We know it's easier, but is it better to use "canned" poses or to pose your own figures? Is it ethical to buy and use poses for a figure?

How reliable are the poses?
Do they give you what you want?
Are they exaggerated? Do they go beyond natural human limitations?
Would your wardrobe comply with the poses?

My take on it, use canned poses as a starting point and modify it until you attain something you feel is unique for your scene. Especially, if you totally suck at posing. Ethical? I think it's perfectly fine to buy and use, that's what the product is for.

Creating lots of poses my self, the answer is a clear yes :D

On a more serious note, I see a lot of benefits in doing so and not really a lot against. Obviously it depends on what you are trying to achieve or make. If you just need to render an image once in awhile, it's probably not worth it.

But for me personally, I like creating comics or stories, which need a lot of frames and pages to tell them. So having to create one pose after another takes a very long time and on top of that you still have to make all the other stuff in the scene as well. So being able to save some time using premade poses save you a lot of time.

At least the way I work, and I mostly use my own poses now, since the whole library is around 600+ unique poses, so have quite a few to choose from. Funny enough though, despite having so many, I actually rarely use them directly as I created them, but will find the pose that matches what fits the best and then Ill adjust it, and even using them like that, is so much faster than having to make them from scratch.

To make a pose for me from start until I save it to the library, can take between 15-45 minutes and even longer if its couple pose. Personally I enjoy making poses, but when im in the mood for making a story, I really don't want to have spending to much time on it and just want to get the story moving along.

So to me its not really any different than buying a piece of clothing, you could spend the time making your own, but in some cases, its just nice not having to worry about it and just get things moving.

In the end for me its about saving time and having fun and the faster you can get to the end result of what you are imagining the better, I think.

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I almost never used poses exactly as they are, and I won't pay a lot for them. But I do like using them as a starting point.

I particularly like hand poses. Posing hands can be a pain.

Also, some people are really good at posing. Their poses have such a natural look, without that fake Poser stiffness so many Poser renders have. Worth buying poses like that, IMO.

starting point only. The pre-posed hands are usually bad and need lots of work.

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Exactly agree with Ghostship2

Not much of a debate.

How bout this for a debate topic?

"Many vendor renders that use Superfly for promos, especially for characters, look like shit. You can't see the textures through the grain. And character WIPs in general. Is there even a bump map? I can't see it. If you want to show your character use Superfly properly... Starting to think it's not practical to ask that with the latest and greatest. I'm not buying based on your crappy Superfly renders, if I want to see pictures of weird looking naked people that are taken poorly with a shitty camera I'll do screencaps of low quality porn on my phone. And they'll be "photorealistic". I would be able to tell if the character was textured poorly, that is for example, the lip texture is well past where it should be so it has clown lips ( I'm looking at you La homme and La femme character creators) but I can't see that through the grain. You're not getting my 15 bucks."

Probably not going to be a popular debate subject :)

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I try to use canned poses if I can find what I need. I do story illustrations and find too many poses aren't suited for that. I don't need a teen girl standing in some sexy pose while getting scolded by her parents. I find something close and tweak it to fit

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My beef with promo renders is Too Much Hair.

Unless it's hair you're selling, I don't want to see a lot of hair. In particular, there are some characters where every single render has thick bangs covering the entire forehead. I want to see the eyebrows before I decide to buy or not. Eyebrows are make or break for me. I like textures that can be used for historical or fantasy figures, or for children. Super thick, bushy brows, or very plucked or dark-lined brows don't work for that. Show me the brows, dang it.

Then there's clothing where the figure has so much hair you can't see what the top of the dress looks like.

I also wish more vendors would show their characters in profile. There's a million front views, often a back view, but no profile.

I love Ali's promos. He always shows his hair from all sides. With an untextured render, so you can see what the model looks like.

❤️ ❤️ ❤️ ❤️ to the vendors show their models untextured.

Fabiana and Ali's promos. Ditto. Love them. And also agree with having clay style occlusion renders.

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hborre posted at 9:49PM Mon, 08 June 2020 - #4391224

How reliable are the poses?
Do they give you what you want?
Are they exaggerated? Do they go beyond natural human limitations?
Would your wardrobe comply with the poses?

My take on it, use canned poses as a starting point and modify it until you attain something you feel is unique for your scene. Especially, if you totally suck at posing. Ethical? I think it's perfectly fine to buy and use, that's what the product is for.

Exactly my thoughts, as I rarely find a set of poses I've purchased exactly what I want, and I too suck at creating poses from scratch.

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ghostship2 posted at 9:53PM Mon, 08 June 2020 - #4391229

starting point only. The pre-posed hands are usually bad and need lots of work.

