msansing opened this issue on Sep 07, 2023 · 110 posts
msansing posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 9:20 AM Site Admin
Renderosity, a leading digital content community, is announcing an update to its company policy aimed at improving the well-being of our artists. Our company is joining other industry leaders who care about and are interested in protecting copyrighted artwork. Effective immediately, we are instituting a comprehensive ban on the use of images created with artificial intelligence (AI). The rapid development of AI technology is beneficial in some areas, but AI created content can be deceptive. As we take this step, we believe we are helping encourage the responsible use of this technology.
Since 1998, Renderosity has been an online community for
graphic artists that maintains integrity and encourages growth. As technology
changes, we will remain committed to ethical practices as well as our family of
artists.
gillbrooks posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 11:38 AM
Did you forget something? This is AI too
Welcome to Deep Dream Generator
The ultimate AI image generator.
Gill
DarkAngel612 posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 11:47 AM
Gill, it would seem that this program using AI is not just thinking of getting members but considering the fact that art is art and that AI can be created legally and sold as such too. Thanks for the name so many can try it out.
Byrdie posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 11:58 AM
Hoo-boy! We gonna ban Photoshop too? Because yes, it has AI. And if you fix or postwork using that, especially generative fill, guess what? You just used the forbidden, "evil" tech.
And where does mixed media stand? I have images in my gallery that are Daz/Poser with some AI elements and also AI/Photoshop/actual physical camera used in the creation. Are these still allowed or now banned as well?
TwiztidKidd posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 12:08 PM
Good riddance. 💗💖💞💕❤️ Sending love and peaceful energy to everyone reading these words ❤️💕💞💖💗
CHMedia posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 1:13 PM
Thank you for letting me know. The section has been locked. I apologize for any confusion or frustration.Did you forget something? This is AI too
Welcome to Deep Dream Generator
The ultimate AI image generator.
CHMedia posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 1:16 PM
Thank you for reaching out. We are not banning Photoshop. Please refrain from posting AI images on Renderosity moving forward. I apologize for any frustration or confusion.Hoo-boy! We gonna ban Photoshop too? Because yes, it has AI. And if you fix or postwork using that, especially generative fill, guess what? You just used the forbidden, "evil" tech.
And where does mixed media stand? I have images in my gallery that are Daz/Poser with some AI elements and also AI/Photoshop/actual physical camera used in the creation. Are these still allowed or now banned as well?
maneki_neko posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 1:20 PM
TwiztidKidd posted at 12:08 PM Thu, 7 September 2023 - #4474156
i wish i could also say good riddance to all totally talentless horrors i've seen made in 3d, pointless photos, and other often repetitive eyesores that burned my retina every time i opened the galleries, because "art" doesn't need to be beautiful or skilled - as long as it's made by humans, right?Good riddance. 💗💖💞💕❤️ Sending love and peaceful energy to everyone reading these words ❤️💕💞💖💗
so i'll do like everyone else and upload NO AI images made by myself on a fully natural 3d program or whatever - that i can't even bear to look at myself, because they suck. they will not be AI, but they won't be much worse as what i've already seen. yay, 8 useless ugly images a day, what a pleasure! but who cares, as long as it's not the big bad AI menace that robs "real artists" of their income...
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
RodS posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 1:27 PM
Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!! Thank you!!!!!
Folks, there is a humongous difference between using AI technology as PART of a toolset to create an image, and just using the AI to create a complete image (and calling it 'your' artwork). What that means is that YOU as an artist are controlling what comes out as the final image rather than the AI. Using a combination of Poser / DAZ, Photoshop / Gimp / Painter / Whatever as your creative toolset is not, I repeat, NOT the same as typing in a bunch of prompt words / phrases, then letting the AI do its thing. YOU are the creator of the image, not the AI. Using generative fill in Photoshop as a tool is not the same as generating an entirely new image using AI only.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage
TwiztidKidd posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 1:47 PM
You could lock this thread. There isn't anything to debate here. Protect our writers also, ChatGPT is AI.
Thank you, Renderosity! Hope you are able to fully recover.
Mjrk posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 1:52 PM
Too sad, those were often the most interesting pictures.
maneki_neko posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 1:57 PM
RodS posted at 1:27 PM Thu, 7 September 2023 - #4474165
yeah? so have a look at the last, fresh 8 images in my gallery. they've been hand made by me, a human, and daz studio on a natural computer you can find growing in the nature, with the power of my purely human mind. ok, they are random useless renders i found growing mold on the bottom of my DS render folder. but many other renders here on this site look like this (and they're not fails, they're actually considered as finished and ready to be admired!) - or worse. i hate every single one of them, and if it wasn't for the rewards, i wouldn't be caught dead confessing that they're mine.Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!! Thank you!!!!!
Folks, there is a humongous difference between using AI technology as PART of a toolset to create an image, and just using the AI to create a complete image (and calling it 'your' artwork). What that means is that YOU as an artist are controlling what comes out as the final image rather than the AI. Using a combination of Poser / DAZ, Photoshop / Gimp / Painter / Whatever as your creative toolset is not, I repeat, NOT the same as typing in a bunch of prompt words / phrases, then letting the AI do its thing. YOU are the creator of the image, not the AI. Using generative fill in Photoshop as a tool is not the same as generating an entirely new image using AI only.
and then look at the beautiful other images i made the weeks/months before with AI, enjoying every moment of their creation.
thank you all anti AI people, you just saved the world from beauty. but at least, the human lack of talent is rewarded. long live the human race. it won't last long anyway.
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
maneki_neko posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 1:57 PM
word! +999'999Too sad, those were often the most interesting pictures.
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
maneki_neko posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 2:02 PM
TwiztidKidd posted at 1:47 PM Thu, 7 September 2023 - #4474168
yeah sure, now that you could say what you wanted to say, and got the results you wanted to get - close it so nobody can say how disappointed they are. because they just don't share your opinion, it should not be heard, right?You could lock this thread. There isn't anything to debate here. Protect our writers also, ChatGPT is AI.
Thank you, Renderosity! Hope you are able to fully recover.
hey there is another kind of atrocity that should be banned on rendo, because it's the bane of the internet, and it's anything but beautiful or talented: SELFIES. and anything that looks like one.
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
maneki_neko posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 2:26 PM
someone just warned me that i could get banned.. for what? for saying my honest opinion and expressing my bitter disappointment? or for uploading my own made art like everyone else? please tell me that it can't be. is a ban for that even possible? what have i done wrong? are we still in a free platform? i have not used any profanities, nor threats/violence, nor mentioned nudity (not very on topic lol).
so before you ban me, warn me, and i will delete every comment, and be sad in my little corner all silently by myself - like all minorities...
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
rhol_figament posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 2:30 PM
So much for freedom of expression. An art site that bans certain types of art, ya that makes a lot of sense. More than likely it's all about the money, can't sell content if no one is using it eh. It will be interesting to see how much longer Poser, Daz and the like keep going, I give them five to ten years at max. Stuff changes, people not so much.
