My radar for Poser is more limited, a hobbyist that creates 2D images. A while ago I've been putting up images over on DA rather than here, and browsing over there too. I've noticed more and more Genesis based renders. I have no idea on it's use in other areas like animation and in the gaming development arena. Also reading the forums here there's grumbling over less and less quality V4 content.

With Genesis 3, I have the feeling the divide is widening. I haven't tried V7 into Poser, but from what I've seen here it's a PITA to get running if you can.

My gut is telling me if I want to use Genesis, leave Poser behind and go to DAZ Studio, at least for non V4 renders. From browsing DA, looks like a lot of others are doing that too. Is DAZ and Genesis killing Poser?

This might be a subject best avoided I think. Besides, its been done...time and time and time again. Do a forum search. You'll get as many opinions as there are members.

Laurie

I've read a bunch of threads treading around the subject, but not asked so directly I guess it what I'm getting at.

I'm short and to the point (ish).

I know this can be a contentious issue, but if we can be civil it seems to me it's a subject worth addressing. I only use Poser, so my knowledge of DAZ is limited, but my sense is that people are impressed by the Gen 2 and 3 figures and their resources. Gen 2, I understand, works with some difficulty in Poser, and Gen 3 works hardly at all. I suppose this is a strategic issue for DAZ, to get more people to bypass Poser. That's a shame. I'd like to experiment with the Gen 3 figures, but am reluctant to shift my attention to a different program. I like Poser, I'm used to it. I am curious to see how the new Paul/Pauline figures come together. I see a lot of grouching about Poser, but I think most of it is misplaced. But still, I'd like to see more (civil) comparisons. And is there hope that some day the new DAZ figures will work easily in Poser? Like V4/M4?

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How come no one ever comments about all the other CGI softwares . DAZ Poser are just a small part of the CGI universe. Why don't we ever hear what effect does free Blender, $10 mudbox ,$20 Allegorithmic or $100 Houdini have on Poser ?

Why your checking out DA's gallerys .check out Allegorithmic ,Mudbox ,zBrush gallerys. Also SmithMicros Manga Studio gallerys are cool also.

Best gallery wins popularity. All Poser needs is Best Gallery.

============================================================ 

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I think one of the reasons that the appearance of Poser's big slowdown is the new version has a fairly high price. Certainly vendors are leery of investing a large amount without seeing more of the tools in action. Smith Micro and P11 users have been slow on rolling out tutorials. There are a good number of renders coming out. I'm a Poser fan and buyer and hope to see more products and tutorials (not just talking paid ones, but youtube ones) that show what can be done with the newest software version. If more people show interest then vendors will develop more for P11. A lot of the renders and lighting effects are excellent. I'd like someone to post some free youtube tutorials on the other strengths of P11.

The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.

dnstuefloten posted at 2:11PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249311

I know this can be a contentious issue, but if we can be civil it seems to me it's a subject worth addressing. I only use Poser, so my knowledge of DAZ is limited, but my sense is that people are impressed by the Gen 2 and 3 figures and their resources. Gen 2, I understand, works with some difficulty in Poser, and Gen 3 works hardly at all. I suppose this is a strategic issue for DAZ, to get more people to bypass Poser. That's a shame. I'd like to experiment with the Gen 3 figures, but am reluctant to shift my attention to a different program. I like Poser, I'm used to it. I am curious to see how the new Paul/Pauline figures come together. I see a lot of grouching about Poser, but I think most of it is misplaced. But still, I'd like to see more (civil) comparisons. And is there hope that some day the new DAZ figures will work easily in Poser? Like V4/M4?

I hope for civility too. I like Poser, and am pretty heavily invested in it but it's not the only program out there.

Gen 3 is pretty impressive, and I'm really considering giving it a go. But I do use Octane with Poser, so that means I either pick up the DAZ Octane plugin and shaders for it, or go with Iray.

I almost went to Gen 2, but the differences and content didn't seem worth fighting with DSON.

I don't see how anyone thinks the content is different/better.

It's the same content sold over and over and over again.

http://www.daz3d.com/seasons-outfit-for-genesis-3-female-s

http://www.daz3d.com/seasons

http://www.daz3d.com/seasons-for-genesis

LOL, every time they release a new girl, they just sell the same thing over again at another $20.00

I feel that Poser is a lot more intuitive to use on some fronts (Posing, Lights, Dynamic cloth, getting eyes to point at things and general program use) But content is king. Daz is a large content house that has created new figures with more realistic attributes. This now includes the application to run it on, so more power to them. Much of the Poserverse was dependent on Daz for their content (V4,A4 etc) but that has all changed now that it's become an either or situation. I have been trying to work with DS but I find it hard to adjust. Also a lot of my content doesn't look right in DS. While this is probably my own failing I can't seem to justify the cost to move to an entirely new platform and basically junk the thousands of dollars I have already invested and spend many thousands more on what could become obsolete in a few more years. It's sad but this is how business works, I for one don't know if I am ready to become the collateral damage in the wake of this type of progress. I think overall the future would be better if all programs could work together, this in the end would greatly strengthen this technology and more it forward the most, but who am I to say I just a user.

I hope the rift widens. I'd really like to see most of the crybaby helpless load and render folks head over to Genesis/DS and the repetitive big lingerie shopping spree in the sky. More power to them. Good luck, so long! Poser should dump the absurd content burden it's been saddled with and concentrate on animation and in-Poser rigging, content, and character creation tools. High time Poser circles its wagons and worries about the important stuff... the writing is on the wall. I can't be the only weirdo that thinks this...

---

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The absurd amount of junk that Poser comes with needs to go... maybe then the app wouldn't be as costly out of the box. Do away with the pro version, totally micky mouse... an insult. Those tools should all be in one version. Poser costs more than 3dCoat fer christsakes, an absolute joke.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

This isn't something that can be reduced to a single sound-bite.

Genesis 3 facial bones don't work in Poser, so I wouldn't look to it ever working in Poser - It's only a loss if you need a fat chick. Poser is a bit further up the 3d chain than DS is. And once Daz implements content encryption (as they have been talking about), I don't see DS moving out of it's niche (although I suspect that is why they are now pushing the Morphs3d website. They are following Poser's lead into 3d game content).

There have been chicken littles proclaiming the death of Poser since I got my first copy over 11 years ago. The people hollering it usually have an agenda. If it was dying, we wouldn't be getting new versions every 24 months or so.

The markets and the business models for the two programs are different - most people in these and other forums have a hard time grasping this simple fact.

DAZ's business model is built around selling you figures and content.

SM's business model for Poser is selling you the toolset, so that you can leverage the content you already own or desire, rather than replace your content - that is why we have things like the fitting room, the cloth room, etc. Poser enables you to add new features to your legacy content (like weight-mapping) rather than requiring you to dump your products and buy new ones. As Poser users, we don't have to go out & buy a new wardrobe everytime a new figure comes out (other than shoes - shoes are still problematic).

The best example/comparison I can give is with the render engines built into each program. With DS & genesis 7, you get to buy Iray shaders for almost everything (at $17.95 a pop). With Poser, anyone has the ability to extend the program to add that capability for free (or pay) - rather than dumping a couple hundred dollars into Iray shaders, we can simply download EZSkin 3 and quickly convert all of our current shaders to work with Poser's new render engine, Superfly (which is based on the Cycles render engine in Blender). What works better for you? For me, it is all about value for the dollar.

There has been grumblings over V4 content for some time. Vendors work under the If I make it, they will buy it along with I only make what I am personally interested in.
What we are having trouble getting vendors to understand is that:

A. It is no longer October 2007. You can not expect to see the sales for a brand new figure to equal V4 out of the gate. V4 at the time, was a major advance over V3 & Sydney. The market has fragmented and the added capabilities in Poser have changed buying decisions for customers.

B. The V4 market has been saturated for quite some time. What does your hookerware bring to the table that the last 144 outfits didnt'? They don't like that question.

C. With the release of Wardrobe Wizard (and later Xdresser, and now the Fitting Room), clothing has been decoupled from figures. This is a major game changer that vendors have yet to acknowledge. I have dozens of outfits for V4 that have never gone on V4. When a new figure comes out, I don't have to go out & buy content for it (other than shoes). I have run my V4 clothing runtime (60+GB) through the fitting room and it is available for any figure I choose.

So what does this last point mean? If a vendor wants to sell me an outfit - it has to be better (or different) than anything I already own, for any figure I already own. I was not surprised that vendors are having a tough sell for figures not named Victoria 4. Those of us who are using them can quickly leverage our legacy content, so that new product needs to be higher quality to convince us to buy it. That takes time (and work).

Vendors have made it quite clear over the past few years that their production pipeline is based on how quickly they can get a product out the door, not how well the product is made. I actually had a vendor tell me they didn't have the time to learn the features of Poser 9 - while making their first product for Dawn, a character that can only be used in Poser 9 or later. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader how many products I would purchase from that particular vendor.

I don't see Poser dying anytime soon. There is some shift towards DAZ and the Genesis figures in the marketplaces, but please keep in mind that SM does not rely on content sales. Poser comes with a good array of stuff, the Fitting Room does allow to transfer clothing to the weight mapped figures pretty easy. A lot of Poser users still use V4 and the stuff they bought for it, the figure is still functional and has lots, lots of stuff. I don't see why I should change to DAZ or to Genesis.

We don't know how many Poser licences SM sells, thats the number which makes Poser's life and death. I like the new version a lot (probably I will like it even more after a couple of bugs are ironed out), I think a lot of people will change in time. I hope that more vendors will make stuff for the newer SM figures. But still I have more than enough stuff to play with, even if I would not make my own.

For a vendor, well, I don't know. As long as the majority of Poser users still use V4 as main figure it will be difficult to sell the Poser fraction a lot of new stuff, agreed. But I guess you don't mean that with "dying"?

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
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Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

Some of Poser's tools could use some updating, such as the the Face Room and Dynamic hair styling, but overall it's better than ever.

However, one potential issue is Smith Micro's financial situation; their stock price has been very low for the past several years. Poser is just one part of a larger diversified software portfolio; their main business is embedded wireless networking software, in which they've invested about $90 million in acquisitions over the last decade. Yet, at the moment, their market capitalization is only about $29 million....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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@gator762

Just give daz studio a try i did as a long term poser use heavily invested in v4 items and i do not regret it. IMHO the G3 figures are a lot better then anything for a reasonable price on offer. With some tweaking you can use V4 clothing, hair, shoes. You can also use most of the other poser content that you purchased. You will not need to buy new iray shaders for all of your poser stuff. WM poser figures will lose the WM in DS and textures for characters will not always work good in IRAY.

Daz studio takes some getting used to but it is not that hard.

I am still using poser to, it depends on what i want to create.

Michel

ssgbryan posted at 5:10PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249330

The best example/comparison I can give is with the render engines built into each program. With DS & genesis 7, you get to buy Iray shaders for almost everything (at $17.95 a pop). With Poser, anyone has the ability to extend the program to add that capability for free (or pay) - rather than dumping a couple hundred dollars into Iray shaders, we can simply download EZSkin 3 and quickly convert all of our current shaders to work with Poser's new render engine, Superfly (which is based on the Cycles render engine in Blender). What works better for you? For me, it is all about value for the dollar.

I use both programs, so I have to respond to this. I haven't bought ONE Iray shader since Iray was introduced and I make all my own shaders. It's not rocket science. I just wanted to clarify. I haven't spent one red cent on shaders, and I have hundreds of shaders now. I've given away a bunch as well. There will always be people like me who give away boatloads of stuff for each program so that that people on both sides don't have to buy if they can't or don't want to. As I recall, parrotdolphin released a nice collection of leather shaders for free for Iray right off the bat. So don't spread fallacies ;).

Laurie

When I look at the free stuff section here? There is hardly anything released for Poser these days.

I do not know if it is relevant at all but it sure is an objective way to measure something.

michelvanspeybroeck posted at 5:19PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249351

@gator762

Just give daz studio a try i did as a long term poser use heavily invested in v4 items and i do not regret it. IMHO the G3 figures are a lot better then anything for a reasonable price on offer. With some tweaking you can use V4 clothing, hair, shoes. You can also use most of the other poser content that you purchased. You will not need to buy new iray shaders for all of your poser stuff. WM poser figures will lose the WM in DS and textures for characters will not always work good in IRAY.

Daz studio takes some getting used to but it is not that hard.

I am still using poser to, it depends on what i want to create.

Michel

"WM poser figures" - You mean weight mapped?

I'm meaning to give DAZ Studio a whirl, as I want to give Genesis 3 a try. It's good to hear I can use a good portion of V4 content. I'm sure if I go and use it, I'll still use Poser for V4. For DAZ, the question will be Iray or Octane.

I don't think Poser is dying and can be put somewhat simple i think, if it were the case that it were, the argument to support it when reading through the posts seems to be due to the genesis figures and there integration with Poser. If SM saw this as a problem and they should because it would be good for them to support them, but on the other hand, they could also just hire a very good character modeller to make a competing man and women and add it to Poser, then there wouldn't be much of a problem?

And its sad they don't because they keep including these very old characters in there releases and to be honest some of them are outdated, like the old animal characters etc.

But when that is said, I think the misplacement of whether poser is dying or not, comes when you say one software vs another, because most people that make CG use a large number of programs for different purposes. To me it would be equal to ask whether Daz is dying because now you have Zbrush and you can make any character in there you want and you could keep asking questions like that, but the fact is that these program serves different purposes. And in most cases you are better off using both of them if needed.

You will rarely in my opinion at least, see a very interesting image of just a good looking character posing for the camera, you need all the other stuff to make it worth looking at, to make viewers think, evoke emotions etc. You will of course see these character images but most of these that are interesting to look at, is because these are unique character created in Zbrush or something and the creator have made them interesting. But looking at image after of image of for instant Genesis characters is not very interesting i think.

One of the best things for SM to do for future Poser releases i think, would be to get it integrated with Vray, which are the most common used render in the industry as far as i know. They already have the amazing Powerfusion so if they could hook Poser up to Vray, it would be a huge improvement, the amount of free resources suddenly made available to Poser users would make it take a quantum leap and you would get Poser closer to a final stage of being completely integrated with the rest of the industry.

So don't think Poser is dying, but Poser on its own can not cut it and honestly not a lot of software packages can do that, even people using 3ds max will use, Zbrush, Photoshop and other after effect programs. People should be more concerned about what image they can get out in the end and less concerned about how and which software they use to get to that image .

WandW posted at 3:26PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249343

Some of Poser's tools could use some updating, such as the the Face Room and Dynamic hair styling, but overall it's better than ever.

However, one potential issue is Smith Micro's financial situation; their stock price has been very low for the past several years. Poser is just one part of a larger diversified software portfolio; their main business is embedded wireless networking software, in which they've invested about $90 million in acquisitions over the last decade. Yet, at the moment, their market capitalization is only about $29 million....

Well, some tools do need updating - however, if people don't file reports with SM, stuff won't get fixed.

AFA SM's financial position - so what? The stock market hasn't mirrored reality in a couple of decades now.

Poser has been owned by many companies - DAZ has been owned by more than 1 company; a vulture capital firm owns them now. DAZ's revenue streams don't amount to budget dust.

For those who haven't use it yet, as mentioned above, EZSkin 3 (for P11) is a fantastic free add on by SnarlyGribbly. Totally worth downloading, using, and popping by to give him thanks (and the testers). I do like a ton of the great python plugins that work on P11 (though I want some of the others to be updated too).

The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.

tonyvilters posted at 5:48PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249368

When I look at the free stuff section here? There is hardly anything released for Poser these days.

I do not know if it is relevant at all but it sure is an objective way to measure something.

I'm working on it ;).

Laurie

Gator762 posted at 5:02PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249370

michelvanspeybroeck posted at 5:19PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249351

@gator762

Just give daz studio a try i did as a long term poser use heavily invested in v4 items and i do not regret it. IMHO the G3 figures are a lot better then anything for a reasonable price on offer. With some tweaking you can use V4 clothing, hair, shoes. You can also use most of the other poser content that you purchased. You will not need to buy new iray shaders for all of your poser stuff. WM poser figures will lose the WM in DS and textures for characters will not always work good in IRAY.

Daz studio takes some getting used to but it is not that hard.

I am still using poser to, it depends on what i want to create.

Michel

"WM poser figures" - You mean weight mapped?

I'm meaning to give DAZ Studio a whirl, as I want to give Genesis 3 a try. It's good to hear I can use a good portion of V4 content. I'm sure if I go and use it, I'll still use Poser for V4. For DAZ, the question will be Iray or Octane.

Yes i meant weight mapped.

Michel

ssgbryan posted at 6:08PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249378

Poser has been owned by many companies - DAZ has been owned by more than 1 company; a vulture capital firm owns them now. DAZ's revenue streams don't amount to budget dust.

Wrong. They haven't been own several times and a vulture capitalst firm does not own them now. We went through this in the DAZ forum here with that nonsense, let's not do it again and stay on subject..

I don't care what app's who uses I have a vey long list of App's I use.

It's never really been Poser vs DAZ it's more of what app runs G3.

What's G3 do that G1 or G2 don't do ? The answer is nothing. Other then you don't have her. I know I know the grass is greener on the other side. I have what 50 female characters. Think I'm good don't know what the 51st could do that the first 50 couldn't.10,000 renders of TnA I'm good.

I still want character that's as killer as the 2016 game characters. who ever has those in any platform ? Has my money. Vendors need to get substance live and some originality.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Anyone sensing a pattern.

OP asks about Poser, specific people begin attacking DS, DS users begin pointing out the flaws in those attacks (This is the point this thread is at), next will be the harassment and trolling of those DS users with some well established chants like "This is the Poser forum, you don't belong here!" or something like "I'm so TIRED of DAZ people coming here and attacking Poser!!!", Then a mod will step in and ask everyone to be civil. A few more snarky comments will come forth. Thread will then be locked and slowly it will sink into the place that all dead threads go. Tomorrow rinse and repeat.

Maybe a better question from the OP would be "Is Poser dying, surviving or thriving?". If you don't believe it's dying maybe try pointing out why its thriving instead of using this as a platform to attack the competition.

Doesn't really matter if Poser dies tomorrow to me. I'll still use it as long as I am still having fun making personal, bizarre little puppets with it. Everything up to the latest version is pretty well documented either officially or unofficially by users too. There really isn't a single technical aspect of the app from a user perspective, especially regarding what most interests me, that can't be learned if you do enough digging. The files are an open book if you care to look inside. Good enough for a while I think, irrespective of everyone else's goals.

---

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It seems counter productive for DAZ3D to shun it's Poser customers. They could make twice what they do if the models they created were, as before, both DAZ and Poser compatible. This looks like a personal vendetta with the greedy capitalist venture vultures being taken for a ride.

Gordon

Huolong posted at 9:33PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249418

It seems counter productive for DAZ3D to shun it's Poser customers. They could make twice what they do if the models they created were, as before, both DAZ and Poser compatible. This looks like a personal vendetta with the greedy capitalist venture vultures being taken for a ride.

