Poser 13 does not include support for unimesh figures. The announcement was made that

What are your thoughts and opinions?

There's some discussion in this thread:

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2977561/march-23rd-right-around-the-corner

I'm a little disappointed, since they promised us unimesh and a new figure. End users probably won't really notice, though. Hopefully this means no unimesh yet, not that they've given up on it. As I understand it, unimesh support/figures will make Poser more compatible with other software, making it easier to import and export stuff.

Note, unimesh as DAZ used the term a couple of decades ago is not what they're talking about here. No unimesh support doesn't mean you can't use V4. It's a completely different definition of unimesh.

randym77 posted at 1:02 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456852

There's some discussion in this thread:

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2977561/march-23rd-right-around-the-corner

I'm a little disappointed, since they promised us unimesh and a new figure. End users probably won't really notice, though. Hopefully this means no unimesh yet, not that they've given up on it. As I understand it, unimesh support/figures will make Poser more compatible with other software, making it easier to import and export stuff.

Note, unimesh as DAZ used the term a couple of decades ago is not what they're talking about here. No unimesh support doesn't mean you can't use V4. It's a completely different definition of unimesh.

Speaking about Unimesh, actually already a included feature since Poser Pro 2014. Just not commonly used by creators, some do use it but but these creators can be counted on one hand. When SM released that feature there were not many interested creators using that feature so they kept on using the common way. Guess it was caused due the support of V4 that is not a unimesh built figure. Unimesh rigging feature is found in the skinning method in Poser it is just named differently. So unmesh would be nothing else then renaming a existing feature. Questionable is if Creators are ever willing to use this method in the future as majority never did until now.

My guess is that the main issue for that Unimesh support would be adapting the Setup room to completely support this skinning method. Right now , yes Unimesh is fully supported but not very stable in the setup room, Leaving you the only option to work with external programs like Blender. So adapting the setup room to unimesh might also break the old skinning method, unless the build a secondary setup room for Unimesh ( Just a guess ) basically a totally new type of engine compared to the capsule tris rigging methods commonly used.

vopehov506 posted at 9:44 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456877

randym77 posted at 1:02 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456852

There's some discussion in this thread:

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2977561/march-23rd-right-around-the-corner

I'm a little disappointed, since they promised us unimesh and a new figure. End users probably won't really notice, though. Hopefully this means no unimesh yet, not that they've given up on it. As I understand it, unimesh support/figures will make Poser more compatible with other software, making it easier to import and export stuff.

Note, unimesh as DAZ used the term a couple of decades ago is not what they're talking about here. No unimesh support doesn't mean you can't use V4. It's a completely different definition of unimesh.

Speaking about Unimesh, actually already a included feature since Poser Pro 2014. Just not commonly used by creators, some do use it but but these creators can be counted on one hand. When SM released that feature there were not many interested creators using that feature so they kept on using the common way. Guess it was caused due the support of V4 that is not a unimesh built figure. Unimesh rigging feature is found in the skinning method in Poser it is just named differently. So unmesh would be nothing else then renaming a existing feature. Questionable is if Creators are ever willing to use this method in the future as majority never did until now.

So you've stated on numerous occasions.

Explain. Do you mean Simple Bones Single Skin-Interoperable?

Sure. It exports a unimesh (include existing groups or not), it also generates a wrong number of vertices error for FBM derived from such an export. Which I'll imagine is an isolated vertices problem, though I've never gone so far as to look. So what's the advantage if that's the case?

I'm all ears. Always looking to pick up new tricks but they're getting few and far between.

GoZ or a comparison reference mesh export python is still the only solution as far as I can see...

Edit:

Your comments about the rigging limitations do make some sense as far as conjecture goes though...

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

peter_wade posted at 10:43 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456883

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

That is not the same unimesh.

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peter_wade posted at 10:43 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456883

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

Ok.

It's a semantics problem.

V4 and M4 are unimesh in the sense that they are both derivatives of one mesh. Unimesh in Daz's old terminology means it's one mesh for all the figures.

Poser Unimesh in this context is a skinning method; how the skeleton is attached to the mesh. It's a rigging terminology. Instead of the mesh being welded and unwelded at the body part actor groups, it's a contiguous unbroken mesh. So this effects exports, which by default separates the groups, and subdivision and vertice numbering and winding order, primarily. Without a kludge or translator to deal with this welding and unwelding there's various headaches and cross software translation problems. It's Poser's lingering bugbear.

V4 and M4 are Poser traditional skinning. Poser traditional skinning isn't going anywhere at the moment. Poser wouldn't work without it as it stands for who knows when. 

I won't bother commenting on the confusion that Full Unimesh support adds to the equation in relation to the existing Unimesh Skinning as it stands with Poser. Surely there's someone on the payroll at Rendo who can actually take the time to explain it as it's apparently an issue. Of course there's probably not much incentive to alleviate the fears about decades old rival company figure compatibility, but judging by the state of things there should be... such is the hole that's being dug here.

@peter_wade: the Victoria unimesh was a DAZ marketing gimmick about using one mesh topology for male and female figures. The unimesh that is now built into Poser but not yet ready to be launched in the March release is about the way things are organised in the very guts of Poser. Two completely different things.

From what I understand: 

V4 "Unimesh" = uses the same mesh topology for female, male, child etc figures. Has nothing to do with rigging methods.

Poser Unimesh = cuts up the figure into body parts upon creation, then stitches them back up so that things like Subdivision can work. Doesn't make any difference for end users, but for content creators this adds more steps that we have to be careful for when creating things, also complicates bringing HD (subdivided) morphs into Poser, and brings a bunch of bugs when attempting to add some features into the rigging.

(edit: I'm not on the payroll, what I'm saying is not official, just the info I've gathered from experience. Could be wrong, etc.)

True Unimesh = doesn't cut up the figure at all. I'd wager the dev team is having trouble bringing this into Poser because it would change a very core functionality of it that's been around ever since Poser exists.

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Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

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peter_wade posted at 10:43 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456883

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

V4 M4 are not unimesh they are cut. A unimesh figure can't be taken apart on the joints. A unimesh figure would only stretch, meaning that there are no double edges, the edges are merged and there are no Doubles. Rigging on a real unimesh is "single" and not Tris there are no capsules or spheres, Painted influences on bendings can influence the whole mesh not only the bodypart. So in theory the left shoulder can as well influence the right thigh, that depends un how you paint. Advantage is that you can mix Hard shell bending and stretch bending, witch is not possible using the Poser traditional mode.

V4 sample ( Not Unimesh )

Can anyone clarify something for me?

I have dozens of texture sets that do not work with SuperFly due to showing seams, unless Is use the Poser option: Poser Skinning Method : Poser Unimesh

Are we saying that this workaround will go away in Poser 13? If so that will be a big deal for many folks I suspect.

A Unimesh will not be the reason to remove seams, from what I know it has nothing to do with texturing. seams depend on how the figure is mapped, so this rather would be a remapping that could fix seams. Also I do not believe that a upgrade in poser setup room to unimesh would influence the use of non unimesh figures they will keep on working just as they did before. As far as I understand they mainly try figuring out building a unimesh poser figure using "single skin" ( Was mentioned by Nerd ), naturally it takes time if the staff is still learning them selves all the single skin functions, like I mentioned there are not many that ever started using that feature in poser jet so it is a large learning path for the ones who are starting now.

Further to know is if you use a unimesh based on single skin rigging any edge needs to be merged cut edges cause breaks on bending, the figure will bend very smooth, using for example a scale armor for your figure also based on single skin but the scale armor is not unimesh but cut, it will allow a realistic bending without distorting and bending the scales when conformed to your unimesh single skin model.

All this naturally will take you further away from DS as DS does absolutely not support single skin and probably will not allow this support in the near future ( Locked feature ) so with unimesh single skin, compatibility to DS will totally be dropped.

ader posted at 1:53 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456916

Can anyone clarify something for me?

I have dozens of texture sets that do not work with SuperFly due to showing seams, unless Is use the Poser option: Poser Skinning Method : Poser Unimesh

Are we saying that this workaround will go away in Poser 13? If so that will be a big deal for many folks I suspect.

Nope.

Continue to use unimesh skinning for the Superfly body part seam problem.

Nobody said they were doing away with the Unimesh Skinning in scene option,  "Full" unimesh support simply isn't being added.

The accepted solution, as far as I know, for that Superfly specific artifact is switching to unimesh skinning in the figure menu. Which most do anyway to take advantage of figure SubD levels.

Thanks, I know there not seams per se as they can't be fixed by texture editing despite the issue existing for some textures and not others. 

I use this option for SubD too - but good to hear these textures will still work okay. 

So this means Poser 13 figures will have a cut-geometry like Poser 1 to Poser 7 figures as seen in vopehov506 example picture of an un-welded V4?
If so, how will the morph editor handle this, especially on smoothing geometry. Will this lead into mesh gaps?

Nevertrumper posted at 5:53 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456973

So this means Poser 13 figures will have a cut-geometry like Poser 1 to Poser 7 figures as seen in vopehov506 example picture of an un-welded V4?
If so, how will the morph editor handle this, especially on smoothing geometry. Will this lead into mesh gaps?

Doubting that future ( New ) models will be Cut in poser they will be unimesh just like LaFemme was made. They will just not rig it as Single skin ( Knowledge still needs to be Learned by the Creators )  There are allot of Unimesh figures already in poser and offered in the Stores but they are still rigged using the traditional Poser methods ( Capsule Triax WM methods ) I believe that the few left creators will be continuing using the traditional way ( Same type like DS is using ) Single skin rigging is the type that is used in Blender, CAD, Maya, even carrara uses this method. It is the key for better external support, Fast import export and direct modifications with 3rd applications. Like mentioned the feature is already existent in Poser just not in the Setup room. To rig into single skin you need a good knowledge with creation software Unreal can also be helpful for such matters. In theory your models in poser will just work like game-engine models if rigged based on single skin. It all depends on the willing of creators using this stunning method even that it already consists since 2014 so Bondware might be trying to push creators onto this direction.  

vopehov506 posted at 1:26 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456912

peter_wade posted at 10:43 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456883

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

V4 M4 are not unimesh they are cut. A unimesh figure can't be taken apart on the joints. A unimesh figure would only stretch, meaning that there are no double edges, the edges are merged and there are no Doubles. Rigging on a real unimesh is "single" and not Tris there are no capsules or spheres, Painted influences on bendings can influence the whole mesh not only the bodypart. So in theory the left shoulder can as well influence the right thigh, that depends un how you paint. Advantage is that you can mix Hard shell bending and stretch bending, witch is not possible using the Poser traditional mode.

V4 sample ( Not Unimesh )

By any chance did you save V4 under a new filename, which could have split the mesh apart?

V4 and M4 are, indeed, unified meshes. They do contain groups, but the groups are welded in the OBJ file that is in the Geometries folder. If you load Victoria 4.2 it should not be split apart as you show. Here's a file with the abdomen moved along the Y and Z axes, and with hidden parameters shown in P12 so that the abdomen can be translated. As you can see, the groups are welded together, not split apart as you show above.

vopehov506 posted at 9:00 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456979

Nevertrumper posted at 5:53 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456973

So this means Poser 13 figures will have a cut-geometry like Poser 1 to Poser 7 figures as seen in vopehov506 example picture of an un-welded V4?
If so, how will the morph editor handle this, especially on smoothing geometry. Will this lead into mesh gaps?

Doubting that future ( New ) models will be Cut in poser they will be unimesh just like LaFemme was made. They will just not rig it as Single skin ( Knowledge still needs to be Learned by the Creators )  There are allot of Unimesh figures already in poser and offered in the Stores but they are still rigged using the traditional Poser methods ( Capsule Triax WM methods ) I believe that the few left creators will be continuing using the traditional way ( Same type like DS is using ) Single skin rigging is the type that is used in Blender, CAD, Maya, even carrara uses this method. It is the key for better external support, Fast import export and direct modifications with 3rd applications. Like mentioned the feature is already existent in Poser just not in the Setup room. To rig into single skin you need a good knowledge with creation software Unreal can also be helpful for such matters. In theory your models in poser will just work like game-engine models if rigged based on single skin. It all depends on the willing of creators using this stunning method even that it already consists since 2014 so Bondware might be trying to push creators onto this direction.  

So, how to make sure body groups don't split up, when going to zbrush for creating custom morph targets?
This used to be a problem when with Poser.

I think he may have just been demonstrating the unwelding that happens when you export a figure mesh from a "live" cr2 in scene and reimport... the consequence being a change of the vertice count (doubling at breaks), and a winding order botch if you re-weld via weld identical.

Nevertrumper posted at 9:38 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456981

vopehov506 posted at 9:00 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456979

Nevertrumper posted at 5:53 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456973

So this means Poser 13 figures will have a cut-geometry like Poser 1 to Poser 7 figures as seen in vopehov506 example picture of an un-welded V4?
If so, how will the morph editor handle this, especially on smoothing geometry. Will this lead into mesh gaps?

Doubting that future ( New ) models will be Cut in poser they will be unimesh just like LaFemme was made. They will just not rig it as Single skin ( Knowledge still needs to be Learned by the Creators )  There are allot of Unimesh figures already in poser and offered in the Stores but they are still rigged using the traditional Poser methods ( Capsule Triax WM methods ) I believe that the few left creators will be continuing using the traditional way ( Same type like DS is using ) Single skin rigging is the type that is used in Blender, CAD, Maya, even carrara uses this method. It is the key for better external support, Fast import export and direct modifications with 3rd applications. Like mentioned the feature is already existent in Poser just not in the Setup room. To rig into single skin you need a good knowledge with creation software Unreal can also be helpful for such matters. In theory your models in poser will just work like game-engine models if rigged based on single skin. It all depends on the willing of creators using this stunning method even that it already consists since 2014 so Bondware might be trying to push creators onto this direction.  

So, how to make sure body groups don't split up, when going to zbrush for creating custom morph targets?
This used to be a problem when with Poser.

Nothing has changed. GoZ will return a proper welded FBM target. The whole point is that a feature isn't being added, not an existing feature being removed. This is Poser morph creation 101 stuff.

There's other ways to return valid results for FBM/JCM without error besides just GoZ incidentally. There has been for a long time.

La femme is partial unimesh, it's not the full implementation that is being sought here in 13, only live in scene or directly from geometries will the mesh be contiguous across groups. If you export that figure with include poly groups it too will be unwelded.

