JAG opened this issue on Nov 17, 2020 · 144 posts
JAG posted Tue, 17 November 2020 at 8:40 PM
I just ended an email conversation with Charles (Nerd3D) and was informed that Bondware has removed DSON compatibility with Poser 12. That's right. None of your DSON imported figures or even figures reworked but using DAZ bases will now work in Poser. It's apparently not an error or bug or glitch or python issue. No, they just apparently took away compatibility. It worked perfectly with 11.3 and past versions.
Charles said specifically, "DSON will not work in P12 so it's kind of moot any way."
Nothing in technical reason would require it to be disabled in 12. It's a script that runs in conjunction with Poser. If they're building on the same software, it would not inherently "lose" capability if it had it previously. That only occurs by intentional program alteration - aka, removed intentionally. Glad I saved my money and didn't buy this new upgrade. I'm not dumping my entire DSON library for it. This is just ludicrous. Who's brilliant idea was this? If they can't use DAZ figures and props, then they'll have to come buy Bondware stuff? Yeah! Cha-ching! Or so the thinking probably went. But in reality probably 90% of us have at least got Victoria 4 in our runtimes so we know the superior figures and clothing originate with DAZ. We all know their business model sucks and they're overpriced and Studio is mind-numbing to work with...but their stuff was top-notch. But I used it in Poser. POSER. Not DAZ studio. To me this is the equivalent of suicide for Poser. I'm done. Heck I was still using 10 anyway because I was still not happy with 11 or with the theft of my PoserPro2014 upgrade that I paid for. But this was it. I'm done. No DSON - no selling me Poser or your Poser related products.
Bring back DSON! What were you thinking?!?!?!?
ghostship2 posted Tue, 17 November 2020 at 8:54 PM
Dude, it's not secret conspiracy to kill Daz figures in Poser. DSON is a...PYTHON 2 SCRIPT OWNED BY DAZ3D. Poser is moving on to...PYTHON3. If you want to complain to someone it might be DAZ3D or the folks who make python. Daz34d probably doesn't give a rats ass about DSON and would rather you use DS. You want to do that?
All the Generation 4 ( and Generation 3) figures still work and DO NOT REQUIRE PYTHON OR DSON TO WORK.
W10, Ryzen 5 1600x, 16Gb,RTX2060Super+GTX980, PP11, 11.3.740
randym77 posted Tue, 17 November 2020 at 9:06 PM
No, the problem is that Poser 12 uses a new version of Python. It wasn't just DSON. All the Python scripts have issues with the new Poser (though some are easier to fix than others).
Bondware is trying to update some scripts, and some people who wrote their own are fixing them. But DSON is DAZ's. If it's going to be fixed, they have to do it, and they are no longer updating DSON.
It's not a secret.
https://www.posersoftware.com/article/469/how-poser-python-and-dson-work-together
JAG posted Tue, 17 November 2020 at 11:08 PM
ghostship2 posted at 10:46PM Tue, 17 November 2020 - #4404949
Dude, it's not secret conspiracy to kill Daz figures in Poser. DSON is a...PYTHON 2 SCRIPT OWNED BY DAZ3D. Poser is moving on to...PYTHON3. If you want to complain to someone it might be DAZ3D or the folks who make python. Daz34d probably doesn't give a rats ass about DSON and would rather you use DS. You want to do that?
All the Generation 4 ( and Generation 3) figures still work and DO NOT REQUIRE PYTHON OR DSON TO WORK.
Well until this point I sort of respected you but clearly not. The Python point is not at hand. The point is that Bondware changed to P3 coding knowing full well they would not only kill most of the P2 programs and plugins. Clearly they knew there were compatibility issues and clearly they were aware DSON would be a victim. As my discussion with Mr. Taylor proved - they clearly didn't care that they were alienating and cutting off the hand that feeds them. Sadly the Vic4Mike4 figures still look more real than the current Poser Franken-figures. But you don't rip out the ability that half of your customer base uses. Why would you do that? Think about...hypothesize that you own Poser software and you know that possibly up to 50% of your customers are using DAZ figures in your program. Would you cut them off? 25%? 10%? Sure new python might be cool and better but do you adopt and harm your customer base? Only an idiot does that. The smarter idiot tries to find a work-around to get both. No they can't rewrite DSON but they could have worked with DAZ to update it. I'm sure DAZ doesn't want their Poser using customers lost either. It would behoove them. But this situation shows me just how unwanted and how unconcerned Bondware (like Smith) is with what hardcore and old-*ss users like me expect and want. This is why the program is all but dead. I shall speculate that unless serious changes are made, there won't be a Poser 13. They're alienating their base - the people who have lined up for the updates year after year. I began with Poser 2.0 with Meta Creations. I've been in line with cash until 11. 11 I would not buy because it was terrible. Clearly I wasn't the only one or Smith wouldn't have strangled the program...they planned on killing it until Bondware stepped in. Smith was done with it. Lost more than they made. I was part of the beta team at that point and I wailed like other members did about what was being done and not done. This same software-killing direction they took with 11 continues with Bondware. They're just slinging around a corpse of a program at this point. And I love Poser. I live for it and I'm not a Poser hater - I'm just the opposite - I want this program to survive and continue on but like so many others I'm watching it be run into the ground. I gotta say something at this point. Dropping DSON is stupid. I don't care what argument you make, you shouldn't have released without some sort of DSON compatibility. I won't buy it and others aren't going to either because of our immense DAZ libraries that require DSON. You're shoving us off onto DAZ Studio, Bondware...you do realize that right??? And we don't wanna go. Take our DSON and we have no choice. Think on that.
555MMar posted Tue, 17 November 2020 at 11:18 PM
Python 2 is no longer supported and is considered obsolete. There are no longer any updates or security patches planned for Python 2, as it has officially reached its end of life. You can read here why https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/
Bondware couldn't really do anything about it.
ghostship2 posted Tue, 17 November 2020 at 11:41 PM
@JAG I'm an old timer just like you. I've been using Poser since version 1 on my old Mac Quadra 660AV. I'd like to point out that you have no idea how many people actually use Genesis figures in Poser. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about it. Get mad at DAZ3D or nag them to update DSON cause you are barking up the wrong tree.
W10, Ryzen 5 1600x, 16Gb,RTX2060Super+GTX980, PP11, 11.3.740
TheAnimaGemini posted Tue, 17 November 2020 at 11:43 PM
@JAG As former Poser Beta tester you should know that the DSON script is owned by DAZ and that Smith Micro, now Bondware could/can not legally update it by their own. The move from Python 2 to 3 was absolute necessary . Python 2 is not longer supported , no security patches, no updates. Poser can not stay forever in the past and use outdated scripts, codes because some people have problems to move in the 21 century . Get over it.
La vie est éternelle. L'amour est immortel.
“Dwell on the beauty of life. Watch the stars, and see yourself running with them.”
―
randym77 posted Tue, 17 November 2020 at 11:58 PM
They had no choice. They held off updating Poser's version of Python as long as possible, but its end of life date is 2020. As with Adobe Flash, the end is nigh. They were forced to update, and that meant breaking all the old scripts, including DSON. They did not want to do this. There's a lot of scripts besides DSON that are affected.
DAZ is the only one who can fix this, and they're clearly not interested. They haven't updated DSON in ten years. It doesn't work with any figures past Genesis 2, which suggests they really aren't getting a lot of money from Poser users. Or Poser users have figured out other ways than DSON.
JAG posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 4:49 AM
TheAnimaGemini posted at 4:44AM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4404965
@JAG As former Poser Beta tester you should know that the DSON script is owned by DAZ and that Smith Micro, now Bondware could/can not legally update it by their own. The move from Python 2 to 3 was absolute necessary . Python 2 is not longer supported , no security patches, no updates. Poser can not stay forever in the past and use outdated scripts, codes because some people have problems to move in the 21 century . Get over it.
Wow, why don't you just call me "boomer" while you're at it. Don't pop an attitude with me. I haven't had two words with you. You jumped into this discussion thread and proceed to A - lecture me and B - pop an attitude? Who are you anyway? If you'd read the whole thread you'd have noted that I stated quite clearly that I know DSON is DAZ proprietary and I didn't ask Bondware to alter it. You're a dimwit who doesn't read evidently. What I asked or rather curtly demanded, was that they not remove compatibility or at least negotiate with DAZ to put out a new version that is P3 compatible. C'mon man (to quote Biden) cutting off DSON hurts both DAZ (who gain from selling more figures and clothing and props) and Bondware who can't afford to lose more users of their software. This "Get over it," mentality you're spouting is exactly why Smith doesn't own Poser any longer. They lost money on 11. Why don't you "DEAL WITH THAT," and therefore admit by default that this why Bondware now has it and that following the same exact business path is going to lead to the same dead end.
So quite kindly butt out of a conversation you're not intellectually compatible enough with to discuss. If you can't read my entire post, don't bother commenting. Get over it indeed. What childish nonsense. Why don't you pop out with the rubber and glue while you're at it.
JAG posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 4:57 AM
randym77 posted at 4:50AM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4404966
They had no choice. They held off updating Poser's version of Python as long as possible, but its end of life date is 2020. As with Adobe Flash, the end is nigh. They were forced to update, and that meant breaking all the old scripts, including DSON. They did not want to do this. There's a lot of scripts besides DSON that are affected.
DAZ is the only one who can fix this, and they're clearly not interested. They haven't updated DSON in ten years. It doesn't work with any figures past Genesis 2, which suggests they really aren't getting a lot of money from Poser users. Or Poser users have figured out other ways than DSON.
I thank you for the input but you are completely wrong. DSON works right on up to Gen8 figures. I know - I use them daily. They have updated DSON in the last few years and I'm using the most recent version with DAZStudio 4. Not sure where you came up with that. And they do stand to lose a lot because I'm not the only one who still uses DSON. Again, we'll see. I give Poser another two years at best. The whole reason I suspect they've released this half-hearted 12 is to generate funds to keep the project afloat. Meaning 11.3 sales died on the shelf. The program is all but done not do to users or love but due to clear mismanagement over the last 8 years. We'll see in a year or two whether I'm a crazy, old, ranting boomer or not. I predicted the crash for 11 and I am on record with the Beta team having warned them about it all. So unless you've got experience with this software dating back to the mid-1990's, I suggest you all keep your opines to yourself and stop telling me to get over it. When this software crashes and burns as it nearly did with Smith, and your software stops working and you're out the money and tool...the laughter you hear in the back of your mind will be the memory of me warning you all. Crash and burn coming.
Find a way to save DAZ compatibility or all will be sad.
JAG posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 5:00 AM
ghostship2 posted at 4:58AM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4404964
@JAG I'm an old timer just like you. I've been using Poser since version 1 on my old Mac Quadra 660AV. I'd like to point out that you have no idea how many people actually use Genesis figures in Poser. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about it. Get mad at DAZ3D or nag them to update DSON cause you are barking up the wrong tree.
I've already barked at DAZ about it. But as you know DAZ vs. Poser is a death match for both companies. DSON was the last vestige of cooperation between them. As for how many DAZ figure users there are? Go run a search in the forum for Genesis and see. Bondware could run a poll but I doubt they'd like the results.
TheAnimaGemini posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 5:40 AM
JAG posted at 5:29AM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4404976
TheAnimaGemini posted at 4:44AM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4404965
@JAG As former Poser Beta tester you should know that the DSON script is owned by DAZ and that Smith Micro, now Bondware could/can not legally update it by their own. The move from Python 2 to 3 was absolute necessary . Python 2 is not longer supported , no security patches, no updates. Poser can not stay forever in the past and use outdated scripts, codes because some people have problems to move in the 21 century . Get over it.
Wow, why don't you just call me "boomer" while you're at it. Don't pop an attitude with me. I haven't had two words with you. You jumped into this discussion thread and proceed to A - lecture me and B - pop an attitude? Who are you anyway? If you'd read the whole thread you'd have noted that I stated quite clearly that I know DSON is DAZ proprietary and I didn't ask Bondware to alter it. You're a dimwit who doesn't read evidently. What I asked or rather curtly demanded, was that they not remove compatibility or at least negotiate with DAZ to put out a new version that is P3 compatible. C'mon man (to quote Biden) cutting off DSON hurts both DAZ (who gain from selling more figures and clothing and props) and Bondware who can't afford to lose more users of their software. This "Get over it," mentality you're spouting is exactly why Smith doesn't own Poser any longer. They lost money on 11. Why don't you "DEAL WITH THAT," and therefore admit by default that this why Bondware now has it and that following the same exact business path is going to lead to the same dead end.
So quite kindly butt out of a conversation you're not intellectually compatible enough with to discuss. If you can't read my entire post, don't bother commenting. Get over it indeed. What childish nonsense. Why don't you pop out with the rubber and glue while you're at it.
So you call my behavior "attitude" and "childish". While you insult others as "intellectual not compatible with you? Who are you that you can call out others here? This is a public forum, I can answer when ever i want, don't need you permission for that. You open a new thread like fury , call Bondware "Idiots" ,make a lot of nonsense rants and call others trolls? People explained it here in the forums several times, in different threads why DSON does not work in Poser 12. But looks like you still not understand it.
You see people like you can not offend me, because i don't give a sh...what they think about me. Move along with you anti social behavior.
La vie est éternelle. L'amour est immortel.
“Dwell on the beauty of life. Watch the stars, and see yourself running with them.”
―
wolf359 posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 6:43 AM
DAZ is the only one who can fix this, and they're clearly >not >interested. They haven't >updated DSON in ten years.
There is no reason for Daz to update something that ,for the last decade, has been an unmitigated,embarrasing FAILURE?
According to thier own Bluster,put forth when the original Gensis was introduced ,DSON was intended to be a universal spec that would enable the CG professionals in the Autodesk,Maxon, MODO etc communities to implement the genesis figure in their eco systems.
The Reality is that None of the CG pros actually cared about genesis and chose the stay with figure rigs already purpose built for their Character eco systems.?
Even Reallusion Chose FBX over "DSON" for their import/conversion of Daz genesis figures back in the Iclone 5.5-6.5 era
Even today, with Iclone 7x and CC3 ,we only use FBX to import and shape project any Mill4 - G8 figure/character onto an Iclone native base Avatar for full compabilty with our SUPERIOR Character animation system as well as our universal cloth rigging and Game asset export tools.
Daz's recently released Genesis export plugins to the major 3DCC apps & game engines that were either bought/co-opted from third parties and re-branded.
or cobbled by Daz's internal dev team, all without any dependency on thier failed "DSON" Spec by the target applications.
"DSON" has not been killed as it was already dead.?
Bondware is trying to move poser forward, and in so doing, has decided to leave old, dead,failed features( Face room ,walk designer etc) in the crumbling caves of the past to prevent poser itself from suffering a similar fate.?
randym77 posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 7:02 AM
It does seem like FBX is the path both DAZ and Poser have chosen for the future. Maybe we can hope for improvements on that front.
structure posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 8:29 AM Forum Coordinator
the reason that support for Python 2 was ended; is that python 2 reached its EOL on January 1, 2020.
Complaints about DSON can be directed to DAZ where they belong since they wrote and own the software. Complaining about it here will do you no good, nothing will be resolved. If you want it to work with poser 12, you need to find someone who is willing to convert it.
Locked Out
prixat posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 10:26 AM
I was hoping that FBX development (both importing and exporting) would have been much further along than it is.
My workflow in and out of Cinema is almost entirely FBX based. It makes much more sense to export a single FBX file; and try and get that same file into Poser or Studio.
p.s. I think DSON is just the name of the current Studio format. It's not a sign of failure that third party programs do not create an importer from that published file-format! for example there are few programs with a Cinema 4D importer.
regards
prixat
adp001 posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 12:01 PM
"Where there is a will, there is a way".
A DAZ Genesis Importer is not a witchcraft. There are several approaches (Python source) on the net how to import DAZ files, e.g. to Blender. Not ancient code, but up-to-date for Blender 2.8/9. Not from any big software companies, but from private people as a solo project.
Adapting this for Poser shouldn't be a problem for someone who is familiar with Poser. Bondware can't talk their way out of this but should admit that they don't want a Genesis importer.
The Poser fan community obviously can't come up with people who have enough knowledge. Meanwhile they have all left or are on the way.
wolf359 posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 2:29 PM
It's not a sign of failure that third party programs do not >create an importer from that published file-format! for example >there are few programs with a Cinema 4D importer.
regards prixat
Maxon, Autodesk etc makes money selling(now renting) an entire 3DCC application.
NOT selling canned content for base figures that come with the program.
One does not need a "Cinema 4D importer" because ,like Blender,Maya,Max one can create content in C4D and export it to industry standard formats Like FBX.obj,Alembic
From the perpective of the Daz business model it is a huge failure that only some small number of poser users remain fixated on importing the genesis figures for various reasons.
Daz depends one people getting excited about those lovely Genesis Figures and then flocking to the Daz commercial store to buy content for them.
This did not really happen ,in any major way, in the Professional CG ,film &Gaming communities because they prefer to work within thier Custom Character eco-systems without having to muck about with kiddie toys Like Daz studio to get a genesis figure into their professional 3DCC pipelines via some 'DSON" format.
Particularly in light of the fact that Genesis needs to be connected to its massive Daz studio Data folder for its full functionality and Daz studio installations are NOT scalable for large team projects that Game/ film company pipelines require.
Iuvenis_Scriptor posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 3:36 PM
For anyone who's interested, here's a thread specifically for discussing potential solutions.
JAG posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 7:58 PM
TheAnimaGemini posted at 7:35PM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4404982
JAG posted at 5:29AM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4404976
TheAnimaGemini posted at 4:44AM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4404965
@JAG As former Poser Beta tester you should know that the DSON script is owned by DAZ and that Smith Micro, now Bondware could/can not legally update it by their own. The move from Python 2 to 3 was absolute necessary . Python 2 is not longer supported , no security patches, no updates. Poser can not stay forever in the past and use outdated scripts, codes because some people have problems to move in the 21 century . Get over it.
Wow, why don't you just call me "boomer" while you're at it. Don't pop an attitude with me. I haven't had two words with you. You jumped into this discussion thread and proceed to A - lecture me and B - pop an attitude? Who are you anyway? If you'd read the whole thread you'd have noted that I stated quite clearly that I know DSON is DAZ proprietary and I didn't ask Bondware to alter it. You're a dimwit who doesn't read evidently. What I asked or rather curtly demanded, was that they not remove compatibility or at least negotiate with DAZ to put out a new version that is P3 compatible. C'mon man (to quote Biden) cutting off DSON hurts both DAZ (who gain from selling more figures and clothing and props) and Bondware who can't afford to lose more users of their software. This "Get over it," mentality you're spouting is exactly why Smith doesn't own Poser any longer. They lost money on 11. Why don't you "DEAL WITH THAT," and therefore admit by default that this why Bondware now has it and that following the same exact business path is going to lead to the same dead end.
