Hey people!

So Project Evolution is finally out after 3 years of developing her in Malawi, and then in the UK. It took a while didn't it? After years of developing PE, while dealing with a country that is falling to pieces (Malawi) moving to the UK and not even being sure if PE would be useful at all, she is finally out. I still cannot believe it myself! Well, I'm happy I persisted, because I've seen artists that were otherwise quiet for years suddenly jump up and crank out renders enthusiastically. And I am also blown away to see so many people just teaching themselves how to convert their own stuff. I am very very impressed!

Of course not everyone enjoys having to convert everything all the time, myself included, so at some point we're all hoping that vendors step in and start helping us out. Thankfully Karanta already kicked it off (<3), RobZhena and Ghostship spreading free materials and poses for PE too, and Biscuits, Ghostman and Verbaas are busy making a load of basic wear (I'm helping them rig some of it) (see below).

Now, I have heard that there are more folks busy but I think they're waiting for the official version. Ok so about that, don't wait up!!! The official version will not be much different from this Early Version. Aside from some minor dial limit issues and morphs that folks feel that should have been added, I think everyone seems ok with her. There might be a few extra morphs available, perhaps a detailed muscle system, some corrections but none that will affect the bending or shape, but other than that really not that much more. The rest is all addons. The mannequins need a bit of tidying and will maybe get a few more little tricks that can be added later in an update. But again, nothing that will force you to redo your product if you already have it. More importantly, I have no idea when this version will be ready. I've worked long and hard on this figure, I don't want to rush it and screw things up. I also really really need to release a comic for my comic fans. I didn't release anything last year and I feel terrible about that. So if you have something, throw it out there.

Just to repeat and make myself clear: Vendors you are safe to go. UV maps, topo, JCMs, weight maps are all there to stay. The only things that could change is maybe a texture, but even that will be minor. From here on out its just addons basically, and the addons will also have their mannequin counterparts so that you can (if you want) update your products. Mannequins also will stay the same, they will get cleaned up, channels ordered, and stuff added to them... but nothing that is there now will change.

Also, lets avoid mega-releases and campaigns for now. Project Evolution has come at a time when many Poser artists were deeply concerned for the future of Poser in their careers / hobbies, and PE is my no means invulnerable, so I don't think its a good idea to take any marketing risks at the moment. If you have something for PE, release it. Timed releases also risk flooding the costumers with stuff in one go, rather spread it out so that people have time to adjust. Also, the sooner you release your stuff, the sooner I (and others) can get input on what needs improving. If she does well you can always do a mega sale at some point. Right now all she needs is some momentum, bit-by-bit.

Also, PE for me was always an effort to make a nice figure available for the Poser community. I didn't hold back and neither should you. Go for it. Don't wait!

For now she will be available at CGbytes. I have obligations there, especially since they had a direct hand in her creation and they supported me for years. Its a fine and reliable store, nothing wrong with it. A release at Rendo is always possible of course, it is on the table, but I'm not going to make any promises just yet. My head is still spinning from everything that has happened, so I'm not going to do anything crazy yet lol. Lets keep it spontaneous and fun, let it be about making people have fun again in Poser. I know I am.

items below are w.i.p

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

Link to get her, please.

Nice.

Found it at another site.

operaguy posted at 7:23PM Fri, 19 January 2018 - #4322544

Link to get her, please.

Tos here will not allow such a link to be posted. Just Google the mentioned site.... And bypass the silly link rule....

operaguy posted at 7:23PM Fri, 19 January 2018 - #4322544

Link to get her, please.

Tos here will not allow such a link to be posted. Just Google the mentioned site.... And bypass the silly link rule....

Well worth the wait-Thank You-Awesome

Beware-The Smoking Man Still Lives!

The two things I've been looking forward to with this model: facial control handles for lip-sync animation; and beautiful hands. Confidence is high, so far, that PE can provide both.

::::: Opera :::::

The poor lass needs to get some oxygen; her nails say she's very dangerously low.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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I was just thinking along the same lines Sam. I was wondering whether it a lack of oxygen, or a blood clot. Oh wait, blood clots usually make toes turn greyish.

_______________

OK . . . Where's my chocolate?

Butterfly Dezignz

SamTherapy posted at 7:50PM Sun, 21 January 2018 - #4322645

The poor lass needs to get some oxygen; her nails say she's very dangerously low.

Perhaps she's a smoker.

Just saving up for her, myself. I have almost the right amount of funds here on Rendo, but they are not enough to transfer out, unfortunately.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

RobynsVeil posted at 5:00PM Sun, 21 January 2018 - #4322663

SamTherapy posted at 7:50PM Sun, 21 January 2018 - #4322645

The poor lass needs to get some oxygen; her nails say she's very dangerously low.

Perhaps she's a smoker.

Just saving up for her, myself. I have almost the right amount of funds here on Rendo, but they are not enough to transfer out, unfortunately.

Start with the free version. ;) Works great for playing around and get the feel for her.

"Dream like you'll live forever. Live like you'll die tomorrow."

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Just how much difference is there between the free and paid for version? I'm using the free version to make some test clothing and rigging tests which I will convert as soon as I can afford her, and would like to know what I'm in for?

The free verison is basically lacking MOST morphs and apparently, some rigging. Also the texture maps on the free version are super tiny. like 512pxl x 512pxl

Cool, if it's at least the same shape wise I can work with that.

Letterworks posted at 9:49PM Sun, 21 January 2018 - #4322692

Cool, if it's at least the same shape wise I can work with that.

Yes it's the same shape and the same basic rigging.

"Dream like you'll live forever. Live like you'll die tomorrow."

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RobynsVeil posted at 1:01AM Mon, 22 January 2018 - #4322663

SamTherapy posted at 7:50PM Sun, 21 January 2018 - #4322645

The poor lass needs to get some oxygen; her nails say she's very dangerously low.

Perhaps she's a smoker.