Giana posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 2:34 PM
yanno, this really should also be announced under the "News" area of the site as some folks mayn't know to come to a forum to find this information.
hmatienzo posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 2:45 PM
This is nuts! What's next, evil Photoshop with its Neural filters? Even webbrowsers integrate AI. And to those self-appointed "purists" out there... You don't have one picture that is all yours. You utilize products -made-by-others!! But it's good to see that handful of whining blackmailers here finally got their way. But guess what... You likely won't get more clicks now than you did when AI was a!lowed. But hey, as long as we can look at scores of vapid nudes....
L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.
CHMedia posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 2:53 PM
Thank you to everyone who has let us know how you feel. I just wanted to say we see and hear you. Please sitemail me if you have any concerns or need any assistance. I am always happy to help.
maneki_neko posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 2:56 PM
hmatienzo posted at 2:45 PM Thu, 7 September 2023 - #4474176
aaah but vapid nudes made by a human person, not a robot! /sarcasm endThis is nuts! What's next, evil Photoshop with its Neural filters? Even webbrowsers integrate AI. And to those self-appointed "purists" out there... You don't have one picture that is all yours. You utilize products -made-by-others!! But it's good to see that handful of whining blackmailers here finally got their way. But guess what... You likely won't get more clicks now than you did when AI was a!lowed. But hey, as long as we can look at scores of vapid nudes....
even if they all look the same, like the same chick in 8 positions, render time maybe faster than AI, and "scene" creation time not much longer. creation skills .. yeah well. theme... not exactly rare and unexpected but pr0n always pays off. and as to the amount of products involved, 1 female model used ad eternam and no clothing nor props, not gonna boost the business much either.
if you want to have real quality in those galleries, there would be so many other things to ban apart from or even instead of AI, word!
but we live in a cancel culture now, and AI is probably the new tobacco - it's just not trending to be seen using it.
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
Kenmac posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 2:58 PM
This is a sad thing for me to see. It was A.I. generated images that got me back into posting at Renderosity after literally years. I really enjoyed making those images and sharing them with others in the A.I. forum. I've seen some really amazing images there and it was very inspiring to me and the other people who posted there. I truly hope this decision will be reversed.
Byrdie posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 3:11 PM
Agreed. If this were illegal art -- as ruled by a court of law, not public opinion -- then banning it would make sense. Indeed, it would be the only option. But it is not illegal, unless used to make nasty stuff like child smut, which is already against the law no matter how it's produced. So what else are we to think but that money concerns and peer pressure have a huge role to play in this decision?
And no, I won't be spending more on 3d stuff now that these tools are no longer welcome here. Because frankly I've a small fortune's worth of Poser, Daz, Bryce, Vue and other products sitting around since 2004 or thereabouts and I really don't need to buy more. Have not got the time and certainly not the money to ride that merry-go-round again. :-(
hmatienzo posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 3:14 PM
I tell you why I am so upset.. I am disabled. At times, I can barely move my hands because of nerve inflamation. I can use a flat hand to move the mouse as long as I don't have to clutch it. I still spend a lot of time fine-tuning my AI because there is more to a picture than just pushing a button... As artists here can tell you. This is one of the very few things I can do when I am having a flare-up. And I love my work. Now you tell me I can't share my art anymore because a few individuals feel they get a c!ick less! Every time in history when something new came a!ong, there was howling. Painting with bold strokes or dots and dabs?? A scandal!!
Look, all I am trying to say is that AI is here to stay despite what a few naysayers think and want. Because where do you stop, ban everything not approved by the Poser-Only police here?
L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.
WendyLuvsCatz posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 3:19 PM
I never stopped doing 3D and have only posted 3D in my tiny gallery.
I did however enjoy the AI forum and frequently combine 3D and AI in my videos
Because I am not an artist, I am a producer, a set dresser etc using assets 3D and 2D.
Renderosity for me is an asset store I buy content from, I don't give a crap what people post in the gallery.
Admit I find being rewarded for it and not for buying content like I do odd though ...
Giana posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 3:30 PM
why not just do what folks have said many times over - create a separate gallery for AI?
and have it truly separated...
for example, one logs into rendo, clicks a link to go to the AI only specific gallery. you could program it so one does not receive points, if you feel paying to post isn't in the site's best interest. however, it could still earn Rendo its money through having the traffic and the ads that exist here that give Rendo some benefit...
just a thought, an idea for some kind of compromise. prolly not the way you'll end up going, but still, a thought...
Byrdie posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 3:31 PM
This. Yes. What hmatienzo said. Now that I am older and even more disabled I find that traditional, even 3d, art is much harder than it used to be. Which is why I hardly bothered until AI tools came along and suddenly it was much easier to translate the ideas in my brain to images on my screen. Not "instant" or "effortless" like some people claim, though. Much thought, work and patience are still required, at least for me. Because rarely am I satisfied with first drafts, no matter how good any tool or technology gets.
P.S. The AI gallery was already separated. Not sure how much more separated it could possibly have gotten, except of course for being gone. Which apparently it now is. :-(
RodS posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 3:33 PM
Yes, I saw those - and figured out your message pretty quickly. I'm sorry you feel that way. There's not much I can say that will allow you to see the issue from a different viewpoint, so I'll not say anymore. I wish you well.RodS posted at 1:27 PM Thu, 7 September 2023 - #4474165
"yeah? so have a look at the last, fresh 8 images in my gallery. they've been hand made by me, a human, and daz studio on a natural computer you can find growing in the nature, with the power of my purely human mind. ok, they are random useless renders i found growing mold on the bottom of my DS render folder. but many other renders here on this site look like this (and they're not fails, they're actually considered as finished and ready to be admired!) - or worse. i hate every single one of them, and if it wasn't for the rewards, i wouldn't be caught dead confessing that they're mine.and then look at the beautiful other images i made the weeks/months before with AI, enjoying every moment of their creation.
thank you all anti AI people, you just saved the world from beauty. but at least, the human lack of talent is rewarded. long live the human race. it won't last long anyway."
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage
CHMedia posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 3:50 PM
Thank you for your feedback. While we had a seperate section for AI, everything still funneled into the New Art section. As you probably already know, that is the way our site operates. Thank you again for your suggestion. We do value your feedback.why not just do what folks have said many times over - create a separate gallery for AI?
and have it truly separated...
for example, one logs into rendo, clicks a link to go to the AI only specific gallery. you could program it so one does not receive points, if you feel paying to post isn't in the site's best interest. however, it could still earn Rendo its money through having the traffic and the ads that exist here that give Rendo some benefit...
just a thought, an idea for some kind of compromise. prolly not the way you'll end up going, but still, a thought...
ladylake posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 3:57 PM
I wonder if the DAZ/Poser folks realize how many people who post AI images were commenting on their images? I commented on a lot of them. Now that many of us will be looking for a new home there will be less comments on all images be it Bryce, Vue, a photo or DAZ/Poser.
Thank goodness there were a lot of DAZ/Poser users who weren't so narrow minded as to think that only what they do is any good....can be considered art. Lots of them commented on my images and it was appreciated.
I saw one person who was talking about AI images say that photos were the same...all you had to do was "click". Well, as with anything that is good, it takes a lot more than that.
I am sorry that I won't be allowed to post anymore. I have had an amazing time doing so. I guess I should not be surprised at what has happened....it is happening all over. The small group that shouts/protests the loudest and the most gets their way.