So quite kindly butt out of a conversation you're not intellectually compatible enough with to discuss. If you can't read my entire post, don't bother commenting. Get over it indeed. What childish nonsense. Why don't you pop out with the rubber and glue while you're at it.
So you call my behavior "attitude" and "childish". While you insult others as "intellectual not compatible with you? Who are you that you can call out others here?
This is a public forum, I can answer when ever i want, don't need you permission for that. You open a new thread like fury , call Bondware "Idiots" ,make a lot of nonsense rants and call others trolls? People explained it here in the forums several times, in different threads why DSON does not work in Poser 12. But looks like you still not understand it.
You see people like you can not offend me, because i don't give a sh...what they think about me.
Move along with you anti social behavior.
**First off I called no one an idiot. I was speaking in a rhetorical sense with regard to things only "idiots" do. Go back to elementary school and try to learn proper English usage and comprehension. At no point did I ever say Bondware were idiots. Where I come from (the United States of America) we are - for now at least - still allowed to express our opinion openly with regard to what we think people affecting our work and daily lives are doing. Unlike you - I depend on Poser to do my job every single day. I am partially disabled and I have to work from home so I am dependent on what I can do with 3D to get a pay check. So tell me - does Poser relate directly to your livelihood for the last decade and half? Hmm? Speak up...I didn't hear that? So that's where I speak from a position of authority. I also spent time as a beta tester with Smith and I have held a somewhat tenuous communication line with Charles for over half a decade now. But I do not need to prove any of that to you. It was you who started the childish and anti-social bashing by informing me to move into the 21st century and "get over it." That was rude and insulting...and directly at me personally. You were trying to insult me. You were being arrogant. I called you out for it and now you're throwing a tantrum about it. Again, acting out like a child. Learn to speak to people like an adult and you won't get intellectually spanked like the little brat that you are. Your hostility does not intimidate me. I was likely using Poser when you were still in diapers. I owned stock in Meta Creations. I was part of Poser's development (via financial stake) from the 1990's. Again, I don't need to prove nor explain any of that but I just like hearing the sound of crickets chirping when it's your turn to reply.
Were you bothering to read the posts, I've already stated I know DSON is a python 2.0 script owned and facilitated by DAZ. I never said it wasn't. But by disabling the plugin by moving to P3, Bondware is dumping every single DAZ product user they have who use Poser. And quite honestly that number is going to be detrimental to their bottom line - one that is already suffering. Therefore the matter seems idiotic to me. When you need money, you don't cut off customers. And yes, yes, Python 3 is the newest, shiniest new thing on the block - ewww, very distinguished looking - but guess what...Python 2.0 still works on all platforms meaning it wasn't an absolute "no option" decision. Bondware chose to move into P3 and intentionally crashed every plugin existing for Poser and also alienating DAZ users at the same time. Does that sound smart? The thing to do would have been to either negotiate a plan with DAZ to upgrade DSON --- OR --- to find a work-around to the Python 2 and 3 issue. To my understanding (and I am no programmer) the backwards compatibility issue has been severely harmful across the spectrum of software development. I suspect compatibility patches will be forthcoming. Meaning if they'd have just delayed changes - a backwards compatible version of 3 might have been developed. This jumping on the tech-bandwagon just because something looks cool and is new - is what killed Poser 11 to start with. So much time and problem associated with Superfly development which up-ended Poser's development was the start of the downfall. Octane already had a Poser plugin that was pretty tight. Poser could have used better Firefly adding caustics and such. Two engines was dumb. Improve the one you had - don't go add in another one that sucks. But ewww...we needs a fancy new render engine! No, you needed to add new abilities to the one you had - the one that everyone was used to, had paid for for two decades, and used the hell out of. No Firefly ain't all that, but it was tight and fast. It can do many things and with some additions, it would have been fantastic. But let's just forget about it start something new that ruins everyone's material settings for the next three years. Do you see? No you probably don't because you haven't spent 25 years working with this program daily.
As for your opinion - you have a right to it and to express it - but keep in mind that we don't have to listen to it. You are not the only person with rights. We all have rights and that means my opinion is just as important as you think yours is...except mine comes tied to a 25 year long investment in and experience with Poser software. I think that makes my opinion just a tiny bit more special than yours. I also don't talk to people like they're an idiot right off the bat. So kindly go "get over it" yourself. But please, snap back with some more insipid remarks or "boomer" type commentary. It will only prove my point for me. So please...go for it. I encourage your attempts to belittle me and make yourself feel intelligent and important. I really do care about how you feel in this matter.
:0)
JAG posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 8:09 PM
wolf359 posted at 8:00PM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4404991
DAZ is the only one who can fix this, and they're clearly >not >interested. They haven't >updated DSON in ten years.
There is no reason for Daz to update something that ,for the last decade, has been an unmitigated,embarrasing FAILURE?
According to thier own Bluster,put forth when the original Gensis was introduced ,DSON was intended to be a universal spec that would enable the CG professionals in the Autodesk,Maxon, MODO etc communities to implement the genesis figure in their eco systems.
The Reality is that None of the CG pros actually cared about genesis and chose the stay with figure rigs already purpose built for their Character eco systems.?
Even Reallusion Chose FBX over "DSON" for their import/conversion of Daz genesis figures back in the Iclone 5.5-6.5 era
Even today, with Iclone 7x and CC3 ,we only use FBX to import and shape project any Mill4 - G8 figure/character onto an Iclone native base Avatar for full compabilty with our SUPERIOR Character animation system as well as our universal cloth rigging and Game asset export tools.
Daz's recently released Genesis export plugins to the major 3DCC apps & game engines that were either bought/co-opted from third parties and re-branded.
or cobbled by Daz's internal dev team, all without any dependency on thier failed "DSON" Spec by the target applications.
"DSON" has not been killed as it was already dead.?
Bondware is trying to move poser forward, and in so doing, has decided to leave old, dead,failed features( Face room ,walk designer etc) in the crumbling caves of the past to prevent poser itself from suffering a similar fate.?
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were Mr. DAZ. While I've got you - thanks for building the best figures and props for Poser over the last two decades. I know you guys started out just making content for Poser and I realize your own freeware is...well...free for a reason (nobody would pay for it) and I know it's a business gimmick to get people to buy overpriced content - but I also know that myself and many others worldwide still utilize your stuff in Poser and have for twenty years now. So thank you for making a plugin just for us in order to not lose us as valued customers. The fact that you made DSON to start with proves you know how many customers you have using Poser still.I would implore you to make a Python 3.0 version just to spite Bondware perhaps.
Oh wait...you're not Mr. DAZ? Dang, the way you were talking about knowing all their corporate in's and out's I had just assumed. My bad. If you're an Iclone user then clearly you are aware that the company went out of their way and produced special plugins that allow for the incorporation of Genesis 8 figures and clothing into the program, right? So your claim about Genesis being ignored is just wrong. Go to the Iclone website and read. I have some of their software on my own workstation. I was not impressed with it. Comes off as a game-oriented version of DAZ studio which I despise. Also it's overpriced as all heck. But again, my point is Genesis. If Iclone's users weren't devoutly using DAZ material then why the big rollout to provide compatibility and import? Hmm? Crickets chirping. Yep. Read up before talking:iclone & DAZ
So plugins can be built and pipelines designed. But Bondware wants you to buy here rather than DAZ. The reason DAZ has succeeded as much as they have is because they do not alienate but instead, try to integrate with every piece of software including Poser. They don't alienate any customer with a dollar. They are greedy and smarmy and generally disliked, but begrudgingly I admit they are not failing as a business model. Poser is cutting off the very people that have fed them over the years. If iclone can build themselves an importer, so can Bondware. Isolation is how software dies these days. Be part of the pipeline or fail. It's that simple. Poser content is not good. Admit that and accept that you need outside content. The program is solid and beautiful...but it needs improvements and it needs advancements - not constant adding of the shiniest new thing or tiny addendum to fix broken things while major bugs go untouched.
My points all remain. Challengers may take a number and wait their turn. Next?
555MMar posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 8:11 PM
I don't understand. If you don't like Poser 12 and/or Python 3, why not just stick to older versions of the program? is not like they don't exist anymore. No offense intended at all.
JAG posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 8:17 PM
structure posted at 8:16PM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4404999
the reason that support for Python 2 was ended; is that python 2 reached its EOL on January 1, 2020.
Complaints about DSON can be directed to DAZ where they belong since they wrote and own the software. Complaining about it here will do you no good, nothing will be resolved. If you want it to work with poser 12, you need to find someone who is willing to convert it.
Oh wowwww....wowww...why didn't I think of that? Goodness me...I'm so dumb. Thank you for sharing your personal story and account of how your two cents really meant something at all. I appreciate that information - I was under the silly assumption that Bondware wrote and owned DSON. Stupid me. I'm glad I didn't state just the opposite of that like eight times already. Gosh! Thank you so much!
JAG posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 8:20 PM
adp001 posted at 8:18PM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4405007
"Where there is a will, there is a way".
A DAZ Genesis Importer is not a witchcraft. There are several approaches (Python source) on the net how to import DAZ files, e.g. to Blender. Not ancient code, but up-to-date for Blender 2.8/9. Not from any big software companies, but from private people as a solo project.
Adapting this for Poser shouldn't be a problem for someone who is familiar with Poser. Bondware can't talk their way out of this but should admit that they don't want a Genesis importer.
The Poser fan community obviously can't come up with people who have enough knowledge. Meanwhile they have all left or are on the way.
THANK YOU! Well said and very pointed. I appreciate someone finally backing me up! My highest compliments and appreciation. I'll even send you a private thank you! You are apparently the only person other than me here that has a brain inside their skull and knows what they're talking about. See my notes below on iclone's pipeline for DAZ content. It very much backs both our points. Again, thank you!
JAG posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 8:31 PM
wolf359 posted at 8:22PM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4405021
It's not a sign of failure that third party programs do not >create an importer from that published file-format! for example >there are few programs with a Cinema 4D importer.
regards prixat
Maxon, Autodesk etc makes money selling(now renting) an entire 3DCC application.
NOT selling canned content for base figures that come with the program.
One does not need a "Cinema 4D importer" because ,like Blender,Maya,Max one can create content in C4D and export it to industry standard formats Like FBX.obj,Alembic
From the perpective of the Daz business model it is a huge failure that only some small number of poser users remain fixated on importing the genesis figures for various reasons.
Daz depends one people getting excited about those lovely Genesis Figures and then flocking to the Daz commercial store to buy content for them.
This did not really happen ,in any major way, in the Professional CG ,film &Gaming communities because they prefer to work within thier Custom Character eco-systems without having to muck about with kiddie toys Like Daz studio to get a genesis figure into their professional 3DCC pipelines via some 'DSON" format.
Particularly in light of the fact that Genesis needs to be connected to its massive Daz studio Data folder for its full functionality and Daz studio installations are NOT scalable for large team projects that Game/ film company pipelines require.
Yes, yes, very distinguished...you're a professional CGI person...we all see your website link. If you think iclone is professional software...(snickers)...okay then. I'll just let you roll around in that one. And if you think DAZ's system is all that, you should look around iclone's - because they charge you separate for every darn little plugin and add-on they have. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars by the time you even get their basic system up and running. It's almost obnoxiously confusing to say the least. But this thread is about the death of DSON - not the gaming industry and not iclone. It's not an argument about who makes DSON or any of that. It's a formal rant about why it's bad for Poser to drop compatibility with DAZ products. But of course no one listens. No one listened to me in the beta team at Smith either. I quite in protest and I was right and P11 bombed horribly and they were going to just let the program die. It was that bad. So no, don't listen to me. Insult me for saying the clear facts and obvious things. Berate me for being old and tell me to get over it and move along. Old people have this thing called experience. You'd be shocked out how valuable it is. We don't just know history - we lived it - we made it - and we might just know a thing or two more than you do. Learn to stop and listen. You younger generations read a blog for two minutes and think you've got Ph.D's. You're all stuck in this imaginary world where you think your opinion matters and your knowledge is all encompassing. I know my opinion is blowing in the wind and I am far from knowing much about anything. So when I do open my mouth, it's with 25 years of Poser knowledge and experience. What have the rest of you got? Exactly. A website does not an important CGI artist make. I'm no famous artist. I'm nobody. But I have been using Poser for a long, long time. Longer than any of you most likely.
JAG posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 8:36 PM
Iuvenis_Scriptor posted at 8:36PM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4405032
For anyone who's interested, here's a thread specifically for discussing potential solutions.
Thank you! Most kind of you to put that effort in!
JAG posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 8:45 PM
555MMar posted at 8:37PM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4405062
I don't understand. If you don't like Poser 12 and/or Python 3, why not just stick to older versions of the program? is not like they don't exist anymore. No offense intended at all.
I do and I currently work with Poser 10. I had PoserPro2014, but Bondware decided I didn't need that anymore and stopped (or rather never did) honor the sale agreement made via Smith Micro regarding it. So despite me paying for PP2014Game Dev, I no longer can use it and had to devolve back to Poser 10 which has no FBX import ability. So I had to get Poser 11 (which they so kindly gave me) just to convert FBX models for use in 10. Ya'know...that which I already had and paid for. Fortunately for certain parties crippled up old geezers like me can't afford to sue over a few hundred dollars. So I just sucked that theft of my software up and moved along. Technically Smith was responsible for honoring that and I've been bent ever since. The problem is, I'd like to eventually upgrade if Poser ever presents anything worth updating for. 11 didn't impress me and 12 surely hasn't. They took away DSON and without DAZ compatibility, my entire massive library dating back 25 years is apparently no longer of importance. Now much of the older pre-Genesis stuff will still work like Victoria 4 and so forth but she's only slightly better looking than Poser's current franken-base monster so ya'know I just really prefer realistic looking base figures and so pardon me if I really like my Genesis 3 and 8 figures. I also love my Poser 10. But someday I'd like to say I'm upgrading to Poser 15 and all my stuff can migrate into it. Apparently that's a pipe dream.
Thank you for being nice and quite humble in your post. That was respectable and I would like to hold your comment up as an example of how people should approach forum posting. This is my thread, till they lock it, and I can be as ornery as I choose. People posting in it though should not do so with the intent of antagonizing. Maybe sometimes we just need to vent our issues to those who need to hear it. Sometimes an angry thread is called for. It is however, not a call to arms for trolls and morons. All of you could learn something from reading this short little comment from 555Mmar.
555MMar posted Wed, 18 November 2020 at 8:58 PM
Thank you ^^
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 2:31 AM
555MMar posted at 2:30AM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405071
Thank you ^^
No thanks needed! Kind and humble people deserve kind and humble praise. I wish everyone would post as respectfully as you did. I probably wouldn't be as grumpy as I am if they did. Take Care!
wolf359 posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 4:48 AM
It's a formal rant about why it's bad for Poser to drop compatibility >with DAZ >products.
Bondware has not "dropped compatibility with DAZ products",They have abandoned Python 2.
those people who are willing to do the work to import Daz content , through other means, can still do so
But of course no one listens. No one listened to me in the beta team at Smith either. I quite in protest and I was right and P11 bombed horribly and they were going to just let the program die. It was that bad. So no, don't listen to me. Insult me for saying the clear facts and obvious things. Berate me for being old and tell me to get over it and move along. Old people have this thing called experience. You'd be shocked out how valuable it is. We don't just know history - we lived it - we made it - and we might just know a thing or two more than >you do.
Thus said every bitter,old man who ever lived.?
I will be 57 years old in December and started with Fractal Design poser 2.
so I guess I am "Old" as well, however that does not make my opinions any more valid that someone younger.
Certainly someone your age must know that corporations make decision they feel are in their interest which is what bondware has done regarding Python 3
Software is just a tool.
If the tool changes in some way that makes them no longer viable for me I choose a different tool.
Poser has moved away from the version of Python needed for the "DSON" importer.
So you need to stay with older versions of poser or choose another method of import.
Those are your options.?
Liquid_Ice posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 8:10 AM
Just like aforementioned, every company make their own decisions that fit their pipeline. As much as I dislike LA femme and lhomme at least bondware tries to come up with something.
I work in Daz studio too and I have been a poser user since poser 1. More than 25 years ago. I was still a kid when version one came on the market. However if you don't like what you get, you can always try to create something you like. If you can't, try finding someone who does it for you. My absolute favorite figure is abandoned like the plague. (kez) But I will make stuff for her just for my own needs. You don't hear me complain. I agree on poser 11 and 12 but that is what we got and we have to deal with it.
Liquid_Ice posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 8:14 AM
Daz isn't the best per say in the modeling department. They have alot of very talented artists and they bought a lot of stuff from them too or are brokering. Their marketing is of the chain I have to say.
There are and were a lot of talented modelers here, that created great alternatives to the Daz human models. But most people are afraid to try something new and support the artist( Antonia for instance). Support takes time and people. In stead of complaining we could've made a lof of stuff for those models. I'm always down to help people and support lesser supported models.
randym77 posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 8:41 AM
wolf359 posted at 8:39AM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405093
Poser has moved away from the version of Python needed for the "DSON" importer.
So you need to stay with older versions of poser or choose another method of import.
Those are your options.?
Or just use DAZ Studio. I suspect that's what most people who use a lot of Genesis stuff are doing.
structure posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 8:49 AM Forum Coordinator
JAG posted at 8:37AM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405067
wolf359 posted at 8:22PM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4405021
It's not a sign of failure that third party programs do not >create an importer from that published file-format! for example >there are few programs with a Cinema 4D importer.
regards prixat
Maxon, Autodesk etc makes money selling(now renting) an entire 3DCC application.
NOT selling canned content for base figures that come with the program.
One does not need a "Cinema 4D importer" because ,like Blender,Maya,Max one can create content in C4D and export it to industry standard formats Like FBX.obj,Alembic
From the perpective of the Daz business model it is a huge failure that only some small number of poser users remain fixated on importing the genesis figures for various reasons.
Daz depends one people getting excited about those lovely Genesis Figures and then flocking to the Daz commercial store to buy content for them.
This did not really happen ,in any major way, in the Professional CG ,film &Gaming communities because they prefer to work within thier Custom Character eco-systems without having to muck about with kiddie toys Like Daz studio to get a genesis figure into their professional 3DCC pipelines via some 'DSON" format.
Particularly in light of the fact that Genesis needs to be connected to its massive Daz studio Data folder for its full functionality and Daz studio installations are NOT scalable for large team projects that Game/ film company pipelines require.
