dbwalton opened this issue on Oct 23, 2020 · 76 posts
dbwalton posted Fri, 23 October 2020 at 12:34 PM
I thought I'd post this here instead of the DAZ forum because, well, this isn't controlled by DAZ.
I've noticed DAZ seems to be posting new items and sales, but I have been getting lots of errors in DAZ Studio, and haven't heard ANY response from DAZ in WEEKS regarding a trouble ticket I opened. In fact, after about 3 weeks, I contacted them asking, "What's up? I haven't heard anything."
I got an auto-reply back saying if I didn't reply (to the auto reply), they would assume my problem is fixed and close my ticket.
In the past, customer support has been slow to answer (usually a week), but 3, 4 or more weeks???
I'm really tempted to drive to their HQs and look around to see if anyone is still there.
JVRenderer posted Fri, 23 October 2020 at 2:59 PM
Hi, I'm sorry to hear that you couldn't get the help you need from Daz. U was in a similar situation. I bought a product from Daz in August. The product was giving me missing files error. I was able to pin point the missing files and sent a ticket to Daz. I got a autoreply after resending the ticket a week later, and then another generic reply that they're looking into it. I wanted to return the product within the 30 days of purchase, however, I was able to contact the Publishing Artist of that product myself and was able to resolve the issue. He explained that Daz has purchased the product outright, but packaged it wrongly. My ticket is still open, and it's been 2 months. I understand you're frustrations, but the last few years, Daz' customer service has gone downhill. I don't know if this help. I joint a Discord service a few months ago, where fellow Daz Users/Artists/Vendor chat with each other, helping each other with issues and sharing art ideas. More often than not, I find my answers at this Discord server faster than roaming the various 3D forums. I can't guarantee you'll find all the answers instantly, but at least there are people with similar issues that can share ideas.
I don't know if this link is allowed. Moderators, please take it off if it's not allowed. Thank you and good luck. https://disboard.org/server/578543104492306432
Software: Daz Studio 4.15, Photoshop CC, Zbrush 2022, Blender 3.3, Silo 2.3, Filter Forge 4. Marvelous Designer 7
Hardware: self built Intel Core i7 8086K, 64GB RAM, RTX 3090 .
"If you spend too much time arguing about software, you're spending too little time creating art!" ~ SomeSmartAss
"A critic is a legless man who teaches running." ~ Channing Pollock
dbwalton posted Fri, 23 October 2020 at 3:47 PM
Thanks for the information. I will check out that forum.
manleystanley posted Mon, 26 October 2020 at 6:52 AM
Gone down hill? I left DAZ years ago for just these reasons. DAZ is well known for going full steam ahead and never looking back. So pretty well ignoring issues with content; But then DAZ is just a sales platform not a content creator. If you have issues with content it is best to go right to the actual creator.
The best part of DAZ was the founder, who left to start another CG content site because DAZ turned in to something he didn't recognize.
Torquinox posted Thu, 29 October 2020 at 10:40 AM
You can bring up topics like this on Daz boards. People do all the time! I think Daz is having some sort of growing pains. They're putting out more products than ever and trying to do more with their products. Plus they have new demands placed on them thanks to changes in NVidia's graphics cards. Add in the pandemic and it means some stuff slips by. I think they're doing the best they can, and all this will get sorted over time. At least I hope it will!
wolf359 posted Thu, 29 October 2020 at 3:45 PM
A Daz staff member "DAZ_Rob" Reccently boasted in the forums they were so busy that they had to " take on new staff".?
Indeed they are attempting to grow there user base beyond the still render portrait & pin-up girl crowd with their new export plugins to Maya ,Blender, C4D, Max etc.
As the front page of the main daz site would indicate, Daz is desparately trying to rebrand themselves and a content resource for the professional CG /Gaming communities
But if you look at their new forums for those apps, it is the same still render portrait & pin-up girl crowd. posting the same early 20's ,Ideal BMI, white genesis girls largely staring into the void of an empty universe.......
Except rendered Blender or Unreal engine etc, instead of DS IRay.?
You can only grow your user base by bringing in new buyers
The professional game companies like ubisoft are using Blender,Maya Max etc but they are creating custom content from scratch for each game title certainly not wasting time with bloated genesis figures chucked out from Kiddie pool toys like Daz studio. .
And the casual hobbiests doing still portraits & pinups, are likely already Daz customers ,waiting for the next big 50% discount sale and saving up for a bigger GPU to keep pace with NIVIDIA and ridiculous 4-8K textures being used in many Daz store products. ?
Torquinox posted Thu, 29 October 2020 at 4:44 PM
That's quite a post, Wolf! :D I've no doubt they need a little extra staff. I've no doubt customers are waiting for discounts. That's part of the game here and there.
You surely know Marvel has used Daz for pre-vis on its movies and people use Daz for lots of things. I know some people want to use Daz assets in their indie games. That's done more easily now, I guess. But if I were a vendor there I would not provide the interactive license for that. Daz has discounted those to nothing.
I don't know what protections Daz actually provides against license abuse. I recall they've showed you the pointy end of the stick for making clothing mannequins. But that was before the big inter-program compatibility push. I wonder if that would be such a big deal now?
I would not throw stones at the pinup or stills crowd. They've kept things going for decades! Plus there is a lot of interesting not-pinup content here and at Daz. And I enjoy a good pinup. ;)
The Iray/GPU thing is a problem, but how long did 3D rendering technology seemingly sit still? A long time, I think. Now it's moving forward, but it's moving forward in a big jump and there are research and hardware costs. The pricing on all that will surely produce a divide in the market, especially now. And yet, prices may come down a bit when AMD strikes back in a more meaningful way and when NVidia reaches the limits of this growth spurt.
The giant textures issue is a different problem. Daz QA lets all that go, but I doubt anyone wants gigabyte downloads for throw pillows. Vendors need to be a little more realistic about how their products are used. The part I don't like is, I see compression artifacts in some of these big textures. So, they're offering more resolution than many people need while overcompressing their map files to keep the per-file size down. I think there is room for improved optimization!
Anyway, I find your outlook interesting. Thanks for that :)
manleystanley posted Thu, 29 October 2020 at 8:37 PM
LOL So DAZ hasn't really changed in 5 years.
Torquinox I've been banned from the DAZ forums 3 times for bringing up these topics. I can guarantee you none of this is new at DAZ. My opinion is DAZ customers and content producers are an ouroboros.
Just how many lace teddies does Victoria need?
Torquinox posted Thu, 29 October 2020 at 9:06 PM
From what I can tell, Vicky needs all the lace teddies she can get. But she also has plenty of sensible attire. I've seen serious complaints that new outfits aren't sexy enough. No pleasing everyone. And as various vendors have said here and there, they need their products to sell in order to make money.
You got banned 3 times? Sounds awful, but you got back in a few times, too. :D IDK what you said to get banned or when that happened. The best I've managed to do so far is get a a few posts deleted, maybe a thread once. NBD, really. It's hard to get along on a forum! There are misunderstandings. People have moments and they wig out. And these are all nice, pleasant forums!
I balance some of the weird things that happen against Daz's generosity, especially during lockdown. I still think they really are doing their best. Things happen that people don't like. People disagree with decisions, people make mistakes, people get disillusioned. I try my best to give the benefit of the doubt. That's all I can do or say about that. And I hope the issues from the OP and others get resolved.
manleystanley posted Fri, 30 October 2020 at 7:36 AM
I got back in because of the multiple Emails I had from game alpha testing.
