Why didn't you just add a spoon to the picture Razor?. I am not sure how long this thread will last but for the record in the real world I would go for v6 then once rejected v7 once rejected I have another crack at v6 I don't give up easy. But this would require it's own thread. Although these are probably early images and we don't even know if finals there is work to be done and they are base figures. But I would also add Genesis 2 was only perfected by what the vendors managed to achieve IMO a great content creator hits the tools on any of these it is open season. Any could come up a winner

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

LPR001 posted at 2:05PM Wed, 04 November 2015 - #4236794

Why didn't you just add a spoon to the picture Razor?. I am not sure how long this thread will last but for the record in the real world I would go for v6 then once rejected v7 once rejected I have another crack at v6 I don't give up easy. But this would require it's own thread. Although these are probably early images and we don't even know if finals there is work to be done and they are base figures. But I would also add Genesis 2 was only perfected by what the vendors managed to achieve IMO a great content creator hits the tools on any of these it is open season. Any could come up a winner

Very true, but generally great content creators are attracted to an appealing base which has a good customer demand. First market impressions are very important for a new figure, so if these are just WIP's they still lay a first impression with the customers and vendor base which is valid. From what I can tell the figure appears to be in Beta mode (If not further along) so I would be surprised to see massive change to at least the base figure look. V4 wasn't successful because she was born perfect she was successful because of widespread appeal and adoption. The same with the Genesis Series in my experience. Is there really any need for a spoon?

hmmmmmmmmm I will go walk the dog

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

If that is what Pauline is going to look like I will pass.

Back when I saw her first, out of the box V4 made me cringe. What mattered was much malleable was for content developers. Before saying anything about Pauline, I wait for clay/wire/UV test pattern renders and UV layout(s).

P.S.: my spider senses are tingling. I sense nervousness. What's the matter? DAZ sales are not "positively" affected by the DRM related news?

It's to earley to really tell. Right now, she looks to male. Typical SM-mistake. Look at her chin shifted to the front. That's all fixable with some morphings. What would be again a mess, is if her expressions looked bad. Except Miki1020 and Miki2, there has never been a "in house figure" , with acceptable useable expressions. From those few pics,I would say, she'd never be a G2F or G3F killer.

chaecuna posted at 7:10PM Wed, 04 November 2015 - #4236822

Back when I saw her first, out of the box V4 made me cringe. What mattered was much malleable was for content developers. Before saying anything about Pauline, I wait for clay/wire/UV test pattern renders and UV layout(s).

P.S.: my spider senses are tingling. I sense nervousness. What's the matter? DAZ sales are not "positively" affected by the DRM related news?

Lol, I think you're mistaking innate curiosity for nervousness. There is plenty of room in the market for a strong Poser figure, if one can be delivered by SM.

And you're right the details are scarce about the internal mechanics of Pauline at this this point (Mesh,rigging,supportability,usability,etc). As also are renders of her bending or with an actual expression on her face.

As I said it's very early days for Pauline, but if preview renders are ready for show and tell. Inevitably opinions will begin to be formed.

Was there DAZ DRM related news? I hadn't noticed tbh ;)

-Timberwolf- posted at 10:43PM Wed, 04 November 2015 - #4236830

It's to earley to really tell. Right now, she looks to male. Typical SM-mistake. Look at her chin shifted to the front. That's all fixable with some morphings. What would be again a mess, is if her expressions looked bad. Except Miki1020 and Miki2, there has never been a "in house figure" , with acceptable useable expressions. From those few pics,I would say, she'd never be a G2F or G3F killer.

Too male LOL If you squint she looks like Mel Gibson after a night out on the town. Agree on the Miki figures I didn't mind those at all they are a couple of great characters. Whatever happens SM needs a new character base.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

Strictly speaking, Pauline isn't competing against V7, she is competing against G3. You are comparing a base (Pauline) to a highly refined morph (V7) of a base (G3) Nitpicking ;) But it's all in the eyes of the beholder, personally I find G3 and the entire line (except Bethany) to be highly unattractive.

Here's a side-by-side comparison of G3 and a slightly modified Pauline.

edit: picture yanked from a thread at RDNA, can't figure out how to link pictures in this damned forum software grrr

That looks better, they should throw those other images out! LOL

Being one who has no 3D loyalties (Daz to Poser to Carrara to Poser to currently Daz w/iClone to fill the animate/dynamic gaps)....

Seems a good figure, but without some type of auto-clothing conversion technology...I can't see it's adoption. Dawn is a good figure as well, and even with access to all of the Genesis and V4 stuff through Clones...she struggles to make her mark. Folks are too spoiled with Clone and auto-fit to use utilities to convert massive runtimes.

Instead of gunning for vendors to "start" making stuff (which I agree is also needed), at this point you need to be able to "auto-poach" everything that is made, and continue to do so. Us vendors won't care, as a sale is a sale, no matter who wears it. :) That, along with the Poser loyalists, may re-invigorate the line, which I would be glad to see! :)

I hate to see one company start to corner the market. It's bad for consumers! ;-)

DreaminGirl posted at 5:09PM Wed, 04 November 2015 - #4236860

Strictly speaking, Pauline isn't competing against V7, she is competing against G3. You are comparing a base (Pauline) to a highly refined morph (V7) of a base (G3) Nitpicking ;) But it's all in the eyes of the beholder, personally I find G3 and the entire line (except Bethany) to be highly unattractive.

Here's a side-by-side comparison of G3 and a slightly modified Pauline.

edit: picture yanked from a thread at RDNA, can't figure out how to link pictures in this damned forum software grrr

Personally I would take the GF3 figure any day and I've never loved any Daz figures out of the box, but the Pauline one look odds the eyes seem to be a bit off I'm not sure why and the lips need a peak, the skin looks awful grainy and bumpy.

@tparo: as I said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)

@3doutlaw: The fitting room already does a good job of converting clothes, but it wouldn't hurt with improvements in that area ;)

Yep, agreed, I've seen "fitting room" demos, and I am sure it does a good job, if you invest the time...but once you get used to clones, auto-fit and the collision/smoothing modifier running, just watching the "Poser Pro 2014's new Fitting Room" demo's on YouTube is painful.

Anyway, I hope the new version is revolutionary! It will push both SM and Daz to new heights, if so.

I always wonder why why they don't start with targeting a computer-based calculated Attractive face based on common characteristics, and go from there. Would make a nice base figure, and give vendors a easy starting point. Beautiful Face by Characteristics

Pauline's eyes look sleepy ;)

Still waiting on bend previews. I don't care about the face really. I want to see how the character is rigged and how it reacts to posing.

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"Strictly speaking" Pauline is competing against all figures and there morphs, not just V7. Also as G3 is an entirely free resource including the supporting app, a direct comparison between the two would not really be realistic/fair. The buy-in price will be considerably higher for Pauline (Base or otherwise) if the usual SM figure sales points are implemented for her release putting her more as a direct competitor to V7. You could also describe the G3 Base as the lite version of the figure and V7 with full morph suite the full version of the figure. Really V7 was the flag bearer and was the first thing most people seen of G3.

You could also say that it's like buying a games console while the base console is important and lays a foundation, the content is ultimately what persuades an investment to be made by the consumer. And when you release or preview your bright shiny new machine to the market sharks, you better have some awesome content ready to get jaws dropping. It's always harder to sell something based on promises of what is coming soon for it. We seem to be being "Told" she will be beautiful when she is morphed and properly textured. I prefer to be shown, as telling generally adds up to just being marketing spin in a lot of cases.

For a base figure you want nondescript or plain, ugly or weird looking is always going to be harder to morph to beautiful. The base is the gene pool for the figure while radical morphs are possible generally the base is still there to a degree. In the side by side you have added I really wouldn't know where to start critiquing the Pauline portrait as my eye is immediately drawn to a number of er... anomalies.

Still waiting on previews of Bends, Mesh, Rigging, Compatibility also.

Yeah, but I wasn't terribly impressed with G3F at first glance, either. JPayne has gotten some beautiful results out of her, but I'm still waiting to be impressed by most of what I see done with her. G2F right out of the box looks pretty good, but not G3F -- I don't know this for certain (it's one of those things I meant to look into and never got around to doing), but I've wondered if G2F and G3F were created by two different artists or sets of artists, they're so different-looking from each other. I do have to admit, tho', that I think pretty much all of the Poser people to date are ghastly-looking things -- clunky knees, elbows, and shoulders, and I can't look them in the face for very long. If this IS a new Poser person, it's definitely an improvement. Give her to someone like Blackhearted and see what he can do with her.

The figure bases were created by the same person. Also do not confuse a figure base to a character. G2F & G3F are figure base platforms, generic, no special features ie blank canvas, no name. V7 or V6 are characters built on those bases, and characters are developed by different artists. The question is, what is Pauline? Is she a generic figure base platform or a character?

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Zev0 posted at 3:32PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4236978

Also do not confuse a figure base to a character. G2F & G3F are figure base platforms, generic, no special features ie blank canvas, no name. V7 or V6 are characters built on those bases, and characters are developed by different artists. The question is, what is Pauline? Is she a generic figure base platform or a character?

Not to take away from your point which is entirely correct,

But to be honest the "Base & Character" concept always confused me a little, not that I don't understand the reference but well really just the terminology of it seems to have issues, making defining what either is clearly as difficult.

It reminds me of the question, if you have a boat and each year you replace parts of it until eventually none of the original boat exists. Do you have a new boat or is it still the same boat you started with?

In the same way how much of a "Base" figure needs to change to be considered as something different (or a base.2 if you like), if I build a new mesh shape as a morph, adjust and modify the rigging, build new JCM's, new UV's, textures, etc, etc. How much needs to change to make it a new base or an extension of the base as opposed to a character? Especially if the intention is to provide a new platform for people to begin building, from, or on top off. Or is it always a character if some of the original base figure exists in its genes?

Or maybe it's consistent to the character being reliant on the base, as V7 needs G3F (The Base) to function. A descendent "character" would be able to make use of the original "base" morphs to alter the character with the ancestor genes of the figure. But then if I build a character that needs both G3 and V7. Using V7 as part of the base by using V7 UV's etc. Which makes this new character not only reliant on G3F but also V7. How does that leave V7 as just another character and not also as part of the base figure in itself (At least in reference to the new character that needs both). Are things like body and head morph packs characters or extensions of the base? Considering that is V7 a character or also an extension of the G3F base, if people build from V7 to create descendents from her?

Or is the terminology "Base figure" just referring to the bare bones figure released. Which if that's the case means Pauline whether dial spun from base morphs included, the static mesh or a unique character morph, as long as it's all released together still a figure base?

Maybe I'm just rambling :D, Sometimes I think I'm just smart enough to thoroughly confuse myself

Zev0 posted at 9:48PM Wed, 04 November 2015 - #4236978

The figure bases were created by the same person. Also do not confuse a figure base to a character. G2F & G3F are figure base platforms, generic, no special features ie blank canvas, no name. V7 or V6 are characters built on those bases, and characters are developed by different artists. The question is, what is Pauline? Is she a generic figure base platform or a character?

So who's confusing base figures? I -- and I assume most people reading this thread -- already KNOW that G2F and G3F are base figures, and after reading the thread over at RDNA, it looks like Paulette is a base figure, too. I simply said that G2F and G3F look different enough that they could have been developed by different artists or different teams of artists. G2F is much more realistic-looking right out of the box (so to speak), while G3F looks even blander and less appealing than the original Genesis did. At first glance, the only visual improvement she had (aside from a couple of extra joints in the upper chest and neck) was that her throat and the top of her feet are a little more natural-looking. I know JPayne is not using a stock G3F for his artwork, but worked-up copy of V7, and he's getting 'way better results out of her than just about anyone else I see using her. I see a lot of renders of V7 where her skin look less like actual human skin (certainly less V6's skin did) and more like a slightly-deflated ballon or mylar bag, with an odd crinkly look to it.

I'm not a big fan of the previous Poser people, and while I'm not exactly blown away by the couple of images I've seen of Paulette, I've also seen worse (much, much worse) and it would nice to have Poser figure I could really get behind.

When creating a Pose from scratch the differences between G2 and G3 are quite large in their realism and ability to bend accurately.

while G3F looks even blander and less appealing than the original Genesis did.

Really ?

I think it's safe to say at this point Pauline won't be worse than previous Poser figures... and definitely better than Posette...

Razor42 posted at 8:14AM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4236991 "and definitely better than Posette..."

You've done it now! the posette crowd will not like that. LOL

regards
prixat

She'll fail unless they give her a DAZ3D level of support, and by that I mean hire a pile of the top vendors to make a ton of content for her, buy it off them and release it over the first couple of months of the figures launch, if it sells well then that will give them and the vendors all the encouragement the need to carry on supporting her.

Lol Daz3D level of support is a huge operation that I do not think SM is capable of doing. Daz spent years getting that structure in place. SM have never given developers the confidence to support their figures. If they were we would have seen evidence of this already in the past. The only encouragement vendors need is revenue. If a figure can keep bringing it in, they will continue to support it. Dawn couldn't do that, hense the rapid drop in support. Honestly I don't see how Pauline or Paul will interest developers who are already on the Genesis train. Most likely, support for her will come from non Daz vendors or those who are anti Genesis.

At best, she will have the same level of support as Dawn, but I honestly just don't see her on the commercial stage taking on the G series. In order for that to happen, every single Poser user must have the latest version of Poser as a requirement for starters, and chances of that happening are slim. Until that happens, the amount of users who will have her will be a tiny fraction of the user base, and nobody wants to support a figure that only caters to a fraction of the market, because they will only be getting a fraction of revenue compared to the bigger commercial platforms. So unless every Poser user can use these new figures the same way every Daz user can use Genesis, the growth regarding the new figures will be extremely slow, and won't really stand a chance in gaining traction at the rate of the grey blob:)

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_ I simply said that G2F and G3F look different enough that they could have been developed by different artists_

Again I disagree. G3 with G2 clone (which it comes with) matches G2 identically in appearance. G3 base shape is just a cleaner slate to develop on. And all of these created by the same person. That's the beauty of the platform. Choice.....So does G2 look different to G3? Yes, but not to the extreme to say its from a different artist. With one dial I can make it exactly the same:)

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And here is a line up of all 3 base female shapes. G1 on left G2 middle G3 right. G3 blander than G1? Ummmm no.

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Zev0 posted at 4:45AM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4237011

So does G2 look different to G3? Yes, but not to the extreme to say its from a different artist.

I never said that it WAS from a different artist -- I said it looked like it COULD be from a different artist, which was definitely my impression when I first loaded her up in DS. Two very different statements. You may not like me, dude, but don't twist my words.

I don't think it's personal Morpheon. Just two artists disagreeing about which brush fibers are best :)

But I would have to say I'm with Zev0 on this one, G3F base looks like an evolution of the base mesh from G2F not something totally different IMO. You did make a few rather large calls, and of course they are your opinion and you're entitled to them. But I wouldn't expect others not to disagree.

Morpheon posted at 4:05PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4237020

Zev0 posted at 4:45AM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4237011

So does G2 look different to G3? Yes, but not to the extreme to say its from a different artist.

I never said that it WAS from a different artist -- I said it looked like it COULD be from a different artist, which was definitely my impression when I first loaded her up in DS. Two very different statements. You may not like me, dude, but don't twist my words.

Lol dude I have no reason to dislike anybody, unless they are a real jackass:) So far, I have not classified you as one so we are all good:) We are just having a debate that's all:)

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Okay guys and girls be friendly It is bad enough in the Daz forum to be beating up on poor Pauline don't start up on each other please. Keep it sweet.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

Oh there are new pics of Paulines feet if anybody is interested.

My Renderosity Store

Razor42 posted at 5:20AM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4237022

I don't think it's personal Morpheon. Just two artists disagreeing about which brush fibers are best :)

But I would have to say I'm with Zev0 on this one, G3F base looks like an evolution of the base mesh from G2F not something totally different IMO. You did make a few rather large calls, and of course they are your opinion and you're entitled to them. But I wouldn't expect others not to disagree.

Blandness and appeal are subjective qualities that mean different things to different people, and the fact is that I'm less impressed by my first impressions of G3F than I was with my first impressions of the original Genesis. That may have a lot to do with the fact that G3F appears as more of an incremental change over previous Genesis figures than the original Genesis was over V4, and other than what artists like JPayne and Balassa are doing with G3F, I'm still waiting to be blown away by her. And Zev0, yourself, and others are more than welcome to disagree with my opinions.

On the surface G3 doesn't look like a major shift. All you see is a shape. It is what she has under the hood that makes the difference. The minute she starts to bend you see the differences. Only time you can really appreciate the change is by loading all Genesis figures side by side and doing a direct comparison, testing poses, expressions, limitations etc...

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tparo posted at 12:07PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4236885

the skin looks awful grainy and bumpy.

That's rendered in Cycles, a progressive refinement rendering engine. If allowed a full run, it wouldn't have that grainy/bumpy effect.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Black__Days posted at 6:13PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4237052

tparo posted at 12:07PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4236885

the skin looks awful grainy and bumpy.

That's rendered in Cycles, a progressive refinement rendering engine. If allowed a full run, it wouldn't have that grainy/bumpy effect.

