I am looking to find or make a small amphitheater for an up coming project. I've studied Blender for years ... off and on and promote it as I find it easier to work with than some other 3d modeling software. I have however never actually made anything I would consider note worthy.

Something like this (only fewer levels)

But old and rugged like this:

with a covered stone stage. It is suppose to look ancient.

Am I in over my head?

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

I do not think what you want to accomplish should be to hard I see maybe 3 possible ways of doing it one is perhaps

Medieval Tower with Wall Factory I thought of this one first because the Wall Factory add on is already part of Blender and might have to use a bit of imganation and doing it as sections to achieve the look you

This is a full Tutorial on making the Colosseum in blender longer tutorial but nice detailed process

Creating a 3D Arena using Blender 2.81a Shorter video but for getting a concept idea as to how difficult which again I do not think it would be

Hope these help

Lobo3433

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Thanks Lobo, I will look into these!!

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Boni, a simple way to start out might be to just make some elongated steps (there are tutorials on this starting with just a cube), then use the Simple Deform modifier in Bend mode to bend them 180 degrees. Just make sure you have enough segments so that they bend nicely. From there, you can add the stage and platform as separate objects. This way, the whole thing is very easy to unwrap and texture. I don't know how realistic you need it. If you need ultra-realism which hold up in close up rendering, then I'd recommend using actual blocks for the stones like Lobo suggested. However, you can get a lot of mileage for this kind of thing using textures and displacement or normal maps too.

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One reason I suggested the Wall factory and building from there is that you can get some decent randomness to the bricks but could easily turn into a very high poly build but it has a built in feature to create the bend of course like LuxXeon suggested having enough polys to get a good bend when using the deform modifier look forward to seeing what you come up with

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Lobo3433 posted at 7:07PM Thu, 23 July 2020 - #4395138

One reason I suggested the Wall factory and building from there is that you can get some decent randomness to the bricks but could easily turn into a very high poly build but it has a built in feature to create the bend of course like LuxXeon suggested having enough polys to get a good bend when using the deform modifier look forward to seeing what you come up with

Yes, I think the Wall Factory idea is a great way to get very realistic results. I would probably use that method first, then retopologize the result and bake the detail into a low poly proxy mesh.

I think if you start with something low res (relatively) as the stairs in my example, you may be a bit more limited in your options but it could be faster to achieve acceptable results. One thing you might be able to do with the low poly bent stairs is to model a few rocks or bricks as separate objects, then use the particle system or Scatter addon to randomly scatter them on the base mesh. Or, you could just paint a PBR stone texture on UV maps and use displacement or normal maps to fake the details.

Personally, I would use the Wall Factory and retopologize/bake the details from that model. You could even take the Wall Factory result into the Sculpt room and add more cracks and worn look to it if you wish.

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I will look into all of this, and most likely ask for help in the steps along the way. This will be my first real model I will have made in Blender. I think my end to turn it into a Poser prop.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

One bit of advice especially with Poser or Daz when you are ready to export from Blender to either Poser or Daz make sure you have applied scale and rotation to your model prior to exporting this has been one thing I have learned the hard way and spent hours trying to figure out why something is not working right plus it helps with UV mapping in the long run as well just one of those FYI

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I was going to ask about rotation, format and scale to export and best UV mapping.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

I have been experimenting with Poser and Blender this past week working on something I hope will eventually become Poser prop and thus far this is what I have been able to determine if you export lets say LaFemme from Poser using Colloada file format she will import into Blender not as tiny as normally would happen with importing OBJ but imports at just under 2m in height then I start modeling what ever prop I am doing with her as my scale reference. Now when exporting from Blender to Poser using the same Collada format I need to make one change in the export options by default Blenders Global orientation is Y forward Z up this needs to be switched to X forward and Y up See screen Shots bellow I am working on a room prop which is the last screen shot it is 3m height and 5.6 W x 5.6 L and LaFemme is center

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I have my Blender set up to do that sort of exporting by default, BUT, I always have Forward set to -Z (or Z if you prefer). I've always had xTrans as side-to-side, as it is in Poser, not forward and back. Is that because you're exporting as Collada, rather than OBJ?

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Miss B posted at 9:48AM Sun, 26 July 2020 - #4395280

I have my Blender set up to do that sort of exporting by default, BUT, I always have Forward set to -Z (or Z if you prefer). I've always had xTrans as side-to-side, as it is in Poser, not forward and back. Is that because you're exporting as Collada, rather than OBJ?

I have only recently started trying the Collada export and found I needed to make those changes with OBJ I do not have to make any changes to the global orientation at all usually with OBJ exports I need to change export scaling so it imports at a relatively proper size in that regard if I export LaFemme from Poser to uses as a scale reference I export eher at a 400% scale and what ever prop I model and export from Blender at a 0.4 Scale and that usually imports into Poser a relatively correct size that seems to work I have given up t the moment of trying import and exports from DAZ Studio that just never seems to work at all no matter how I try and do it

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Wow, this is going to save me a LOT of trial and error!!

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Boni posted at 4:15PM Mon, 27 July 2020 - #4395374

Wow, this is going to save me a LOT of trial and error!!

Trail and error is how I learn sometimes the problem solving to me can be a little more fun that actually getting to the end of a project lol

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I'm interested in how your modeling turned out. What approach did you decide to use and how did the UV unwrapping go?

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Haven't started yet. I am still working on a current scene. But it is next on the list and I am excited to start. I will share my progress ... sprinkled with plenty of novice questions!!

