I noticed that the development team is working on implementing Poser to function with the latest and shiniest Mac OS, which I suppose is great.

However, will this curtail those of us using older OSs from upgrading? I use 10.10, because the software packages I need for work function best in that environment. Will I be SOL with the new version?

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Where is this Poser development article?

https://www.renderosity.com/3-things-to-know-about-posers-development-cms-21664

I almost completely missed it since my email natively blocks images. :(

SeanMartin ( ) ( ) posted at 5:24PM Wed, 14 August 2019

I noticed that the development team is working on implementing Poser to function with the latest and shiniest Mac OS, which I suppose is great.

However, will this curtail those of us using older OSs from upgrading? I use 10.10, because the software packages I need for work function best in that environment. Will I be SOL with the new version?

Being an ex-Mac user myself, I had to give it up because my Mac wouldn't run Poser 11. It wasn't Poser's fault. My Mac just couldn't support the new OS upgrade. If your Mac will let you upgrade to the newest Apple OS, then you should be able to use the next version of Poser. If not, and you can't afford to upgrade, you might want to stay where you are for now until you can.

Odds are excellent they're doing it because MacOS is making them do it.

Given the fairly long tail of backwards compatibility in MacOS, odds are pretty good that Poser.latest will still run in Yosemite for at least the next version or two. All bets are off after that, though.

Wait, WTF?

From the article: "One of the improvements we have added is an integrated marketplace search so you can easily purchase content directly through Poser and not have to visit a third-party site"

So, wait - this is where they're spending time and treasure? Really? Nobody (okay, relatively nobody) uses that feature in DS... why mimic that?

shakes head... of all the things they needed to do and could do... fscking PHB mothersuckers.

You have got to be kidding me, we finally get SM to remove the content paradise marketing tab in poser, and they want to bring it back.... Dumb.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

bwldrd posted at 12:29AM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359411

You have got to be kidding me, we finally get SM to remove the content paradise marketing tab in poser, and they want to bring it back.... Dumb.

Oh CR*P!! ~bangs head on keyboard~

_______________

OK . . . Where's my chocolate?

Butterfly Dezignz

I don't see the harm in it. SM never implemented it very well to begin with and pretty much wanted nothing to do with CP anyway. Rosity is a content store, so naturally they're going to find ways to market their content as much as possible, because that's what pays the bills.

Well, It was hilarious and pathetic reading anyway.

The good news in the transfer was that all SM Mantis Poser application bug reports where transferred to Renderosity.

Posers weak point has always been content and guess what? => Mantis content reporting bugs, (950+ reports) are still at SM. Dumb oversight or is SM hiding all the previous content mistakes from Renderosity?

With no content bug information transfer, I fear that content quality is going further down the drain.

Been Posering since Poser 1, and testing for 10 years, most of us "old-timers" where hoping for better content with less errors.

With no content bug transfer, how can you expect a "new" beta team to find anything? Start all over again? Backtrack 20 years or so?

We wanted Poser to go FORWARDS, but all we'v seen so far is banning of the "old-timers" because we know too much.

Hey! Guess what?

Amazing news!

Great timing!

Good things on the way!

Because...........

no one has to click on the Marketing Tab if they find it offensive!!!!!!!!!!

Amazing, isn't it?

Now, can we please get back to the original post and stay on topic?

AmbientShade posted at 6:27AM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359421

I don't see the harm in it. SM never implemented it very well to begin with and pretty much wanted nothing to do with CP anyway. Rosity is a content store, so naturally they're going to find ways to market their content as much as possible, because that's what pays the bills.

You're absolutely right.

Now look at everything they could be doing with the application - fixing bugs, overhauling it for future-proofing, adding features that would help it exceed the competition...

I'm sure they're likely doing some of that, but this marketing thing is a diversion, and I daresay few-to-nobody will use it. It kinda reeks of some MBA brainchild that got cheers at the board meeting, but will (as DAZ found out), turn out to be as popular as New Coke (or worse, Zima). I mean, what use would anyone have for a feature that installs stuff splattered all over one Runtime chain, all unfindable because it's all named according to vendor ego/will/whim?

Quoth Glitterati3D: "Now, can we please get back to the original post and stay on topic?"

Incidentally, I thought the topic of the thread was "Poser Development Article". This worthless feature is in that article. Now if OP doesn't want to talk about it, cool, but you're not OP, so...

The OP was about Mac OS questions.

Not an opportunity for all the Debbie Downers/Chronic Complainers to come into the thread and search for some non-existent issue to complain about.

As stated previously the primary reason for this bridge release (11.2) is to transfer poser to the new licencing system. Major bug squashing efforts or additional features were never in scope for this update.

meatSim posted at 8:22AM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359479

As stated previously the primary reason for this bridge release (11.2) is to transfer poser to the new licencing system. Major bug squashing efforts or additional features were never in scope for this update.

Additional features I understand. As mentioned elsewhere, a new codebase takes time to get a handle on. Bugs OTOH? Yeah, maybe they should have spent some time on that - at least the ugliest and the low-hanging-fruitish ones. I was initially just curious as to why (well, nevermind, I already know why, and it's a dumb MBA-driven reason) they chose to spend precious time/effort on an in-app marketing thing that industry experience w/ other apps (likely including the app's own history, curiously enough) should have shouted from the rooftops at them that hardly, if anybody, uses such a mechanism. Now if they overcome the hurdles that come with making one's Runtime directory structure/orgnization a raging mess and a PITA to fix when you use it, cool, but...

Changing to a new licensing scheme makes perfect sense, especially if the old one relied on an active website at SmithMicro to activate and maintain. It's one of the big reasons I'm hanging back on buying Poser.latest for a bit (after seeing a related article on the subject), so I can avoid all that license-limbo crap and just wait for Rendo to sort that out.

The marketing tab doesnt doesnt bother me. Given that Rosity has far more quality content, it could actually be useful for a change — and given that the store owns it, it makes sense. Dont want to use it? Ignore it. I doubt it's going to take up that much coding space anyway, since it would just be a handy gateway to the store and probably not a lot more.

As for what happens with Mac requirements and PoserPro 14 and beyond, I'll be dead by then, so I'm not terribly concerned. In the short term however...

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

SeanMartin posted at 9:35AM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359484

As for what happens with Mac requirements and PoserPro 14 and beyond, I'll be dead by then, so I'm not terribly concerned. In the short term however...

In the short term, unless they specifically put in a check/prohibition, or their product calls a library that did/does not exist in Yosemite (MacOS 10.10), you should most likely be good to go.

PS: What's all this crap about you being dead, you dweeb? You ain't allowed to do that.

Well, not yet, of course. But given the five-year span between versions, it's pretty unlikely I'll be around three versions down the road. Then they're all yours, bud.....

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Meh - might be, might not be mine. Come August 23, I'll be three years older than I'm supposed to be. ;)

(Half of this forum almost got their wish that day, but I had the extraordinary luck to vapor-lock less than a mile from one of the premiere CICUs in the Pacific Northwest. Damn we're gettin' old.)

Why do you think they spent a lot of time on the content tab? Being as it was already in the code base in the older versions that pointed to Content Paradise basically all one would need do is change the URL of where to go to point you at content to purchase. That is like 5 minutes work tops. The harder part will be with the store to make sure you get Poser items and not something else

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

Richard60 posted at 8:08PM Fri, 16 August 2019 - #4359629

Why do you think they spent a lot of time on the content tab? Being as it was already in the code base in the older versions that pointed to Content Paradise basically all one would need do is change the URL of where to go to point you at content to purchase. That is like 5 minutes work tops.

There's quite a bit more than that, since it's basically a mini-browser inside the application. This in turn means 4 years or so of security updates and CVE-scouring at the very least (at least I hope they paid attention to security... and no, just because it hits one base URL does not make it immune to attacks and vulns, I promise you.) But, there's also a bit more, as you intimated here...

The harder part will be with the store to make sure you get Poser items and not something else

Semi-sorta - pretty sure Rendo already tags that to some extent. The work is in getting the application to recognize and hit the Bondware (Rendo site's) API securely (and in a way that doesn't expose their API to schmucks who are a lot like me, but with bad intent), then make use of it in a way that keeps it at least somewhat seamless.

Personally, it would have been way faster and easier to put a big "Find new products!' button/Menu-item/something that calls the user's default browser, and in turn puts the onus of patching/security/etc on the browser-maker. Doing all that crap in-app is a lot of work for (IMHO) little-to-no return on that investment.

Richard60 posted at 9:28AM Sat, 17 August 2019 - #4359629

Why do you think they spent a lot of time on the content tab? Being as it was already in the code base in the older versions that pointed to Content Paradise basically all one would need do is change the URL of where to go to point you at content to purchase. That is like 5 minutes work tops. The harder part will be with the store to make sure you get Poser items and not something else

There's a big ol' tab at the top of the MP page marked "software". Check it out.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

I read the article and if the software is "subscription" then no thanks...... I will not return to Poser under those conditions. Poser must also be able to handle Daz Gen 3 and Gen 8 models or a new version will be useless to me. I will not give up the Gen 3 and Gen 8 models for Paul and his dorky girlfriend

I'm really not wild about tying Poser into the Renderosity store so tightly. The first thing I did with the Content Paradise tab was hide it. I kept accidentally clicking on it. I hope they at least allow you to opt out somehow.

I can understand why they want to do it, but I despised it when e-On did it with Vue. With Vue, it showed you items for sale at Cornucopia3D as if they were items you already owned. There was a little logo that indicated that you had to buy it to use it, but just scrolling past all those items that you didn't actually own was a huge PITA. If you deleted them off your hard drive, they would be re-spawned. Hate, hate, hate, hate, hate.

Then they had that security breach...

Well we have come to a situation where the development of the program has to be subsidized by the income of sale of content.

If the choice is updated Poser with a sales link and no updated Poser at all, my preference goes to the first.

FVerbaas posted at 12:13PM Sat, 17 August 2019 - #4359671

Well we have come to a situation where the development of the program has to be subsidized by the income of sale of content.

If the choice is updated Poser with a sales link and no updated Poser at all, my preference goes to the first.

I could understand that, but...does it actually work? The Content Paradise tab didn't seem very successful, and Cornucopia3D is no more, after a security breach that took it offline, apparently forever. (The URL was offline for a long time; it forwards you to e-On's main site now.)

As Penguinisto pointed out, there's a cost to doing this, if only in keeping up with security issues, and it's not clear it's worth benefits.

Well as far as launching a web browser to the store, that function is in poser, under the help menu. Weblinks. I'm pretty sure most people never even realized that you can delete that folder in your runtime to get rid of them, or if wanted take a look at one and make a new one for Renderosity, etc.