Cycles is not an adaptive render engine like Iray, you have to decide before the fact how many samples you want to compute. In Blender there is the possibility of doing several, statistically indipendent, renders which can then be combined to provide more refinement, without starting from scratch (I don't know whether SM has added this functionality to P11). Another reason for the graininess is likely not-so-big/not-so-good texture maps.

The beta testers are doing a sterling job in providing the least possible appealing renders of Pauline; I have no doubt that if it was in the hands of erogenesis (who has post really beautiful just-Firefly renders over RDNA), the results would be much better.

O.K., I'm home from work now, and I've had a chance to look this thread over again.

Zev0 and Razor, I owe you both an apology. Zev0, I took your earlier post to infer that I made a declarative statement about a different artist making G3F -- that I had made a statement to the effect that "this is a fact" -- and it's obvious that I misread the intent of that comment. And Razor, for me getting on a high horse about it.

Let me just say in my defense, it was very early, I had just woken up and was still on auto-pilot, I was caffeine-deprived, and was trying to squeeze in some computer time as I was getting ready to go to work, so I was not as attentive as I ought to have been, and not as civil as I usually try to be, and again, I do apologize. I am not a morning person (I usually prefer to stay up 'til 2 or 3 A.M. and then get up around the crack of noon), and early mornings are not a good time for me to be trying to have a conversation with anyone about anything.

chaecuna posted at 8:20PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4237053

The beta testers are doing a sterling job in providing the least possible appealing renders of Pauline; I have no doubt that if it was in the hands of erogenesis (who has post really beautiful just-Firefly renders over RDNA), the results would be much better.

Did... Did you just insult everybody that has let people see their beta renders of Pauline at the same time?

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

So, looking at the easy morphability of her face, Pauline seems pretty neat. We still need to see some test renders of her arms, hands, torso and legs before any real judgements can be made.

That said, what is up with her heels being so flat? It looks like they were actually trimmed down with a planing tool.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Morpheon posted at 4:20AM Fri, 06 November 2015 - #4237133

O.K., I'm home from work now, and I've had a chance to look this thread over again.

Zev0 and Razor, I owe you both an apology. Zev0, I took your earlier post to infer that I made a declarative statement about a different artist making G3F -- that I had made a statement to the effect that "this is a fact" -- and it's obvious that I misread the intent of that comment. And Razor, for me getting on a high horse about it.

Let me just say in my defense, it was very early, I had just woken up and was still on auto-pilot, I was caffeine-deprived, and was trying to squeeze in some computer time as I was getting ready to go to work, so I was not as attentive as I ought to have been, and not as civil as I usually try to be, and again, I do apologize. I am not a morning person (I usually prefer to stay up 'til 2 or 3 A.M. and then get up around the crack of noon), and early mornings are not a good time for me to be trying to have a conversation with anyone about anything.

No need to apologize dude. It's all good.

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Black__Days posted at 4:21AM Fri, 06 November 2015 - #4237134

chaecuna posted at 8:20PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4237053

The beta testers are doing a sterling job in providing the least possible appealing renders of Pauline; I have no doubt that if it was in the hands of erogenesis (who has post really beautiful just-Firefly renders over RDNA), the results would be much better.

Did... Did you just insult everybody that has let people see their beta renders of Pauline at the same time?

Lol what's wrong with that? Those beta renders are not the best. I said the same thing, only difference is I got banned from RDNA for doing so lol. You wouldn't see Daz letting beta testers post renders of their new figures before it's launched without approval from their art department. Every render has to be approved. They would handle that with care making sure it was killer before it went live. That is the difference. Previewing a new figure isn't a mickey mouse job. First impressions last, and those renders of Pauline do not make me go wow. Maybe in the hands of a good render artist my reaction will be different:) But so far, the marketing has been handled pretty amateurish.

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Morpheon posted at 1:37PM Fri, 06 November 2015 - #4237133

O.K., I'm home from work now, and I've had a chance to look this thread over again.

Zev0 and Razor, I owe you both an apology. Zev0, I took your earlier post to infer that I made a declarative statement about a different artist making G3F -- that I had made a statement to the effect that "this is a fact" -- and it's obvious that I misread the intent of that comment. And Razor, for me getting on a high horse about it.

Let me just say in my defense, it was very early, I had just woken up and was still on auto-pilot, I was caffeine-deprived, and was trying to squeeze in some computer time as I was getting ready to go to work, so I was not as attentive as I ought to have been, and not as civil as I usually try to be, and again, I do apologize. I am not a morning person (I usually prefer to stay up 'til 2 or 3 A.M. and then get up around the crack of noon), and early mornings are not a good time for me to be trying to have a conversation with anyone about anything.

No worries man, it's all good. I think thick skins comes with the territory :) And no need for an apology.

Black__Days posted at 1:38PM Fri, 06 November 2015 - #4237134

chaecuna posted at 8:20PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - #4237053

The beta testers are doing a sterling job in providing the least possible appealing renders of Pauline; I have no doubt that if it was in the hands of erogenesis (who has post really beautiful just-Firefly renders over RDNA), the results would be much better.

Did... Did you just insult everybody that has let people see their beta renders of Pauline at the same time?

Have to say I agree with chaecuna and Z. SM needs to seriously look at how they market these things if they plan to ever be competitive again in this market space.

At least here in this forum, people can express their viewpoints of Pauline without fear of being banished like a dissenter or bullied by the usual Poserphile crowd.

When you silence any criticism and just encourage blind "Wow, she is great!" or a policy of "if you can't say something nice, don't say..." you generally end up straying away from what the majority of consumers want in a product. Making a purchasing decision is very rarely based on well "I just want to be nice, so take my money." It's kind of like saying if the only opinion that matters is my mother's and she thinks everything I do is "Awesome!" how dare you say my Art installation of platonic solids formed from my own ear wax is going to be a tough sell.

There is a triangle involved here it's generally formed by Creative, Critic and Consumer. You don't necessarily need a critic to be creative but often the gap between Creative and Consumer is better bridged when put through a critic conduit. If in development you insulate yourself from any form of criticism you may find yourself with a finished product that the development team loves but consumers find flat or misdirected. Sure not all criticism is constructive, but ignoring all of it is a massive risk. Marketing 101 says that when introducing a new product, presentation is everything. Imagine a prototype ferrari image with a massive oil spill under it and a wheel missing. (Do you think it would increase sales or hurt when the model is released?)

The strawpoll indicate that out of almost 50 potential customers nearly %80, so far find Pauline 1. Rather ugly, and unattractive or 2. Not ideal feminine, in fact kind of manly. If I was a developer even an unofficial focus group like such would have me a little worried. But somehow all I hear in the official thread is positive feedback some of it even about things that haven't actually been shown in any preview. Considering the "neat" "Morphability of her face" the characters I have seen so far for Pauline look remarkably similar to each other. As I have said previously good marketing is not telling me it's great, it's showing it's great.

Agreed and well said. And the Poll results are a direct impact of what people were shown, which is proof that what you show, regardless of preview, beta or whatever stage, still holds weight in peoples perspective and opinion on something. If they were shown better images, I bet the vote results would have been different. So yeah, make damn sure you put your best foot forward when doing figure marketing. It is no different when selling a product when doing promos. Those promos determine that products sales volume. Amazing promos boost sales, poor promos lead to average sales. Face value is very important.

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I am impressed well done all. And I mean it! It is not easy to rip thru Daz and SM at the same time and keep it all cheery as possible. Pro's and Con's are fine Razor after all a one winged bird can only fly in circles, it would be a bit dull after a while. As long as all members can express their opinion freely (Within the guidelines of course) and be respected then all is well IMO

I am inclined to agree with the statement the renders for this character should be tightly controlled as Daz would do. Or you would think any company 3D or not would do it is not rocket science. If we are making the comments and we know they can be improved then the general public or people considering getting into 3D might be swayed a certain way as they don't have a full understanding of how far these characters can be altered. First impression do count or we wouldn't be having the convo..... it's a mystery.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

The bad thing about the trend, is that I feel the people monitoring the thread at that other site are directly involved with the development of Pauline. So rather than considering feedback in a reasonable manner. They are protecting their baby so to speak. Any criticism about the figure becomes that much more personal and they act personally to protect themselves and their baby. There is a bit of a disinformation meme going about that says 'people saying bad things are what makes these things fail'. In my experience the market is not so easily swayed by individual opinions and are generally smart enough to make their own assessment of the viability of a product. To stifle any criticism is basically restricting Pauline to a user group project rather than a competitive professional figure offering. Also on a more general note I haven't seen any real effort by SM to solve some of the big issues like version fragmentation of its user base, which may become one of the major issues facing Paulines adoption rate.

Okay and in order of fairness the same has been said of the Daz forum by loyal Daz users that a fair bit of cut and shut has been going on too. How they handle their forums is none of my business I am however responsible for this one and while there has certainly been a few cliff hangers with members hanging by the fingernails over the past days in the Daz arena all seem to correct themselves and that can only be a good thing. With the posts here on this Daz forum there are plenty with the view from both sides like the 4.9 thread for example. My job is to stop you killing or belittling each other not force opinion one way or the other as that would be unhelpful. One thing to be mindful of is this does not become a product bashing exercise and just in its nature it is tipping that way. That is against the TOS guidelines. Smith Micro are our friends here and should be extended the same rights as members get. If the same issues are present on RDNA then then me sitting here waiting for some heads to come in her defense might be a bit of a stretch and wishful thinking. I keep an open mind with Pauline since I didn't think that much of the character Dawn actually no opinion either way but I had her long time and not a ray has past her so the jury was out with the 'One day'. I simply don't get a lot of time to do these things I wish I did. About 4 days ago I was looking in the gallery and must have went to the gallery homepage the "What's New" and there on the wall stuck out a magic render I opened it up and it was Dawn I thought no way can't be. Just shows what can be done as that one render changed my mind. I think we have the issue here where there is some very ordinary renders of a character and we all know what the alternatives that are already in use can do. So it is a little lop sided. It would be nice to have a couple of promo renders in full glory before we all get too carried away. I am not so sure poaching them from another site is the go either I will see if I can dig something up via a more legit method like asking them.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

Fair Points Johnny.

I'm pretty sure it's not considered poaching of images in this context. I believe Fair Use would come into play here as the images are being referenced for commentary and critique. But of course we would be happy to look at anything you could obtain through more "Legitimate" means. Be careful how you ask though, I wouldn't infer there is anything wrong with the ones already circulating.

I am not that fussed about the images that are here we have to have something to look at I just don't feel it is doing her justice I am inclined to agree with chaecuna's statement over this to the letter. I think the beta testers could have done more. A little bit of presentation goes a long way and these are like boardroom pre finalized draft designs. I reckon there would be hundreds of Poser orientated members here that could have put her in a scene with the wow factor that would have blown our socks off. It is more of a shame than anything if you ask me. I will chase it up or my OCD will kick in...... and we don't want that

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

Here's probably the best I have seen so far of her mug. The expression looks pretty good. By ken1171

and another that I won't comment on by the same artist:

Certainly lot better images than we had to go by. Eyes are not too untidy either

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

What people do not understand in this community (and mommy-knows-best moderators reinforce this non-understanding) is that there is a deep difference between this-is-shit and this-is-shift-because-... : the first is trolling (and should be shot down), the second is criticism (and should be meditated upon).

Anyway, in the RDNA thread it was written that Teyon is still working on morphs so it is not the final state but an advanced work-in-progress situation. Personally, I feel that her face is kinda squashed on Poser z-axis (especially the nose area) and the neck appears to be too long, but these are problems that can be fixed in minutes with some morphs.

Razor42 posted at 12:04PM Fri, 06 November 2015 - #4237182

Here's probably the best I have seen so far of her mug. The expression looks pretty good. By ken1171

and another that I won't comment on by the same artist:

Nice , but her lips look wromg. The upper lip peak is weird. And she still seems to have a strong underbite.

chaecuna posted at 1:16AM Sat, 07 November 2015 - #4237187

What people do not understand in this community (and mommy-knows-best moderators reinforce this non-understanding) is that there is a deep difference between this-is-shit and this-is-shift-because-... : the first is trolling (and should be shot down), the second is criticism (and should be meditated upon).

Anyway, in the RDNA thread it was written that Teyon is still working on morphs so it is not the final state but an advanced work-in-progress situation. Personally, I feel that her face is kinda squashed on Poser z-axis (especially the nose area) and the neck appears to be too long, but these are problems that can be fixed in minutes with some morphs.

I don't think customers are required by any unwritten law to lay down constructive feedback to help a business make a better product to sell them, are they? That's what focus groups are for, most companies pay these groups for that kind of feedback. It's generally well within a consumer's rights to say "It doesn't appeal to me, I won't be purchasing it" or even to say nothing at all and just leave, without needing to validate their opinion with a reason. It's hardly trolling to do likewise on the internet.

Generally though if I find something I have purchased has some "shift" on it, I will take it back and demand a full refund. Usually showing the shift to the salesman doesn't require further explanation of why I am returning the goods, he can usually connect the dots himself/herself :P

You seem to confusing artistic critique with consumer critique to be honest.

Actually looking over this thread most critics have been fairly constructive in their views here.

I am actually looking forward to seeing a more finalised version of Pauline with any required shifts being implemented. Something like the lip issue should definitely be adjusted on the base and not be a fixer morph though.

Very disappointing figure. It's quite easy to see why the Genesis figures are the way to go.

The people that find her 'not ideal femenine' are correct. She is a base figure after all, not a 'render me right out of the box' finished character, despite arguments to the contrary. A quick look at how the handles are set up for her face and seeing how simple major adjustments are would be enough to convince anyone that cares to look of that fact.

That aside. my main concerns about her are the parts of her body that we have not seen. And seriously, what is up with that heel?

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

I have to admit, based on these renders, that I don't like the look of her upper lip (it's missing that little indentation under the septum). It looks too much like a cartoon. But other than that she looks OK.

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She really does have a hip. Yay !!! Pretty unusual for a Poser-Figure. Poser-Figures usually tend to look emaciated androgyn.

where you get this shiny beaty texture? I guess that she comes from westen. g2,g3,g2+g3 clone,which is the same,no morph.

wheatpenny posted at 4:37PM Sat, 07 November 2015 - #4237233

I have to admit, based on these renders, that I don't like the look of her upper lip (it's missing that little indentation under the septum). It looks too much like a cartoon. But other than that she looks OK.

Lip bits been killing me as well but I think it as stated there is more to go before finalized surely it will be one of the additions, be a PITA to have to photoshop that in each and every time.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

My reaction to the first pictures was "Wow, is it really 2005 again?" I mean it looks so vintage Poserish, particularly when you compare it with the V6 and V7 renders. I never got to whether she's a good looking model of a woman, she looks like a cartoon. So count me in the "um, guys, be careful with your promo shots, even of beta's" camp.

Looking at the later renders of her helps in that regard. But morphs can fix most stuff, I'd be interested in knowing how she bends, and what kind of expressions she is capable of. And of course you can't tell that from any of the renders in this thread. There certainly isn't anything there that would drive me straight back to Poser, and my last copy is 2010. Meh, it's still a beta though, so it has time.

diogenese19348 posted at 12:05AM Mon, 09 November 2015 - #4237538

My reaction to the first pictures was "Wow, is it really 2005 again?" I mean it looks so vintage Poserish, particularly when you compare it with the V6 and V7 renders. I never got to whether she's a good looking model of a woman, she looks like a cartoon. So count me in the "um, guys, be careful with your promo shots, even of beta's" camp.

Looking at the later renders of her helps in that regard. But morphs can fix most stuff, I'd be interested in knowing how she bends, and what kind of expressions she is capable of. And of course you can't tell that from any of the renders in this thread. There certainly isn't anything there that would drive me straight back to Poser, and my last copy is 2010. Meh, it's still a beta though, so it has time.

Well with all the fanfare from SM saying that the new version of Poser is releasing soon, it seems like the rigging is getting a rush job with weightmaps getting adjustments even while preview pics are being shown. From a content developer point of view, you simply can't keep changing the rigging and setup on a figure you are wanting people to work on so soon to release, unless you're not releasing the figures with the program. You definitely can't change rigging and weightmaps on content developers making clothing; that will make them mad if they have to keep redoing the rigging.

With all the public redos and fixes, it would seem either the content is being rushed out the door, or the testers aren't doing a thorough job of catching these issues before the public sees them, in addition to people being hostile to people pointing out the issues. Either scenario doesn't inspire confidence in making content for the figure, and really the stuff being shown needs to be solid before showing it to the public. The content and the renders really do play a part in getting people on board with the software and so far only the primitives rendered by Bagginsbill shows any promise for the release. Everything else looks really amateurish and that's not a good thing for competition.

Yeah pretty much. But that is what happens when you do not have proper structures in place.... Anyways....Good luck to them.

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Well ,I shall not mince words.

I predict EPIC FAIL!!

This is my personal extrapolation based on Empiracal Data. The poser Loyalist will make a valiant effort and put on a brave public face.

There MAY even be a Core group of Die hards that will claim the new figures are awesome not matter the unfolding Disaster.

There will be the usual "hey look what I made for (XXXXX)" threads that will soon fade into the abyss of the rosity forum archives.

Just as Pauline& Paul take their place in the ever growing rubbish bin of poser figure history.

