python Interface, which is limited and slow. The biggest slowdowns when dealing with DSON content in Poser? Poser's draw and API.
Could it be better? Sure, if the programmers at SM made the importer internally or offered a better API.
I don't go by what random people in forums state. I go by what I've heard directly from Poser's product managers, both former and current. If you think they're wrong then you need to take it up with them. In the meantime what they say is the official wording.
ssgbryan posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 10:34 AM
moriador posted at 9:15AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234656
It's quite possible that a small but robust niche market for Poser compatible content may evolve and thrive. Part of the problem of making money in the market was the sheer enormity of the competition among vendors. If a great many of them leave the Poser content market, those who remain will have a much bigger share of what remains. It might well be far more than they started with. In the end, this may turn out to be exactly what the Poserverse needed.
The nightmare scenario for Zev0 is Poser vendors moving en masse to genesis. The only reason Zev0 is making the money at the moment is due to the paucity of DS vendors. Not hard to make money with DS products if you are the only one filling a niche. He is in trouble if the folks that make correction products and morph sets for V4 move into his space. They have a much better reputation, not to mention a longer track history.
The same can be said for the half dozen vendors that regularly make characters for the golum. They will have to up their game - no more using the same texture maps for every one of their figures.
I suspect the clothing vendors at Daz will exit the market. The quality of the products they make aren't as good as what vendors were selling at Daz a decade ago. Increased competition isn't good for vendor's bottom line.
AmbientShade posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 11:18 AM
BHoins the issue is not about dson it is about native Genesis support in Poser.
bhoins posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 11:48 AM
AmbientShade posted at 10:40AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234711
BHoins the issue is not about dson it is about native Genesis support in Poser.
And since the format Genesis is in is DSON, then importing Genesis is indeed about reading the format.
bhoins posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 11:53 AM
ssgbryan posted at 10:48AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234708
Your argument that SM should take over the development of 64-bit Python from the developers of Python, just so they could rewrite Daz's code. And it WOULD have to be rewritten. Moving from 32-bit to 64-bit is a hell of a lot more than just pointing at new libraries. Ask Adobe or Microsoft.
You are right on 1 thing - The DSON Importer for Poser is certainly not ideal. Fortunately, we can bypass it. File - Export. Spend 10 - 15 minutes converting those .duf PCF to native Poser .mc6s, .pz2s, .cr2s, etc. If I can figure out how to do it in less than 30 minutes with no documentation from Daz (as usual), so could a vendor.
LOL. Really? I never said Poser needs to rewrite Python. The API could have access other than Python. Even with the current python, there are definite places the current API could be significantly more efficient.
And your export to Cr2 does not produce the same functionality, which is why that method was dropped. But you knew that already.
AmbientShade posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 12:12 PM
Again, Smith Micro has stated that they cannot legally implement the code. Which means that some portion of genesis is not open source. And even if they could, they've chosen not to for whatever reasons of their own. It's their software, their decision. Continuous arguing about it isn't going to change that. The dson importer is as close as you're going to get. People have come up with other ways of getting around the importer and have given directions about those methods in various threads. If people aren't satisfied with those methods then that's on them. There is also FBX for those who have Poser game dev.
There is no point in going back and forth on the issue. The only thing that will do is get posts deleted and people banned from this forum, so drop the arguing.
Zev0 posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 12:42 PM
The nightmare scenario for Zev0 is Poser vendors moving en masse to genesis. The only reason Zev0 is making the money at the moment is due to the paucity of DS vendors. Not hard to make money with DS products if you are the only one filling a niche. He is in trouble if the folks that make correction products and morph sets for V4 move into his space. They have a much better reputation, not to mention a longer track history.
Umm Poser vendors moving en masse to Genesis and DS has been happening for a while now? Guess what, it doesn't really affected me. I have actually been encouraging more vendors to develop for Genesis and DS. Hell, I have even been involved with recruiting a few that directly compete with what I do. If I was really scared, I would tell them all to stay away because they would make way more money on other figures lol, and that DS and Genesis is bad for business:) So really, I don't know where you get this nightmare scenario idea from lol. In fact, I think your nightmare scenario is all of them moving over and your poor figures will remain unsupported. Thanks SSbryan, your post actually made my day:) It amazes me sometimes the theories you come up with. Full marks for creativity:)
Khory_D posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 1:05 PM
ssgbryan posted at 12:10PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234702
moriador posted at 9:15AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234656
It's quite possible that a small but robust niche market for Poser compatible content may evolve and thrive. Part of the problem of making money in the market was the sheer enormity of the competition among vendors. If a great many of them leave the Poser content market, those who remain will have a much bigger share of what remains. It might well be far more than they started with. In the end, this may turn out to be exactly what the Poserverse needed.
The nightmare scenario for Zev0 is Poser vendors moving en masse to genesis. The only reason Zev0 is making the money at the moment is due to the paucity of DS vendors. Not hard to make money with DS products if you are the only one filling a niche. He is in trouble if the folks that make correction products and morph sets for V4 move into his space. They have a much better reputation, not to mention a longer track history.
The same can be said for the half dozen vendors that regularly make characters for the golum. They will have to up their game - no more using the same texture maps for every one of their figures.
I suspect the clothing vendors at Daz will exit the market. The quality of the products they make aren't as good as what vendors were selling at Daz a decade ago. Increased competition isn't good for vendor's bottom line.
Actually Zev0 has always had some "competition" as far as his morphs go so new people doing them isn't going to be a change. Nor would poser primary vendors choosing to move to Studio to do morphs for Genesis 3 have any more impact than any fresh face doing it. A poser primary vendor may have a following with poser users but that is not going to translate over to studio as a given. That is true for any product not just Zev0's. Nor is potential competition as "bad" as you might think. Product sales are not nearly as based on "what else there is" as on the product itself and how it is presented to the customer. I'm not worried a bit about Zev0's potential income no matter how many poser primary content creators might deiced to produce for studio instead, and you shouldn't either. He has top drawer products, top drawer presentation, and the best reputation for those products with Studio users.
As a matter of fact all the content providers your trying to harsh on and cast blind aspersions at (for products your not really familiar with I suspect) will be fine. I expect to see some continued shifts in what programs are supported and by whom and where. But, I expect those only to have positive outcomes for all involved for a variety of reasons. I know some people are stuck in a past where there is a limited market and they see any competition as draining away money from them. But that is not true for the Studio market and has not been for ages. Studio is and has been a growth industry for the last few years and that isn't changing any time soon. More high quality content draws more customers and helps expand the market further so it is welcome and a benefit to everyone. I think some "bottom lines" have already increased and that is why we have and will continued to see those shifts. I can see why some of those shifts would be worrisome for some people of course. But I don't think it is those who are currently Studio content providers.
www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators
Male_M3dia posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 1:32 PM
ssgbryan posted at 2:22PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234745
bhoins posted at 10:56AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234717
ssgbryan posted at 10:48AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234708
Your argument that SM should take over the development of 64-bit Python from the developers of Python, just so they could rewrite Daz's code. And it WOULD have to be rewritten. Moving from 32-bit to 64-bit is a hell of a lot more than just pointing at new libraries. Ask Adobe or Microsoft.
You are right on 1 thing - The DSON Importer for Poser is certainly not ideal. Fortunately, we can bypass it. File - Export. Spend 10 - 15 minutes converting those .duf PCF to native Poser .mc6s, .pz2s, .cr2s, etc. If I can figure out how to do it in less than 30 minutes with no documentation from Daz (as usual), so could a vendor.
LOL. Really? I never said Poser needs to rewrite Python. The API could have access other than Python. Even with the current python, there are definite places the current API could be significantly more efficient.
And your export to Cr2 does not produce the same functionality, which is why that method was dropped. But you knew that already.
Yeah, you did; you obviously don't have the skill sets to understand the issues involved. I was involved in some software death marches in my youth, moving from 16-bit to 32-bit. It didn't get any easier when moving from 32-bit to 64-bit. All of that legacy code would have to be tossed. Not to mention everyone else that uses the add-on subsystem (for what it was actually designed for) would have to rewrite their products also.
AFA "same functionality", yeah, I don't have weight mapping along 3 axis, only 1; - so what.
No, seriously, so what.
In the past 4 years, no one has EVER demonstrated the advantages of Daz's weight-mapping system over the one Poser uses. Forgive me if I don't seem all that impressed - Poser users have been able to bend any figure into pretzels for a while now. I can make the Poser 2 Lo-res figures bend just as nicely in Poser as genesis does in DS. (raise subdivision to 3, add and adjust weight mapping if you are feeling ambitious - no cost to me).
You guys just don't get it. The figure fragmentation in the Poserverse has been a long time coming (and overdue in my opinion). I am glad I have choices other than V4. Poser gives me better tools than DS; and at the end of the day, figures are just another tool.
The problem you or Zev0 or Male3dia can't seem to grasp is that not everyone aspires to be a 3rd rate Elvgren wannabe. Actually, you can't really do that - Pin up art from that time frame had dresses that went below the knee - that has been, shall we say, problematic for genesis - not having access to something like the cloth room.
Once you move outside of the pinup niche, the genesis content is quite limited, as are the alleged "advantages" in the figures ability to bend over legacy figures (which I can fix in Poser - without dropping three or four hundred dollars and moving back to the Poser 4 era AFA software features).
The biggest issue with the genesis lineup isn't the technology - it is the very limited vision of that handful of vendors that create for it. Here is a quick example - right now over on Fastgrab there are 2 male products by the same vendor, Jericho for M4 and Apollo for M6. Looking at the promo's, the only difference appears to be the chest hair.
Now, why should I buy Apollo? I don't mind adding to my collection of g2m figures, but why spend $5.39 (70% off) for chest hair (that won't actually be seen - my characters tend to keep their clothes on.) Big picture, this is the issue - with only a couple of exceptions (Male3dia being the main one), Daz vendors are just rehashing what has come before - the same euro-trash early 20-somethings Poser vendors have been inflicting on us for the past decade. Sturgeon's Law in full effect. Not a good thing for a vendor, in my opinion.
That is the advantage of using many figures which Poser user can do, DS users can't. - the goals of the figure makers are different, the meshes are different, the morphs are different, the vendors making stuff for them are different. My stuff doesn't look like everyone else's.
Here is another example. In my fan-fic, I need a multitude of characters - I can use any figure released in the past decade, with the exception of that fat chick Daz released.
How many black males are available in the genesis lineup? My options are several orders of magnitude larger than someone limited to genesis. I can use a genesis 1 or 2 character, I can use an Apollo Maximus character, I can use M1, 2, 3 or 4, I can use P6 James, I can use G2 Simon, or James, or Kelvin, I can use Dusk, or Rikishi. In my case, I have over 100 - how many does genesis have? Not a hundred, not even close.
If I need an Asian chick - in genesis I have about a dozen or so choices (blue eyed Asian are popular) - and only a couple come with black eyes. Wanna guess how many choices I have using Poser? Again, well over 100.
If I need a Caucasian chick - I have about 700 choices. What choices do genesis users have?
Caucasian characters sell, ethnics don't. The market made that abundantly clear. If you have an issue with that, you have to take it up with the paying customers rather than vendors. I made very few ethnic characters because they keep bottoming out in sales. I know you want to give your opinion, but since you don't sell or even make anything, your comments come off as uninformed at best and do nothing but stir a pot that really doesn't need to be stirred. If anyone bothers to listen to what you say, they really deserve the sales they don't get.
And please stop bringing my name into these convos. If your arguments are so weak you need to name call, you probably just shouldn't post.
Khory_D posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 1:34 PM
" You guys just don't get it. The figure fragmentation in the Poserverse has been a long time coming (and overdue in my opinion). I am glad I have choices other than V4. Poser gives me better tools than DS; and at the end of the day, figures are just another tool."
And I don't get what that has to do with anything. Is it a dig at Studio? It can use all those and genesis 3. And the tools is as always a matter of personal taste just like the user interface thing is a matter of taste.
"Once you move outside of the pinup niche, the genesis content is quite limited, as are the alleged "advantages" in the figures ability to bend over legacy figures (which I can fix in Poser - without dropping three or four hundred dollars and moving back to the Poser 4 era AFA software features)."
Aside from using all the old clothes from all those old figures of course...so the limit is to what you own more than what the figures can use. And I have no clue what you think you should spend 3 or 4 hundred dollars on unless your talking about to use something in poser...Maybe you would like to elaborate on what it is was so necessary and pricey and un-owned by so many of us? It must be something that no one has ever created for poser or else your thinking would be flawed.
"The biggest issue with the genesis lineup isn't the technology - it is the very limited vision of that handful of vendors that create for it. Here is a quick example - right now over on Fastgrab there are 2 male products by the same vendor, Jericho for M4 and Apollo for M6. Looking at the promo's, the only difference appears to be the chest hair."
Urm.. except for the whole use M4 textures on genesis and the ability to transfer any morphs from him which then gives you pretty much as much potential with genesis 1 and 2 as M4 plus anything created uniquely for him along with the addition of HD on top of those things. So M6 has the flexibility of anything M4, M5, and M6.
" Daz vendors are just rehashing what has come before - the same euro-trash early 20-somethings Poser vendors have been inflicting on us for the past decade. Sturgeon's Law in full effect. Not a good thing for a vendor, in my opinion."
Well if you can get some Americans, or south Americans, or Africans, or other non "euro-trash" persons to take all their clothes off and have scores of pictures taken of their entire body, including the naughty bits close up, for very little money please feel free to start selling them like hotcakes. The whole span of the 3d content providers will be thrilled to purchase these new and different resources. Until then everyone is stuck with the limited selections available.
That is the advantage of using many figures which Poser user can do, DS users can't. - the goals of the figure makers are different, the meshes are different, the morphs are different, the vendors making stuff for them are different. My stuff doesn't look like everyone else's. "
Why can't they? As far as I know Studio can still use ever one of those old figures that poser can.
"In my fan-fic, I need a multitude of characters - I can use any figure released in the past decade, with the exception of that fat chick Daz released."
Studio can still use all of those and it seems also some other character I am unaware of that is heavy set.
"How many black males are available in the genesis lineup? My options are several orders of magnitude larger than someone limited to genesis. I can use a genesis 1 or 2 character, I can use an Apollo Maximus character, I can use M1, 2, 3 or 4, I can use P6 James, I can use G2 Simon, or James, or Kelvin, I can use Dusk, or Rikishi. In my case, I have over 100 - how many does genesis have? Not a hundred, not even close.
If I need an Asian chick - in genesis I have about a dozen or so choices (blue eyed Asian are popular) - and only a couple come with black eyes. Wanna guess how many choices I have using Poser? Again, well over 100.
If I need a Caucasian chick - I have about 700 choices. What choices do genesis users have?"
If they are using genesis 1 or 2 they can use the skins from the v4/m4 line (actually with additional products they can go back even further texture wise) as well as the characters from their own generation and if it is Genesis 2 then the genesis one line as well. There are a few characters that use different UV's but that is not true of the majority. So most users would have as many DAZ based choices as you do. Plus they still have the use of any of the other figures created for poser excluding the poser weight mapped ones. I have to say I'm starting to wonder if you grasp how any of this works..
www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators
ssgbryan posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 4:19 PM
Well, Khory_D, I would say the same of you. The workflow process in Poser has fundamentally changed over the past few versions - not that most vendors would be aware of this - most are unwilling to let go of Poser 6 and it's way of doing things. Many are working under the default assumption that everyone MUST work with a Daz figure. That isn't actually the case. Furthermore, vendors today have no clue as to what figures their clothing is going onto - I have dozens of outfits for V4 that have never been worn by V4, but have been worn by Dawn, or Olivia or Mariko or Roxy or Anastasia - get the point? Nor do vendors know if a V4 character was bought for the sole purpose of harvesting the skin textures for use on other figures - I do that all the time.
Poser has changed, even if vendors haven't - mainly due to SM listening to the customers. The reason we have the fitting room is due to vendor intransigence about making content for any figure NOT named V4. There are numerous other examples. The Copy Morphs From command, for example, means that vendors needn't bother with PBMs in clothing anymore. It would certainly save me the time of stripping them out of every single piece of clothing I own. And don't get me started on material files.