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Look forward to it Boni

Lobo3433

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I want to have my permanent set up in Blender to match that of Poser of up/down Y, side-side X, and forward back Z. How do I do this. I've been looking it up inside of preferences and can't seem to find it. Thanks guys.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Ok ... using the stairs from Archimesh ... modifier, simple and bend ... well that didn't work no matter what axis I choose. Taking a few shortcuts, but I figure I can detail it later.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Hi Boni, you won't get a bend unless there are subdivisions along its length.

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Well duh, that makes sense! Tomorrow back to start ...

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

As to your other question Boni about having your UI not sure it can be done at least I have never tried and except for Collada in Poser OBJ and FBX imports from Blender to Poser at least for me have imported with the right orientations 99.9% of the time so I can only stress making sure scale & rotation are applied before any exporting and importing

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Boni, I don't know if you are interested in using this technique (VIDEO BELOW), but I find this just as easy as using other pre-fab methods like the Archimesh steps, and it will give you perhaps even more control over the look of the model and the UV unwrapping. Anyway, if the Archimesh style is what you want, then as had been mentioned already, the bending needs edge loop segments to work. CTRL+R. Good luck.

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That looks nice and easy Lux. I'll definitely have to try that out.

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Lux

Lobo3433

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Lux!! Thank you!! I will try this. The Archimesh wasn't exactly what I wanted anyway!!

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

@Miss B, @Lobo3433 Thank you both. I'm interested in how Boni decides to approach this, because the downfall with using some of the addons for this type of thing is that typically the addons, while somewhat procedural, lack editing control once you break the initial link to the mesh creation. In other words, if you use the Archimesh Steps or Stairs addon, the resulting mesh has several disjointed subobjects that aren't welded, so adding edge loops for the bending process requires a lot of editing. Also, the results of that, once you prepare it for the bend, are nearly identical to the example in the video I posted anyway.

I do like the Wall Factory solution, especially if you need that detailed, block look. However, that too results in multiple sub-objects which can be a pain to customize. I would probably create a retopology mesh and use the Wall Factory as a means to an end to get displacement or normal map on a single, lower poly geometry. I think PBR texture maps and displacement/normal maps can go a long way for a model like this one. Depends on how this model is intended to be used.

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Was looking up how to create a ring loop ... said alt + ctl + LMB ... lost all my toolbars and menu ... have no idea how to bring them back. I'm so embarrassed.

PS couldn't find instructions on how to do it either.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

I have been following your tutorial step by step Lux.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Cntl + Alt + space ... whew. Ok now to the ring loop. sheesh.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

I could not have done this without you!!

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Now I want to give it a rough stone texture with lots of cracks and chips ... then make a round platform with a band-shell at the base and even place the steps in a hill with grass and ground texture. Is this asking too much?

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Which layout for the platform do you think will go better? I am leaning towards the second one.

first:

Second:

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

I am also thinking of putting a row of steps along the middle of each side as I have seen in some photos.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Quick question for the bandshell. Should I solidify a sphere ... then duplicate it reduce it and use it as a boolean to cut out the center of the shell then remove all but a quarter wedge? I use to do this sort of stuff in Bryce ... 20 some years ago.

P.S. Hea, could I add 2 boolean cubes to do the removal of the 3/4 part of the sphere?

P.S.S. I guess what I am asking is ... Is there an easier way, or is this a good way to make a bandshell?

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Ok, I dove in ... here is what I have so far ...

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Looking good so far, Boni. What version of Blender are you using here? I forgot to mention I was using 2.83 in my example, so the hotkeys may be different than the version you are using. CTRL+R was the hotkey for creating loop cuts, but I see you've already got that done. I would recommend staying away from booleans if you can unless there's truly no way around it. I think using a sphere as you have done in your example above is probably the most acceptable way to go. If the pole at the top becomes a problem for texturing, then there is a way to do this using a cube but I don't think it should be an issue. Let me know if you have any problems with it. I could show you a relatively simple technique to transform the standard cube into a band shell as well.

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I'm in 2.80.

I'm accustomed to using booleans ... so it wasn't a major issue for me. I am enjoying this. I added the small steps ... uneven on purpose for a more rugged look in the end. Here are the steps.

I will avoid the booleans if you feel that is better. I bow to your expertise.

I will keep your advice about the bandshell in mind in case I run into trouble. You have been so very helpful!!

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Booleans are fine in some situations and actually work brilliantly in CAD packages or other types of "solid" modeling software that use a Delaunay triangulation method for the mesh, Voxel modeling, or Nurbs based modeling. In those types of conditions, booleans work very well and could be retopologized into quad meshes. However, when working in a polygon software package like Blender, where most of the modeling features and techniques rely on quad based surfaces for the mesh topology, boolean operations can all but ruin the quality of the surface, and often require lots of clean-up, because they tend to leave behind isolated vertices, Ngons, and other issues which could give you trouble down the pipeline. Especially if you plan on transferring the object into other applications. If you are familiar with boolean "clean-up" then it's not really a big deal, but most of the time there's a much better way to create the same shapes.

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In theory I do sort of understand the different modeling formats. I have used nerbs, and others but have found polygons easier to work with. Is there a way to retopulate so that this is one solid figure with no unwanted polygons?