But ya, the demand for slut wear has always out stripped the demand for street wear. You can always tell what movie is in the top slot by the number of produces produced in that theme. When the pirates of the Caribbean was in, there was a new pirate outfit by some one every week or so. But just try to find a pair of bib overalls or a hunting jacket. Same thing every time a new star wars movie comes out. Thing is it is really too easy to make Studio content now. The app is set up to do a lot of it automatically. Practically anyone that wants to take a month or so to learn how to do it, can.
Yet try to find those geographed genitalia on DAZ.Or a fixed version for geneses so they can be used in carrara with out redoing the UVs. That is top of my list of gripes about DAZ. They tend to see only forward and never look back. So there is a very slim chance DAZ will fix broken content; or even remove it from the store knowing it's broke. The UVmapping on Genests male genitalia has been screwed up since it dropped. Never fixed and DAZ is still selling it in the big essentials pack. Hell of a note for the people that bought the bundle FOR the genitalia. Why fix 1 when 2 is up? Why fix 2 when 3 is up? DAZ once had a plug in up for 18 months knowing it was broken. Took multiple people getting refunds on it and threatening lawsuits for them to pull it. And the way it looks DAZ has not changed.
But DAZ wasn't always like this. At one time I conversed regular with the founders. DAZ bought out a company that then took over DAZ and both the founders ended up leaving; one starting his own content store and developing a competing figure. .Dawn https://hivewire3d.com/ Need to book mark that, 2 of my favorite content artists are there;Lisa's Botanicals, and Ken Gilliland.
I got banned because I am a carrarest not a Dazzy. And DAZ was [expleative} carrara hard at the time. My opinion DAZ bought carrara to get the IDK{?} for poser 5-7 and then when DAZ realized they couldn't strip any more out of carrara for Studio they abandoned it, as well as a few hundred customers that used carrara. DAZ did not see us as valued customers. Mostly because we could make or mod what we needed. Thing is I have 36 pages of DAZ content. Imagine what I'd have if DAZ hadn't have abandoned Carrara. And I wasn't the only carraest throwing money at DAZ.
Man, this is weird for me. I don't normally carry a grudge.
Torquinox posted Fri, 30 October 2020 at 8:53 AM
You make a lot of good points, a lot to consider.
It seems reasonably easy to set up content in DS, but it still takes modeling and texturing skills to make the content in the first place. It might make sense to make some bib overalls and a hunting jacket.
Carrara has not been well treated, no. It's a deep and well-sorted program with a lot to recommend it, but I think we're all going to die of old age before they update it. At this point, I doubt they have the resources to do anything with it. They'd need to hire a team, and the new Carrara would likely be an entirely different program.
Those other mis-steps are annoying. It's the sort of thing that happens in companies, and who knows why? You could be right about all of it, and It's probably best to let the grudge go.
crowbar posted Sun, 29 November 2020 at 1:19 PM
To be honest I wouldnt be surprised if Daz is being bitten by its own decisions. Yes a centrally managed system doling out files a la Daz Central would cut down on copyright protection problems but it is doing it in the most expensive way possible to imagine. Even an Amazon server farm makes me wait minutes just to get up a favourites list of a couple of hundred items. A central index for thousands of multigigabit daz directories of users is just using so much server processor/ network packet / switch time that I would guess the Daz Central versus the store are fighting each other for resources
RHaseltine posted Sun, 29 November 2020 at 2:26 PM
Daz Central is just a different front end, underneath it's essentially the same as Install manager (which is still available).
richardandtracy posted Tue, 12 September 2023 at 6:43 AM
As a bit of a dinosaur, I must admit I use DS4.21 in pretty much the same way as I did DS0.7. The new rendering capability of iRay is nice, but 3DL could do good stuff with effort and attention to detail. LiquidRust showed that years ago (see this 3DL image (https://www.renderosity.com/gallery/items/1040363/testing-lips-and-eye-relfections)). The controllers like 'Right Fingers Grip' save time, but they don't mirror at all, so this is useless for someone like me producing occasional pose sets - and makes me keep on being a dinosaur. The problems that so many have with DIM loaded content and DAZ Central content has convinced me to install stuff the same way I did for DS 0.7 - manually. That way I know who's at fault if it doesn't work. Also, not using the content databases means that I can move stuff around to suit my organisation method.
I am unconvinced by G9. It appears to be worse than G8 for everything except portrait close-ups. G8 Clothing & hair seem to fit G9 worse and more erratically than G3 fits G8, especially after a save & exit then re-load. The joints look like rubber and few PA's seem to be able to get decent muscle definition from the base mesh and rely excessively on HD morphs to get the details already present in the G8 base mesh - it's just ridiculous to make such a massive backwards step while pretending it's a step forwards. I rather feel G9 is a case of the Emperor's New Clothes, people unwilling to admit they've made a mistake. I look forward to G10. Maybe one or two lessons will have been learnt, even if the problems have never been admitted/acknowledged.
As for the skimpwear. That, I fear, is likely to be an enduring feature of all figure animation/rendering programs. Early 20's female characters are much easier on the eye than grumpy old men like me. Take a look at TV adverts, and assess whether 'Early 20's Females' are over-represented (regardless of ethnic origin). I think you will find they are, and these early 20's females will enhance the image/animation/product in an attractive way - it's all described as the 'Halo Effect'.
Regards,
Richard.
DocPhoton posted Thu, 14 September 2023 at 11:01 PM
It's interesting the read the history and other experiences.
I quit using their forums last year as frankly it was useless for me to try and get any timely information. Tech Support: Hmmm, they try. They've a Sysiphusian task, caught between management and the programmers. But their arrogance regarding no documentation, which the entire planet apparently knows about judging by youtube postings, is not really excusable.
I use the FBX exporter a lot, and a recent update actually made it worse. The OBJ exporter is rock solid so is truly a Pre-set. Not so with the FBX exporter. You have to check usually reset the options EACH TIME!!! A real time waster. Have they fixed it? No. I made comments about that & got censored. They said I was making "personal attacks". ??!!? Interesting, since I don't know anyone to make personal attacks against, nor mentioned any names as I don't know anyone! I only made comment about the SOFTWARE as it has regressed and gotten worse, AS ANY USER LONG TIME SHOULD!
But the kicker was some months back. I posted a new topic, simply asking about getting a particular product's expressions & morphs to export. I got a reply & replied to that. Checked an hour or so later, and my original posting was gone! I could see the original reply, but any reply I made went into the ether. And then the reply vanished too.
So I guess must be officially persona non grata and didn't know it. Fine. Don't know, and frankly don't care, not worth my time or effort at this point.
But I still buy their products; they'll take my money but not my questions. ;)
If ya want to talk dinosaurs: Step Right Up!
I export everything out to Lightwave, which is another saga these days. But to do what Daz does with expression morphs, I edit geometry and rename those morphs to get a single control. But the result is that I've a LOT more control over surfacing, lighting, DoF, Motion Blur, etc. A number of other packages can as well of course, but I've a fair amount invested in auxiliary tools (several you can't even get now), & I've gotten my pipeline to where I can handle everything except dForce hair. Blender handles that well, so have to knuckle down & learn Blender.
I'm passing on the Gen 9 stuff too. Gen 9 makes that all the more complicated and so far I've seen very few new characters to make it worth the effort.
FirstBastion posted Mon, 18 September 2023 at 8:14 AM
I'm not investing in Genesis 9 right now, mainy because Gen8 had so many great characters that my library has all the variety it needs to tell my stories.
I'm also using 4.16 primarily for rendering and runs well on my system. I do have 4.21 installed for testing on another computer, but that's it.