They >>>DONT LOOK HUMAN!!!.<<< Sorry but its the truth and they will Fail $$Commercially$.

bye.

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Agreed with all you have said. I won't say they are rubbish (a bit harsh lol), but compared to G3? Not good enough in my opinion.

Sigh.....Same pattern, just a different figure, just a different year.....They really failed to realize how important this was for them. I do not see bulk of vendors jumping on board. The ones I have spoken to are not really impressed by what they have seen. At best, Dawn and Dusk support, if they are lucky, unless something magical changes opinions of them.

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wolf359 posted at 5:50PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - #4237641

I predict EPIC FAIL!!

Well, this time Poser vendors and users know what the alternative is: If P11 fails, Poser fails. If Poser fails, vendors can go to work to the nearest fast food and users have no alternative to submit to DAZ. Fear is a great motivator and, in fact, I noticed a different tone in many posts around the forums, a kind of calm, the ships-have-burned-to-ashes-we-can-only-go-forward attitude.

As a Studio user (at least for the time being) I send my most heartfelt wishes to success to P11, Paul and Pauline. Without any kind of competition, DAZ move to the cloud nightmare will be even faster than what is already happening.

Everyone prematurely decrying the Poser 11 figures should just relax. I realize that's not the general attitude of the forums here at Renderosity. People here tend to be of the Chicken Little variety when something they don't like is happening around their pet software, while they watch with relish when something they can make out to be a disaster happens in the camp of the Others.

The fact is that we have not seen enough about the Poser 11 figures to say whether they will be good or bad, and anyone making decisions (pro or con) on what has been shown publicly is the worst kind of consumer. People are prematurely setting their hair on fire or celebrating about the DAZ Connect thing as well depending on which camp they fall into, which is equally silly. Personally, I want the best for both Poser and DAZ Studio. Competition between them is good for us, the end users and content creators.

Also note that for anyone capable of making complete figures, if Pauline and Paul are as bad as some people here seem to be not so secretly hoping, it presents an opportunity for a windfall. Make the de facto base figures for Poser 11 and make a fortune.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Some of us have seen enough. What you are saying is that somebody who auditions for Idols should get 5 chances to impress the judges because they didn't nail it the first time? Sorry, it does not work like that. You need to bring it first time. Worst type of consumer? Sorry, but that is the majority of consumers. Same thing in every aspect of life. Want to get a job, you better impress in that interview or guess what, they will hire somebody else who does. Welcome to the real world. Now regarding......

if Pauline and Paul are as bad as some people here seem to be not so secretly hoping, it presents an opportunity for a windfall. Make the de facto base figures for Poser 11 and make a fortune.

That won't work unless you manage to gain mass vendor support. No point in releasing a new figure that only has a limited amount of morphs and content. You cannot do it by yourself. You need an entire ecosystem in order for it to take off. Marketing, Vendor support, financial backing, community interest....We have seen plenty of one off's that never lasted, no point in another one thanks. I prefer quality over quantity.

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Zev0 posted at 2:03PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - #4237674

Some of us have seen enough. What you are saying is that somebody who auditions for Idols should get 5 chances to impress the judges because they didn't nail it the first time? Sorry, it does not work like that. You need to bring it first time. Worst type of consumer? Sorry, but that is the majority of consumers. Same thing in every aspect of life. Want to get a job, you better impress in that interview or guess what, they will hire somebody else who does. Welcome to the real world. Now regarding......

I enjoy life coaching from strangers on the internet as much as the next guy, but you have seen nothing that isn't beta yet. That means you have by definition not seen enough, at least for anyone that cares about using accurate (read: final) information as the basis for their decisions.

What you are saying is that somebody who auditions for Idols should get 5 chances to impress the judges because they didn't nail it the first time? Sorry, it does not work like that. You need to bring it first time.

So, is this an intentional strawman argument, or do you really not understand what I said? In case it's the latter, what I actually said is what I wrote. To put it in other words, since that's what you wanted to do anyway, everyone should wait for a final version to make final decisions, if they care about making a decision based on the appropriate information.

That won't work unless you manage to gain mass vendor support. No point in releasing a new figure that only has a limited amount of morphs and content. You cannot do it by yourself. You need an entire ecosystem in order for it to take off. Marketing, Vendor support, financial backing, community interest....We have seen plenty of one off's that never lasted, no point in another one thanks. I prefer quality over quantity.

Hence the use of the phrase 'de facto'.

I realize you're likely to continue to bemoan the situation as you perceive it, and that's fine. It's your right, after all. Just keep in mind that just because it's your right, it doesn't mean that you're right. Cheers.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

"Everyone should wait for a final version to make final decisions, if they care about making a decision based on the appropriate information."

Everybody should yes, but everybody doesn't, and you cannot expect everybody to do so. All you can do is damage control in the meantime. That is the point I am trying to make. SM could have done damage control by not letting those renders go live, because guess what, people WILL judge and form an opinion based on what they see. So who is at fault? Us for forming an opinion prior to a final version? Or them for showing us things that failed to impress?

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I've seen an image by I think its was Lululee somewhere sorry can't remember where, which actually looked good.

But I'm presuming/speculating that as the figures can be redistributed the idea is that any problems will be fixed by the community and given out as freebies or as saleable content for those that either don't want to do the work or can't, in some ways it makes sense, let those who can do good work do it.

Zev0 posted at 2:38PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - #4237686

So who is at fault? Us for forming an opinion prior to a final version? Or them for showing us things that failed to impress?

Both. Sorry to be blunt, but just because someone else does something stupid, it doesn't mean we should. Or in aphorism form, 'two wrongs do not make a right'.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

figures can be redistributed the idea is that any problems will be fixed by the community and given out as freebies or as saleable content for those that either don't want to do the work or can't, in some ways it makes sense, let those who can do good work do it.

This confuses me. How is that any different than what people are currently doing with figures now? Also redistribution of the figure is a holy ^@$! Up because if there is a new revision of the base from somebody else, you will have compatibility issues with content. So I doubt it will be any different to how Daz allows you to make content for their figures. Only difference I see is that the base texture on the new SM figures is a MR. Just because Daz does not market their base figures as MR's doesn't mean they aren't. I mean we all make content and freebies for it. SM are playing word games as a marketing tactic in my opinion. If they are indeed allowing you to modify and redistribute the base, then that is another fail, you will end up with so many versions of the figure that will lose compatibility with content. So I do not see how that makes any sense to be honest.

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Well you could perhaps see it as making sense for SM they haven't had to pay anyone to do a really good job, it will be done by the community - possibly in a similar way that the WM V4 was done.

Community efforts can never compete with direct vendor support. It never has and never will. Also if vendors perceive a figure to be a community effort, they will stay away. They will only invest in a figure that has a strong backing and reputation. If SM is going to just offload these figures to the community like all figures before, nothing is going to change, and they will get just as much direct support as previous community projects, which isn't much in the commercial sense of things. That is not how you grow your market. Your aim is to get content developers onboard with your figures, because direct support changes the perception of a figure in this industry. If people only see content coming from the community, it will be perceived as market dead, and that does not attract more people to it.

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From everything I have read Pauline and Paul or actually more of a Vendor Base then a Consumer figure base. You like good bends? Better learn to create JCM's or find a product that gives them to you . You want her to look better? Better hope a vendor creates a character you like or learn to Model. Once again SM seem to be leaving the figures future in the hands of 3rd parties developers and refusing to face Posers content crisis which is leaving users with little choice but to use 10 year old figures. It's clear though that if you think Pauline is going to be anything like Genesis 3 out of the box you're in for a rough time.

It seems that they are aiming Paul and Pauline as more as a Base V4 replacement, then any real competition to the Genesis figure series. Apparently taking a big risk imo expecting vendors to just jump in and embrace Pauline as V4 was. And establish new bases to work from such as Morphs++, etc. Those were different times and you can't roll back the clock at this point. The danger of this is that fragmentation of the figure so Pauline becomes BH's gorgeous GND 27 and vendors need to pick do I support a bland JCMless Pauline or the Sexy new BH GND 27 version of Pauline. A base fragmented figure on top of a version fragmented user base...

I tend to agree that it seems to have epic fail written all over it. Let's hope someone there see's some sense before it is too late.

Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it

Let's hope someone there see's some sense before it is too late.

Nope they are too stubborn. They will only listen to faithful Poser users. You have ambassadors who aren't even AAA vendors who are dictating why figures should be created a specific way, enforcing their personal views on how things should be when they are clueless as to what users actually want. They expect every user to dig deep and use all the tools if they want something that isn't provided. It doesn't work that way....

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Razor42 posted at 8:51PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - #4237755

From everything I have read Pauline and Paul or actually more of a Vendor Base then a Consumer figure base.

Citation needed.

It seems that they are aiming Paul and Pauline as more as a Base V4 replacement, then any real competition to the Genesis figure series.

Again, citation needed.

I tend to agree that it seems to have epic fail written all over it. Let's hope someone there see's some sense before it is too late.

Opinions vary. Some people even (wisely, in my opinion) choose not to form one until they see the final product.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Zev0 posted at 9:06PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - #4237756

They expect every user to dig deep and use all the tools if they want something that isn't provided. It doesn't work that way....

This is true. Most people seem to have a strong preference for being spoon-fed.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Spoon feeding is the wrong word to use. I prefer the term convenience. This is a content buyers market.

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_ Opinions vary. Some people even (wisely, in my opinion) choose not to form one until they see the final product._

Some of us have seen the final product for years now already lol. Every time we are told the same thing...wait and see, wait and see...And it's the same situation every time....So, forgive me if I do not think this time is going to be any different. Based on the initial way these figures were announced and handled, I doubt it. I am seeing the same trends, just a different year. You want to remain optimistic, good. Me? I will continue to follow my research and market data, and trust my instincts, because it has never let me down so far.

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Zev0 posted at 9:32PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - #4237762

_ Opinions vary. Some people even (wisely, in my opinion) choose not to form one until they see the final product._

Some of us have seen the final product for years now already lol. Every time we are told the same thing...wait and see, wait and see...And it's the same situation every time....So, forgive me if I do not think this time is going to be any different. Based on the initial way these figures were announced and handled, I doubt it. I am seeing the same trends, just a different year. You want to remain optimistic, good. Me? I will continue to follow my research and market data, and trust my instincts, because it has never let me down so far.

Hey, I hear ya. I have been around this place since Poser 4 came out. I remember the hot 20 wars, and Legume deciding to start a one-poster holy war over the number of Naked Vicki in a Temple with a Sword renders that filled them. And I am just as annoyed with the way Poser development and it's (lack of) content have gone. I am just saying, waiting for a few days until we see what the state of things actually is before making a judgement won't kill us.

And if it's another let-down, I'll be right there beside you with torches and pitchforks.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Very well...Fair enough...Let's wait and see:) I have my optimistic face on:) Bleh, my face is pulling stiff...Just a few more days:)

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Black__Days posted at 2:11PM Tue, 10 November 2015 - #4237758

Razor42 posted at 8:51PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - #4237755

From everything I have read Pauline and Paul or actually more of a Vendor Base then a Consumer figure base.

Citation needed.

It seems that they are aiming Paul and Pauline as more as a Base V4 replacement, then any real competition to the Genesis figure series.

Again, citation needed.

I tend to agree that it seems to have epic fail written all over it. Let's hope someone there see's some sense before it is too late.

Opinions vary. Some people even (wisely, in my opinion) choose not to form one until they see the final product.

It's all there in the official Smith Micro threads.

It's been clearly stated numerous time in that thread that Pauline will need 3rd party creation to have Realistic bends (JCM support), Characters other than a plain base, Morphs etc and also that Pauline will be a "merchant resource". In fact the suggestion that she doesn't bend very well has been received as less than welcome feedback, and any suggesting such are being pointed out as demanding a niche or as "Porno" renderers. What is coming with Pauline is the equivalent of making a base V4 and saying the "vendors" will make it wonderful, so don't judge the canvas. In effect you will have V4 but you will need to wait and purchase or make your own extensions to this base to add usability that the average user may expect as part of a base figure. Very similar to all of the past Poser figure releases. Which in my opinion makes Pauline an out of the box vendor resource, that will need lots of work to be done to make her an actual consumer solution to realistic figure rendering.

Opinions vary. Some people even (wisely, in my opinion) choose not to form one until they see the final product.

Well as this may appear "wise", it's very different to what actual markets do. Most people will form an opinion well before something reaches a "final stage". And usually will have a strong opinion on whether they intend to purchase or pass, well before it's on the shelves. The way marketing works in principle is that your job is to convince someone of their need or want for a product. The moment someone has an impression the dials have begin to turn as to whether you want or need the product. A marketer's job is to ensure that those dials, in as many cases as possible spin to Yes! Whether people buy cans of Coke, Pepsi or Vitamin water has very little to do with "Wisdom" and a whole lot to do with branding, marketing and product positioning.

Also all there is really to do is wait. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be sitting on my hands till then. :D

"From everything I have read Pauline and Paul or actually more of a Vendor Base then a Consumer figure base. You like good bends? Better learn to create JCM's or find a product that gives them to you . You want her to look better? Better hope a vendor creates a character you like or learn to Model. Once again SM seem to be leaving the figures future in the hands of 3rd parties developers"

Indeed sir The prevailing unofficial speculation over at RDNA is that these are just "bases" and not the "final bases" at that. No official confirmation from SM.

While I dont dismiss this approach out of hand( if true)

I do indeed question the business model of expecting existing users to pay for upgrades or new users to pay the full purchase price( $300-$400??) for a new version of poser to access these figures.

And further expecting them to wait patiently while all of the "Fixes" "Enhancements" etc are randomly "crowd sourced" by some presumed, disparate group Skilled enthusiasts who will risk shouldering the cost in time and resources to create and market the Content,morphs etc.

show me me any industry producing tangible or digital products where such business model is profitable???

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I've got to admit, nothing I've seen about Pauline so far impresses me. The character by Lululee looks great, until you look at the shoulders, and they seem to have a ballooning issue similar to V4 (actually worse than V4). There was also a good render by BaginsBill, but that's about it. Unfortunately, the other renders I've seen simply don't leave me feeling good about the figure. The feet/heels definitely look wrong, or maybe just unattractive and disproportionate?

Hopefully things will change for the better before Pauline and Paul are released. Maybe it's just a case of several poor renders so far, and Pauline will actually look better in the hands of some of the great poser artists? Unfortunately, right now it looks like Pauline in on the same track as Roxie, rush the figure out the door with known issues, and expect the "community" to fix her - we can see how well that worked for Roxie. At any rate, it will be interesting to see what the final versions looks like.

I also hope it's just the skill level of the beta testers, because I haven't see many (4 or 5??) great Cycles (Superfly) renders yet. I hope this is just because lighting is soooo much different with Superfly that long time Poser users haven't figured it out yet. My first Iray render was definitely better than most of what I've seen so far. I just hope that Cycles integration in Poser is as easy to use and get great results from as Iray is in DS.

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wolf359 posted at 2:46PM Tue, 10 November 2015 - #4237835

show me me any industry producing tangible or digital products where such business model is profitable???

Game development. Just look at all the fixes users had to implement in past versions of Unity and UDK to get them working right, and the content sold on their official websites is virtually all user generated, for the benefit of other users (at a premium, but still). Game Maker Studio and RPG Maker have run on this business model for years, and they seem to be making enough money, since they keep producing new versions. In those two environments, bugs are fixed and features are added almost exclusively by the community, for free, and later incorporated into the core. That's how RPG Maker MV (the latest version) got the Yanfly scripts and engines incorporated into the official initial release.

I guess there's just a difference in user bases. Perhaps one group wants to make things and figure things out, and the other wants to be handed perfection with all effort removed from day one.

DustRider posted at 2:54PM Tue, 10 November 2015 - #4237840

I just hope that Cycles integration in Poser is as easy to use and get great results from as Iray is in DS.

Well, Cycles in Blender isn't as easy as Blender Render (the basic internal renderer), but Cycles offers much better results. I find that most any time a piece of software is easy to use as compared to more complicated alternatives, it is inherently less powerful. That's just the nature of sacrificing features and customization for ease of use. Just look at how much more powerful ZBrush is than Mudbox, for instance.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

wolf359 posted at 1:30PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4237641

Well ,I shall not mince words.

I predict EPIC FAIL!!

This is my personal extrapolation based on Empiracal Data. The poser Loyalist will make a valiant effort and put on a brave public face.

There MAY even be a Core group of Die hards that will claim the new figures are awesome not matter the unfolding Disaster.

There will be the usual "hey look what I made for (XXXXX)" threads that will soon fade into the abyss of the rosity forum archives.

Just as Pauline& Paul take their place in the ever growing rubbish bin of poser figure history.

They >>>DONT LOOK HUMAN!!!.<<< Sorry but its the truth and they will Fail $$Commercially$.

bye.

We have to draw the line somewhere wolf359 a company puts up it's offering and we as consumers make our choices, nobody is forced to buy anything. Now this is basically a Poser topic on the Daz forum the least we can do is keep things a little reserved in our judgement. I don't expect Daz or SM to do everything I would like them to I would have to purchase either to make some sort of impact. It has been said these figures are not final public releases and I don't think SM have them available in renders from what I gather and in response. You are entitled to your opinion but please go easy and perhaps "mince" your words quite a bit please. It is not helpful.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

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Is Pauline meant to be a "Realistic" human figure? The more renders I see, the more I get a feeling she is highly stylised figure and not so much aiming for realism, I'm still waiting to see Pauline rendered in the new PBR renderer with a look that even approaches realism.