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Currently, it seems you have 3 major objects as part of the model. You have the steps (seats), the ground platform, and the pavilion or shell. They are all very low poly so far (you could subdivide them to help add more details, etc.). I would recommend keeping those 3 parts as distinct, separate objects. You can join them as one object, but they would still remain distinct sub-objects or elements of the model or mesh. Also the stones or bricks you've added to the seating could be joined all together as one model, but still separate meshes. I wouldn't recommend trying to "weld" all those elements together into one solid mesh unless you were planning to 3d print the object. There are many reasons for this. If you are concerned with excessive polygons which will never be seen, those are issues you can handle later on if need be. You can delete polygons which are intersecting other polygons or which are beneath the model out of camera view, etc. Since you mentioned this is your first real production model, I wouldn't worry too much about polygon count or hidden polygons. Those are more advanced things that either require pre-planning and a bit more experience to avoid.

For now, I think you're on the right track here, and as long as you aren't expecting too much out of your first attempt, I think you'll have a very easy time with this one. Unwrapping and texturing might be the hardest parts. For now, I would suggest finishing all the modeling first. Then you can join all the parts into one single mesh (no retopology required).

Joining the models will make them all one object, but they will remain separate elements in edit mode. To do this, you can select all the objects, then CTRL+J on the keyboard will join them into one model. Then when you go into edit mode, you can work on each part as a separate piece. This can come later on, depending on how many objects will be in this model. You may wish to unwrap some of the elements before you join them, but it isn't necessary.

I hope that wasn't too confusing. I may be rambling a bit. I could show you what I mean in a sample video if you need it. Just let me know.

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I believe I understand, but a video would be appreciated, that is what helps me the most.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

I'm liking what I'm seeing Boni, so please do continue to show us screenshots as you progress.

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Boni posted at 12:10AM Thu, 30 July 2020 - #4395523

I believe I understand, but a video would be appreciated, that is what helps me the most.

I'll put together a video showing how to join the objects together into one mesh tomorrow (it's late evening here now). In the meantime, keep us posted. Good luck.

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Thank you so much Miss B, Lux and Lobo too. This is so encouraging!!

Boni

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Wow missed allot first Boni it is look great as to using Boolean since you did earlier mention that you were going to take this into Poser I have run into numerous headaches where they are concerned in Poser and having to go back and retopo or look at achieving the look I want using basic box modeling which in my current project has made me think harder to achieve the look I want in the long run. I really looking forward to seeing your progress as you are going thru this and I do agree with something LuxXeon said earlier the use of displacement or normal maps will very helpful as you take this project further

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I will use normal maps, but feel I cannot depend on displacement maps due to Poser's Superfly limitation. Sadly I will have to do some real texture "modeling" with the brushes I believe to get the roughness, chips and cracks I need to make this look ancient. It is suppose to be a structure discovered on a deserted Greek island that dates back to mythological times.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Here is a question. Can or should I take this model into ZBrush for the surface texturing or does Blender have enough varied modeling brushes to do that?

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Boni, I don't know if you still need this or not, but I put together a quick video showing you how to join all the objects into a single mesh. This does not weld together the parts, but it will make everything into just one object. Each part is still individually editable, and this process can be reversed.

If you have access to Zbrush and are familiar with using it, then Zbrush is what I personally prefer to sculpt details with. However, Blender sculpting does have the ability to detail objects like this one just fine. So that's up to you. Either way will work, but doing it in Blender will save you a round trip.

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A little background ... I started using 3d programs 1996 when Jo's son-in-law gave me his old Mac with Bryce3d on it ... from there it was Poser and Bryce for quite a while and I tested others when I got free versions from vendors when I worked as a software sales associate at Fry's. I have used: Animation:Master, Wings, Milkshape, Hexagon, Amorphium and the most success of these Lightwave (which I no longer have access to since I had a student copy when I took a course in it), and ZBrush which I really like, but have issues with the interface. I never stuck it out for more than a few weeks with all but LIghtwave, ZBrush and Blender. Blender since the 2.8 interface has been fascinating to me. I look forward to using it more. (as well as ZBrush).

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Boni I found this a bit ago it might help with sculpting the type of look you may want with in Blender plus has a link to a set of free Sculpting Brushes

Sculpting Stone for Beginners in Blender 2.8 [ + FREE BRUSH SET]

Lobo3433

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Thanks a lot Lobo!!

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Lobo3433 posted at 4:19PM Thu, 30 July 2020 - #4395587

Boni I found this a bit ago it might help with sculpting the type of look you may want with in Blender plus has a link to a set of free Sculpting Brushes

Sculpting Stone for Beginners in Blender 2.8 [ + FREE BRUSH SET]

Yeah, that's probably a good way to do it. My only suggestion is to make a duplicate copy of whatever object you are going to sculpt on because the Dynotopo will destroy the UV's and quad surface of the mesh. Then you can use the original geometry as a low poly topology to bake the details of the sculpted version into a normal map.

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The tutorial was great Lux and I am going over the stone tutorial, Lobo, but lagging on catching on for my models. I'll have questions later. Thank you so much!!

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Look forward to helping where I can I am also working on my project revamping most of it after finding something I had issue with but all the creative juices flowing around is been a good thing

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Hi Boni, I was going to post this earlier in the thread before you got the sudden rush of replies and moved past where this was more relevant. With the modeling of your ampitheater using the array modifier with the simple deform modifier can give the flexibility to check out some different variations on your model before committing to your final design.

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Keppel!! I love these!! what great ideas!! I will most certainly consider them!!