SMH...

primorge posted at 9:49 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456984

La femme is partial unimesh, it's not the full implementation that is being sought here in 13, only live in scene or directly from geometries will the mesh be contiguous across groups. If you export that figure with include poly groups it too will be unwelded.

SMH...

I guess I would refer to OBJ files that are welded at the group boundaries as "unified meshes." I think that is a more understandable definition of "unimesh" in regards to this type of figure. The OBJ file DOES contain group information, but the groups are not split apart at the seams. 

The DAZ Unimesh figures ARE unified meshes.

Miki 4 is a unified mesh.

Figures created for Poser 10 and later ARE unified meshes.

Does that make more sense?

DCArt posted at 9:10 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456980

vopehov506 posted at 1:26 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456912

peter_wade posted at 10:43 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456883

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

V4 M4 are not unimesh they are cut. A unimesh figure can't be taken apart on the joints. A unimesh figure would only stretch, meaning that there are no double edges, the edges are merged and there are no Doubles. Rigging on a real unimesh is "single" and not Tris there are no capsules or spheres, Painted influences on bendings can influence the whole mesh not only the bodypart. So in theory the left shoulder can as well influence the right thigh, that depends un how you paint. Advantage is that you can mix Hard shell bending and stretch bending, witch is not possible using the Poser traditional mode.

V4 sample ( Not Unimesh )

By any chance did you save V4 under a new filename, which could have split the mesh apart?

V4 and M4 are, indeed, unified meshes. They do contain groups, but the groups are welded in the OBJ file that is in the Geometries folder. If you load Victoria 4.2 it should not be split apart as you show. Here's a file with the abdomen moved along the Y and Z axes, and with hidden parameters shown in P12 so that the abdomen can be translated. As you can see, the groups are welded together, not split apart as you show above.

you notice if it is a unimesh or a cut when disabling the bend feature in the individual bodypart, for instance if you disable the bend in V4 it will show that it is cut, doing so on La Femme will not cut but the parts still will stretch, La femme has no double Edges like V4 is having on the joints . Leaving bend "ON" on a cut will glue the parts together but still they are cut. This is what this feature actually is for and would be of no use on Unimesh single skin rigging it simulates a unimesh. So No I did not save V4 under a new name or made a change that would cut her she comes cut out of the package.

Here's the deal.

Import V4 or the La Femme mesh into the scene from Geometries as static obj.

Welded, one mesh. With groups.

Export that obj back out as an obj with include existing groups.

One mesh again.

Now, load V4 or LF into the scene from the library as a cr2.

Export V4 or LF out as an obj now for morphing. You'll need to include existing groups in order to have the actor groups for FBM.

Guess what you end up with? An unwelded mesh. Unusable for morphing in an external app because of the splits in the mesh at the group boundaries. GoZ and various scripts act as translators to circumvent this. There's also a tedious way around this by importing the figure mesh from geometries as a prop (grouped) and using an ungrouped version to morph externally, loading that resulting alteration as a morph target onto the static grouped version and spawning props from the relevant effected body parts and applying again as FBM. Grouped props are not unwelded, Grouped figures are.

Full Unimesh Support seeks to eliminate all of this, amongst other problems. We're not getting it as was stated. Yet.

But that splitting apart at groups is done in Poser, the base mesh itself is indeed welded.

As a demonstration, import the blMilWom_v4b.obj file from Runtime > Geometries > DAZPeople into Poser as a prop. You'll notice that the groups are not split apart. 

GMTA primorge, we cross posted LOL

 For Nobs: you will realize the cut if you import V4 into Blender for instance. After Import simply tick on remove doubles and you will notice how many edges are double. or just by selecting the linked faces after selecting just one, it will just select one bodypart that you can pull away. Would it be a unimesh it would select the whole figure after hitting linked faces.  

If I load the default V4 OBJ (blMilWom_v4b.obj file from Runtime > Geometries > DAZPeople) into Modo, and then click the abdomen, ALL of the body parts corresponding to the skin are selected. This is a unified mesh (see top in screen shot). 

On the other hand, if I export V4 from Poser with all options unchecked, and load that into Modo, it's split apart. On the bottom, I double-click the abdomen, and it only selects the abdomen.

vopehov506 posted at 2:48 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456927

Further to know is if you use a unimesh based on single skin rigging any edge needs to be merged cut edges cause breaks on bending, the figure will bend very smooth, using for example a scale armor for your figure also based on single skin but the scale armor is not unimesh but cut, it will allow a realistic bending without distorting and bending the scales when conformed to your unimesh single skin model.

All this naturally will take you further away from DS as DS does absolutely not support single skin and probably will not allow this support in the near future ( Locked feature ) so with unimesh single skin, compatibility to DS will totally be dropped.

That's interesting, and sounds like something end users would like, even if they don't make any content themselves. Something worth paying for.

Curious that DS doesn't support it. It's a locked feature? Does that mean they could do it, but don't allow it?

I am realizing that until creators will really be capable using unimesh single skin WM it will pass years until getting understanding for it , did not happen until now even that it is since almost a decade possible and probably will not really happen in the next years to come. Until then 3D will evolve even more ending up with a knowledge that is 2 decades behind the actual tech. I have a learning path of over 5 years with simple skinning and still I am learning, sure it is not easy to make this change as it is totally different then the methodes used in DS and Poser traditional, as long as you stick on these triax method you will not find the correct way using single skinning, that for sure. Gues it is the main reason why it has been dropped for the first launch of Poser 13 :) 

Not included in the initial release of Poser 13.

It says in the initial release, but I don't know if there are plans to support it.

No updates are listed for the Hair or Cloth rooms.

No matter how much you improve the renderer, if the rendered figure, its hair, and the wrinkles in its clothing are not realistic, it will be ruined.

The rendering results will not be much different from the previous renderings

Fortunately, the end users who create the scenes, render the images, and produce the animations are not affected. It says "but is the end user the only target?

I can't help but feel that POSER will be left behind in the evolution of the 3DCG world.

What do you guys think about the simple fact that the initial release of Poser 13 does not support unimesh and there is no mention of Hair and Cloth rooms?

randym77 posted at 12:39 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457000

vopehov506 posted at 2:48 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456927

Further to know is if you use a unimesh based on single skin rigging any edge needs to be merged cut edges cause breaks on bending, the figure will bend very smooth, using for example a scale armor for your figure also based on single skin but the scale armor is not unimesh but cut, it will allow a realistic bending without distorting and bending the scales when conformed to your unimesh single skin model.

All this naturally will take you further away from DS as DS does absolutely not support single skin and probably will not allow this support in the near future ( Locked feature ) so with unimesh single skin, compatibility to DS will totally be dropped.

That's interesting, and sounds like something end users would like, even if they don't make any content themselves. Something worth paying for.

Curious that DS doesn't support it. It's a locked feature? Does that mean they could do it, but don't allow it?

My guess is that it is locked because Daz does not want simplified Import of rigged models, It would mean to be a game changer for DS and  creators would not be depending on the genesis bases for standalone models anymore. Meaning that DS Models would be less unique and allot of independent stores could pop up all over the internet that sell DS supported standalones ( Non Genesiss Based ) this might cut there revenue big time. DS does have the support but it is locked on Import, export works as you also get all kinds of exporters for Unreal Maya Blender etc so that the genesiss can be exported and unique offered by Daz. Actually a understandable business method.

As a purely end user, here is what I think:

Right now, after understanding the whole unimesh thing (thanks for explaining, guys!)--my main issue is that you can fix the render engine as much as you want, if there are no quality Superlfy-capable products on the market, the program is doomed. A ton of content is not easy to translate/ retexture because there are no good tutorials about it, so end user needs to discover by trial and error. Also, textures and promo renders (with a very few exception) for new poser products are subpar to those for DAZ.
You can't change end user behavior if you don't support vendor understanding and end user learning.

vopehov506 posted at 12:50 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457004

randym77 posted at 12:39 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457000

vopehov506 posted at 2:48 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456927

Further to know is if you use a unimesh based on single skin rigging any edge needs to be merged cut edges cause breaks on bending, the figure will bend very smooth, using for example a scale armor for your figure also based on single skin but the scale armor is not unimesh but cut, it will allow a realistic bending without distorting and bending the scales when conformed to your unimesh single skin model.

All this naturally will take you further away from DS as DS does absolutely not support single skin and probably will not allow this support in the near future ( Locked feature ) so with unimesh single skin, compatibility to DS will totally be dropped.

That's interesting, and sounds like something end users would like, even if they don't make any content themselves. Something worth paying for.

Curious that DS doesn't support it. It's a locked feature? Does that mean they could do it, but don't allow it?

My guess is that it is locked because Daz does not want simplified Import of rigged models, It would mean to be a game changer for DS and  creators would not be depending on the genesis bases for standalone models anymore. Meaning that DS Models would be less unique and allot of independent stores could pop up all over the internet that sell DS supported standalones ( Non Genesiss Based ) this might cut there revenue big time. DS does have the support but it is locked on Import, export works as you also get all kinds of exporters for Unreal Maya Blender etc so that the genesiss can be exported and unique offered by Daz. Actually a understandable business method.

Thanks, makes sense. Poser was always more open to user tinkering, but I wonder if that will remain true under Bondware. Like DAZ, they make their money selling content.

Just Imagine, the moment DS or Poser adds full support of Unimesh simple skinning with big promotions, these applications will offer full support for any rigged model on the market and also floods of free models. For DAZ probably a disaster as you can get them very cheap and also find floods of free models that are superior to the ones offered in the Poser DS stores. Customers would realize that fact quiet fast. So For DS sure a no go , For Poser I have no Idea might be a possibility attracting more Vendors to Renderosity that support poser and sell there Products here. But sure a risk then they might as well start selling otherwise due a easy compatibility.

Rhia474 posted at 12:51 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457005

As a purely end user, here is what I think:

Right now, after understanding the whole unimesh thing (thanks for explaining, guys!)--my main issue is that you can fix the render engine as much as you want, if there are no quality Superlfy-capable products on the market, the program is doomed. A ton of content is not easy to translate/ retexture because there are no good tutorials about it, so end user needs to discover by trial and error. Also, textures and promo renders (with a very few exception) for new poser products are subpar to those for DAZ.
You can't change end user behavior if you don't support vendor understanding and end user learning.

Agreed. Some of the Superfly promo images are awful. (Though they seem to be improving.)

And I think Superfly is honestly more difficult and finicky than Firefly. (Which is difficult and finicky enough.) As others have noted, once you find settings you like in Firefly, they pretty much work for every scene. With Superfly, you need to fiddle with the settings for every different scene.

It doesn't help that preview doesn't work well with a lot of Superfly materials, and it takes so long to do even test renders.

Vendor understanding would definitely help. That's how it was with Firefly, as I recall. Promo renders that made people want to buy the product, and often it would come with a light set and instructions on render settings.

Mighty bold of you to think that vendors are willing to learn any new features in Poser, randym77.  Historically, too many are aggressively uninterested in taking the time to learn new features - especially if the end users aren't willing to use them either.

Lighting/rendering has been an issue in Poser since at least Poser 5 that I am personally aware of.  The Poser team in the past worked under the assumption that Poser end users have a photography background.  That hasn't changed, apparently.

Until there is a 1-click firefly-superfly conversion process for ALL materials, superfly is irrelevant for a lot of users.

From my perspective - This isn't Poser 13. 

It is Poser 12.1.

ssgbryan posted at 2:06 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457012

Mighty bold of you to think that vendors are willing to learn any new features in Poser, randym77.  Historically, too many are aggressively uninterested in taking the time to learn new features - especially if the end users aren't willing to use them either.

Lighting/rendering has been an issue in Poser since at least Poser 5 that I am personally aware of.  The Poser team in the past worked under the assumption that Poser end users have a photography background.  That hasn't changed, apparently.

Until there is a 1-click firefly-superfly conversion process for ALL materials, superfly is irrelevant for a lot of users.

From my perspective - This isn't Poser 13. 

It is Poser 12.1.

There are however a few vendors that do supply Superfly versions of their textures and also lighting set ups so there are a few that go the extra mile.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

vopehov506 posted at 1:07 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457007

Just Imagine, the moment DS or Poser adds full support of Unimesh simple skinning with big promotions, these applications will offer full support for any rigged model on the market and also floods of free models. For DAZ probably a disaster as you can get them very cheap and also find floods of free models that are superior to the ones offered in the Poser DS stores. Customers would realize that fact quiet fast. So For DS sure a no go , For Poser I have no Idea might be a possibility attracting more Vendors to Renderosity that support poser and sell there Products here. But sure a risk then they might as well start selling otherwise due a easy compatibility.

I hope that's the path Bondware chooses. Not only would it be better for us users...I don't think they can beat DAZ at their own game. They have to do something different.

ssgbryan posted at 2:06 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457012

Mighty bold of you to think that vendors are willing to learn any new features in Poser, randym77.  Historically, too many are aggressively uninterested in taking the time to learn new features - especially if the end users aren't willing to use them either.

Lighting/rendering has been an issue in Poser since at least Poser 5 that I am personally aware of.  The Poser team in the past worked under the assumption that Poser end users have a photography background.  That hasn't changed, apparently.

Until there is a 1-click firefly-superfly conversion process for ALL materials, superfly is irrelevant for a lot of users.

From my perspective - This isn't Poser 13. 

It is Poser 12.1.

I think part of the problem is that Superfly really isn't that big an improvement, at least with stuff Poser users render (humans).

Firefly was a quantum leap over the Poser 4 renderer. Users may not have known much about it, but they wanted to learn to use it, because the results were so much better. I remember a group of us getting together to make Firefly MATs for products that didn't have them. You'd choose a character, make MATs, and post them as free stuff.

I suppose that may be less necessary now, with scripts like EZskin. But I also think there's less interest. Superfly just doesn't look so much better than Firefly that people want to jump through hoops to use it.

Superfly does not look better because there are no good tutorials as to how to use it. End users need to scour for how-tos or ask people here and kludge our way through until we can figure it out, or rely of people like Snarly to convert things.

Of course when you look at promo renders with, again, a very small number of exception, or try with the settings provided, you will get crappy results. No one teaches how to use it. I did not use Firefly since Poser 12 came out, but I kludge my way through everything. It is super frustrating and very lonely.

Rhia474 posted at 5:05 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457027

Superfly does not look better because there are no good tutorials as to how to use it. End users need to scour for how-tos or ask people here and kludge our way through until we can figure it out, or rely of people like Snarly to convert things.