Figure fragmentation is what the thread was originally about. (Time to leave V4). As a Poser user, the issue is irrelevant. I can pull in both Poser compatible figures and the 1st 2 generations of genesis figures. Granted, I can't use the new fat chick, but I can live without her. BTW, just what is the difference between V7, Arabella 7, and Karen 7 - the promo's don't show me why I should buy it. And Josie 7 doesn't' seem to do anything that Josie 6 couldn't do, other than be a drain on my wallet.
DS doesn't support capsule rigging or Poser's weight mapping (or any Poser 5 or later feature other than the ability to read .mc6 files), so I am not real sure how to get newer SM figures working DS. If there is a way to do it, I certainly wouldn't mind learning. I like my Asian characters to have black eyes as opposed to blue ones and be short, so just how do YOU get Miki 3 or 4 working in DS? Do tell.
Whether or not a product is old doesn't prevent it's use - Which would you find more useful? - A new male suit with no movement morphs and only a couple of texture sets, or an old suit with many movement morphs and many texture sets. As an example, IMO, the Casablanca suit for M3 was the best suit ever made for Poser figures, as was the clothing made by Utilize for M3 (still being sold at Daz). Which is why all of my male figures are wearing them. Does Autofit work with Gen3 clothing? I haven't been successful, but it would not surprise me the least if I was doing something wrong - it isn't like there is a usable manual to go with DS.
Nothing made for genesis comes even close to those "old" products. And those "old" products have texture templates - I have no idea where Daz is currently hiding those nowadays, I just know that before genesis rolled out the door, they were together with the clothing product, so the customer could download them in 1 go.
AFA "dig on studio" - its more like a dig on Daz's software "development" process such as it is and what there is of it. I am one of the many customers Daz cheated out of $150 out of with Cararra 6 upgrade fiasco and I have neither forgotten nor forgiven Daz for refusing to refund my money once they admitted that they lied to all of us about getting it to work in OSX. Or the fact that my copy of Hexagon wouldn't run in OSX for 4 years.
DS lacks features of Poser 5, never mind newer versions. The easiest example is the cloth room, but it isn't the only one - just the one I use the most - closely followed by the Fitting Room - the ability to easily update rigging (rigging got a whole lot easier in 2014), adding subdivision and weight mapping to legacy figures leverages the products I already own.
So tell me, using my example above - how would YOU get Miki 3 (capsule rigging) or Miki 4 (Poser Weight Mapped) (or a legacy rigged figure like Eroko - when she isn't tied up) dressed in a genesis 2 outfit? I haven't been able to figure out how to do it, and needless to say, there is nothing in the "document center" that explains how to do this. That is kinda important for what I do - I need all of my Star Trek characters in the same uniform (V4 Courageous & M4 Valiant is what I standardized on - that may change if I can figure out how to get some genesis 2 clothing working reliably in Poser - I will figure it out - there can only be so many wrong ways to do it.)
AFA that 3 to 4 hundred dollars - you can start with Slosh's UV products and then get a full collection of Dimension3D's GenX2 products - that is right at 185 right there, now add in DraagonStorms texture Batch Conversion products. If there is a cheaper way to do it, I wouldn't mind seeing some documentation on it. (There's that pesky word again.) I probably did spend too much money on add-ons, but I couldn't get a handle on what I needed and what I didn't.
AFA moving textures - yeah, I already own all of those products (TC1 & 2 and TT, and I work them like a rented mule). But that doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, a Daz character is pretty easy to pick out with it's freak show proportions (Height wise the V series make up less than 5% of the population - didn't help that they killed their realistically sized figures). That was the whole reason I started migrating from Daz figures to SM figures. The goals for the products are different. SM figures are realistically sized and realistically proportioned figures - they are not runway models, nor were they ever designed to be. Because my fictional worlds are full of people of all sizes, that becomes an issue.
Speaking of textures - where to get a wider variety of them? The pron industry maybe?
Zev0 posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 5:01 PM
a Daz character is pretty easy to pick out with it's freak show proportions (Height wise the V series make up less than 5% of the population - didn't help that they killed their realistically sized figures). That was the whole reason I started migrating from Daz figures to SM figures. The goals for the products are different. SM figures are realistically sized and realistically proportioned figures - they are not runway models, nor were they ever designed to be. Because my fictional worlds are full of people of all sizes, that becomes an issue.
Umm sorry I disagree. With my Shape Shift product and the body and head morph packages available you can get realistic proportions with more flexibility on Genesis than any of your figures can. So that is a load of BS saying Daz figures are ONLY non realistically proportioned. I can load up a photo of a realistically proportioned figure and match the shape perfectly just by using the morphs without adjusting scale. Stop looking at figures at Default state to use as an argument. Figures can be changed depending on how flexible they can be. You do know figures do not have to be used at default state right? Then again, that is probably the only shape options you have on your other figures, hense why you chop and change because they can't be anything else other than what they are because they lack the flexibility or support to do so.
RorrKonn posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 6:24 PM
false1 posted at 7:22PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234695
RorrKonn posted at 10:23AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234663
you all's fighting would save me a lot of time if ya just said I hate you with one sentence that way I wouldn't half to read a book to get caught up on the thread.
Funny!
Good thing they listened ;)
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
ssgbryan posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 8:17 PM
Zev0 posted at 5:20PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234797
a Daz character is pretty easy to pick out with it's freak show proportions (Height wise the V series make up less than 5% of the population - didn't help that they killed their realistically sized figures). That was the whole reason I started migrating from Daz figures to SM figures. The goals for the products are different. SM figures are realistically sized and realistically proportioned figures - they are not runway models, nor were they ever designed to be. Because my fictional worlds are full of people of all sizes, that becomes an issue.
Umm sorry I disagree. With my Shape Shift product and the body and head morph packages available you can get realistic proportions with more flexibility on Genesis than any of your figures can. So that is a load of BS saying Daz figures are ONLY non realistically proportioned. I can load up a photo of a realistically proportioned figure and match the shape perfectly just by using the morphs without adjusting scale. Stop looking at figures at Default state to use as an argument. Figures can be changed depending on how flexible they can be. You do know figures do not have to be used at default state right? Then again, that is probably the only shape options you have on your other figures, hense why you chop and change because they can't be anything else other than what they are because they lack the flexibility or support to do so.
Of course you disagree, you are a DS vendor trying to sell something. My goal in art isn't increasing your bottom line, it is getting the stories in my head on the screen.
There are more morph packs for SM's G2 Sydney series than are available for genesis. Hell, Antonia Polygon has almost as many morph packs as genesis. I have a lot of genesis characters and for the most part, they aren't any more distinctive than any other figure available. There are more characters available for the the SM G2 line than there are for the Daz G2 line. And you truly have no idea how amusing I find that, after listening to the whole There is no content for Sydney during it's life-cycle. It's not just them - Dawn has about as many characters made for her than were made for g2f. I know I own over 50 and I don't own all of them.
The easiest way to get a differing size DAZ figure isn't buying your product - it is using the M4-K4 mixer script (free, btw). It works on both Daz Gen4 figures, Gen3 figures and Gen2 figures. I now have the following mixes to as start points: V4-K4, M4-K4, V3-Sp3, V3-A3, V3-L3, Sp3-L3, Sp3-A3, M3-D3, M3-H3, M3-L3, V2-MilGirl, M2-MilBoy. And yes, I use them all. Which is the easiest way of dealing with the height issue - it is much easier to adjust a figure by an inch or two either way with 1 dial than trying to shrink a 5'10" figure down to 5'2".
So, I already have a bit more flexibility than genesis has; animatable joint centers didn't start with genesis - I had them a decade ago with Apollo Maximus.
And none of you have addressed the clothing issue. All the alleged bending improvements in the world won't fix the sad state of genesis clothing.
Philosophically, I don't belong to the One Size Fits All school - I belong to the Right Tool For The Right Job school. If I need a fat man, I am reaching for Rikishi, because the base mesh is that of a fat man. It works better than bulking up a figure IMO - a lot less work on my end, than trying to shoe horn an idea into a mesh. I find it easier both in time and MY bottom line.
That is important for what I do. I don't do single figure still images - I do graphic novels - lots of characters - If I am not careful, it would look like a David Weber novel - cast of thousands, all in meetings that never end. I can't do this with genesis when over 95% of the genesis characters are Caucasian. Yeah, that number is accurate - I counted. Most of the genesis characters that I buy that weren't part of a bundle (at 72% off) are non-Caucasian & non-Asian. As many different figures and characters I own, I still don't have enough non-Caucasians.
Now, looking back at genesis - how many genesis 3 females are non-Caucasian? Oh, none of them? Imagine that.
Now, look at how this translates into my art. Start with the Star Trek: TOS bridge. 13 positions when at general quarters. I also need more than 1 shift - because when at general quarters, there will be another 13 people on the Emergency Bridge and another 5 in Aux Control - That is 31 characters. Still have Engineering, Sick Bay, etc. Each ship in the story arc needs anywhere from 25 - 75 characters reoccurring characters. And I have more than 1 ship. Star Fleet doctrine is 90% 1 race per ship & the rest are aliens. 1 ship, the Iron Duke is going to be 90% black humans (If I can get enough of them). Which is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable; which is part of art. I'd like my ships to match the the current Earth racial break outs. I can't do this with genesis - there simply aren't enough non-Caucasian skin textures for it, even if using M4/V4 skin textures. I am still short handed with Indian characters and South Asian characters - I buy them, regardless of what base mesh they start with, because there is only 1 figure I can't use, and I don't see DS vendors making doing much in the way of non-Caucasians.
ssgbryan posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 8:38 PM
bhoins posted at 7:17PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234805
ssgbryan posted at 5:20PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - [#4234708]
Request #196181 Wrong version of INJectionPoseBuilder
Harry Bryan Jun 29, 17:27
The Mac installer of INJectionPoseBuilder installs the windows version of the product. I am sure there is a reason how this got past QA - I suspect it is because QA doesn't.
Please fix this.
Thankyou.
Last response from Topher Spencer:
HI Harry The Q/A team has been notified. I will update you when I hear anything more. Have a good day.August 26, 2015, 10:51
Note the dates.
You got an answer from Customer service within hours of your post. And no I was not embarrassed by you, but you did help me illustrate a point. Thank you for that.
Do you now believe that if someone asks Daz 3D about the DSON format and licensing they will get a different answer from what I gave?
No - What it tells me is that your QA manager is incompetent. I shouldn't have to air Daz's dirty laundry for all to see to get someone at Daz to do their damned job. There was no intention to address the issue - Topher couldn't even be bothered to ask "QA" an ETA on the product - which I asked him to do 2 months ago.
I read the note - The product hasn't worked in OSX for 8 years (and the last 6 versions of OSX) and no one at Daz noticed. I am tired of being told by Daz employees that it is MY job to do the QA manager's job - it isn't the first time it has happened.
The last time I had a issue in tech support I had to PM the CTO of the company (He made the mistake of once posting in the forums over at Daz.) Within 24 hours, tech support was swearing up and down that out of the 300+ bugs labeled crash immediate in OSX that he picked mine to fix - after in languished in the que unacknowledged for over 6 MONTHS. How the *&^% they missed that they compiled the OSX version of DS 4.0 against the wrong set of Qt libraries is beyond me.
How many actions do you having sitting unresolved at over 90 days? I know the QA manager doesn't know - and their boss isn't even smart enough to know to look.
I was telling Daz that a decade ago that they didn't have a competent operations manager - I have run larger organizations than Daz & I would have fired everyone working there by now. No one on the management side of the house knows what they are doing.
Zev0 posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 9:05 PM
Philosophically, I don't belong to the One Size Fits All school - I belong to the Right Tool For The Right Job school. If I need a fat man, I am reaching for Rikishi, because the base mesh is that of a fat man. It works better than bulking up a figure IMO - a lot less work on my end, than trying to shoe horn an idea into a mesh. I find it easier both in time and MY bottom line.
Silly Philosophically and not practical. You belong to the Fool School. Prove to me how because it is a bulked up figure by default that it is better than a figure that can be bulked up? Wait, sorry excuse me while I stop laughing for a minute......So, you're telling me that just because Rikishi is bulked up by default he looks better than any other figure that can be bulked up? Lol, ok now I have heard it all. What if you want to change Rikishi's face appearance to other than asian? Or tweak his body shape? Oh and to get Rikishi to use other skins? Ah yes, have to convert everything for him... But it is never too much work when it is a non Daz figure:)
DreaminGirl posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 9:15 PM
Zev0.. why does it bother you so much that some people like to use more than one figure?
Zev0 posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 9:17 PM
I have no problem with people using one figure. It is the reasoning given behind it that makes no sense as to why they are using it eg SSbryans logic, and the comparison to say that because it is that way by default that it is superior, which is a load of nonsense.
DreaminGirl posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 9:33 PM
How is it nonsense to point out unresolved issues?
Edit: This thread is now getting so far off topic I'll just leave it now, before Shane slaps us all :3
Male_M3dia posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 9:35 PM
DreaminGirl posted at 10:34PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234837
How is it nonsense to point out unresolved issues?
It was resolved because Ssybryan downloaded the windows zip instead of the mac zip and complained. There was no issue.
Inspired_Art posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 10:36 PM
HiveWireChris posted at 10:35PM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4229741
I dip in here from time to time, especially when some one forwards me a link to check out. Don't usually post because I don't want to come off as selling my work, or drawing negative attention. However, I would like to share my point of view for the future of Poser and DS content. DAZ created and owns the DSON format. DAZ has widened the chasm that exists between them and the "mother ship". DSON is still a weak and anemic way to get DAZ content into Poser and working well. G3 is made for Studio only really. Any DAZ figure going forward will not be made for Poser period! The HiveWire figure line up that is created in house, is made natively for BOTH Poser and DS. We currently create the only "core figures" that are made for both. Our aim is to create thee content bridge to both software programs. V4 is only alive because folks here continue to create supporting content for her. Advancements for V4 from DAZ are long gone, hence G3. That is their advancement.
HiveWire continues development on Dawn, and Dusk, and our Baby Luna, and even our Horse. When a Dawn 2 is developed (which won't be for quite a while) we will make sure that existing UVs, and maps, and morphs and characters that are currently available for Dawn SE will still work for Dawn 2. Unlike others that make their supportive artist audience and customers abandon their work to support yet another new figure line up that changes quickly, making folks scramble to support the latest release figures. HiveWire is here for you for the long haul. We will continue to develop the best quality that we can, and make improvements on our figures so you can support them going forward. The kind folks here that run Rendo have asked for our latest Dawn and Dusk because more artists are supporting them and submitting content, so Rendo wanted our latest to test against. We've been more then happy to respond in the positive and provide our Dawn and Dusk for testers here.
If you want to look at the future core figure content that will continue to support Poser and Studio, look to HiveWire. Give us input for improvements that you need to see, and we'll do our best to make them so you as an artist and customer have a creative team that listens to you, and will grow with you.
The only thing that keeps me away from Hive3D are the prices. Seems that many of the former DAZ3D content artists that have migrated over to Hive3D have increased their prices....
Eddy
Khory_D posted Thu, 22 October 2015 at 11:43 PM
Well, Khory_D, I would say the same of you. The workflow process in Poser has fundamentally changed over the past few versions - not that most vendors would be aware of this - most are unwilling to let go of Poser 6 and it's way of doing things. Many are working under the default assumption that everyone MUST work with a Daz figure. That isn't actually the case. Furthermore, vendors today have no clue as to what figures their clothing is going onto - I have dozens of outfits for V4 that have never been worn by V4, but have been worn by Dawn, or Olivia or Mariko or Roxy or Anastasia - get the point? Nor do vendors know if a V4 character was bought for the sole purpose of harvesting the skin textures for use on other figures - I do that all the time.
Poser has changed, even if vendors haven't - mainly due to SM listening to the customers. The reason we have the fitting room is due to vendor intransigence about making content for any figure NOT named V4. There are numerous other examples. The Copy Morphs From command, for example, means that vendors needn't bother with PBMs in clothing anymore. It would certainly save me the time of stripping them out of every single piece of clothing I own. And don't get me started on material files.