Hea, guys I really want to clean up the mesh ... especially on the dome. There are squeezed triangles and huge quads around the edges. How do I retopolate and fix that?

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Boni posted at 3:53PM Sat, 01 August 2020 - #4395721

Keppel!! I love these!! what great ideas!! I will most certainly consider them!!

Hea, guys I really want to clean up the mesh ... especially on the dome. There are squeezed triangles and huge quads around the edges. How do I retopolate and fix that?

Boni, did you use Booleans for the dome? Can you show an example of what your topology looks like? If you used a simple UV sphere, then the only triangles should be up at the poles (north and south ends of the sphere), and those are really easy to convert to quads. There are several different techniques to do that, depending on what you plan to do with the object (sculpting or subdividing). I'm curious what you mean about triangles around the edges though.

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Hi Boni, one way to do the dome is to use a cube instead of a sphere, sounds odd but you end up with much better topology. Add a subdivision modifier to your cube with two levels of subdivision and then apply the modifier. Delete the faces so that you are left with the quarter sphere (Dome) Add a solidify modifier for thickness and apply. You are now left with a dome made of quads. Select the bottom edges and scale along the z axis to 0 to flatten the bottom of the dome. Add some controlling edge loops to tighten the edges and add another sub division modifier to smooth to the level you want.

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I won't be able to do this until Monday but, but I think Keppel's solution might be better than struggling with this Boolean dome. Again I love what I am learning here.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Oh, I didn't know you used booleans for the dome after all. I thought it was just a UV sphere.

Anyway, looks like you're in good hands now though, so I'll leave you to it. I'll check back later in the week to see how it turned out. Good luck! Can't wait to see your finished product.

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Well, I have the bottom edges picked ... but I don't have the z scale understood nor the controlling edge loops. I could use some help.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

here is what I have:

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Hi Boni, from looking at your picture you haven't applied the solidify modifier yet. Once you do that switch to vertex mode and select all the bottom vertices. Press "S" then "Z" then 0. "S" for scale, "Z" to constrain the scale to the z axis, 0 scales all selected vertices to the gizmo location.

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A controlling edge loop is used to reduce the influence of the subdivision modifier. Carrying on from my last post add a subdivision modifier and look at the effect it has on the shape of your dome. Go back into edit mode, edges, and select the edges highlighted and subdivide. Deselect everything and select the edge loop highlighted. Double tap the "G" key to slide the edge loop rightwards towards the edge of the dome. Now you can see the effect the edge loop you just added has on the shape of your dome. You will need to add another edge loop to the bottom edges and slide the new edge loop towards the base of the dome to tighten that area up as well.

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Nice work, Keppel! I don't know if it will help much since Keppel explained it well enough already, but here's a quick video of how I would do it. It's basically the same way Keppel suggested. I begin the video with the surface, just after subdividing the cube and removing the necessary polygons. Hope this is also helpful.

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Um ... could you explain the subdivide and deleting polygons? I don't know which subdivide method I need to use ... and what polygons to delete.

Boni

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No prob. I'll give you another quick video showing that process.

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Boni, here's a video showing how to start out from just a standard cube. This video ends with the exact model we started with in the previous video.

Let me know if you have questions. Hope it wasn't confusing.

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You are so helpful, thank you!

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Your instructions were wonderful ... however, I messed up somewhere. If you could direct me in how to fix this ...?

This was just at subdivision surface ... It revert back to when I was having trouble before. I have to log off in a couple minutes. So I'll get back to this tomorrow.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Looks like you got the shape, but it seems you may have applied a subdivision surface where you didn't need to. Did you apply a solidify modifier yet? I can't tell from this image. If you have the ability, can you somehow send me your .blend file? If not, don't worry. Here's what we can do. I will create the dome for you and send you my .blend file. You can study it and try to recreate it again, or feel free just to use my dome for your project.

I know it's difficult to follow tutorials sometimes, especially when you have to stop and start again over the course of some days. So let me just send you my .blend file of the dome. I will even UV unwrap it for you if you want. This way you can study the object and maybe get a better grasp on it, but you can also use it in your project. I don't care if it's a commercial project. Consider it a freebie.

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I'm not sure which stage of subdivision you got stuck at, but I'd love to have a look at your blend file if possible to get a better idea where you are at. However, if that's not possible, allow me to send you my blend file of the dome as I mentioned. You can feel free to use it in your project, and it might help you get a better idea where you went wrong on yours by studying the object.

Are you stuck at the end of the second video (which was really the first step in the process)? Or are you stuck on some part of the first video (the second phase of the process)? If you're stuck on the second video, then I think what may be happening is that you've added another subdivision modifier after you deleted the faces of the cube to get the dome shape? After you subdivide the cube to make it round, you need to apply that subdivision surface modifier, then go into edit mode and start deleting the faces as shown in the second video. Once that is done and you exit edit mode, do not apply another subdivision surface modifier. Just add a solidify modifier and adjust the thickness of that. Then apply that modifier as well.

Let me know if that is where you went wrong. If that's not helping, then I'd like to have a look at your .blend file. Let me know. If that's not possible, I'll send you my file.

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I believe I made my mistakes in the subdivide and polygon deleted ... I will be happy to share my file and accept your gracious gift. Even at that for study I might start the done from scratch tomorrow as a practice learning exercise.