Razor42 posted at 10:51AM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4237975

Is Pauline meant to be a "Realistic" human figure? The more renders I see, the more I get a feeling she is highly stylised figure and not so much aiming for realism, I'm still waiting to see Pauline rendered in the new PBR renderer with a look that even approaches realism.

erogenesis, who has not access to Pauline, is the only person in that group who knows how to create good renders. Everybody else is posting images that look like they have been hand picked by... DAZ managers.

SM seems to have put some effort into Poser characters (a break from the past), you cannot pretend that they also find somebody apart from vilters&co. to render it.

chaecuna posted at 1:53PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4237989

Razor42 posted at 10:51AM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4237975

Is Pauline meant to be a "Realistic" human figure? The more renders I see, the more I get a feeling she is highly stylised figure and not so much aiming for realism, I'm still waiting to see Pauline rendered in the new PBR renderer with a look that even approaches realism.

erogenesis, who has not access to Pauline, is the only person in that group who knows how to create good renders. Everybody else is posting images that look like they have been hand picked by... DAZ managers.

SM seems to have put some effort into Poser characters (a break from the past), you cannot pretend that they also find somebody apart from vilters&co. to render it.

Yes decent effort, but not good enough in my opinion, not compared to G3. Pauline looks like a typical 3D mesh, not something striving for realism (I am talking about structure and bends). Now I can point out a few issues I have with her that is contributing to this fact, but I really do not feel like it to be honest. She is what she is. Will wait to see what people do with her to see if it changes my opinion. And FYI we post what they chose to show lol.

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What I find really strange is RDNA (Official Poser forum) has lots of render guru's and not one of them have bothered to do showcase renders, yet SM left it to the usuals to show the figures off. If I were SM that is the first place I would have gone. Where are renders from Caisson and Co? NightSong? Why haven't the Staff of RDNA (who make amazing renders) contributed in showcasing these figures? Strange don't you think? Somebody go tell Sydd to put down G3 and do some Pauline renders please:)

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Anyways this is what I say will happen. I could be wrong (and I hope I will be) but anyways here it goes. These are just my views.

Will Paul and Pauline be a commercial success like the Genesis figures? No. Will it attract mass vendor support? No. Will they be a dream for the Poser tinkerers? Sure, why not.

Why won't they be a commercial success? Well, for starters, every vendor would have to have a copy of Poser 11 Pro just to start development for them. Every user will require Poser 11 to use the content made for these figures and the figures themselves. Direct compatibility with content such as V4 or Genesis clothing, Poses, Skins as well is a must, so users can use some of their prior content investments. So, there lies the problem as to why first of all these figures aren't an attractive aspect. It could be if the Software and Base figures were free. People could develop without financial implications. But it isn't. Second of all, they simply do not match G2 and 3 in terms of aesthetic looks which is important in attracting vendors and users. Also the poor marketing of them so far has not helped.

People like to be optimistic, nothing wrong with that, but when you look at the logistics that argue against optimism, it's kind of difficult to get excited and be hopeful that these figures will make any impact on the commercial sector of the market, and us vendors need a figure to do that in order to support it, or we will be losing revenue. Do I want these figures to fail? Not really. If a figure succeeds that means another platform to make a living on. Unfortunately, other than Daz in recent years, no other company has provided a viable alternative and managed to maintain momentum. Hivewire tried with Dawn and Dusk, and support has basically come to a stand still from 3rd parties, pretty sure within a few months the same will happen with Pauline and Paul. Yes you will get those who always like to test the waters at first, but for some of us who have been through this dance many times, we will just ignore. Anyways like I said, these are just my views. I do hope I am proven wrong though....Come on SM, prove me wrong....Anyways, putting on my optimistic face again.....

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Think you nailed it Zev......In order for a figure to succeed it need to be supported by content makers and customers. The way to get content makers to support it is to make it have a wide range of customers. Not just the ones who decided to spend all that money to upgrade poser. If there is still so much talk about poser users using V4...it doesnt sound like there are many who really are into upgrading anyway. So the customer base wont be very high....which is not appealing to product makers. It is a shame...because it could be a really good figure, and it would still suffer the same fate.

Poser vendors will support Paul and Pauline not out of good heart or because they suddenly stopped being luddites but because now there no question of what will happen of this field if Poser falters and DAZ remains the only game in town. For them, it is a simple question of business survival.

Do you really believe there will be enough poser vendors to do that and make it succeed? The stores (here included) are getting more and more genesis and ds conent, as many content makers are converting. That is how they are surviving. They cannot wait for poser to get its act together......they tried hard for many years, it just hasn't happened....or we would have seen much greater success for figures like Dawn.

Vendors do not work for SM. If their platform is not profitable, vendors will simply move on to one that is, even if it is not their platform of choice. The whole business survival aspect falls on SM shoulders, not 3rd party. I do not expect vendors to support a platform that isn't bringing in money, regardless what company it is from. There might be loyalty among the community and fans, but vendors, not as much. They follow the money....Because it is their jobs. Nobody wants to spend weeks on something to get next to no return on it. It is extremely demotivating. And I echo what Rawn said. Dawn is a perfect example. A lot of Poser vendors showed initial support. But if a platform is not sustainable, majority of developers will dump it, and well, they have. So the chances of them supporting these new SM figures because it is a must for survival regardless if it's profitable or not? Sorry, that is not a reason. They will if the money is there, if not, they won't.

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Right now testers at RDNA admit, that there are pose and rigging issues with pauline. It is up to SM now to address it, why else do they have beta testers for? If SM won't listen, then nobody should complain about the ucoming figure bashing. All I can say is: told you so. SM just doesn't learn. let's hope fore the best. I do think, that Pauline T-stands looks acceptable and I am curious to work on her. That's a good start. and that's way more than we had in the past releases. SM must take more effort in the rigging and add an advanced JCM system like DAZ added on G3. This must be done, or SM figures will rust again in the Runtime backyard.

Advanced JCM system.....Hmmm....Yes, really helps when one of their most vocal beta testers thinks JCM's are pollution and are against it:)

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Hi guys. I have to say that Bagginsbill almost has me convinced to try out the new version of Poser. It looks like new and different things are going to be happening in the materials department, and I'm interested. Dropping the Adobe Air for the library is a huge deal.

As far as Pauline goes, I actually sort of like her, except for the lips. What I do find worrying is they repeated statements that the new figures are meant to be resources, and since the tools to fix/complete/change the rigging etc., come included with Poser, they don't see a problem with letting "unfinished" figures out into the public. The major flaw with this thinking is that the professional artist on a deadline to get the book cover turned in, does not have the time to fix or create the content they need to use this very second. The professional content vendor does not have the time either. The artists who just wants to make pictures in the evening after they get home from the day job, does not have the time, or desire. These people are going to use the figures that already have the required add-ons, ready to go, that works out of the box. I'm not going to even go into the logistical nightmare of if a character maker thinks the figure should be rigged one way, and the clothing maker has a different idea. That really needs to be standardized, or things don't "work" and people get frustrated and move on.

The other really big problem is how many people that are still using Poser 7 are going to upgrade to Poser 11? I think most everyone who is using a version before 2010 that wanted to upgrade, would have already done it. If one wanted to support the new Poser tech, they are already facing a split market from the beginning. How many new users, the ones we all want to see join our community no matter which software they prefer, are going to have the desire to make their own content, or do their own rigging? How many of them are going to move onto more user friendly software, and how many are just going to give up completely? It is in everyone's interest to make the new user's introduction into 3D as smooth and painless as possible.

The entirety of the decision to market the new figures as base resources for the users to finish up as they like, is completely mystifying to me.

Zev0 posted at 7:17PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238109

Advanced JCM system.....Hmmm....Yes, really helps when one of their most vocal beta testers thinks JCM's are pollution and are against it:)

sigh, yes. :(

@ DestinysGarden - That is because for some mystical reason they think that the majority of users are tinkerers to the level that they are. But that is what happens when you do not understand the market you are selling in. They keep adding these tools to DIY, but most people want to load, do minor tweaking and render. Now it wouldn't be an issue if the tools were simple to use and gave great results, but they are extremely outdated in design with long workflows. I read the feature list. They are adding some things that have been in Studio for a while now, yet it is hyped as new advances, with a price tag attached.

Other than the new Superfly engine and the figures, I don't see why I should I upgrade when I have Iray and Genesis for free. I have not seen any other feature that has made me want to upgrade. Oh that's the other silly argument. "Yes Daz offers all that for free but you pay for additional content". Ummm, so if you buy the new Poser and use the figures and want new content offered from vendors, do you not have to pay for it as well? I never understood that line of thinking.

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-Timberwolf- posted at 1:22PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238101

Right now testers at RDNA admit, that there are pose and rigging issues with pauline. It is up to SM now to address it, why else do they have beta testers for? If SM won't listen, then nobody should complain about the ucoming figure bashing. All I can say is: told you so. SM just doesn't learn. let's hope fore the best. I do think, that Pauline T-stands looks acceptable and I am curious to work on her. That's a good start. and that's way more than we had in the past releases. SM must take more effort in the rigging and add an advanced JCM system like DAZ added on G3. This must be done, or SM figures will rust again in the Runtime backyard.

The testers should have already figured out the rigging issues far before the Sneak Preview. It seems like they aren't objectively testing the items, then taking offense when the public points out the things they should have already caught. Properly putting your product through the motions by qualified people has benefits in the long run, especially when you end up showing the public a polished product. If all you're doing is stroking egos or you don't know what to test, you end up damaging the product when it's time to show it to the world.

Ye, I mean these figures were supposed to show what Poser figures are capable of compared to what Daz offers, since they are now the main content providers. I don't think they got the memo, or even bothered to see what G3 was capable of doing and just went on what they thought was good. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.......The real test will come when the new version goes live, and users will give their feedback. For SM's sake, users better have the "Genesis who" reaction, or it will be another few years of I want Genesis in Poser threads.....

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What I miss in DS is the dependency editor like poser has, and Poser11Pro will have that SubD morph brush for_everybody_ !!! The main difference seem to be: SM provides lousy tools, but gives you the opportunity to do a lot for yourself. - To bad, if your not skilled enough. DAZ provides great tools, but doesn't seem to want you doing anything custom - unless you become a certifyed vendor. To bad, if you don't want to be a vendor.

I know, that's said very simple, and therefore not a 100% correct, but these are the messages I understand.

True. So far the only tool Daz does not give out is the HD tools unless you are a PA. Everything else is there for users. Granted it's nice of SM to include it for all, but I am yet to see how it works compared to the Daz one, and how the Sub-D morphs will load on figures.

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Male_M3dia posted at 7:49PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238118

-Timberwolf- posted at 1:22PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238101

Right now testers at RDNA admit, that there are pose and rigging issues with pauline. It is up to SM now to address it, why else do they have beta testers for? If SM won't listen, then nobody should complain about the ucoming figure bashing. All I can say is: told you so. SM just doesn't learn. let's hope fore the best. I do think, that Pauline T-stands looks acceptable and I am curious to work on her. That's a good start. and that's way more than we had in the past releases. SM must take more effort in the rigging and add an advanced JCM system like DAZ added on G3. This must be done, or SM figures will rust again in the Runtime backyard.

The testers should have already figured out the rigging issues far before the Sneak Preview. It seems like they aren't objectively testing the items, then taking offense when the public points out the things they should have already caught. Properly putting your product through the motions by qualified people has benefits in the long run, especially when you end up showing the public a polished product. If all you're doing is stroking egos or you don't know what to test, you end up damaging the product when it's time to show it to the world.

I wonder, what those testers are doing then? What whould be your workflow in an app like Poser? I'd load a figure first and pose it (hint: P-O-S-E-R) ;) So posing issues whould be the firts thing you see. It is hard to believe, that short before a deadline, it becomes obvious: "oh crap, our figures don't bend correct."

Timberwolf - Honestly, I don't think some of the testers studied anatomy or know what to look for....If they did, these issues would have been picked up and resolved before the final product was ready. I mean you have one tester that thinks a 6 year old droopy breasted low res figure is perfect.......:) Honestly, some of them are part of the "OH WOW that looks great" crowd just because it's not from Daz, and feedback like that does not help from an objective standpoint. What they needed was testers to tell them "Well, this looks like shit, do it over". Testers who do not care about the Daz and Poser fiasco, and who will look at a figure for what it is. Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind, not ass lick all the time..It's all for the greater good.

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Zev0 posted at 7:56PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238126

Timberwolf - Honestly, I don't think half of the testers studied anatomy or know what to look for....If they did, these issues would have been picked up and resolved before the final product was ready. I mean you have one tester that thinks a 6 year old droopy breasted low res figure is perfect.......:)

I really think, you don't need to be an anotomy expert for that. Everyone of us is pretty good in judginging posing and movement of the human body. That's why art is so difficult, because we know, that the artists' audience notice very flaw. an actor knows, how difficult it is to fake body language, because the audience will notice every uncorrectness. So, when we pose a digital human mesh, we see at once, where the bendings are incorrect. Have you ever shown your Poser work-space to a non Poser user? I did that several times, and everyone-really everyone, mentioned right away all those incorrectesses in the anatomy, right away. So this is not a lack of skills at all. This is something different. So, either those beta testers don't care (Which I personally don't belief !!!) or SM doesn't care. There is still time left for fix. I am allmost praying, that they address those issues. Or please address it in an hot Fix release, at least.

Or please address it in an hot Fix release, at least

That is why rigging etc needs to be as final as possible before a figure goes live. If they can fix it without breaking anything and before mass content creation takes place then good. If not, well, it will cause a lot of headaches.

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-Timberwolf- posted at 2:30PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238123

Male_M3dia posted at 7:49PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238118

-Timberwolf- posted at 1:22PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238101

Right now testers at RDNA admit, that there are pose and rigging issues with pauline. It is up to SM now to address it, why else do they have beta testers for? If SM won't listen, then nobody should complain about the ucoming figure bashing. All I can say is: told you so. SM just doesn't learn. let's hope fore the best. I do think, that Pauline T-stands looks acceptable and I am curious to work on her. That's a good start. and that's way more than we had in the past releases. SM must take more effort in the rigging and add an advanced JCM system like DAZ added on G3. This must be done, or SM figures will rust again in the Runtime backyard.

The testers should have already figured out the rigging issues far before the Sneak Preview. It seems like they aren't objectively testing the items, then taking offense when the public points out the things they should have already caught. Properly putting your product through the motions by qualified people has benefits in the long run, especially when you end up showing the public a polished product. If all you're doing is stroking egos or you don't know what to test, you end up damaging the product when it's time to show it to the world.

I wonder, what those testers are doing then? What whould be your workflow in an app like Poser? I'd load a figure first and pose it (hint: P-O-S-E-R) ;) So posing issues whould be the firts thing you see. It is hard to believe, that short before a deadline, it becomes obvious: "oh crap, our figures don't bend correct."

Is the dependency editor for JCMs? If so, doing JCMs is dead easy in DS. Once I create my morph corrections, I can go through about 30 morph corrections by dragging and dropping in about 30 minutes. Being able to getting to the point of using a HD-type tool is know how to sculpt 1 million polys in a modeller first. Knowing how to do it the established way, subdividing and a normal map, needs to be learned if you are doing it by hand. That said, there are already people that don't have access to the DAZ tool and still can create stunning morphs just having the proper tools such as zbrush or mudbox. People have long been able to use low poly models and add subdivision and HD details to them without use of a proprietary tool.

_ I am allmost praying, that they address those issues. Or please address it in an hot Fix release, at least._

I hope so, people are complaining about the shoulders over at Rdna.

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-Timberwolf- posted at 2:33PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238123

Male_M3dia posted at 7:49PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238118

-Timberwolf- posted at 1:22PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238101

Right now testers at RDNA admit, that there are pose and rigging issues with pauline. It is up to SM now to address it, why else do they have beta testers for? If SM won't listen, then nobody should complain about the ucoming figure bashing. All I can say is: told you so. SM just doesn't learn. let's hope fore the best. I do think, that Pauline T-stands looks acceptable and I am curious to work on her. That's a good start. and that's way more than we had in the past releases. SM must take more effort in the rigging and add an advanced JCM system like DAZ added on G3. This must be done, or SM figures will rust again in the Runtime backyard.

The testers should have already figured out the rigging issues far before the Sneak Preview. It seems like they aren't objectively testing the items, then taking offense when the public points out the things they should have already caught. Properly putting your product through the motions by qualified people has benefits in the long run, especially when you end up showing the public a polished product. If all you're doing is stroking egos or you don't know what to test, you end up damaging the product when it's time to show it to the world.

I wonder, what those testers are doing then? What whould be your workflow in an app like Poser? I'd load a figure first and pose it (hint: P-O-S-E-R) ;) So posing issues whould be the firts thing you see. It is hard to believe, that short before a deadline, it becomes obvious: "oh crap, our figures don't bend correct."