I couldn't agree more, and am glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.

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Fabiana is fantastic with an airbrush in photoshop but her textures don't translate well in a photo-realistic way.

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I don't think Fabiana even tries for photorealism. Her vision is romantic and idealistic, not photorealistic.

Which I like, TBH. I'm far more likely to choose perfect, flawless textures than realistic ones.

I can agree with that but it's easier to get to romantisized from realistic than the other way around.

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ghostship2 posted at 10:19PM Mon, 08 June 2020 - #4391249

I can agree with that but it's easier to get to romantisized from realistic than the other way around.

I don't understand your meaning here Ghostship2

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In any case none of it's "real". Its representation. Including photographs. In fact its layers of re- presentation. Photorealistic renders are a fakery of something that's already fake.

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I am not sure "ethical" is the correct expression here, if poses are for sale, and you buy them, then, yes it is ethical, if you warez them, then it is not ethical. I think your question needs to be re-framed.

Locked Out

Canned poses are useful as a starting point. I always adjust the poses anyway... It's ethical.

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It's not a question of ethics, it's just efficiency. I've learned that the canned poses never work, so I just pose manually. Most of the 'Universal' poses are weird, to put it bluntly. I never see actual people doing those things! They don't show people sitting and reading, or sitting and typing, or walking normally, or leaning over and working with tools.

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Starting point. That's why I like converted poses. They are never good 'out of the box's so you need to work on them. Starting point must be good starting point though: balanced pose, feet on the ground.

Hands can be a nuisance because of the hand pose dials. If for example a parameter 'grab' is not reset in the loaded pose, it will work on and interfere with the new pose.

ockham posted at 5:02AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391259

It's not a question of ethics, it's just efficiency. I've learned that the canned poses never work, so I just pose manually. Most of the 'Universal' poses are weird, to put it bluntly. I never see actual people doing those things! They don't show people sitting and reading, or sitting and typing, or walking normally, or leaning over and working with tools.

There are some that do. 2nd_World has an "Everyday Poses" series in the RMP for various figures, with people sitting on the couch, working at a computer, handling things on a table, texting on a phone, eating, etc. A lot of his poses are also broken into top and bottom, or even by limb (right leg, left arm) so you mix and match.

randym77 posted at 6:27AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391248

I don't think Fabiana even tries for photorealism. Her vision is romantic and idealistic, not photorealistic.

Which I like, TBH. I'm far more likely to choose perfect, flawless textures than realistic ones.

Yeah, but it's also kind of deceptive. Most people buy a pose or even clothing thinking they can recreate the image they saw. They can't. I actually like partial poses. They literally only give you a starting point.

structure posted at 6:31AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391255

I am not sure "ethical" is the correct expression here, if poses are for sale, and you buy them, then, yes it is ethical, if you warez them, then it is not ethical. I think your question needs to be re-framed.

I don't. Unethical doesn't mean it's illegal or for that matter even wrong. But I do classify it as "somewhat cheating". Take, for example, The Star Spangled Banner". Now to the best of my knowledge Francis Scott Key did actually write the lyrics, but I believe the tune is an an old English ditty. Doesn't make the song or how he wrote it any less inspiring.

I'd have to agree with Structure here. By the same token "is it (artistcally?) ethical" to use pre made content? Would be kind of silly to make a claim that it isn't if you're using Poser...

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EldritchCellar posted at 7:32AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391270

I'd have to agree with Structure here. By the same token "is it (artistcally?) ethical" to use pre made content? Would be kind of silly to make a claim that it isn't if you're using Poser...

Depends... are you claiming that you made it all yourself... from scratch? If you're claiming that using anything pre-made is "unethical" then where do you stop? The program you didn't write from ground up, The computer, you didn't build from parts? What the about the parts you had to go buy to build the computer. You're also saying that anyone who created any painting that didn't make their own brushes and paint were "unethical".

Nice path of logic. I agree with you totally.

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EClark1894 posted at 6:44AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391268

Yeah, but it's also kind of deceptive. Most people buy a pose or even clothing thinking they can recreate the image they saw. They can't.

I think that's usually due to lighting and render settings, so I wouldn't call it deceptive. Some vendors include a light set to help buyers get closer to the promo images, but you still need the right render settings.

Unless you start to build your figure from a contour you draft in an otherwise empty scene in Blender you always use pre-made content. Pre-made is what Poser is all about. Your artistic result is what you made from it. That generally is what being an artist is about: take what is available, stay (if only just) within the limits of what is permitted, and make something new and surprising. Total freedom is plain boring.