Boni

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Sounds great, Boni. Give me half hour and I'll have the file uploaded somewhere for you to download. I don't think we can attach .blend files to the thread. The only issue might be will you be able to open my file? I'm working with Blender 2.83. However, is do still have Blender 2.81 installed. So maybe I'll save it with 2.81. Either way, you should be able to append the object into your current scene. If you don't know how to append an object from one blend file to another, I'll show you how that's done as well. Let me know. I'll upload it shortly.

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Boni, I sent you a private message with a link to download the .blend file. Let me know you got that, and if you send me your file I'll be happy to look it over.

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Hi, Boni. I got your .blend file and looked it over. Your dome looks fine. However, I noticed something strange. I noticed you have an object in the collection named cube, but you also have a cube.001. Cube.001 is your dome. The other object named simply, "cube" is just a line with no geometry? I noticed that line is the one you have a subdivision surface modifier attached to, but the actual dome does not have a subdivision surface.

The actual dome object (cube.001) looks just fine. It could have been perhaps a little thicker when you applied the solidify modifier, but if that's the thickness you wanted then that's ok too. I think it looks good. The only thing you need to do now is to follow the first video from about the 1:13 point on. Just add some creased edges and CTRL+R to insert edge loop cuts. Then when you add the subdivision surface modifier, it should work as expected.

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I made a new tutorial video for you, using your own .blend as the source. It will show you exactly what to do to your dome to get the final process. I will upload it in a few minutes.

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Hi again, Boni. Ok, here's a quick video showing exactly what to do using the dome you sent me. You almost had it finished. All you needed to do was the last few steps before adding subdivision. Hopefully, you can follow along. I didn't use Screencast keys to record my keystrokes or mouse, but I did incorporate annotations.

The only thing you needed to do was add edge creasing and control loops with the Loop Cut tool. Once that's done, your dome is ready for subdivision surface modifier.

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Looking over all this on Monday. ?

Boni

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Well that makes much more sense. thank you!!

Boni

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I have decided to continue on with the project using Lux's dome ... now ... what should be my next step?

Boni

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Boni posted at 5:58PM Mon, 10 August 2020 - #4396548

I have decided to continue on with the project using Lux's dome ... now ... what should be my next step?

Do you have all the objects you need for the project or do you need to model more shapes? If you're done with the basic shapes, the next thing might be to create support loops or just use creased edges on the objects so they hold their shape with subdivision, then create seams so you can unwrap the UVs for texturing.

If you're going to sculpt details on these models, then I might recommend making duplicates of the models so that you have a lower poly version and then your sculpted version. You can use the lower poly versions as a way to bake normal maps or displacement maps on to the models if you want.

Otherwise, you can just go to a good free PBR texture resource like CGTextures.com and look for some good stone or rock materials. You will need color, specular, roughness, normal map, and maybe a height map to get a good result.

I'll be honest, if this is your first production model, these next steps might be the most difficult depending on how realistic you want the results.

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I don't want to make it too difficult but would I need to add some ground built up around the steps since I wouldn't be able to build it in Poser. Is this unrealistic of me?

Boni

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Boni posted at 12:03AM Tue, 11 August 2020 - #4396574

I don't want to make it too difficult but would I need to add some ground built up around the steps since I wouldn't be able to build it in Poser. Is this unrealistic of me?

Hi, Boni. Well, the best thing to do is take it one step at a time. If this project is intended for a product, then don't forget that you can also release addons for it later down the road if you wanted. You can release a basic set first, then create more detail and addons down the road that people can purchase if they want to expand this set with far more details. This would give you the ability to have a "modular" product more or less. It will also allow customers to load the base product easier, keep polygon count manageable for those users with concerns over such things, and give you the satisfaction of having completed a product. On the other hand, if you're in no hurry, you can do all sorts of things to expand on this. It's just a matter of how much time you want to spend before you call it a finished product.

All things considered, at this point, once you add the support loops, unwrap the current objects, and then add subdivsion to them you should have something that looks similar to this:

This is basically a quick mockup of what you've indicated you were going for so far. I haven't seen your steps or ground completed yet, so they may be different. Once you have something like this, you can go a long way by adding materials, using proper PBR textures on each model. PBR textures can make these models look very unique and different than they look here, and can provide a lot of detail without doing much more. Of course, you can go all out with sculpting and baking, scattering rocks, adding blades of grass, dirt, all sorts of things. But like I said, this is a project you can add to with expansion packs or something too. So once you get to the point where your models are all unwrapped, support loops are added, and it looks good subdivided, then you have to think about the next step because there's a lot of options.

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A while back, I made this model of a dome. This was before PBR textures were popular. This thing has very basic textures, and the overall geometry was very simple before subdivision..

If I had used PBR textures with this, I probably could have brought out a lot more details and realism. Think about if you want to incorporate any more details into the low poly base mesh without sculpting. You can go a long way with just basic shapes and polygon modeling these days, especially with PBR textures. Sculpting will always be more reaslistic and detailed, but again, you can expand on anything with addons or expansion packs too.

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Wow, Lux, that is beatutiful!! Ok ... then I just need to figure how to import the dome you made into the main project. I've deleted the other dome and cubes which were the boolean objects to cut out the dome. I also made edge creases on all edges on the steps section and will do the same with the base. I'm still a little unsure about the edge loops to tighted the edges aside from the edge crease. I do know this is a very important step.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

I have to agree with Boni, as that's one great looking dome Lux.

