Greetings!

I think a lot of people have seen the new Poser girl Pauline by now. But like any new Poser figure she has features that I think not everyone knows about.

So I have decided to make some renders of all the poser girls lined up so you can see them together.

Here we have the first lineup

From Left to Right

Poser 4 nude woman aka Posette, Jessi1, Alyson2, Sydney, Roxie, Pauline and Victoria 4

These are the figures as they load right out of the runtime, IK turned off and poses zeroed before the arms were bent down. As you can see a range of body ratios, polycounts and heights going on here.

Here I have scaled all the figure to about the same height with an allover Body Scale.

First pose test

The all important arms up test. This checks the range of the collar and shoulder rotation. most figures have some sort of hidden correction going on to fix the bends here and you can see why.

The ministry of Silly Walks brings you pose test 2 - 150 degree bend on thigh and 120 degree bend on shin. Arms up and forearms bent to 90 degrees. As you can see these bends cause a lot of problems which some figures solve and some well ... don't.

So how is all this done you ask?

Well there is a lot more going on under the hood then you can first see. First I'll explain some terms for the confused and then I'll go through and mention which figures have what features.

Joint Deformers - Joint deformers are things like magnets that are built into the figure. They are coded to activate when certain bends reach a specific point. These figures have a 'magnetise' pose with them to add the deformers effect to their clothing. This is what causes the v4 breasts to pop out in some poses, and why the magnetise pose fixes it.

Joint Correction Morphs - also known as JCM's are morphs that will fix crumple and other issues when a certain rotation reaches a specified point. Usually the end user needs to do nothing, it just happens magically. Clothing creators though need to make sure they have matching JCM's in their clothing where needed. Pauline has particular hefty thigh fixing JCM's to keep an eye on.

Buttocks Parts - As you can see on Posette the full human range of motion does nasty things to a figure rigged with hip - thigh - shin. For a while people tried a buttocks part as a buffer to help things out, and it does help.

Torso Sections - Humans can have very flexible spines, leading to a range of bending in the torso difficult to emulate. Most figures have three torso sections - hip, abdomen and chest. Some have added a fourth part usually called 'waist'.

Bodyhandles - Bodyhandles are invisible or hidden parts, usually with no geometry, that allow you to adjust parts of a figure without morphs. You see this often on long skirts, but some poser figures have had them here and there. Easy to miss if you are not looking for them.

Pelvis - The pelvis part has no geometry of its own, so it acts kind of like a bodyhandle, but it is in the main hierarchy of the rigging. This acts as a buffer zone for bends like Buttocks did.

Breast Location - People keep changing their minds on this. Should breasts be on the collars left and right, or on the chest.

Weightmaps - Weightmaps are another method of smoothing the bends. Again this is invisible and in the rigging. This technology uses a painted map to tell the program what squishes, what doesnt and how much.

Posette - breasts on chest. 3 part torso. no buttock. No JCMs

jessi 1 - breasts on chest. 3 part torso. no buttock. No JCMs

Alyson - breasts on collar. 4 part torso. no buttock. Joint correction deformers. invisible pelvis part

Sydney g2 - breasts on chest. 4 part torso. buttock part. Joint correction deformers.

Roxie - breasts on collar. 4 part torso. no buttock. invisible pelvis part. Invisible buttock and breast handles. Joint correction deformers.

Pauline - breasts on collar. 4 part torso. no buttock. invisible bodyhandles for breasts, labia, buttocks, and full face rigging. JCMs

Victoria 4 - breasts on chest. 3 part torso. no buttock. Joint correction deformers. JCMs

Pauline has one notable unique characteristic - instead of using morphs for facial expressions she has a full range of handles on her face for a full face rigging. so you can wiggle her ears and scrunch her eyes and all sorts of things just by moving those around.

Okay I think I've blathered on long enough. I hope that answered some questions about the various figures.

About Judy - yes I left her out. She does not currently ship with poser, so I figured people didnt need to know. She falls in the lineup right after posette and before Jessi 1.

Lyrra Madril

"One of these girls is different from the others, one of these girls, do you know which?" But thanks for your summery. :-)

God, talk about the usual suspects. Lol. Go Posette!

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Great post.

And Vicky is such a pinhead.

Looking forward to playing with Pauline's face rigging. (And Paul's too?) That's one thing that still needs improvement, IMO - facial expressions. I really liked Miki 1 for that reason. Her face was so expressive.

Is Pauline weight-mapped?

good info. thanks :)

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Thanks for the comparison. I've recently spent a lot of time rigging original human figures for Poser. I think to the extent that the user wants acuracy in the joints and how they look posed, the use of adjustments to Joint Parameters, weight-painting of the mesh, and using the morph brush - are all solutions to get the correct look, no matter which figure one chooses to use. It is possible with a bit of effort inside Poser; so unless the figure is absolutely horrendously rigged and/or grouped, refinements are always possible. Don't let out-of-the-box limitations define which figure is better for one's own purposes.

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I'm I the only one that gets the felling that Roxie n Pauline was originally Asian and then they made a European from the Asian mesh ?

would explain why Roxie is so short and her eyes.

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You've got some dark shadows that obscure the figures in some areas. The comparison makes Allyson and Roxie look a bit better than expected in certain areas. I see you've also included V4 (non weightmapped?). Here's Dawn.

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Great comparison guys ... let's get Miki and Judy in here.

Boni

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-Timberwolf- posted at 2:02PM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239668

"One of these girls is different from the others, one of these girls, do you know which?" But thanks for your summery. :-)

They're all stock Poser figures except V4. So, right: lets get Judy and Miki1020 in here. Miki1020, not really the best posing, but the best default shape, and as allready mentioned, very good expression morphs.

this was a bit of a rush job so I wasnt worrying about the lights. I did just the smith micro figures, and v4 sicne most people are familiar with her. there are plenty of other female figures

Oh my lineup Posette, Jessi and V4 are NOT weightmapped. All the rest are I believe. I'm not very familiar with sydney

In artistic convention certain ratios of head size to height, arm and leg length have different names. Most of the smith micro figures are 'average', with proportions like a real life person. V4 and Jessi 1 are examples of the 'Heroic' type. They have very long arms and legs and a small head in proportion to their height. This is a bodyshape that artists like drawing. You've seen it around a fair amount, especially in comic books.

Here I have v4, paulie, pauline, v4. The first v4 is default, with feet flat and arms unbent at the lebows. Pauline next to her has been altered to match v4's body propotions. The second Pauline is default, with arms bent down. The last v4 has been altered to match paulines body proportions

I find it interesting to see how altering the proportions can change the look of a figure. No morphs were used here, just scaling on arms, legs, torso and head. It was a little tricky to get the shoulder and neck height right on the scaled pauline as v4 has very squared off shoulders and paulines are rounded.

Lyrra

Dawn compares really well the others. She bends the best, IMO.

I like Pauline's general proportions, but oy, those drinking draw arms.

Interesting. Thanks for the comparisons.

For some reason, in the image of Pauline with her elbow bent, the shoulder looks distorted, when in fact the bend in that pose is nice and smoothe. The shadows must be causing some weird artifacts.