Yes, yes, very distinguished...you're a professional CGI person...we all see your website link. If you think iclone is professional software...(snickers)...okay then. I'll just let you roll around in that one. And if you think DAZ's system is all that, you should look around iclone's - because they charge you separate for every darn little plugin and add-on they have. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars by the time you even get their basic system up and running. It's almost obnoxiously confusing to say the least. But this thread is about the death of DSON - not the gaming industry and not iclone. It's not an argument about who makes DSON or any of that. It's a formal rant about why it's bad for Poser to drop compatibility with DAZ products. But of course no one listens. No one listened to me in the beta team at Smith either. I quite in protest and I was right and P11 bombed horribly and they were going to just let the program die. It was that bad. So no, don't listen to me. Insult me for saying the clear facts and obvious things. Berate me for being old and tell me to get over it and move along. Old people have this thing called experience. You'd be shocked out how valuable it is. We don't just know history - we lived it - we made it - and we might just know a thing or two more than you do. Learn to stop and listen. You younger generations read a blog for two minutes and think you've got Ph.D's. You're all stuck in this imaginary world where you think your opinion matters and your knowledge is all encompassing. I know my opinion is blowing in the wind and I am far from knowing much about anything. So when I do open my mouth, it's with 25 years of Poser knowledge and experience. What have the rest of you got? Exactly. A website does not an important CGI artist make. I'm no famous artist. I'm nobody. But I have been using Poser for a long, long time. Longer than any of you most likely.
You have made fallacious assumptions about how old/young people in this community are, I started using poser in 1998 ( poser 3 ) and joined Renderosity in 2001, so I guess you could say with 22 years of Poser experience, I am at least your peer, poser has not stopped compatibility with DAZ, rather, it is DAZ that have consigned poser to the back shelf ( don't believe me? Go and check their search engine and see where the function to list by Poser is. ) This argument is stale, it has been done to death.
If you want to use Genesis so badly, there is a program made specifically for it. Your so-called experience is nothing more than most of the remaining Poser users have, and Bondware, the people developing the software include the original Poser creator and some folks with a lot more knowledge about the program than yourself or I.
The death of DSON is not the end of Genesis in poser, people have been importing genesis using FBX, but if that is not your thing, please, move over to their native program and use them how they are meant to be used.
Locked Out
DCArt posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 3:37 PM
shvrdavid posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 3:57 PM
I have a really odd, but obvious question. Has anyone even asked Daz if they are going to update DSON?
And if so, what was their answer?
Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->
hborre posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 4:20 PM
To be honest, if DAZ was truly interested in updating the DSON Importer, they would have done so already. While everyone is holding their breath waiting for something to happen, I figured out a way to get a fully functional Genesis 8 into P12 with DSON, P11, and Willdial's Genesis 3 Poser Importer.
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:08 PM
wolf359 posted at 5:05PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405093
It's a formal rant about why it's bad for Poser to drop compatibility >with DAZ >products.
Bondware has not "dropped compatibility with DAZ products",They have abandoned Python 2.
those people who are willing to do the work to import Daz content , through other means, can still do so
But of course no one listens. No one listened to me in the beta team at Smith either. I quite in protest and I was right and P11 bombed horribly and they were going to just let the program die. It was that bad. So no, don't listen to me. Insult me for saying the clear facts and obvious things. Berate me for being old and tell me to get over it and move along. Old people have this thing called experience. You'd be shocked out how valuable it is. We don't just know history - we lived it - we made it - and we might just know a thing or two more than >you do.
Thus said every bitter,old man who ever lived.?
I will be 57 years old in December and started with Fractal Design poser 2.
so I guess I am "Old" as well, however that does not make my opinions any more valid that someone younger.
Certainly someone your age must know that corporations make decision they feel are in their interest which is what bondware has done regarding Python 3
Software is just a tool.
If the tool changes in some way that makes them no longer viable for me I choose a different tool.
Poser has moved away from the version of Python needed for the "DSON" importer.
So you need to stay with older versions of poser or choose another method of import.
Those are your options.?
Why are you obsessed with defending Bondware here? You cannot dispute the following fact:
Bondware chose to end use of Python 2.0 - knowing full well this would disable all existing plugins as well as DSON.
Now, please, by all means...dispute that. Try. If you cannot dispute that, then my point remains valid and you're argument is simply moot. At this point I think I may stop responding to you at all. Clearly it's you who doesn't get this.
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:11 PM
Liquid_Ice posted at 5:09PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405102
Just like aforementioned, every company make their own decisions that fit their pipeline. As much as I dislike LA femme and lhomme at least bondware tries to come up with something.
I work in Daz studio too and I have been a poser user since poser 1. More than 25 years ago. I was still a kid when version one came on the market. However if you don't like what you get, you can always try to create something you like. If you can't, try finding someone who does it for you. My absolute favorite figure is abandoned like the plague. (kez) But I will make stuff for her just for my own needs. You don't hear me complain. I agree on poser 11 and 12 but that is what we got and we have to deal with it.
"It is what we got and we have to deal with it." Seriously? You do realize America was founded on the principle of speaking up and not accepting wrongness, right? That attitude is half of what's wrong with the younger generations. If something is wrong, you speak up. You don't just accept it. No, I probably can't change Bondware's direction but I can shout loud enough that they shut my thread down eventually. And if enough people stand up and shout with me - perhaps...hopefully Bondware will take notice. If no one complains, nothing ever gets done. So if you agree with me, have a little rant. Deal with it...indeed! No I will not. Thank you.
ghostship2 posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:12 PM
W10, Ryzen 5 1600x, 16Gb,RTX2060Super+GTX980, PP11, 11.3.740
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:12 PM
randym77 posted at 5:12PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405111
wolf359 posted at 8:39AM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405093
Poser has moved away from the version of Python needed for the "DSON" importer.
So you need to stay with older versions of poser or choose another method of import.
Those are your options.?
Or just use DAZ Studio. I suspect that's what most people who use a lot of Genesis stuff are doing.
Oh wow...thank you for that advice. I had not thought of that myself. How stupid could I possibly be?!?! Thank you, thank you, thank you! How does the world function without such incredible guidance as you just provided?!?!?!
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:17 PM
structure posted at 5:14PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405113
JAG posted at 8:37AM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405067
wolf359 posted at 8:22PM Wed, 18 November 2020 - #4405021
It's not a sign of failure that third party programs do not >create an importer from that published file-format! for example >there are few programs with a Cinema 4D importer.
regards prixat
Maxon, Autodesk etc makes money selling(now renting) an entire 3DCC application.
NOT selling canned content for base figures that come with the program.
One does not need a "Cinema 4D importer" because ,like Blender,Maya,Max one can create content in C4D and export it to industry standard formats Like FBX.obj,Alembic
From the perpective of the Daz business model it is a huge failure that only some small number of poser users remain fixated on importing the genesis figures for various reasons.
Daz depends one people getting excited about those lovely Genesis Figures and then flocking to the Daz commercial store to buy content for them.
This did not really happen ,in any major way, in the Professional CG ,film &Gaming communities because they prefer to work within thier Custom Character eco-systems without having to muck about with kiddie toys Like Daz studio to get a genesis figure into their professional 3DCC pipelines via some 'DSON" format.
Particularly in light of the fact that Genesis needs to be connected to its massive Daz studio Data folder for its full functionality and Daz studio installations are NOT scalable for large team projects that Game/ film company pipelines require.
Yes, yes, very distinguished...you're a professional CGI person...we all see your website link. If you think iclone is professional software...(snickers)...okay then. I'll just let you roll around in that one. And if you think DAZ's system is all that, you should look around iclone's - because they charge you separate for every darn little plugin and add-on they have. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars by the time you even get their basic system up and running. It's almost obnoxiously confusing to say the least. But this thread is about the death of DSON - not the gaming industry and not iclone. It's not an argument about who makes DSON or any of that. It's a formal rant about why it's bad for Poser to drop compatibility with DAZ products. But of course no one listens. No one listened to me in the beta team at Smith either. I quite in protest and I was right and P11 bombed horribly and they were going to just let the program die. It was that bad. So no, don't listen to me. Insult me for saying the clear facts and obvious things. Berate me for being old and tell me to get over it and move along. Old people have this thing called experience. You'd be shocked out how valuable it is. We don't just know history - we lived it - we made it - and we might just know a thing or two more than you do. Learn to stop and listen. You younger generations read a blog for two minutes and think you've got Ph.D's. You're all stuck in this imaginary world where you think your opinion matters and your knowledge is all encompassing. I know my opinion is blowing in the wind and I am far from knowing much about anything. So when I do open my mouth, it's with 25 years of Poser knowledge and experience. What have the rest of you got? Exactly. A website does not an important CGI artist make. I'm no famous artist. I'm nobody. But I have been using Poser for a long, long time. Longer than any of you most likely.
You have made fallacious assumptions about how old/young people in this community are, I started using poser in 1998 ( poser 3 ) and joined Renderosity in 2001, so I guess you could say with 22 years of Poser experience, I am at least your peer, poser has not stopped compatibility with DAZ, rather, it is DAZ that have consigned poser to the back shelf ( don't believe me? Go and check their search engine and see where the function to list by Poser is. ) This argument is stale, it has been done to death.
If you want to use Genesis so badly, there is a program made specifically for it. Your so-called experience is nothing more than most of the remaining Poser users have, and Bondware, the people developing the software include the original Poser creator and some folks with a lot more knowledge about the program than yourself or I.
The death of DSON is not the end of Genesis in poser, people have been importing genesis using FBX, but if that is not your thing, please, move over to their native program and use them how they are meant to be used.
It is within your own statement that we find a core of truth. You spoke of DAZ putting Poser on the back-burner. There was a time when Poser put others on the back-burner. That's what I'm talking about. Smith took a u-turn with 11 and let DAZ get ahead of them. Now DAZ is trying to finish Poser off. Hence they're not likely to want DSON to continue working. They're probably waiting for Bondware to tank so they can buy Poser and bury it or incorporate it like they've done with other rival software. I won't take up the argument over ages. I will state that I despise being assumed-to-be an idiot or novice. That is why I cut loose with the "how old I am" and "how long I've been using Poser," rant. Please pay attention to context.
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:18 PM
Deecey posted at 5:17PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405183
Just dropping this here.
WTLF? What does this have to do with the thread? Are you serious? You're just posting your personal random image in the thread? I don't even have words.
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:20 PM
shvrdavid posted at 5:18PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405189
I have a really odd, but obvious question. Has anyone even asked Daz if they are going to update DSON?
And if so, what was their answer?
Well, gee...that would be a logical thing to do. Surely I wouldn't have --- oh wait, yes I did ask them and no they have not ever responded and probably won't. Feel free to try it yourself. I've bought nearly $10K worth of content from them in the last fifteen years and if they don't answer my inquiries...chances are they aren't going to answer anybody else either - but if someone does get a response - please post it.
DCArt posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:22 PM
WTLF? What does this have to do with the thread? Are you serious? You're just posting your personal random image in the thread? I don't even have words.
It has quite a bit to do with this thread.
-- I've been using Poser since version 1. So I am more "old timer" than you are.
-- That's the fugly La Femme that you don't seem to like.
-- Rendered in Poser 12 that you don't seem to like.
Just sayin'
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:26 PM
hborre posted at 5:21PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405195
To be honest, if DAZ was truly interested in updating the DSON Importer, they would have done so already. While everyone is holding their breath waiting for something to happen, I figured out a way to get a fully functional Genesis 8 into P12 with DSON, P11, and Willdial's Genesis 3 Poser Importer.
It's always worked in P11. DSON does not work in P12. If you have brought her in via P11 and saved it to P11 runtime and then opened the figure file in P12, it may work but it's going to be unstable as DSON is still required to load the figures. Please post your process though. If it can be done with stability, it might come in handy to know how to do it --- but if Bondware decides at some point to simply stop servicing P11 like they did with PoserPro2014GameDev...then the pipeline will fail. So it might be a temporary work-around but not reliably. Please post it though. I'm sure I'm not the only one who will benefit from it. I'm interested to see how you did it.
randym77 posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:31 PM
JAG posted at 5:29PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405204
randym77 posted at 5:12PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405111
wolf359 posted at 8:39AM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405093
Poser has moved away from the version of Python needed for the "DSON" importer.
So you need to stay with older versions of poser or choose another method of import.
Those are your options.?
Or just use DAZ Studio. I suspect that's what most people who use a lot of Genesis stuff are doing.
Oh wow...thank you for that advice. I had not thought of that myself. How stupid could I possibly be?!?! Thank you, thank you, thank you! How does the world function without such incredible guidance as you just provided?!?!?!
Glad I could help! I know you olds sometimes struggle with computer stuff.
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:34 PM
Deecey posted at 5:26PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405210
WTLF? What does this have to do with the thread? Are you serious? You're just posting your personal random image in the thread? I don't even have words.
It has quite a bit to do with this thread.
-- I've been using Poser since version 1. So I am more "old timer" than you are.
-- That's the fugly La Femme that you don't seem to like.
-- Rendered in Poser 12 that you don't seem to like.
Just sayin'
Should have posted that information with the image. Otherwise it just seems like you're a weirdo going around posting images in random threads. Pardon me for not getting the unspoken connection. I don't want to insult your work. But I will say that I still don't like the horse-faced, awkward and unrealistic figure. That is not your fault - it is the designer with Smith/Bond who is responsible for that abomination of a sculpt. Your image is pretty good though and well rendered. But your attempt at making a point falls flat I'm afraid. I was actually the beta who threw the tantrum over the P11 figures during development. Jesse was more accurately put together than these things. They are horrible and their anatomical design is cartoonish and in no way accurate. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being a perfect human replication in 3D, Genesis 3/8 come in at about a 7 and Poser's figures rank about 3 on a good day. If they were so awesome, how come Poser has tanked to the point that Smith unloaded the program? If P11 was and is so fantastic and the direction taken with the program so wonderful - then why did 11 tank so bad that Smith was going to utterly bury the software?
**None of you can invalidate that one point. The transfer to Bondware proves that P11 was an utter failure. It remains an utter failure and building upon it will only make that failure more insurmountable. **Please - though - continue to tell me this is a fallacy and that I am wrong. Tell me how great the figures are and how awesome the new versions are and how Poser is going to take the field by storm some more. Poser is the Titanic and nobody realizes they hit an iceberg over two years ago.
DCArt posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:34 PM
Glad I could help! I know you olds sometimes struggle with computer stuff.
HEY! I'm an old and I use both. LOL
DCArt posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:36 PM
JAG posted at 5:34PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405214
Deecey posted at 5:26PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405210
WTLF? What does this have to do with the thread? Are you serious? You're just posting your personal random image in the thread? I don't even have words.
It has quite a bit to do with this thread.
-- I've been using Poser since version 1. So I am more "old timer" than you are.
-- That's the fugly La Femme that you don't seem to like.
-- Rendered in Poser 12 that you don't seem to like.
Just sayin'
Should have posted that information with the image. Otherwise it just seems like you're a weirdo going around posting images in random threads. Pardon me for not getting the unspoken connection. I don't want to insult your work. But I will say that I still don't like the horse-faced, awkward and unrealistic figure. That is not your fault - it is the designer with Smith/Bond who is responsible for that abomination of a sculpt. Your image is pretty good though and well rendered. But your attempt at making a point falls flat I'm afraid. I was actually the beta who threw the tantrum over the P11 figures during development. Jesse was more accurately put together than these things. They are horrible and their anatomical design is cartoonish and in no way accurate. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being a perfect human replication in 3D, Genesis 3/8 come in at about a 7 and Poser's figures rank about 3 on a good day. If they were so awesome, how come Poser has tanked to the point that Smith unloaded the program? If P11 was and is so fantastic and the direction taken with the program so wonderful - then why did 11 tank so bad that Smith was going to utterly bury the software?
**None of you can invalidate that one point. The transfer to Bondware proves that P11 was an utter failure. It remains an utter failure and building upon it will only make that failure more insurmountable. **Please - though - continue to tell me this is a fallacy and that I am wrong. Tell me how great the figures are and how awesome the new versions are and how Poser is going to take the field by storm some more. Poser is the Titanic and nobody realizes they hit an iceberg over two years ago.
It's a total resculpt, more realistic proportions. Based off a scan of a real human. Some of us old timers put some elbow grease into things. 8-)
randym77 posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:37 PM
Deecey posted at 5:36PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405215
Glad I could help! I know you olds sometimes struggle with computer stuff.
HEY! I'm an old and I use both. LOL
Me, too, actually. I think the average poster here is 55 to dead. We're not old, we're...um...vintage!
randym77 posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 5:53 PM
Deecey posted at 5:51PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405216
It's a total resculpt, more realistic proportions. Based off a scan of a real human. Some of us old timers put some elbow grease into things. 8-)
She looks really good. Is this a future product in the RMP?
I like the way hair renders in Poser 12. I never liked the way hair rendered in Superfly, especially curly hair, but this looks very nice.
DCArt posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 6:00 PM
randym77 posted at 6:00PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405218
Deecey posted at 5:51PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405216
It's a total resculpt, more realistic proportions. Based off a scan of a real human. Some of us old timers put some elbow grease into things. 8-)
She looks really good. Is this a future product in the RMP?
I like the way hair renders in Poser 12. I never liked the way hair rendered in Superfly, especially curly hair, but this looks very nice.
Yeah I'm working on it. I'm still not happy with the normal map ... UGH
But it's getting closer. 8-)
Digitell posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 6:06 PM
Deecey posted at 6:05PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405219
randym77 posted at 6:00PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405218
Deecey posted at 5:51PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405216
It's a total resculpt, more realistic proportions. Based off a scan of a real human. Some of us old timers put some elbow grease into things. 8-)
She looks really good. Is this a future product in the RMP?
I like the way hair renders in Poser 12. I never liked the way hair rendered in Superfly, especially curly hair, but this looks very nice.
Yeah I'm working on it. I'm still not happy with the normal map ... UGH
But it's getting closer. 8-)
I think she is gorgeous just as she is! I am looking forward to seeing her in the RMP!!
Miss B posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 6:08 PM
randym77 posted at 6:07PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405217
Me, too, actually. I think the average poster here is 55 to dead. We're not old, we're...um...vintage!
Hmmmm, vintage. Perhaps like a superb glass of wine. 
_______________
OK . . . Where's my chocolate?
Digitell posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 6:14 PM
Me too..I am 60 + so...I am right in there with the lot!
DCArt posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 6:24 PM
Miss B posted at 6:24PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405221
randym77 posted at 6:07PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405217
Me, too, actually. I think the average poster here is 55 to dead. We're not old, we're...um...vintage!
Hmmmm, vintage. Perhaps like a superb glass of wine.
Hey. I'm so vintage, vinegar is more like it LOL
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 7:55 PM
randym77 posted at 7:53PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405213
JAG posted at 5:29PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405204
randym77 posted at 5:12PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405111
wolf359 posted at 8:39AM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405093
Poser has moved away from the version of Python needed for the "DSON" importer.
So you need to stay with older versions of poser or choose another method of import.
Those are your options.?
Or just use DAZ Studio. I suspect that's what most people who use a lot of Genesis stuff are doing.