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Hi Boni, looks like your project is progressing nicely. One suggestion I have is to make sure that you get the scale correct before getting too far along in your constructions. A good trick is to export from Poser or Daz a base figure in a standing position and one in a sitting position. That way you can check, for example, that when your exported figures backside is sitting on a seat in your ampitheatre that their feet are on the ground and the clearance behind them for the next seat is correct. You can also check that any steps are at the right spacing and height, entrances have the correct clearances etc. I do a lot of work compositing 3D models into photos of empty properties for real estate agents and I use this trick for almost every job I do to make sure that the scale of the lounge suites, dining room chairs and tables, beds etc are correct for the room that I am virtually staging.

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@Boni, @MissB Thank you both. Boni, let me know if you have any trouble appending the dome. I have a few ideas on some more stuff that could help detail your dome if you want. I'll also give you some ideas about what might work texture-wise for it. I think the same textures should work for the stairs as the dome, but that's up to you. One thing that might help with the project is to work on just one object at a time. Finish first the dome, then the stairs, then you can work out what to do with the ground. This will help keep things manageable for you. Sometimes a project like this can make you frustrated if you try to do too much at once. You have the basic shapes done, so that's a great start!

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keppel posted at 12:52PM Tue, 11 August 2020 - #4396620

Hi Boni, looks like your project is progressing nicely. One suggestion I have is to make sure that you get the scale correct before getting too far along in your constructions. A good trick is to export from Poser or Daz a base figure in a standing position and one in a sitting position. That way you can check, for example, that when your exported figures backside is sitting on a seat in your ampitheatre that their feet are on the ground and the clearance behind them for the next seat is correct. You can also check that any steps are at the right spacing and height, entrances have the correct clearances etc. I do a lot of work compositing 3D models into photos of empty properties for real estate agents and I use this trick for almost every job I do to make sure that the scale of the lounge suites, dining room chairs and tables, beds etc are correct for the room that I am virtually staging.

This is very good advice. Proportions are important, especially in the seating. That's another good reason to work with base mesh and lower polygon base models as much as possible because they're easier to edit than something you have sculpted. If you need to make adjustments to the proportions of the stairs, for example, there are techniques to allow that without having to remodel anything from scratch.

I don't know anything about Poser. So perhaps Keppel can guide you in the right direction as far as preparing the models for export to that package. I personally don't own Poser, so I'm not sure how the import and scale variations work in that software.

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Boni, just to give an idea of what can be done using only texture maps, I've quickly thrown together an example video. This is obviously not the kind of stone texture you had in mind, but I think it shows that with PBR texturing, even low poly models can be made to appear relatively detailed. I didn' t do any sculpting or baking for this, just used a tileable PBR texture map set with diffuse, roughness, normal map, and displacement. Something like this might be one optional way to go.

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LuxXeon posted at 10:35PM Thu, 13 August 2020 - #4396750

Boni, just to give an idea of what can be done using only texture maps, I've quickly thrown together an example video. This is obviously not the kind of stone texture you had in mind, but I think it shows that with PBR texturing, even low poly models can be made to appear relatively detailed. I didn' t do any sculpting or baking for this, just used a tileable PBR texture map set with diffuse, roughness, normal map, and displacement. Something like this might be one optional way to go.

Was that rendered in cycles? That looks interesting. Like temple ruins or something that was just dug up and discovered by archeologists.

Now Superfly needs to import that cycles displacement upgrade. Wow. How was that done?

Boni

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Here is the dome Lux made ... with a stone texture applied in Poser

I just imported as a Wavefront Obj. placed on floor at 100%.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

And here it is at 300% with La Femme for scale.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

That last render looks perfect, especially the size compared to LF.

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?

Boni

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Congrats, Boni. Looks great!

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Ok, how do I solidify the "bleachers" and base into a single form to export to Poser?

Boni

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Boni posted at 3:10PM Mon, 24 August 2020 - #4397614

Ok, how do I solidify the "bleachers" and base into a single form to export to Poser?

Not sure what you mean. Can you post a screenshot of what they look like now? The bleachers or steps really don't need to be solid models unless you're going to 3d print them down the road. In fact, you can delete the polygons on the bottom of the model entirely just to keep poly count lower if you want. Those faces would never be seen in a render anyway.

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My mistake was not ridding the figure of the 2 huge cubes I used to originally boolean the dome. Once I deleted them, I could import to Poser no problem. Now I see the stepping blocks are all wonky and that isn't a big deal ... I can fix that ... and some scaling. Then the detailing and texturing. I think I have a good start.

Boni

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You have a great start, Boni! It's looking good. Scaling looks fine. Have you experimented with a seated character on those steps to make sure the depth is correct? I don't know anything at all about Poser, so unfortunately I can't help with anything once it's exported from Blender but you're doing great!

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I was wondering how difficult it would be to cut out the steps instead of adding them? Like what Keppel showed. Also, now that I know how this is working in Poser, Would it be difficult once the chips and cracks are added to add ivy and scattered leaves on the structure? I'd like to do a procedural texture on it that I can translate to Poser since Poser uses a light version of cycles. Although having a UV map in case I need it wouldn't be a bad idea since detailing and a normal map would enhance it quite a bit. Am I overdoing?

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Also how do I smooth the basic structure without rounding the corners too much? I did the edge crease already.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Another question ... would this look better if it looked like stacked blocks ... like bricks, but just stacked? How hard would that be to create as a texture?

Boni

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Boni posted at 3:38PM Tue, 25 August 2020 - #4397688

Also how do I smooth the basic structure without rounding the corners too much? I did the edge crease already.