Making something twice does not mean twice the money, especially if the market shifted in a different direction that people can't believe it shifted towards. The content buying market hasn't been 50-50 for years now.

ssgbryan posted at 9:39PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249378

Well, some tools do need updating - however, if people don't file reports with SM, stuff won't get fixed.

It's not bugs. per se; some stuff is simply clunky and old. I noted these particular ones when they did the user survey last year.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
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WandW posted at 8:52PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249424

ssgbryan posted at 9:39PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249378

Well, some tools do need updating - however, if people don't file reports with SM, stuff won't get fixed.

It's not bugs. per se; some stuff is simply clunky and old. I noted these particular ones when they did the user survey last year.....

Yeah, but SM expects it's customers to use the same reporting format (there is a choice, I believe it is general improvements or something.). It would probably help if they came onto this (and other) forums and remind everybody to follow the process.

is it me or does it seem all of DAZ Poser sites n forums are not as active as they once where ?

============================================================ 

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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I, too, think, that revamping some of the ancient tools, like the Cloth Room or Hair Room, could bring back some of the enthusiasm. I'm still a heavy user of the Cloth Room, as personally I think it's one of the best (at least one of my fav. =) ) Poser features, but it's still soooooo tedious and we're in 2016 already. I came in relatively late into the Poser family (Poser 7 I think was my 1st one), and it's still the same since and I guess it's there in this format quite longer. It's really time to step it up.

Does anyone remember this?

That was done like 6 (six!) years ago.

Poser is dying [1] and Studio is heading for the cloud so nobody has anything to gloat about. I see no sensible long-term strategy than trying to go to a full FOSS pipeline.

[1] SmithMicro financial and business outlook is simply horrible. Sprint (70% of their income) has started the move to other products and Sprint revenues are projected to be 1/3 down just in 2016. Delisting from NASDAQ in March is certain unless SM gets an extension of the grace period (which will give only a 6 month not renewal respite until Sep 2016) or a reverse stock split is performed (and in this case shorters will feast on SM body until the share price goes again below 1$). SM problems stem from the top management and they recently added a poison pill option so no hope of a hostile takeover to send the board away. I see nobody (apart from DOCOMO shiver-emoticon-if-this-was-not-this-shit-of-new-editor) willing to buy SM graphics business.

In answer to the OP's question, it might depend on what you mean by dying. Do you mean the purchase of new versions is not happening or the use of Poser is dying?

I have yet to upgrade to Poser 11 and it is still no better than 50/50 whether I will or not. This is a departure for me as I have purchased every upgrade since Poser 5 including, unfortunately, Game Dev. With the upgrade a question I suppose you could say I am doing little to keep Poser alive. On the other hand I use Poser Pro 2014 on a daily basis although these days it is mainly with Dawn. I still buy Dawn products and I have purchased a lot of sci-fi scenes from Daz recently, some are new but still support Poser and some old products where the vendor has moved on to Daz only. Big plus for me though is all of these products have been heavily discounted. I am still buying Hivewire3D family related stuff from but, of course, most of that can be used both in Poser and Daz.

I hope Poser keeps going, it's imminent death has been forecast for the ten years I have been doing the hobby, but if it fails it does not mean I will stop using it from there on in.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

hornet3d posted at 8:25AM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249478

In answer to the OP's question, it might depend on what you mean by dying. Do you mean the purchase of new versions is not happening or the use of Poser is dying?

I have yet to upgrade to Poser 11 and it is still no better than 50/50 whether I will or not. This is a departure for me as I have purchased every upgrade since Poser 5 including, unfortunately, Game Dev. With the upgrade a question I suppose you could say I am doing little to keep Poser alive. On the other hand I use Poser Pro 2014 on a daily basis although these days it is mainly with Dawn. I still buy Dawn products and I have purchased a lot of sci-fi scenes from Daz recently, some are new but still support Poser and some old products where the vendor has moved on to Daz only. Big plus for me though is all of these products have been heavily discounted. I am still buying Hivewire3D family related stuff from but, of course, most of that can be used both in Poser and Daz.

I hope Poser keeps going, it's imminent death has been forecast for the ten years I have been doing the hobby, but if it fails it does not mean I will stop using it from there on in.

I haven't been using Poser nearly as long, I dabbled very lightly earlier with 9. I didn't really get into it until I picked up Pro 2012, now on 2014. I'm not sure 11 has any features that I'm really in, especially since I have Octane for a renderer. But I admit I my hobbyist use uses very few features of Poser.

i still play with P7 and PP12.

i can't bring myself to meet the sticker price for newest. and it sounds complicated to activate the s/w and keep it activated.

(paid 65.oo for the carrara upgrade)

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Gator762 posted at 1:53PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249490

hornet3d posted at 8:25AM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249478

In answer to the OP's question, it might depend on what you mean by dying. Do you mean the purchase of new versions is not happening or the use of Poser is dying?

I have yet to upgrade to Poser 11 and it is still no better than 50/50 whether I will or not. This is a departure for me as I have purchased every upgrade since Poser 5 including, unfortunately, Game Dev. With the upgrade a question I suppose you could say I am doing little to keep Poser alive. On the other hand I use Poser Pro 2014 on a daily basis although these days it is mainly with Dawn. I still buy Dawn products and I have purchased a lot of sci-fi scenes from Daz recently, some are new but still support Poser and some old products where the vendor has moved on to Daz only. Big plus for me though is all of these products have been heavily discounted. I am still buying Hivewire3D family related stuff from but, of course, most of that can be used both in Poser and Daz.

I hope Poser keeps going, it's imminent death has been forecast for the ten years I have been doing the hobby, but if it fails it does not mean I will stop using it from there on in.

I haven't been using Poser nearly as long, I dabbled very lightly earlier with 9. I didn't really get into it until I picked up Pro 2012, now on 2014. I'm not sure 11 has any features that I'm really in, especially since I have Octane for a renderer. But I admit I my hobbyist use uses very few features of Poser.

Your use may change over time, for the first few years I never went into the material room let alone think about modifying or creating materials. Despite the fact I had played a little in the past it is only really in the last year that I have started to use the cloth room, thanks to the dynamic clothing available for Dawn. I am so taken with the results I would really miss the cloth room now.

That is one of the problems with defining if any piece of software is dead. If you start using Poser but later add Octane for the rendering is it really true that Poser is starting to die because you only use it to set a scene. Most users do not stick with just one piece of software, but a selection of packages that suits their needs and workflow. As long as a certain piece of software is used in a workflow somewhere I think it is still very much alive, in one sense at least.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Not relevent to me if poser dies or not I only user Poser and DAZ content for my C4D animation projects.

I get animated Genesis Figures into Maxon C4D Via OBJ/MDD (Thanks Daz!!)

and Native poser figures animated in C4D Via the interposer pro plugin (Thank you Robert Templeton) I get Stonemason's ,now Daz only content ,into C4D via the riptide professional Object importer for Maxon C4D (Thank You "spanki")

I create most of My Figure motion in Iclone Pro (Thank You Reallusion)

I truly,,truly pity those who only know who to use ONE 3D application and have their creative objectives tied to that ONE 3D application.....sad :-(

My website

YouTube Channel

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My website

YouTube Channel

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My website

YouTube Channel

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My website

YouTube Channel

looks very cool :)

I know this is an explosive issue but my personal feelings are that Smith Micro is to blame for much of the discussion. The company recently threw Poser 11 onto the market but seems to have ignored the feeling of many that content is king. They gave us Pauline (ugly as hell) and then Paul who they won't even discuss... Daz3d has developed characters that are lifelike and designed to work with their own software. I do not feel the company has any obligation to develop characters that are Smith Micro friendly. I would like to see Genesis 3 figures compatible with Poser. BUT is it up to Daz3d or Smith Micro to develop compatibility?

I'd slightley disaggree. I wouldn't like to have DAZ' G3 Figures to work with Poser. I'd like to have Poser their own figures, that are at least as good as DAZ figures. I aggree with your opinion of Pauline and Paul.

drafter69 posted at 10:31AM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249539

I know this is an explosive issue but my personal feelings are that Smith Micro is to blame for much of the discussion. The company recently threw Poser 11 onto the market but seems to have ignored the feeling of many that content is king. They gave us Pauline (ugly as hell) and then Paul who they won't even discuss... Daz3d has developed characters that are lifelike and designed to work with their own software. I do not feel the company has any obligation to develop characters that are Smith Micro friendly. I would like to see Genesis 3 figures compatible with Poser. BUT is it up to Daz3d or Smith Micro to develop compatibility?

Your "feelings" don't have facts on their side. Sorry about that. DAZ's business model & SM's business models are not the same. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp?

Genesis 3 compatibility with Poser is up to DAZ - as has been pointed out to all and sundry since 2009. SM can not legally reverse engineer the code (violation of the DMCA). It is DAZ's Code - it is up to them, and they have made their position quite clear.

What do you think genesis 3 brings to the table? I am serious in asking this question. I am running it in DS and I don't see a single thing (not one) that makes it worth purchasing; the characters made for it look EXACTLY like their genesis 2 predecessors - the only new thing I can see was a fat chick. What I don't see is this alleged "better bending". Do I have to dislocate every limb to see it? Can I see the improvements if the characters keep their clothes on?

What is the difference between Olympia 6 & Olympia 7, or Teen Josie 6 & Teen Josie 7? Other than the requirement to purchase "genesis 3" versions of content I already own and the inability to leverage skin textures between figures.

I have never been in favour of SM spending time in getting Genesis to work in Poser as I would much rather they spent their time improving Poser, or adding to, Poser features. I now have a bigger concern with Daz appearing to move to a form of DRM, it is possible that even if Genesis itself worked there is a question on how much content would.

Even if Pauline and Paul do not improve, and it is early days, there is still the rest of the SM figures and a few more along with Dawn, Dusk and a number of other figures available with PE and possibly a few other females on the horizon. A personal point of view possible biased by the fact I cannot see what Genesis can do that other figures can't.

If Poser really is dying, and I stress the if, adding support for Genesis is not going to give it the kiss of life and by the time they got Genesis 3 working there would be Genesis 4, which would probably be very different again.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

ssgbryan posted at 7:30PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249553

What do you think genesis 3 brings to the table? I am serious in asking this question. I am running it in DS and I don't see a single thing (not one) that makes it worth purchasing; the characters made for it look EXACTLY like their genesis 2 predecessors - the only new thing I can see was a fat chick. What I don't see is this alleged "better bending". Do I have to dislocate every limb to see it? Can I see the improvements if the characters keep their clothes on?

I'd say that the only real improvement between G2x and G3x are expressions thru rigging and not thru morphs, something that could have well been supplied with G2x improved figures.

erm lets get something straight.

I quote. "they gave us Pauline (ugly as hell)" erm.** thats to you, in your opinion**.

bugs me when statements like that are put about. it's subjective. ok you personally think it's ugly. but me? nope. so it's not a basis for an arguement is it?

I don't like beetroot. I don't make the blanket statement everyone thinks beetroot is foul. because it's subjective to me.

and remember. the users of the forums are a small part of the userbase. ok, the most vocal, but less than what. 5-10%? not even that I'll bet.

Gator762 posted at 11:12AM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249370

michelvanspeybroeck posted at 5:19PM Fri, 15 January 2016 - #4249351

@gator762

Just give daz studio a try i did as a long term poser use heavily invested in v4 items and i do not regret it. IMHO the G3 figures are a lot better then anything for a reasonable price on offer. With some tweaking you can use V4 clothing, hair, shoes. You can also use most of the other poser content that you purchased. You will not need to buy new iray shaders for all of your poser stuff. WM poser figures will lose the WM in DS and textures for characters will not always work good in IRAY.

Daz studio takes some getting used to but it is not that hard.

I am still using poser to, it depends on what i want to create.

Michel

"WM poser figures" - You mean weight mapped?

I'm meaning to give DAZ Studio a whirl, as I want to give Genesis 3 a try. It's good to hear I can use a good portion of V4 content. I'm sure if I go and use it, I'll still use Poser for V4. For DAZ, the question will be Iray or Octane.

I use both Iray and Octane. and they both have their advantages. Considering Iray comes with DS, and there is a lot of content available with Iray shaders, Iray is pretty hard to beat (althoug I almost always have to tweak the shaders to get the look I want). Feature wise, Octane is much more versatile, and with Octane 3 the feature set will be even better. Octane is much less resource intensive than Iray, Iray will consume one CPU processor core when rendering, Octane hardly uses any CPU clock cycles at all. Octane has out of core texture capability which means that you can use system RAM for textures, so if you have a 2GB card/GPU, and have a scene that needs 6Gb to render, you can still render it using GPU (with a very slight hit to render speed). With Iray, you would need to switch to CPU only rendering (a big hit to render speed). Another advantage to Octane is if you want to use DS and Poser, you can get the Octane plugin for both and render in either application using the same render engine (in my case I have the DS and Carrara plugins - may add the Poser plugin some day). Version 3 will add many great features that can be seen here: https://home.otoy.com/otoy-unveils-octanerender-3-worlds-best-gpu-renderer/ The downside to Octane is that there are a limited number of products available with Octane shaders. But the auto-conversion is quite good, and the shaders are really easy to work with. Since I usually adjust the stock shaders regardless of application/renderer, I don't find this a huge negative, your mileage may vary.

__________________________________________________________

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Please...enough with the "fat chick" stuff. Some of the people reading this are heavy and I'm sure will be offended. You write it like it's the most horrible thing that could possibly be and it's not. Urgh.

Laurie

chaecuna posted at 7:41PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249559

ssgbryan posted at 7:30PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249553

What do you think genesis 3 brings to the table? I am serious in asking this question. I am running it in DS and I don't see a single thing (not one) that makes it worth purchasing; the characters made for it look EXACTLY like their genesis 2 predecessors - the only new thing I can see was a fat chick. What I don't see is this alleged "better bending". Do I have to dislocate every limb to see it? Can I see the improvements if the characters keep their clothes on?

I'd say that the only real improvement between G2x and G3x are expressions thru rigging and not thru morphs, something that could have well been supplied with G2x improved figures.

It seems it worked pretty well

ssgbryan posted at 1:33PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249553

drafter69 posted at 10:31AM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249539

I know this is an explosive issue but my personal feelings are that Smith Micro is to blame for much of the discussion. The company recently threw Poser 11 onto the market but seems to have ignored the feeling of many that content is king. They gave us Pauline (ugly as hell) and then Paul who they won't even discuss... Daz3d has developed characters that are lifelike and designed to work with their own software. I do not feel the company has any obligation to develop characters that are Smith Micro friendly. I would like to see Genesis 3 figures compatible with Poser. BUT is it up to Daz3d or Smith Micro to develop compatibility?

Your "feelings" don't have facts on their side. Sorry about that. DAZ's business model & SM's business models are not the same. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp?

Genesis 3 compatibility with Poser is up to DAZ - as has been pointed out to all and sundry since 2009. SM can not legally reverse engineer the code (violation of the DMCA). It is DAZ's Code - it is up to them, and they have made their position quite clear.

Incorrect again. If they reverse engineering anything, it would be the plugin for the DSON importer, then you would be correct. But the DSON specification is free to use, offered to SM, and the specification is availble from their site and you can read the definitions just like you would read a spec for an obj file, or even incorporating the Cycles engine to become superfly. I'd let this argument go... but then this is why there's no poser support for Genesis 3. So it's best to just leave DAZ out of it; the bottom line is that SM is responsible for their user's needs, not DAZ. So to keep throwing DAZ into the conversation doesn't move the conversation along. If Paul and Pauline is SM's response to their user's figures needs, then that's the answer you live with when you buy the next version of the software.

What do you think genesis 3 brings to the table? I am serious in asking this question. I am running it in DS and I don't see a single thing (not one) that makes it worth purchasing; the characters made for it look EXACTLY like their genesis 2 predecessors - the only new thing I can see was a fat chick. What I don't see is this alleged "better bending". Do I have to dislocate every limb to see it? Can I see the improvements if the characters keep their clothes on?

I think you've been proven wrong every time you recycle this same argument. ;) The differences are there, especially if you raise v4's arm and v7's. It's not hard to come to the conclusion that there are differences, and those differences are driving a few marketplaces now. But once again, this really isn't DAZ's issue anymore.

EDIT: And I agree with Laurie's comment about "fat chick", we can make statements without being offensive.

LaurieA posted at 7:45PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249567

Please...enough with the "fat chick" stuff. Some of the people reading this are heavy and I'm sure will be offended. You write it like it's the most horrible thing that could possibly be and it's not. Urgh.

Laurie

Thanks, well said :)

chaecuna posted at 1:46PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249559

ssgbryan posted at 7:30PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249553

What do you think genesis 3 brings to the table? I am serious in asking this question. I am running it in DS and I don't see a single thing (not one) that makes it worth purchasing; the characters made for it look EXACTLY like their genesis 2 predecessors - the only new thing I can see was a fat chick. What I don't see is this alleged "better bending". Do I have to dislocate every limb to see it? Can I see the improvements if the characters keep their clothes on?

I'd say that the only real improvement between G2x and G3x are expressions thru rigging and not thru morphs, something that could have well been supplied with G2x improved figures.

Not with triax rigging because of the way higher resource requirements of the facial rigging and extra bones including those in the hands, feet, neck and heel, which is why it was dropped and Dual Quaterion rigging is used instead. Also with the new rigging it can be imported into Maya, 3dsmax, modo, or any other app that supports the rigging.

Can anybody explain how Dual Quaterion works, and why it is not compatible with Poser and what might be the reason for SM to dicide to not include this into the present Poser release?

Whether you agree or approve I am entitled to my "personal feelings" on this matter. I blame much of the discord on SM.. For a long time they seem to have treated their program as a sideline joke..... So, you are entitled to your feelings.... BUT they are your feeling, not mine.

Your "feelings" don't have facts on their side. Sorry about that. DAZ's business model & SM's business models are not the same. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp?

Genesis 3 compatibility with Poser is up to DAZ - as has been pointed out to all and sundry since 2009. SM can not legally reverse engineer the code (violation of the DMCA). It is DAZ's Code - it is up to them, and they have made their position quite clear.

What do you think genesis 3 brings to the table? I am serious in asking this question. I am running it in DS and I don't see a single thing (not one) that makes it worth purchasing; the characters made for it look EXACTLY like their genesis 2 predecessors - the only new thing I can see was a fat chick. What I don't see is this alleged "better bending". Do I have to dislocate every limb to see it? Can I see the improvements if the characters keep their clothes on?

What is the difference between Olympia 6 & Olympia 7, or Teen Josie 6 & Teen Josie 7? Other than the requirement to purchase "genesis 3" versions of content I already own and the inability to leverage skin textures between figures.

"Can anybody explain how Dual Quaterion works, and why it is not compatible with Poser and what might be the reason for SM to dicide to not include this into the present Poser release?"

https://www.google.com/search?q=dual+quaternion+skinning

... because Poser development generally doesn't add things like WMing, SSS, GI, PBR, GC, ad nauseam until about a decade after they are standard in other apps (and then mostly in their $500 pro version only)... think I'm kidding? I use a copy of modo 302 from 8 years ago that has all those features on a 10 year old computer. Area lights? Caustics? Accurate blurry reflections? Ancient history. Just a little peeve I have with Poser and in particular that "I could use better software, but then I'd have to be an artist. and what's the sense in that?." Quote from BB. By that logic; Ok, so you just become a time warped "artist" a decade later then? Lol. Don't get me wrong, love Poser and BB's brilliant... but just saying.