I just wanted to note, however, that when I test figures for poses, I frequently use reference pics of real humans because for my purposes, it gets a bit self-defeating to try to get a figure looking as "realistic" as possible in a pose that no human -- even a contortionist -- would really take. For instance, in the pics with the leg up, every figure has a more or less but clearly prominent bubble-butt, which you don't see in actual women who haven't had cosmetic surgery. But that problem tends to diminish dramatically if you rotate the hip/pelvis forward the way it does when living humans raise their legs. Same thing for the bend-forward, touch your toes pose (which you didn't show). Without a lot of hip rotation, every figure gets a crazy looking bubble-butt, but with a more realistic pose, some look better than others. Also, in any pose with the thigh bent upwards, it looks a lot better with the hips rotated and the torso bent. And the thigh bend does not have to be so extreme. To be sure, there are poses in which the knee will come in contact with the chest. But if you try this yourself, you'll find that you cannot do it unless you rotate your hips forward and bend your torso towards your thighs. Even a real human is going to show distortions -- painful ones at that -- if you try to force the thigh into a bend that it really can't take.

Pauline is far from perfect -- as is the case with every figure, and why every figure needs adjustment morphs for specific poses (like Zev0's bend morphs, etc). But one thing I'm really impressed with is her torso bending. She gets a much more realistic tummy bend than the others.

Edit: By the way, I really like your morph and scaling set for Pauline. I haven't picked it up yet, but it's clearly very much an essential package! Thank you!

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randym77 posted at 9:40AM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239784

Dawn compares really well the others. She bends the best, IMO.

I like Pauline's general proportions, but oy, those drinking draw arms.

Yep. The elbow bend is.... old style. LOL. Fortunately, it's actually quickly fixable with some smoothing swipes with the morph brush.

Had to do this quickly to get in before I couldn't edit this comment any more. Some smoothing, one small delicate "pull", and another couple of smoothing swipes.

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can we have "thank you" buttons in here?

Oh, and I agree. Dawn is definitely worth picking up. Pauline looks like she might have a more easily morphable face. Hard to know until you've really played with them both and given it a try.

Edit: I do note that her default shape is a bit too slender for such a rounded elbow. That would be quite a bit trickier to fix with the morph brush, I think.

I wouldn't buy P11 just for Pauline, though. That's far too much to pay just for a figure.

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Trickier, but doable. Just a quick attempt. Animators would want a JCM.

Pauline morphs very easily, by the way. It's not like I'm any damned good with the morph brush or anything. But that was surprisingly easy to do. Edit: And I think that's where the real strength lies. Not in how well she bends, necessarily. But in just how simple it is to morph her to fit whatever pose or body style you're rendering. That's actually better than relying solely on a pack of fixes -- because they never cover every possible need.

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I know other people are working on HD morphs including elbow fixes. Pauline is a very nice base to work with, and out the box most of her bends are pretty good. She takes scaling and morphs very well. I only had to make a scant handful of fix morphs for when I scaled her down so far the mesh started to buckle. For taking a 5 and a bit tall woman and making her 24 inches tall .. that is not too bad.

One of the things I like the least about the new shapes coming from DAZ recently is how lumpy/detailed they are. This is great for those chasing super realism, but for artists who prefer more stylised looks this is less helpful. I'd rather add the sharp detail where and when I need it.

If I'd known the silly thread would get so much learned commentary I would have done better renders lol

I agree that the SIlly Walk pose I used is unrealistic, since humans don't do that sort of thing naturally. I was mostly showing the results of specific degrees of bend on certain joints. Historically the arms up, elbow bend, leg up and knee bends have had the most issues on 3d figures.

For torso flexibility I tend to think V4 actually is the loser. Its not just having a 3 part torso, its her abdomen/hip bend being so high up. This makes it look like her lower vertebra are fused. I think of the lot Roxie has the best torso bend range. I really dislike bending the hip on a figure because it rotates the entire figure. I understand why, but it generally messes up my entire positioning, which I find less than helpful.

On elbow bends ... the fold depends on how much soft tissue the person has when they bend their arm. A heavier person will get much more elbow fold than a thin person. Unless you make a bazillion conditional JCM's there is not really any way to control how it ends up for every morph. I prefer to leave fixit morphs like that to the end user to apply as needed. I made a free morph set for Jessi and later for Roxie that contain morphs, scaling and joint fixes. Jessi needed a lot of help, Roxie very little. In both I left the fixit morphs under manual control.

The smoothing morph brush is one of my most used tools these days :) oh and you can now mask by both group and material in the morph brush. Made the teeth and fingernail morphs much less of a giant hassle!

Lyrra

Lyrra posted at 12:16PM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239815

I know other people are working on HD morphs including elbow fixes. Pauline is a very nice base to work with, and out the box most of her bends are pretty good. She takes scaling and morphs very well. I only had to make a scant handful of fix morphs for when I scaled her down so far the mesh started to buckle. For taking a 5 and a bit tall woman and making her 24 inches tall .. that is not too bad.

One of the things I like the least about the new shapes coming from DAZ recently is how lumpy/detailed they are. This is great for those chasing super realism, but for artists who prefer more stylised looks this is less helpful. I'd rather add the sharp detail where and when I need it.

If I'd known the silly thread would get so much learned commentary I would have done better renders lol

I agree that the SIlly Walk pose I used is unrealistic, since humans don't do that sort of thing naturally. I was mostly showing the results of specific degrees of bend on certain joints. Historically the arms up, elbow bend, leg up and knee bends have had the most issues on 3d figures.

For torso flexibility I tend to think V4 actually is the loser. Its not just having a 3 part torso, its her abdomen/hip bend being so high up. This makes it look like her lower vertebra are fused. I think of the lot Roxie has the best torso bend range. I really dislike bending the hip on a figure because it rotates the entire figure. I understand why, but it generally messes up my entire positioning, which I find less than helpful.

On elbow bends ... the fold depends on how much soft tissue the person has when they bend their arm. A heavier person will get much more elbow fold than a thin person. Unless you make a bazillion conditional JCM's there is not really any way to control how it ends up for every morph. I prefer to leave fixit morphs like that to the end user to apply as needed. I made a free morph set for Jessi and later for Roxie that contain morphs, scaling and joint fixes. Jessi needed a lot of help, Roxie very little. In both I left the fixit morphs under manual control.

The smoothing morph brush is one of my most used tools these days :) oh and you can now mask by both group and material in the morph brush. Made the teeth and fingernail morphs much less of a giant hassle!

Lyrra

Yes, exactly! (I understand about the Silly Walks -- I should have made that clear. Sorry. I was mainly making the point so that people who get the impression that Pauline can't bend realistically will realize that some adjustments to the pose itself can yield very good results.) You really need fix morphs to suit very specific situations and body types, and as a result, it's really good when the figure is easily morphed by the end user. Pauline seems to be such a figure. As I demonstrated, fixing Pauline's elbow took me less than five minutes, and I'm far from a pro -- which is why in the past I've hesitated to make a tutorial showing how to do that sort of thing. But with Pauline, it's so fast, even I might be able to put out a vid or two. Using the morph brush really ought be something that every Poser user is willing to get comfortable with, I think. It's just too useful to ignore, and it's not a pro-only feature.

