Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

I know Jack about superfly but try Ghostship2's lights at sharecg (probably here too)... all his stuff seems highly recommended for superfly.

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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

Poser Studio Portrait Lights for Poser 11

Hey Rich, I'm not sure about all the other settings, but you should definitely raise the Pixel Samples. My fairly new laptop is a GTX 1660ti, so the same system as the new RTX cards. I don't always render with the GPU, but when I do quick test renders, I have the Pixel Samples set at around 20, and when I'm doing more finalized renders, I have it set somewhere between 40 and 50 Pixel Samples. That will help clean up the graininess you're seeing. Needless to say, the render will take longer the higher the Pixel Samples, but in the end you should be a lot happier with the results.

As far as the hair goes, I rarely do such closeups, so not sure what to recommend. I can tell you I very often use a freebie light set by Ghostship2, so if no one's already recommended it to you, you should check it out.

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OK . . . Where's my chocolate?

EldritchCellar posted at 11:01PM Wed, 06 May 2020 - #4388372

I know Jack about superfly but try Ghostship2's lights at sharecg (probably here too)... all his stuff seems highly recommended for superfly.

WOW, you beat me to it by 2 minutes.

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OK . . . Where's my chocolate?

That's because you were thoughtful enough to actually provide a link ;)

W10 Pro, HP Envy X360 Laptop, Intel Core i7-10510U, NVIDIA GeForce MX250, Intel UHD, 16 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM, 1 TB PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD

Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

HAHAHA Thank you so much.

Hey Miss B. Hope you all are staying well and safe. HUGS

---Wolff On The Prowl---

For progressive refinement you can set the render to continue indefinitely and cancel when happy. - for example set pixel samples to 9999. Its worth exploring the presets and using progressive refinement + high sample count to see the impact the preset has on quality and time.

ironsoul posted at 10:36PM Wed, 06 May 2020 - #4388380

For progressive refinement you can set the render to continue indefinitely and cancel when happy. - for example set pixel samples to 9999. Its worth exploring the presets and using progressive refinement + high sample count to see the impact the preset has on quality and time.

Do you render that way? Seems to take longer to render the whole image all at once instead of breaking it up into tiles.

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ghostship2 posted at 7:22AM Thu, 07 May 2020 - #4388387

ironsoul posted at 10:36PM Wed, 06 May 2020 - #4388380

For progressive refinement you can set the render to continue indefinitely and cancel when happy. - for example set pixel samples to 9999. Its worth exploring the presets and using progressive refinement + high sample count to see the impact the preset has on quality and time.

Do you render that way? Seems to take longer to render the whole image all at once instead of breaking it up into tiles.

I have a very iterative approach so being able to see the overall look quickly and then cancelling if unhappy is useful. In this case I think its a useful way to getting a feeling how long renders take to converge although the hair may negate the process.

ghostship2 posted at 2:48AM Thu, 07 May 2020 - #4388387

ironsoul posted at 10:36PM Wed, 06 May 2020 - #4388380

For progressive refinement you can set the render to continue indefinitely and cancel when happy. - for example set pixel samples to 9999. Its worth exploring the presets and using progressive refinement + high sample count to see the impact the preset has on quality and time.

Do you render that way? Seems to take longer to render the whole image all at once instead of breaking it up into tiles.

It depends on the scene. For most, tiles are more efficient per rendered pixel but progressive will give you the entire image so you can cancel it earlier in case it meets your needs earlier than your anticipated.

Also, if you aren't already aware, raise your bucket size for GPU rendering... Forgot where I read it, but it was small bucket for CPU, large bucket for GPU. I have mine set to 1024 when doing GPU rendering.

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Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

I agree Ghostships lights are good. As for hair, a lot depends on the material, most hair has way too much specular on top of having highlights burnt in. BagginsBill, Ghostship and myself have all made attempts at more realistic hair materials for superfly and I created addons for EZSkin3 to make applying them easier (all 3 result in higher render times as a trade off for better quality)

bwldrd posted at 7:25AM Thu, 07 May 2020 - #4388393

Also, if you aren't already aware, raise your bucket size for GPU rendering... Forgot where I read it, but it was small bucket for CPU, large bucket for GPU. I have mine set to 1024 when doing GPU rendering.