Of course when you look at promo renders with, again, a very small number of exception, or try with the settings provided, you will get crappy results. No one teaches how to use it. I did not use Firefly since Poser 12 came out, but I kludge my way through everything. It is super frustrating and very lonely.

I think it's more than that. I think we're reaching the point of diminishing returns. Look at a Poser 4 render, and there's a ton of room for improvement. No one would mistake it for a photograph.

Someone who is skilled with Firefly can produce nearly photoreal renders. There's an upper limit to improvement. You can't make renders more real than real life. Any improvements will be relatively minor compared to the jump from Poser 4 to Firefly.

I'd like to see better toon and sketch options. I'd find that a lot more useful than small improvements in realism.

That is EXACTLY the problem, Rhia.

The stuff that is using Superfly is meh.

I don't do pin up art, so most of it is useless for me.

If bondware thought about it - they would either add a script that will batch convert firefly mats to superfly, or they could contract that out.

But, at the end of the day - they need something to do this otherwise, I don't see the point of Superfly.

On Topic Archaic Non GoZ/Non Python Script Unimesh FBM method Demo.

For this example I'll be using the LF Dev cr2.

Preamble;

Before the advent of the GoZ bridge to Zbrush or Python script translation/figure reference methods there was a way to guarantee the ability to create cross body part full body morphs in external softwares without worrying about the unwelding caused from exporting out of Poser via in scene cr2 figure.

Most contemporary Poser figure cr2s reference a Unimesh obj contained in the Geometries folder of a relevant Runtime. Occasionally you'll come across unwelded models, this usually concerns very old legacy Poser figures or the result of sloppiness on the part of a content creator. By unwelded this means not unimesh; Not a unified mesh. Broken apart at body part groups into separate parts corresponding to the figure's actors, a peculiarity of Poser software figure tech that's deep at the core of Poser code and the crux of the Unimesh dilemma. This has a host of implications but here I'm focusing on the problem it poses to external morph creation.

The major problem with creating Full Body Morphs for Poser in external softwares is twofold.

If you export a figure out of Poser as an OBJ file with the intent of FBM creation it requires the existence of polygonal groups corresponding to each body part of the figure. If the export does not contain said groups Poser cannot translate the morph modifications across body parts into a working full body morph upon re-import. The command to include such body part groups is dictated by the include existing groups in polygon groups checkbox in the OBJ export dialogue.

Exporting in such a manner causes Poser to break apart the mesh into parts corresponding to the existing groups.

Trying to morph across such breaks in the model causes visible seams in the resulting morph.

A solution to this is to create the morph(s) by utilizing the referenced grouped unimesh from the Geometries folder rather than an export from scene. The problem with this is that various softwares interpret poygonal groups in unique ways. Some softwares break apart the OBJ into separate individual parts corresponding to each polygonal group. Wings3D does this.

Some have options for how the groups are handled. Blender for instance has an obj importer that dictates split into parts by group or not, maintain vertex order, establish vertex groups per polygonal group for use as selections, hiding, and the like. Very flexible. FBM creation via Geometries import is perfectly viable in Blender, that's why I'm always mystified by Poser users moaning about a Blender bridge for morphing. JCM creation is of course a very good reason to desire such a bridge, that's a different topic, but most times the complaints are in relation to standard 0 rotations morph/FBM creation.

Zbrush used to break apart the mesh into parts per group, last I recall this was version 2 if I remember correctly, unusable. Now it maintains the integrity of the Unimesh while maintaining the groups. Useful for selective hiding, masking etc. Viable for FBM creation without a translator.

Mudbox operates very similar to Zbrush. Maintains Unimesh, Polygonal groups viable, maintains vertex order all default.

Things are much better now than they used to be in relation to options for handling groups in OBJ, at least from my observations.

The old method to guarantee a viable model for use across softwares without worrying about how the groups are handled or the unwelding that a "live" export causes used to go something like this, and is still a viable method if maybe a bit clunky to instant gratification types. These days I use PML and GoZ, which have the added benefit of flexibility in JCM and difference morph stuff, but this old method might also be useful to someone who finds themselves spending a bunch of time creating a FBM but forgot to include the grouping information on the trip back to Poser; on that front it's a working method for recovery. The demo also might help clarify stuff about the whole topic of Unimesh in Poser.

I start by loading the figure I want to morph externally from the relevant character library folder, LF Dev here...

I then go to File: Import: Wavefront OBJ and navigate to the relevant Geometries folder for LF and import the LaLFemme1 obj (or the compressed obz file, it will import as well), leave all options unchecked/default in the dialogue.

I hide the dev figure. I have the LF figure and the referenced obj file (which is Unimesh and grouped) as a static prop in the scene...

I then return to file menu and export the reference prop I just imported as OBJ but this time I dump all the group information by not checking include existing groups in polygon groups in the dialogue, just leave everything unchecked.

A little clarification here. An export of a cr2 from scene as grouped OBJ will split apart the mesh at actor/groups. Conversely if you export a prop with existing groups no such splitting will occur.

In this instance I dump the groups from the prop to circumvent how other softwares would interpret these polygonal groups. No groups, only one way to interpret... as a single object. Save the OBJ with a name that you can identify as your ungrouped morphing reference object.

I'm using Mudbox here to do the FBM creation. Just a fast and dirty stereotypical Alien Head type morph that involves the head and neck...

With the demo morph done I export as a Wavefront OBJ and save it as AlienHeadLF.

Returning to Poser I select the grouped static prop LF in scene and load the created morph to the prop via load morph target in the props properties tab. I dial the resulting morph to 1. I now have a morph applied to a grouped unimesh prop obj via an ungrouped export mesh.

I go to File: Export: Wavefront OBJ, single frame, clear the Hierarchy of selections by clicking the Universe check box or Select None button.

Check only the include existing groups in polygon groups checkbox.

I'm exporting the grouped prop obj file that has the morph applied. Give it a unique name that is identifiable or overwrite your external software morph file (not recommended unless your absolutely sure).

Apply this file via the Figure Menu: Load Full Body Morph option to the in scene cr2 figure.

Dial the morph to 1 via the Body actor parm that's been generated...

There used to be a step requiring spawning of props from relevant groups. Its been a long time but this was before the handy option of Load full body morph. My memory is a bit fuzzy on the particulars.

As an aside there's also an old workaround for the creation of subtractive difference morphs; that is, morphs that can be layered and are treated as being generated at a default state even if they are created over top a dialed in morph baked into the state of the export obj. Only those vertices moved during the latest iteration are calculated as a difference; no morph telescoping from a baked in state. It's possible to do this manually through a few steps but such things are typically handled via GoZ or a Python reference obj translator now, which also handles the welding, post transform, and vertex order stuff. A different topic, but would be nice if such a thing were just built into the Figure Menu or Export options somehow.

End of diversion.

Rhia474 posted at 5:05 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457027

Of course when you look at promo renders with, again, a very small number of exception, or try with the settings provided, you will get crappy results. No one teaches how to use it. I did not use Firefly since Poser 12 came out, but I kludge my way through everything. It is super frustrating and very lonely.

On the same boat with you there.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Asus N50-600 - Intel Core i5-8400 CPU @ 2.80GHz · Windows 10 Home/11 upgrade 64-bit · 16GB DDR4 RAM · 1TB SSD and 1TB HDD; Graphics: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 1060 - 6GB GDDR5 VRAM; Software: Poser Pro 11x

As I understand this, it would be easy to create morphs from a base geometry *.obj, but when you want to create new morphs on top of already existing morphs, you will might get into trouble, because you will have to deal with splitting up body part seams.

"With Poser 13, you can now set up your own start-up scene, complete with your favorite figures, props, and settings."

Can someone explain why this is listed as a new feature? We've had this ability for years. What's different about it?

AmbientShade posted at 3:53 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457054

"With Poser 13, you can now set up your own start-up scene, complete with your favorite figures, props, and settings."

Can someone explain why this is listed as a new feature? We've had this ability for years. What's different about it?

This part puzzled me as well. Does Bondware really know Poser?

Nevertrumper posted at 11:45 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457046

As I understand this, it would be easy to create morphs from a base geometry *.obj, but when you want to create new morphs on top of already existing morphs, you will might get into trouble, because you will have to deal with splitting up body part seams.

Not if the body parts are never split up, say through the use of a script or plugin, or export method to handle this. Where you absolutely would get in trouble is that the baked in morph state would be applied again, doubling its effect. It would be useless as, say, an adjustment morph to modify the specific state of another morph. This is called morph telescoping.

If you morph over a morph as a default state, return it to Poser, subtract it, and are left with only the new result (the difference) the new difference morph will behave as if it was created over the subtracted morph but will not double the baked in reference (telescoping) because it has been subtracted.

How might you subtract a value of 1 state added to a value of 2 state?  By subtracting 1 and producing only a result of 1 state.

* or a value of 1 state added to value of 1 state (2), subtracting 1 and leaving 1... if you prefer.

A good example would be an expression morph designed to work with a custom face morph. If you create the expression over top the custom face and apply it as a morph target and dial it to 1, the custom face is baked into the expression morph and applied again. Telescoping. The custom face is doubled and surely won't look right when you dial in the expression. But if you subtract the custom face from the expression morph, which was built in relation to that custom face, and apply the result you are left with just the expression. Works properly. It's the difference derived through subtraction.

PML and GoZ can do this. You can also do it manually by dialing the baked in morph's original dial to -1, the new morph (that was created with the original baked in) to 1, export the result as a morph target, apply that morph target and the baked in morph will be subtracted from the resulting morph. So when you activate that morph it will behave accordingly in relation to the morph that was initially present without applying that reference morph again.

Rhia474 posted at 5:05 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457027

Superfly does not look better because there are no good tutorials as to how to use it. End users need to scour for how-tos or ask people here and kludge our way through until we can figure it out, or rely of people like Snarly to convert things.

Of course when you look at promo renders with, again, a very small number of exception, or try with the settings provided, you will get crappy results. No one teaches how to use it. I did not use Firefly since Poser 12 came out, but I kludge my way through everything. It is super frustrating and very lonely.

Hmm - I could take that as a project. Do people still even look at the tutorial section these days?

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

Nevertrumper posted at 5:05 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457060

AmbientShade posted at 3:53 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457054

"With Poser 13, you can now set up your own start-up scene, complete with your favorite figures, props, and settings."

Can someone explain why this is listed as a new feature? We've had this ability for years. What's different about it?

This part puzzled me as well. Does Bondware really know Poser?

:))  It seems to be simple " Chinese marketing strategy " they also make loads of products that actually are the same, even upgrades the only thing they change is the Package and slightly change the naming of the product but the inner does not change, then they say it is all new. Sure it is as the packing has upgraded. Customers buy the same thing over and over again thinking they got something all new :) 

More has been removed in Poser then it has upgraded since Poser 11.1 with the excuse that it is not needed. So yes set up your own start-up scene is a part of Poser ever since , Unimesh is a Part of Poser ever since, just the names will change, some numbers will change and the Package will change.

I remember at RDNA in there forums when they proposed Unimesh simple skinning to be working in future Poser versions, so SM did add this feature in 2014  on a upgrade and expanded it in Poser 11 Pro  or lets say actually it was called GameDEV support at the time meaning that it is a simplified support importing and exporting rigged models from Poser via versa. The Word unimesh is just a change of meaning that actually was used for Figures that had Multiple gender features. But sure you can take ( Words and change the meaning  ) to your own preferences and sell it as NEW FEATURE. 

The only advantage of this strategy might be that end users realize that it exists due the Promoting and start using the already existent features. Disadvantage is they Pay for the renaming's. 

I know i do!! :) And you and your carefully crafted assets are definitely an exception! 

When GameDEV got promoted there were quiet some discussions at RDNA ( Now called Unimesh ) same happens again. I started to study this feature and got into it in 2016 and yes it is fully working just not under the name Unimesh. Now it is a Déjà-vu, big discussions and promoting just like at RDNA for a all new Unimesh GameDEV ( Hint: some might remember the feature .... Computing magnets in world space ) how many of you do understand this feature and why it is a part of Poser ? Was it a Conflict caused due the now so called unimesh support that was breaking older Poser models articulations ? 

" ( Hint: some might remember the feature .... Computing magnets in world space ) how many of you do understand this feature and why it is a part of Poser ?"

Which feature? Compute magnets in world space? I've seen it. Properties tab, Body actor, below the conforming options. I'm woefully under informed about magnets, in actual practice, at this point in Poser tech I've never had the need to use them other than by force using legacy figures equipped with such Deformers. I vaguely remember using magnets for morphs in Poser 6 or 7 I guess. What's your point? The Daz figures being rendered inoperable in Poser?

Apparently some problems with V4 regarding back in the day...

https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24018/poser-pro-2014-carrara-8-and-victoria-4-2

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 7:55 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457079

Hmm - I could take that as a project. Do people still even look at the tutorial section these days?

I don't, but I do look at tutorials when Renderosity features them in their daily blog/email.

They posted a Blender for Beginners tutorial recently, and I'm trying it.

@AmbientShade  it's a little different & products can add to the startup scene list.

primorge posted at 9:52 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457085

" ( Hint: some might remember the feature .... Computing magnets in world space ) how many of you do understand this feature and why it is a part of Poser ?"

Which feature? Compute magnets in world space? I've seen it. Properties tab, Body actor, below the conforming options. I'm woefully under informed about magnets, in actual practice, at this point in Poser tech I've never had the need to use them other than by force using legacy figures equipped with such Deformers. I vaguely remember using magnets for morphs in Poser 6 or 7 I guess. What's your point? The Daz figures being rendered inoperable in Poser?

Apparently some problems with V4 regarding back in the day...

https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24018/poser-pro-2014-carrara-8-and-victoria-4-2

Yes the new tech cased issues with magnets as they no longer had the same compatibility as before on figures so the new poser that came out basically with extended " Unimesh support " was breaking models that use magnets. Later on a backward compatible feature got launched where you could turn off the "magnets in world space" as it is  the Standard for the new poser GameDEV ( Unimesh ) releases for future model creations that actually were planed.