I think the whole market is going through transformations right now, facing challenges with everything from introduction of AI to the slowing down of the economy.
pjz99 posted Sat, 30 September 2023 at 4:34 AM
G9 feels like a big step backwards from G8 in a lot of ways, much harder to make content for and the over-reliance on high subdivision to get any basic anatomy details. Going back to the androgynous base shape and the simple tube topology of very old figures is baffling.
ronaldknights posted Mon, 23 October 2023 at 5:48 PM
I don't frequent the DAZ forums very much. I post only very rarely. I'm disappointed that there are very few male clothes for Genesis 9. I don't want pirates, etc. I don't do female pinups either. DAZ made a big claim that Genesis 9 males could wear female clothes. I posted that this wasn't realistic. They deleted my post.
I sometimes complain about "Vanity" folders because it's so hard to find my content. I never keep track of vendor's names. I get some replies from the PAs that tells me their content experience is totally different from mine. Since they're PAs, most of their content is installed under PAs names.
I submitted a ticket about a problem with a scene from Moonshine's diner. I got a reply announcing a fix, two years later.
dbwalton posted Mon, 23 October 2023 at 7:04 PM
"I submitted a ticket about a problem with a scene from Moonshine's diner. I got a reply announcing a fix, two years later."
YIKES!
Timberoo posted Wed, 22 November 2023 at 2:45 PM
I'm disappointed that there are very few male clothes for Genesis 9. I don't want pirates, etc. I don't do female pinups either. DAZ made a big claim that Genesis 9 males could wear female clothes. I posted that this wasn't realistic. They deleted my post.
The marketing of Genesis 9 as unisex is wishful thinking. The reality is that vast majority of content for the figure is what I would consider to be traditionally female clothes. Lots of high heels, blouses, skirts, lingerie and the like. When something is modeled after a men's garment it usually is lacking the details, like a collar band on a men's woven collared button up shirt.
Genesis 9, whether by intent or without realizing it, is optimized for the Daz3D volume customers - people who render women with breasts. The mesh has baked in cleavage between and under the breasts that I haven't seen anyone ZBrush away.
It makes sense that their largest customer base would be their main focus, but they really don't like anyone saying that in the forums.
IAmNobodySpecial posted Tue, 12 December 2023 at 10:48 AM
Thumbnails for content are overrated anyway. Just keep clicking on all of the dead icons you see and eventually you'll find what you're looking for, without all of that pesky information, guidance, visual cues and SMART content slowing your workflow down.
Nevertrumper posted Tue, 12 December 2023 at 11:05 AM
THIS !G9 feels like a big step backwards from G8 in a lot of ways, much harder to make content for and the over-reliance on high subdivision to get any basic anatomy details. Going back to the androgynous base shape and the simple tube topology of very old figures is baffling.
DarkElegance posted Thu, 18 July 2024 at 4:24 PM
I have lost all hope in the DAZ support and definitely in the forums.
I have at least 3 support tickets now open since last July.
One was a fairly important one about a vdb product(the entire render came out great, except the VDB which looked like it was in minecraft! And to this day, I can't get it to work. No matter how ramped up the settings are or what settings I use. It comes out horrifically pixelated as it it was an 8 bit graphic). Another was about a set of eyes…that after posting in technical, found out the issue has been reported since 2018, and they do not fix it nor reply to support.
As for the forums? I made the very sad mistake of making a post(and yes I have the screenshot) of saying (in regard to IP rights and fan products) "Some companies will go after you, some wont."
I mentioned it tends to be based on how close visually an item was.
(seriously, the post was about 3 lines. Not even a paragraph)
This got my post removed and a warning. (I kid you not). I then tried to post again, to get a warning that my posts were being moderated. I wrote to the admins as I went through the TOS and -nothing- was in there about this kind of post. To be told, "Its not explicitly in the TOS, but its the moderators feeling that it was inappropriate"
So basically, even if something is not against ToS, they can just remove it and warn you. Leaving customers not even knowing what is and isn't allowed to be said.
Needless to say, I stopped posting to their gallery and have seriously cut down what I purchase. I purchase items that I can not find on other sights now. But due to some of their issues with pricing, discounts, and replies from the forums...I have given it a skip on purchasing some items. Which, I know, hurts the artist more than the site. Which I dont like to do but...
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
DarkElegance posted Thu, 18 July 2024 at 4:31 PM
ronaldknights posted at 5:48 PM Mon, 23 October 2023 - #4476711Gen9 is a pain. I have just about every morph package/correction package, and the under arms particularly are a pain.I'm disappointed that there are very few male clothes for Genesis 9. I don't want pirates, etc. I don't do female pinups either. DAZ made a big claim that Genesis 9 males could wear female clothes. I posted that this wasn't realistic. They deleted my post.
The marketing of Genesis 9 as unisex is wishful thinking. The reality is that vast majority of content for the figure is what I would consider to be traditionally female clothes. Lots of high heels, blouses, skirts, lingerie and the like. When something is modeled after a men's garment it usually is lacking the details, like a collar band on a men's woven collared button up shirt.
Genesis 9, whether by intent or without realizing it, is optimized for the Daz3D volume customers - people who render women with breasts. The mesh has baked in cleavage between and under the breasts that I haven't seen anyone ZBrush away.
It makes sense that their largest customer base would be their main focus, but they really don't like anyone saying that in the forums.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
ronaldknights posted Fri, 19 July 2024 at 12:51 PM
I really felt good about DAZ, maybe 20 years ago. But in the decades since, it's just been a regular nightmare.
I can't find stuff because DAZ insists on creating its own insane way of handling the alphabet. When I buy a shirt, I don't want to look under the PA's name to find it. I never remember a PAs name.
As for "real world" clothing for males or females: I was delighted when I discovered Genesis 8. There were all sorts of fantastic "mature" male & female characters, and clothes to go with them.
That must have been a fluke, because Genesis 9 is sorely lacking.
gohanf22 posted Sun, 21 July 2024 at 11:24 AM
DAZ Moderators are now even closing threads now. I posted a thread about when Gen 9 to Gen 8 Conversion tool is coming cause I WILL NOT support Degeneracy ever. That model is a clear pandering tactic. I can't wait till i really start learning Blender/Lightwave/Zbrush cause I will leave DAZ and let it just sink...
Tired of this bs...
Torquinox posted Sun, 21 July 2024 at 5:41 PM
DarkElegance posted Sun, 21 July 2024 at 8:30 PM
I have to say that is true. Both the search function(its a nightmare and its no better in the program)I really felt good about DAZ, maybe 20 years ago. But in the decades since, it's just been a regular nightmare.
I can't find stuff because DAZ insists on creating its own insane way of handling the alphabet. When I buy a shirt, I don't want to look under the PA's name to find it. I never remember a PAs name.
As for "real world" clothing for males or females: I was delighted when I discovered Genesis 8. There were all sorts of fantastic "mature" male & female characters, and clothes to go with them.
That must have been a fluke, because Genesis 9 is sorely lacking.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
DarkElegance posted Sun, 21 July 2024 at 8:36 PM
Yes they do!DAZ Moderators are now even closing threads now. I posted a thread about when Gen 9 to Gen 8 Conversion tool is coming cause I WILL NOT support Degeneracy ever. That model is a clear pandering tactic. I can't wait till i really start learning Blender/Lightwave/Zbrush cause I will leave DAZ and let it just sink...
Tired of this bs...
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
RedPhantom posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 7:07 AM Site Admin
While I can see them not wanting a bunch of questions about the legality of their products posted in their forums, if it were licensed you would expect them to post that in the description. If someone were to report to Disney, I imagine there could be some trouble at least for not crediting them.
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gohanf22 posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 7:25 AM
And a post I did in an OLDER thread was deleted and again was asking when Gen 9 to Gen 8 Morph Conversion Tool was coming. Yeah they literally succumbed to the damn ESG/DEI bs...