AS has been said ... packaged poses are generally a starting point for me. Then I adjust. I do have a couple issues with them though. first is YES they are too extreme. People do NOT stick their chests and bums out the way these models do. These poses are far beyond good posture ... or even military posture. Definitely not natural. I always have to adjust for that. Second is there are some pose sets that don't understand the dynamics of the human body and don't pose from the core out. That is collar>shoulder>arm>hand or hip>buttock(when there is a joint for that)>thigh>leg>foot. AND the second half of that is wonky twists and bends that distort the figure. There are pose vendors who get that ... but there are some who do NOT. It is beyond using limits. As far as promos go .... Most of them look pretty amateurish. Bad lighting and composition. I'm not a master at these things myself, but I can tell when it is way off. This again isn't all, but enough to take notice.

Boni

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I think the main point is if you claim you did everything yourself, and you didn't, it's deceptive and unethical. Now, this is just me, and I don't mind using canned poses as most people have said, as a starting point. Why re-invent the wheel everytime, unless you're improving on it?

Unless you pose your figure in the nude, in a bodysuit, in a bathing suit, or underwear, 99.9% of the time you will need to adjust the pose to accommodate the clothing used in the scene. Another reason why renders never look right because the mesh doesn't gather and fold naturally. Given, dynamic clothing is a better option, however, if you don't make any allowances for space in the pose it would just be a failed simulation.

People do NOT stick their chests and bums out the way these models do

On Instagram they do

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I rarely use a canned pose, or at least, not in the original form. Too many have impossible movements for one thing, and there are still a huge number with knees and elbows bent from side to side, not to mention my particular favourite, the woman standing on tiptoes.

I'll often start with a canned pose but after a bit of faffing around, the finished result is rarely how it started. Exceptions are quick and dirty tests or something that's good enough for the purpose.

Anyhow, I rarely make images these days and the ones that I do make aren't usually with human figures.

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Unless you use the figure 'out of the box', you usually will need to adapt for posture.

I'm glad I don't use instagram!!

Boni

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I use bought poses and then modify them. Always. Especially hands and shoulders.

Clothing always needs adjusting and is actually a good indicator of how well a pose is made within natural parameters. Or how well the clothing is made, for that matter.

I noticed lately that Poser promo pictures are almost always way more.. primitive looking, for lack of better words, than DAZ promos on this same site. I dont want to flame, but I would like to know why. There were products I turned down because of this that otherwise would have been in my wheelhouse.

Nothing unethical about using canned poses. Everything is premade in Poser. It is what you do with the pieces that makes art. Like a quilt.

Rhia474 posted at 4:56PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391317

I noticed lately that Poser promo pictures are almost always way more.. primitive looking, for lack of better words, than DAZ promos on this same site. I dont want to flame, but I would like to know why. There were products I turned down because of this that otherwise would have been in my wheelhouse.

I wonder if the more experienced artists have moved to DS, and we're seeing newer vendors doing Poser stuff.

I've also noticed what someone posted upthread: a lot of vendors don't know how to use Superfly. The promo renders are noticeably grainy, and sometimes the lighting is pretty poor.

I can sympathize. Superfly is very different and has a lot of settings to adjust, and it takes so flippin' long to render compared to Firefly.

randym77 posted at 7:22PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391266

A lot of his poses are also broken into top and bottom, or even by limb (right leg, left arm) so you mix and match.

YES! I really like "partial" poses, because I often see a starting pose where I like it from the waist up but it's, for example, a sitting pose, when I want the character standing, or vice versa.

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randym77 posted at 7:44PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391324

Rhia474 posted at 4:56PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391317

I noticed lately that Poser promo pictures are almost always way more.. primitive looking, for lack of better words, than DAZ promos on this same site. I dont want to flame, but I would like to know why. There were products I turned down because of this that otherwise would have been in my wheelhouse.

I wonder if the more experienced artists have moved to DS, and we're seeing newer vendors doing Poser stuff.

I've also noticed what someone posted upthread: a lot of vendors don't know how to use Superfly. The promo renders are noticeably grainy, and sometimes the lighting is pretty poor.

I can sympathize. Superfly is very different and has a lot of settings to adjust, and it takes so flippin' long to render compared to Firefly.

All of the more experienced artist/vendors HAVE moved to DS. Across the board the products, hair, characters, clothes, whatever, look better. There's some exceptions, mostly in the standalone figure creation realm, Dinoraul, Nursoda... some prop and environment creators... but for your standard pin up characters, clothes, and hair it's glaringly evident. Thankfully some of them are making stuff for La Femme too. Or a token nod.

Superfly isn't done cooking and is virtually undocumented. It's just difficult to see because by and large you all hang out on the forum and have read all the threads that are basically the only documentation.