When I make my body morphs, I usually spend anywhere from a few days to a week or two just posing and rendering, checking for anything that looks bad and I make note of that body area. Then I make morph corrections on those areas, add them to the figure, and test again. The problem is, if you don't know how to make a character or have a basic understanding of posing, how would do you expect to catch issues? With competing with Genesis 3 now, the very first thing I would do with the model is raise those arms. If the arm raise looks bad, then put a ticket in raise the red flag. But obviously some JCMs should go into the figure around the arms and hips/leg area because that will be where the majority of your issues will lie.

I can do that with my figures because the tech underlying the figure allows for those jcms and corrections to be projected into the clothing so the end user doesn't have to fix it. I think that's probably some of the aversion to JCMs in Poser, because if someone makes a custom shape or corrections, those have to be projected into the clothing. I don't think that feature is in the non-Pro version; but I wonder if they have something similar in the new version... it allows for more characters that are more than just a custom head morph.

But obviously some JCMs should go into the figure around the arms and hips/leg area because that will be where the majority of your issues will lie.

Pollution!!!! :) I think why people stay away from jcm's in Poser is because they do not copy across in clothing unless they are unhidden (I could be mistaken), and to look for all jcm's on a figure can be a mission. In Studio, anything that has a value, be it hidden or not, gets dynamically transferred via auto-fit, hense why jcm's are more commonly used, because it doesn't affect clothing since they are on the clothing as well.

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Zev0 posted at 2:49PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238140

But obviously some JCMs should go into the figure around the arms and hips/leg area because that will be where the majority of your issues will lie.

Pollution!!!! :)

LOL, I have fun JCMs so my character can do a slight butt giggle when they walk ;)

Ye there are a hell of a lot of benefits to jcm's. It is only an issue if the software has an issue dealing with them and if it conflicts with other content. I am currently working on a jcm only driven product type thing.

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What I miss in DS is the dependency editor

Care to elaborate? Pretty sure Daz has one. Property Hierchy perhaps?

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on a side note......since poser is still using inj/rem tech, does anyone know how many free channels there will be in this figure for making morphs?...I know one major problem with v4/m4 is that they filled up quick, and you ended up with weird things happening when various morphs shared the same channel. Plus when you loaded them, it caused alot of bloat on the resources.

Only way around this is to use the Extensible Parameters (ExP) in Studio, which added additional channels for your product. Limited channels do suck. Some products used nearly all of them such as the perfect V4 series. Would be wise if Poser had such a thing if channel limits are still an issue.

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Dependency Editor explained: Dependency editor in Poser does a simillar thing DS is doing with ERC freeze. The benefit for me in Poser is, that I have a graphic Ui to manage dependencies. So I can link e.g. morph "b" to morph "a" at a value of 0.75 and morph "c" at value: 1.00. I allways have a graph to it. that makes it more easy to me. ERC-Freeze is still cryptic to me. DAZ Tools mostley are not that intuitivley to understand. - for me, at least ;) So I am missing to have all the values that have to be in dependecy in one sight.

Well in studio you click on a parameter inside the Property Hierarchy, and all linked dependencies on a specific morph are in a drop down menu where you can add and modify. This vid shows where everything is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HKdAkxpC2s

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But does it create new additional channels? If so then cool.

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@zev:

I think they are using PMDs to make the injection files. You would select the morphs you wish to add to the file and the injection file and the pmd would be created.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSt_UCrYOcs -So, every parameter could be linked to each other. I was suggesting, to extend that to a node based system, but I wasn't heard. Maybe it is just impossible.

You can use puppeteer for that. Doesn't give you a graph, but where you mouse is located over the assigned points gives you strength variables. What do you want this node feature for? Creating animations or Pose position presets?

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Zev0 posted at 10:12PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238165

You can use puppeteer for that. Doesn't give you a graph, but where you mouse is located over the assigned point gives you variables. What do you want this node feature for? Creating animations or Pose position presets?

I was hoping, it would give you the possibility to blend parameters nicley in. So you can use it for JCMs. Don't know if that can done. I imagined to have several JCM-parameters that could be mixed and blended in with each other. A system as you know it from material nodes, bur you organize morph parameters that way instead. ***sorry, if that sounds confusing to you. I have lots of imaginations, but less of tech knowlege and more less language skills to comunicate my ideas.

_ I imagined to have several JCM-parameters that could be mixed and blended in with each other._

Can be done on the current system. At the moment I am working on something that has 8 jcm's blended in, all linked to certain bend positions. You just need to understand how the basics of how the system works, then you can basically do whatever you want.

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As the saying goes, it's not over till the fat lady sings! Lets see what we have in a week or two's time.

I think SM are more than aware how important the new figures are to the future of the software because Poser has to pose something and Daz has made it clear that from now on their figures will only work in Daz Studio. SM has to support the new figures now, it doesn't have a choice. Nerd3D has said that they will do that.

Personally I think that there are extremely good artists in the community who could have helped with the figures and who would have ensured that the sneak peak pictures had that WOW factor. Marketing fail. Too late now.

Poser has provided decent tools to enhance the figures though. HD morphing that can be injected easily. Matching centers to morphs to allow extreme morphing. I have already suggested a project group to make improvements to the figures to ensure a common standard. Hopefully we can get that of the ground.

There is years of life in V4 and M4. I was surprised to see the thread at Daz3D on the differences between V4 and and V7 turn into a debate over whether V7 provided any enhancements at all. The point that keeps on being made over again is that there is an enormous library of stuff for V4, but with new Vickys coming out every two years, all the vendors are doing is producing the same stuff over and over again for the new figures. Same Ole Same Ole. Keeps the dollars coming in I guess. I'm not sure, but If I've read it correctly bones, HD sculpting and matching centers to morphs could be applied to V4 and M4. They are already weight mapped and have a higher poly density equivalent to one sub division over V7. I don't think its a coincidence that the vast majority of celeb morphs are V4 or M4.

And of course there's the issue of Daz attempting to enforce even more control over where and how you get your future figures. Interesting times.

Slight correction there, only V4 has been fully weightmapped. M4's weightmapping is not 100%, there is still joint tweaking to be performed and corrected, far from what has been done with V4.

qaz posted at 6:11PM Sat, 14 November 2015 - #4238593

As the saying goes, it's not over till the fat lady sings! Lets see what we have in a week or two's time.

Yes.

I think SM are more than aware how important the new figures are to the future of the software because Poser has to pose something and Daz has made it clear that from now on their figures will only work in Daz Studio. SM has to support the new figures now, it doesn't have a choice. Nerd3D has said that they will do that.

Personally I think that there are extremely good artists in the community who could have helped with the figures and who would have ensured that the sneak peak pictures had that WOW factor. Marketing fail. Too late now.

Yes. There are lots of talented artists that could render the figures; however, I think the most important thing is getting vendors on board to show what could be done. Getting a major vendor on board for the preview would have went over much better.

Poser has provided decent tools to enhance the figures though. HD morphing that can be injected easily. Matching centers to morphs to allow extreme morphing. I have already suggested a project group to make improvements to the figures to ensure a common standard. Hopefully we can get that of the ground.

Marketing blurbs and how it actually works is two different things. Have you seen the HD morphs and setup yet? The matching center example had a major problem with the clothing fitting the figure unless the person neglected to transfer the joints to the clothing, which would be another marketing fail. Showing a dwarf with a bikini top falling off her isn't a good example of previewing the tech.

There is years of life in V4 and M4. I was surprised to see the thread at Daz3D on the differences between V4 and and V7 turn into a debate over whether V7 provided any enhancements at all. The point that keeps on being made over again is that there is an enormous library of stuff for V4, but with new Vickys coming out every two years, all the vendors are doing is producing the same stuff over and over again for the new figures. Same Ole Same Ole. Keeps the dollars coming in I guess.

Problem with the "there is still life in V4" and "I have a large library of V4" posts is that you haven't actually compared the differences... you just are justifying why you don't want to switch. Two seconds with raising V4's and V7's arms and you would instantly have your answer on one of the differences. That's actually comparing the figures.

I'm not sure, but If I've read it correctly bones, HD sculpting and matching centers to morphs could be applied to V4 and M4. They are already weight mapped and have a higher poly density equivalent to one sub division over V7. I don't think its a coincidence that the vast majority of celeb morphs are V4 or M4.

It's been noted that lower poly figures are easier to pose, rig, weightmap and animate. Many artists that work with zbrush can do amazing work with low poly figures with subdivision. Working with lower poly figures requires a shift in your workflow, most times people use high poly meshes as a crutch to make things. You make good characters once you learn how to manipulate a low poly cage.

And of course there's the issue of Daz attempting to enforce even more control over where and how you get your future figures.

Very incorrect. They are protecting the content that is sold which many a lot of content companies do already. But considering the DRM being included in the next version of poser, DAZ shouldn't be the one singled out in this conversation.

Male_M3dia posted at 12:55AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238619

But considering the DRM being included in the next version of poser, DAZ shouldn't be the one singled out in this conversation.

False. P11 has been announced to have a fully offline, never-phone-home activation procedure so it is a big step back from the sinister GameDev scheme (and, certainly, a huge political message against trends being enacted by DAZ).

chaecuna posted at 7:13PM Sat, 14 November 2015 - #4238622

Male_M3dia posted at 12:55AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238619

But considering the DRM being included in the next version of poser, DAZ shouldn't be the one singled out in this conversation.

False. P11 has been announced to have a fully offline, never-phone-home activation procedure so it is a big step back from the sinister GameDev scheme (and, certainly, a huge political message against trends being enacted by DAZ).

In which the licensing server is not done... so true. And DRM is DRM. It doesn't matter what features it has, it's still DRM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

Most of these figures have their own problems. V7s problem other than a deformed hip area (she wouldn't be able to have children) is that she is too low res. That is why all the V7 characters look the same. And its no good complaining and saying you need to combine HD morphing and sub div because DAZ WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO DO THAT. Normal maps are no use as they can't be altered.

Do please read the comments here: and here

I think Erogenesis has it right, certain areas of the figure should be denser poly. I look forward to seeing his new figure Lali. I would point out that the new Poser figures are low poly as well, but Poser has the tools for anyone to include HD details. We will have to see whether they work or not.

qaz posted at 6:17AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238686

Most of these figures have their own problems. V7s problem other than a deformed hip area (she wouldn't be able to have children) is that she is too low res. That is why all the V7 characters look the same. And its no good complaining and saying you need to combine HD morphing and sub div because DAZ WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO DO THAT. Normal maps are no use as they can't be altered.

Do please read the comments here: and here

I think Erogenesis has it right, certain areas of the figure should be denser poly. I look forward to seeing his new figure Lali. I would point out that the new Poser figures are low poly as well, but Poser has the tools for anyone to include HD details. We will have to see whether they work or not.

As I said if you know how to manipulate a low rez figure and the subd cage you can make whatever you want. Having more polygons doesn't make a person a better artist when most times all you are doing is moving mesh, not adding minute details. As far as the hip, comments like that are totally subjective and if you don't like a body part, then you would take it to a modeler and fix it the way you like. It wouldn't matter if it was high rez or not, you're just moving the polls around. Some forum comments you do have take with a grain of salt because most people haven't bothered to look at actual photo references or an anatomy book and going by what they think is right.. and usually they aren't; there are just too many variations of the human form to make statements as such.

The HD on the females don't bother me that much. You can tell the areas where the details are from the promo, but most importantly they aren't sculpting all kinds of muscle and wrinkles on the girls because that would take away from the resulting renders and the girls aren't presented in a way where you need massive amounts of body detail. When you consider photos of women are often airbrushed of detail, I wouldn't go crazy with HD on females anyway. The guys on the other hand need it for abs, muscle definition, etc. If you buy the male HD items you see a lot more work on them than the women.

Just like the unflattering images i've seen of superfly and the figures so far, it seems like people will not have a grasp on HD morphs as well. I'm envisioning a bunch of morphs that look no better than a stock V4 made with dials, but blowing out the memory in a scene by people choosing just to move the nose and cheek around on a 500K poly subdivided figure because they haven't got the basics on custom character development.

Male_M3dia posted at 1:09PM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238623

In which the licensing server is not done... so true. And DRM is DRM. It doesn't matter what features it has, it's still DRM.

The discussion on RDNA about the program registration procedure is clear and unequivocal.

You sound somewhat.... "upset". Why? anything related to the lot of Studio users posts on many forums (including DAZ) about reducing buys, postponing them, wait-and-see, asking for refunds? the bottom line is starting to be hit, doesn't it? this is one of the evil effects of DRM: DRM hurts sales more than warez do.

Its not about minute detail at all. The human face is bumpy !! If you are going to be able to attempt to reproduce that you need HD. Show me any V7 with any character at all.

chaecuna posted at 7:40AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238692

Male_M3dia posted at 1:09PM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238623

In which the licensing server is not done... so true. And DRM is DRM. It doesn't matter what features it has, it's still DRM.

The discussion on RDNA about the program registration procedure is clear and unequivocal.

You sound somewhat.... "upset". Why? anything related to the lot of Studio users posts on many forums (including DAZ) about reducing buys, postponing them, wait-and-see, asking for refunds? the bottom line is starting to be hit, doesn't it? this is one of the evil effects of DRM: DRM hurts sales more than warez do.

LOL, not upset at all. I'm just stating what it is. DRM is DRM. I think more people are more upset trying to say that Poser's DRM isn't DRM or making it excuses for it going to be so much better, especially in light of the thread on that same forum where that DRM was deactivating user's registrations even though they were connected to the web. And they are certainly more forgiving when SM neglected to tell them that the DRM was even in the Game Dev product and the only way people found out was when the deactivations occurred and they finally admitted it. Meanwhile DAZ outlines what is coming, and is transparent about the fact that it is coming, and people (particularly those that aren't even buying the content) are ready to get the pitchforks.

When you objectively look at both products, they're doing pretty much the same types of DRM, except one does content and the other does the application, because that's what each sells. I doubt SM's method is truly permanent; if you have to update the app, you will most likely have to validate your license to get the download. And like other "issues" this will blow over like everything else. DRM hasn't stopped people from buying zbrush, adobe, modo, marvelous designer, tv show episodes from amazon, netflix, etc. It's not going to stop the average customer from buying content from DAZ so it's really a storm in a teacup.

qaz posted at 7:57AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238693

Its not about minute detail at all. The human face is bumpy !! If you are going to be able to attempt to reproduce that you need HD. Show me any V7 with any character at all.

For that matter, show me any V4 that has the bumps under the mouth and chin area. It has way more polys but no one bothers to make a custom morph with them. But if you manipulate the mesh in both you can get more detail. Lower poly morphs require you to exaggerate the cage more so the subdivision smooths the mesh to give you a more bumpy detail. If you're doing it like people in the industry then you use your modelling tool to make the higher details and the normal map. The main advantage of DAZ's HD morphs is that you can mix them together or take them at different strengths and they are UV independent. Not much has been said about the details of poser's tool so if it doesn't have those features, you're better off subdividing and using a normal or displacement anyway.

qaz posted at 4:22PM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238693

Its not about minute detail at all. The human face is bumpy !! If you are going to be able to attempt to reproduce that you need HD.

Disagree. You can easily get that level of detail with normal/bump or displacement maps without HD morphs. Are you just assuming or have you actually tried? I can show you examples of ridiculous face details that have no HD morphs, which are strictly driven by maps. People use HD differently. Some use it just for subtle details, others use it for extreme changes. All depends on their preference, product type and whether they want the details driven by materials, or via morphs.

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So, I know I just came back to the world of Poser and just started the world of DAZ Studio, and that fact will likely make a lot of people not take my opinion on any of this seriously. That's fine, but here it is anyway.

No Poser/DAZ figure has ever looked real. It's not that they can't do it, mind you. You can get a lot of realism out of 10k polys in a real-time rendering engine like Unreal 4, so they could clearly do it with offline rendering, and especially offline PBR rendering like Cycles or something. They just don't want to, because realism is not what people buy. They buy a sort of stylized or idealized pretty.

Just look at the picture of Scarlett Johansson posted in this thread next to a picture of any Poser or DAZ figure from the same angle with similar lighting, and you will see what I mean. Scarlett, as beautiful as she is, will look haggard next to the render, precisely because minute facial detail (which could have been included with normal or displacement maps) was intentionally omitted. Better still, look at any of the celebrity look-alike models out there on the web next to their real life counterparts, and you'll see just how not-real the renders look. The little details are omitted because they tend to age the face, particularly on women. It's a truth that has been taught to portrait artists since the beginning of the genre.

When people say they want their figures to be realistic, 9 out of 10 times what they mean is that they want them to be believable. They want them to have a likeness of the person they represent if they are doing a portrait type piece, not a 1:1 recreation. They want plausibility, because as we all know, all art is abstraction to some degree, even in 3d.

I'm not saying it can't be very good. Just look at the CG Arnold in Terminator Genisys. That's bloody close to looking real (though in truth the hair especially leaves something to be desired). The figures, hair, clothes, etc. that we have to work with is nowhere near that level. It's not even on the level of the Neo vs. Agent Smith fight scene in The Matrix Reloaded. It's closer to the CG Superman that catches the airliner by the nose in Superman Returns, and you'll notice how far that particular effect was kept from the camera.

I love Poser and the DAZ figures, but they are not realistic.

I love Poser and the DAZ figures, but they are not realistic.