Oh wow...thank you for that advice. I had not thought of that myself. How stupid could I possibly be?!?! Thank you, thank you, thank you! How does the world function without such incredible guidance as you just provided?!?!?!
Glad I could help! I know you olds sometimes struggle with computer stuff.
Ha, ha, ha...so funny. My generation invented modern internet and digital mediums. Don't get cocky. If it wasn't for GenX, (post-boomer) you clowns wouldn't have computers, phones, or tablets. You're welcome.
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 7:59 PM
Deecey posted at 7:55PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405216
JAG posted at 5:34PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405214
Deecey posted at 5:26PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405210
WTLF? What does this have to do with the thread? Are you serious? You're just posting your personal random image in the thread? I don't even have words.
It has quite a bit to do with this thread.
-- I've been using Poser since version 1. So I am more "old timer" than you are.
-- That's the fugly La Femme that you don't seem to like.
-- Rendered in Poser 12 that you don't seem to like.
Just sayin'
Should have posted that information with the image. Otherwise it just seems like you're a weirdo going around posting images in random threads. Pardon me for not getting the unspoken connection. I don't want to insult your work. But I will say that I still don't like the horse-faced, awkward and unrealistic figure. That is not your fault - it is the designer with Smith/Bond who is responsible for that abomination of a sculpt. Your image is pretty good though and well rendered. But your attempt at making a point falls flat I'm afraid. I was actually the beta who threw the tantrum over the P11 figures during development. Jesse was more accurately put together than these things. They are horrible and their anatomical design is cartoonish and in no way accurate. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being a perfect human replication in 3D, Genesis 3/8 come in at about a 7 and Poser's figures rank about 3 on a good day. If they were so awesome, how come Poser has tanked to the point that Smith unloaded the program? If P11 was and is so fantastic and the direction taken with the program so wonderful - then why did 11 tank so bad that Smith was going to utterly bury the software?
**None of you can invalidate that one point. The transfer to Bondware proves that P11 was an utter failure. It remains an utter failure and building upon it will only make that failure more insurmountable. **Please - though - continue to tell me this is a fallacy and that I am wrong. Tell me how great the figures are and how awesome the new versions are and how Poser is going to take the field by storm some more. Poser is the Titanic and nobody realizes they hit an iceberg over two years ago.
It's a total resculpt, more realistic proportions. Based off a scan of a real human. Some of us old timers put some elbow grease into things. 8-)
Yeah, I have as well. My base Gen3 I use is practically reworked as well. I despise out-of-box figures. My compliments to you for being able to put a spin on her. I actually submitted a reshaping of the original P11 female base while with the beta team to make it more match Gen3/8 with regard to realistic proportions and it was not used. Clearly the uppers felt like Franken-character was the way to go. And yet P11 did not sell well. Hmmm...makes me wonder why? So they had a re-shaped base they could have used and just didn't? Correct.
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 8:03 PM
Deecey posted at 7:59PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405219
randym77 posted at 6:00PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405218
Deecey posted at 5:51PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405216
It's a total resculpt, more realistic proportions. Based off a scan of a real human. Some of us old timers put some elbow grease into things. 8-)
She looks really good. Is this a future product in the RMP?
I like the way hair renders in Poser 12. I never liked the way hair rendered in Superfly, especially curly hair, but this looks very nice.
Yeah I'm working on it. I'm still not happy with the normal map ... UGH
But it's getting closer. 8-)
Poser has never handled normals well. Firefly literally could not use them at all. The displacement system for Poser was also jacked. Most programs and render engines utilize a gray-scale image in which black is deep and white is high and gray is neutral. This allows the surface to be manipulated in and out at the same time. Poser reads black as neutral and anything gray to white rises in height. You can make a negative (-1.0) setting to get indentions but it requires mixing maps which is wasted effort. So many things could have been fixed and none of these things ever gets improved. Like all Firefly needed was caustics and some tweaks - along with new lighting improvements. But instead they focus on superfly which is slow and ridiculous. Why not work on a bridge to one of the fancier game engines that are now free? Oh wait...that's what DAZ is doing! Again, behind the line on getting ahead, Bondware. Ultimately running the wrong direction.
JAG posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 8:04 PM
Miss B posted at 8:04PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405221
randym77 posted at 6:07PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405217
Me, too, actually. I think the average poster here is 55 to dead. We're not old, we're...um...vintage!
Hmmmm, vintage. Perhaps like a superb glass of wine.
I'm only 45. Just saying.
DCArt posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 9:18 PM
Poser has never handled normals well. Firefly literally could not use them at all. The displacement system for Poser was also jacked. Most programs and render engines utilize a gray-scale image in which black is deep and white is high and gray is neutral. This allows the surface to be manipulated in and out at the same time. Poser reads black as neutral and anything gray to white rises in height. You can make a negative (-1.0) setting to get indentions but it requires mixing maps which is wasted effort. So many things could have been fixed and none of these things ever gets improved. Like all Firefly needed was caustics and some tweaks - along with new lighting improvements. But instead they focus on superfly which is slow and ridiculous. Why not work on a bridge to one of the fancier game engines that are now free? Oh wait...that's what DAZ is doing! Again, behind the line on getting ahead, Bondware. Ultimately running the wrong direction.
If I might be a bit bold here ....
On one hand, you are suggesting that Poser should have stuck with FireFly instead of moving forward with Cycles/SuperFly.
On the other hand, you are suggesting that Poser should move forward again and go with a bridge to a game engine.
I'm confused ... should the devs look backward, or forward? At some point, software has no choice but to look forward. Python 2 is reaching end of life. Flash is reaching end of life. Decisions had to be made at some point on what had to be done to replace them. Which means moving forward.
I'm not trying to be insulting, or to rain on your parade, but old technologies are always replaced with new as they become obsolete. If one waits too long, more users are left with no other choice. I have 3 versions of Cinema 4D installed on my system because of plugin incompatibilities, and some of those plugins were pretty costly. All of the plugins I purchased for R19 and before no longer work in R20 and R21, and the newer ones I purchased don't work in the older versions. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
shvrdavid posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 9:30 PM
JAG posted at 8:59PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405209
Well, gee...that would be a logical thing to do. Surely I wouldn't have --- oh wait, yes I did ask them and no they have not ever responded and probably won't. Feel free to try it yourself. I've bought nearly $10K worth of content from them in the last fifteen years and if they don't answer my inquiries...chances are they aren't going to answer anybody else either - but if someone does get a response - please post it.
Not to be rude, and more to understand where you are coming from. If you did ask Daz about it and you didn't get an answer, why would you be mad at Poser?
Many programs have made api changes from one version to the next. It happens a lot. This has happened to just about every 3D program I have ever used. This has happened to many programs, that have nothing to do with graphics at all. Scripts have to be redone to work with the new api. It is a normal occurrence no matter what the program does.
I don't understand you being so upset at Poser when you spent a lot amount of money on content for Studio that you can't load into a newer version of Poser because Daz has not updated their own script yet. I can understand you being upset at Daz for not answering you about it thou. But that is not the direction you took this thread at all.
Anyone coming into this thread now and reading the whole thing up to this point is going to read thru 6 pages of text and come to the conclusion that the reason you are mad is that you spent 10k on Studio content instead of content for Poser. Now that Poser 12 can't presently use the 10k of content you bought for another program, it is Poser fault.
Look, I know people blow off steam, etc. Both of us have been here for years and I will admit I have had bad days myself. So no biggy there. If your dead set on getting Daz to update the script, using a tactful approach is always the best way to do it, and in the right place. It would be far better getting other people to help you convince Daz to update the script, then slam the program that ultimately needs it so you can use your content in it.
Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->
Miss B posted Thu, 19 November 2020 at 11:57 PM
Deecey posted at 11:56PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405224
Miss B posted at 6:24PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405221
randym77 posted at 6:07PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405217
Me, too, actually. I think the average poster here is 55 to dead. We're not old, we're...um...vintage!
Hmmmm, vintage. Perhaps like a superb glass of wine.
Hey. I'm so vintage, vinegar is more like it LOL
Oh I bet I have a few years on ya Deecey. 
_______________
OK . . . Where's my chocolate?
Y-Phil posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 2:01 AM
randym77 posted at 2:00AM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405217
Deecey posted at 5:36PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405215
Glad I could help! I know you olds sometimes struggle with computer stuff.
HEY! I'm an old and I use both. LOL
Me, too, actually. I think the average poster here is 55 to dead. We're not old, we're...um...vintage!
Lol... I love the "vintage" expression...
Signed: a 60yo man... 
𝒫𝒽𝓎𝓁
(っ◔◡◔)っ
👿 Win11 on i9-13900K@5GHz, 64GB, RoG Strix B760F Gamng, Asus Tuf Gaming RTX 4070 OC Edition, 1 TB SSD, 6+4+8TB HD
👿 Mac Mini M2, Sonoma 14.6.1, 16GB, 500GB SSD
👿 Nas 10TB
👿 Poser 13 and soon 14 ❤️
Y-Phil posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 3:06 AM
@JAG
I am by no way here to make any advertising, but if you are looking for a character that really looks like a real human, and moves like a real human, Erogenesis has done a huge work to create his Project One, like this one: Yvonne. Forget about the error on the skin's glossiness: I have to correct her skin because it's still the setup for P11 with only that parameter slightly corrected, and I don't have enough free time to update the mats just now, but this may give you an idea. Just in case.
𝒫𝒽𝓎𝓁
(っ◔◡◔)っ
👿 Win11 on i9-13900K@5GHz, 64GB, RoG Strix B760F Gamng, Asus Tuf Gaming RTX 4070 OC Edition, 1 TB SSD, 6+4+8TB HD
👿 Mac Mini M2, Sonoma 14.6.1, 16GB, 500GB SSD
👿 Nas 10TB
👿 Poser 13 and soon 14 ❤️
A_Sunbeam posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 5:20 AM
Maybe, at 81, I count as an antique?
JAG says he depends on Poser in his work. For interest, and being nosey, I would like to see what he creates - his gallery contains just two images, neither of them recent.
wolf359 posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 6:35 AM
Poser is the Titanic and nobody realizes they hit an iceberg over two years ago.
Yet you remain onboard ranting about how the ship managment has removed one of your favorite deck chairs.?
Now DAZ is trying to finish Poser off. Hence they're not likely to >want DSON to continue working. They're probably waiting for >Bondware to tank so they can buy Poser and bury it or incorporate >it like >they've done with other rival software.
If this is true YOU were complicit in their evil "conspiracy" by supporting them with "$$10K" worth of purchases ... yes??
If Daz considered Poser a threatening competitor, there would be no poser forum over at the Daz website.?
Try starting a Daz forum thread about the new skingen system in Iclone or posting a link to a video about converting a Genesis 8 figure to CC3 ,via their shape projection system ,and you will very quickly learn whom Daz considers a threat in this Market.?
Yet someone on the Reallusion forum recently complained about the poor frankly quality of the native hair sets for Iclone and the Forum Admin posted a direct link to the Hair section of the Daz store because we have a means to import& convert Daz content to Iclone native content. ?
I will state that I despise being assumed-to-be an idiot or >novice.
And I would imagine that Many long time members of this forum ( in their 50's& 60's), equally despised being assumed to be some clueless twitter twats or Millenials with no understanding of the how the world works because they are so spoiled by the modern technology your "generation" gifted to humanity.
My generation invented modern internet and digital mediums. Don't get cocky. If it wasn't for GenX, (post-boomer) you clowns >wouldn't have computers, phones, or tablets. You're welcome.
Lovely!! so your "generation" should be able to figure out how to operate a Kiddie toy ,freeware application like Daz Studio to render your precious Genesis dolls in their native Iray environment where they will always work no matter what happens with python development.
I stopped using Poser after Poser pro 2014 when I realized that Iclone Offered Far better realtime Character animation tools and a means to import & animate Daz genesis figure since G1.
Yes the Iclone Multi-tiered software is expensive, but it acheives my creative objectives so instead of ranting at SM/BW about the lack of a useful nonlinear motion clip system,Lipsynch tools or proper human IK solver, I moved to a different tool for my animated filmaking and completed my 93 minute feature length Marvel Fan film.
I dont buy content, I model my own in Blender..FREE!! formerly for Daz studio/Genesis and now for the CC3 base realtime Avatars(pic)
Daz inc & Bondware could vanish from the universe today and my creative endeavours would not be affected.
The 3D/CG world has advanced alot since your "generations" Glory days.
the Binary world of Poser or Daz studio no longer exists
I understand the Desire to stay hunched in ones little comfort bubble however it often limits ones creative options.
structure posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 10:06 AM Forum Coordinator
Bondware is doing two things with Poser,
They are bringing it into the modern world, using modern technologies, at some point, older technologies just have to give way, this is called progress.
They are attempting to fix the errors that slipped in under previous owners.
Yes Bondware chose to upgrade to Python3, because Python2 is no longer supported, it has reached EOL, and therefore there will be no security updates or additions etc.
( PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THIS - IT IS IMPORTANT )
But remember, nobody is forcing you to upgrade, you can remain in the past with old technologies and they will keep working as normal.
If you do upgrade, great, but accept that Poser is forging ahead and DSON has no place inside Poser unless DAZ decide to upgrade it ( good luck with that ) ) Older scripts are being upgraded to python3 ( this will take a little time ) Only a small contingent of python scripters are working on this project and we are trying to account for the most used / most important scripts. DSON is at the bottom of a very BIG pile.
All of that said, negativity is of no use to the developers, this forum, or the people working hard to make these scripts work with Poser 12.
Locked Out
dlfurman posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 10:28 AM
hborre posted at 10:28AM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405195
To be honest, if DAZ was truly interested in updating the DSON Importer, they would have done so already. While everyone is holding their breath waiting for something to happen, I figured out a way to get a fully functional Genesis 8 into P12 with DSON, P11, and Willdial's Genesis 3 Poser Importer.
Do tell ;)
"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld
Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD
space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)
hborre posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 12:33 PM
I think I posted this above. Here is the link to that thread:
https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2954792
Check your weapons at the door and keep a civil tongue.
bwldrd posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 4:03 PM
Quote "But remember, nobody is forcing you to upgrade, you can remain in the past with old technologies and they will keep working as normal."
Unless bondware does what SM did with Poser Game Designer and kill the licensing servers for 11 without giving anyone an option of an offline license or executable, that would keep working after they killed their activation servers. Then 11 would be just as useless. And don't tell me 2014 will still work I know that, but the Game Designer functions won't.
But I digress, due to that being off topic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?
RobZhena posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 5:13 PM
@DAG: So far as I can tell, the ONLY reason to move to Poser 12 is much better Superfly. Do you even use Superfly? I don't, because I always thought it was way too complicated and way too slow. They fixed the slow. I still won't use it. If you don't use Superfly, this whole thread is moot.
JAG posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 5:26 PM
Deecey posted at 5:21PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405237
Poser has never handled normals well. Firefly literally could not use them at all. The displacement system for Poser was also jacked. Most programs and render engines utilize a gray-scale image in which black is deep and white is high and gray is neutral. This allows the surface to be manipulated in and out at the same time. Poser reads black as neutral and anything gray to white rises in height. You can make a negative (-1.0) setting to get indentions but it requires mixing maps which is wasted effort. So many things could have been fixed and none of these things ever gets improved. Like all Firefly needed was caustics and some tweaks - along with new lighting improvements. But instead they focus on superfly which is slow and ridiculous. Why not work on a bridge to one of the fancier game engines that are now free? Oh wait...that's what DAZ is doing! Again, behind the line on getting ahead, Bondware. Ultimately running the wrong direction.
If I might be a bit bold here ....
On one hand, you are suggesting that Poser should have stuck with FireFly instead of moving forward with Cycles/SuperFly.
On the other hand, you are suggesting that Poser should move forward again and go with a bridge to a game engine.
I'm confused ... should the devs look backward, or forward? At some point, software has no choice but to look forward. Python 2 is reaching end of life. Flash is reaching end of life. Decisions had to be made at some point on what had to be done to replace them. Which means moving forward.
I'm not trying to be insulting, or to rain on your parade, but old technologies are always replaced with new as they become obsolete. If one waits too long, more users are left with no other choice. I have 3 versions of Cinema 4D installed on my system because of plugin incompatibilities, and some of those plugins were pretty costly. All of the plugins I purchased for R19 and before no longer work in R20 and R21, and the newer ones I purchased don't work in the older versions. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
I made two separate statements. Don't twist them and try to make me look like I'm not sure of my direction. That's a debate tactic and I can assure you I am well versed in such things. I stated that Firefly was a quick and solid little render engine that needed improvements (such as caustics) and some better lighting. It could have been drastically improved but Smith wanted to move into a render engine like Daz's Iray. So rather than fix what they had, they decided to tackle something completely new (superfly). So now they have a whole new engine with bugs of its own and its still slow and pretty shabby compared to say Iray. End of statement.
The next statement I made was that it's not a big leap to create bridges for other programs. DAZ has just released a bevy of free bridges. Iclone now has a DAZ and Poser content pipeline option to directly import DAZ and Poser content. These programs are succeeding because they are expanding their compatibility. Poser is going the opposite direction by limiting its compatibility (aka, cutting off python scripts and DSON). Why is Poser the only program not capable (now with 12 at least) of importing anyone else's content? DAZ uses Poser...Iclone uses both...Poser uses??? See my point?
JAG posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 5:30 PM
shvrdavid posted at 5:27PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405239
JAG posted at 8:59PM Thu, 19 November 2020 - #4405209
Well, gee...that would be a logical thing to do. Surely I wouldn't have --- oh wait, yes I did ask them and no they have not ever responded and probably won't. Feel free to try it yourself. I've bought nearly $10K worth of content from them in the last fifteen years and if they don't answer my inquiries...chances are they aren't going to answer anybody else either - but if someone does get a response - please post it.
Not to be rude, and more to understand where you are coming from. If you did ask Daz about it and you didn't get an answer, why would you be mad at Poser?
Many programs have made api changes from one version to the next. It happens a lot. This has happened to just about every 3D program I have ever used. This has happened to many programs, that have nothing to do with graphics at all. Scripts have to be redone to work with the new api. It is a normal occurrence no matter what the program does.
I don't understand you being so upset at Poser when you spent a lot amount of money on content for Studio that you can't load into a newer version of Poser because Daz has not updated their own script yet. I can understand you being upset at Daz for not answering you about it thou. But that is not the direction you took this thread at all.
Anyone coming into this thread now and reading the whole thing up to this point is going to read thru 6 pages of text and come to the conclusion that the reason you are mad is that you spent 10k on Studio content instead of content for Poser. Now that Poser 12 can't presently use the 10k of content you bought for another program, it is Poser fault.
Look, I know people blow off steam, etc. Both of us have been here for years and I will admit I have had bad days myself. So no biggy there. If your dead set on getting Daz to update the script, using a tactful approach is always the best way to do it, and in the right place. It would be far better getting other people to help you convince Daz to update the script, then slam the program that ultimately needs it so you can use your content in it.