There is a rather valid reason why they are "unwilling to let go of poser 6" tech. It is because the poser user base is so fractured due to the ownership of a wide variety of versions and the size of the consumer base for those products that they need to support the least common denominator. Nor do they really care what final figure a product is used on. They sell a product for V4 and it is a V4 sale for them. What you do with it in the privacy of your own computer is not of interest to them overall. A beautiful render with the product used as sold is always a plus but not common enough to really be a big point for the vendors.
Figure fragmentation is what the thread was originally about. (Time to leave V4). As a Poser user, the issue is irrelevant. I can pull in both Poser compatible figures and the 1st 2 generations of genesis figures. Granted, I can't use the new fat chick, but I can live without her. BTW, just what is the difference between V7, Arabella 7, and Karen 7 - the promo's don't show me why I should buy it. And Josie 7 doesn't' seem to do anything that Josie 6 couldn't do, other than be a drain on my wallet.
As far as figure fragmentation happening.. Obviously from the vendor perspective they have two choices. One is to stick with the customer base that they have catered to and hope that the sales volume holds. You yourself have made the case that they don't need to support any figure other than v4 since people like yourself are using products on other characters. That way they can at least hope to maintain a similar income to what they are seeing today. The other option is to branch out into the growing Genesis market. That is evidenced by the increased support and continued support by vendors in this market place. In other words they see the income there that they need to make and so they continue on with those products. It boils down to continuing to support the generation 4 figures and hope that they maintain an income or move to the newer generations and increase income with that.
Of course there are some who are going to say "oh but the next big Daz killer is just on the horizon". It is possible that for the first time SM will hit it out of the park with a new and included as part of poser figure that will answer all the poser users prayers. Then all they have to do is get every poser user to upgrade to the newest version of poser so that they can have a broad enough market to make support for that figure viable for content providers. And then they have to hope that that market is as large as the current market for genesis products so that this new figure will be able to take a dominant stand in this market place. Should that actually happen I doubt it would be a Daz killer because unlike so many other players in this game Daz tends to be very pragmatic. If there really were a compelling figure that had the sales volume potential of genesis I suspect that you would see products in the Daz market place for it. No its never happened before, but then there has never been a compelling figure that had the base customer support to make that an appealing option for the Daz PA's. I don't actually expect that to happen of course because the odds of any character achieving the necessary numbers so that genesis content providers to move over long term are pretty low.
DS doesn't support capsule rigging or Poser's weight mapping (or any Poser 5 or later feature other than the ability to read .mc6 files), so I am not real sure how to get newer SM figures working DS. If there is a way to do it, I certainly wouldn't mind learning. I like my Asian characters to have black eyes as opposed to blue ones and be short, so just how do YOU get Miki 3 or 4 working in DS? Do tell.
Laughter.. Seriously you think I would pay for Miki anything? Are you under the impression that the only way to get an Asian character is with her? Because there are maybe a thousand other ways to whip up a short Asian woman with black eyes.
Whether or not a product is old doesn't prevent it's use - Which would you find more useful? - A new male suit with no movement morphs and only a couple of texture sets, or an old suit with many movement morphs and many texture sets. As an example, IMO, the Casablanca suit for M3 was the best suit ever made for Poser figures, as was the clothing made by Utilize for M3 (still being sold at Daz). Which is why all of my male figures are wearing them. Does Autofit work with Gen3 clothing? I haven't been successful, but it would not surprise me the least if I was doing something wrong - it isn't like there is a usable manual to go with DS.
Yes it works with gen3 clothing. Those are the suits I would use on Genesis. I've never found it difficult enough to require a manual though.
Nothing made for genesis comes even close to those "old" products. And those "old" products have texture templates - I have no idea where Daz is currently hiding those nowadays, I just know that before genesis rolled out the door, they were together with the clothing product, so the customer could download them in 1 go.
Then by all means use the old products if you want. I use them and everyone else I know falls back on them at times. I think though that sales numbers indicate your quite wrong about the newer products sold here and at other brokerages.
As far as templates for Daz products, I'm guessing you have not looked in your account/product library at the products. The templates are all downloadable there.
AFA "dig on studio" - its more like a dig on Daz's software "development" process such as it is and what there is of it. I am one of the many customers Daz cheated out of $150 out of with Cararra 6 upgrade fiasco and I have neither forgotten nor forgiven Daz for refusing to refund my money once they admitted that they lied to all of us about getting it to work in OSX. Or the fact that my copy of Hexagon wouldn't run in OSX for 4 years.
A shame about Hex. It is still my go to. When exactly was this Cararra 6 fiasco? Sometime around 2007 right? You are aware that the people who ran the company then are no longer with it any more and have not been for several years right? In fact it is a much different company since around 2011/2012. If you have a gripe that goes that far back your need to gripe against a whole different brokerage now.. or a comicon.
DS lacks features of Poser 5, never mind newer versions. The easiest example is the cloth room, but it isn't the only one - just the one I use the most - closely followed by the Fitting Room - the ability to easily update rigging (rigging got a whole lot easier in 2014), adding subdivision and weight mapping to legacy figures leverages the products I already own.
Much of what Studio "lacks" are things most users never bothered with anyway. I'm not sure why there needs to be a special "room" for fitting when it can be better integrated and that integration is hardly a lack. And I am sure your fully aware that Studio has done subdivision and weight mapping for years so there's that. Just as there are a few bits and bobs Poser has that Studio does not there are things missing from Poser that Studio does do. Different strokes for different folks really. I doubt those things are the real driving force as far as software choice goes much less character choice.
So tell me, using my example above - how would YOU get Miki 3 (capsule rigging) or Miki 4 (Poser Weight Mapped) (or a legacy rigged figure like Eroko - when she isn't tied up) dressed in a genesis 2 outfit? I haven't been able to figure out how to do it, and needless to say, there is nothing in the "document center" that explains how to do this. That is kinda important for what I do - I need all of my Star Trek characters in the same uniform (V4 Courageous & M4 Valiant is what I standardized on - that may change if I can figure out how to get some genesis 2 clothing working reliably in Poser - I will figure it out - there can only be so many wrong ways to do it.)
Well I wouldn't be dealing with Miki as I never wanted her but I could certainly use courageous and valiant on any of my genesis 1,2, or 3 characters. And um..wouldn't you just take which ever figure you wanted to use them on into the fit room and work it out there? I would assume that it replaces what auto fit does right?
AFA that 3 to 4 hundred dollars - you can start with Slosh's UV products and then get a full collection of Dimension3D's GenX2 products - that is right at 185 right there, now add in DraagonStorms texture Batch Conversion products. If there is a cheaper way to do it, I wouldn't mind seeing some documentation on it. (There's that pesky word again.) I probably did spend too much money on add-ons, but I couldn't get a handle on what I needed and what I didn't.
You don't actually have to buy those products. I've never bought GenX1 or 2 because I don't need to carry over exact morphs from one generation to the next. If I wanted to avail myself of exact copies of the thousands of available generation 4 morphs it would be money well spent or if I had a character in say a comic book that I needed to look identical it would be worth it. I'm just never needed that sort of exactness myself.
Sloshes products are a wonder if you have heavily invested in say Hero or Aiko etc, or if you just can't let go of some of those old skins from 10 years ago. It makes more available for expansion without question and I know that many people have taken advantage of that that had huge back stocks of characters from the past. For people heavily invested in previous generations it is actually a big money saver.
DraggonStorms batch converter is a wonderful time saver if you have scores of characters your moving over. But if your doing one or two its not really that complex to do if you have a general understanding of surfaces. Again it is money well spent if you have an extensive library of gen 4 products.
All three were product lines were huge sellers. Not because they were required but because they were time savers or pulled things out of the way back that people wanted to be able to continue to use. It was however choice based and not a requirement by any stretch of the imagination. They saved time or money and clearly many people found that more than worth the cost of the products.
AFA moving textures - yeah, I already own all of those products (TC1 & 2 and TT, and I work them like a rented mule). But that doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, a Daz character is pretty easy to pick out with it's freak show proportions (Height wise the V series make up less than 5% of the population - didn't help that they killed their realistically sized figures). That was the whole reason I started migrating from Daz figures to SM figures. The goals for the products are different. SM figures are realistically sized and realistically proportioned figures - they are not runway models, nor were they ever designed to be. Because my fictional worlds are full of people of all sizes, that becomes an issue.
Yes Victoria's are tall girls.. and Aiko's, and the younger characters and Stephanies tend to be short. So a few out of dozens are model tall. Which actually does not make her freakishly tall as models are not the tallest women nor are they freaks. It isn't as if she is pro bball tall, or even tall club tall. And I will let you in on a secret. Victoria's are scalable just like every other shape.. that means that can be as short or tall as you want in the end. And by the way, in my not so fictional world women are allowed to be tall and impressive. Tall women are not in fact "freaks".
Speaking of textures - where to get a wider variety of them? The pron industry maybe?
Only if you can convince them to do detailed photographs of the whole body under ideal lighting systems and forgo the cash that they would see from the sales of real porn. I seriously doubt the world of porn is going to step up and take an income cut just so we can have more texture resources.
www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators
moriador posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 1:15 AM
I do agree with one thing ssgbryan bring ups: If all your characters are dial-spins, genesis 1/2 or generation3/4 -- they will look too similar. My hubby knows exactly nothing about Poser or Daz, except that I use it, but when I questioned him about which renders seemed to be using different base figures, he was pretty much on the money with his guesses when the characters were based on commonly used morph packs. The facial morphs are frequently just a tad too subtle, even at full strength.
However, as soon as you start mixing and matching some morphs by vendors who sculpt their own -- Capses, Joe Quick, and Cris Palomino come to mind, among others (Tempesta does some very original work, too as well as the team at RDNA), the appearance of the characters begins to look more and more distinct. Since I figured this out, I've been able to get as much distinct variety as I need with just V4 or genesis. Granted, I'm not illustrating a story with hundreds and hundreds of characters. But in over ten years, I haven't yet put the same character in more than one full sized and print ready render.
When it comes to variety for characters, I find hair to be the most limiting factor (and the lack of convincing facial hair in Poser). But perhaps that's just me. :)
Btw, Joe Quick's morph packs for Generation 4 Daz peeps are now free on ShareCG. I recommend them heartily.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
RorrKonn posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 1:37 AM
I never hear anything about RDNA My Michelle. why ? and now there's a Steve also.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
chaecuna posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 3:37 AM
All this discussion is irrelevant: that is relevant is that vendors throughout the community are massively and increasingly offering Studio only content. Since they keep doing so, it is not a question of just testing the market but a sustained users preferences shift. That some prominent vendors have officially dropped Poser is just the icing on the cake.
moriador posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 12:06 PM
chaecuna posted at 10:03AM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234862
All this discussion is irrelevant: that is relevant is that vendors throughout the community are massively and increasingly offering Studio only content. Since they keep doing so, it is not a question of just testing the market but a sustained users preferences shift. That some prominent vendors have officially dropped Poser is just the icing on the cake.
Well, that's the question -- in a nutshell. Is it in fact a "sustained users preference shift"? I think it probably is. But that doesn't mean that the loss of those customers is necessarily a huge hit to SM's bottom line, particularly if they were in the habit of upgrading their software once every ten years.
Again, possibly not a big problem for SM. But a big issue for Poser content vendors -- at least until the market stabilizes. And it will be some time before that happens.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
ssgbryan posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 12:26 PM
RorrKonn posted at 9:26AM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234860
I never hear anything about RDNA My Michelle. why ? and now there's a Steve also.
Because RDNA caters to slightly more proficient Poser/DS users? Not to mention being a bit more "edgy" in their content?
I don't know - I use Michelle. I have 10 characters made for her. I use Blackhearted's Michelle Redux, as well as Kim as reoccurring characters.
I have Steve, but I haven't installed him yet - His gens is modeled in the base mesh which is going to be a problem in the Fitting Room. Hopefully my solution for Apollo Max will work (shrink the gens to 1% while in the fitting room).
adzan posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 2:53 PM
ssgbryan posted at 2:49PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234917
RorrKonn posted at 9:26AM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234860
I never hear anything about RDNA My Michelle. why ? and now there's a Steve also.
Because RDNA caters to slightly more proficient Poser/DS users? Not to mention being a bit more "edgy" in their content?
I don't know - I use Michelle. I have 10 characters made for her. I use Blackhearted's Michelle Redux, as well as Kim as reoccurring characters.
I have Steve, but I haven't installed him yet - His gens is modeled in the base mesh which is going to be a problem in the Fitting Room. Hopefully my solution for Apollo Max will work (shrink the gens to 1% while in the fitting room).
The body and genitals are separate meshes saved as one object. Move the genitals and the hip mesh is sealed. So you could shrink into the body or create a new figure minus genitals for fitting clothing. hope the info is helpful
shante posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 2:59 PM
EldritchCellar posted at 2:01PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4232265
Betcha Dinoraul makes pretty decent coin with his Poser figures, fitting room not required, dson not required. Hell they even work in star trek renders with Poser 4 workflow. Lol. Artists like him probably sit back and laugh at the commentary of these ping pong matches. Strictly inna box, for all concerned players. Like horses chasing a carrot on a stick.
DinoRaul has no problem with this kind of issue because he niched out his product to NOT rely on Poser/DS FIGURES at all. Trees, animals, dinosaurs, landscapes and creatures that can work in most environments as STAND ALONEs. But can they? I am not sure if all his offerings are compatible with D/S. Does anyone here know for sure? I have a few of his figures for Poser and they are wonderful. I think he has migrated to DAZ and is offering a few items there but not sure for which environment they are for. One of the problems I am having is accepting that the vendors are creating really NICE looking stuff for D/S Genesis figures they did not also offer for Poser users. I am not talking about the GENESIS figures as much as but additional support stuff like sets, environments, tools accessories and hair products. For example I just saw a product at DAZ called something like 2 Creeks or 2 Streams. Great little nature set which I just can't get enough of because there are so damn few out there that are really nice. So when I see one I gotta have it. When I see there is no option for Poser....AT ALL!.... I get frustrated. Not as if anyone else is offering similar REALLY NICE similar options for Poser users ANYMORE, right? So, my question is, as a "Don't know sheitz about modeling myself" kinda person, what would it take for a vendor of similar products that need absolutely NO connection with the complex issues of blend zones and mesh configurations and all that necessary knowledge in making product for HUMANOID/ANIMAL figures, to also in the process of creating a set of said kind to ALSO offer a version that works natively in Poser?
THE DSON sheitz sucks creepy dung bucket. I just spent three days getting someone at DAZ to walk me through the whole long dragged out, complex process of converting a DAZ hair product sold as a product I could use that DSON thing to work in Poser, that i purchased last year and only recently find out I can't. I was pissed we could not get anything to work. I got my apology from tech suppor/sales but asking if i could get credit for the product was denied. I am stuck with a product I purchased in good faith believing they had gotten their sheitz together on this whole DSON conversion thing when a year later i see it is NOT the case. I can see not wanting to refund or credit the price of the product if i was just NOT happy with it for any other reason. But not happy with the fact I CAN NOT CONVERT it as promised because their conversion product, ONLY AVAILABLE THERE, doesn't work just blows my mind. It shouldn't matter if is 30 days or a year later, It was purchased in good faith based on a promotional promise in writing on their product page which does not hold p to practice.
I can see if the only reason I go to DAZ is to complain in the forums or to get all their free stuff (which is less and less usable for me and other poser users as time goes by). They have held my credit card hostage (and happily so) since DAZ shot off from Zygote to feed us, the hungry Poser masses who put them on the map....we must remember. I ALWAYS felt DAZ offered great product and great service and rarely asked for a refund or credit on a product for reason of it not working. But this week I now feel otherwise. and of late that feeling has worsened. I don't know about you all but I don't use all the products i purchase within the required 30 days. Some products i purchase on sale when released as offered at a lower price and archive it for use when needed....sometimes years later.
For example, I have almost ALL the Mil3 figures and NEVER got to use them having gone from the well made and long used MIl2 figures to the Mil4 set when I finally migrated from Poser 4 to Poser 7 and PoserPro 2014. I have sets and environments I have yet to use also installing them as needed. Only yesterday I needed the DAZ eagle I purchased when it was first released a LOOOONG time ago and was frustrated the resource forks were gone from constant migration from computer to computer, OS to OS. I was pretty frustrated having to convert .pict and .BUM files fro old Poser days to .jpg files for PP2014 and no longer having the old MAT files to change textures for it I had to add the new converted textures by hand and save the character off to my Runtime again to get new links for the textures. Not being a power user or able to rescript the MAT files I had to do it the LOOOOONG way. Shudering at tha tprocess I thought of just re-loading the product from my purchase history. Right!?