RHaseltine posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 9:23 AM
...or just have a ToS rule against bumping/reposting.
Torquinox posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 11:14 AM
So, since Richard's here, I guess we can talk about him to his face. That's always better. I don't hate you Richard, but we ain't friends. I'm going to leave this snippet here by itself in case it violates any rules.
Torquinox posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 11:16 AM
I recall, back before Daz decided DS could be a universal exporter to other softwares, we could get threads closed or deleted by even talking about Blender in a positive light. I suspect Daz might have still thought about maybe updating Carrara beyond 8.5. O course, that never happened and now DS is a universal exporter care of built-in exporters and bridge plug-ins. Times change!
Torquinox posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 11:26 AM
As for the odious paid-for EL items, those are odious wherever they're offered, regardless of site or vendor. Why? Because the subtext says, "We're going to sell you these items that we're not authorized to make or sell (because, let's face it, if these sites had official licensing arrangements, they would boast of their licensing arrangements and show the requisite official logos!) - And you are going to pay us for these items, and you are not allowed to use these items to make a profit for yourself." Yeah! And of course, Richard or Frank would definitely delete my post and send me a nastygram for saying all this - Not that I care. As I said, paid for EL items are odious and I would never buy one. And I did say things like this over their and they did get deleted. >_>
Torquinox posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 11:28 AM
And who knows? My posts may also be deleted here and I might also get a nastygram, but that's just how it goes. I don;t mean any harm, but truth is a weapon.
Torquinox posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 11:33 AM
Anyway, the unknown part of the EL license is, what's enforcement mechanism? Is Daz or another site going to lawyer up and come after a customer for selling pictures made with EL items? That would be interesting! Daz reps will not discuss that topic. Imagine that! And the related truth is, all the products of all the sites are available for (often free) download from sites that are beyond the legal reach of any US company. Piracy, plain words. I am a merciless bargain hunter, but I don't steal content. Yet, I know these places exist and I know of the limitation because I have accidentally found such sites, dutifully reported them, and been told the pirates are beyond reach.
OK I'm done now. Just had to get all that off my chest.
DarkElegance posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 11:44 AM
RedPhantom posted at 7:07 AM Mon, 22 July 2024 - #4487540
The issue was that the items were not “similar” but -exact- copies. They used the fonts for the genre/companies, they used trademarked names etc.While I can see them not wanting a bunch of questions about the legality of their products posted in their forums, if it were licensed you would expect them to post that in the description. If someone were to report to Disney, I imagine there could be some trouble at least for not crediting them.
Never mind I already ended up in a bother as I bought this armour(its nice too). No mention of any association with a game.
Used it a few times till someone asked "Oh is that a crysis fan piece"
Left me abit speechless. I was not familiar with the game. The moment I peeked at it, it is an almost straight rip of the game.
THAT is one of the biggest issues.
People being blind sided. Just post if it is in “partnership with” and guess what? No one is going to question it
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
DarkElegance posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 11:49 AM
BINGO!Anyway, the unknown part of the EL license is, what's enforcement mechanism? Is Daz or another site going to lawyer up and come after a customer for selling pictures made with EL items? That would be interesting! Daz reps will not discuss that topic. Imagine that! And the related truth is, all the products of all the sites are available for (often free) download from sites that are beyond the legal reach of any US company. Piracy, plain words. I am a merciless bargain hunter, but I don't steal content. Yet, I know these places exist and I know of the limitation because I have accidentally found such sites, dutifully reported them, and been told the pirates are beyond reach.
OK I'm done now. Just had to get all that off my chest.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
DarkElegance posted Mon, 22 July 2024 at 11:53 AM
RHaseltine posted at 9:23 AM Mon, 22 July 2024 - #4487542
Or just...here my out...its a crazy idea....or just have a ToS rule against bumping/reposting.
Only delete and warn when there is an -actual- ToS Violation.
Answer valid concerns of customers.
Stop deleting things that are asking valid questions.
And stop treating your customers like they are an enemy that needs to be shut up.
Its a novel idea...I know!
But...just answer valid concerns and no one will have the concerns!
SO simple.
It saves some of us having to write Disney, project red, Tolkien etc to ask!
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
Torquinox posted Tue, 23 July 2024 at 7:42 PM
DarkElegance posted at 11:44 AM Mon, 22 July 2024 - #4487548
If there is a partnership, it's well-hidden with no press releases, no fanfare, no sign of partnership or licensing deal. Everyone should question it.THAT is one of the biggest issues.
People being blind sided. Just post if it is in “partnership with” and guess what? No one is going to question it
DarkElegance posted Tue, 23 July 2024 at 11:32 PM
Torquinox posted at 7:42 PM Tue, 23 July 2024 - #4487693
And that was why so many of us were going "Eh....is this ok?"DarkElegance posted at 11:44 AM Mon, 22 July 2024 - #4487548
If there is a partnership, it's well-hidden with no press releases, no fanfare, no sign of partnership or licensing deal. Everyone should question it.THAT is one of the biggest issues.
People being blind sided. Just post if it is in “partnership with” and guess what? No one is going to question it
https://www.disneystudiolicensing.com/
(you can find the link for Star wars and Marvel)
So, my concern was(valid) did they get that permission? If so, why not just post it!?
Just say, proudly, "Hey, we are now able to sell licensed fan items for...."
Consumers have a right to know that. No ToS circumvents law. That is a -fact-.
Paint it as "fan art" or not. If they don't have permission, that is an issue for those that falsely believe they are purchasing items in good faith.
It's a valid concern. One, I would have thought, Daz would have supported. Because they are against piracy. Yet here again, is the issue of IP rights in Daz and no one there willing to say "yes, we have the rights"
Then there is the LOTR stuff.
https://www.middleearth.com/faq.html
According to that..
"I
want to make and sell merchandise using names, likenesses, quotes, or
descriptions from The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings books and films.
Do I need to obtain permission or enter into a license?
Yes,
permission and a license are definitely required. If you would like
to pursue a license, please refer to our Licensing Guidelines Page to
see if your business might qualify for a license. We will review your
request carefully. We must caution you that we do not enter into
licensing arrangements with every interested party, but we will consider
carefully whether your business is a good fit for our brand and we will
respond in a timely manner."
So, where is the "We have proudly procured a licence to sell items from the movies/books of LotR" announcement? I mean, the sales would increase if those announcements were made!
Its so simple. Just...clarify for your paying customers.
So...simple.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
SydneyInPeril posted Fri, 02 August 2024 at 6:51 PM
I pretty much stopped going when they rolled out ads on the forum and gallery - I've had at least one friend there tell me that they basically started doing it without announcing it, and in response they pulled their gallery images down because they were based on a home tabletop game and they'd posted in good faith that it wouldn't get advertising placed on them after the fact. And I more recently poked around and found they've been dabbling with a generative art engine, which pretty much finished me with them.
I'm still debating whether I keep using the software (I blocked internet for it at the firewall so it can't "phone home" in case they're pulling images to feed into that engine), switch back to Poser again (expensive upgrade for me now and requires abandoning content I've paid for), or even just abandon the whole thing 25 year old content archive and go back to sketchtablets and building my own 3D in Blender.
RHaseltine posted Fri, 02 August 2024 at 7:00 PM
I pretty much stopped going when they rolled out ads on the forum and gallery - I've had at least one friend there tell me that they basically started doing it without announcing it, and in response they pulled their gallery images down because they were based on a home tabletop game and they'd posted in good faith that it wouldn't get advertising placed on them after the fact. And I more recently poked around and found they've been dabbling with a generative art engine, which pretty much finished me with them.