Clearly you simply don't have the comprehensive skill set to understand the point of this thread. I don't have the will or patients to explain economics and business to you. Take a class. I'm not whining about my own decisions. My DAZ content still works just fine - in DAZ studio and my older Poser editions. I'm pointing out that limiting compatibility is not good for Poser. DAZ and Iclone are both expanding their compatibility features and pipelines (plugins and bridges) while Poser is continuing to consolidate and cut-off any and all extra features and plugins. I mean they literally just upended every Python plugin for the program to date. In simpler terms, Poser is going the OPPOSITE direction of every other 3D developer. Doesn't that strike you as rather dumb? Especially when other companies are succeeding and Poser is being dumped by Smith due to poor sales? Economics man...economics!
JAG posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 5:36 PM
wolf359 posted at 5:35PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405260
Poser is the Titanic and nobody realizes they hit an iceberg over two years ago.
Yet you remain onboard ranting about how the ship managment has removed one of your favorite deck chairs.?
Now DAZ is trying to finish Poser off. Hence they're not likely to >want DSON to continue working. They're probably waiting for >Bondware to tank so they can buy Poser and bury it or incorporate >it like >they've done with other rival software.
If this is true YOU were complicit in their evil "conspiracy" by supporting them with "$$10K" worth of purchases ... yes??
If Daz considered Poser a threatening competitor, there would be no poser forum over at the Daz website.?
Try starting a Daz forum thread about the new skingen system in Iclone or posting a link to a video about converting a Genesis 8 figure to CC3 ,via their shape projection system ,and you will very quickly learn whom Daz considers a threat in this Market.?
Yet someone on the Reallusion forum recently complained about the poor frankly quality of the native hair sets for Iclone and the Forum Admin posted a direct link to the Hair section of the Daz store because we have a means to import& convert Daz content to Iclone native content. ?
I will state that I despise being assumed-to-be an idiot or >novice.
And I would imagine that Many long time members of this forum ( in their 50's& 60's), equally despised being assumed to be some clueless twitter twats or Millenials with no understanding of the how the world works because they are so spoiled by the modern technology your "generation" gifted to humanity.
My generation invented modern internet and digital mediums. Don't get cocky. If it wasn't for GenX, (post-boomer) you clowns >wouldn't have computers, phones, or tablets. You're welcome.
Lovely!! so your "generation" should be able to figure out how to operate a Kiddie toy ,freeware application like Daz Studio to render your precious Genesis dolls in their native Iray environment where they will always work no matter what happens with python development.
I stopped using Poser after Poser pro 2014 when I realized that Iclone Offered Far better realtime Character animation tools and a means to import & animate Daz genesis figure since G1.
Yes the Iclone Multi-tiered software is expensive, but it acheives my creative objectives so instead of ranting at SM/BW about the lack of a useful nonlinear motion clip system,Lipsynch tools or proper human IK solver, I moved to a different tool for my animated filmaking and completed my 93 minute feature length Marvel Fan film.
I dont buy content, I model my own in Blender..FREE!! formerly for Daz studio/Genesis and now for the CC3 base realtime Avatars(pic)
Daz inc & Bondware could vanish from the universe today and my creative endeavours would not be affected.
The 3D/CG world has advanced alot since your "generations" Glory days.
the Binary world of Poser or Daz studio no longer exists
I understand the Desire to stay hunched in ones little comfort bubble however it often limits ones creative options.
Yes, yes...thank you for your diatribe on how we should all feel and function. I'm so glad your way is the best and if we don't agree we're just old and stupid. Thanks. I'm pretty much done talking to you. Thanks.
JAG posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 5:47 PM
structure posted at 5:37PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405269
Bondware is doing two things with Poser,
They are bringing it into the modern world, using modern technologies, at some point, older technologies just have to give way, this is called progress.
They are attempting to fix the errors that slipped in under previous owners.
Yes Bondware chose to upgrade to Python3, because Python2 is no longer supported, it has reached EOL, and therefore there will be no security updates or additions etc.
( PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THIS - IT IS IMPORTANT )But remember, nobody is forcing you to upgrade, you can remain in the past with old technologies and they will keep working as normal.
If you do upgrade, great, but accept that Poser is forging ahead and DSON has no place inside Poser unless DAZ decide to upgrade it ( good luck with that ) ) Older scripts are being upgraded to python3 ( this will take a little time ) Only a small contingent of python scripters are working on this project and we are trying to account for the most used / most important scripts. DSON is at the bottom of a very BIG pile.
All of that said, negativity is of no use to the developers, this forum, or the people working hard to make these scripts work with Poser 12.
You are wrong on so many points. Let me take them one at a time:
Every single 3D program company out there is moving towards compatibility. That includes DAZ and Iclone developers as well as others like Blender and so forth. Poser is however, shutting out compatibility. The one plugin, GoZ, has had a glitch for over two years that they claim they can't fix that renders the use of the SubD export feature absolutely useless and now they're cutting off their only other real importer (DSON) as well as shutting down every existing Python 2.0 based plugin. They are going the opposite direction of every other developer. Smith dumping the program should be enough to tell you 11 didn't sell very well. Why? The same development team that was failing at Smith is now working for Bondware...still running the show. You cannot tell me with a straight face that Bondware is moving Poser forward and advancing it. They have not released one single new feature that is of any consequence since acquiring the program. It's all bug fixes and tweaks and things that don't half work. Remember how cool it was when Smith introduced cloth simulation? Where are the innovations? DAZ just released a spring-physics plugin for studio. I don't want Poser to fail and I don't want it to go backwards - just the opposite - I'm trying to make them understand that they're already going the wrong direction.
Fixing errors? Yes and that's all they're doing. Innovation?!?! Hello? Compatibility??? Anyone?? No one listening as usual.
What's the problem with negativity? That's the problem with the younger generations - you all live in this fantasy world where everything has to be unicorns and rainbows or it's too terrible to handle. If something sucks - you say it sucks. If I've got a booger hanging out of my nose - tell me. Don't let me walk around all day with it hanging out and grossing everyone out. It's not negative to say, "Dude ya'got a boog hanging out your nose." That's telling me something I need to hear for my own good. Grow up and be an adult and stop whining about negativity. We need negativity - as it serves a purpose. It shows us what is wrong so we can fix it. Developers DEFINITELY need to hear negative feedback. Maybe if Smith had listened P11 wouldn't have tanked.
JAG posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 5:50 PM
bwldrd posted at 5:49PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405291
Quote "But remember, nobody is forcing you to upgrade, you can remain in the past with old technologies and they will keep working as normal."
Unless bondware does what SM did with Poser Game Designer and kill the licensing servers for 11 without giving anyone an option of an offline license or executable, that would keep working after they killed their activation servers. Then 11 would be just as useless. And don't tell me 2014 will still work I know that, but the Game Designer functions won't.
But I digress, due to that being off topic.
BOOM! And I second that point. I got burned on Game Dev myself. Still peeved on that one. Violation (clearly) of the EULA with regard to Smith. Were I a rich man I've had filed suit over that just for the principal of it. Corporations do what they want because us humble peons can't afford to go after them in the courts. Must be nice, huh?
JAG posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 6:07 PM
RobZhena posted at 5:51PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405301
@DAG: So far as I can tell, the ONLY reason to move to Poser 12 is much better Superfly. Do you even use Superfly? I don't, because I always thought it was way too complicated and way too slow. They fixed the slow. I still won't use it. If you don't use Superfly, this whole thread is moot.
Yeah I am with you on Superfly being terrible. I said that with 11 while on the beta team with Smith. I wasn't alone. The Poser development team fixates for some reason. They get something in their heads and they push forward on it no matter what obstacles or common sense get in the way. I get it that they wanted a better engine to compete with DAZ and iray, but wouldn't it have been easier to build a converter/bridge to get into Octane (oh wait...already exists - see Octane site)...or implementing iRay for themselves? So many engines out there and options...superfly is horrid. It remains horrid. And the arguments over materials is moot as Superfly doesn't use old poser materials worth a crap - so materials becomes a problem anyway.
But yes, it is moot in that way. I see your point. I only started this rant to try and make inroads and points with the development team. But just as they did at Smith, they're still not listening. Fixated and convinced they're advancing the software...while the rest of the industry passes them up and their customers abandon ship. Back up...take a breath...and absorb the fact that Poser already failed with 11 and that's why Smith dumped it. Companies don't put 10 years into a project and toss it out if its making them money. Smith dumped Poser because 11 failed to meet with expectations with regard to profits. They put plenty of fancy spin on their reasons but we all know it's money. So if the development team failed at Smith, shouldn't that tell Bondware to pursue a different avenue of development if they want to save the program? Nope, they hired in the same people and are pursuing the same path. I don't get it. I won't ever. Fixation and denial of negative points. It leads to brick walls. They don't want to hear that they failed dramatically with 11. They don't want to admit that and they're not going to. They will continue on their path till Bondware yanks the plug on them just like Smith did. Change course. Do something new and better than your competitors. If you're not capable of doing that - you've already lost the battle and the war.
Tell us oh mighty developers of Poser...what grand and totally innovative features should we expect in the next year for Poser? I've seen nothing so far. I'm curious to know in what direction they are traveling at this point.
Apparently I angered Charles yesterday. It was not my intent. I've already apologized to him to some extent, but I will not retract my criticisms of how the program is being developed (or lack thereof). I will not apologize for laying hard truths out. As a 25 year customer of this software I will not apologize for pointing out what I see as the systematic death of it. I love Poser. It pains me to see it tanking. It is the equivalent of watching someone drown while standing there with a life-saver. I'm saying what I'm saying in hopes of my words being a flotation device to save Poser from drowning. I know it won't. I've been shouting for years now and all I do is anger the very people who should be listening and invite the trolling of less qualified complainers.
Perhaps I'm done...perhaps not.
shvrdavid posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 7:46 PM
- Every single 3D program company out there is moving towards compatibility.
This is so far from the truth it is scary.
Go tell Kim Davidson of Side Effects that he needs to follow your path of wisdom (or Houdini wont make it), and see how far you get with that argument. By the way, Houdini is one of the most advanced 3d programs out there. Complex Houdini scenes are not compatible with any other program. Houdini is doing fine, and has displaced names like IDL, Autodesk, etc, blatantly going against what you claim is the only way to go.
The same thing can be said about Blender as well. You mock Cycles, yet it is turning out to be one of the best render engines going. Yes, Brecth took a few years off to write another render engine, but he is back and Cycles has made huge progress. Superfly in Poser 12 is taking advantage of Cycles new features, and the speed increases alone are tremendous from the last version.
You have been saying for years that Poser is going to die and yet here you are saying the same thing yet again, years later.
You killed that horse years ago, stop beating it.....
Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->
DCArt posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 7:57 PM
I'm sorry ... but you are misinformed in many of your claims.
The one plugin, GoZ, has had a glitch for over two years that they claim they can't fix that renders the use of the SubD export feature absolutely useless
The issue isn't with GoZ. The issue is the very core of how Poser works. This has been explained to you several times. Poser was built on technology that split the mesh into individual groups once it was turned into a figure. They are now moving toward a TRUE unimesh. No more body part groups to deal with. A full mesh and a skeleton. This will not be a trivial change as it will touch every aspect of Poser. Several have already tried to explain this to you. You are the one who isn't listening.
and now they're cutting off their only other real importer (DSON) as well as shutting down every existing Python 2.0 based plugin.
Python 2 has reached END OF LIFE. No more support. What else are they supposed to do? Again, you aren't listening.
Smith dumping the program should be enough to tell you 11 didn't sell very well.
Sorry. Misinformed. Graphics division was doing just fine.
Remember how cool it was when Smith introduced cloth simulation? Where are the innovations?
Smith didn't add the cloth sim. Curious Labs did 5 years before SM was in the picture. That's right. The original Poser team, some of who are now working with Bondware.
You cannot tell me with a straight face that Bondware is moving Poser forward and advancing it.
They are, but with a much smaller team than SM had when all of those innovations were added. Going with unimesh is moving foward. Going to Python 3 is moving forward. Going with a raytrace rendering engine with PBR capability is moving forward. Improving rigging and content creation tools is moving forward.
They have not released one single new feature that is of any consequence since acquiring the program.
Care to share which new features of any consequence Smith Micro added after they let the original team go in 2016? I'm waiting. 8-)
What's the problem with negativity? That's the problem with the younger generations - you all live in this fantasy world where everything has to be unicorns and rainbows or it's too terrible to handle.
Doesn't apply to this chick. I'm old enough to be your mother.
ghostship2 posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 8:52 PM
D O N ' T F E E D T H E T R O L L
W10, Ryzen 5 1600x, 16Gb,RTX2060Super+GTX980, PP11, 11.3.740
Miss B posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 8:53 PM
A_Sunbeam posted at 8:49PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405252
Maybe, at 81, I count as an antique?
No, I definitely prefer vintage . . . and you're not that much older than me. ~sheesh, I'm NOT the oldest on this forum~
_______________
OK . . . Where's my chocolate?
randym77 posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 9:15 PM
He's been informed that most people here are older than he is, but he's still ranting about the "younger generation." ?
Smith Micro had some revenue issues, but they had nothing to do with Poser. Graphics in general was a drop in the bucket compared to their other divisions. They took a bath on their wireless/mobile stuff, which is massive compared to Poser.
DCArt posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 9:34 PM
randym77 posted at 9:31PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405325
He's been informed that most people here are older than he is, but he's still ranting about the "younger generation." ?
Smith Micro had some revenue issues, but they had nothing to do with Poser. Graphics in general was a drop in the bucket compared to their other divisions. They took a bath on their wireless/mobile stuff, which is massive compared to Poser.
Exactly right. The IT division had a couple of very poor years. Graphics was doing fine. But being that SM was in a world of hurt at the time they had to cut expenses. The entire graphics team was let go, in favor of using developers where labor was cheaper. As a result, not much was done with Poser from the time that the original team was let go to the time that Bondware acquired it and that was why sales were dropping. Three years passed before Bondware took it over, and Poser sales were reduced to barely anything because nothing was being done to it.
Facts matter.
DCArt posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 9:35 PM
DCArt posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 9:37 PM
Miss B posted at 9:37PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405323
A_Sunbeam posted at 8:49PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405252
Maybe, at 81, I count as an antique?
No, I definitely prefer vintage . . . and you're not that much older than me. ~sheesh, I'm NOT the oldest on this forum~
OK. You guys win. LOL
ssgbryan posted Fri, 20 November 2020 at 10:27 PM
JAG posted at 9:56PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405306
Clearly you simply don't have the comprehensive skill set to understand the point of this thread. I don't have the will or patients to explain economics and business to you. Take a class. I'm not whining about my own decisions. My DAZ content still works just fine - in DAZ studio and my older Poser editions. I'm pointing out that limiting compatibility is not good for Poser. DAZ and Iclone are both expanding their compatibility features and pipelines (plugins and bridges) while Poser is continuing to consolidate and cut-off any and all extra features and plugins. I mean they literally just upended every Python plugin for the program to date. In simpler terms, Poser is going the OPPOSITE direction of every other 3D developer. Doesn't that strike you as rather dumb? Especially when other companies are succeeding and Poser is being dumped by Smith due to poor sales? Economics man...economics!
Kid, your understanding of software development (and associated software legal issues) is non-existent. And yes, you are whining about your decisions.
I have a business degree too. I suspect I have run larger organizations than you have. I know I have been involved in larger software development projects than you have. BTW, Economics isn't science - it is opinion, with numbers attached.
To review..... Python 2 is dead - there is nothing you can do about that. FBX is the future, as is PBR. I would prefer that Bondware go will a full Cycles render engine, (so we can use those sweet, sweet 16Gb RX 6000 series GPUs) but we aren't there yet.
The DSON importer won't be updated for the same reason Apple refused to sign off on Nvidia 2000 series drivers for OSX. It is about company politics. It isn't a technical issue. For a closer analogy - See OS/2 and Win32s compatibility.
If you want to use your DS content in Poser, you can (I do it all the time - I have spent thousands on DS content myself - filling spaces that Poser vendors have chosen to ignore). Of course, It will take a little bit of work on your part, but that is the case with any 3d asset that isn't native to a program.
If that is too much work, remember, Poser does have a Make Art button.....
Or just go use Daz Studio. Just don't forget that:
Liquid_Ice posted Sat, 21 November 2020 at 2:04 AM
Vintage? Wisdom I would like to call you. People can learn from you a lot :)
Miss B posted at 2:03AM Sat, 21 November 2020 - #4405323
A_Sunbeam posted at 8:49PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405252
Maybe, at 81, I count as an antique?
No, I definitely prefer vintage . . . and you're not that much older than me. ~sheesh, I'm NOT the oldest on this forum~
Liquid_Ice posted Sat, 21 November 2020 at 2:12 AM
Whatever your view I hope we can all agree that at least the new poser owners have a positive view and attitude and that is also very refreshing :)
A_Sunbeam posted Sat, 21 November 2020 at 4:03 AM
I'm still hoping JAG will show us some of his Poser work.
wolf359 posted Sat, 21 November 2020 at 7:11 AM
@ssgbryan
The Problem with this (often repeated), gratuitous assertion of yours is as follows:
The Majority of the current Daz studio user base has never used poser and are thus not concerned with any "feature parity" with poser.?
Only the ability to use the latest Genesis models/content natively. and that does not cost $750 USD as people's costs will vary greatly depending on what bundles etc. they choose to buy during whatever sale promotion at Daz or here at the RMP.?
A new user can download Daz studio for ZERO USD and get the base version of the latest Genesis models and spend $225 USD on whatever content Daz has in one of their endless sales. and still not have reached the initial cost of buying poser 12 for $249.?
So this 700+ USD number, you keep repeating, is completey arbitrary & based on personal decisions you chose to make and have nothing to do with what others may choose to buy for their Daz studio usage.
By the way, Houdini is one of the most advanced 3d programs out >there. Complex Houdini scenes are not compatible with any other >program
Not entirely true:?
https://www.sidefx.com/products/houdini-engine/
Of course the truly complex procedural native stuff needs to be done within houdini but its not exactly a closed garden.
Bondware has decided to move away from maintaining third party import export plugins( poser fusion, DSON)and focus on the core application with a token FBX importer/exporter.
That is fine because the core program and its content and figures needs to be competitive before people outside of the poser ecosystem find them desirable for use in other programs....is that the case at present????
The harsh truth of the matter is the neither Iclone CC3 figures nor the Mighty Genesis figures from Daz are widely used by professional Gaming or Film/TV/VFX studios who use Maya ,Houdini or even Blender.
Go on... have a look at any offcial demo Reel by Autodesk, SideFX the Foundry or any amazing Game engine Demo by Epic games or Unity and you wont find a Daz or Iclone/CC3 figure anywhere.?