Creators always used the Traditional Poser rigging methods even that it was planed long ago to start off using simple sinning methods ( witch actually the better choice ) so it is quiet difficult making one understand what the differences really are as creators seem to be stuck in that Triax rigging methods. No wonder as it is the Standard of Poser and as well of DS. So on how I understand that Bondware is planning the first release of a simple skinned figure release it is going to be quiet a big change for most creators. Witch actually already should of happen almost a decade ago. Sure can understand that SM stopped the development as creators never started using that feature in Poser and were fixed on extensions for the Millennium models.  

vopehov506 posted at 11:26 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457091

primorge posted at 9:52 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457085

" ( Hint: some might remember the feature .... Computing magnets in world space ) how many of you do understand this feature and why it is a part of Poser ?"

Which feature? Compute magnets in world space? I've seen it. Properties tab, Body actor, below the conforming options. I'm woefully under informed about magnets, in actual practice, at this point in Poser tech I've never had the need to use them other than by force using legacy figures equipped with such Deformers. I vaguely remember using magnets for morphs in Poser 6 or 7 I guess. What's your point? The Daz figures being rendered inoperable in Poser?

Apparently some problems with V4 regarding back in the day...

https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24018/poser-pro-2014-carrara-8-and-victoria-4-2

Yes the new tech cased issues with magnets as they no longer had the same compatibility as before on figures so the new poser that came out basically with extended " Unimesh support " was breaking models that use magnets. Later on a backward compatible feature got launched where you could turn off the "magnets in world space" as it is  the Standard for the new poser GameDEV ( Unimesh ) releases for future model creations.

V4's magnet derived JCMs are garbage anyway. Good riddance ;)

I'll stick with Poser. I just wish they'd get on with it already. I can do the weird things I want to do with the current tech in Poser. More options are definitely desired. I am starting to feel like I should invest more time with Blender's rigging system. I've been collecting and looking at a lot of things in that environment. My time is finite. Trying to learn Substance Painter, Rizom, modeling tasks, and now it's looking like rigging in Blender too. Bottom line is I was a bit enthusiastic about the new tech coming to Poser but frankly the offerings in 2 consecutive releases makes it look like it's tanking. I'm disappointed in a similar way as I was disappointed with what happened with Carrara.

Guess it's just a game of wait and see.

primorge posted at 6:44 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457075

A good example would be an expression morph designed to work with a custom face morph. If you create the expression over top the custom face and apply it as a morph target and dial it to 1, the custom face is baked into the expression morph and applied again. Telescoping. The custom face is doubled and surely won't look right when you dial in the expression. But if you subtract the custom face from the expression morph, which was built in relation to that custom face, and apply the result you are left with just the expression. Works properly. It's the difference derived through subtraction.

PML and GoZ can do this. You can also do it manually by dialing the baked in morph's original dial to -1, the new morph (that was created with the original baked in) to 1, export the result as a morph target, apply that morph target and the baked in morph will be subtracted from the resulting morph. So when you activate that morph it will behave accordingly in relation to the morph that was initially present without applying that reference morph again.

You can do this with GoZ. No need for pml, which is no longer available and wouldn't work with P12 anyway. 

tim posted at 11:24 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457090

@AmbientShade  it's a little different & products can add to the startup scene list.

I see. Thanks Tim.

AmbientShade posted at 12:29 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457102

primorge posted at 6:44 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457075

A good example would be an expression morph designed to work with a custom face morph. If you create the expression over top the custom face and apply it as a morph target and dial it to 1, the custom face is baked into the expression morph and applied again. Telescoping. The custom face is doubled and surely won't look right when you dial in the expression. But if you subtract the custom face from the expression morph, which was built in relation to that custom face, and apply the result you are left with just the expression. Works properly. It's the difference derived through subtraction.

PML and GoZ can do this. You can also do it manually by dialing the baked in morph's original dial to -1, the new morph (that was created with the original baked in) to 1, export the result as a morph target, apply that morph target and the baked in morph will be subtracted from the resulting morph. So when you activate that morph it will behave accordingly in relation to the morph that was initially present without applying that reference morph again.

You can do this with GoZ. No need for pml, which is no longer available and wouldn't work with P12 anyway. 

Correction AmbientShade.

I can do this with GoZ, PML, or just Poser. I use PML the most because of those 3 options it works the best across multiple softwares.

primorge posted at 12:50 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457104

AmbientShade posted at 12:29 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457102

primorge posted at 6:44 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457075

A good example would be an expression morph designed to work with a custom face morph. If you create the expression over top the custom face and apply it as a morph target and dial it to 1, the custom face is baked into the expression morph and applied again. Telescoping. The custom face is doubled and surely won't look right when you dial in the expression. But if you subtract the custom face from the expression morph, which was built in relation to that custom face, and apply the result you are left with just the expression. Works properly. It's the difference derived through subtraction.

PML and GoZ can do this. You can also do it manually by dialing the baked in morph's original dial to -1, the new morph (that was created with the original baked in) to 1, export the result as a morph target, apply that morph target and the baked in morph will be subtracted from the resulting morph. So when you activate that morph it will behave accordingly in relation to the morph that was initially present without applying that reference morph again.

You can do this with GoZ. No need for pml, which is no longer available and wouldn't work with P12 anyway. 

Correction AmbientShade.

I can do this with GoZ, PML, or just Poser. I use PML the most because of those 3 options it works the best across multiple softwares.

I am curious if Ken1171's unimesh exporter does this as well.

In any case ADP's OBJ exporter does it too. And is compatible Poser 12.

So I'll correct that statement

I can do this with PML, GoZ, Just Poser, or ADP's Exporter Script.

primorge posted at 12:50 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457104

Correction AmbientShade.

I can do this with GoZ, PML, or just Poser. I use PML the most because of those 3 options it works the best across multiple softwares.

Gotcha. I read it as "PML and GoZ" as in combination, not "either/or".

Would it not also be possible to create morphs for exported figures if you used an application that could correct and copy vert order? There are plugins available for blender that will correct them. I'm sure other modeling apps would also do it.

tim posted at 11:24 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457090

@AmbientShade  it's a little different & products can add to the startup scene list.

Can't stuff be added to the startup scene anyway? Though I prefer to start with an empty scene, and set up my default scene to load without La Femme, or Andy, etc.

Is the change that you can have several different startup scenes?

AmbientShade posted at 12:59 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457107

primorge posted at 12:50 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457104

Correction AmbientShade.

I can do this with GoZ, PML, or just Poser. I use PML the most because of those 3 options it works the best across multiple softwares.

Gotcha. I read it as "PML and GoZ" as in combination, not "either/or".

Would it not also be possible to create morphs for exported figures if you used an application that could correct and copy vert order? There are plugins available for blender that will correct them. I'm sure other modeling apps would also do it.

Yes. I believe that most exporter scripts already do this, PML for example. Guessing here. GoZ I can't say. It handles the welding so it must do vertex order correction, right?

ODF has a vertex winding order correction script. It might be bundled with Pydeltamesh-main, I seem to recall him mentioning that. He used to use it to correct exports to and from Wings.

If you are interested in that script, pop over to his thread and inquire. He probably has it on Github.

As a humorous aside. All this stuff is small potatoes for ODF, what with his coding experience and whatnot... He's more crafty than he looks lol.

Not sure who wrote the copy for the latest news piece but you could use a clarity editor. A lot of questions here could have been avoided with some cleanup in phrasing.

primorge posted at 1:09 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457109

ODF has a vertex winding order correction script. It might be bundled with Pydeltamesh-main, I seem to recall him mentioning that. He used to use it to correct exports to and from Wings.

If you are interested in that script, pop over to his thread and inquire. He probably has it on Github.

Yes, that's correct. On my Github under pydeltamesh, script name is fixVertexOrder. It's run from within Poser but works on OBJ files. No actual morph loading included. (One needs to grab the whole repo to run it, not just the script itself.)

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.

The boxes on the left show all the scenes you can click to open.  The top are your latest scenes and the bottom are for standards.  That way you can resume or start a new scene without having to load Poser then load another scene.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

Richard60 posted at 8:24 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457155

The boxes on the left show all the scenes you can click to open.  The top are your latest scenes and the bottom are for standards.  That way you can resume or start a new scene without having to load Poser then load another scene.

Nice, but not exactly a game changer.

I wonder what the "launch options" are? Can you set it to work like previous versions of Poser, and just open your launch scene without requiring the user to pick something?

That of course is the big problem isn't it?  What would be considered game changer?  A lot of Poser improvements are little things that just make it nicer/easier to use.  Like being able to delete multiple objects from a scene by selecting them in the Hierarchy Editor and right clicking delete.  Or having the menus open collapsed.  About the only new thing is AI.  Now it would be nice to get improvements to some of the other Poser features like the cloth room or animation.  The problem with that is that only a small number of people would use it so it is not a game changer.  Me personally, I would like the cloth room (or Bullet Physics Latest) to be able to make cloth work more like real life so we could get rid of stupid conforming clothes.  Most of the time spent making content is wasted trying to get one figure to fit over another figure.  And then all the time spent trying to get rid of poke through.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

I started playing with Poser in 2001 but looking at my buying history it only became a hobby from 2005 onwards.  In all that time I have upgraded to the latest release of Poser but I have to say that none of them were game changers for me although some came close.  The game dev version was nearly a game changer but for all the wrong reasons (I still hate the deactivation feature) but Sub-Surface-Scattering was a big jump for me and, more recently the introduction of Superfly.  With both features I needed a lot of guidance which, thankfully, was easy to find thanks to the many Poser forums.  I gave up on Superfly more than once but I am really glad I stuck with it as I now use nothing else.  

Looking back the real trend over the years has been the drive to improve the renders while driving down the rendering time.  With Poser 12 and Superfly I can render to a quality level that was not possible a few years ago and my render times are measured in minutes rather than days or even over night.

I can understand the hope and wishes for great changes if you use Poser to make money in a professional manner but for me as a hobbyist I am more than happy with a steady progression.  

Looking back Poser has given me fun for over 20 years and at a cost much less than many other hobbies, not to mention the fact I can enjoy it from the comfort of my own home so what is there to complain about?

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

ssgbryan posted at 2:06 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457012

Until there is a 1-click firefly-superfly conversion process for ALL materials, superfly is irrelevant for a lot of users.

From my perspective - This isn't Poser 13. 

It is Poser 12.1.

I agree. When SuperFly came out Poser shot itself in the foot and lost a big opportunity.

Poser depends upon external content and so much of it was shipped before SuperFly existed.

Users tried rendering their pre-existing content in SuperFly and were met with "demon eyes", "skin like coal" or at best a figure that looked like she was wrapped in cling-film.

Yes the very technical users could manually fix these things but it is a tedious job with so many materials and so many character sets, and the material room is an un-useable nightmare for most. So they don't bother, they stick to FireFly.

Some top vendors like SV7 released characters with SuperFly materials included - but these invariably looked worse than the SSS materials they shipped that worked in both FireFly and SuperFly.

I find that SV7 SSS materials render even nicer in SuperFly than Firefly, but that's partly as I like a good but not excessive degree of specularity on skin to give extra depth to renders.

For other vendors like Tempesta3D I find their SSS materials look far worse in SuperFly as the Specularity is so high, so have to manually amend these if I want to use SuperFly - and it's very painful. 

Poser will never compete with the big players for the most technical of users so they should focus on its users needs - ease of use. 

SuperFly is a powerful disaster to date.

Richard60 posted at 9:43 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457159

That of course is the big problem isn't it?  What would be considered game changer?  A lot of Poser improvements are little things that just make it nicer/easier to use.  Like being able to delete multiple objects from a scene by selecting them in the Hierarchy Editor and right clicking delete.  Or having the menus open collapsed.  About the only new thing is AI.  Now it would be nice to get improvements to some of the other Poser features like the cloth room or animation.  The problem with that is that only a small number of people would use it so it is not a game changer.  Me personally, I would like the cloth room (or Bullet Physics Latest) to be able to make cloth work more like real life so we could get rid of stupid conforming clothes.  Most of the time spent making content is wasted trying to get one figure to fit over another figure.  And then all the time spent trying to get rid of poke through.

I think the promised unimesh support would have been a game-changer, though perhaps one the average user wouldn't understand at first.(Judging from the number of people who think it has something to do with V4, lol.)

I would like improvements in dynamic hair and cloth. I think a decent number of people use dynamic cloth. Few use dynamic hair, but I do.

But...improvements could change that. It looks like a lot of DS users use dForce hair and cloth, so if dynamic hair and cloth worked better in Poser, I think more people would use them.

And I wonder if it's possible to make the material room easier. Vue's materials are so much simpler to understand; could they make Poser's materials more like that? And speaking of Vue, I'd use instancing if it was available in Poser.

hornet3d posted at 4:50 AM Tue, 28 February 2023 - #4457177

I started playing with Poser in 2001 but looking at my buying history it only became a hobby from 2005 onwards.  In all that time I have upgraded to the latest release of Poser but I have to say that none of them were game changers for me although some came close.  The game dev version was nearly a game changer but for all the wrong reasons (I still hate the deactivation feature) but Sub-Surface-Scattering was a big jump for me and, more recently the introduction of Superfly.  With both features I needed a lot of guidance which, thankfully, was easy to find thanks to the many Poser forums.  I gave up on Superfly more than once but I am really glad I stuck with it as I now use nothing else.  

Looking back the real trend over the years has been the drive to improve the renders while driving down the rendering time.  With Poser 12 and Superfly I can render to a quality level that was not possible a few years ago and my render times are measured in minutes rather than days or even over night.

I can understand the hope and wishes for great changes if you use Poser to make money in a professional manner but for me as a hobbyist I am more than happy with a steady progression.  

Looking back Poser has given me fun for over 20 years and at a cost much less than many other hobbies, not to mention the fact I can enjoy it from the comfort of my own home so what is there to complain about?

I thought Poser 5 was a game changer. Multiple runtimes, dynamic hair and cloth, plus Firefly was so much better than the Poser 4 renderer.

And Poser 9 (I think) gave us weight-mapping, which was a game changer for sure.

I don't think people are complaining, so much as wondering if upgrading is worth it.

Is the upgrade worth it is the $250 question.

No unimesh - no new unimesh figure.

In the run up, unimesh was the big selling point.  Now it is gone, and no one from Bondware can tell us what is now the big new selling point.

Improvements to Superfly isn't a big selling point when most of my content doesn't ship with Superfly materials, and I have yet to see a way to batch convert materials.  I have over 2Tb of content, and I have no intention of converting all of it one by one.

Bondware made this mess - they need to come up with a solution.

Improvements to weights and morph copy transfer sound interesting. Improvements to walk and talk designer are surprising and welcome actually. These improvements coupled with a few of the things added to 12 compels me to spend the little extra money I have on it.