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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

One of the things I learned when I was involved in marketing is to never whine and bitch about how smart the mice have become.... build a better fucking mouse trap. Smith Micro is one of the most fucked up companies I have seen in years. They offer a program that is usually flawed from day one and then offer all sorts of fixes when others do their work. They promise a lot but deliver very little. As for Poser 11 why is it I don't hear **any praise **on how wonderful the program is and how wonderful the new figures are??????? All I see Smith Micro fans do is attack another company because they are offering what the SM fans are not getting. I have no intention of perusing this discussion. If Smith Micro eventually goes out of business they can only have there selves to blame.

Whether you agree or approve I am entitled to my "personal feelings" on this matter. I blame much of the discord on SM.. For a long time they seem to have treated their program as a sideline joke..... So, you are entitled to your feelings.... BUT they are your feeling, not mine.

Your "feelings" don't have facts on their side. Sorry about that. DAZ's business model & SM's business models are not the same. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp?

Is Poser Dying? The only answers you will get here will all be very subjective, the only people that really know the answer to this question work for Smith Micro, and I seriously doubt they would post here to confirm if it is dying.

I think looking at content trends at the various DS/Poser sites can give us an idea related to market shares, and it would appear that Poser is loosing ground in market shares, though even this could be skewed since the only real legitimate current competitor figures to Genesis seem to be V4 and Dawn. V4, which seems to still be the go-to Poser figure, has been around so long that no doubt the market is saturated, so waning sales for V4 may be more to do with that, than a major drop in market shares for Poser.

I have noted several long time Poser users that have not upgraded to P11 (myself included - more on this latter), the reasons vary, and it's not that uncommon to see this at the release of a new Poser version. I have also seen a lot of long time Poser users posting images done with DS/Iray, this trend could change now that Poser has Cycles (Superfly - I still find it hard to warm up to this name). IMHO there is enough ancillary evidence to indicate that Poser is losing some of market share that I think this is probably true. It doesn't mean Poser is dying, but I think is does mean that SM has to up their game a quite bit.

As for why I didn't upgrade, it's not a simple answer, but the main reasons fall in three categories. The first being that I didn't see the value in feature set upgrades to warrant the cost of the upgrade. This was actually quite close, the integration of Cycles to me was a huge plus, and feature wise it was very close. The lack (still) of instancing was one of the factors that influenced my decision, as did the lack of any improvements in dynamic cloth (and dynamic hair a bit too). But feature wise I was still pretty much on the fence, because I was really interested in Cycles.

The second area was figures, This was no doubt influenced by the statement from Nerd3d "content is king". My take away from that statement was that finally, either Poser was going to implement native support for Genesis, that they were finally going to deliver their own figure that wasn't borked on release, or possibly they had worked a deal with Hiverwire to either include Dawn, or provide a dramatically reduced (in price) "value stack" for P11 users. So, maybe my expectations were a bit too high? Regardless, dumping a "not quite ready for prime time" figure on P11 users was IMVHO a sign of either a company that just doesn't get it, or the sign of a company that just needed to get something out the door....now. Regardless of the reason, it seems highly unprofessional to me to put a figure out with the problems that Pauline has, more or less expecting the user base to fix her. Seeing this, after the person in charge of Poser development said content is king, made me question the value of this upgrade even more.

The third factor in making my decision to not upgrade to P11 was partially influenced by the state of Pauline on release, the total lack of high quality Cycles renders from the user community within the first few weeks, and the library issues. Right or wrong, I got the impression that P11 was released before it should have been. I can understand some issues with a new library system, but it seemed like there were some critical logic errors that should have been vetted and fixed before release. For me though, the total lack of great user renders coming for Superfly was a huge red flag. You implement a new render engine which is one of your biggest selling points, yet none of your beta testers are flooding the forums and galleries with renders that make this a must have upgrade??? Seriously? Finally, almost two months later, renders that show off what superfly can do are showing up in more frequency. I was on the closed beta team of the Octane plugin for Carrara, and our small group put out more renders for the release of the public beta (at release) than SM did for superfly. To add to this, I was producing decent renders using Iray within 36 hours of getting my hands onthe 4.8 beta and Iray (the image here: https://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/the-corridor/2661869</https:> was done in the first 48 hours), it may not be the greatest image, but the shaders were all tweaked by me from the auto Iray conversion provided with DS, and using EIS profiles on the mesh lights. My point here being that I would expect to see numerous (100+) images of a similar and/or better quality within the first week from P11/Superfly. Just take a look at the Demo Reel made for the public release of the Octane for Carrara public beta here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GeGGs_QU-I. Granted, it's not super awesome, but when you consider the images were generated by a 4 person closed beta team (while learning/testing) and one developer, I would have expected at least this level/number of images in the forums and galleries from SM showing off superfly. Again, this made me feel that either P11 was rushed out the door, or SM simply doesn't get that having a lot of great user renders on release is important. Either one give me reason for pause.

Ultimately, I decided not upgrade. This is something that could change later, I'm not saying I won't ever upgrade, but for now, P11 doesn't give me anything I'm comfortable risking my money on for rushed software. Oh, I almost forgot one other issue. The lack of a real EULA for Paul and Pauline, they're supposed to be merchant resources, but as far as I have been able to ascertain, there is no real EULA for them yet. Again, not something I would expect from commercial software (trust us, go ahead and use the figure, we'll let you know what you can legally do with it later).

IMHO, moving forward SM/Poser will need to bring more improvements and features to the table or their market share will begin to decline (if it hasn't already). They also need to ensure that future Poser releases are solid, and don't appear as rushed releases. Poser still has some good features that aren't available in DS, but as is stands for me going forward, as a commercial product, Poser not only needs to match the new features that show up in DS (like PBR), but exceed them with other useful new features.

For those that have upgraded, please keep posting your superfly images, and progress on Pauline, and other good things about P11. This is all very important to any possible future upgrades for me (and possibly for others as well).

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

drafter69, watch your language, or at least tag your posts if you're going to talk like that.

Male_M3dia posted at 6:41PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249572

Not with triax rigging because of the way higher resource requirements of the facial rigging and extra bones including those in the hands, feet, neck and heel, which is why it was dropped and Dual Quaterion rigging is used instead. Also with the new rigging it can be imported into Maya, 3dsmax, modo, or any other app that supports the rigging.

I'd expect rigged expressions to use fewer resources than morphs. Of course, I suppose the morphs woudn't be loaded in Studio unless they were actually dialed in...

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RorrKonn posted at 6:45PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249458

is it me or does it seem all of DAZ Poser sites n forums are not as active as they once where ?

I don't think Forums in general are as active as they once were. There is an active Poser Creations group on FaceBook (Dodger posts a lot there these days), which is where a lot of forum-type stuff in general is going.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

@Dustrider

Your reading of Poser 11 is very close to mine and I too have not upgraded. I am also not very happy with the deactivation service and I notice that the promised Internet portal for activation still appears to be missing, probably in the pipeline along with the EULA for Pauline and Paul.

Yes I am being critical and some will say that is why Poser is dying because the users are ungrateful yet when they introduced Sub Surface Scattering it was very different. I still remember the renders that were being shown weeks before the release and BB going into depth on how it could be used. The thread at RDNA ran for page after page and most were far from critical. I for one could not wait to get my hands on the upgrade. Compare this with what was shown for Superfly, there really is no comparison, even now the number of Superfly renders do not exceed what was shown for SSS before launch.

The cost of the upgrade was higher than usual, despite the fact that Paul did not make it into initial launch. I am very much in a wait and see mode but there will need to be changes both to Pauling and Superfly before I am really tempted. Mind you I did not like Dawn when she was first launched but now the figure is very different from when launched so improvement is possible, but then Dawn never had a $200 price tag.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

WandW posted at 7:32PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249610

Male_M3dia posted at 6:41PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249572

Not with triax rigging because of the way higher resource requirements of the facial rigging and extra bones including those in the hands, feet, neck and heel, which is why it was dropped and Dual Quaterion rigging is used instead. Also with the new rigging it can be imported into Maya, 3dsmax, modo, or any other app that supports the rigging.

I'd expect rigged expressions to use fewer resources than morphs. Of course, I suppose the morphs woudn't be loaded in Studio unless they were actually dialed in...

The resources deal with weight maps per bone. I believe the dual quaterion was something like 1 or 2 maps per bone and triax was 6. So multiply six maps by all the facial bones and extra bones and you would see the resource issue, so the facial rigging would not have happened. Triax is a much better rigging system but less portable; DQ is the industry standard so any company could incorporate it in their program. So really if people are trying to get Genesis 3 in Poser in that other thread, they probably should just export the standard expressions included as morphs and reimport them and toss the facial rig.

Please don't blame SM allone. There has been a survey on RDNA before release. It looked like SM followed most of what "that" community wished for. Since that community's worst panicing nightmare is to loose backward compability, I wonder what is left to improve on Poser. Better shaped and rigged Figures - maybe? However, I guess, this has been my last Poser. I think I'll go with the next IClone release.

hornet3d posted at 6:47AM Sun, 17 January 2016 - #4249614

@Dustrider

Your reading of Poser 11 is very close to mine and I too have not upgraded. I am also not very happy with the deactivation service and I notice that the promised Internet portal for activation still appears to be missing, probably in the pipeline along with the EULA for Pauline and Paul.

Yes I am being critical and some will say that is why Poser is dying because the users are ungrateful yet when they introduced Sub Surface Scattering it was very different. I still remember the renders that were being shown weeks before the release and BB going into depth on how it could be used. The thread at RDNA ran for page after page and most were far from critical. I for one could not wait to get my hands on the upgrade. Compare this with what was shown for Superfly, there really is no comparison, even now the number of Superfly renders do not exceed what was shown for SSS before launch.

The cost of the upgrade was higher than usual, despite the fact that Paul did not make it into initial launch. I am very much in a wait and see mode but there will need to be changes both to Pauling and Superfly before I am really tempted. Mind you I did not like Dawn when she was first launched but now the figure is very different from when launched so improvement is possible, but then Dawn never had a $200 price tag.

Guess I'll co-sign Hornet and Dustrider on their opinions. There's obviously a shift in momentum and mindshare away from Poser and towards Studio. Even if you plan to continue using Poser as I do, you'll have to take into account the issues in the Poserverse from the parent company down to the final product and on to the vendor support. You have to consider that Poser's gone from the king of a relatively small niche market to a struggling contender in a growing consumer 3D market. That market consists of cheap 3D printers, free software like Studio, Sketchup, and Blender as well as alternate content markets like the Unity store, Mixamo, etc. Throw in simplified animation tools, free game engines and the like and the landscape looks very different than it did 5 or 6 years ago. There is nothing to suggest that Smith Micro is willing or capable of adapting to the challenge.

The solution in my mind, especially after watching Adobe gobble up or outperform its competition, then implementing an "eff you, pay me" business model, lies along what Wolf359 alluded to in a previous post. Diversification. I'm no more inclined to throw all my eggs into a Daz3D basket than I am to pay full price for the latest version of Poser. I'm very much interested in the workflow Daniel Eskridge and others have created where multiple softwares, many of them free, are integrated into the whole. It gives you a lot of autonomy and more flexibility to produce better art in my opinion. I plan to create art for many years to come and don't want to be at the mercy of any one company or their vendors.

________________________________

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My Website

DustRider posted at 4:22AM Sun, 17 January 2016 - #4249594

For me though, the total lack of great user renders coming for Superfly was a huge red flag. You implement a new render engine which is one of your biggest selling points, yet none of your beta testers are flooding the forums and galleries with renders that make this a must have upgrade??? Seriously? Finally, almost two months later, renders that show off what superfly can do are showing up in more frequency.

Aside from the shader gurus, it's never seemed to me that the Poser community that frequents the forums -- particularly in the last few years -- was ever much about renders at all, but far more into figures and their creation. Some long time and very active users have admitted to never doing renders except to show off their figures or rigging or morphs. So it wouldn't surprise me to find that the beta testers were taken from such a group. Unfortunately, users who don't spend most of their time on rendering probably also won't collect a lot of content, and as a result, the library bugs weren't noticed. Not getting a whole lot of renders out to the community would be another side effect.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, since it seems to me that P11 was largely filled with content creation features and upgrades. So naturally you'd want a beta group of content creators. But Superfly did not get the attention that perhaps it needed.

I have P11, but I don't use it because of the library issues. I also wouldn't use Superfly at all because it's just too slow. How many people have concluded that they might as well use their current Poser version with Lux rather than shell out more money for yet another super slow renderer? Many of us aren't using robust enough hardware to really use SF ; it kills my lowly i7 and I don't have an Nvidia vcard. Should I ever get an Nvidia card, I'm definitely going to go with Octane, though, because I don't have the patience to wait an entire day for a little web sized render.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

The introduction of Iray is when I really sat up and took notice of Studio. I was already starting to use Studio for M4 clothing conversions to use with M5 in Poser, and I was slowly putting some effort into actually working with the program. Iray just clicked with me, and my old first-gen i7 can handle it even just rendering in CPU mode (I'm at the point I basically can no longer use Reality/Lux on my machine). I bought in the March sales all of the conversion tools to leverage my V4/M4 collection with Gen2, and I found a new spark and joy with this hobby.

I'd put a lot of hope into Poser 11, but as mentioned by other posters above, there were no images of Paul, Pauline, or Superfly that made me feel that "I had to have this". In fact, it was quite the opposite. Add another 35% for the dollar exchange rate at the time (it's now 45%), and the cost isn't worth the upgrade to me. PP2014 will be my last version of Poser for the foreseeable future. I'm glad some people are very happy with P11 and enjoy solving the challenges it presents. I'm just no longer up for that challenge.

lady-morana.deviantart.com

I have been away and popping in rarely over the past 6 years due to having a family and losing a lot too,but now I have more time and have started to return to the poser good I've noticed a huge daz shift, the renderosity MP is predominantly genesis and so are the galleries, this doesn't bother me, I still like V4 and all the old figures, wasn't sure if the new features of poser 11 were going to be any good, but I'm impressed, and I'm looking forward to VWD cloth and hair,so I'm pretty happy with poser, ok there could be some updates that are long overdue, but all in all DAZ has nothing to offer me, in fact,it's new business model is good for me as I'm saving money instead of giving it to them, so carry on DAZ,I will stick with poser as it's a very good piece of software (not app).

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

shedofjoy posted at 8:10PM Sun, 17 January 2016 - #4249715

I have been away and popping in rarely over the past 6 years due to having a family and losing a lot too,but now I have more time and have started to return to the poser good I've noticed a huge daz shift, the renderosity MP is predominantly genesis and so are the galleries, this doesn't bother me, I still like V4 and all the old figures, wasn't sure if the new features of poser 11 were going to be any good, but I'm impressed, and I'm looking forward to VWD cloth and hair,so I'm pretty happy with poser, ok there could be some updates that are long overdue, but all in all DAZ has nothing to offer me, in fact,it's new business model is good for me as I'm saving money instead of giving it to them, so carry on DAZ,I will stick with poser as it's a very good piece of software (not app).

One of the reasons that the galleries show a Genesis bias is that some Poser users have deleted their galleries and do not post here any more. Others that still do, find little in the market place for them and don't visit as often, again reducing the gallery upload. I am not saying that is the full story by any means and there is certainly a drift to Daz and Genesis but just because someone deletes their gallery does not mean they have stopped using Poser just as not buying here does not mean Poser users have stopped buying Poser content, they have just moved on.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

I've had my head inside Daz Studio for many months now. I kinda like it, I do like Iray, but I like Poser too. I wasn't going to buy Poser 11, but probably will eventually after they fix some of the bugs. EZSkin 3 goes a long way toward that decision, because while I know my way around the material room a little bit, I was HUGELY disappointed that they conformed Superfly materials to the f-ed up material room that I will forever think is way too difficult for the average hobbyist (Daz Studio has managed to make the Iray materials pretty easy to make very involved shaders and still have a way to do all the nodes and really complicated stuff in the background - I wish SM could learn from that). At least EZSkin will take away a little of bit of the sting in that area. I'm not crazy about the new Poser figures, but they aren't nearly as homely as the Poser 7 and 8 figures and even the Poser 9 figures. So, at least on that front there's been a slight improvement, tho I haven't been that impressed by the bends I've seen so far.

The fact of the matter is that there are pros and cons to each program and no reason why someone can't use both (after all, I use at least two modeling programs regularly and even do half a model in one and finish in the other). Poser has dynamics which I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE...as dated as it is, something DS's dynamics probably won't have with the same degree of usability for goodness knows how long, if ever.

Laurie

Facebook ,Well I've gone from mailing list to forums guess face book is a option but I thought they where rated G squeaky clean and censored to the max. Just don't sound like a place for Art or Free Speech for that matter. So tell me again why every one would run to a place where there told what they can say.

Ladies and Gentlemen

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

LaurieA posted at 5:54PM Sun, 17 January 2016 - #4249738

I've had my head inside Daz Studio for many months now. I kinda like it, I do like Iray, but I like Poser too. I wasn't going to buy Poser 11, but probably will eventually after they fix some of the bugs. EZSkin 3 goes a long way toward that decision, because while I know my way around the material room a little bit, I was HUGELY disappointed that they conformed Superfly materials to the f-ed up material room that I will forever think is way too difficult for the average hobbyist (Daz Studio has managed to make the Iray materials pretty easy to make very involved shaders and still have a way to do all the nodes and really complicated stuff in the background - I wish SM could learn from that). At least EZSkin will take away a little of bit of the sting in that area. I'm not crazy about the new Poser figures, but they aren't nearly as homely as the Poser 7 and 8 figures and even the Poser 9 figures. So, at least on that front there's been a slight improvement, tho I haven't been that impressed by the bends I've seen so far.

The fact of the matter is that there are pros and cons to each program and no reason why someone can't use both (after all, I use at least two modeling programs regularly and even do half a model in one and finish in the other). Poser has dynamics which I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE...as dated as it is, something DS's dynamics probably won't have with the same degree of usability for goodness knows how long, if ever.

Laurie

I installed DAZ Studio 4.8. I've only had my head in there for an hour or two, so far it's been slow as it's quite different so I have to learn how to do what I know in Poser.

However, with Iray and their built-in shaders I'll give them that it's a lot easier to get better results than with Poser's Firefly. That may change with Poser's Superfly, I don't know. I'm relatively new to all this, 2 or 3 years. I think part of what made Poser's material room so difficult for me was that it didn't react so much as in real life as with unbiased rendering. Lots of tricks with fake reflection maps and stuff to get sorta good results. Same went with lighting. When I switched to Octane, lots of the difficulty I had with those things went away.

I want to get my hands on Victoria 7, I'm mostly interested in the details, and my gripe with V4 - she's showing her age.

