Richardphotos opened this issue on Jan 06, 2017 ยท 24 posts
Richardphotos posted Fri, 06 January 2017 at 7:18 AM
the majority of vendors creates beautiful faces that is very appealing to purchase, but the body for no other way to describe is bland. the buttocks and breast has no character, or detail. as if the promos are out of focus for the body. some products for V4 reminds me of of the blandness of V2 and V3
I pass up purchasing such products even though the face is appealing and as well the SSS mats
I often use Poser tools to change the body, but seems as though the body should have some details
SpookieLilOne posted Fri, 06 January 2017 at 5:55 PM
Are you speaking of their skin or the actual body shape itself?
*~*Jamie*~*
"Life is just a dream on the way to death." ~The Crow: City of Angels
Richardphotos posted Fri, 06 January 2017 at 6:22 PM
body shape. just odd that the vendors would go to so much work for a quality face morph but ignore the body. I have passed up numerous products for that reason
SpookieLilOne posted Fri, 06 January 2017 at 6:25 PM
I am asking because I am curious if you do not mind looking at my store to see if that is something I do. Not fishing for sales here just looking to better myself as a vendor.
*~*Jamie*~*
"Life is just a dream on the way to death." ~The Crow: City of Angels
Male_M3dia posted Sun, 08 January 2017 at 4:33 AM
I would imagine most time, especially with poser figures, use of custom or dialed body shapes will not fit any clothing without poke-through so you're going to get head shapes more often as that doesn't affect or give poke-through in clothing. I'm sure someone will say if you have a Poser version that puts morphs in clothing that would solve it, but the fact is not every one has those versions and the poke-through becomes a vendor support issue when someone can't use the figure with their content or if the shape has bad bends. But this has been an issue for years and some of the newer figures themselves don't have this issue. But then custom body shapes need to be done correctly, with the proper correctives so that they bend correctly in poses as well. Not every vendor has the tools to make proper custom body shapes, so you'll have to rely on descriptions and promos to find out who does that... but I guarantee that there's only one vendor for V4 that has done custom body shapes, and that shape needs custom fits for clothing to work properly.
Biscuits posted Wed, 11 January 2017 at 10:42 AM
It's mainly based on a misconception, that it's hard to fit clothes to custom bodyshapes.
Unfortunate that some, > certainly not all < avoid a custom body shape.
It's like an old tradition that apparently is so baked in the behaviour.
But there is no need to avoid custom body shapes anymore.
Because in Poser it's so easy with the morph tool (which is around a long time already btw) to fit clothing super fast.
And if you use dynamic clothing the custom morphs are shaped automatically in the simulation.
A very good wish!
Male_M3dia posted Wed, 11 January 2017 at 2:46 PM
Biscuits posted at 3:44PM Wed, 11 January 2017 - #4294906
It's mainly based on a misconception, that it's hard to fit clothes to custom bodyshapes.
Unfortunate that some, > certainly not all < avoid a custom body shape.
It's like an old tradition that apparently is so baked in the behaviour.
But there is no need to avoid custom body shapes anymore.
Because in Poser it's so easy with the morph tool (which is around a long time already btw) to fit clothing super fast.
And if you use dynamic clothing the custom morphs are shaped automatically in the simulation.
A very good wish!
As I mentioned which you overlooked, not everyone has those tools and ultimately not going to spend time morph brushing a whole outfit to fit a custom shape. A power user may do it, but most don't and it becomes a support issue. Body shapes still fall to the vendor to support, thus they stick to the body shapes that are supported by most clothing. Note I also mentioned custom shapes need to be properly supported with correctives as a body shape that bends and the mesh breaks is also a support issue and customers that pay for products aren't going to morph brush those either.
Biscuits posted Wed, 11 January 2017 at 3:40 PM
Oh I didn't overlook at all, that's why I said that the Morph Tool is around a long time already, it was even in version 7, we're at version 11 now.
The recent Rendo polls show that the majority of the Poserusers have P9 or up.
So YES Poser users have that tool and the clothroom aswell.
It isn't time consuming with the morph tool, again it's super fast, not only efficient for a whole different body shape but also for posing pokethroughs and such.
Since I use the morph tool in my workflow, I find it very indispensable.
I don't know if you bought Poser, but if you did....
Seriously try the Morph Tool!