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I've read the Superfly section of the manual. I purchased D3d's pdf tutorial 'Introduction to Superfly' and read it. Without scouring through the forum posts here and at SM someone trying to use Superfly, armed with the manual and that tutorial, would struggle to get decent results.

I suppose it was the same with Firefly and IDL... but there was BB.

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Yes, there was also a learning curve when Firefly was first released. I remember some people, including some vendors, refusing to use it, sticking with the Poser 4 renderer. Some textures just didn't work with Firefly.

And I remember a group at DAZ getting together to make Firefly MATs for popular characters as a community service of sorts. I volunteered, but I wasn't very good at it. I screwed up the first set I did and had to re-do it.

At work right now, but wanted to say I know you've been at this for a long time randym77... I think I remember posts from you going back to before Poser 7. But yeah, Superfly will iron itself out. I imagine, especially for newer Poser users, the renderers and material room must seem incredibly daunting. Just think how long it takes to get comfortable with firefly shaders and IDL, now there's superfly on top of that. And many of the principles of Firefly and IDL cross over into using Superfly. People that have been around a long time might take it for granted...

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Boni posted at 4:30PM Wed, 10 June 2020 - #4391304

I'm glad I don't use instagram!!

I almost wish I did.

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Here's another debate topic...

Trying to help others on the Poser forum is likely to result in an ulcer. In fact, in general, interacting on the forum is likely to result in an ulcer lol.

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randym77 posted at 2:38PM Wed, 10 June 2020 - #4391324

Rhia474 posted at 4:56PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391317

I noticed lately that Poser promo pictures are almost always way more.. primitive looking, for lack of better words, than DAZ promos on this same site. I dont want to flame, but I would like to know why. There were products I turned down because of this that otherwise would have been in my wheelhouse.

I wonder if the more experienced artists have moved to DS, and we're seeing newer vendors doing Poser stuff.

I've also noticed what someone posted upthread: a lot of vendors don't know how to use Superfly. The promo renders are noticeably grainy, and sometimes the lighting is pretty poor.

I can sympathize. Superfly is very different and has a lot of settings to adjust, and it takes so flippin' long to render compared to Firefly.

You can get rid of a lot of the grain in a render simply by running it through a denoiser, which Poser ought to really consider including with the program. Also, development on Poser's features do tend to lag so it's only so much you can do with a fiver year old renderer.

EClark1894 posted at 12:16AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391273

EldritchCellar posted at 7:32AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391270

I'd have to agree with Structure here. By the same token "is it (artistcally?) ethical" to use pre made content? Would be kind of silly to make a claim that it isn't if you're using Poser...

Depends... are you claiming that you made it all yourself... from scratch? If you're claiming that using anything pre-made is "unethical" then where do you stop? The program you didn't write from ground up, The computer, you didn't build from parts? What the about the parts you had to go buy to build the computer. You're also saying that anyone who created any painting that didn't make their own brushes and paint were "unethical".

following this logic, you should ask if using someone elses pre-made skin / character / clothing / lighting etc is ethical, you can't single out one aspect of poser and ask about it's morality without asking about the whole poser process. ethical means - relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these, so yes, it does actually mean is it right / wrong on a moral level.

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Not Posing your figure inside of this figure posing program called poser is kinda sacrilegious,,,,,,,,,,and Unethical

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structure posted at 9:48PM Wed, 10 June 2020 - #4391441

EClark1894 posted at 12:16AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391273

EldritchCellar posted at 7:32AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391270

I'd have to agree with Structure here. By the same token "is it (artistcally?) ethical" to use pre made content? Would be kind of silly to make a claim that it isn't if you're using Poser...

Depends... are you claiming that you made it all yourself... from scratch? If you're claiming that using anything pre-made is "unethical" then where do you stop? The program you didn't write from ground up, The computer, you didn't build from parts? What the about the parts you had to go buy to build the computer. You're also saying that anyone who created any painting that didn't make their own brushes and paint were "unethical".

following this logic, you should ask if using someone elses pre-made skin / character / clothing / lighting etc is ethical, you can't single out one aspect of poser and ask about it's morality without asking about the whole poser process. ethical means - relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these, so yes, it does actually mean is it right / wrong on a moral level.

So, in your mind it's perfectly okay to claim you did all the art yourself, including the posing, even if you didn't? Yeah, we have a different view of what's ethical, and what's not.

Yes, it seems we do, including what I do with the products someone released with the explicit intent to get paid for it in exchange of others using it. And yes, The artwork you do with the pieces you have is yours. As others pointed out, would you deem collage art or those artists that put together artwork from found objects nonethical as well?