Again that is opinion. All depends on you rendering skills, and if ultra realism is your goal. In terms of physical structure, Genesis 2 and 3 can easily pass as realistic if rendered by somebody who can achieve it. The again, most are aiming for semi realism, and it's good enough for them. To achieve ultra realism, you need to understand mathematically how all materials work in relation to lighting, having all settings tweaked to perfection, and only use shapes aimed for realism. Hell, some movie studios still can't even get realism right. Here is a render of Darius 6 for G2M. Geometry wise, Genesis is very capable of emulating a realistic structure. All small details such as bending and rigging contribute to the end result.

the-man-of-the-dance-first-position-iray-2015_730_auto.jpg

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Zev0 posted at 11:36AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238739

Again I disagree. All depends on you rendering skills, and if ultra realism is your goal. In terms of physical structure, Genesis 2 and 3 can easily pass as realistic if rendered by somebody who can achieve it.

That looks good, but it does not look real. I mean no offense by that. Just look at the eyes. If you got a photo of a person to have that effect on the eyes, it would have to be retouched. It's just not what people look like.

Here's another example for the Reality site. Again, it looks good (the best example on that site, imo), but it does not look real. Matthew McConaughey does not look like this.

He looks like this.

Also note that the last two images are retouched for magazines, and they still don't have the somewhat fake look of even very good CG.

CG cannot create truly realistic skin. Perhaps it will in the future, but it can't yet.

Well in my opinion currently you can get very close.

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This was done in 2008 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYgLFt5wfP4#t=13

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Zev0 posted at 11:55AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238743

Well in my opinion currently you can get very close.

There's no chance that was done in Poser or DAZ Studio though.

Zev0 posted at 11:58AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238744

This was done in 2008 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYgLFt5wfP4#t=13

I've seen that before, and yes, it's very good. You have to admit though, it's light years beyond what Poser and DAZ Studio are capable of.

That was a response to "CG cannot create truly realistic skin. Perhaps it will in the future, but it can't yet."

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Xatren posted at 8:03PM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238748

Zev0 posted at 11:58AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238744

This was done in 2008 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYgLFt5wfP4#t=13

I've seen that before, and yes, it's very good. You have to admit though, it's light years beyond what Poser and DAZ Studio are capable of.

Well for the price you pay and what you get, I say it's still damn impressive. And I bet in the hands of a high end CG artist specialist, they can squeeze those realistic details out of what we currently have. Hell, I have seen some current users get very close. All depends on your skill level. CG realism in general is still an ongoing process. I believe it will eventually get to a stage that is accessable to most were people won't be able to tell the difference anymore. I for one find an impression of realism more artistically appealing than actual realism. Actual realism is so boring, you see it everyday around you:) Eg if somebody posts an actual photo in the galleries, 100% real, nobody cares:)

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Zev0, of course it can be very good. I said in the post you disagreed with that it can be very good. It still can't be completely realistic. Look into the Uncanny Valley effect. CG may be beginning to scale the far side of that valley, but it hasn't gotten back out of it yet.

As for your reply being to my saying that CG can't be completely realistic yet, that's not what you specifically quoted out of my initial post to disagree with. In the future, perhaps you can say what you're disagreeing with, rather than expecting people to know that you meant something other than what you said?

There's a good thread over at DAZ pointing out that Photorealism isn't really that important - if you want a picture of somebody there really isn't any scarcity of them of any type, pose, or costume. The point of 3D rendering is not to take photos, that's what camera's are for. At least for 99.99% of us, realistic is all we are looking for, not photo-realism. Which half the time someone removes with Photoshop editing anyway.

My point is, from a technical standpoint, regarding the software and figures and PBR engines we have access to, realistic results is possible eg same results that can be achieved with those high end examples. Somebody just has to create the skin and character. But that is not to say the figures are not capable of doing so. That is the part I disagree with.

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diogenese19348 posted at 12:19PM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238759

There's a good thread over at DAZ pointing out that Photorealism isn't really that important - if you want a picture of somebody there really isn't any scarcity of them of any type, pose, or costume. The point of 3D rendering is not to take photos, that's what camera's are for. At least for 99.99% of us, realistic is all we are looking for, not photo-realism. Which half the time someone removes with Photoshop editing anyway.

This is exactly what I am saying, if you change the word 'realistic' to the word 'believable'. For what it's worth, I think we are using the two words to mean the same thing, dio. Cameras made photo realism in portrait painting redundant, and if I want completely real documentation of what is, I'll still go with a camera, as will pretty much everyone else. I used CG when I want something that reality can't give me, and that includes Poser & DAZ Studio. They give me an idealized representation of reality, something prettier than what is, and that's very cool.

To reiterate, I love Poser and the DAZ figures. They let artists of all skill levels or with steep time constraints make some very cool stuff. I love working with them personally (in fact, I am planning a game using pre-rendered sprites made with the generation 6 stuff). I just think it's silly to pretend that they actually look like real people, when what they look like is more akin to classical Greek sculpture with believable skins. It's stylized a bit (minor anatomical detail removed as was pointed out when talking about Scarlett's face), idealized (nothing wrong with that), and just accurate enough to be believable, which is what they need to be for the customer base they are aimed at.

Zev0 posted at 12:31PM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238760

But that is not to say the figures are not capable of doing so. That is the part I disagree with.

You should re-read the post then. I said at the outset that they are completely capable of doing much higher levels of realism, but that such things don't sell, because all those added and admittedly minor details just tend to age a character (particularly a female) whereas the vast majority of DAZ's customers seem to want an idealized sort of pretty.

I read that thread and while I appreciate the sentiment I tend to disagree. Billions and billions of dollars are generated annually through Photorealistic renders and render capabilities. There is a strong industry for both stylistic and realistic rendering capability globally, which grows strongly each year in many, many forms of media. And just to add photography never truly did kill out photoreal artists either. The concepts discussed seem familiar from what I was taught at art school, that photography freed an artist into a realm of expressionism as the tedium of recreating "real" life was now taken over by the amazing "Camera Obscura". And while the concept did create a lot of shit modern art (mostly from my teachers), realism is still very alive in commercial art and even in arty art. And a lot of the reason is that art is a manipulation of what's possible in reality, so taking reality as a base you can move forward to a super reality, such as like you would see in Jurassic World or Furious 7. Stylised imagery influences a viewer in an entirely different way.

And as far as DS/Poser photo real characters you can definitely see a rapid progression since these programs were founded. Especially with Daz3D figures. And while things are not 100% perfect yet they are definitely progressing in the right direction. And I would expect the uncanny valley to be closed further and further in the coming years.

The concept that realism doesn't sell is not very solid. I believe what you're getting into is the concept of idealised beauty which is not restricted to just CG.

Thought I'd put V4 through it's paces to see what it could do. The morph shown hasn't come within a mile of a Vendor. It's all mine. I do not have access to Zbrush. Few people can afford it anyway.

The lighting isn't the same so features are more washed out. Even with the higher density mesh fine detail is not possible ( at least until Poser 11 comes out). However you can get the main bumps with V4 I am saying V7 is too low res to produce this sort of stuff. Scarlett is a popular character - show me a Genesis version.

scarlett test.jpg

qaz posted at 4:36AM Mon, 16 November 2015 - #4238829

Thought I'd put V4 through it's paces to see what it could do. The morph shown hasn't come within a mile of a Vendor. It's all mine. I do not have access to Zbrush. Few people can afford it anyway.

The lighting isn't the same so features are more washed out. Even with the higher density mesh fine detail is not possible ( at least until Poser 11 comes out). However you can get the main bumps with V4 I am saying V7 is too low res to produce this sort of stuff. Scarlett is a popular character - show me a Genesis version.

Once again, all you did was move mesh without making actual detail. It's not necessary to show a genesis version, because it still wouldn't convince you that learning how manipulating the low poly mesh would produce the same morph. That's what the industry is doing and really a waste of time to convince people that already have their mind set. That's why I feel people will get these HD tools and make morphs that don't require high amounts of polygons and make scenes much larger than actually required.

You could have easily made that detail bump in v4 as a MCM of the smile with the standard brush, pinch, then smoothing the crease; the polygons were there to do it. The issue would be to link that correction in which the best way would have been to make ExP to link it in without overwriting existing channels. But that's one of the major advantages of using Genesis over v4, adding morphs, MCMs, and JCMs to the figure (activated with a particular morph) without making channels.

Of course I've added detail. Check the area around the eyes where it matters. I cannot as yet apply fine details with the tools I have (other than a displacement map) I couldn't care less what the industry is doing. I do care what is available in Daz and Poser. It seems to me your contention is that the tools are available but all the Daz Studio users are either too ignorant or too talent less to exploit them. I find that hard to believe. Put up or shut up. Show me the evidence. Show me a tutorial on how to do it. Show me all these V7s that look like something other than a V7.

qaz posted at 6:31AM Mon, 16 November 2015 - #4238859

Of course I've added detail. Check the area around the eyes where it matters. I cannot as yet apply fine details with the tools I have (other than a displacement map) I couldn't care less what the industry is doing. I do care what is available in Daz and Poser. It seems to me your contention is that the tools are available but all the Daz Studio users are either too ignorant or too talent less to exploit them. I find that hard to believe. Put up or shut up. Show me the evidence. Show me a tutorial on how to do it. Show me all these V7s that look like something other than a V7.

The move brush is not detail. Sorry. You've moved mesh that's all. I stand by what I've said.

Razor42 posted at 5:44AM Mon, 16 November 2015 - #4238792

The concept that realism doesn't sell is not very solid.

I meant to the Poser & DAZ Studio ecosystem. Nothing offered to that market has been truly realistic as of yet. Sorry if that was not clear.

I believe what you're getting into is the concept of idealised beauty which is not restricted to just CG.

Not really, no.

Xatren posted at 6:49AM Mon, 16 November 2015 - #4238862

Not really, no.

Well, perhaps it's tangentially related. I just want to make sure that it is clear that it's not only about feminine ideal beauty. It effects all of the Poser and DAZ living creature models, human, dragon, or whatever else they may be. My personal opinion is that it's done to increase their appeal.

"Thought I'd put V4 through it's paces to see what it could do. The morph shown hasn't come within a mile of a Vendor. It's all mine. I do not have access to Zbrush. Few people can afford it anyway."

Hi sorry.. but no amount of HD morphing or polygons would have helped the V4 "Scarlet J" you posted because you are still SORELY missing: sub surface Scattering. You have eyes that have an obvious painted on highlight You have 1990's era transmapped hair with no stray strands and that is clearly intersecting her ear and I doubt that was rendered in a properly used PBR with an IBL light source.

All this Nerdy Mcnerd technobabble about HD morphs mean Nothing as Long as people keep ignoring the items I just mentioned in their quest for "realism" or "believability" in poser/Daz.

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Xatren posted at 8:37AM Mon, 16 November 2015 - #4238748

Zev0 posted at 11:58AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238744

This was done in 2008 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYgLFt5wfP4#t=13

I've seen that before, and yes, it's very good. You have to admit though, it's light years beyond what Poser and DAZ Studio are capable of.

Not since DS added Iray it isn't.

wolf359 posted at 9:24AM Mon, 16 November 2015 - #4238882

"Thought I'd put V4 through it's paces to see what it could do. The morph shown hasn't come within a mile of a Vendor. It's all mine. I do not have access to Zbrush. Few people can afford it anyway."

Hi sorry.. but no amount of HD morphing or polygons would have helped the V4 "Scarlet J" you posted because you are still SORELY missing: sub surface Scattering. You have eyes that have an obvious painted on highlight You have 1990's era transmapped hair with no stray strands and that is clearly intersecting her ear and I doubt that was rendered in a properly used PBR with an IBL light source.

All this Nerdy Mcnerd technobabble about HD morphs mean Nothing as Long as people keep ignoring the items I just mentioned in their quest for "realism" or "believability" in poser/Daz.

You lot are so sensitive here. This was a discussion about figures not lighting. I note that you lot are are high on verbosity and very low on actual examples. If you can do better then lets see it - show us all. Talk is cheap.

And for the record it WAS done in a PBR with SSS. The "obvious painted on highlight" your 'trained eye' has spotted is a reflection of a mesh light. So now come on SHOW ME WHAT YOU CAN DO !!!!

First of all your example lacks the eye for fine detail. Your pupils are way to big compared to the photo reference. Your nose isn't even the same. Neither is the ears. Neither is the center gap of the lips. Neither is the teeth. If you cannot pick up on simple things like that, you will never be able to mimic a realistic face structure. HD won't help you in this regard if the basics are overlooked, basics that can be resolved without HD. Now can we drop this argument please? This thread discussion is between Genesis and new Poser figures. Want to talk about hyper realism, start a new thread. Thanks.

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Zev0 posted at 11:55AM Mon, 16 November 2015 - #4238925

First of all your example lacks the eye for fine detail. Your pupils are way to big compared to the photo reference. Your nose isn't even the same. Neither is the ears. Neither is the center gap of the lips. Neither is the teeth. If you cannot pick up on simple things like that, you will never be able to mimic a realistic face structure. HD won't help you in this regard if the basics are overlooked, basics that can be resolved without HD. Now can we drop this argument please? This thread discussion is between Genesis and new Poser figures. Want to talk about hyper realism, start a new thread. Thanks.

I was in a rush to try it out. Don't disagree on your comments re details. Again put up or shut up. Either show me you can do better with V7 or go away. You are just hot air. And I am on topic. The point I was making was that all the figures have issues. The question is whether Low res figures such as V7 and indeed the new Pauline by all accounts have problems in this area. As far as criticizing my eye for detail - I've seen your products and all I can say is "People in glass houses ....."

How about you actually get the G3F Base yourself which is free, and see for yourself. V7 is just a shape for the base.

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When designing characters it is important to use the right tools for the right job. HD morphs are great, they can add alot of details. But they are wasted for things like fine bumps and skin and small wrinkles. For that the right tools are bump/displacement/normal maps. Those types of details should not be modeled into the figure. It will not add any realism to the render to have them modeled. Those are skin details which are part of the skin texture.

The new capacities for HD morphs are exciting in what they can add to a character, but like all things, they should be used wisely, where they have the proper impact.

qaz posted at 2:57PM Mon, 16 November 2015 - #4238929

Zev0 posted at 11:55AM Mon, 16 November 2015 - #4238925

First of all your example lacks the eye for fine detail. Your pupils are way to big compared to the photo reference. Your nose isn't even the same. Neither is the ears. Neither is the center gap of the lips. Neither is the teeth. If you cannot pick up on simple things like that, you will never be able to mimic a realistic face structure. HD won't help you in this regard if the basics are overlooked, basics that can be resolved without HD. Now can we drop this argument please? This thread discussion is between Genesis and new Poser figures. Want to talk about hyper realism, start a new thread. Thanks.

I was in a rush to try it out. Don't disagree on your comments re details. Again put up or shut up. Either show me you can do better with V7 or go away. You are just hot air. And I am on topic. The point I was making was that all the figures have issues. The question is whether Low res figures such as V7 and indeed the new Pauline by all accounts have problems in this area. As far as criticizing my eye for detail - I've seen your products and all I can say is "People in glass houses ....."

Before you start trying to say V4 can give realistic renders better than V7 you might try rendering with final render settings for your GI calculations, decent lights, and decent hair. All those artifacts on the face detract from everything.

qaz posted at 11:04AM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4238929

Zev0 posted at 11:55AM Mon, 16 November 2015 - #4238925

First of all your example lacks the eye for fine detail. Your pupils are way to big compared to the photo reference. Your nose isn't even the same. Neither is the ears. Neither is the center gap of the lips. Neither is the teeth. If you cannot pick up on simple things like that, you will never be able to mimic a realistic face structure. HD won't help you in this regard if the basics are overlooked, basics that can be resolved without HD. Now can we drop this argument please? This thread discussion is between Genesis and new Poser figures. Want to talk about hyper realism, start a new thread. Thanks.

I was in a rush to try it out. Don't disagree on your comments re details. Again put up or shut up. Either show me you can do better with V7 or go away. You are just hot air. And I am on topic. The point I was making was that all the figures have issues. The question is whether Low res figures such as V7 and indeed the new Pauline by all accounts have problems in this area. As far as criticizing my eye for detail - I've seen your products and all I can say is "People in glass houses ....."

Qaz, what are you asking for? If you have some kind of personal point you need to make, then do so. But so far I can't make out what that point is exactly. Strangely the only people who think V7 has no advantages over V4 are the people still using V4. The best use for HD is not creating skin pores or imperfection unless you like super dense meshes that bring the average system to it's knees. It would be the equivalent of using mesh to define the threads in clothing. I would hardly describe G3F or Pauline as low res meshes anyway. You're coming across as an ardent Poser user who has been listening to all of the people talking down G3F and taking their criticism at face value without looking at the other side or the actual people who use and love the figures. If everything you're saying is true let me ask why do you think G3F has had one of the highest take up rates for a figure from both customers and vendors in this segment.

You want to see variation in the G3F/V7 mesh try some of these: Example 01 Example 2 Example 3 Example 4 Example 5 Example 6 Example 7 Example 8 Example 9 and there are 100s more.

All my thoughts of Pauline went out the window when somebody can morph her into Matthew McConaughey she is a credit to SM.