To all my friends that I have made, RR has been like a home to me for a very long time, so I am not closing my account because I want to be able to come back and say "hi" to you once in a while. But I will be looking for another place to be, where what I contribute will be okay.
RodS posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 3:59 PM
@ maneki_neko,
I do have to agree with you as far as the daily 8 images of the same chick just in slightly different poses, and the daily limit of promos EVERY day by a couple folks that shall remain nameless..
Now, I'm outta here...
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage
gillbrooks posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 4:00 PM
Actually, if you want to get really pedantic, any art created on a computer is AI because essentially, a computer is artificial intelligence. Poser, Daz, Vue, they're all computer generated images, not actual "ART" that a person has created themselves, and in a lot of cases, it really is just a point and click "make art" button, especially with Poser and Daz presets.
Not much difference between them in reality.
When I moved over to digital after years of painting on real canvas with real brushes, it was a great difference.
Gill
Giana posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 4:06 PM
yes, Caroline, i'm aware. but Rendo employs programmers who should have skillsets to program things slightly differently for an AI section...
as i said, just a thought...
TwiztidKidd posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 4:20 PM
Giana, read the original post one more time. You cannot host AI images, that's not how you join the other supporting websites. Some ISPs in the U.S. started blocking AI websites and AI apps.
I'm going to do my best to ask one vendor and two artists to return to Renderosity. Now, that's something everyone can do.
Giana posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 4:26 PM
i did read it, thanks, Twiz :)
bakapo posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 4:35 PM
This makes me sad. I always thought art was art, but aparently art is only what some people think is art.
Thank you to the AI artists who shared their beautiful visions here. Maybe we can meet elsewhere...
maneki_neko posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 4:42 PM
nightCafé ^^This makes me sad. I always thought art was art, but aparently art is only what some people think is art.
Thank you to the AI artists who shared their beautiful visions here. Maybe we can meet elsewhere...
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
Byrdie posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 4:49 PM
Discord maybe? Lots of art groups & artists already on there. All types, AI & otherwise.
Byrdie posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 4:53 PM
Btw, do we need to purge our galleries of anything we did earlier that's no longer welcome? Because back before there was an AI section, stuff did end up under 2D, Mixed media and any other categories that seemed to fit.
Giana posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 5:21 PM
Caroline,
i sent you a sitemail with a question about this issue. mentioning this here as i'm sure you are fielding quite a bit atm, and things might be easy to miss, so to speak, as you direct your attention to this thread :))
WendyLuvsCatz posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 5:31 PM
reads forum incognito and scratches almost empty brain case
how does someone who renders nudes in Poser support a DAZ studio clothing accessories vendor just because they are both antiAi?
or do people just buy products they cannot use because they share values?
I really don't understand the economics of the marketplace do I?
I thought they wanted my money by selling me 3D assets for some dumb reason, I have completely misunderstood this site all along
its a fandom not a store
does site traffic really generate more income than sales?
bit off topic but I really don't get the reasoning behind alienating half your actual customers because of ideals
UteBigSmile posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 5:33 PM
I wonder if the DAZ/Poser folks realize how many people who post AI images were commenting on their images? I commented on a lot of them. Now that many of us will be looking for a new home there will be less comments on all images be it Bryce, Vue, a photo or DAZ/Poser.
Thank goodness there were a lot of DAZ/Poser users who weren't so narrow minded as to think that only what they do is any good....can be considered art. Lots of them commented on my images and it was appreciated.
I saw one person who was talking about AI images say that photos were the same...all you had to do was "click". Well, as with anything that is good, it takes a lot more than that.
I am sorry that I won't be allowed to post anymore. I have had an amazing time doing so. I guess I should not be surprised at what has happened....it is happening all over. The small group that shouts/protests the loudest and the most gets their way.
To all my friends that I have made, RR has been like a home to me for a very long time, so I am not closing my account because I want to be able to come back and say "hi" to you once in a while. But I will be looking for another place to be, where what I contribute will be okay.
"Lyla I completely agree with you in every point of view!" - Now I can throw at least 510 AI Images in the garbage can, what a shame!
Why can't I change my avatar anymore?
Message: The thumb must be an image.????????
UteBigSmile posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 5:40 PM
I agree: Thank you my dear Barb!This makes me sad. I always thought art was art, but aparently art is only what some people think is art.
Thank you to the AI artists who shared their beautiful visions here. Maybe we can meet elsewhere...
Why can't I change my avatar anymore?
Message: The thumb must be an image.????????
WendyLuvsCatz posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 5:57 PM
because I cannot edit my previous post just adding as a 3D renderer who frequently uses AI backgrounds albeit on YouTube,
why are images that don't use any Renderosity products still OK as long as AI not used?
Ken1171_Designs posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 6:00 PM Online Now!
One thing to consider is that AI is already integrated into people's lives, and it's becoming more so every day. A few have hopes that they will wake up one day, and AI will just magically go away, but that's not how the world works. As proven in past history, those who fight technology will be left behind. Disney is the prime example of it - they have strongly opposed 3D in their studios for over a decade, until they were left behind and ran after their losses. Their claim was the same - "3D is not art". Studio Ghibli from Japan went the same way, banning 3D from their studios until they realized that was a grave mistake. Now we all know a studio cannot compete in the market without 3D. Pixar Studios had already established that way before, but some decided to swim against the tide. The end is always the same.
Back in the early 2000s, I have suffered great prejudice and discrimination because I was a 3D artist, and some in the community insisted that "3D was not art", and wanted 3D artists banned. I have suffered all kinds of flaming for YEARS because of it, and then when it finally subsided, new 3D artists who join the site will never know the hell I went through because now everybody is welcome. A few professional photographers from dA told me it was the same with them before 3D, with claims that it was "not art". As usual, photographers went through flaming and humiliation for YEARS until everybody now understands and accepts it. That's the burden we carry.
And now, hold and behold, "AI is not art". Here we go again.
Characters, Body Sculpts, Morph Corrections, Outfits, Python Scripts, Universal Heads, and Videogames!
maneki_neko posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 6:04 PM
wait.. why are some people who have created Ai images BEFORE this new decision talk about throwing away / deleting their images, be it in the AI section or when there wasn't one, in other galleries?
i had understood this new policy as in "RENDEROSITY DOESN'T ACCEPT ANY AI IMAGES FROM NOW ON" - and not as in "renderosity will be a totally AI-free zone and will delete or ask the userS to delete ALL AI IMAGES EVER UPLOADED"...
can someone please clarify this question - and hopefully reassure all of us who have full galleries with AI images made before today...
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
Byrdie posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 6:14 PM
If you're thinking this will stop spammers in the galleries, think again. There is a so-called Vue image under category Romance that is neither Vue nor romance but an ad with a link to an adult services page. "Best Call Girl In Delhi", I kid you not. Just reported it.
P.S. No, I haven't deleted anything in my gallery yet. Not sure if old stuff can stay or not so I figured I'd better ask to be on the safe side. Will comply with the rules, no more AI in anything else posted here by this little featherhead.
maneki_neko posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 6:52 PM
Byrdie posted at 6:14 PM Thu, 7 September 2023 - #4474208
we both, i saw + reported it too. some people know no shame.If you're thinking this will stop spammers in the galleries, think again. There is a so-called Vue image under category Romance that is neither Vue nor romance but an ad with a link to an adult services page. "Best Call Girl In Delhi", I kid you not. Just reported it.