You might as well ask if photography is 'ethical' since you most likely didn't create what you are photographing yourself..

DreaminGirl posted at 10:30AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391497

You might as well ask if photography is 'ethical' since you most likely didn't create what you are photographing yourself.

Uh, not the same thing at all. Photography is the process of capturing light and reproducing it chemically, mechanically or electronically. Short of reproducing the universe everytime you wanted to take a picture, so that everything was original to you, there's no way you could do that. Even then, depending on what, where, and who you photograph or for what purpose, photography could be not only unethical, but illegal.

Also, you CAN fake a photograph by photoshopping, which some people do consider unethical and even illegal, no matter how "artistically" its done.

It's the exact same thing. At the core, Poser is basically about light and camera settings. What is in the frame is just as irrelevant for Poser as it is for photography.

Rhia474 posted at 11:05AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391493

Yes, it seems we do, including what I do with the products someone released with the explicit intent to get paid for it in exchange of others using it. And yes, The artwork you do with the pieces you have is yours. As others pointed out, would you deem collage art or those artists that put together artwork from found objects nonethical as well?

Also not quite the same thing, making art from collages or other materials is telling people what you've done by the very definition of the process. You put "pre-existing" items together to create art.

The photo reference isn't good.

I have never looked at a photo and wondered if the photographer created those mountains themselves.

BUT have seen a lot of things which I know the A̶r̶t̶i̶s̶t̶ Person, did not create at all...yet it's being passed on (and even sold) as such. I think that's what is Unethical.

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CHK2033 posted at 5:56PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391502

The photo reference isn't good.

I have never looked at a photo and wondered if the photographer created those mountains themselves.

BUT have seen a lot of things which I know the A̶r̶t̶i̶s̶t̶ Person, did not create at all...yet it's being passed on (and even sold) as such. I think that's what is Unethical.

By that logic, using Poser at all is unethical, unless you created all the assets yourself.

DreaminGirl posted at 11:08AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391505

CHK2033 posted at 5:56PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391502

The photo reference isn't good.

I have never looked at a photo and wondered if the photographer created those mountains themselves.

BUT have seen a lot of things which I know the A̶r̶t̶i̶s̶t̶ Person, did not create at all...yet it's being passed on (and even sold) as such. I think that's what is Unethical.

By that logic, using Poser at all is unethical, unless you created all the assets yourself.

If you steal someone's base poses or mesh, reshape it reuv it retexture it, re rig it re anything to it, and then present it as if you created it from scratch and even more sell it as something you created without acknowledging where the base came from, then yes it is highly unethical.

But then again I come from a world were we dont have a store to purchase "assets" we have a cube to start you with to create your own assets.

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Irrelevant. The render you made is still your artwork, just like the photograph is still your artwork, even if the house you took a picture of, isn't.

DreaminGirl posted at 11:24AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391512

Irrelevant. The render you made is still your artwork, just like the photograph is still your artwork, even if the house you took a picture of, isn't.

No one said it wasn't art. The question was about ethics , just the ethics of getting there. The topic was pretty direct, Not what is considered art or not but what is considered ethical or not (in this case pre made poses)

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Right. But if using pre-made poses is 'unethical', we might as well close up Renderosity and label ourselves villains. Because pre-made assets is what Poser is all about

DreaminGirl posted at 11:39AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391515

Right. But if using pre-made poses is 'unethical', we might as well close up Renderosity and label ourselves villains.

No I think you are misunderstanding what Im saying, If you use pre.........anything, to profit off of. even give away for free. without letting it be known that so and so poses you are uploading for whatever reasons came from (insert pose creator here) that is unethical.

I spend hours modeling or creating morphs for.that other girl.after that I'll be damn if Im going the spend more time posing her just to see how she looks , so yeah there its good to have pre poses when your just doing a none scene specific render (pinups for example )

as far as you rendering them or using them...who cares? I also have never looked at anyone's renders and asked myself...hmm..I wonder if they created those poses themselves or not

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So, you are saying that if I create a render with a commercially sold pose, then sell this render as a book cover, for example, and don't state where the pose is from, then that is unethical, even tho the vendor explicitly don't require credit?

Only if they state not for "commercial purposes"

Which obviously you would know,

Im only talking about people who modify things (vendors/PA's) by using someone else item and passing it off as if they created it themselves, from scratch (marketplace items)

NOT customers or artist;

Your taking it as if im talking about end users, Im talking about so called...creators, who dont create but mod other peoples property and sell it to you all as if they actually created it themselves, they modified it themselves (reshaped it), re uved it themselves and in some cases retopo and rerigged it themselves (makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

OR took poses from someone else moved a arm or leg and pack it all up and sell them.