I tried downloading a fresh copy of the old Eagle to get all the stuff i needed and got even angrier when I realized my order history only goes back so far and that purchase along with hundreds of others was made BEFORE the order history was created. DAZ support did go back to find the analog orders but they did not go back far enough to ZYGOTE archives to help me. Had I not been a long time customer of thousands of dollars spent there and showed them my upgrade for the Eagle2 from Eagle 1 and the Expansion breed Pak for Eagle 1 in my history I would have been SOL and either been sent packing or forced to buy everything I needed AGAIN. As it turned out i got a credit for the Eagle 1and the expansion pak and used that money to get the Eagle 2 expansion pak and reloaded the Eagle 2 which I got as an upgrade from Eagle 1. Freaking Mess. By the time I was done with all that I lost my desire to do the render. Did some shots and went to bed! :(
I will not go to D/S and Genesis figures and I will not buy any more figures at all because I have WAAAAAAY to much invested in the older ones. Not a Power Poser user much of what poser has available to those who can wrap their creative/technical brains around its functions, I don't know how to do all the more advanced optional things mentioned here like re-purposing clothes from one figure to another, the cloth room, the hair room, the magnets and morph tools, etc.. If it isn't available to use out of the box won't do it. I have not been able to totally accept the notion of the forced obsolescence in working with this technology. We either suck it up and learn to tolerate for the sake of continuing our picture thing, or we leave the whole darn frustrating and expensive thing behind (which I am more and more migrating toward) and find another hobby like bird watching or squirrel feeding in the park. Sorry for the rant.....dinner time!
shante posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 3:52 PM
RorrKonn posted at 3:37PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234664
adh3d posted at 1:50AM Thu, 22 October 2015 - #4234636
You have to understand taht , since DAZ3d create Daz Studio, DAZ3d is not only a content creator, is a software competitor for SM, so, how can SM let their competitor include a part of software in Poser, it had been a suicide.
I have to add that if DAZ3d had wanted to make a figure compatible with Poser, the could do that just making two versions, genesis for DS and, we can say , V5 for Poser, using Poser weight mapping, but Daz take a way, and it is their own way, create content for their own software.
I get what your saying but DAZ was the driving force behind Poser since V1 days. Poser has been bolt n sold multiple times. Just about ever version of Poser has a deferent company backing it. And those companies always abandoned us. Vendors came n went. The only constant in the last decade + is DAZ. DAZ made Poser ,not what ever company just happened to own it that week. With out DAZ there would be no Poser like we know today.
I was around during what we called the main App's 3D Wars. There's a old abandoned Truspace 7 ,now free. That will never be upgraded again and sooner or latter will not work on modern OS's. Truespaces name will fade away but Truespace is one of the founding fathers of 3D. Back in the Poser 3 days Softimage was the King of 3D. Now Softimage R.I.P. Lightwave is nothing what it once was. Adobe is nothing what it once was.
Truspace ,Softimage ,Lightwave .Where all greater App's then Poser.
Actually it was Zygote from what little memory serves me and that isn't much nowadays, that made Poser. And if i can still draw from that faulty memory) and I am sure if wrong here I will certainly get "wet Noodled" as the saying was then, Didn't Zygote actually create the original Poser on-board figures? When They saw where the poser community was taking the app they saw potential dollars there and DAZ was born. Not long after Poser 4 released and DAZ took hold Mil1 figures were birthed and welcomed in the community as being so much more beautiful and realistic compared to the ugly Posette and Dork figures prior. Well, at least I thought so so much in fact i till use them from time to time in my renders. You won't see me using Posette or Dork anytime soon...or EVER again!!!
As far as those apps you mention they may have been greater than Poser but you fail to recognize the niche poser catered to: guys and gals like me, amateur users who used it as a replacement to drawing or photography to create images (even as an artist myself I will no longer call my renders "ART" anymore!). As an image maker like me, there are many many other poser users who are NOT Power users, we can't wrap our brains around script, and code adjusting in wordpad, Pythoning this and that, learning magnets and morph tools, hair room functions, cloth room functions, animation or advanced Material room uses. Never mind the higher end functions I have enviously read about in this thread that would allow me to migrate clothes and textures from one DAZ figure to another third party one. I have purchase dso damn many characters that looked good and regretted it when i realized there was and would NEVER be community support for them. And for non Power users like me that is a death nill regarding continued use of a product limited in use to fulfill my needs as a Poser users. If not ready with everything i need pretty much out of the box I will not buy it until I see who else is impressed by it enough to add more support for it for ALL of us to buy into.
shante posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 4:14 PM
meatSim posted at 3:55PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4232449
the one thing with 'Leaving V4' is.. well what are you getting out of it, and what is it costing you. Is there really that much content being cranked out for other figures that is -that- much different than whats available for v4? Of course the newer figures themselves have lots of advantages over v4 BUT.. I find a lot of those advantages are kind of hidden once you make use of all your content (Ie.. clothe the poor girl!) Usually for me, the point comes to start using a new figure when there is a piece of content that I MUST have and its not available for a figure that i do already have.
THere are a few here who know me and my obsessive coveting of certain iconic figures of human history. One such figure is the Centaur and another is the Minotaur. When I was drawing and painting I did many images with these figures in place. I have collected furtively these same figures for use in Poser. I have been left wanting since Poser 4. Now that DAZ no longer supports Poser users with product compatible OUT OF THE BOX natively i see a Minotaur figure, the most coveted by me, finally available but only for D/S and with interface available ONLY with Genesis figures. When DAZ offshot from Zygote and started their much touted "unimesh" figures I thought back then, very excitedly that my days of waiting were over. That this new "unimesh" technology would now perhaps catch on allowing good content creators to start moving those meshes around to create new and exciting content realistic enough to use side by side with the more realistic Mil1 &2 figures in Poser.
Man was I freaking Wrong. When they finally got it right it is only for D/S and not for Poser. If I could wrap my dying gray matter around it and if i could afford re-buying all the content I have for use exclusively in D/S, I would but I can't so i have to give up my covetous ways and forget about seeing what DAZ is no longer offering the likes of me as a Poser user set in his albeit limited ways and with a huge lump of money invested in this hobby (yeah, I said invested because that is exactly what it has come to be). Because the heart can not covet what the eye doesn't see i go to DAZ less and less these days to avoid the sadness of never being able to have those gret little things i have always wanted to use in Poser.
I gotta say, that I did find a great solution for that Unavailable Genesis based Minotaur For D/S in Sharky's offering of the Minotaur for the mil4 figures and glad at least someone in the community is thinking of me LOL.
shante posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 4:45 PM
RorrKonn posted at 4:35PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234492
Smith Micro has a list of softwares they sell.Poser is a software.
DAZ is a vendor.I know they make DAZ Studio but that was only so they could have more control as a vender. make there meshes compatible for all softwares .They even have Max n Maya on there home page Poser to
Smith Micro is not a vendor. None of the companies that owned Poser ever was a vendor. 90%+ of Poser users has always depended on DAZ n Vicky.
Adobe is a software company. It does not make content either.
But, man, if you couldn't open, say TIFs with it or NEFs or TGAs or some other very commonly used file types within that industry, it would rapidly lose customers to the free software that does open those files -- except that with 2d files, it's possible to convert from one format to another easily. Moreover, it is possible to create content from scratch with nothing but Adobe software.
With Poser, you can create poses and materials using only Poser. But not models (unless you make them out of primitives). So SM is in a fairly unique position: they don't sell much supporting content for software that can't be used to create its own.
At some point, once you start using other software to create content -- because YOU HAVE TO -- isn't there always the chance that you might pose and render in that software as well? Unless Poser can keep up with future advances in full featured modelling software -- which is has so far, granted -- I'm wondering why any new customer would buy it at all.
The bigger issue is that it's also always possible that a large portion of Poser owners only bought or used the software in order to create content for it. If those people aren't planning on creating more content for Poser, they won't be buying Poser 11, either. Every vendor (or even freebie maker) who goes wholeheartedly over to making Daz Studio content is another customer lost to SM.
I think the technical term for what's about to happen is a downward spiral.
At one time Photoshop cost to much now it's dirt cheap n there running specials all the time. Now there having difficulties giving Photoshop away.Wonder if all the $50 2D app's have anything to do with that.
ah Poser has never keeped up ,not even close.Not geting SubD's untill 2014 just says it all.
No I'm not exporting a character out of Houdini a $4500 app that has a $200 indie license to Posers.
Actually I won't buy PhotoShop again. I got the last version in the bundle set a CX version and have owned ALL the versions from PSD1. But I get miffed when I gotta RENT an application or use it "from the cloud"paying on a month to month basis. I want it in my computer or computers around the house without worrying about internet connectivity or traffic to "git'erDone"! When they changed their use options for new and old users a lot of users not using it professionally and needing it for well known compatible industry standard functionality are migrating to other apps. Greed in the long run hurts the bottom line. Im just not convinced it was expediency and end user ease of use that motored their business engine as much as believing they could make more money on their product(s).
Though Poser content sucks and has from the beginning. When DAZ put 1 out there and the follow-up Millenium mesh products all the people in these here forums went with their product. I see very little imagery created in Poser that includes their pipeline products. I personally think the on-board characters for poser are ugly and lacking in quality build and texturing compared to the DAZ products I have used.
RorrKonn posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 4:51 PM
shante .It's your choice to decide how deep to go down the rabbit hole. but if you stay on the surface your never see the magic of it all.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
Khory_D posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 6:27 PM
"So, my question is, as a "Don't know sheitz about modeling myself" kinda person, what would it take for a vendor of similar products that need absolutely NO connection with the complex issues of blend zones and mesh configurations and all that necessary knowledge in making product for HUMANOID/ANIMAL figures, to also in the process of creating a set of said kind to ALSO offer a version that works natively in Poser?"
The last poser product I did sold less than 20% of the volume of an identical studio product during intro and then sales ground to a halt on it. I also know that when various people stopped poser support they saw no change in sales numbers on products but a fair bit of time gained not doing the alternate settings for poser. For the average content creator a 20% return on the same amount of work on setting up surfaces etc just is not viable. So what it would take is at an absolute minimum a sales increase that was at least 50% of the sales for a Studio only product. Ideally of course the sales volume numbers should match those should match for a comparable product or double for a combined studio/poser product.
Daz was able to hold out much longer than the brokered content creators as far as support goes, and Jack is still fighting the good fight in order to be faithful to the plat members. But for most of us the sales numbers vs time to support has been clear for a while. Keep in mind that it isn't just that you may not get back the time spent to support poser you are also taking time that could be spent more profitably. It isn't as if the average content provider is rolling in cash and when your walking a fine line you do have to make sure that things are going to be profitable enough to pay the bills and put food on the table.
www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators
shante posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 6:42 PM
RorrKonn posted at 6:35PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234949
shante .It's your choice to decide how deep to go down the rabbit hole. but if you stay on the surface your never see the magic of it all.
I know but three deaths in the family a few years ago and all the crap that ensued with mind and body, and i am even less than before able to embrace complex stuff. The brain took a major hit with the pain and medications for it. Not that i was ever the sharpest nail in the bag(as some of you at some point here have come to understand about me) but now less than ever can I wrap the dead brain around the stuff one needs to learn to dive into the tech rabbit hole.. I don't not because i am afraid to but because i have tried again and again and hit the wall....HARD. Got tired of the unneeded stress that was causing me. Poser was as it has always been for me: AN ESCAPE. if it turns into more work and anxiety than i can handle it is no longer something i want to pursue. Some make choices out of a need to grow or a fear of failure or a lack of funds while others make choices that work easiest for their ability....or lack of them. Just is what it is friend. I don't like it but..........
shante posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 6:51 PM
Khory_D posted at 6:45PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234961
"So, my question is, as a "Don't know sheitz about modeling myself" kinda person, what would it take for a vendor of similar products that need absolutely NO connection with the complex issues of blend zones and mesh configurations and all that necessary knowledge in making product for HUMANOID/ANIMAL figures, to also in the process of creating a set of said kind to ALSO offer a version that works natively in Poser?"
The last poser product I did sold less than 20% of the volume of an identical studio product during intro and then sales ground to a halt on it. I also know that when various people stopped poser support they saw no change in sales numbers on products but a fair bit of time gained not doing the alternate settings for poser. For the average content creator a 20% return on the same amount of work on setting up surfaces etc just is not viable. So what it would take is at an absolute minimum a sales increase that was at least 50% of the sales for a Studio only product. Ideally of course the sales volume numbers should match those should match for a comparable product or double for a combined studio/poser product.
Daz was able to hold out much longer than the brokered content creators as far as support goes, and Jack is still fighting the good fight in order to be faithful to the plat members. But for most of us the sales numbers vs time to support has been clear for a while. Keep in mind that it isn't just that you may not get back the time spent to support poser you are also taking time that could be spent more profitably. It isn't as if the average content provider is rolling in cash and when your walking a fine line you do have to make sure that things are going to be profitable enough to pay the bills and put food on the table.
Oh I understand but for guys like me who love certain products and despite willing to pay for them are unable to because we see them for an app we do not have or will never (I think and hope) get, it is frustrating. I am old enough and experienced enough to understand the need for profit and/or proper compensation but I thought Artists didn't need money! (sorry that was tongue in cheek and sarcastic because you have no idea how damn many times clients or prospective clients and employers threw that at me in the course of my trying to eek out an existence in photography illustration or Graphic Design so much i quit the whole damn circus after years of training and growing experience and skill sets, after years of trying to make it. Knowledge is king here and I just wanted to be told by someone in the know that is is more difficult that it seems to create like products for two platforms/apps. Thanks,
RorrKonn posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 7:01 PM
Some vendors might have chosen to not support Poser but it seems most DAZ vendors do not support all of DAZ either.
Some make a out fit for 1 DAZ character. The out fit is made for G2 or G3 n maybe a V6 or something.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
Zev0 posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 7:04 PM
Yes but there is autofit support, so there is no need to release it for every specific figure or generation. Sometimes when an item fits perfectly on a figure that isn't supported, there won't be a need for an official version for that figure because the clothing fits fine. Also in most of the clothing the other figure shapes are supported via FMB's if required. Eg I can fit all my G3 clothes on Genesis 2 via a clone. I do not need a dedicated Genesis 2 version of that clothing, and vice versa.
RorrKonn posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 7:11 PM
shante posted at 8:05PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234969
Khory_D posted at 6:45PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234961
"So, my question is, as a "Don't know sheitz about modeling myself" kinda person, what would it take for a vendor of similar products that need absolutely NO connection with the complex issues of blend zones and mesh configurations and all that necessary knowledge in making product for HUMANOID/ANIMAL figures, to also in the process of creating a set of said kind to ALSO offer a version that works natively in Poser?"
The last poser product I did sold less than 20% of the volume of an identical studio product during intro and then sales ground to a halt on it. I also know that when various people stopped poser support they saw no change in sales numbers on products but a fair bit of time gained not doing the alternate settings for poser. For the average content creator a 20% return on the same amount of work on setting up surfaces etc just is not viable. So what it would take is at an absolute minimum a sales increase that was at least 50% of the sales for a Studio only product. Ideally of course the sales volume numbers should match those should match for a comparable product or double for a combined studio/poser product.
Daz was able to hold out much longer than the brokered content creators as far as support goes, and Jack is still fighting the good fight in order to be faithful to the plat members. But for most of us the sales numbers vs time to support has been clear for a while. Keep in mind that it isn't just that you may not get back the time spent to support poser you are also taking time that could be spent more profitably. It isn't as if the average content provider is rolling in cash and when your walking a fine line you do have to make sure that things are going to be profitable enough to pay the bills and put food on the table.