Anyway good to see you all getting along :-) unless of course I have missed something.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

bhoins posted at 9:22AM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4238892

Not since DS added Iray it isn't.

iRay is very good. It's not Renderman though.

"iRay is very good. It's not Renderman though."

For the usual & expected purposes in a free program like Daz studio ( Stills), Iray does not need to be RenderMan. renderman is a professional CG production pipeline tool used in movies such as: Ant-Man, Avengers: Age of Ultron,
Cinderella, Ex Machina, Fantastic Four, Fast and Furious 7, Good Dinosaur, The Hunger Games: Mockingjay, Part 2, Inside Out, Jupiter Ascending, Jurassic World, Mad Max: Fury Road, Man From U.N.C.L.E., The Martian, Seventh Son, Ted 2, Terminator Genisys, Tomorrowland,

just to name a few.

for the Price ,Iray in DS is a Great Value.

Certainly cheaper than hiring Industrial Light & magic.

or even paying $175 USD to upgrade from poser pro 2014 to poser 11. Just to get access to a "poserized" version of another free render engine that I have been using for Daz/poser content for the past year ( Blender s Cycles).

My website

YouTube Channel

So if Poser 11 is available now I guess we will see the final Pauline. From the image the lips are lookin better in the SuperFly render :-) The peak is back

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

@wolf359 You can get Renderman 20 the current flagship free on a noncommercial basis. Same price as Daz Iray. Research, education or just a ordinary hobbyist minding his own business. Full version No limits in software, no watermark either. Of course I got it a few months before they extended such a generous offer which is the story of my life, I was a little ticked at first, although I would come unstuck anyway as would be using commercial. There is quite a few companies doing this now some of the best software in the world for free on the grounds if you master it and turn it to income you agreed will do the right thing and throw them a few bucks for the paid version in some cases quite a few bucks. Seems the more complex the software like node based compositing and editing the 30 trial days are over they give it free to learn and dabble.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

wolf359 posted at 10:14AM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239064

For the usual & expected purposes in a free program like Daz studio ( Stills), Iray does not need to be RenderMan.

I'm well aware of what Renderman is. We learned a good bit about it when I was getting my degree. It's also available for free for anyone to use for personal or educational purposes these days.

All that being said, nobody implied that DAZ Studio level stuff needs access to Renderman. All I said was that iRay is not Renderman, in response to someone's assertion that work like this isn't light years beyond what is possible in DAZ Studio.

Once again, for the record, I like Poser and DAZ figures,and I think iRay produces some very nice visuals, but pretending the limitations aren't there doesn't make those limitations go away.

I'm going to keep my mouth shut about Pauline. Maybe it's just me. Let's see, what others think.

Well G3F she definitely ain't. SM figures still suffer from rubber bends. I mean come on now. It's 2015. Is this supposed to showcase Posers figure tech? I actually feel sorry for users who have been waiting for the next best thing, because these figures are not them. Also where the is the content? I thought content is king yet there is not one product on sale. Great launch. At this point I feel SM are simply incapable of delivering a mainstream quality figure for their users. This was their chance to prove they could and they f#@! it up as usual. How are developers supposed to get excited about this? Rant over....

My Renderosity Store

If DAZ could finally decide to offer their SubD morph tool to everybody, not only to certifyed vendors, i'd be ready to join the "daz" side of the force now.

Who knows, maybe they might change their minds now that SM is distributing their version of it.

My Renderosity Store

Zev0 posted at 11:12AM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239088

Who knows, maybe they might change their minds now that SM is distributing their version of it.

I'm thinking along the same lines.

I've been quiet during this whole thing, I'm just a lowly DAZ studio user with no real horse in the race. But I keep hoping to God, Poser users get a truly usable new figure they can enjoy. Then maybe DAZ would stop being seen as the evil empire and DAZ Studio users as mindless minions. I have nothing but respect for most Poser users and see many great renders from that side. However, not one render of the new Poser figures shows any real promise in my eyes.

With a lot !!! of effort, you can get something of Pauline. But why do I allways have to put so much effort in it to get something decent? But why isn't it there right from the start? -Pauline looked better if you scale down her chest to 95%. -Remorph her arms along the z-axis. Her arms are to thin in z-axis. -Genitals have to be reshaped completley new. -Soften her Frankenstein chin. Then someone has to do a re-rigging of her shoulders and her arms. She suffers from the notorious SmithMicro elbows. That elbow problem has been on since the release of Miki1020, went on to Sydney, Alyson, Roxie and now finally Pauline.

The face handles are nice and the mesh topography looks all right to me. I miss the Pelvis group, that became so usefull with Roxie. She is no empty canvas and she will not be a V4 killer at all. Darn !!! Now I've said something.

Well, speaking as someone that just bought back in to Poser with a deeply discounted Poser Pro 2012 ($103), I am happy that I bought that instead of shelling out for Poser Pro 11. I am very disappointed with Pauline. The elbow in the posted pic is unforgivable, and they should fix it asap. The shoulder is a little ballooned as well, but that's not as urgent a thing to fix. How bad is Paul?

I truly hope that the issue with the elbow in that pic is just due to some hidden option Zev0 didn't see (maybe that dynamic joint recentering thing could help?), but I think that's very unlikely. He knows what he's doing. I'm beginning to think it's Smith Micro that doesn't.

The elbow in the posted pic is unforgivable, and they should fix it asap. The shoulder is a little ballooned as well, but that's not as urgent a thing to fix. How bad is Paul?

Agree. Things like this should have been resolved within the base before release. Now all content creators will have to fix these issues themselves before focusing on what they want to create, if they want to support the figure. SM lacks decent quality control. Simple as that. Hell if users can pick up these things and they can't, then there is something seriously wrong here. With regards to Paul, he isn't released yet so maybe with enough complaining they will fix him, but it's females people really want, and it's Pauline that should have been addressed. And that pic I posted is Pauline out of the box.

My Renderosity Store

@LPR001 yes I have known about The free license of PR renderman for years. But as is the case with it As well as other paid engines, Like mental ray or Vray from Chaos group.

They are only truly relevant to end users who can either create their engine specific Shaders themselves or have a competent third party create a bridge that converts materials for them. Daz has done this with its implementation of IRay for DS

@Zevo I agree.. but to be fair SM has now officially stated that the new figures are a “merchant resource” so the plan is to have the content “crowd sourced” by the various members of the user community. Lets wait and how this will differ from Sydney,simon, Alison ,Ryan etc. etc. etc.

My website

YouTube Channel

-Timberwolf- posted at 10:39PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239119

Really a V4 killer?

It's supposed to be a G3 killer:) But yes, it is sad they are still trying to compete with a 10 year old figure. I am just extremely frustrated at the effort involved with these new figures.

My Renderosity Store

There are 9 just released products for Pauline in Rendo marketplace, many of them developer's oriented. For the first time, I see third party traction on SM figures. Apparently, the nightmare of a market completely monopolized by DAZ and captive in the cloud is spurring content providers to action. "The more you tighten your grip...".

Ah so content finally showed up. Let's see how well they do.

My Renderosity Store

chaecuna posted at 3:30PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239123

captive in the cloud

There's no "cloud" in DS.

chaecuna posted at 3:27PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239123

There are 9 just released products for Pauline in Rendo marketplace, many of them developer's oriented. For the first time, I see third party traction on SM figures. Apparently, the nightmare of a market completely monopolized by DAZ and captive in the cloud is spurring content providers to action. "The more you tighten your grip...".

Now my boss wants to know what's so funny that I'm cracking up at my desk.

Seriously. Let's see this hot list tomorrow of those 9 items before you do the rallying cry and see if the public will pony up for Pauline-oriented goods or will Vickie 7 continue to toss her head into the wind cooing "If you're going to do a competition, you have actually show you want to compete."

Ye this will blow over..Everybody was so anti Daz when Dawn content showed up at launch, screaming V4 Killer!!! and well, end result is always the same......Also I wouldn't even call this traction. Let's see how long this "traction" lasts. My bet is I give it 4 months at most. After that, the usual will happen.....When you do this long enough you never read into these initial signs too deeply. Always look at the trend over a longer period of time to see how sustainable a figure is. In 4 months if there is still around 5-8 products released daily I will call it traction. And no, freebies do not count:)

My Renderosity Store

chaecuna posted at 5:31PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239123

There are 9 just released products for Pauline in Rendo marketplace, many of them developer's oriented. For the first time, I see third party traction on SM figures. Apparently, the nightmare of a market completely monopolized by DAZ and captive in the cloud is spurring content providers to action. "The more you tighten your grip...".

You made a funny!

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

RHaseltine posted at 11:40PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239139

chaecuna posted at 3:30PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239123

captive in the cloud

There's no "cloud" in DS.

My DAZ 3D Library\data\cloud\SKUNUMBER\runtime\textures\ARTISTNAME\PRODUCTNAME notice the "CLOUD" directory name.

Come on, a document tagged "Evil Plans for World Domination" is what I would expect in a "Pinky and the Brain" episode, not in real life; for further info, see "freudian slip". Next time you are looking for a name of a directory that does not give away your plans use a GUID.

Ameesa posted at 11:47PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239089

Zev0 posted at 11:12AM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239088

Who knows, maybe they might change their minds now that SM is distributing their version of it.

I'm thinking along the same lines.

I've been quiet during this whole thing, I'm just a lowly DAZ studio user with no real horse in the race. But I keep hoping to God, Poser users get a truly usable new figure they can enjoy. **Then maybe DAZ would stop being seen as the evil empire and DAZ Studio users as mindless minions. ** I have nothing but respect for most Poser users and see many great renders from that side. However, not one render of the new Poser figures shows any real promise in my eyes.

Thats only on the forums. I know loads of poser users, even some vendors and they dont give a dime what program I render in. Well I'm not upgrading my poser this time. I dont use it anymore so...Instead I picked up M7 pro and he rocks!!

chaecuna posted at 11:09AM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239160

RHaseltine posted at 11:40PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239139

chaecuna posted at 3:30PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239123

captive in the cloud

There's no "cloud" in DS.

My DAZ 3D LibrarydatacloudSKUNUMBERruntimetexturesARTISTNAMEPRODUCTNAME notice the "CLOUD" directory name.

Come on, a document tagged "Evil Plans for World Domination" is what I would expect in a "Pinky and the Brain" episode, not in real life; for further info, see "freudian slip". Next time you are looking for a name of a directory that does not give away your plans use a GUID.

Lol, gawd you make me laugh sometimes. Don't put your hands in a Dyson AirBlade you might lose them chaecuna!

Well, for what it's worth, I too believe DAZ will go cloud based for their content, just not with the model everyone seems to be thinking. All software companies are trying since Adobe proved it was viable, and the CG world is at the center of it. My company now pays for Autodesk entertainment creation suite subs and Adobe CC subs for the people that deal with the creative end (yay for me).

I personally think they are planning subscription based content, letting people pay a flat fee per month for X dollars (or ikely, points) worth of downloads, and pay extra for more. Maybe tiered subscriptions, with more points for higher levels of monthly fee, etc. That's just my speculation though.

However, anyone saying the cloud isn't coming in one form or another is just being willfully blind. It's too profitable and skewed in favor of the vendor for software companies not to try (and yes, assets are software).

Xatren posted at 12:00PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239190

Well, for what it's worth, I too believe DAZ will go cloud based for their content, just not with the model everyone seems to be thinking. All software companies are trying since Adobe proved it was viable, and the CG world is at the center of it. My company now pays for Autodesk entertainment creation suite subs and Adobe CC subs for the people that deal with the creative end (yay for me).

I personally think they are planning subscription based content, letting people pay a flat fee per month for X dollars (or ikely, points) worth of downloads, and pay extra for more. Maybe tiered subscriptions, with more points for higher levels of monthly fee, etc. That's just my speculation though.

However, anyone saying the cloud isn't coming in one form or another is just being willfully blind. It's too profitable and skewed in favor of the vendor for software companies not to try (and yes, assets are software).

Lol, I think you're broadly generalising, without enough research to understand what that kind of change would mean to Daz3D and it's customer base. Have you heard of Daz3D Platinum Club+ btw?

Daz Studio 4.9 Big Changes Incoming!!

I think you want this thread for speculation that starts with "I think..." ----->Insert random sky is falling or Evil Daz Empire speculation or what Daz3D are "going to do in the future" with nothing but intuition to guide you, type of statement <-----

Well, I am sorely disappointed in Pauline. I say this as one of the more hopeful, wait-and-see advocates. Most of the figure is passable, but that elbow looks... Any second year university student could have rigged that elbow better.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Now I've got an improved Poser with some nice features, but no figure to use it with. There is nothing left to do on Roxie. Pauline is out of the race, so I think, I won't touch Poser untill ProjectE is out.

Razor42 posted at 7:21PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239197

I think you want this thread for speculation that starts with "I think..." ----->Insert random sky is falling or Evil Daz Empire speculation or what Daz3D are "going to do in the future" with nothing but intuition to guide you, type of statement <-----

And I think you read my post with the tone you wanted it to have to let you be snarky, rather than thinking about what was actually said. For reference: I actually approve of the move (or rather, likely move) to a cloud based business model for DAZ. I know that doesn't fit with the picture of my views that's you're trying to paint there, but it's true. DAZ would only be being smart by looking to the cloud for the future.

Also, when next you choose to chide someone for posting about topics you would like to see exclusively elsewhere, perhaps you should focus on the person bringing the topic into the thread you have deemed it inappropriate for, and not the person simply replying.

But then again, maybe your goal is to seem paternalistic, dismissive, and a bit prone to prejudging others' motives.

Xatren posted at 11:42AM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239190

Well, for what it's worth, I too believe DAZ will go cloud based for their content, just not with the model everyone seems to be thinking. All software companies are trying since Adobe proved it was viable, and the CG world is at the center of it. My company now pays for Autodesk entertainment creation suite subs and Adobe CC subs for the people that deal with the creative end (yay for me).

I personally think they are planning subscription based content, letting people pay a flat fee per month for X dollars (or ikely, points) worth of downloads, and pay extra for more. Maybe tiered subscriptions, with more points for higher levels of monthly fee, etc. That's just my speculation though.

However, anyone saying the cloud isn't coming in one form or another is just being willfully blind. It's too profitable and skewed in favor of the vendor for software companies not to try (and yes, assets are software).

@ Xatren I think everybody expects it to happen and can agree or disagree with the idea. What I observed was people more concerned that their existing content that they paid for being caught up in it, Clearly unless Daz gave everybody a refund for all purchases previous they can't touch the previous content like take it off you and rent it back. The Daz store reads if you own something already now so it is no big issue from Day..... you are on the system you suggest and anything past it is included. Without me getting shot down in flames new users will benefit from a system like that as they don't have a lot of content to begin with. Pricing would be the issue Adobe is 10 bucks a month my worry would be those who chug along on a tightrope and enjoy Daz and when can afford a little buy content so to commit to a monthly plan might not be an option and could affect those in the situation. I can't image the plan be 10 bucks either, Me I already cry when I see my monthly bank statement it never looks like much when you buy this here that there various sites and formats at 2 - 40-50 bucks on average but when the bank kindly put it in one pile each month it is a disgrace. True I can pass some on but buying for the future oh Joe Blogs will like this when chances are it will be a year before it is needed is stupid. If it was reasonable price I could see a benefit to the system after all I can't take it with me when I drop dead. If it ends up a 3 tier system Standard-Pro-Pipeline then that would just be a PITA but I reckon that will be the one.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

Xatren go full passive aggressive on me if you like, honestly I don't mind :)

If you read my statement I was merely suggesting that your comment was rather OT and had been discussed in depth elsewhere. And in turn directing you to that font of er...wisdom. Whether you like cloud or not honestly doesn't really matter to me or change the fact that you're speculating about the future of the company Daz3D in a thread about figure releases, after the initial posters comment had been addressed in this thread and also in depth in the thread I directed you to.

My comments in context, were regarding the thread which is full of the things I described.

Razor42 posted at 8:01PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239209

Xatren go full passive aggressive on me if you like, honestly I don't mind :)

You either don't know what passive aggressive means, or hope that I don't. Either way, my behavior was (perhaps ovely) aggressive, but not in any fashion passive. Passive aggressive behavior is for children and cowards.

If you read my statement I was merely suggesting that your comment was rather OT and had been discussed in depth elsewhere. And in turn directing you to that font of er...wisdom. Whether you like cloud or not honestly doesn't really matter to me or change the fact that you're speculating about the future of the company Daz3D in a thread about figure releases, after the initial posters comment had been addressed in this thread and also in depth in the thread I directed you to.

My comments in context, were regarding the thread which is full of the things I described.

Your comments were clearly meant as I took them, and now you're just trying to say you never meant anything of the sort to avoid confrontation. That is passive aggressive behavior. At least have the courage of your convictions.

Here, take this for future reference.

EDIT: Link added.

_ Xatren I think everybody expects it to happen and can agree or disagree with the idea. _

I don't think "everybody" expects it by any stretch of the imagination. Anyone who really understands how a brokerage in this industry functions and makes money would know it would be a nightmare. Brokerages are nothing like a software company that sells just the software. Adobe and the others can do it because they are selling/renting a very limited volume of software and they own it all. Brokerages on the other hand carry products from hundreds of people and the brokerage itself only owns a fraction of any of those products. As your staff here how complex payouts already are without adding ongoing charges for products that come and go. And while your asking ask them how likely they are going to go to a cloud based system here. All they would need is a coder to create the download system to poser and studio right?