However, as you point out, some morphs will need a bit more expertise. And that's why we really appreciate your hard work! :)

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When watching the Poser 11 webinar yesterday Charles used the new measurement tool to put Pauline at 6'3". She made me feel inadequate, lol.

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false1 posted at 12:26PM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239826

When watching the Poser 11 webinar yesterday Charles used the new measurement tool to put Pauline at 6'3". She made me feel inadequate, lol.

Now, now. I remember watching a documentary about "The Seven Foot Club." There was one guy in the UK who was just itching to get into it. He'd measured himself, and he was, indeed, seven foot tall. But when he got an official measurement, he was "only" 6'10". Apparently, he'd spent so much time stooping to avoid hitting his head, that his cervical spine had bent causing him to lose a couple of inches of height. It was heartbreaking. Point being, no matter how tall you are, you can feel inadequate.

There was also a woman from the US who was 6'11". She didn't play basketball, as many would expect, but she was a volleyball player. She wasn't suffering from acromegaly or anything like that. Just extremely tall. But very athletic -- even with her 40 inch waist, she had a flat tummy. She said she tried to date very tall men, but there were so few that she was overlooking other men's better qualities and was dating incompatible tall men just for their height. When she gave that up she was much happier, and she ended up marrying a guy who was something like 5'9".

I'm married to a tall guy, and while he's wonderful, it's not his tallness that does it. Height, much like breast/pec size or waist and hip size, has been way over valued, IMO.

Edit: I know you were making a joke, btw.

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moriador posted at 3:56PM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239831

false1 posted at 12:26PM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239826

When watching the Poser 11 webinar yesterday Charles used the new measurement tool to put Pauline at 6'3". She made me feel inadequate, lol.

Now, now. I remember watching a documentary about "The Seven Foot Club." There was one guy in the UK who was just itching to get into it. He'd measured himself, and he was, indeed, seven foot tall. But when he got an official measurement, he was "only" 6'10". Apparently, he'd spent so much time stooping to avoid hitting his head, that his cervical spine had bent causing him to lose a couple of inches of height. It was heartbreaking. Point being, no matter how tall you are, you can feel inadequate.

There was also a woman from the US who was 6'11". She didn't play basketball, as many would expect, but she was a volleyball player. She wasn't suffering from acromegaly or anything like that. Just extremely tall. But very athletic -- even with her 40 inch waist, she had a flat tummy. She said she tried to date very tall men, but there were so few that she was overlooking other men's better qualities and was dating incompatible tall men just for their height. When she gave that up she was much happier, and she ended up marrying a guy who was something like 5'9".

I'm married to a tall guy, and while he's wonderful, it's not his tallness that does it. Height, much like breast/pec size or waist and hip size, has been way over valued, IMO.

Edit: I know you were making a joke, btw.

The first guy should have seen a chiropracter, might have "straightened" him out.

Any 5'9" guy who could handle a 6'11" woman is a giant among men.

LOL

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LOL. Indeed. I was wrong, though. It turns out the guy she married is 6'2". Still, that's nine inches shorter than her. But even in this case, he's must have succeeded in getting over any fears of inadequacy.

Here she is (Alana Renaud). She looks sweet.:

alanarenaud (1).jpg

Btw: I think tall girls rock. They're not freaks. They're just tall. So I'm totally happy with a 6'3" Pauline. :)! (And as Lyrra showed, she can be scaled.)

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Pauline's geometry looks fine. Her skin map is fine too; her shader, also fine. The only real problem she has is her bends, which leave something to be desired, to put it mildly. More accurately, they are a sin against anyone that has ever smashed their head against the desk in frustration whilst trying to get a rig right. Let's hope she gets some real upgrades when they release Paul, or very shortly thereafter.

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This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

What other problems are there, aside from those elbows?

Subscribing to thread due to much needed information.

Black__Days posted at 8:42PM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239864

Pauline's geometry looks fine. Her skin map is fine too; her shader, also fine. The only real problem she has is her bends, which leave something to be desired, to put it mildly. More accurately, they are a sin against anyone that has ever smashed their head against the desk in frustration whilst trying to get a rig right. Let's hope she gets some real upgrades when they release Paul, or very shortly thereafter.

Her diffuse skin map is very rudimentary. Have a look at it in a graphics editor. For distance renders it's fine. For close-up, you'll want something with a bit more detail. The height maps are nice, though. The shader could be upgraded for Firefly as well -- though it works well enough in Superfly. She's relatively low poly, but morphs easily, so that's a plus. And, yeah, the rigging is not ideal. Fix via morphs or re-rig the trouble spots (elbows, shins, deltoids), I guess. One thing that makes her much better than Roxie, IMO, is that she has much, much better geometry around her eyes. Real upper and lower eyelids. Plus you can move them around with the facial movement controls.

Edit: Since her default map and obj are licensed as merchant resources, anyone who wants to re-rig her and distribute that is welcome to do so without hassle, I'm guessing. :)

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No tea and cookies? Lol. I'm sorry, lol. I couldn't resist.

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moriador posted at 1:51AM Sat, 21 November 2015 - #4239936

Edit: Since her default map and obj are licensed as merchant resources, anyone who wants to re-rig her and distribute that is welcome to do so without hassle, I'm guessing. :)

I wish Blackhearted would give her the Girl Next Door treatment.

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This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Black__Days posted at 7:25AM Sat, 21 November 2015 - #4239864

Pauline's geometry looks fine. Her skin map is fine too; her shader, also fine. The only real problem she has is her bends, which leave something to be desired, to put it mildly. More accurately, they are a sin against anyone that has ever smashed their head against the desk in frustration whilst trying to get a rig right. Let's hope she gets some real upgrades when they release Paul, or very shortly thereafter.

I know some people have requested to see her topology. No one has posted images yet as far as I know. I'd be curious to take a look. Anybody?

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Wireframe shots

These are pretty brutal visually ... the same lineup but in hidden wireframe mode. Front, back and side taken as screencaps. Pauline loads in at subdivision 1 so thats what is shown here.

and head shots in order, left to right

ran out of image space ....

and

At subdivision 1

and pauline's face at subdivision 0

Lyrra

I was playing around with some of these older meshes, and I could not get over how much I like James and Allyson (until you try to lift allyson's arms or pose James in pretty much any way) Aside from that though, the anatomical detail in the mesh is delightful. James with the muscle morph on and Allyson with GND2 on are both beautiful to look at. I spent a few hours playing with James adding weightmaps and was able to get some decent looking movement out of his shoulders. Not really sure how any of this is relevant though.. so shuttin up now lol

Thanks for posting the mesh Lyrra. Interesting to see the progression. Pauline reminds me of V3 I think, with extra detail in the face.

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everyone is worried about the elbow... an elbow is a very straightforward joint to fix with a single JCM... to be honest i'd be more surprised if a figure didn't have #%@$ed elbows and feet.

im more worried about this. not sure i want to deal with fixing stuff like this. does her thigh always bend like this - are you certain this isn't some anomaly due to a twist or morph?

Yes she always bends like that.

I suspect it has something to do with the value op they have on it. Removing the jcm actually makes it look better.

Well that explains why when we asked to see examples of how she bends, nobody wanted to post examples......Oh well.....Hope they fix that problem.