So this endless debate about "compatibility" for SOME ,in the poser community has only ever been about one thing.
The Desire/Demand to use the Daz genesis models without leaving the myopic little comfort bubble of Poser.
ssgbryan posted Sat, 21 November 2020 at 12:45 PM
For a person that doesn't use Poser, you certainly spend a lot of time in the Poser forums.
Neither you nor I care what DS users do.
The OP is whining about using DS content in Poser. I suggested that the OP move to DS, and get ready to spend for scripts to replicate the features that they appear to be used to. Unlike you, I have already been down that rabbit hole, the cost is $750. I already provided you a list of the scripts, the cost, and the Poser feature they duplicate.
And your only retort was that you didn't need those features - which wasn't the issue.
wolf359 posted Sat, 21 November 2020 at 1:59 PM
ssgbryan posted at 1:56PM Sat, 21 November 2020 - #4405418
For a person that doesn't use Poser, you certainly spend a lot of time in the Poser forums.
Neither you nor I care what DS users do.
The OP is whining about using DS content in Poser. I suggested that the OP move to DS, and get ready to spend for scripts to replicate the features that they appear to be used to. Unlike you, I have already been down that rabbit hole, the cost is $750. I already provided you a list of the scripts, the cost, and the Poser feature they duplicate.
And your only retort was that you didn't need >those features - which wasn't the issue.
Again you are assuming that everyone who switches to Daz studio will consider it useless unless he/she can relpicate every single feature in poser.
while ignoring the fact that most people make the switch to use the Genesis* figures........period.?
Not to replicate the poser morph brush or dependancy editor or face chips etc. and certainly not to replicate posers ancient pose dials and vestgial animation tools.
But to have REAL Genesis 8 girls/guys with native HD & JCM morphs and Iray renders and BTW, be able to use 99 percent of their legacy V4/M4 content via autofit and UV switching. Before even Buying alot of content.
BTW, you really do not need a morph brush to fix "poke through" if you model your clothing correctly, as I Did for Genesis and now the the CC3 bases, and your rigging /weighting system actually works properly.
Azath posted Sat, 21 November 2020 at 7:03 PM
Both could learn from one another , instead that each hides in hes little dark room. There was a time where DS could not be without Poser, a time where DS learned from poser. I also believe that allot others learned from Poser as well ... in a way they took the best out of it to grow , the way it seems now is that Poser can not learn from others to grow , so this might be the result of what is happening.
Poser will not be able to make a new start from scratch , not the way it is now , and it is a start from scratch , so how would one expect Poser to catch up on the ones who grew on Poser and developed them selves further? For sure not with a new Doll with the few remains of Creators. these will just vanish in the silence.
Most that have discussions in here are not even Potential creators just some that try giving Ideas to those , But were are they , are they even Listening ? Some might but for sure not enough.
At the end it will not be up to Bondware on how Poser will end up it will be on the engagements of the users . So my point would be learn from others like they learned from you to make it better. The splitting of Poser and DS was already a mistake in first hand and there is as much fault in Poser as in DS that it came to this Point . I guess from the Poser side it is just Jealousy.
So actually it does not matter if one Uses poser or not in these forums as we can learn from one another .
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 4:52 AM
shvrdavid posted at 4:45AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405315
- Every single 3D program company out there is moving towards compatibility.
This is so far from the truth it is scary.
Go tell Kim Davidson of Side Effects that he needs to follow your path of wisdom (or Houdini wont make it), and see how far you get with that argument. By the way, Houdini is one of the most advanced 3d programs out there. Complex Houdini scenes are not compatible with any other program. Houdini is doing fine, and has displaced names like IDL, Autodesk, etc, blatantly going against what you claim is the only way to go.
The same thing can be said about Blender as well. You mock Cycles, yet it is turning out to be one of the best render engines going. Yes, Brecth took a few years off to write another render engine, but he is back and Cycles has made huge progress. Superfly in Poser 12 is taking advantage of Cycles new features, and the speed increases alone are tremendous from the last version.
You have been saying for years that Poser is going to die and yet here you are saying the same thing yet again, years later.
You killed that horse years ago, stop beating it.....
So Blender, Maya, Adobe, Iclone, DAZ, all game engines, FBX format, Max and so on...yeah, I'm just stupid. Nobody really has an all-in-one system thus compatibility is a means of life. Were it not, then why do we have file format compatibility. I mean if everything could be done in one program, why do we have FBX, OBJ, and so on? You're simply an uneducated person clearly talking out of their wrong hole.
And WTF are you talking about I been saying Poser was dead for years? Oh wait, I have...since Smith let me work on P11 beta. Yes, I have been. And I was right - hence how Bondware ended up with it - aka, Smith didn't want it no more - because------wait for it-------it was dead. Thank you. By dead I mean not making a profit hence eventually it will be left on the side of the road in a ditch wrapped in a tarp most likely. So again...YOU = DON'T KNOW WHAT IS BEING TALKED ABOUT. Shhh...adults talking.
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:09 AM
Deecey posted at 4:54AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405316
I'm sorry ... but you are misinformed in many of your claims.
The one plugin, GoZ, has had a glitch for over two years that they claim they can't fix that renders the use of the SubD export feature absolutely useless
The issue isn't with GoZ. The issue is the very core of how Poser works. This has been explained to you several times. Poser was built on technology that split the mesh into individual groups once it was turned into a figure. They are now moving toward a TRUE unimesh. No more body part groups to deal with. A full mesh and a skeleton. This will not be a trivial change as it will touch every aspect of Poser. Several have already tried to explain this to you. You are the one who isn't listening. I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS WITH GOZ - I SAID IT WAS WITH POSER AND I HAVE AN EMAIL FROM PIXOLOGIC TO BACK THAT STATEMENT UP. I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WENT WRONG BECAUSE CHARLES EXPLAINED IT TO ME WHEN WE DISCUSSED IT IN DEPTH A YEAR OR SO BACK. POSER ISN'T READING THE DATA COMING BACK FROM Z CORRECTLY AND THUS CANNOT ACCURATELY REALIGN THE SUBDIVIDED SHAPE. I ALSO HAVE EMAILS FROM CHARLES TO BACK THAT UP.
and now they're cutting off their only other real importer (DSON) as well as shutting down every existing Python 2.0 based plugin.
Python 2 has reached END OF LIFE. No more support. What else are they supposed to do? Again, you aren't listening. OH I'M LISTENING. I JUST SAID IF PYTHON 2 CAN'T BE KEPT FUNCTIONAL ALONG WITH THE 3 UPDATE (AND BEFORE YOU ARGUE ON THE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY ISSUE YOU MIGHT WANT TO GOOGLE IT...THEY'RE WORKING ON MAKING BOTH WORK ON SAME MACHINE) --- THEN I SUGGESTED CREATING A DSON-LIKE (AS IN MADE AND CONTROLLED BY BONDWARE) TO IMPORT DAZ CONTENT. DON'T TELL ME IT CAN'T BE DONE. DAZ WROTE DSON TO IMPORT CONTENT INTO POSER. POSER CAN RUN THAT RIGHT BACKWARDS WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST LEGAL ISSUE. AS LONG AS THEY DON'T TAMPER WITH DAZ CODE OR DUPLICATE DAZ CODE IT IS LEGAL. OTHERWISE SMITH WOULD HAVE SUED DAZ OVER DSON.
Smith dumping the program should be enough to tell you 11 didn't sell very well.
Sorry. Misinformed. Graphics division was doing just fine. REALLY? 'CAUSE CORPORATIONS OFTEN SHUT DOWN SOFTWARE PROGRAMS THAT ARE MAKING THEM A LOT OF MONEY. THAT'S JUST COMMON PRACTICE I'D SAY - RIGHT? 'CAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SPOUTING. UTTER BS! I WILL CALL IT WHAT IT IS. GRAPHICS DIVISION WAS DOING WELL BUT POSER WASN'T AND IT WAS COSTING TOO MUCH TO CONTINUE DEVELOPMENT. I HAVE AN EMAIL FROM SMITH MICRO BACKING THAT ONE UP. GO AHEAD AND SAY IT AGAIN BUT DON'T CRY WHEN YOUR PANTS CATCH FLAME.
Remember how cool it was when Smith introduced cloth simulation? Where are the innovations?
Smith didn't add the cloth sim. Curious Labs did 5 years before SM was in the picture. That's right. The original Poser team, some of who are now working with Bondware. MY SINCERE APOLOGIES. I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS TALKING TO AN IDIOT. CLOTHING SIMULATION - NOT CLOTHING. CLOTHING AS IN CONFORMING WAS ADDED BY CURIOUS LABS BUT CLOTH SIMULATION WAS NOT ADDED UNTIL SMITH TOOK OVER AND IT DEBUTED WITH POSER PRO 2010 GO SEE HERE UNINFORMED PERSON: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poser BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. READ AND WEEP OVER YOUR IGNORANCE.
You cannot tell me with a straight face that Bondware is moving Poser forward and advancing it.
They are, but with a much smaller team than SM had when all of those innovations were added. Going with unimesh is moving foward. Going to Python 3 is moving forward. Going with a raytrace rendering engine with PBR capability is moving forward. Improving rigging and content creation tools is moving forward. I'M NOT SAYING WHAT THEY'RE DOING ISN'T AN IMPROVMENT BUT IT'S NOT INNOVATING. WE NEED NEW FEATURES NOT FIXES FOR OLD ONES. WHILE THIS SMALLER TEAM PIECES TOGETHER FIXES AND BUG-KILLS, THE OTHER COMPETITION COMPANIES ARE BLOWING PAST THEM AND LEAVING POSER BEHIND. YOU CANNOT ARGUE THAT. IT'S UTTER FACTS. COMPARE DAZ FEATURES TO POSER CURRENTLY! DAZ IS FREE! IF YOU CAN'T HOLD OUT MORE FEATURES THAN A FREEWARE THEN YOU'RE NOT GONNA SELL PAY-SOFTWARE. YOU MUST INNOVATE. IF THE CURRENT TEAM CAN'T MANAGE THAT THEN POSER WILL DIE. ARGUE THAT PLEASE.
They have not released one single new feature that is of any consequence since acquiring the program.
Care to share which new features of any consequence Smith Micro added after they let the original team go in 2016? I'm waiting. 8-) I'M NOT. WHY YOU THINK I'M STILL WORKING ON P10 MAN?! THEY MESSED UP LETTING THAT ORIGINAL TEAM GO. I'M NOT DEFENDING SMITH MICRO. WHERE THE HECK DID YOU GET THAT? I BASHED P11 AND I QUIT THEIR BETA TEAM. DID YOU MIX ME UP WITH SOMEBODY ELSE?
What's the problem with negativity? That's the problem with the younger generations - you all live in this fantasy world where everything has to be unicorns and rainbows or it's too terrible to handle.
Doesn't apply to this chick. I'm old enough to be your mother. WELL GRANDMA --- AND I SAY THAT BECAUSE I'M A GRANDPA AND IF YOU'RE OLDER THAN ME WELL IT SHOULDN'T BE AN INSULT - CLEARLY THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU DON'T COMPREHEND THE USEFULNESS OF POINTING OUT THINGS THAT AREN'T RIGHT OR THAT HAVE FAILED. SO WHEN YOU GET A MINUTE, GO BACK AND SEE IF YOU CAN SWAT DOWN MY COUNTER-POINTS. THIS SHOULD BE AMUSING AND BY AMUSING I MEAN MAKING ME LAUGH AS YOU FLOUNDER TO CONTRADICT FACTS.
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:12 AM
randym77 posted at 5:11AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405325
He's been informed that most people here are older than he is, but he's still ranting about the "younger generation." ?
Smith Micro had some revenue issues, but they had nothing to do with Poser. Graphics in general was a drop in the bucket compared to their other divisions. They took a bath on their wireless/mobile stuff, which is massive compared to Poser.
I THANK YOU FOR BACKING MY POINT ON SMITH AND PROFITS. I HAVE AN EMAIL FROM SOMEONE ON THEIR SUPPORT TEAM TELLING ME WHY THEY DROPPED THE PROGRAM. IT WAS NOT PROFITABLE AFTER 11 RELEASED - NOT ENOUGH TO WARRANT THEIR INTEREST FURTHER AT LEAST.
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:18 AM
ssgbryan posted at 5:13AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405344
JAG posted at 9:56PM Fri, 20 November 2020 - #4405306
Clearly you simply don't have the comprehensive skill set to understand the point of this thread. I don't have the will or patients to explain economics and business to you. Take a class. I'm not whining about my own decisions. My DAZ content still works just fine - in DAZ studio and my older Poser editions. I'm pointing out that limiting compatibility is not good for Poser. DAZ and Iclone are both expanding their compatibility features and pipelines (plugins and bridges) while Poser is continuing to consolidate and cut-off any and all extra features and plugins. I mean they literally just upended every Python plugin for the program to date. In simpler terms, Poser is going the OPPOSITE direction of every other 3D developer. Doesn't that strike you as rather dumb? Especially when other companies are succeeding and Poser is being dumped by Smith due to poor sales? Economics man...economics!
Kid, your understanding of software development (and associated software legal issues) is non-existent. And yes, you are whining about your decisions.
I'M A KID NOW? REALLY? INTERESTING. WELL GRAM-PAH YOUR DEGREE IS NICE BUT IT DOES NOT TRUMP MY MASTERS IN HISTORY. SORRY BUT WHILE ITS NOT QUITE THE BUSINESS DEGREE I KNOW IT STILL ENTITLES ME TO KNOW HOW TO READ AND RESEARCH. BUSINESS IS OPINION.
I have a business degree too. I suspect I have run larger organizations than you have. I know I have been involved in larger software development projects than you have. BTW, Economics isn't science - it is opinion, with numbers attached.
To review..... Python 2 is dead - there is nothing you can do about that. FBX is the future, as is PBR. I would prefer that Bondware go will a full Cycles render engine, (so we can use those sweet, sweet 16Gb RX 6000 series GPUs) but we aren't there yet.
YEP...AND STILL WAITING...AND WAITING...AND OH THERE WENT DAZ...CRAP!
The DSON importer won't be updated for the same reason Apple refused to sign off on Nvidia 2000 series drivers for OSX. It is about company politics. It isn't a technical issue. For a closer analogy - See OS/2 and Win32s compatibility.
ON THIS I MIGHT ACTUALLY AGREE.
If you want to use your DS content in Poser, you can (I do it all the time - I have spent thousands on DS content myself - filling spaces that Poser vendors have chosen to ignore). Of course, It will take a little bit of work on your part, but that is the case with any 3d asset that isn't native to a program.
If that is too much work, remember, Poser does have a Make Art button.....
Or just go use Daz Studio. Just don't forget that:
- You will need to spend about $750 in 3rd party scripts to reach rough compatibility. (That number was NOT picked out of a hat.)
- DS is still single-threaded. Have fun dealing with every function hanging off of the main thread.
- You will be busy for a while trying to figure out how to use their new thingie (filament) with their render engine (and paying for the privilege).
ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. LINK ME TO WHERE IT STATES YOU NEED $750 WORTH OF CONTENT TO GET ROUGH COMPATIBILITY? ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ICLONE? I WOULD AGREE THERE. DAZ DOES NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING OUT OF THE BOX AND IT ACTUALLY DOES MORE THAN POSER CURRENTLY. IT STILL SUCKS AND I HATE THE UI AND TREE DESIGN BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH PRICES. I HAVE NOT A SINGLE SCRIPT PLUGGED INTO MINE OTHER THAN DSON WHICH IS ALSO FREE OR WAS FOR ME. SINGLE THREAD MAYBE BUT THE IRAY STILL RENDERS FASTER THAN FIREFLY. I HAVE TESTED THAT LITTLE QUESTION SEVERAL TIMES. I STILL DON'T GET NUMBER THREE. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT WITH THIS PAID RENDER ENGINE?
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:26 AM
Liquid_Ice posted at 5:25AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405364
Whatever your view I hope we can all agree that at least the new poser owners have a positive view and attitude and that is also very refreshing :)
HAHAHAHAHAHA! WE WILL HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THAT ONE. APPARENTLY YOU HAVEN'T SAID SOMETHING THAT THEY DIDN'T LIKE QUITE YET.
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:28 AM
A_Sunbeam posted at 5:26AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405370
I'm still hoping JAG will show us some of his Poser work.
I'M STILL HOPING YOU'LL REALIZE YOU HAVE NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE (OR EVEN OFFENSIVE) TO OFFER TO THIS THREAD SO WHY ARE YOU POSTING? I COULD POST THE MOST PICTURE-PERFECT IMAGE TO SPITE YOU AND YOU'D STILL NOT LIKE ME OR WANT TO HEAR WHAT I HAVE TO SAY NOR ADMIT I'M RIGHT. SO WHY WOULD I BOTHER POSTING SOMETHING NEW? I ALREADY STATED MY WORK IS RATHER BORING AND NON-ARTISTIC. I DO ACCIDENT RECREATIONS AND BUILDING DESIGN SAMPLES. BORING. WHICH IF I POSTED YOU'D BERATE FOR BEING SUCH. I'M NOT FALLING INTO A GOAD. NICE TRY. COME BACK WHEN YOU HAVE VALUE TO THE CONVERSATION.
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:31 AM
wolf359 posted at 5:29AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405382
@ssgbryan
The Problem with this (often repeated), gratuitous assertion of yours is as follows:
The Majority of the current Daz studio user base has never used poser and are thus not concerned with any "feature parity" with poser.?
Only the ability to use the latest Genesis models/content natively. and that does not cost $750 USD as people's costs will vary greatly depending on what bundles etc. they choose to buy during whatever sale promotion at Daz or here at the RMP.?
A new user can download Daz studio for ZERO USD and get the base version of the latest Genesis models and spend $225 USD on whatever content Daz has in one of their endless sales. and still not have reached the initial cost of buying poser 12 for $249.?
So this 700+ USD number, you keep repeating, is completey arbitrary & based on personal decisions you chose to make and have nothing to do with what others may choose to buy for their Daz studio usage.
By the way, Houdini is one of the most advanced 3d programs out >there. Complex Houdini scenes are not compatible with any other >program
Not entirely true:?
https://www.sidefx.com/products/houdini-engine/
Of course the truly complex procedural native stuff needs to be done within houdini but its not exactly a closed garden.
Bondware has decided to move away from maintaining third party import export plugins( poser fusion, DSON)and focus on the core application with a token FBX importer/exporter.
That is fine because the core program and its content and figures needs to be competitive before people outside of the poser ecosystem find them desirable for use in other programs....is that the case at present????
The harsh truth of the matter is the neither Iclone CC3 figures nor the Mighty Genesis figures from Daz are widely used by professional Gaming or Film/TV/VFX studios who use Maya ,Houdini or even Blender.