I have a ponderous amount of software subscriptions now, the no show of Unimesh makes me falter a bit. Honestly I could wait on Poser 13 and pay off Rizom. Full Unimesh was the feature that I felt I needed to be on top of immediately, given my particular interests in Poser. I may drag my feet a bit purchasing 13 and see what people have to say, unfortunately most people on here are obsessed with the coat of paint beauty render stuff and seem pretty disinterested or oblivious to the content creation/figure tech side of things. This is a noticeable growing trend that's worrisome because it's a vicious circle of demand and what is deemed sufficient as a supply.

Just my 2 cents (or actually 200 dollars)

randym77 posted at 10:25 AM Tue, 28 February 2023 - #4457191

hornet3d posted at 4:50 AM Tue, 28 February 2023 - #4457177

I started playing with Poser in 2001 but looking at my buying history it only became a hobby from 2005 onwards.  In all that time I have upgraded to the latest release of Poser but I have to say that none of them were game changers for me although some came close.  The game dev version was nearly a game changer but for all the wrong reasons (I still hate the deactivation feature) but Sub-Surface-Scattering was a big jump for me and, more recently the introduction of Superfly.  With both features I needed a lot of guidance which, thankfully, was easy to find thanks to the many Poser forums.  I gave up on Superfly more than once but I am really glad I stuck with it as I now use nothing else.  

Looking back the real trend over the years has been the drive to improve the renders while driving down the rendering time.  With Poser 12 and Superfly I can render to a quality level that was not possible a few years ago and my render times are measured in minutes rather than days or even over night.

I can understand the hope and wishes for great changes if you use Poser to make money in a professional manner but for me as a hobbyist I am more than happy with a steady progression.  

Looking back Poser has given me fun for over 20 years and at a cost much less than many other hobbies, not to mention the fact I can enjoy it from the comfort of my own home so what is there to complain about?

I thought Poser 5 was a game changer. Multiple runtimes, dynamic hair and cloth, plus Firefly was so much better than the Poser 4 renderer.

And Poser 9 (I think) gave us weight-mapping, which was a game changer for sure.

I don't think people are complaining, so much as wondering if upgrading is worth it.

Of course the term game changer means something different to everyone.  I guess I did not use Poser 4 enough to understand just how much better Poser 5 was but from your description I would agree it was a game changer.   Weight mapping was certainly a big change but as I tend not to render nudes the impact was limited for me.  

I accept people are not complaining, my point was really we have come a long way over the years, game changing upgrades or not.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

You know what I'd like, a lot more than multiple startup scenes? The ability to easily sort runtimes. I know you can do it by editing a text file, but as someone who uses dozens of runtimes and often changes which ones are attached, being able to change the order of runtimes by dragging and dropping, or even having automatic alphabetical sorting would be a game changer for me.

randym77 posted at 4:13 PM Tue, 28 February 2023 - #4457252

You know what I'd like, a lot more than multiple startup scenes? The ability to easily sort runtimes. I know you can do it by editing a text file, but as someone who uses dozens of runtimes and often changes which ones are attached, being able to change the order of runtimes by dragging and dropping, or even having automatic alphabetical sorting would be a game changer for me.

Yes please!

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.

odf posted at 6:31 PM Tue, 28 February 2023 - #4457267

randym77 posted at 4:13 PM Tue, 28 February 2023 - #4457252

You know what I'd like, a lot more than multiple startup scenes? The ability to easily sort runtimes. I know you can do it by editing a text file, but as someone who uses dozens of runtimes and often changes which ones are attached, being able to change the order of runtimes by dragging and dropping, or even having automatic alphabetical sorting would be a game changer for me.

Yes please!

Well, if not included in Poser 13 there is at least a runtime manager script available.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Yeah, it's good that Ken is filling gaps in the Poser feature list, but there shouldn't really be these gaps:

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/157979/runtime-organizer-for-poser-12

Now there is a fun problem.  Poser does not do something so a vendor creates a script to do something.  Does Poser now basically copy the script (or what it does) and add it to the program?  What about the person who wrote the script?  How much should they be paid if at all?  Let's say using made up numbers since I don't know the real numbers that Poser sells 10,000 copies and the script sells 50 copies @ $20 or a total of $1,000.  Does Poser give the script writer 10 cents a copy which works out to the $1,000 dollars or should they get $200,000 since 10,000 people are using his script (or the basics of his script)?  Maybe Poser should get rid of Python so people can't make up scripts to fill in the little holes and wait for the complaint's and do updates to fix these things?  The vast majority of people using Poser are never going to need the features that you are asking for.  A small number have multiple runtimes and one or two have a thousand+.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

Mode: RANT on

EZSkin exists till.... I don't remember, but long enough. And Snarlygribbly has always refused the single cent.
I've help to port EZSkin3 to Poser12 and its PYthon3.x version, but I've developed my own skin, and to respond to ader's "SuperFly is a powerful disaster": you are almost right: even those very old Vic4 are looking so bad

This kind of sentences look like insults to those are looking for a 3D program that is more than just BUY, drop in a scene, RENDER (loooooooong time to wait), publish
Developping its own style / tools are part of the fun
Please: if you don't like Poser, that's ok. Find another software (stable diffusion and its controlnets?) 
Each Poser update / new version generates too many peremptory or denigrating assertions. The crew behind Poser's development has done a huge step, the simple fact to get out of Python2.x for example, plus the rest. Not all software are doing such huge steps...

I really have no problems with people that don't like Poser and its steps, honestly. But there's a golden rule for each human: if you want to be respected, respect the others

Mode: RANT off

𝒫𝒽𝓎𝓁

---

(っ◔◡◔)っ

👿 Win11 on i9-13900K@5GHz, 64GB, RoG Strix B760F Gamng, Asus Tuf Gaming RTX 4070 OC Edition, 1 TB SSD, 6+4+8TB HD
👿 Mac Mini M2, Sonoma 14.6.1, 16GB, 500GB SSD
👿 Nas 10TB
👿 Poser 13 and soon 14 ❤️

Most endusers are LOAD, CONFORM, MAKE ART, Y-Phil.  It has been  like this since 2004 that I am personally aware of (Poser 5 was my gateway drug).

I don't care about the dev's feelings - I have a business relationship with Bondware, not a personal one.

Bondware pumped up unimesh as the main feature.  As an enduser I have no idea how this will impact my use of Poser, but the devs talked it up repeatedly as THE major feature for Poser 13.  30 days from launch, unimesh is now off the table, along with the new unimesh figure that was supposed to come with it.  We also haven't been told if this will show up later in the Poser 13 lifecyle because it isn't done or if it will move to the Poser 14 development cycle.

If it isn't ready, Bondware should consider pushing the launch back until it is.  This launch is starting to look a lot like the Poser 5 launch.  The userbase isn't going to have the stomach for dealing with that (again).

It isn't denigrating to ask why I should upgrade if the main feature isn't going actually be in the program.

It isn't denigrating to ask what other features (if any) are coming to the program.

It isn't denigrating to point out that so far, Bondware has done a really poor job at articulating what other new features are in Poser 13.  Nothing we have been told is quantifiable.

It is Bondware's responsibility to give us a reason to buy the program.

I am still buying Poser 13, of course - but I want to know what I am getting for my money.

Richard60 posted at 11:09 AM Thu, 2 March 2023 - #4457398

Now there is a fun problem.  Poser does not do something so a vendor creates a script to do something.  Does Poser now basically copy the script (or what it does) and add it to the program?  What about the person who wrote the script?  How much should they be paid if at all?  Let's say using made up numbers since I don't know the real numbers that Poser sells 10,000 copies and the script sells 50 copies @ $20 or a total of $1,000.  Does Poser give the script writer 10 cents a copy which works out to the $1,000 dollars or should they get $200,000 since 10,000 people are using his script (or the basics of his script)?  Maybe Poser should get rid of Python so people can't make up scripts to fill in the little holes and wait for the complaint's and do updates to fix these things?  The vast majority of people using Poser are never going to need the features that you are asking for.  A small number have multiple runtimes and one or two have a thousand+.

They did it with Wardrobe Wizard, and I think plenty of people used it. I have no idea what they paid PhilC, but they must have paid him.

I have said it since Poser was acquired by Bondware. The way marketing of this software is handled on their own website is awful. It took almost a year after acquisition to not have nothing but DS sponsored ads when I opened up the Poser products category,  for instance. The separate Poser tab on the landing page is the LAST category. The actual product they own. The last. And don't start me on my rant about promos.  And now the dancing back on unimesh figure and the vague feature list, less than a month from release. Barely any ads for it. No logo release. No promo excitement. Nada.

I really want Poser to succeed. But it won't if it's handled like this.

randym77 posted at 1:55 PM Thu, 2 March 2023 - #4457419

They did it with Wardrobe Wizard, and I think plenty of people used it. I have no idea what they paid PhilC, but they must have paid him.

I loved WW.  It was the only way I could cloth any characters not named V4 or M4 for years.

ssgbryan posted at 5:10 PM Thu, 2 March 2023 - #4457447

randym77 posted at 1:55 PM Thu, 2 March 2023 - #4457419

They did it with Wardrobe Wizard, and I think plenty of people used it. I have no idea what they paid PhilC, but they must have paid him.

I loved WW.  It was the only way I could cloth any characters not named V4 or M4 for years.

I miss WW, I had a slew of converted clothes for the SM G2 series with it... *nostalgia noises*

There has not been any announcement saying there is not going to be a new figure.  In fact it says "The figure to be included as a Default Scene for Poser 13 is still a closely guarded secret."

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

ssgbryan posted at 1:40 PM Thu, 2 March 2023 - #4457417

Most endusers are LOAD, CONFORM, MAKE ART, Y-Phil.  It has been  like this since 2004 that I am personally aware of (Poser 5 was my gateway drug).

THIS. ↑

Don't get me wrong, it's great that some Poser users love tinkering. It's made Poser better for all of us.

But the average user doesn't want to tinker. Aiming Poser at tinkerers makes no sense. Most of us, if we wanted to do more than load, conform, make art, would be using Blender or Maya or Max or something.

THIS, too. ↑

And I say it as someone who loves to tinker.

But only to a certain extent.

I love that I can make my figures look any way I like, just by using Poser's "on-board" tools.

The rigging tools are pretty much perfect "as-is", but I wouldn't mind making the morph brush even better.

Some buggy "recent improvments" should be rolled back, as they are no improvements at all.

But first and foremost development focus should be at making Poser easier to use for hobbyists.

Poser should not go the DAZ way with their extreme divide between "users" and "content creators".

Not everybody needs the latest, greates tech to render photorealistic pics.

Most people want to tell a story or just make a pretty picture.

In their spare time.

Not becoming full fledged professional 3D artists.

There are a lot of other options already for that crowd.

SOME progress is definitely good.

I love that I can weightmap and morph in Poser. That single axis scaling workes properly.

That Firefly works so well now.

But now it's time to consolidate and focus on the user experience. Not waste time trying to shoehorn a "pro" render and rigging engine into it, but widen its usability for example by much better handling of transparency or by instancing.

I dream of forrests and meadows that don't bog Poser down and render in realtime.

Of "out of the box" realistically sculpted figures whose rigging is optimized for Poser.

Which yet can be used and modified as easily as Posette and Dork could be back in the Poser 4 times.

I want the FUN back in Poser.

The playfullness.

Full on photorealism needs absolute perfection.

And perfection is exhausting and boring.

Well we do seem to have somewhat of a consensus that most Poser users want an easy life, an easy to use program - so we come back to the fact that most users content was made for FireFly and frankly works best with FireFly unless you are a major tinkerer - if SuperFly is the future it has to be backwards compatible and so far it isn't - users need to be able to just load a FireFly mat and have it work in SuperFly with no tinkering.

I love to play with the materials in Poser and to kit bash many of the outfits but I accept that I may well be in the minority of Poser users.  I love Superfly but accept that it did raise a few problems when using Firefly materials particularly when is came to figures but life has moved on.  These days it is fairly easy to  easy to find a character with Superfly materials and there are scripts with can make a decent job of converting Firefly materials to Superfly at the click of a button.  OK it is another script but if that is what is needed to keep the cost of the main program down and let users fine tune their own installation then so be it.   The truth is that Firefly still works and there are few hurdles to using Superfly if that is what users prefer.  These days Poser provides a powerful piece of software that is relatively stable and at a cost not beyond the pocket of the average hobbyist.  Of course it can be improved but by using the scripts available it can be tuned to do a great deal more at minimal cost.

So far Bondware have, I believe, made a relatively good job of cleaning up Poser and adding to the existing program.  I am happy to buy Poser 13 based upon their efforts with Poser so far and to use scripts to make the program even more powerful yet easier to use.  It has come a long way since Poser 5 and, for me at least, it has been a journey of both fun and discovery.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Those who still insist that FireFly is the most important, those who are reluctant to implement a new system, and users who are happy with their current system.

That's all well and good.

In the past POSER has always led the way in implementing new systems before DAZ.

Up until POSER2014, POSER was the mainstream, and there were tons of blogs, forums, POSER content stores, etc. all over the world, by users and vendors.

However, since POSER11, no significant new systems have been introduced except for SuperFly. SuperFly has not even caught up with Iray yet.

In the world of 3DCG, toons and artistic methods are necessary, but there are far more people who continue to do 3DCG because they want to create realistic works.

What happened as a result?

In fact, that's why many users, vendors, etc. have migrated to DAZ.

Now POSER is becoming a hobby toy for those who reject the new system.

We don't need to become a DAZ.

No need to follow DAZ.

No need to use DAZ figures.

But if we stop evolving, we will be even more separated from both users and vendors than we are now.

Isn't that where we should learn from DAZ?

And no one left, should not be the case.

3DCG applications that cannot represent the real world will be eliminated.

Dear POSER system programmers, please bring back many users and vendors so that we can have fun and enjoy POSER again, with each amazing room, significant system improvements and exciting new features, just like the old POSER.