Oh I understand but for guys like me who love certain products and despite willing to pay for them are unable to because we see them for an app we do not have or will never (I think and hope) get, it is frustrating. I am old enough and experienced enough to understand the need for profit and/or proper compensation but I thought Artists didn't need money! (sorry that was tongue in cheek and sarcastic because you have no idea how damn many times clients or prospective clients and employers threw that at me in the course of my trying to eek out an existence in photography illustration or Graphic Design so much i quit the whole damn circus after years of training and growing experience and skill sets, after years of trying to make it. Knowledge is king here and I just wanted to be told by someone in the know that is is more difficult that it seems to create like products for two platforms/apps. Thanks,
I'm a bit out dated on this but it's still the same concept. it still works the same more or less. when I made a out fit for A3 in Poser 5 days .I realized it was way ,way ,way easyer to use a main app. I used LW at the time.It was easyer to re rig A3 n attach the cloths in LW. Then it was to attach the cloths in Poser 5.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
RorrKonn posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 7:24 PM
Zev0 posted at 8:22PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234972
Yes but there is autofit support, so there is no need to release it for every specific figure or generation. Sometimes when an item fits perfectly on a figure that isn't supported, there won't be a need for an official version for that figure because the clothing fits fine. Also in most of the clothing the other figure shapes are supported via FMB's if required. Eg I can fit all my G3 clothes on Genesis 2 via a clone. I do not need a dedicated Genesis 2 version of that clothing, and vice versa.
How good would autofit work from Bethany 7 to young teen 5 Julie ?
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Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
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Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
Zev0 posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 7:46 PM
Depends on how the clothing was made and what type of clothing it is. Since I don't think there is a Genesis 3 clone for Genesis 1 which Teen 5 Julie is based on, you could fit the Bethany 7 (Genesis 3) item to Genesis 2 since there is a Genesis 3 autofit clone for it, and from there autofit it onto Teen 5 Julie which is based on Genesis 1, since it has a Genesis 2 autofit clone available. So basically a two stage autofit transfer -> G3 to G2 to G1. Again, these days clothing is made for the base, and has fbm's for shapes like Bethany 7 etc so it can be used on a wider range of characters, so technically the clothing isn't Bethany 7 specific.
Zev0 posted Fri, 23 October 2015 at 8:04 PM
Or...You can transfer Teen 5 Julie shape to Genesis 2 and just have a one stage autofit transfer of the clothing Eg G3 to G2. All depends on your preference.
RorrKonn posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 12:56 AM
I've bumbed around DAZ Poser for a long time.
This is how I see it.
If I wanted characters in DAZ Poser I would use my own. I won't work with others meshes and there rules. If I work with my meshes I make the rules.
I have no doubt ALL CGI Artist that is capable of making characters have the exact same philosophy as me.
Lets say I make a female character for DAZ Studio. I couldn't sell my female at DAZ.com and I see DAZes advertisement every where. DAZ has multiple female characters with multiple venders supporting them and auto fit so any out fit fits any DAZ female.
So if I made a DAZ female character.it would be as noticeable as one drop of water in a hurricane.
I have no doubt DAZ Knows they have a monopoly on DAZ Poser characters and would War to keep it. Not that I wouldn't do the same.
Every one talks about this vendor or that vendor stop supporting Poser. Really the only vendor that mattered was DAZ.DAZ leaving Poser just says it all don't it.
Now DAZ have left Poser. but DAZ built there empire making Poser characters. So could another build there empire making Poser characters ? you no longer have DAZ as a competitor for Poser characters.
So what do you think ,could another build a Poser characters Empire ?
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
false1 posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 6:03 AM
RorrKonn posted at 6:57AM Sat, 24 October 2015 - #4235030
I've bumbed around DAZ Poser for a long time.
This is how I see it.
If I wanted characters in DAZ Poser I would use my own. I won't work with others meshes and there rules. If I work with my meshes I make the rules.
I have no doubt ALL CGI Artist that is capable of making characters have the exact same philosophy as me.
Lets say I make a female character for DAZ Studio. I couldn't sell my female at DAZ.com and I see DAZes advertisement every where. DAZ has multiple female characters with multiple venders supporting them and auto fit so any out fit fits any DAZ female.
So if I made a DAZ female character.it would be as noticeable as one drop of water in a hurricane.
I have no doubt DAZ Knows they have a monopoly on DAZ Poser characters and would War to keep it. Not that I wouldn't do the same.
Every one talks about this vendor or that vendor stop supporting Poser. Really the only vendor that mattered was DAZ.DAZ leaving Poser just says it all don't it.
Now DAZ have left Poser. but DAZ built there empire making Poser characters. So could another build there empire making Poser characters ? you no longer have DAZ as a competitor for Poser characters.
So what do you think ,could another build a Poser characters Empire ?
The difficulty is that Poser was a monopoly then and it isn't anymore. Plus the competitor is getting all the juice at the moment. The only one trying at the moment is HiveWire and even they know better than go Poser only. They are also relying on creators to support Poser as well as Daz. Those vendors will have to make the same support decisions as everyone else.
The veteran Poser users are saying "I don't need no stinkin' content" and the newer users are saying "I can't wait for the tide to turn" and don't have a large vested interest in Poser.
________________________________
Dale B posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 6:09 AM
Absolutely. But. It would require ignoring the D.A.Z. word completely. Remember that a great deal of the 'cool tech' that the D word used to build that 'empire' was not theirs to begin with. It was, in fact, either created by Poser users (INJ, ERC, as just a couple of of them), or it was exploits of Poser bugs the community took and ran with (conforming figure). It would take someone embracing what Poser can do now, with a willingness to embrace whatever new concepts and cool kludges that the community cooks up. It would also require the patience of the gods to deal with the nay sayers, the 'But its not Viiiicky!" whiners, and the no doubt well meaning ambassadors from previous empire(s) who would no doubt delight in chucking whatever hand grenades they could find into things just to increase the chaos. The biggest obstacle would be the 'I want it NOW!' mindset of the underclassmen. The Poser cottage industry -grew- over years; it didn't just magically appear one day (although I daresay you could find those willing to claim they pulled it from their ass fully formed). People would find things others had made for personal pleasure or edification, and beg and plead for it to be made available. -Thats- where that industry actually came from. The first D figure to replace Posette was....shall we say crude to the max? It was the -community- that made the original V thing into a viable figure to use. Not its creator. I still have all the morphs from Morphworld that Traveler made in Blacksmith to -make- it usable. That is the thing that's really changed; that 'Look at this cool trick I just figured out!' "Wow man, that is cool! How'd you do that?' 'Well, (technobabble), like that!' 'Neat! But.... Bla Bla's trick. -That- does this other thing. And if you can do these two things, can't you combine them and make this other effect kinda work?" 'Sonofabitch, you can! And if you throw in Goofus's texture trick thingy...!' mindset.
Sound familiar, forum fossils? That was the spirit that built not only the program but the cottage industry. That spirit hasn't died by any means; we have the likes of Bagginsbill sharing the results of his shader magic. Why is he doing it? As per his words: Fun. Not '$10.99 and the first 100 get a free Squoogie!'. Fun. He's just one example. Look at Nerd3D's contributions...most starting out as 'I'm gonna beat that little bugger!' Diogenes rigging in V4WM is a thing of beauty, particularly since he was banging away on a decade old mesh topology set up for almost 20 year old rigging technology. Personally, I'd love to see Shvrdavid's facial rigging setups and play with one. Bone driven faces? Stop and think about that one. No facial morphs for expressions. That is the kind of thing you do in Maya, and we can do it now in Poser. The tricks that permit such things could be used for other things, as well (one example: no one has used the dependent parameter dial to animate a large series of simple motions, but you could. You could make say, a steampunk contraption or an old fashioned computer wall, have simple axial animation on parts, and link them all together so that one dial brings the whole thing to life. That dependent parameter capability is what -allows- Shvrdavid to link multiple bones in a face to create facial motion. It could be used to link multiple movement morphs in a piece of conforming clothing, as well). Weight maps can be used on -anything- that moves or has motion. So can bulge maps (example: a soda can. Set a single or double joint rig in the can to allow it to be 'crushed'. A weight map can be painted that allows -different- crushes, depending on the behavior of the rig. Bulge maps can be added around the joints of the rig so the 'can' deforms as a real can does. Now. Stop and think what else that kind of deformation technology can be used for).
Poser would need to make certain features a little more user friendly (this is where having a nerd like Nerd in their house is going to be handy), and field a new figure that has appeal visually. And the *Poser* community needs to really stop worrying what other communities do. I don't know if anyone has really noticed it yet, but we've got most of the goodies under the hood to support an actual muscle armature. Not there yet, but close. Maybe if some nerds and geeks sat down and poked at that bear, they might find that the redheaded stepchild of CG -can- do it now... Certainly wouldn't be the first time. Or if not, find that the program needs just -one- feature to make it so. Gives everyone something to focus on then, doesn't it?
The one thing people will have to get through their heads is that it will take time. Time, and being willing to learn again and stretch the mental muscles.
Khory_D posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 8:30 AM
Oh I understand but for guys like me who love certain products and despite willing to pay for them are unable to because we see them for an app we do not have or will never (I think and hope) get, it is frustrating. I am old enough and experienced enough to understand the need for profit and/or proper compensation but I thought Artists didn't need money! (sorry that was tongue in cheek and sarcastic because you have no idea how damn many times clients or prospective clients and employers threw that at me in the course of my trying to eek out an existence in photography illustration or Graphic Design so much i quit the whole damn circus after years of training and growing experience and skill sets, after years of trying to make it. Knowledge is king here and I just wanted to be told by someone in the know that is is more difficult that it seems to create like products for two platforms/apps. Thanks,
It isn't difficult. Difficulty isn't the issue. As with most things it is time. In this case it is a time vs compensation. Lets say that I do a set of props. Because all the modeling is the same (ish) for studio and poser I don't included that time in my math. I'd spend that time no matter what. What is left? Setting up the surfaces, thumbs and promos. I could be a total slacker, plenty of people use to do it in order to support studio, and simply do an auto convert of my surfaces and call it a day. I can then claim support without actually having put any effort into it. I doubt anyone with a moral compass would be comfortable with that and I know the end users would not be. Doing proper surfaces is going to take about the same set up time it did for Studio. In theory I could carry over the studio thumbs and only do one poser promo to save time. So, in theory a 30-40 percent income increase would cover that extra time. I'm not sure about sales numbers here but for myself and the people I know it has been a long time since that happened. Maybe 30-40 seems like not much but the sad reality is people stopped seeing that a good while ago. It will be even less viable going forward as cycles gets added. If at some point cycles can use MDL (a growing standard shader language by the way that is used by quite a variety of programs already) then that would change everything because it would be a native compatibility.
www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators
Khory_D posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 10:29 AM
_Lets say I make a female character for DAZ Studio. I couldn't sell my female at DAZ.com and I see DAZes advertisement every where. DAZ has multiple female characters with multiple venders supporting them and auto fit so any out fit fits any DAZ female.
So if I made a DAZ female character.it would be as noticeable as one drop of water in a hurricane.
I have no doubt DAZ Knows they have a monopoly on DAZ Poser characters and would War to keep it. Not that I wouldn't do the same.
Every one talks about this vendor or that vendor stop supporting Poser. Really the only vendor that mattered was DAZ.DAZ leaving Poser just says it all don't it.
Now DAZ have left Poser. but DAZ built there empire making Poser characters. So could another build there empire making Poser characters ? you no longer have DAZ as a competitor for Poser characters.
So what do you think ,could another build a Poser characters Empire ?_
Why could you not sell a new figure at Daz? Because they do their own? Well as I have said before Daz is pretty pragmatic and if someone brought them an amazing figure and there was a way to blend it into the work flow studio users expect I think they would snap it up. They would save all that R&D time for one thing. Do I think they would plop some stand alone figure in the store and hope it got support? Not so much, because that would just be sad for the creator and they are not inclined to set people up to fail.
If Daz still has a monopoly on characters for Poser there is absolutely no one to blame but SM. If customer base numbers are not where they should be to keep Poser in the lead there is no one to blame but SM. SM should have been as aware of market changes as any of us. They could have addressed the lack of content on their part years ago. They even had a brokerage that they could have really leveraged but decided not to. Instead they have pretty much rested on resale of Poser to existing users and let the rest go hang.
I fully understand them not wanting to hitch to Daz's wagon. After all if that really worked out well there would be no Studio and we wouldn't be talking about any of this. But the minute they deiced they could forgo the new Daz line of characters they needed to get a machine going to produce their own with full support and start out of market advertising to build user numbers back up. If they were not going to depend on Daz character content any more then they needed to have competing characters, and support for them in place before that version of Poser even hit the shelves. And they needed to put as much or more effort into driving in new poser users as Daz has done with studio for the last few years. If they didn't have the money to invest in all of that they needed to seriously consider making the newer Daz figures usable natively in Poser.
Could another empire be built on poser characters? Maybe, but it would be load of work and would require some heavy cash investments from the start. Don't forget that for over 10 years sales of those characters has also been to studio users. And for at least the last 5 those sales have been at least 50% of those sales. With the numbers shifting more grammatically away from Poser over the last 3 years. So to build an empire on just poser characters someone would have to drive a huge user increase and to do that they would have to do marketing catch up which would cost money. And then of course they would have to have a compelling, cutting edge, and well supported day one (by themselves and by a score of content creators) character that would pull money out of pockets from the day of release and not slow down. Unless someone wins the lottery I am not holding my breath on that happening.
www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators
AmbientShade posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 12:30 PM
I've already suspended two people in this thread who chose to ignore my request to stop the arguing and software/figure bashing. I can suspend more if I need to.
If you don't want to use Poser for whatever reasons, that's your decision. If you think DS is better then go use DS. But this forum is not going to be your platform for ranting about why you don't like Poser, or what you think of its users. We are actively removing the problem members from this forum. If you don't want to be on that list then keep your negativity to yourself.
moriador posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 2:04 PM
Dale B posted at 11:51AM Sat, 24 October 2015 - #4235042
Absolutely. But. It would require ignoring the D.A.Z. word completely. Remember that a great deal of the 'cool tech' that the D word used to build that 'empire' was not theirs to begin with. It was, in fact, either created by Poser users (INJ, ERC, as just a couple of of them), or it was exploits of Poser bugs the community took and ran with (conforming figure). It would take someone embracing what Poser can do now, with a willingness to embrace whatever new concepts and cool kludges that the community cooks up. It would also require the patience of the gods to deal with the nay sayers, the 'But its not Viiiicky!" whiners, and the no doubt well meaning ambassadors from previous empire(s) who would no doubt delight in chucking whatever hand grenades they could find into things just to increase the chaos. The biggest obstacle would be the 'I want it NOW!' mindset of the underclassmen. The Poser cottage industry -grew- over years; it didn't just magically appear one day (although I daresay you could find those willing to claim they pulled it from their ass fully formed). People would find things others had made for personal pleasure or edification, and beg and plead for it to be made available. -Thats- where that industry actually came from. The first D figure to replace Posette was....shall we say crude to the max? It was the -community- that made the original V thing into a viable figure to use. Not its creator. I still have all the morphs from Morphworld that Traveler made in Blacksmith to -make- it usable. That is the thing that's really changed; that 'Look at this cool trick I just figured out!' "Wow man, that is cool! How'd you do that?' 'Well, (technobabble), like that!' 'Neat! But.... Bla Bla's trick. -That- does this other thing. And if you can do these two things, can't you combine them and make this other effect kinda work?" 'Sonofabitch, you can! And if you throw in Goofus's texture trick thingy...!' mindset.
Sound familiar, forum fossils? That was the spirit that built not only the program but the cottage industry. That spirit hasn't died by any means; we have the likes of Bagginsbill sharing the results of his shader magic. Why is he doing it? As per his words: Fun. Not '$10.99 and the first 100 get a free Squoogie!'. Fun. He's just one example. Look at Nerd3D's contributions...most starting out as 'I'm gonna beat that little bugger!' Diogenes rigging in V4WM is a thing of beauty, particularly since he was banging away on a decade old mesh topology set up for almost 20 year old rigging technology. Personally, I'd love to see Shvrdavid's facial rigging setups and play with one. Bone driven faces? Stop and think about that one. No facial morphs for expressions. That is the kind of thing you do in Maya, and we can do it now in Poser. The tricks that permit such things could be used for other things, as well (one example: no one has used the dependent parameter dial to animate a large series of simple motions, but you could. You could make say, a steampunk contraption or an old fashioned computer wall, have simple axial animation on parts, and link them all together so that one dial brings the whole thing to life. That dependent parameter capability is what -allows- Shvrdavid to link multiple bones in a face to create facial motion. It could be used to link multiple movement morphs in a piece of conforming clothing, as well). Weight maps can be used on -anything- that moves or has motion. So can bulge maps (example: a soda can. Set a single or double joint rig in the can to allow it to be 'crushed'. A weight map can be painted that allows -different- crushes, depending on the behavior of the rig. Bulge maps can be added around the joints of the rig so the 'can' deforms as a real can does. Now. Stop and think what else that kind of deformation technology can be used for).