P.S. No, I haven't deleted anything in my gallery yet. Not sure if old stuff can stay or not so I figured I'd better ask to be on the safe side. Will comply with the rules, no more AI in anything else posted here by this little featherhead.
well, the announcement mentioned "comprehensive", which means "all" but on the other hand didn't mention it's retroactive so it's a grey zone. however CHMedia wrote in this post here : "Please refrain from posting AI images on Renderosity moving forward" - which for me means older images uploaded before today are not included.
this really needs to be clarified, clearly written in all letters, and posted on various places in the site, before misinformed people start deleting all their good stuff that could stay!
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
RodS posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 7:02 PM
I saw that and reported it as well... Is there not some kind of filter for that sort of stuff, Mods? I've seen and reported many of those SPAMs over the last few months.If you're thinking this will stop spammers in the galleries, think again. There is a so-called Vue image under category Romance that is neither Vue nor romance but an ad with a link to an adult services page. "Best Call Girl In Delhi", I kid you not. Just reported it.
P.S. No, I haven't deleted anything in my gallery yet. Not sure if old stuff can stay or not so I figured I'd better ask to be on the safe side. Will comply with the rules, no more AI in anything else posted here by this little featherhead.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage
RedPhantom posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 9:08 PM Site Admin
At this point, we are not asking anyone to remove older images, only not posting new ones.
Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage
Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10
Byrdie posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 9:14 PM
Thanks for the clarification.
CHMedia posted Thu, 07 September 2023 at 9:19 PM
I don’t believe anyone needs to remove their past AI posts at this time. If I find out otherwise I will reach out. I sincerely apologize for any frustration or confusion. Anyone is welcome to sitemail me with concerns or questions. I am always happy to help and I have seen all of your posts.
If you need assistance with your avatar please sitemail me your new image. I can change it on your behalf. Sometimes images cache and cookies need to be cleared. You could also try changing the file name.
WendyLuvsCatz posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:59 AM
I do miss our little AI forum that those who were uninterested in could have just simply hid, I came here everyday, probably won't now, maybe now once a week to keep the Carrara forum alive ( am in DAZ one daily)
it's sad some are compelled to gatekeep others.
I mostly prompt AI art on free sites while my computer is busy rendering, especially if I was using iray in DAZ studio as that took all bloody day 🤣
I still will of course, nothing was gained by this move, I get inspired by the results to try reproducing them in 3D quite often and AI not being copyrighted meant I felt less guilty copying the style than I would someone's 3D render which if I am to believe the antiAI crowd is something you must never do, look at someone's art, be inspired and copy it!
They are all very original (as one can be using the same 3D figures and clothing)
hmatienzo posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 4:29 AM
Yeah, but you will always find bitter old men no matter where you go, trying to force their outdated views on the rest of the world. Time to pack up and vote with the wallet, methinks... after like 22 years.
L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.
parkdalegardener posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 5:48 AM
I suspect prolific output to be a big part of this. Freestuff is full of AI generated material, not just the galleries. Rendo rewarding for that could be part of the issue. They are trying to sell assets after all not give them away. Servers, storage, and bandwidth are not free.
I do believe that this is slightly ill-considered. I have no issue with AI. Just the way some of the folk use it. Low effort type and go may be fun for some, but it just becomes so much eyestrain after a bit. NVIATWAS anyone?
I've been a member here since Metacreations owned Poser, Kai made Powergoo; and Renderosity and Renderotica were the same site. I changed username some 15 years ago or so. I visit here every day. On rare occasions I post to the forms. I have never posted to the gallery here in all that time. Does that mean I'm not any good or afraid to show my work? Nope. I was a professional for 35 years until I retired. I do show work elsewhere as well as post images to galleries. Some of them even {gasp} have AI components.
Texture creation, background removal and replacement, lighting changes, extraneous detail inclusion or removal, not to mention masking for editing and so much more. Just ask Adobe or any of the others mentioned. "AI" is not just still image creation. AI is being used with Poser and DS as basic input for AI effects. Blender and Vue both have AI plugins. Photographs get the AI treatment. Are you going to forbid the use of AI "assistance" in those galleries? If so; how do you tell?
Invisible watermarking? It's there in the models themselves and no; stripping the metadata does not remove the watermark. It's embedded at pixel level so AI doesn't train AI. It can be removed but not easily as it is weight (model) level and not application level. It will appear even if a non-ai generated piece is manipulated thus you can actually make a Poser render, photograph, or any other image identify as AI even if it isn't. The point is that well done work wont appear as "AI" and until you figure out a reasonable method of detection. AI artwork is appearing in every gallery due to the tools we use. Time to hire termites on staff as the wooden shoes are falling everywhere.
gillbrooks posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:07 AM
There is one awful big irony here. This week's RR newsletter features an AI GENERATED IMAGE as it's cover.
Gill
Raindroptheelf posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:33 AM Online Now!
I am so glad this AI thing is over, at least here at Renderosity.
THANK YOU :)
parkdalegardener posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:40 AM
Yeah. I was just dropping in here to mention the cover image for "Sci-Fi Friday" after checking my email a few minutes ago. Daily theme posts from the now deleted AI threads comes to mind. You beat me to it.There is one awful big irony here. This week's RR newsletter features an AI GENERATED IMAGE as it's cover.
maneki_neko posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:51 AM
I suspect prolific output to be a big part of this. Freestuff is full of AI generated material, not just the galleries. Rendo rewarding for that could be part of the issue. They are trying to sell assets after all not give them away. Servers, storage, and bandwidth are not free.
I do believe that this is slightly ill-considered. I have no issue with AI. Just the way some of the folk use it. Low effort type and go may be fun for some, but it just becomes so much eyestrain after a bit. NVIATWAS anyone?
prolific output might be easier to achieve with AI, true - HOWEVER i have seen for example prolific and absolutely repetitive outputs of 2D in the form of self nudes vaguely adorned of some kind of filters in photoshop, like whole series of them during days. maybe a bit more work than "clicking on a button", as non AI creators believe all AI images are done (and it's by far not always the case), but clicking on a PS submenu on a filter isn't exactly much more than a click on a button. i have seen the best examples of repetitive 3D NVIATWAS where there wasn't even a temple to begin with, just a blank white background, in daily batches, and i'm not commenting on the exaggerated borderline obscene degrading female form. my eyes are really strained to see those batches of pseudo-porn.
and as freestuff goes, i have seen millions of repetitive backgrounds made with some app that automatizes textures, i don't know how much clicks are involved but yeah, the freestuff area is flooded with them, additionally to packs of random photos from the street or whatever. i have to scroll a good few times before i come across a freebie that's not yet another pack of some backgrounds/textures, and i'm not counting the AI made ones, just the "human" made ones.
whereby, human... as long as a photo machine or a computer machine is involved, i'd say it's not more human. anyone wanting to be a purist should publish hand painted/drawn images.
short: it doesn't take AI to create floods of stuff where the amount of work and creativity involved might be questionable as well as the "art" quality, it has been and is still done in large parts with "conventional" 2D and 3D apps. and all those images, freebies etc have been well rewarded too.