From a POSER devotee

hornet3d posted at 9:45 PM Thu, 2 March 2023 - #4457473

I love to play with the materials in Poser and to kit bash many of the outfits but I accept that I may well be in the minority of Poser users.  I love Superfly but accept that it did raise a few problems when using Firefly materials particularly when is came to figures but life has moved on.  These days it is fairly easy to  easy to find a character with Superfly materials and there are scripts with can make a decent job of converting Firefly materials to Superfly at the click of a button.  OK it is another script but if that is what is needed to keep the cost of the main program down and let users fine tune their own installation then so be it.   The truth is that Firefly still works and there are few hurdles to using Superfly if that is what users prefer.  These days Poser provides a powerful piece of software that is relatively stable and at a cost not beyond the pocket of the average hobbyist.  Of course it can be improved but by using the scripts available it can be tuned to do a great deal more at minimal cost.

So far Bondware have, I believe, made a relatively good job of cleaning up Poser and adding to the existing program.  I am happy to buy Poser 13 based upon their efforts with Poser so far and to use scripts to make the program even more powerful yet easier to use.  It has come a long way since Poser 5 and, for me at least, it has been a journey of both fun and discovery.

I basically agree and I am probably also a low level tinkerer. 

I do not understand the Superfly bashing. Superfly is a fantastically versatile tool and a superb render engine. First and foremost, it is not locked to NVIDIA like IRAY, but it will work with AMD hardware as well. Secondly it provides both a physically based method, like IRAY with the use of the standard set of PBR textures, but it also includes a way to make high quality procedural textures, which is light om memory and produce wonderful pictures.

I understand that for those less tinker-minded there needs to be texture packages, and there are. Really good ones too. Like VinceBagna's or the one produced by the late great Dimensiion3D.

As an aside a tip: If you find porting textures for old figures, like V4, to Cycles difficult. Try using the Physically root node and simply attach your available textures to that. Even just doing that will give absolutely decent results.

And if that doesn't float your boat, then I am happy there is still a very effective render engine in Firefly.

Both bases covered as far as I am concerned.

So I have some wishes for P13, which will probably not be fulfilled. At least not all of them. And I'll be cursing that I do not get what I want. But I'll buy the thing anyway I am sure.

Superfly and Firefly are just different artistic media like oil paint and water colors are different media serving to the same end. Both use a brush and a canvas, but the paintings have their own signature. Both have their own techniques to apply color and both have things that are easy to do and things less easy. There is no matter of succession. You can even get the best of both. Make a render with both, overlay the results and rub out where you want to show the lower layer. 

Firefly has its strong points: microfacet displacement is a lot easier in the fake 'artificial' techniques FF is based on, but notoriously fidgety in the physics based processes of SF. Also there is a strong base of legacy content that is based on Firefly. I think Firefly will stay there for a few generations of Poser. The sketch designer is still there also.

FVerbaas posted at 4:33 AM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457574

Firefly has its strong points: microfacet displacement is a lot easier in the fake 'artificial' techniques FF is based on, but notoriously fidgety in the physics based processes of SF.

There's nothing fake about Firefly render time Micropolygonal Dicing. The Reyes method produces a quad that is approximately 1/2 a pixel on a side. Now imagine the level of real time subdivision required by Poser Superfly for a comparable result. Not bashing Superfly here, just clarifying Firefly Micropolygonal Dicing

The Siggraph original paper on the Reyes renderer that's built into Poser (Cook/Carpenter/Catmull)...

The Reyes Image Rendering Architecture

It's subdivision, there's no real world physics based analog in either method as far as I know...

FVerbaas posted at 4:33 AM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457574

Superfly and Firefly are just different artistic media like oil paint and water colors are different media serving to the same end. Both use a brush and a canvas, but the paintings have their own signature. Both have their own techniques to apply color and both have things that are easy to do and things less easy. There is no matter of succession. You can even get the best of both. Make a render with both, overlay the results and rub out where you want to show the lower layer. 

Firefly has its strong points: microfacet displacement is a lot easier in the fake 'artificial' techniques FF is based on, but notoriously fidgety in the physics based processes of SF. Also there is a strong base of legacy content that is based on Firefly. I think Firefly will stay there for a few generations of Poser. The sketch designer is still there also.

Point well made. No need to bash either engine. We will use the one which producers the result we desire.

Having said that, I'd still love to see an upgrade of the implementation of the Superfly Cycles nodes to the current development in Blender.

No one is bashing the engine, Graybeard. 

The issue is that there is no easy way to move legacy materials from firefly to superfly - and Bondware doesn't seem to understand why that is an issue.

The only people they seem to listen to are those that are only interested in doing pin up art.

ssgbryan posted at 1:03 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457623

No one is bashing the engine, Graybeard. 

The issue is that there is no easy way to move legacy materials from firefly to superfly - and Bondware doesn't seem to understand why that is an issue.

The only people they seem to listen to are those that are only interested in doing pin up art.

There is no way to automatically translate a complex material to Superfly for the Firefly render engine. The only way is: Refactor. Piece by piece.
If you don't want to do that, stay with the old engine. And live with the limitations. Don't demand that all others should stop because of you. That would be unfair.

Those who want to keep up with the times, learn something new or buy something. For me, for example, learning is part of the fun.

Anyone who seriously thinks that a digital toy can continue to be successful unchanged after so many years is simply on the wrong track. Even word processor users had to get used to innovations and learn new things (compared to a 3D render engine, word processing is something ridiculously simple).

Sure, Poser is used by many hobbyists, for relaxation after work. But it's no different with electric railroads in many hobby basements. And even there, people who wanted to keep up with the times had to learn a lot of new things.

---

ssgbryan posted at 1:03 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457623

No one is bashing the engine, Graybeard. 

The issue is that there is no easy way to move legacy materials from firefly to superfly - and Bondware doesn't seem to understand why that is an issue.

The only people they seem to listen to are those that are only interested in doing pin up art.

I reiterate the need to produce tutorials for material conversion and the poser material room. There is a way to work this, otherwise vendors would not be able to produce textures for both. There is way too much misunderstanding and obfuscation. Simple, easy language, step by step. Why is that so hard? As an 'end user' (and why do I have the feeling some use this as a pejorative?), I'd like to understand.

I'm not bashing Superfly.

But I believe every cent invested in it's implementation and development INSTEAD of superior figures is a waste of precious resorces.

And given Poser's track record with previous "new and improved" figure meshes, I really don't have much hope they are getting it right, this time.

They'll probably go the Genesis 9 route, getting rid of every single edgeloop and anatomic mesh topology, resulting in a mesh optimized for ZBrush and Superfly. (And professional content creators)

A figure that needs to be subdivided to a million polygons to show some decent detail.

(I truly wish I'm wrong! I truly wish Poser 13 will provide a mesh that finally looks and bends like a real human being right out of the box. I'm waiting 23yrs now for this to happen)

But, if I wanted to do photorealistic art I'd simply learn Blender.

Why spend time learning a crippled derivative rather than using the original Cycles?

*

Poser always was aimed at the poor, huddled masses. THAT was it's strenght. A save haven for all those that were unwilling / unable to join the competetive professional 3D world.

It was the Bob Ross of computer graphics.

In a few short years, AI will have completly taken over 3D art, anyway.

Why should I spend my time trying to coax photorealistic renders out of a programm that was never designed for this, if all I need to do in the future is to type a few words to get Avatar quality AI art?

So instead of trying to make Poser more competetive, make it more fun and acessible.

*

This won't happen, of course, I'm fully aware of that.

I'm just writing this down, so that in a couple of years I can read it again, and saying to myself:

"Yep, I called it."

Again.

@JoePublic

If one follows what you write, the consequence would be to give up Poser. Because it's superfluous. There is already DAZ Studio. Why another program in this direction?

But the (mostly silent) majority of Poser users want more than that. And something else. For example Cycles. More or less usable directly from Poser, so that the preview is correct.

And yes: Photorealism is a natural part of the 3D area. Even 2D comics are gradually moving in that direction. Why would Poser neglect this?

It may be that your focus is more on stylistic graphics. Reason enough for you to want to force all other users to do what you like?

---

Although I have been playing with Poser for over twenty years the emphasis really should be on the play aspect.  For this reason I see myself as a dedicated hobbyist with some very limited skills but I am happy with what I can create with Superfly.

I don't profess this to be a stunning render but for someone with limited skills I have to say I am happy with what Poser can do for me.  I have created the character from a lot of playing with, and merging, commercial characters that are available in the marketplace and, although there are few good sci if outfits out there, some of what there is, is stunning.

I have tended to lean towards a sharp image purely on the basis that one of the criticisms often leveled at Superfly is that is produces soft renders. 

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Over at Hivewire, they were talking about displacement in Superfly. Supposedly, it's being added to Blender, so maybe it's coming to Poser eventually, too?

I think a big part of the problem with Superfly is it's still a work in progress. Sometimes updates break materials that used to work. I think that discourages some people from wanting to learn it.

Though I guess that happened with Firefly, too. Seems like it wasn't very often, though. It was more stable over all.

I mostly hear ( Read about ) rendering, materials but about the very needed parts almost no one is talking about, nor asking for them. The assets them selves. all seems to be stuck a decade ago. sure there might be enough old figures around as long V4 is supported. But what will Poser be with just a render engine loads of texture settings and no new 3D models. Well sure you might start to make texture settings on primitives. I personally think that the main fun part on Poser is the Posing of 3D models and not spending days on figuring out texturing and running hours of renderings just to get a right texture setting. Well the name already tells it ( Poser = Posing assets ) 

You can run P4 and get stunning render results but well you need a stunning 3D model or are we arrived on a point where majority of users only Want render cycles. For these a better hobby would be to take a camera and go out to make some realistic Pictures, there a 3D model is not needed and the pictures would look most realistic.

I might be wrong and there are just almost no 3D model creators left for poser that could talk about this matter, so what remains is only to talk about texturing the remains.

So if Majority just wants " Render Cycles " Texturing  you might as well cut down poser to a Material room , would not be a big step away as already quiet some features gotten removed, Poser might even end up as a great  Substance Painter. I rather think that the major fun part in poser is the posing of assets, and these actually should be the main discussions rather then loads of confusing texture nodes

Keep the Texturing simple but make the Models great and Complex, with good articulations, as you can not make a crappy old Model better just by using render cycles. But there might not be any other choice then to make better textures for the old models as there are not many new ones. Actually the point where you should start making some changes.

vopehov506 posted at 4:17 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457649

I might be wrong and there are just almost no 3D model creators left for poser that could talk about this matter, so what remains is only to talk about texturing the remains.

👍

primorge posted at 4:36 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457652

vopehov506 posted at 4:17 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457649

I might be wrong and there are just almost no 3D model creators left for poser that could talk about this matter, so what remains is only to talk about texturing the remains.

👍

Well there is Hivewire3D for a start that has Dawn 2 in the wings and talk of a Dragon, not to mention all the creations that are available here.  Ken 1171_Designs has concentrated on some superb scripts for Poser 12 recently but his store includes outfits and body types for Dawn,  Coflek_gnorg is prolific when it comes to 3D content and most of the more recent creations have both Firefly and Superfly materials included.   ShaaraMuse3D has some wonderful modular 3D kits and also brings a good selection of HDRIs.  Ali and Afrodite-Ohki provides a vast range of hairstyles that can me used with a range of figures.  I could go on but these are the vendors who creations I use on a regular basis.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

vopehov506 posted at 4:34 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457651

So if Majority just wants " Render Cycles " Texturing  you might as well cut down poser to a Material room , would not be a big step away as already quiet some features gotten removed, Poser might even end up as a great  Substance Painter. I rather think that the major fun part in poser is the posing of assets, and these actually should be the main discussions rather then loads of confusing texture nodes

Keep the Texturing simple but make the Models great and Complex, with good articulations, as you can not make a crappy old Model better just by using render cycles. But there might not be any other choice then to make better textures for the old models as there are not many new ones. Actually the point where you should start making some changes.

Understanding what the majority want is very difficult to define.  You could draw a conclusion from many of the posts here but the problem with that is the majority of Poser users do not visit forums and those that do often only do so in lurk mode, something I suspect is not unique to Poser users.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

JoePublic posted at 2:58 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457639

I'm not bashing Superfly.

In a few short years, AI will have completly taken over 3D art, anyway.

Not too sure about that. A lot of folks collect content the same way people collect action figures, or dolls, or model cars. AI can't replace that. And with the explosion of 3D printing we can now print out our massive collection of 3D content to display on our real book shelves and mantles next to the action figures and model cars.

AmbientShade posted at 6:05 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457659

JoePublic posted at 2:58 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457639

I'm not bashing Superfly.

In a few short years, AI will have completly taken over 3D art, anyway.

Not too sure about that. A lot of folks collect content the same way people collect action figures, or dolls, or model cars. AI can't replace that. And with the explosion of 3D printing we can now print out our massive collection of 3D content to display on our real book shelves and mantles next to the action figures and model cars.

No, that's silly! That'll never be a thing!

(Hides box of Poser 6 CE behind his back he just bought on US ebay for $200 just to get that old MIKI content)

;-)

All the more a reason that we don't water down Poser's "soul" by trying to keep up with the Joneses.

That we keep Poser "personal" and welcoming. Photorealism is great, but needs a lot of dedication and training and discipline:

https://www.cgtrader.com/blog/portraits-of-the-21st-century-the-most-photorealistic-3d-renderings-of-human-beings

Make even the slightest mistake, and the Uncanny Valley will swallow you whole.

But this part of 3D will soon become obsolete by AI, I'm convinced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCgl1NkENQI&t=9s

*

Instead give people Figures with personality they can love, like Posette and Dork or Vicky 3.

Make them better, sure, no need anymore for bowling ball shoulders or intersecting limbs.

But keep them easy to modify and accessible, so people can make them "theirs" even without years of formal training.

I wish the heydays of Poser back, with a thriving community. Noone needed Z-Brush or a 3D painting suite to take part in the fun. Dr Geep built houses from Poser primitives and Wings 3D was almost like black magic.

Yes, even back then some were more professional than others, but the standards were still so low, that noone felt excluded.

*

Anyway, it is what it is now.

Poser will go more and more "Pro" and leave the amateurs behind.

We'll see how that plays out.

On what basis do you say that they will be replaced by AI?

As with POSER, DAZ, and Blender, there are many users who enjoy creating.

It doesn't end with just buying content, arranging it, and rendering it.

You can make your own props and figures, import them to POSER, and create scenes.

There are many users and vendors who enjoy POSER in this way.

I am one of them.

It is an enjoyment that cannot be experienced with automatic processing by AI.

To do so, I have to learn new functions and systems.

Any application, even Excel or Word, requires learning new features in new versions.

Even more so with 3DCG applications, a lot of learning is required.