Go on... have a look at any offcial demo Reel by Autodesk, SideFX the Foundry or any amazing Game engine Demo by Epic games or Unity and you wont find a Daz or Iclone/CC3 figure anywhere.?
So this endless debate about "compatibility" for SOME ,in the poser community has only ever been about one thing.
The Desire/Demand to use the Daz genesis models without leaving the myopic little comfort bubble of Poser.
WOW. I'M GONNA SAY I'M IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT WITH EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID. FINALLY SOMEBODY WITH SOME INTELLIGENCE. THANKS FOR GIGGING ON THAT $700 DOLLAR THING TOO. WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT? DAZ IS FREEWARE FROM THE FLOOR UP. THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY ON CONTENT NOT THE ACTUAL SOFTWARE. THEY TRIED ONCE...AND IT FLOPPED SO HARD IT HURT. THANK YOU FOR BACKING ME UP AND WITH FACTS TOO!
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:33 AM
ssgbryan posted at 5:31AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405418
For a person that doesn't use Poser, you certainly spend a lot of time in the Poser forums.
Neither you nor I care what DS users do.
The OP is whining about using DS content in Poser. I suggested that the OP move to DS, and get ready to spend for scripts to replicate the features that they appear to be used to. Unlike you, I have already been down that rabbit hole, the cost is $750. I already provided you a list of the scripts, the cost, and the Poser feature they duplicate.
And your only retort was that you didn't need those features - which wasn't the issue.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHAT PLUGINS OR SCRIPTS FOR DAZ STUDIO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? IT'S NONSENSE. I'M NOT SURE I'M BOTHERING TO EVEN ANSWER YOU PAST THIS.
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:34 AM
wolf359 posted at 5:33AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405423
ssgbryan posted at 1:56PM Sat, 21 November 2020 - #4405418
For a person that doesn't use Poser, you certainly spend a lot of time in the Poser forums.
Neither you nor I care what DS users do.
The OP is whining about using DS content in Poser. I suggested that the OP move to DS, and get ready to spend for scripts to replicate the features that they appear to be used to. Unlike you, I have already been down that rabbit hole, the cost is $750. I already provided you a list of the scripts, the cost, and the Poser feature they duplicate.
And your only retort was that you didn't need >those features - which wasn't the issue.
Again you are assuming that everyone who switches to Daz studio will consider it useless unless he/she can relpicate every single feature in poser.
while ignoring the fact that most people make the switch to use the Genesis* figures........period.?
Not to replicate the poser morph brush or dependancy editor or face chips etc. and certainly not to replicate posers ancient pose dials and vestgial animation tools.
But to have REAL Genesis 8 girls/guys with native HD & JCM morphs and Iray renders and BTW, be able to use 99 percent of their legacy V4/M4 content via autofit and UV switching. Before even Buying alot of content.
BTW, you really do not need a morph brush to fix "poke through" if you model your clothing correctly, as I Did for Genesis and now the the CC3 bases, and your rigging /weighting system actually works properly.
HERE! HERE! WELL SAID AND I AGREE IN TOTALITY. HAS ANYONE REALLY EVER USED THE MORPH BRUSH? THAT'S WHY I GOT Z AND GOZ PLUGIN. THAT BRUSH TOOL IS OKAY IN A BIND BUT IT'S BY FAR NOT A MAJOR FEATURE. IT COULD BE GONE TOMORROW AND I DOUBT IT WOULD BE MISSED.
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:36 AM
Azath posted at 5:36AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405437
Both could learn from one another , instead that each hides in hes little dark room. There was a time where DS could not be without Poser, a time where DS learned from poser. I also believe that allot others learned from Poser as well ... in a way they took the best out of it to grow , the way it seems now is that Poser can not learn from others to grow , so this might be the result of what is happening.
Poser will not be able to make a new start from scratch , not the way it is now , and it is a start from scratch , so how would one expect Poser to catch up on the ones who grew on Poser and developed them selves further? For sure not with a new Doll with the few remains of Creators. these will just vanish in the silence.
Most that have discussions in here are not even Potential creators just some that try giving Ideas to those , But were are they , are they even Listening ? Some might but for sure not enough.
At the end it will not be up to Bondware on how Poser will end up it will be on the engagements of the users . So my point would be learn from others like they learned from you to make it better. The splitting of Poser and DS was already a mistake in first hand and there is as much fault in Poser as in DS that it came to this Point . I guess from the Poser side it is just Jealousy.
So actually it does not matter if one Uses poser or not in these forums as we can learn from one another .
IMAGINE ME JUMPING UP AND DOWN AND SCREAMING, "YES, YES, AND YES!" THANK YOU FOR THE KINDLY STATED FACTS. I APPRECIATE YOU BACKING ME UP. THANK YOU!
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:43 AM
ANGRY MAN TYPE IN ALL CAPS! GRRRR! BAHHHH! HUMBUG! GET OFF MY LAWN! STUPID KIDS!
I'VE ENJOYED THE THREAD TREMENDOUSLY BUT I'M NOT SURE I'LL BE RESPONDING FURTHER. THE ONLY PEOPLE HERE ARE ENGAGED IN TRYING TO GOAD ME, LYING OUTRIGHT ABOUT POSER AND COMPETITOR DETAILS, OR THEY'RE AGREEING WITH ME (YES IT HAPPENS SOMETIMES). SO I LEAVE YOU ALL WITH ONE PARTING POINT;
The truth and facts do not give a rotten darn about your precious feelings or opinions. Like feelings and opinions - everyone has one and most smell of a particularly foul orifice. Don't bash the facts even if you don't like them because one day you may need them to save you. Peace-out! (Drops mike, exits left and realizes he has more important things to do than school idiots and try to save a dying software from its own management.)
Azath posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:50 AM
randym77 posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 7:04 AM
LOL. I was thinking more "Old man yells at cloud."
Azath posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 8:14 AM
wolf359 posted at 8:10AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405473
BTW, you really do not need a morph brush to fix "poke through" if you model your clothing correctly, as I Did for Genesis and now the the CC3 bases, and your rigging /weighting system actually works properly.
Ok better not shout that out loud else that are going to start removing even more feature ( Short cut to fix ) and then it will end up to be a Major upgrade , I mean downgrade ! Poser might end up with the primary features of Poser 4 if they continue removing as much. You can also sell something as new when you Downgraded it :)
Azath posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 8:26 AM
wolf359 posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 11:37 AM
better not shout that out loud else that are going to start removing >even more feature ( Short cut to fix ) and then it will end up to be >a Major upgrade , I mean downgrade ! Poser might end up with the >primary >features of Poser 4
The morph brush is a decent feature ,I have tried it in my old Poser pro 2014.?
I ony mentioned it because certain people like to put forth the narrative that Migrating to Daz studio for true Genesis access will be some horrible step backward because DS has no morph brush as though not having one makes a program unusable when properly modeled conformers and cloth weighting/rigging options make the need for an after the fact morph brush repair rather moot.?
Seriously if I still actually bought figure clothing, instead a creating it myself, and it had major poke thru I would demand a refund.?
And as far as creating custom figure morphs you can do that much better with the professional Free sculpting toos of Blender if you can't afford Zbrush
Finally I do not dispute or bloody care that some person spent $750 USD on third party tools,for Daz studio.?
However if such a person wishes us to believe that such an expenditure is necccesary for the typical Portrait/Pinup renders that populate the Daz& Poser galleries, then he needs to show us one of his AMAZING DS renders and explain how it was only made possible with $750 dollars of scripts & plugins ?
DustRider posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 3:23 PM
Deecey posted at 4:54AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405316
Smith didn't add the cloth sim. Curious Labs did 5 years before SM was in the picture. That's right. The original Poser team, some of who are now working with Bondware.
JAG posted at 1:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405465
MY SINCERE APOLOGIES. I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS TALKING TO AN IDIOT. CLOTHING SIMULATION - NOT CLOTHING. CLOTHING AS IN CONFORMING WAS ADDED BY CURIOUS LABS BUT CLOTH SIMULATION WAS NOT ADDED UNTIL SMITH TOOK OVER AND IT DEBUTED WITH POSER PRO 2010 GO SEE HERE UNINFORMED PERSON: BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. READ AND WEEP OVER YOUR IGNORANCE.
Uummm .... if you re-read the page you linked to, you will see that Curious Labs introduced dynamic hair and cloth (cloth simulation) with Poser 5 in 2003. It was a huge step forward at the time!
I too might be more interested in getting Poser 12 if there was an easy way to import and use Genesis figures/content even though there are no serious new features or innovation in Poser 12. The lack of inspiring promo images for Poser 12 (except for one very nice image) made it clear to me that I am not a part of the target demographic that the new owners and developers are targeting, and that Poser isn't moving in the same direction I want to go. The lack of being able to easily use the Genesis content I have in Poser, it's clear that I'm not who they want as a customer. Yes, I have quite a bit of V3/V4/G4 and some A3 content which I could use. But to be perfectly honest, these old figures are simply a huge pain in the rear to use compared to Genesis (I recently did a quick G4 render, and wow, I had forgotten all the hoop jumping you have to do to use the older figures).
So in general I agree with your assertions that Poser development has grown a bit stagnant, with very little innovation. However, I will continue to watch with great interest to see if the development plan is to eventually redo a bunch of the underlying code to support modern/standard things like a single uni-mesh figure. However, without significant improvements or innovation, I really can't justify purchasing Poser 12 right now.
ssgbryan posted at 1:27PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405418
For a person that doesn't use Poser, you certainly spend a lot of time in the Poser forums.
Neither you nor I care what DS users do.
The OP is whining about using DS content in Poser. I suggested that the OP move to DS, and get ready to spend for scripts to replicate the features that they appear to be used to. Unlike you, I have already been down that rabbit hole, the cost is $750. I already provided you a list of the scripts, the cost, and the Poser feature they duplicate.
And your only retort was that you didn't need those features - which wasn't the issue.
Once again, I feel compelled to dispute your assertions that it costs $750 to make DS do what poser can do. If you have truly spent thousands of dollars at DAZ, then you know that only someone with more money than good sense ever pays full list price for anything at DAZ. We did go over this once before, you provided a list of needed items, I went through it item by item, provided what the items actually cost me, and which items were not really needed because the functionality exists within DS (where the add-ons just provide simple one click solutions, but the functionality is provided within the DS UI), and I think you also included FaceShop?? to give the same functionality as the Face Room in Poser (something I don't need, don't use in either application). IIRC my bottom line total for DS was less than Poser, and IIRC the discussion was before DAZ bought KeyMate and GraphMate, which are now included in DS for free. When you make these claims, you really should inform people that you are using the full list price (not the price that most DS users would pay), that some of the products aren't really needed but make life easier, and some of the items people might not ever use in either application.
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
WDBeaver posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 3:34 PM
Just to correct the record, Curious Labs Poser 5 is the first version where dynamic clothing was implemented. It was released in 2003.
And you're truncating the argument, Wolf. It was about having all the bells and whistles of Poser when moving to DS, **not **about needing said options for DS to be usable. It had little to do with the mighty G thing, Gray Golem, etc. This happened at the time Genesis first came out (which wasn't that impressive in initial release (which was also true of DS and DS 2). And at that time, the now defunct clothing sim, animation system, and other assorted add ons needed for that functionality were about $700, because in several cases you were also buying 3rd party licences. The base program may have been 'free', but anything beyond that was $$$. DS at that time had fewer features that P4 did; its one trick was Genesis when it came out. You didn't need the add ons if you just wanted to do still renders, but if you wanted dynamic cloth, the animation system which was a bit better than Poser's, the rendering improvements and so on, you had to pay for them. You and I both know you were mad that the Poser animation controls kept getting skipped over release after release. I was too (Full IK/FK system, please....?)
BTW, I'm investigating Blender as part of my pipeline now. Manta Ray is giving me shivers, and I have a 12 core Threadripper for it to throw floats at. Just need to get the renderdarden updated (everything uses AVX instructions, and the older Athlons lack those) and all the distributed renderers installed again.
WDBeaver posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 3:40 PM
And you're correct dustrider, that you could get the addons far cheaper if you shopped and waited. But if you wanted it immediately, you did pay a premium price in many cases. This argument was from the days of DS-2, and those are the standards applied. Present day conditions are far different.
DCArt posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 4:02 PM
Smith didn't add the cloth sim. Curious Labs did 5 years before SM was in the picture. That's right. The original Poser team, some of who are now working with Bondware.
JAG posted at 1:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405465
MY SINCERE APOLOGIES. I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS TALKING TO AN IDIOT. CLOTHING SIMULATION - NOT CLOTHING. CLOTHING AS IN CONFORMING WAS ADDED BY CURIOUS LABS BUT CLOTH SIMULATION WAS NOT ADDED UNTIL SMITH TOOK OVER AND IT DEBUTED WITH POSER PRO 2010 GO SEE HERE UNINFORMED PERSON: BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. READ AND WEEP OVER YOUR IGNORANCE.
ROFL. Perhaps he should look at the Poser 5 manual. Poser 5 was released in 2003 under Curious Labs.
randym77 posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 4:34 PM
Heh. He claims to have experience with Poser back to the mid-'90s, and says anyone who doesn't should shut up.
But...I would think anyone who really did have experience from the mid-90s would remember that Poser 5 gave us the hair room and the cloth room. They were a big freakin' deal. The first dynamic cloth I used were dresses made for Judy and V3.
DCArt posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:10 PM
randym77 posted at 5:09PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405526
Heh. He claims to have experience with Poser back to the mid-'90s, and says anyone who doesn't should shut up.
But...I would think anyone who really did have experience from the mid-90s would remember that Poser 5 gave us the hair room and the cloth room. They were a big freakin' deal. The first dynamic cloth I used were dresses made for Judy and V3.
And the face room as well. I wrote the docs for those three chapters. But I'm the idiot, pay no attention. I must have imagined it. ;-)
DCArt posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 5:54 PM
Care to share which new features of any consequence Smith Micro added after they let the original team go in 2016? I'm waiting. 8-)
I'M NOT. WHY YOU THINK I'M STILL WORKING ON P10 MAN?! THEY MESSED UP LETTING THAT ORIGINAL TEAM GO.
I know. I was one of them. And I will repeat. Poser 11 was doing just fine. The problem was that SM's IT division did poorly for a couple of years. There were layoffs company-wide. To cut costs, the graphics team (most of who were in California) were let go, and they moved graphics programming to Portugal where costs were lower. A couple of other people were added in Pennsylvania as well.
But there was very little done to Poser after the original team was let go (one "point" release and two bug fixes for that in 3 years time) and by the time Bondware acquired it I think the graphics division sales were down to probably 10-20% what they were before the original Poser and Moho teams were let go. Your comment would make sense if you got that email after 2016, when the original team was let go.
All of this is verifiable if you read their annual stock reports from 2016 to 2020, where quarterly and annual sales figures are listed.
wolf359 posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 6:40 PM
This argument was from the days of DS-2, and those are the standards >applied. Present day >conditions are far different.
Thank you!!
To be clear ,IMHO all versions of DS before 4x and the aniMate motion clip system were "less than useful"?
However we are not at DS2/3 of ten years ago
thus ,in the context of a thread/discussion in late Nov 2020,
warning JAG to be prepared to buy $750 worth of plugins if he migrates to DS for the Genesis 8 figures ,is about as intellectually dishonest
as someone warning people off Blender based on the horrible UI conventions of Blender 2.4x?
BTW Blender 2.9 has excellent modeling tools for both organic and hard surface, However I chose to buy the Awesome Hard-ops/boxcutter modeling add-ons from Blender market for $99 USD.
However if I start "warning" people that "Blender is not really Free" because of my personal buying decisions, I would expect to be called out for such duplicity by those skilled Blender users who know better.
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 9:23 PM
DustRider posted at 9:19PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405519
Deecey posted at 4:54AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405316
Smith didn't add the cloth sim. Curious Labs did 5 years before SM was in the picture. That's right. The original Poser team, some of who are now working with Bondware.
JAG posted at 1:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405465
MY SINCERE APOLOGIES. I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS TALKING TO AN IDIOT. CLOTHING SIMULATION - NOT CLOTHING. CLOTHING AS IN CONFORMING WAS ADDED BY CURIOUS LABS BUT CLOTH SIMULATION WAS NOT ADDED UNTIL SMITH TOOK OVER AND IT DEBUTED WITH POSER PRO 2010 GO SEE HERE UNINFORMED PERSON: BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. READ AND WEEP OVER YOUR IGNORANCE.
Uummm .... if you re-read the page you linked to, you will see that Curious Labs introduced dynamic hair and cloth (cloth simulation) with Poser 5 in 2003. It was a huge step forward at the time!
I too might be more interested in getting Poser 12 if there was an easy way to import and use Genesis figures/content even though there are no serious new features or innovation in Poser 12. The lack of inspiring promo images for Poser 12 (except for one very nice image) made it clear to me that I am not a part of the target demographic that the new owners and developers are targeting, and that Poser isn't moving in the same direction I want to go. The lack of being able to easily use the Genesis content I have in Poser, it's clear that I'm not who they want as a customer. Yes, I have quite a bit of V3/V4/G4 and some A3 content which I could use. But to be perfectly honest, these old figures are simply a huge pain in the rear to use compared to Genesis (I recently did a quick G4 render, and wow, I had forgotten all the hoop jumping you have to do to use the older figures).
So in general I agree with your assertions that Poser development has grown a bit stagnant, with very little innovation. However, I will continue to watch with great interest to see if the development plan is to eventually redo a bunch of the underlying code to support modern/standard things like a single uni-mesh figure. However, without significant improvements or innovation, I really can't justify purchasing Poser 12 right now.
ssgbryan posted at 1:27PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405418
For a person that doesn't use Poser, you certainly spend a lot of time in the Poser forums.
Neither you nor I care what DS users do.
The OP is whining about using DS content in Poser. I suggested that the OP move to DS, and get ready to spend for scripts to replicate the features that they appear to be used to. Unlike you, I have already been down that rabbit hole, the cost is $750. I already provided you a list of the scripts, the cost, and the Poser feature they duplicate.
And your only retort was that you didn't need those features - which wasn't the issue.
Once again, I feel compelled to dispute your assertions that it costs $750 to make DS do what poser can do. If you have truly spent thousands of dollars at DAZ, then you know that only someone with more money than good sense ever pays full list price for anything at DAZ. We did go over this once before, you provided a list of needed items, I went through it item by item, provided what the items actually cost me, and which items were not really needed because the functionality exists within DS (where the add-ons just provide simple one click solutions, but the functionality is provided within the DS UI), and I think you also included FaceShop?? to give the same functionality as the Face Room in Poser (something I don't need, don't use in either application). IIRC my bottom line total for DS was less than Poser, and IIRC the discussion was before DAZ bought KeyMate and GraphMate, which are now included in DS for free. When you make these claims, you really should inform people that you are using the full list price (not the price that most DS users would pay), that some of the products aren't really needed but make life easier, and some of the items people might not ever use in either application.