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not the size of the ship, but the motion of the ocean. my first experience with Pauline was a little while ago. when trying to pose one arm, I was recalling Vicky 2. not good

Well she's open source, so anyone can change her rig or her mesh to whatever they want, but as far as market appeal, the way she loads by default is what most people will be basing their support decisions on. At least until someone else gives her a (desperately needed) makeover that is widely adopted.

Well she's open source, so anyone can change her rig or her mesh to whatever they want

Why when it should be done right as a standardized platform out of the box? People changing rigging etc to fix issues is going to cause headaches for content compatibility for those that choose to support her.

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I agree, and that's pretty much what I just said. But that's just how it is. Maybe she'll get lucky and get the blackhearted treatment at some point ;) Fixing her rig isn't that difficult. I've messed around with it a bit myself. Shvrdavid has a nice one he's been working on. Not sure if he's going to release it or not though. We'll just have to wait and see what happens and who does what with her.

******At the other site, I released an improved object file : TaulineB for Pauline, for free for all.

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?102354-GIFT-TaulineB-for-Pauline

And as Shane said, another ambassador is fixing the rig, and if all goes to plan, that will become free stuff too.

For our part? SM can release a dog, and call it a cat.

We will turn it into a cow , (but only on blue mondays)

By midweek it will be a lion, and a tiger, but only when it rains.

With snow, we will turn it into a bear. ( but only on uneven W-End days, and if there was thunder on friday)

As long as they provide the tools, we"ll have lots of fun, and Wings, anim8or, and Blender are free for all.******

So, I edited the above full screen and this site is still messed up beyond repair?

Tja, it was the webmaster that killed this site months ago.

This site is only a shadow of what it was before.

I used to come here for days on end, used to add all my free-stuff here, now I barely come any more, and each time, "the next" thing is broken. Sorry Renderosity, rest in piece.

Vilters? Does your TaulineB bend any better? No, because it is a FBM for a broken base. You guys really failed as testers not picking up these obvious rigging and bend issues but released it anyway. Whatever state the base is in, will filter down to all content based on it, unless somebody specifically releases a fix for it. In my opinion this should be an official fix to ensure standardization. Doing so after a public release is risky, as it could break existing content support if not implemented properly, and that, is the quickest way to end support.

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thanks tony vilters. I will install and give a whirl. right now, I am unable to render SSS mats with poser pro 11. I figure it is in the default settings , so I will keep playing. V4 comes out black. got any suggestions? thanks

@ Zev0 You know there are things we can not talk about, so I will not.

@ richardphotos Thanks for the compliment. At RDNA there are special treads including answers by SM about black renders. (or true white renders) Most older material room setups will render fine in FireFly as before. But if you want to render in SuperfFly, you will have to adapt older material room setups to the new render engine.

BLACK usually means you are running into the limitations of your GPU. A first work around ; try reducing bucket size. => if that does not help reduce the number and or sizes of the textures used. Mostly you will have to adapt the material room setup to optimise for SuperFly But ; SuperFly can be set up using VERY little nodes.

I do not think it is a GPU problem , as the render at 2800 only took maybe 2 minutes with V4 by herself and the indirect function at about 50%.

thanks for your speedy reply. I will seek out those threads and see if an old man can grasp the situation. I have been using poser since poser 4 pro and never had to adapt like I am with poser pro 11

Zev0 posted at 7:54PM Wed, 25 November 2015 - #4240968

You guys really failed as testers not picking up these obvious rigging and bend issues but released it anyway.

Testers can only point out all the issues they find - and trust me, they did. They have no control over whether or not those issues get fixed.

So then it's the Poser teams fault? Anyways it doesn't matter now. She was released the way she is. It's a real pity because it could have been handled differently. Anyways I just expected more of an effort this time around. There was a lot riding on these new figures.

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While I agree that her bends aren't as good as I had wanted... this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.. I think there should be some sort of requirement for people to post pictures of themselves assuming a pose before they hack down a rig for not being able to.
Not trying to be a bitch guys.. but nobody bends this way.. not in the thigh and not in the shin. And not a single one of you guys taking shots here doesn't know it full well, bad form guys. The figure has enough well deserved shots against it that you don't need to fabricate or exaggerate issues to tear it down.

Edit: OK with effort I can get my shin to bend that far.. sort of.. her proportions seem off, i feel like the heel should land towards the base of the buttocks, but hers is way up near the top of the buttock. still the thigh bend is completely unfair

i was planning on giving her the GND treatment but i'll wait until all the issues with the base rig are fixed.

it needs to 'work' out of the box. while its nice that shes open source and people are creating improvements, its guaranteed product death to require multiple prerequisite packages/fixes before someone can use your product.

for example: own Poser 11 with service release 1, then download Bob's weight map fix 1.3 from xx website, then download Bill's UV fix from yy website: only then can you use my product. this type of thing doesnt work. if anyones been around here long enough to remember Jim Burton's excellent work with Vicky 1, even one simple step like PCF encoding cripples the release of a product and creates a product support nightmare for the vendor. there has to be some system for quality improvements to be standardized and rolled into the base figure and distributed by SM (preferably in poser). perhaps they can think of some incentive to get people to do so, like vouchers to be used on Poser, an upgrade to Poser Pro, whatever.

id do some free tweaks (i may still down the road once things stabilize), but i already spend about 60% of my time doing volunteer work - i need to earn a living too.

It needs to 'work' out of the box. while its nice that shes open source and people are creating improvements, its guaranteed product death to require multiple prerequisite packages/fixes before someone can use your product.

Yep.....

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AmbientShade posted at 3:41AM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4240914

Yes she always bends like that.

I suspect it has something to do with the value op they have on it. Removing the jcm actually makes it look better.

jesus , how did that make it out the door !

She's a merchant resource, which means that whatever you do with her doesn't have to depend on her official rig or anyone else's modifications. I guess it's best to wait until we see that put in writing officially of course.

being able to distribute the modified mesh/rig does change things..

in that case it might not be a bad idea for Rendo to create a forum/subforum for her where users could submit bugs, contributors could collaborate and people could keep track of its development. will be interesting to see how it works out considering the way 3D content works... change a single vertice or the UVs and you nuke everyone elses work up to that point.

btw what is up with the forum lumping all of my paragraphs together?

She's a merchant resource, which means that whatever you do with her doesn't have to depend on her official rig or anyone else's modifications.

Yes great for the tinkerer who wants to do all those things. What about the user who wants commercial support, who doesn't want to rig and modify things themselves? They are the majority of this market, and they are getting the short end of the stick here. User gets Poser11, looks for commercial content support for these figures, there isn't because the figure is an MR and if you want something you need to do it yourself. In what world has that idea ever worked in this market and made a figure catch on commercially?

Majority of vendors will gladly say good luck and support something else. And judging by the amount of support I am seeing in the stores, it looks like that motion has already been set. Content is king? Looks like it but only if you do it. Very big mistake to make, and soon you will see why. Even Dawn had more support out of the gate and look what happened to her commercial appeal. It is going to be hard for Pauline to do any better, and certainly not in the condition she was released in. Just being realistic here.