However, it is a great pleasure to build a scene with objects and figures that I have created in this way.

Therefore, the evolution of POSER should not be stopped.

Vendors will be lost.

That means there will be no new content to buy.

POSER has always retained the much-criticized user interface and maintained usability for the end user.

Therefore, even if POSER evolves, the simple use of buying content, arranging it, and rendering it will remain the same.

I am now taking a break from POSER.

I am taking a break from POSER because I am losing the desire to create things to import into the current POSER.

So,   that everyone who creates

To create great content,

To maintain that motivation, 

I must not stop the evolution of POSER.

"AI will have completly taken over 3D art, anyway."

I wonder how many specialties died down ONLY because someone predicted they would die down. In any case, cinema didn't kill the radio, tv didn't kill cinema, internet didn't kill tv, etc etc.

More options doesn't mean the death of an option. Only if you give up on it ;)

Edit because I remembered a piece  of trivia: can't remember who was big in tech business in the early 90s said that the internet was just a passing fad and would go away in less than a decade. LMAO. Predictions don't usually stand the  pass of time.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

Sorry, powerful though it is, when compared to Poser I cannot think of AI as anything more than a make art button.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

As MNE said: if your purpose is to simply create pictures, you've got the 3D programs, the A.I. programs, the 'shop-alike program etc...
And you will probably get lost because all the time you will be looking for an ever changing said-perfection, kind of running after... what?
Even though making art can be done in several ways, the "fastfood" way of making pictures using A.I. is tiring in the long way. I've used and sometimes I play with Stable Diffusion, but in ma case it's just because I'm lazy, ending in doing hundreds of pictures during a many hours session.

IMO: nothing constructive, very few things to learn (oh yes just the right words for both prompts)
Our brains are requiring more than this laziness or they shrink. They require to learn new things on a regular basis. The learning curve of the A.I. is not so steep, it is quickly covered, even tough new modules and tools are coming regularly.

Psychologically, I remain unsatisfied if not bored with A.I., even if sometimes the resulting picture is amazing
I repeat: IMO.

Now, even though you're not a modeler (and I'm not, indeed, at least as long as I don't retire), building a scene, looking tor the items that are missing in it, building the material, looking for the perfect lighting, posing the characters (am I going to keep them partially naked or will I use a dynamic, complex cloth) etc... is part of the process and for me the most important part of the fun.

These 3D program won't die: many users have gone beyond the simple drop'n'click milestone. The users that are staying back in it either have a whole other process in mind, such as virtual novels (adult or not) or comic books in the process, or they'd better leave the 3D world for A.I. programs.

𝒫𝒽𝓎𝓁

---

(っ◔◡◔)っ

👿 Win11 on i9-13900K@5GHz, 64GB, RoG Strix B760F Gamng, Asus Tuf Gaming RTX 4070 OC Edition, 1 TB SSD, 6+4+8TB HD
👿 Mac Mini M2, Sonoma 14.6.1, 16GB, 500GB SSD
👿 Nas 10TB
👿 Poser 13 and soon 14 ❤️

I haven't heard Radio since I got a Casette Recorder in 1980.

I wasn't in a cinema since I could afford a Video Recorder in 1982.

I don't own a TV (Or a record player, a casette recorder or a video recorder) since I bought my first PC in 2000.

I stopped physical scale modelling since I started doing 3D modelling.

(I still collect vintage scale modelling kits, though)

*

We already have Deepfakes, allowing us to resurrect long gone movie stars. We already can recreate convincing photorealistic pictures.

Perhaps in a year or two, we probably can feed a movie script to an AI and out comes the next Marvel blockbuster.

"Hand made" visual art will be deader than a hobnail.

There might be some "artistic" niches left, like there are still audiophiles left who mess about with physical records or even tapes instead of mp3's. Heck, even downloading mp3'sis obsolete now, since the majority is streaming music on demand. Same for movies. Physical CD's? My latest laptop doesn't even have a CD player anymore. Lol.

*

I really don't know Poser's endgame here. What's their vision?

Do they really think a slightly less crippled implementation of Cycles would bring all the high end DAZ content creators back to Poser?

Or even lure in new content creators?

Honestly...To Hell with all that tiresome 3D modelling and scene building and rendering.

I only learned that because there was no alternative.

(Forgot to mention I never picked up a pen anymore, since I bought Poser)

I want a working Replicator (Almost there, thanks to Photogrammetry and 3D Printing) and a Holodeck.

;-)

I might keep a few books, though. I just like their smell.

Yes, AI can do a lot nowadays, but for me it’s just the satisfaction to do things myself!

Coming back to the actual Conversation:

After taking a closer look at the pre announcement of Poser 13 and the notice that Unimesh will not come at the launch of P13, I was wondering if the cause might be all the changes made on Poser since PP11.2 . My self already producing Single skin ( Unimesh figures ) with no trouble since about 2016  that work perfectly in Poser, this could be the main issue that is preventing them making that start up release. Concluding that I tried making these figures in Poser 12 and there sure came up some issues due the removal of certain Poser functions. So could say ( Stuck in the PP11 universe for this amazing feature ) Sometimes upgrades can also cause a loss of something that was consistent,  it was not commonly used causing the function not to work properly any more.

The function made by SM for Poser to be able to communicate in a better way with external 3D Programms witch actually is a Import export function for single skin models it might have been overseen and broken after all these upgrades, all was rather concentrated on the render engine, material room and store integration instead of being concentrated on rigged figure creations upgrades.

Allot of times Upgrades can cause also more damage then it could be doing any good.

Sure, users ask for Improvements, upgrades for there habits and what they are using the Program for, but sometimes they just overlook that it is already there, already a part of the program just not as a simple button. 

In the other hand it also might be better to skip that Single skin (Unimesh) upgrade as I doubt that there are enough  3D mesh creators what are willing to make such a jump. A later upgrade on Poser 13 for this feature also might be very difficult as it would simply change the whole tech, so it might eventually be a poser 14 or 15 plan who knows. So I do not really think that this single skin setup room feature will be a simple update of Poser 13 later on.

In any case, we're not getting full unimesh support, as it was intended by the developers of Poser, this time around. Time to continue on with our projects as we have, business as usual. The render folks get their toys. The figure/content creators get improved implementations of copy morphs and weights (and perhaps a couple hidden tweaks besides to minor things), the animators get tweaks to walk and talk designer. There's plenty to do with Poser if you like working with it, things continue on as they were. That about sums it up.

JoePublic posted at 7:06 AM Sun, 5 March 2023 - #4457702

I haven't heard Radio since I got a Casette Recorder in 1980.

I wasn't in a cinema since I could afford a Video Recorder in 1982.

I don't own a TV (Or a record player, a casette recorder or a video recorder) since I bought my first PC in 2000.

I stopped physical scale modelling since I started doing 3D modelling.

(I still collect vintage scale modelling kits, though)

Yes, because the success of everything in the world spins around your specific bellybutton.

Sorry, I know no kinder way of saying that your single personal experience doesn't mean a lot in the grand scheme of things. You might move on, and you're very much allowed to. It doesn't change things for everyone else. My father listens to radio 8+ hours a day, and he STARTED doing that a couple years ago. Up until I separated from my ex-husband, we'd go to the movie theater so much we had a collection of cinema cups themed around the movies we'd watch. And it's not out of nostalgia: I'm 37 and those were mostly Marvel superhero movie cups.

To your predictions, I say only: humans NEED art. Humans need to create, and to imagine. Tech can come to make entire movies with AI perhaps, people won't stop making them by hand anyway, because our mental health requires art. To make it or to consume it. Industry has created many ways to automatize almost all sorts of crafts, and that hasn't stopped people from crafting anyway. If it stops being profitable, it  will still be done simply because it pleases us  to do.

And we don't know Poser's endgame, but have we ever stopped to think that they can be simply trying their best to get back up to speed with a program that was abandoned for years, after having gone through several different companies and becoming a messy amalgamation of mixed up code? And all that with what seems to be a very small team for such a large task. They might just be fixing up this and that before they can bring out something new. (DISCLAIMER: I am not a Bondware employee, contrary to what people might think. This is me CONJECTURATING, opinions only.)

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

vopehov506 posted at 11:25 AM Sun, 5 March 2023 - #4457731

In the other hand it also might be better to skip that Single skin (Unimesh) upgrade as I doubt that there are enough  3D mesh creators what are willing to make such a jump. A later upgrade on Poser 13 for this feature also might be very difficult as it would simply change the whole tech, so it might eventually be a poser 14 or 15 plan who knows. So I do not really think that this single skin setup room feature will be a simple update of Poser 13 later on.

Supposedly they are re-writing Poser from the ground up. I imagine that's quite difficult, and even with their best efforts, there will be issues with backward compatibility.

And if Bondware has rewritten the Poser core, who knows if they haven't prepared a way to integrate full Unimesh support, probably not yet completely finished, which may mean later.

𝒫𝒽𝓎𝓁

---

(っ◔◡◔)っ

👿 Win11 on i9-13900K@5GHz, 64GB, RoG Strix B760F Gamng, Asus Tuf Gaming RTX 4070 OC Edition, 1 TB SSD, 6+4+8TB HD
👿 Mac Mini M2, Sonoma 14.6.1, 16GB, 500GB SSD
👿 Nas 10TB
👿 Poser 13 and soon 14 ❤️

Y-Phil posted at 3:50 PM Sun, 5 March 2023 - #4457764

And if Bondware has rewritten the Poser core, who knows if they haven't prepared a way to integrate full Unimesh support, probably not yet completely finished, which may mean later.

To me that's the most likely scenario.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.

hornet3d posted at 5:52 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457656

primorge posted at 4:36 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457652

vopehov506 posted at 4:17 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457649

I might be wrong and there are just almost no 3D model creators left for poser that could talk about this matter, so what remains is only to talk about texturing the remains.

👍

Well there is Hivewire3D for a start that has Dawn 2 in the wings and talk of a Dragon, not to mention all the creations that are available here.  Ken 1171_Designs has concentrated on some superb scripts for Poser 12 recently but his store includes outfits and body types for Dawn,  Coflek_gnorg is prolific when it comes to 3D content and most of the more recent creations have both Firefly and Superfly materials included.   ShaaraMuse3D has some wonderful modular 3D kits and also brings a good selection of HDRIs.  Ali and Afrodite-Ohki provides a vast range of hairstyles that can me used with a range of figures.  I could go on but these are the vendors who creations I use on a regular basis.

Let us not forget @erogenesis Project Evolution. That is a wonderful model with heaps of potential and I enjoy using it a lot.

Also LF and LH are not bad models at all, they need a bit more work, but there is potential, not least in the work done by @Afrodite-Ohki

Plus let's not forget the mystery rumour of a new character with P13...

ader posted at 1:53 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456916

Can anyone clarify something for me?

I have dozens of texture sets that do not work with SuperFly due to showing seams, unless Is use the Poser option: Poser Skinning Method : Poser Unimesh

Are we saying that this workaround will go away in Poser 13? If so that will be a big deal for many folks I suspect.

I think the bug has something to do with displacement maps.  A displacement map moves the actual verts.  Superfly already doesn't do micro displacement.  It seems to me that it displaces the verts but does not maintain the weld on a edge.  If so, unimesh (the real thing, not old Daz Millenial figure unimesh) would correct that as there aren't welds.

I'm impressed they could ever make Poser work with welds.  That is way harder to do than unimesh.  But it's probably a million extra lines of code throughout the product, all over the place, to make welds work.  And a million more lines to make everything else work with the weld code.  I'm imagining that it will be easier to just rewrite Poser from scratch.

hornet3d posted at 5:54 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457658

vopehov506 posted at 4:34 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457651

So if Majority just wants " Render Cycles " Texturing  you might as well cut down poser to a Material room , would not be a big step away as already quiet some features gotten removed, Poser might even end up as a great  Substance Painter. I rather think that the major fun part in poser is the posing of assets, and these actually should be the main discussions rather then loads of confusing texture nodes

Keep the Texturing simple but make the Models great and Complex, with good articulations, as you can not make a crappy old Model better just by using render cycles. But there might not be any other choice then to make better textures for the old models as there are not many new ones. Actually the point where you should start making some changes.

Understanding what the majority want is very difficult to define.  You could draw a conclusion from many of the posts here but the problem with that is the majority of Poser users do not visit forums and those that do often only do so in lurk mode, something I suspect is not unique to Poser users.

I would think sales is a good indicator of what the majority wants, no? :)

No.

Vendors at 'Rosity only make what they are personally interested in.  Look at the store right now - All skankware, all the time.  If I am not interested in that - why would I shop here? 

If I want to do images that don't revolve around an early 20's Caucasian, why would I use Poser?  The Poser userbase has shrunk for a reason and it isn't just that GenZ doesn't do computers.  They do phones & tablets - neither of which has the horses to do what Poser or DS artists do.

There is a reason people moved to DS - there is a much wider variety of products over there than there is at 'Rosity.  Daz has themes that they have built upon for at least 15 years, that I am personally aware of.  It is more than just skankware.  Poser doesn't have that, because even though the people running 'Rosity now own Poser - they don't have an in house set of content creators to provide anything that the vendors are not personally interested in making.  They don't have the ability to build up themes, like Daz's Egypt collection, for example.

That being said - if Taffi (Daz's parent company) goes bellyup, other possibilities may emerge....

They banked with Silicon Valley Bank.  If you are unaware, Peter Thiel apparently caused a bank run, and the FDIC had to take it over Friday.  Taffi apparently has no access to money right now, and depending on how this is handled on Mon, there is a chance they won't be able to make payroll. 

I absolutely adore the themed releases that, say RDNA of ancient memory used to do. R'osity used to do them a while ago as well. DAZ still does them all the time, as you say. 

I am also baffled about how half-assed the Poser marketing is at R'osity, but I think I beat this horse to death since they acquired Poser, and no one wants to hear another rant from me about the promo renders for Poser products vs. promo renders for DAZ. Of course, if there was a decent lighting system shipped with the product to use for quick setups and not one that was current 10 years ago, this would not be an issue.

@ssgbryan, we will know Monday, as you say. It would suck, despite the fact I don't really use DAZ.

In response to @ ssgbryan: “That being said - if Taffi (Daz's parent company) goes bellyup, other possibilities may emerge....They banked with Silicon Valley Bank.  If you are unaware, Peter Thiel apparently caused a bank run, and the FDIC had to take it over Friday.  Taffi apparently has no access to money right now, and depending on how this is handled on Mon, there is a chance they won't be able to make payroll.”

According to the information DAZ published, they used SVB to process credit card transactions. Ssgbryan may have more insight than I, but I haven’t seen anything to suggest that DAZ had uninsured deposits at SVB. Rather, DAZ is appealing to customers to use PayPal instead of credit cards to buy stuff. It’s ironic that Peter Thiel’s Venture Capitalist fund triggered the SVB run and evidently attempted to shift online purchases to PayPal—the platform he developed. I’m not suggesting the two are related—rather it merely shows how wealthy venture capitalist firms exploit small business concerns. No surprise there.

As for PayPal, years ago when it first emerged, I subscribed to a UK based monthly anthropology newsletter that only took PayPal payment: one USD a month. At some point, the newsletter dropped off the grid. Yet, PayPal continued to charge me for a no longer existent subscription. Its (so-called) customer service was entirely computer-based. There was no way to talk to a real person. Eventually I merely cancelled my PayPal subscription to stop the monthly charges—and PayPal still owes me USD 8.02 plus interest.

Your PayPal experience may differ but being my company’s senior compliance manager with a focus on ethical conduct and personal and corporate integrity, I’ll never use PayPal again. Yet I find it interesting, albeit not surprising, that the guy who founded PayPal triggered the SVB run.

Over 95% of the deposits in SVB are not fully FDIC insured (aka they are all over $250k).  The way SVB runs their funding, you WILL do all of your banking with them.  This is actually a good thing - SVB specializes in tech start ups, if there is a finance issue with one of these, they can address it quickly in house.  Money can be moved around to smooth daily or weekly hiccups out. 

The thing is - SVB has the money, they just didn't have enough liquid assets.  They had so much they couldn't lend it all out, so they put the excess in the most secure financial instrument in the world - 10 and 30 year T-bills.  What they didn't do was react to the Fed telling everyone for the past year that interest rates are going up.  SVB should have adjusted their mix - they took a gamble and lost.  The shareholders might take a small cut, but it won't be much.  The money is there - just in 10 & 30 year T-bills.

That being said, no bank on the planet would survive a bank run that has 24% of it's total cash go out in a single day.  Nobody.

A few of the start up will go under - but the ones that do were going under anyway - it will be quick and painless, rather than long and drawn out.

As we speak - hedge funds are calling companies and trying to buy everything right now for between 60 to 80% of it's value.  They know just about everyone will get through this.

And $&#* PayPal.  Everybody has a PayPal story.

That's my personal point of view, but for me the world is changing, and profoundly. A latent awakening is coming and could be brutal for some. What has fallen on our heads since the summer of 2019 had been prepared for a while, and I notice that it has caused many people to become aware. But not all of them, indeed, obsessed as they are with preserving their assets.

They wanted globalization? so more than ever, the flapping of a butterfly's wings somewhere is sure to cause a tsunami elsewhere

𝒫𝒽𝓎𝓁

---

(っ◔◡◔)っ

👿 Win11 on i9-13900K@5GHz, 64GB, RoG Strix B760F Gamng, Asus Tuf Gaming RTX 4070 OC Edition, 1 TB SSD, 6+4+8TB HD
👿 Mac Mini M2, Sonoma 14.6.1, 16GB, 500GB SSD
👿 Nas 10TB
👿 Poser 13 and soon 14 ❤️

Y-Phil posted at 6:49 AM Sun, 5 March 2023 - #4457698

As MNE said: if your purpose is to simply create pictures, you've got the 3D programs, the A.I. programs, the 'shop-alike program etc...
And you will probably get lost because all the time you will be looking for an ever changing said-perfection, kind of running after... what?
Even though making art can be done in several ways, the "fastfood" way of making pictures using A.I. is tiring in the long way. I've used and sometimes I play with Stable Diffusion, but in ma case it's just because I'm lazy, ending in doing hundreds of pictures during a many hours session.

IMO: nothing constructive, very few things to learn (oh yes just the right words for both prompts)
Our brains are requiring more than this laziness or they shrink. They require to learn new things on a regular basis. The learning curve of the A.I. is not so steep, it is quickly covered, even tough new modules and tools are coming regularly.

Psychologically, I remain unsatisfied if not bored with A.I., even if sometimes the resulting picture is amazing
I repeat: IMO.

Now, even though you're not a modeler (and I'm not, indeed, at least as long as I don't retire), building a scene, looking tor the items that are missing in it, building the material, looking for the perfect lighting, posing the characters (am I going to keep them partially naked or will I use a dynamic, complex cloth) etc... is part of the process and for me the most important part of the fun.

These 3D program won't die: many users have gone beyond the simple drop'n'click milestone. The users that are staying back in it either have a whole other process in mind, such as virtual novels (adult or not) or comic books in the process, or they'd better leave the 3D world for A.I. programs.

My views are very similar.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

thoennes posted at 6:17 AM Sun, 12 March 2023 - #4458200

hornet3d posted at 5:54 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457658

vopehov506 posted at 4:34 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457651

So if Majority just wants " Render Cycles " Texturing  you might as well cut down poser to a Material room , would not be a big step away as already quiet some features gotten removed, Poser might even end up as a great  Substance Painter. I rather think that the major fun part in poser is the posing of assets, and these actually should be the main discussions rather then loads of confusing texture nodes

Keep the Texturing simple but make the Models great and Complex, with good articulations, as you can not make a crappy old Model better just by using render cycles. But there might not be any other choice then to make better textures for the old models as there are not many new ones. Actually the point where you should start making some changes.

Understanding what the majority want is very difficult to define.  You could draw a conclusion from many of the posts here but the problem with that is the majority of Poser users do not visit forums and those that do often only do so in lurk mode, something I suspect is not unique to Poser users.

I would think sales is a good indicator of what the majority wants, no? :)

That would certainly a better way trouble is you have to create the software to see if it sells so there is still some guessing to be done.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Graybeard posted at 10:36 AM Mon, 6 March 2023 - #4457801

hornet3d posted at 5:52 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457656

primorge posted at 4:36 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457652

vopehov506 posted at 4:17 PM Sat, 4 March 2023 - #4457649

I might be wrong and there are just almost no 3D model creators left for poser that could talk about this matter, so what remains is only to talk about texturing the remains.

👍

Well there is Hivewire3D for a start that has Dawn 2 in the wings and talk of a Dragon, not to mention all the creations that are available here.  Ken 1171_Designs has concentrated on some superb scripts for Poser 12 recently but his store includes outfits and body types for Dawn,  Coflek_gnorg is prolific when it comes to 3D content and most of the more recent creations have both Firefly and Superfly materials included.   ShaaraMuse3D has some wonderful modular 3D kits and also brings a good selection of HDRIs.  Ali and Afrodite-Ohki provides a vast range of hairstyles that can me used with a range of figures.  I could go on but these are the vendors who creations I use on a regular basis.

Let us not forget @erogenesis Project Evolution. That is a wonderful model with heaps of potential and I enjoy using it a lot.

Also LF and LH are not bad models at all, they need a bit more work, but there is potential, not least in the work done by @Afrodite-Ohki

Plus let's not forget the mystery rumour of a new character with P13...

My view is that we are spoilt for choice when the it comes decent figures.  I tend to use Poser for story telling so the main heroine needs to be consistent so I have settled on Dawn SE.  Not sure what will happen when Dawn 2 is available.

 

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

You continue to use Dawn SE.  A new base mesh doesn't mean you have to replace what you are currently using.  In my stuff I use every figure I have ever collected.  The grey golums take a little more work, but they all can be brought in.

Which is what makes Poser so wonderful.

You can easily upgrade any of your legacy figures as much or as little as you are comfortable with.

And one more thing . . . . It would SURE be nice to have an updated cloth room -- one that can simulate in real time. We've been stuck with the P5 version since it came out, and it's never been improved. The Hair Room, for me, is totally useless, as is the Setup Room.

anupaum posted at 11:29 PM Tue, 14 March 2023 - #4458474

And one more thing . . . . It would SURE be nice to have an updated cloth room -- one that can simulate in real time. We've been stuck with the P5 version since it came out, and it's never been improved. The Hair Room, for me, is totally useless, as is the Setup Room.

Not even Marvelous Designer - a very pricey program that ONLY does clothing - can simulate anything in real time. You get real time in simpler outfits only.

You people are wishful thinking on that request, sorry.

Though going aside from the request of real-time, I've been begging for better clothing simulation for Poser for YEARS.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

As far as I understand (these were discussed ad nauseam before), since both the hair and the cloth room used licensed technology from other companies, those were not/ couldn't be updated. They'd need to be yanked out and completely rewritten. And then people would complain about things being broken from their old runtimes.

The first step was the base code rewrite for poser 13. Then they can start faffing with the rest of it. I just wish there was more ifnormati0on and what will be new/ different about P13. Some teaser renders (saw the ones the Hivewire team constantly posted about the new Dawn since they announced it what, m ore than a year ago?) Hells, any marketing would be nice besides a newsletter that only those who subscribe get and only in the vaguest possible terms. It's mid-March.

Well, if they're really re-writing Poser from the ground up, maybe we'll finally get improvements in the cloth and hair rooms. Eventually.

The easiest way to make improvements to the cloth room is to address the UI.

I have been using it forever, but it is still quite cryptic.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:14 AM Wed, 15 March 2023 - #4458487

Not even Marvelous Designer - a very pricey program that ONLY does clothing - can simulate anything in real time. You get real time in simpler outfits only.

You people are wishful thinking on that request, sorry.

Okay, I'll grant that I worded that statement badly. I'd like to see cloth simulation speeds similar to programs like Marvelous Designer.

Is that better?

Though going aside from the request of real-time, I've been begging for better clothing simulation for Poser for YEARS.

IMO:

* the cloth room and the hair room should stay as is, to keep old stuff functioning. 
* the best they can do is indeed to rewrite from the ground up, but in a new tab, shifting these old ones to the right...

𝒫𝒽𝓎𝓁

---

(っ◔◡◔)っ

👿 Win11 on i9-13900K@5GHz, 64GB, RoG Strix B760F Gamng, Asus Tuf Gaming RTX 4070 OC Edition, 1 TB SSD, 6+4+8TB HD
👿 Mac Mini M2, Sonoma 14.6.1, 16GB, 500GB SSD
👿 Nas 10TB
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anupaum posted at 12:27 PM Wed, 15 March 2023 - #4458521

Okay, I'll grant that I worded that statement badly. I'd like to see cloth simulation speeds similar to programs like Marvelous Designer.

Is that better?

Better, but still wishful thinking. You gotta keep in mind that Marvelous Designer's ENTIRE purpose is clothing, it does ONLY that, and is so good at that that you gotta pay per YEAR almost twice what you pay for a permanent license of Poser.

I feel that, if we expect a piece of  software to add to it what specialty programs do on their single specialty, we'll always be let down.

To Y-Phil's proposal: imagine the confusion. I think it would be a mess. What I'd propose would be, (best case scenario) revamp the entire cloth system and give us a script to have a best attempt to convert old cloth room values to it, or (easier case scenario) give us a Cloth Room quick tab with a wizard to set the simulation up, leaving all the complexity and numbers to content creators.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 7:23 AM Thu, 16 March 2023 - #4458658

Better, but still wishful thinking. You gotta keep in mind that Marvelous Designer's ENTIRE purpose is clothing, it does ONLY that, and is so good at that that you gotta pay per YEAR almost twice what you pay for a permanent license of Poser.

I feel that, if we expect a piece of  software to add to it what specialty programs do on their single specialty, we'll always be let down.

To Y-Phil's proposal: imagine the confusion. I think it would be a mess. What I'd propose would be, (best case scenario) revamp the entire cloth system and give us a script to have a best attempt to convert old cloth room values to it, or (easier case scenario) give us a Cloth Room quick tab with a wizard to set the simulation up, leaving all the complexity and numbers to content creators.

It is also true that it is important to evolve what we have.

I think it would be interesting if Bullet Physics could be optimized for clothing simulation.

Bullet Physics is a bit cumbersome to adjust the weights, but I think it has the potential to be more than a clothing simulation.

If we can build a UI and program specifically for clothing, I think it would be a very good real-time clothing simulation.

My Bullet Physics test　
Sorry for this Japanese blog.
http://mneposer.blog.2nt.com/blog-entry-332.html

Translated with DeepL

MNE posted at 11:02 AM Thu, 16 March 2023 - #4458697

I think it would be interesting if Bullet Physics could be optimized for clothing simulation.

Bullet Physics is a bit cumbersome to adjust the weights, but I think it has the potential to be more than a clothing simulation.

If we can build a UI and program specifically for clothing, I think it would be a very good real-time clothing simulation.

Personally, I find bullet physics clunky. It bogs my computer to the point where it will just run endlessly, but not do anything. I'd thought it would be a great tool in my Poser arsenal, but I've been disappointed.

Now that VWD isn't working anymore, animating hair will HAVE to be done in bullet physics. Let's see if P13 has some improvements in store.

anupaum posted at 5:43 PM Thu, 16 March 2023 - #4458758

MNE posted at 11:02 AM Thu, 16 March 2023 - #4458697

I think it would be interesting if Bullet Physics could be optimized for clothing simulation.

Bullet Physics is a bit cumbersome to adjust the weights, but I think it has the potential to be more than a clothing simulation.

If we can build a UI and program specifically for clothing, I think it would be a very good real-time clothing simulation.

Personally, I find bullet physics clunky. It bogs my computer to the point where it will just run endlessly, but not do anything. I'd thought it would be a great tool in my Poser arsenal, but I've been disappointed.

Now that VWD isn't working anymore, animating hair will HAVE to be done in bullet physics. Let's see if P13 has some improvements in store.

I too find it difficult to use.

That is why it needs to evolve.

Bullet Physics does not have to be a dedicated piece of clothing.

It can be used as a real-time cloth simulation in many ways, such as just the skirt part of a conform cloth, or just the scarf or tie part of a conform cloth.

Currently, Bullet Physics is designed for animation and is designed to bounce off soft objects.

If Bullet Physics evolves and can be configured specifically for cloth, it could be used as a real-time cloth simulation that approaches Marvelous Designer.

I suspect you are likely more clever than I am . . . .

I have used the cloth room for simulating parts of conforming cloth props. It's really slow, and doesn't always result in ideal simulations, but it DOES work. I'd post an image here, but the Modesty Police annoy me . . . .

:)