Thank you for the support on that but I was right about the Poser development. That connotation on "dynamic" is inaccurate. Poser 5 presented "conforming clothing and hair." Somebody as Wikipedia got that wrong. I physically have 5's box sitting on my shelf. Yes I'm weird and I keep software boxes dating all the way back to 3. I also have my old Photoshop boxes from the 90's. Sort of a retro tech fixation I guess. That and I hate tossing out a perfectly good box. So again, wiki-error, not mine.
Thanks some more for the backup on my points!
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 9:33 PM
Deecey posted at 9:28PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405527
randym77 posted at 5:09PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405526
Heh. He claims to have experience with Poser back to the mid-'90s, and says anyone who doesn't should shut up.
But...I would think anyone who really did have experience from the mid-90s would remember that Poser 5 gave us the hair room and the cloth room. They were a big freakin' deal. The first dynamic cloth I used were dresses made for Judy and V3.
And the face room as well. I wrote the docs for those three chapters. But I'm the idiot, pay no attention. I must have imagined it. ;-)
So we should blame you for the confusing chapters throughout Poser's manual then? For real - I wouldn't go bragging about writing anything in the Poser manual(s). I had better instructions and explanations in Japanese plastic model kits that lacked English translation in many cases. I guess maybe I'm blind and stupid. Nope...there it is. Argue with that all you want. The Poser5 thing is clearly wrong. You all realize Wikipedia is not reviewed, right? Errors everywhere. 
DCArt posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 9:38 PM
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 9:39 PM
Deecey posted at 9:35PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405530
Care to share which new features of any consequence Smith Micro added after they let the original team go in 2016? I'm waiting. 8-)
I'M NOT. WHY YOU THINK I'M STILL WORKING ON P10 MAN?! THEY MESSED UP LETTING THAT ORIGINAL TEAM GO.
I know. I was one of them. And I will repeat. Poser 11 was doing just fine. The problem was that SM's IT division did poorly for a couple of years. There were layoffs company-wide. To cut costs, the graphics team (most of who were in California) were let go, and they moved graphics programming to Portugal where costs were lower. A couple of other people were added in Pennsylvania as well.
But there was very little done to Poser after the original team was let go (one "point" release and two bug fixes for that in 3 years time) and by the time Bondware acquired it I think the graphics division sales were down to probably 10-20% what they were before the original Poser and Moho teams were let go. Your comment would make sense if you got that email after 2016, when the original team was let go.
All of this is verifiable if you read their annual stock reports from 2016 to 2020, where quarterly and annual sales figures are listed.
It was well after 2016 - probably around the time Bondware was acquiring Poser legally from them. So 2017-18? I'd have to sort my inbox to find the exact mail and date. So then now you admit I'm not completely wrong? Wow, thanks. I agree mismanagement has been an issue for Poser. 11 was the first crash. You agree with that, yes? But the same path has been followed except Bondware is doing worse. I just don't think Bondware (good intentions or not) has the ability to field a team large enough to really bring Poser back up to where it should be. It's not the people working on it's fault - it's management. Either lack of effort or money - but either way it's management. They're who I'm fussing at. Programmers and tech only do what they're told. I've not yelled in their direction - not once! Give me some credit. I know what it is like to work for morons who don't listen to you and run whole companies into the ground.
JAG posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 9:46 PM
Deecey posted at 9:40PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405546
Always on the attack, aren't you?
And I have no idea who is responsible for the Wikipedia page.
The art of debate is lost in this socialist feel-good era I suppose. Yes, I'm on the attack as this is an open debate. Pick a side and battle! Stop whining because I shoot your points down or don't agree with them. The idea of debate is to win with facts and if the opponent continues to fend off facts, you move into the realm of psychology - from which you try to knock them off their game and make them rethink their own positions. You've failed at both so far. You fact-check me and I counter it and so you get smarmy and I don't care - smarming right back. You're not winning the debate at all. In fact, by whining about me being on the attack (technically defensive since it's my thread and you all came in and attacked my position and points without invitation) - you've just made yourself look even more childish. My thread and my points. You all entered it willingly and began to attack me and mine. You don't get to call me out for being aggressive with my defense. This pot of water boils...if you can't handle the heat, I'd urge you to climb out and take your chances on the burner.
Stand up and debate like you got some. If you lose, nod and step away like a man. If you win, you may tap-dance on my proverbial face. But don't resort to childish insults and jabs. That's just sad for you.
adp001 posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 9:55 PM
JAG posted at 9:50PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405545
Deecey posted at 9:28PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405527
randym77 posted at 5:09PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405526
Heh. He claims to have experience with Poser back to the mid-'90s, and says anyone who doesn't should shut up.
But...I would think anyone who really did have experience from the mid-90s would remember that Poser 5 gave us the hair room and the cloth room. They were a big freakin' deal. The first dynamic cloth I used were dresses made for Judy and V3.
And the face room as well. I wrote the docs for those three chapters. But I'm the idiot, pay no attention. I must have imagined it. ;-)
So we should blame you for the confusing chapters throughout Poser's manual then? For real - I wouldn't go bragging about writing anything in the Poser manual(s). I had better instructions and explanations in Japanese plastic model kits that lacked English translation in many cases. I guess maybe I'm blind and stupid. Nope...there it is. Argue with that all you want. The Poser5 thing is clearly wrong. You all realize Wikipedia is not reviewed, right? Errors everywhere.
My first piece of dynamic cloth at sharcg says: Added 13 years ago. Description says: Tested with P7.
https://sharecg.com/v/16079/gallery/11/Poser/V3-simple-shirt-1
DCArt posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 9:57 PM
It was well after 2016 - probably around the time Bondware was acquiring Poser legally from them. So 2017-18? I'd have to sort my inbox to find the exact mail and date. So then now you admit I'm not completely wrong?
Well, you are PARTLY wrong. You appear to be a little mixed up on the timing of, and who was responsible for, Poser 11 which is why I kept trying to tell you that Poser was doing fine when the original team was there.
The ORIGINAL TEAM was there when Poser 11 was released in Nov 2015. There were (IIRC) 5 or 6 service releases done in the weeks and months that followed. The original team was let go in Nov 2016, after which the new team took over. There may have been a couple of original team members there when 11.0.7 and 11.0.8 were released, and to help the new team during the transition.
The first release from the NEW team was Poser 11.1 ... there is one place that says that was released in Dec 2017. Then according to online sources, 11.1.1 was released in Jan 2019.
Bondware's first "bridge" release, to resolve the issues before SMSI broke their activation server, was released in Sept 2019. So it's been in their hands for a little over a year now. Considering they have actually done MORE in that year than the new team did in the 3 they had it, I think they are owed some credit and are again moving Poser forward. I had little hope with SM's new team. I DO have hope now. So I'm sorry to say, I disagree with you.
That being said, I haven't tried to be nasty when I have responded to you. I really don't appreciate being called "an idiot" by someone who doesn't listen, but it is what it is. I have to bow out again here, because to reply any more will only perpetuate the insults further. All I was trying to do was respond to your posts with FACTS. That's all.
Have a good day.
DustRider posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 10:03 PM
Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010. IIRC SM "improved" some of the functions/UI for 2010, but it was there long before that. In fact, I was the first person to develop dynamic clothing for Glamorous Jessie, a Jim Burton re-work of the Jessie figure that came with Poser 5. Here is a render of Glamorous Jessie in the dynamic cloth outfit I created for her: https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/gallery/i-wonder-/1386549/ (yes, it's pretty bad, but that was Poser 5). Here is another image done with the same outfit, refitted to V3, and rendered in Carrara Studio 4 Pro using Transposer to move the figure (with dynamic cloth) into Carrara for rendering: https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/gallery/eve-wip-/887298/ . If you still have the box, then you probably still have the manual, which will clear up the confusion. Wikipedia is often wrong, or as in this instance, missing some critical information.
Seriously though, you should remember the introduction of dynamic cloth in Poser 5, it was a really big deal. Just incase you still don't believe it, here is a tutorial from 2005 on Dynamic cloth in Poser 5 https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/tutorial/?tutorial_id=868 (sorry, live links seem to be broken right now, so you'll need to copy/paste the url's).
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
DCArt posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 10:10 PM
Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010.
That might be when they added bullet physics,
DustRider posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 10:11 PM
Deecey posted at 10:11PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405554
Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010.
That might be when they added bullet physics,
That sounds about right.
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
DustRider posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 10:15 PM
Another tutorial for dynamic cloth in Poser 5: http://www.render-lab.com/Dynamic_Clothes.htm
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
DCArt posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 10:22 PM
DustRider posted at 10:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405555
Deecey posted at 10:11PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405554
Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010.
That might be when they added bullet physics,
That sounds about right.
Yes, bullet physics was Poser 10/Pro 2014. The people that wrote the Wikipedia blurb for Poser must have gotten it confused with the other dynamics. I have NO idea who kept that up for SM.
DustRider posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 10:23 PM
You can even buy Poser 5 on Amazon, take a quick look at the features .... (link: https://www.amazon.com/Curious-Labs-Inc-Poser-5/dp/B00006IXA4)
"Poser 5 is an ideal 3-D character design and animation tool for artists and animators. Create 3-D figures using a diverse collection of ready-to-use 3-D human and animal models. Poser's innovative interface makes figure design, posing, and animating fast and easy. Map facial photos, grow and style dynamic hair, and create dynamic cloth to add extraordinary realism to your figure.
Quickly output movies and images from your posed figures for content in Web, print, and video projects. Add life to your 3-D worlds using exported, posed figures. For those new to 3-D, digital artists, and hobbyists alike, Poser 5 is easy to learn and quickly generates fast and dynamic results.
Poser 5 delivers a stunning host of new tools including Facial Photo-mapping, Dynamic Strand-based Hair, Dynamic Cloth, new Figures, and FireFly, Poser 5's powerful new renderer. Use Morph Putty to directly manipulate facial expressions. Create realistic dynamic cloth and make it flow and drape around any object in your scene. Build powerful node-based material shaders to create any material texture you can imagine. The Poser 5 Content CD contains a host of extras, including props and textures."
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
DustRider posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 10:25 PM
Deecey posted at 10:24PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405557
DustRider posted at 10:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405555
Deecey posted at 10:11PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405554
Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010.
That might be when they added bullet physics,
That sounds about right.
Yes, bullet physics was Poser 10/Pro 2014. The people that wrote the Wikipedia blurb for Poser must have gotten it confused with the other dynamics. I have NO idea who kept that up for SM.
No doubt somebody in marketing. it sounds good, and people in the board room wouldn't know it was wrong :)
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
DustRider posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 10:26 PM
After this big trip down memory lane I remember why I had such high hopes for Poser!!!
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
DustRider posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 10:33 PM
And finally a tutorial from Nerd3D (AKA Charles, the same Charles who I believe is in charge of Poser development now??) done in 2005, for Poser 5!! http://www.nerd3d.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=4
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
DustRider posted Sun, 22 November 2020 at 10:36 PM
And in case you can't find your Poser 5 Manual, here it is (look on page 58)
http://www.dawnstarbooks.com/samples/samples/AnthonyHernandez_TWSample_L.pdf
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
JAG posted Mon, 23 November 2020 at 1:49 AM
Deecey posted at 1:46AM Mon, 23 November 2020 - #4405552
It was well after 2016 - probably around the time Bondware was acquiring Poser legally from them. So 2017-18? I'd have to sort my inbox to find the exact mail and date. So then now you admit I'm not completely wrong?
Well, you are PARTLY wrong. You appear to be a little mixed up on the timing of, and who was responsible for, Poser 11 which is why I kept trying to tell you that Poser was doing fine when the original team was there.
The ORIGINAL TEAM was there when Poser 11 was released in Nov 2015. There were (IIRC) 5 or 6 service releases done in the weeks and months that followed. The original team was let go in Nov 2016, after which the new team took over. There may have been a couple of original team members there when 11.0.7 and 11.0.8 were released, and to help the new team during the transition.
The first release from the NEW team was Poser 11.1 ... there is one place that says that was released in Dec 2017. Then according to online sources, 11.1.1 was released in Jan 2019.
Bondware's first "bridge" release, to resolve the issues before SMSI broke their activation server, was released in Sept 2019. So it's been in their hands for a little over a year now. Considering they have actually done MORE in that year than the new team did in the 3 they had it, I think they are owed some credit and are again moving Poser forward. I had little hope with SM's new team. I DO have hope now. So I'm sorry to say, I disagree with you.
That being said, I haven't tried to be nasty when I have responded to you. I really don't appreciate being called "an idiot" by someone who doesn't listen, but it is what it is. I have to bow out again here, because to reply any more will only perpetuate the insults further. All I was trying to do was respond to your posts with FACTS. That's all.
Have a good day.
Well if that's in fact the case, then the old team screwed 11 up first. I therefore retract my assertion about it. I have no idea when said original team left but if, as you say, they were responsible for 11, then I can see why Smith released them from duties. 11 is a joke with no punchline. It continues to be bad and 12 is showing practically no improvement. Though knowing this now (pending you know what you're talking about) -- it does make sense why they ran the original team out.
JAG posted Mon, 23 November 2020 at 1:53 AM
DustRider posted at 1:50AM Mon, 23 November 2020 - #4405553
Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010. IIRC SM "improved" some of the functions/UI for 2010, but it was there long before that. In fact, I was the first person to develop dynamic clothing for Glamorous Jessie, a Jim Burton re-work of the Jessie figure that came with Poser 5. Here is a render of Glamorous Jessie in the dynamic cloth outfit I created for her: https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/gallery/i-wonder-/1386549/ (yes, it's pretty bad, but that was Poser 5). Here is another image done with the same outfit, refitted to V3, and rendered in Carrara Studio 4 Pro using Transposer to move the figure (with dynamic cloth) into Carrara for rendering: https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/gallery/eve-wip-/887298/ . If you still have the box, then you probably still have the manual, which will clear up the confusion. Wikipedia is often wrong, or as in this instance, missing some critical information.
Seriously though, you should remember the introduction of dynamic cloth in Poser 5, it was a really big deal. Just incase you still don't believe it, here is a tutorial from 2005 on Dynamic cloth in Poser 5 https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/tutorial/?tutorial_id=868 (sorry, live links seem to be broken right now, so you'll need to copy/paste the url's).
Well it is possible that I'm recalling it incorrectly. I won't say without doubt that it isn't but as noted, Wiki has it listed in two sections. But my only point originally was that the development of dynamic cloth simulation and even conforming clothing were all gigantic leaps forward when nobody else had it. This system of grand steps and big innovations is what made me salivate every time a new version was coming out. That hasn't happened since 11. There was simply nothing to feed the 20 year Poser fan in me. And so I never bought it. I got it gifted to me by Bondware as an apology that Smith stopped my GameDev from working (a blatant violation of my EULA with them). That's another rant for a different thread. But anyway, the point wasn't "when" the innovations occurred but rather that they did and quite regularly with new versions --- and now they don't.
JAG posted Mon, 23 November 2020 at 1:58 AM
Deecey posted at 1:54AM Mon, 23 November 2020 - #4405557
DustRider posted at 10:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405555
Deecey posted at 10:11PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405554
Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010.
That might be when they added bullet physics,
That sounds about right.
Yes, bullet physics was Poser 10/Pro 2014. The people that wrote the Wikipedia blurb for Poser must have gotten it confused with the other dynamics. I have NO idea who kept that up for SM.
Well the physics thing was more or less what I was talking about. Are you guys talking about dynamic clothing simulations? Maybe we're all thinking of different aspects of that. But either or is still radically cool innovations so the argument is moot. I was just saying they don't do stuff like this now.
JAG posted Mon, 23 November 2020 at 2:00 AM
DustRider posted at 1:59AM Mon, 23 November 2020 - #4405561
And finally a tutorial from Nerd3D (AKA Charles, the same Charles who I believe is in charge of Poser development now??) done in 2005, for Poser 5!! http://www.nerd3d.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=4
Yes he's still part of the team but I'm not sure if he's the head now. He was for Smith with regard to 11. I wonder if this is when things went south?
JAG posted Mon, 23 November 2020 at 2:11 AM
Well again, regardless of whether I lose the argument about 5 vs. 10 for the cloth simulations / bullet physics ---- my original point was that it represented a significantly cool innovation for Poser. I was holding it up as an example of what's missing in the last four years of development. Bug fix...improvement...bug fix...rinse and repeat - and yet the only thing that excited me enough to get involved again was the ability to export SubD figures to Zbrush to make HD morphs that would be retained in Poser format. And of course as mentioned, the exchange does not work for me...and never has. I've tried it on three separate computers and even again on my main workstation after upgrading to a more modern graphics card. And it still doesn't work. So to me, the one awesome innovation added in the last four years is a disheartening bust that Charles and company don't seem real concerned with fixing. Meanwhile they toil away endlessly on everything else apparently. I did my part to help them figure the bug out at the time I reported it and I went back and forth for a couple of weeks and finally I just realized they didn't care so I stopped bothering to assist. So again, this one dating/version debate is moot quite honestly. But that said, I did find screenshots showing a CLOTH room tab in Poser 5 so there was clearly some sort of clothing addition with it. But whether it was CL or Smith that brought us clothing simulation and bullet physics the point is that they did and 11 and 12 present us with nothing worthy of the price for the upgrade. Bondware - THINK BIG! - if you want to save Poser.
randym77 posted Mon, 23 November 2020 at 7:16 AM
The problem with Wikipedia is that anyone can post anything there. It's just plain wrong about strand-based hair.
There was a change made in the hair room around then. I don't recall exactly which version of Poser it was, but they changed the way density worked or something. That's why dynamic hair made for Poser 5 looks so sparse if you use it in more recent versions of Poser. Maybe that's what it was referring to?
A_Sunbeam posted Mon, 23 November 2020 at 2:10 PM
Maybe it's time to close this thread. Apart from the fact that JAG will not post any images of his work to show how important Poser is to his income, he seems to be interested only in confrontation. and proclaiming that he is the best ... As for being in at the start, well I started with Fortran 4 and punched cards (using toothpicks at first,) before JAG appeared on the scene (at 45 he is roughly as old as my younger son). And if anyone can claim anything about modern computers I reckon Steve Jobs and his mates (and Bill Gates) have prior claim, not JAG. I think he overrates his personal contribution to the development of the modern PC.
I have read through all the posts. And, to be honest, they are very boring. Maybe JAG is having a "mid-life-crisis" or whatever it's called? Any road up, this thread is totally unnecessary. Whether Poser 11 and 12 are good or bad is a matter of personal opinion, and really, we could well do without drama queens who think they are God's gift to the computer world.
jennblake posted Mon, 23 November 2020 at 3:05 PM
As it seems this thread has come to end of it's usefulness we need to shut it down. I wish this wasn't the case.