personally, i spent quite some time until i had the one or other AI output, with many fails and prompt testing - and the ones i submitted in my gallery here were hand picked from many, the best, the ones i loved most, many of them beautiful. i also tried to upload a nice varied batch daily, different themes, colors, styles.
i created a lot more with Daz studio before AI, but with an old crappy slow laggy crashy laptop with which i can't even use the latest features (dforce, hair etc), it impacted the quality of my scenes and renders a lot, and i give up in the middle of like 99% of my scenes because of the limitations of my hardware and my patience to deal with this BS laptop.
so AI was a balm for my soul, finally being able to create felines with HAIR, clothing that moves, and not waste hours waiting for every single little test. and also be surprised by what the AI created, it's fun to not have everything under control, it's a joint work. i swear like a sailor when i use daz, because my hardware makes me insane - and i laughed so often at what the AI had concocted...
i will NOT have my images, because they were made with AI, being labeled as worthless workless flooding garbage while other people publish just the same amount of stuff where not much effort nor soul was involved and the results are anything but pleasant or useful.
if we're judgy, then let's judge everything - or nothing.
the sources of the materials used to train AI were questionable, i admit it, some things were not done in a correct way - but then again, people have been copying others in a form or another for eons. every single learning process is based on mimicry, and all forms of art are not devoid of examples, or we would still be applying our muddy hands on cave walls and beat on drums and scream inarticulate sounds with it..
i admit there are issues with AI, but flooding with stuff where not much work was involved is NOT only an AI issue, it's a PEOPLE issue.
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
CHMedia posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:21 AM
Good morning,
Just a reminder that my door is always open. Please sitemail me if you would like to discuss this further. I have read all of your posts. Thank you in advance for reaching out.
Byrdie posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:50 AM
And who is going to police the remaining galleries? Because, knowing people, that which is forbidden will become even more attractive simply because it is forbidden. We who indulge in creative pursuits are an especially rebellious bunch -- just ask all the censors and book-banners out there. There will always be those who push the envelope, test the edges, interpret things their own way or even merrily ignore them altogether should they decide "the rules" do not make sense. Here's a prediction: AI art may be banned here on Rendo and elsewhere but it won't really go away, it'll just get much better at blending in.
Right into the closet, along with everything else "society" has decided or been persuaded that it simply doesn't like.
N.B.: This does NOT mean I personally won't keep to the rules/TOS around here. I fully intend to abide by them, as nonsensical and arbitrary as this latest one is, in my opinion. Nor do I nor will I encourage people to break them. Simply making an educated guess. YMMV.
gillbrooks posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 10:35 AM
People will just migrate to other places.And who is going to police the remaining galleries? Because, knowing people, that which is forbidden will become even more attractive simply because it is forbidden. We who indulge in creative pursuits are an especially rebellious bunch -- just ask all the censors and book-banners out there. There will always be those who push the envelope, test the edges, interpret things their own way or even merrily ignore them altogether should they decide "the rules" do not make sense. Here's a prediction: AI art may be banned here on Rendo and elsewhere but it won't really go away, it'll just get much better at blending in.
Right into the closet, along with everything else "society" has decided or been persuaded that it simply doesn't like.
N.B.: This does NOT mean I personally won't keep to the rules/TOS around here. I fully intend to abide by them, as nonsensical and arbitrary as this latest one is, in my opinion. Nor do I nor will I encourage people to break them. Simply making an educated guess. YMMV.
Gill
ladylake posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 10:38 AM
It's already happened in the gallery today....but to give benefit of doubt maybe they haven't heard yet but .....just saying. :-)
I too will abide by the rules. But since that is only kind of images I make anymore I will take my "worthless art" somewhere else where there is tolerance for differences.
Giana posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 11:22 AM
it's a rather simple formula, and it is most oft placed within the mathematics of money [easier to understand than all the rather mixed & complex feelings on this subject]...
Rendo offers its servers for free to all the hobbyists here - but still, those servers cost monies, as does all overhead, such as staff, programmers, developers, etc.
AI eats into monies in terms of people not buying as many assets perhaps has once they were. also, due to the flood of AI images, and people's own individual moral code, Rendo has lost some vendors and other hobbyists who were also buying assets.
the difference between say a flood of AI vs. a flood of nude 3D models is that the creators of said model have been properly compensated. many images that fed, or feed, into AI were scraped and culled from creators without their permission, and without fair compensation. who has NOT seen at least a few AI images with vestiges of the original artist's signature kinda distorted and messed up from the AI algorithm? those creators haven't said 'yea, use my stuff for free, but please mess up my signature, or make sure it has been obliterated entirely'. if a creator does sell say a piece of their own artwork, there are terms that are attached to that sale, most notably that copyright thing. even mass consumption stock photos come with fair-usage terms and/or a license, though they lack the artist's signature.
even buying 3D assets doesn't mean you actually own them. you have simply purchased a license to use them. they are protected under copyright.
AI art is not 'worthless' - it simply hasn't been paid for, or licensed for use...
bottom line: monies, but what should be ahead of even that is respect... yanno, the kind you would want others to exhibit for/towards your own work
please note my post is not directed towards any one person in the thread or on this site. i am merely trying to address some of the issues surrounding this topic...
ladylake posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 11:58 AM
Okay, I understand the mathematics of money.....so AI people don't buy assets. BUT neither do people who make fractals, or people who upload their photos/etc. Is banning those next, so only Poser/DAZ and a couple of others are left? I think not. So that puts a dent in the money theory. If flooding was such a big problem the upload limit could have been a lot less. Say two a day. But that wasn't done. I will always wonder why.
As to the art....I agree respect is what it is about. Respect for those who do not agree with you. Because you do know that there are a lot of people who do not agree, right?
Enough from me. I am weary of the argument. I will stop back in to say "hi" to some of you once in a while. Best of luck.
Giana posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 12:35 PM
i did not say AI people do not buy assets... i said fewer assets were being purchased
and i do hope you stop in to say to those folks you bonded with, esp. in that AI thread. bet they'd appreciate it :))
Byrdie posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 1:17 PM
My 3d asset purchases have been on the decrease long before I started using AI. Not buying as much now that I'm retired and it's a hobby not a job. Plus the bad economy and a fixed income (disability pension) means less money for non-essentials like a thousand variations of the same string bikini for Vicky Whatever-Her-Number-Is-These-Days. My computer is fairly new but struggles with fully loaded Genesis figures if there is more than one per scene and I am doubtful of its ability to handle the next version of Studio or Poser without major upgrades. Which again I cannot afford, especially since the thing ain't broke and in need of fixing. Have not jumped on the Genesis 9 bandwagon and only toe-dipped in the 8.1 pool, still using Michael/Vicky 7 & 8 -- and yes, even 4. Since I already have tons of stuff for those figures and the supply of new products for them has mostly dried up, I'm not inclined to shop the 3D section very much.
That said, I have found myself buying more brushes, overlays, Photoshop actions, Paintshop Pro tubes and the like. For the purpose of using them along with programs like Stable Diffusion or MidJourney to do mixed media pieces. So AI has actually increased my spending, just on 2d assets instead.
maneki_neko posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 1:28 PM
it's a rather simple formula, and it is most oft placed within the mathematics of money [easier to understand than all the rather mixed & complex feelings on this subject]...