Just saving up for her, myself. I have almost the right amount of funds here on Rendo, but they are not enough to transfer out, unfortunately.

Way back when I was a smoker, the only time my nails looked like that was just before I was taken into hospital with pneumonia.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Hey peeps! There seems to be some misunderstanding behind the scenes about the 'free' version and the current Early Edition version of PE. The free version was always meant to be a demonstration so you could check to see if it was for you. Unless you're very experienced in Poser, I wouldn't recommend the demo for use in actual art pieces. The demo is available here at Rendo.

Regarding the main figure (available at CGbytes, soon probably also at Rendo), my initial plans were to make her modular but I changed my mind two months ago to sell the figure in her entirety for several reasons: because the figure was taking so long to complete, I decided to release an Early Edition to at least get the ball rolling and give me a much needed break. This Edition is pretty much the complete figure with some minor things that still need refining (like finger JCMs). Splitting the figure up in modules would have taken at least another month. Also, because the Poser community has had to deal with several 'disappointments' in the past, I thought it would be better not to gamble with modules and create confusion, and rather just let people immediately see her full potential straight off the bat. Also as a complete figure, its easier to maintain for now.

To be honest I think I prefer the figure like this. This way there's no fidgeting and bargaining with various modules. I would rather have everything available than have to meddle with addons for things that I consider to be basic requirements for a figure.

PS: sorry if I'm a little slow at responding!

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

"Also, PE for me was always an effort to make a nice figure available for the Poser community. I didn't hold back and neither should you. Go for it. Don't wait!

For now she will be available at CGbytes. I have obligations there, especially since they had a direct hand in her creation and they supported me for years. Its a fine and reliable store, nothing wrong with it. A release at Rendo is always possible of course, it is on the table, but I'm not going to make any promises just yet."

Except that you've already made promises.

This entire project was just a bait-and-switch to get vendors jumping on-board to support a figure that you stated would have a fully-functioning free version distributed at Renderosity with "Add-ons sold separately". Instead you took advantage of Rosity staff and vendor support to change things up at the last moment and release a $30 figure at a competing site with whom it turns out you had a financial arrangement all along, and a totally stripped down demo here that will just funnel buyers to the other site. Honestly I'm shocked Rosity is even allowing it after what you pulled.

I honestly feel bad for those you fooled. I can't say I didn't see this coming, but then I've been burned too many times by third party figures in the last 15+ years.

Bait and switch? Those I fooled? Then you don't know me. I don't do stuff like that. I give stuff away for free all the time, and I just released a massive experimental figure for $30... something that will cost you close to $300 at DAZ. I struggled to get the figure done and I am on the verge of a burn out, and this is not exactly helping. I wasn't even sure if I could get it done.

This has been a very very grave misunderstanding. I am horrified you think this way. I admit I am not the world's greatest planner, but I'm always open about it and I've never formally agreed to anything with Rendo. Do you mind if I can just be spontaneous and take a break while people have something to play with? If you followed what has been going on you might have noticed that the release was a last minute thing.

Yes I am a loyal dog to CGbytes, especially since they funded the damn project. I was VERY clear about this with the Rendo staff.

Anyway, should I release at Rendo or not? I was working on a plan... but... should I?

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

You should really drop the martyr act, it's childish.

I specifically asked you for clarification on these points, and you did several times in both emails and in the forum. "I admit I am not the world's greatest planner" is not an excuse for making promises to merchants to get support for your product and then switching things up in the last minute.

Sorry I didn't realize this was public. I don't want this to escalate any further. Let's agree on this.

• If you do not want to buy, or support CGbytes, then don't do so. That's fine.
• If you want to wait until PE gets released at Rendo, then wait. I have always been open to it, and I am working on a plan. I cannot give any dates yet.

I apologies for any inconveniences caused, but it was definitely not intentional. That's not who I am.

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

Blackhearted posted at 8:44PM Tue, 23 January 2018 - #4322835

You should really drop the martyr act, it's childish.

I specifically asked you for clarification on these points, and you did several times in both emails and in the forum. "I admit I am not the world's greatest planner" is not an excuse for making promises to merchants to get support for your product and then switching things up in the last minute.

Its clear you have already formed an opinion of me, and the only way to change that is to dig up months of informal correspondences... which would probably just be a waste of time. I've always valued you as a great vendor, and even when we heard that blackhearted was interested in PE, I was incredibly excited. So I'm not sure what to say other than that I'm sorry you feel this way and I hope that once PE is available at Rendo you can feel excited about her again.

But I must insist, none of this was deliberate. This is just a big, horrible misunderstanding.

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

Blackhearted posted at 11:36AM Tue, 23 January 2018 - #4322826

I honestly feel bad for those you fooled. I can't say I didn't see this coming, but then I've been burned too many times by third party figures in the last 15+ years.

Anyone who knows me is aware of my love four nitpicking and my relatively uncompromising take on figures. Everything I know of anatomy comes from complaining about mistakes in other people's figures, both bundled and third party. I am no one's shill or sucker. PE is still a work in progress but I can say from working with it that it's the best third party figure I've used in terms of natural posing, and Ero's not wrong about the price point for the feature set. Pick your words carefully because we've seen other developers frightened off by people eager to throw shade and if that's all they receive then the only figures you're going to get will be from one vendor. No forum lays claim to owning the Poser userbase, even SM's and Ero doesn't owe Rendo a particular product (esp if CGBytes underwrite it's production). I remember when we were clamoring right here for Kim Goossens to mame The Girl a Poser figure and no one threw a tantrum over TG going with DAZ. If you don't want to use this figure, don't but leave your sense of entitlement over its distribution/sales at the door.

Blackhearted posted at 11:36AM Tue, 23 January 2018 - #4322826

I honestly feel bad for those you fooled. I can't say I didn't see this coming, but then I've been burned too many times by third party figures in the last 15+ years.

Anyone who knows me is aware of my love for nitpicking and my relatively uncompromising take on figures. Everything I know of anatomy comes from complaining about mistakes in other people's figures, both bundled and third party. I am no one's shill or sucker.

PE is still a work in progress but I can say from working with it that it's the best third party figure I've used in terms of natural posing, and Ero's not wrong about the price point for the feature set.

Pick your words carefully because we've seen other developers frightened off by people eager to throw shade and if that's all they receive then the only figures you're going to get will be from one vendor.

No forum lays claim to owning the Poser userbase, even SM's and Ero doesn't owe Rendo a particular product (esp if CGBytes underwrite it's production). I remember when we were clamoring right here for Kim Goossens to mame The Girl a Poser figure and no one threw a tantrum over TG going with DAZ. If you don't want to use this figure, don't but leave your sense of entitlement over its distribution/sales at the door.

Wow... unexpected vitrol. For what it's worth ERO, P.E is a marvelous figure, and reasonably priced for everything you get.

(Apologies for the double post, I was on my phone)

Also, Blackhearted, I have the full verison of P.E and the Demo. The Demo verison is a fully functioning figure, it's is just lacking the full version's morph targets. Given that, I'm doubly confused by the vitrol....

Blackhearted posted at 1:20PM Tue, 23 January 2018 - #4322835

You should really drop the martyr act, it's childish.

I specifically asked you for clarification on these points, and you did several times in both emails and in the forum. "I admit I am not the world's greatest planner" is not an excuse for making promises to merchants to get support for your product and then switching things up in the last minute.

And people like you are why we can't have nice things in Poser.

It's charming that he got some of his cronies here to support him.

Let me make something very clear: I'm glad that there's another poser figure out there, because we sorely needed one. I have no beef with Erogenesis, in fact until a few months ago I had no idea who he was. I do have a problem with someone making certain promises and representations and then turning around and reneging on them.

There is a huge difference between how this little project was presented to Renderosity staff and potential supporting vendors and how it actually materialized. Erogenesis presented this as some sortof boon to the Poser community, a project of passion that he intended to release for free. He got a lot of vendors interested because of this, and made several clear guarantees that there would be a free base figure available for simultaneous release at Renderosity and CGBytes. I asked him for clarification in both email and the Project Evolution forum that the Renderosity staff took the trouble to create for him that he wouldn't just release a stripped down version to funnel traffic to a $30-40 paid version on CGBytes and he assured everyone that this wouldn't be the case. I hate to say I told everyone so, but it is.

He took advantage of both the Rendo staff and merchants to support a product that he presented as a "passion project" and "gift to the Poser community" which actually turned out to be your typical 3rd party figure money grab. Which would be totally fine if that's the way it was presented from the start, but it wasn't. If he would have been honest and stated "This is a for-profit third party figure that will be released at CGBytes, would you like to create supporting products?" then he wouldn't have gotten a fraction of the support. I have no gripes with capitalism, only with duplicity.

...To be clear. I AM NO ONE'S CRONIE.

I wasn't referring to you ;)

Fair enough. I apologize. :-)

@Blackhearted, Oh Man, you know how to hurt people..

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Blackhearted,

Crony my ass. I'm a customer; you know, the folks that keep the lights on in Murfressboro.

As a long time customer, if I had a nickel for every broken promise from either 'Rosity or the vendors that sold here, I could buy Daz3d and close the company.

Ero made it quite clear that CGBytes would get 1st crack based on their support for him when he started out as a vendor. I'd also point out that with every project, it gets to the point where someone has to shoot the engineer and get the product into production. Ero reached that point last month. It also makes more sense from a production perspective - CGBytes has a smaller footprint, so that if there are problems, you are addressing it with a smaller userbase. In addition, it doesn't have anywhere near the same poisonous atmosphere that exists here - your posts being a good example. Hint - as a professional, it never pays to air dirty laundry.

'Rosity hasn't been the go-to place for Poser for a while now. I don't know if you have noticed, but Poser products haven't exactly been a priority around here for either content or support for quite some time now. If you want content for the hivewire figures, you aren't shopping here; if you want content for the SM figures, you aren't shopping here. See a pattern?

It isn't Oct 2007 anymore, and vendors need to figure that out. Content has been decoupled from figures, which changes the business model - and from what I have seen, most vendors here aren't willing to adjust to that new reality.

The way Erogenesis released the figure is a better deal for the end users, so I really don't understand your whining, unless it is just more vendor arrogance oozing out.

And it is a MUCH better deal. Better than the hivewire figures, and better than the Daz figures. $29.99 - morphs, a baker's dozen of characters, AND free additional morphs and such coming? Add an $5.00 for the maniquenn set up so as a customer, I don't have to hear another whiny vendor say I don't want to make stuff for that figure? Take my money!

If vendors get on board here, great. If they don't, guess what - PE users will spend 5 bucks and move on; it isn't like we don't have terabytes of content to pick from.

But as a customer, I'd tell vendors this - don't wait too long. The more time a vendor takes to support a new figure, the more time I have to convert content I already own (I've already started with my Daz V4 content), and will spend that money at other storefronts.

I think 30 dollars for the figure, considering all the work involved is very reasonable. That is very close to free anyway, and i bet loads of people bought her. I know I did. I didn't even try the demo version. i could see from the renders that PE was the best poser figure ever released. I hope there will be a matching male one day. I also thought ero once mentioned a possibility of making PE free in the forums a long time ago. I think he was still considering different options. And I don't remember of a promise of it being definitely free. The talk of possibly free was very early in the PE development and i think lots of people responded in forums with, no it is better to charge something for all your work. Now there is a free demo version and a very cheap paid version. I think that is great and should please lots of people. Really wonderful. I'm very very happy with my PE. Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

ssgbryan: it seems you have quite a lot invested in this, your post reads like an infomercial.

You can launch as many snide personal attacks at me as you want in defense of PE: after nearly two decades of this your post wasn't even worthy of an eye roll. What you don't seem to be grasping is that I never said anything about the product itself, I clearly stated that I'm glad Poser users have yet another option for their Runtimes.

I take issue with all this "I've sacrificed years of my life to create this, my gift to the Poser community" and "we need to get everyone working together on this otherwise DAZ will win the war" bullshit in order to take advantage of support from staff and developers and then at the end it turns out to be just another run of the mill offsite 3rd party figure cash grab. Which would have been totally fine if that was how it was presented from the start, but then of course a fraction of the developers and testers and vendors wouldn't have jumped on board.

Poser needs a high quality free (possibly even open source) base figure to get it out of it's current stagnant situation. I would devote a lot of my time to such a project, and so would many other vendors and Poser stores. This shared enthusiasm to provide a remedy to the Poser figure situation is what was very cleverly manipulated in a marketing ruse to get support from stores and vendors who would have otherwise given it a wide berth.

Thank you folks for sticking up for me and PE.

I'm willing to accept I was unclear about things, my bad, but if it comes across as bait and switching, then that sucks, because it simply isn't that. Rendo was always in the picture, especially since many people that helped with PE's development are from Rendo, and I respect them loads. The only thing that I messed up is the timing. A combined release would have been perfect, but there was no time to coordinate that, especially since I hurried the xmas release along the way I did. You can choose if you want to believe that or not.

If one finds it hard to believe that there are people that actually work hard and sacrifice time to make something for the greater good, then that's that person's problem, not mine. My first love is comics, last year I didn't release a comic and I feel very bad for that. Ask anyone over at Deviant Art and Renderotica how much I miss making comics. In fact ask the people I worked with how much I moaned about that lol. So yes I absolutely did sacrifice that a bit. Sorry if you don't believe that. And of course I am entirely ready to admit that there was a selfish element in this, I needed a figure myself, I could use the cash, supporting Poser is also good for me... and therefore also comics.

But I make stuff for my comics. Lali's Bits emerged this way, I made it for my comics, then people started asking for it. So I released it in the store (took me forever to figure out how though). I rarely sell actual content. I only have three products in the store of my own: Lali's Bits, TaB and now PE. Both TaB and Lali's Bits were requests. PE more-or-less too. PE was something that needed to happen. I needed a figure for my comics because V4 was getting too old, and Genesis was tailored for DAZ (which is not a problem btw, but yeah I use Poser). I had made a few figures for myself, so making one for the Poser community was the next obvious step. But yeah that was easier said than done.

And yes I would like to make a bit of money too. I make comics, they're hardly a jackpot. A free figure like you say would be amazing obviously, and I did think about it, but I simply cannot afford a risk like that.

So again, I am working on a Rendo release (remember, this is an Early Editon eh?). I apologize if anyone feels misinformed. Nobody is under any obligation to buy her from CGbytes, that's entirely up to you obviously.

"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."

"work hard and sacrifice time to make something for the greater good"

I'm not sure how creating a for-profit product has anything to do with sacrifice for a greater good? You're a vendor, drop the Mother Teresa act already.

Hey folks, calm down, no personal attacks please.

---

Ulli

"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!"

gets popcorn

Fact: One person development (and some who were added to the boat late) of a figure over years. Fact: 30$ for a high quality figure with a lot of morphs, that bend better, than any figure before. Fact: PE is not perfect, since who ever thought, there could be something perfect. Fact: Later releases including fixes are planed. Fact: more People starting using Poser again since PE release. Fact: I paied 30$ for PE and I don't regret any cent of it.

I'm only an occasional visitor to the forums these days but I have dropped in now and then to follow the development of this figure over recent years and have seen the project change a grow but have never felt misled at any stage. Nor did I ever expect not to pay for it in some capacity - loss leader figures only work for creators who can either churn out large amounts of content by themselves and/or who are in a position to profit from the supporting work of other creators. Like DAZ3D - it's a great strategy for them but for an independent, not a realistic one.

When it was released, I noted that there was a free version but considered that at $30, the full package was a bit of a bargain, so I happily paid and as it is a good product, I feel the creator has earned any money he makes. To put the price in perspective, it's only $5 more than I've paid for some individual Blackhearted morph/textures sets when they were on sale - which I still consider very reasonably priced. So $30 doesn't seem like much, even on my limited budget - a couple of books, or a cartoon show.

I don't know about greater goods or saving the Poserverse - I just see a product I like at a price I think is fair and that I can afford. Unless someone has suffered harm, life is a little short to get upset about it. Maybe try a private conversation to work things out?

I've come back after years away from Poser. I've seen the posts from many over the years. Some "vendors" go off the deep end when they view any work that might compete with their own or which they perceive as being at least as good as what their ego tells them is the absolute greatest (theirs) or that might take attention away from them. PE is a wonderful new figure, a move in a direction supportive of Poser which I perceive is a good thing. glad I bought her:)

movida posted at 6:35AM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4323000

I've come back after years away from Poser. I've seen the posts from many over the years. Some "vendors" go off the deep end when they view any work that might compete with their own or which they perceive as being at least as good as what their ego tells them is the absolute greatest (theirs) or that might take attention away from them. PE is a wonderful new figure, a move in a direction supportive of Poser which I perceive is a good thing. glad I bought her:)

I'm charmed that your first order of business upon returning is to sling insults at me, but I'd like to point out that I've never criticized anyone's work (unless it was a proven copyright infringement, in which case they deserved to be crucified).

My problem isn't with PE but with the shitty ethics and behavior of it's creator.

Khai-J-Bach posted at 8:56AM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4322902

gets popcorn

Best reply yet! See if ya all have been around for awhile you just KNOW if BH is commenting on a thread, it's gonna get good. Don't judge, most of us work from home, this is the most "office drama" we get!

Carry on, I will be sharing Khai's popcorn! :)

o.O

I am with Jules53757 totally, calling names or getting mad is not helping anyone I think.

I understand the frustration and I admit I have no time left lately to follow what is going on here and at this point neither I care about the drama, life is way too short and stressful enough to get involved in this. I am very sorry and frustrated to see people insulting others and I am glad if someone find this entertaining, good for them. I personally find it pointless, in the end we are all here to make a living, to create art and make this a good place to be while having the luxury to work from our comfy desks, while most of the people are out scrapping the barrell and we are here bitching about a puppet.

I want just to say to all of you, even if nobody will listen to me I bet, to please focus on what matters: plan something that is good for this great new figure, try to maximize her exposure and simply create the best supporting products to re-launch a quite stagnating Poser.

Maybe the temper flares are a sign that we all care about this project, maybe we are all just getting crancky because we are passionate artists... I don't know. I just want remember everyone that there are real people behind monitors and fighting instead of discussing peacefully has always lead to wars and I don't think this is a place for helmets and bombs... Not yet at least (you never know in this mad world, right? )

Jenn worked damn hard to bring everything and everyone together, why don't we just try to be respectful of her at least and focus on what truly matters in this PE project?

We cannot expect to have great followers on this project if we cannot even agree on anything between ourselves. Can we just get back to square one and make some order in this useless mess?

Ok, now I expect to be called names myself, bring it on No, seriously guys... Let's do like those fighting couples that at one point stop bitching and start to make out <3 Then I will be the first to pop some popcorn he he...

🐱😸😹😺😻😼😽😾😿🙀

This is 10% Luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain and a 100% reason to remember the name!

Blackhearted posted at 10:49AM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4322894

Poser needs a high quality free (possibly even open source) base figure to get it out of it's current stagnant situation. I would devote a lot of my time to such a project, and so would many other vendors and Poser stores.

Pauline is an open source figure, and available to everyone with P11. But aside from Scott's re-rig 2 years ago no one has done anything with her. A handful of vendors have put out some characters and clothing, but that's it. She has some issues, but again, she's open source, so those issues could be fixed by anyone who cares to take the time to do so. It seems most want a proven figure that's ready to go out of the box before they'll start doing the first thing with it.

AmbientShade posted at 10:10AM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4323023

Blackhearted posted at 10:49AM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4322894

Poser needs a high quality free (possibly even open source) base figure to get it out of it's current stagnant situation. I would devote a lot of my time to such a project, and so would many other vendors and Poser stores.

Pauline is an open source figure, and available to everyone with P11. But aside from Scott's re-rig 2 years ago no one has done anything with her. A handful of vendors have put out some characters and clothing, but that's it. She has some issues, but again, she's open source, so those issues could be fixed by anyone who cares to take the time to do so. It seems most want a proven figure that's ready to go out of the box before they'll start doing the first thing with it.

I am with you a 100000% on this. I wish I was able to work on those issues becasue I would. I am barely able to create characters unfortunately. Pauline has potential indeed. Too bad nobody seems to be willing to mess with her.

🐱😸😹😺😻😼😽😾😿🙀

This is 10% Luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain and a 100% reason to remember the name!

" It seems most want a proven figure that's ready to go out of the box before they'll start doing the first thing with it."

Not really a surprising mindset in these modern times of instant gratification, particualrly in an arena where asthetics are so important...human nature and all that.

@ BlackHearted, Nice to see you are still around sir you do Great work

Making my own clothing content these days,( DS& C4D)

nice to be liberated from the Designs of others.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

I seem to recall similar warring a few years back was one of the reasons that Ero took this project over to CGBytes away from the forums here in the first place. Might not be worth the time to fire up the air popper.

I must say, I respect both people who started this unfortunate debate. Having followed the development of P.E. I was aware of Ero's intention from a ways back ... it has been in the Promo images and since Ero isn't a trained businessman there is room for misunderstandings and unintended misinformation that is shared. Please accept that no malice or impropriety was intended and allow us all to enjoy the wonderful products that you both offer. I'm hoping to eventually see a V4 to P.E. texture transfer from Blacksmith3d. We are a community ... let us remain mutually supportive.

Boni

---

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

The other way to look at it is the base figure is free, it just does not have any extras and the $30 buys you all the morphs and other things you have to buy with any other figure. So you do have a free figure.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

Blackhearted posted at 2:47AM Fri, 26 January 2018 - #4322894

I take issue with all this "I've sacrificed years of my life to create this, my gift to the Poser community" and "we need to get everyone working together on this otherwise DAZ will win the war" bullshit in order to take advantage of support from staff and developers and then at the end it turns out to be just another run of the mill offsite 3rd party figure cash grab. Which would have been totally fine if that was how it was presented from the start, but then of course a fraction of the developers and testers and vendors wouldn't have jumped on board.

Poser needs a high quality free (possibly even open source) base figure to get it out of it's current stagnant situation. I would devote a lot of my time to such a project, and so would many other vendors and Poser stores. This shared enthusiasm to provide a remedy to the Poser figure situation is what was very cleverly manipulated in a marketing ruse to get support from stores and vendors who would have otherwise given it a wide berth.

I don't know what Ero told you before releasing, so I cannot comment on that. For my part, I've never expected PE to be free. From what I can say up to now about it is that it's a figure with many interesting features. From what I've seen so far (I have bought it, just did not have quite enough time to get comfortable with it) the features work- Ero obviously put a lot of work and thought into this figure. PE works for me, I don't think it's expensive for what's included.

From my point of view, and as a guy who bought most of the stuff you've offered, starting with Kii and the first GND set I would prefer it if you would keep this kind of stuff out of the forum. I get that you are angry about Ero, you expected Project E to be free or here at Rendo or something.

I don't think that a good, new figure need to be free. V4 wasn't free when she started her run. Pauline and Antonia are both free, both figures aren't very popular amongst vendors. AmbientShade got that right.

If you have problems with Ero's "I've sacrificed years of my life.. " stuff, you simply come from a different culture, IMHO. No idea if he lied to you or if both of you just had a misunderstanding. I hope you get over it, because PE is, in my very humble opinion, the best Poser figure I've seen so far. But People won't use it if the vendors don't support it. I get that the customer base isn't that great yet, but that may change. It may change if this figure is supported by the vendors. IMHO it's worth it.

I like PE, I want to see stuff for it. I will buy stuff for it. I don't think PE is expensive. but I also don't think that it would hurt to make the demo a bit more usable for people with small Money. Also, offering the figure here would probably make it more popular. Just saying, Ero. IMHO the ProjectE should be on Rendo and CP as well. Also IMHO.

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

Hi bantha,

This has nothing to do with me. I was on the beta, I looked over the figure and decided I'd wait until I was sure the mesh/rigging/uvs were finalized -- I planned on starting on a morph pack for it to be ready when it was released. The only reason I haven't is because there were still changes being made around Christmas, so I moved on to other projects while I waited for everything to be 100% finalized. This is totally normal and wouldn't ever upset me in the slightest, it's just the way projects work sometimes.

My issue is with how he's conned stores and vendors for support and to take advantage of their staff, resources and marketing with the "we all have to work together on this or we're going to lose the Daz war" pitch, alluded to joint releases and made promises that a fully functional base figure will always be available for free (I specifically asked him to clarify this in the private PE forum that Renderosity staff set up for him). Meanwhile he's had an exclusivity agreement with CGBytes right from the start, and he's admitted that the demo figure he is releasing is intended to funnel traffic from Renderosity to CGBytes.

So again let me clarify: I have no problem with people making profit. I have no problem with PE, I'm happy every time something new is released for Poser. I do have a problem with the lack of ethics.

Blackhearted posted at 3:29PM Fri, 26 January 2018 - #4323102

Hi bantha,

This has nothing to do with me. I was on the beta, I looked over the figure and decided I'd wait until I was sure the mesh/rigging/uvs were finalized -- I planned on starting on a morph pack for it to be ready when it was released. The only reason I haven't is because there were still changes being made around Christmas, so I moved on to other projects while I waited for everything to be 100% finalized. This is totally normal and wouldn't ever upset me in the slightest, it's just the way projects work sometimes.

My issue is with how he's conned stores and vendors for support and to take advantage of their staff, resources and marketing with the "we all have to work together on this or we're going to lose the Daz war" pitch, alluded to joint releases and made promises that a fully functional base figure will always be available for free (I specifically asked him to clarify this in the private PE forum that Renderosity staff set up for him). Meanwhile he's had an exclusivity agreement with CGBytes right from the start, and he's admitted that the demo figure he is releasing is intended to funnel traffic from Renderosity to CGBytes.

So again let me clarify: I have no problem with people making profit. I have no problem with PE, I'm happy every time something new is released for Poser. I do have a problem with the lack of ethics.

When you are in a hole, stop digging......

You aren't doing your brand or storefront any favors.

Blackhearted, I realize this is how you see the situation, which is your right. But the way you have phrased the last post ... and the verbiage you are using can be seen as a personal attack by some and that is against the TOS. I know this is frustrating. But as has been said, the disagreement is best dealt with privately. This way we can move on with our products and our forums in a constructive manner.

Boni

---

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

" But the way you have phrased the last post ... and the verbiage you are using can be seen as a personal attack by some" ...?

that was at cronies. a few posts back...

who's brought the sodas?

Which reminds me that Flame Painter 3 is for sale

Flame away!

Boni posted at 12:46AM Sat, 27 January 2018 - #4323112

Blackhearted, I realize this is how you see the situation, which is your right. But the way you have phrased the last post ... and the verbiage you are using can be seen as a personal attack by some and that is against the TOS. I know this is frustrating. But as has been said, the disagreement is best dealt with privately. This way we can move on with our products and our forums in a constructive manner.

Respectfully disagree.

Sure, it's not great to see people fighting on the forum and as far as the TOS goes, I support that but...

If Blackhearted is correct, it needs addressing and, out in the open is, I believe, in the best interests of all concerned.

I wasn't party to any discussions or agreements regarding PE, so I have no idea what the intent was. I don't recall any statements from anyone regarding where, when and how the product would be released but that's not to say they didn't happen, nor that they did. I'd like to know, however, in order to make an informed decision.

For the record, I have nothing against either party involved. I like the figure and admire the amount of care and attention given to it; I've said positive things in many threads. I also have a lot of time for Blackhearted; I've bought a lot of his stuff over the years and he's always been fine with me in any contact we've had.

I'd like to know what's what, that's all.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

I wanted to write something snarky here, but I suddenly realized that there's just no satisfying some people, no matter what I'd say. My mind just doesn't bend that way.

So: Ero, thanks for your hard work. Thanks for releasing a full figure that utilizes all of your experience in Poser. Thanks for releasing it for a measly $30. Thanks for getting some vendor content creators excited again about a Poser figure.

Signed,

A "Crony"

Personally, Id like to applaud Blackhearted, for defending an ethical standpoint. For it is far too rare in this biz. I appreciate his honesty, and even his bluntness. And if anyone chooses to avoid his amazing products based on all that, they are quite frankly, dumb.

I honestly have no dog in the fight, I am merely a spectator on the topic. But had I been more involved, I might have felt misled. I'm also really surprised renderosity would allow such filtering to a competitive website... that in and of itself seems wrong to me. I think its quite magnanimous of them to allow it.

And can I just say... all this war on daz stuff is silly nonsense. The only people dividing the community, are the ones who maintain this position. We are all in this for the same reason: Coz we love 3D. Lets keep it about that love, and less about versus.

IgnisSerpentus posted at 6:04AM Sat, 27 January 2018 - #4323123

Personally, Id like to applaud Blackhearted, for defending an ethical standpoint. For it is far too rare in this biz. I appreciate his honesty, and even his bluntness. And if anyone chooses to avoid his amazing products based on all that, they are quite frankly, dumb.