The ads are gone
I'm still debating whether I keep using the software (I blocked internet for it at the firewall so it can't "phone home" in case they're pulling images to feed into that engine).
The Daz Loras are generated solely from Daz-owned store images, not gallery imags nor locally stored images.
SydneyInPeril posted Sat, 03 August 2024 at 7:09 AM
RHaseltine posted at 7:00 PM Fri, 2 August 2024 - #4487985
SydneyInPeril posted at 6:51 PM Fri, 2 August 2024 - #4487984I pretty much stopped going when they rolled out ads on the forum and gallery - I've had at least one friend there tell me that they basically started doing it without announcing it, and in response they pulled their gallery images down because they were based on a home tabletop game and they'd posted in good faith that it wouldn't get advertising placed on them after the fact. And I more recently poked around and found they've been dabbling with a generative art engine, which pretty much finished me with them.
The ads are gone
That's well and good. I've already left and don't really intend to come back for a while. My recommendation for the management over there is to make public announcements of changes like that in the future, on both the website and the forum, before they go live and blindside people. Especially the ones that smack heavily of "Number Go Up" revenue grabs like the Temu ads were.
There was no immediate indication where the training data was coming from, and given the way the Generative Image Engine thing really got traction you can understand where if there's no real immediately clickable announcement/press release about what it's being trained on, directly on the page indicating it's a thing available, that anyone who sees it immediately assumes the worst case scenario for what it's been trained on.I'm still debating whether I keep using the software (I blocked internet for it at the firewall so it can't "phone home" in case they're pulling images to feed into that engine).
The Daz Loras are generated solely from Daz-owned store images, not gallery imags nor locally stored images.
Needless to say, I don't plan on removing the internet block from the software if I continue using it, and I'm not planning on buying any more product from DAZ right now. Management is making some really poor decisions lately in what appears to be an attempt to grasp desperately at additional revenue streams, all of which are severely impacting the core customer experience, even if they seem like they shouldn't be having any impact from management's perspective.
RHaseltine posted Sat, 03 August 2024 at 3:34 PM
In fact daz was very clear that the images used were its own store images in their blogs and, as I recal, in the emails.
DarkElegance posted Sat, 03 August 2024 at 3:40 PM
SydneyInPeril posted at 6:51 PM Fri, 2 August 2024 - #4487984
I stopped posting complete in the galleries. Which is sad, as some beautiful artists post there. But the mentality of their moderators, the fact that "support"(we will use that term loosely) is just about non-existent(yes, I can say that, as I have open support tickets that have had no reply since last july), I have no interest in supporting it more than I have to. Again, which is sad, as some great artists have their products there.I pretty much stopped going when they rolled out ads on the forum and gallery - I've had at least one friend there tell me that they basically started doing it without announcing it, and in response they pulled their gallery images down because they were based on a home tabletop game and they'd posted in good faith that it wouldn't get advertising placed on them after the fact. And I more recently poked around and found they've been dabbling with a generative art engine, which pretty much finished me with them.
I'm still debating whether I keep using the software (I blocked internet for it at the firewall so it can't "phone home" in case they're pulling images to feed into that engine), switch back to Poser again (expensive upgrade for me now and requires abandoning content I've paid for), or even just abandon the whole thing 25 year old content archive and go back to sketchtablets and building my own 3D in Blender.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
SydneyInPeril posted Sun, 04 August 2024 at 9:48 PM
RHaseltine posted at 3:34 PM Sat, 3 August 2024 - #4488013
It should have said so on the page for the generative engine. Not in a blog (that not everyone will have read) or in emails (which not everyone will have received, I know I never got any).In fact daz was very clear that the images used were its own store images in their blogs and, as I recal, in the emails.
Basically, the indication of what the engine is trained on wasn't posted as visibly as it should have been. Hence, we have to make assumptions, and the assumption trained into us that it's being trained on whatever happens to be vacuumed up, whether it be from everywhere, or from all site posted content via changes to the TOS.
I will also comment that @DarkElegance has a view pretty close to my own. I like Studio over Poser. But my friend has had experiences regarding the mentality of the moderators when they pushed back on the advertising on the gallery thing, that they told me made it felt like they were being expected to couch 100% of their commentary in a very non-aggressive way or shut up, which caused them to delete all of their content in response and walk away from it.
DarkElegance posted Mon, 05 August 2024 at 6:48 PM
SydneyInPeril posted at 9:48 PM Sun, 4 August 2024 - #4488048
In regards to the moderators...OH BOY!RHaseltine posted at 3:34 PM Sat, 3 August 2024 - #4488013
It should have said so on the page for the generative engine. Not in a blog (that not everyone will have read) or in emails (which not everyone will have received, I know I never got any).In fact daz was very clear that the images used were its own store images in their blogs and, as I recal, in the emails.
Basically, the indication of what the engine is trained on wasn't posted as visibly as it should have been. Hence, we have to make assumptions, and the assumption trained into us that it's being trained on whatever happens to be vacuumed up, whether it be from everywhere, or from all site posted content via changes to the TOS.
I will also comment that @DarkElegance has a view pretty close to my own. I like Studio over Poser. But my friend has had experiences regarding the mentality of the moderators when they pushed back on the advertising on the gallery thing, that they told me made it felt like they were being expected to couch 100% of their commentary in a very non-aggressive way or shut up, which caused them to delete all of their content in response and walk away from it.
"Some companies will go after you, some wont" (In regard to IP rights and infringement)
I then stated
"It would depend on how close something looks"
THAT...got me warned, post removed and for a bit there “Moderated”.
(Btw, yes...I have the screenshots. Yes I still have all the emails in the exchanges.)
It was noted to me that "any insinuation that Daz is doing something wrong" is the issue.
But when I went through the TOS....nothing about what my post stated.
To which it was then put that it wasnt specifically noted, but that the moderator felt it was bad. (basic para-phrasing)
THAT...told me all I needed to know that when it comes to their customers...they are stone set that they are right no matter what, even when they are wrong.
Such as support tickets that are a year old. Yet they refuse to do anything. To fix it, to give the money back...anything.
You remotely question anything, you get censored..and censored hard.
So in that, I 100% agree with @SydneyInPeril.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
SydneyInPeril posted Mon, 05 August 2024 at 7:45 PM
I will also say, that having seen that, having heard about that, having watched DAZ scramble like a desperate junkie looking for their fix in the pursuit of revenue streams, I've been really not interested in spending a lot of money on the hobby. Granted, I have a lot of hobbies, so letting one lay fallow is never out of the question.
But it impacts my desire to even buy content here for the software. For either software.
Nevertrumper posted Tue, 06 August 2024 at 11:14 AM
In my experience, forum moderators are not your friends. They are to enforce forum and company rules, since in many ways the website owner can be made responsable for forum post.
Forum moderators also make sure, that no forum posts or threads are damaging the website owner's business model.
Just house rules.
So what do you expect?
You don't like DAZ moderation?
That's fine, you don't have to.
Just don't believe, it would be better here.
It isn't, neither at rotica or RenderHub.
DeviantArts is different as they don't seem to have an active moderation.
Instead you'll see MAGA fascist all over at DA in their forum threads.