I'll answer this one first. You can add support loops to the steps as we did for the dome and then subdivide it to smooth things out. Support loops are required for that, because edge crease may not translate to the other software when you export the model. Another option is to just bevel the outer edges of the steps, which will give them a rounder appearance. Either way, you'll need to add more geometry.

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Boni posted at 3:51PM Tue, 25 August 2020 - #4397687

I was wondering how difficult it would be to cut out the steps instead of adding them? Like what Keppel showed. Also, now that I know how this is working in Poser, Would it be difficult once the chips and cracks are added to add ivy and scattered leaves on the structure? I'd like to do a procedural texture on it that I can translate to Poser since Poser uses a light version of cycles. Although having a UV map in case I need it wouldn't be a bad idea since detailing and a normal map would enhance it quite a bit. Am I overdoing?

I'm not sure what you mean here. In Keppel's example, he's created the steps by using instances or copies in an array I believe. That allows you to adjust things and add things to just small parts of the steps and then it will automatically copy those changes to other parts. It's a good way to work but it's slightly more advanced. Does your other software have this capability? Because once you export the model, it will need to be together as one object anyway.

Do you mean adding Ivy and Leaves as part of the procedural material? Honestly, I wouldn't bother doing it that way. The Ivy and leaves can be done as objects and exported along with the model. I guess you could bake that stuff into texture maps that use displacement and normal map, but personally I would just do that stuff as geometry.

If you can get Keppel to join the thread again maybe he can help you with what will work best for Poser. I don't want to give advice regarding that, because I really don't know anything about Poser or how it works with Blender. I suppose if Poser has displacement, then all those details, including the cracks, Ivy, leaves, etc. can be done that way. I just think leaves and ivy always look best as geometry, even if it's lower poly.

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Here is the worn, cracked cement I made.

I will have to translate this to Poser, but I think I have a good start.

Boni

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That looks really good, Boni. Did you try using that one on the dome? It looks different than the dome texture.

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The dome texture was inside of Poser ... this one I made in Blender. I would like to save the shader and use it again, but it looks like you have to go through a big process ... Can't you just name the shader and save to a shader file?

Boni

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And ... copy and paste a node set from one object to another in the same scene?

Boni

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Boni posted at 6:37PM Tue, 25 August 2020 - #4397716

And ... copy and paste a node set from one object to another in the same scene?

Yes, you can save a node tree in Blender. Have a look at this video...

You can also copy a shader from one object to another...

Actually, you can copy any type of data in Blender from one object to another, even Modifiers.

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If you want to save materials to use in other blender scenes, you can also do that in a variety of ways. The easiest way is just to Append a material from one .blend to another. That will import a material from one .blend scene file into another one, then you can apply that material to any object.

Another option is to use the Material Library VX addon in Blender 2.8x.

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Ok, figured it out. What do you think?

Boni

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Very impressive, Bon!. I don't know if you want to do it, but maybe scale down the size of the cracks on the dome a little bit? It's up to you. Looking good,

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Yes, I think that is a good idea too. I will do that. The material zones transferred to Poser but I need to build a compatible node tree in Poser. I still want to add ivy, leaves dirt and other details. Maybe tufts of weeds and grass growing in cracks.

Boni

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Blender has an IvyGen addon built-in which can be used to create ivy growth on any object or surface. There's also many 3rd party ivy generators and addons which work very well for growing realistic looking ivy on surfaces, but I'd start by checking out the included IvyGen addon first. Unless you want to just do it as a texture/material, but most of the time I feel like that doesn't look as good. It can be useful as a way to include more detail, but I think at least some of the ivy and grass need to be geometry to really give it that extra detail.

Unlike Ivy, I think grass can be done mostly with just textures/materials. Maybe include just a few blades of real geometry here and there to make it pop, but grass and dirt can go a long way with displacement and normal maps. What's your plan for doing those?

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I will most likely need to use geometry grass for the model as Poser hasn't updated cycles displacement abilities to 2.8 levels. I have a plant generator I might use, but I'd rather do as much inside of Blender and Poser as possible.

Boni

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Boni posted at 12:55PM Wed, 26 August 2020 - #4397749

I will most likely need to use geometry grass for the model as Poser hasn't updated cycles displacement abilities to 2.8 levels. I have a plant generator I might use, but I'd rather do as much inside of Blender and Poser as possible.

You really wouldn't need advanced techniques for grass displacement. It's really just a noise pattern displacing a grass color texture. Any kind of simple displacement would work for that, but I agree that using some geometry grass in certain places will look great.

I'll be honest in saying that I really don't like the way the IvyGen addon in Blender works. There are tutorials on Youtube for using it, but I just never cared for the results. You may have better luck with it. Personally, I've always used the Ivy Generator by Thomas Luft. It's only a 32-bit software, but still the results were alway reliable and much more realistic to me than anything the IvyGen addon produced.

I don't know if you've ever used it before, but this is the industry standard Ivy Generator, and pretty much what all other Ivy Generators are based on anyway, even Blender's IvyGen. http://ivy-generator.com/

You just import your objects as OBj into the software, pick a spot to begin growth of the ivy, and it does the rest. Then you can export the results to whatever software you use.

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I respect your skill but as you don't use Poser you don't see the issue in that there is no micromesh-displacement. It's ... chunky because it follows the vertices. that and a shadow catcher are the primary cycles additions we are pushing for in the next version. I will look into the third party ivy maker, thank you. I would like to add a layer of dirt and dust to the model ... do I just add that to a new slot?