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

Khory_D posted at 9:17PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239220

_ Xatren I think everybody expects it to happen and can agree or disagree with the idea. _

I don't think "everybody" expects it by any stretch of the imagination. Anyone who really understands how a brokerage in this industry functions and makes money would know it would be a nightmare. Brokerages are nothing like a software company that sells just the software. Adobe and the others can do it because they are selling/renting a very limited volume of software and they own it all. Brokerages on the other hand carry products from hundreds of people and the brokerage itself only owns a fraction of any of those products. As your staff here how complex payouts already are without adding ongoing charges for products that come and go. And while your asking ask them how likely they are going to go to a cloud based system here. All they would need is a coder to create the download system to poser and studio right?

I don't think I agree with Xatren about DAZ being likely to go to a cloud based solution, but to play Devil's advocate, he did say people would spend points in his view. That means dollars in become points in buyers' pockets. Points in requires a back-end to send the points to the right merchant, and then the merchant requires a way to cash out on demand. Sounds complex, but Linden Labs already does it with Second Life, and if Linden abs can manage it, a competent company like DAZ definitely can.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Xatren posted at 9:19PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239217

Razor42 posted at 8:01PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239209

Xatren go full passive aggressive on me if you like, honestly I don't mind :)

You either don't know what passive aggressive means, or hope that I don't. Either way, my behavior was (perhaps ovely) aggressive, but not in any fashion passive. Passive aggressive behavior is for children and cowards.

If you read my statement I was merely suggesting that your comment was rather OT and had been discussed in depth elsewhere. And in turn directing you to that font of er...wisdom. Whether you like cloud or not honestly doesn't really matter to me or change the fact that you're speculating about the future of the company Daz3D in a thread about figure releases, after the initial posters comment had been addressed in this thread and also in depth in the thread I directed you to.

My comments in context, were regarding the thread which is full of the things I described.

Your comments were clearly meant as I took them, and now you're just trying to say you never meant anything of the sort to avoid confrontation. That is passive aggressive behavior. At least have the courage of your convictions.

Here, take this for future reference.

EDIT: Link added.

Calm the down, bro. Getting this worked up can't be good for you.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Razor42 posted at 9:22PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239209

Xatren go full passive aggressive on me if you like, honestly I don't mind :)

If you read my statement I was merely suggesting that your comment was rather OT and had been discussed in depth elsewhere. And in turn directing you to that font of er...wisdom. Whether you like cloud or not honestly doesn't really matter to me or change the fact that you're speculating about the future of the company Daz3D in a thread about figure releases, after the initial posters comment had been addressed in this thread and also in depth in the thread I directed you to.

My comments in context, were regarding the thread which is full of the things I described.

So you don't need my advice or whatever, but he's got your number on this one. Just let it go.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

So anyway, back on topic...

Either SM will release a content update soon that fixes the nightmare that is Pauline's elbow, or this presents a great opportunity for a few good character artists to get together and do a really bang-up job on making a new female figure, exclusively for Poser, that uses all the most modern things in Poser 11. If handled well, with lots of early renders and threads on the community sites, the people that made it could really clean up.

Also, what is the deal with not putting Paul in? I mean, I know most people like to render girls (me included), but I really need an acceptable male figure. Even when it was current, M4 had issues.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Paul wasn't ready in time so he will be released later.

My Renderosity Store

Zev0 posted at 10:19PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239240

Paul wasn't ready in time so he will be released later.

I would hate to see the sorry state Paul must have been in if Pauline's elbow was considered ready and he wasn't.

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Time will tell if somebody can salvage these figures and make something usable. But the base in it's current state is pretty dissapointing and has really put off a lot of people.

My Renderosity Store

I still lve you Xatren.

Let me just say this.

If my comment offended you, I sincerely apologise. I should of worded my response more appropriately to avoid misunderstanding or causing offense.

Keep it sweet guys and girls thanks. You have managed to come this far. Black__Days has suggested we get back on topic and I am not sure that is such a good idea either looking at the title of this thread as we will be back to product bashing and fighting in no time. So if it is Daz or Poser character related mesh,vendor,rendering etc it is all fine and a makes for a very interesting topic. Take a leaf out of Khory_D's book picking up on one of my posts and challenged the content of the dribble without the need to attack me personally.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

To go back on topic.

Pauline has launched and she is now, I think everyone can agree, an actual release figure.

Personally I have seen some improvement from the early shots we have seen leaked, mainly with what's possible with morphing Pauline. From facial characteristics to scalability, there does seem to be some real possibilities for the figure in the hands of 3rd party developers.

The negatives are clearly the bending of the figure, it seems she is best posed in the T-pose, anything else tends to look a little awkward to say the least. Again this does seem to be being put out there as something that will be addressed in aftermarket products or left to the er 'Poser?' of Pauline to fix themselves.

The main issue is that Smith Micro, again, seems to be selling a figure based on what a 3rd party will be able to do later with it. Which seems to have a rather high risk factor considering how well this strategy has worked for them in the past.

This really does seem more of an attempt to make a new V4 type figure, rather than an equivalent modern figure such as the figures from Daz, that seem to offer a much more complete package for the end user. I believe this stems from a Poser cultural hang up that believes that most users see themselves as nuts and bolts creative tinkerers, that shun a load and click render scenario. On the other hand Daz3D figures seem to cover the broader market pretty well with diverse price points, If you just want a base to tinker, Genesis 3 figure bases are entirely free with zero investment required. Right through to a Pro version and separate morph packs for those that want a more out of the box solution with shall I say a more complete figure, without facing a learning curve of JCM's, weight mapping issues and crossed fingers waiting for a certain fix. There also is an almost unspoken guarantee from Daz that there figures will receive broad support from a diverse range of developers which is extremely important for buyer security.

So in effect Pauline is, as stated, a merchant resource, that will be dependant on gathering a market share to see any real success as a figure. The danger of this is that buyers may hold off of on any real investment in figure, while waiting to see what the 3rd party developers will bring to the table, and 3rd party developers may lose interest if initial products receive low sales of any initial offerings for Pauline. To be honest while 9 Pauline product offerings seems like a chunk, it really is quite low and I honestly don't expect to see 9 more offered today. And that is what is required to establish the market, follow through. If things go quiet now it could spell real danger for pauline's future. There needs to be a consistent delivery of products to encourage buy in and quell the nerves of customers who worry that Pauline may in fact not receive a full level of product support. Which is entirely to be expected when considering Poser figures history. What is released today may be the first small indicator of Pauline's future.

So in answer to the thread OP is Pauline a V7 killer, definitely not.

But Pauline's future as a potential V4 killer is possible and is in the hands of Poser users and the ability of the required aftermarket developers to fill the holes left by SM. And for that group to create a market segment for Pauline. And only time will decide their success in that.

@Razor42 Okay razor while the upgrade special is going does the new Poser have a load more useful features? I am sure you researched it completely I got absolute nightmare issue here(Not at rendo) so it will be weeks before I can even think about researching it. I use Poser for album covers and always found it does a great job. Nice deep renders I would like to continue doing so running PP2014 now. Not fussed about Pauline looks usable as would never be main anyway and like it has been said it is obvious vendors will turn out something worthwhile.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

Well it depends, I guess, on your current workflows and what version you're upgrading from (I see you mention 2014) and what you would like to see improved from your current version. Think of the issues in your current workflow, do any of the new features move to fix that issue, that justify the price tag for you. Are you interested in an inline PBR renderer?

It kinda goes against my grain to attempt to sell you Poser 11 in the Daz Studio Forums but here goes ;D

Here are some of the main things that are getting Poserphiles excited about Poser 11.

Superfly the much touted PBR Cycles renderer of Blender fame is now in built into Poser. This won't offer much for people who already have a prefered 3rd party renderer such as Reality or Octane but may knock the socks off those Firefly purists out there looking for some increased realism. The integrated Material presets that hold settings for both render engine are a nice touch and keep things clean. To be honest I have been less than impressed with some of the promo material for Superfly, flat jade dragons and fake gold look king tut heads. But it's early days yet and have seen some mind blowing stuff done through Blender in the past. The downside is also if you don't have an Nvidia GPU you may see longer render times.

The OpenGL Realtime toon preview and render with Geometric edge seems to have good possibilities for Toon render fans.

Finally moving the library away from Adobe Flash to what I believe is now Javascript based. The quote was "people in California have moved away from building with Adobe bricks"

Adaptive rigging looks interesting but I haven't seen a convincing use of this either as yet.

HD morphing through the morph brush on SubD figure. Again haven't seen this used. But it sounds good in theory.

All up if you want my actual honest personal opinion, I won't be purchasing it, as I really don't see the value for the price tag anymore in consideration of what the direct competition is offering. Plus Kai Krause was an insane genius with UI design, sometimes I can't decide if the Poser UI is genius or just insane.

Really you need to spend a little time assessing the new features and how they may benefit your own workflow or not. And make a decision based from there. I would tend to hold off for a bit even if you're tempted to give time for any bugs that were rushed out the door to come to light and for people to have time to show what the new features can do also which may sway your final decision. Poser is a tool and it's use is the most important aspect of it's suitability to task. There is no point me recommending you a reflex hammer for demolishing concrete slabs.

Did that sound unbiased enough for you? ;) I hope it may of been of some help, now I need to go take a long scalding shower.

PS: I also hope the Nightmare Issue isn't as serious as it sounds.

Razor42 posted at 6:23PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239279

PS: I also hope the Nightmare Issue isn't as serious as it sounds.

Very serious Razor! Worse than I thought. Studio had break in still waiting for full details but not good at all. I have only been there once in last 3 years but own it and it is usually occupied or eye kept on it. We have one name at least. Looks like a few individuals are going to be sucking custard through a straw for the rest of their natural lives in order to receive their sustenance.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

LPR001 posted at 6:33AM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239293

Studio had break in still waiting for full details but not good at all.

Dude, sorry to hear that. Was the stuff they took insured at least?

Ah man that sucks, hope you get it sorted.

chaecuna posted at 4:41PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239160

RHaseltine posted at 11:40PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239139

chaecuna posted at 3:30PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239123

captive in the cloud

There's no "cloud" in DS.

My DAZ 3D LibrarydatacloudSKUNUMBERruntimetexturesARTISTNAMEPRODUCTNAME notice the "CLOUD" directory name.

Come on, a document tagged "Evil Plans for World Domination" is what I would expect in a "Pinky and the Brain" episode, not in real life; for further info, see "freudian slip". Next time you are looking for a name of a directory that does not give away your plans use a GUID.

The cloud stuff was just marketing - it was also in some of the messages in the first beta, which led to a lot of confusion as people assumed that mean DS was going to require internet access to run, but has now largely been removed (see the change log). DS and the Connect system are going to be even less cloudy than Adobe Creative Cloud, which at least requires occasional online checks for license validity. The folder name isn't a slip revealing any future (or past) plans.

Black__Days posted at 11:18AM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239241

Zev0 posted at 10:19PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239240

Paul wasn't ready in time so he will be released later.

I would hate to see the sorry state Paul must have been in if Pauline's elbow was considered ready and he wasn't.

If I remember the Book of Genesis correctly, Paul was created from one of Pauline's elbows. Or something like that

diogenese19348 posted at 11:41AM Sat, 21 November 2015 - #4239781

Black__Days posted at 11:18AM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239241

Zev0 posted at 10:19PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239240

Paul wasn't ready in time so he will be released later.

I would hate to see the sorry state Paul must have been in if Pauline's elbow was considered ready and he wasn't.

If I remember the Book of Genesis correctly, Paul was created from one of Pauline's elbows. Or something like that

Lol :D

Though I've complained to SM about its figures for years, the figures are not the reason I buy Poser. It's the other things that draw me in, like the ability to create my own dynamic clothing, morph brush, etc. Having said that, I won't be buying Poser this time around - not because of the figures (which are disappointing as far as the bending), but because Daz Studio is becoming my go to program, much as I didn't intend it to. Do I wish I could use my own dynamic clothing in DS? Oh yes I certainly do and I'll keep hoping that someday I can, but my copy of PoserPro 2012 and 14 can still do all that for me. I don't need the new Cycles engine - Iray works great for me and I find the materials very easy to make and manipulate. Even tho I've gotten used to Poser's material room in recent years, I still think it's much more difficult than it has to be and is IMVHO the number one stumbling block to anyone who wants to use Poser to make images. Not everyone needs to use the setup room, the hair room or other functions, but sooner or later one is going to have to use the material room. It's not only hard to use, but there's pretty much zero documentation on how to use it. I was also disappointed that I can't use the last few versions of Daz figures in Poser. I'm not blaming anyone. A business decision is just that and I won't second guess it for either side. I just know it's not supported, so I'll hold onto my money this time around :).

After all that, I still think it serves no purpose to bash the new Poser figures. They are exactly what most of us expected them to be. We should leave it at that. It just breeds more ill will amongst the Daz/Poser feuders (which has gotten really distasteful on both sides).

Laurie

While I like the general shape of Pauline, and the incorporation of some of the new P11 features into her rig, from everything I've read it seems that she wasn't really ready to be released yet. For example, the way the elbows bend really doesn't do the tech of the figure justice, and should have been much better for release. There are several people working on "fixing" her, but IMHO those are things that should be a part of the base figure, to better support the creation of standardized content for her

In general, it really feels to me as if SM pushed this release (both software and Pauline) out the door too soon. I'm also amazed at the lack of many quality renders from Superfly. When DS 4.8 was released, there were a lot of great Iray renders being posted by many different people within a few days (several withing a few hours). The best Superfly renders seem to be coming from less than 10 people. It makes me wonder if it's really that hard to get quality shaders/lighting/renders out of Superfly, or is it just a general lack of any pertinent skills among most Poser users (or is it that the number of people using Poser has dropped significantly).

I spent a lot of time lurking and reading everything in the Poser forums, and finally decided not to upgrade to PP11, for many of the same reasons that LaurieA noted. Of course the lack of Genesis 3 support was a big factor in the final decision, but the general feeling that it wasn't quite ready for release was a big factor as well. I also didn't feel comfortable with the current figures and their general support for them going forward. Pauline is interesting, but will the issues with the base figure make vendor support more difficult? I guess only time will tell.

I wish the best of luck to SM and the early adopters!. Maybe after all the wrinkles get ironed out, I'll decide to upgrade. But for now, DS/Iray, Carrara/Octane, and PP 2014 give me everything I need. I've really enjoyed using DS with Iray, I just wish DS had dynamic hair, dynamic cloth (other then Optitex), something like Posers morph brush, and physics.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

"Not everyone needs to use the setup room, the hair room or other functions, but sooner or later one is going to have to use the material room. It's not only hard to use, but there's pretty much zero documentation on how to use it. was also disappointed that I can't use the last few versions of Daz figures in Poser. I'm not blaming anyone. A business decision is just that and I won't second guess it for either side. I just know it's not supported, so I'll hold onto my money this time around :)."

Well there is a thread in which some properly lit images of figures rendered in the new Cycles based engine are being posted.

But ,as you Might have guessed, it seems that the useful knowledge of how to get decent indoor lighting with the new engine ,resides in the head of Bagginsbill and his few Disciples.

I am sure this will change over time as more users learn the new engine& tutorials are posted online but as of now its like the "good old early days" of firefly, where you have to forget everything you once thought you knew.

My website

YouTube Channel

If DS had a subd import tool or a morph brush or an easier dependency editor, I'd never bo back to Poser again. I don't see any use for Pauline's new figure tools. I haven't seen any convincing Superfly renders yet either. This could be the last Poser I've ever bought.

-Timberwolf- posted at 11:48AM Tue, 08 December 2015 - #4243097

If DS had a subd import tool or a morph brush or an easier dependency editor, I'd never bo back to Poser again. I don't see any use for Pauline's new figure tools. I haven't seen any convincing Superfly renders yet either. This could be the last Poser I've ever bought.

I know what you mean. I'm hoping for dynamic cloth where I can use my own meshes and a morph brush in DS myself ;). Small note to the DS developers...wanna win over Poser people? Give us the stuff Poser people have that DS doesn't. Ya won't convert everybody, but you'll get the lion's share I'm thinkin. LOL

Laurie

LaurieA posted at 7:26PM Tue, 08 December 2015 - #4243174

-Timberwolf- posted at 11:48AM Tue, 08 December 2015 - #4243097

If DS had a subd import tool or a morph brush or an easier dependency editor, I'd never bo back to Poser again. I don't see any use for Pauline's new figure tools. I haven't seen any convincing Superfly renders yet either. This could be the last Poser I've ever bought.

I know what you mean. I'm hoping for dynamic cloth where I can use my own meshes and a morph brush in DS myself ;). Small note to the DS developers...wanna win over Poser people? Give us the stuff Poser people have that DS doesn't. Ya won't convert everybody, but you'll get the lion's share I'm thinkin. LOL

Laurie

Yup, dynamic cloths, how could I forget that. We do need dynamic hair too. Poser's dynamic has an issue with collisions, but is better with animating. Can I have best of both worlds please?

Forum: DAZ|Studio

Subject: New competition figure Sneak previews - SM