Torquinox posted Tue, 06 August 2024 at 7:40 PM
SydneyInPeril posted at 9:48 PM Sun, 4 August 2024 - #4488048
So, there is a layer of reality that has been excluded from the conversation. Daz will say they "trained the AI with their own data" but that's only the top layer of data, the frosting. The underlying layer is made of stolen data, the same as every other AI generator out there. There are no ethical data training sets. They're all based on mass theft. That's because it takes billions of images and enormous volumes of text and enormous computing power to make the ai "smart enough" to do anything with the layer of frosting on top, the actual Daz data.RHaseltine posted at 3:34 PM Sat, 3 August 2024 - #4488013
It should have said so on the page for the generative engine. Not in a blog (that not everyone will have read) or in emails (which not everyone will have received, I know I never got any).In fact daz was very clear that the images used were its own store images in their blogs and, as I recal, in the emails.
Basically, the indication of what the engine is trained on wasn't posted as visibly as it should have been. Hence, we have to make assumptions, and the assumption trained into us that it's being trained on whatever happens to be vacuumed up, whether it be from everywhere, or from all site posted content via changes to the TOS.
I will also comment that @DarkElegance has a view pretty close to my own. I like Studio over Poser. But my friend has had experiences regarding the mentality of the moderators when they pushed back on the advertising on the gallery thing, that they told me made it felt like they were being expected to couch 100% of their commentary in a very non-aggressive way or shut up, which caused them to delete all of their content in response and walk away from it.
It all goes back to the Laion data sets. It's well documented that those are made of stolen data. Of course, you're not allowed to say "stolen data" on Daz site because it implies that some company did something wrong - Which of course all the AI companies did when they stole everything from everyone on the internet to train their AIs under the false auspices of research and fair use. Now the AI companies are making money off it and the AI industry has billions and billions of dollars being pumped into it. This apparently makes it all ok because we're all just little people dumb enough to share our work on the internet. So, it's ok to steal from us. And it is theft. When a company takes our work and incorporates it into their AI training data sets without our consent or compensation, that's theft. It was also ok to steal from famous artists and from Stephen King, too.
There are a few artists attempting lawsuits, but who knows how those will go? I do not expect much in the way of legal remedy. It is known that AIs have a habit of regurgitating parts of or entire works in its output. And it is known that earlier models are used as the starting point for later models, and it is pretty much impossible to remove the stolen works from the data set. So, once it's in there, it's in there.
Torquinox posted Tue, 06 August 2024 at 7:47 PM
And of course, Daz mods are obligated to delete posts like mine above from Daz site, so don't act surprised when words like mine get deleted. And it could happen here but maybe it won't?
To NeverTrumper, IME the mods here are a lot more tolerant than Daz site. Just look at my contributions to this thread and know that so far, my text remains unmolested. Yes, I once have had an issue with the mods here. It happened not long after I deleted my gallery. No, I did not actually get banned, though I did decide to take a lengthy break from the forums here Yes, it was about AI art, though the ultimate result of all that was far different here than it would have been on Daz site.
Yes, I agree moderators are not our friends as you stated. I have never been to forums on 'Rotica or Rhub - TBH, I've no reason to go to the forums there. I heartily recommend staying away from DA forums - It's a cesspool. Also, everyone I know of who got kicked off of DA got kicked off because they did something or said something that offended a forum mod; and that was pretty much it for them. The danger on DA is, admins and site volunteers participate in their forums, not just as mods but as participants. It's possible there is no more actual moderation there, but I haven't visited a DA forum for a long, long time.
Nevertrumper posted Wed, 07 August 2024 at 5:11 AM
Yes, it is :-DI heartily recommend staying away from DA forums - It's a cesspool.
SydneyInPeril posted Wed, 07 August 2024 at 8:03 AM
Nevertrumper posted at 11:14 AM Tue, 6 August 2024 - #4488106
I do get that. It's just frustrating that seems like even constructive criticism of DAZ, unless couched in the most milquetoast language, will get edited/deleted.In my experience, forum moderators are not your friends. They are to enforce forum and company rules, since in many ways the website owner can be made responsable for forum post.
Forum moderators also make sure, that no forum posts or threads are damaging the website owner's business model.
Just house rules.
So what do you expect?
You don't like DAZ moderation?
That's fine, you don't have to.
Just don't believe, it would be better here.
It isn't, neither at rotica or RenderHub.
DeviantArts is different as they don't seem to have an active moderation.
Instead you'll see MAGA fascist all over at DA in their forum threads.
And to be fair, I don't like spending my money with any business that runs their forum like that. DAZ is not an outlier in that regard.
SydneyInPeril posted Thu, 08 August 2024 at 9:02 AM
Torquinox posted at 7:40 PM Tue, 6 August 2024 - #4488114
So, there is a layer of reality that has been excluded from the conversation. Daz will say they "trained the AI with their own data" but that's only the top layer of data, the frosting. The underlying layer is made of stolen data, the same as every other AI generator out there. There are no ethical data training sets. They're all based on mass theft. That's because it takes billions of images and enormous volumes of text and enormous computing power to make the ai "smart enough" to do anything with the layer of frosting on top, the actual Daz data.That's the biggest frustration. There isn't a commitment to "delete it all and start over to placate the artists we screwed over", and anyone who thinks artists are "overpaid" are very much trying to jump on this and make it work - hell, anyone who thinks people are overpaid for anything are trying very very hard to jump on this and make it work.It all goes back to the Laion data sets. It's well documented that those are made of stolen data. Of course, you're not allowed to say "stolen data" on Daz site because it implies that some company did something wrong - Which of course all the AI companies did when they stole everything from everyone on the internet to train their AIs under the false auspices of research and fair use. Now the AI companies are making money off it and the AI industry has billions and billions of dollars being pumped into it. This apparently makes it all ok because we're all just little people dumb enough to share our work on the internet. So, it's ok to steal from us. And it is theft. When a company takes our work and incorporates it into their AI training data sets without our consent or compensation, that's theft. It was also ok to steal from famous artists and from Stephen King, too.
There are a few artists attempting lawsuits, but who knows how those will go? I do not expect much in the way of legal remedy. It is known that AIs have a habit of regurgitating parts of or entire works in its output. And it is known that earlier models are used as the starting point for later models, and it is pretty much impossible to remove the stolen works from the data set. So, once it's in there, it's in there.
It also shows how broken the entire copyright system is, since it pretty much is expecting the artists to go after the companies in court for enforcement, and otherwise is basically slanted in the direction of the biggest coffers. As long as the companies in question get to basically rake the internet, it takes away the biggest and best forms of advertisement from the artists because it's a serious risk to put anything on the internet because it will get fed into one of these engines without a lot of work to attempt to poison the input, and that only really works if enough artists agree to do the poisoning without so many doing it that all the engineers have to do is add a special case to inoculate against the poisoning. Granted, that was already a problem (just look at the art that gets downloaded and slapped on t-shirts!), but Generative Imagery Engines make the problem so much bigger because now an artist's style can be "emulated", and is much harder to point at in a court as a direct copyright violation.
Torquinox posted Thu, 08 August 2024 at 5:14 PM
@SydneyInPeril : Yes, totally agree with everything you said!
DarkElegance posted Thu, 08 August 2024 at 6:49 PM
Nevertrumper posted at 11:14 AM Tue, 6 August 2024 - #4488106
You are aware, that 1-forum mods are there to uphold the ToS of a site, they keep abuse down and to make sure that posts adhere to the conversation thread. They are not there to abuse their power or unnecessarily censor customers. And 2-they are not supposed to allow their personal preference interfere with what is and isnt expressed, as long as it is within the ToSIn my experience, forum moderators are not your friends. They are to enforce forum and company rules, since in many ways the website owner can be made responsable for forum post.
Forum moderators also make sure, that no forum posts or threads are damaging the website owner's business model.
Just house rules.
So what do you expect?
You don't like DAZ moderation?
That's fine, you don't have to.
Just don't believe, it would be better here.
It isn't, neither at rotica or RenderHub.
DeviantArts is different as they don't seem to have an active moderation.