My bucket size is 256 for Superfly. Anything larger and it starts to slow down.

W10, Ryzen 5 1600x, 16Gb,RTX2060Super+GTX980, PP11, 11.3.740

AmethystPendant posted at 6:54AM Thu, 07 May 2020 - #4388411

I agree Ghostships lights are good. As for hair, a lot depends on the material, most hair has way too much specular on top of having highlights burnt in. BagginsBill, Ghostship and myself have all made attempts at more realistic hair materials for superfly and I created addons for EZSkin3 to make applying them easier (all 3 result in higher render times as a trade off for better quality)

My deal is I like realism, not totally because I come from a comic's background when I was younger and developing comic characters but it's just strange that the skin comes out looking fine but the hair does not. The hair in my screen grab above is one of SAV's hairs. I find that her settings do tend to be a bit over the top (node wise) and are greatly blown out, like the person is standing in a very highly lit place or in the glaring sun. I wanted something that was simple but with fine highlights running along the hair shafts. I've been able to achieve this in DAZ Studio under 3Delight and IRay but so far nothing even close here in Poser.

So if you have links I'm willing to buy or download and try the hair set up shaders to see if I can get her hair products looking more to my liking. Since there are so few hairs that look good and natural on L'Homme right now her collection seems the best for my needs.

Thanks so much everyone for all the advice!

Richard

---Wolff On The Prowl---

This is what I use for Hair. it looks good in all light sources and with any decent hair maps. Don't use hair maps that show highlights otherwise the hair will look painted on and cartoonish. I use hair maps from Outoftouch's more recent hair models.

Hair Translucence.jpg

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Hair will always take longer than the skin tone, I guess that is down to the transparency but I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. I have used BagginsBill's hair shader on a number of different hairs from different vendors and, as you would expect, it works well. That said it is complex and it is certainly not going to help you to speed up a render.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

and here is the same hair with different lighting. More Hair.jpg

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Render times are not a huge deal using the GPU for me. My last grainy render, which did finish, took no longer for me than a render in DAZ Studio so that's not going to freak me out if I have to wait an extra 10 minutes. Just want to know where I can get the scripts Amethyst was mentioning.

Also thanks to bwldrd and Ghostship for the bucket size recommendation.

I THINK I may have one of OutofTouche's products for Poser, the shaved sided hair with length on the other side.

---Wolff On The Prowl---

Yes, that looks very nice indeed!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

Xenya Hair

---Wolff On The Prowl---

just an FIY. SAV's hair models are pretty awesome but they are massively dense meshes that need around 30 trans bounces to render correctly. Also note that they usually load up with shadows turned off (neck actor) so they render quicker but don't look right that way.

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RAMWolff posted at 5:04PM Thu, 07 May 2020 - #4388426

Render times are not a huge deal using the GPU for me. My last grainy render, which did finish, took no longer for me than a render in DAZ Studio so that's not going to freak me out if I have to wait an extra 10 minutes. Just want to know where I can get the scripts Amethyst was mentioning.

Also thanks to bwldrd and Ghostship for the bucket size recommendation.

I THINK I may have one of OutofTouche's products for Poser, the shaved sided hair with length on the other side.

Give me a little time and I'll package all 3 up (they all use EZSkin3 as the host and you can either use the maps that come with the hair or in BB's let it generate the whole thing)

Amanda

THANK YOU Ghostship. I just installed some of your goodies. I'll look over the shadows and up the trans bounces

Thank you so much Amethyst. I'll look forward to your gift.

---Wolff On The Prowl---

RAMWolff posted at 5:50PM Thu, 07 May 2020 - #4388451

THANK YOU Ghostship. I just installed some of your goodies. I'll look over the shadows and up the trans bounces

Thank you so much Amethyst. I'll look forward to your gift.

YHM

OK, got the scripts.

ANOTHER question. I have the EZSkin 3 panel open but L'Homme is not supported. Is there a way to import the needed info to the script get this working?

I also found that I DO have a very expensive script from Dimension3D called D3D Perfect Skin. I tired invoking that and I got callback errors so not sure what's going on with that unless Ralf's script doesn't work with Poser 11? https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/d3d-perfect-skin-sss-pro/114500/

---Wolff On The Prowl---

In EZSkin you can make your own definitions for figures, so which shader goes for which material. You can then save that definition and EZSkin will remember it for later re-use.