Poser would need to make certain features a little more user friendly (this is where having a nerd like Nerd in their house is going to be handy), and field a new figure that has appeal visually. And the *Poser* community needs to really stop worrying what other communities do. I don't know if anyone has really noticed it yet, but we've got most of the goodies under the hood to support an actual muscle armature. Not there yet, but close. Maybe if some nerds and geeks sat down and poked at that bear, they might find that the redheaded stepchild of CG -can- do it now... Certainly wouldn't be the first time. Or if not, find that the program needs just -one- feature to make it so. Gives everyone something to focus on then, doesn't it?
The one thing people will have to get through their heads is that it will take time. Time, and being willing to learn again and stretch the mental muscles.
I believe you're right. The dependence on Daz to provide content has made much of the userbase very lazy in comparison to what they were a decade or more ago. It's for the reasons you describe that I think the market split will ultimately be good for Poser.
And as Rorr points out, there will be no competition from Daz for Poser products.
But it is going to be very painful for a while for customers who rely on third party content -- and have grown accustomed to just getting it with ease. And painful for vendors who could previously upload their 30th V4 bikini and still expect sales. But then major change is always uncomfortable.
At the moment, however, Daz still sets the standard for figure content. It would be nice to see Poser content exceed that standard. It's not as though the technology isn't there -- right now, though it could be easier to use. Here's hoping 2016 offers up some much desired changes. Nerd's a content creator and a vendor, so he knows perfectly well where the roadblocks are in the creator's workflow. We'll just have to see....
In any case, I am going to upgrade to the new Poser when it's out because they promised me a selection tool that will not accidentally translate the items I've selected! For me, just that will be worth the upgrade cost. :)
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
Dale B posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 4:41 PM
Oh, there will be pain, no two ways. That's what makes it worth it. Not pleasant maybe (I dare anyone to say stitching 7 disparate dance BVH files from different sources together with Posers dopesheet and graph editor is in any way painless....agonizing is more accurate...), but the results of success are so worth it.
RorrKonn posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 6:39 PM
Well my thoughts are scattered about this. I am a CGI Artist ,I am not a business man. I always thought it would be fun to make characters for Poser. Not just some sexy girl but all kinds of characters. Monsters, Dragons ,Snakes ,All kind of Mechs etc etc.
I enjoy gallerys but I can only take so much pretty scenes.Where's the dirt ,grim n blood ? I don't make a lot of pretty clean Art.
Thought I would start with a snake see how far I can take Posers textures n all. Then some monsters n beast n work my way up to making the Ruling Queen of Poser.
Like the saying goes .Better to rule in ...
it's W.I.P. a long ways to go ;)
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
EldritchCellar posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 8:58 PM
Model it completely straight with the eyes and mouth partially closed, teeth bent in, and hood partway extended. It'll save you hassles with UV and rig. Morphs and erc will take care of the rest, trust me not as complicated as it sounds.
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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5
My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG
RorrKonn posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 10:44 PM
EldritchCellar posted at 11:37PM Sat, 24 October 2015 - #4235129
Model it completely straight with the eyes and mouth partially closed, teeth bent in, and hood partway extended. It'll save you hassles with UV and rig. Morphs and erc will take care of the rest, trust me not as complicated as it sounds.
Excellent advice ,good thing one of us knows what there doing. and I'll be sure to straiten the snake out before I start mapping n rigging or anything. but I'm kinda making it up as I go .there's know blue print except these I'm roughly basing the snake on. So I half to model the front bent cause it's how I see it in my head. but I'll be sure to straiten the snake out once it's modeled.
Thanks for the help :)
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
estherau posted Sat, 24 October 2015 at 11:34 PM
that snake looks great. Any chance you could make me a little pink earthworm like this one please one day after you finish snakey. with spectacles please.
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
RorrKonn posted Sun, 25 October 2015 at 1:11 AM
estherau posted at 2:10AM Sun, 25 October 2015 - #4235141
that snake looks great. Any chance you could make me a little pink earthworm like this one please one day after you finish snakey. with spectacles please.
What's all the text in the .jpg say ? What key words would you use to google it ?
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
drifterlee posted Sun, 25 October 2015 at 7:26 PM
I do not want Poser to die, and if everyone abandons V4 and other figures that work in Poser that is what will happen. I am worried about all the content being made of the latest batch of Daz-only characters. I don't even want to learn to use Daz. Studio. Long live Poser!!!!!!
Khory_D posted Sun, 25 October 2015 at 11:02 PM
RorrKonn, very few of us got into content creation to be "business people". In fact that is one of the worst aspects of the whole process. Depending on where you broker you may have to do pretty much everything, including your own marketing. I think most of us start out wanting to figure out how things work end then move on to the making them instead of making images.
As texturing has changed we have seen much more "dirty, grungy, bloody" turning up. It use to be just crazy tedious to add that sort of stuff. I'm not sure what you plan to texture with but the products in Substance live are amazing. And well priced. But be warned! You can really lose yourself in it.
I agree with EldritchCellar about modeling it without bends. Pulling those out is going to be a huge pain in the posterior. Course if it were me doing it I would still have 3 restarts before I felt fully committed to it.
www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators
RorrKonn posted Mon, 26 October 2015 at 2:38 AM
If you make killer meshes ,People will notice. I will use any and all App's to make killer meshes including allegorithmics :)
n if your talking a huge pain in the posterior ,Mechs are a night mare from the deepest pits of ...
About the dirt,blood n grimm .show me one DAZ Poser render that's = to Spartacus or Moses.There just aren't any. DAZ Poser has the cleanest War Lords ever seen.
I don't aim to make meshes just good enough for Poser. they half to be good enough for Hollywood.
If I wanted to make some quick change I'd make some stupid panties for the girls.
I've herd countless time hear .you can't do this or that cause of what ever.
DAZ left there Poser Throne. I will claim that Throne.
I've had but one goal since 2nd grade ,that was the stone age by the way ;).To be the best Artist .
I could texture 10 pairs of panties a hour n who cares.
My meshes are not fast n easy .but they are killer :)
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
Khory_D posted Mon, 26 October 2015 at 8:30 AM
"About the dirt,blood n grimm .show me one DAZ Poser render that's = to Spartacus or Moses.There just aren't any. DAZ Poser has the cleanest War Lords ever seen."
Mostly because those wars are fought on TOS galleries.
Something to keep in mind is that content should aim to be as versatile and flexible as it can be for what it is. Say you do a battle field and because you have never seen one that already has blood all over it you go ahead and texture that in. You may save a few people some time but odds are good that because your forcing your vision of a post battle field ground your going to loose more sales than you gain. Your telling the end user "this is where the blood was spilled" and "this is how much blood there was". What if they want it for animation and they need a pre battle scene? What if they want minimal battle in the foreground where you went heavy on the blood and they want the main battle in the background? The content creators job shouldn't be to tell the artist what their vision is but to help facilitate or inspire one.
www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators
bhoins posted Mon, 26 October 2015 at 9:29 AM
Khory_D posted at 8:25AM Mon, 26 October 2015 - #4235064
_Lets say I make a female character for DAZ Studio. I couldn't sell my female at DAZ.com and I see DAZes advertisement every where. DAZ has multiple female characters with multiple venders supporting them and auto fit so any out fit fits any DAZ female.
I am going to make a minor clarification here, as there seems to be some confusion, not based on what Khory is saying, but in general in the thread. Autofit is for transfer of clothing between figures (Genesis 2 Female to Genesis 2 Male for example or Genesis 2 Female to Genesis 3 female.). When the clothing is used on the same base figure with different morphs. (Victoria 7 to Bethany for example) that isn't Autofit but Morph Projection.
RobynsVeil posted Tue, 27 October 2015 at 3:21 AM
Seems to me there's a lot of Daz vendors on the Poser forum these days with business axes to grind.
Khory_D posted at 6:03PM Tue, 27 October 2015 - #4235064
Why could you not sell a new figure at Daz? Because they do their own? Well as I have said before Daz is pretty pragmatic and if someone brought them an amazing figure and there was a way to blend it into the work flow studio users expect I think they would snap it up.
Doubt it. They're giving Studio away for free on the hopes to make money on V7. There's nothing in it for them with new figures: look at the - putting it mildly - lukewarm reception anything HiveWire3D creates is getting. They would be indefensibly stupid to even consider another figure.
I'm a Poser user. I was a DS user, but gave up for reasons others have outlined eloquently above. Personally, I don't see V4 as a Daz product anymore since their latest Studio doesn't support it very well: it's all about V7, now (and making money... oh, I've put a LOT of money in Saz coffers, in the thousands) so I'm happy to use V4WM because despite the somewhat ordinary mesh, the work Diogenes did with it was exemplary.
I also use Dawn, albeit to a lesser degree.
I give stuff away these days (you'll need a .png for that, available at the bottom of this page ).
One of the best posts on this thread was by Dale B. I got into Poser (and Rendo) somewhere around 2006 - does that qualify me as a forum-fossil? 
Absolutely, the cottage industry started with a lot of imagination and WOW-look-at-this! stuff, doing things people thought impossible. I mean, just think: writing a script that allows you to build physically-accurate shaders! Imagine that! All within Poser.
The imagination is still there. But it's a bit obscured by business objectives of competitive-product individuals. Seems a shame, really.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Dale B posted Tue, 27 October 2015 at 6:44 AM
drifterlee posted at 5:53AM Tue, 27 October 2015 - #4235241
I do not want Poser to die, and if everyone abandons V4 and other figures that work in Poser that is what will happen. I am worried about all the content being made of the latest batch of Daz-only characters. I don't even want to learn to use Daz. Studio. Long live Poser!!!!!!
And that is the issue that needs to be clubbed to death, buried in a tar pit, set ablaze, sown with salt, nuked from orbit til it glows then shot in the dark. -Then- we get serious. DAZ and its products are not Poser's life. It is, in fact, the other way around. There would be no such thing as DAZ Studios if not for Poser; it was a spin off from Zygote, they who make high priced, high quality medical meshes and contract work. They did Posette, the return was good, and the user base around P4 clamored for more. There are many reasons told as to why DAZ spun off from Zygote, including that Zygote didn't like the some of the backlash that the redheaded stepchild of CG was getting back then. Ancient history now.
What has happened in the past with the shedding of one group or another? Someone has come in and filled the void. There was the The Great Faery Purge (Eeew, its disguised kiddy pron!), and names like Thorne went bye bye. Other vendors and creators filled the void. When Menhdi went off and created Poser Pros, same thing happened; names went there, exclusively. New vendors filled the void. Anyone remember Dan Cortopassi? Dacort's stuff, while using P4 tech levels, was and is magnificent. No one has approached his mermaid tails to this day. No knees there; the tails flex like a fish's. Geometry switching on the tail itself. You turn off the figure's legs and conform the tail, and you have yourself a merperson. Add modern shaders to the old texture maps and you get an amazing look. Sixus has been as still makes Poser figures. Syyd is still creating her little black heart away over at RDNA. The problem isn't lack of content creators; its quite literally having a death grip on DAZ as some kind of holy provider. Or at least on its products as some holy grail. (and that sound you hear is arteries hardening as the forum fossils hears names from years agone, and realizes that Oh My God it -has- been that long.....)
I animate. Mesh is nothing but a resource to me. I work in Poser because I know it, it handles basic file formats that can be made to work in just about anything so swapping resources is much easier. I admittedly am doing more work in iClone now just because of the better animation controls; but its still a game engine based program with game engine trade offs. And the motions are ported right back into Poser where I can go straight to Vue 2015. I have no intention of not using the V4 resource; but I also use V3-2-1 and the Stephanies, Micheals, and all the other family members, Posette, all of Dacort's figures (Natalia 1 & 2, Natrixa, Mariko, the clothes, the tails, Echidna, etc), another 20 or so figure from the past and present, the creatures that Sixus 1 has done, Davo's dungeon packs (take a jackhammer dildo, put a weathered effect on it, put it half in a wall and hide the obviously phallic end in another protrusion, and you suddenly have a piece of hi tech engineering. It's called kit bashing, and the limits are your imagination), Dystopia, Stonemason's sets that I own, and I could go on and on for oh, 80 gigs at least.... :P
The creativity is out here, with us. Only a microscopic portion of any of the content we used was contracted. First and foremeost, nearly all of it is a labor of love, and it shows. I fully expect there to be an exodus of those who prefer the competition, or at least the competitions resources. And it will take time, but new users and content creators will come in, as its never really been about the $$$. It's been folks who wanted a challenge. People who wanted to get started in CG. Artists who tried their hand and liked it. Technicians who found a challenge (Metaform, anyone?). Even today, years after 'The Split' (would look much better with large gothic font, maybe a choral background), our little program is still the dirty secret of CG, as far too many pros and not pros use Poser because it plays well with other programs. Can take basic .obj's and turn them into dynamic cloth...and now softbody objects. And so on down the feature list. Our little swiss army knife isn't a machete.....but its a damned good swiss army knife.
And yeah, you qualify Robyn. Maybe not calcified all the way through, like those of us who remember PFO, but you are definitely kept in a drawer in a humidity controlled room. ;)
bhoins posted Tue, 27 October 2015 at 8:30 AM
RobynsVeil posted at 7:28AM Tue, 27 October 2015 - #4235476
I'm a Poser user. I was a DS user, but gave up for reasons others have outlined eloquently above. Personally, I don't see V4 as a Daz product anymore since their latest >Studio doesn't support it very well: it's all about V7, now.
Please explain how Daz Studio does not support V4. It actually adds the ability to project morphs that are not present in the clothing with a right click.
atozed posted Wed, 28 October 2015 at 12:30 AM
bhoins posted at 12:28AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235499
RobynsVeil posted at 7:28AM Tue, 27 October 2015 - #4235476
I'm a Poser user. I was a DS user, but gave up for reasons others have outlined eloquently above. Personally, I don't see V4 as a Daz product anymore since their latest >Studio doesn't support it very well: it's all about V7, now.
Please explain how Daz Studio does not support V4. It actually adds the ability to project morphs that are not present in the clothing with a right click.
Yes. Please explain. I use V4 in Daz Studio all the time. And with the new iRay rendering engine, her characters and outfits have never looked better. There is very little difference using her in DS or Poser.
bevans84 posted Wed, 28 October 2015 at 1:12 AM
In Poser we've come to expect V4 to work much better than it does in Studio, because of deals like V4wmas, V4-WM, X&M's Perfect, i13's Overhaul, etc.
moriador posted Wed, 28 October 2015 at 3:26 AM
Hmmm. I'm going to backtrack from some earlier statements. Daz Connect (upcoming cloud based verification for content -- similar to Steam) is going to completely end any hopes for Poser compatibility with new Daz 4.9+ content, as** it looks like** this new content will only work in DS and in those apps that DS has a bridge with.
I'm not sure whether this means that V4 or Dawn (or both) is going to get a sudden new breath of life, or whether it's the best news SM and Poser users will get this year, or what? Still digesting it.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
DreaminGirl posted Wed, 28 October 2015 at 6:14 AM
Hmm yes. Encryption, cloud-based and DRM? Three words many people do NOT like. Totally not surprised to see Daz moving in that direction, tho what effect it will have for Poser is still uncertain. I don't think it will cause more users to move to Studio tho, quite possibly the opposite. I wouldn't leave V4 just yet ;) (but then I never leave any figures, they all have a use for me)
chaecuna posted Wed, 28 October 2015 at 8:10 AM
Apparently Smith Micro and DAZ managements are locked into a no holds barred challenge to discover who is going to make the most retarded choices. Smith Micro hit first, with a crippled Cycles, DAZ responded with DRM. I am waiting to see whether Smith Micro will concede defeat or up the game. In the mean time, this weekend I will start an assessment program about the viability of a non-Poser, non-Studio strategy.