Instead you'll see MAGA fascist all over at DA in their forum threads.
“Some companies will go after you and some wont” in regard to fan art/IP that is a red flag of the biggest kind.
If customers simply asking (what is their legal and ethical right) if they have the valid IP right to sell materials on a specific Movie/book set(because it is not clear), scares them and makes them delete a forum post...red flag!
If they allow their own personal likes and dislikes to favour certain members and censure others, that is not PROFESSIONAL.
I am a forum moderator on a chat site, and we are NOT allowed to “I dont like that member, so I am going to chase their post” behaviour.
We are not allowed to base a decision if a post is "ok” or not, on if we “like” the person or not. If it doesn't break the ToS, it doesn't get removed. Its that simple.
They are standing on the statement they are “one of the biggest 3d marketplaces online”. Then they should act like it!
They should respect when their customers do the “Hey, uhm, you sure it's OK to sell that”? and simply(and proudly) go “Yes! We have procured the licence for....” and be done with it. Ends all speculation, promotes further sales, and shows they are being very proactive in both respect for the companies and in their customers.
Do they?
No!
Do they freak out, and go ban happy when someone dares to ask?
YES.
That is a red flag. End of.
If you are going to be in the public as a marketplace, that is not the same as some wee, personal gallery site that is held by a fan.
That is stepping up to cover things like consumer rights and laws. To step up and accept there are going to be questions you should be prepared to answer. There are going to be things like “Hey you messed up on this advert” (when they do).
If they can not handle that, perhaps....they need to do abit of self reflecting!
As for DA...I have gone up and questioned their leniency on underage images MANY times. I have questioned and challenged their leniency on copyright infringement etc. I still have my account there and still question certain behaviours of theirs.
This is not a "Daz" specific issue.
The moderators at Daz allow their personal friendships, likes/dislikes to colour their decisions. They have an issue with anyone even daring to say the site may make a mistake. Not even out right, doing something wrong! But just a mistake!
That...shows a very shaking base on fairness and legality.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
DarkElegance posted Thu, 08 August 2024 at 6:55 PM
I agree completely!Torquinox posted at 7:40 PM Tue, 6 August 2024 - #4488114
So, there is a layer of reality that has been excluded from the conversation. Daz will say they "trained the AI with their own data" but that's only the top layer of data, the frosting. The underlying layer is made of stolen data, the same as every other AI generator out there. There are no ethical data training sets. They're all based on mass theft. That's because it takes billions of images and enormous volumes of text and enormous computing power to make the ai "smart enough" to do anything with the layer of frosting on top, the actual Daz data.That's the biggest frustration. There isn't a commitment to "delete it all and start over to placate the artists we screwed over", and anyone who thinks artists are "overpaid" are very much trying to jump on this and make it work - hell, anyone who thinks people are overpaid for anything are trying very very hard to jump on this and make it work.It all goes back to the Laion data sets. It's well documented that those are made of stolen data. Of course, you're not allowed to say "stolen data" on Daz site because it implies that some company did something wrong - Which of course all the AI companies did when they stole everything from everyone on the internet to train their AIs under the false auspices of research and fair use. Now the AI companies are making money off it and the AI industry has billions and billions of dollars being pumped into it. This apparently makes it all ok because we're all just little people dumb enough to share our work on the internet. So, it's ok to steal from us. And it is theft. When a company takes our work and incorporates it into their AI training data sets without our consent or compensation, that's theft. It was also ok to steal from famous artists and from Stephen King, too.
There are a few artists attempting lawsuits, but who knows how those will go? I do not expect much in the way of legal remedy. It is known that AIs have a habit of regurgitating parts of or entire works in its output. And it is known that earlier models are used as the starting point for later models, and it is pretty much impossible to remove the stolen works from the data set. So, once it's in there, it's in there.
It also shows how broken the entire copyright system is, since it pretty much is expecting the artists to go after the companies in court for enforcement, and otherwise is basically slanted in the direction of the biggest coffers. As long as the companies in question get to basically rake the internet, it takes away the biggest and best forms of advertisement from the artists because it's a serious risk to put anything on the internet because it will get fed into one of these engines without a lot of work to attempt to poison the input, and that only really works if enough artists agree to do the poisoning without so many doing it that all the engineers have to do is add a special case to inoculate against the poisoning. Granted, that was already a problem (just look at the art that gets downloaded and slapped on t-shirts!), but Generative Imagery Engines make the problem so much bigger because now an artist's style can be "emulated", and is much harder to point at in a court as a direct copyright violation.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
Torquinox posted Sat, 10 August 2024 at 8:56 AM
@DarkElegance Thank you :) I should probably read that article.
Nevertrumper posted Sun, 11 August 2024 at 3:51 AM
However:
Speaking your mind is not, what a forum is for. Not just the DAZ forums over there, but also here. Just got my post deleted.
Bejaymac posted Sun, 11 August 2024 at 7:19 AM
Main issue is that DAZ have a strict "no attacks" policy on the forums.
The company, it's staff, the forum staff, the content creaters and even the user base is covered by this.
So you can't heavilly crit them, slag them off, make them look bad, or even make them look stupid.
Before you ask, yep I've had thousands of posts deleted over there, and for all of the above, as a result I'm probably going to be one of a small group, who are "Pre Moderated" on a permanent basis.
DarkElegance posted Sun, 11 August 2024 at 1:25 PM
Can you tell me, if that is the principle, what the post:Main issue is that DAZ have a strict "no attacks" policy on the forums.
The company, it's staff, the forum staff, the content creaters and even the user base is covered by this.
So you can't heavilly crit them, slag them off, make them look bad, or even make them look stupid.
Before you ask, yep I've had thousands of posts deleted over there, and for all of the above, as a result I'm probably going to be one of a small group, who are "Pre Moderated" on a permanent basis.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
DarkElegance posted Sun, 11 August 2024 at 1:34 PM
There are a few articles out on it. It's due to the fact that genAI gets its “materials” from the web. What is posted, to "learn" from. But as the web gets saturated with AI gen images and text, it starts “learning” from that genAI material. Causing issues with the outputs. It literally is “eating itself”. (I believe popular mechanic has an article on the text AI and it's starting to have issues in regard to this)@DarkElegance Thank you :) I should probably read that article.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
Nevertrumper posted Sun, 11 August 2024 at 2:12 PM
That is in fact a good thing.Main issue is that DAZ have a strict "no attacks" policy on the forums.
The company, it's staff, the forum staff, the content creaters and even the user base is covered by this.
So you can't heavilly crit them, slag them off, make them look bad, or even make them look stupid.
Before you ask, yep I've had thousands of posts deleted over there, and for all of the above, as a result I'm probably going to be one of a small group, who are "Pre Moderated" on a permanent basis.
gohanf22 posted Thu, 15 August 2024 at 7:23 AM
DAZ is desperate at this point to try to make ANY MONEY they can from this DEBACLE of a Genesis model that pushed more "the message" than actually having both meshes stay separate as they should've stayed. Like you can't even use geografts well at all on gen 9. It is the most SCREWED UP model to date, and not only that, they are selling stuff from IPs in hoping they can get gullible people to buy them to make any sort of revenue.
I'm just waiting for the announcement at this point of Gen 10 and the Female and Male meshes going back to being separate and this gen being forgotten like the Dodo...
DeeceyArt posted Thu, 15 August 2024 at 11:02 AM
I don't see Genesis 9 as a "debacle" at all. Does it have issues? Yes, but so does any other figure out there. My main complaint about G9 is that they have now separated the high definition versions out from the base model.