Is there a tutorial on how to do this? I'm curious!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

EZSkin 3 does come with an instruction manual and should have come with the zip file. Many of the preset that already exist come from a community effort many years ago that participated in developing the original EZSkin. I was one of the participants.

Ah, silly me. PDF. thunk

---Wolff On The Prowl---

@RAMWolff, regarding the Dimension3D Script, it does work with poser 11 (not sure it you need snarlygribbles avfix or not), but you have to manually setup every figure it doesn't recognize, which is a pain as it doesn't come with a built in editor like EZSkin does.

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Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

Ah, OK. It's a shame that someone hasn't offered a freebie for new figure setup's. I'm not very good with Poser as of yet so I can't tackle something like that!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

I wrote them for all the Hivewire figures, animals included; and released them in a thread similar to this one over on Hivewire's forums years ago along with viseme files for same. Take a look. MissB may have them IIRC. That stuff all went the way of the dodo when we had our apt. building burn a few years back.

Oh dear. I'm so sorry that happened to you and yours.

Well with the Hivewire figures all headed towards their 2.0 versions I'm wondering if your set up will work on them? I can't remember I Chris stated he was going to leave the UV's alone or not.

---Wolff On The Prowl---

parkdalegardener posted at 5:17PM Fri, 08 May 2020 - #4388532

I wrote them for all the Hivewire figures, animals included; and released them in a thread similar to this one over on Hivewire's forums years ago along with viseme files for same. Take a look. MissB may have them IIRC. That stuff all went the way of the dodo when we had our apt. building burn a few years back.

The only ones I could find installed are for Dawn, Dusk and Harry the Horse. I also found them for Paul and Pauline, but not sure where I download those from, and they're on my external hard drive, as I don't use those characters much. Any others for the HW characters I can't seem to find, so not sure I'll be able to find the post PDG made on the HW forum years ago, but if I do Rich, I'll let you know.

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OK . . . Where's my chocolate?

OK Rich, I only found Dawn, Dusk, HarryHorse, Legacy figure definitions, Paul and Pauline. The Legacy figures are the older Poser included characters. Paul and Pauline were introduced with Poser 10. I don't have Paul2 and Pauline2, which are updated versions included with Poser 11.

Check your Sitemail.

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OK . . . Where's my chocolate?

The Material Zones of Paul/Paul2 and Pauline/Pauline2 are the same. If you have the original Paul and Pauline definition files, they can easily be applied to the current versions.

Good to know, though I don't use them often, but still nice that they can be used for the newer character models.

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OK . . . Where's my chocolate?

So I got the EZSkin rendering. I still see allot of darks and lights. Someone mentioned that I could UP the amount of iterations to allow the render finish more cleanly.

So what part of the render settings do I allow to go and go and go until I'm satisfied?

Thanks so much Richard

Render Settings help.png

---Wolff On The Prowl---

Why are the checkboxes empty in EZSkin? Pixel samples need to be higher. Possibly 20 or higher. You can push the bucket size to 128 or higher on GPU. The hair transmapping will increase your render time considerably. BTW, that character's left eye looks a little off.

I can confirm that D3d's SSS script doesn't work in Poser 11 pro, I'm not sure if it's because La Femme is unsupported or not. No biggie if I can just create a figure definition (and there's always EZSkin3) but I just purchased the script and if it doesn't work in Poser 11 perhaps the powers that be should note that on the product page so others don't waste their money like I may have...

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And as an aside to every texture creator that creates textures for the various Poser figures, stop baking in nostril and nose shadowing into your diffuse maps please. Including whoever textured La Femme for Poser's official figure release. Jeesh. It's just as annoying as baked in specular.

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EldritchCellar posted at 10:52AM Sat, 09 May 2020 - #4388614

And as an aside to every texture creator that creates textures for the various Poser figures, stop baking in nostril and nose shadowing into your diffuse maps please. Including whoever textured La Femme for Poser's official figure release. Jeesh. It's just as annoying as baked in specular.

Every new character I buy has the nostril shadows. Not needed so I have to paint them out in Photoshop every time. Sometimes have to paint out speculars on the lips, tip of the nose and eyelids.