It can be an eyeopener for you!
Male_M3dia posted Wed, 11 January 2017 at 4:20 PM
Biscuits posted at 5:17PM Wed, 11 January 2017 - #4294930
Oh I didn't overlook at all, that's why I said that the Morph Tool is around a long time already, it was even in version 7, we're at version 11 now.
The recent Rendo polls show that the majority of the Poserusers have P9 or up.
So YES Poser users have that tool and the clothroom aswell.
It isn't time consuming with the morph tool, again it's super fast, not only efficient for a whole different body shape but also for posing pokethroughs and such.
Since I use the morph tool in my workflow, I find it very indispensable.
I don't know if you bought Poser, but if you did....
Seriously try the Morph Tool!
It can be an eyeopener for you!
I have poser, but I used to sell mainly poser figure content and this has always been an issue with poser figures. Customers are not going to do what you are saying despite the tools available, as they will see this a vendor issue if their figure does not fit clothing, they're not going to spend their time morph brushing an outfit that they paid for. They want it to fit directly from their runtimes. Vendors aren't going to provide custom body shapes for clothing as nothing will fit. One person has made custom body shapes and customers still requested fits from the vendors, not grab the morph brush. That's a something a power user would do so solve an issue. You have to think as a common customer, and they're not going to waste time fixing their content to work. It is what it is. This is why a lot of people are switching to other figures that allows them to use new and custom shapes without all of the end user fixing.
Custom figures require corrections, which are basically JCMs in the figure and that's also the main issue why no one makes custom shapes.
Biscuits posted Wed, 11 January 2017 at 4:39 PM
Well ...I tried to be kind and share my knowledge to make people's workflow easier and tell them not be so afraid of breaking out of ancient 3D traditions, regarding the custom morphs.
I'm not the kind that presumes to know what customers do or not do...cause 3D-ers can think for themselves they are quite clever!
But...hey if you don't want to use a handy feature, just don't use it!
Fine by me ;)
Don't they have the best doughnuts at Rendo...
Male_M3dia posted Wed, 11 January 2017 at 7:08 PM
I'm not trying to be mean and I get what you're saying. But we're more than 10 years in on V4, we're way past the dated technique of morph brush, not when products like morphing clothes did it a lot quicker and people still didn't use that product as much.
Biscuits posted Thu, 12 January 2017 at 6:59 AM
To summarize :)
This is The MarketPlace Wishing Well Forum
We have a customer with a wish that character creators make more truly original custom BODY morphs in their products, instead of dialing existing sliders.
With the solutions that Poser and DS give regardless which figure, it's possible for users to fit their clothes of their choice to these custom body morphs.
Another option is if you are so lucky to own Zbrush, you can GOZ back and forth and achieve your results that way to fit clothing.
@Richardphotos Although apparently not everyone approves of your wish...I for one I'm very grateful for the reminder.
I look forward making a nice detailed HD Body Morph if I find some time!
Thank You!
Male_M3dia posted Thu, 12 January 2017 at 8:25 PM
Yes, this is the Wishing Well forum, but as you are not a character maker and I am, we do need to set expectations. That said there are lots of custom body shapes available for the genesis characters as there aren't any issues with getting shapes to fit clothing as it was a barrier with V4. There aren't many custom body shapes for V4 as there aren't many custom head morph makers either. However as you said, there is the GoZ if the user has that and zbrush and they can make their own custom shapes, I think that would probably be the best option for a user not satisfied with what is being offered.
wimvdb posted Fri, 13 January 2017 at 5:18 AM
Biscuits not only makes character morphs, texture sets, hair, clothing, props and merchant resources. Just check her store and freestuff. Also, most of the characters in her promos are morphs of her own creation, Not only for V4, but for Dawn, Pauline and Star as well. I think she is perfectly capable of making her own judgement on this.
Besides that, there have been a lot of vendors who made body morphs for use in Poser such as Blackhearted, Aery Soul, Adam Twaites, Erogenesis, Meipe, Lyrra, Darkworld, DTG, Kaleya, Exnem, Circleman to name just a few.
Adapting clothes to morphed shapes is pretty easy with the morphbrush and usually takes just a few seconds with the fitting brush and it is a tool which has been present in Poser for a few years now.
Male_M3dia posted Fri, 13 January 2017 at 12:19 PM
wimvdb posted at 1:15PM Fri, 13 January 2017 - #4295014
Biscuits not only makes character morphs, texture sets, hair, clothing, props and merchant resources. Just check her store and freestuff. Also, most of the characters in her promos are morphs of her own creation, Not only for V4, but for Dawn, Pauline and Star as well. I think she is perfectly capable of making her own judgement on this.
Besides that, there have been a lot of vendors who made body morphs for use in Poser such as Blackhearted, Aery Soul, Adam Twaites, Erogenesis, Meipe, Lyrra, Darkworld, DTG, Kaleya, Exnem, Circleman to name just a few.
Adapting clothes to morphed shapes is pretty easy with the morphbrush and usually takes just a few seconds with the fitting brush and it is a tool which has been present in Poser for a few years now.
Right and you recommended technique that if was actually used, you'd see more custom shapes for in the marketplace for V4. And I've sure you've also read the many times Blackhearted complained about fits and his shapes as well because end users aren't going to spend time morph brushing entire outfits. That said, a good chunk of those vendors you just named are making content, including custom shapes, for Genesis 3. It is what it is.
wimvdb posted Fri, 13 January 2017 at 12:33 PM
The morph brush is used by a lot of Poser user and is one of their favourite features. You should really try it if you have Poser
ghostman posted Fri, 13 January 2017 at 12:39 PM
And here we go again with Male_M3dia worshipping Genesis and trying to start a DS/Poser war. In other words nothing new to this guy.
"Dream like you'll live forever. Live like you'll die tomorrow."
shvrdavid posted Fri, 13 January 2017 at 2:35 PM
One of my Morph Brush tutorials has had Thousand upon Thousands of views. I have answered Thousands of questions about it as well, literally. I find it odd that people claim to know what the average Poser user uses in Poser, and have no way to base that past P6... Some people, ** claim to know everything about it....**
All you have to do is look at the galleries and you we see that the morph brush gets far more use than most will ever give it credit. Or one could look at the interest in tutorials I have done on custom body shapes, the morphs brush, etc...
Why don't people just come out and be a bit more direct??? Everyone can see right thru what some continue to try to do, in just about every thread they post in.
This thread was a vendor asking a question. Some see no reason to do so, using Genesis, it is your solution for everything............. I see a huge difference here, and it is nothing new,... The difference, is that Poser doesn't have to use the P6 tech anymore.
And at the same time, I see someone making it very apparent they don't know much about Poser at all. Why are they even here? Oh, wait, to promote Studio in every thread possible, How could I forget that... People spreading dis information about Poser tech, that they know very little about. Due to changes in the TOS, I cant really say for sure who that might be... It could be me !!!!
In the beginning of the thread it was stated that Poser users don't have that tool. Um, yes they do,
Someone mentioned that complex morphs are too complex to set up, create, and get to work.... Since when?,
Someone went as far as claiming users may not have the tool, and again, **it comes with Poser................... **
The 2 min I spent setting this up.... Wow, that was freaking hard....
But again, some don't know crap about the newer versions of Poser or they would not make these claims.
You can make wild morphs for a figure in Poser and the cloths will follow.,
I am sure some will argue that to death, all while not having a clue what I mean, or how to even do it Poser to begin with.
Some peoples lack of knowledge of the tools that come with Poser, from P9, is very apparent to anyone that has even used them once..
Face it, some are on a mission to destroy Poser...One thread at a time. Anything anyone asks or suggests, someone points to Studio as the answer. If someone asks a Poser question, I would think a Poser answer is what they are looking for. Wait, some don't see it that way, not in the least.... For the life of me, I cant think of a good Studio answer here. I thought about it for at least 2 seconds, and came up with a blank. Don't get me wrong. I have Studio, have helped develop base figures for it (not just morphs), content etc. But what do I know about it..... I even a member of the Nvidia Developer thing, you know, where we raised Cain about the Series 10 GPUs lack of driver support, Iray, and that other engine render engine they also make that had issues because of that... But what do I know about any of that... Geeesss what was I thinking.....
Next, someone is going to tell me that HD morphs are too hard to make for Poser, and that everyone should all jump on Studio and make them in that... Oh, wait a min.... Hmm, how to do that in Studio... I better ask someone that knows Studio really well how to do that... brb...
Oh, just get and learn Zbrush, problem solved... How convenient for Studio and Poser users, having to get yet another program just to do something....
Oh, look... HD morphs made entirely in Poser and the cloth even fits? Who would have thought that was even possible??????
I keep hearing that you cant do that, its too hard, the clothes wont fit, there are not tools to do so, I don't know how to use them....
Holy shit............ Who would have thought you could even do that in Poser with such an antiquated tool.... You can make and edit every LOD level you want to put in the morph, right in Poser..... You can even export it? Wow, that sucked. Took me almost a min to figure that out.... Some people would never tell anyone it is even possible, or how easy it is to do. Simply because it does not fit their agenda....
Wait, don't tell anyone you can do that in Poser, lets keep that a secret, K??
Now, people may go on about how I am an advanced user and know all of Poser very well.... Go ahead.... They would be right as well, I do know the Poser very well. I'm not to shabby in Studio either... And I can tell you that the average Poser user knows the tools included better than some might assume. If they had no interest in it, no one would look at my tutorials on it, or even bother to pm me questions about, now would they....,
Of course, in terms of the TOS, All of this is merely my opinion on the matter. You would be surprised what people can see in others, as soon as they open their mouth.... No one else is thou....
Now if you find this offense, against the TOS, etc. go cry to management about it.......... Mods and Admins, feel free to delete this post, delete my account, whatever you see fit. Me coming in here with facts based on years of experience with Poser should not be tolerated in a forum full of bias and deception..... It's ludicrous to think that would be put up with here, simply ludicrous....
Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->
Male_M3dia posted Sat, 14 January 2017 at 8:16 AM
ghostman posted at 9:06AM Sat, 14 January 2017 - #4295046
And here we go again with Male_M3dia worshipping Genesis and trying to start a DS/Poser war. In other words nothing new to this guy.
No, here ghostman goes making an attack. The subject was head morphs with bland bodies, and being a person that does character-based products for almost 8 years in BOTH DAZ Studio and Poser, unlike you, I gave my opinion why this might not happen. This is based on actually doing this and the problems you have doing it properly. If you have the same experience on the subject, feel free to share that instead of posts like this. I think you'll find you simply can't argue facts of what's happening in terms of what's offered in content, not old methods of getting content to fit that hasn't caught on. If people have been recommending it that long and it hasn't caught on, it isn't a good solution for end users. Take it for what it is.
It's great having this reunion, but I'm going to need you all to respond like adults in this discussion or head back to the "official" SM forum and fight there.
KristiS posted Sun, 15 January 2017 at 12:56 PM
This is NOT the place for this kind of behavior.
This is a suggestion forum, not a place to talk about what Poser and or Daz does or does not do. This is a place for Vendors to go to try and create what members are wanting to see in the Marketplace.
I am not going to let threads get high-jacked and get to the point of Vendors not wanting to come in here.
I have issued warnings to quite a few of you and the next step would be a 3 day ban. I really do not want to do that.
When someone suggests something in this forum, you can comment to help them however, behavior such as this will not be tolerated.
Kristi
Community Relations Specialist
This is your life - your platform - your stage - your story
Lyrra posted Sun, 29 January 2017 at 1:10 PM
Many vendors ignore the body when making custom shapes because for a long time it was difficult to fit clothing to new body shapes and so it was not an important selling feature for content. Since many artists don't like to change their habits, this means that they don't think user's want custom bodies.
However custom body shape are no longer an issue. DAZ built autofitting in their program for their native figures for this reason. However newer versions of Poser have the morph transfer tool which does the same thing with more control and does very nicely in most cases (Heavy is generally a lost cause). If you have an older version of poser the utility 'morphing clothes' also transfers morph shapes into clothing. All three options take about 15 seconds or less.
So .. you should try emailing the vendor and nicely asking for custom body options for their figures. If the vendors know you will buy character X if there is also a custom body for it, they are more likely to make it. I stress, ask NICELY. Artists are delicate creatures.
LM
McGrandpa posted Thu, 02 February 2017 at 12:13 PM
Lyrra, you summed it up nicely. WE (Poser and DS) users have long had several options. shvrdavid said a lot of useful stuff too, and I looked over at the toolbar in PP 2014 and spied The Morph Tool. And tried it on an old aircraft model I had loaded. And it definitely made a dent! Great start, Obvious Activity. Chemistry teachers, hand out the goggles and gloves now! ;o)
I'd like to see the custom bodies in the character sets too. As it is, I have to keep a collection handy of saved "morph poses" that I've removed the heads from. Yes, these are all dialed morphs, and don't do much if the morph packs aren't loaded into the Figure first. But hey, custom morphs that come with the character set wouldn't need that right? APPLIES to ALL DAZ/Poser Figures, methinks. Right?
My 66th Birthday PC Build (July 1, 2020) : named BadMoonRYZEN!, W10Pro x64, Octal Core RYZEN7 X3700 4.05 GHz, 64GB DDR4 RAM, GeForce RTX 3060 - 12GB GDDR6, PP2014, PP 11, P12, PS-CS4 Extended & Vue 2024.
McG.
Lyrra posted Fri, 03 February 2017 at 11:27 AM
Actually a lot of the DAZ morphs use the same names across the figures and poser is a literalist. So if you save a plain old MOR (dial spinning) pose without any of the INJection coding in it , then yes you can apply it to any old figure and any dial that matches will spin. Sometimes to good effect, but if nothing else good for a laugh. :) This is especially true of expression poses ... slap those onto any figure you want and see what happens. I've had expression poses meant for v3 work on m4 so its at least worth a try.
Proper INJection poses have special coding under the hood, or ought to, and those will work only on the figure they belong to for the most part. However, not all INJection poses are created equal, so when in doubt pop open the pz2 in a text editor. if you see anything more complicated than a list of bodyparts channels like xrotate with numbers following, then it is probably a proper injection pose. Certainly anything that has a geometry call (a line of text with a directory path in it like runtime/poser11/!DAZ/deltas and etc) is an injection.
So if you have a collection of characters with nice bodies, load them into your figure, zero out the head morphs, and save the body only as a pose file. Then you can apply and then load your head of choice. Or, if you feel brave, you can pop the pz2 open in PoserFileEditor and delete the section for the Head bodypart (and eyes) and resave it. Then you should be able to load that pose over any head you like, assuming all the morphs it wants are loaded in the body.
If the body is custom morphs though, like GND4 by Blackhearted, then you will need to continue using its own INJection. And for the faint of heart ... yes I do have a magnet set to help fit clothing to that one, since the changes are so extreme :)
Lyrra
Frequency3D posted Tue, 28 March 2017 at 8:24 PM
Interesting. My take on this is more from a presentation point of view. How to sell and present these things properly without disappointing customers?
I have some thoughts on this... hopefully something constructive.
Everyone is right! There ARE tools and they could be used more. But at the same time it is true that mismatched customer expectations and complaints/demands for returns are a big waste of time for most vendors. And many customers are not prepared to put in any extra work without warning. So it is important to be very, very clear with what you are selling.
So.. what I would probably do if I was a character vendor and I really wanted to make a custom sculpted body morph... would be be to provide more than one option AND try to educate the customer at the same time.
So what you could do would be to provide both a bland/morph dial spin shape (fits all clothing, just something quick) and a PRO sculpted shape (advanced users/must read the instructions/morph brush skill/fitting room skill required etc.) Call it something like PRO/Advanced etc to make it stand out in the right way. Make this VERY clear already in the product description, this is important. Then provide a detailed tutorial to go with the product on how to fit the clothing/work with the morph brush or what have you.
The main issue as I see it is that it is super important to tell the customer clearly what to expect from your product, and what skills might be required. I run into similar issues often when I have to give a refund to a DAZ only customer even though I have made it clear that the product only works in Poser. A waste of both their time and mine plus extra work for staff. Now I am putting 'Poser' in about 5 places (including the thumbnail, and it finally seems to work. ;)
Now that I am thinking about it, this all inspires me to put something like 'Basic knowledge of the Poser Cloth Room is recommended' on future dynamic products...
Finally I have to say that the Poser Morph brush tool is underestimated! It is fantastic for creating clothing morphs and more powerful than a lot of people realize.
Just a thought... cough perhaps the people asking for very detailed body shapes would be those who use a bit less clothing (or none) on their figures... in which case it wouldn't be much of an issue. I just think vendors want ways of making sure not to get returns, tons of questions or bad reviews. ;)
So if staff have ideas on how to best present ANY products that may require certain user skills/tools, or only work in certain situations, this would be very helpful of course!