I doubt that many people will go back to Poser but I think that a consistent amount of current DAZ customers will pass 4.9. Since in the past DAZ has already gone back on bad decisions (e.g. the one-mesh G1 vs. the sensible male/female mesh pair) it might be possible that in a couple of years DAZ will go back to an open approach.
atozed posted Wed, 28 October 2015 at 8:32 AM
bevans84 posted at 8:22AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235598
In Poser we've come to expect V4 to work much better than it does in Studio, because of deals like V4wmas, V4-WM, X&M's Perfect, i13's Overhaul, etc.
Well, since I've been using V4 with X&M's Perfect morphs and some of i13's squish products for some time now, in DAZ Studio, that's not really an issue. True, DS doesn't have access to the weight-mapped figures, but if I need better bending, I'll use my Genesis 2 figures.
RorrKonn posted Wed, 28 October 2015 at 11:08 AM
chaecuna posted at 11:52AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235618
Apparently Smith Micro and DAZ managements are locked into a no holds barred challenge to discover who is going to make the most retarded choices. Smith Micro hit first, with a crippled Cycles, DAZ responded with DRM. I am waiting to see whether Smith Micro will concede defeat or up the game. In the mean time, this weekend I will start an assessment program about the viability of a non-Poser, non-Studio strategy.
If your not going to use DAZ Poser .then what app or app's are you going to replace them with ?
atozed posted at 11:56AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235619
bevans84 posted at 8:22AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235598
In Poser we've come to expect V4 to work much better than it does in Studio, because of deals like V4wmas, V4-WM, X&M's Perfect, i13's Overhaul, etc.
Well, since I've been using V4 with X&M's Perfect morphs and some of i13's squish products for some time now, in DAZ Studio, that's not really an issue. True, DS doesn't have access to the weight-mapped figures, but if I need better bending, I'll use my Genesis 2 figures.
Wait don't DAZ Studio have weight maps n JCM ?
...
As long as they don't start with dongles. I'm good.
Houdini ,SmithMicro MS5,Autodesk ,Adobe All have a something web connection. maybe zBrush also .I don't really care. Some asked if they could monitor how I use there app's .I said sure ,Anything to make the App's better.
but anyways the web connections aren't going away.
so we get use to them or go back to charcoal on cave walls.
but since I use a cell phone n on the web. I no there's no such thing as privacy.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
bevans84 posted Wed, 28 October 2015 at 12:33 PM
atozed posted at 11:23AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235619
Well, since I've been using V4 with X&M's Perfect morphs and some of i13's squish products for some time now, in DAZ Studio, that's not really an issue. True, DS doesn't have access to the weight-mapped figures, but if I need better bending, I'll use my Genesis 2 figures.
IMO, this Smith-Micro - DAZ software war is just silly, especially since it's my opinion that the entire 3d hobby market is shrinking, big time. The winner will be whoever can come up with an application that makes pron figures on a smart phone. :-)
By the way, the best V4 setup for Studio IMO is Erogenesis's Lali. For poser I like V4WM with my favorite Lali morphs.
chaecuna posted Thu, 29 October 2015 at 3:26 AM
RorrKonn posted at 9:10AM Thu, 29 October 2015 - #4235657
If your not going to use DAZ Poser .then what app or app's are you going to replace them with ?
Yesterday I made a checklist and discovered that the thing might be easier than expected: you have to migrate meshes and morphs, materials, rigging and weightmapping.
Materials are simple: e.g. when you have a skin shader, the only difference between a V4 leg and G3F face are texture maps so it is a question of building a texture-based shaders library and you can kiss Firefly/Iray good bye. E.g., see mcjTeleblender which makes a more than decent job at bringing into Blender/Cycles Studio materials.
Meshes are and morphs are just data, if you parse Poser OBJ/CR2/HR2 or Studio DUFs you can mechanically export the lot into standard OBJ files that can go everywhere.
Rigging and weightmappings are certainly the most complex parts but I presume that if you go from Poser/Studio into a more powerful app it will "only" be question of blood, sweat and tears.
Add some (likely much more than some) scripting and... Yippee ki-yay, motherfuckers!
P.S.: software developer by profession. I know what I am talking about and I am enough pissed off about the actions of the lowlives that Ton Roosendaal described in a tweet as "The percentage of marketing specialists who identify themselves as such, but who are idiots - is probably the highest of any profession" to be spurred in action.
wolf359 posted Thu, 29 October 2015 at 9:19 AM
_>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"If your not going to use DAZ Poser .then what app or app's are you going to replace them with ?....... Yesterday I made a checklist and discovered that the thing might be easier than expected: you have to migrate meshes and morphs, materials, rigging and weightmapping............see mcjTeleblender which makes a more than decent job at bringing into Blender/Cycles Studio materials. Meshes are and morphs are just data, if you parse Poser OBJ/CR2/HR2 or Studio DUFs you can mechanically export the lot into standard OBJ files that can go everywhere. Rigging and weightmappings are certainly the most
complex parts but I presume that if you go from Poser/Studio into a more powerful app it will "only" be question of blood, sweat and tears." <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<_
And lets be honest....Money also From the very beginning of my poser usage (Fractal designs poser2) ,I only ever saw poser and later Daz studio as a figure resource for other
programs.
I use the interposer pro plugin with Maxon
Cinema4D to read/load my poser runtimes Directly in Cinema4D for fully functional poser
figures in C4D for rendering of animations.
I use Reallusion's Iclone Pro to create realtime
Character animation DATA to retarget to Daz
Genesis & Pose6& pro 2014figures.
From the Daz/ Genesis Side there is the Export
.obj with textures and MDD out (point level animation Data)
Back in C4D I use the Riptide pro plugin to load obj with textures retained and apply MDD Data to get the Hollow genesis
mesh moving exactly the way he/she was in Iclone with Daz mimic lipsynch & all
....two lazy mouse clicks and that Genesis figure I
open GL animation preview rendered in Daz studio
is ready to render in a pro pipeline in Maxon
Cinema4D
Find a Mistake..Want to make a change??
pop over to DS make the tweak Export new MDD file and apply to waiting mesh in Cinema4D
What about Dynamic Clothing ?? well two options. Create simulation in poser Export Series of object
files.Save animated pose file of the Actor who wears the clothing
I Cinema4D Use interposer pro to import and
Compile the series of files into ONE Animated clothing mesh in C4D Load poser figure apply animated pose file and render poser figure in C4D with dynamic cloth mesh Following exactly.
or use the free script for Daz Studio that acheive the same result for said series of poser obj files in Daz studio
IRay Daz studio ??? Lovely, Smart move guys
but...Yaawn!! Why upgrade My hardware for IRay when there is a
Free Script to send and Convert DAZ scenes to
the FREE Blender for the Occasional PBR still Image I may do from time to time
DAZ is going DRM??? Yaaawwwn!!
As long as I can Export an .obj file I could not care
less about how content is managed within Daz studio itself or poser for that matter. I dont render from those apps
Those programs are merely Figure&Prop
resources for My Actual CG production Application Maxon Cinema4D Studio.
There are many ways to light Europe!!!
chaecuna posted Thu, 29 October 2015 at 10:58 AM
wolf359 posted at 4:48PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - #4235784
As long as I can Export an .obj file I could not care
And this is one of the issues: I am seeing mixed and confused info on the continued availability of exports from future versions of Studio. As it was written by a guy on DAZ forums, a working DRM scheme requires the prevention of export of internal (DRMed) data otherwise you export meshes, shaders, rigs etc, reimport them into a (now non DRM) package and upload it to a torrent site defying the whole issue.
Today I spent a couple of hours prototyping Cycles shaders for G3F and everything is already working decently so I will for the next weeks concentrate on the subject of rendering thru Cycles, removing the dependency on Iray. When I will have something worth being shared I will report about it.
P.S.: the real Cycles, not Poser 2016 "Cycles" (which b.t.w. will likely activation booby trapped replicating the problem).
MistyLaraCarrara posted Thu, 29 October 2015 at 12:13 PM
i'm loving my V4 more than ever after reading the news about daz connect.
i only buy s/w that can run on my non-internet connected pc.
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
wolf359 posted Thu, 29 October 2015 at 1:26 PM
chaecuna posted at 1:21PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - #4235802
wolf359 posted at 4:48PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - #4235784
As long as I can Export an .obj file I could not care
And this is one of the issues: I am seeing mixed and confused info on the continued availability of exports from future versions of Studio. As it was written by a guy on DAZ forums, a working DRM scheme requires the prevention of export of internal (DRMed) data otherwise you export meshes, shaders, rigs etc, reimport them into a (now non DRM) package and upload it to a torrent site defying the whole issue.
Today I spent a couple of hours prototyping Cycles shaders for G3F and everything is already working decently so I will for the next weeks concentrate on the subject of rendering thru Cycles, removing the dependency on Iray. When I will have something worth being shared I will report about it.
P.S.: the real Cycles, not Poser 2016 "Cycles" (which b.t.w. will likely activation booby trapped replicating the problem).
This was asked in the daz forums and the official word from daz was no removal of obj export. Oh and good on you about cycles (real).
bhoins posted Thu, 29 October 2015 at 3:39 PM
MistyLaraPrincess posted at 2:39PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - #4235811
i'm loving my V4 more than ever after reading the news about daz connect.
i only buy s/w that can run on my non-internet connected pc.
DS 4.9 will run on your non-internet connected computer.
RorrKonn posted Thu, 29 October 2015 at 5:39 PM
Since DAZ gives Studio away for free .DAZ isn't worried about the software thief's but the meshes thiefs is another story I'm sure.
the web connections n subscriptions etc etc is the latest thief prevention idea. if it works as bad as dongles ... I'm sure DAZ is looking in to anti meshes thief prevention.
I like Blender ,Love the Price. the built in sculptor is wicked. I Love C4D ,Hate the price. I'm going to Houdini Indie.
Guess you know about Poser Fussion for LW,C4D,Max,Maya
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
chaecuna posted Fri, 30 October 2015 at 1:08 AM
DAZ will sometime realize the mistake that they are doing but, taking lesson from the one-mesh-that-does-not-fit-well-all (aka G1) saga, it will take at least 2 years of stubborn head kicking in the wall to make pointy hair bosses, marketdroids and bean counters to admit their mistakes, swallow their pride (aka arrogance) and go back to a more user friendly behaviour.
In the mean time, for this long and cold Westeros winter, I will follow wolf359 wise strategy: get everything possible for G2F/M (which b.t.w. can use V4/M4 textures), backup 4.8, learn to create content for 4.8 and, this is my addition, offload as much as possible work to Blender.
Zev0 posted Fri, 30 October 2015 at 5:38 AM
4.9 is no different that 4.8 in terms of content creation and editing. Only difference is eventually content sold at Daz's site will have Drm protection. Does not affect older content or new content created or sold elsewhere while using 4.9 since you can still use them via your content library. They might not show in smart content via Daz connect though unless you add metadata etc. EG I am in 4.9. I can still use everything the exact same. Only difference is 4.9 is much faster and stable regarding Iray and 3dL. So in a nutshell, content creation in 4.8 and 4.9 is no different. Also a lot of people are making assumptions when the drm content isn't even out yet. Again, it does not affect content sold elsewhere but only new content at Daz that will use it.
Zev0 posted Fri, 30 October 2015 at 6:10 AM
However this current 4.9 beta is a public build, and isn't recommended for content development. You will have to wait for a Publishing build, or just wait for the actual 4.9 release, or stay with 4.8 if you want. However Iray engine has changed in 4.9 so it won't look the same if content was created in 4.8, specially on skin regarding Iray.
Goldenthrush posted Fri, 30 October 2015 at 5:24 PM
I've no reason to walk off from V4, anymore than I have to abandon Jessie, V3, or Posette. The people who spent time making perfections for those characters did a great job, so, really, why do I even need a "new" figure? I don't particularly care to continually purchase the same things over and over again, and certainly won't purchase any "new" figure because face it -- not one of those new figures can do one thing more than the existing characters. Being "new" just doesn't cut it for me.
shedofjoy posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 5:26 AM
I do not understand the whole dump V4 and get genesis thing,V4 does everything I need, all I see genesis doing is reducing my bank account and adding more clothes etc and doing renders that I could have done with V4. I have noticed of late that the renderosity market place is now geared towards Genesis, this does sadden me, but that's commercialism. I may one day get Genesis but for now V4 does exactly what I want, along with A3.
Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.
-Timberwolf- posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 6:10 AM
ProjectE looks like being the future of Poser figures right now. Let's see, what SM unveils as their next figure release. V4? yes, dump her. You can make that old Lady pretty, but you cannot pose her without breaking her. I don't want to spent houres of postwork to make a pose look natural. Give that old Lady a rest. salute ;)
Male_M3dia posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 6:51 AM
-Timberwolf- posted at 7:45AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4236127
ProjectE looks like being the future of Poser figures right now. Let's see, what SM unveils as their next figure release. V4? yes, dump her. You can make that old Lady pretty, but you cannot pose her without breaking her. I don't want to spent houres of postwork to make a pose look natural. Give that old Lady a rest. salute ;)
If you missed the postings right now Project E is actually a subdivided V4 with JCMs... and that is straight from the creator himself from a thread in this forum. It would need a new mesh to start from or a cr2 that references V4 and injects new rigging. I'm not sure how everyone keeps missing that detail. It can't be sold as is, and whatever store that sells it better check the mesh before they release it or it will be the shortest sale ever before the lawyers show up. It would end up having the same impact as RDNA's Eva did when it got released and pulled when it was found out it nicked some of Vickie's mesh as well.
-Timberwolf- posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 7:09 AM
"Project E is actually a subdivided V4 with JCMs" Yes, maybe I missed that part. That could mean, that PE would never be published, because of EULA issues, which would be a big, big bummer. I was really looking foreward to release. I didn't say V4's mesh is bad either. I just think, that posing her with that old Poser4 rigging techologie doesn't give satisfieing results. V4WM is an improvement for sure, but not enough. Ero added, what was missing, to really make her usefull - As far as I can tell from the pictures. I really hope ProjectE will see the light of day. I am going to be quick to get her, just in case DAZ lawyers become active ;)
jonnybode posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 10:32 AM
@Male_M3dia Can you show me the post that says that "Project E is a subdivided V4"?
I was under the impression that it is a new mesh, thats what it says on the creators homepage.
ssgbryan posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 10:40 AM
-Timberwolf- posted at 9:37AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4236137
"Project E is actually a subdivided V4 with JCMs" Yes, maybe I missed that part. That could mean, that PE would never be published, because of EULA issues, which would be a big, big bummer. I was really looking foreward to release. I didn't say V4's mesh is bad either. I just think, that posing her with that old Poser4 rigging techologie doesn't give satisfieing results. V4WM is an improvement for sure, but not enough. Ero added, what was missing, to really make her usefull - As far as I can tell from the pictures. I really hope ProjectE will see the light of day. I am going to be quick to get her, just in case DAZ lawyers become active ;)
No, it isn't a subD V4. It is a new mesh. Go visit Ero's blog and you can see the development from the beginning.
RorrKonn posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 11:42 AM
Erogenesis Lali's Bits was customized V4 .Project E is Erogenesis mesh
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
Male_M3dia posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 12:26 PM
ssgbryan posted at 1:18PM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4236171
-Timberwolf- posted at 9:37AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4236137
"Project E is actually a subdivided V4 with JCMs" Yes, maybe I missed that part. That could mean, that PE would never be published, because of EULA issues, which would be a big, big bummer. I was really looking foreward to release. I didn't say V4's mesh is bad either. I just think, that posing her with that old Poser4 rigging techologie doesn't give satisfieing results. V4WM is an improvement for sure, but not enough. Ero added, what was missing, to really make her usefull - As far as I can tell from the pictures. I really hope ProjectE will see the light of day. I am going to be quick to get her, just in case DAZ lawyers become active ;)
No, it isn't a subD V4. It is a new mesh. Go visit Ero's blog and you can see the development from the beginning.
No it isn't a new mesh, check the forum here where he said as much and when someone mentioned that DAZ would have a problem with it, he basically said "good luck finding him in africa" which is troubling to say the least for a vendor to say. The v4 clothes fit and the textures work well with it because it is V4. Everyone that knows meshes knows that it's V4, so that blog is inaccurate at best. Given that admission, any store that takes it better check the product with a fine tooth comb before it hits the store to make sure that it is indeed a new mesh.
