@chaecuna I was just reading one of your comments on here and it is apparent you are less than satisfied with the DRM which is okay and after all it has had a somewhat shaky history. The issue Autodesk users have and I guess this will apply to all the users of major software is the majority are all heading this way. So where are they going to go?. I was offered the perpetual license for 2016 but apparently that is the last one and they will only offer subscription only as they move into 2017. But subscription and DRM are two different things entirely and considering currently anybody can download Daz Pro for free and a subscription to Daz at $0.00 per month is not something I would be worrying about I also didn't know that was even being discussed so it is probably putting the cart before the horse. When Photoshop went to subscription based I was a little concerned but then when I looked at it and turns out a better deal. My early days with Photoshop the software cost a fortune and to upgrade even every few years the investment was considerable. Now I went subscription I just pay 10 bucks a month and I have the latest and greatest Photoshop has to offer at all times. I use it professionally so a couple of jobs it is paid for the rest of the year. I know plenty of people that could never afford PS as each time they got close something come up and they had to start again saving, they all have it now. Is subscription based a really bad thing.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

@EddyMI Something I would love to see myself ................Carrara 9

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

If you want to "try" it, I noticed the last public Beta is still in the Download Manager. ...but now that I bring it up, it may catch their attention, so hurry!!!

(...you can run the beta in parallel with an older release, just check the thread before installing it, to backup your content DB and other stuff)

@LPR001:

Going where? come on, you are not a clueless dummy... as mentionned in lots of threads on CGTalk, MODO, Houdini and Blender .

Apropos PS: GIMP has lingered for years, becoming a joke but in 2015 Krita has begun to evolve at Blender speeds, so it is just question of time for it to overtake PS. Already today PS users are salivating on Krita tiled paint mode, something that apparently does not exists in PS.

What makes me feel good is that even Allegorithmic rent-then-buy scheme (which even for me looks legit) is becoming harshly questioned and that in forums I regularily see mentions to boiling frogs. The general 3D user population is becoming aware of the menace ahead and is showing a massive repulse against anything remotely like always-online schemes. Saner firms and FOSS improving at Roadrunner speeds are the general answer to the where to go question.

Is there any trick to install DS 4.9 on an other drive, e. g. G, without deleting the 4.8 on D?

Ulli

"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!"

Jules53757 posted at 2:52PM Thu, 21 January 2016 - #4250495

Is there any trick to install DS 4.9 on an other drive, e. g. G, without deleting the 4.8 on D?

You can install the 32 bit and 64 bit of DS4, but not two versions of the same bit ie DS4.8 64 and 4.9 64, they write a ton of data into the registry (PC) and user files, that to have two different builds can really screw up your settings, it's why they made the beta a separate install through DIM only.

Thx

Ulli

"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!"

Once the official public release is in the DIM it will overwrite the 4.8. I run the 4.9 Beta and 4 .8 Public 64 bit side by side, I think it was pointed out a couple of comments up that the Beta was still in the DIM but that might have disappeared by now. I did see somewhere the advice to save a copy of the 4.8 as a backup set a restore point and at least you can go back. Whether that works in practice is another story.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

Use DIM to install content but do not download 4.9 files unless you are OK with DRM encryption.Once you download and install studio 4.9 your 4.8 is bye bye. If this is OK with you then go for it. For new users daz connect is great, you don't have to know how to do zip installs or upgrades it is all handled inside studio. The downside is that you have to deal with Online connection for DRM verification and encryption.

Daz Connect Official FAQ is here

@chaecuna - X-files

@Razor42 - Thanks for putting the FAQ here. It might help sort the wheat from the chaff :-)

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

LPR001 posted at 3:20PM Fri, 22 January 2016 - #4250559

@chaecuna - X-files @Razor42 - Thanks for putting the FAQ here. It might help sort the wheat from the chaff :-)

Shitting your pants, dear LPR001? you have all the reasons to do so .

I see your links and and bet the link the relevant thread on DAZ forums where people are telling DAZ they are "upset".

The most important fact I noticed in that thread is that many of the no-way-I-am-going-away posters qualify themselves as graphic professionals and this is significant on two levels:

1 - professionals are certainly big buyers and their leaving will significantly hurt DAZ (and DAZ PAs) bottom line (definitely heartwarming);

2 - much more significant, starting from today there is a market vacuum in the "character studio" arena, a great business opportunity for some enterprising group to step in or, wet dream, for some good FOSS initiative. In any case, big big troubles for DAZ. It won't happen tomorrow but I think that we might see something interesting on the subject at SIGGRAPH 2017.

P.S.: My faith in human kind slightly increased today. It appears that, at least in the CG professional community, sheeple desperately looking for a master to brutalize them are a minority in a sea of sane people.

As of right now, Daz is saying that all their previous content will continue to be available as non-encrypted and they have no plans to make new content connect-only, so I have no complaint about the new setup. If that should ever change then complaints will be justified IMO, but until and unless that happens, Daz Connect should present no problems.

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

3doutlaw posted at 8:13AM Fri, 22 January 2016 - #4250492

If you want to "try" it, I noticed the last public Beta is still in the Download Manager. ...but now that I bring it up, it may catch their attention, so hurry!!!

(...you can run the beta in parallel with an older release, just check the thread before installing it, to backup your content DB and other stuff)

Before the first 4.9 Public Beta was released the Public Beta was the same as the release version of 4.8. It isn't some big secret, Daz 3D knows all about it, to the point of making sure they are the same version.

Bejaymac posted at 8:15AM Fri, 22 January 2016 - #4250496

Jules53757 posted at 2:52PM Thu, 21 January 2016 - #4250495

Is there any trick to install DS 4.9 on an other drive, e. g. G, without deleting the 4.8 on D?

You can install the 32 bit and 64 bit of DS4, but not two versions of the same bit ie DS4.8 64 and 4.9 64, they write a ton of data into the registry (PC) and user files, that to have two different builds can really screw up your settings, it's why they made the beta a separate install through DIM only.

Absolutely correct.

chaecuna posted at 3:25PM Fri, 22 January 2016 - #4250614

LPR001 posted at 3:20PM Fri, 22 January 2016 - #4250559

@chaecuna - X-files @Razor42 - Thanks for putting the FAQ here. It might help sort the wheat from the chaff :-)

Shitting your pants, dear LPR001? you have all the reasons to do so .

I see your links and and bet the link the relevant thread on DAZ forums where people are telling DAZ they are "upset".

The most important fact I noticed in that thread is that many of the no-way-I-am-going-away posters qualify themselves as graphic professionals and this is significant on two levels:

1 - professionals are certainly big buyers and their leaving will significantly hurt DAZ (and DAZ PAs) bottom line (definitely heartwarming);

2 - much more significant, starting from today there is a market vacuum in the "character studio" arena, a great business opportunity for some enterprising group to step in or, wet dream, for some good FOSS initiative. In any case, big big troubles for DAZ. It won't happen tomorrow but I think that we might see something interesting on the subject at SIGGRAPH 2017.

P.S.: My faith in human kind slightly increased today. It appears that, at least in the CG professional community, sheeple desperately looking for a master to brutalize them are a minority in a sea of sane people.

With regard to Point #1, every time DAZ3D has implemented a major change, we have gotten the same types of responses in the forums. Some people actually follow through, and some don't. IMHO only time will tell if this is just an immediate reaction to change (FUD), or a true final position, and if it is representative of the total user base. If you listened to forum posters when DS 4 and Genesis were introduced, DAZ3D was on a self destruct mission. The same was true when they introduce DIM, but it seems that time has so far, proved these predictions wrong.

Point #2 - Not that I wouldn't love to see DAZ/Poser figure support in Blender (or another free or low cost top quality software), I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it. I've been waiting for 15 years to see a viable FOSS alternative to Poser or DS. There have been several attempts at building a good importer for Blender, which have all died because it is simply not that easy (plus it seems that for the most part the Blender community isn't interested, and neither is the vast majority of the DS/Poser crowd). I definitely wouldn't expect any major announcements of a FOSS competitor to DS/Poser at SIGGRAPH next year (or any year) - it is really more of a professional/academic affair. True SM and DAZ do quite often have booths there, but from personal experience I can say that neither one is exactly thought of as being leaders in 3D software or technology (and as a general rule, the users tend to garner even less respect). Not that I wouldn't be quite happy if something were to happen - I just don't expect it.

I'm no big fan of DRM, or encrypted content for DAZ, but predictions of their demise based on forum posts IMHO is a bit over jealous. Only time will tell if it will be successful, a push, or less than successful. I think DAZ Connect however will generally have greater appeal to the "got to have it now" crowd, as "in app" purchases make it much simpler. It's impossible to determine from our point of view (forumites with no knowledge of the extent of their user base, their buying habits, and general demographics) if the DS user base will quickly adopt it, or pass it by. People who participate in the forums are only a fraction of the total user base.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

Big question... If I install 4.9 and don't like the changes, can I remove it and install the with 4.8 installer I still have on my HDD?

@Gator762 I think the installer on the HDD instructs the DIM so it might depend on Daz 4.8 being available to download. I was wondering if you could set a restore point on your PC and then if need be set it back that way. I know I have taken a computer back 6 months on a restore point and it took off everything I had installed after that date and put back all the software/files I had booted off after it. You might want a few opinions before acting. I am running both and I did not really see much of a change between the two the most obvious is the connect and the little shop which both you can deal with.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

If like me you manually download the installers for each build then yes you can replace 4.9 with 4.8, the bitrock installers are a different item to what you get when you download through DUM, so it wont be overwritten, just manually uninstall DS first to stop any chance of it messing up on you.

@DustRider

This time is different.

First, I see lots of posts showing that people have finally realized that this is not just an episodic change but the beginning of the trip towards rental/always-on-line/cloud hell and therefore things can only get worse.

Second, I noticed that the number of posts of people proposing boycotts to make DAZ change their mind is quite low. People have, on most part, given up on hopes and they are now simply thinking about exit strategies. DAZ managed to destroy in a day 15 years of users trust and trust is something that you cannot rebuild.

chaecuna posted at 12:03PM Sat, 23 January 2016 - #4250815

@DustRider

This time is different.

First, I see lots of posts showing that people have finally realized that this is not just an episodic change but the beginning of the trip towards rental/always-on-line/cloud hell and therefore things can only get worse.

Second, I noticed that the number of posts of people proposing boycotts to make DAZ change their mind is quite low. People have, on most part, given up on hopes and they are now simply thinking about exit strategies. DAZ managed to destroy in a day 15 years of users trust and trust is something that you cannot rebuild.

Yes, it is a bit different because the issues are a bit different than with with the introduction of DS4 and Genesis, but they are rather similar to the concerns with DIM. Time will tell how it all shakes out, but taking a 30,000 foot view may give insight to possible success of their moves, rather than the numerous predictions of failure (i.e. stepping back taking in the big picture, and trying to remove my personal biases), Most people under the age of 25 now are very used to similar product delivery models, and often prefer them. They are used to, and want, instant gratification, and are less concerned with digital product longevity. So while there may be many forum users who are more comfortable with the "old" ways of doing things, there may be a whole market segment that you never see in the forums, and is very comfortable with connect and encryption. This market segment that would be virtually invisible to forum participants, but of course this is purely speculation, so I may well be completely wrong.

If it wasn't for the fact that I use Carrara and sometimes Poser (oh, and Blacksmith 3D) in addition to DS, I doubt I would have any major issues with DAZ Connect because it wouldn't cause any big issues with the functionality of DS (and you can still export encrypted and/or connect content). I would guess that most of the user base fits the DS only model, as the majority of Poser users no longer shop there, and Carrara users are a big minority. The encrypted content is a bit different issue. Again, more of the younger users are probably a bit more receptive, but anyone who has been burned buy any digital copy protection schemes will be rather reluctant, or simply refuse to buy encrypted content. It's hard to say how large a portion of the user based this demographic is, it could be 1%, 10%, or 50%, or more???. Right now though, encrypted content has only been DAZ originals, so there is still a lot of un-encrypted content available.

Regardless, IMHO, it will be several months before we really see, as customers/outsiders, what the possible acceptance of encrypted content is. DAZ Connect will probably be a bit like DIM, reluctance at first with increasing acceptance over time, with the exception Poser and Carrara users where Connect only products (or products installed via connect) can only be used in DS.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

I saw postings in the German forum that PC members are forced to use 4.9, no download of PC items in 4.8 anymore so they cancelled their membership.

Ulli

"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!"

The PC items yesterday and today are encrypted, connect only. They are also "free" with certain purchases. DAZ has made no announcement that PC Items will be encrypted /connect only, in fact, I think it was DAZ_Steve posted that the plan was to make yesterdays items available as connect or download, but he decided to make them connect only at the last minute.

I'm guessing that future PC items will not be connect only, and this is simply a promotional stunt to strongly encourage people to try connect (and 4.9), but I could be wrong. If I am wrong, I may have to rethink my PC membership as well. Not being able to use items directly in Carrara, as I can now, will reduce their value to me, and the value of PC+.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

The released Connect only items are not PC items they are DO (daz Originals) items, PC members are not being forced to do anything - that is just a load of bull.

Correct ... DO's not PC ... my bad

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

wheatpenny posted at 2:44PM Sat, 23 January 2016 - #4250619

"As of right now, Daz is saying that all their previous content will continue to be available as non-encrypted and they have no plans to make new content connect-only,...."

"and they have no plans to make new content connect-only," Well, that "truthful" statement from DAZ lasted almost 24hrs wheatpenny (no reflection on you). As of today at 3PM Pacific, they have six "DAZConnect" ONLY products in their store. Promotion on some of them doesn't change the fact that they are for sale without promotion with the same "DAZConnect" ONLY restriction that they claimed would NOT happen. Fool me once....

chaecuna posted at 8:34AM Sun, 24 January 2016 - #4250815

@DustRider

This time is different.

First, I see lots of posts showing that people have finally realized that this is not just an episodic change but the beginning of the trip towards rental/always-on-line/cloud hell and therefore things can only get worse.

Second, I noticed that the number of posts of people proposing boycotts to make DAZ change their mind is quite low. People have, on most part, given up on hopes and they are now simply thinking about exit strategies. DAZ managed to destroy in a day 15 years of users trust and trust is something that you cannot rebuild.

First day I saw the notice, I cancelled my Platinum Club membership, unsubscribed to all DAZ newsletters and removed all bookmarks to their site. I'm done with them. This was last straw.

Moonglow posted at 3:03PM Sun, 24 January 2016 - #4250889

wheatpenny posted at 2:44PM Sat, 23 January 2016 - #4250619

"and they have no plans to make new content connect-only,"

You missquoted them. They, obviously under the direction of their lawyers, always add a currently to their public statements. The only times you see absolute statements are the posts of DAZ PAs whose statement have no binding weight for DAZ (corporate).

@chaecuna For someone who has such a wide ranging knowledge of all things Daz and their internal operations it is a pity you don't have the same knowledge of how things operate here

Considering there would not be the bandwidth to put all your comments here from the threads of the 4.9 saga I will abbreviate it Trolling - In breach of the TOS Product bashing - In breach of the TOS Personal insults/character attacks - In breach of the TOS

Here is the link to the TOS please refresh your memory before any further posting in the Daz forum here at RenderosityRenderosity TOS

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

No No No! I do not use DRM, I won't use it even if i can. I do not even like eggs with ham.

Please do not encrypt the things i want to buy, it will just make me wanna cry & say b- bye.

My money is green. But is still call doe, its what everybody is after in this world don't you know,.

So watch as I grab tight to my doe in hand

All because I'm afraid of DRM & a future that could add in unwanted spam.
which would be nothing like eggs with ham.

Trust us they say it will be okay , But they have proven on different day, that just was not truly that way.

My Roses are red & I seen violates that are blue, I understand you may believe I am a loon,

But there is one thing that is perfectly clear. and maybe its just they can't hear. Hey its my green that supports their pay. and that is really what I have to say.

So try to have a really nice day, & I'll spend my money at Renderosity today.

(This poem was removed from a thread in the daz forum for what reason I have no idea.) I guess Daz people don't like cute protest poems.) The Daz people may think that encryption using a DRM/cloud server is their best way to curb piracy, But there is evidence already it did nothing to stop or even slow down piracy. seeming their connect only products are showing up all over the place. so why are they forcing it on paying honest long time customer? and even a bigger question. why are they not listening to their customer concerns?. from what I seen the nays have out way Yeas on using Daz_Connect. even with all the forum post that have been removed by their moderators. Its very heart breaking to me because I love daz.Studio. But I will never support DRM/cloud supported products unless its xbox. when Adobe went Creative cloud. it was actually a god send because i was able to find alternatives, that were cheaper that work as well. So I guess its time to update my poser pro program to supperfly and leave daz Studio in the past. That just makes So me sad I can not describe. but i hate DRM/ cloud or anything associated with it. and Daz_connect using DRM/ cloud to un-encrypt the products you buy there. even if its only one time is still a DRM/cloud server support product., and lets face it this stuff it to expensive to be locked into one program.

So beg Renderosity people please don't ever use DRM to deliver the products you sell. or I will stop buying your product here as well

That is all I have to say , Have a great day

DAZ "moderators" are so busy deleting posts that refreshing pages in the DRM thread induces vertigo.

Renderosity seems to have had a bout of sanity and they are actually promoting their products with the charming slogan "Don't let DRM Products limit your creativity... Shop Renderosity Today!".

chaecuna posted at 11:33PM Tue, 26 January 2016 - #4251430

DAZ "moderators" are so busy deleting posts that refreshing pages in the DRM thread induces vertigo.

Renderosity seems to have had a bout of sanity and they are actually promoting their products with the charming slogan "Don't let DRM Products limit your creativity... Shop Renderosity Today!".

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2898670&page_number=2#msg4250987

Please stop this behavior now. There is no excuse what so ever for anyone to take their frustrations out on staff.

Have a creative day!

********

My Lil' Store

3DFineries posted at 1:56PM Wed, 27 January 2016 - #4251466

Please stop this behavior now. There is no excuse what so ever for anyone to take their frustrations out on staff.

It would be frustration if I gave a shit about them, something that I do not do.

It is a service to the community: if you cannot find anymore posts over there, rest assured that you had no hallucination but things (post, customers, etc.) vanishing for real. No need to rush to the nearest neurologists .

"Renderosity seems to have had a bout of sanity and they are actually promoting their products with the charming slogan "Don't let DRM Products limit your creativity... Shop Renderosity Today!"."

This is an expected and natural Marketing reaction to DAZ's new DRM implementation

So What is the actual catastrophe for those who dont want to buy from DAZ going forward?? How will your personal CG/Art/animations/ Naked girl Gallery renders, or whatever be stopped or even hindered by Encrypted content from Daz ??

Buy at RDNA & Here etc. and Life will go on.

If you are an exclusive DAZ studio user keep your version of 4.8 and CREATE something with the Hoard of content I assume you already have.

If you are an exclusive poser user this presents no problem for you or your poser native content ( no draconian encryption for that brobdignagian deluge of content for Paul& Pauline..right??).

"OH but its about ownership, the Principle blah blah"

Ask your self what in your modern life do you actually "own" both tangible and nontangible.

You dont "own" the water that Flushes away your intestinal waste you rent it from the water utility. Nor do you "own" the electricity that powers/recharges whatever Device you are using to post in this forum you RENT the electricity from some "heartless megacorp who is likely buggering the environment in some fashion.

You do not own any of the non tangible content you pay to watch on Cable TV or netflix or any of the music you stream from "Spotify"etc.

On the Matter of "3D software and content" it seems that at some point people stopped reading EULA's and began to believe they actually "owned" their Digital Hoards.

Welcome to REALITY.

My website

YouTube Channel

@chaecuna, are you deliberately trying to get yourself banned?

Attacks on staff (and other members for that matter)are not allowed and you know that, but you keep doing it anyway.

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

I'm not worried about what happens to my "old content." Over the past decade or so, I've downloaded every single item I've bought. I've made DVD copies, and "clone" backups or every hard drive. I had been installing my content manually for many years before DAZ released DIM. I use DIM, out of curiosity now, but still install all my content manually.

I think DAZ made a mistake with DIM, and DAZ is just digging themselves in deeper with DAZ Connect. They had a good idea, but failed to fix existing problems with their file organization etc. Those are my opinions, but I won't waste any more emotional energy on the subject. I probably won't buy much from DAZ for awhile. I need to save my money for more important and rewarding things, like new eyeglasses or a new computer.

@Tony_Stark I know what you mean about the eyeglasses and need a new pair as I wore my eyes out over the 4.9 threads ;-)

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

LPR001 posted at 8:32PM Wed, 27 January 2016 - #4251582

@Tony_Stark I know what you mean about the eyeglasses and need a new pair as I wore my eyes out over the 4.9 threads ;-)

Hi Johnny G, I would greatly be interested in watching some of your animations if you have any you like to share I seen your Sig-tag. that is why i asked if you have any. you can watch my last one I did here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4KlH5Mz2t4

Animation was the only reason I loved using daz studio. though it has a some draw backs now. So I'm going to try poser again.. it has more features like physics & built in dynamic controls for animation plus all my older FX content i have still works in poser 2012 so I guessing it will with poser 11 maybe not until i try it..

Though you got to admit , It seems every time Daz comes out with a new software version upgrade, some how they manage break compatible with last copies of their software. even some content. . they pretty must totally broke compatibility with poser and carrera now. I don;t see how that is for the better But some how they do. I dunno how daz 4.9 works with Iclone now either because i don't have iclone . But I assume Daz it broke compatibility with iclone the same as poser & carrera .

I got some great in programming fx tools like Nerds fire & smoke, and Nerds wave & Dusty trail tool. Practical FX etc they all use to work great in Daz still. but not anymore. Also I've been hearing & seeing some really good results with superfly That has intrigued me to try using poser again. I have PP2012 when i get paid this Friday I'm gonna use my 60% upgrade coupon & update to poser 11. . I will not get into the new daz DRM policy anymore. I am so done with Newer versions of DAZ studio. if can't use the content in poser and carrera as well whats the point of buying it. so I'll just speak with my money. find what I can when its available here.

Anyway I love all types of animation so if you have any to share I would love to watch them :) you may like this last animation I did with daz studio 4.8 and Adobe premiere pro check it out. when you get a chance. I love to see some of your sometime. . I seen some really cute stuff created from this forum. Have a nice day.

Hi Ivy,

This last post Ivy with a lot of sweetness mixed in, does seems to be have quite a bit of flame baiting buried in also. I'm not sure if you're aware of the history in these forums, but threads like this can often turn very ugly, quickly if things get out of control. If I did post a similar post to your last two in the Poser forum it would turn very ugly fast and I would possibly be reprimanded for stirring up trouble or flame baiting.

I mean you mentioned 'Poser' nine times in that last post. Which hey Poser is great, but this is the DS forums so let's try to keep it a little on topic and talk about DS not the reasons why you're buying the new version of Poser. I'm sure the Poser forum would love to hear it so maybe there would be a better place to share your obvious Poser enthusiasm. :)

One instance in your post mentions that you believe Poser has "more features", while I could easily name a good ten or so features to be found in DS that Poser doesn't have. Each does have their own feature set and I honestly don't feel either platform has "more" just different. But a simple statement like that does come across a bit like looking for an argument.

While your opinions may be against DRM and it's protection of PA content and that's fine. But you can't expect to continually drop in here and restate your points and not expect to eventually be challenged over them to a degree. As not everyone does agree with the opinions you're stating. If you want to see where this kind of discourse on DRM in Daz Studio has been so far, maybe have a read through this 12 page thread, as it has been discussed quite exhaustively in both Pro and Con aspects :https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2895510 before turning this thread into another downward spiral.

I'm all for you having an opportunity to vent and express your frustrations with Daz 3D and their recent changes, which I feel you did quite well in your first post. But I'm not going to just continue to sit back and let you bash DS and Daz 3D repetitively without offering counterpoints to your assertions. This is a DS forum not a Daz 3D vent forum so can we please try to stay on topic and not just use this as a platform for expressing personal frustration.

@poisinivy Would you believe I have had the pleasure of watching your video before? I think the same of it now as I did then ....... I love it!! I also noticed a favourable comment from Peter Blood now there is a man that knows his stuff. I will send you a link to a website where you can check out my work. As a moderator putting it here might be a little self serving being commercial.

Now about the Daz ---> part. Are you using Daz 4.9 beta or the official 4.9 release? Daz 4.9 beta had an issue I am thinking towards the last update where when exporting you would send it out but when trying to open in another program it would crash. I could close 4.9 open the exact same project file in 4.8 that the character etc was prepared for and set the timeline to 1 frame if I had added a facial expression DUF key and export FBX open it in the other software usually 3DXChange 6 and carry on as normal. (I set the timeline to 1 because it speeds up the export by about 20 times over at least and at my age every second counts) As far as I know this issue was fixed re the export glitch perhaps a Daz staffer can confirm this.

If you still have 4.8 then you should not have an issue

Looking at your clip if you were to ask me what software would I recommend to do your animations I would say Reallusion iClone Pipeline and Daz both are DRM. I started in the music industry well before DRM but it has been in for a long time now and then got into film/animation which if you head into the serious software and also want to be protecting your own work the DRM is just like part of the furniture. I shop for clients projects and a car for example on some sites can range from 100 to 1500 bucks each with licensing so I can tell you there isn't a car left in the Daz store and the Rendo MP upstairs here better get a wriggle on because Nationale7 and a few others aint building them quick enough. Same goes for all the city blocks and props in Poser or Daz format.

I have two clips to release shortly for an Australian band I started them long before Daz even mentioned the DRM and I am still working on them now using Daz for export. I recommend hang in there and wait before making any major decisions over Daz but while you wait take a little trip upstairs to the MP and download the iClone trial and have some fun, Check your specs first but if you are using the software you already indicated it should be fine :-) If you like it then you already have a great library I run PP2014 and Daz purely to buy, prepare and export for animation. oh with the occasional render in each either album covers or for fun. Bryce is good for terrains............... use them all.

I will send you that link.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

Hi Razor42 trust me I am doing my best to be respectful I'm very frustrated with whats happen at daz, and more so with their moderator. so will not go back. so you are right.yes some of my comments are going to be very bitter & sweet. in reality I am sweet most of the time. But Daz new policy brought out the worst. in me .. maybe because of how much I have invest with them ocver the year. . and the daz people just shuffling our complaints under the rug just makes it worst. and yes they are doing that. when they remove post that contain any critizm so I think its be be expected people are going to be angry and Daz and their posse should have understand. what people forget is by you accepting DRM encrypted products is just enforces companies to use it.

Now for your second part of you comment. Yes I used poser way befoe daz. Poser is what brought me to daz. and now iot looks like Daz is forcing me back into oposer because I will not supoort Daz new policy.. so please stop trying to convince me. Now you said I mentions poser 12 times well I can only go by my experience with poser pro 2012 as i have not upgrade to poser 11, but have been learning all I can about it because I do like bullet physics So I am not making judgement if Poser 11 is better at this time. but as it stand poser 2012 is more advance to me for animation accept I don;t use Iray for animation so I could careless about it. . But superfly uses GPU as well so and I read it was made with animation as its intended use. that is what intrigue me. PLUS do know for a fact daz studio has no bullet physics . I know for a fact daz studio use a dynamic clothing control that is a plugin and not part built as part of the program. not going to mention thay Daz dynaimc controls are borderline usable if it works for you in animation I would love to see how good you down with it. then that may inspire me to recant my opinon. but its crap from what I can do with it
Plus it wa something we been asking and asking for but in studio & never seems to that important to daz to do.

I have been working with daz exclusively for the last 3 years for animation and love it that is why I dropped poser for it. But I have had some very bad experiences with companies using encryption to deliver their products using a drm server that I will not bother to talk about in here because it will just add to the tension. But I will never defend or support drm ANYTHING EVER . so please don;t try to convince me

Anyway i will continue to use daz4.8 as long as I can and I will be upgrading to poser because it was my first 3d software , I use to very good with poser and lot of my older generation FX tools I bought for daz and poser . do not work in the new version of daz studio 4.8 so I know they will not work in studio4.9 But they still work in my poser 8 and poser 2012 because I just used those tools for my dragon warrior animation. so I am assuming for the better they will work as well in poser 11 and that is why I had mention poser 12 times in my statement. I hoping for. Particle FX will still work as well in poser 11 its a awesome in program FX tool

Now you may not want to admit that daz breaks compatibility with each new release of Studio . but all you have to do is ask any correra and Poser user they will tell you different . that is all I going to say about that. I was reading some of the forum at realillusion tonight . and it appears some of Iclone user are having issue with Daz Connect products they bought not working in Iclone as well so that is why I am done talking about it daz connect. its buyer beware. and when what happens what I predict will happen . than I will say I told you so .. if not then you can tell me. hows that? As I said I am so done using new versions of studio, and I will not enforce the use of it by purchin any more products at daz encrupted or not.. it seems to be my only option for a private protest. so I'll stick with 4.8 and update and try poser 11 and work with that . I have Autodesk suite. bought when i was finishing my classes at Tennessee State I got a real good deal because I got a upgrade price for me studdent version so I only paind $900 for a $4000 suite , But trying to use it is like trying to learn forerin language to me.

So I will do my best to behave.. But you have to understand people have a lot invested in Daz and we are angry. and the best way to deal with anger is to vent. where the daz posse like it or not. that I do apologize for

Thank you for your reply Razor . and No hard feeling towards you my friend. not to sound like George Harrison .. "All things pass." so shall this .

@ Johnny G , Please call me Ivy that is my real name.

Thank you for your reply I known peter for a while , your right he is a good guy and great with sound advice. I never used daz 4.9 beta or any 4.9 versions once they Daz mention the word drm. I was done. like I said I have some very bad experiences, with DRM & cloud services. and recently it looks like Hollywood is as well..lol and like you I too and a musician I play and record Guitar and Piano. But I just teach it now to some of the kids at the high school . I guess thats what happens when you get old/ I would love to see some of your animations that is why I asked. Other people animations are what inspire me to do better in my own project. I don;t like trolls but i do accept constructive criticism very well and I do listen to it if I feel it will help me improve my projects, like I said I have seen some great stuff done by some very talented people . and yes you are right DRM cloud is the what the next generation is accepting because they never experienced standalone software or the freedom that comes with it. and the younger generations also depend on Mobil devices for communication more then I would as well, it does not mean I have to accept it. when it comes to 3d content. I buy I know I don't actually own the 3d content i pay for & just the rights to use it.. But when I pay very good hard earn money for content I want to store the back ups in my own drives not on some company that could sell out to someone else and loses all my back ups because they are encrypted.. its happen before to me so please don't tell me it does happen. I could name as many reason DRM cloud is bad as the Daz posse can name the posictives .so as I said I am done with it I will stick with daz 4.8 which I have great success with and by the 3d content i can use in it as long as I can and that will be it,, screw it I guess these companies don't want my money. Now like many others here. I have for the last few years set a side $100 a month to buy 3d content will which I spend and then some. its a budget I am happy I could maintain.for as long as I have. and even bragged abuot. which has given me a huge library of content. which I use to create my animations. . I am alsoways on the look out for thing i can use in my animation.. maybe that is why I am so Upset about daz new drm policy because that not came to a screeching halt.

Now lets change the subject. I ador any type animations. the cornier the better. I like serious animations and I like goofy test animations just as much .. because someone has put the effort into create it. and should be applauded even for the most feeble attempts because you know well as I its not easy to do.

Please send me a site message if you like, I would enjoy seeing your animations. I'm not much of a critic though I just love watching them and see how people create them and their individual style in which really is the best part.

Thank you for your reply I will do my best to curb my frustration and angry. But I hope people understand . we feel like we been passed over for a younger generation that will accept anything.. and our money and concerns mean shit. Add that too the fact I am NOT politically correct at all by any means. in fact I feel it s duty to call it out as when i see it..Boy am I ever living in the wrong time period.lol

Have a great evening

ps I am very dyslexic so sorry for the bad spelling my spell checker not working tonight.

yeah well you know what us Dazzies are like Ivy quiet, shy and reserved as razor pointed out we have touched on the DRM topic with the odd passing comment. I will send u the link to some of my work. :-)

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

SIgh... Must be nice, must be nice...

.... .... ....

Well thanks for sharing those thoughts with us Ivy,

Though there is a whole other side to DRM, where as a content provider we spend hours upon hours chained to our desk to be rewarded within minutes of a new item being released in store, with the sight of our creations being stolen and distributed freely. And why not as they are just a .zip file with absolutely no protection at all. Really it's the equivalent of taking your new car to the ghetto leaving your keys in the ignition and going for a walk. Relying on nothing more than the goodwill of your fellow man that it will be there on your return.

And I'm not just talking a few little swaps here between friends, I'm talking stolen thousands of times in tens of different places within a single week of release. DRM isn't solely designed to be an imposition for yourself, the user. It's a mitigative effort to protect creative content from rampant piracy in the industry. It's not a matter of being passed over, it's a matter of modern content protection. Whether you know it or not DRM is likely on your phone, computer and entertainment systems, most have many forms of DRM on them. It's likely that the web browser you're using right now to read this has built in DRM support. This very webpage uses HTTPS which has built in support for DRM content. I noticed your cool video on Youtube, Youtube has DRM! Putting your video on Youtube is supporting a company that uses DRM...

So go on feeling that you don't like DRM, don't support and won't use it, but in reality you may be somewhat in denial.

And while you may feel those mods at Daz 3D were quite mean to you, they were just doing their jobs. Which from what I have seen at times isn't a position I would wish on anyone.

You may feel you're making a grand protest against DRM, but in reality you are just turning your back on Daz 3D and their efforts to protect their PA's content via Encryption. Which is your choice to make.

I'm honestly not trying to convince you of anything, you have made your position abundantly clear and I do wish you the best whichever path you choose to travel. And I hope Poser (18 times in last post...) delivers the tools you need for your animation projects. I'm sure the Poser crowd will be happy to see them and offer you any support you may need.

Hi Razon thank you for your thoughtful & respectful reply back to me, I understand everything you say & your point of view. But lets just leave it as we agree to disagree. I will still be using my Daz studio 4.8 along with upgrades to other software & will I buy support those products that only can be access without encryption.

BTW for the record I may not make 3d content . But I do make and sell web site starter templates in HTML5 , Jquery , API frame works and C+++ ,web site back end templates. which take me weeks to develop comes in a ZIP file. & it usually end up being pirated within a few weeks of being released on MonstertempleteDotcom where i sell them, so I understand exactly what your saying of potential income loss. The one difference is my products will come with lifetime support & not filled with Malware,viruses & crypto- lockers or worst, like you will find on torrents offering my pirated products. So anyone that is stupid enough to use pirated content deserves to be cryto-locked & eventually will be if they keep seeking out illegal content. that is why I believe serious users will not use pirated content.because of the investments they have in their computer equipment. So I believe the lost in revenue because of Piracy is not as great as I am being told by other that sell on that site as well.. like it is in the music industry. Pirating is very frustrating I agree. trying to get those sites to remove my products is a real hassle and sometimes can not be removed at all because of where the servers are located in other counties... so I have come accept it as doing business online. doesn't mean I'm going to starting selling them as a Subscription cloud encrpted only content like Adobe or other places do. I'm still using MS office 2008 which is not cloud service works great. so why would I want to pay $30 a month for MS cloud office 365?

Anyway can we change this subject now its hurting my brain. I wanna brag for a second. I bought a awesome new Helicopter for one of my animation off another site today which I can not list here because of the Redo Tos. But it is one of Daz venders that have their private own site for slling content, they sent me a link last night after reading my post on my blog site at WordPress & how upset I am & lets say it made me pleased that someone felt I was important and that my money mattered. Plus I can use it Studio4.,8 which when tested worked great and it came as C2r with the wavefront .Obj included ina 7zip which makes it usable in other software . That made me feel good and gave me some faith back. and I will continue to patronize him now. I respect your opinions Razor even if I may not agree with them.

Have a nice day

LPR001 posted at 2:32PM Thu, 28 January 2016 - #4251724

yeah well you know what us Dazzies are like Ivy quiet, shy and reserved as razor pointed out we have touched on the DRM topic with the odd passing comment. I will send u the link to some of my work. :-)

Please send me the link I really do enjoy animations of all types. : ) I've made 60 of them over the years

So I believe the lost in revenue because of Piracy is not as great as I am being told by other that sell on that site as well.. like it is in the music industry.

There are many other impacts beyond purely monetary that need to be considered.

I was reading on a somewhat dodgy site, people who believe piracy is a freedom of information activity. Seeing themselves as community based free thinkers and digital revolutionaries. On this thread they had taken to speculating about 'What if piracy was legalised globally?'. One of the first things they all agreed on is, it would bring an end to most of the existing media structures. When asked 'Well, where will new content and media come from when these media giants fall?' The answer was immediately put forward, well because the pirates are so creative and morally sound in motivation they will create the new media themselves. Of course it will all be opensource and free to everyone. I thought 'Wow, that's great pirates are willing to work for free, with 0 income for the betterment of mankind to bring us all media content'. I guess they can just depend on someone else to feed, shelter, clothe and protect them as they will be in effect 'media monks'.

In reality, it's purely a delusion being put forward to justify their actions as not only a destructive one, and it also helps to ease their conscious. Most people engaged in this kind of behaviour are quite misinformed about it's impact and do work diligently to create that margin of doubt of it being a victimless crime. It actually made me think of what the world would be like where media was nothing more than a global 'Please be kind rewind' project. Sounds pretty sad to me.

Razor42 posted at 9:15PM Thu, 28 January 2016 - #4251893

So I believe the lost in revenue because of Piracy is not as great as I am being told by other that sell on that site as well.. like it is in the music industry.

There are many other impacts beyond purely monetary that need to be considered.

I was reading on a somewhat dodgy site, people who believe piracy is a freedom of information activity. Seeing themselves as community based free thinkers and digital revolutionaries. On this thread they had taken to speculating about 'What if piracy was legalised globally?'. One of the first things they all agreed on is, it would bring an end to most of the existing media structures. When asked 'Well, where will new content and media come from when these media giants fall?' The answer was immediately put forward, well because the pirates are so creative and morally sound in motivation they will create the new media themselves. Of course it will all be opensource and free to everyone. I thought 'Wow, that's great pirates are willing to work for free, with 0 income for the betterment of mankind to bring us all media content'. I guess they can just depend on someone else to feed, shelter, clothe and protect them as they will be in effect 'media monks'.

In reality, it's purely a delusion being put forward to justify their actions as not only a destructive one, and it also helps to ease their conscious. Most people engaged in this kind of behaviour are quite misinformed about it's impact and do work diligently to create that margin of doubt of it being a victimless crime. It actually made me think of what the world would be like where media was nothing more than a global 'Please be kind rewind' project. Sounds pretty sad to me.

You just hit the nail on the head as to why the various protection schemes actually do little to increase sales. Many, if not most, of the people involved in "pirate" activities simply don't view the world the way you (or I) do, and have a different value system. The crackers/hackers do it for social status, years ago they often made sure their "ID" was included with the "package". I would guess it is still that way. While many of the users of their "products" would do without product "X", before paying for it. Other users will typically be people who simply can not afford to buy the retail version. Neither one of these groups will buy the products. So the few people who don't fit these two major groups, might buy the product. So for what DAZ is doing, the big question is will the few people who might now buy their encrypted content offset the number of people who now won't buy encrypted content? Of course this all assumes that the content isn't cracked and put up on pirate sites anyway. If cracked versions are redistributed, then really all that has happened is lost sales from people who won't buy the encrypted content, or that are much more selective and by less content due to encryption

It's important to remember that the "pirates" and their "customers" do not see the world the same way other people do.

Of course this is just my opinion.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

Well what you're saying has a lot of truth. There are a few things you may not be considering though.

Growth in anything is generally accelerated by a number of conditions. Conducive environment being the major factor. You could argue that piracy only exists because the environment is conducive to the practices used. So in an environment where piracy is possible and easy you can only expect to see more piracy. And as a pirate thinks different as we discussed, once they have come to accept that they can access this content for free, with almost 0 effort or risk, it is unlikely they will ever decide, encrypted or not, to rejoin the legitimate customer base.

That said by reducing the conduciveness of the environment in this case, the ease of piracy. You may have an impact on the growth of piracy as an expanding user base. Meaning that if the means to acquire a product is harder through illegitimate means an individual may not enter into piracy at all and accept that access is easily grant by a legitimate purchase. Financial hardship is another conducive factor to piracy but generally not the largest one.

An environment that allows piracy to thrive is in a way perpetuating the practice. To do nothing is to actively allow the practice of copyright infringement to continue to grow and expand it's own user base and community.

So for what DAZ is doing, the big question is will the few people who might now buy their encrypted content offset the number of people who now won't buy encrypted content?

The answer to this is, well it's hard to judge accurately, but you could say that reducing the accessibility of illegal content will damage the expansion of piracy as a practice. Imagine if when you typed into google and the first 300 hits were to torrent sites with illegal content. And not legitimate sites. The likelihood of any individual at any given time to visit one of these sites and perhaps try a few illegal downloads would be greater. Does google removing these threads stop piracy? No, but it does mitigate people's access to pirated content to a certain degree. In a similar way that Daz encryption mitigates casual pirating. One thing is for certain though continued free access to pirate material will only result in more piracy.

No doubt the new encryption will curtail some of the casual illegal sharing among friends/family. However, if the crackers (meaning those that just love to crack software protection schemes) see this as someone throwing down the gauntlet, and worthy of their time, then the once encrypted content will show up just like the current un-encrypted content, either being fully un-encrypted, or with a simple way to install the encrypted content and have it fully functional on any computer. If this happens, then what will the real benefit to curtail real pirating be (not casual sharing)?

Sure, those that once shared the content casually (the friends and family plan), can no longer do that, so they will either decide to purchase their own (if they can), they will go without, or they will now be visiting the pirate sites because they are mad at DAZ. For the other consumers of pirated content/software, they will just have to wait until the illegal version shows up for download. Once the cracker understands how it is encrypted, the time to wait for the cracked version to show up will probably be minimal at best. Of course, they may feel that the stuff from DAZ isn't worth their time to crack, because it's monetary value is low, and may not have the status value they want.

Encrypted content will reduce sharing of content via the "friends and family plan", but it will take a while to learn if it stops other pirating or not. It will also take a bit of time for DAZ to get any sort of real understanding if and/or how this will/has impacted their sales.

For me personally, DAZ Connect only, or encrypted only content carries a lower overall value index. First and foremost, it is not directly usable in Carrara (or Poser). Second, I prefer to not have software or content that has any sort of protection scheme, simply because of inconveniences that are often associated with the protection schemes, which also may at some point for unforeseen reasons include loss of use of the product. I'm not saying with the right item I won't purchase encrypted content, but it is devalued because of the encryption, or being connect only. For example, I really, really like Lynsey for Genesis 3, but because she is encrypted I chose to pass on her (and spending $49 dollars to get her free was a no go too). In fact, there hasn't been one encrypted item yet that I would buy. Lynsey was the closest to getting my money, but the value, because of encryption, simply wasn't there for me. Your mileage may vary.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

That was hard going. Well done Ivy, Razor & DustRider

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

No doubt the new encryption will curtail some of the casual illegal sharing among friends/family. However, if the crackers (meaning those that just love to crack software protection schemes) see this as someone throwing down the gauntlet, and worthy of their time, then the once encrypted content will show up just like the current un-encrypted content, either being fully un-encrypted, or with a simple way to install the encrypted content and have it fully functional on any computer. If this happens, then what will the real benefit to curtail real pirating be (not casual sharing)?

I honestly have trouble getting my ahead around this type of theory. There hasn't been a physical lock invented that 100% works every time, a Safe designed that will keep everyone out forever. All of these are security devices that mitigate. Have you ever heard anyone saying they are worthless because they are not 100% effective all of the time? I also think people have an inflated rating of the average pirates ability to hack or crack anything more difficult than a pack of Doritos. Most piracy is the form of exploiting a loophole. In existing content the loophole is the .zip format which has 0 protection.

A lot what happens if/when Daz 3D product encryption is hacked/cracked is pure speculation. As a lot would depend on the method. Can you use a cracked product on any version of DS? Will you need a cracked version of DS? Can you use a cracked version of DS with the store and not have the store know that its cracked. If you are using a cracked version what happens with upgrades, WIll your cracked version be dependent on a small group that can release cracked product etc? The only pirated encrypted product I have seen so far used an export method to circumvent the encryption and was rather sloppily done.

Plus cracked version of a pirated item are at least 5 times as risky, because the potential for a skilled black hat to embed malicious code is far greater than in a straightforward .zip of content that you can scan easily. Want to crack DS encryption? Just run this little program make sure to turn of your security setting first so Daz isn't alerted....

Casual piracy goes beyond friends and family sharing. It refers to an unskilled pirate picking up a .zip and uploading it to a torrent site with no actual barriers to impede them.

Content compatibility in my eyes is the biggest issue at the moment with encryption, alongside of continued access to paid for legitimate content in the long term. Hopefully we will see both of these addressed in the future by Daz, I would expect at least Carrara to see some love for the encrypted format in the future. As far as Poser compat goes, the issue goes well beyond encryption with the divide between the two apps growing with each incremental update.

LPR001 posted at 7:36PM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251922

That was hard going. Well done Ivy, Razor & DustRider

Just don't call me Razon ;)

I will try but I have a library of names I will use up first I assure you.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

Razor42 posted at 9:58AM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251926

LPR001 posted at 7:36PM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251922

That was hard going. Well done Ivy, Razor & DustRider

Just don't call me Razon ;)

would Razin be acceptable ? J/k :)

LPR001 posted at 11:00AM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251922

That was hard going. Well done Ivy, Razor & DustRider

No problem Johnny! Isn't that the way adult discussions are supposed to work?

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

Razor42 - the pirates won't crack the product DRM - they will bypass the encryption in Daz Studio.

I love you guys, but vendors are delusional in thinking that piracy = lost sales. The people who download pirated content never had any intention of paying for the products, at ANY price.

It is obvious that DAZ's long-term goal is customer lock-in with a subscription model and/or renting 3d assets. The people that made DAZ great (and Steve Kondris) no longer work at DAZ. The new owners are looking for steady income streams - which CAN NOT be done with DAZ's current sales "structure". This is simple business economics.

Coding-wise, it is a very short step from using DRM content to requiring DRM content. Anyone want to take bets on the next version of genesis (24 months out) being "DAZ-Connect"-only?

Razor42 posted at 1:02PM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251925

No doubt the new encryption will curtail some of the casual illegal sharing among friends/family. However, if the crackers (meaning those that just love to crack software protection schemes) see this as someone throwing down the gauntlet, and worthy of their time, then the once encrypted content will show up just like the current un-encrypted content, either being fully un-encrypted, or with a simple way to install the encrypted content and have it fully functional on any computer. If this happens, then what will the real benefit to curtail real pirating be (not casual sharing)?

I honestly have trouble getting my ahead around this type of theory. There hasn't been a physical lock invented that 100% works every time, a Safe designed that will keep everyone out forever. All of these are security devices that mitigate. Have you ever heard anyone saying they are worthless because they are not 100% effective all of the time? I also think people have an inflated rating of the average pirates ability to hack or crack anything more difficult than a pack of Doritos. Most piracy is the form of exploiting a loophole. In existing content the loophole is the .zip format which has 0 protection.

A lot what happens if/when Daz 3D product encryption is hacked/cracked is pure speculation. As a lot would depend on the method. Can you use a cracked product on any version of DS? Will you need a cracked version of DS? Can you use a cracked version of DS with the store and not have the store know that its cracked. If you are using a cracked version what happens with upgrades, WIll your cracked version be dependent on a small group that can release cracked product etc? The only pirated encrypted product I have seen so far used an export method to circumvent the encryption and was rather sloppily done.

Plus cracked version of a pirated item are at least 5 times as risky, because the potential for a skilled black hat to embed malicious code is far greater than in a straightforward .zip of content that you can scan easily. Want to crack DS encryption? Just run this little program make sure to turn of your security setting first so Daz isn't alerted....

Casual piracy goes beyond friends and family sharing. It refers to an unskilled pirate picking up a .zip and uploading it to a torrent site with no actual barriers to impede them.

Content compatibility in my eyes is the biggest issue at the moment with encryption, alongside of continued access to paid for legitimate content in the long term. Hopefully we will see both of these addressed in the future by Daz, I would expect at least Carrara to see some love for the encrypted format in the future. As far as Poser compat goes, the issue goes well beyond encryption with the divide between the two apps growing with each incremental update.

I think there may be a bit of difference between how you and I define some of the terms we are using, which is causing some of our incongruities. Anyway, to me casual refers to a very low risk activity, which would be the friends and family plan. Once someone illegally puts something on a torrent, then there is some higher level of risk (and intent) involved, which indicates either the person doing so has an issue with DAZ, the PA, or just believes that everything should be free to everyone. For lack of a better term I'll just call this level of sharing/pirating the Robin Hood Syndrome (RHS).

So, for illegal casual sharing, and RHS, encryption will definitely stop most, if not all of it. Simple export/import won't work either (due to the loss of quality that you mentioned), so truly cracking the encryption would have to come from more skilled individuals. Before I move on the the higher level, I am faced with the question, just how many of these people engaging in illegal casual sharing or RHS sharing will actually buy the products if they are never cracked? There are not good statistics to rely on here, just personal views, experiences, and instinct which ultimately forms our own opinions. My opinion is that the vast majority of the people involved in RHS downloading are not regular DAZ customers, may not have ever purchased anything from DAZ, and are unlikely to start now. As you noted from your brief trip to the dark side, many of these people feel it is their right to receive digital goods for free. I feel it is highly unlikely that they will purchase anything from DAZ if they can't get it for free, because that is counter to their world view (why people like this are often referred to as being a part of a counter culture).

I surmise from some of your statements above, that you feel the people downloading content from torrent sites are also paying DAZ customers. If this is true, then my assumptions are obviously wrong. However, even the comments you noted from your visit to the darker side seem to counter this view that the down-loaders are also customers (but no doubt some of the distributors are customers). If sales increase dramatically for encrypted content, then obviously my assessment of the situation is completely wrong.

The other question is will the crackers be interested in cracking the content and/or DS if needed. It really depends on if they see it as a worthy and worth while challenge. If a cracked version of DS would be required in addition to the content, many of the downsides you noted, such as no upgrades to DS, I would think simply don't apply to this counter culture. If they have a working version, that is really all that matters. They can wait until a new cracked version comes out if there are any new major features. Otherwise, they are already OK with the fact that they won't get continual bug fixes, after all, what do they expect for "free"??? There is one area though that we will simply have to agree to disagree. There is no doubt what so ever in my mind that if an experienced cracker decides to take on Encrypted DAZ content, and if needed, DS too, they will be able to keep the flow of perfectly usable DS content going. For the last 30 years, and probably longer, as far as I know, there has not been one commercial software protection scheme that has not been fully compromised when a dedicated cracker (or crackers) has taken on the task (I did spend some time as a part of my job on the dark side of the web years ago). Keep in mind their goal is to develop a crack that will provide everyone with full functionality. Maybe DAZ has developed a scheme that is more difficult to crack than anything else that has ever been used, but I honestly doubt it. These guys/gals who do the cracking are geniuses (seriously, those who have been caught typically have very impressive IQ's), and take real pride in the fact that they outsmarted the protection scheme creators (who are also typically really smart).

To be honest though, I doubt DAZ content will have the needed clout to even show up on the radar screen of the real crackers. The software is free, the content is inexpensive, so the status points for cracking the encryption are probably pretty low. However, it may still garner the interest of someone, and if it does, I have little doubt that it will be fully compromised, and once it is, the turn around from new release at DAZ to release on pirate sites will be quite short. Also, keep in mind I'm not talking about what you call the average pirate, the people who just upload and share files illegally(i.e. DAZ/Poser stuff, music, videos, etc.) are not in the same 'class", and do not have the skill set needed to crack the protection schemes. Again, only time will tell what will happen.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

ssgbryan posted at 3:55PM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4252003

Razor42 - the pirates won't crack the product DRM - they will bypass the encryption in Daz Studio.

I love you guys, but vendors are delusional in thinking that piracy = lost sales. The people who download pirated content never had any intention of paying for the products, at ANY price.

However, not doing anything isn't the answer. Really there has to be a compromise between ease of use and the protection of assets. A lot of good vendors have left the industry because nothing was done to protect their work, and that is more of a loss than anything else.

It is obvious that DAZ's long-term goal is customer lock-in with a subscription model and/or renting 3d assets.

How would that work when most of the products in are vendor owned? DAZ, rendo, and RDNA are brokerages who deal with multiple vendors with multiple products with multiple prices. Products have one or more owners with different partner splits. It would be a nightmare to set up and maintain and is basically unworkable unless they plan to buy out every single product in the store. A brokerage is not like a music service where they deal with a few owners of the content for their libraries, so it's highly doubtful they could pull off any type of subscription service. They get their money from their content sales, that's why the application is free and unlocked so that anyone can create DS content for support of their base figures for their own use, provide freebies, or broker anywhere including DAZ. Having lots of content available is why a lock out of anyone wouldn't make sense.

The people that made DAZ great (and Steve Kondris) no longer work at DAZ.

There are some people that would strongly disagree. DAZ is in a MUCH better financial state than with the old management. Many vendors will tell you their incomes increased under the new management.

The new owners are looking for steady income streams - which CAN NOT be done with DAZ's current sales "structure". This is simple business economics.

Can you prove that? DAZ has shown that they can add new features including iray, get more customers, and offer their program for free because of their current sale structure. And they've done that for years. They can prove that with their sales and adoption of their content.

Coding-wise, it is a very short step from using DRM content to requiring DRM content. Anyone want to take bets on the next version of genesis (24 months out) being "DAZ-Connect"-only?

Connect isn't solely encryption so if it's easier for new users to install and use the content, I don't see that as a bad thing. Besides all the genesis content is being offered as DAZ connect now.

ssgbryan posted at 4:12PM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4252003

Razor42 - the pirates won't crack the product DRM - they will bypass the encryption in Daz Studio.

I love you guys, but vendors are delusional in thinking that piracy = lost sales. The people who download pirated content never had any intention of paying for the products, at ANY price.

It is obvious that DAZ's long-term goal is customer lock-in with a subscription model and/or renting 3d assets. The people that made DAZ great (and Steve Kondris) no longer work at DAZ. The new owners are looking for steady income streams - which CAN NOT be done with DAZ's current sales "structure". This is simple business economics.

Coding-wise, it is a very short step from using DRM content to requiring DRM content. Anyone want to take bets on the next version of genesis (24 months out) being "DAZ-Connect"-only?

Thanks for saying what I have been thinking Sarge

I don't care how many times I try to tell people, Pirates DONT plan on buying your stuff! Actually, MOST pirates of 3D stuff, that I have talked to online, at least, DONT even USE the stuff they pirate!

I bought a hard drive off a guy a little while ago. It was Filled to bursting with Pirated stuff. I deleted a bunch of it, as I really couldn't use it. TONS of Music Top 40 rubbish and rap, plus software I will never use and have no need of. The guy hadn't even accessed most of the files, nor did he even know how to use the software.

I'm NOT advocating piracy, but 1 pirated download does NOT equal 1 lost sale.

I am an artist and don't like to see my stuff stolen, but spending money and energy to prevent theft from people I was NEVER going to make any money from is pointless.

@Razor - I just forgot to say thanks for the great discussion. It has been great for me to help try to understand your point of view, and the reasoning behind it. I hope I have been able to convey information that is equally helpful on your end.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

@Dustrider Likewise mate, I guess what a lot of people need to appreciate, myself included, is we do live in a world of greys and nothing is really just black and white. Somewhere between for and against is likely to the compromise that works for most.

ssgbryan posted at 11:23AM Sat, 30 January 2016 - #4252003

Razor42 - the pirates won't crack the product DRM - they will bypass the encryption in Daz Studio.

I love you guys, but vendors are delusional in thinking that piracy = lost sales. The people who download pirated content never had any intention of paying for the products, at ANY price.

It is obvious that DAZ's long-term goal is customer lock-in with a subscription model and/or renting 3d assets. The people that made DAZ great (and Steve Kondris) no longer work at DAZ. The new owners are looking for steady income streams - which CAN NOT be done with DAZ's current sales "structure". This is simple business economics.

Coding-wise, it is a very short step from using DRM content to requiring DRM content. Anyone want to take bets on the next version of genesis (24 months out) being "DAZ-Connect"-only?

Well thanks for your thoughts on the subject ssgbryan,

The funny thing is a good 75% of my comments on this thread relate to the fact that piracy is more than just a monetary loss or lost sales.

Bypassing the encryption is time consuming and as about as efficient for the end receiver as watching the new star wars movie that someone recorded on their mobile phone in the back row of a cinema while eating a bucket of popcorn. As important as what is there, is what is not there.

It is obvious that DAZ's long-term goal is customer lock-in with a subscription model and/or renting 3d assets.

Well that may be obvious to yourself, but I've never actually seen a business model fleshed out for this speculation, that would give any indication that it would be advantageous for Daz 3D to adopt it. But since it's pure speculation I guess that's just a a minor detail. May, may not, Que sera. But in my own opinion it's up there with the likelihood of the construction of a Death Star by Daz3D.

Likewise with the coding wise scenario. The difference between Mein Kampf and the Bible is just the letters are arranged differently. Both are books, but definitely both don't equate to the same thing in any real consideration.

Also just to clarify Daz Connect isn't Daz Encryption, it's a new version of DIM built into DS. You can use Daz Connect without encrypted files also.

DustRider posted at 3:01PM Sat, 30 January 2016 - #4251994

LPR001 posted at 11:00AM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251922

That was hard going. Well done Ivy, Razor & DustRider

No problem Johnny! Isn't that the way adult discussions are supposed to work?

Yes DustRider it is and your posts have always been that way. Once I see comments like RE Daz staff and vendors "Weight their words their paycheck depends on it" in order to bolster one's own opinion I am at times left pondering just how adult some of these discussions really are. Thankfully 99.9% of the members would not even entertain the thought to go down that insulting path and can skim past this without it even being a blip on their radar.

I am impressed with how this discussion is heading now and how it is being handled from both sides of the divide. Truth is it is the same detail members have been trying to relay all along just with a much better delivery, more respect and this does open the door to discussions that will cover far more ground and be beneficial to all.

It is also understandable that typing at 450 wpm with steam coming out the ears will lead to mistakes being made as I have tried it myself. As a moderator I kind of noticed since the announcement there are some unhappy campers and I get it, I really do. If we can achieve a balance somewhere between "Gone With The Wind" and "Terminator" I think we would be onto something.

Thank you all :-)

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

I see a lot of folks defending DAZ, that is fine. But there is absolutely no reason what so ever to add DAZ controlled encryption to model you have purchased and placed on your hard drive unless they intend on forcing you to pay repeatedly to use the model..you purchased. period That is why they do that

good news then is, I will be spending money here and not there.

Hi father,

I'm not sure how they can force you or anyone to pay repeatedly for anything without changing the EULA. I suspect if they were to change the EULA to allow what you're suggesting, you wouldn't be the only one to find somewhere else to purchase their content. In fact Daz have already announced that a free decrypter utility would be held with an Escrow company to be released at the time of their demise "or is unwilling to continue offering this as a free service" and are in the process of updating the EULA to reflect that.

But of course you are free to spend your money wherever it brings you the most joy. :)

You miss the point, you only encrypt an item ON their hard drive if you intend on controlling it's use and charging a subscription for it's use. There is no other reason to do it. and they say well the EULA stops it, no the company can change the EULA at will. it is not binding.

father1776 posted at 9:09PM Sun, 31 January 2016 - #4252442

You miss the point, you only encrypt an item ON their hard drive if you intend on controlling it's use and charging a subscription for it's use. There is no other reason to do it. and they say well the EULA stops it, no the company can change the EULA at will. it is not binding.

Except there's not encrypting on the hard drive, it unencrypts it so you can use it in the program. And once you get it on your machine, it's there. Also since it's a brokerage that sells other vendors' products not their own, it would be practically impossible to offer subscription services when you have products owned by multiple vendors with different percentages of payouts, bundles, etc. But these arguments have been disputed now hundreds of times; I think people are spending more time jumping to conclusions and being upset when they don't truly understand how everything, including brokerages, work.

You miss the point, you only encrypt an item ON their hard drive if you intend on controlling it's use and charging a subscription for it's use. There is no other reason to do it. and they say well the EULA stops it, no the company can change the EULA at will. it is not binding.

Actually there are a few issues with this statement.

Companies can not change the terms of sale after a sale retroactively. So what that means is that if you purchase an item under a specific licensing agreement. Any changes to the licence agreement only apply to new items sold under the new agreement. An EULA is in effect a contract that is agreed on by both parties and is protected by law. So in effect an End User License Agreement is binding. (1) (2)

You miss the point, you only encrypt an item ON their hard drive if you intend on controlling its use and charging a subscription for it's use.

This is speculation and I can point to dozens of incidences of encryption that haven't led to the situation you're describing. Like the fact that this webpage is using encryption on your hard drive. Even in a content scenario like games on Steam. (3)

I feel you may have missed the point, if you purchase an encrypted product from Daz 3D you will have made a contract with Daz 3D under the EULA for it's usage, changing the terms after the fact to retroactive purchases would leave them open to legal recourse. Any new Eula conditions are not valid until you agree to them. The EULA currently in place does not allow for the situation you are describing.

What your suggesting is the equivalent to Apple saying you know all those $1.99 song you bought? We decided that we are going to change our terms and now charge you $4.99 for each one retroactively, you have bought 1500 songs in the past. So here is your bill for $4500 dollars.

It's not only unethical it would be a breach of contract. (4)

I don't see how DAZ's goal can be vendor lock in. It is chiefly a brokerage for other vendors to start with. Are they trying to give their PA's a leg up on others? Pretty obviously since that's what they've been doing for a while. But that's a whole lot different from trying to lock down their ecosystem.

I take their statements at face value. Of course there is going to be connect only content, what would be the point of the whole goat-dance anyway? But at this point, in February all they've put out are trial balloons - the vast majority of new content is still DIM, and what they've sold as connect only has either been given away, or sold at next to nothing.

In hindsight what they probably should have done is implement connect without the DRM to get people used to it, then introduced the DRM later down the road. As it stands, the connect roll out is compromised even if they drop the encryption.

In any case, I'm certainly not through with using DAZ, I like it. I am on the fence about encrypted products, but as long as a steady stream of encrypted comes out I'll deal with that issue later. So those of you with the "sky is falling" complex, please, it is getting old. If you don't want encrypted content, don't buy it. That really is the only thing that will effect the situation.

diogenese19348 posted at 4:00PM Tue, 02 February 2016 - #4252747

So those of you with the "sky is falling" complex, please, it is getting old. If you don't want encrypted content, don't buy it. That really is the only thing that will effect the situation.

What is getting old is people saying that the sky isn't falling when clearly it has at least dropped a few yards and continues a downward direction.

It doesn't hurt to keep ones eyes open and pay attention because things don't seem to be getting better.

A friend of mine told me that same rot back when I said our local market is collapsing. "It's getting old, it's getting old."

Well, more and more of us aren't working and he's had to sell his nice car for a piece of junk, move out of his nice condo. Now he's writing letters to the senator complaining about the sky that he said wasn't falling a few years back.

My advice is... Go ahead and toss an uninstalled copy of Daz4.9 on the hard drive for safe keeping. Maybe you'll use it, maybe you won't. Don't want encrypted software, don't buy it AND let them know WHY you aren't buying it. We'll all see whether the sky is actually falling or not eventually.

tsarist posted at 3:16PM Tue, 02 February 2016 - #4252770

diogenese19348 posted at 4:00PM Tue, 02 February 2016 - #4252747

So those of you with the "sky is falling" complex, please, it is getting old. If you don't want encrypted content, don't buy it. That really is the only thing that will effect the situation.

What is getting old is people saying that the sky isn't falling when clearly it has at least dropped a few yards and continues a downward direction.

It doesn't hurt to keep ones eyes open and pay attention because things don't seem to be getting better.

A friend of mine told me that same rot back when I said our local market is collapsing. "It's getting old, it's getting old."

Well, more and more of us aren't working and he's had to sell his nice car for a piece of junk, move out of his nice condo. Now he's writing letters to the senator complaining about the sky that he said wasn't falling a few years back.

My advice is... Go ahead and toss an uninstalled copy of Daz4.9 on the hard drive for safe keeping. Maybe you'll use it, maybe you won't. Don't want encrypted software, don't buy it AND let them know WHY you aren't buying it. We'll all see whether the sky is actually falling or not eventually.

Personally I don't think in this case the sky is falling, but that's beside the point. Your suggestions about not buying encrypted software is the same one I was making. You can keep a copy of 4.8 around, I did, but frankly there isn't anything in 4.9 that is a problem as long as you don't use connect. Telling DAZ why you're not buying encrypted doesn't matter, they don't care, they will care if people don't buy it.

My point is that running around saying "the sky is falling" is not going to stop the sky from falling if it is. Make your preparations for it, but don't go annoying everybody else who isn't. If DAZ really has made up their minds to screw everybody, which I don't think they have, how is screaming on the forums going to help? Any more than it did here about another issue.

diogenese19348 posted at 12:16PM Wed, 03 February 2016 - #4252747

I don't see how DAZ's goal can be vendor lock in. It is chiefly a brokerage for other vendors to start with. Are they trying to give their PA's a leg up on others? Pretty obviously since that's what they've been doing for a while. But that's a whole lot different from trying to lock down their ecosystem.

I take their statements at face value. Of course there is going to be connect only content, what would be the point of the whole goat-dance anyway? But at this point, in February all they've put out are trial balloons - the vast majority of new content is still DIM, and what they've sold as connect only has either been given away, or sold at next to nothing.

In hindsight what they probably should have done is implement connect without the DRM to get people used to it, then introduced the DRM later down the road. As it stands, the connect roll out is compromised even if they drop the encryption.

In any case, I'm certainly not through with using DAZ, I like it. I am on the fence about encrypted products, but as long as a steady stream of encrypted comes out I'll deal with that issue later. So those of you with the "sky is falling" complex, please, it is getting old. If you don't want encrypted content, don't buy it. That really is the only thing that will effect the situation.

Amen. Well said...and exactly what I was thinking ;).

Laurie

I just decided all my content will be manually installed. I got tired of DAZ's slipshod way of installing stuff all over the place. I refuse to buy any DAZ Connect only content.

wheatpenny posted at 9:06PM Wed, 03 February 2016 - #4250619

As of right now, Daz is saying that all their previous content will continue to be available as non-encrypted and they have no plans to make new content connect-only, so I have no complaint about the new setup. If that should ever change then complaints will be justified IMO, but until and unless that happens, Daz Connect should present no problems.

From the Daz Connect FAQ, Q #5: "Are All Products Daz Connect Ready"

"New products may begin to be offered through Daz Connect only. This will be determined on a product by product basis."

...forsaken daughter is watching you.

[Intel Xeon 5660 Hyperthreading 6 core CPU, 24GB GSkill Ripjaws 1333 DDR3 Tri Channel RAM, Nvidia Titan-X GPU with 12GB GDDR5 & 3072 cores, 1 x AData 240 GB SSD (boot) + 1 x 2TB HDD, EGVA 850 G5 PSU Antec P-193 with more fans than Justin Bieber.]

If one were seeking to completely obliterate all files relating to an old version of DS in order to give 4.9 the very best chance at working as planned out of the box, in addition to uninstalling DS 4.8, DIM and content manager, what else would one need to do.

I thought I had wiped out my old libraries but with the new install I just see all that content only broken.

If you want to up your content game, get schooled to be a pro with Sixus1 Mentoring today!

Tony_Stark posted at 3:41PM Fri, 05 February 2016 - #4252981

I just decided all my content will be manually installed. I got tired of DAZ's slipshod way of installing stuff all over the place. I refuse to buy any DAZ Connect only content.

I don't plan on BUYING any Daz Connect only content, but I did pick up a freebie, that's available this week. I hope they don't start offering more freebies that are Daz Connect only

@Greybro Your comic series looks great. I think I will have to revisit that.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

poisinivy posted at 12:33AM Tue, 09 February 2016 - #4251633

Animation was the only reason I loved using daz studio. though it has a some draw backs now. So I'm going to try poser again.. it has more features like physics & built in dynamic controls for animation plus all my older FX content i have still works in poser 2012 so I guessing it will with poser 11 maybe not until i try it..

Though you got to admit , It seems every time Daz comes out with a new software version upgrade, some how they manage break compatible with last copies of their software. even some content. . they pretty must totally broke compatibility with poser and carrera now. I don;t see how that is for the better But some how they do. I dunno how daz 4.9 works with Iclone now either because i don't have iclone . But I assume Daz it broke compatibility with iclone the same as poser & carrera .

I got some great in programming fx tools like Nerds fire & smoke, and Nerds wave & Dusty trail tool. Practical FX etc they all use to work great in Daz still. but not anymore. Also I've been hearing & seeing some really good results with superfly That has intrigued me to try using poser again. I have PP2012 when i get paid this Friday I'm gonna use my 60% upgrade coupon & update to poser 11.

I have used DS Carrara iClone for animation and recently got on board Poser 11. I have to say Poser meets most of my intermediate-pro character animation needs. Poser 11 got serious face lift, still some aging UI issues that can be easily fixed (namely animation UI)

Can't argue with Poser's soft body implementation and many soft cloth options - including finer conforming clothing control. Poser's Bullet 'live' mode is just amazing, especially after the Carrara Bullet battlefield experience!

Poser, even 2 years ago, is way ahead in physics department. Today iClone is close but not there, maybe another year. Carrara is a could've been. DS, who knows.

If DS (5.0?) suddenly grow some Physics muscles... Physics as in soft body on figures + rigid body... live collision... and maybe some volumetric particles!! I will still likely go back to DS as the main tool!

I do miss DS's Animate2 instant NLA clip preview... And definitely the original Puppeteer... DS has great grouping tool and good ZBrush support too which helps!

I want to animate characters... If I had to choose I always choose dynamics, and better UI.

From a content creator perspective... Physics = another potential-rich category of product line!

Hint hint...

Forum: DAZ|Studio

Subject: Daz 4.9 is officially released!!.