Example a txt file renamed as Renderosity - New Poser products.pzs with the contents https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/?br=new&software_family=poser .. will show up in the help menu and launch to new poser products in a browser.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

I have heard talk of Poser maybe going to a subscription service like Photoshop has done, but I don't see specified it in that article. Am I missing something? Read it twice -- I need new glasses -- and all I could glean way that it was not out of the question some time down the road. If that happens, I'll stop with PP 2014 or whichever next version is owned not rented.

Where do any of you find any thing that says that it is going subscription? The only thing the article says is that they have setup a new validation server which is what Poser 2014GD and Poser 11 have being using for the last several years. Please provide a valid link.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

Richard60 posted at 8:15AM Sun, 18 August 2019 - #4359725

Where do any of you find any thing that says that it is going subscription? The only thing the article says is that they have setup a new validation server which is what Poser 2014GD and Poser 11 have being using for the last several years. Please provide a valid link.

There is no explicit statement anywhere that Poser will be going subscription. Someone in the article, who, I don't know, and only in an answer to a question, said that there are some people for it and against it. JennBlake has denied it as a rumor, but it's apparently taken on a life of it's own.

Richard60 posted at 10:17AM Sun, 18 August 2019 - #4359725

Where do any of you find any thing that says that it is going subscription? The only thing the article says is that they have setup a new validation server which is what Poser 2014GD and Poser 11 have being using for the last several years. Please provide a valid link.

It was posted at Facebook. You have to expand the replies to see the comment that's freaking people out.

Someone asked if Poser was going subscription like Photoshop, and the official reply was:

"No for now. SM used a third-party to manage licenses, and we are not continuing with that agreement. We have people on both sides of the subscription model, so we are still deciding."

Poser must also be able to handle Daz Gen 3 and Gen 8 models or a new version will be useless to me.

Then tell DAZ to get on with it, but dont expect Rosity to implement something that isnt going to result in revenue for it.

Further, given that DAZ changes the rules with each new iteration, do you expect Poser to drop everything and figure out how to make the now-newest thing work for you? What happens when DAZ moves on to Gen 9 — which it inevitably will — and your girlfriends wind up collecting dust because now you're more entranced with this new girlfriend? Will you expect Rosity to engineer it so you can make that one work in Poser as well?

Sorry, but I am really over this. If you want DAZ materials to work in Poser, then talk to DAZ about it. If they dont want to make the additional revenue off it, then it's not Rosity's problem.

Have a nice day.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

EClark1894 posted at 1:57PM Mon, 19 August 2019 - #4359391

SeanMartin ( ) ( ) posted at 5:24PM Wed, 14 August 2019 However, will this curtail those of us using older OSs from upgrading? I use 10.10, because the software packages I need for work function best in that environment. Will I be SOL with the new version? Being an ex-Mac user myself, I had to give it up because my Mac wouldn't run Poser 11. It wasn't Poser's fault. My Mac just couldn't support the new OS upgrade.

Will your Mac run El Capitan (10.11.6) ? My old Macbook can't go beyond El Cap, but poser 11 runs perfectly on it.

SeanMartin posted at 6:39AM Mon, 19 August 2019 - #4359794

Poser must also be able to handle Daz Gen 3 and Gen 8 models or a new version will be useless to me.

Then tell DAZ to get on with it, but dont expect Rosity to implement something that isnt going to result in revenue for it.

DAZ doesn't have to care - why should they make a figure compatible for someone else's product, when they can just tell you to export to FBX format (which numerous other applications do use)? They did the math, and Poser-centric sales of Genesis stuff isn't worth the effort in their estimation (doubly so when you consider the sheer amount of stuff, even in the Marketplace here , for the Genesis figures.)

However, Poser should care, if they're trying to attract customers and income... they could get around the whole mess by importing FBX format faithfully if they don't already (and as a bonus, suddenly they can take in content from or export content to a horde of other applications, pro or amateur.)

FBX solves all that... and the specs are public

Sorry, Peng, but no. If DAZ wants to make content compatable with Poser — which they should, since they built their rep on it in the first place, and the only reason they dont support it now was from a snit they got into a decade ago over the Face room — then let them have at it and make it so and realize the bucks accordingly. But asking now Rosity to jump through hoops every time DAZ changes the way it approaches its figures' rigging? Nope.

Yes, there's a lot of content here for the Gen8 Barbies. Is the profit margin such that Rosity should throw in and support these figures? If that's the case, then prhaps DAZ shuold return the favour and throw in some support for its Poser base as well.

And we know how likely that's going to be, right?

Everyone talks about how DAZ has such a stranglehold on the market because Studio is free and Poser isnt. What I find curious is why prices at Daz have consistently risen, even for character meshes they dont even have available anymore... which suggests things in Utah arent as rosy as one might think. Perhaps it's time for both programs to start working together, but at this point, DAZ is gonna have to make the first sincere move. IMHO, of course.

Carry on.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

OT:

What happens when DAZ moves on to Gen 9 — which it inevitably will

I have custom chars that I originally built in Vicky and Mike 4 whose shapes and characteristics are now on Genesis 8 figures. It's actually fairly easy to transfer the characters with the built-in tools (and thanks to Blacksmith3D, I recently brought their skins up to snuff, converted to iRay, then used a similar character's skin on each for SSS and other goodies.)

I even pulled this off recently with a Victoria 3 skin (Momiji from Momcat.)

SeanMartin posted at 7:29AM Mon, 19 August 2019 - #4359807

Yes, there's a lot of content here for the Gen8 Barbies. Is the profit margin such that Rosity should throw in and support these figures? If that's the case, then prhaps DAZ shuold return the favour and throw in some support for its Poser base as well.

They kinda did, by building in the ability to import nearly all Poser content. ;)

But, we're viewing this from opposite angles, and I'm okay with that, because...

Thing is, instead of demanding that either application reach out directly to the other, why not go neutral? Use a univeral(-ish) format that both can partake of, and in the process become more appealing to the larger CG community?

Forget DAZ for a minute. Poser had(has?) a reputation for being used (even if on the down-low) by even the biggest CG snobs, pro or amateur - especially when time and/or budget is tight for a small project.

So why not capitalize on that a little more by adding to the import/export repertoire? Hence my suggestion of FBX, which is useful in multiple directions :)

What I find curious is why prices at Daz have consistently risen, even for character meshes they dont even have available anymore... which suggests things in Utah arent as rosy as one might think. Perhaps it's time for both programs to start working together, but at this point, DAZ is gonna have to make the first sincere move. IMHO, of course.

No idea... but DAZ has long since left the days when it was a rowdy startup led by crazy mofos (no, seriously, it was a blast back then). Nowadays it's probably rather corporate, what with a non-founder CEO and suchlike. What I'm getting at is that nowadays, they're likely driven more by growth and profit than by being a bunch of artists jumping at it with full abandon. I don't know for certain, though, and it's just guesswork on my part.

BUT... that said, I do know from conversations with old friends there that Utah is getting more and more expensive to live in of late... the Layton nice-neighborhood suburban McMansion that I paid $130k for in 2000, now has a Zillow/Trulia/etc estimate of around $340k_(!?)_ It's even crazier throughout the West Coast, but when CoL in Utah is shooting up that hard...

A_Sunbeam posted at 11:38AM Mon, 19 August 2019 - #4359800

EClark1894 posted at 1:57PM Mon, 19 August 2019 - #4359391

SeanMartin ( ) ( ) posted at 5:24PM Wed, 14 August 2019 However, will this curtail those of us using older OSs from upgrading? I use 10.10, because the software packages I need for work function best in that environment. Will I be SOL with the new version? Being an ex-Mac user myself, I had to give it up because my Mac wouldn't run Poser 11. It wasn't Poser's fault. My Mac just couldn't support the new OS upgrade.

Will your Mac run El Capitan (10.11.6) ? My old Macbook can't go beyond El Cap, but poser 11 runs perfectly on it.

Nope, 10.6.8 was as high as I managed to upgrade. Poser 10 runs for me, but not 11.

Peng, Poser has had FBX import/export for a couple of versions now, from PoserPro 2014 (not sure if just the Game Dev version or standard PoserPro 2014) up.

I use it sometimes to bring things over from Studio.

SeanMartin posted at 3:33PM Mon, 19 August 2019 - #4359495

Well, not yet, of course. But given the five-year span between versions, it's pretty unlikely I'll be around three versions down the road. Then they're all yours, bud.....

Phssh! Oh please. We're still burping you,bud. If you're older than color TV then you can talk! ?

Did everyone read the article? These are the two lines the OP was talking about.

On the Mac side, we are updating the code to the latest Apple compatibility. This means updating code base to work with latest Xcode, which is Apple's integrated development environment for macOS for developing software.

The amount of time it took for us to digress was faster than the expansion of the universe. I'm not a MAC user but updating to the latest code for Mac sounds like a good thing. The rest will take time. I'd rather Renderosity get it right rather than get it fast. I don't wish to become an uncompensated beta tester for a buggy release ala Windows 8 and Vista. Still, keep the suggestions coming.

raven posted at 6:52PM Mon, 19 August 2019 - #4359846

Peng, Poser has had FBX import/export for a couple of versions now, from PoserPro 2014 (not sure if just the Game Dev version or standard PoserPro 2014) up.

I use it sometimes to bring things over from Studio.

Sweet - so how's the export/import of the Genesis figures? I figured that would be the fastest/easiest way to faithfully bring stuff over. (I figured with all the complaining about DSON exporting - urgh - that nobody thought to just use FBX.)

quietrob posted at 6:55PM Mon, 19 August 2019 - #4359849

Phssh! Oh please. We're still burping you,bud. If you're older than color TV then you can talk! ?

Careful...he's likely somewhere between that and The Wheel.

The amount of time it took for us to digress was faster than the expansion of the universe. I'm not a MAC user but updating to the latest code for Mac sounds like a good thing.

1. It is a good thing to get that right, and

2. I know you're not new here when it comes to the subject of digression...

The rest will take time. I'd rather Renderosity get it right rather than get it fast. I don't wish to become an uncompensated beta tester for a buggy release ala Windows 8 and Vista. Still, keep the suggestions coming.

(update Python. To hell with everything else.)

Penguinisto posted at 3:09AM Tue, 20 August 2019 - #4359864

Sweet - so how's the export/import of the Genesis figures? I figured that would be the fastest/easiest way to faithfully bring stuff over. (I figured with all the complaining about DSON exporting - urgh - that nobody thought to just use FBX.)

To be honest, I haven't brought a Genesis character over using FBX or any other means, I'm not that interested in it knowing I wouldn't be getting the full benefit of it in Poser. I think if i wanted to use Genesis, I would just use Studio. I generally use FBX for props that are only in .duf format.

I think if i wanted to use Genesis, I would just use Studio

Indeed ..however ,for a variety of reasons, the majority of those (who post here at least) will never...ever!! leave the myopic little comfort bubble of the Kia Krause 1990's poser interface.

Hence we still routinely see this long dead &utterly absurd notion that "Daz somehow needs to make a genesis figure that works in poser" etc etc etc.

My website

YouTube Channel

wolf359 posted at 5:42AM Tue, 20 August 2019 - #4359888

I think if i wanted to use Genesis, I would just use Studio

Indeed ..however ,for a variety of reasons, the majority of those (who post here at least) will never...ever!! leave the myopic little comfort bubble of the Kia Krause 1990's poser interface.

Hence we still routinely see this long dead &utterly absurd notion that "Daz somehow needs to make a genesis figure that works in poser" etc etc etc.

So you're saying that the only reason DAZ won't make a Genesis figure compatible with Poser is because of the Krause interface?

BTW, I never really liked the Krause interface. Didn't like it in Bryce and didn't like it when Poser switched to it in version 2.

Given that I've explored the DSON .duf & .dsf file formats and have a reasonable python parser script, it occurs to me to question whether FBX format contains sufficient information to transfer inherent characteristics of the source application. E.g. DS uses a different subdivision algorithm to Poser, is the algorithm encoded in FBX? Unless it is, Poser won't be able to regenerate the same subdivision mesh, unless the subdivision vertices are exported in FBX too, which removes the point of subdivision. The HD morphs of DS are encrypted (to prevent piracy, one presumes) with no documentation of the format. Does FBX expose those HD morph deltas? if it does, then the encryption is pointless. If not, then there's yet another source feature which cannot be replicated via FBX transfer to another software platform. Rigging conversions from dual quaternion to tri-ax for Poser compatibility must be performed before FBX has any possibility of providing a meaningful transfer mechanism into Poser, but be aware, that such conversion will not result in the same appearance of bent joints, because the internal algorithms are inherently different and cannot be communicated by simple data transfer.

---

My ShareCG Stuff

Verbosity: Profusely promulgating Graham's number epics of complete and utter verbiage by the metric monkey barrel.

an0malaus posted at 12:41PM Tue, 20 August 2019 - #4359894

Given that I've explored the DSON .duf & .dsf file formats and have a reasonable python parser script, it occurs to me to question whether FBX format contains sufficient information to transfer inherent characteristics of the source application. E.g. DS uses a different subdivision algorithm to Poser, is the algorithm encoded in FBX? Unless it is, Poser won't be able to regenerate the same subdivision mesh, unless the subdivision vertices are exported in FBX too, which removes the point of subdivision. The HD morphs of DS are encrypted (to prevent piracy, one presumes) with no documentation of the format. Does FBX expose those HD morph deltas? if it does, then the encryption is pointless. If not, then there's yet another source feature which cannot be replicated via FBX transfer to another software platform. Rigging conversions from dual quaternion to tri-ax for Poser compatibility must be performed before FBX has any possibility of providing a meaningful transfer mechanism into Poser, but be aware, that such conversion will not result in the same appearance of bent joints, because the internal algorithms are inherently different and cannot be communicated by simple data transfer.

In addition to the above-mentioned, the Genesis figures also have "auto fit" and "auto follow" features that probably wouldn't transfer over via FBX. It's more than just rigging and morphs that would have to carry over for 100% Genesis compatibility in Poser.

So you're saying that the only reason DAZ won't make a Genesis figure compatible with Poser is because of the Krause interface?

No... the reason Daz will never make a Cr2 based version of genesis for poser is because they DO NOT NEED TO :-)

As Peng Correctly stated, a calculation was made by Daz years ago that people who use poser exclusively are not a vital demographic to Daz's business model.

And the ones who will switch Daz studio to get the full Genesis functionality , have already done so.

The growth ,in market share ,comes from appealing to New users ..not from backwards adopting your figure tech for one external program that is still running code from the 1990's.

In addition to the above-mentioned, the Genesis figures also have "auto fit" and "auto follow" features that probably wouldn't transfer over via FBX. It's more than just rigging and morphs that would have to carry over for 100% Genesis compatibility in Poser.

Also an FBX import from Daz studio requires the user to first load the figure into Daz studio to export it in the first place.

Those few remaining people,sadly clinging to the fantasy of a fully function genesis in poser, consider this a deal breaker.

My website

YouTube Channel

Some time, some where, some body, will discover that it is the figures quality that drives the app market.

You can have the best app on the planet, if you continue to feed it with crap figures, it WILL die.

If the Poser figures don't increase in quality EXTREMELY SOON, (obj files, textures and most of all the rigging), it is unfortunately time to call the priest.

And for me myself and I, who have been Posering since Poser 1, that was a very HARD sentence to write.

All what we have seen so far from Renderosity is defending the undefendable, and the banning of people who dare to speak up.

And how "can" Renderosity improve "content"? ? ? ? All 900+ content bug reports are still at SM.... And their current "beta" testers have no clue what to look for.

I will be releasing a beta testers tutorial soon that will clarify many things. LOL. Euh, if I am still around by then. LOL.

quietrob posted at 11:50AM Wed, 21 August 2019 - #4359849

SeanMartin posted at 3:33PM Mon, 19 August 2019 - #4359495

Well, not yet, of course. But given the five-year span between versions, it's pretty unlikely I'll be around three versions down the road. Then they're all yours, bud.....

Phssh! Oh please. We're still burping you,bud. If you're older than color TV then you can talk!

I can still remember party lines and dial phones. I think I predate colour TV by a bit.

Damn kids... :: waving cane, yelling at cloud ::

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

an0malaus posted at 10:22AM Wed, 21 August 2019 - #4359894

Given that I've explored the DSON .duf & .dsf file formats and have a reasonable python parser script, it occurs to me to question whether FBX format contains sufficient information to transfer inherent characteristics of the source application. E.g. DS uses a different subdivision algorithm to Poser, is the algorithm encoded in FBX?

I would suspect that, given your choice of SubD style (Catmull-Clark, Bilinear, Catmark (the proprietary critter), Loop, etc), you could pick that before export... which IIRC are (or were) standardized. Or, just set resolution to Base and SubD to zero, which removes that from the equation entirely (given the intrinsic rez in a G8 figure, I doubt it's gonna distort by enough to really notice - doubly so since morphs are routinely transferred that way between generations of Genesis anyhow).

As for weight-mapping, you can pick that on its way out... it doesn't have to be DualQ - you can flop the figure to TriAx WM in DS before you export it.

but be aware, that such conversion will not result in the same appearance of bent joints, because the internal algorithms are inherently different and cannot be communicated by simple data transfer.

This would be the big bugaboo, though that would almost be the case with any inter-app conversion... you're gonna be stuck with tweaking the skeleton no matter the source or destination app; unless some enterprising soul spends the time to suss it out and provide a donor skeleton and script to transplant a working skel into it post-transfer (because tweaking the transferred rig params by script and expecting consistency on all computers across the land would be like reaching into Gump's box of chocolates and getting what you expected... you likely won't.) Now would a transplantable and working skeleton rig be kosher (or halal if you prefer) copyright-wise? No frickin' clue on a legal sense, but I'd like to think it would be if it's using different math and has a different end-configuration due to how joints are handled, even if it accomplishes the same goal. But again, it'd still be a derivative product, and I ain't no IP lawyer.

...oh, and we haven't even begun to touch on all the friggin' clothing, shoes/accessories and hair(!) that would have to be transferred with the figure. Oh, and anything geograftable would of course not behave the same way, etc - you'd have to do all that geografting first, export as one great big .obj, make a new mapping for that figure that are compatible w/ what you already got, re-import into DS and make a working rigged figure w/ all relevant morphs, then export again as FBX and pray real hard that your computer doesn't go 'splodey when you try to import the resulting dumpster-fire of a file into Poser... only to realize that autofit and most of the clothing morphs don't/won't work like you expected them to.

Gah - why would you even bother at that point?

tonyvilters posted at 10:53AM Wed, 21 August 2019 - #4359970

And how "can" Renderosity improve "content"? ? ? ? All 900+ content bug reports are still at SM.... And their current "beta" testers have no clue what to look for.

to be fair, the bug report DB/site (at least the internal site) is likely part of what Rendo bought, and the bug reports are always included as part of any codebase you buy. It's pretty trivial to peel off a copy of the relevant projects out of, say, Jira, and plop it onto an external HDD (or better yet, if it's all on a separate and distinct Virtual Machine, you just shut down the VM to make it fully quiescent, peel off a copy of it to a portable HDD and ship that to Rendo with a copy of the relevant passwords. Rendo then chucks it into its VM farm, and the rest just sort of takes care of itself after maybe an hour of swapping configs to fit it to its new environment.) The rest is just building a new connection that the users can access and plop stuff onto. If they feel particularly froggy, they might just migrate the stuff from SM's tool to their own (lots of tools out there to do just that...)

Anyrate, w/o getting (err, too far) into the weeds, Rendo likely has the bug reports and just haven't exposed it to the world at large just yet.

I will be releasing a beta testers tutorial soon that will clarify many things. LOL. Euh, if I am still around by then. LOL.

That would be pretty interesting to read. You gonna announce it when you do? (I'm kinda curious, esp. to see what can be picked/learned from it procedure/policy-wise.)

Gah - why would you even bother at that point?

My sentiments exactly. Anyone unwilling to leave the poser comfort bubble is better served using Cr2 based, poser native figures .

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wolf359 posted at 11:10AM Wed, 21 August 2019 - #4360014

Gah - why would you even bother at that point?

My sentiments exactly. Anyone unwilling to leave the poser comfort bubble is better served using Cr2 based, poser native figures .

I had to talk myself to that conclusion... you can almost trace the mis-firing path of neurons in the post you quoted the last bit of ;)

That said, I'm finding stuff happening in the opposite direction as well - the freebie NoName doll (go to the FreeStuff forum) does import to DAZ Studio, but it has rigging issues - surmountable to a point, but you won't be able to morph it too much w/o breaking the rigging. It's still somewhat compatible enough that at least one dude is making a shedload of freebies for it... Meanwhile, from what I've read of Erogenesis' PE figure rigging here and in SM's archived fora, it relies on Poser in ways that DS' Poser import process would likely barf over almost instantly the moment you tried to bend a joint in DS - if it didn't just explode outright. It's good for his figure in Poser, but not-so-good for anyone else (and not just w/ DS - I bet you'd have to rebuild the skeleton entirely in one of the big-boy applications...)

One reason why though, I actually understand, and can be summed up as more than just app-love, but a question: What if I wanted to use LaFemme and Genesis based chars in the same render or video, without having to rely on a buttload of careful P-Shop/GIMP layering/blending to pull it off? (Or, you know, a West-Side Story thang with LaFemme and Michael 8?)

Portability of assets is generally considered a good thing... but alas, it likely ain't gonna happen between these two. At least not anymore, unless DAZ ups their kit to allow importation of features only found in something newer than Poser 6 (or was it 8?)...

What if I wanted to use LaFemme and Genesis based chars in the

same render or video, without having to rely on a buttload of careful

P-Shop/GIMP layering/blending to pull it off? (Or, you know, a

West-Side Story thang with LaFemme and Michael 8?)

Peng My good fellow. I am running a TEN year old version of Maxon Cinema4D (R11.5 studio.)

ZERO native support of the Daz genesis figures from G1 to G8. (and Crap FBX importer from back then)

But Thankfully Daz Studio Exports to .obj /MDD data file for pre-animated meshes with textures and I have the plugin that imports .obj files with textures and their respective MDD data files for motion.

All of the JCM and SubD fidelity is baked into the .obj files exported from Daz studio

My feature length animated, Marvel based ,fan film uses Both poser native and Daz genesis Characters. See clip here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjokKZX1r6I

If poser supported MDD or Alembic Cache file import that loaded the textures they way I do with C4D or Lightwave3D 2015.

One could get genesis figures in poser easily for stills and animation

However (Like FBX),you still have to first EXPORT the content from Daz studio.

Many people will never use Daz Studio as matter of "Principle".

Daz is about to release a DSON based plugin for Maya that gives you the Full "genesis experience" in Maya

See a very early build in action here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9UGtguQoDQ

Daz inc has a strategic/financial interest in CG artists using their figures and content in other programs.

The still render/portrait/pinup crowd that makes up the core Daz user base is a limited demographic for long term growth& sustainability.

However if people at a minimum, REFUSE to install and use the free Daz studio software for export purposes and demand special native format content for their kruft ridden, vestigial legacy application.

Well they will only have figures and content made for their dwindling eco-system.

This is the reality of it.

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Well they will only have figures and content made for their dwindling eco-system.

And hurrah and hurray for you, o enlightened one.

Look, glad you're all happy with Studio. I mean, just bunches of happy for you.

But waltzing in here and slamming a software that the site just bought and is looking to improve... I'm sorry, if this is your way of scoring debate points, you're not doing a very good job. You dont like the interface? How nice. You think the software is dead because it doesnt support Studio's never-ending parade of cookie-cutter, 20-something Barbies? How sad. We're all just devastated. You're positively thrilled that Maya will get the "full Genesis experience"? Buckets of happiness... except that DAZ tried this before and was pretty well dismissed because all it apparently had to offer the 3D world was a bunch of cookie-cutter, 20-something Barbies and not much more of real substance. "But it has more to offer!", you exclaim, pearls appropriately clutched. Maybe so, but the vision it puts out there on the internet is still one of a perveyor of hot yo mama, cookie-cutter, 20-something Barbies, which is precisely why it was so casually dismissed when it tried doing this a decade ago. You're concerned because Daz's demographic is more into pin-ups? It's how they made their fortune, such as it might be, and if that demographic is limited, DAZ did it to itself by showcasing itself as little more than what was needed for that pin-up-making demographic.

And that, sir, is the reality of it.

Now, unless you have something of substance to speak of in a Poser forum — not, I fear for you, a Studio one — then please know that your concerns are noted and someone will get back to you, as DAZ would say, "shortly".

Have a nice day.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Well, I don't want to jump on the "Let's kick Wolf" band wagon, but seriously, was it really necessary to not only make an Studio announcement in a Poser thread, but then to add a link to a demonstration of it in action? And before you say, "well, I was just answering Penguinisto's point, maybe you could have done it in a site mail?

You think the software is dead because it doesnt support Studio's

never-ending parade of cookie-cutter, 20-something Barbies?

No.. the Poser software needs it own high quality females/MALES,environment sets industry standard import export features and modern Character animation tools..or it will die.

You're positively thrilled that Maya will get the "full Genesis

experience"? Buckets of happiness... except that DAZ tried this before

and was pretty well dismissed because all it apparently had to offer the

3D world was a bunch of cookie-cutter, 20-something Barbies .

Indeed what is sad is that Daz does NOT understand the Autodesk user base in the least and this latest DEX plugin will not be embraced by the professional CG/VFX community But not only because of the endless parade of white 20 something chicky poo's.

( Duh...EVERYONE has young pretty white girls, now even Iclone)

But primarily because the Daz ,single workstation content management system is a NON starter for professional team environments no matter how good the content looks in the promo renders.

Sorry, but I am really over this. If you want DAZ materials to work in

Poser, then talk to DAZ about it.

No sir ,dont "talk to daz" about making native poser content, they are too busy making plugins that are Desparately trying to expand their user base beyond the trap of the still/render portrait/pinup crowd , this includes 99.9 percent of the poser users.

You're concerned because Daz's demographic is more into pin-ups? It's

how they made their fortune, such as it might be, and if that

demographic is limited, DAZ did it to itself by showcasing itself as

little >more than what was needed for that pin-up-making demographic.

You are quite correct of course.

Alas Poser( and its user base) has ,long ago sadly done the exact same thing to its reputation and market position using Posette, Daz Vicky-1,2,3,4. and is now eagerly waiting to see which Ideal BMI, 20 something white girl Bondware will coronate to assume the mantle and save the program from oblivion.

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wolf359 posted at 10:16AM Thu, 22 August 2019 - #4360097

Alas Poser( and its user base) has ,long ago sadly done the exact same thing to its reputation and market position using Posette, Daz Vicky-1,2,3,4. and is now eagerly waiting to see which Ideal BMI, 20 something white girl Bondware will coronate to assume the mantle and save the program from oblivion.

And now that you've made yourself abundantly clear about Poser and Poser users, why not move yourself to somewhere that gives a damn what you think?

I'll call to your attention the idea that no one here except your mutual Poser/Poser User bashers gives a shit what you think.

Alas Poser( and its user base) has ,long ago sadly done the exact same thing to its reputation and market position

No. Poser was selling software capabilities, while DAZ was obsessing over breast size. But nice try. Now move along.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

wolf359 posted at 7:36AM Thu, 22 August 2019 - #4360097

But primarily because the Daz ,single workstation content management system is a NON starter for professional team environments no matter how good the content looks in the promo renders.

Slight OT: DS' CMS uses Postgres as its base DB, which can very easily be made multi-user/server-based, since, lacking only something similar to Oracle's RAC, psql is an enterprise-grade RDB. You can do this right now just by changing a few settings, but DAZ can write a few bits o' code to make it user-proof and UI-friendly if it ever becomes that big of a priority.

...and to be blatantly obvious about it (and include Poser users!), you don't really even need a database - Poser and DS users can both do this right now - they can simply chuck in read-only network file-shares as 'Runtimes', and let their local CMS DBs soak it in, which makes the whole distributed CMS thing kinda moot (besides, you really, really, really want to have users keep their CMS DBs local and the assets remote on NFS/CIFS drives - that way you can centralize the content/disk-usage but customize the UX in that department. Not like you're gonna swallow that many IOPS on assets after the initial file loads. With a bit of work by dev teams, you can even temp-cache those files on local disk with maybe a 7-day purge-after-non-use timer?)

@peng.. First lets be honest . Any discussion about the professional CG/ VFX houses ( Framestore ,MPC Industrial Light & magic etc) having to deal with with Daz content system is moot.

They custom make their assets for each Movie/show as do the triple A Game dev companies like Epic & Blizzard/Activision.

Ask pro ,over on CG society, and they will explain how VFX houses typically use Linux servers and a custom in program file referencing system whereby several operators ,on different workshifts,can work on their aspect of a scene file (Example: only "Optimus prime"in transformers ),

And have the "master scene file" update with those changes only.

Someone else's rigid content Data base structure is quite useless in such environments, hence the repeated failure to lure the pro Autodesk users with Genesis to Maya plugins.

To say nothing of the need to convert/replace IRay materials or the Daz studio only figure embellishments, that can not "leave the holodeck"like their proprietary HD morph system or JCM's

The only people who buy/use those plugins are existing Daz studio content users/shoppers who happen to also have a Maya license.and that does NOT represent market share growth.

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No. Poser was selling software capabilities, while..

Indeed poser did once sell program features until they drank the Daz koolaid and began worshipping at the alter of Daz Victoria and stopped innovating around 12 years ago.

when Daz pulled the plug on figure compatibility the Poser owners& users had to take a hard inward look and what did they find??

A Character animation system that is stuck in the 1990's with no functional IK switcher/solver.

A talk designer system that only works with the default Shape of the native Character Face when he/she is talking. Jessi speaks: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sQ9H7D6LvSMcV0np-Fm4piRr8_cjWA1r/view

A face room that does not work with any of various the third party "saviour" figures who came and went.

A frankly Decent Bullet physics/soft body engine that is ignored becase we few poser animators have long since fled to Iclone ,Autodesk even Daz studio nonlinear aniblok system.

Oh ye!! and a hair room that creates strand based hair that was once very aptly described by Bagginsbill as;.

"Looks like it was cut to length by beating the ends between two rocks".

My website

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wolf359 posted at 10:37AM Thu, 22 August 2019 - #4360119

@peng.. First lets be honest . Any discussion about the professional CG/ VFX houses ( Framestore ,MPC Industrial Light & magic etc) having to deal with with Daz content system is moot.

They custom make their assets for each Movie/show as do the triple A Game dev companies like Epic & Blizzard/Activision.

Given the litigation-happy climate we all live in? Foregone conclusion. DS, Poser, iClone, etc... the top dogs aren't going to bother unless they have little semi-independent divisions that whomp out side-work (e.g. for adverts or stock), which most usually don't/won't do at that level.

Poser/DS doesn't aim for that at the pro level. They do however aim for the smaller houses - places where budgets don't allow for all-custom mesh, and where they're not big enough to dictate timelines on their bids - oh, and unlike the big boys, they actually have to bid on projects/RFQs. Same with the freelancers... I know for fact that with my salary+savings, I could go out and buy a couple of Mac Pros, a decent NAS, and if I had the talent, start bidding on work while living off the savings account. Problem is, aside from my utter lack of artistic talent at that level, is that I don't have the dosh and/or the time to amass a huge stockpile of assets that I can irrefutably defend against IP theft or claims thereof.

So... at the smaller level, small shops tend to go for the Poser/DAZ ecosystem - let Rendo and DAZ take the heat for any litigation over IP (shows license, points at DAZ or Rendo as the source...) Also, you can get that IP protection for cheap this way... a typical non-rigged (but mapped and fully textured) human head that looks like one rando dude, that you own full IP over, runs roughly $5-10k, or will require you to get at least a photographic model release, take tons of pix of the dude's head, do the meshing yourself, the mapping, etc...

...and did I mention that for tiny side-jobs with a crap budget and a tight deadline, these little apps work great. Cae in point: In 2012, I got a chiropractor to use DS, Michael 4, and the old (but accurate) muscle maps tex for a video presentation he was doing at an upcoming conference. Apparently it was a moderate success, and he didn't have to hire a CG shop to do it.

Ask pro ,over on CG society, and they will explain how VFX houses typically use Linux servers and a custom in program file referencing system whereby several operators ,on different workshifts,can work on their aspect of a scene file (Example: only "Optimus prime"in transformers ),

Fully understood. But, again, we're not talking about the top of the heap here - smaller houses do what they have to, no matter who their patrons might be. Perfect example: Intel's digital arts group back in 2007-2008 had all kinds of goodies, top notch devs, and megatons of CG apps, but they didn't have the AAA budget for a big asset library, nor did they have the luxury of time or mesh-mongers to home-grow one. Their focus was on hardware that could handle the CG, not the CG itself. So, you wound up seeing Poser and exported Poser/DAZ content a lot (they were just toying with DS when my group at the time --Digital Home Group-- shifted campuses.)

These SME levels are the people I was aiming at for the solution I proposed... and curiously enough, it works.

The only people who buy/use those plugins are existing Daz studio content users/shoppers who happen to also have a Maya license.and that does NOT represent market share growth.

You mean the SME (small-biz) market?

did I mention that for tiny side-jobs with a crap >budget and a tight

deadline, these little apps work >great.

Of course they do. All of my freelance animation work has been with poser(in the past) and now iclone pro for motion dev retargeted to genesis figures rendered in maxon C4D

Mind you, I am completely liberated from the Daz content hamster wheel since I learned to model my own custom,one off clothing and sculpt my own morphs for my preferred generations of G1-G2.

However small timers like you and I are already existing Daz studio users.

The true growth comes from gaining NEW users and it is my view that Daz's fixation on Maya plugins for genesis is a largely a wasted effort.

Granted that Auotdesk now has a $300 USD per year indie version for their products you may see a few more people who might buy the upcoming DSON based Dex plugin, as Maya is now actually affordable.

However the majority of the Maya user base are either already working in the CG /VFX film industry or are seeking to become employed by that industry.

Thus they tend to be very "dismissive of any pipeline that is not following the standards and practices of that industry.

This is what Daz has Failed to understand with these Genesis to Maya plugins as well as their unmitigated Failure to impress the unity Game dev market with: Morph3D, then Morph ID and now "Tafi3D" :-/

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You can't use 3rd party plugins and tools with the LT version. Only the full version.

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Why the actual flying submarine are you two discussing technical details and market strategies for Daz Studio in a Poser Development article thread?

Seriously. SERIOUSLY, all the rest of us are extremely annoyed at this point. Like 90% of the active threads here in the POSER forum have been derailed by the two of you or a couple of others switching the topic to DS. You ARE aware that Renderosity has forums dedicated to DS - GO THERE, please. Please.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:02PM Thu, 22 August 2019 - #4360174

Why the actual flying submarine are you two discussing technical details and market strategies for Daz Studio in a Poser Development article thread?

Actually, everything I wrote applies equally to both applications - I made a conscious effort to always include Poser in the discussion since yeah, this is a Poser forum, and Poser does have a perfect slot in the SME (Small and Medium Enterprise) segment of the CG market. As to their marketing strategies? We know equally as much... I'm just poking at possibilities.

HTH.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 9:07PM Thu, 22 August 2019 - #4360174

Why the actual flying submarine are you two discussing technical details and market strategies for Daz Studio in a Poser Development article thread?

Seriously. SERIOUSLY, all the rest of us are extremely annoyed at this point. Like 90% of the active threads here in the POSER forum have been derailed by the two of you or a couple of others switching the topic to DS. You ARE aware that Renderosity has forums dedicated to DS - GO THERE, please. Please.

They come here with the sole purpose of annoying Poser users. It's what they live for, as shown by the inordinate amount of time they spend here when 1) they despise Poser users, 2) find Poser contempible even though they haven't used/purchased a copy since Poser 7, and 3) have no one on their preferred site that will put up with their annoying behavior.

Just imagine what would happen if this was posted at the DAZ forums by a Poser user............

Neat assumption, but at least in my case it's a bad assumption on your part, on both counts.

As you were...

Yes, Renderosity does have a DAZ forum and guess what, you find members also bring POSER up in the Daz Forum. Many users have an interest in both Daz Studio and the Poser platform and really there is quite a bit of crossover between the two.There is room for both platforms and discussion of both, without just turning it into a flame war in the attempt to prove which platform is best or showing why you hate the other side so much.

Take this recent thread in the "DAZ" Forum for instance: Is It Greener Over Here?

Honestly I think the "Get out of OUR forum!!!" method is probably putting more people off Poser, then what the Renderosity members are saying about DS. And if you find their commentary distracting the forums also have an ignore function.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar as they say.

....Honestly I think the "Get out of OUR forum!!!" method is probably putting more people off Poser,....... So true, what if a DAZ user want to try Poser and came here to ask question. Which he/she talk about his/her DAZ experience but got "Get out of OUR forum" reply?

If I may put on my old man persona and wave my cane around a bit...

WILL EVERYONE PLEASE JUST CALM DOWN...

Pen is right, what they're discussing does indeed have to do with both platforms. Problem is — for me anyway — is that they're doing it with such high-level jargon (and yes, Pengie, you both are) that your average Poser use (and Studio user for that matter) is going to read it and wonder just what the hades the two of you are talking about, then quite possibly jump to the wrong conclusions, and then we see everyone getting upset and tables are flipped and drinks are thrown and nobody has a good time anymore — except for those us who enjoy the whole throwing-drinks-and-flipping-tables kind of stuff.

From where I'm sitting — which is in a rather lovely little neighbourhood in Montréal, by the way, and no, you may not move here because then the whole place will just get spoiled — Peng's discussion demonstrates one of the real killjoys of this program, and it's something I noticed in the Poser Wishlist thread: people wanting to use things that only a handful of users will get anything out of. Sorry, but the grand majority of us using this — and I mean, an even larger majority than those who want to walk away screaming from the Hair Room — do so because we enjoy working with the platform itself... not how well it integrates with this or that absurdly expensive software used by high end VFX houses well out of the reach, or desire, of 99.999999999% of the combined Studio and Poser market. So why should the developers focus on something that only a tiny fraction of you are ever going to even consider looking at, when there are much larger issues to be addressed that could help everyone using these things?

This is seriously what I do not get about software developers. Apple releases a new MacOS, and everyone goes ga-ga over the new bright and shiny... until we figure out that a lot of our software doesnt work anymore because some pinhead developer found some new coding toy that he just could not resist putting in that will make only a tiny fraction of users jump for joy. Meanwhile, the rest of us — you know, the 99.999999999% of OS users — find that our software no longer works: not because it's died or expired or anything so mundane... but because some pinhead software developer decided to completely change the rules, for no other reason than he could.

And so it becomes this perpetual chicken-and-egg thing: OSs are "upgraded" for pretty marginal reasons and then software packages have to scramble to update with a brand new version, which means an added expense for the users that's a pretty pointless one, all things considered, until another pinhead OS developer finds some new toy and throws that into the mix, and it all starts all over again.

Do you have any idea how absurdly frustrating that is?

And here, we get that similarly tiny percentage saying, oh, we need Poser (or Studio) to work with this high end software package so it'll make us look all cool and professional and stuff... when in reality, both Poser and Studio do a pretty damn good job of looking professional anyway, all while working in environments that, I"m sure, seem downright primitive to some of you. OMG, someone's actually running Mac OS 10.6.8? Does he use a dial landline as well? Does his TV have more than thirteen channels?

Well, here's a clue: the bulk of my professional, high-end work is done on a Mac running... yes... 10.6.8. And it is pretty damn high end, thanks for asking. I'm also running the same professional-grade software on a second Mac running 10.10. Sometimes bright-and-shinier aint any better, and while people are complaining about bug issues in the latest Mac and Windows OSs, those of us with no real reason to "upgrade" are happily living in a relatively bug-free existence.

Yes, there are times when upgrades are a great thing... but nowadays they're more a frustration than anything else, serving no purpose save to give Apple and Microsoft an income stream that benefits their shareholders and not their users... all because some pinhead developer found something that only a tiny fraction of users want to see.

So how about we get both Poser and Studio up to an acceptable level for the user base as it stands right now before saying how cool it would be to have this or that extension or plug-in or whathaveyou that really not many people could even think about considering the option of the possibility of caring about.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have work to do.

On my Mac.

Running 10.6.8.

Have a nice day.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Like 90% of the active threads here in the POSER forum have been >derailed by the two of you.

Make sure you indict the correct person for bringing Daz studio/Genesis into this particular discussion..go back and read the thread if you wish.

Technically "Drafter69" introduced the subject of Daz and the genesis figure with this post: "I read the article and if the software is "subscription" then no thanks...... I will not return to Poser under those conditions. Poser must also be able to handle Daz Gen 3 and Gen 8 models or a new version will be useless to me. I will not give up the Gen 3 and Gen 8 models for Paul and his dorky girlfriend"

Then SeanMartin replied to Drafter69.

Peng replied to SeanMartin.

and at some point I replied to SeanMartin and so on and so on...

Not sure( and do not care) how the one person in this thread,I have on ignore,contributed to Daz subject.

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Razor42 posted at 8:13AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360180

Take this recent thread in the "DAZ" Forum for instance: Is It Greener Over Here?

Bwahahahahaha! The OP ended up choosing...Blender. Not Poser, not DAZ, Blender. ?

randym77 posted at 6:30AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360223

Bwahahahahaha! The OP ended up choosing...Blender. Not Poser, not DAZ, Blender. ?

I know, right? I wish him luck, and hope it works out for him (no, seriously!)

Sean is right - I have a habit of getting into the weeds too often, and focusing on the business side, when in reality, most of the forumites (let alone most of Poser's userbase) just wants something to make pretty pictures. Kinda what it's built for. Small businesses and freelancers will use it (a lot more than they will ever admit) as well. I'll spew it in English: Poser/DAZ figurines pop up, often unaltered/unmorphed, on airport billboards, on real billboards, in courtrooms (I used to make a tidy sum doing that long ago), on home-brew TV shows way up in the nosebleed channels, newspaper coupon inserts (that DAZ smiley/emoticon dude is pretty irritating by now), and even places like the frickin' self-checkout stands at the local grocer.

So yeah, it gets used by a lot of folks, damned near everywhere, by folks on a budget.

I do have one question, though: Is Rendo going to streamline their patches into sales of Poser between now and whenever they release their rebranded version?

One of the reasons I want to buy it (as mentioned in that DS forum thread) is because I want to go back to using a MacBook Pro, and not just Windows-based stuff. Alas, Apple decided to shun nvidia GPUs, and nvidia-dependent iRay, while it can use a CPU, only does so with a massive performance hit... screw that. I prefer to keep my options open, yanno? While my recently retired MBP lasted 5+ years w/o a hitch (my wife uses it now), I just replaced the fans on this Acer Aspire 7, barely a year after I bought it. I'd rather pay $3k or so for something that will last another 5 years, instead of $1200 every 12-18 months for the 'doze ecosystem, which is apparently what I'm staring down now.

Anyrate... :)

Penguinisto posted at 9:53AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360226

I do have one question, though: Is Rendo going to streamline their patches into sales of Poser between now and whenever they release their rebranded version?

No one in these forums know the answer to these questions, and the few who do (beta testers, etc.) are under NDA.

Also, I have no idea what you are even trying to ask............the sentence construction makes no sense at all.

I think you all missed my point. Of COURSE there are gonna be Poser users making comparisons in Daz forums too - the same way that a Blender forum will have people comparing it to Maya or 3ds Max or Cinema4d or whatever have you.

My point is that THIS IS HAPPENING ON NEARLY EVERY SINGLE THREAD HERE.

So much so that we can't keep a discussion without having it turn into a "Daz does this better" or "Poser has to compete with Daz". Alright but maybe I just wanted to learn how to render glass in Poser (this is just a comparison that popped off of my head, before someone starts going in-depth about it), if I ask how to render glass in Poser it's worthless to me to hear about how iRay does this easily or whatever of the sort.

I'm just asking you guys to be REASONABLE with your input about Daz. That's not asking a lot.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

wolf359 posted at 9:56AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360211

Like 90% of the active threads here in the POSER forum have been >derailed by the two of you.

Make sure you indict the correct person for bringing Daz studio/Genesis into this particular discussion..go back and read the thread if you wish.

Technically "Drafter69" introduced the subject of Daz and the genesis figure with this post: "I read the article and if the software is "subscription" then no thanks...... I will not return to Poser under those conditions. Poser must also be able to handle Daz Gen 3 and Gen 8 models or a new version will be useless to me. I will not give up the Gen 3 and Gen 8 models for Paul and his dorky girlfriend"

Then SeanMartin replied to Drafter69.

Peng replied to SeanMartin.

and at some point I replied to SeanMartin and so on and so on...

Not sure( and do not care) how the one person in this thread,I have on ignore,contributed to Daz subject.

"Mom, he started it!"

If I were talking solely about this one thread, this post might have explained things.

(And alas, anyone who wants to go deeper into a comment about another program is free to post "Interesting! Let's take this to the Daz Studio section of the forums and we'll talk more there" and we'll be satisfied.)

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 9:59AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360230

I think you all missed my point. Of COURSE there are gonna be Poser users making comparisons in Daz forums too - the same way that a Blender forum will have people comparing it to Maya or 3ds Max or Cinema4d or whatever have you.

My point is that THIS IS HAPPENING ON NEARLY EVERY SINGLE THREAD HERE.

So much so that we can't keep a discussion without having it turn into a "Daz does this better" or "Poser has to compete with Daz". Alright but maybe I just wanted to learn how to render glass in Poser (this is just a comparison that popped off of my head, before someone starts going in-depth about it), if I ask how to render glass in Poser it's worthless to me to hear about how iRay does this easily or whatever of the sort.

I'm just asking you guys to be REASONABLE with your input about Daz. That's not asking a lot.

Exactly. And every thread hijack is so verbose, with books being written about histories/DAZ/technobabble, forum users just walk away from the thread.

Then, wolf comes in with his DAZ advertisement, links and all, insults Poser users, and finishes off the participation of Poser users.

Penguinisto posted at 8:55AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360226

Sean is right - I have a habit of getting into the weeds too often, and focusing on the business side, when in reality, most of the forumites (let alone most of Poser's userbase) just wants something to make pretty pictures. Kinda what it's built for. Small businesses and freelancers will use it (a lot more than they will ever admit) as well. I'll spew it in English: Poser/DAZ figurines pop up, often unaltered/unmorphed, on airport billboards, on real billboards, in courtrooms (I used to make a tidy sum doing that long ago), on home-brew TV shows way up in the nosebleed channels, newspaper coupon inserts (that DAZ smiley/emoticon dude is pretty irritating by now), and even places like the frickin' self-checkout stands at the local grocer.

I do get the impression that Poser is used more for that kind of stuff than DAZ. I think that's the reason their default figures are more ordinary people than pinup types, and come with ordinary clothing rather than the fantasy wear DAZ leans toward. We Rosity denizens may not be typical Poser users, or may not be as typical as we think.

I have nothing against 20-something white Barbies; I've certainly bought my share of them. But I truly do want more diversity, and I hope this doesn't get lost with Poser now tied to Rosity. Nonwhite characters (thank you for Anuli, Ohki), older characters, etc. I'd like to see middle-aged characters. The few morphs and textures offered for older characters are typically really old; it's hard to create a middle-aged character - say, an attractive man or woman who is 40, not 20 or 60.

randym77 posted at 10:06AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360234

Penguinisto posted at 8:55AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360226

Sean is right - I have a habit of getting into the weeds too often, and focusing on the business side, when in reality, most of the forumites (let alone most of Poser's userbase) just wants something to make pretty pictures. Kinda what it's built for. Small businesses and freelancers will use it (a lot more than they will ever admit) as well. I'll spew it in English: Poser/DAZ figurines pop up, often unaltered/unmorphed, on airport billboards, on real billboards, in courtrooms (I used to make a tidy sum doing that long ago), on home-brew TV shows way up in the nosebleed channels, newspaper coupon inserts (that DAZ smiley/emoticon dude is pretty irritating by now), and even places like the frickin' self-checkout stands at the local grocer.

I do get the impression that Poser is used more for that kind of stuff than DAZ. I think that's the reason their default figures are more ordinary people than pinup types, and come with ordinary clothing rather than the fantasy wear DAZ leans toward. We Rosity denizens may not be typical Poser users, or may not be as typical as we think.

I have nothing against 20-something white Barbies; I've certainly bought my share of them. But I truly do want more diversity, and I hope this doesn't get lost with Poser now tied to Rosity. Nonwhite characters (thank you for Anuli, Ohki), older characters, etc. I'd like to see middle-aged characters. The few morphs and textures offered for older characters are typically really old; it's hard to create a middle-aged character - say, an attractive man or woman who is 40, not 20 or 60.

I assume you've seen 3Dream's work on older women and textures for La Femme as well as his male La Femme work? All really good stuff.

randym77 posted at 10:19AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360234

(thank you for Anuli, Ohki)

My pleasure, really, she's my muse. Coming up next is a chubby asian woman. I don't try much with men or older people yet because I'm not very used to their features - but will get to those eventually.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

randym77 posted at 7:27AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360234

I do get the impression that Poser is used more for that kind of stuff than DAZ. I think that's the reason their default figures are more ordinary people than pinup types, and come with ordinary clothing rather than the fantasy wear DAZ leans toward.

That's just catering, and both apps/ecosystems are guilty as hell about it... it's the nature of the beast. If the market wanted ordinary, it would buy ordinary (there is no lack of ordinary in either market, just that not too awful many people buy it.) Overly-Sexy or Overly-Cute sells. Nothing else comes close.

But - this is some pretty necrotic horseflesh to be pounding on, ja?

We Rosity denizens may not be typical Poser users, or may not be as typical as we think.

Exactly... the forum is but a mere fraction of a percentage of the userbase. The userbase at large, as a guess, is a combo of low-level pros who do Poser on the down-low, or (the majority) everyday people who want to make their little world-escape pictures and short animations. Of course there's quite a few wannabe prosumer types scattered about in there too...

I have nothing against 20-something white Barbies; I've certainly bought my share of them. But I truly do want more diversity, and I hope this doesn't get lost with Poser now tied to Rosity. Nonwhite characters (thank you for Anuli, Ohki), older characters, etc. I'd like to see middle-aged characters. The few morphs and textures offered for older characters are typically really old; it's hard to create a middle-aged character - say, an attractive man or woman who is 40, not 20 or 60.

Hard as hell to make one... and unless it's sexy or cute, well - you know. Mad props to whomever goes that route on principle, though... saves having to mesh it up.

Just to finish my earlier post.........3Dream's male figure and textures.

And 3Dream's Mature with Age spots

But I truly do want more diversity, and I hope this doesn't get lost with Poser now tied to Rosity Do you mean the 4 different ethnicities they released.

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randym77 posted at 9:41AM Sat, 24 August 2019 - #4360223

Razor42 posted at 8:13AM Fri, 23 August 2019 - #4360180

Take this recent thread in the "DAZ" Forum for instance: Is It Greener Over Here?

Bwahahahahaha! The OP ended up choosing...Blender. Not Poser, not DAZ, Blender. ?

Weird flex, but OK.

I'm talking about the tone of thread, no-one is telling the poster to go the Blender forum if you don't choose DS, or go back to the Poser forum if you want to discuss Poser. Members are responding respectfully and with an understanding that the member is going to choose the best tools that will work for them.

Honestly, I understand that sometimes threads seem to be being derailed in a different direction than some would like to see them go and that can be frustrating. But this is an open community and members should be free to participate how they enjoy, within the boundaries of the TOS of course, without being chided or scorned by those that think they have a right to mother a thread or a forum because they know best.

Posers success is now directly tied to Renderositys success, and Renderosity is supported by it's marketplace and a broad community of 3D and digital artists of all kinds. Members should all be made to feel welcome here and in any forum they choose to participate in. Because that is now the direct path for Poser to reach its full potential, as a member of a broader successful community. Anyone who decides that this community is not for them or is being chastised for asking about something like Genesis in Poser, only hurts Posers future prospects. But in the end it's your own decision as to where the future of this forum is going, and in turn the success of the Poser platform in general. But please consider, Interest in Poser is good for Poser even by those that haven't used Poser for a while, a welcoming and accepting Poser forum is good for Poser. And yes DS users within the Renderosity community are now also, good for Poser.

should be free to participate how they enjoy, within >the boundaries of the TOS of course, without being >chided or scorned by >hose that think they have a >right to mother a thread or a forum because they >know best.

@ Razor42 .Quoted for complete agreement,

This "get off of our property non-believer!!", mentality of the Smith micro forums, carries zero weight here ,a this is not the fever swamp, echo chamber that was the smith micro poser forum. ( good riddance!!)

As long as the TOS is not been deemed to have been violated , only an ACTUAL FORUM MODERATOR has the agency to issue commands to other forum members.

Self appointed "den mothers" need not apply and their "directives" will be blythely ignored by, me at least.

My website

YouTube Channel

This all boils down to respect for others. In the example on the DAZ forum, the op asked a genuine question in a respectful way. I'm sure if the questions had been posed in the tone of some non-poser users on this thread, such as "why do all you cheapskates who can't afford poser think DAZ is better?" (and let me make it clear, this is not my opinion of DAZ users), then the responses would have been quite different. Some people make it appear from their language that they have no intention to make any sort of positive contribution and have no respect for other users of the thread. Freedom of speech should never mean freedom from responsibility, and if someone exhibits lack of respect to others, then in my opinion they deserve all the flak they get.

Nails60 posted at 6:53AM Sat, 24 August 2019 - #4360320

This all boils down to respect for others. In the example on the DAZ forum, the op asked a genuine question in a respectful way. I'm sure if the questions had been posed in the tone of some non-poser users on this thread, such as "why do all you cheapskates who can't afford poser think DAZ is better?" (and let me make it clear, this is not my opinion of DAZ users), then the responses would have been quite different. Some people make it appear from their language that they have no intention to make any sort of positive contribution and have no respect for other users of the thread. Freedom of speech should never mean freedom from responsibility, and if someone exhibits lack of respect to others, then in my opinion they deserve all the flak they get.

That's the point. they don't come here to discuss Poser. They come here to discuss DAZ.

They cloud it in "concern" for Poser, but it's nothing more than concern trolling.

concern troll nouninformal•derogatory noun: concern troll; plural noun: concern trolls

a person who disingenuously expresses concern about an issue with the intention of undermining or derailing genuine discussion.

And then bury the thread is so much BS no one reads through the voluminous bullshit just to find something pertinent to the OP.

Alright - the way some of you are intentionally distorting what I said is downright offensive. It feels a lot like spoiled children who can't accept to be chided.

Please point to me where I ever made it sound like the problem is that you're "non-believer" or that you should "get out of our property". Because what I said - and explained in many ways - is that when you go IN DEPTH about DAZ you should do it in a forum about DAZ and not its competitor, and that you shouldn't bring up DAZ in EVERY thread when the discussion doesn't call for it.

Saying it again that maybe one will understand - if someone asks how to do a thing in Poser, they're not interested in learning that DS might do it better. Because they're using Poser and want to know how to do a thing in Poser.

I LOVE Adobe Photoshop, but if I see a post about how to do a thing in Corel Painter, I won't tell them doing that in Photoshop is easier unless they say "ok that's too complicated in Painter, what other program should I use for it?" On the other hand, it's fine that a discussion about the future of Corel Painter might include "I'd like it to do this other thing that Photoshop does" (except when it's already explained that this would tie Corel Painter's development to Adobe and the user insists.)

What's really annoying is the general idea that Poser should be forced to be a slave to DS or chase its shadow. That's all.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 1:35PM Sat, 24 August 2019 - #4360330

Alright - the way some of you are intentionally distorting what I said is downright offensive. It feels a lot like spoiled children who can't accept to be chided.

Please point to me where I ever made it sound like the problem is that you're "non-believer" or that you should "get out of our property". Because what I said - and explained in many ways - is that when you go IN DEPTH about DAZ you should do it in a forum about DAZ and not its competitor, and that you shouldn't bring up DAZ in EVERY thread when the discussion doesn't call for it.

Saying it again that maybe one will understand - if someone asks how to do a thing in Poser, they're not interested in learning that DS might do it better. Because they're using Poser and want to know how to do a thing in Poser.

I LOVE Adobe Photoshop, but if I see a post about how to do a thing in Corel Painter, I won't tell them doing that in Photoshop is easier unless they say "ok that's too complicated in Painter, what other program should I use for it?" On the other hand, it's fine that a discussion about the future of Corel Painter might include "I'd like it to do this other thing that Photoshop does" (except when it's already explained that this would tie Corel Painter's development to Adobe and the user insists.)

What's really annoying is the general idea that Poser should be forced to be a slave to DS or chase its shadow. That's all.

Ok wait...so does this mean I wont get the iray "glow" in Poser or what.....?

just kidding, but this is getting extremely old already....smh, Its Saturday, everyone go out and enjoy whats left of the summer...recharge and relax. meet someone (or 2 or 3 ) and just enjoy whats left of the weekend.

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I'm making ginger-cardamon cookies... but you have to be a FormZ user to have some.

:-)

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

SeanMartin posted at 2:09PM Sat, 24 August 2019 - #4360370

I'm making ginger-cardamon cookies... but you have to be a FormZ user to have some.

Crap. Lemme see if I can find a plug-in for that.

CHK2033 posted at 2:10PM Sat, 24 August 2019 - #4360363

Its Saturday, everyone go out and enjoy whats left of the summer...recharge and relax. meet someone (or 2 or 3 ) and just enjoy whats left of the weekend.

Hood-To-Coast put a crimp in some of it (the course runs right by my house, and it's a near-constant parade of city folk who have never been outside of town running down the highway, hollering and yowling intermittently over the past 24 hours... only happens once a year though, so no biggie.) OTOH, got a ton done today before the rain came along. Still got a lot of harvesting to go out of the garden, though. Anyone wants some kale? We got megatons of the stuff, and wasting any more freezer space on it seems crazy at this point (in all seriousness, the neighbor's goat herd will prolly get it - I'll just yank the plants up whole tomorrow if things clear up.)

Anyrate, I'll prolly fart around w/ some CG until the rain stops...

folk who have never been outside of town running down the highway, hollering and yowling intermittently over the past 24 hours..

Hmm, sounds like the barracks on the weekends

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SeanMartin posted at 4:29PM Sat, 24 August 2019 - #4360370

I'm making ginger-cardamon cookies... but you have to be a FormZ user to have some.

:-) Meh.. Whatever man,I don't like ginger anyway ?

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CHK2033 posted at 5:46PM Sat, 24 August 2019 - #4360375

SeanMartin posted at 4:29PM Sat, 24 August 2019 - #4360370

I'm making ginger-cardamon cookies... but you have to be a FormZ user to have some.

:-)

Meh.. Whatever man,I don't like ginger anyway ?

More for me, then!

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

wolf359 posted at 6:20PM Sat, 24 August 2019 - #4360298

should be free to participate how they enjoy, within >the boundaries of the TOS of course, without being >chided or scorned by >hose that think they have a >right to mother a thread or a forum because they >know best.

@ Razor42 .Quoted for complete agreement,

This "get off of our property non-believer!!", mentality of the Smith micro forums, carries zero weight here ,a this is not the fever swamp, echo chamber that was the smith micro poser forum. ( good riddance!!)

As long as the TOS is not been deemed to have been violated , only an ACTUAL FORUM MODERATOR has the agency to issue commands to other forum members.

Self appointed "den mothers" need not apply and their "directives" will be blythely ignored by, me at least.

I only consider myself a "den mother" on threads that I start. And as I don't willingly violate TOS, I don't think I've ever heard from a moderator on the subject. That said, and with all due respect to the mods, this forum does seem to be a little lax on the mods enforcing peace and order. I never wanted to be a mod here, probably would have been fired by now anyway for being too harsh. All that said, threads don't have to be derailed. If you have questions or comments and you're afraid you might derail a thread, take it to site mail and continue the conversation there.

Also, there are several people here, who, frankly, I rarely ever read their posts as they often seem to be writing a thesis or a book. I pity the poor mod who does read all those to make sure a TOS is not violated.

Penguinisto posted at 8:01AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360245

That's just catering, and both apps/ecosystems are guilty as hell about it... it's the nature of the beast. If the market wanted ordinary, it would buy ordinary (there is no lack of ordinary in either market, just that not too awful many people buy it.) Overly-Sexy or Overly-Cute sells. Nothing else comes close.

The thing is...if you're doing stuff like forensic animations or workplace training illustrations, you really don't need to buy anything. Poser comes with everything you need. Every once in awhile someone wanders in here looking for a safety vest or hard hat for Jessi, but otherwise...why buy anything?

I can understand why Renderosity might want to cater to what we Renderosity types want...but if we really are a "mere fraction of a percentage of the userbase," that could be a mistake. DAZ makes their living selling content, so they have to cater to people who buy content. I'm not sure that's a good strategy for Poser. They've always been more about selling software, not selling content. Most of their customers may never buy content, and maybe never will.

randym77 posted at 9:23AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360476

Penguinisto posted at 8:01AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360245

That's just catering, and both apps/ecosystems are guilty as hell about it... it's the nature of the beast. If the market wanted ordinary, it would buy ordinary (there is no lack of ordinary in either market, just that not too awful many people buy it.) Overly-Sexy or Overly-Cute sells. Nothing else comes close.

The thing is...if you're doing stuff like forensic animations or workplace training illustrations, you really don't need to buy anything. Poser comes with everything you need. Every once in awhile someone wanders in here looking for a safety vest or hard hat for Jessi, but otherwise...why buy anything?

I can understand why Renderosity might want to cater to what we Renderosity types want...but if we really are a "mere fraction of a percentage of the userbase," that could be a mistake. DAZ makes their living selling content, so they have to cater to people who buy content. I'm not sure that's a good strategy for Poser. They've always been more about selling software, not selling content. Most of their customers may never buy content, and maybe never will.

Well, it's been that way in the past, but like DAZ, Renderosity makes it's money selling content. Poser's never really grasped the concept of having to sell content before. It's pretty much left that up to third parties. I expect that to change somewhat in the future. I might also add, that selling content isn't the whole concept of the community. Need I remind everyone of all the content stores that have come and gone over the years?

randym77 posted at 6:56AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360476

The thing is...if you're doing stuff like forensic animations or workplace training illustrations, you really don't need to buy anything. Poser comes with everything you need. Every once in awhile someone wanders in here looking for a safety vest or hard hat for Jessi, but otherwise...why buy anything?

A huge variety of vehicles (that don't all look like Ferraris and Porsches), streets/scenes, industrial equipment and scenery, weapons (that don't belong on Star Trek), etc... there's a surprising amount of stuff that you do need for such videos and illustrations. Even in the example I gave earlier with my chiropractor, he still had to go out and get the muscle-map texture kit... :)

Penguinisto posted at 9:41AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360483

randym77 posted at 6:56AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360476

The thing is...if you're doing stuff like forensic animations or workplace training illustrations, you really don't need to buy anything. Poser comes with everything you need. Every once in awhile someone wanders in here looking for a safety vest or hard hat for Jessi, but otherwise...why buy anything?