Nagra_00_ posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 1:18 PM
The posting you refer to was about the rigging and NOT about the mesh.
Goldenthrush posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 2:11 PM
-Timberwolf- posted at 2:07PM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4236127
ProjectE looks like being the future of Poser figures right now. Let's see, what SM unveils as their next figure release. V4? yes, dump her. You can make that old Lady pretty, but you cannot pose her without breaking her. I don't want to spent houres of postwork to make a pose look natural. Give that old Lady a rest. salute ;)
Good grief, what sort of poses are you using if you've got to post work her every time you use her? O.O I don't even have that much trouble with the Mil Teens!
Even if Project E is the 'future' -- the likelihood of me using it is very slim (Unless she's pretty out of the box and doesn't look like Victoria). I don't need to keep buying the same darn things over and over again.
Edit: Oh! Project E is pretty! I'd be glad to add her into the virtual box of dolls. But as for replacing? I use Sp3 more than anything. :D
RorrKonn posted Sat, 31 October 2015 at 6:55 PM
Project E n V4 does not have the same topology
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
chaecuna posted Sun, 01 November 2015 at 5:40 AM
@wolf359 and @RonnKorr:
Just a feasibility study: G2F, with Bree textures (the ones in the starter pack) with ultra-preliminary Cycles shaders. The first step (i.e. kissing bye bye to FireFly/3delight/Iray) seems easier that what I had imagined.
RorrKonn posted Sun, 01 November 2015 at 10:00 AM
I haven't played with Blenders new Cycles. They look fun thou. :)
There might be some kind of a BlenderPoserDAZFussion something like Blenders GoB to speed up the exports.
You might want to play with Blenders dynamic hair n cloths.
RorrKonn
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
erogenesis posted Tue, 03 November 2015 at 10:35 AM
Male_M3dia posted at 6:39PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - #4236133
If you missed the postings right now Project E is actually a subdivided V4 with JCMs... and that is straight from the creator himself from a thread in this forum.
nein! nein! nein!
lol
no its an entirely new mesh. Must be a miscomm. She momentarily has the same topology as V4 (shape, not the same mesh). The test model does have the V4 head temporarily attached but that was from back in 2014 when I needed to make sure my characters would stay in tact. Now things are different and I can implement my own head mesh, which is more detailed.
... ok now to reply to the other comments.
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
erogenesis posted Tue, 03 November 2015 at 10:51 AM
jonnybode posted at 6:42PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - #4236170
I was under the impression that it is a new mesh, thats what it says on the creators homepage.
yep new mesh
RorrKonn posted at 6:43PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - #4236181
Erogenesis Lali's Bits was customized V4 .Project E is Erogenesis mesh
yep!
Goldenthrush posted at 6:44PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - #4236215
Even if Project E is the 'future' -- the likelihood of me using it is very slim (Unless she's pretty out of the box and doesn't look like Victoria). I don't need to keep buying the same darn things over and over again.
Edit: Oh! Project E is pretty! I'd be glad to add her into the virtual box of dolls. But as for replacing? I use Sp3 more than anything. :D
Whatever works. The base mesh of PE is purely flat and functional, that's why I never show it. It has no shape whatsoever, the defining shapes come out of the FBMs, not the base figure. I do hope to release the base package (different from base mesh) for free, so that you can see the potential. It is however, very tailored to my preferences, and I'm a weird and complicated artist lol!
RorrKonn posted at 6:46PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - #4236244
Project E n V4 does not have the same topology
It does for now, but upon release it won't, or DAZ will kill me!
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
RorrKonn posted Tue, 03 November 2015 at 11:44 AM
I think where having miscommunications.
the mesh is the line you see in wireframe. topology flow is how the lines flow.
V3,4,5,6,7 all have a mesh but they all have different topology. but they can all have the same shape.
so shape ,topology ,mesh are 3 different things.
what I can see of your wire frame of projectE on your blog does not have the same topology as V4.
but
projectE can not have any part of V4 mesh ,topology ,names ,uvmaps ,rigs. etc etc.in it or DAZ will shut you down.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
RorrKonn posted Tue, 03 November 2015 at 11:55 AM
If you made projectE from a cube. then it's your character and you have the right to say what happens to the character.
but
If projectE is just a very customized V4. then it's still a DAZ character and DAZ has the right to say what happens to the character and I doubt they will let you sell it. Maybe with some kind of partnership.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
chaecuna posted Tue, 03 November 2015 at 12:43 PM
RorrKonn posted at 7:39PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - #4236695
Maybe with some kind of partnership.
When Hell will experience next glaciation. If there is even a single vertex/edge/face/UV coordinate which can be traced back to V4, Project E is dead since it will take only a letter from DAZ lawyer threatening legal action to have any e-shop in the US/Europe/Japan to drop it and third party products for it, immediately.
RorrKonn posted Tue, 03 November 2015 at 7:54 PM
I don't know if projectE is erogenesis cube or not.
and at
At https://www.cgtrader.com/xiaoxunyue2014
Months a go I pointed out that xiaoxunyue2014 took a DAZ character and SubDed the mesh to polycount 200.000+ They removed the wireframe .jpgs but not the character.
So I can only guess that xiaoxunyue2014 n DAZ have some kind of deal.
Any other time I pointed out a DAZ mesh being sold by a third party ,it has been promptly removed.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
chaecuna posted Tue, 03 November 2015 at 8:45 PM
CGTrader is in Lithuania; is this enough for an explanation?
erogenesis posted Wed, 04 November 2015 at 12:51 AM
RorrKonn posted at 8:39AM Wed, 04 November 2015 - #4236695
If you made projectE from a cube. then it's your character and you have the right to say what happens to the character.
but
If projectE is just a very customized V4. then it's still a DAZ character and DAZ has the right to say what happens to the character and I doubt they will let you sell it. Maybe with some kind of partnership.
PE was made from a plane even haha.
Regarding DAZ, the only thing I could get into trouble for is using V4's joint centers and using V4's UV maps in the 'V4 version'. I haven't had time to sort this out but I will when I resume the development. Chances are DAZ will just say no and then it will be very easy to just change the joint centers around a bit. With Poser's fitting tech (hopefully improved) it should be easy to retrofit V4 stuff to her again. And the V4 maps, well, that would just be a shame for all those users that have invested all that money in V4 items.
To be honest these days I think its time to depart from DAZ's way of doing things because those guys are enjoying too much control over the 3D figure art scene. Monopoly is never good.
Anyway, let's first see what P11 has in store for us!
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
RorrKonn posted Wed, 04 November 2015 at 2:11 AM
chaecuna posted at 3:04AM Wed, 04 November 2015 - #4236792
CGTrader is in Lithuania; is this enough for an explanation?
Crystal Clear
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
RorrKonn posted Wed, 04 November 2015 at 2:44 AM
erogenesis I very very really strongly advise not to use any DAZ any thing in projectE. Cause if there's a DAZ anything in it ,that makes projectE DAZ Property and leaves you with nothing.
Maybe down the road PhilC could make a texture converter or something.
Aeon Soul is leaving RDNA and going to DAZ. They have never worked together before.Aeon Soul has always been to sexy .DAZ has changed a lot n a lot more then there sexy policies. I think DAZ went to public stock market or got a new boss or something .
DAZ might have a monopoly but only cause there the only ones playing the game. V5 was the first mesh out of DAZ I would have even used.I think V7 is the first actual 100% quad mesh.99% of all content sold is not even = to 2015 game meshes.There Empier depends a lot on third partys.DAZ Poser is a very small part of the CGI Realms. Empiers rise n fall .In my life time I saw truespace,softimage fall & the great n mighty USSR Fall.They where a hell of a lot bigger then DAZ could even dream.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
chaecuna posted Wed, 04 November 2015 at 4:59 AM
Dear erogenesis, you are fatally underestimating the danger posed by Project E V4 roots. What you will release will be put under close examination by DAZ technicians and lawyers. If anything, even the smallest thing, can be shown related to DAZ IP, they will fall on you and on anybody dealing with Project E like a mountain of bricks. Some DMCA take down notices and no e-shop and no third party will touch Project E, even with a 10 meter long pole.
If this is just a hobby of yours, no problem, but if you plan any commercial effort, be very careful. Between a black mamba and a lawyer, I would, without hesitation, choose the black mamba.
Razor42 posted Wed, 04 November 2015 at 6:30 AM
You may also want to look at what a derivative work is.
Razor42 posted Wed, 04 November 2015 at 6:59 AM
She is looking rather nice though :)
3DFineries posted Wed, 04 November 2015 at 7:13 AM
I honestly don't care if ProjectE can or can not use V4's textures as long as I can convert the clothing, I'd be a happy camper. 
ProjectE is definitely a figure I would "jump ship" for.... I love V4 so I am sure I will still find uses for her if and when I jump ship. 
With that said, Euro, I shall quote another "Shut up & take my money!" :heart_tip:
Have a creative day!
********
adh3d posted Sun, 24 January 2016 at 8:29 PM
Zev0 posted at 10:22PM Sun, 24 January 2016 - #4234508
Poser isn't dead. You cannot kill an app. However, lack of AAA content support can eventually seal it's fate in terms of user growth and future development for it. Also at the time Daz made Dson, Poser was part of its plans. However that is no longer the case as Genesis 3 is no longer Poser compatible. So yeah, SM needs to stand on their own two feet now. The company that kept them going with content support is on a different path, and by the looks of it, so are all the mainstream stores. So, there is a difference in opinion and fact adh3d. Fact is, Poser support is on the decrease. The question is, what can SM do to change that?
Daz made Dson because they notice, very late, that they are loosing Poser users with their new "only for DS" policy, this is a fact, not an opinion, if not, why a company make an "only DS" figure, and after make a "botched job" to give that figure a use inside Poser. They tried to get the entire cake, the content and software pieces, they tried and they are trying , if they get the entire cake one day, that they would be a wrong day for people who made art using poser or Ds.
There is world beyond DAZ3d, they are great, but they are not the only one.
Razor42 posted Mon, 25 January 2016 at 7:32 AM
adh3d posted at 12:18AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - #4251087
Zev0 posted at 10:22PM Sun, 24 January 2016 - #4234508
Poser isn't dead. You cannot kill an app. However, lack of AAA content support can eventually seal it's fate in terms of user growth and future development for it. Also at the time Daz made Dson, Poser was part of its plans. However that is no longer the case as Genesis 3 is no longer Poser compatible. So yeah, SM needs to stand on their own two feet now. The company that kept them going with content support is on a different path, and by the looks of it, so are all the mainstream stores. So, there is a difference in opinion and fact adh3d. Fact is, Poser support is on the decrease. The question is, what can SM do to change that?
Daz made Dson because they notice, very late, that they are losing Poser users with their new "only for DS" policy, this is a fact, not an opinion, if not, why a company make an "only DS" figure, and after make a "botched job" to give that figure a use inside Poser. They tried to get the entire cake, the content and software pieces, they tried and they are trying , if they get the entire cake one day, that they would be a wrong day for people who made art using poser or Ds.
There is world beyond DAZ3d, they are great, but they are not the only one.
You mean like back when Poser had the whole cake for ten years before DS's development?... Guess they were also a "wrong day for people who made art using poser"?
RorrKonn posted Tue, 26 January 2016 at 1:34 AM
I don't know or care other then I just want it to work . Is your all's Pandora just stopping a lot for no reason. It's aggravating when are tech don't work.
============================================================
The
Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance
EldritchCellar posted Tue, 26 January 2016 at 2:47 AM
I find that all of the tech works fine for my purposes. V4? She's a nice pre Poser 9 tech model, ton of junk to slap on her. There's a weight mapped one too. More freckled pug faced sex kitten "packs" then you can shake a yearly Poser allowance at.
End of story.
I guess if your only dealio is rendering pre made figures that you've invested alot of money in and her ass crack doesn't look right and her ass crack is real important for your particular pre fab pastiche artistic statement and you don't have the initiative or desire or artistic inclination to fix it yourself (any number of ways) then "sorry for the busted ass issue, it's Posers fault" might work. People are generally forgiving for such transgressive behaviors in Poser galleries I think; Bravo.
End of story.
W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD
Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5
My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG
chaecuna posted Tue, 26 January 2016 at 3:56 AM
With the recent events in DAZ-land, it is becoming time to go back to V4/M4.
wolf359 posted Tue, 26 January 2016 at 8:55 AM
"With the recent events in DAZ-land, it is becoming time to go back to V4/M4."
Not likely.. ..any one wanting to avoid the Daz Connect Encryption ,going forward, has many options that do NOT involve returning to a ten year old figure
Options such as Buying your genesis products from other stores like the ever growing catalogs right here at rendersosity&Runtime DNA
Using your existing Content that you bought before the new encrypted content arrived on the market. (after all, the new stuff is just a rehash of the old according the partisams here anyway .)
The Older stuff you purchased will remain unencrypted and stored that way in your Daz account in perpetuity
Become a merchant yourself and make and sell your own products with the "no draconian encryption" as a marketing optic.
Calm yourselves Life& rendering will go on.
false1 posted Tue, 26 January 2016 at 9:39 AM
EldritchCellar posted at 10:35AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - #4251254
I find that all of the tech works fine for my purposes. V4? She's a nice pre Poser 9 tech model, ton of junk to slap on her. There's a weight mapped one too. More freckled pug faced sex kitten "packs" then you can shake a yearly Poser allowance at.
End of story.
I guess if your only dealio is rendering pre made figures that you've invested alot of money in and her ass crack doesn't look right and her ass crack is real important for your particular pre fab pastiche artistic statement and you don't have the initiative or desire or artistic inclination to fix it yourself (any number of ways) then "sorry for the busted ass issue, it's Posers fault" might work. People are generally forgiving for such transgressive behaviors in Poser galleries I think; Bravo.
End of story.
Whoah, that's harsh. Funny but harsh.
BTW, it's not the ass crack, it's the elbows. G3F has pointy elbows. If you can't tell Vicky's ass from her elbow then just don't post, lol.
________________________________
ssgbryan posted Tue, 26 January 2016 at 12:53 PM
Razor42 posted at 10:20AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - #4251134
adh3d posted at 12:18AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - #4251087
Zev0 posted at 10:22PM Sun, 24 January 2016 - #4234508
Poser isn't dead. You cannot kill an app. However, lack of AAA content support can eventually seal it's fate in terms of user growth and future development for it. Also at the time Daz made Dson, Poser was part of its plans. However that is no longer the case as Genesis 3 is no longer Poser compatible. So yeah, SM needs to stand on their own two feet now. The company that kept them going with content support is on a different path, and by the looks of it, so are all the mainstream stores. So, there is a difference in opinion and fact adh3d. Fact is, Poser support is on the decrease. The question is, what can SM do to change that?
Daz made Dson because they notice, very late, that they are losing Poser users with their new "only for DS" policy, this is a fact, not an opinion, if not, why a company make an "only DS" figure, and after make a "botched job" to give that figure a use inside Poser. They tried to get the entire cake, the content and software pieces, they tried and they are trying , if they get the entire cake one day, that they would be a wrong day for people who made art using poser or Ds.
There is world beyond DAZ3d, they are great, but they are not the only one.
You mean like back when Poser had the whole cake for ten years before DS's development?... Guess they were also a "wrong day for people who made art using poser"?
If you had been around back then, you would know that DAZ (the company) was established for the purpose of making content for Poser.
EldritchCellar posted Tue, 26 January 2016 at 1:26 PM
"If you can't tell Vicky's ass from her elbow then just don't post, lol."
Ok. No I can't tell, your'e right. I'm obviously not skilled enough or knowledgable enough about art or Poser or modeling to stand in the shadow of a giant such as yourself. No more technical advice or opinion commentary from myself on the forum, as you wish. Happy shopping. :)
W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD
Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5
My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG
Boni posted Tue, 26 January 2016 at 3:55 PM
Ok, guys ... this is getting out of hand. We are all invested in whatever figures we want. We needn't depend on other people's opinions as to whether we should use one over another. And the discussion is becoming very much in poor taste to boot. This is not constructive and I am locking it. Sorry guys.
Boni
"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork