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You either moved the original goalposts, or the original posited debate topic was poorly stated and misunderstood by pretty much all of those who responded with a no. I cannot debate a statement that is either changed mid debate or else insufficiently stated to start with, sorry. I do not think any of us wants to call selling someone else's work as ethical, but again, I did not think that was the original statement.

CHK2033 posted at 7:39PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391518

Only if they state not for "commercial purposes"

Which obviously you would know,

Im only talking about people who modify things (vendors/PA's) by using someone else item and passing it off as if they created it themselves, from scratch (marketplace items)

NOT customers or artist;

Your taking it as if im talking about end users, Im talking about so called...creators, who dont create but mod other peoples property and sell it to you all as if they actually created it themselves, they modified it themselves (reshaped it), re uved it themselves and in some cases retopo and rerigged it themselves (makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

OR took poses from someone else moved a arm or leg and pack it all up and sell them.

The question was 'Is it ethical to buy and use poses for a figure?', not selling someone else's pose as your own

Hence my post about moving goalposts or not stating clearly, yes. I am happy to discuss either but clarity of original or supporting statements helps debates, or else there is no point.

Rhia474 posted at 12:46PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391528

Hence my post about moving goalposts or not stating clearly, yes. I am happy to discuss either but clarity of original or supporting statements helps debates, or else there is no point.

Yes, understand, those things I wrote are the only things that would make it unethical.

In other words no its not unethical to use poses you paid for, load poses till your hearts content

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CHK2033 posted at 1:50PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391518

(makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

Modeling is, at best, 25% of the time involved to create a product. The rest of the work, especially rigging and creating compatible body morphs that follow the target character's morphs, is far more labor intensive. Refitting older clothing to a newer model and making it "commercial quality" is a lot more involved than taking something into the fitting room and generating the fit and morphs automatically.

Deecey posted at 12:55PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391531

CHK2033 posted at 1:50PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391518

(makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

Modeling is, at best, 25% of the time involved to create a product. The rest of the work, especially rigging and creating compatible body morphs that follow the target character's morphs, is far more labor intensive. Refitting older clothing to a newer model and making it "commercial quality" is a lot more involved than taking something into the fitting room and generating the fit and morphs automatically.

My exact point, I can model something in a few hours...the rest the painful long part, is all the rest.

that is why it makes me wonder...just model it themselves

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Thank you for clarifying, that helped. Good points.

My exact point, I can model something in a few hours...the rest the painful long part, is all the rest.

that is why it makes me wonder...just model it themselves <

I've refit several Genesis and V4 clothing items to LaFemme for RPublishing. All of them conforming (not dynamic). In that case, I'm getting the directive straight from "the horse's mouth" to do them. They are always listed as RPub products, but I also get credit for the refits. And believe me, it's not a party. I'm working on a few now that have geometry that is tough to rig in spots, so I ended up remodeling them anyway. LOL Same types of garments, but cleaner geometry.

But yeah sometimes you get commissioned to fit stuff from character A to character B. But when I do that I add additional value ... for example, new UV maps, all new PBR textures with SuperFly/FireFly compatible shaders, etc etc etc. If only 25% of the work is retained, and 75% of the work is new to bring it up to current standards, then I think it's reasonable to give the "new" creator credit for the work - PROVIDING they had permission or contract to do it in the first place. But that's just me. 8-)

Ah Ha ! but you dont create poses ? why ? what have you been doing all these years ? unethically loading store purchased premade poses ?

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She probably cheats and uses Mocapping!

lol your laughing, while im sitting here thinking...hmm that sounds like a good idea.. lmao

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Well, you would get very natural poses from that, but it requires a bit of work..

CHK2033 posted at 3:47PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391540

Ah Ha ! but you dont create poses ? why ? what have you been doing all these years ? unethically loading store purchased premade poses ?

I admire people that can make good poses. After all these years, posing is one of my least favorite things to do. They never look natural, so yeah I'm one of those that stars off with canned poses and I tweak them some.

I should use mocap.too (LOLOLOL exposed by DreaminGirl)

Deecey posted at 5:00PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391531

CHK2033 posted at 1:50PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391518

(makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

Modeling is, at best, 25% of the time involved to create a product. The rest of the work, especially rigging and creating compatible body morphs that follow the target character's morphs, is far more labor intensive. Refitting older clothing to a newer model and making it "commercial quality" is a lot more involved than taking something into the fitting room and generating the fit and morphs automatically.

OT, but while you are here Deecey, perhaps you could answer a quick question about La Femme and conformers.