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Ditto ghostship2. That's not so difficult, just annoying. 99.9% of the La Femme MRs suffer from this. Maybe all of them. I'd certainly buy more stuff if this weren't the case.

Burnt in hair specular and lip specular are the really tricky ones. Especially hair diffuse textures with the specular burnt in. I've managed to repaint some hairs to where it's not so bad, very hard to do though, and use an anisotropic for the specular, but that's old news going back to BB's experiments with such. Anyway, apologies for the brief hijack.

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@EldritchCellar, no idea why the D3D script isn't working for you, unless it is something in the lite version. I have the Perfect Skin SSS Pro, and it works just fine.

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Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

Thanks so much for the tips. Here is my attempt at a EZSkin definition for L'Homme.

Select code, load into a text file and name the file L'Homme.defs

[OBJLOOKUP] lafemme1 = L'Homme

[L'Homme] skintorso = (u'skin', u'1') skinhead = (u'skin', u'1') lips = (u'skin', u'1') skinlimbs = (u'skin', u'1') innermouth = (u'innermouth', u'2') gums = (u'innermouth', u'2') tongue = (u'innermouth', u'2') fingernails = (u'nails', u'3') toenails = (u'nails', u'3') teeth = (u'teeth', u'4') sclera = (u'sclera', u'5') iris = (u'iris', u'6') pupil = (u'pupil', u'7') eyesurface = (u'eyetrans', u'8') tearline = (u'tear', u'9') innereye = (u'lacrimal', u'10') eyelashes = (u'eyelash', u'11') eyebrows = (u'eyelash', u'11')

Also, it seems that the forum software here doesn't respect the line by line thing so it's all loaded as a sentence. Sorry about that!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

bwldrd posted at 1:25PM Sat, 09 May 2020 - #4388631

@EldritchCellar, no idea why the D3D script isn't working for you, unless it is something in the lite version. I have the Perfect Skin SSS Pro, and it works just fine.

Humph.

Maybe it has something to do with the extreme morphs I have on La femme at the moment. Mucking up the uv map expectations of the script? I think that would be a long shot. Or maybe even the fact that La Femme has UDIM ranged uv tiles, which more than likely would be the reason considering the out of range error notation. I could convert her to stacked UVs via Deecey's script, that might fix it.

I should try running it on V4 and see if I get any errors.

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Just ran the D3d's perfect skin script on V4, which is supported, identical error. The only difference between the lite version and the pro versions are freckle and tan line options in pro. I can create my own freckles and tan lines if I need them that's why I purchased the lite version. I had a feeling it was redundant buying it, EZSkin does exactly the same thing for free. Oh well looks like it's EZSkin instead...

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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

bwldrd posted at 10:55AM Sat, 09 May 2020 - #4388631

@EldritchCellar, no idea why the D3D script isn't working for you, unless it is something in the lite version. I have the Perfect Skin SSS Pro, and it works just fine.

I tried to set up the Script's loader that I have docked permanently in Poser. I got this feedback when I tried to invoke Perfect Skin Pro:

Traceback (most recent call last): File "D:PSP.py", line 3017, in File "D:PSP.py", line 3013, in main File "D:PSP.py", line 22, in init File "D:PSP.py", line 781, in init IndexError: list index out of range

Here is the path I entered in the mainButtons.py: ":Runtime:Python:poserScripts:ScriptsMenu:D3D Perfect:Perfect Skin SSS Pro.pyc", "PerfectSkin Pro")

So something may be off where I have it installed or it's not functioning as it should when the calls are put out for the scripts to start.

---Wolff On The Prowl---

RAMWolff. Does your EZSkin definition work? If so thanks... I get almost identical errors with D3ds script btw.

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I dont think it's anything to do with how we've installed it. I tried running it from scripts menu and via file:run python script. Identical results.

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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

Plus Perfect skin, like EZSkin is not set up for La'Femme nor L'Homme. Looking through the Perfect Skin.psa file there is only mentionings of:

k4, m4, v4, daz3, baby2, girl (not sure what generation), v3_v2, mill_1, mill_2, steph (1st generation?), paul, rex, roxie, alyson, ryan, g2f, g2j (WHO?), g2m, james,
p6kids, p5, p4nw, miki3,
miki2, ty2,
nearme,
sad, skye, staci, dennis, dusk,
dawn,
gloria,
antonia,
antoniaa,
apollo,
mavka,

---Wolff On The Prowl---

EldritchCellar posted at 11:12AM Sat, 09 May 2020 - #4388638

RAMWolff. Does your EZSkin definition work? If so thanks... I get almost identical errors with D3ds script btw.