I see nothing wrong with using Ds and poser, after all they are tools, and are used to produce an outcome, I don't agree with V4 being old, just people get bored and want something new, that's commerce, and I don't blame anyone for wanting to use V7 but for me I don't want to fart arse around trying to get something to work with something it wasn't ment to work with (poser, as that's what I use), generally It ends up with me getting annoyed with it after wasting x amount of hours when I could have done it quicker with what I already have.

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

Part of it is due to how people here use Poser. There is no point in upgrading if you don't actually use anything that has been added to Poser since the release of Poser 4. And I think that is why many are attracted to DS, it has a Poser 4 feature set with a PBR bolted on.

Poser may be dying in the 'Rosity forums, but let's not kid ourselves - most people (and vendors) here are still stuck in October 2007. I think that is the reason 'Rosity has gone from 4500 - 6000 members online at any one time to not cracking 3000 since the last site "redesign". If you want to see a good example of that - dig through the forum archives - the level of vitriol is the same as today, but back then there was a lot more information available.

Timberwolf earlier mentioned how SM was surveying the forum members over at RDNA. Well, those forums ARE the official SM Poser forums. In addition, that community is more open to letting go of a Poser 4 workflow, IMO - I have no idea where you are getting that "backwards compatibility is most important" nonsense from. Figures that take advantage of modern versions of Poser are sold there - not here. In addition to that, those new figures aren't savaged in the forums like they are here. Nor do they allow vendors to disrupt threads the way the mods do here.

Tools to extend Poser capabilities are sold over there, not here. Subforums to leverage features in Poser are there, not here. If you are using Dawn as your primary female mesh - why spend a single minute here? Your time would be better spent at Hivewire. SM figures, 3rd party figures, or Poser itself - The RDNA forums are where the action is.

There is very little "new knowledge" to gather in the forums here. And if "new knowledge" did show up here, what are the odds that we would get an e-bot notification of it?

'Rosity Thread from December 2004:

Subject: I want to know the the future prospect of poser.

ssgbryan posted at 3:20AM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249818

Part of it is due to how people here use Poser. There is no point in upgrading if you don't actually use anything that has been added to Poser since the release of Poser 4. And I think that is why many are attracted to DS, it has a Poser 4 feature set with a PBR bolted on.

LOL you know that's not even true. People are switching because it's not holding on to anything of poser and its advanced features: UDIM, Dual Quaterion, auto fit, auto morph generation, Iray the ease of use in making and using content and most of all figures that spur the most arguments in the forums because they surpass the low quality stuff being offered for a premium.

Poser may be dying in the 'Rosity forums, but let's not kid ourselves - most people (and vendors) here are still stuck in October 2007. I think that is the reason 'Rosity has gone from 4500 - 6000 members online at any one time to not cracking 3000 since the last site "redesign". If you want to see a good example of that - dig through the forum archives - the level of vitriol is the same as today, but back then there was a lot more information available.

So the user base is splintered across versions because not everyone has actually upgraded. So if those people haven't upgraded because they're not finding the value, whose fault is that?

Timberwolf earlier mentioned how SM was surveying the forum members over at RDNA. Well, those forums ARE the official SM Poser forums. In addition, that community is more open to letting go of a Poser 4 workflow, IMO - I have no idea where you are getting that "backwards compatibility is most important" nonsense from. Figures that take advantage of modern versions of Poser are sold there - not here. In addition to that, those new figures aren't savaged in the forums like they are here. Nor do they allow vendors to disrupt threads the way the mods do here.

Actually it was a big argument here and there about not wanting to let go of their vast library of content. So if they won't let go of the content, it's hard to let go of the workflow either. And that spills into how the weight mapping and superfly was bolted on to keep compatibility rather than move forward and replace it with actual industry standard features.

Tools to extend Poser capabilities are sold over there, not here. Subforums to leverage features in Poser are there, not here. If you are using Dawn as your primary female mesh - why spend a single minute here? Your time would be better spent at Hivewire. SM figures, 3rd party figures, or Poser itself - The RDNA forums are where the action is.

Those things are barely selling, even there it's Genesis 3 and V4. A few are making some pauline items, but it will probably fail like antonia, michelle and dawn because they are so flawed and no customer ends up buying them.

Is Poser dying? for me it is, i have lost interest in 3d, I dont feel like updating or trying other software (Daz Studio... i tried it, i just dont get it, and yes its hard, gave me a headache), Blender, Wings, i gave those a shot too, didnt know what i was doing, heck i dont even know how to use Poser to the fullest... Fitting Room? uh? i dont get it, really... makes me upset, i have spent quite some cash with V4 stuff but thats enough. No more, i give up.

Who finds a friend finds a treasure!

Suucat posted at 10:58AM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249832

Is Poser dying? for me it is, i have lost interest in 3d, I dont feel like updating or trying other software (Daz Studio... i tried it, i just dont get it, and yes its hard, gave me a headache), Blender, Wings, i gave those a shot too, didnt know what i was doing, heck i dont even know how to use Poser to the fullest... Fitting Room? uh? i dont get it, really... makes me upset, i have spent quite some cash with V4 stuff but thats enough. No more, i give up.

Ha :) I understand. I tried more than a decade ago to get into 3d and I failed too. Softwares were a little bit easier to learn than today because of less features to learn. The only app besides Poser, that made sense to me was Cinema4D. I whould still go with it, but I cannaot effort it anymore. What I want to say is, learning a 3d software is never easy and you will loose a lot of hair if you try. Part is you mentioned the software that is most hard to learn IMO: Blender. It is powerfull, free and man I don't see no rhime or reason with it. so that's why I'm stuck with Poser and DAZStudio. Big and serious 3d software is too expensive for me, it is hard to learn and it doesn't have that community based content like Poser have. Are you going to quit 3d? You'd better do and I wish I could follow you. Doing some workout and working on a carreer. That whould be much healthier, than playing with 3d dolls all day and night long. So NewYears resolution is: get a life. ;)

Is Poser dying? for me it is, i have lost interest in 3d, I dont feel like updating or trying other software (Daz Studio... i tried it, i just dont get it, and yes its hard, gave me a headache), Blender, Wings, i gave those a shot too, didnt know what i was doing, heck i dont even know how to use Poser to the fullest... Fitting Room? uh? i dont get it, really... makes me upset, i have spent quite some cash with V4 stuff but thats enough. No more, i give up.

I think you put it well or at least to some degree. People that are interested in doing 3d will not find programs to do so, that are easier to use than Poser and Daz3d when it comes to using and posing characters. I think a lot give Poser a rough feedback, maybe worse than it deserve, but guess thats because they expect it to do more than it can or maybe they would like to do something that it just can. But as you write the alternative is to move to one of the other 3d packages and anyone that have tried one of these will agree that the learning curve, going from Poser/Daz3d to one of these is very steep. Its not a question of, if Poser/Daz3d doesn't cut it, then people will just move to one of these programs, like a switch can be made in a couple of weeks or so, it takes years of practice. And even if we leave those programs out, and people think that Daz3d might be better than poser in some areas, they will run into problems with that as well at some point.

There is a lot of talk about render engines and Iray being better etc etc. But I don't think im mistaken if anyone that make graphic doesn't spend a lot of time in PS afterwards to fix up there images, even if they are rendering in applications like 3ds max, maya etc. And there render engines are much better. Here is an example i did in 3ds max before PS and after.

Before PS:

After PS:

Looking at the actual render its pretty boring and flat. Fixing it up in PS certainly makes it more interesting. Im not a professional 3d artist or anything or claiming the image is extremely good, but simply to show that even if the initial render is not perfect you can do a lot using other programs like PS. I don't expect 3ds max to throw out a perfect looking image, i know I will have to fix it up in PS afterwards anyway.

And think people look at some of the renders other people make and if they can't get the same results straight out of Poser, then it must be because they were rendered in Daz3D, which give them "ammunition" to have a go at Poser and think that is a bit off. Even if Daz3D have a better render than Poser, nothing prevent you for manipulating the final image in PS or Gimp or whatever is preferred, everyone else does it as well. But of course Poser could be better, but again its very good at what it does, working with characters, cloth, posing, user friendly etc. But no one should expect it to throw out fantastic images just by changing some dials in the render settings i think.

hornet3d posted at 7:09AM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249734

shedofjoy posted at 8:10PM Sun, 17 January 2016 - #4249715

I have been away and popping in rarely over the past 6 years due to having a family and losing a lot too,but now I have more time and have started to return to the poser good I've noticed a huge daz shift, the renderosity MP is predominantly genesis and so are the galleries, this doesn't bother me, I still like V4 and all the old figures, wasn't sure if the new features of poser 11 were going to be any good, but I'm impressed, and I'm looking forward to VWD cloth and hair,so I'm pretty happy with poser, ok there could be some updates that are long overdue, but all in all DAZ has nothing to offer me, in fact,it's new business model is good for me as I'm saving money instead of giving it to them, so carry on DAZ,I will stick with poser as it's a very good piece of software (not app).

One of the reasons that the galleries show a Genesis bias is that some Poser users have deleted their galleries and do not post here any more. Others that still do, find little in the market place for them and don't visit as often, again reducing the gallery upload. I am not saying that is the full story by any means and there is certainly a drift to Daz and Genesis but just because someone deletes their gallery does not mean they have stopped using Poser just as not buying here does not mean Poser users have stopped buying Poser content, they have just moved on.

You know, hornet, I think that's the part they just don't get.

DAZ PAs quit providing Poser products, so Poser users moved on.

Renderosity quits providing Poser products, Poser users move on.

They made their choice. They demand Poser User follow them to DS or move on.

Poser isn't dying. Poser USERS are moving on.

Buying some paint and canvas doesn't magically make you a painter. Pressing the Bossa Nova button on a casio keyboard doesn't mean you're a drummer or composer. I think the only problem with Poser is the type of user base and corresponding mentality it's burdened with. It's so far along and ingrained that it's inseparable... Unfortunately it's encouraged by the company itself. Daz is just refining and reaping the rewards of that mentality whereas Poser seems to be in a state of confusion over it.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

When I remember correctly, my first Poser was version 2 and that was by Fractal Design, the next version 4 was from Metacreations, then came Curios Labs with 5 to 7, since Poser 8 we have Smith Micro so, Poser never died and I'm pretty sure we'll see Poser 20 one day, which company is selling the licences then, no one knows. It's the userbase that keeps Poser alive and also the large number of freebies created by the community.

---

Ulli

"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!"

Agree on that freebie community front there Jules53757. I would have probably abandoned Poser as a creative tool if that aspect of all this weren't in place.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

It seems like the forum-driven Poser communities may be dying, but WandW is correct that forums across the board seem to have less traffic than in the past. Poser development seems healthy and the Poser Team seems optimistic about the future. It's a hard question to answer. No one knows the size of the Poser user base, now or in the past, except maybe Smith Micro types who aren't telling.

In a long term sense, I expect the future of computers to be cloud-based, subscription-driven, and oriented toward tablets and smartphones. A program like Poser might have a hard time adapting to that situation, and certainly a harder time pulling in new customers and users on our hobbyist level. Younger people seem to use computers less for creativity and more for consumption and socialization. Maybe my sample base is too limited, but the impression I have is that there are and will be fewer people drawn to using computers the way we have for a couple of decades. I assume they won't be interested in a Poser, and may never even learn about it. My assumption, based on all of this, is that Poser faces an ever-dwindling user base. I hope I'm wrong about every bit of this, though.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

WandW posted at 8:46AM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249610

Male_M3dia posted at 6:41PM Sat, 16 January 2016 - #4249572

Not with triax rigging because of the way higher resource requirements of the facial rigging and extra bones including those in the hands, feet, neck and heel, which is why it was dropped and Dual Quaterion rigging is used instead. Also with the new rigging it can be imported into Maya, 3dsmax, modo, or any other app that supports the rigging.

I'd expect rigged expressions to use fewer resources than morphs. Of course, I suppose the morphs wouldn't be loaded in Studio unless they were actually dialed in...

It is both resources (skinning is heavier than morphs in general) and ease to weight map it. Tri-Ax uses 7 weight maps per bone, with the number of bones involved, that is prohibitive (both ways). Dual Quaternion is one map per bone.

Suucat posted at 10:48AM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249832

Is Poser dying? for me it is, i have lost interest in 3d, I dont feel like updating or trying other software (Daz Studio... i tried it, i just dont get it, and yes its hard, gave me a headache), Blender, Wings, i gave those a shot too, didnt know what i was doing, heck i dont even know how to use Poser to the fullest... Fitting Room? uh? i dont get it, really... makes me upset, i have spent quite some cash with V4 stuff but thats enough. No more, i give up.

If you want to do it, don't give up so easily. I can't speak to learning DS as I only installed it a few days ago. It takes time!

Poser seemed to be pretty good to learn on. I am far from an expert, but there's basics you gotta get a handle on.

1. Manipulating the cameras
2. Placing and posing your objects and figures
3. LIGHTING! Probably the most important thing impacting the quality of your renders.
4. The materials (although you can buy a lot, still, you'll want a basic understanding).

Good thing with Poser is that there's a ton of how-to videos out there to do those things. Personally, as a 3D newbie lighting gave me a lot of grief until I got an unbiased renderer (Octane). That's where I think the new version of Poser and DS will shine for newbies, pre-set materials that will offer novices pretty good results.

Jules53757 posted at 5:15PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249858

When I remember correctly, my first Poser was version 2 and that was by Fractal Design, the next version 4 was from Metacreations, then came Curios Labs with 5 to 7, since Poser 8 we have Smith Micro so, Poser never died and I'm pretty sure we'll see Poser 20 one day, which company is selling the licences then, no one knows. It's the userbase that keeps Poser alive and also the large number of freebies created by the community.

You are delusional.

Last time Poser was sold it was 2007, 9 years ago. Poser 6 was obsolete but the alternatives were few and primive (Studio had just been released 2 years before). In these 9 years things have changed: Studio 4.8 blows away Poser on every issue but dynamic clothing, programs like Blender have gone from the pre 2.5 dark ages to 2.76b and tools like Unity and Unreal provide the platforms to develop what I have described as "interactive movies".

The current value of Poser codebase approaches zero. Apart from the CR2 parser/unparser and the code for Poser proprietary rigging management, everything is so obsolete to be useless. Anybody buying today Poser would have to plan for a lot of effort to provide this minimal algorithmic core with a modern UI and modern tools on all aspects of the workflow. I really wonder whether this potential new entry would not be better served by starting from scratch on every aspect. There is only one party eager to buy Poser: DAZ. By buying Poser, DAZ could align it to their cloud strategy and impose on the whole community the inevitable consequences of unchecked monopolies: high prices, low quality, shitty user service.

I hope that poser does NOT become cloud based or subscription, I will not pay a monthly fee and as for the cloud my broadband supplier has given me 15 cutouts over Xmas, really useful for the cloud.and as for power users moving on, I won't be, I like poser and see no point in going to daz unless I wish to just throw my money away to do the same thing.

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

Part of the reason the forums seem to be dying on the vines is because of the behavior of some members & the endless arguments between Poser & DS users, which honestly is silly if you think about it. These types of threads get locked now because we have enough staff patrolling the forums so this behavior isn't going to run rampant any more. We want participation to go back up but when we lock one ugly thread another just replaces it. It's a never ending battle. Most folks who use Poser just aren't posting any more for fear of being tarred & feathered in the forums by members who just don't quit stirring the pot. Poser & DS can exist together & does quite well, imho. I don't feel that Poser is dying in the slightest, but Poser users are posting here less because of the turmoil so please try to keep things civil and remember to think about how you would feel if the post you are making was from someone else & directed toward you.

Have a creative day!

********

My Lil' Store

3DFineries posted at 12:39PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249902

Part of the reason the forums seem to be dying on the vines is because of the behavior of some members & the endless arguments between Poser & DS users, which honestly is silly if you think about it. These types of threads get locked now because we have enough staff patrolling the forums so this behavior isn't going to run rampant any more. We want participation to go back up but when we lock one ugly thread another just replaces it. It's a never ending battle. Most folks who use Poser just aren't posting any more for fear of being tarred & feathered in the forums by members who just don't quit stirring the pot. Poser & DS can exist together & does quite well, imho. I don't feel that Poser is dying in the slightest, but Poser users are posting here less because of the turmoil so please try to keep things civil and remember to think about how you would feel if the post you are making was from someone else & directed toward you.

I'm afraid not. Poser users are leaving because, just like this thread, ANY attempt at a conversation about POSER in the POSER forum becomes a forced conversation about DAZ.

Perhaps poser is dying as a commercial product, but I won't be surprised if some day it will be an open source program like blender or linux, that will be the best for the community and poser. There are enough enthoustiast and fanatic volunteers who will support it. Anyhow, it's something that will never happen to DS.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

"Because , just like this thread, Any attempt at a conversation about poser in the POSER forum becomes a force conversation about DAZ.”

I disagree, Any thread about poser that is not directly related to Figures usually run its course with no Drama.

But it seems few users here are very excited by how mesh lights work in “superfly” or how to make a cool bronze shader for “superfly” Nor do forum members seem particularly compelled to discuss the utilitarian advantages of the new CAD style Scene measurement tools in P11

Poser is about posing and rendering mostly female figures and the prevailing Opinion is that the native poser ones are less than stellar. And the DAZ ones are simply ..BETTER. To say nothing of cynical afterthought Male offerings like “Paul”..sorry, but thats is the reality of it

Get emotional, and combative and attack & troll The DAZ merchs all you want.. No matter.

Until SMITH MICRO alters this paradigm in some significant way with their own POSER NATIVE female figure and content technology, built to some top down UNIFORM STANDARD that leverages the LATEST VERSION of poser, the forum threads will inevitably follow this same tedious course.

My website

YouTube Channel

Shipments of computers, with the exception of gaming systems dropped by 8%-10% in the last quarter so that alone would suggest that there is a change happening with the use of computers in general. That change could affect any 3D software in the long term.

Over the last few years there has been a massive change the 3D hobby market place, not only the obvious split in the market but the introduction of new lights, Sub Surface Scattering and Weight Mapping to name a few. Sure many of these things existed in other software but they are now in the reach of users on a fairly tight budget. There have been changes in the render engines, not just iRay and Superfly but additions of things like Reality making the bridge Luxrender much easier.

We may moan a lot as a community but we have more choices available to us, in figures, materials, render engines, software and features than ever before. This makes the whole community much more diverse and makes the job of vendors particularly difficult trying to decide where to pitch their products. The end result will either be much higher prices or less profit to go around. Arguing over which software is best is not only futile but really only tinkering at the edges of what is happening in the wider community.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

CrystalGames posted at 1:41PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249840

hornet3d posted at 7:09AM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249734

shedofjoy posted at 8:10PM Sun, 17 January 2016 - #4249715

I have been away and popping in rarely over the past 6 years due to having a family and losing a lot too,but now I have more time and have started to return to the poser good I've noticed a huge daz shift, the renderosity MP is predominantly genesis and so are the galleries, this doesn't bother me, I still like V4 and all the old figures, wasn't sure if the new features of poser 11 were going to be any good, but I'm impressed, and I'm looking forward to VWD cloth and hair,so I'm pretty happy with poser, ok there could be some updates that are long overdue, but all in all DAZ has nothing to offer me, in fact,it's new business model is good for me as I'm saving money instead of giving it to them, so carry on DAZ,I will stick with poser as it's a very good piece of software (not app).

One of the reasons that the galleries show a Genesis bias is that some Poser users have deleted their galleries and do not post here any more. Others that still do, find little in the market place for them and don't visit as often, again reducing the gallery upload. I am not saying that is the full story by any means and there is certainly a drift to Daz and Genesis but just because someone deletes their gallery does not mean they have stopped using Poser just as not buying here does not mean Poser users have stopped buying Poser content, they have just moved on.

You know, hornet, I think that's the part they just don't get.

DAZ PAs quit providing Poser products, so Poser users moved on.

Renderosity quits providing Poser products, Poser users move on.

They made their choice. They demand Poser User follow them to DS or move on.

Poser isn't dying. Poser USERS are moving on.

Who in this thread demands that anyone move to DS...lol?! Either I need better glasses or you're making stuff up as you go.

Laurie

Just remember to keep it civil, courteous, and on topic regardless of your opinion. Thank you.

Have a creative day!

********

My Lil' Store

LaurieA posted at 2:01PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249919

CrystalGames posted at 1:41PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249840

hornet3d posted at 7:09AM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249734

shedofjoy posted at 8:10PM Sun, 17 January 2016 - #4249715

I have been away and popping in rarely over the past 6 years due to having a family and losing a lot too,but now I have more time and have started to return to the poser good I've noticed a huge daz shift, the renderosity MP is predominantly genesis and so are the galleries, this doesn't bother me, I still like V4 and all the old figures, wasn't sure if the new features of poser 11 were going to be any good, but I'm impressed, and I'm looking forward to VWD cloth and hair,so I'm pretty happy with poser, ok there could be some updates that are long overdue, but all in all DAZ has nothing to offer me, in fact,it's new business model is good for me as I'm saving money instead of giving it to them, so carry on DAZ,I will stick with poser as it's a very good piece of software (not app).

One of the reasons that the galleries show a Genesis bias is that some Poser users have deleted their galleries and do not post here any more. Others that still do, find little in the market place for them and don't visit as often, again reducing the gallery upload. I am not saying that is the full story by any means and there is certainly a drift to Daz and Genesis but just because someone deletes their gallery does not mean they have stopped using Poser just as not buying here does not mean Poser users have stopped buying Poser content, they have just moved on.

You know, hornet, I think that's the part they just don't get.

DAZ PAs quit providing Poser products, so Poser users moved on.

Renderosity quits providing Poser products, Poser users move on.

They made their choice. They demand Poser User follow them to DS or move on.

Poser isn't dying. Poser USERS are moving on.

Who in this thread demands that anyone move to DS...lol?! Either I need better glasses or you're making stuff up as you go.

Laurie

Not what the post said. Nice try, though.

Ok, I guess I DO need better glasses then :).

For those that wanna hear it - no, Poser will never die. It's here to stay.

Also for those that wanna hear it - nothing is forever. Take your pick. Those that want to will adhere to one set of beliefs, Others will cling to another set of beliefs. This topic is just as useless as usual.

Go out on a limb - use both. It costs you nothing to at least try the one. Whichever one you choose (or both), it's the right one. For you. That's what the whole convo boils down to really. Why people seem to think they have to stick with the one is beyond me. Sure, a lot of us are getting long in the tooth and learning something new can be daunting, but it keeps the mind sharp ;). I must have tried DS at least 30 times before it clicked. It took me a whole year to wrap my mind around Poser 4 and that was 20 years ago. I'm not abandoning either one. At least you'll have at least one to fall back on should the other go the way of the dinosaur.

Laurie

I don't care much for the hyperbole of 'dying', but to say Poser 11 has been slow off the start seems fair enough. I've upgraded, but only to the non-Pro version.

SuperFly is a nice engine, but it's not ready yet. To make things more complicated, the documentation supplied with Poser 11 is very sparse and not informative for people wanting to learn. I assume it works for people already up to speed with Cycles and just looking for Poser-specific implementations. Learning from examples becomes much harder when Poser 11 ships with only the smallest number of SuperFly materials. Blender/Cycles tutorials might seem the obvious alternative, but since SuperFly does not have all the nodes Blender does you inevitably hit a roadblock somewhere. The experts might argue these can be avoided, but the manual sure doesn't tell the uninitiated how.

That the team at Poser decided to hide GPU accelerated rendering on their new engine behind some arbitrary Pro license is baffling. SuperFly is the major change for most amateur users who might not need or understand all the content-creation tools that come with Pro. What we have now seems to be a render engine that can produce excellent results, but isn't a complete implementation of Cycles making learning it difficult, that doesn't ship with anything close to a meaningful collection of basic materials, and that is about as slow as FireFly unless you put down another $400 so the software magically learns how to make use of your Nvidia GPU hardware.

Had Poser 11 been released with a wide variety of materials that could have been applied to existing content I don't doubt we'd have seen a much larger number of SuperFly renders. Just dumping the software on the market and expecting people to dig through obscure forums for screenshots (making Google searches useless) of Poser-specific node setups is such an odd business decision.

adosity posted at 2:27PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249929

I don't care much for the hyperbole of 'dying', but to say Poser 11 has been slow off the start seems fair enough. I've upgraded, but only to the non-Pro version.

SuperFly is a nice engine, but it's not ready yet. To make things more complicated, the documentation supplied with Poser 11 is very sparse and not informative for people wanting to learn. I assume it works for people already up to speed with Cycles and just looking for Poser-specific implementations. Learning from examples becomes much harder when Poser 11 ships with only the smallest number of SuperFly materials. Blender/Cycles tutorials might seem the obvious alternative, but since SuperFly does not have all the nodes Blender does you inevitably hit a roadblock somewhere. The experts might argue these can be avoided, but the manual sure doesn't tell the uninitiated how.

That the team at Poser decided to hide GPU accelerated rendering on their new engine behind some arbitrary Pro license is baffling. SuperFly is the major change for most amateur users who might not need or understand all the content-creation tools that come with Pro. What we have now seems to be a render engine that can produce excellent results, but isn't a complete implementation of Cycles making learning it difficult, that doesn't ship with anything close to a meaningful collection of basic materials, and that is about as slow as FireFly unless you put down another $400 so the software magically learns how to make use of your Nvidia GPU hardware.

Had Poser 11 been released with a wide variety of materials that could have been applied to existing content I don't doubt we'd have seen a much larger number of SuperFly renders. Just dumping the software on the market and expecting people to dig through obscure forums for screenshots (making Google searches useless) of Poser-specific node setups is such an odd business decision.

I do agree with Poser 11 was released before it should have been. It simply is not a market ready product.

I, too, have the non-Pro version and am very happy I didn't spring for the higher price tag.

Now, I don't have a Nvidia card, so the GPU/CPU rendering simply doesn't apply to me. I am, however, glad I didn't run out an BUY a Nvidia card in anticipation of this software package and add that cost to a poorly implemented package.

The figures? Well, all I can say about that is evidently, they got so sick of being told how awful Rex/Roxie were, they decided to show us the definition of BAD.

Quote: The figures? Well, all I can say about that is evidently, they got so sick of being told how awful Rex/Roxie were, they decided to show us the definition of BAD.

I wish there were more people on the forums who actually made stuff, or hell, even a couple of gallery images. Lol. At least then I could feel like I were being ignored by like minded peers. As it is these threads just seem to be populated with no show blabbermouths with attitudes :) Ps. Excluding LaurieA from that blanket.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

EldritchCellar posted at 2:54PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249933

I wish there were more people on the forums who actually made stuff, or hell, even a couple of gallery images. Lol. At least then I could feel like I were being ignored by like minded peers. As it is these threads just seem to be populated with no show blabbermouths with attitudes :) Ps. Excluding LaurieA from that blanket.

Sorry, I don't put my stuff on Renderosity because doing so evidently means you give them carte blanch to use YOUR work in advertising, etc. without permission or attribution.

I don't agree to that.

CrystalGames posted at 8:59PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249934

EldritchCellar posted at 2:54PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249933

I wish there were more people on the forums who actually made stuff, or hell, even a couple of gallery images. Lol. At least then I could feel like I were being ignored by like minded peers. As it is these threads just seem to be populated with no show blabbermouths with attitudes :) Ps. Excluding LaurieA from that blanket.

Sorry, I don't put my stuff on Renderosity because doing so evidently means you give them carte blanch to use YOUR work in advertising, etc. without permission or attribution.

I don't agree to that.

There's not much left, if you don't want it. Deviantart.com has advertisments too and Daz makes it possible to share your work on social medias. RDNA's gallery seems safe, but not much frequented. The other two options mustn't mentioned here.

Where is your work. I always check out peoples work, it gives me a sense of that person. Here... basically nada from the people on the forums these days. There is the option for not 'include/use in advertising' checkbox crystal.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

For instance, chaecuna... you would think with such a grandios attitude he is one hell of an artist. I've searched high and low. Not a scrap. This is an artist's forum, regardless of the 'Poser' double entendre. It's one thing to be a 'troll' with art or contributions to the greater good or whatever... entirely something else when all you have is wind or in this case... gas.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

EldritchCellar posted at 3:32PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249938

Where is your work. I always check out peoples work, it gives me a sense of that person. Here... basically nada from the people on the forums these days. There is the option for not 'include/use in advertising' checkbox crystal.

If I wanted to share my work with anyone here, I would put up a link. I don't wish to do so.

I can't afford to have my name connected to places that sell pubic hair and whorehouses.

CrystalGames posted at 3:39PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249948

EldritchCellar posted at 3:32PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249938

Where is your work. I always check out peoples work, it gives me a sense of that person. Here... basically nada from the people on the forums these days. There is the option for not 'include/use in advertising' checkbox crystal.

If I wanted to share my work with anyone here, I would put up a link. I don't wish to do so.

I can't afford to have my name connected to places that sell pubic hair and whorehouses.

Actually you did post your images you made with easyskin 3.0 and Dawn from the RDNA thread, glitter, but I guess you forgot that's not the username you're using here anymore so you deleted it. Not sure why you're hiding under a different name now, but I did flag the post up to the mods to make sure you're supposed to be here.

EldritchCellar posted at 8:40PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249938

Where is your work. I always check out peoples work, it gives me a sense of that person. Here... basically nada from the people on the forums these days. There is the option for not 'include/use in advertising' checkbox crystal.

For what it is worth, my renders can be found at RDNA, either in the Dawn,Poser 2014 or the Vue gallery. Most of the others can be found at Hivewire3D in the 'Show us your Dawn renders' thread. I am not suggesting that they push any boundaries but if you want to get a sense of the person.

Until recently I did have a gallery here but I deleted all of the 200+ images mainly because all of the images were overwhelmed by advertising. Also, the main reason I had a gallery in the first place was to show how I had used products purchased here, as I no longer shop here that purpose is also dead. There are no where near 200 images in the other locations but it does show that I do use Poser on a regular basis.

This is a recent one the idea behind it was me trying to portray the saying "you could cut the atmosphere with a Knife'

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Male_M3dia posted at 3:53PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249949

CrystalGames posted at 3:39PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249948

EldritchCellar posted at 3:32PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249938

Where is your work. I always check out peoples work, it gives me a sense of that person. Here... basically nada from the people on the forums these days. There is the option for not 'include/use in advertising' checkbox crystal.

If I wanted to share my work with anyone here, I would put up a link. I don't wish to do so.

I can't afford to have my name connected to places that sell pubic hair and whorehouses.

Actually you did post your images you made with easyskin 3.0 and Dawn from the RDNA thread, glitter, but I guess you forgot that's not the username you're using here anymore so you deleted it. Not sure why you're hiding under a different name now, but I did flag the post up to the mods to make sure you're supposed to be here.

LOL, you're just obsessed with conspiracies, aren't you?

Oh. Crystal is glitterati. I see. Nevermind, I've seen your work. I can at least now approach any interactions from that footing... respect in that regard.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

CrystalGames posted at 3:58PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249952

Male_M3dia posted at 3:53PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249949

CrystalGames posted at 3:39PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249948

EldritchCellar posted at 3:32PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249938

Where is your work. I always check out peoples work, it gives me a sense of that person. Here... basically nada from the people on the forums these days. There is the option for not 'include/use in advertising' checkbox crystal.

If I wanted to share my work with anyone here, I would put up a link. I don't wish to do so.

I can't afford to have my name connected to places that sell pubic hair and whorehouses.

Actually you did post your images you made with easyskin 3.0 and Dawn from the RDNA thread, glitter, but I guess you forgot that's not the username you're using here anymore so you deleted it. Not sure why you're hiding under a different name now, but I did flag the post up to the mods to make sure you're supposed to be here.

LOL, you're just obsessed with conspiracies, aren't you?

No, I simply saw you post those same images and you were singing the praise of the version of poser you won, I clicked the flag button when I saw it and made the mods aware of who you are with the link on RDNA, and by that time I submitted the report, you deleted the post. Besides, you end up betraying yourself with the same type of responses. If you going to be someone else, can't do it in screen name only.

Years ago Rendo gave the option to change the user name, but they charged you for that. So no thx. :P

Wow, it worked. Somebody actually talked to me. Lol. Ok... back to working on my next freebie. Plug; erc/geometry switching conformer hands for Missus. Coming soon to my Sharecg gallery! ;)

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

I don't have my freebies here anymore, and of the Poser freebies that disappeared from ShareCG, some of the older ones will be returning, reworked and with updated shaders as well as some new ones. Maybe someday I'll bring my freebies back here, but it'll be a wait and see.

I guess maybe the original theme of the thread has run its course and no there were no casualties ;). Hopefully. LOL

Nah, I like Sharecg for my stuff Laurie. Wider range of contributors I think. More diversity? I do like rendos art image galleries though... I have a gallery as cartilage at RDNA but it just feels really cliqueish over at their forum. Anyway, yeah this thread ran its productive course a while back. Now it's just the typical regurgitations.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

Hornet, should have made dawn(?) Sitting across from V4. Little subversive context.

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

Yea, I guess it has run it's course although we never were going to come to any agreed conclusion to whether Poser was dying or not. Ironic really that we are spending time answering a question that can't really be answered while we have to accept we are all dying, it not a question of if but when and how so I guess that is the closet you are going to get in relation to Poser's future.

While it didn't answer the question I found it interesting to see people views, particularly on those who have upgraded to Poser 11 at least a basis for their viewpoint.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Well, I'm a vendor as well and my Poser creations are doing well so...

Have a creative day!

********

My Lil' Store

adosity posted at 6:34PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4249929

SuperFly is a nice engine, but it's not ready yet. To make things more complicated, the documentation supplied with Poser 11 is very sparse and not informative for people wanting to learn. I assume it works for people already up to speed with Cycles and just looking for Poser-specific implementations. Learning from examples becomes much harder when Poser 11 ships with only the smallest number of SuperFly materials. Blender/Cycles tutorials might seem the obvious alternative, but since SuperFly does not have all the nodes Blender does you inevitably hit a roadblock somewhere. The experts might argue these can be avoided, but the manual sure doesn't tell the uninitiated how.

I'm not sure if it was announced here or not, but there is a webinar coming up on Thursday all about using Superfly.

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?103342-WEBINAR-How-to-Get-the-Best-Results-from-Poser%92s-SuperFly-Render-Engine

"Well, I'm a vendor as well and my Poser creations are doing well so..."

I know. Although I don't have any of your things. I don't buy stuff anymore. Regardless of your sales I can't really comment on your modeling chops or your actual knowledge of Poser's internal workings other than observation of some of the things you've said here on the forum. Being a vendor and attaching 3d to the end of your moniker doesn't really indicate much to me, no offense. Just as being a Poser Ambassador doesn't really carry any artistic clout in my book, in general I'm pretty underwhelmed by those things.

Unfortunately my Poser artistic heroes are personna non grata on Poser forums (well, sometimes PhilC or Netherworks or JoeQuick or Stonemason will post something, very rarely. Teyon seems to have had enough too... Bagginsbill still holds court occassionally. No more Anton, no more LesBentley, Englishbob still sarcastically complains once in awhile lol. PoserClub Japan is kaput so no more that perspective either. There's still hidden away blogs. MortemVetus is cool, nice enough to friend me over at DNA, Truely flattered). Mostly it's genesis/v4 stuff anymore...Boring.

This is going to be totally off topic, or perhaps not, but...

I remember when I first started out with 3d and Poser (it came already installed on a gift computer, powermac g3, my first ever computer. It was Poser 3). I was studying toward my Scupture BFA at the time. I think the first figures I fell in love with were MayaDoll and Sixus1's H.E.R.

I caught the modeling bug a couple of years later. Anyway, I said to myself. "Wow, wouldn't it be really awesome (in my eyes, still to this day) if I could make something like H.E.R.? Sixus is a really cool artist (mad respect)."

It's a few years later now, I continue to work at this and learn the fundamentals. Y'know, all that Poser 4 workflow garbage and modeling, morphing, file manipulation basics that's so useless to other mighty poser artists that blather on about such things here. They just buy that stuff I guess.

I think I'll muck around in the freebie arena for awhile, I just started uploading stuff and images a few months back. Who knows I might just disappear tomorrow, happens all the time. But, here's the thing... In a 3 months time I've won 2 out of three render/art contest I've entered in. One of my first ever freebies is higher rated than Sixus1's H.E.R. figure at sharecg (does little dance, sheds little tear, bows before Sixus and the pantheon of Poser gods). I'd say that if I disappeared tomorrow, I could at least have that miniscule horn to toot. There's still a long ways to go... being a vendor? Meh. That can wait, if at all. I just want to make more stuff. ;) End of horn tooting rant (based on provable facts, no pie in the sky wishful sayso)... :)

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W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

Where's my cookie?

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W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

Ambassadors are usually people who can answer questions about the latest version of Poser because they're familiar with the more advanced workings. A number of the people you mentioned are also ambassadors. And if people spent more time asking questions about how this or that works, instead of arguing about whose dollie is better than everyone else's then maybe the forums would be more productive again.

And yes, one day Poser will die. So will DS and everyone in this thread. Eventually the earth is going to be swallowed by the sun and at some point the Milky Way is going to collide with Andromeda and most everything in both of them will die.

Ah ambient. You were always a total snob to me anyway, high and mighty. You still are high and mighty. Finish your figures. (Not to say I don't respect your talent. Judging by your few images).

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W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

But. Now I'm just being a self absorbed creep... I'll scatter.

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W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

I don't remember ever deliberately being a snob to you Eldritch and I'm far from "high and mighty". I just get sick of seeing the same dead horses being beaten over and over relentlessly and then people wonder why no one participates in these forums anymore, aside from the same dozen or so people. And my comments were not directed specifically at you other than the first line.

Yeah ambient, my skin is too thin and I have difficulty holding my opinions back. I mean no malice. Peace.