Boni

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Boni posted at 8:08PM Wed, 26 August 2020 - #4397774

I respect your skill but as you don't use Poser you don't see the issue in that there is no micromesh-displacement. It's ... chunky because it follows the vertices. that and a shadow catcher are the primary cycles additions we are pushing for in the next version. I will look into the third party ivy maker, thank you. I would like to add a layer of dirt and dust to the model ... do I just add that to a new slot?

Oh no problem. Yeah, I fully admit I have absolutely no knowledge of Poser at all. I distributed a lot of my free models for Poser years ago, but only in OBJ format. Honestly, the only reason I found this website was because I used to use the 3dsmax and 3d Modeling forums here, until switching over to Blender. I really didn't know it was mostly for Poser stuff.

I've had success using the hair particle system in Blender for some grass before. It allows you to weight pain over areas of the model where you'd like to have grass, and then gives you options for randomness to make it look more realistic. I'm sure there's a way to bake the results for exporting to other software too.

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Regarding the dirt and dust. Since you're doing this as a procedural shader, then yes you'll need to create a new shader for the dirt and dust. Then you would need to mix those together with a mix shader node, and create some kind of texture mask or use the layer weight node to control the location. That's probably something you'll do directly in Poser I imagine.

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Boni, just a quick question so I don't waste your time with answers or suggestions that aren't helpful: Will you be doing all the materials and textures for this project as procedural nodes? The work you've done already looks really great, but I was just wondering how you're doing the materials going forward. I thought you'd be creating them with nodes in Blender, then baking those down into texture maps to transport over to Poser, but it seems you've decided instead to just to keep everything native to Poser with the node system there, Will that also be the case for all the items in the scene like the ground, grass, rocks and Ivy?

I just want to make sure I understand so that I'm not giving you more work than you would need, or worse, giving you suggestions that don't fit the project at all.

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Hi Boni, just wanting to comment on a couple of things mentioned in the more recent series of posts.

Firstly with the steps in the seating area example that I posted earlier [@4395611](https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2950071&page_number=2#)
The steps were not cut out of the seating area mesh, they were modeled into it from the beginning. As Lux mentioned to take the sharp edges off the model you would need to add controlling edge loops with a sub-division modifier. If you used a boolean operation to cut them out the topology would be messed up making it hard to add any proper controlling edge loops.

Another thing to be mindful of is trying to keep the polycount as low as possible whilst still maintaining your models shape. In the attached screen shot I show the typical progression. As Lux advised earlier start with a low poly mesh to get your shapes then add complexity to it to define it. Removing excessive edge loops can reduce the models polycount considerably. You can see that the smoothed edges of the steps still remain after the excessive edge loops are removed.

Image 1.jpg

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When it comes to adding vegetation to a scene in Poser you hit an obstacle because Poser doesn't support particles systems. As an example the amount of vegetation I added to this scene as particle systems in Blender would be impossible to do in Poser. Gallery image

Adding mesh object plants, trees, grass etc can quickly increase the scenes polycount by huge amounts. A single tree may have as many faces as your whole ampitheatre. Another option that you might consider is using planes with transparent PNG textures applied for your plants. In the attached screenshot from Blender the first panels show the simplicity of the actual mesh. The second panel shows the same model rendered in Poser with the transparency and shadows. A good result with minimal additional polycount.

Render 1.jpg

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Regarding getting the scale right between Blender and Poser. I mentioned in an earlier post that if you export a base figure from Poser as an obj file it will assist in getting the relative scale correct of all the objects in your scene, but it also works in exporting from Blender to Poser.

When you export the base figure from Poser, leave the export scale percentage at the default 100%. When you import that obj file into Blender leave it at the scale it imported at. Now scale your Blender scene to the correct size relative to the base figure. When you export out of Blender again make sure that the export scale stays at the default 100%. Now when you import the Blender obj models into Poser they will be at the correct scale within Poser.

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Great suggestions guys. I'm experimenting with different ideas. Including building the nodes inside of Poser as I did with this render.

With Ivy.png

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

I'm thinking the "bake down" will be better in the end ... and somehow creating different texture zones. But again just experimenting here. BTW, this is rendered inside of Poser with a concrete shader and a basic green base color added to the leaves of the ivy.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

The ivy looks really good! I think Keppel has a great idea for doing at least the grass with image planes. Will save you a lot of geometry and probably look fine in Poser.

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I might do hair room for grass ... Once I have all the mats right in Blender I want to bake it down and do mat zones to be more compatable with poser

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Boni posted at 3:37PM Sun, 30 August 2020 - #4397994

I might do hair room for grass ... Once I have all the mats right in Blender I want to bake it down and do mat zones to be more compatable with poser

One thing you might want to do before deciding on the bake down process is to take a very simple object, like a cube, and assign several different material zones to it. Then export that cube over to Poser and make sure the material zones still show up. If you exported with correct settings, it should work no problem. I haven't used the File Locker here on Renderosity in a long time, but I made a very simple .blend scene file for you with a cube that has 6 different material zones assigned to it. You can download this scene file from the link, then try to export that over to Poser to test out the export settings. The cube should import to Poser with the same 6 material zones intact if all went according to plan.

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/rrfilelock/download.php?fileid=54633&key=1414

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Oh! Thank you, I will do this tomorrow when I am on my work computer.

Boni

"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork

Forum: Blender

Subject: small amphitheater