My script def works for me on my end. It's just for L'Homme. I can put together one for La'Femme too when I get a minute.

---Wolff On The Prowl---

Oh cool. Wouldn't it only be a matter of changing 2 lines to La Femme?

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Also. If I'm not mistaken. Isn't the materials that La Femme and La Homme load with generated by EZSkin to begin with? Thought I read that somewhere.

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Not sure about how they were set up. I'm still getting my head around allot of what Poser does. LOL

---Wolff On The Prowl---

Well at least we discovered and agree that D3ds script is borked lol. Back to Mudbox for me. Nice talking with you again :)

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EldritchCellar posted at 11:52AM Sat, 09 May 2020 - #4388644

Oh cool. Wouldn't it only be a matter of changing 2 lines to La Femme?

Your correct. It was an easy resave with a few words changed in the script and saved out for La'Femme!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

shrug install path shouldn't matter I have mine located @ Runtime/Python/poserScripts/ScriptsMenu/D3D/Perfect SSS and run it from the scripts menu.

I also have a load of other things running, so shouldn't be a compatibility issue. .. Including a screenshot so you can see it's working for me. I have set up a definition for La Femme though also, though it does still work with figures I haven't set up yet. Just pops up the "Unknown Figure" dialog when I click "Init".

Poser D3D.jpg

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Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

Uhmmm... This is just an assumption, but you are running Snarlygribblys AVFix? Yes? I ask because I see you are running Netherworks Scene Toy Pro (which I do also), but I don't remember if it needed the fix to work or not. .. Just remember if you had used it (AVFix) previously by adding it to your poserstartup.ini, every time you install a poser update it overwrites that ini file, which is why I have a backup. :)

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Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

Hi bwldrd. No I'm not using AVFix. I've seen it mentioned numerous times but up to this point all my scripts have worked without it. I'll give that a go when I have time, thanks for the reminder. Now where the hell did I put that?

I'm a little scatter brained at the moment, sending my computer in, on Monday, to get a faulty fan replaced (under warranty) so I'm kind of in that twilight zone of not wanting to install or add any content until I get it back. I did update to 11.3 816 though...

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Mudbox 2022, Adobe PS CC, Poser Pro 11.3, Blender 2.9, Wings3D 2.2.5

How does one set up La'Femme or L'Homme for Perfect Skin SSS? I wanted that or EZSkin to be in the Python Scripts docked dialog upon Poser startup but Perfect Skin SSS won't start and the EZSkin, because it's not within a Runtime:Python path won't start from a button either so I'll have to get used to initiating it from the File:Start Python Script path. BUT I'd like to see what Perfect Skin SSS can do for me. When I start it I just get a dialog that pops up and this is what it tells me:

PerfectSkin SSS Feedback dialog.png

---Wolff On The Prowl---

EldritchCellar posted at 8:37PM Sat, 09 May 2020 - #4388645

Also. If I'm not mistaken. Isn't the materials that La Femme and La Homme load with generated by EZSkin to begin with? Thought I read that somewhere.

EZSkin loads all the Material zones found in the figure. You just need to assign the necessary categories to each zone and save out your definition. When you reload those particular figures back into EZSkin, the definitions will pick up the zones and automatically associates the categories.

RAMWolff posted at 9:00PM Sat, 09 May 2020 - #4388674

How does one set up La'Femme or L'Homme for Perfect Skin SSS? I wanted that or EZSkin to be in the Python Scripts docked dialog upon Poser startup but Perfect Skin SSS won't start and the EZSkin, because it's not within a Runtime:Python path won't start from a button either so I'll have to get used to initiating it from the File:Start Python Script path. BUT I'd like to see what Perfect Skin SSS can do for me. When I start it I just get a dialog that pops up and this is what it tells me:

Try installing AVFix by Snarlygribbly. I haven't installed it yet but it fixes broken python scripts in Poser 11, including Perfect Skin

AVFix

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If you want to run EZskin3 from the scripts menu put the script in

Runtime/Python/poserScripts/ScriptsMenu

It'll then be accessible through the scripts menu

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EZSkin and other scripts were created to make it easy to update older content by adding SSS and Superfly-compatible materials. La Femme and L' Homme already have up-to-date materials built for P11.