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Blackhearted posted at 1:29PM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241039

btw what is up with the forum lumping all of my paragraphs together?

Don't ask......This forum is broken in so many ways.

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Look at the posing fiigure at Ali's front page. This is how a stock Poser figure should look like. I have no idea, what figure this is. Maybe it is in development. There's no information released. http://www.mankahoo.com Oh yeah, nudity -sorry

? All I see is hair sets:)

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Zev0 posted at 1:59PM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241045

? All I see is hair sets:)

not the hair ;)

Ah. Well my firefox refuses to display that image lol.

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What I miss on Pauline's mesh are some edge loops to define some muscle structures on her front thighs. Backside of her thighs look good to me, same with calfs and knees, but her thighs front look like some spandex pants.

Zev0 posted at 8:00AM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241041

User gets Poser11, looks for commercial content support for these figures, there isn't because the figure is an MR and if you want something you need to do it yourself.

That's the fault of the vendors. The MR is specifically for vendors to take advantage of. If they choose not to it's no one's fault but their own. I fail to see the logic in that statement.

There are other people working on figures. It doesn't have to come from SM. There are a number of artists around here who could build a good commercial support network for whatever they might produce just based on the success of their previous work. SM provided Pauline and soon to be Paul - as an attempt to give content artists a blank canvas to build whatever figure they want to build without having to start from absolute scratch or worry about licensing restrictions and copyrights, etc. It's not possible to meet everyone's expectations in what makes the perfect figure. That's where a true content artist gets to step in and build whatever they want from that base starting point and grow a following around their work. I agree she could be better, and a lot of testers tried to get her to a better state but deadlines are deadlines. There are a number of people who seem to like Pauline more than previous SM figures. And they've taken several steps with P11 to make content creation easier, which could just as easily have been what was meant by the 'content is king' phrase. Since it was never actually elaborated on it's anyone's guess what was really intended by it.

One part of the disapointment is, that there was Roxie before. Not that beauty out of the box with some flaws too, but bending and appeal has been "within acceptable parameters". Now here Pauline looks like a big step back. ...........................Quote:"There are a number of people who seem to like Pauline more than previous SM figures.".................................................Pauline's beautyness or not beautyness is in the eye of the beholder, her bad rigging is not.

How does this "Merchant Resource" idea work? If someone mod's the figure and puts it for sale in the marketplace here or wherever, then wouldnt people essentially be able to buy the figure without buying poser? I thought one of the perks of buying the new poser version was to get the new figure.

nothing wrong with the blank canvas idea -- its the concept ive been heavily pushing for years.

people will take a blank canvas and run with it as long as its a high quality blank canvas. word for word what ive told people at the helm of Poser for years is that all a base figure needs is a high quality platform: impeccable quality UVs, base mesh, and a good working base rig. these are things that either cant be changed or the typical vendor doesnt want to get involved with. ive said it so many times i feel like a #%@$ing broken record. you dont need to include a ton of morphs and 'features'. vendors and freestuff creators will make all that stuff.

but in order to get people to work on that 'blank canvas' -- to embrace it as a universal platform instead of just the latest in a long line of new figures that fall by the wayside -- that canvas needs to be pretty clean to begin with.

So. Watching the thread a lot of the usual stuff happening, fairly predictable actually. :) However, for the record, I love Pauline. I plan on using her rather extensively after I get through my holiday rush of comic production. I find she bends very well despite some claiming otherwise. I find her a suitable replacement for V4 in my runtimes thus far especially with the addition of Morphs and a conversion kit for clothing. I would like to see more skins and content but tis early in the process. I don't see any of the issues in rigging that folks speak of either but hey I'm new to it.

The thing I tell myself when a new figure comes out and I've tried about all of them as they came out cause I'm avid in trying new things and seeing what they can do. So I've tried everything from V4, Genesis, Gen2, Gen3, Dawn, Scarlett, the default Poser figures like Alysoun, Roxie, Miki, and beyond. One unalienable fact remains, each figure had issues when it came out. I find that Pauline had fewer issues IMHO.

So I'm willing to support the figure and see how she develops out, I am not willing to judge a figure because of who produced it, what program it works in, or a lot of other religious fervor that overcomes folks :) Why? Cause we are a community of 3d artists that use a lot of different programs to create art and content. Should it matter really in the end? No. Divergent opinions and views are great for learning , for seeing other sides of things, for opening our eyes to new possiblities, to dare to explore, ... tis what we humans are good at. However, we are also good with destructive behaviours of tearing things down just cause they don't match our worldview... I find I reject this model. I prefer to be constructive in my criticisms I prefer to see the good, the bad, the ugly, the not so ugly... and I prefer to adapt and share in the spirit of a sharing, can do, exploration, and enjoying the company of great folk that just want to create art without tearing down other folks in the process. :)

Anyways, enough said, carry on, I need to go and do paying work, and go and play with Pauline (hrm that didn't come off right does it) ;)

I'd like to remind you all to keep on topic. For those who came in late this threads topic: comparing the smith micro figures, positives and negatives of each.

If someone wants to start a thread discussing how to fix any specific figures problems you can link it back here.

BH - Nice to see you man! been a while. If you do a shape for Pauline let me know so I can add the morph to my Pauline bodysuit :)

Lyrra

AmbientShade posted at 8:31AM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241051

Zev0 posted at 8:00AM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241041

User gets Poser11, looks for commercial content support for these figures, there isn't because the figure is an MR and if you want something you need to do it yourself.

That's the fault of the vendors. The MR is specifically for vendors to take advantage of. If they choose not to it's no one's fault but their own. I fail to see the logic in that statement.

There are other people working on figures. It doesn't have to come from SM. There are a number of artists around here who could build a good commercial support network for whatever they might produce just based on the success of their previous work. SM provided Pauline and soon to be Paul - as an attempt to give content artists a blank canvas to build whatever figure they want to build without having to start from absolute scratch or worry about licensing restrictions and copyrights, etc. It's not possible to meet everyone's expectations in what makes the perfect figure. That's where a true content artist gets to step in and build whatever they want from that base starting point and grow a following around their work. I agree she could be better, and a lot of testers tried to get her to a better state but deadlines are deadlines. There are a number of people who seem to like Pauline more than previous SM figures. And they've taken several steps with P11 to make content creation easier, which could just as easily have been what was meant by the 'content is king' phrase. Since it was never actually elaborated on it's anyone's guess what was really intended by it.

So a person could take Pauline's .obj and start over completely if they wanted to, like she's just a base mesh? They could use the topology that's already present, since it's actually pretty good, and sculpt her in zbrush or whatever, and turn her into a totally new figure that they then UV if they like and rig to their satisfaction, and then sell her as their own creation, that doesn't even require Pauline or Poser 11?

That doesn't seem like that a bad a deal at all, if that's the case.

EDIT: Hold up. If she is actually open source, why hasn't anyone started just disseminating her so all poser users and content creators can get started with her?

Pauline uses specialized poser 11 prop handles for face and some body rigging. I'm not certain how this would translate to earlier versions of poser.

Someone should try that and see what happens.

LM

Lyrra posted at 8:55AM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241065

Pauline uses specialized poser 11 prop handles for face and some body rigging. I'm not certain how this would translate to earlier versions of poser.

Someone should try that and see what happens.

LM

Even still, having her .obj to get to work on would be sweet.

I'll pencil a Pauline downgrade version in for after I finish the Paul Morphs plus. Unless someone beats me to it. In theory one should be able to convert the bodyhandles to regular rigged handles and make her compatible back to mmm poser 7? where they added WM.

I dont think she's open source, she was stated as being a merchant resource. I'll ask Nerd for clarification.

LM

__So a person could take Pauline's .obj and start over completely if they wanted to, like she's just a base mesh? They could use the topology that's already present, since it's actually pretty good, and sculpt her in zbrush or whatever, and turn her into a totally new figure that they then UV if they like and rig to their satisfaction, and then sell her as their own creation, that doesn't even require Pauline or Poser 11?

That doesn't seem like that a bad a deal at all, if that's the case.__

It's a terrible idea from a vendors perspective. So tell me, why should vendors support your Pauline over the SM version or somebody elses? Do you see the problem here? There are going to be so many once off versions that will never gain traction or support. You are seriously going to fragment the userbase. What good is 100 versions of Pauline if none of them are compatible with each other? I do not see the benefit of this at all. Please for the love of God, stay away from this idea. It is going to cause mass confusion.

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Zev0 posted at 10:26AM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241073

_So a person could take Pauline's .obj and start over completely if they wanted to, like she's just a base mesh? They could use the topology that's already present, since it's actually pretty good, and sculpt her in zbrush or whatever, and turn her into a totally new figure that they then UV if they like and rig to their satisfaction, and then sell her as their own creation, that doesn't even require Pauline or Poser 11?

That doesn't seem like that a bad a deal at all, if that's the case._

It's a terrible idea from a vendors perspective. So tell me, why should vendors support your Pauline over the SM version or somebody elses? Do you see the problem here? There are going to be so many once off versions that will never gain traction or support. You are seriously going to fragment the userbase. What good is 100 versions of Pauline if none of them are compatible with each other? I do not see the benefit of this at all. Please for the love of God, stay away from this idea. It is going to cause mass confusion.

because that one could be bought without having to buy poser11...will have a bigger market

Bigger market maybe...But again, who is going to support that version if it is not official? What if another Pauline shows up that can work in DOS? It is going to be a circus.

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Zev0 posted at 11:30AM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241076

Bigger market maybe...But again, who is going to support that version if it is not official? What if another Pauline shows up that can work in DOS? It is going to be a circus.

You're operating under the assumption that the new figure would be marketed as a Pauline at all. There's your mistake. The key is whether or not the existing Pauline figure is truly open source. If it actually is, you can do whatever you like with it.

If a person makes a figure from an existing open source figure, using only its geometry and adding their own original rigging, then it is not the figure from which the base mesh was taken in any meaningful sense. It would just happen to have compatible UVs, if the person making the new figure left the original UVs intact. Therefore, there could be many new figures, each with their own names (none of them being called Pauline), all sharing UVs. Those people that makes skins would be able to sell to owners of any figure based on Pauline's geometry. Whether you prefer Pauline from Smith Micro or Paige from vendor X wouldn't matter at all.

Whether you prefer Pauline from Smith Micro or Paige from vendor X wouldn't matter at all.

Really? What if I created outfit is designed for Pauline's rigging and doesn't work on Paige because she has different rigging and breaks the outfit? Are you going to bother to update it for Paige? Oh crap, somebody just released Mariah that has a different rig. Are you going to update your product to support that version as well? What about morph packs? Gonna do it for all or just support the official version? All I am saying, is give vendors a set base to support, a set standard, one that works out of the box, or most will not bother with your platform. Simple as that.

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Zev0 posted at 12:49PM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241088

Whether you prefer Pauline from Smith Micro or Paige from vendor X wouldn't matter at all.

Really? What if I created outfit is designed for Pauline's rigging and doesn't work on Paige because she has different rigging and breaks the outfit? Are you going to bother to update it for Paige? Oh crap, somebody just released Mariah that has a different rig. Are you going to update your product to support that version as well? What about morph packs? Gonna do it for all or just support the official version? All I am saying, is give vendors a set base to support, a set standard, one that works out of the box, or most will not bother with your platform. Simple as that.

Well, why would you be trying to use an outfit for Paige on Pauline? Would you try to have your Jessi clothing work on Victoria 7? The point is,Pauline, Paige and Mariah wouldn't be different versions of the same figure. They would be completely different figures. You do understand that, right? Taking a base mesh and making different things out of it is pretty standard for the CG industry as a whole.

And that is the PROBLEM. Compatibility! Why would people invest in Paige if there is no morph packs or one outfit if that creator fails to provide continued support or get vendors onboard for that figure? Look at Genesis. All shapes, morphs, characters and skins built for it can work with each other. WHY? Because the base and rigging is standardized. What point would it be if all of those were standalone figures with no compatibility with each others content and vendors will have to do individual support for all instead of just once off? How hard is this to understand? Seriously.......

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There's a joke about 'invasion of the body snatchers' or Doctor Who's Cybermen in here somewhere.

---

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Zev0 posted at 1:52PM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241093

And that is the PROBLEM. Compatibility! Why would people invest in Paige if there is no morph packs or one outfit if that creator fails to provide continued support or get vendors onboard for that figure? Look at Genesis. All shapes, morphs, characters and skins built for it can work with each other. WHY? Because the base and rigging is standardized. What point would it be if all of those were standalone figures with no compatibility with each others content and vendors will have to do individual support for all instead of just once off? How hard is this to understand? Seriously.......

The only thing that's hard to understand is why you are still whining about other people possibly putting their efforts where they wish instead of just doing the same thing yourself. You do sell a few items, but really, do we have to have the sermonizing to go with them? You've made it clear that you aren't interested personally, and won't support anyone that is, so it's really none of your business.

EDIT: Why do different figures have to be compatible with one another anyway? I don't often find myself wanting to put Freak 3 clothes on Skyler.

TonyVilters bet your going to have a lot of fun playing with a open source mesh :)

I have Pro 14 but I can't tell if I got tonyvilters TaulineB to load in Poser .I went to Content install and done all that. but it's not in DownLoads no matter how many times I refresh.HELP

I did load the .obj in C4D.the character seems like she has good ratios . TaulineB genitalia is flush so can't tell about that but it seems not to be in the right place.Roxies genitalia was to far forward.

I think before you start worrying about uvmaps,riggs etc etc ya need to make sure every thing is in the right place to start with.

============================================================ 

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Just so everyone here knows, the re rig of Pauline that I am working on uses the exact same joint centers as the default Pauline does. It is done that way so it is compatible with content, not to start another version completely. It wont require scripts, or a Masters Degree in Poser to use. You can simply copy the rigging to the cloth for many things. Here is the progress, there are no jcms in it at all.

I have considered doing a radical departure rigging wise, but it isn't like anyone here wants a figure that actually bends like a real person does..