I honestly have no dog in the fight, I am merely a spectator on the topic. But had I been more involved, I might have felt misled. I'm also really surprised renderosity would allow such filtering to a competitive website... that in and of itself seems wrong to me. I think its quite magnanimous of them to allow it.

And can I just say... all this war on daz stuff is silly nonsense. The only people dividing the community, are the ones who maintain this position. We are all in this for the same reason: Coz we love 3D. Lets keep it about that love, and less about versus.

Personal attacks in a public forum are against TOS at Renderosity.

Apart from that it is a very one side view of what happened. There is a free base figure on both Rendo and CGB, The simultaneous release of the final figure on both Rendo and CGB might still happen,

I have no problem Blackhearted expressing his concerns about erogenesis business ethics, but I do have a problem with him repeating this again and again without taking this to email or PM.

You see it as repeating it again and again. I see it as clarifying and stating the same position in defense against other people who have attacked him and his POV.

Perspective is a funneh thing.

wimvdb posted at 3:22AM Sat, 27 January 2018 - #4323129

Personal attacks in a public forum are against TOS at Renderosity.

Apart from that it is a very one side view of what happened. There is a free base figure on both Rendo and CGB, The simultaneous release of the final figure on both Rendo and CGB might still happen,

I have no problem Blackhearted expressing his concerns about erogenesis business ethics, but I do have a problem with him repeating this again and again without taking this to email or PM.

"I have a problem with your ethics" is not a personal attack. Meanwhile we're on the third page of personal attacks against me.

There are only two things that get me riled up after spending nearly two decades in this community. One of them is copyright infringements, the other is unethical behavior. And I'm willing to take a stand on either of them, alone if necessary: if someone calls my behavior into question I can answer it myself instead of contacting the long list of people I roped into this product to come defend my actions. Several of the people slinging insults at me in this thread have a direct financial motive since they're involved in the project or developing content for PE.

Promises and other stuff aside, selling PE just at one store hurts PE. I doubt that it really helps the store. I bought PE there and was gone seconds later.

There are a lot of people who don't post at the forums, proably don't read much here and won't even see that a new figure is out. If you cannot reach this people, they won't buy stuff for PE, and the market share will stay at the Antonia level - nearly none. So releasing PE just at CGbytes will send them a couple of bucks for selling them, but from my pont of view it is likely that a lot of potential customers just won't see PE. They won't buy it.

@Blackhearted, I understand your problems with Ero. Still, other people may just like the product and either don't know the facts ( I did not from your first post ) or do not care where PE is sold. Calling them cronies does not nessesarily strengthen your point.

So, if you question Ero's ethics, what should be the consequences? Should we ignore PE, even if it's a great figure? Should we praise it, but call Ero names? (This one is probably against the TOS, though)

@Ero, PE doesn't have much stuff for it right now. In my opinion, as a former Rendo mod who had to check the galleries and look at a lot of picures there,, I think that there are lot of "Make Art Button" renders. There are people who click a figure, click an outfit, click a Pose, a Light and a Background. Your description on how clothes should be converted is very good, IMHO, but I doubt that they will try it. You need those people to buy PE if you want PE to become a popular figure. That won't happen if you cannot convince the content creators to support it. Just saying. Others may thing the same thing as BH, but won't say it loudly in the forum. PE is now out for a while and I see the beautifull stuff that Karanta has done. Sadly, her clothes need the Cloth room, so they are too complicated to use for a lot of people. So if there is a problem with any content creator, including Blackhearted, try to fix it. Just my opinion.

We don't need another niche figure with minimal support. It seems to me that CGbytes cannot provide it, way to few new releases. Zero new stuff for PE there. If you really want to support them, sell the figure everywhere and send them a share. Just my opinion.

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

And can I just say... all this war on daz stuff is silly nonsense.

Thank you sir!! Trying to promote your product based on fomenting peoples hatred of competing companies products has not proven to be an effective strategy in the long run.

Apple Inc. did not become more valuable than Exxon mobile by making Childish& Emotional rallying cries of "War" against Microsoft or even Samsung ,despite to silly lawsuit over "round cornered Smart phone glass". They did so creating innovative and user friendly tech products and yes.. Slick somewhat youth oriented & clever marketing.

Your description on how clothes should be converted is very good, IMHO, but I doubt that they will try it.

Indeed if people dont try it it is more of a Poser application shortcoming than the PE figure itself

A figure rig can only be as easy to use as the application ,upon which it depends, enables ease of use. Even Ero himself pubicly Blamed Poser ,here in this forum, for all of the delays and near cancellation of this project.

My website

YouTube Channel

All the bitchiness here in this thread is rather disappointing, frankly. :( Lets not get lost in disagreements over so-called "ethics". Let's concentrate on the FIGURE herself - how she performs. Like other 3rd party Poser figures, she'll survive only if other modellers produce stuff for her. Who remembers Apollo Maximus these days? It's early days yet for PE, I'm hoping she catches on.

Thank you freyfaxi62 ...

Boni

---

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

stop fighting, make content - damit !!! ;-)

book mark

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

-Timberwolf- posted at 12:54PM Mon, 29 January 2018 - #4323266

stop fighting, make content - damit !!! ;-)

Alex for Project Evolution

Available here in the free stuff, Thanks for providing this.

---

Ulli

"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!"

At the end of the day the kids don't care why there parents got divorced they just know there world got turn apart.

every one needs to kiss n make up.

Betrayed

think greater good

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Alex is such a beauty!! Thank you so much for creating this character for PE! She is gorgeous!!!

digitell posted at 6:15AM Tue, 30 January 2018 - #4323333

Alex is such a beauty!! Thank you so much for creating this character for PE! She is gorgeous!!!

Thank you! With my basics worked out, when I have time I’ll create some more characters.

Wonderful! We will look forward to seeing more characters!

Umm, so does this mean no blackhearted morphs for project E?