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Not approved by Scarfolk Council. For more information please reread. Or visit my local shop.

caisson posted at 11:11PM Sat, 09 May 2020 - #4388683

EZSkin and other scripts were created to make it easy to update older content by adding SSS and Superfly-compatible materials. La Femme and L' Homme already have up-to-date materials built for P11.

Hence the reason I said this about 20 posts ago...

"Also. If I'm not mistaken. Isn't the materials that La Femme and La Homme load with generated by EZSkin to begin with?"

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Indeed ;)

I'm not sure if they were generated by EZSkin but they certainly draw on it. Personally I think that the limiting factor with skin is now more likely to be with the maps rather than the shaders.

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I totally agree Caisson. I often wonder if the texture artists just leave in things like burnt in nose shadowing etc simply because many consumers expect to see such things and would somehow feel ripped off if those obsolete details were missing from the products they buy...

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...would be nice to find a MR with each anatomical detail landmark on a separate layer and a skin detail flood layer isolated as a background. Must be too much work. Perhaps the reason that totally hand painted textures are often the best for construction and render purposes, just my opinion.

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Have to say I'm really enjoying morphing La Femme, in particular the fact that it's a water tight mesh which was a brilliant decision on part of the developers.

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Not sure about watertight. When I import L'Homme into Mudbox I get errors and just told the program to ignore them.

---Wolff On The Prowl---

EldritchCellar posted at 8:39AM Sun, 10 May 2020 - #4388679

If you want to run EZskin3 from the scripts menu put the script in

Runtime/Python/poserScripts/ScriptsMenu

It'll then be accessible through the scripts menu

!

Thank you, that totally worked!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

The EZSkin 3 readme PDF should have told you where to put it and it also tells you how to add figure definitions in detail, and with lots of pictures (I like visuals so it was really useful for me). It is a ton easier to use than PerfectSkin in my opinion and gives you better results for the newer versions of Poser (I used both). And it's free.

RAMWolff posted at 1:40PM Sun, 10 May 2020 - #4388708

Not sure about watertight. When I import L'Homme into Mudbox I get errors and just told the program to ignore them.

It's watertight, no holes. Mudbox shows mesh error warnings for what it deems to be too short edges or verts being too close together. Of no consequence or concern for our purposes. No offense but rather than just " oh well, I'll ignore that" find out why things are the way they are. It'll save you headaches in the long run.

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By the way, is there a script or a tool that can remove "ghost" surface layers that are not a part of what I'm working on? Weirdly enough, one of the Python scripts for skin added in extra nodes for a SAV hair I deleted to L'Homme, as it was a conformer but now when I load up the newly saved out file these ghost nodes remain .... It's not hurting anything but it annoys me that they are there and I want them gone.

Please see the screen grab below.

Thanks so much Richard

Ghost Surface Layers GONE.png

---Wolff On The Prowl---

Oh, I guess it's 5 layers. I see "front" there too.... that was part of the SAV hair material layers that were added to the list. Not sure why the script added these to L'Homme's list, very strange behavior!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

open it in a text editor and search those name and then delete them.

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That worked. I keep forgetting that Poser is one of those, in allot of ways, go about things is a less automated way, esp stuff like this!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

a reason to still use EZSkin3 on LaFemme is this alternate Cycles skin shader https://www.sharecg.com/v/85846/browse/9/Plug-in/Cycle-based-plug-in-for-EZskin3-poser11-only I use this on all my figures.

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By the way, is there an in depth video tutorial showing how to use the Advanced Material Room in Poser? I would really like some info like that so I understand what most, if not all, of the nodes do. I understand the basic ones but when I see some of these ... pure math based nodes are WAY WAY WAY out of my range of knowledge but would like to try to understand some of them a bit more.

---Wolff On The Prowl---

Math nodes require you understand what you're trying to do. A Math:Add in and of itself doesn't have a purpose other than "it produces the sum of the two inputs". When and why to use Add vs. Multiply isn't first order info.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

OK, understood but what would be "first order" in your opinion then Mr. Bill? Coming from a DAZ Studio side I'm trying to understand when I see hook ups in the Material Room that make me scratch my head... See the screen shot below... Like Turbulence, what would that translate to in DAZ Studio? Why when I used EZSkin that I ended up with TWO main Poser Surface's, what does Scatter translate to in DAZ Studio. These are things I need to figure out if I'm going to try to get my own thing going so I can fully understand and bring my Gino over fully from DAZ Studio to Poser with knowledge, not just copy catting a set up without knowing what these all mean! Node Set up InnerMouth.png

---Wolff On The Prowl---

I don't know anything about Daz so cannot make those comparison. I can tell you that Turbulence is one of the many 3D random patterns we can call upon. Long ago (maybe 10 years?) I wrote an "article" about how terrible most vendors do with skin bump maps, and that it was literally better to use a random pattern generator like Turbulence than to use some of the supplied bump maps. I showed how to adjust the Turbulence to produce something resembling small wrinkles in skin and it's been used by lots of people since then who read that article OR who just click EZSkin.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Found it - 13 years ago

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Here's the link Any good tips on getting a good bump map

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

So in my use of "first order" what I meant was - what do you want the skin bump to look like? The idea that there should be more of the big wrinkles in some places and less in others, and that we have two nodes producing different size wrinkles, and combining them with a mask to control where to place them, etc. is the first order issue.

Choosing a Math:Add node to literally add the two effects is implementation detail and once you realize you need to add two nodes, there's no thought behind choosing the add node - it's your only sensible option.

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Thank you SO much!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

Hey Bill, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Procedural bump looks good on a lot of stuff but not on human skin. I always use a bump map that has been made from the texture map. I do invert the eyebrows and moles so they are correct. Bump maps look better because they match up with the texture so all the pores and wrinkles dip into the skin with the bump. 3.

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"Procedural bump looks good on a lot of stuff but not on human skin"

You're not quoting me and not disagreeing with me - I never said it looks good. I said it looks better than a bad bump map.

Better does not imply good. Better implies only less bad.

Plus - that post was 13 years ago. Did you see the figures then?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

"Bump maps look better because they match up with the texture so all the pores and wrinkles dip into the skin with the bump."

Not the way you're doing it.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

When you take color data and desaturate it, hoping to create a bump map that makes sense, you accidentally pick up lighting in that bump map. This lighting produces gradients in shape that are not there.

Here's an example: I grabbed an eye wrinkle photo.

When I place a grayscale version of that on a sphere (left) you can see there are gradients where the light hits the convex curves at different angles of incidence.

The resulting gradient, when used as a height map (right), gives inaccurate curves, producing not convex compression zones, but terraces. There's a sharp rise at the highlight, and a dip on the shadow side.

I see these everywhere and they look like crap.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

BB, do you have a formula for procedural lip creasing, perhaps masked in like a lip specular mask, that you find works well? Desaturated diffuse map lip bumps always, 99% of the time, have baked in specular... I guess it's something we'll always have to touch up in an image editor.

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Given the choice of either the slightly noticeable "edge of the cliff" look of the bump map or the really noticeable "concrete sheetrock" mismatched look of the procedural, I'll go with the bump map.

bagginsbill posted at 6:20PM Mon, 11 May 2020 - #4388818

When you take color data and desaturate it, hoping to create a bump map that makes sense, you accidentally pick up lighting in that bump map. This lighting produces gradients in shape that are not there.

Here's an example: I grabbed an eye wrinkle photo.

When I place a grayscale version of that on a sphere (left) you can see there are gradients where the light hits the convex curves at different angles of incidence.

The resulting gradient, when used as a height map (right), gives inaccurate curves, producing not convex compression zones, but terraces. There's a sharp rise at the highlight, and a dip on the shadow side.

I see these everywhere and they look like crap.

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Lol. This forum sucks.

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differences in opinion happen. No biggie. I'm not mad at BB.

EldritchCellar posted at 7:37PM Mon, 11 May 2020 - #4388867

Lol. This forum sucks.

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S'okay. Too much coffee ;)

I think a combination of both points of view is really how it all washes in the end.

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