---

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Looking back a little bit in the thread in response to Lyrra's comment about a backward compatible Pauline... Lyrra, if you're serious about creating such a blank rig that'll work going back to Poser 5; dump the body handles completely (delete the bones and dependencies or whatever), get rid of the weight maps and have just legacy spherical fall offs. WMing came in at Poser 9, capsule fall offs (Miki 3, Creech and a few others are the only figures I've seen with this) Poser 8. A truly open, flexible blank .cr2 wouldn't have extraneous bells and whistles nor version specific features, it would be a canvas that any Poser artist regardless of version could work on.

---

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shvrdavid posted at 8:09PM Thu, 26 November 2015 - #4241131

Just so everyone here knows, the re rig of Pauline that I am working on uses the exact same joint centers as the default Pauline does. It is done that way so it is compatible with content, not to start another version completely. It wont require scripts, or a Masters Degree in Poser to use. You can simply copy the rigging to the cloth for many things. Here is the progress, there are no jcms in it at all.

I have considered doing a radical departure rigging wise, but it isn't like anyone here wants a figure that actually bends like a real person does..

It's looking very good so far. I look forward to using it when it is done.

Have to agree... ShvrDavid's modifications look alot better than the default bends.

---

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My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

shvrdavid Impressive rig !!!

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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EldritchCellar posted at 2:29AM Fri, 27 November 2015 - #4241133

Looking back a little bit in the thread in response to Lyrra's comment about a backward compatible Pauline... Lyrra, if you're serious about creating such a blank rig that'll work going back to Poser 5; dump the body handles completely (delete the bones and dependencies or whatever), get rid of the weight maps and have just legacy spherical fall offs. WMing came in at Poser 9, capsule fall offs (Miki 3, Creech and a few others are the only figures I've seen with this) Poser 8. A truly open, flexible blank .cr2 wouldn't have extraneous bells and whistles nor version specific features, it would be a canvas that any Poser artist regardless of version could work on.

Poser 5 is ancient. At this point IMO theres no reason to go further than 3 versions back to support the handful of people using 13 year old software. There are plenty of figures that are compatible with Poser 4-8. The main weakness of Poser is realistic figure bending and weight mapping is a huge improvement in that area.

That said, I would dump anything that is Poser 10-11 exclusive and make it available to anyone with Poser 9+.

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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Poser 10+ is actually more practical, unless you intend on not taking full advantage of the features that have been introduced in 10 and 11, or intend on trying to support two versions of the same figure which can be a confusing nightmare for potential users. Poser 9 can't read subD surfaces for example, and the unimesh system is pretty rudimentary. Facial rigging is possible in 9 and 10 but only 11 will give you the ability to create control handles for the rig or an additional pallet for its dials. Control handles could be built by hand of course if you want to go that route. and then there is HD morphing which only 11 will read. There are other issues too but I'd have to go back and remember all of them. Of course if it's just the weightmapping you're interested in, V4 has already been weightmapped a few times.

IMO, any new figure that someone were to create at this point should do its best to encourage users to upgrade to the latest version of Poser, while giving consideration to those who haven't upgraded yet. Poser 10 can be found pretty cheap after all, and the longer 11 is out the cheaper 10 will get.

I am no longer following this thread

Thank you all for reminding me why I avoid the forums

Lyrra

shvrdavid posted at 5:31AM Fri, 27 November 2015 - #4241131

Just so everyone here knows, the re rig of Pauline that I am working on uses the exact same joint centers as the default Pauline does. It is done that way so it is compatible with content, not to start another version completely. It wont require scripts, or a Masters Degree in Poser to use. You can simply copy the rigging to the cloth for many things. Here is the progress, there are no jcms in it at all.

I have considered doing a radical departure rigging wise, but it isn't like anyone here wants a figure that actually bends like a real person does..

Hey, I've wanted to play with some of your rigs for some time.... ;)

Lyrra posted at 7:08AM Fri, 27 November 2015 - #4241170

I am no longer following this thread

Thank you all for reminding me why I avoid the forums

Lyrra

Sorry Lyrra. I thought the intention of this thread was to discuss Pauline's construction and possibilities. At least that seems to be the natural procession of where the topic would go.

nope. this thread is about comparing the figures. you want to rebuild Pauline, go make a new thread "How to Improve Pauline' and dont cross topics. That way people looking to rebuild Pauline can find you.

I however have much too much work to get on with to keep an eye on forum postings. I'm pretty certain people would much rather I spent my time making things than explaining over and over how to stay on one bloody topic.

You want to compare say miki4 or Posette-Nea to any of these figures this is your thread. for anything else .. start a new one., Its not like they charge.

Lyrra

Hello Lyrra, I feel you are upset. ** If you want to compare figures, please study some anatomy first.**

We all want to make all Poser figures better, and we spend weeks, if not months, on a single FBM. Or like Scott, who works weeks on end to improve the rigging and who is doing a very fine Job at that. => **We go for quality, not for quantity. **

---

With each release SM is limited to their time table. We are not limited in time and continue to fine tune the object file and the rigging.

The first priority was to get a repaired object file out to the general public.

Next will be rigging and textures, and we use the new Poser tools as they are supposed to be used.

And "YES", everything we make will initially be "FREE for all".

And we certainly do not go "for the quick buck" as some try to do. => That always backfires. Certainly with Wings, anim8or, and Blender being free apps for everybody, and more and more end users are building their own morphs and support items.

Lyrra posted at 7:32AM Fri, 27 November 2015 - #4241176

nope. this thread is about comparing the figures. you want to rebuild Pauline, go make a new thread "How to Improve Pauline' and dont cross topics. That way people looking to rebuild Pauline can find you.

I however have much too much work to get on with to keep an eye on forum postings. I'm pretty certain people would much rather I spent my time making things than explaining over and over how to stay on one bloody topic.

You want to compare say miki4 or Posette-Nea to any of these figures this is your thread. for anything else .. start a new one., Its not like they charge.

Lyrra

So what your basically saying is that only comparisons that you approve of can be discussed? I saw multiple mentions of my re rig, and posted pictures as examples. You know, as a comparison just like the title of the dam thread is named. After all, it is a Poser figure. And apparently more than a few people thought that's what we were going to discuss. Maybe they thought that, because of what you named the thread... Go figure.....

I have just about every character in Poser re rigged where you can tie them into a knot, with the acceptation of Pauline and Paul, which are not finished yet.

If you started this thread simply to point out issues with figures, whatever. There are tons of those here and maybe you could have just bumped one of those. And if we are not allowed to post things into your threads that are directly related to what you named the topic, by all means start your dam own forum............. You even posted modifications on the first page, glad to know no one else is allowed too..................

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Interesting news about Pauline in this thread. ty all for the infos.
(even its a bit offtopic)
As my poser experience (since Poser5) tells me, Poser11 will be stable after SR3, hopefully for the ppl using Poser11. Personally i will pause again for 1 to 2 Releases, like i did before, got  PPro2010 then PPro2014.
Maybe SM should take more time too and produce more quality content and less initial bugs.
Releasing a figure like Pauline with such flaws is not understandable / acceptable. 

So now back to the topic of this thread, lets have a look at SM's Alyson and Ryan.

(comparing the smith micro figures, positives and negatives of each.)

Well so i start with very annoing negative one and hope this does not count as offtopic.

My first issue with this figures was the ONE folder they are installed to. 

Lets say you have installed the distributed figures packages of PPro2014 and take
a first look inside your content (runtime\libraries\People\Ryan or \Alyson).
Wow, you see all mixed up together, very confusing without any structure. 

Its possible to clearly structure folders under runtime\libraries since Poser5 !
(provided that you don't have references inside)
But SM the Poser devlopers take you that freedom, by packing all different Ryan
Versions including corresponding .obj's and .pmds in ONE directory.
(Rember .obj and .pmd are references and should reside under runtime\geometries)
And Alyson, absolute the same. (Each directory has more than 600 MB together 1.2GB)

So tell me if you dont know these figures very well, where to start to check them out ?

Besides that, .pmd Tech should help to not copy morphs over and over again.
But what does SM here ?, they create absolute indentical copies of .pmds
with different names.

So before i was content to continue with Ryan and Alyson i had to clear out
that crap to an easy to use folder structure. Costed me about 2 hours, but now
i have the folder structure like it should came from SM. References  on its place
and saved a lot of space, getting rid of this useless copies of .pmd files.
And also a clear division between Rayn and Ryan2, Alyson and Alyson2  and all of his/her different versions.

shvrdavid posted at 5:45PM Wed, 27 January 2016 - #4241131

I have considered doing a radical departure rigging wise, but it isn't like anyone here wants a figure that actually bends like a real person does..

:(

JohnDoe641 posted at 11:07AM Thu, 28 January 2016 - #4251587

shvrdavid posted at 5:45PM Wed, 27 January 2016 - #4241131

I have considered doing a radical departure rigging wise, but it isn't like anyone here wants a figure that actually bends like a real person does..

:(

Ok I know this thread is about comparing, but I wish to answer shvrdavid, I'm interested, most figures bend ok, but none are good, I like using V4, I now she bends like crap but I have more content for her and I'm not wasting money on another bending nightmare, shame V4 cannot be fixed,lol.

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

shedofjoy posted at 9:07AM Thu, 28 January 2016 - #4251711

Ok I know this thread is about comparing, but I wish to answer shvrdavid, I'm interested, most figures bend ok, but none are good, I like using V4, I now she bends like crap but I have more content for her and I'm not wasting money on another bending nightmare, shame V4 cannot be fixed,lol.

There are at least three free weightmapped V4's available, which can use her content (sometimes with a bit of work)...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
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I have seen the weightmapped v4 but I'm not impressed,I know some are happy with it,but isn't it about time that poser etc ,and figures had skin that reacts like skin? Weightmapping seams more like a bandaid to the problem rather than dumping the old ways and starting over with something more advanced.

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

You never hear the War Lords cry I want.kill the kings ,rage war ,it's yours for the taking.

Hail To The King

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

shedofjoy posted at 10:42AM Sat, 30 January 2016 - #4251874

I have seen the weightmapped v4 but I'm not impressed,I know some are happy with it,but isn't it about time that poser etc ,and figures had skin that reacts like skin? Weightmapping seams more like a bandaid to the problem rather than dumping the old ways and starting over with something more advanced.

Ahh, but you commented how much V4 content you had; you can't have it both ways... Weightmapping is used by most 3d software these days, and will work well with a good mesh; V4's is decent. If you want something better on the cheap, one can grab Tony's improved Pauline if you have Poser 11, or convert Genesis 2 to a Poser figure pretty easily in Poser 9 and up.

There are programs with more advanced rigging, but they come with a highly advanced price compared to Poser...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

WandW posted at 6:02PM Sun, 31 January 2016 - #4252152

There are programs with more advanced rigging, but they come with a highly advanced price compared to Poser...

Blender ,Houdini ,Lightwave are affordable. The funny part is most high-end app's use mocaps so they don't need all the rigging tools. But since Poser can use mocaps high end app's don't really have any thing on Poser.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

lyrra you missed V2, V3, Judy, Miki, TY....all popular figures....in their time and now.

"Blender ,Houdini ,Lightwave are affordable."

So is Daz studio... but there are some that would rather struggle with a horribly crippled G3 Female with no face movement and can only wear her basic sports bra& panties....after being forced into poser..

Rather than venture outside the familiar 1990's Kia krause interface of poser

"The funny part is most high-end app's use mocap so they don't need all the rigging tools"

Mocap is merely animation data captured from a live human actors using the various optical systems on the market you still need good rigging tools that can retarget that mocap data to your native application rigs.

** " But since Poser can use mocaps high end app's don't really have anything on Poser"**

Posers IK system is rubbish,

its camera & Graph editor, animation system is a vestigial 1990's relic . "high end "apps have much better Character motion editing systems than poser

My website

YouTube Channel

Shhhh ,don't tell the children there's no santa claus ;) I finally got how to make AO maps in SL ,it xmas to me :)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Most apps you can just bake to render via uvs for AO maps. Or that's how you do it in modo...

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

EldritchCellar posted at 6:34PM Thu, 18 February 2016 - #4255906

Most apps you can just bake to render via uvs for AO maps. Or that's how you do it in modo...

I was having difficulties burning AO maps from Normal maps in Substance Painter. problems solved now :)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Nifty. That should come in handy to grunge up mechanical stuff. Baking is really cool with procedurals. Still need a good uv though. Sorry for the OT Lyrra.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

Oh ,We got grunge ,We got nothing but grunge. I'm in dire need of masking skills. ;)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Not familiar with masking in SL. I assume it's a typical gray scale/bw alpha though. SL uses layers looks like for materials. Probably just export out a uv template, import in to an image editor, and create your masks. How those masks might be applied in SL is your call. Creating the masks themselves shouldn't be too difficult, maybe you could invert the AO map and do a bit of erasing/fading and apply that as your mask? Just conjecture for conversations sake of course. Maybe an in app procedural inversion of your effects with some kind of strength falloffs is possible as a mask? Seems like something that would be accounted for pretty up front with a tool like SL.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

EldritchCellar posted at 1:12AM Sat, 20 February 2016 - #4256042

Not familiar with masking in SL. I assume it's a typical gray scale/bw alpha though. SL uses layers looks like for materials. Probably just export out a uv template, import in to an image editor, and create your masks. How those masks might be applied in SL is your call. Creating the masks themselves shouldn't be too difficult, maybe you could invert the AO map and do a bit of erasing/fading and apply that as your mask? Just conjecture for conversations sake of course. Maybe an in app procedural inversion of your effects with some kind of strength falloffs is possible as a mask? Seems like something that would be accounted for pretty up front with a tool like SL.

A 2D app is a 2D app regardless of what company made it. SP is just a 2D App for 3D .So anyway you want to make a mask you can :) paint ,textures ,materials ,procedurals etc etc same as in your 2D app. You can just paint the textures no mask needed but those material/procedurals look killer n fast to make. I've just never really textured with procedurals n mask before. n Half to say my skill level at this ,underground ,looking forward to making it to the basement ;)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I want to thank Lyrra for her early explanations and demos in this thread.

I would have liked to ask a few On Topic questions and learn some more.

Respectfully

Izi

PS: Rudeness is an immature and unacceptable response to being corrected, but here it's just ignored.

So much, dear moderators, for this site's 'good behaviour' policy.

Edit: Oh, wait... I might be thinking of another site.

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)