And the bundle stacking and pricing is a great concern. The number of posts that people make about how cheaply they got stuff is pretty depressing. The more everyone looks for bargain basement prices, the less you will see content creators making things for figures, because it will no longer be worth the many hours that are put into making content. "Biting the hand that feeds you" is a saying that comes to mind.
Torquinox posted Thu, 15 August 2024 at 12:23 PM
DarkElegance posted at 1:34 PM Sun, 11 August 2024 - #4488312
Torquinox posted at 8:56 AM Sat, 10 August 2024 - #4488271Yes, I have read other articles about that. That's a problem for the AI companies - It's what they deserve. They deserve much worse, but when their generators collapse from eating too much of their own output, that will at least be a start.There are a few articles out on it. It's due to the fact that genAI gets its “materials” from the web. What is posted, to "learn" from. But as the web gets saturated with AI gen images and text, it starts “learning” from that genAI material. Causing issues with the outputs. It literally is “eating itself”. (I believe popular mechanic has an article on the text AI and it's starting to have issues in regard to this)@DarkElegance Thank you :) I should probably read that article.
They have done studies that show that with a "limited training field" for GenAI, it gets…well…corrupted.
So if Daz is claiming its AI engine is only, trained on its own images, it should then start “eating itself” faster than one of the big web-wide genAI engines.
Perhaps if those companies were more ethical in their approach to our work, I would feel more kindly toward them and their generated images. As it is, they ripped off all of us and patted themselves on the back for their brazen theft. And other big companies, grateful for the ill-gotten gain, sent those companies a lot of money - Not us, just the thieving AI companies that benefited from our work - As if being an artist isn't already hard enough.
Torquinox posted Thu, 15 August 2024 at 12:27 PM
Not sure why geografts would be a problem. The mesh is a perfectly regular grid, should be no problem to use that as an attachment point. Well-known creator RawArt states the G9 base is excellent for geografting. Also, generalized statements on revenue generated at any site are guesses at best - We have no idea what their revenues look like.DAZ is desperate at this point to try to make ANY MONEY they can from this DEBACLE of a Genesis model that pushed more "the message" than actually having both meshes stay separate as they should've stayed. Like you can't even use geografts well at all on gen 9. It is the most SCREWED UP model to date, and not only that, they are selling stuff from IPs in hoping they can get gullible people to buy them to make any sort of revenue.
I'm just waiting for the announcement at this point of Gen 10 and the Female and Male meshes going back to being separate and this gen being forgotten like the Dodo...
Torquinox posted Thu, 15 August 2024 at 12:30 PM
As far as pricing goes, we as customers have been conditioned by the sales run on the content sites to expect certain discounts - We know those are possible and the companies must be okay doing that or the discounts would not exist. I will observe, at Daz site, the best discounts are on DO items - Daz paid the artists for their work and can resell the work in perpetuity at whatever price Daz likes.
Torquinox posted Thu, 15 August 2024 at 12:36 PM
Here, the discounts used to be a lot better, and rPub, the company store, is actually one of the stingiest vendors in the marketplace. That's my opinion. Other vendors can do what they like, but it is unlikely anyone will pay $7 for a decade-old V4 outfit. It's crazy talk when compared to pricing at Daz store. Here, I only buy the items that I want most. THere is no impulse buying. And prices at any store are not comparable to pricing at 'Rotica, because the merch there is specialized - You want it or you don't. I've found RHub has some serious quality control problems and often surprisingly high prices - Buying anything there is a crap shoot. Thus, I buy very little there. So, that's how all that goes. And that does not say anything for the glob of people who won;t shop anywhere except the Daz site.
DeeceyArt posted Thu, 15 August 2024 at 12:47 PM
Torquinox posted at 12:30 PM Thu, 15 August 2024 - #4488398
Not all the time. I have the nasty habit of creating large sets (5 or more pieces). And I've invested in most of the G9 DAZ Original figures so that I can make sure that the clothing works well on every DO figure for G9. So there is a significant investment in time and money. The first week of sales is usually the best week, and there were very deep discounts applied to a product I had in my own store (not a DO product) that sold multiple copies for under 2 dollars. When 2-4 weeks of work results in under 200 dollars in sales, it really puts a damper on the passion of it all. I've cut back substantially on purchases and content creation since then.As far as pricing goes, we as customers have been conditioned by the sales run on the content sites to expect certain discounts - We know those are possible and the companies must be okay doing that or the discounts would not exist. I will observe, at Daz site, the best discounts are on DO items - Daz paid the artists for their work and can resell the work in perpetuity at whatever price Daz likes.
It's another form of "as if being an artist is already hard enough." That's what I meant by "biting the hand that feeds you." I've been so discouraged by it all that the passion is just gone. It done flew the coop. And I'm probably not alone in feeling that way. 8-)
Torquinox posted Thu, 15 August 2024 at 2:13 PM
Not all the time. I have the nasty habit of creating large sets (5 or more pieces). And I've invested in most of the G9 DAZ Original figures so that I can make sure that the clothing works well on every DO figure for G9. So there is a significant investment in time and money. The first week of sales is usually the best week, and there were very deep discounts applied to a product I had in my own store (not a DO product) that sold multiple copies for under 2 dollars. When 2-4 weeks of work results in under 200 dollars in sales, it really puts a damper on the passion of it all. I've cut back substantially on purchases and content creation since then.Thanks for sharing that. Sounds awful! You definitely need good pay to keep the motivation and to make it worthwhile to do the work. I'll keep that in mind.It's another form of "as if being an artist is already hard enough." That's what I meant by "biting the hand that feeds you." I've been so discouraged by it all that the passion is just gone. It done flew the coop. And I'm probably not alone in feeling that way. 8-)
DeeceyArt posted Thu, 15 August 2024 at 4:57 PM
DeeceyArt posted at 12:47 PM Thu, 15 August 2024 - #4488400It is what it is. It's a tough economy. There's no easy solution that would make everyone happy. So I waved the white flag and just make stuff for myself.Not all the time. I have the nasty habit of creating large sets (5 or more pieces). And I've invested in most of the G9 DAZ Original figures so that I can make sure that the clothing works well on every DO figure for G9. So there is a significant investment in time and money. The first week of sales is usually the best week, and there were very deep discounts applied to a product I had in my own store (not a DO product) that sold multiple copies for under 2 dollars. When 2-4 weeks of work results in under 200 dollars in sales, it really puts a damper on the passion of it all. I've cut back substantially on purchases and content creation since then.Thanks for sharing that. Sounds awful! You definitely need good pay to keep the motivation and to make it worthwhile to do the work. I'll keep that in mind.It's another form of "as if being an artist is already hard enough." That's what I meant by "biting the hand that feeds you." I've been so discouraged by it all that the passion is just gone. It done flew the coop. And I'm probably not alone in feeling that way. 8-)
Torquinox posted Thu, 15 August 2024 at 9:06 PM
It is what it is. It's a tough economy. There's no easy solution that would make everyone happy. So I waved the white flag and just make stuff for myself.That's a healthy enough response. It's unfortunate. From what I can see, you do good work!
DarkElegance posted Sat, 17 August 2024 at 1:47 AM
While pricing is getting steep, the one thing I dont really do is complain about the price of good items.I don't see Genesis 9 as a "debacle" at all. Does it have issues? Yes, but so does any other figure out there. My main complaint about G9 is that they have now separated the high definition versions out from the base model.
And the bundle stacking and pricing is a great concern. The number of posts that people make about how cheaply they got stuff is pretty depressing. The more everyone looks for bargain basement prices, the less you will see content creators making things for figures, because it will no longer be worth the many hours that are put into making content. "Biting the hand that feeds you" is a saying that comes to mind.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/