A huge variety of vehicles (that don't all look like Ferraris and Porsches), streets/scenes, industrial equipment and scenery, weapons (that don't belong on Star Trek), etc... there's a surprising amount of stuff that you do need for such videos and illustrations. Even in the example I gave earlier with my chiropractor, he still had to go out and get the muscle-map texture kit... :)

I think for a lot of those, they'll model their own, or pay someone to do it. You can't just use a generic house or vehicle if you're doing a crime scene. It has to be an exact match. I remember seeing one where Jessi was found dead at the foot of a set of stairs. The defense claims she tripped and fell. The prosecution claimed she was thrown over the railing of the second floor. So there was a lot measuring of blood stains and scrapes, etc. with the animation showing what they thought happened. You're not going to find the house you need for that scene in the RMP.

And in the training PowerPoints I had to watch for my most recent yearly training, it was mostly head and shoulders only. So cheap they didn't even need desks and conference tables.

I think people are forgetting what content actually comes with Poser. There is plenty to create generic home or office scenes, as to street scenes the buildings are more of an industrial/office block nature but they are there. I think most of us forget to even look past figures as far poser content is concerned.

However, assuming these hypothetical people do occasionally buy content, then all the more reason for Rendo to include integration with the store so they won't just google poser content and go elsewhere. Those of us who regularly buy content know our favourite stores, and where best to look for what we want, it is the occasional/new buyers rendo needs to attract.

And as an aside I don't think it is correct to say Poser has NEVER grasped the concept of having to sell content, this seems much more a recent thing, P8 and later. Just look at the range of content available for the P7 figures (Simon, Sydney et al) and Miki 2 from the Poser owners, now under the Poser_Software banner.

Penguinisto posted at 8:42AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360483

randym77 posted at 6:56AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360476

The thing is...if you're doing stuff like forensic animations or workplace training illustrations, you really don't need to buy anything. Poser comes with everything you need. Every once in awhile someone wanders in here looking for a safety vest or hard hat for Jessi, but otherwise...why buy anything?

A huge variety of vehicles (that don't all look like Ferraris and Porsches), streets/scenes, industrial equipment and scenery, weapons (that don't belong on Star Trek), etc... there's a surprising amount of stuff that you do need for such videos and illustrations. Even in the example I gave earlier with my chiropractor, he still had to go out and get the muscle-map texture kit... :)

What was this thread about again?

Poser tried to sell content, when they were owned by E-Frontier. That was when we got Winter Queen Jessie, and Content Paradise, and the Content Paradise tab in Poser. They just weren't very successful.

Not sure what the problem was, exactly. Maybe they didn't "get" the Western market, being a Japanese company. They had some good ideas. I really liked Miki, though she had her issues. And I liked the idea of black, Asian, and Caucasian figures that could share clothing, etc. (I still see them used in corporate-type animations.) Maybe they just couldn't compete with...um, other, better established stores.

randym77 posted at 12:04PM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360493

Poser tried to sell content, when they were owned by E-Frontier. That was when we got Winter Queen Jessie, and Content Paradise, and the Content Paradise tab in Poser. They just weren't very successful.

Not sure what the problem was, exactly. Maybe they didn't "get" the Western market, being a Japanese company. They had some good ideas. I really liked Miki, though she had her issues. And I liked the idea of black, Asian, and Caucasian figures that could share clothing, etc. (I still see them used in corporate-type animations.) Maybe they just couldn't compete with...um, other, better established stores.

This is my belief, not an analysis. SM was not fully sold on the idea of content sales for Poser. Indeed, it's main focus, in my opinion, was and continues to be software sales. From what I understand, they didn't really want Content Paradise, they just acquired it when they bought Poser. Animation features that they could have developed to go into Poser went instead to software like Moho. Even Blender has gotten into 2D animation with Grease pencil, but it's a feature that SM's had for a while and could have added it to Poser. Or even timeline improvements, editing multiple layers, lip synching, video and motion tracking and so on. I also think Rebelle would have been a better feature added to Poser, but again that's just me.

quietrob posted at 11:02AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360492

What was this thread about again?

Naked chicks in a temple with swords. (I hope?)

randym77 posted at 2:07PM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360493

Poser tried to sell content, when they were owned by E-Frontier. That was when we got Winter Queen Jessie, and Content Paradise, and the Content Paradise tab in Poser. They just weren't very successful.

Not sure what the problem was, exactly. Maybe they didn't "get" the Western market, being a Japanese company. They had some good ideas. I really liked Miki, though she had her issues. And I liked the idea of black, Asian, and Caucasian figures that could share clothing, etc. (I still see them used in corporate-type animations.) Maybe they just couldn't compete with...um, other, better established stores.

There were a couple of reasons why CP was under utilized:

1. There was little to no QA. Product quality was very hit or miss.

2. They went against the standard of allowing unlimited downloads of purchased products unless you paid a fee.

Those 2 things, more than any, were what made CP a less than desirable content store.

Also, I'm not sure what their return policy was - never bothered to try on the few products I purchased there and found lacking.

Nails60 posted at 11:04AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360489

However, assuming these hypothetical people do occasionally buy content, then all the more reason for Rendo to include integration with the store so they won't just google poser content and go elsewhere. Those of us who regularly buy content know our favourite stores, and where best to look for what we want, it is the occasional/new buyers rendo needs to attract.

I can grok that... on the other hand, there are ways to do this, and there are ways to do this.

Having links to the Rendo store launch from the app (in numerous places - as a separate top-level menu item, a URL linked .cr2/.pz2/.cm2/etc in the topmost-level directory hierarchy of each Poser directory - Characters, Faces, Hair, Poses, etc...) would be a fast, easy, and effective way to do this. Keep it there, but somewhat subtle. OTOH, I'm not so sure that their current path - committing a bunch of drudgework and hazard to what is essentially a glorified iFrame that eats UI desktop real estate, is a good idea. Just my O, though.

Could you please inform us about what you know about how they are implementing the store search. I have not seen any details

Bill

People that know everything by definition can not learn anything

Nails60 posted at 11:13AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360489

I think people are forgetting what content actually comes with Poser. There is plenty to create generic home or office scenes, as to street scenes the buildings are more of an industrial/office block nature but they are there. I think most of us forget to even look past figures as far poser content is concerned.

I do agree there was/is a lot there... I was thinking more along the lines of having enough basic/construction-ready assets in stock to kitbash what you need, with a bit of custom stuff (or close-enough) thrown in. Given the existence of hordes of freebie (as in, copyright-legit) mesh sites out there with a surprising level of quality to it, it doesn't cost a lot... but most newbies aren't going to quite get that you can snag random .obj files, import them, map them, and 'poof', good-to-go.

Penguinisto posted at 4:37PM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360502

quietrob posted at 11:02AM Mon, 26 August 2019 - #4360492

What was this thread about again?

Naked chicks in a temple with swords. (I hope?)

Oop, let me get back to topic then.

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~ROFL~ It sure does.

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Best answer of the thread! LOL!! Well done!

randym77 posted at 10:35AM Tue, 27 August 2019 - #4360234

I have nothing against 20-something white Barbies; I've certainly bought my share of them. But I truly do want more diversity, and I hope this doesn't get lost with Poser now tied to Rosity. Nonwhite characters (thank you for Anuli, Ohki), older characters, etc. I'd like to see middle-aged characters. The few morphs and textures offered for older characters are typically really old; it's hard to create a middle-aged character - say, an attractive man or woman who is 40, not 20 or 60.

This is the whole reason I am spending money on DS figures (and bringing them into Poser, as opposed to buying Poser characters) - in the Poser/DS universe over 90% of the figures are Caucasians, and almost all of them are of the early-20's variety (other races get the creepy Caucasianized effect)

When I started working on my ST:TOS series, the goal was to use ONLY Poser native figures. After a year, I had to move to adding Gen figures, not because I wanted them, but because I needed a wide variety of ages and races, and we no longer have that in the Poserverse.

Richard60 posted at 1:54PM Tue, 27 August 2019 - #4359629

Why do you think they spent a lot of time on the content tab? Being as it was already in the code base in the older versions that pointed to Content Paradise basically all one would need do is change the URL of where to go to point you at content to purchase. That is like 5 minutes work tops. The harder part will be with the store to make sure you get Poser items and not something else

That's exactly what I was thinking. The code already exists (and is still probably in all the versions – visibility was just turned off), so it is EASY to turn it back on. And I, for one, wouldn't mind having a filtered view of R'osity that shows ONLY Poser-ready items!

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It used to be easy to find Poser items in the MP. You could choose "Poser" from the software drop down menu, and filter out everything else.

But I don't see a way to do that with the new search. There's still a "use old search" option; I hope that's not going away.

I wonder if the new MP search is related to this Renderosity in Poser thing.

randym77 posted at 2:58PM Tue, 27 August 2019 - #4360563

It used to be easy to find Poser items in the MP.

Front page-> Click Marketplace Many Choices available. Click on New Poser Products. You will be presented with Advertisement for for DS products. Immediately below are Poser only products. Two clicks and we're done.

Second question regarding search.
Front Page Enter your item in the search box. Choices will be presented to you. Disregard and look under the search box. There you will see "Switch to Old Search" Click on link. Use the old search.

I hope this helps.

tonyvilters posted at 6:33AM Thu, 10 October 2019 - #4359422

Well, It was hilarious and pathetic reading anyway.

The good news in the transfer was that all SM Mantis Poser application bug reports where transferred to Renderosity.

Posers weak point has always been content and guess what? => Mantis content reporting bugs, (950+ reports) are still at SM. Dumb oversight or is SM hiding all the previous content mistakes from Renderosity?

With no content bug information transfer, I fear that content quality is going further down the drain.

Been Posering since Poser 1, and testing for 10 years, most of us "old-timers" where hoping for better content with less errors.

With no content bug transfer, how can you expect a "new" beta team to find anything? Start all over again? Backtrack 20 years or so?

Please, where can I see these ex-Mantis bug reports?

Uhg. I'm about to give up.

Why is it so hard to find the (or even "a") place to report Poser bugs?

I long since lost that mantis link. I think the last bug I filed was for v5. Whichever one they first added cloth sims. I've hit another (well heaps, since) but this one just happened. I have a normal map attached to a physical surface node. The preview shows the normal affecting lighting on the texture as it should. When I change the subd level from 0 to anything, the normal map disappears from the preview. It still renders, but you can't see it in the preview. Hardly a critical bug. Still...

To report a bug, or request a feature, go to posersoftware.com and click on Support. Then just fill the form and submit. To be safe might be best to write it out in a text editor first then copy and paste.

Checked and confirmed this on one of my props when changing Preview subD level. I'd call this one of the limitations of Preview rather than a bug though.

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