The future of Poser's online community is up in the air with the recent announcement of the merger of RDNA and Daz. Which begs the question, is there a need for someone to step in to fill the void?

I'm not fully connected to the community these days. I used to run the marketing for Poser Addicts for about 1.5 years, but that was a couple years back. Even then, Daz's decision to create their next gen Genesis figures independent of Poser support was leaving Poser users in a tough spot. No matter what people had to say good or bad, the figures from Daz had been the dominant figures in the industry for more than a decade and continue to be so.

A number of people have attempted to challenge the dominance of Daz’s figures, with the intent to provide better options for Poser. Few have shown any staying power and none have captured the volume of fans that Mike and Vicky command. Some of those reasons are obvious to me, others not so clear. The overall attractiveness of the Daz people is broadly, if not universally, appealing. The quantity of supporting content, and content makers, is plentiful. Many of the newer figures can’t even compete with the Generation 4, Poser-compatible Daz figures. It’s been really frustrating for the Poser community overall.

So now, I have two questions for the Poser fanbase.

1. Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?

2. Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?

I’ve been a dedicated Poser user since Fractal Design Poser. I’m one of those stubbornly still using M4/V4, and I’m becoming increasingly frustrated by the direction of the industry. I have some ideas, but I can’t commit to them without finding out if the need is there. Please help me get the word out so I can get as many answers as possible to these questions, and if you want to know more about what I have in mind, message me for more info.

The existing Poser marketplaces seem to have trouble finding enough Poser-using content shoppers already, these days. More content options can only be a good thing, but it sort of looks from here (with my admittedly limited observation of the matter) like another marketplace could easily find itself struggling.

My understanding is that Poser itself has an adequate user base and is not in crisis. Poser content marketplaces are having difficulties, but that's not the same as Poser itself. As far as the actual number of Poser users goes, only Smith Micro could address that question, and they've never jumped in with answers when that question has come up previously on the forums.

My current assumption is that the Poser users who formerly bought the most content have been drawn away to D|S in large numbers. Those of us who remain with Poser don't shop for stuff as much or as often as the users who have quit Poser to favor Daz. Poser has been making it easier for us to build our own new content and to convert older content for use with more figures, cutting down on the need to buy content. That's just me, guessing about stuff, though.

Your second question sounds like you're maybe proposing a new way of doing something or other, but I'm not sure what that is...?

Speaking for myself, I primarily use the community-built, free and open-source Antonia figure, for which I create my own content. I'm a longtime, fairly skilled, fairly heavy Poser user, but I rarely buy content. Being a Poser user isn't really the same thing as being a Poser content shopper.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

1. Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?

Think there is enough Poser users. But I think you should try to ask yourself the same question a bit differently. Is it possible to make a new marketplace which can compete with the current ones? If you follow in the path or simply copy the already existing places there is most likely not. But if you can make a place which improve on the things that current users are not happy about with the current ones, will you have a chance?

2. Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?

Not really sure what you mean by this, or at least i think it will be difficult to give you any good feedback with so few details. If you refer to if Poser is ready for new figures? I would say yes, I think for people making figures with the intend of competing with the current ones like V4, M4, Genesis etc. have a hard time, but if they could convince vendors or content creators to make stuff for them, they could have a very good chance of being popular. A way to do this or at least consider could be to offer this figure free of charge to the content creators and vendors, and if its a good model there is a chance they will start making content for it and therefore do the job or help make the character popular. But i think one of the big problems for character creators is that, they release a figure. But no one owns it or a able to make content for it, unless they buy it. But a vendor might not buy the figure for varies reasons. Which might not be very different from others customers, meaning I think the main reason a vendor would invest in a character is if they like it themself, and as a result of that will then make content for it. But it could also be for simply creating content for them, but if the figure is not popular enough it of course is not that attractive, so they won't buy it. So i think creating characters is a bit of a gamble, but one which can have a huge value if you can make it popular. So maybe an idea of simply offering it for free to vendors, meaning contacting varies ones and ask if they want it, might actually work.

I'm not sure why people feel the need to say Poser's future is up in the air. Poser isn't going anywhere any time soon. Assuming that we Poser users are jumping is ship in large numbers is pure speculation at best. As far as figures is concerned, Project E is well on it's way to having a large following since Erogenesis has announced he's going to release it to the community. Project E, imho, is going to be the figure to fill the void we are all feeling. She bends fantastically and Erogenesis is doing everything he can to make sure that when she's released, she is released with minimal to no issues experienced with other figures who have vied to become the next big figure.

Have a creative day!

********

My Lil' Store

I agree. I don't think Poser users are jumping ship. I believe the content creators are following the money, nothing more. And sites aligning themselves with one or the other software is bringing about a knee jerk reaction by a lot of folks. I am seeing a lot of regulars from RDNA in other forums...

If you want to really find out what these people are feeling and what they are thinking about, go to the forums they are running to. Checking out some the other threads may give you a clue as to where they are going. I myself have started hanging out at HiveWire. I am in here less and less. I have one thread in here I am monitoring but mostly I will be lurking from now on. Posts like this from me will be rare.

If I had a nickle for ever time a woman told me to get lost, I could buy Manhattan.

I actually do not worry for that poser will loose a stable marketplace. Com-pairing it with DS , Ds still has a loong way to go to be able to offer what poser does offer. Most Artists make Rigging and Boning In poser as it is almost impossible to do it in DS. Figures are mostly done in Poser then just trans faired to DS so it is indispensable for a creator not to have it. there are to many scripts in poser that a Creator needs to make hes life simple . If you know poser then a figure will be boned in a matter of seconds ! Rigging is easy ! allot of features Poser has is not advertised but people who use it know about the hidden Features. just looking at the Import feature of .DAE a Poser user is not bound on specific stuff made for it . DS has a lock for DAE if you load this format then you will get a ripped off figure. Not working , Poser will get this Mesh fully boned and rigged on the Platform. Meaning that the user is not specifically bound on Cr2 format. for sure DS is bound on hes format in the major part causing the costumers to believe that there is no alternative way. if a creator uses a DEA format he gets allot of support as sample " Mixamo " a cup of cofee and your figure is ready and supported by Poser. Allot of Poser users do not only use there format and are not bound on a specific poser market , another reason why some Vendors or stores like Daz want to get rid of it. so a reason why Ds is very limited for support.

In Poser you are able to get fast rigging through third party support and it is the most tedious part of creation , one coud choose to do it in DAZ but he will not get any great results. Make it in Poser Load in DS then save it there Coded that is the way it goes.

Smaple : This figure took me 10 min In poser to get the basic rigging Impossible to get it into DS unless I save it as CR2 then Reload in DS to create a exclusive DS Product Allot of people are not aware of these facts and Creators do not reveal the secrets as they wanna sell there Products they will tell you on what high end program they need! DS is getting the market locking out poser to secure an income . When I look into DS it is not more then a Game in witch you can buy your little ad-dons , one might as well buy a good game and spend thousands of$ for new Updates. Poser has a potential to make your own creations , supports 100% other major formats and a good creator whether for DS or Poser is fully aware of it. so I sure have no worries that poser will fade away. Smith Micro does not depend on Markets like here or Daz they just look at the statistics of how many buy the Programm , and there are quiet many.

Additionally : if you use DS then you might notice a pretty large amount of figures that have Easy-pose features these are sold Exclusive for DS but well this code can only be done in CR2 , there are other features like Cinematic Dials I call them interactive Morphs for movements that have delays like this sort of Figure

Watch Sample

Something that Poser offers and allot of users Depend on most Movements shows are build in Interactive Dials So to say allot you see in Programs like DS were depending on the poser platform to be built.

I believe that a good modern character base is very important one along with having a lot of built-in morphs along with making it easy for vendors to provide a rich amount of char types for the base. Which is one of the main reasons why V4 / M4 became so popular. I like Poser a lot and I am always learning something new. To me Poser is not just a Barbie doll dress up program. Of course all of this becomes moot if the vendors don't support the new character platform, CONTENT IS KING. Why not find a way to have Gen 3 content work with this new Poser character platform, I believe that could solve a lot of the issue with vendors and artist.

The only people jumping ship are the vendors who are just following the money trail. I can't blame them either, I would in their shoes.

W10, Ryzen 5 1600x, 16Gb,RTX2060Super+GTX980, PP11, 11.3.740

---

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

First off, thanks to the user who pointed me toward Project E. She looks to have so much potential. I hope there are plans to make a male.

Second, the resurrected site would be the actual site brought back to life. It is currently open, and products are for sale, but no updating or marketing has occurred for more than three years, so it's more of an archive than anything else. I'm feeling out the community for interest in the site's revival.

Lastly, the biggest challenge most new figure creators face is creation in a vacuum, having to put all the work in initially alone, and then wanting to reap the rewards at some point. It's always going to be an investment process, but the process is almost always a dictatorship. I am toying with notions of open-source and crowdsourcing and creation by committee for a new figure pair. I will always insist that both a male and female are needed and ideally simultaneously.

It does seem that there's a difference between how Poser users feel and how Poser content buyers feel. I'm sure there's some overlap, but I'm not sure it overlaps enough to gamble on getting back into the creation business...

what the poser market seems to need right now is an unprecedented level of focused support for a (one) non daz figure/figure family. The hivewire ones have come a long way and seem to be viable at this point BUT they do have that hard-coded 'G' rating attached to them that is a bit of a sticking point for people wanting to make art in a 'grown ups' environment. I didn't say adult in this instance because it immediately brings to mind poser porn and that's not what I'm talking about. Just the treatment of poser subject matter as mature adults who are capable of witnessing and appreciating the full human form. Aritistic freedom not artificially limited by the design decisions of the figure with which we work. I'm very optimistic about project E, but I have been before and been disappointed by the support offered. I think at this point the key value content creators could add is more in supporting some of the better of whats available than adding further under supported figures to the ring.

That being said I do love the idea of different models of bringing content to market. Some sort of content creation collaborative could tap some of the best skills different people have to offer and get more content to market quicker in support of any particular figure. Some people can model, some can rig and some can texture to a pretty high level but far fewer can do all three at the same level. It would be cool if there was a structure to help tap different skillsets to bring content to market and reward each equitably for their contribution

Some use only one app but others use multiple apps.Just cause one doesn't just use Poser 100% of the time don't mean there using DAZ .they could be using unity ,unreal ,reallusion ,blender ,houdini ,autodesk etc etc.

If I made a Store it would be for all of CGI. If I made Characters it would be for all of CGI.

I don't know why any one would make there universe smaller.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?

No, it isn't - the Poser content of those PAs moving to Daz will be in the daz store, as will their future Poser-format releases. Daz has no problem with taking Poser content.

I believe there are at least 5, if not more, viable alternative Poser content marketplaces which cannot be mentioned in a Renderosity forum thread. They are surviving, with no sign of implosion yet.

Eternal Hobbyist

 

RHaseltine posted at 10:37AM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257703

since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?

No, it isn't - the Poser content of those PAs moving to Daz will be in the daz store, as will their future Poser-format releases. Daz has no problem with taking Poser content.

Which is a gamble for those PAs who try to sell Poser content there, because Daz's reputation in the community seems to be that of moving away from Poser. Unless they amp up promotion of this influx of Poser content, Poser users won't think Daz3D.com when they want new content.

vagabondallen posted at 12:01PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257860

RHaseltine posted at 10:37AM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257703

since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?

No, it isn't - the Poser content of those PAs moving to Daz will be in the daz store, as will their future Poser-format releases. Daz has no problem with taking Poser content.

Which is a gamble for those PAs who try to sell Poser content there, because Daz's reputation in the community seems to be that of moving away from Poser. Unless they amp up promotion of this influx of Poser content, Poser users won't think Daz3D.com when they want new content.

It's going to be a gamble for those vendors either way. Either sell your poser items on a site with more visibility, or go splinter off to a smaller site where most don't know the location, thus your sales are smaller and support is reduced even further. To be honest, they either should go to DAZ or to Rendo because all the other sites aren't going to have near the reach. Also customers will need to purchase those items, not fill up forums to show vendors that making Poser-oriented items are worth their time. Right now I think opening up yet more stores are going to hurt Poser vendors than moving items to stores that are already established.

_ " Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?" _

Not likely; Smith Design has dropped the ball both technically and in marketing. The price of admission to Daz is "free". That's a good price, and the provide at this point a superior product.

I use Poser at this point only because I have used Poser for so long, and there are old scenes and resources that are in Poser format. That's a legacy market; legacy markets can be milked but don't warrant new investment.

_ " Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?"_

Me, yes, but its not Poser or Daz; neither of which are up to the technical standards of Lightwave -- even Lightwave of years ago. More advanced applications long ago moved to lighter geometries, subdivision surfaces and a host of other "innovations" still unseen in Daz and Poser-verse.

Take instancing. Lots of folks are doing fantasy scenes . . . instancing technology has been around for years in applications like Lightwave -- and spectacularly in Eon's Vue products.

Still no instancing in Daz or Poser, so you're left with one shots and two shots. Look at the Poser galleries-- have you seen an army of Orcs?

So I think there's a place for a competitor to Daz; they've demonstrated that there's real money in selling content . . . and they are improving their technology.

But there's time for a competitor coming "from above" -- my pick would be Lightwave, but obviously Autodesk could do it, and has much more financial resources. Less obvious but possible players would be Eon (which seems to be heading in a different direction following purchase by Bentley), some bolt on to Blender (tricky because of open source issues with for profit material), Modo (pointing at a different market these days, but always had a keen marketing and community sense).

I am interested in your ideas but I honestly don't know where you are going to get any reliable feedback to your questions. Quite a few people have left the Renderosity forums and some no longer shop here. Many don't shop at Daz while others do but never visit the forums there. Of course the majority of Poser users don't visit the forum anyway and I guess the same is true for DS.

As ghostship2 has already stated a lot of vendors have followed the money which is to be expected, they want to make a living but it is not a good guide to how many are using Poser. My personal spend here is down to zero from around $300 a month but that has nothing to do with the vendors and I still use Poser on an almost daily basis. What money I do spend has been at Hivewire3D and RDNA although it begins to look as though it might just be Hivewire3D in future.

Would I buy more Poser content, if I like it and can use it, yes I would but I am not about to buy stuff purely because it is for Poser and someone claims Poser is in trouble.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

crocodilian posted at 6:08PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257897

Still no instancing in Daz or Poser, so you're left with one shots and two shots. Look at the Poser galleries-- have you seen an army of Orcs?

DAZ Studio has had instancing for a few years now.

Male_M3dia posted at 5:49PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257923

crocodilian posted at 6:08PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257897

Still no instancing in Daz or Poser, so you're left with one shots and two shots. Look at the Poser galleries-- have you seen an army of Orcs?

DAZ Studio has had instancing for a few years now.

Quite limited, but you're right Daz (sort of) does. Can't do morphs, can't alter surfaces . . . makes them of limited utility, but they are there.

Compare to the richness of Vue's Ecosystems . . . very basic. Have yet to see anyone do much of anything with them . . . though with some work, you can get something.

In any event my point remains: there's room for a competitor to Daz for two reasons

1. Daz is an increasingly closed, proprietary universe . . . and artists don't like that (see Eon's experience with encrypted content)
2. Better technologies are available

Besides instancing . .. think of a hobbyist application with native support for Zbrush. Or Octane-like cloud rendering at a consumer price.

So there's an opportunity, but I don't think that either Smith or their ecosystem are capable of taking advantage of it.

crocodilian posted at 8:25PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257939

Male_M3dia posted at 5:49PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257923

crocodilian posted at 6:08PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257897

Still no instancing in Daz or Poser, so you're left with one shots and two shots. Look at the Poser galleries-- have you seen an army of Orcs?

DAZ Studio has had instancing for a few years now.

Quite limited, but you're right Daz (sort of) does. Can't do morphs, can't alter surfaces . . . makes them of limited utility, but they are there.

Compare to the richness of Vue's Ecosystems . . . very basic. Have yet to see anyone do much of anything with them . . . though with some work, you can get something.

In any event my point remains: there's room for a competitor to Daz for two reasons

1. Daz is an increasingly closed, proprietary universe . . . and artists don't like that (see Eon's experience with encrypted content)
2. Better technologies are available

Besides instancing . .. think of a hobbyist application with native support for Zbrush. Or Octane-like cloud rendering at a consumer price.

So there's an opportunity, but I don't think that either Smith or their ecosystem are capable of taking advantage of it.

Beyond you attempting to change the argument once proven wrong (let's not do that), the fact is still DAZ Studio still has it. And there are products that do use it. However in this space, if people want more capability, they would move up into the more expensive applications like Lightwave, Maya, etc and they would be making their own content. Also it serves no purpose to turn yet another thread into an app war, so let's stick to what the OP wanted.. and that's where it's feasible to open another store.

I never got why there's such a thing as this app vs that app. Now if some ass hole could enforce a rule that you can only use one certain app. No ,just eliminate the enforcer. What's it take to have a successful Store ? That a easy answer.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Beyond you attempting to change the argument once proven wrong (let's not do that), the fact is still DAZ Studio still has it. And there are products that do use it. However in >this space, if people want more capability, they would move up into the more expensive applications like Lightwave, Maya, etc and they would be making their own content. >Also it serves no purpose to turn yet another thread into an app war, so let's stick to what the OP wanted.. and that's where it's feasible to open another store.

It has a very limited instancing, which means for practical purposes, it doesn't/

If you want to create an army of identically posed, oriented and textured Orcs, then Daz' feature is adequate. That's roughly the technology of a decade ago, and few have much use for that. It certainly is possible that a more useful instancing will come out of Daz/iRay's platform, but its not there yet. There are some third party plugins (Instances+) that add a small amount of functionality, but its still limited.

Meaning there's an opportunity for someone to deliver something useful.

RorrKonn posted at 8:21PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257958

I never got why there's such a thing as this app vs that app. Now if some ass hole could enforce a rule that you can only use one certain app. No ,just eliminate the enforcer. What's it take to have a successful Store ? That a easy answer.

What's it take to have a successful store?

Modern products for modern technology.

V4 is a decade old (V4 introduced 2006, 4.1 2007, 4.2 2008) . Smith Design has brought new figures to market since then (Allison, Kate, now Pauline), but vendor support for them is very thin, and hobbyist use is similarly thin.

Judging by the content here and and RDNA, Poser content vendors have, until recently, been living on V 4.2.

There are all kinds of advances in graphics technology since 2005, and folks, including hobbyists, will pay for "cool stuff".

But I doubt they'll continue to pay for 2006 for much longer.

_Modern products for modern technology.

No doubt ,No doubt ,but apparently it's rather difficult to get it.

I don't know if any web master can make a website that works on all browsers PC's ,Phones ,etc etc. that has flawless ebots ,searches ,all the store content filed correctly. and has a dark back ground. has the forums sub filed correctly. etc etc. There's not a website / store / forums any where that somethings not right about it.

People argue this point with me that's never even made a character ,but that's OK. but it doesn't change the fact that out of the 7+ billion people on this planet. only maybe 5 people on this planet could make Vickys = .So that makes getting the Modern Technology a bit difficult.

DAZ can be challenged but only by those willing to really work for it. Me ? I'm way to lazy for that challenge. PacMan gets the best of me ;)

I'm thinking Web Masters that can make flawless sites n CGI Artist that can challenge Vicky. Goes after a Wall Street / Hollywood paycheck not a Venders paycheck.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

There's no question that Poser and DS have their limitations. The thing is, I'm not wondering if there are better options for people who've learned to do more than change the color of a texture map in Photoshop. Given the niches both programs serve, is there still potential for vendors to serve the Poser hobbyist community? Have the two programs tried so hard to move into the broader 3D industry that they've lost the point-and-clickers altogether? I am reminded of other industries that at one time supported dozens of companies, but over time, saw the number of those companies dwindle as the bigger ones, the more successful ones bought out or pushed out the smaller ones. I'm starting to wonder if everything really began to change when Daz acquired Poser Pros...

vagabondallen posted at 12:58AM Mon, 29 February 2016 - #4258144

There's no question that Poser and DS have their limitations. The thing is, I'm not wondering if there are better options for people who've learned to do more than change the color of a texture map in Photoshop. Given the niches both programs serve, is there still potential for vendors to serve the Poser hobbyist community? Have the two programs tried so hard to move into the broader 3D industry that they've lost the point-and-clickers altogether? I am reminded of other industries that at one time supported dozens of companies, but over time, saw the number of those companies dwindle as the bigger ones, the more successful ones bought out or pushed out the smaller ones. I'm starting to wonder if everything really began to change when Daz acquired Poser Pros...

Every thing change with Genesis.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

In our little universe the majority of the users basically just want to load premade content, pose premade content and hit render to make a pretty picture, these people are also where most of the money comes from that's kept the marketplaces in business.

Now DAZ realized this years ago which is why their figures always have a lot of content available when they release a new figure, when it was the millennium series nobody challenged them, figures were made but had very little content, so they were allowed to "rule" the content side of things.

Now that they don't create Poser figures most of the money spenders have followed them and now buy DS native content, so any marketplace that stayed "Poser only" was always going to suffer, as will any new Poser only marketplace.

Still think there is a good chance of Project E adding some fuel to the fire, seems like a very well made character that can take own the Genesis(es) head on, if the promotional images are true, which I see no reason to believe they ain't. There will most likely be made a lot of content for that one, i think. At least i see it as an addition or maybe even a replacement for V4 :D

"So now, I have two questions for the Poser fanbase.

1.Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?" We do have Renderosity.

2.Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?" I believe so. It will take an extensive survey of the Poser community, though.

 

 

patorak3d posted at 10:20PM Tue, 01 March 2016 - #4258613

"So now, I have two questions for the Poser fanbase.

1.Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?" We do have Renderosity.

2.Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?" I believe so. It will take an extensive survey of the Poser community, though.

1. Forum wise, RDNA will be missed, but from what I understand SM is moving their forums elsewhere - otherwise, who cares? Other sides are up (hivewire, cgbytes, Yuri-digital, etc.)

2a. The days of One figure to rule them all is over. The market has fragmented and it isn't coming back. I would say that you are confusing DAZ's business model with SM's business model. You have missed the power that is in current versions of Poser. Poser gives you the toolset to use the figure of your choice. Wanna keep using a legacy figure - adding Poser 9+ features only take a few minutes. Or use the wide variety of modern Poser figures - the choice is OURS. The same can be said for clothing - I have dozens of outfits made for either M4 or V4 that have never gone on a DAZ figure. I LIKE not needing to build a new wardrobe everytime a new figure comes out.

2b. You will never get the vendors on board for a new figure - for the most part they are hell-bent on staying in the Poser 4 era and have no intention of leaving it. In 2016, vendors are still making material .pz2 files.

Lack of vendor support for ANY figure not named V4 is the REASON SM added the fitting room to Poser Pro.

ssgbryan posted at 9:06AM Wed, 02 March 2016 - #4258706

2b. You will never get the vendors on board for a new figure - for the most part they are hell-bent on staying in the Poser 4 era and have no intention of leaving it. In 2016, vendors are still making material .pz2 files.

Lack of vendor support for ANY figure not named V4 is the REASON SM added the fitting room to Poser Pro.

I don't think its because vendors doesn't want to support different figures. And think V4 and M4 got so popular, because they really advanced the figure market and you didn't have as many figures back then as you have now. So it was a logic move for people, not only vendors to throw themselves over these. Daz3d if i remember right, then started with the Genesis figures series and gave a base package away for free, which meant that any vendor could get the base mesh and make content for them without actually having to invest in it, as more and more Genesis figures came out again the base mesh could be downloaded and vendors could easily make content for them.

Since the quality of the genesis figures is rather good they also got popular, but for people making figures, I think this have made it a bit harder for them to release new figures. Because their figures requires vendors to buy them and there are lots of figures, not only humans ones. So a vendor would have to make a lot of investment for making content to all these. So I think anyone making a figure would benefit from copying that idea from Daz3d and release the base mesh for free with the most common morphs and then special morphs and textures are bought separately. Because that would allow vendors to easily make content for them.

"2b. You will never get the vendors on board for a new figure" We would have to look for new vendors that would support a new figure.

"So I think anyone making a figure would benefit from copying that idea from Daz3d and release the base mesh for free with the most common morphs and then special morphs and textures are bought separately. Because that would allow vendors to easily make content for them." Good idea. For a new figure, we should look beyond DAZ, though.

Step 1. We should study and observe our environment.

Step 2. Create a human primitive and look at our options.

 

 

Good idea. For a new figure, we should look beyond DAZ, though.

Then again its not as easy for a vendor to even copy that of Daz or even go beyond. Because Daz and the other content stores, have the benefit that they get X amount of % of the sale. So they can easily give the base model away for free and still make money from textures, morphs, content etc. But a individual making a character and giving the base model away doesn't have that privilege and risk that another vendor create morphs and textures for the model that becomes more popular than the character creators own, which of course is of little use for them then. So not sure, how to really get around it, but its definitely not easy i think to sell characters and make them popular as well.

ssgbryan posted at 5:31PM Wed, 02 March 2016 - #4258706

patorak3d posted at 10:20PM Tue, 01 March 2016 - #4258613

"So now, I have two questions for the Poser fanbase.

1.Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?" We do have Renderosity.

2.Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?" I believe so. It will take an extensive survey of the Poser community, though.

1. Forum wise, RDNA will be missed, but from what I understand SM is moving their forums elsewhere - otherwise, who cares? Other sides are up (hivewire, cgbytes, Yuri-digital, etc.)

2a. The days of One figure to rule them all is over. The market has fragmented and it isn't coming back. I would say that you are confusing DAZ's business model with SM's business model. You have missed the power that is in current versions of Poser. Poser gives you the toolset to use the figure of your choice. Wanna keep using a legacy figure - adding Poser 9+ features only take a few minutes. Or use the wide variety of modern Poser figures - the choice is OURS. The same can be said for clothing - I have dozens of outfits made for either M4 or V4 that have never gone on a DAZ figure. I LIKE not needing to build a new wardrobe everytime a new figure comes out.

2b. You will never get the vendors on board for a new figure - for the most part Lack of vendor support for ANY figure not named V4 is the REASON SM added the fitting room to Poser Pro."

But alas the fitting room did very little to increase the popularity of pauline, Paul ,Dawn Dusk, Scarlett or "EF Steve. They all languish in relative obscurity and will likely continue to fade now that a not so crippled G3 female can be rendered in poser 11.

My website

YouTube Channel

The population considers Vicky Queen .The population votes who will be president. Vicky always has and always will be the Queen of one mesh to rule them all. but a morph base on a certain mesh with a certain rig with licensing and copyright rules. has a lot of limits ,looks, cloths etc etc. are all limited. Probably why I have not seen a optimus prime or diablo morph.

I've never had the thought to make just one mesh and then just make morphs for it. I've never thought to limit my self. Why would I build my own prison.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

wolf359 posted at 9:56AM Thu, 03 March 2016 - #4258945

ssgbryan posted at 5:31PM Wed, 02 March 2016 - #4258706

patorak3d posted at 10:20PM Tue, 01 March 2016 - #4258613

"So now, I have two questions for the Poser fanbase.

1.Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?" We do have Renderosity.

2.Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?" I believe so. It will take an extensive survey of the Poser community, though.

1. Forum wise, RDNA will be missed, but from what I understand SM is moving their forums elsewhere - otherwise, who cares? Other sides are up (hivewire, cgbytes, Yuri-digital, etc.)

2a. The days of One figure to rule them all is over. The market has fragmented and it isn't coming back. I would say that you are confusing DAZ's business model with SM's business model. You have missed the power that is in current versions of Poser. Poser gives you the toolset to use the figure of your choice. Wanna keep using a legacy figure - adding Poser 9+ features only take a few minutes. Or use the wide variety of modern Poser figures - the choice is OURS. The same can be said for clothing - I have dozens of outfits made for either M4 or V4 that have never gone on a DAZ figure. I LIKE not needing to build a new wardrobe everytime a new figure comes out.

2b. You will never get the vendors on board for a new figure - for the most part Lack of vendor support for ANY figure not named V4 is the REASON SM added the fitting room to Poser Pro."

But alas the fitting room did very little to increase the popularity of pauline, Paul ,Dawn Dusk, Scarlett or "EF Steve. They all languish in relative obscurity and will likely continue to fade now that a not so crippled G3 female can be rendered in poser 11.

Depends on your view point. I don't think Dawn has continued to fade and interest appears to have increased since the release of version 2 and SE. What is more users did not have to re-buy her wardrobe for version 2. She never will compete with Genesis in terms of sales, or V4 for that matter, but that does not mean there are no sales. I have used the fitting room extensively for clothes for Dawn and the same for Dusk.

Genesis may well be good but each version also attracts a percentage that buy because it is the latest and greatest and they will quickly move to Genesis 4 when that is launched. The days of one figure dominating has gone, there are going to be more and more figures with reduced support compared with V4.

For some this reduced support means they live in obscurity, for others they see a figure they can use in their art and quietly continue to do so.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

wolf359 posted at 10:11AM Thu, 03 March 2016 - #4258945

But alas the fitting room did very little to increase the popularity of pauline, Paul ,Dawn Dusk, Scarlett or "EF Steve. They all languish in relative obscurity and will likely continue to fade now that a not so crippled G3 female can be rendered in poser 11.

What metrics are you using to define "popularity"? Is "languish in relative obscurity" a fancy way of saying Not sold at Renderosity? Go look at the members online widget in the upper left hand corner - it is down 50% since the last site "upgrade" and the Prime debacle. Renderosity is no longer the place to be. And it is for the most part, self-inflicted.

I don't think it is "obscurity" as much as it is "diffused".

Dusk & Dawn don't appear to be languishing at Hivewire3d. I have over 50 Dawn characters (and I don't own all of them). Pauline was picking up steam until the buyout of RDNA. OTOH, a lot of that Pauline content could be picked up at Content Paradise. Over on CGBytes, we are all waiting on Project E with bated breath. Hell, even Poser World is getting into the Original Poser Figure act. There is a market for new figures and I have to say, it is refreshing after the V4 era. IMO, it beats buying a G3F figure that looks exactly like a G2F figure, which in turn looks exactly like the vendor's V4 figure.

If someone uses V4 as a baseline, every figure is a failure - DAZ or otherwise.

But in the forums here and RDNA for example you are only going to see a very tiny slice of the total Poser users. You can say that the recent native Poser characters were failures because not much content was made for them, but there are also a great many people who use Poser without constantly buying new external content. Either because the tools we have in Poser make buying new items less necessary, or because they never needed them for their use of Poser. Depending on your use - you could be perfectly happy to use mostly the content you already have. And whatever the failings of CP as a store, it is accessible from inside Poser so perhaps there are many users who may never look any further for their content?

I think the loss of RDNA is a shame from the point of view of older stuff that will be retired - I get a lot of use from recycled clothes for older figures - and it's annoying from the point of view of relocating the official forums. But I don't see it as some kind of death blow for Poser. I strongly suspect that large numbers of Poser users may not even notice.

"So not sure, how to really get around it, but its definitely not easy i think to sell characters and make them popular as well." Maybe a multi-level approach is needed.

"But alas the fitting room did very little to increase the popularity of pauline, Paul ,Dawn Dusk, Scarlett or "EF Steve. They all languish in relative obscurity and will likely continue to fade now that a not so crippled G3 female can be rendered in poser 11." Could be then if someone was going to make a figure then they would need to go beyond G3's capabilities.

"I've never had the thought to make just one mesh and then just make morphs for it. I've never thought to limit my self. Why would I build my own prison." You've just given me an idea. Thank you.

"Genesis may well be good but each version also attracts a percentage that buy because it is the latest and greatest and they will quickly move to Genesis 4 when that is launched. The days of one figure dominating has gone, there are going to be more and more figures with reduced support compared with V4." Hopefully, we're moving in the right direction to achieve that.

What metrics are you using to define "popularity"? Is "languish in relative obscurity" a fancy way of saying Not sold at Renderosity? Go look at the members online widget in the upper left hand corner - it is down 50% since the last site "upgrade" and the Prime debacle. Renderosity is no longer the place to be. And it is for the most part, self-inflicted. Membership may be down too because of the economy.

"I think the loss of RDNA is a shame from the point of view of older stuff that will be retired - I get a lot of use from recycled clothes for older figures - and it's annoying from the point of view of relocating the official forums. But I don't see it as some kind of death blow for Poser. I strongly suspect that large numbers of Poser users may not even notice." I hope they do notice and become more active in the Poser community because of it.

Again, if you are going to make a figure for Poser, step 2 should be obtaining a reference and setting your models proportions. Both male and female.

 

 

I have been using Poser since Poser 3 was the latest version.

patorak3d another idea ,for texturing ,Indie Allegorithmic Substance Live ,would go great with NewTek Lightwave ;)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"I have been using Poser since Poser 3 was the latest version"
You've been in it for the long haul, then? I hope you don't mind me asking, but what has been the figure you have worked with the most? BTW Thank you for the models you have given us.

"patorak3d another idea ,for texturing ,Indie Allegorithmic Substance Live ,would go great with NewTek Lightwave ;)" Excellent! You do know, though, that I couldn't texture to save my life.Lol. RorrKonn, we both know it takes a crew to make a Poser figure(s). So I've got to ask you, would you be willing to partner up and help me on this?

Step 3 bend your figure at the joints except the fingures and toes. Bend them between 5-10 degrees.

 

 

patorak3d .Have you seen my Renderosity Gallery ? I'm not dude for the warm n fussy textures ,but a Dark Halloween texture ,maybe.

I'd find the best Venders that makes skin textures and ask them if they would like to make some textures for your character.

I'd find the best Venders that makes morphs and ask them if they would like to make some morphs for your character.

Phattom3D and Joe Publick are some of the best at rigging.

I hope your character is very successful. but to be honest about it I don't want to be part of a 3D crew any more. Still half to pay the bills thou.

In my spare time .next month or two ,I will be making Substance Designer Proceduals ,Generaters ,Materails etc etc

Then I'll make some low polycount buildings ,I'll make them DAZ Poser compatible but there still be low polycount. I have no doubt Stone Masson will be sweating my competition ;)

Then sometime around 2017 I'll make some low polycount characters DAZ Poser compatible also.Have no doubt DAZ will be shaking in there shoes ,LOL.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

RorrKonn posted at 9:50PM Fri, 04 March 2016 - #4259339

Phattom3D and Joe Publick are some of the best at rigging.

It seems like both of them have left Poser behind, unfortunately. Phantom popped in once in 2014 for a few minutes, but otherwise hasn't been seen since 2012, as far as I know. JoePublic seems to have stopped posting, and I assume he's moved over to D|S and Genesis, based on some freebies I saw at ShareCG (unless I imagined that...).

There are some other master Poser riggers out there. I would count shvrdavid among them.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

I can't find Joe at CGShare at all. found Clark easy. Since the fall of runtime Phattom3D and Joe Publick might return home. HW3D Changed there PG Rating. So you never know what might happen.

RorrKonn has a AC rating ... Anarchy & Chaos ;)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"I'd find the best Venders that makes skin textures and ask them if they would like to make some textures for your character.

I'd find the best Venders that makes morphs and ask them if they would like to make some morphs for your character.

Phattom3D and Joe Publick are some of the best at rigging." Good thinking, RorrKonn. It would be nice if they dropped by.

"I hope your character is very successful. but to be honest about it I don't want to be part of a 3D crew any more. Still half to pay the bills thou." Thanks and I understand. I hope you will keep contributing to this thread, though.

"In my spare time .next month or two ,I will be making Substance Designer Proceduals ,Generaters ,Materails etc etc

Then I'll make some low polycount buildings ,I'll make them DAZ Poser compatible but there still be low polycount. I have no doubt Stone Masson will be sweating my competition ;)

Then sometime around 2017 I'll make some low polycount characters DAZ Poser compatible also.Have no doubt DAZ will be shaking in there shoes ,LOL." Excellent! Keep us posted on your progress.

"It seems like both of them have left Poser behind, unfortunately. Phantom popped in once in 2014 for a few minutes, but otherwise hasn't been seen since 2012, as far as I know. JoePublic seems to have stopped posting, and I assume he's moved over to D|S and Genesis, based on some freebies I saw at ShareCG (unless I imagined that...).

There are some other master Poser riggers out there. I would count shvrdavid among them." Hopefully, they will come back. Seems like we have lost a lot of people. Let shvrdavid know he's more than welcome to join us here. In the mean time we'll keep surveying the potential, checking for options and setting the priorities.

"RorrKonn has a AC rating ... Anarchy & Chaos ;)" Awesome!

Now step 4 Do full body morphs of the primitive from teenagers to babies that have the potential to be separate figures.

 

 

I'm always around :)

I half to learn more about Substance Live copy rights n intellectual property rights stuff. but there seems to be a lot of confusion. & If you make Substance Designer PBR from scratch requires the use of absolutes ,cosine ,float ,integers ,acos etc etc .So I'm sure about using SL.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"I half to learn more about Substance Live copy rights n intellectual property rights stuff. but there seems to be a lot of confusion. & If you make Substance Designer PBR from scratch requires the use of absolutes ,cosine ,float ,integers ,acos etc etc .So I'm sure about using SL." Any alternatives?

Step 4a after you finish the family morphs start Poser genre morphs.

 

 

alternatives ?

For procedural texturing darksim n substance designer only two I can think of. texture maker uses procedural but it's a different kind of app. darksim n texture maker are all but ghost.substance designer ...

You would think there'd be a lot more procedural texturing app's.

For 2D painting textures.There's a lot of choices. Photoshop & zBrush.probably some of the best current choices for making 2D textures. I don't have in my home studio but 3DCoat or Mari there descent choices also.

substance live would be killer if there EULA allows it . & I can learn substance designer.I swear it has the highest learning curve I've ever seen in CGI.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

'You would think there'd be a lot more procedural texturing app's." How long has procedural texturing been around?

"substance live would be killer if there EULA allows it . & I can learn substance designer.I swear it has the highest learning curve I've ever seen in CGI." How restrictive is substances EULA? Are there any courses for substance designer?

Step 4b Still working genre morphs. Here's Sci-Fi Morphs

 

 

When I started CGI in 1998 we all ready had procedurals. So I don't know how long procedurals have been around. LW's been around since the Amiga days, they'd know.

eventually I'll work allegorithmic out ,maybe. for now I'm going forward getting ready to ,make textures with photoshop ,zBrush .

would be real nice if someone would make procedural app that's easy to use. procedural could be a lot better n faster .

and it would be killer if we could trash the flat 2D UVMaps and have a 3D UV Map so there are no bloody seems.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

patorak3d ,you've been working hard on your morphs. are you going to lay a skin over the top the character primitives ? or is it a robot or a cartoon character ? where are you going with this ?

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"would be real nice if someone would make procedural app that's easy to use. procedural could be a lot better n faster .

and it would be killer if we could trash the flat 2D UVMaps and have a 3D UV Map so there are no bloody seems."

You can bake procedurals out into maps in most fully featured 3d apps.

3d painting paints across uv island boundries, seamlessly. The only problems you will run into are if your mapping has alot of stretching or scaling differences. This will reflect on your final maps.

"patorak3d ,you've been working hard on your morphs. are you going to lay a skin over the top the character primitives ? or is it a robot or a cartoon character ? where are you going with this ?"

I hesitated to mention this, but as you've raised the subject... I don't think he actually knows the purpose of his "steps" demonstrations to be honest, other than showing that he has a base mesh and lightwave. His steps have nothing to do with any kind of Poser figure creation workflow that I'm aware of. Not being mean here, just pointing at the elephant in the room. I won't bother pointing out why my critical comment is relevant to the topic, of which there are several glaring reasons. I don't think anyone who actually knows would say anything lest they risk being "mean" or "misbehaving". Or even more likely, wouldn't take the trouble to bother due to forum veteran contracted disillusionment. Why bother when all it will get you is boos and hisses? Just another day at the forums. Of course, being a poser figure creation hobbyist dilettante such as myself (see my ShareCG account), I'd be perfectly willing to eat my hat if anyone can discredit my observations. :)

---

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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

...that being said, (ran out of edit time), I would be willing to lend some help if there were any questions about basic, practical Poser figure creation processes. After I'm done eating. Volunteering to do so always seems to result in a barrage of "oneupmanship" from suddenly helpful people who probably wouldn't have offered help in the first place. Which from a help perspective isn't such a bad thing. There's a forum truism that if you want to get some help and your pleas are met with silence... deliberately posting some outrageous falsehood or technical nonsense is sure to get the squeaky wheel oiled by a motivated mob of concerned citizens. ;)

---

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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

EldritchCellar quote You can bake procedurals out into maps in most fully featured 3d apps.

If I don't have any procedurals to bake ,it's all kind of pointless. but most procedurals I've seen can't cross UV seems seemlessly

EldritchCellar quote 3d painting paints across uv island boundries, seamlessly. The only problems you will run into are if your mapping has alot of stretching or scaling differences. This will reflect on your final maps.

you left out there biggest problem .angles .3D painters streak angles

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

@ RorrKon Correct but. When you UV-Unwrap properly, then add a procedural texture, and THEN, in Blender, paint over the seams. Blender allows to paint directly on the obj, or on the map's, whatever your prefer to correct the seam. Then rebake. Or resave.

tonyvilters posted at 6:46PM Tue, 08 March 2016 - #4259968

@ RorrKon Correct but. When you UV-Unwrap properly, then add a procedural texture, and THEN, in Blender, paint over the seams. Blender allows to paint directly on the obj, or on the map's, whatever your prefer to correct the seam. Then rebake. Or resave.

ya that's preety much more or less how any app works. n your not 3D painting across angles. n no matter how you uv map a polycount of 6 cube you have angles. who ever makes a better ,faster way has my money.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"would be real nice if someone would make procedural app that's easy to use." Has anyone tried procedurals in Poser?

patorak3d ,you've been working hard on your morphs. are you going to lay a skin over the top the character primitives ? or is it a robot or a cartoon character ? where are you going with this ? For now low poly figures. Step 5 I'll connect the cubes and capsules.

"I hesitated to mention this... ... motivated mob of concerned citizens. ;)" Glad to see you're joining in. There is a lot of work to do and the more the merrier. We'll be getting to Poser in step 7.

"@ RorrKon Correct but. When you UV-Unwrap properly, then add a procedural texture, and THEN, in Blender, paint over the seams. Blender allows to paint directly on the obj, or on the map's, whatever your prefer to correct the seam. Then rebake. Or resave." Have you been able to get the results into Poser?

Now on to step 4c continue with the morphs. This time fantasy morphs.

 

 

Hmmm. You wouldn't happen to be Patorak. As in Plain Jane, the Thing Patorak would you? I refuse to eat my hat. Lol.

"Have you been able to get the results into Poser."

I have. Baked procedural derived textures and 3d painted maps out of Modo on my humble creations. Displacements out of Zbrush. Also have a couple of new figures in the works...

If this guy is who I think it is, this thread should suddenly become very interesting. I think he's having a bit of sport with us... ;)

---

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My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

Well I'll play along

shaders .procedural shaders ,materials what ever there called all app's have them. you can buy Poser shaders in the store. but there no where near advanced as SL's .no ones are. google "substance designer materials" n your see what I mean.

you paint a 2D texture you mix nodes or sliders to make procedurals ,no painting. you can google "substance designer nodes" "poser nodes" "blender nodes" to see what nodes are.procedural Sliders are better then nodes ,nodes are to slow n aggravating. I avoid nodes like the bubonic plague. there like running a race with flat tiers. if you haven't guess yet I really hate nodes.

you can use nodes for more things then procedurals also. blender has nodes for a lot of things.

you can turn any procedural in to a 2D texture for Poser.

most app's if you Boolean or change the meshes vertices # it breaks the morphs. I'm not sure where your going with your character but I'd make the final mesh first .then morph map etc etc.

most make low polycount characters by sculpting a high polycount character for the normal and then retopology it for the low polycount version.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Yes rorrkonn. I know. Thanks for the lecture on making stuff, pbr, and using the Poser material room though. Lol. Next time I'll take a look at some of your things before proceeding. Pbbbt.

One would think that Patorak was forgetting vertex number and order problems with his workflow. But perhaps not. We'll see.

---

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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

Oh. And don't bother dragging Diamond and Chrome out again for the umpteenth time. I knew what they looked like 10 years ago. Still unfinished. Tread carefully dude, I've been saving up a little something for you. :)

---

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My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

Death Metal my last post was aimed at people that didn't know. I know you know .PBR snails ? don't cuss at me ;) REALTIME !!! YA ...

unless you know of a way to high polycount sculpt characters and then retopology them for the low polycount version, backwards. Diamond and Chrome will never be finished. there outdated meshes from before zBrush days.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I see this thread has sort of gone towards the "We need another character to support" direction.

Here is the biggest hurdle with that. And I am going to be blunt.

You wont support it after it is done....

Yep, I can say that with certainty, because I have helped with a lot of figures that everyone said they would support, then didn't... I know, that is too close to the truth to be relevant right? No, not really, it is a sad truth.

The truth is that most people don't really know what they want, other than something else. As soon as a new figure comes out, it turns into a bash fest because it is missing (insert whatever you wanted that wasn't there). It is the same old story, and everyone here knows that even if they wont admit to it. Then they go down the Genesis route... Oh boy, that poor dead horse.....

You want a new figure to support? Great, lets support Pauline.... Wait you say, why would I support Pauline? (insert whatever your reason for not doing so here)

Here is a perfect example of why we should, the EULA attached to her. Yep a simple thing like that, can make all the difference.

I know, Pauline is (insert whatever) and (insert whatever), but you have to admit she is a first based on the merchant resource part of the EULA.

Poser has the capability to support very complex figures, or simple ones that are easy to work with. Take your pick, because you can do the same thing with one figure.

Pauline can look basically stock, like this....

Or you can inject HD morphs with a ton of dependencies, and she looks like this.... Bends far better than most figures, and has muscle movement that does not have to be added to the cloth for it to work, etc.

But, why support any Figure? If everyone did there would be nothing to complain about in the Figure department, and the forums would not have a lot to talk about other than things people are actually interested in.... lol... People might actually have fun again. Who would have thought, having fun again??? That's an odd concept isn't it.

Yep, lets just make a new figure, so everyone can ignore it just like all the rest of them.......... It appears to make perfect sense to do so, because that is exactly what happens with just about every figure ever released.

We don't need a new figure, we need people to support the ones that people spend countless hours on.... Stop not supporting figures, and no one will be asking about one to support. Yeah I know, that's a stretch isn't it.....

All of these renders are of my re rigged Pauline Advanced... Soon I will release it, just so many of you can ignore it....

Nudity, Language, and Violence flagged because I murdered the cr2 to get it to bend extremely well and still use default content without using scripts. Nudity, because someone will see something that is actually there. And Language just so you can read it....

Carry on..........

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Well said shvrdavid. Good luck on Pauline Advanced.

 

 

I hope the New Pauline is successful .So can we modifie Pauline n Paul any way we want ? I just have Pro 14 can you just buy Pauline n Paul separately ? Rummor has it there going to change the rules on more of Poser characters. Might be fun to terrorize Roxie n Rex. Any time date on Roxie n Rex ? I've been waiting 20 years for some one to fix Posetta topology and wield that lose vertice.

patorak3d you can learn a lot about character creation buy studying or modifying others characters.

============================================================ 

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Patorak is a figure creator Rorr. He knows these things.

I say we all should just make our own figures. Suited to whatever kind of art we wish to make. And who says we need to create just one? This is how the rest of the the 3d art world and artists do things. Can't model or rig? Shrugs... Poser is cursed with the burden of its instant gratification user base, market mentality which rewards the most conformity (see the desire for Genesis, and most of the art being T&A based generic sexdoll crap, the summit of technical achievement usually resulting in a "photograph" of a living room), and the make art button. Harsh words? The truth. Ironic though considering how much I like the freebie community and the artists that contribute to it. Without the demand I suppose there would be no need for the supply. I guess my thinking is kinda schizophrenic on this point. Not sure how I feel about makehuman or other automations, similar to how I'm wary of 3d printing since I come from a traditional sculpture background. Sorry.

Someone needs to write an updated version of 'secrets of figure creation' that includes all of the nice features of Poser's content creation tools that have come along since it was published. Alot of things are woefully hidden or buried in forums in this regard. Fellows like shvrdavid, Netherworks, PhilC, etc. should be involved in a project like that.

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... just want to clarify on the 3d printing thing. I think It's awesome. If you're using it as a production tool for your own intellectual properties. A pile of plastic naked V4 sculptures? Not so much. And this isn't OT at all if you think about it...

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Could be quite possible that, sad as it makes me, I'm outgrowing Poser. Most of the art and things I see being made with it just don't feel real anymore. Unless you make all the content in an image yourself, it's not really your creation alone. You had help. It's appropriation. Which from an art perspective is one type of way of doing things. Mostly with Poser users it just seems like its "the only way". It's a big subject, worthy of a graduate thesis. I'm conflicted in my genuine like for the program, and my dislike of the bulk of its users mentalities, for the most part.

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EldritchCellar posted at 5:49AM Thu, 10 March 2016 - #4260204

I say we all should just make our own figures. Suited to whatever kind of art we wish to make. And who says we need to create just one?

Some (many?) of us do make our own figures, but those people are not the ones that usually ask for a Poser figure to be supported. There is merit in supporting a figure, and that has far more impact on a program than one might first think.

Take Genesis for example. Genesis is a figure, and at the same time is a program as well. The two are dependent on each other to achieve one goal. Basically, point and click. I am not bringing up Genesis to start an app war, more as an example of how a figure can have a strong impact on the direction a program is developed. Studio is primarily based around the Genesis concept at this point, and no matter what you might think about it Genesis has been successful in that regard. It also drives a content market, which is one of the differences between SM and DAZ.

Poser on the other hand, is not tied to any figure. There are hundreds if not thousands of figures floating around that will happily load into Poser and off you go. The main difference is the content, and getting it to work on other figures. Here is a perfect example. This is Earth Breaker for V4, converted to a lot of different base figures.

I don't have any problems converting clothes from one figure to another and I do it all the time. I did these conversions because someone in the forums was talking about how hard it was to do with things like armor and retain the detail. Many users do not have the Pro version of Poser, which will make conversions like this harder. Yes, it can be done, but point and click is basically out of the question until you have everything set up to do the conversion. I have Pro, and know how to do these conversions. Not everyone else does.

There are users out there that need a well supported Poser figure, simply so point and click works in both the standard and the pro version of Poser. Yes the tinkers can, and do, use whatever figure they want too and there are plenty of examples of that.

But, let's not forget about the people that just want to point and click either.

Those users need a well supported figure that is going to have content developed for it. For a long time that figure was V4, and all of us know that support for her is starting to drop off. Yes there is tons of content for V4 out there, but V4 does not take advantage of many of the new capabilities that P11 offers, and that separation will only increase as future version of Poser are released.

Carry on....

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Strange irony shvrdavid. Your ability to convert clothing means you're not supporting those particular figures. You may have used Pauline somewhere in that image but her use is not documented in any way that a potential content creator would recognize. Skilled users don't have as much need for morphs, new clothes and such. If you want something done right do it yourself, which some do, which is admirable but leaves us "point and clickers" with a bunch of potential figures with watered down support. How can one figure have much support when those able to create want to "contribute" to the community by offering/fixing/modifying yet another figure.

I'd like to learn more about converting clothes, rigging, texturing, morph creation, modeling, etc, for my own satisfaction and because it's obvious that Poser users are being catered to less and less. But the more I learn, the more I can create for myself, the less support I'll give to any marketplace or figure. Right now the only modern figures I'm interested in are the HW3D family.

________________________________

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What is the purpose?

To enjoy 3D ? Or to make money?

If you want to enjoy 3D? Any app and any figure will do.

If you want to make money? You are 10 years too late. There are more vendors then customers right now.

Only the sites that sell the content make money. => The many vendors get the left-overs. (And pay taxes)

"I say we all should just make our own figures. Suited to whatever kind of art we wish to make. And who says we need to create just one?".... Poser is cursed with the burden of its instant gratification user base, market mentality which rewards the most conformity (see the desire for Genesis, and most of the art being T&A based generic sexdoll crap,"

The majority of the user base is not interested in any of the usual Nerdy Mcnerd techno babble about creating the ultimate figure that utilizes the latest capabilities of poser.

E.C.( quoted above) just stated clearly why this is the case

@ shvrdavid ..Sir what uniform standards ( yeah there I go again!!), did you apply in creating that "advanced pauline" and who will enforce them, and what version of poser is required to implement them??

You see the problem is bit larger than a fickle user base with genesis envy.

The problem is the business model of the poser application itself It cost money to have the latest version and many do not always upgrade in a prompt fashion.

It is therefore very diffcult to have a central authority (Like DAZ does) Dictatiing to ALL vendors a set of basic uniform standards regarding rigging and content compatibility that will be supported by the host application.

This is the core reason why antonia FAILED this why Project E will ultimately FAIL and scarlet and Dawn etc etc etc..

Just do a cursery study of how important UNIFORM STANDARDS are in other industries that rely on external content for their various delivery platforms.

My website

YouTube Channel

I don't think it's uniform standards that prevent new poser figures from ousting Victoria 4.

From what i've seen the last batch of poser native figures are ugly, have dreadful topology, bend and balloon like defective air bags and are a pig to use without a level of wizardry that would put gandalf to shame.

sorry but most hobby users don't want to spend hours trying to fix figures that aren't comparable to and better than the millennium figures of 10 years ago. You also have all the Victoria 4 user demanding that all their old clothing fit new figures?

Without decent native Figures that are at least attractive from the first day of purchase Poser will continue to lose ground to the genesisis

wolf359 posted at 12:43PM Thu, 10 March 2016 - #4260251

"I say we all should just make our own figures. Suited to whatever kind of art we wish to make. And who says we need to create just one?".... Poser is cursed with the burden of its instant gratification user base, market mentality which rewards the most conformity (see the desire for Genesis, and most of the art being T&A based generic sexdoll crap,"

The majority of the user base is not interested in any of the usual Nerdy Mcnerd techno babble about creating the ultimate figure that utilizes the latest capabilities of poser.

E.C.( quoted above) just stated clearly why this is the case

@ shvrdavid ..Sir what uniform standards ( yeah there I go again!!), did you apply in creating that "advanced pauline" and who will enforce them, and what version of poser is required to implement them??

You see the problem is bit larger than a fickle user base with genesis envy.

The problem is the business model of the poser application itself It cost money to have the latest version and many do not always upgrade in a prompt fashion.

It is therefore very diffcult to have a central authority (Like DAZ does) Dictatiing to ALL vendors a set of basic uniform standards regarding rigging and content compatibility that will be supported by the host application.

This is the core reason why antonia FAILED this why Project E will ultimately FAIL and scarlet and Dawn etc etc etc..

Just do a cursery study of how important UNIFORM STANDARDS are in other industries that rely on external content for their various delivery platforms.

Much of what you say is true but clearly there needs to be a new definition of success that is not based on what we remember from Generation 4. The days of one cross platform figure with 10 years worth of product are gone. Even at Daz there are those who never upgraded past Studio 4 and the original Genesis, are still using gen 4 figures or are interested in 3rd party figures including Dawn. In fact I'd guess half of the users I see in the HiveWire forums are Studio users, I don't know why they aren't totally in on Genesis.

At this point success for a Poser figure to me is going to mean a good set of morphs, continued content development and a version 2 at some point. I'm a Mac user. I'm used to not being catered to. Poser users will either have to fill in the blanks or move on.

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Did this in November within a day or so of getting the figure. When Shvrdavid finishes his improved Pauline I will give her a more attractive head.!

goodle warlords monsters dragons fantasy sci fi anime etc etc. your see a lot that's never been seen in DAZ Poser.

I've never agreed with the one mesh for all mentality.

Genesis 1 is the last female character DAZ would ever need. Roxie is the last female character Poser would ever need.

Same mesh for male n females ,never would I. it's just so beyond wrong.

Sure I like hot babes but can we have some warlords monsters dragons etc etc a long with the babes.

I'm convinced the sheer lack of anything new and 0% imagination is what kills Art.

but hay make more panties for the new hot babe mesh that looks just like the old hot babe mesh and then wonder why you don't have enough for a 5th of Jack n a pack of Reds.

The Bastard that made a killer collection of warlords monsters dragons etc etc .wouldn't give a damn about vicky or venders support while he's enjoying his Jack ,Reds n Babe.

I'm going to go hang out with the Vikings

============================================================ 

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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wolf359 posted at 4:39PM Thu, 10 March 2016 - #4260251

@ shvrdavid ..Sir what uniform standards ( yeah there I go again!!), did you apply in creating that "advanced pauline" and who will enforce them, and what version of poser is required to implement them??

Pauline and Pauline Advanced are Poser 11 figures. Pauline has geometry handles that do not load in previous versions. You can load her into P9 and P10, but there are some things that will either work differently, or will not work at all. Pauline Advanced has a lot more translations set up in it than the default Pauline, and P9 and P10 will ignore those when loading. It is not a deal breaker simply because none of the translations are linked to the rigging and left for end user tweaking. (once you see it you will understand what I mean, there are some oddities with translations and because of that they are not linked to dependencies) Even thou Geo Handles will not appear in P9 and P10 those bones appear in the hierarchy editor.

You actually reminded me of a few pose files that I need to make for Pauline Advanced so some things are easier to do in older versions as well. The default Pauline Advanced cr2 does not show any of the Geo handles in the pull down menus of the preview and the parameters pane. I did this because more often than not all they do is clutter up those menus. I also have a few more pose files to change the handles than the default Pauline does.

Pauline Advanced will load into P9 and P10, but since the cr2 contains P11 only features you obviously wont be able to use those features in an older versions of Poser. She is rigged to work without using the P11 features, but she will not work as well as she does in P11.

As far as uniform standards?

The re rig is sort of done backwards. It is not re rigged to be a completely new P11 figure, it is re rigged to be as compatible with existing content as possible without pulling your hair out. More than a few vendors have already made things for Pauline and I did everything I could to make as much of that as possible, still work.

Some of the content is not going to be needed, like jcms to correct the default rigging. All of the weight maps are as smooth as possible so they transfer to clothes within the program with minimal clean up needed afterwards. The JCM's follow the same idea, and in many cases they are not even needed in the cloth at all (depends on the offset from the body).

There are no JCM's on the elbows and knees, which makes setting up content on those joints very simple. Those joints don't really need JCM's,

The breasts are scaled differently to work better with the rigging of the breasts. I rarely use the breast scaling and the grouping of the figure has disadvantages no matter how you map it. I have included more than a few morphs with the re rig to get away from needing to use breast scaling at all.

Keep in Mind that in P11, many of the joints are mapped for rotation, scaling, and translations. This opens up far more possibilities than previous versions of Poser could offer.

Not sure what else to tell you, lol....

///Back to the regularly scheduled thread...

Carry on....

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"unless you know of a way to high polycount sculpt characters and then retopology them for the low polycount version, backwards."

I suppose there's any number of "the latest things" that could be done. I dont worry about tech too much. I run with what I've got. Displacements? Create a reasonably low poly mesh, uv map it, give it groupings and a basic rig, create morphs; in particular expressions which are easier to do on a lower res mesh, subdivide it, fix any stretching on the maps introduced by the subdivision, transfer the rig, create further morphs that are better achieved by the higher poly count. Transfer the low res morphs over to the higher res mesh, tweak joints and the rig to satisfaction, add any dependencies or bells and whistles to the .cr2 such as synced eye rotation dials, easypose, movement dials, jcms, body handles, altGeom, magnet handles (much better than body handles IMO for certain deformations. My new tech interest actually... just need to sit down with it. Chocolate's Haru uses them to great effect I think... need to catch up on Poser magnet lore and dig around in some .cr2's), create your textures, displacements, clean up the final distribution .obj and .cr2 if necessary, create material files, promo renders, have fun. (I'm sure I missed something but work has been rough lately).

Send out into the world (or not)...

Someone is bound to appreciate it if you poured your heart into it. Especially the satisfaction you get from creating something that is truly yours alone. Doesn't matter how simple or complex it is as long as it serves it's purpose, whatever it may be. It's art making, not sweating over the latest trend or automation. Creation, getting it done, form fits function. You gave it your best shot. It exists. And then... on to the next act of creation. That's just how I do it and look at it. To each their own I guess, call me old fashioned... Doesn't matter really what anyone else is doing in terms of art making just as long as I'm enjoying my own things. To be honest I have a list of figures I want to create that could be made with, say, Poser 5, wings3d, a text editor, and photoshop alone and I wouldn't require or need anything else to do so. And the figures would function just as well without the latest features such as weight maps, pbr mats, control props (which is just body handles added as an in app automation), dependent parms (in app erc), etc. Model your vision to the tools at hand. It helps to not be so obsessed with the photorealistic chick syndrome that so many see as the summit of art in the Poserverse I guess... I think with Poser 11, zbrush, c4d, substance, houdini, photoshop, manga studio, and god all whatever else you've got you're fine in the tool department.

You puzzle me rorr. But hey, whatever... right ;)

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...and incidentally, I agree with many of the comments you made in your last post... which was a crosspost I think.

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Art imo is about communication not specifically rigid creation. You can clearly have art without implicit strict creation but not truly without communication. It's a brave man who can stand and say that something is or isn't art. As the intangible reality of what actually defines Art is a cornerstone to it actually being defined as Art.

Is the world's most amazing sculpture ever created that is then placed in a void never to be seen by another living soul, other than it's own creator, truly art? Or one man's introspective delusion, merely a dream existing only internally.

Is a sculpted platonic shape that is placed in an empty gallery space truly creation? What did the artist uniquely create? Not the shape itself, not the sculpture method, not the space. What he did create was a dialogue triangle between the Viewer-The installation-The artist and this is something I do see in common with most of the object given the label as "Art".

I saw a great little thank you note at the end of a movie I was watching recently, the film was Bedrooms to Billions about the rise of the Computer game industry. I think it suits somewhat to the context here.

" And a special thank you to all those who told us that the video game industry was too niche, not art, or not an art form worth covering! Your closed minded lack of belief and knowledge was an incredible source of inspiration for us! Out of mass negativity can always be found a power of pure positivity, so never, ever give up! "

There's also a saying that a work of art is finished in the eye of the viewer. Probably why conceptual art is usually so highly mediated as to intent. I'm not adverse to your line of thinking razor. But, I've got to be selfish to a certain extent. It's simply a creative survival instinct on my part I think. Your analysis is just as loaded with your own peculiar judgements as well. Whether you're aware of it or not.

Explain an artist like Henry Darger with your rationalization.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Darger

Keep in mind that I'm also a graduate of a "fine art" school, so I'm well aware of the different modes of thinking. And how permeable they are. I didn't intend to define what art is or isn't. Simply my preferences in this little (very little) corner.

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oh I'm no puzzle .I'm just insane. I learned to draw Marvel ,DC comics with a pencils then markers then Conan with inks. then Acrylic ,oils then air brush. then they invented CGI so I learned box modeling ,the they invented zBrush so I had to learn how to sculpt. I learn a medium make 1 or 2 pieces with it and then move on to another medium or app. spent some in the store & made 3 or 4 renders in Poser 4 back then they where 600x600 pixels. there's one Acrylic painting hanging in my Moms house ,My brothers have 3 Oil Paintings of mine.

I went threw the trouble to learn MS5 and it's a killer app .then I make one peace and left it alone.

Once I conquered / accomplish something more or less .Guess I look for the next challenge.

I get on my own nerves about it also. I know If I would ignore the next challenge and just settle down and make a plan I might accomplish something more then one or two .jpgs.

============================================================ 

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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Oh, I think some of the most interesting art I've encountered has been in games also. But... that's like film in a lot of ways. Usually, very usually it's a collaborative work. I tend to think like a mad hermit in terms of my own efforts. Lol.

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Ditto rorr. I actually have a copy of MS 5 EX that I won. Have yet to seriously use it though. I deleted my gallery here, but you're aware of my traditional media work. I won't bother with a show and tell, over indulgent.

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Of course my view is slanted to my own experience and beliefs, it wouldn't really be my view if it wasn't. And I'm not saying your view is wrong, I just lean towards disagreeing with aspects of it.

Henry Darger would fit perfectly fine with my rationalisation of what does constitute art, as all of his work was introspective until the point of its discovery where he became recognised as an "Artist" externally. If his work had eternally remained undiscovered, to himself he would be an artist (or at least a creative), but I'm sure there would be no wikipedia page recognising his contributions to the visual art field nor any validation externally of him being an artist if that was the case.

What my rationale suggests is not that Henry Darger was not an artist, but each piece of his work wasn't truly art until it had been shared or discovered by others. I guess it's like 'If a tree falls in the woods and no one's there to see it, is there really a tree?' Or if I dreamed last night of the most beautiful world with its semi clad inhabitants, does that make me a creator or just a dreamer? As these things only existed unto myself and they have no actual existence other than my own memory or imagination. Darger was indeed a communicator, albeit in isolation, after all his work was built as a story which is in basis, a form of external communication.

I also noted this part of the linked article on Darger " Darger's human figures were rendered largely by tracing, collage, or photo enlargement from popular magazines and children's books (much of the "trash" he collected was old magazines and newspapers, which he clipped for source material). " Does tracing the human figure make him more or less of an artist or indeed just a cut and paster?

I'm curious how you would make a field such as fine art photography fit into the definition you have outlaid here. This is how wikipedia describes what separates a fine art photograph from journalistic photography. It seems to suggest that the intended communication of the photographer is the main notable difference between the two fields.

"Fine art photography is photography created in accordance with the vision of the artist as photographer. Fine art photography stands in contrast to representational photography, such as photojournalism, which provides a documentary visual account of specific subjects and events, literally re-presenting objective reality rather than the subjective intent of the photographer; and commercial photography, the primary focus of which is to advertise products or services." (1)

One other question that occurred to me is what is the point that an artist stops being an artist and becomes an engineer? In my view it seems that the primary goal of an engineer is to create for functions sake as a priority with communication between the creator-creation-user as unimportant, in fact most functional object we use are not considered art if that 3 layered communication is absent. Generally Art is communication with functionality considered as irrelevant in most cases.

Of course all of this is just opinion based with truly no black and white to what is "right" or "wrong". So in essence neither of us are right or wrong, we're just sharing idea's.

I don't think that documentary photography can ever be truly objective, closure is interpreted differently depending on the viewer, and certainly not commercial/ product photography which 9 times out of 10 is concerned with aesthetics and manipulation.

Sorry, Darger is significantly different than your average point click 10 renders of v4 a week Poser/DS user. This is where I'm critical. No further explanation is necessary, regardless of appropriation...I'd say any comparisons are really reaching.

"in fact most functional object we use are not considered art if that 3 layered communication is absent. Generally Art is communication with functionality considered as irrelevant in most cases."

A few images. (I said I wouldn't do this, but it's to make a point).

Functional objects. You can hold and pour liquid from the pitcher. You can eat off the plate. Dinnerware is functional. These objects are dishwasher safe. ;)

A pitcher and a plate. 100% my own creation.

Is this art?

The three figure pitcher sold for $800, the plate for $400. Out of a real world fine art gallery, within days of being contracted to the gallery, noob rate. This isn't bragging but just a little context for my next statement. I recently posted these images to my cgbytes gallery. Guess how many comments I got as compared to, say, a nearby picture of a scantily clad vickie? Yup, zero. Quite a dichotomy between the two realms of art huh? Lol. I won't elaborate with my thoughts on this. Hope that answers your questions razor... glad some people kinda like my Poser/model stuff though. And yeah, I only use my own creations there now too. Not elitist. Just the truth.

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EldritchCellar I always though your Art would make a killer Heavy Metal Album Cover. Ya my Renderosity gallery gets very few comments. Think we should throw a naked Vicky in there some where ;)

Razor42 I know a lot wouldn't call Games ,Art or the Transformers ,but to me it's Art. If I like it then I like it. others can like it or not .call it what they want. Every one has there very own personal definition of ART.

EldritchCellar ya games,movies n TV studios have crews. but there working under a impossible clock. But if you have the skills to make characters then you don't need a crew. I'd still work under a semi impossible time frame . those that don't seem to take to long to reach the goal line or never reach the goal line.

this was 30 years a go .I used black n gold model car enamel paint.to paint a simple lions face on a mirror. about the size of plywood. My Momma saw it and had me take it off the wall n put it in her car for her. the gallery went nuts .I told them it's Momma what ever Momma wants she gets.one of my kids has the lion now.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Yes all of the pieces you have shown here are definitely Art and very nice pieces too, but it's not the functionality that makes them art, it's the communicative qualities the artist (Yourself) has placed into the objects. So in other words if you remove the functional element of the piece, it would still be considered art, but if you removed the communicative elements from them they most likely wouldn't be. It would just be a blank generic plate and a plain pitcher, the function would be just as practical in a $2 mass produced plate or a 2$ pitcher. People didn't pay for the function or perceived the function as the item's true value, they payed for the form and appearance which is the communication that you infused as an artist into each piece.

Each of the items you have shown share the relationship I outlined, and indeed form a triangle of communication. Between Yourself the Object and the Viewer. What function does the Monalisa serve? A Vermeer? Michelangelo's david?. Though I think you may be slightly missing my point as I have not really communicated it very clearly, I'm not saying Art cannot be functional, look at examples like Architecture. I'm trying to say that it's not the functionality that makes a piece "Art". Art doesn't need functionality to be considered Art. But it is it really Art if instead of a triangle, you only have a two fold relationship such as Item-User, with the absence of a creator's touch or artistic communication through the form and appearance.

Here are two lamps where the function is basically the same but one is built purely for function and most likely cost efficiency, the other is artistic and communicates with the viewer as a thing of interest. If the both lamps stopped working one would still be considered to have value, would likely be worth repairing and still be a thing of beauty even if it was irreparable, whereas the other would be landfill. What makes them different?

Razor42 I know a lot wouldn't call Games ,Art or the Transformers ,but to me it's Art. If I like it then I like it. others can like it or not .call it what they want. Every one has there very own personal definition of ART.

This is what my point actually is Rorr, that what constitutes art is made up of a communicative relationship between the creator and item and the viewer. How naive or simplistic the method is or how the end result appears to others, really is irrelevant. Personal taste is a different thing again though. It is possible for someone to not like a genre or movement but it still be considered as art.

From what I can tell Eldritch is saying that the Point and Click Poser artwork, that some are creating, isn't really artwork because the level of creative input by the creator isn't enough to sanction it as uniquely their own creation. Basically saying they are the equivalent of the generic lamp. I'm attempting to say that P&C pieces are still "Art" as there is a communication triangle happening, even it is not to a particular viewer's own specific taste or definition of Art. There is a level of choice, control and direction added to the picture by the creator, even if it does use 3rd party elements, they still make it a communicative piece in my view. But you wouldn't have to look far to find an expert that will invalidate any picture made on a computer as incapable of being true "Art". And we're a long way off from decrying a NVIATWAS movement ;)

Anyways, We are getting a long, long way of topic...

Actually, this may be what is next for Poser, people actually having discussions about things without all the craziness that used to happen.

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Razor42 posted at 8:59AM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4260358

Razor42 I know a lot wouldn't call Games ,Art or the Transformers ,but to me it's Art. If I like it then I like it. others can like it or not .call it what they want. Every one has there very own personal definition of ART.

This is what my point actually is Rorr, that what constitutes art is made up of a communicative relationship between the creator and item and the viewer. How naive or simplistic the method is or how the end result appears to others, really is irrelevant. Personal taste is a different thing again though. It is possible for someone to not like a genre or movement but it still be considered as art.

From what I can tell Eldritch is saying that the Point and Click Poser artwork, that some are creating, isn't really artwork because the level of creative input by the creator isn't enough to sanction it as uniquely their own creation. Basically saying they are the equivalent of the generic lamp. I'm attempting to say that P&C pieces are still "Art" as there is a communication triangle happening, even it is not to a particular viewer's own specific taste or definition of Art. There is a level of choice, control and direction added to the picture by the creator, even if it does use 3rd party elements, they still make it a communicative piece in my view. But you wouldn't have to look far to find an expert that will invalidate any picture made on a computer as incapable of being true "Art". And we're a long way off from decrying a NVIATWAS movement ;)

Anyways, We are getting a long, long way of topic...

You haven't considered "good" art vs "bad" art in your discussion so far. Is there such a thing?

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I think of those that make Poser renders as directors and producers like Ridley Scott .

There directing actors like Roxie ,Pauline and Sigourney Weaver.

Me and Death Metal are the Aliens. ah creators ;)

3 different types of Artist but All Artist.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

shvrdavid posted at 9:15AM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4260399

Actually, this may be what is next for Poser, people actually having discussions about things without all the craziness that used to happen.

I really hope so

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

false1 posted at 9:18AM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4260416

Razor42 posted at 8:59AM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4260358

Razor42 I know a lot wouldn't call Games ,Art or the Transformers ,but to me it's Art. If I like it then I like it. others can like it or not .call it what they want. Every one has there very own personal definition of ART.

This is what my point actually is Rorr, that what constitutes art is made up of a communicative relationship between the creator and item and the viewer. How naive or simplistic the method is or how the end result appears to others, really is irrelevant. Personal taste is a different thing again though. It is possible for someone to not like a genre or movement but it still be considered as art.

From what I can tell Eldritch is saying that the Point and Click Poser artwork, that some are creating, isn't really artwork because the level of creative input by the creator isn't enough to sanction it as uniquely their own creation. Basically saying they are the equivalent of the generic lamp. I'm attempting to say that P&C pieces are still "Art" as there is a communication triangle happening, even it is not to a particular viewer's own specific taste or definition of Art. There is a level of choice, control and direction added to the picture by the creator, even if it does use 3rd party elements, they still make it a communicative piece in my view. But you wouldn't have to look far to find an expert that will invalidate any picture made on a computer as incapable of being true "Art". And we're a long way off from decrying a NVIATWAS movement ;)

Anyways, We are getting a long, long way of topic...

You haven't considered "good" art vs "bad" art in your discussion so far. Is there such a thing?

Any Art that promotes stupidity ignorance hate etc etc is bad Art

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Well what makes good art or bad art is quite a difficult question to answer. Though Rorr's answer is quite a good one imo

For example take this picture 'Dust Heads' depicting two junkies high on Angel Dust painted in 1982 by Basquiat.

Would you say in your opinion that this is good or bad art?

Would you be surprised if I told you the current owner paid close to 50 million dollars for it a few years ago at a Christie's auction in New York? Obviously the purchaser considered it to be quite good or maybe he/she just seen it as an investment piece. Though it's not really to my own personal taste there is something that I do like about it. Probably not 50 million dollars worth of like though. Hard to say whether it's good or bad art. Some like it, some don't. Some think it's worth millions, others may discard it as trash if they didn't know its true value.

Does it seem better or worse art knowing its value?

Of course Basquiat is dead so that increases it's value. People have also paid millions, I think, for certain comic books though the art may be described as primitive. Does color, spacial relationships, originality, concept or subject matter not come into play? They're rarely spoken of on these forums.

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EldritchCellar posted at 12:41PM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4260344

I don't think that documentary photography can ever be truly objective, closure is interpreted differently depending on the viewer, and certainly not commercial/ product photography which 9 times out of 10 is concerned with aesthetics and manipulation.

Sorry, Darger is significantly different than your average point click 10 renders of v4 a week Poser/DS user. This is where I'm critical. No further explanation is necessary, regardless of appropriation...I'd say any comparisons are really reaching.

"in fact most functional object we use are not considered art if that 3 layered communication is absent. Generally Art is communication with functionality considered as irrelevant in most cases."

A few images. (I said I wouldn't do this, but it's to make a point).

Functional objects. You can hold and pour liquid from the pitcher. You can eat off the plate. Dinnerware is functional. These objects are dishwasher safe. ;)

A pitcher and a plate. 100% my own creation.

Is this art?

The three figure pitcher sold for $800, the plate for $400. Out of a real world fine art gallery, within days of being contracted to the gallery, noob rate. This isn't bragging but just a little context for my next statement. I recently posted these images to my cgbytes gallery. Guess how many comments I got as compared to, say, a nearby picture of a scantily clad vickie? Yup, zero. Quite a dichotomy between the two realms of art huh? Lol. I won't elaborate with my thoughts on this. Hope that answers your questions razor... glad some people kinda like my Poser/model stuff though. And yeah, I only use my own creations there now too. Not elitist. Just the truth.

actually they are nice. but to my thinking showing amateur poser user artists "high brow" art (lets face it bro, sculpture, ceramics, oil and water color painting, leather craft, metalurgy, wood sculpture, etc) have always been considered "High Brow") you may NEVER get a response let alone a positive one.

I used to do this sort of art....(actually ALL those I mentioned above but for reasons too much to discuss no longer can. But doesn't mean I can't appreciate. And as a Poser user, I am grossly limited by the technology. I ate technology because i can't wrap my head around it enough to get those ideas out of my frelling head is like trying to sculpt with my feet! It sucks the unholy one. I have come to the point am bored by it all. I spend hours spinning dials and NOT creating any finished images. I did more creative work (hell, award winning work at times, published and commissioned work occasionally) with Poser 4 and the early Mil2 figures than I seem to be able to complete usinf Poser 2014 Pro and now Poser 11!

Bottom line, Wolf, you know me, If I could create my own Poser Sheitz I would and would have NO NEED for anything new. Having no need for anything new or anyone else's stuff I would never venture here into these sites or forums.which from a greater view, is a waste of time.... I can't, as so many Poser users CAN'T. Poser was created mostly for amateurs who wanted to be artists, for painters who needed a quicker base image upon which to create their digital paintings rather than drawing it from scratch, or for video artists who needed a simple way of comping animatic motions and scene views to help set up visuals for more advanced apps or working film or imaging....you know that man!

It is a catch 22. If you create a figure believing if it is out there they will buy it. Wrong. Failure comes from that mind set ans so many have failed. The standard for creating and selling any new figure is hugely based on what is already out there. V$/M4 are the highest standards and having been out there for so long have developed a wonderful following and support network. They have been a standard from which all others are judged. It drives me crazy for instance, seeing SM produce figures that SUCK for use in in Poser. I am not just talking about human figures but animals, creatures, animals, clothes, props and architecture. You would think they would see the importance by way of MARKETING that developing higher standards for their creative offerings to be a prime objective. I hate buying stuff from them because it is off by much....textures, joints, proportions, everything. there are very few content creators there who actually are good t what they offer but apparently get so little support selling their goods they create/offer very little. On the other hand if a figure is created no one will get it because they argue, there is no support stuff for it.

I see wonderful fantasy figures i can not for the life of me convince the creator to launch a more aggressive marketing campaign to get support for. He (actually it is they because there are two such creators of similar figures out there) refuses yet will not create extra content for to get attention for the wonderful figure. It drives me crazy. I bought the figure from one of them seeing promise but because I can NOT create my own stuff for it,I am afloat without a paddle in getting more use out of it. DOA is the term I think of. Having felt burned I did NOT buy the similar figure from the other for the same reason: Stupid stubborn refusal to add support content for what would have been a nice fantasy figure. In my country it is referred to: as swallowing the donkey and choking on the tail! mentality. BLAH!!!

As mentioned DAZ does and has almost always maintained a higher standard for content creators and thus the reason I have allowed my credit card held captive there for so long. But now it is time to take it away from their control. They failed to remember about the huge poser user base upon which they have based their stupendous growth on. They create content now exclusively for their free flagship app. Business wise it is viable for them. But for "unable to create my own content" users we are depressed there is no more support for our software o choice: Poser. Where do we go to get it?

Here....for now. If I could wrap this useless head of mine around learning new stuff I would get their free D/S and use it. But I can't so I don't. Also, having spent THOUSANDS of dollars there since before they were DAZ...since the latter days of Zygote and the first content CD I bought for the P4 humans, I am spent out. They actually did me a favor with this whole stupid Genesis thing and the useless Downloader and their DSON Importer(32bit) they don't even know how to help me get to work on my 64 bit Mac! I have saved tons of money NOT investing on any more of their offerings. What frelling kills me is their insisting to only offer animals, non-genesis based creatures and sets and simple un-posable props for D/S with NO Further support for Poser. I may get away from using new figures but I love some of their environments and nature sets by creators that used to offer for both platforms now supporting only D/S. Despite the insistence of content creators there saying DAZ does not force them to do so I just am NOT buying it knowing the long established content standards they adhere to...nope NOT buying it....literally and figuratively.

For as long as I can find support stuff for my greatly invested in Mil 4 figures and now my last version of Poser (v11+) for my Mac I will continue as I have always been including whining about stuff I would love to have for this or that and hoping there are some more creative techies out there interested in creating content for my apps and figures of choice and shamelessly begging fhr help to get this or that as needed hoping there is someone listening and willing to help.

Razor42 posted at 1:27PM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4260430

Well what makes good art or bad art is quite a difficult question to answer. Though Rorr's answer is quite a good one imo

For example take this picture 'Dust Heads' depicting two junkies high on Angel Dust painted in 1982 by Basquiat.

Would you say in your opinion that this is good or bad art?

Would you be surprised if I told you the current owner paid close to 50 million dollars for it a few years ago at a Christie's auction in New York? Obviously the purchaser considered it to be quite good or maybe he/she just seen it as an investment piece. Though it's not really to my own personal taste there is something that I do like about it. Probably not 50 million dollars worth of like though. Hard to say whether it's good or bad art. Some like it, some don't. Some think it's worth millions, others may discard it as trash if they didn't know its true value.

Does it seem better or worse art knowing its value?

The value of any art is set by a gallery knowing its consumer base and pricing items it has showcasing in their facilities geared to those willing to pay for it as "INVESTMENT". There was an artist who got launched such a gallery and subsequently had some articles written on him in pubs like Art Forum and the like who prompted an art investor named S.Stalone to buy one of his pieces. This artist publicly ridiculed the collector for spending so darn much money on one of his pieces. The value of his work was artificially inflated not by the gallery as much but by the person willing to pay for one of his pieces and obviously as such things go, went up from there. Kind of silly rally if you ask me but just how the whole art world works.

qaz posted at 1:35PM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4260280

Did this in November within a day or so of getting the figure. When Shvrdavid finishes his improved Pauline I will give her a more attractive head.!

this is a beautifully sculpted and textured face. If your body work for this is just as nice, get it out there.

Razor42 From The Expendables 3 - Funny Art Scene

I don't care about pablo picasso ,basquiat or the 1% that has millions to burn. I don't care if they all over dozed on angles dust.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Hmmm?? Angel Dust? Would that make them Heavenly!?

It would also be very easy to find an "expert" that thought the purity of the generic lamp was somehow more truthful. There's merits to that, too. I can find art in just about anything to be honest, perhaps not to my liking but still. I think I'm troubled by automation in general and where to draw the line. Especially when artistic self value, ego assessments, and the individual are involved. But all this is way down the rabbit hole and I'm glad I don't have to write papers anymore. Back to my little kitsch maquettes...

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My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

I don't want to pee all over anyone's strawberries but discussions about "What is Art?" really should be subject to some equivalent to Godwin's Law. Simply put, nobody can define what "Art" is and anyone who says they can is a liar or a fool or both. The only honest things anyone can say about any created work is if they like it, and what they believe its technical merits to be. Anything else, and I do mean anything, including aesthetics, is simply an opinion.

If you like something, great. If not, also great. If shvrdavid's right about us all being able to have civil discussions, though, well I'm all for that.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Addendum: Eldritch - that's outstanding work.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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First @shrdavid ,Thanks for the detailed answer.

Now that the discussion seems to have, yet again, performed a "Crazy Ivan"* *(see the hunt for Red October),

I will offer my ,admittedly jaded, opinion on the subject of "Art".

I come from a "fine Art" background. Started with the classic shaded pencil drawings in junior high and was easily exceeding the abilities of my art teachers by senior high.

later as an adult , after an overseas tour in the US Air Force,

I moved onto Airbrush& acrylic painting ,inspired By the likes of Boris Valejo& Micheal Whelan, and immersed myself in the "Fine Art" community of My hometown of Alexandria Virginia in Historic Old town on the banks of the Potomac River.

I have never Endured the vicissitudes of a more insufferable infestation of bloviating,self important, ,validation seeking ,neurotic,Rabble than those I encountered in the "fine Art community".

It was all based on who you knew, who was from your College alumni, and most importantly your ultra leftist political affiliation.

I quickly Eradicated any silly notion of selling "paintings" from a studio space at the legendary "Torpedo Factory", from my brain and Started learning QuarkXpress and Photoshop.

And of course went on to a 19 year Career in Print prepress and Later Graphic Design ,and actually worked for the same large format Display company as forum member "Shante" for a While.

At any rate I Prefer to call myself a "Visual Communications Producer",with 3D/CG animation as My preferred Medium but will still Crank out some good old Print design when the client wants to Pay my rate.

"Bottom line, Wolf, you know me, If I could create my own Poser Sheitz I would and would have NO NEED for anything new. Having no need for anything new or anyone else's stuff I would never venture here into these sites or forums.which from a greater view, is a waste of time.... I can't, as so many Poser users CAN'T."

Carm (Shante) you do not have to become a content creator to move forward. Other than some very simple hard surface models I dont create anything. I use All Premade Figures an Environments( Daz,StoneMason etc)

But I am an "objective based learner" who takes advantage of the vast task specific resources of the internet in the form of "how to" videos.

Everything I know about Modeling, Visual effects in After effects& Autodesk Combustion Nexlimit Realflow and Animating in Iclone etc. was learned from a FREE videos some helpful persons posted online.

you dont have to remember everything in video tutes just learn enough for whatever specific creative task you are trying to achieve at the moment and its on to the next task.

My website

YouTube Channel

Actually in 2016 you can make characters with out knowing how to model or sculpt. just make a 3D scan of some real humans.Don't really need to know how to retopologize either. Just use MudBox ,zBrush and there new guild lines .you might need a little tweaking here or there but. It's all low level skills ,no rocket science needed ;)

From time to time I kind of miss working with real world mediums. but I haven't messed with them since 1997 ,well except with the grand kids. I drew tats on the grand kids with permanent markers ,parents didn't see the humor in it ,LOL.

I like cool Art .Boris n Royo ,kiss love gun ,Iron Maiden killers ,nazareth no mean city album covers. etc etc

A peace that gets a emotion out of .like my made of scars.

Or a peace that really says something. I think one of the greatest works of Art ever made is the Memorial Vietnam Wall Painting.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

wolf359 posted at 4:53PM Sat, 12 March 2016 - #4260641

First @shrdavid ,Thanks for the detailed answer.

Now that the discussion seems to have, yet again, performed a "Crazy Ivan"* *(see the hunt for Red October),

I will offer my ,admittedly jaded, opinion on the subject of "Art".

I come from a "fine Art" background. Started with the classic shaded pencil drawings in junior high and was easily exceeding the abilities of my art teachers by senior high.

later as an adult , after an overseas tour in the US Air Force,

I moved onto Airbrush& acrylic painting ,inspired By the likes of Boris Valejo& Micheal Whelan, and immersed myself in the "Fine Art" community of My hometown of Alexandria Virginia in Historic Old town on the banks of the Potomac River.

I have never Endured the vicissitudes of a more insufferable infestation of bloviating,self important, ,validation seeking ,neurotic,Rabble than those I encountered in the "fine Art community".

It was all based on who you knew, who was from your College alumni, and most importantly your ultra leftist political affiliation.

I quickly Eradicated any silly notion of selling "paintings" from a studio space at the legendary "Torpedo Factory", from my brain and Started learning QuarkXpress and Photoshop.

And of course went on to a 19 year Career in Print prepress and Later Graphic Design ,and actually worked for the same large format Display company as forum member "Shante" for a While.

At any rate I Prefer to call myself a "Visual Communications Producer",with 3D/CG animation as My preferred Medium but will still Crank out some good old Print design when the client wants to Pay my rate.

"Bottom line, Wolf, you know me, If I could create my own Poser Sheitz I would and would have NO NEED for anything new. Having no need for anything new or anyone else's stuff I would never venture here into these sites or forums.which from a greater view, is a waste of time.... I can't, as so many Poser users CAN'T."

Carm (Shante) you do not have to become a content creator to move forward. Other than some very simple hard surface models I dont create anything. I use All Premade Figures an Environments( Daz,StoneMason etc)

But I am an "objective based learner" who takes advantage of the vast task specific resources of the internet in the form of "how to" videos.

Everything I know about Modeling, Visual effects in After effects& Autodesk Combustion Nexlimit Realflow and Animating in Iclone etc. was learned from a FREE videos some helpful persons posted online.

you dont have to remember everything in video tutes just learn enough for whatever specific creative task you are trying to achieve at the moment and its on to the next task.

Issues have always been the same for me old friend. Names. Numbers. Sequences. Are the issues that have always messed with my learning, my freaking life. You know that as do many people in these forums though having known me personally I trust you believe what I say more than anyone else. I have tried but always failed to do what you advise. I surprise myself I learned what i did to work where we were for 6 years before i got thrown away. I was the best they had at the time but still I got shit canned. I surprise myself i have learned what little I have managed in Digital especially Poser but way to little for all the time I have worked in it and now just not enough anymore. It was never Art nor is now. I just do it to get the images I have always had in my head. Like then friend i do the best i can now, with what little I manage to bring to bear but for most things that is no longer enough to keep me going! Blame the muse, blame my head, blame technology I can no longer wrestle into submission. Needless to say I miss being able to honestly call myself an artist, not for the shallow title but for the release it has given me since 5th grade. A LOOOONG time creating "art". "God gives us all we need for our journey....not always what we want...but enough to give our lives a sense of purpose and comfort. As we get closer to the end of our journey he begins to reclaim those gifts." So it is happening with me Wolf and I have learned year by year, to accept that reality. It is feeling better as time flies to exhale and let go. Resignation is so damn liberating. :)

Maybe that's my trouble, shante... I don't like getting old. I'll be 57 in a few weeks and I hate the general falling to bits feeling that seems to come with it. Arthritis, COPD and a few other things really get my goat. As for other things, I love learning new stuff but time itself is something of a luxury, being a father to two young (5 and 6) children with autism. Most days are relatively free since they're both at school but there are many days I just don't have the energy or will to do much. That's what annoys me the most, the feeling of passing time, wasted time that I'll never get back. I'm running out of it, too. I know I've lived more than half my span and that first part went by in a flash.

Still, mustn't grumble, eh? ;)

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Blood Red Skies

Da Vinci grew old and had a stroke so he couldn't use his arm any more ,he was still Da Vinci ,Where entering good company.

Never surrender ,fight till your last breath.

Solar Angels

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

RorrKonn posted at 12:39AM Sun, 13 March 2016 - #4260723

Blood Red Skies

Da Vinci grew old and had a stroke so he couldn't use his arm any more ,he was still Da Vinci ,Where entering good company.

Never surrender ,fight till your last breath.

Solar Angels

DaVini died in his bed whispering over and over with his last breath: "Tell me if anything was ever done....tell me if anything was ever done........tell me...."

Not so grand an epitaph....I seem to be whispering a bit louder sometimes, the same damn thing.

Arthritis ... yup. I'm 77 now and it's the arthritis that irritates me most. I don't call myself an artist; can't draw or paint for toffee; can't do much with my left hand now, but as long as the right hand can manage the mouse I'll produce the pretty pictures I like making. Just as well we don't draw with our knees; they don't work properly either!

"I have never Endured the vicissitudes of a more insufferable infestation of bloviating,self important, ,validation seeking ,neurotic,Rabble than those I encountered in the "fine Art community"."

That's a stereotype if I ever saw one. ,,A clumsilyAssemBled One,. 1.5 stars. Lol.

---

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My Freestuff and Gallery at ShareCG

wolf359 posted at 1:18PM Sun, 13 March 2016 - #4260251

This is the core reason why antonia FAILED this why Project E will ultimately FAIL and scarlet and Dawn etc etc etc..

Project E will not fail because I know one artist that is going to use her actively. Me. If nobody else wants to use her that's none of my business. Better yet, she has been entertaining people for well over a year in two popular free comics. That's what its about for me. I have comics to make, I will use project E, just like all those Maya and Max and Lightwave and C4D artists model and rig their own figure that will never hit the market. It would be cool if I could make a bit of pocket change with her, but I'm not entering this figure race so that I can start setting up yet another ridiculous tribe.

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

Good rebuttal on that Ero. Thought that call out was a little bold on wolf's part. I also think that many of the insults on the forums to teyon's work have been rather callous. You don't seem to have much of a choice on the "ridiculous tribe" thing though. Totally illogical and not at all practical from a pragmatic perspective in such a market driven art realm, and let's face it, most of your work is market oriented, but it would have really been something if PE had sprang fully formed like venus on a half shell into the Poserverse without all the hype. This isn't a malicious opinion, I think she looks gorgeous, more like a what if opinion.

...thought that gallery comment on one my images at CGBytes "you made that???" was hilarious BTW.

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Your comic is free? I might have to make a reassessment of my market oriented comment, and clarify that this in itself is not a bad thing. The quality seems to be there. I'll have to check it out. Haven't really looked at too many Poser erotica comics, I like some traditional media comics of that nature though. Richard Corben, Milo Manara, Shunya Yamashita, and Range Murata are some favorites...

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EldritchCellar posted at 2:20PM Sun, 13 March 2016 - #4260758

Good rebuttal on that Ero. Thought that call out was a little bold on wolf's part. I also think that many of the insults on the forums to teyon's work have been rather callous. You don't seem to have much of a choice on the "ridiculous tribe" thing though. Totally illogical and not at all practical from a pragmatic perspective in such a market driven art realm, and let's face it, most of your work is market oriented, but it would have really been something if PE had sprang fully formed like venus on a half shell into the Poserverse without all the hype. This isn't a malicious opinion, I think she looks gorgeous, more like a what if opinion.

...thought that gallery comment on one my images at CGBytes "you made that???" was hilarious BTW.

Granted a lot of what I do does seem like hyping, but its also to hype myself up. Its not an easy task, making a solid figure that really looks good, like my helpers will attest. I maintain, PE is definitely about art, and the fun of it. And that definitely involves a bit of hype, fun, enthusiasm. Whether that will pay off remains to be seen, but I need to stand firm in my initial motivation in designing this figure, I need her for my own work. I hope that can guarantee some level of usefulness for other artists. And I repeat, how many professionals have made their own figure, perhaps miles better than anything out there, that might have never even seen the inside of a 3D content store. This is about art, and artists, at the end of the day, no matter how amateur or professional.

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

EldritchCellar posted at 2:35PM Sun, 13 March 2016 - #4260759

Your comic is free? I might have to make a reassessment of my market oriented comment, and clarify that this in itself is not a bad thing. The quality seems to be there. I'll have to check it out. Haven't really looked at too many Poser erotica comics, I like some traditional media comics of that nature though. Richard Corben, Milo Manara, Shunya Yamashita, and Range Murata are some favorites...

yes two of them are free. If I didn't have to eat, I'd give all my stuff out for free. Some declare me insane but the base of PE will also be free... wait maybe I am insane...

Manara is brilliant!

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

"And I repeat, how many professionals have made their own figure, perhaps miles better than anything out there, that might have never even seen the inside of a 3D content store"

I'd wager probably more than have made it into a store. A mass appeal human poser figure is expected to be so many things to so many people rather than a unique thing seems like...

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Manara is some kind of genius I'd say. IMO the sheer amount of feminine beauty he can conjure with a few pen strokes has to be some kind of genius...

Apologies for the OT.

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EldritchCellar posted at 5:35PM Sun, 13 March 2016 - #4260768

Manara is some kind of genius I'd say. IMO the sheer amount of feminine beauty he can conjure with a few pen strokes has to be some kind of genius...

Apologies for the OT.

If it takes a few pen-strokes to charm a lover of art into understanding beauty, how many mouse-strokes will it take to compel that same mind into it's equivalent?

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

Good question. Depends if it's using iconography or emulation of real world physics as its mode of communication. In the Poserverse the art is striving for greater realism. The highest praise seems to be "that looks real!" So I guess the question should be "is indistinguishable enough or transcendence". You don't hear "thats unreal" or naive or primitive in the praise lexicon too often herebouts. Generally speaking. Anyway, you're preaching to the choir here. I like and make digital art. Too.

There sure is a hell of alot of stunning talent out there, it's certainly not a village anymore ... Wish I could be around for another hundred years to see where it all goes. Eventually the tech is going to have to plateau, just as everything does more or less. I think that's when things will start to get really interesting.

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EldritchCellar posted at 12:22PM Sun, 13 March 2016 - #4260745

"I have never Endured the vicissitudes of a more insufferable infestation of bloviating,self important, ,validation seeking ,neurotic,Rabble than those I encountered in the "fine Art community"."

That's a stereotype if I ever saw one. ,,A clumsilyAssemBled One,. 1.5 stars. Lol.

Call it a “stereotype” if that pleases you .it is my personal observation of the various personality types I encountered at the Showings Where my painting were Featured/Sold in the northern Virginia &Washington DC market.  It is entirely possible you had a different experience in your local/regional fine art community so good on you.

Mine was perhaps 10 percent made up of people with actual Artistic Ability who created work in a specific medium and 90 percent “Fringers”, no talent wannabees, Art History majors.”groupies and local political Glitterati (sp?).

But I am not bitter as I did not “drink the coolaid” or “chase the noble starving artist Dream” I taught myself Employable skills that made Decent income for my Family(Graphic Design For Press) and later graduated to CG animation & Visual Effects.

@ Erogenesis you have made a well constructed, advanced poser figure for your personal use But in the larger context of Becoming a major replacement for V4/Challenger to Daz genesis(as many in this community are Clearly hoping) , I don’t personally Imagine such a scenario. This is due to the obvious connundrum of users AND content creators still using Older poser tech and wanting Backward compatibility for eternity ,not to mention That P11 Users can now use That Elusive ,magical, overrated unicorn Called the genesis 3 Female.

My website

YouTube Channel

Ah, face it wolf... that's the same thing you say about the Poser art community. No? You've already stated your disdain for the term artist but it's not as if you're actually working in some rarified theoretical place above reproach or contradiction. You've been working on a short cg film for years...

About Galactus.

Try to keep things in perspective and not bizarrely fanatical. Huff Puff.

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wolf359 posted at 7:45PM Sun, 13 March 2016 - #4260813

@ Erogenesis you have made a well constructed, advanced poser figure for your personal use But in the larger context of Becoming a major replacement for V4/Challenger to Daz genesis(as many in this community are Clearly hoping) , I don’t personally Imagine such a scenario. This is due to the obvious connundrum of users AND content creators still using Older poser tech and wanting Backward compatibility for eternity ,not to mention That P11 Users can now use That Elusive ,magical, overrated unicorn Called the genesis 3 Female.

In some ways I might not be contending your views. In other, respective of the art that matters... may the best man win!

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

Against boredom even the gods contend in vain. Or something. Nap time!

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EldritchCellar posted at 8:04PM Sun, 13 March 2016 - #4260823

Against boredom even the gods contend in vain. Or something. Nap time!

sleep well...!!

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

EldritchCellar posted at 2:01PM Sun, 13 March 2016 - #4260818

Ah, face it wolf... that's the same thing you say about the Poser art community. No? You've already stated your disdain for the term artist but it's not as if you're actually working in some rarified theoretical place above reproach or contradiction. You've been working on a short cg film for years...

About Galactus.

Try to keep things in perspective and not bizarrely fanatical. Huff Puff.

Well we all have our points of view like your obvious disdain for Premade assets and" Automation" and for those who use such "factory floor products" but there is a place in visual arts for us who do use such assets as well as those who nobly craft their models ......like you.

Oh and on the GALACTUS thing its a homemade fanfilm being cobbled in my spare time .

No big world premier planned ...no official release date Stop watching your little gotcha clock LOL!!!

My website

YouTube Channel

Well we just finished a none stop 7 day job.no one kewn about the daylight savings time LOL . Any ways To answer Da Vinci final question "Tell me if anything was ever done" , No not even centuries latter. Humans give new meaning to redundant.

Don't know if CGI/SciFi/Magic can ever plateau ,but if we where borned in the 23rd century ,Ya !!!

LW,C4D,zBrush came with characters n a lot of other stuff. LW actually came with our solor system spaced apart n every thing.it was a cool ride ;)

G1 n Roxie where the first high end app user friendly characters .high end app's use pc 20,000 SubDed characters or game characters with maps .the 60,000 polycount character where made for app's that couldn't SubD.

most high end users still don't make characters a lot of cars but few characters. it's just faster easier to buy them. you can brows there galleries .cars n monsters n there's no way of knowing if there monster started from a cube or bubba.

I always thought they should have given ODF Max for making Antonia. Hell of a accomplishment. So is PE.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

(Rouses from slumber, crawls out from beneath rock)

"but there is a place in visual arts for us who do use such assets as well as those who nobly craft their models ......like you.

Oh and on the GALACTUS thing its a homemade fanfilm being cobbled in my spare time .

No big world premier planned ...no official release date Stop watching your little gotcha clock LOL!!!"

Well it's a symbiotic relationship then wolf. I mean when I can manage to have a period of manic creativity I usually share some of my thingies with others. Some people like them, not sure out of that demographic who actually uses anything that I make. But, I can also understand the collector aspect of this hobby. I certainly don't have the ambition of Erogenesis or many other model makers or whatever. My traditional media stuff is the same way. I never set out to sell anything when I make it... most of the things I make that I'm most proud of seem to appear out of nowhere, with very little beginning to end planning along the way.

As far as your Galactus narrative goes, well if it's a labor of love then I can totally respect and understand that, actually more than I can understand the work-for-hire professional type thing that is tightly scheduled...

Wonder what happened to Patorak? I was looking forward to seeing where he was going with that...

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erogenesis posted at 9:13AM Mon, 14 March 2016 - #4260756

wolf359 posted at 1:18PM Sun, 13 March 2016 - #4260251

This is the core reason why antonia FAILED this why Project E will ultimately FAIL and scarlet and Dawn etc etc etc..

Project E will not fail because I know one artist that is going to use her actively. Me. If nobody else wants to use her that's none of my business. Better yet, she has been entertaining people for well over a year in two popular free comics. That's what its about for me. I have comics to make, I will use project E, just like all those Maya and Max and Lightwave and C4D artists model and rig their own figure that will never hit the market. It would be cool if I could make a bit of pocket change with her, but I'm not entering this figure race so that I can start setting up yet another ridiculous tribe.

I am so glad you responded in this manner, for something to be a failure you also have to define what is success. For some the whole point in any new figure the aim is to give something a vendor can make money out of with as little effort as possible but that is a very narrow view. Others feel it must sell better than, and replace V4, a view I think is doomed to failure considering the world has moved on since V4 was launched.

At present I use Dawn mainly, I still use V4 but not as much as before. I do not see Dawn as a failure and I have great fun using the figure and, if it makes me happy, I define that as a success. I have followed the E project for some time and I know your initial motivation was to have a figure you could use but you were also prepared to release it to the wider community I can't see how that can fail except that it won't make vendors the type of money V4 did.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

"Wonder what happened to Patorak? I was looking forward to seeing where he was going with that..." I'm still here, been lurking and listening. As for the figure, been edge looping and thinking about what RorrKonn said about different figures.

 

 

Being that my gallery get very few comments.Let me share ,very possible insane idea's I have.

If you want to make a realtime fantasy movie or comic or just a render. not about the sims or redundant pretty stuff.

Fantasy Games like ,darksiders ,diablo ,war craft.etc etc Have multiple characters and environments that fit.

So If I could go to the store n by fantasy characters n environments with a certain theme . low polycount character don't need killer textures or morphs & just a 1/2 way descent rig will do.

you can google darksiders ,diablo ,war craft.etc etc characters textured.to see what I'm rambling on about.

So in my spare time it's what I'm doing.environment first something along the lines of a fantasy hell apocalypse scifi monsters city something like rome all mixed together more or less. I'm staying away from nature stuff .and then I'll make the low polycount characters.

I'm not going for realism ,I'm going for cool.

I'll make the stuff usable for any app that has a store.will they download or buy any of it ? who knows but at least I'll have some cool meshes ;)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

We use to have 2 or 3 threads at a time with interesting conversations. Now where having difficulties with one ,sad.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

° °

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EldritchCellar posted at 12:15AM Thu, 17 March 2016 - #4260810

Good question. Depends if it's using iconography or emulation of real world physics as its mode of communication. In the Poserverse the art is striving for greater realism. The highest praise seems to be "that looks real!" So I guess the question should be "is indistinguishable enough or transcendence". You don't hear "thats unreal" or naive or primitive in the praise lexicon too often herebouts. Generally speaking. Anyway, you're preaching to the choir here. I like and make digital art. Too.

There sure is a hell of alot of stunning talent out there, it's certainly not a village anymore ... Wish I could be around for another hundred years to see where it all goes. Eventually the tech is going to have to plateau, just as everything does more or less. I think that's when things will start to get really interesting.

I forgot to respond to this. Although realism is something I do strive for when I have time, its not my central ambition here. For me its about entertainment and you don't need hyper-realistic renders for that per se. Herge managed to entertain millions with his simple Ligne Claire style, so I think simple P10 renders should be able to do the same. In the end its about the context and the story of the picture that really matters, and that is something no store can sell. Which brings me to this plateau you're talking about. If you're speaking of plateaus, I think Poser/DS art is going to hit that plateau very soon, where people will cease to be amazed by 3D renders by default, and will get bored of the same old render of Genesis or Vicky that and yet another piece of catalog art slapped together fresh from the store. In fact it might already be happening because me and my friends (also DS users) are feeling the pressure from fans, and its much more about style, composition, or really clever 3D trickery, tweaking and / or actual 3D modelling. It will be more about actual thought-out entertainment, than about the senseless CGI speed record from store release to first customer render, or the so-manyeth dull test render of this or that trending renderer. Test renders can also be done in style, so that you don't bore your fans to death:

project e.mesh4, HDRI, shadowcatch ground, Firefly.

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

hornet3d posted at 1:19AM Thu, 17 March 2016 - #4260945

I am so glad you responded in this manner, for something to be a failure you also have to define what is success. For some the whole point in any new figure the aim is to give something a vendor can make money out of with as little effort as possible but that is a very narrow view. Others feel it must sell better than, and replace V4, a view I think is doomed to failure considering the world has moved on since V4 was launched.

Yes I have noticed this, that its sometimes more about the vendors than the artists. Of course a lot of artists are dependent on content made by vendors, and I do like helping out vendors, mostly also because I am my own best vendor. I also want to make it easy for me to make / convert clothes for her.

But yeah I've noticed about this figure circus is that some of these figures seem to be more about technical achievement, some CGI trend, or some vendor catwalk model, instead of being a actual tool to be actively used in a comic book, or movie environment. However great these figures are, I can tell they were made by people that never make comics or even just pinups (and the same applies to software design and some other CG products and props). The way the dials are sometimes set out, very impractical, or the limits and sensitivities, or just the aesthetics of the figure, the shape and bending, or even the feel of the figure responding to your commands in the view port. This might sound stupid but if you've never made a full-length comic with these characters, you won't know what I mean. With PE I'm basically remembering all my experiences with V4 and my older version of PE while making comics, looking at other figures like Dawn and Genesis, and basically trying to push the usability of this figure to a maximum... but my main guide throughout this whole process is my own plans for her. That's the only way i can guarentee that she'll be of any use.

hornet3d posted at 1:19AM Thu, 17 March 2016 - #4260945

At present I use Dawn mainly, I still use V4 but not as much as before. I do not see Dawn as a failure and I have great fun using the figure and, if it makes me happy, I define that as a success. I have followed the E project for some time and I know your initial motivation was to have a figure you could use but you were also prepared to release it to the wider community I can't see how that can fail except that it won't make vendors the type of money V4 did.

Yes, whatever works. I think people will be surprised after the release of PE, because I am completely going to focus on comics from then on. I might make a male figure, might... might... but I have never been a content vendor and never will be. I got into CG for comics, not politics or tribalism. I positively hate this stupid figure circus and I am definitely not doing it to become famous or get a piece of the pie. This is just me saying, bugger all those figures, I'm making my own... oh and I'll make her available if you want her lol. And don't forget to have fun because otherwise its just pointless.

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

"This is just me saying, bugger all those figures, I'm making my own... oh and I'll make her available if you want her lol. And don't forget to have fun because otherwise its just pointless." I'm glad to see the cowboy-cowgirl spirit is still alive.

Here is step 5. Stand your figure up straight, shoulders back and chin up. Then add the animation edgeloops and extract the ears and breasts.

 

 

patorak3d.

I've spent way way way to much time thinking on how to model characters 100% quads n good topology. one day I'm going to right a book about it.

1.My first characters I straight out model it 100% quads. I swear I always ended up with a a few Tri's and it's insanity to model that way.

2 .model low poly count 5000 with a few tri's then SubD one and it's polycount around 20.000 and 100% quads.I think this is a killer way to model characters.

3.just to challenge my self .I wanted a 100% quads polycount 5000.cause I've never seen one .before zBrush was famous I got Z1 just to see a million polycount sphere. I'll never argue I'm not insane.

This is still just a theory I play with from time to time cause I haven't finished yet.

So I broke the mesh in to peaces. cause it's a lot easier to model just a 100% quads part ear ,hand ,foot etc etc then the hole mesh.

and if you balance the mesh the top and bottom of the ear is a mirror n if you need to add topology. find a center line and mirror it second ear. not any line can be a center line.

model the .2 way is a killer fast way to model 100% quad characters.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

erogenesis "have fun" :) agreed

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

"So I broke the mesh in to peaces. cause it's a lot easier to model just a 100% quads part ear ,hand ,foot etc etc then the hole mesh.

and if you balance the mesh the top and bottom of the ear is a mirror n if you need to add topology. find a center line and mirror it second ear. not any line can be a center line.

model the .2 way is a killer fast way to model 100% quad characters." 100% quads, awesome! I'll give it a try. Do you have a step by step diagram on your ears?

 

 

patorak3d .

The balance ear theory to straight out model a 100% quads character .Is just a unproven theory.I have not proven it works.it might not even work. and even if it does work on a simple character. The more complicated the mesh the more difficult it will be.It would be imposable with Chrome. Da Vinci IQ is100 times greater then mine but he's still limited buy quad n tri rules.

best advice I can give. ignore the balance ear theory.

and

Just model a low poly count character ,polycount around 5000 with a few tri's in it.

Then SubD once and it's polycount will be around 20.000 and it will be 100% quads.

I think this is a killer fast way to model 100% quad characters.

there topology suxs but you get the idea. Just make better topology then me ;)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

New tech stuff zBrush n MudBox maybe 3DCoat or some other app's.

Have remesher that maybe could convert a mixed quad n tri mesh to 100% quads.

but last I looked it wasn't good enough for humans for me. maybe I didn't look good enough or maybe one day it will be.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

RorrKonn, you're topology is awesome. I do have the figure down to 4 tri's. 2352 polys and still edgelooping.

 

 

"But yeah I've noticed about this figure circus is that some of these figures seem to be more about technical achievement, some CGI trend, or some vendor catwalk model, instead of being a actual tool to be actively used in a comic book, or movie environment."

---

Agree completely, But like with any other product, it is up to the potential buyer/user to research and determine if a specific figure will be usable for their specific purposes.

For Example as an animator the only thing that matters to me is that the figures rigging conforms to standard bone naming & joint rotational order conventions that will enable easy retargeting of human motion generated from outside sources. BVH, Daz Aniblok,poser Pz2 ,Natural Motion's Endorphin BVH etc).

Every poser/Daz figure from P4 "Dork" & "Posette" up to Mike& Vickie 1,2,3,4 to Genesis 1-2, Conforms to this standard and Character motion is essentially interchangable between them ,with some minor global adjustments of course.

"Antonia" had an exotic new "innovative" rigging that I imagine gave her better bending but made the figure useless for motion retargeting from other sources.

Cant speak about "Dawn" or "Scarlette" as I never tried them.

But the mighty Daz Genesis 3 has exotic new rigging and a new bone based face rig that may have improved the figures compatibility with Game engines. However I am not a Game coder and have no use for G3 as it no longer accepts motion from my various motion systems and the days of manually key framing every single movement by hand are long over and not even practical when doing deadline oriented $$client work$$ that requires Ragdoll physics.

My website

YouTube Channel

G3 wasn't made for games out of the box .DAZ has morph3d.com for games ,different app n characters then ds n genesis.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

RorrKonn posted at 5:07PM Sat, 19 March 2016 - #4261767

G3 wasn't made for games out of the box .DAZ has morph3d.com for games ,different app n characters then ds n genesis.

Well I hope it works out for those who have a need for it.

My website

YouTube Channel

ah ,I don't know. I half to quit playing with every new toy and accomplish something ,even if it's wrong.

My latest disaster that will hit the market as soon as ,ah ,well ,hum ,it's just shaders on it. I still half to make the maps n textures. alt to be done by next Saturday give or take a day or two :)

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Ok ... continuing with Poser ... Here is "Toxic Youth", a rough render of the new Pauline and Paul Teen figures. ...

Oddly enough Paul reminds me a bit of Harry Potter in this render. ...

Boni

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"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

erogenesis posted at 8:58AM Sat, 26 March 2016 - #4261415

I forgot to respond to this. Although realism is something I do strive for when I have time, its not my central ambition here. For me its about entertainment and you don't need hyper-realistic renders for that per se. Herge managed to entertain millions with his simple Ligne Claire style, so I think simple P10 renders should be able to do the same. In the end its about the context and the story of the picture that really matters, and that is something no store can sell. Which brings me to this plateau you're talking about. If you're speaking of plateaus, I think Poser/DS art is going to hit that plateau very soon, where people will cease to be amazed by 3D renders by default, and will get bored of the same old render of Genesis or Vicky that and yet another piece of catalog art slapped together fresh from the store. In fact it might already be happening because me and my friends (also DS users) are feeling the pressure from fans, and its much more about style, composition, or really clever 3D trickery, tweaking and / or actual 3D modelling. It will be more about actual thought-out entertainment, than about the senseless CGI speed record from store release to first customer render, or the so-manyeth dull test render of this or that trending renderer. Test renders can also be done in style, so that you don't bore your fans to death:

Glad you said it so I didn't have to ;-) I'm seeing diminishing returns in each new figure and a sameness to the various renders. I assume that, much like photography, once capturing reality is a given, artists will seek to add their own style to their images. You can view the professional galleries at Art Station or CG society to see the possibilities.

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ghostship2 posted at 2:23PM Wed, 06 April 2016 - #4257616

The only people jumping ship are the vendors who are just following the money trail. I can't blame them either, I would in their shoes.

That is great and i too understand this. BUT why cut off their noses to spite their...well.....pocketbooks? shutting out Poser users as a rich market to your products is plain stupid. Many of the content creators know how or have produced content for both platforms before. why not continue? If DAZ doesn't allow them to sell (or persuades then not to which has humorously been vehemently denied elsewhere ) then why not create the Poser versions under another artist name elsewhere?

The problem runs much deeper. as much as I can see the Genesis figures only being used in D/S their base application afterall, why does DAZ content creation team also refuse to create support content like scenes and props and sets and architecture and weapons and vehicles and nature and hair ALSO ONLY for D/S? It is stuff we should all be able to purchases and use especially as the content is getting more and more sophisticated looking and realistic. I hate seeing a beautifully crafted hair prop, or bunker or sand dune or woodsy knoll offered ONLY in D/S format when i would love to get it to use in my work in Poser. As far as I am concerned their marketing strategy seems flawed and therefore sucks!

Yes Hivewire seems a good option but still way to small and they do not offer support or content for the old DAZ Mil figures? I don't much like dawn or dusk and even if they were nicer I would avoid spending more darn money on still new figures when I have so much invested in the Mil 2 to Mil4 figures already. Maybe as they get overflow of content creators from RDNA for instance who create Poser content I might consider it a viable site to peruse but not yet ready for prime time in my opinion. I have purchased product there however...animals and sets so not totally out my my content universe just not a complete product site. Also the problem with limited content posting there and their very tight TOS like DAZ has been for so long frustrates the hell out of me. I am going to stay here for a while and I am going to really miss RDNA for that and so many other reasons!

shante posted at 7:44PM Wed, 06 April 2016 - #4264444

I would avoid spending more darn money on still new figures when I have so much invested in the Mil 2 to Mil4 figures already.

You answered your own post. Those brand new figures that you won't invest in need props and environments using the same types of materials and fit in those hands. And customers have been rewarding vendors for compatible products. As time to make products is finite, vendors position themselves to make products that will give them a decent return on investment. Making two separate products with 3-4 different materials for small price ultimately isn't worth the effort, so vendors are only choosing one. If you notice when a vendor does put out products for both platforms, the poser version is lagging way behind the DS version in sales.. .so that's why you're seeing more DS-only items flooding the market and why it was important to have something built on the same standard so vendors are only making items once.

If there's a .obj .then bunkers or sand dunes or woodsy knoll are compatible with any app ,some assembly required.

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Male_M3dia posted at 2:40AM Thu, 07 April 2016 - #4264491

shante posted at 7:44PM Wed, 06 April 2016 - #4264444

I would avoid spending more darn money on still new figures when I have so much invested in the Mil 2 to Mil4 figures already.

You answered your own post. Those brand new figures that you won't invest in need props and environments using the same types of materials and fit in those hands. And customers have been rewarding vendors for compatible products. As time to make products is finite, vendors position themselves to make products that will give them a decent return on investment. Making two separate products with 3-4 different materials for small price ultimately isn't worth the effort, so vendors are only choosing one. If you notice when a vendor does put out products for both platforms, the poser version is lagging way behind the DS version in sales.. .so that's why you're seeing more DS-only items flooding the market and why it was important to have something built on the same standard so vendors are only making items once.

Understand from a common sense business pov but from a frustrated long time poser user pov still sucks.

RorrKonn posted at 2:41AM Thu, 07 April 2016 - #4264507

If there's a .obj .then bunkers or sand dunes or woodsy knoll are compatible with any app ,some assembly required.

Damn problem is that damn dson importer sucks and we still need that to get them into poser and if they don't have the right materials/textures that will not work either...I tried it. Have had to return more daz product not compatible with poser as advertised and the dson importer has never worked for me. So whine and cheese wind up being my only remaining options. :)

Let's avoid a software war. There are pros and cons for both. We move on to new things and see where they go ... We all use what we like. Let's settle down.

Boni

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"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

You don't need DSON to import .obj files. Stonemason releases his content as Daz formats & .obj files.

One has to be willing to manually import to poser and apply the textures by hand if necessary.

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