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W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

EldritchCellar posted at 1:01AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4249970

Hornet, should have made dawn(?) Sitting across from V4. Little subversive context.

Brilliant idea, you're right that would have worked on more than one level.

I often use Dawn and V4 together in my renders, strange thing is they seem to get on rather well.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

If only more people asked questions and there were informative replies. Problem might be that whatever the question it all seems to revert to the same well worn path that the threads here have taken for the past four to five years.

When the question is "Is Poser dying?" it is really difficult to be informative, particularly if you try and stay on topic. Still this has been informative at least regards Poser 11 and the information here along with the information at RDNA help me get a better picture of what Poser 11 is like. Mind you over at RDNA they are talking about semi transparent images saved when Superfly is involved and trying to help each other and find a work around while trying to get SM to fix it.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

From my perspective a lot of the opinions about Poser posted here are amusing. Is Poser dying? Apparently not because a lot of people are reading the thread(s) here. Sure the read count could be fudged, and it can, but I doubt that every thread is that far off on the read count.

As far as the images being posted to the gallery here, I don't post images here anymore and removed just about everything of mine from the site. That was my choice, and it does not really matter why I did, I just did. Lots of people have stopped posting here over the years, both in the forums and the galleries. Years ago I had notifications set up, and sometimes would comment on hundreds of images a week. I rarely get any notifications of gallery posts anymore because many of those people have moved on. No idea if they went to another 3d app, site, or just gave it up entirely. It didn't help matters much when Rendo broke a lot of the notifications either, but that is another issue that does not appear to have any priority at all anymore.

I also wonder about people saying that Superfly is not ready. Sure it is not exactly the same as Cycles in Blender, but for the most part it works as intended. Yeah, it would be great if it was just like Cycles, but 3Delight in Studio is a joke compared to full blown 3Delight, but you rarely hear much about that do you..

When FireFly came out, you didn't see a lot of killer renders from it either. Heck, you still don't. So, if the render sucks, it must be the engines fault, right???? I know, the engine is missing a fix my material settings button. (Actually that would be a cool option, someone that clams to know everything about it should write one, asap)

Poser is not dying off from my perspective, it just has people coming and going just like any other hobby. Yes there are a lot of holdouts that are still here and posting, but not a lot of them by any means.

People do a lot of complaining about everything around here. Some of them do what they can to make things better, some of them don't, and do nothing more than undermine everything they can possible shovel crap onto.. After a while those that don't, royally piss of the ones that do. It happens a lot, people just don't always know about it.

On the figure front: I have worked on a lot of figures and it never fails, it gets shelved in favor of the one many people are screaming to replace. Now they even get compared to ones that wont even work in Poser at all. Maybe we should compare Genesis 3 to a Physics rigged Figure in Houdini or Maya for a while. Suddenly Genesis would suck in the bending department, memory overhead, etc. I don't know anyone using Houdini or Maya that is upset that neither software publisher will touch Genesis with a 10 foot pole. But, But, someone said you can import Genesis 3 into any high end app? Sure you can, but guess what, you loose more of the Genesis functionality than most realize it even has to begin with. So what is the point in even doing that? It's no different than trying to get it in Poser. At least Genesis 1 and 2 could use DSON and sort of work, yet people just bitched about having that functionality. Can't imagine why they just gave up on that.... All people basically did was bitch about it, so why even go there again?

What many people don't know, is that the Genesis 3 rigging is 15 year old technology. It gets pushed by many as the best thing since sliced bread. I don't know about you, but I don't want a sandwich made on 15 year old bread.... Yeah, Genesis is a cool idea, and all of us have seen autofit, etc. But it wont work in Poser, get over it already. If I want to use Genesis, guess what, Studio is still free and I have and use it once in a while. Low and behold, Genesis works good in Studio. Who would have thought ??? Don't get me wrong, Dual Quad rigging has some advantages, but it also has some nasty disadvantages as well. It has so many that they came up with better ways of rigging about, 10 years ago. Genesis (the system) does a good job of getting around that, until you export it....

99% of what is wrong with the community, is the community itself. And if you look at how many users there are at sites like this, very few of them even bother to post in the forums. It's not hard to see why either. Many people bitch about getting what they asked for then wonder why they stop getting much of anything, even from the people that give it away. Poser isn't dying, the number of people that will put up with the bitching and complaining just don't appear on the radar.

/end wall of text...........................................

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I don't come here very often now but this subject is interesting. I've used Poser since version4 and updated to the various new versions.

Looking back at the very very early renders both here and other places, I see very little difference in the outcomes. Very easy to tell a Poser figure/picture both then and now. The figures still have the same look...mostly staring/smiling store dummies. The skin/body textures still look like Poser 4 renders. The expressions and morphs even still look awkward, like stuff from decades ago.

Maybe Poser should "die" and be resurrected again but this time with less plastic and more realism.

But for me, at the moment with this latest version,everything that matters is the same , worse luck.

shvrdavid posted at 11:27PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - #4250040

But, But, someone said you can import Genesis 3 into any high end app? Sure you can, but guess what,

Not without the $90 alembic plug-in. Otherwise it exports to the same formats that any Poser rig exports to. And Poser Pro 11 includes alembic export.

shvrdavid posted at 4:32PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250040

From my perspective a lot of the opinions about Poser posted here are amusing. Is Poser dying? Apparently not because a lot of people are reading the thread(s) here. Sure the read count could be fudged, and it can, but I doubt that every thread is that far off on the read count.

The thread read count is actually quite low here compared to other forums I visit, so it's not much of a yardstick for anything tbh.

I also wonder about people saying that Superfly is not ready. Sure it is not exactly the same as Cycles in Blender, but for the most part it works as intended. Yeah, it would be great if it was just like Cycles, but 3Delight in Studio is a joke compared to full blown 3Delight, but you rarely hear much about that do you..

So the issue here is negativity in the community yet the only thing you can say to that Superfly wasn't ready is a negative attack on a competitors render engine... Ready or not the marketing to this day isn't really selling the engine well. Try this, go to google images and type in 'Poser Superfly Renders' and tell me you feel like you have found something awesome. Try the same with a competitor.

When FireFly came out, you didn't see a lot of killer renders from it either. Heck, you still don't. So, if the render sucks, it must be the engines fault, right????

So you're inferring its the users fault that there is a lack of strong sellable renders coming from the Superfly engine? Interesting approach.

People do a lot of complaining about everything around here. Some of them do what they can to make things better, some of them don't, and do nothing more than undermine everything they can possible shovel crap onto.. After a while those that don't, royally piss of the ones that do. It happens a lot, people just don't always know about it.

It's the same in every industry and with every product. If you sell toasters that toast a perfect slice every time you will most likely hear nothing or very little. Sell a faulty batch that blows every ones fuses out and your phone will be ringing off the hook. It's not the responsibility of a consumer community to be supportive and understanding of a commercial offering. It's the responsibility of the provider to narrow the margin gap for complaint as much as humanly possible. And for the gap itself, that of unavoidable complaints, these issues should be dealt with in a reasonable manner without blaming the customer. Maybe if some here focused more on showing the strengths of Poser and less on trying to undermine its opposition a lot of threads wouldn't descend to the levels they do.

On the figure front: I have worked on a lot of figures and it never fails, it gets shelved in favor of the one many people are screaming to replace. Now they even get compared to ones that wont even work in Poser at all. Maybe we should compare Genesis 3 to a Physics rigged Figure in Houdini or Maya for a while. Suddenly Genesis would suck in the bending department, memory overhead, etc. I don't know anyone using Houdini or Maya that is upset that neither software publisher will touch Genesis with a 10 foot pole.

It's entirely different and again you're using a position of negatively attacking the competition to defend Poser, while complaining about the negativity in the community. The difference is the intended consumer markets are entirely different. You really think comparing Genesis 3 (Free) and Daz Studio (Free) with multi thousand dollar base software is apple to apples? Unfortunately Paul and Pauline do compete directly with Michael and Victoria 7 in this market sector and comparison is not only reasonable it's to be expected.

What many people don't know, is that the Genesis 3 rigging is 15 year old technology.

This is a push and I think you may be using some slanted facts to weight this statement. So just to confirm you're stating that all of the tech that drives Genesis 3's rigging is 15 years old? So which was the fully rigged comparable figure to Genesis 3 on every level in 2001?

It gets pushed by many as the best thing since sliced bread. I don't know about you, but I don't want a sandwich made on 15 year old bread....

Again this is just negative bashing for no clear reason. I can almost see the cynical smile on your face while typing that. And Judging by the community response there is demand for Genesis 3 in Poser. But I guess it's up to you and SM to tell them "bad luck it's not going to happen". (And let's not go down the same old DSON copyright track, It's a fact that SM has been offered numerous times by Daz3D to work collaboratively on Poser nativity for Genesis, I guess after Genesis 1 and 2 they really just stopped asking SM as SM made abundantly clear they were not interested in tying poser too Daz3D.)

Yeah, Genesis is a cool idea, and all of us have seen autofit, etc. But it won't work in Poser, get over it already.

Really that's a very strange statement to put to a consumer market. Equivalent to saying "the competition has a faster "X" component in their product. Well we don't so get over it." And expect to be sneered at if you raise the issue again. I feel this kind of elitist attitude given by many in the Posersphere is one of the major issues that is driving many users and potential customers away. "You want "X" well we don't have it, so quit your whining" has never been a good market driver in any consumer market.

Don't get me wrong, Dual Quad rigging has some advantages, but it also has some nasty disadvantages as well. It has so many that they came up with better ways of rigging about, 10 years ago. Genesis (the system) does a good job of getting around that, until you export it....

Again with the lets bash Genesis, for one that thinks that negativity is adversely affecting this community your post is full of it. Why is it that these days the only way to validate Poser is to attack Daz Studio...

Many people bitch about getting what they asked for then wonder why they stop getting much of anything, even from the people that give it away.

Again you're blaming the consumer...

99% of what is wrong with the community, is the community itself.

This type of thinking is aiding to any woes that Poser does suffer from these days. Honestly I don't see how a statement like that can do anything but damage to the community here.

Blaming a customer for the perceived issues of a consumer product, especially publicly, undermines consumer trust and confidence on every level. Whether right or wrong it's ultimately nothing but destructive on a marketing level and for a product's viability. To speak of the destructive qualities of negative contribution in a community or from a consumer market while at the same making a post full of direct attacks and nothing but blame and patronising tones for the community is hardly going to fix anything IMO. But it may just make things worse.

So many times I have been told the major difference between Daz and Poser is at a community level. Yet now it's being said that most Poser users are not community participants at all and have little interaction with the major communities. But trust us they are out there. A little confusing tbh. Seem like there is a bit of an identity crisis in effect.

Razor42 posted at 2:28AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250060

shvrdavid posted at 4:32PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250040

What many people don't know, is that the Genesis 3 rigging is 15 year old technology.

This is a push and I think you may be using some slanted facts to weight this statement. So just to confirm you're stating that all of the tech that drives Genesis 3's rigging is 15 years old? So which was the fully rigged comparable figure to Genesis 3 on every level in 2001?

I'm not sure about 15, I can't find anything that goes back that far, but it is 10-12 years old at least. You can google university articles about DQ skinning that date back to 2005. There are other more modern methods of rigging that are much more advanced.

Here's one example comparing linear, dq and implicit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHySGIqEgyk

It should also be noted that any rigging methods found in the hobbyist market are always going to be trickle-downs from the pro industry. Studios develop their own methods and keep them to themselves until they decide to release them to the greater industry. Anything that's found in poser or ds will always be dwarfed in comparison until physics becomes an actual thing for these platforms.

Well university papers are a little different than a commercial level figure available for free, it's all a little irrevelent as Genesis 3 is more than just DQ rigging anyways.

My point was that it was a cynical cheap shot.

Just out of curiousity is Poser still using Python addons, I wonder when Python was developed? ;)

What makes it into the FBX format is, sort of, a guide to what has become standard. DQ was added to FBX 2012.

regards
prixat

As usual, everything I said was taken the wrong way. But what else is new.

I think the Genesis system is a neat idea, always have, and even said so in my again in my last post. But it is not very portable to other apps. Poser users got to use Genesis 1 and 2 in Poser, which was a freaking miracle that that ever even happened. Show me another program that it integrated into....

All the programs we have at our disposal are tools, they all work differently, and people always complain that this one doesn't do what that one does. You can't scrambled eggs in the toaster previously mentioned, and I don't see anyone telling the toaster companies to fix that. If every program did the same thing, most would go out of business. Autodesk would probably rule the roost.

As far as Dual Quad rigging goes, there are technical papers from the late 90's on it. A lot of them... Due to the type of math it uses versus linear rigging, there was a lot of development around it at the same time. There are even game engines from the same era that did a lot of experimenting with it because it saves GPU cycles, which was sorely needed due to the speed of the gpus at the time. Most peoples computers did not have the hardware that would run it, so it was more of a high end novelty than anything else. But it worked.

How many of you had Number 9 video cards with enough onboard dedicated 3D video memory to even run it? Simple answer is that not too many systems did. Number 9 video cards cost as much as the rest of the system did, and then you had to buy memory to put on it to boot. They used 4 banks of memory, each bank dedicated to specific things. The Beatles quotes when the video card booted were a cool novelty as well, if any of you remember that.

Like I said, it is amusing...

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;)

Toaster that makes Eggs

shvrdavid posted at 8:20AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250095

As usual, everything I said was taken the wrong way. But what else is new.

I think the Genesis system is a neat idea, always have, and even said so in my again in my last post. But it is not very portable to other apps. Poser users got to use Genesis 1 and 2 in Poser, which was a freaking miracle that that ever even happened. Show me another program that it integrated into....

Don't think it needs to be integrated now that it has the industry standard rigging:

http://toyen-art.deviantart.com/journal/Tutorial-Using-Daz-figures-for-animation-in-Maya-585078140

Facial rig even works in Maya. There's a thread on Daz with people working with animating with genesis 3 using the maya IK. And that's really the point of switching over to DQ. Why try to jam rigging into a lone program when you can now get it into multiple applications?

wolf359 posted at 9:56AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4249916

"Because , just like this thread, Any attempt at a conversation about poser in the POSER forum becomes a force conversation about DAZ.”

I disagree, Any thread about poser that is not directly related to Figures usually run its course with no Drama.

But it seems few users here are very excited by how mesh lights work in “superfly” or how to make a cool bronze shader for “superfly” Nor do forum members seem particularly compelled to discuss the utilitarian advantages of the new CAD style Scene measurement tools in P11

Poser is about posing and rendering mostly female figures and the prevailing Opinion is that the native poser ones are less than stellar. And the DAZ ones are simply ..BETTER. To say nothing of cynical afterthought Male offerings like “Paul”..sorry, but thats is the reality of it

Get emotional, and combative and attack & troll The DAZ merchs all you want.. No matter.

Until SMITH MICRO alters this paradigm in some significant way with their own POSER NATIVE female figure and content technology, built to some top down UNIFORM STANDARD that leverages the LATEST VERSION of poser, the forum threads will inevitably follow this same tedious course.

Ahh yes, Poser is about posing and rendering! At least, that what I hear.

There's hardly anything else available that isn't for the DAZ Gen 4 through Genesis figures. As I've posted before, I've been noticing the shift away from V4 to Genesis. It seems SM either needs to step up their efforts on female and male figures, or relent to DAZ being the king for hobbyist/artist figures and work toward native support for Genesis figures in Poser. At least from threads I have read, DAZ has offered to help SM get Genesis into Poser, but SM didn't want to.

**"Don't think it needs to be integrated now that it has the industry standard rigging:

http://toyen-art.deviantart.com/journal/Tutorial-Using-Daz-figures-for-animation-in-Maya-585078140

Facial rig even works in Maya. There's a thread on Daz with people working with animating with genesis 3 using the maya IK. And that's really the point of switching over to DQ. Why try to jam rigging into a lone program when you can now get it into multiple applications?"**

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I think it interesting to note that most people outside of the DAZ /poser sphere only seem to have an interest in transferring these figures into thier respective application for the purposes of animation. ..not internet gallery stills& portrait renders.

In this respect: there are many ways to light Europe.

I simply cannot grasp why many seem to think that the only acceptable solution for a Genesis figure in another program is some magical transferrence of RIGGING over to another app with the Exact funtionality of its native program.

..There are many ways to light Europe.

Take MDD, ( Thanks DAZ!!)

I have a seven year old version of Maxon Cinema4D(R11.5)

yet I am taking the Genesis Models(1,2& 3) and animating them using a variety of methods,(Iclone,Animate2,&Graphmate,puppeteer,mimic, MCJ copy animation etc.) all in DAZ studio on a windows 7 PC . Sittin over in my vestgial C4D, on the Mac, is a perfectly exported/textured copy of the same geneis actor awaiting its point level motion data to be export from DAZ studio after its been checked( in DS) by a quick open GL previsualization render

Using a seven year old obj handler called "Riptide pro" I can apply that single compiled MDD motion data file respectively to G1,2 or G3 in C4D with any frame offset may choose. I can switch between various MDD files for each exported figure on the fly.

I dont need genesis rigging Magically transferred to C4D. all of this Nerdy Mcnerd tech debate about how new or old the G3 riggin tech is means NOTHING to those who are willing explore multiple solution to Create our animation renders.

I dont have this irrational fear of going back into DAZ studio after I have gotten my actor into my rendering application.

I can pop over to DAZ studio and move a slider to make the figure more muscular or fatter/slimmer or re-animate him entirely and simply export the new MDD file and overwrite the old one the server and watch the actor update live before my eyes with the new MDD Data.

I find it hard to beleive that users of other pro level apps are completly dependant on complete rigging tranfers for animated actors that is why Aalembic/MDD/PLA was developed in the first place.

There are many ways to light Europe.

My website

YouTube Channel

Prior to the release of P11, SM did in fact reach out to Daz about Genesis implementation, but Daz was not interested (I could look for the exact quote from Nerd, but I can't be arsed)

Sure you could say that is 'too little too late', but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again, so that is the end of that discussion. Time to move on.

" but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again"

Just my personal observation but people make this proclaimation with this tone/implication that Daz somehow had ,at the very least, a Moral obligation to continue making poser compatible content....well they did not have any such obligation...ever.

And no.. moving on to improved figure tech is NOT a personal conpiracy to destroy poser ..its just business interests like any other commercial entity.

My website

YouTube Channel

DreaminGirl posted at 8:49AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250119

Prior to the release of P11, SM did in fact reach out to Daz about Genesis implementation, but Daz was not interested (I could look for the exact quote from Nerd, but I can't be arsed)

Sure you could say that is 'too little too late', but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again, so that is the end of that discussion. Time to move on.

Funny, I recall him saying it was up to Daz 3D to push Dual Quaternion Skinning through Poser's slow and incomplete Python API.

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?102178-How-do-I-load-Victoria-7-in-Poser-11&p=929267&viewfull=1#post929267

DreaminGirl posted at 10:47AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250119

Prior to the release of P11, SM did in fact reach out to Daz about Genesis implementation, but Daz was not interested (I could look for the exact quote from Nerd, but I can't be arsed)

Sure you could say that is 'too little too late', but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again, so that is the end of that discussion. Time to move on.