I've been purchasing your conforming outfits and those of Rhiannon for La Femme, and also a lot of dynamics by Karanta. I'd like to model a specific kind of Corset for her, as a conformer. I'm figuring the modeling aspect will be pretty fun. I enjoy modeling and it would (as far as I know) just be a personal project. It would be a Billy T style corset that just covers La femme's upper hips and just below the breasts, lots of eyelets and cords. I've made conformers in the past but I'm wondering, wouldn't something like the corset I have in mind just require transfer of the relevant parts of the donor and copying over, say, your body kit morphs? And creation of adjustment morphs. Are there JCMs in La Femme's abdomen region I'll have to worry about?

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DreaminGirl posted at 5:41PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391541

She probably cheats and uses Mocapping!

Ironically, I don't have a problem with using mocaps. Most of the time, unless they're specifically for the figure you're using, a good deal of restructuring and re-rigging, and re-posing is involved.

EldritchCellar posted at 5:54PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391552

Deecey posted at 5:00PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391531

CHK2033 posted at 1:50PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391518

(makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

Modeling is, at best, 25% of the time involved to create a product. The rest of the work, especially rigging and creating compatible body morphs that follow the target character's morphs, is far more labor intensive. Refitting older clothing to a newer model and making it "commercial quality" is a lot more involved than taking something into the fitting room and generating the fit and morphs automatically.

OT, but while you are here Deecey, perhaps you could answer a quick question about La Femme and conformers.

I've been purchasing your conforming outfits and those of Rhiannon for La Femme, and also a lot of dynamics by Karanta. I'd like to model a specific kind of Corset for her, as a conformer. I'm figuring the modeling aspect will be pretty fun. I enjoy modeling and it would (as far as I know) just be a personal project. It would be a Billy T style corset that just covers La femme's upper hips and just below the breasts, lots of eyelets and cords. I've made conformers in the past but I'm wondering, wouldn't something like the corset I have in mind just require transfer of the relevant parts of the donor and copying over, say, your body kit morphs? And creation of adjustment morphs. Are there JCMs in La Femme's abdomen region I'll have to worry about?

The only parts that have JCMs associated with them are the shoulders and thighs. The shoulder JCMs also affect the collars and chest (and sometimes the neck, depending on the model), and the thigh JCMs also affect the hip and can also extend up to the waist. So the corset you intend on making MAY be affected by the thigh JCMs a tad. Something to keep in mind.

The thing that will be a bugger (talking from experience, because I like to do laced up stuff myself) ... are the details in the lacing and the eyelets in the corset. All those fiddly doo dads can be a challenge to smooth out when you exercise the joint rotations, and you'll probably need to get into smoothing out the bulge maps also. If at all possible, you might find it easier if you model the eyelets into the corset itself, rather than have them floating on the surface. The modeling will be a little more challenging that way, but there will be less risk of having the eyelets get buried in the corset, especially with the bend forward/bend backward rotations on the abdomen and waist.

I hope that helps! 8-)

Ok. Yes, planned on modeling the eyelets integrated into corset rather than separate and lined up/embedded. It'll increase the poly count a bit but it's just for myself or maybe a freebie if it comes together ok.

Thanks for the tips and the models Deecey. Can you make a schoolgirl with thigh high stockings please? Lol. Just kidding. Well actually I'm not.

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EldritchCellar posted at 6:13PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391558

Ok. Yes, planned on modeling the eyelets integrated into corset rather than separate and lined up/embedded. It'll increase the poly count a bit but it's just for myself or maybe a freebie if it comes together ok.

Thanks for the tips and the models Deecey. Can you make a schoolgirl with thigh high stockings please? Lol. Just kidding. Well actually I'm not.

Believe it or not I've thought about it LOL

Can someone tell me about "the mess Smith Micro made" with Poser? I wasn't around for all that. I keep seeing this mentioned in various posts... I was always under the impression they had a good team working on Poser, and the versions seemed solid.

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Which would lead to a second question. Who's the development team now?

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They used it the way you use an orange .

Then when they realized oranges weren't in anymore...it was too little too late.

So they did what any one would do with an orange, continue to squeeze every last drop out of it without investing in the orange..poor little orange..the poor little orange got used and abused..even some of the seeds that came out that orange cut out and left the little dried up orange all alone...sigh.

But then one day someone took the orange and tried to pump new life into the orange..

And here we are now.

To be continued.

And I just really like Oranges

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Sounds like a strange and terrible tale lol. Was expecting something a little less cryptic. Did you know that too much vitamin C gives you diarrhea? Looking forward to the rest of the bedtime story CHK2033

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Yup, I know (cryptic)

I guess the best part is The Orange is now in much better hands , I have 0 things to say about SM without cursing non stop so I won't say anything about those fuckers.