I don't know if an open source figure will work. The problem with open source is the license (depending on which is used) could be an issue. I did suggest Smith Micro release a complete and fully open source figure in a few threads here and elsewhere but there's no guarantee that such a figure would catch on or be supported.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_and_open-source_software_licenses

Also there are some open source figures already that have had almost no development in the poser community and it's been going on for a very, very long time.

http://www.makehuman.org/

I look forward to supporting figures and generally try to support them if I can scrape up the spare funds. As I've said before even of Daz products, I'd gladly pay for them if there was a poser version that didn't rely on DSON, and in some cases have taken it to myself to purchase and convert them for my own personal use in artwork.

The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.

Kazam561 posted at 6:19PM Mon, 05 February 2018 - #4323831

I don't know if an open source figure will work. The problem with open source is the license (depending on which is used) could be an issue. I did suggest Smith Micro release a complete and fully open source figure in a few threads here and elsewhere but there's no guarantee that such a figure would catch on or be supported.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_and_open-source_software_licenses

Also there are some open source figures already that have had almost no development in the poser community and it's been going on for a very, very long time.

http://www.makehuman.org/

I look forward to supporting figures and generally try to support them if I can scrape up the spare funds. As I've said before even of Daz products, I'd gladly pay for them if there was a poser version that didn't rely on DSON, and in some cases have taken it to myself to purchase and convert them for my own personal use in artwork.

,zBrush comes with a few ,LW n C4D has some also.is make human open source ? it's easy to model characters some app's easier then others. anyway it's way way easier to rig n all your characters in app's like Blender ,LW, C4D then Poser or DAZ. So I can make a character in few days in a app that I have killer dynamics partials ect ect n a real time render engine. So if we have these skills why would we work on a open source DAZ Poser character that we don't need ? to wait 3 days on a render or have some dude that won't take the time to learn the skills to cry we didn't make her muscles lines the way the dude wanted ? no body's going to work for free just to get abused.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Alex is a lovely!! RobZhena, you have done a great job, thank you!!! And thanks for sharing so freely, what a treat!!

Boni

---

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

RorrKonn posted at 9:03AM Tue, 06 February 2018 - #4323843

Kazam561 posted at 6:19PM Mon, 05 February 2018 - #4323831

I look forward to supporting figures and generally try to support them if I can scrape up the spare funds. As I've said before even of Daz products, I'd gladly pay for them if there was a poser version that didn't rely on DSON, and in some cases have taken it to myself to purchase and convert them for my own personal use in artwork.

,zBrush comes with a few ,LW n C4D has some also.is make human open source ? it's easy to model characters some app's easier then others. anyway it's way way easier to rig n all your characters in app's like Blender ,LW, C4D then Poser or DAZ. So I can make a character in few days in a app that I have killer dynamics partials ect ect n a real time render engine. So if we have these skills why would we work on a open source DAZ Poser character that we don't need ? to wait 3 days on a render or have some dude that won't take the time to learn the skills to cry we didn't make her muscles lines the way the dude wanted ? no body's going to work for free just to get abused.

Very good points. People sometimes like to complain. Blender has seen some big strides in it's development. There are always the groups that would prefer having pre-made characters to making them (some of it is skill level, some of it is people wanting to work faster). Make Human is open source though I'd expect a possible open source character that might be better from the Unity Game engine users. There is no pleasing everyone as you said. I remember when Unity first came out and many figures were muscle bound body builders in everything. I know Daz has adapted some of it's product for Unity (not crazy at all about their Unity store design) but none of it is open source. As far as making a physically accurate figure with muscle morphs, it takes time and investments by the creators. I don't fault them for wanting some recompense for their efforts. I think an open source figure funded maybe by some sort of donation drive (similar to Patreon or kickstarter) with a team of developers (ala Blender as an example) might work.

The dust settled, thinking "what a fine home, at least for now" not realizing that doom would soon be coming in the form of a vacuum cleaner.

I read the blackhearted post for the first time and was disappointed. I don't get it. Ero has never misrepresented that PE is an early (rushed for us) release and may still need work.. Whatever the personal disagreement, never flame another person on a public venue. Always settle it in private especially if there will be disagreement about your position among others "in the room". So far I have read only one negative rant. BH may have a vendor perspective that I am unaware of being an end user, but the way the issue was presented was inappropriate and "blackhearted".

Boni posted at 5:04PM Tue, 06 February 2018 - #4323865

Alex is a lovely!! RobZhena, you have done a great job, thank you!!! And thanks for sharing so freely, what a treat!!

Thank you, Boni,

RobZhena posted at 7:06PM Tue, 06 February 2018 - #4323927

Boni posted at 5:04PM Tue, 06 February 2018 - #4323865

Alex is a lovely!! RobZhena, you have done a great job, thank you!!! And thanks for sharing so freely, what a treat!!

Thank you, Boni,

At least Boni has some manners.

Killer RobZhena ,Thanks

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Kazam561 : Even Hollywood can't make a realistic looken CGI character animation. never seen one on youtube either. I just don't think we have the software to make a realistic looken CGI character animation. CGI is good for metal works n cartoons.

A CGI black n white still might pass as realistic but that's about it.

PE makes me think realism might be possible but I'm good with cool.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Wow... just wow... this thread is exhibit A of why myself and many others have stepped out of this community.
Nobody can really win can they... Release a figure open source and for free with latest tech....people bitch... no support.. Re-Do a popular figure from scratch AND provide clothing transfer ... people bitch ... no support several figures get released for modest fees... still more bitching and no support. Release the most complete and up to date figure yet, chok full of morphs and skins for around the same price as a good clothing set or morph texture pack for other figures (with morphs and textures that rival those add on sets)... guess what.. still more bitching and no support... seriously, the forums all need to have an automatic reply feature where if anyone posts any complaint or concern about lack of content it automatically posts a reply saying "GO F---- YOURSELF! We, as a community, don't want new content!! we just want to bitch everything and everybody into the ground! Now STFU and go render more V4 crap!"

Good luck all!