ghostship2 opened this issue on Jan 30, 2016 · 32 posts
ghostship2 posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 5:33 PM
Is there a way to make a primitive square prop point at the camera from one of it's faces instead of the edge? I'm trying to make a candle with a burning flame and want the flame to be a video file on a square and need the face pointing at the camera even if the camera moves. I've seen this done in video games and thought it would be an easy way to get a decent looking flame. The squares in the primitive folder all have their origins set to one edge and not a face. I can't immediately see how to change the origin in Poser.
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EldritchCellar posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 7:10 PM
Point at is controlled by the end point (rather than its center or origin) of an object. It's an invisible line from the end point to whatever you are pointing at.
You can only accurately adjust the end point in a prop if the prop is at default 100% scale. If you've scaled the prop export it (all options unchecked) and reimport (ditto) and your modified scales will be the default 100%.
With the joint editor and the translate tool and in an orthographic view (for planes use cartoon shaded lined) grab the end point and move it to the front/ Z of the center point (or origin) and numerically match the coordinates in the X and Y axis so that it's a nice straight line from origin to end. Of course you want the center itself to be exactly centered within the plane too. Memorize (parameters palette, little triangle top right, memorize) after you've adjusted, otherwise these adjustments won't be saved if you decide to add the prop to the library. Now, when you point your plane at the camera it will rotate/ follow similar to how a figure's eye does.
See illustration of eye model I've made (side view), I'm in the middle of a long IDL render so I can't make any demo images, but same principle...
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EldritchCellar posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 7:17 PM
If you wait til late tonight I'll add a link to a one sided square .pp2 with it's origin and end point adjusted accurately so that it points at things properly. Your call.
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WandW posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 7:30 PM
I tried using the joint editor to put both the center and the end point in the center of the Primitive square, and also tried parenting the square to a ball Primitive and pointed it at the camera. Both of there worked to keep the face of the square pointed at the camera. However, in both cases, as the camera orbits the square, the square precesses; that is, it rotates around the line between the center and the camera...
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ghostship2 posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 7:45 PM
EldritchCellar posted at 6:39PM Sat, 30 January 2016 - #4252241
If you wait til late tonight I'll add a link to a one sided square .pp2 with it's origin and end point adjusted accurately so that it points at things properly. Your call.
I have never used the joint editor. If it is not a huge amount of work I would appreciate the help! I've been using Poser for 15 + years but there are some things I just skipped over. Animation, joint editor, dynamic cloth, etc.
If it gets too complicated and takes too much of your time, don't do it. I'll figure something out.
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EldritchCellar posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 7:46 PM
I'll upload the prop later tonight to my google drive with a link.
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EldritchCellar posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 7:57 PM
I hope you're not telling me that it can't be done WandW. I have to disagree. And you are doing something wrong if you can't manage to get a sphere to rotate properly with point at, which behaves better in that regard (flat planes have a tendency to tumble with aggressive camera movement). I think every figure creator/rigger would have to disagree in that case.
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EldritchCellar posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 8:13 PM
I just did have an interesting idea/solution to that plane tumbling issue though... I'll do some tests and add it to the uploaded prop (it will actually be a 2 boned .cr2) tonight.
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EldritchCellar posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 12:04 AM
Well, couldn't solve the minor tumbling issue (tried forcing limits on z and x rotations, square as body part in a 2 part figure, and a couple other things) but I think I'm maybe being a little over meticulous here because I've seen that kind of behavior in textured planes for plants/flowers, smoke, and such in various games. Anyway, it's a one sided square prop that "points at"... just load the square and... you know. You might want to open the joint editor and see what I did with the end point just for curiosities sake.
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ghostship2 posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 12:28 AM
EldritchCellar posted at 11:27PM Sat, 30 January 2016 - #4252290
Well, couldn't solve the minor tumbling issue (tried forcing limits on z and x rotations, square as body part in a 2 part figure, and a couple other things) but I think I'm maybe being a little over meticulous here because I've seen that kind of behavior in textured planes for plants/flowers, smoke, and such in various games. Anyway, it's a one sided square prop that "points at"... just load the square and... you know. You might want to open the joint editor and see what I did with the end point just for curiosities sake.
Thanks so much! I will take a look at this in the morning as it's late for me here.
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EldritchCellar posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 12:40 AM
Shameless self promo sneak peek.
A couple of promo images for my new freebie, Hands for Missus.
Conforming left and right hands for my Missus figure. Seperate figures, suitable as add ons or as stand alones. Each has ERC grasp, spread, and thumb spread controls, nails long morph, and a claws geometry switching dial. DL will include the typical 3 texture sets and material files.
These add on/figure/conformers will be available by monday at my ShareCG gallery. Thanks for looking...
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EldritchCellar posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 12:41 AM
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3DFineries posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 7:19 AM
Why not just use an invisible ball primitive, place it where you want the camera to continually point & then go from there?
Have a creative day!
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ghostship2 posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 9:28 AM
3DFineries posted at 8:20AM Sun, 31 January 2016 - #4252330
Why not just use an invisible ball primitive, place it where you want the camera to continually point & then go from there?
Hey Just woke up. That is a thought. I have not tried the new prop that EldritchCellar made for me yet so I need to give that a try. Last night I made a test animation with a person walking forward and I wanted the camera to go along with them. I found that using one of the parented cameras (face, pose) wasn't a good idea as the camera bobbed up and down with the figures movement. What I did to fix the problem was use the Main camera and parent that to a sphere that was placed below the moving figure and moved along at the same rate. Kind of the same thing you are suggesting. The issue with the candle flame thing is I want the camera to move around and need the flame to point at the camera so I'm not looking at it on it's side.
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WandW posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 11:14 AM
EldritchCellar posted at 12:10PM Sun, 31 January 2016 - #4252255
I hope you're not telling me that it can't be done WandW. I have to disagree. ...
I don't know enough to say that it can't be done; I'm only stating what I observed. 
I had tried parenting to an invisible ball primitive above; I didn't note that it was invisible, but I don't think that visibility would affect its behavior...
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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
WandW posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 11:34 AM
I have something that sort of works; parent the default square to the ball primitive, point the ball towards the camera, adjust it and the square to their desired location/orientation, and then set the square to point at the bottom camera, and it seems to stay square. 
However, it ends up not pointing fully at the camera if the camera height is changed...
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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
kerwin posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 12:21 PM
Nice mechanical sculpts. Very economical. ;)
-K
EldritchCellar posted at 10:20AM Sun, 31 January 2016 - #4252294
EldritchCellar posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 12:29 PM
Thanks Kerwin.
...I'm not sure why everyone is still going on about that point at problem. Rest assured that I attempted every method (obvious and obscure, including deleting influence channels in a 2 boned sphere/plane .cr2, brute force limits written into the .pp2, basic parenting to a sphere, etc.) The prop I uploaded is the best solution. Fin. ;)
...now watch PhilC pop in with "actually the best solution..." :D
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EldritchCellar posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 12:46 PM
Laterly, perhaps point at isn't the best way to do this in the first place. Have you ever considered 2 copies of the square intersecting one another, one facing forward and one sideways so that when the camera rotates it will always be seeing at least a portion of the flame? (an X or + configuration). Not sure how significant the blind spot would be... it would depend on emphasis of focus and movement of the camera. Just a thought.
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ghostship2 posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 3:59 PM
EldritchCellar posted at 2:58PM Sun, 31 January 2016 - #4252385
Laterly, perhaps point at isn't the best way to do this in the first place. Have you ever considered 2 copies of the square intersecting one another, one facing forward and one sideways so that when the camera rotates it will always be seeing at least a portion of the flame? (an X or + configuration). Not sure how significant the blind spot would be... it would depend on emphasis of focus and movement of the camera. Just a thought.
That is another good suggestion and one that I think I've seen used in video games as well.
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WandW posted Mon, 01 February 2016 at 7:09 AM
EldritchCellar posted at 7:57AM Mon, 01 February 2016 - #4252380
Thanks Kerwin.
...I'm not sure why everyone is still going on about that point at problem. Rest assured that I attempted every method (obvious and obscure, including deleting influence channels in a 2 boned sphere/plane .cr2, brute force limits written into the .pp2, basic parenting to a sphere, etc.) The prop I uploaded is the best solution. Fin. ;)
It still precesses when the camera is orbited. This seems to be a property of the Point To Command, as a figure will also precess of the body is pointed at the camera. It does this in Poser 7, as well as in Poser 11, so if it is a bug, it is a very old one.
I've seen intersecting planes used on billboard trees, and it does work...
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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
EldritchCellar posted Mon, 01 February 2016 at 4:30 PM
I'll leave the link for that prop active, I still think having that set up might be useful to someone.
Sometimes point at behaves more naturally at values less than 1.00, especially for eyes. I need to test point at behaviors in Carrara and Modo and see how much different it is than Poser. Maybe more built in constraint options.
Eventually I plan on gathering all of my forum post freebies together into a grab bag bundle and posting it exclusively here at the rendo freestuff. While I'm not crazy over rendo freestuff (prefer ShareCG), seems only fitting being that it's their birthplace.
...hopefully rendo doesn't undergo another forum overhaul that orphans yet more links, images, and attachments.
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uncle808us posted Tue, 21 March 2017 at 10:49 AM
I can see the origin but I can not find the X Y Z knobs to change the origin? Where are they???
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EldritchCellar posted Tue, 21 March 2017 at 3:20 PM
Psst. "Joint Editor"
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uncle808us posted Tue, 21 March 2017 at 6:27 PM
Pssst. Tried that to hard to get accurate! Where are the XYZ dials I've seen them before in other items.
MacBook Pro OSX El Capitan Ver 10.11.6
oldguy4440 posted Mon, 27 March 2017 at 7:22 AM
Can't get more accurate than numerical input,
uncle808us posted Mon, 27 March 2017 at 10:35 AM
OK I want the origin in the center of the hat not the global center so how do I do that from the joint editor???? Without seeing the dials so I can use them to move the origin.
MacBook Pro OSX El Capitan Ver 10.11.6
uncle808us posted Mon, 27 March 2017 at 11:21 AM
)If I move the origins with the (circle dot inside) indicator to the center of the hat. It still rotates from the global center. This only happens with the .dae import not .obj or .fbx. They import with the origin at the place it was put in the modeling software.
MacBook Pro OSX El Capitan Ver 10.11.6
oldguy4440 posted Fri, 31 March 2017 at 5:39 PM
Click display origin in the props properties window; open the joint editor: move the GREEN crosshair to the point that you want the prop to rotate from; use front, top, and a side view to rough it in; use the numerical boxes in the joint editor to fine tune. Make sure that the red crosshair is also aligned with the point of rotation, not on the point of rotation but aligned with it
emangl posted Wed, 07 December 2022 at 8:58 AM
You can only accurately adjust the end point in a prop if the prop is at default 100% scale.
big thanks :-) almost got crazy why i cannot change - had it to 2% scale... 90minutes of life lost, you saved me :-)
moogal posted Mon, 12 December 2022 at 12:24 PM
Love to have that billboard prop. I tried to do the same thing with point-at years ago with the same results and gave up.
Would be useful for flames, smoke, foliage, crowds, etc... (Point-at/maintain X/Y/Z angle relative to camera plane should have been built in years ago...)
Also, you might be surprised how realistic billboards can be when they are normal mapped.
https://www.blendernation.com/2017/03/03/fake-large-scale-forest-blender/
primorge posted Mon, 12 December 2022 at 1:31 PM
This is Eldritchcellar. I cringe when I read this thread... I've learned quite a bit since then. I don't have that prop any more, it went down in flames with my last computer. Looking through what I was trying to do there I'm still not quite sure I can stop the tumbling behavior but there's a couple rigging/dial ideas that occur to me that escaped me back then. And I agree, an easy automated solution would be handy. I might run through some force limits point at behaviors again at some future point. I have a couple ideas about parenting and mesh shapes in tandem. Who knows, caught up in other diversions for a while I think... Would be interesting if someone came up with something.Love to have that billboard prop. I tried to do the same thing with point-at years ago with the same results and gave up.
Would be useful for flames, smoke, foliage, crowds, etc... (Point-at/maintain X/Y/Z angle relative to camera plane should have been built in years ago...)
Also, you might be surprised how realistic billboards can be when they are normal mapped.
https://www.blendernation.com/2017/03/03/fake-large-scale-forest-blender/