I think what most Poser users fear is that people ARE moving on...to DS. What's needed is an intelligent discussion to avoid that happening, but so far I haven't seen one. SM doesn't wanna discuss it or find someone that knows what they're doing in the figure making and rigging departments and the rest of the Poser community that has no interest in DS is just telling the rest of us to "just get over it already". So where does that leave Poser users that want something more but aren't getting it from Poser? You do the math...

I for one, would like to have Poser around for a long time. There's a lot about it to love. But all that love is fading fast in the face of the competition. And unfortunately, DS is the competition. Most companies worth their salt try and BEAT the competition, not placate their customers with tiny tidbits of mediocre upgrades and expect them to remain loyal. I said months ago that while I loved Poser, loyalty means NOTHING when I am paying for software. If anything, the makers of Poser owe US, not the other way around, as we give them our hard earned money. I was dumped on for it in this forum by not everyone, but most...however, this doesn't change how I feel in the least.

Laurie

DreaminGirl posted at 11:07AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250119

Prior to the release of P11, SM did in fact reach out to Daz about Genesis implementation, but Daz was not interested (I could look for the exact quote from Nerd, but I can't be arsed)

Sure you could say that is 'too little too late', but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again, so that is the end of that discussion. Time to move on.

Here's one instance, but recall a more detailed discussion somewhere... (EDIT:crosspost with Bruce)

_ "We don't control the DSON plugin, that's DAZ's property. All they have to do is update the plugin to support Genesis 3/Vicky 7. I'd love for all of you to have the power in poser to work with whatever figure you want to use." [Why don't Italics work anymore??] _

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?102178-How-do-I-load-Victoria-7-in-Poser-11&p=929267&viewfull=1#post929267

Considering the latest version of the DSON Importer doesn't work properly on Genesis 2, and hasn't been updated in nearly a year, (I use the previous Beta) I'm not expecting anything to happen soon.

It's simply a business decision on both companies' parts. Use the tool that does the job for you.

And Smile!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
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bhoins posted at 5:12PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250125

DreaminGirl posted at 8:49AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250119

Prior to the release of P11, SM did in fact reach out to Daz about Genesis implementation, but Daz was not interested (I could look for the exact quote from Nerd, but I can't be arsed)

Sure you could say that is 'too little too late', but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again, so that is the end of that discussion. Time to move on.

Funny, I recall him saying it was up to Daz 3D to push Dual Quaternion Skinning through Poser's slow and incomplete Python API.

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?102178-How-do-I-load-Victoria-7-in-Poser-11&p=929267&viewfull=1#post929267

That's not the quote I was referring to.

@Laurie I agree, I would like to see Poser live on for a long time, but I don't think Genesis is the answer. Besides, in a year or so, G3 will be replaced by something new anyway. 'Keeping up with the Joneses' seems to be what is expected, but not everyone agrees to that.

DreaminGirl posted at 11:23AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250129

bhoins posted at 5:12PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250125

DreaminGirl posted at 8:49AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250119

Prior to the release of P11, SM did in fact reach out to Daz about Genesis implementation, but Daz was not interested (I could look for the exact quote from Nerd, but I can't be arsed)

Sure you could say that is 'too little too late', but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again, so that is the end of that discussion. Time to move on.

Funny, I recall him saying it was up to Daz 3D to push Dual Quaternion Skinning through Poser's slow and incomplete Python API.

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?102178-How-do-I-load-Victoria-7-in-Poser-11&p=929267&viewfull=1#post929267

That's not the quote I was referring to.

@Laurie I agree, I would like to see Poser live on for a long time, but I don't think Genesis is the answer. Besides, in a year or so, G3 will be replaced by something new anyway. 'Keeping up with the Joneses' seems to be what is expected, but not everyone agrees to that.

I think it's called innovating. That's really what's happening. You innovate or you die. Many companies in the past have bit the dust thinking they don't have to do anything to keep customers' business. Those companies aren't the first and definitely won't be the last.

WandW posted at 11:25AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250128

DreaminGirl posted at 11:07AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250119

Prior to the release of P11, SM did in fact reach out to Daz about Genesis implementation, but Daz was not interested (I could look for the exact quote from Nerd, but I can't be arsed)

Sure you could say that is 'too little too late', but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again, so that is the end of that discussion. Time to move on.

Here's one instance, but recall a more detailed discussion somewhere... (EDIT:crosspost with Bruce)

_ "We don't control the DSON plugin, that's DAZ's property. All they have to do is update the plugin to support Genesis 3/Vicky 7. I'd love for all of you to have the power in poser to work with whatever figure you want to use." [Why don't Italics work anymore??] _

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?102178-How-do-I-load-Victoria-7-in-Poser-11&p=929267&viewfull=1#post929267

Considering the latest version of the DSON Importer doesn't work properly on Genesis 2, and hasn't been updated in nearly a year, (I use the previous Beta) I'm not expecting anything to happen soon.

One again, SM sidestepped the issue bringing in a false argument about the plugin when the full DSON spec is posted for them online to import like reading any other file format. Let not trot this false argument out because there's a major different between the "DSON Importer for Poser" and the "DSON specification". It's already been noted that DAZ has taken the importer as far as it can go because of the performance issues with python, that's why DAZ mentioned reading the specification natively, not trying to use some tool to hack the importer which would be a DCMA violation. It seems really uninformed that after all these years, SM doesn't know the difference. But I think we're getting away from the subject revolving everything around DAZ. The discussion really should be about what Poser should be doing to address customers' concerns.

I never said it had to be G3...in fact, while I certainly wouldn't mind G3 working Poser, I'd prefer Poser have their own set of awesome figures. That would give users who use both programs even MORE choices. LOL.

It used to be said back in the early days of personal computers that the reason Apple didn't have a larger market share today is because Steve Jobs thought it was all about the hardware and Bill Gates understood it was all about the software. Judging by the popularity of non-PC Apple products today, they were BOTH right. It doesn't matter how great a piece of software like Poser is if there's nothing good to put IN the software. And much as it pains me to say it, Daz does a much better job at the stuff to put IN the software (if we compare DS and Poser to computer hardware). For a company that charges 250 to 500 dollars a pop for their full versions, it just seems we should be getting more bang for our buck. And since the developers of Poser don't seem to be quite pulling it off, and since the community wants to keep the software alive, maybe rather than bickering about who's penis is larger all the time, we should instead be brainstorming what we can do about the situation. The community used to pull together before with difficult problems. It just seems the last 6 years or so we've all forgotten how to do that.

Are there Kickstarter possibilities? A consortium of the community's best modelers, texture artists and riggers? Let's face it - a LOT of us have a vested interest in Poser. Perhaps we should work together toward something than to constantly work against each other. We always expect other people to fix it while we all sit on our collective asses and just bitch about it not happening (and SM hasn't exactly done anything to help in that area). Just an idea ;). I'd certainly be willing to throw money at people to make awesome addons to Poser like Snarly's scripts, Virtual World Dynamics fantastic development with conforming hair and clothing or even a third party developer for a dynamic hair or clothing plugin that's better than what's already IN Poser. I'd certainly throw some money at some great figures that make the most of Poser's abilities.

Laurie

Here, I'll start off with an idea or three:

1. Get rid of the old Poser interface. It was fine in its day, but today just looks VERY dated and kludgy.

2. Do something dangerous like getting rid of backward compatibilty so that it doesn't sacrifice moving forward. Daz made this bold move and it worked out for them. Sure there was a lot of grumbling at first, but people came to like the advances better than the old figures. Truth is, Poser HAS to keep up with the Joneses or it will die, period. No risk, no reward. It can't possibly be worse than what they're already (not) doing.

3. REVAMP THE MATERIAL ROOM and give it proper documentation. Poser is primarily a hobbyist program. I wish the developers kept that in mind. Do like the makers of Vue and manage to create a very versitile basic material editor while keeping the harder stuff in the background, yet still accessible for those that know what they're doing.

Poser has had a better plugin scheme for what? two or three versions now? And yet few have really taken advantage of it. Maybe we should encourage that ;). If we can't get something from SM that we want maybe we can get it another way, yeah? I'm certain there's people in the community with all KINDS of ideas and skills that are so put off by the infighting that they're too disgusted to contribute. I can understand the feeling, believe me.

Laurie

I agree. Except for the UI, I happen to like it a lot :3

LOL I kinda like it too, but to be honest, I could be confusing "like" with "I'm confortable cause I've been looking at it for two decades" ;). It's terribly disorganized. We still can't adjust multiple material zones at once that all use the same shader (Vue had that back in version 2 when I started using it - long before I ever heard of Poser). There are parts of the interface that just don't work with todays users. I need to make a list. LOL

Laurie

I don't mind a new UI if they give you options to keep the old one (unless it keeps back innovation). Options are always good, regardless. Personally, I find Posers UI to be easy to reorganize to my liking, granted I'm not very well versed in the material room so I can't comment on that..

Male_M3dia posted at 12:12PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250131

One again, SM sidestepped the issue bringing in a false argument about the plugin when the full DSON spec is posted for them online to import like reading any other file format. Let not trot this false argument out because there's a major different between the "DSON Importer for Poser" and the "DSON specification". It's already been noted that DAZ has taken the importer as far as it can go because of the performance issues with python, that's why DAZ mentioned reading the specification natively, not trying to use some tool to hack the importer which would be a DCMA violation.

It's sort of moot, because DAZ is going to DRM based product distribution in Studio 4.9. Some sort of a plugin from DAZ would be needed to use any of their new content anyway, unless I'm misunderstanding something....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

@DreaminGirl Maybe they should do like that "other" software does and offer multiple UI setups so that ppl can pick and choose with the option to customize.

The trick is not to completely match what DS has, but to match what DS has and do it one BETTER. Isn't that the nature of competition? I thought it was...lol. Along with "give the people what they want". We know what we want so why don't we step up to the plate and make it?

It might go a long way if SM would give away the plugin API. I don't know how it's handled right now (and maybe they do give it away), but certainly not many other than Preta-3D are using it. Time to change that maybe. I'd like to see Garibaldi hair or LAMH in Poser, wouldn't you? Or something similar? Or maybe even better? ;) Maybe SM needs a wake-up call. Maybe we do...

Laurie

Laurie. I don't understand why SmithMicro would need to dump spherical falloff from method options in order to move up in the world. Who needs a weight mapped lever, door, or robot? Just because a tool is new (in Poser relative terms, linear skinning is old news in just about every other app) doesn't mean its the right tool. If anyone can tell me an error in my thinking about this, please correct me. Poser does need to step up its addition of industry standard concepts if they're going to be charging that kind of loot for the pro version though. I guess pro means Pro Hobbyist?

---

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EldritchCellar posted at 12:25PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250145

Laurie. I don't understand why SmithMicro would need to dump spherical falloff in order to move up in the world. Who needs a weight mapped lever, door, or robot? Just because a tool is new (in Poser relative terms, linear skinning is old news in just about every other app.) doesn't mean its the right tool. If anyone can tell me an error in my thinking about this, please correct me. Poser does need to step up its addition of industry standard concepts if they're going to be charging that kind of loot for the pro version though. I guess pro means Pro Hobbyist?

In software terms, Poser doesn't cost that much. However, I still need to feel like I got my money's worth ;).

I never meant we had to dump anything...but anything that keeps innovation from moving forward. If it's backward compatibility, then yeah...dump it. If it's not, keep it. I dunno about you tho, but I haven't used a generation three figure since V4 and M4 came out. I don't think I'm alone really. I no longer use my old tube television because I have a nice newer flatscreen. And yeah, I've bought more than one television in my life...no matter how much they cost. Same with cars. People always want newer, shinier, better. Human nature. Poser users are no different, no matter how often some in the community tell us we aren't ;). They'll buy newer figures and clothes too if it's an improvement over the old.

Laurie

... As far as Daz dumping backward compatibility? I don't know, they apparently started to move in that direction , geometry switching didn't work anymore in a few versions back of DS, but in current version and the new beta it works again. So... who knows?

---

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I know how much software costs Laurie, lol. ;) 3DCoat and Substance Painter and Blender are more professional 3D apps. Cheaper. Poser is far from a complete solution.

---

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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

LaurieA posted at 6:46PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250147

EldritchCellar posted at 12:25PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250145

Laurie. I don't understand why SmithMicro would need to dump spherical falloff in order to move up in the world. Who needs a weight mapped lever, door, or robot? Just because a tool is new (in Poser relative terms, linear skinning is old news in just about every other app.) doesn't mean its the right tool. If anyone can tell me an error in my thinking about this, please correct me. Poser does need to step up its addition of industry standard concepts if they're going to be charging that kind of loot for the pro version though. I guess pro means Pro Hobbyist?

In software terms, Poser doesn't cost that much. However, I still need to feel like I got my money's worth ;).

I never meant we had to dump anything...but anything that keeps innovation from moving forward. If it's backward compatibility, then yeah...dump it. If it's not, keep it. I dunno about you tho, but I haven't used a generation three figure since V4 and M4 came out. I don't think I'm alone really. I no longer use my old tube television because I have a nice newer flatscreen. And yeah, I've bought more than one television in my life...no matter how much they cost. Same with cars. People always want newer, shinier, better. Human nature. Poser users are no different, no matter how often some in the community tell us we aren't ;). They'll buy newer figures and clothes too if it's an improvement over the old.

Laurie

I doth protest! I don't have a TV, I don't have a car, I don't have a smartphone, in fact my mobile is 8 years old or so and works far better than my hubbys smartphone that keeps breaking and needing recharge lol. New isn't always better. Is Britney Spears better than David Bowie? Nuh-uh :)

Personally, I'm still using all the figures at my disposal, including gen 3 and 4 figures, Dawn, Anastasia and Antonia (I just wish there were more male figures..) I tried genesis, but didn't really see the benefit compared to what I already had, especially since they were cumbersome to use in Poser. Would I have used Genesis more had they been Poser natives? I really don't know, but something about the 'look' of the genesis figures just didn't 'click' with me, especially so for G3. So for me, it is not so much about the age and technological level of a figure, but more about the look. That said, I am really looking forward to PE!

I don't necessarily agree with everything Daz does and DS doesn't satisfy my every need. Every company has something to learn from it's customers. Maybe they put it back because they didn't realize ppl were still using it? LOL.

Like I said before, there is a lot to love about Poser. But the company needs to do things differently than they have been because it's apparently not working well for them. I had decided before not to buy the newest version of Poser. Now I'm rethinking it, but I've been wavering back and forth for months now. And I've bought every version since Poser 4 (I did skip Poser 5 tho because of the buggyness).

In these kinds of conversations, it's very hard not to mention "Daz does this or did that" because DS is Poser's direct competition. SM needs to start acting like it. They also need to understand that it also means they need to try HARDER because Poser costs money and DS is free. The big hurdle they need to overcome (maybe the biggest). The Poser users that visit this forum are obviously not happy. And I tend to think it's not Daz's fault as much as it is SMs. After all, Daz owes us and them nothing, just like SM doesn't owe Daz anything. But SM DOES owe us something in exchange for the money we give them.

Laurie

EldritchCellar posted at 12:48PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250152

I know how much software costs Laurie, lol. ;) 3DCoat and Substance Painter and Blender are more professional 3D apps. Cheaper. Poser is far from a complete solution.

Hahaha...that's true. Maybe you should shoot SM an email and ask for some of your money back. Good luck to ya there :P

Anyway, I'm kinda done for now. I suggest we find solutions rather than reasons to bitch, whine and complain. Hopefully SM is watching and taking some of it to heart...

Edit: one more BIG thing...for those that want to argue that any new figure that comes out will fail just because Daz figures exist are completely wrong. Until now, there's been no real competition and of those that could have been, the release was done completely wrong. You can't tell me that if a completely Poser set of figures came out and they looked as good as Mike and Vicky 7 and bent just as well that people wouldn't be falling over themselves to have them. I know better. But there has to be content for those figures at release, and a good bit of it if one wants adoption.

DreaminGirl posted at 10:48AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250129

bhoins posted at 5:12PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250125

DreaminGirl posted at 8:49AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250119

Prior to the release of P11, SM did in fact reach out to Daz about Genesis implementation, but Daz was not interested (I could look for the exact quote from Nerd, but I can't be arsed)

Sure you could say that is 'too little too late', but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again, so that is the end of that discussion. Time to move on.

Funny, I recall him saying it was up to Daz 3D to push Dual Quaternion Skinning through Poser's slow and incomplete Python API.

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?102178-How-do-I-load-Victoria-7-in-Poser-11&p=929267&viewfull=1#post929267

That's not the quote I was referring to.

@Laurie I agree, I would like to see Poser live on for a long time, but I don't think Genesis is the answer. Besides, in a year or so, G3 will be replaced by something new anyway. 'Keeping up with the Joneses' seems to be what is expected, but not everyone agrees to that.

Of course it isn't the one you were referring to. It is the one where Nerd pushed the entire thing off on Daz 3d. Either Poser wants to add support or it doesn't, it can't be both ways.

Fact is new, shinier, better doesn't come to Poser until 10 years after the fact. And yet users of the new shiney things in Poser come off like they're on some kind of elite cutting edge "blah, blah, yes well blah, blah". Your new toys are old news and you paid too much for them, climb down from the pedestal.

---

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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

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bhoins posted at 7:00PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250160

DreaminGirl posted at 10:48AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250129

bhoins posted at 5:12PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250125

DreaminGirl posted at 8:49AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250119

Prior to the release of P11, SM did in fact reach out to Daz about Genesis implementation, but Daz was not interested (I could look for the exact quote from Nerd, but I can't be arsed)

Sure you could say that is 'too little too late', but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again, so that is the end of that discussion. Time to move on.

Funny, I recall him saying it was up to Daz 3D to push Dual Quaternion Skinning through Poser's slow and incomplete Python API.

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?102178-How-do-I-load-Victoria-7-in-Poser-11&p=929267&viewfull=1#post929267

That's not the quote I was referring to.

@Laurie I agree, I would like to see Poser live on for a long time, but I don't think Genesis is the answer. Besides, in a year or so, G3 will be replaced by something new anyway. 'Keeping up with the Joneses' seems to be what is expected, but not everyone agrees to that.

Of course it isn't the one you were referring to. It is the one where Nerd pushed the entire thing off on Daz 3d. Either Poser wants to add support or it doesn't, it can't be both ways.

Um, not sure where you're headed with this.. If SM wants to add support for Daz content, they kinda need Daz on board. Daz has said they are not interested, so there isn't much SM can do now..

As far as "out with the old in with the new"... I'll tell you what, make a bikini for Dawn. Now make one for Aiko 3. Upload them both to shareCG. See which one gets more downloads. ;) My point is... you Poser Elite Forum Experts mostly have your heads up your asses in terms of what users seem to really want. Lol. No offense of course. Just the way it is.

---

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WandW posted at 1:14PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250142

Male_M3dia posted at 12:12PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250131

One again, SM sidestepped the issue bringing in a false argument about the plugin when the full DSON spec is posted for them online to import like reading any other file format. Let not trot this false argument out because there's a major different between the "DSON Importer for Poser" and the "DSON specification". It's already been noted that DAZ has taken the importer as far as it can go because of the performance issues with python, that's why DAZ mentioned reading the specification natively, not trying to use some tool to hack the importer which would be a DCMA violation.

It's sort of moot, because DAZ is going to DRM based product distribution in Studio 4.9. Some sort of a plugin from DAZ would be needed to use any of their new content anyway, unless I'm misunderstanding something....

Only thing that would be encrypted would fall under DAZ Connect, but older content or content provided by other stores or users are not affected. I believe we went over this already in the DAZ forum, so not sure you're trying to spread misinformation in light of that.

Just want to say that I don't want to come off as insulting to Laurie or whoever but I think in terms of art (poser is regular folks aimed art making software) it's important to never forget things like nostalgia, subcultural interests, and the underdog. Perfectly bending photorealistic figures are one thing... If such a figure can't be something more besides it's a loser. Probably why Genesis gets so much toon mileage and so many Poser Toon standalones have been ported to it (3d universe, Smay, etc).

---

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Male_M3dia posted at 1:36PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250170

WandW posted at 1:14PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250142

Male_M3dia posted at 12:12PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250131

One again, SM sidestepped the issue bringing in a false argument about the plugin when the full DSON spec is posted for them online to import like reading any other file format. Let not trot this false argument out because there's a major different between the "DSON Importer for Poser" and the "DSON specification". It's already been noted that DAZ has taken the importer as far as it can go because of the performance issues with python, that's why DAZ mentioned reading the specification natively, not trying to use some tool to hack the importer which would be a DCMA violation.

It's sort of moot, because DAZ is going to DRM based product distribution in Studio 4.9. Some sort of a plugin from DAZ would be needed to use any of their new content anyway, unless I'm misunderstanding something....

Only thing that would be encrypted would fall under DAZ Connect, but older content or content provided by other stores or users are not affected. I believe we went over this already in the DAZ forum, so not sure you're trying to spread misinformation in light of that.

I specifically said "their new content"...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

EldritchCellar posted at 1:39PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250172

Probably why Genesis gets so much toon mileage and so many Poser Toon standalones have been ported to it (3d universe, Smay, etc).

That and you can dress them easily...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

WandW posted at 1:40PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250173

Male_M3dia posted at 1:36PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250170

WandW posted at 1:14PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250142

Male_M3dia posted at 12:12PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250131

One again, SM sidestepped the issue bringing in a false argument about the plugin when the full DSON spec is posted for them online to import like reading any other file format. Let not trot this false argument out because there's a major different between the "DSON Importer for Poser" and the "DSON specification". It's already been noted that DAZ has taken the importer as far as it can go because of the performance issues with python, that's why DAZ mentioned reading the specification natively, not trying to use some tool to hack the importer which would be a DCMA violation.

It's sort of moot, because DAZ is going to DRM based product distribution in Studio 4.9. Some sort of a plugin from DAZ would be needed to use any of their new content anyway, unless I'm misunderstanding something....

Only thing that would be encrypted would fall under DAZ Connect, but older content or content provided by other stores or users are not affected. I believe we went over this already in the DAZ forum, so not sure you're trying to spread misinformation in light of that.

I specifically said "their new content"...

But not all, as I pointed out in their thread, just the DAZ Connect.

DreaminGirl posted at 11:44AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250165

bhoins posted at 7:00PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250160

DreaminGirl posted at 10:48AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250129

bhoins posted at 5:12PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250125

DreaminGirl posted at 8:49AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250119

Prior to the release of P11, SM did in fact reach out to Daz about Genesis implementation, but Daz was not interested (I could look for the exact quote from Nerd, but I can't be arsed)

Sure you could say that is 'too little too late', but it says to me that Daz has no interest in ever supporting Poser again, so that is the end of that discussion. Time to move on.

Funny, I recall him saying it was up to Daz 3D to push Dual Quaternion Skinning through Poser's slow and incomplete Python API.

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?102178-How-do-I-load-Victoria-7-in-Poser-11&p=929267&viewfull=1#post929267

That's not the quote I was referring to.

@Laurie I agree, I would like to see Poser live on for a long time, but I don't think Genesis is the answer. Besides, in a year or so, G3 will be replaced by something new anyway. 'Keeping up with the Joneses' seems to be what is expected, but not everyone agrees to that.

Of course it isn't the one you were referring to. It is the one where Nerd pushed the entire thing off on Daz 3d. Either Poser wants to add support or it doesn't, it can't be both ways.

Um, not sure where you're headed with this.. If SM wants to add support for Daz content, they kinda need Daz on board. Daz has said they are not interested, so there isn't much SM can do now..

The format, as has been stated repeatedly, is open. If SM wants to build a native importer they can, the only thing stopping SM, is SM. And Your comment about reaching out to Daz is contradicted by Nerd himself.

Male_M3dia posted at 1:44PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250176

WandW posted at 1:40PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250173

Male_M3dia posted at 1:36PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250170

WandW posted at 1:14PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250142

It's sort of moot, because DAZ is going to DRM based product distribution in Studio 4.9. Some sort of a plugin from DAZ would be needed to use any of their new content anyway, unless I'm misunderstanding something....

Only thing that would be encrypted would fall under DAZ Connect, but older content or content provided by other stores or users are not affected. I believe we went over this already in the DAZ forum, so not sure you're trying to spread misinformation in light of that.

I specifically said "their new content"...

But not all, as I pointed out in their thread, just the DAZ Connect.

Yeeeeeah, but at some point soon all new DAZ content will be delivered by DAZ Connect, or am I mistaken? If so, then talking about using DAZ content natively in Poser is relevant. If not we're sort of quibbling about the meaning of the word 'is'...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
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bhoins posted at 7:56PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250178

The format, as has been stated repeatedly, is open. If SM wants to build a native importer they can, the only thing stopping SM, is SM. And Your comment about reaching out to Daz is contradicted by Nerd himself.

DAZ Studio format being available to other products without royalties is a filthy lie that has been exposed many times in the past. That DAZ hench... sorry, PAs continue to spread it is a dead giveaway that it is a trap laid down on purpose (like the non enforcement of the GIF patent until near the end of its expiration was).

WandW posted at 2:02PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250180

Male_M3dia posted at 1:44PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250176

WandW posted at 1:40PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250173

Male_M3dia posted at 1:36PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250170

WandW posted at 1:14PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250142

It's sort of moot, because DAZ is going to DRM based product distribution in Studio 4.9. Some sort of a plugin from DAZ would be needed to use any of their new content anyway, unless I'm misunderstanding something....

Only thing that would be encrypted would fall under DAZ Connect, but older content or content provided by other stores or users are not affected. I believe we went over this already in the DAZ forum, so not sure you're trying to spread misinformation in light of that.

I specifically said "their new content"...

But not all, as I pointed out in their thread, just the DAZ Connect.

Yeeeeeah, but at some point soon all new DAZ content will be delivered by DAZ Connect, or am I mistaken? If so, then talking about using DAZ content natively in Poser is relevant. If not we're sort of quibbling about the meaning of the word 'is'...

Well if DAZ was supporting officially Poser, I'm sure they would account for it. But I'm thinking the importer is pretty much dead product so that wouldn't matter. But they've stated that no other features such as fbx, cr2 and collada wouldn't be disabled so experiments such as the one maya wouldn't be affected. And if Poser supported Dual Quaterion, that's how the support would have been moving forward anyway in lieu of not importing the DSON spec natively. And if they are selling to other markets, then DAZ Connect wouldn't be the only method especially with other markets selling genesis items. So we're kind a back to the whole "lets not speculate too much on DAZ when Poser is really the subject" thing ;)

chaecuna posted at 2:10PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250183

bhoins posted at 7:56PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250178

The format, as has been stated repeatedly, is open. If SM wants to build a native importer they can, the only thing stopping SM, is SM. And Your comment about reaching out to Daz is contradicted by Nerd himself.

DAZ Studio format being available to other products without royalties is a filthy lie that has been exposed many times in the past. That DAZ hench... sorry, PAs continue to spread it is a dead giveaway that it is a trap laid down on purpose (like the non enforcement of the GIF patent until near the end of its expiration was).

Proof? Links? I think the only lie is really what you just typed.

Yanno, I wonder why I waste my breath sometimes :).

Oh well...

Laurie

bhoins posted at 8:11PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250178

The format, as has been stated repeatedly, is open. If SM wants to build a native importer they can, the only thing stopping SM, is SM. And Your comment about reaching out to Daz is contradicted by Nerd himself.

Seriously? All Nerd said here is that SM cannot 'fix' Daz's DSON plugin, as it is not their property. Only Daz can do that. It's like saying SM should fix issues with V4, but they obviously can't because it's not their property.

DreaminGirl posted at 2:23PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250188

bhoins posted at 8:11PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250178

The format, as has been stated repeatedly, is open. If SM wants to build a native importer they can, the only thing stopping SM, is SM. And Your comment about reaching out to Daz is contradicted by Nerd himself.

Seriously? All Nerd said here is that SM cannot 'fix' Daz's DSON plugin, as it is not their property. Only Daz can do that. It's like saying SM should fix issues with V4, but they obviously can't because it's not their property.

Again, why would Nerd feel the need to fix the DSON plugin when the DSON Specification is what needs to be read? Again there's a difference that a lot of people seem to not get. There is a fbx specification, obj specification a collada specification and there is a DSON specification... not fbx, obj and collada plugins that need to be fixed in order to get those files to be read.

Male_M3dia posted at 2:26PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250184

...So we're kind a back to the whole "lets not speculate too much on DAZ when Poser is really the subject" thing ;)

Yeeeah, that's pretty much what I said...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

WandW posted at 2:29PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250192

Male_M3dia posted at 2:26PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250184

...So we're kind a back to the whole "lets not speculate too much on DAZ when Poser is really the subject" thing ;)

Yeeeah, that's pretty much what I said...

So, why did you bring it up if that was your conclusion?

Male_M3dia posted at 2:32PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250193

WandW posted at 2:29PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250192

Male_M3dia posted at 2:26PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250184

...So we're kind a back to the whole "lets not speculate too much on DAZ when Poser is really the subject" thing ;)

Yeeeah, that's pretty much what I said...

So, why did you bring it up if that was your conclusion?

Hmmm... Perhaps there's a language barrier; My point was that because of DAZ Connect's DRM, and older content being compatible with the DSON Importer, DAZ formats aren't very relevant to Poser from here on out...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

chaecuna posted at 12:46PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250183

bhoins posted at 7:56PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250178

The format, as has been stated repeatedly, is open. If SM wants to build a native importer they can, the only thing stopping SM, is SM. And Your comment about reaching out to Daz is contradicted by Nerd himself.

DAZ Studio format being available to other products without royalties is a filthy lie that has been exposed many times in the past. That DAZ hench... sorry, PAs continue to spread it is a dead giveaway that it is a trap laid down on purpose (like the non enforcement of the GIF patent until near the end of its expiration was).

Please cite your source. The actual statement from official Daz Sources, on numerous occasions, says otherwise.

I think that noone should really expect that SM will really try to get DAZ tech into Poser. The DSON plugin isn't really nice to work with, the Genesis 3 rigging isn't included, for short, it seems that SM is fine with DAZ content not working in Poser. Maybe the sales for the application itself did not drop quite as much as the sales for Poser compatible figures.

I guess the people who are really keen to use the newest DAZ tech have already switched over, or they use both apps. The actual version of Poser does not look to me as i Poser would die anytime soon.

@Male_M3dia: I really don't know why you are spending so much time here. You are happy with the DAZ tech, it seems that the sales for Genesis stuff are good. Smith Micro did not include Genesis 3 compatibility in Poser 11, so I guess that at least for the next two years there won't be a reunification. I mean, this is a Poser forum, what do you want archive here? Let us see the TRUTH?

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

Male_M3dia posted at 2:55PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250131

One again, SM sidestepped the issue bringing in a false argument about the plugin when the full DSON spec is posted for them online to import like reading any other file format. Let not trot this false argument out because there's a major different between the "DSON Importer for Poser" and the "DSON specification". It's already been noted that DAZ has taken the importer as far as it can go because of the performance issues with python, that's why DAZ mentioned reading the specification natively, not trying to use some tool to hack the importer which would be a DCMA violation. It seems really uninformed that after all these years, SM doesn't know the difference. But I think we're getting away from the subject revolving everything around DAZ. The discussion really should be about what Poser should be doing to address customers' concerns.

Well apparently Poserdome will not accept any other character other then DAZ characters. Even thou HiveWire3D was part of DAZ. So all I can think of someone ,anyone needs to get DAZ characters back in to Poser.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

DreaminGirl posted at 12:51PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250188

bhoins posted at 8:11PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250178

The format, as has been stated repeatedly, is open. If SM wants to build a native importer they can, the only thing stopping SM, is SM. And Your comment about reaching out to Daz is contradicted by Nerd himself.

Seriously? All Nerd said here is that SM cannot 'fix' Daz's DSON plugin, as it is not their property. Only Daz can do that. It's like saying SM should fix issues with V4, but they obviously can't because it's not their property.

What is there to fix, well other than the bug that WandW mentioned?

He was specifically responding to Genesis 3 Support in Poser, which isn't within the scope of the plug-in. To do that would require a plug-in, using an incomplete and slow Python API, to take over skinning from Poser itself.

bhoins posted at 9:07PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250204

DreaminGirl posted at 12:51PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250188

bhoins posted at 8:11PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250178

The format, as has been stated repeatedly, is open. If SM wants to build a native importer they can, the only thing stopping SM, is SM. And Your comment about reaching out to Daz is contradicted by Nerd himself.

Seriously? All Nerd said here is that SM cannot 'fix' Daz's DSON plugin, as it is not their property. Only Daz can do that. It's like saying SM should fix issues with V4, but they obviously can't because it's not their property.

What is there to fix, well other than the bug that WandW mentioned?

He was specifically responding to Genesis 3 Support in Poser, which isn't within the scope of the plug-in. To do that would require a plug-in, using an incomplete and slow Python API, to take over skinning from Poser itself.

No, he was specifically addressing the DSON plugin. But whatever, read into it whatever you want.

Bottom line, both companies has decided to go their own ways, and we just have to accept that. I know I have.

The question that should probably be asked is not if Poser is dying but what happens if Smith Micro doesn't manage to bring itself into compliance with the NASDAQ rules and winds up getting delisted on March 8th?

Neither SM nor DAZ tried to make any Genesis figure run better in Poser in the last year. Obviouslly, for both companies this isn't really important.

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

[bantha]

@Male_M3dia: I really don't know why you are spending so much time here. You are happy with the DAZ tech, it seems that the sales for Genesis stuff are good. Smith Micro did not include Genesis 3 compatibility in Poser 11, so I guess that at least for the next two years there won't be a reunification. I mean, this is a Poser forum, what do you want archive here? Let us see the TRUTH?

Here's the interesting thing anyone feels the need to single me out whenever conversations go this way.

I own Poser 7, Poser 2012 and Poser 9. So I have every much of a right to post my opinion in this forum as I am a poser user as well, so you may not like it but I use the software. Not as much as I used to, but I still have on my desktop if I need to open or even test something out. So next time you feel the need to point that out, please don't

Thank you.

Also note, that there has been far negative posts by people you consider poser users that you didn't point out. Whether I post or not will not change that one bit.

I can only come to one conclusion: that Poser and DS users WANNA fight.

Ok kiddies...back to your petty squabbling. You're making SOOOOOOO much headway these last SIX years fer chrissakes....

sigh

LaurieA posted at 3:32PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250217

I can only come to one conclusion: that Poser and DS users WANNA fight.

Ok kiddies...back to your petty squabbling. You're making SOOOOOOO much headway these last SIX years fer chrissakes....

sigh

I'm right behind you. I'll watch the kids squabble among each other without being a focal point to distract the conversation.

Male_M3dia posted at 2:36PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250216

Here's the interesting thing anyone feels the need to single me out whenever conversations go this way.

I own Poser 7, Poser 2012 and Poser 9. So I have every much of a right to post my opinion in this forum as I am a poser user as well, so you may not like it but I use the software. Not as much as I used to, but I still have on my desktop if I need to open or even test something out. So next time you feel the need to point that out, please don't

Thank you.

It's not about what you own or have used. Actually it would have surprised me if you don't have some old versions of Poser. I had a lot of Studio versions on my Computer, and open them for doing some stuff from time to time. I guess I don't like it any more than you seem to like the actual Poser version. But I don't hang around in DAZ forums, then.

Also note, that there has been far negative posts by people you consider poser users that you didn't point out. Whether I post or not will not change that one bit.

This may be true, but it does not make it better. "There are worse people than me" isn't really a good excuse for anything

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

DreaminGirl posted at 1:55PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250208

bhoins posted at 9:07PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250204

DreaminGirl posted at 12:51PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250188

bhoins posted at 8:11PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250178

The format, as has been stated repeatedly, is open. If SM wants to build a native importer they can, the only thing stopping SM, is SM. And Your comment about reaching out to Daz is contradicted by Nerd himself.

Seriously? All Nerd said here is that SM cannot 'fix' Daz's DSON plugin, as it is not their property. Only Daz can do that. It's like saying SM should fix issues with V4, but they obviously can't because it's not their property.

What is there to fix, well other than the bug that WandW mentioned?

He was specifically responding to Genesis 3 Support in Poser, which isn't within the scope of the plug-in. To do that would require a plug-in, using an incomplete and slow Python API, to take over skinning from Poser itself.

No, he was specifically addressing the DSON plugin. But whatever, read into it whatever you want.

Bottom line, both companies has decided to go their own ways, and we just have to accept that. I know I have.

The question stands, other than the issue that WandW brought up, what is it that needs to be fixed with the DSON Importer for Poser?

bantha posted at 3:59PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250225

Male_M3dia posted at 2:36PM Tue, 19 January 2016 - #4250216

Here's the interesting thing anyone feels the need to single me out whenever conversations go this way.

I own Poser 7, Poser 2012 and Poser 9. So I have every much of a right to post my opinion in this forum as I am a poser user as well, so you may not like it but I use the software. Not as much as I used to, but I still have on my desktop if I need to open or even test something out. So next time you feel the need to point that out, please don't

Thank you.

It's not about what you own or have used. Actually it would have surprised me if you don't have some old versions of Poser. I had a lot of Studio versions on my Computer, and open them for doing some stuff from time to time. I guess I don't like it any more than you seem to like the actual Poser version. But I don't hang around in DAZ forums, then.

Also note, that there has been far negative posts by people you consider poser users that you didn't point out. Whether I post or not will not change that one bit.

This may be true, but it does not make it better. "There are worse people than me" isn't really a good excuse for anything

But I'm going to point out that you're actually making a personal attack rather than actually discussing the subject. Did you have something to actually contribute to this subject? I would get back to that.

This is enough guys ... it's getting beyond a friendly debate and moving into software bashing and squabbling. Nothing constructive is going on here ... and the bottom line is that is what these forums are for.

Boni

---

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork