thefixer opened this issue on Jun 04, 2017 · 62 posts
thefixer posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 3:37 AM Online Now!
Sorry, not trying to start a war, just want opinions.... I've been using Poser since version 4 and I currently have Poser 11. I'm seeing more and more stuff for Genesis figures that can only properly be used in DS [as far as I know, correct me pls if I'm wrong], and less and less stuff for my old favourites of Victoria and Mike 4.... I don't want to move to DS as it would mean a massive upheaval as I have years of content sitting in my Poser runtimes.....
Anyone think there will come a time when SM and Daz cooperate and make Daz figures compatible with Poser again..?
I see more and more of my artist friends moving away from Poser and new artists seem to go to DS too now, it's not looking good from my perspective....
Please no nastiness, it's not needed, I'm genuinely wondering what will happen to Poser in say 5 years time, or will 11 be the last version..?
Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.
ghostman posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 4:33 AM
Personally I'm going to support Poser to the best of my ability. I don't care much for DS and the genesis figures.So I'm hoping that the new tech people will come up with some new shiny cool stuff for Poser on the next release. :)
"Dream like you'll live forever. Live like you'll die tomorrow."
infinity10 posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 4:36 AM
I'm really fine with Poser because - well, I'm used to using it, and I can model my own geometries - to a limit, of course. So I make stuff I need for my own scenes, mainly. If I see good relevant content going on sale for either Poser or DS, I'll pick those up and use them sometime, for sure. I don't feel a push away from Poser, nor do I feel a pull toward DS.
Eternal Hobbyist
adzan posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 4:59 AM
It's a hard question to answer. That's for sure.
Currently - Smith Micro are hiring a new Poser software team as they moved their Graphics department to a new location - due to this we have to assume that there won't be a new Poser any time soon - and with a new software team we won't know what direction Smith Micro will take Poser in.
Will Daz3D and Smith Micro cooperate and make Daz figures compatible with Poser again..?
Daz3D decided to stop making the Genesis figures compatible with Poser. You can still use Genesis 1 and 2 in Poser with the DSON Plug in if you wish to.
It would be up to Daz3D if they wanted to make a new figure that is compatible with Poser - but as they make their own software I don't think they would feel the need.
If enough Poser customers asked them for a new Poser figure - and I mean many thousands - they might consider it but I doubt it.
V4 and M4 are 10 year old figures now, so it's quite surprising they still have support from the community.
I don't have an answer for you to be honest. - I've also struggled with this conundrum and have considered moving entirely to Daz Studio - but I love Poser more lol
You could try one of the newer Poser figures - Umm - or not lol. There are supposed to be some new ones eventually ?
You could learn and use Daz Studio as well as Poser.
You could keep using V4 and M4.
You could make cakes and watch tv.
-Timberwolf- posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 5:01 AM
It is a Poser crisis for sure. Like in most cases, there is a chance for coming out of this crisis stronger, than before. My prediction is, that we won't hear of Poser for a long time, until all of a sudden a new Poser will be anounced. If the right decisions are made, it could be a great ressurection.
-renapd- posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 5:59 AM Online Now! Site Admin
Personally I'm all Poser 100%.
New figures is not what makes a software and that's what DAZ is trying to persuade us of! If you take FULL advantage of Poser's capabilities you can come up with incredible results!
Same as the fixer I have endless libraries of items and support for my generation4 figures (V4-M4). I'm not willing to start investing again and again and again for the same stuff (as DAZ wishes us to) AND also struggle and learn a new software that I hate its interface (especially the texturing tab that means the most to me!)
Poser 11 was not the best SM could do - I will be the first one to admit it! The non full backwards compatibility was a huge mistake in my opinion, that's why I've stuck to PoserPro2014 that's the best Poser version from my point of view!
Most Poser users by now are people of a certain age - same as me! We do not like having to learn what we know all over again in a different way, we do not fall easily for the advertising illusions of new figures. V4 - again in my own opinion! - after a decade of full support and improvements has nothing to envy of DS latest ones. No Genesis figure will ever get the support that V4 got in this decade that covers all types of products characters-clothing-accessories-hair... you name it!
Yes, DS renders SCENES better (if you have the patience to wait overnight) but it's figures that count the most and to me none ever will reach even close the majority of morphs and versatility that V4 offers! My two cents!
Rena
SamTherapy posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 6:03 AM
Nah, there's still life in the old dog yet.
Me, I just can't get me head around Studio. Laurie has helped me out a lot and I'm still finding it hard going. Poser is something I can use without trouble so it's still my weapon of choice.
If I could get used to Studio, I'd use it. I'd also use Poser. Whatever works for you is good.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
RedPhantom posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 6:31 AM Site Admin
With the new poser team, there's hope content will improve, though we won't know for a bit yet. I've tried DS but it lacks crucial features I need. I think many feel the same way.
Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage
Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10
wolf359 posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 8:01 AM
As long as one single living human has a computer running some version of poser, then poser will never be truly "finished"!!!
Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 were "born" with the built-in ability to wear every single piece of clothing and skin map made for V4. Now add the years of new Daz Studio Content made for them and their total catalogue eclipses V4's by a wide margin.
adzan posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 8:09 AM
The demise of Poser has been predicted so many times over the years that one of these days just by chance, or sods or Murphys law it will meet it's demise and I'm sure all the sooth sayers will say "told you so", even though I think it's been said every year since Poser 3 and Poser has changed companies quite a few times in as many years and is still going lol.
Clang, Clang - Bring out your dead - Grin
I'd much rather have a new Male figure than a new Poser, I never really liked M4, he was odd lol
wolf359 posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 8:15 AM
If smith Micro wishes to support someone else's third party figure tech' Smith Micro needs to alter THEIR software to accommodate this.
Take Genesis 3 for example: We Iclone users always had a built in one click retartgeting daz genesis template in the Iclone 3DXchange application.
This made it possible to apply those amazing realtime Iclone motions to our Daz genesis 1 and genesis 2 figures.
Genesis 3's pointlessly exotic rigging scheme broke compatibility with this Iclone template ,just as it broke your DSON importer.
We animators Complained..Loudly.
Today Genesis 3 Works Fine in Iclone 6 and above,...why??
Because Reallusion Decided They wanted support G3 and altered Their Program to accomplish this with no input/help from Daz inc.
This is the way it works for everyone
Boni posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 8:23 AM
I'm a Poser loyalist. The points made here are very interesting and on topic ... and non-combative. Thank you folks.
Boni
"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork
Miss B posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 8:54 AM
I started in 3D with Bryce, as I was more interested in landscape scenes than portraiture, and the Bryce forum here at Renderosity was my first ever 3D forum I visited on a regular basis.
That said, 4 1/2 years later a friend introduced me to Poser 5, DAZ3D and RDNA, and I liked Poser, but my old Win98 SE desktop at the time didn't, so it froze and crashed often. Shortly thereafter I tried DAZStudio 2 on my then new laptop, and liked it, and when my old desktop died, I stuck with DS2 because I was having less issues with it. I then upgraded to DS 3 Advanced, and eventually DS 4.0 Pro with the intro of Genesis 1, as I liked the idea of a unisex figure I could use as I wished. Unfortunately, by then I was tired of DAZ3D's constant "updating" the same old products they had been through each version of Vicky and Mike, so never got into Genesis 2 or Genesis 3.
I'm still a huge fan of the generation 4 characters, though the gals more than the guys, but I got back to Poser with version 9 when HiveWire introduced Dawn about 4 years ago, and then Dusk. I'm still using V4, Steph4 and a few of my older characters, but I haven't upgraded my DS to the current version, and don't see any reason why I need to, as I can use anything in my old DS 3A Runtime in Poser 9, as well as my newer Poser Pro 11. Since PP11 is my first Pro version of Poser, I can't really compare it to older versions like PP2014, so I don't know all the issues that weren't improved, or now seem broken. I'm still learning things I've never had a chance to play with before, and I hope P12/PP12 does improve the couple/three issues I do have but, even though I can use either/both software products, I'm going to be mostly using Poser from now on.
_______________
OK . . . Where's my chocolate?
A_Sunbeam posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 9:07 AM
There are some good morphs and clothes in the Genesis range - which would be nice to have for my Poser work. But for what I produce it doesn't matter to me how old the Victorias and Mikes are. I still use A3, H3 and M3 as well as V4, M4 and H4, and of course quite a few robots, some of which must go back to Poser 4 (Chomper springs to mind). Until SM produce a new version of Poser I shall potter on with what I have.
Nails60 posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 9:24 AM
I'm a fairly new Poser user, only started about 2 years ago. I had tried DAZ (version 4.6 I think) but couldn't really get the hang of it. Perhaps it is an age thing but I find Poser's more traditional interface (some might say old fashioned) easier to use, more like the interfaces of software I've been brought up on, before graphic designers rather than programmers got hold of them and started hiding buttons behind logo's etc to make them look cool! I've tried DAZ since and found it a bit easier to understand, maybe later versions are easier, or maybe it's because I understand 3d software a bit better, but still prefer Poser.
But even in the 2 years I've been using Poser my V4 and M4 libraries are pretty full, so I'm not too worried about little Poser clothing/characters being made for them, as I only buy stuff for them that is very cheap or very good. For example looking through my wish list here the only stuff currently in it for either are those Napoleonic sets for M4 by Renapd that weren't in the last sale.
But there is still plenty of stuff being made for Poser, just look at the current Dawn, Dusk, Baby Luna release waves here, and I never find the limit on content I buy to be the amount available rather the amount I can afford to spend.
tonyvilters posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 9:42 AM
a) Been Posering for more then 20 years in the good old Poser 1.
b) Been creating stuff, vertex by vertex, in a very old tiny and completely obsolete by now 3D app =>anim8or
c) Seen all the comes and goes and hypes over the many years.
d) Yes, Poser is now a victim of a mother company in trouble and hoping to survive
Poser is a good app. It's only problem has always been that "other vendor sites" make better content.
And the customer goes to the better content. Want to render something? Well, you need something nice to render. => Simple and understandable.
Only the best of the best new content can "save" an eventual future Poser version.
For those that want to enhance the current content?
I created the "Poser2Blender2Poser" series on YouTube under tonyvilters starting with the correct import-export settings between both apps in Video1.
Poser2Blender2Poser 1: The correct Import and Export settings.
RobZhena posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 10:31 AM
With Poser Pro 2014 or 11, you can rig Genesis 3 clothing to work with your Poser figures. I do that all the time because DAZ unloads some really well-made kit for extremely low prices in its sales, and I export the obj and rig them for Pauline, Paul, and Genesis 2 in Poser. And I just did the same for Maisie. Try doing that the other direction. Poser is a tool, not just a render engine.
Helos posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 11:10 AM
I'm using Poser since 1996 and have started with Poser 2. Because I began on Macs I liked all the times up till now the "old fashioned" Macish interfaces (and not the PCish that DAZ|Studio has). I'm working with all characteres (M1/2, Gen.2, Gen.3 and Gen.4 to Genesis 1/2 by DAZ) that look good. My archives of Poser stuff are 3 Terabyte big and I'm willing to use it.
This is a render of M2 with an old texture by Predator2K in 2001:
Henning
thefixer posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 11:37 AM Online Now!
Wow, many thanks for all the replies......really appreciate it... It's good to know that others are feeling my thoughts too.....For my own part, I hope to see Poser flourish into the future, but the one thing I really hope for is that they come up with a really good set of figures sometime...;) Thank you all, I can go back into retirement again now.....
Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.
wolf359 posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 12:31 PM
" Try doing that the other direction. Poser is a tool, not just a render engine."
Try doing what in the other direction ??..import an obj file and rig it in Daz studio??
Yeah the Autofit feature does exactly that
Thats how I make ALL of my Daz genesis clothing
I model in maxon C4D
Export .obj to DAz studio
Click 2 buttons and I have a conformer that
Will Automatically change shape with the character...Not just a render engine
wolf359 posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 12:31 PM
SAMS3D posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 12:51 PM
Wow, a lot of good information, not sure if Poser is finished, as you ask. But I am a lot like you in the history. I started with Poser 4, went all the way up to current version today of Poser. However, as much as I Know how to manipulate Poser, I decided to give Daz3d Studia a try. I read all the tutorials and help guides while learning, asked question from some of the best image creators, took a good 2 weeks to get a basic understanding, then went forward at a good pace.
Now that being said, I now have the abilities to use both programs, which I like personally. I still use Poser because it is an old friend and I know what to expect, however I have a new friend now and enjoy learning new techniques, and I really do believe Daz3d Studio is an incredible piece of software, and it is FREE, that carries weight. Iray renders super fast, if your computer has the good components to carry it.
So whether Poser is going away or not, I am ready to use both programs and will be quite happy with them both, being able to use old models and new models in both,(with the exception of Genesis 3).
If you have the time and space and computer power, I feel opening your abilities to both softwares can benefit you.
wolf359 posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 1:02 PM
DCArt posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 3:22 PM
RobZhena posted at 4:21PM Sun, 04 June 2017 - #4306723
With Poser Pro 2014 or 11, you can rig Genesis 3 clothing to work with your Poser figures. I do that all the time because DAZ unloads some really well-made kit for extremely low prices in its sales, and I export the obj and rig them for Pauline, Paul, and Genesis 2 in Poser. And I just did the same for Maisie. Try doing that the other direction. Poser is a tool, not just a render engine.
Not sure if you are aware, but if you go to PhilC's site, he has released a Wardrobe Wizard converter for Maisie.
RobZhena posted Sun, 04 June 2017 at 3:39 PM
Thanks for the info on WW!
-Timberwolf- posted Mon, 05 June 2017 at 7:07 AM
Nobody, realy wants Poser to be finished. Personaly I just want it to be better. I'd like it to be on top of the modern times. And I do think Poser's stock figures are important, for they are a tech demo. They should represent the latest Poser technologie. So when a stock Poser figure has bending issues and is pushed out of the door, what should I think about the whole app? To alter a well known quote here: " make Poser great again". ;)
wolf359 posted Mon, 05 June 2017 at 7:55 AM
The "bending issues" have repeatedly proven to be less important than the figures physical attractiveness as defined by the Northern European ideal.
Lets be frank about it.
The default Genesis Females are tall, Pretty white women before you even start adding morphs&really high quality skin maps etc.
Pauline,Alison ,Sydney etc were generally considered"not pretty" ( and I am being charitable here)
All of the Nerdy Mcnerd technobabble about better joints has never helped a female poser figure that failed to meet that standard ( remember Antonia?)
adzan posted Mon, 05 June 2017 at 1:18 PM
I see that Smith Micro will be at Siggraph in Los Angeles at the end of July, perhaps if someone is attending they could ambush them and ask what the future holds for Poser.
Coffee, cakes and doughnuts are usually a good starting point for bribery 
If they remain tight lipped, threaten them with naked dork renders 
DreaminGirl posted Mon, 05 June 2017 at 1:58 PM
adzan posted at 8:57PM Mon, 05 June 2017 - #4306819
I see that Smith Micro will be at Siggraph in Los Angeles at the end of July, perhaps if someone is attending they could ambush them and ask what the future holds for Poser.
Coffee, cakes and doughnuts are usually a good starting point for bribery
Someone should ambush them, and hold them for ransom until they promise to work with erogenesis >:0
EClark1894 posted Mon, 05 June 2017 at 5:30 PM
wolf359 posted at 6:27PM Mon, 05 June 2017 - #4306785
The "bending issues" have repeatedly proven to be less important than the figures physical attractiveness as defined by the Northern European ideal.
Lets be frank about it.
The default Genesis Females are tall, Pretty white women before you even start adding morphs&really high quality skin maps etc.
Pauline,Alison ,Sydney etc were generally considered"not pretty" ( and I am being charitable here)
All of the Nerdy Mcnerd technobabble about better joints has never helped a female poser figure that failed to meet that standard ( remember Antonia?)
What do you think would happen to the Poser figures if SM truly believed Poser's continued existence rode on them?
WandW posted Mon, 05 June 2017 at 9:25 PM
wolf359 posted at 10:22PM Mon, 05 June 2017 - #4306739
Poser 11 Digital download is on sale for $65 USD atm
Considering how much I've actually used Poser 11, I feel like a sucker for paying $175 when it was first released... 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
wolf359 posted Tue, 06 June 2017 at 12:58 PM
That is a hypothetical query predicated on a SM policy change that has such a low probability, that it does not reach the point of even being useful, speculation.
Smith Micro has access to these forums& Galleries and Stores. They have read the various customer reactions,over several years, to Alison,Ryan Sydney Simon,Rex ,Roxy Paul Pauline.
It is Clear that they Simply Do not consider the popularity of their Native figures, a factor in the overall success of poser.
EClark1894 posted Tue, 06 June 2017 at 3:25 PM
R_Hatch posted Wed, 07 June 2017 at 2:22 AM
Has anyone seen the direction Blender's viewport is headed? More importantly, has anyone at Smith Micro seen it? I'm among the hopeful who truly wish to see Poser thrive, but Poser 11 has really soured me - I'm back to Poser Pro 2014 until I see solid evidence that G2F+DSON works properly in Poser 11 (is anyone using Genesis 2 Female successfully in P11 with clothes+hair?). Poser 12 is going to have to be absolutely mind-blowing for me to upgrade for any more than $50, considering what I spent on the P11Pro that I can't use.
@Smith Micro: you don't consider it important to make your own high-quality figures? That's absolutely fine, but you NEED to support DAZ figures, or you're going to see your userbase shrink (even more). The loyalists should be taken care of as well, but not to the exclusion of those of us who need better functionality to justify spending our hard-earned money on your software.
I was actually lying when I said Poser 12 needs to be mind-blowing; I actually only require two things personally: upgrade the openGL viewport to more modern standards, and fix DSON support. But then again, my mind will be blown if they actually manage to do those things 
wolf359 posted Wed, 07 June 2017 at 7:58 AM
"Im back to Poser Pro 2014 until I see solid evidence that G2F+DSON works properly in Poser 11 (is anyone using Genesis 2 Female successfully in P11 with clothes+hair?) ......@Smith Micro: you don't consider it important to make your own high-quality figures? That's absolutely fine, but you NEED to support DAZ figures, or you're going to see your userbase shrink (even more). The loyalists should be taken care of as well, ."
One must remember that supporting the Daz figures involves more than just getting a functional Daz female into poser. Content development for the G2 female has effectively ceased except for non affiliated content makers, like myself,who prefers the Genesis 2 figures and make my own clothing to render in C4D with C4D mats.( see pic)
Going forward All of the DAZ content will have IRay Materials for Genesis 3 and the inevitable Genesis 4
People want the latest figures&content.
The reality is this:
The Daz studio user base is not retrievable.. we are NOT coming back to poser. The self proclaimed "poser loyalists"are relatively static demographic who don't actually contribute to growth in market share.
and why would a total newbie choose to $$$buy$$$ poser and settle for an older DSON imported G2 female with diminishing support.
When he /she could start with the latest FREE Daz studio and the latest Genesis Figures and content.
RobZhena posted Wed, 07 June 2017 at 7:03 PM
R_Hatch posted at 7:58PM Wed, 07 June 2017 - #4306943
Has anyone seen the direction Blender's viewport is headed? More importantly, has anyone at Smith Micro seen it? I'm among the hopeful who truly wish to see Poser thrive, but Poser 11 has really soured me - I'm back to Poser Pro 2014 until I see solid evidence that G2F+DSON works properly in Poser 11 (is anyone using Genesis 2 Female successfully in P11 with clothes+hair?). Poser 12 is going to have to be absolutely mind-blowing for me to upgrade for any more than $50, considering what I spent on the P11Pro that I can't use.
I use Genesis 2 content in Poser Pro 11 all the time. I convert everything to Poser native so DSON enters my workflow only once during the conversion (and if I export a cr2 from DS not at all). As I indicated earlier, I also covert Genesis 3 content to use with other figures in Poser.
R_Hatch posted Wed, 07 June 2017 at 9:11 PM
wolf359 posted at 7:53PM Wed, 07 June 2017 - #4306964
One must remember that supporting the Daz figures involves more than just getting a functional Daz female into poser. Content development for the G2 female has effectively ceased except for non affiliated content makers, like myself,who prefers the Genesis 2 figures and make my own clothing to render in C4D with C4D mats.( see pic)
Going forward All of the DAZ content will have IRay Materials for Genesis 3 and the inevitable Genesis 4
People want the latest figures&content.
The reality is this:
The Daz studio user base is not retrievable.. we are NOT coming back to poser. The self proclaimed "poser loyalists"are relatively static demographic who don't actually contribute to growth in market share.
and why would a total newbie choose to $$$buy$$$ poser and settle for an older DSON imported G2 female with diminishing support.
When he /she could start with the latest FREE Daz studio and the latest Genesis Figures and content.
I should have stated that the DSON compatibility fix/restoration would definitely need to include Genesis 3, as well as be kept up to date as much as possible for G4, etc. You also bring up a very good point - there would need to be an easy way to convert Iray materials to Poser as well. I was just saying that I personally use Genesis 2 in Poser Pro 2014 because it works really well. SM really needs to modernize Poser. The flipside is that if DAZ introduces a modern openGL viewport mode, I will switch to DAZ Studio. The problem SM has is that not everyone is as particular about certain things as I am, and many have already moved on to DAZ Studio, never to return. The longer SM takes trying to excuse their way around sub-standard first-party content, the more they're going to continue losing customers. They can't hope to win back those already lost (with maybe an extremely tiny handful of exceptions), but they can do things to stop the bleeding. Will they? Who knows.
My point being, there is only so far some of us loyalists are willing to go before we just say forget it and switch to something else. As much as I love Poser, I can't justify spending money on new versions that aren't upgrades.
EClark1894 posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 6:47 AM
R_Hatch posted at 7:35AM Fri, 09 June 2017 - #4307000
wolf359 posted at 7:53PM Wed, 07 June 2017 - #4306964
One must remember that supporting the Daz figures involves more than just getting a functional Daz female into poser. Content development for the G2 female has effectively ceased except for non affiliated content makers, like myself,who prefers the Genesis 2 figures and make my own clothing to render in C4D with C4D mats.( see pic)
Going forward All of the DAZ content will have IRay Materials for Genesis 3 and the inevitable Genesis 4
People want the latest figures&content.
The reality is this:
The Daz studio user base is not retrievable.. we are NOT coming back to poser. The self proclaimed "poser loyalists"are relatively static demographic who don't actually contribute to growth in market share.
and why would a total newbie choose to $$$buy$$$ poser and settle for an older DSON imported G2 female with diminishing support.
When he /she could start with the latest FREE Daz studio and the latest Genesis Figures and content.
I should have stated that the DSON compatibility fix/restoration would definitely need to include Genesis 3, as well as be kept up to date as much as possible for G4, etc. You also bring up a very good point - there would need to be an easy way to convert Iray materials to Poser as well. I was just saying that I personally use Genesis 2 in Poser Pro 2014 because it works really well. SM really needs to modernize Poser. The flipside is that if DAZ introduces a modern openGL viewport mode, I will switch to DAZ Studio. The problem SM has is that not everyone is as particular about certain things as I am, and many have already moved on to DAZ Studio, never to return. The longer SM takes trying to excuse their way around sub-standard first-party content, the more they're going to continue losing customers. They can't hope to win back those already lost (with maybe an extremely tiny handful of exceptions), but they can do things to stop the bleeding. Will they? Who knows.
My point being, there is only so far some of us loyalists are willing to go before we just say forget it and switch to something else. As much as I love Poser, I can't justify spending money on new versions that aren't upgrades.
Well, let's be both fair and honest here. The main reason most people switched from Poser to Studio has nothing to do with Studio being a better application than Poser and honestly has even less to do with Genesis not working in Poser. Most people switched primarily because it made financial sense for them to. Poser costs up to $400 a shot to buy and yeah, comes with less than attractive figures. Both Studio and Genesis are free and you can even use your old V4 clothes, so you don't lose your past investment. Now, while I'm no fan of Genesis, I've never criticized the figure. I certainly concede that it is a superior figure to anything recently released for Poser, but then for me the reason I stick with Poser is that for me, at least, Poser is the superior application. Flawed features and all.
wolf359 posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 8:37 AM
Taking the figure quality completely out of the equation, in what objective ways is poser superior?
Rigging new content for the figures?
I have used the "Fitting Room" and I have used the Daz transfer utility to make many outfits including the one I posted earlier in the thread.
The transfer utility is literally 2 clicks and you have a conformer with ALL morphs working
immediately no need to add them later.
Animation?...
No... poser has no nonlinear motion clip mixer or puppeteer panel for mouse controlled motion recording and posers broken all or nothing IK system is well documented.
Rendering?? I have yet to see a Superfly render that looks as good as the native Blender cycles or Daz IRay. Not saying they dont exist but some links would be nice.
Dynamic Cloth?
I have the $50 USD optitex Cloth control plugin and the Dyncreator plugin from RMP merchant lola69-$10 USD to allow me to use my own models as Dynamic Clothing in Daz studio.
sample of one of my Dynamic dress models: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg4NLVxQCuo
So for an additional $60 USD investment over the Zero cost of the main app , I have superior Cloth abilities to posers as I have global gravity controls to create lighter floaty simulations figure body offsets to prevent poke through during the sim and can bake the sim to animated morphs right in Daz studio and apply a wind effects with animatable strength.
Dynamic hair ?? DAZ has none But it would seem that the poser solution is not widely used as evidenced by persistence of conforming hair products for V4 ,Dawn et al.
User friendly interface?? Surely an adept Blender user ,such as yourself, would not find the DS interface intimidating.
wimvdb posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 11:53 AM
Yes, indeed, Poser is the superior application by far
adzan posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 12:16 PM
I like the Poser Software and I like the Daz Figures, I don't know the Daz software as well as I know Poser but it seems to offer many wonderful features, although I'm so old now I've forgotten more about Poser than I ever knew ;)
We don't really need to start another war about which is better, can't we just let people like what ever they want to ?
EClark1894 posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 4:28 PM
adzan posted at 5:26PM Fri, 09 June 2017 - #4307119
I like the Poser Software and I like the Daz Figures, I don't know the Daz software as well as I know Poser but it seems to offer many wonderful features, although I'm so old now I've forgotten more about Poser than I ever knew ;)
We don't really need to start another war about which is better, can't we just let people like what ever they want to ?
I never said otherwise. I don't know why Wolf is upset. I did state that it was only my opinion as far as it pertained to me.
wolf359 posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 4:59 PM
@ Eclark I am not upset I am curious as a person who has used poser since version 2.
I understand the cognitive dissonance of being a "loyalist" in any aspect of life ,food ,Cars Religion etc.
But other than your personal fealty to smithMicro or the "community" I would be interested to hear, strictly from the perspective of a "figure posing and animation program"
First : I will concede the morph brush is SUPERIOR!!!...compared to the utterly useless "Dformer" of DS.
But Does that one feature keep you coming back to poser and paying for Upgrades.??
I would love to hear some other features that make poser objectively better than the current version of Daz studio as a ""figure posing and animation program"??
seachnasaigh posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 5:32 PM
The node-based material room alone would be sufficient for me. Oh, and Queue Manager - love that networking.
Poser 12, in feet.
OSes: Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64
Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5
wolf359 posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 6:02 PM
Thank you !!! A non emotional ,non defensive direct answer to my question and good examples of useful features.
DS has a node editor.(Aka shader mixer) I cant get My head around it despite becoming quite the node wrangler in Blenders elegant system.
EClark1894 posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 6:16 PM
wolf359 posted at 7:01PM Fri, 09 June 2017 - #4307149
@ Eclark I am not upset I am curious as a person who has used poser since version 2.
I understand the cognitive dissonance of being a "loyalist" in any aspect of life ,food ,Cars Religion etc.
But other than your personal fealty to smithMicro or the "community" I would be interested to hear, strictly from the perspective of a "figure posing and animation program"
First : I will concede the morph brush is SUPERIOR!!!...compared to the utterly useless "Dformer" of DS.
But Does that one feature keep you coming back to poser and paying for Upgrades.??
I would love to hear some other features that make poser objectively better than the current version of Daz studio as a ""figure posing and animation program"??
Honestly, figure posing for me is a snap in Poser. I don't see why some people have such a hard time with it. And I haven't been interested in animation since version 2. The thing I like best about Poser though is the fact that all the features it comes with, including the ones I don't use like Wind Force, and Bullet Physics. I don't have to go and buy some third party app which may or may not work on my computer. There's a mac AND a Windows version. The only Poser feature I can't say that about is the motion capture feature that works with Microsoft's Kinnect. As for paying for Poser Upgrades, over the years, I've upgraded to every version of Poser except 3 and 5, but Poser 11 is the only version I've ever upgraded to for a specific feature, and that was Superfly.
Also, something I've said before elsewhere, if I could get a working rigged version of Dawn or some other similarly rigged Poser figure, including Genesis, into Blender, that's the last Poser has seen of me.
wolf359 posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 6:29 PM
Works with the Genesis 3 models as well supports the Daz "Duf" format
http://diffeomorphic.blogspot.com/p/export-character-from-daz-to-blender.html
http://diffeomorphic.blogspot.com/p/daz-importer.html
AmbientShade posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 8:58 PM
wolf359 posted at 9:40PM Fri, 09 June 2017 - #4307101
" Poser is the superior application. Flawed features and all."
Taking the figure quality completely out of the equation, in what objective ways is poser superior?
Rigging new content for the figures?
I have used the "Fitting Room" and I have used the Daz transfer utility to make many outfits including the one I posted earlier in the thread.
The transfer utility is literally 2 clicks and you have a conformer with ALL morphs working
immediately no need to add them later.
I have clothing for M4 that won't work on G2M or G3M without manually fitting it in zbrush and porting it back in. And the transfer utility is nice but it's not a one-size-fits-all solution. If you're making skin-tight clothing then its usually fine, but most times you're still going to have to repaint weightmaps and create your own movement morphs, unless you like the 2005 pool-noodle, or stay-puff marshmallow man look in your clothes. Especially around shoulders elbows and knees. And all character morphs do not transfer equally as well depending on the body shape and how the clothing geometry is laid out. Of course if your t-shirt has 50K polys to start with then you probably won't have too much problem, but if your geometry is actually designed correctly with optimization in mind, then you're most likely going to have areas that need fine-tuning. And don't even get me started on trying to rig skirts, dresses, robes, etc. DS and Poser both fail pretty badly at that no matter how good their respective auto fit tools are. I've been rigging clothing in DS for over a year now, so I'm pretty familiar with its rigging tools. I still prefer Poser's rigging and weight painting tools. They may not be as flashy or as advanced but you still have more control if you know what you're doing. I also prefer having access to all the tools available in the software without caveats.
EClark1849 posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 10:58 PM
wolf359 posted at 10:56PM Fri, 09 June 2017 - #4307166
"Also, something I've said before elsewhere, if I could get a working rigged version of Dawn or some other similarly rigged Poser figure, including Genesis, into Blender, that's the last Poser has seen of me.
Works with the Genesis 3 models as well supports the Daz "Duf" format
http://diffeomorphic.blogspot.com/p/export-character-from-daz-to-blender.html
Interesting... Not at all sold on the idea of having to use Studio and still looks like a lot of work to get it working, but I might give this a try with a Studio version of Dawn.
R_Hatch posted Fri, 09 June 2017 at 10:59 PM
wolf359 posted at 9:46PM Fri, 09 June 2017 - #4307166
"Also, something I've said before elsewhere, if I could get a working rigged version of Dawn or some other similarly rigged Poser figure, including Genesis, into Blender, that's the last Poser has seen of me.
Works with the Genesis 3 models as well supports the Daz "Duf" format
http://diffeomorphic.blogspot.com/p/export-character-from-daz-to-blender.html
And thank you for leading into my hidden threat to Smith Micro - if I can get a functional Genesis 2/3 into Blender, Poser will be of no use to me. I'm considering a thread on why a high-quality openGL viewport will be better for almost everyone using Poser than an offline renderer (especially an offline-only version of Cycles).
@Smith Micro: the only three things that Poser needs are:
(1) improved realtime viewport (2) more streamlined animation tools (3) better content - no more gummy figures
NOBODY uses Poser for serious game development in any capacity whatsoever, so please don't try that again. That may seem hypocritical after telling you that Poser needs a game-engine-like viewport, but it isn't. It will enable more users to render high-quality animations much faster and has nothing to do with games.
EClark1849 posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 12:13 AM
Genesis actually holds little to no interest for me, so even if I could get it into Blender fully rigged and working perfectly, I probably wouldn't use it. Of course, being able to get Genesis into Blender would suggest that I can get the figures I DO like and use, Dawn, V4, Roxie, etc. into Blender also. Or that I can perhaps find a way to do so.
R_Hatch posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 1:18 AM
EClark1849 posted at 12:13AM Sat, 10 June 2017 - #4307187
Genesis actually holds little to no interest for me, so even if I could get it into Blender fully rigged and working perfectly, I probably wouldn't use it. Of course, being able to get Genesis into Blender would suggest that I can get the figures I DO like and use, Dawn, V4, Roxie, etc. into Blender also. Or that I can perhaps find a way to do so.
Exactly - if it's a DUF, it should work. BTW, for those wondering why I wish Poser to emulate Blender's viewport in future versions, here's something to drool over. Skip to the 0:47 second mark for the shiny. Yes, it is a bit slow. That's because he has a lot of objects in the scene, but mostly because this is pre-alpha at the moment. Over the next few months, it will be optimized and improved upon. Again, imagine if we had something like this in Poser.
EClark1849 posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 2:07 AM
R_Hatch posted at 2:05AM Sat, 10 June 2017 - #4307188
EClark1849 posted at 12:13AM Sat, 10 June 2017 - #4307187
Genesis actually holds little to no interest for me, so even if I could get it into Blender fully rigged and working perfectly, I probably wouldn't use it. Of course, being able to get Genesis into Blender would suggest that I can get the figures I DO like and use, Dawn, V4, Roxie, etc. into Blender also. Or that I can perhaps find a way to do so.
Exactly - if it's a DUF, it should work. BTW, for those wondering why I wish Poser to emulate Blender's viewport in future versions, here's something to drool over. Skip to the 0:47 second mark for the shiny. Yes, it is a bit slow. That's because he has a lot of objects in the scene, but mostly because this is pre-alpha at the moment. Over the next few months, it will be optimized and improved upon. Again, imagine if we had something like this in Poser.
The problem is, that Poser's newer figures, those from the G2 line on, don't work in Studio. While I can probably, convert them to DUF format, I'm not sure the rigging information with be transferred with it.
Also, judging ONLY from what I saw in the video, I think SM will be reluctant to bring EEEVEEE to Poser even if it could. They just did a lot of work adapting Cycles to work with Firefly, and with their battlecry being Backwards compatibility forever!!!!, I'm not sure they'll want to make the changes to Cycles they need to in order to get Eeeveee to work. Judging from all the lights in that scene, one thing they'll have to do to speed things up is to add Portals to Superfly.
wolf359 posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 5:07 AM
I personally view that the ability to autofit the M4/V4 clothing was "stop gap" to ease the transition to the original genesis. There is so much newer/better content for the G2/G3 Models that most DAZ users are not recycling the old Millenium 4 stuff, particularly in light of the new IRay materials used with the newer content.
Also I Make mostly Mens clothing but I agree that how the clothing is laid out is important in avoiding the classic
Puffy baked dough look.
Also one must model in some basic wrinkle morphs
at the joints as I have done with this futuristic business suit for the G3 male.
wolf359 posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 5:17 AM
"Of course, being able to get Genesis into Blender would suggest that I can get the figures I DO like and use, Dawn, V4, Roxie, etc. into Blender also. Or that I can perhaps find a way to do.
It would seem that this plugin will not suit you then. from what I gather in the long thread about, at the Daz forum, it is really designed to work with the Genesis 3 rigging and will even load poses,morphs and animations in the .duf format from your Daz content library.
If you insist on using the poser natives then a collada or FBX export from poser 11 may be your best course of action.
erogenesis posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 5:18 AM
Even though its no secret that Poser's market value might be at a deep lull, I don't think Poser would ever really be finished, there are still plenty of folks using it successfully in a professional setting (incl me) and since Poser basically started this while figure-based art thing, and has a fairly solid application to back it up. It delivers a fairly good tool set for the small price it asks for (and don't come with the free DS argument, most DS users spend WAY more on Genesis products than anything). You can render very awesome things in Poser, you just need to know what you're doing... which is incidentally a common requirement throughout CGI...
I was showing off Poser, not myself :D
That said, SM must not beat around the bush any more. Poser does have its flaws, some to infuriating degree, and they do need to get addressed a.s.a.p. I personally think that the creators of Poser never realized what they created, and it shows in their kind of laid-back approach to the development of the app and perhaps less than super-hot sexy figures... and DAZ saw the marketing value of it (and they're certainly milking the crap out of it). But I think this is where Poser shines, its not hell-bent on making a killing, its not trying to control your artwork, its not controlling the quality and since I've been playing around with DS more lately, Poser is definitely more designed for DIY CGI than DS is, which IMHO is the entire point of art (creativity, invention, innovation etc). Sure in DS you can do that, if you really want to... but never before have I witnessed such creative helplessness since DAZ has started taking things over. There are a lot of people out there that are totally clueless to the basics of CGI, and they expect everything to be done for them. I find that truly depressing, that some folks are incapable of expressing themselves with such amazing packages as DS available, for free.
Since I'm in the UK things have become better for me infrastructurally and now I can actually focus on my Poser figure for you. I know that a lot of people must have given up on PE by now but like I told a friend recently: it is what it is, but I cannot give up, I've come a long, way I just need to finish her. If and when PE does come out, I somehow hope that it will inspire people to try and release themselves of this total dependence on prefab figures and content. There is so much content out there already and all you need to do is teach yourself a tiny bit of rigging and you can recycle it instead of forking out hundreds of dollars for the same old crap every time some company in Utah needs money. Expression should not be controlled by money, but money should be controlled by expression. We are free to do what we want. Of course we should definitely support our vendors, but ask them to make what you want, they'll probably just do it.
The only reason I am still bothering with my Poser figure is that I am frustrated that my friends and colleagues are so hung up about this DAZ/Poser thing. Yes I might come across as a snob with that I can model my own stuff, but I just helped a buddy artist with my old hybrid V4-PE figure to work in his scenes. He was frustrated that he might have to start using Genesis and DAZ Studio, when all of his career he's been investing in Poser + V4. So I sorted something out for him. Its basically a V4 but then high-res and with lots of detail in the very right places. The dude is as happy as a pig in sh*t. Now I cannot do this for the masses because DAZ will sue me to hell and back. But yeah, my figure is finally on its way. If that won't work, then I have no idea what will. But guys, I've released myself from this figure circus friggin years ago my making my own figure and when you do that you'll find there's no need to even consider DAZ Studio. I'm not saying DS is crap. No, its... different. VERY market-oriented. I still prefer Poser, its closer to C4D and Max in terms of degrees of freedom, in my experience. This is why I considered C4D, because its way closer to Poser in terms of being a true CGI package, no materials are bound to one model, for example. Yeah Poser does have its shortcomings but that's what email/forums are for: bang them over the head until they fix it. And they do. I was a massive pain in the butt for Nerd3D, but he fixed a LOT of things in the time he ran Poser. Like I said, I think they stumbled on a goldmine and their biggest flaw is not realizing it. They're now catching up with their own success.
So no, Poser is not finished, its just not dominating the content market as aggressively as DAZ is.
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
wolf359 posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 5:23 AM
Indeed for long clothing below the thigh, Dynamics is the only way to go for both still and animated.
EClark1849 posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 6:18 AM
wolf359 posted at 6:15AM Sat, 10 June 2017 - #4307196
"Of course, being able to get Genesis into Blender would suggest that I can get the figures I DO like and use, Dawn, V4, Roxie, etc. into Blender also. Or that I can perhaps find a way to do.
It would seem that this plugin will not suit you then. from what I gather in the long thread about, at the Daz forum, it is really designed to work with the Genesis 3 rigging and will even load poses,morphs and animations in the .duf format from your Daz content library.
If you insist on using the poser natives then a collada or FBX export from poser 11 may be your best course of action.
I've tried using FBX. I KNOW that doesn't work. And even using the plugin as you suggested would be laborious and tedious. if you have a number of models to import, as you have do some adjustments.
wolf359 posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 7:08 AM
Which is why I have No interest in the plugin even though I am a part time Blender user.
Here is the problem as I see it .
People want the Genesis Figures in thier favorite program/environment.
Fair enough.... however they want a genesis figure with full Daz studio funtionality and many somehow wish to preclude the use of Daz studio in the pipeline at all.
This is a fools gambit.
In the end Genesis is just a 3D model.
what makes it unique is the way Daz studio is coded to allow you to interact with the rigging and morphs built in to the model.
If you are so philosphically opposed to using Daz studio to access the full potential of the genesis models that is fine as well...
However be prepared to do whatever work is involved in getting that 3D model into your other program and be willing to accept compromises.
Daz gives us several industry standard export formats to send studio models&content to other applications some free.. some as paid addons( Alembic& MDD)
I am using .obj+MDD to get any Genesis Figure I want over to C4D with textures and animation intact I have 40 minutes of finished movie footage using this export method .
here are some Clips
(Not final on the sound)
Missing planets
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2TYEp536iB8QU5qb0Z0NW9vaWc/view
The reveal: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2TYEp536iB8MHFBcUVMOUl3OHM/view
Dhul-Quarnain https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2TYEp536iB8WWNCRjd4TDd2NkE/view
There ares NO compromises here I create the animation with both iclone and Daz studio aniMate2 and previs in Daz studio Open GL.
Each Character has to only be exported to C4D ONE time unless I change his clothing.
After that it is a simple matter of animating his/her next scene in DS/Iclone and dropping the new MDD motion Data on the server and loading it to the static mesh in C4D and he is performing his next action according to the script.
One could do the same with blender for still or animation renders as Blender supports MDD import unless you refuse to use DAZ Studio at all even for the one time .obj /MDD export.
you only really have two viable options if you want to use genesis models
Use Daz studio for everything including rendering
or use DAZ Studio just enough to export the bloody models to your other program and DO THE WORK to get them rendered still or animated.
wolf359 posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 7:38 AM
" There is so much content out there already and all you need to do is teach yourself a tiny bit of rigging and you can recycle it instead of forking out hundreds of dollars for the same old crap every time some company in Utah needs money. "............. "This is why I considered C4D, because its way closer to Poser in terms of being a true CGI package, no materials are bound to one model, for example.
I dont give any money to "some company in Utah" I have the skills to make my own new, one off clothing content I suspect that the same is true for Ambient Shade I suspect that the same is true for Eclarke and for you of course.
However telling the vast majority of poser users to become content developers,as a means to liberate themselves from vendors like DAZ is not realistic and frankly a bit condescending.
Oh and you may have "Considered C4D "but I have actually used C4D for over a decade and I can assure that it is NOTHING Like poser.....NOTHING.
erogenesis posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 8:17 AM
wolf359 posted at 3:03PM Sat, 10 June 2017 - #4307202
" There is so much content out there already and all you need to do is teach yourself a tiny bit of rigging and you can recycle it instead of forking out hundreds of dollars for the same old crap every time some company in Utah needs money. "............. "This is why I considered C4D, because its way closer to Poser in terms of being a true CGI package, no materials are bound to one model, for example.
I dont give any money to "some company in Utah" I have the skills to make my own new, one off clothing content I suspect that the same is true for Ambient Shade I suspect that the same is true for Eclarke and for you of course.
However telling the vast majority of poser users to become content developers,as a means to liberate themselves from vendors like DAZ is not realistic and frankly a bit condescending.
I'm definitely not saying you must do that, do with what you can, but we all have to be mature and realistic about our competencies and skills, and if you just don't have the skill, then you are also kind of liberated from the authority to argue about it. Many of my friends and I have made a conscious effort to argue from this point of view and it is only fair to the vendors that do all the work here. Such a mentality actually makes CGI a much more pleasurable exerience and helps a person actually focus on areas that he/she needs improving on, like poke throughs of cloth, square fingertips, glittery hair, dull expressionless HDRI-based renders...
Oh and you may have "Considered C4D "but I have actually used C4D for over a decade and I can assure that it is NOTHING Like poser.....NOTHING.
Did you read the rest of what I wrote or are you just going to pick out the things that you can whine about? If you would have read carefully you would have read that I am comparing certain aspects of C4D to Poser, like copying materials across to other objects. Any dummy would know Poser and C4D are very different packages, Poser cannot model stuff from scratch for example, but the idea of how the objects, materials shaders, renderers work is very similar.
I am sure you probably get my point in as much as I can understand some of the points you have made up in the ret of this thread, but when you take a few steps back, you'll probably find that many of our arguments are not so poignant since Poser just seems to be plodding along at its own pace, and may people are just using Poser quite happily.
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
Boni posted Sat, 10 June 2017 at 9:25 AM
I'm sorry guys ... there are those trying to keep this positive and on track and there are those who refuse ... so ... let's just NOT. NO MORE software "war", no more predicting the demise of Poser. It does not support the community. this is locked.
Boni
"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork