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Nice. Understood. Is there a public statement about the current development team? Obviously Charles Taylor, but not certain about any others. Was curious about their figure development team, like how it used to be a guy named Daryl (I think) and Teyon Alexander. That stuff is interesting to me.

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Or maybe they're doing figure development kind of work- for-hire and there isn't a set staff for that?

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Any road up, I don't consider it unethical unless the creator of the image states they created the poses - or anything else - themselves if they didn't.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

I hope these aren't verboten questions. Like "Luca Brasi Sleeps With The Fishes"

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SamTherapy posted at 5:02PM Fri, 12 June 2020 - #4391672

Any road up, I don't consider it unethical unless the creator of the image states they created the poses - or anything else - themselves if they didn't.

Cue twilight zone music

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EldritchCellar posted at 4:03PM Fri, 12 June 2020 - #4391669

Or maybe they're doing figure development kind of work- for-hire and there isn't a set staff for that?

.................................................................................

Oh, hmm, Can only speak for myself on that so don't really know if their like "staff" of Rendo/RPub or just doing per project ? No idea..

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Anyway. Sorry for yet another derail. Just seems like a more conversational thread. I'd imagine that RPublishing would just hire independent contractors per project basis, considering the large pool of artists, rather than a fixed team...

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@ED - This is what I remember, I'm sure I'll get corrected if I get it wrong. SM had a solid team and did good work with versions 9 thru 11, but in 2016, something like 6 months or so after P11 released (somewhere round about SR4?), it was decided higher up in the corporate structure that costs must be cut, so the entire Poser team were 'let go'. Some 15-20 people I think, and some of them had been on that team for a lot of years. Work was outsourced for a while to a small team in Portugal, and the 3D path feature was added, but development pretty much fell off a cliff until Renderosity bought Poser.

If memory serves, Teyon went to work for a game studio and has posted in these forums a few times, though not recently.

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I recall a mention of Portugal and outsourcing in a post somewhere. And don't call me ED...
croissant

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The OP asked if it was ethical to USE canned poses not resell them. A lot of people who use them can't/ don't have the time / inclination to make poses. Some people just want to express an idea. These people are the Main reason there are canned poses to begin with. The question of ethics boils down to the pose creators terms of use. It is not a subjective question meaning that it is a matter of opinion but an objective one meaning that it is a matter of statement by the vendor

Locked Out

ROTFL - not sure where I got ED from. croissant is wonderfully apposite because I am cheap, flaky and go stale very quickly.

Anyway, this thread needs a new question - I think structure's answer is pretty definitive ;)

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The whole point of selling various assets, including figures, props, textures and poses, is so that people can use them in their own works. Some are even sold explicitly as merchant's resources to be included in new assets for sale. A license may restrict the use of assets in certain contexts such as games as opposed to image or video production, but otherwise, if the license allows the use, then it is legal and ethical. I've seen commons licenses that explicitly require attribution, but I have never encountered a pose set requesting such.

kaleberg posted at 8:43PM Mon, 22 June 2020 - #4392791

The whole point of selling various assets, including figures, props, textures and poses, is so that people can use them in their own works. Some are even sold explicitly as merchant's resources to be included in new assets for sale. A license may restrict the use of assets in certain contexts such as games as opposed to image or video production, but otherwise, if the license allows the use, then it is legal and ethical. I've seen commons licenses that explicitly require attribution, but I have never encountered a pose set requesting such.

Despite what people think I've said, I actually have no problems with people using canned poses. I actually used to make them, although I didn't really sell them. I use poses as starting points, which is how I actually think they should be used. My problem is with people who try to pass off canned poses as their own original work.

ghostship2 posted at 8:41PM Tue, 23 June 2020 - #4391247

Fabiana is fantastic with an airbrush in photoshop but her textures don't translate well in a photo-realistic way.

Hello everyone! Thank you for all your nice words about my work but this particular catch my attention... I would adore if you point me to the textures you think I could improve. I am serious, I practice a lot and it will help me a lot to know!!!

Fabi @FKDesign

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Don't tell me that I am wrong if I say I saw pointed ears this morning, in my mirror... they are there.

Hi Fabi! LOL. Never fear, your textures, renders, and products are more than lovely the way they are. Aw Shucks.

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Thank you EldritchCellar!!! I'll always try to do my best :) Means a lot to me to read this ❤️

Fabi @FKDesign

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Don't tell me that I am wrong if I say I saw pointed ears this morning, in my mirror... they are there.

@fabiana nothing to improve, it's just your style. :) Very "painterly" which is just fine by me. It suits a lot of renders just not the stuff that I try to do. Also never stops me from buying your products.

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