Rendo offers its servers for free to all the hobbyists here - but still, those servers cost monies, as does all overhead, such as staff, programmers, developers, etc.
AI eats into monies in terms of people not buying as many assets perhaps has once they were. also, due to the flood of AI images, and people's own individual moral code, Rendo has lost some vendors and other hobbyists who were also buying assets.
the difference between say a flood of AI vs. a flood of nude 3D models is that the creators of said model have been properly compensated. many images that fed, or feed, into AI were scraped and culled from creators without their permission, and without fair compensation. who has NOT seen at least a few AI images with vestiges of the original artist's signature kinda distorted and messed up from the AI algorithm? those creators haven't said 'yea, use my stuff for free, but please mess up my signature, or make sure it has been obliterated entirely'. if a creator does sell say a piece of their own artwork, there are terms that are attached to that sale, most notably that copyright thing. even mass consumption stock photos come with fair-usage terms and/or a license, though they lack the artist's signature.
even buying 3D assets doesn't mean you actually own them. you have simply purchased a license to use them. they are protected under copyright.
AI art is not 'worthless' - it simply hasn't been paid for, or licensed for use...
bottom line: monies, but what should be ahead of even that is respect... yanno, the kind you would want others to exhibit for/towards your own work
please note my post is not directed towards any one person in the thread or on this site. i am merely trying to address some of the issues surrounding this topic...
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
Ken1171_Designs posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 1:32 PM Online Now!
The way I see this, AI has revolutionized the way people create art in more ways than people may realize. All major paint programs have adopted it, and even 3D programs have added AI generation to their tools arsenal. Some have already listed some of the applications in this thread, but there are many more. As time passes, I am sure even more creative applications will be explored.
On my side, I have spent a lot of time and effort to develop a workflow to integrate Poser with Stable Diffusion AI. I have created a plugin that allows 3D artists to pose the and frame the character in Poser, and export a preprocessed OpenPose-compatible pose reference that can be loaded into the ControlNet extension to customize and render it in Stable Diffusion. I have been showcasing this workflow in social media for over a month, and people who had never heard of Poser are now interested. I have provided links to the PoserSoftware page to those who had never heard of Poser before. They look at the results I have been presenting, and asked me what Poser is, and where to find it.
So, for those claiming AI cannot bring money to Poser, think again. With the explosion of popularity AI has brought into the community, this alone could bring plenty of new users to Poser. However, I have submitted the plugin to the Rendo QAV last month, and got not a word from Rendo ever since. I don't know what's happening, or why, but I wonder if Rendo's decision to ban AI was related to it, since it has happened in the same week my plugin was submitted to the store.
Whether or not those are related, this decision to ban AI may backfire on Rendo once my plugin gets released. Pushing customers away at a time when Poser cannot afford to lose even more customers will have consequences, and might also defeat my efforts to bring more attention to Poser, taking advantage of this explosion of AI popularity. After all the time and effort I have put into this project, I feel betrayed. Rendo has pulled the carpet from under my feet in the same week I am releasing my Poser plugin to bridge it with AI.
Characters, Body Sculpts, Morph Corrections, Outfits, Python Scripts, Universal Heads, and Videogames!
maneki_neko posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 1:34 PM
It's already happened in the gallery today....but to give benefit of doubt maybe they haven't heard yet but .....just saying. :-)
I too will abide by the rules. But since that is only kind of images I make anymore I will take my "worthless art" somewhere else where there is tolerance for differences.
i too will abide by the rules. from now on i will only upload daz studio made images. like a real artist. funny is, the majority of my assets were bought at daz... and some here. makes a lot of sense.
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
parkdalegardener posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 2:06 PM
Ken; I posted above about people using 3d software like Blender, Poser and Studio output as input for AI. Sounds like a useful tool you have there and a fine addition to my Poser 13. Let me know if it ever gets released.
A_Sunbeam posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 2:39 PM
All Rendo needed to do was to give AI its own AI exclusive gallery and not allow AI in the main gallery.
Byrdie posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:02 PM
Or they could have not allowed AI images in the gallery while still permitting them only in the AI forum. Which could be hidden/entirely avoided by those not interested. That would have solved the "flooding" issue.
Digitell posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:13 PM
Thank you Renderosity!
gillbrooks posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:17 PM
OK, I'm going to have my say here.
Firstly, the notion that AI "steals" peoples art/images/photographs is a myth. It uses images as REFERENCE. It does not copy/paste bits of artwork into an image to create a new image. As a Vue user, I nearly always used photographs or paintings for reference, yet was never berated or banned for that. Most "real" artists use references, be it photo, image or physical.
Images are made up of noise. A demonstration of this is in the image below containing 4 shots of the progress from 0% to 100%. As you can clearly see, there is not copy/pasting going on. The images are being built up using noise.
The second image shows one of those 4 that has been taken into Photoshop. A squirrel has been hand painted in, and some branches and leaves added. Colour and lighting correction has also been done. This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button. This, although initially generated with AI has also been worked on by a human doing actual digial painting.
This brings me to my second gripe. Most of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves. I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas. THAT is a real artist. The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually. I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.
I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.
Gill
Raindroptheelf posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:55 PM Online Now!
You can show me 30 AI Images and I would not be able to distinguish between them or tell you the Artist who made any of them.
They all look the same.
There is no individuality in any of them.
They all have that Dreamy oversaturated look and glow to them.
Saying that 3D Artists with DS and Poser are not Artists because they have not painted before is just not right.
The only thing I ever painted in my life were walls and yet, I pride myself on doing nice enough 3D Images that do not just appear out of thin air.
I have not yet found the Instant Art button in any of the 3D programs that I have ever used.
@Gill
You say *This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button*
But I am sure you know that this is NOT how it works.
Lunaseas posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 4:12 PM
"Show me 20 or show me 100 AI Images and I could NEVER say who the person was that made the Image, they ALL look the same."
"So please anyone who says users of 3D programs are not Artists, they do a hell of a lot more than waiting for an image to be ready, they have to compose the image, light, props, placing and more."
Just my two cents but this is exactly the same thing that I heard from people about Poser back in 2001 when I joined Renderosity. Nevertheless, I will follow the rules and take my AI augmented/generated work elsewhere and share my Daz stuff here if I can get my computer to be able to crunch out a render before crashing.
gillbrooks posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 4:35 PM
@Gill
You say *This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button*
But I am sure you know that this is NOT how it works.
If that's not how it works, how come there's the need to purchase pre-made backgrounds, click and load pre-made sets, pre-made poses....the list goes on. At least when I used Poser a very long time ago, I made my own content to add to the blandness of it all.
Gill
maneki_neko posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 5:21 PM
this needed to be said. bravo.OK, I'm going to have my say here.
Firstly, the notion that AI "steals" peoples art/images/photographs is a myth. It uses images as REFERENCE. It does not copy/paste bits of artwork into an image to create a new image. As a Vue user, I nearly always used photographs or paintings for reference, yet was never berated or banned for that. Most "real" artists use references, be it photo, image or physical.
Images are made up of noise. A demonstration of this is in the image below containing 4 shots of the progress from 0% to 100%. As you can clearly see, there is not copy/pasting going on. The images are being built up using noise.
The second image shows one of those 4 that has been taken into Photoshop. A squirrel has been hand painted in, and some branches and leaves added. Colour and lighting correction has also been done. This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button. This, although initially generated with AI has also been worked on by a human doing actual digial painting.
This brings me to my second gripe. Most of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves. I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas. THAT is a real artist. The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually. I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.
I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.
IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...
UteBigSmile posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 5:27 PM
Thank you Gill, you speak from my heart!OK, I'm going to have my say here.
Firstly, the notion that AI "steals" peoples art/images/photographs is a myth. It uses images as REFERENCE. It does not copy/paste bits of artwork into an image to create a new image. As a Vue user, I nearly always used photographs or paintings for reference, yet was never berated or banned for that. Most "real" artists use references, be it photo, image or physical.
Images are made up of noise. A demonstration of this is in the image below containing 4 shots of the progress from 0% to 100%. As you can clearly see, there is not copy/pasting going on. The images are being built up using noise.
The second image shows one of those 4 that has been taken into Photoshop. A squirrel has been hand painted in, and some branches and leaves added. Colour and lighting correction has also been done. This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button. This, although initially generated with AI has also been worked on by a human doing actual digial painting.
This brings me to my second gripe. Most of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves. I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas. THAT is a real artist. The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually. I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.
I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.
Why can't I change my avatar anymore?
Message: The thumb must be an image.????????
UteBigSmile posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 5:36 PM
Thank you Gill, you speak from my heart!
Why can't I change my avatar anymore?
Message: The thumb must be an image.????????
Ken1171_Designs posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:05 PM Online Now!
What Gillbrooks said is correct. The claims that AI "steals" images from other is indeed a myth spread by misinformed people. AI learns by repeating the same task over and over again, until it gets good with it. Sounds familiar? That's how humans learn. So, if humans practice over materials created by others, and that is not stealing, then why would the same process have a different meaning when done by AI? This is the part some people have trouble understanding, or perhaps refuse to understand for personal reasons. For the record, I have 2 degrees in Computer Science, and I have worked in academic AI research, so these are the facts, and remain facts no matter how people may feel about it.
@parkdalegardener: Thanks for the support and feedback. Not only this QAV is taking longer than usual, but I didn't get any notification from QAV that the process has started, which is definitely not normal after this long. If Rendo has something to say about it, they didn't tell me. But this AI ban happening at the same time of my submission leaves me wondering. I hope it's just a huge coincidence, but this sudden ban will certainly affect my product. And to think I am doing this to help Poser to get more users... I really feel betrayed.
Characters, Body Sculpts, Morph Corrections, Outfits, Python Scripts, Universal Heads, and Videogames!
Byrdie posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:11 PM
If there's a "Make Art" button, I sure haven't found it yet. Nope, not even in Stable Diffusion. Because I don't just type half a dozen words, invoke some Very Famous Artist, click "Generate" and presto! instant masterpiece. Nope, instead I take as much thought on composition, lighting, props and the like as I ever did in Poser or even back when I was using paper, pen and ink or canvas, paint and brush. Can take me hours to write a prompt I'm satisfied with enough to let the AI run. Days or even longer, depending on how much adjusting I do, before I consider an AI render worthy of investing more time and effort on until it's as close as possible to the image I have in mind. Sure, I've gotten good enough results in mere minutes like so many other AI users out there are churning out. Could probably have posted dozens every single day here when it was allowed and if I'd a mind to, but you see, I have this little problem. I just can't settle for plain "good enough."
And that, my dear friends, is why I have been doing AI art all wrong. ;-)
Giana posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:25 PM
Gill? this is not to bash on you, or anything of that ilk; however, i'd really like to ask a serious question, and you sound as if you know a lot about AI. so if you'd be willing to help me understand something, i'd surely appreciate it... if not, hey, that's cool, too. :))
and for clarification, i don't just load something into Poser, and hit render. i create a lot of my own textures, be it for character skins, hair, clothing, and props. i set up most of all my own shaders. i use my own lights & poses. it actually takes me about 2.5 days [time permitting] to "throw" something together. and that's not taking in the time for prep, like creating those things mentioned above, or the editing of models, or the re-rigging of things, etc. long ago i decided that because assets that i have purchased, meaning models, were NOT things i created, that i do need to do my best to try to create as much of anything else myself to the best of my ability so that some part of me might actually exist in whatever result i ended up with - doing so is extremely important to me, but that's me. and no one is required to follow the same mindset that i've laid out for myself. i'm extremely cool with that...
edit: forgot to mention that 2.5 days also excludes assembling the render in Photoshop, as i do tend to render out in layers, such as separate shadow map, individual portions for clean crisp alphas, etc., and whatever further painting i decide to do to try to make it "mine", such as further refinement of lighting, or painting over assets, that type of thing...
and i don't claim to be an artist, either, btw. i'm a hobbyist, at best.
anyway, my question is this: if AI isn't borrowing from other artists, where do those ghost signatures come from?
thanks for your time & consideration on my question :))
Ken1171_Designs posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:42 PM Online Now!
@Byrdie: From the plugin I have created for Poser, you will no longer need to try so many times when it comes to camera framing, character proportions, and pose. You establish all of these in Poser using your preferred figure, and the plugin exports a preprocessed OpenPose file you can drop into ControNet OpenPose, and whatever you prompt will be in that pose, proportions, and camera framing. You can find a good number of results I've got from this pipeline in my gallery, and the feedback I've got from social media has been massively positive - even from people who don't even know what Poser is.
It's a pipeline that starts in Poser (3D), then goes to Stable Diffusion (AI), and ends with postwork in Paintshop (2D). This alone has silenced all of those haters who claimed that images entirely made with AI had no merit because no human was involved. Back in the early 2000s, haters were claiming that anything made with Poser was "not art", and before that they claimed anything created with Photoshop was "not art", and before that they claimed that photography was "not art". Having that said, it comes to no surprise that now, anything created with AI is "not art". Some things never change, but my Poser plugin has already changed that perception in social media when I showed the results from this 3D-AI-2D pipeline, where AI is just part of the work.
Trends show that in the future, every human activity might be AI-assisted, so AI doesn't have to be everything, but it will be part of it.
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Crystalis posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:48 PM
@Giana: Forging a signature is a crime in all 50 U.S. states, and is considered a felony. AI will mock [forge] the signature of the artist because it cannot tell that it is a signature. AI has been trained to strip, blur, deface and crop out text only.
Giana posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:51 PM
so you mean the signature from the original image?
Crystalis posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:56 PM
Giana posted at 6:51 PM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474288
Yes, the actual artist that's getting mocked and ripped off, and AI is having their way with their art. Thing is anyone with a malicious intent could feed your entire gallery here and train the AI on it, so when you include "Giana Renderosity" in the prompt you will see your art being mocked. So now, who do you file a lawsuit against?so you mean the signature from the original image?
Please don't do this to Giana, or any other artist here. Don't try to mock and imitate other artists without their permission.
Giana posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:58 PM
thank you for your time answering... much appreciated :))
hope everyone has a good weekend!!
Giana posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:04 PM
oh, and i doubt that the majority of AI users have ever actually picked up a brush to paint either... just to be fair... shrug
Crystalis posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:05 PM
You have a great weekend as well, Giana :)
RodS posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:16 PM
OK, I'm going to have my say here.
Firstly, the notion that AI "steals" peoples art/images/photographs is a myth. It uses images as REFERENCE. It does not copy/paste bits of artwork into an image to create a new image. As a Vue user, I nearly always used photographs or paintings for reference, yet was never berated or banned for that. Most "real" artists use references, be it photo, image or physical.
Images are made up of noise. A demonstration of this is in the image below containing 4 shots of the progress from 0% to 100%. As you can clearly see, there is not copy/pasting going on. The images are being built up using noise.
The second image shows one of those 4 that has been taken into Photoshop. A squirrel has been hand painted in, and some branches and leaves added. Colour and lighting correction has also been done. This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button. This, although initially generated with AI has also been worked on by a human doing actual digial painting.
This brings me to my second gripe. Most of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves. I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas. THAT is a real artist. The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually. I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.
I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.
OK…. My turn.
Other than a couple of earlier comments, I have avoided becoming embroiled in this hellstorm. But…
This pisses me off. More later.
You are correct as far as SOME of the AI apps out there. They do “train” on images, and do not just use them “as is” to composite an image together. They train on styles, color palettes, subjects and so on. And yes, it is essentially reference. And yes, I use reference (lots of it) no matter what medium I’m using.
The image demonstration you provided was interesting and informative. And a lovely scene resulted.
So, what pisses me off? Just this:
“This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button. “
And:
“Most of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves. I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas. THAT is a real artist. The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually. I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.
I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.”
BS. And yours isn’t?
You moan and groan about us Poser/Daz folks lumping all AI users and images into one group of folks, then you turn around and do the same thing with Poser/Daz/Photoshop/Photography folks.
Look, I know you and maneki_neko and several others are upset about Rendo’s AI ban, and are taking it out on the people here who are not fans of this AI craze.
And, by the way… I have been creating art since I first had memory of picking up a pencil. For most of my childhood, I was always drawing on good old 8.5 X 11 paper with a #2 pencil. Later as a teen / young adult I used tons of Prismacolor colored pencils. I’ve also played with watercolor (not my favorite), oils, airbrush, and just about every medium I could get my hands on.
When computers became mainstream, yes… I started playing around in Photoshop – when it was in its early stages. I’ve been using it ever since.
I am also a photographer and have worked professionally in this medium. I worked with a local modeling agency, both photographing models, and assisting with setting up their first website.
And I’ve worked with Poser for 12 – 13 years, done some work with DAZ, also. And as far as “loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button” is concerned, you’ll not see an image posted by me that hasn’t been tweaked, morphed, lighted in multiple ways, color corrected, with Poser and Photoshop, sometimes for days. It’s certainly not a matter of “bada-bing, bada-boom, hit the render button.” A single page in my TNA series can sometimes take weeks to tweak - poses, expressions, camera angles, lighting, props placement, and render / assemble.
Like I said earlier, I know many of you are upset over the AI ban and are simply lashing out at those you assume are responsible. Yes, it's a relief to not see 30 - 50 AI images that all pretty much look the same every day. But it was Renderosity's decision, not mine.
OK?
Can we just move on, now? Please?
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage
Ken1171_Designs posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:21 PM Online Now!
When it comes to artistic styles, here is the law: artistic styles cannot be copyrighted, and as a matter of fact, basically all artists were influenced by artistic styles from one or multiple artists. What we now know as the Japanese manga style started off by importing many of the looks from Disney style, and later developed into their own very recognizable style. Later on, Disney itself, and both Marvel and DC comics then imported manga style into their own art, and the cycle keeps rolling. It doesn't matter who grabs a brush or a stylus - artistic styles cannot be owned by anyone. That's the law.
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Byrdie posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:30 PM
@giana -- the AI is not "forging" anything. But it has been trained with works that do contain signatures, watermarks and the like. So it will sometimes produce artifacts that may, if you squint hard enough, resemble something like writing. Because it has learned "if art then signature"; in other words it thinks those artifacts are supposed to be in the image. It is neither forging nor concealing anybody's actual mark, but it does at times invent something along that line. This is more likely to happen if you have a name in your prompt, especially as an artist's style. How do I know? Well, I once prompted "watercolour paintings in the style of This Fictional Artist I Just Invented" to test that out. Lo and behold! Stable Diffusion kept trying to put what it thought was my make-believe artist's name on almost every one. Take the name out of the prompt, the artifacts disappear. Because they were made up, not copied from any actual artist's work.
Hallucinating. I think that's what they call it when an AI makes stuff up just because. Weird. Undesirable. But certainly not a crime.
Giana posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:54 PM
huh.. i feel even more confused now... lol
@Gill - just want to say you've some lovely backgrounds here in your MP store for Poser/Daz users to utilise to help dress up their images :))
TwiztidKidd posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:57 PM
Some technology should just not be allowed period. AI is so crazy powerful it could post a threat to national security, it could generate fake news and start wars!
The point here is that AI art isn't the problem, but the capitalist system that forces artists to compete with AI is the problem... and when we are all great talented artists = no one really is a talented artist... there's no art in AI.
NO AI !!!
RodS posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 8:18 PM
The AI flooding continues (by at least one individual who shall remain nameless). Now they're posting it under "Other Apps."
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage
Ken1171_Designs posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 8:43 PM Online Now!
@Giana: Let me try to explain this in simple terms. The reason AI-generated images may sometimes contain what appears to be signatures is simply because the images used in the training contained logos and signatures. The AI simply doesn't know these things are not part of the artwork, and that's why it attempts to replicate them in generated images. Conversely, when a human artist learns art from the works of others, we KNOW their logos and signatures are not part of the art, so we will not replicate them in our own art. Therefore, this is a deficiency on the AI learning process, and has nothing to do with stealing. It's as simple as that. It's a common misunderstanding conclusion people tend to jump to because they don't know how AI is actually trained.
Hope this helps. :)
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RodS posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:22 PM
And, it's also being posted as "Mixed Medium." They're determined, I'll give 'em that...... 🙄
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage
TwiztidKidd posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:29 PM
I see the quality and quantity of nudes has dropped considerably, I must post some Poser nudes soon lol
Is there a filter that I can select so I can see only the nu-- nevermind :smile:
Giana posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:39 PM
trained on logos, which are typically copyrighted things, and signatures? ok, but where did these 'training' tools come from? companies and organisations just agreed to have their logos used in the 'training"?
i feel rather dubious about that, frankly...
whatever...
people will hear/read what they want, ignore everything else that someone says if they can't defend it, and use it all to defend their own position, esp. with regards to highly polarised things such as AI. that's just human nature, i suppose.
just means there is an overwhelming amount of non-listening & communication breakdown.
i actually DO miss your Poser girl, Twiz - the one before your foray in Face App... i loved her upturned nose :))
TwiztidKidd posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:54 PM
Thank you, Giana! I liked the portraits you used to make around 2016 - 2017, it would look so much like AI art lol
Now, that anyone can do that kind of style and image using AI... it makes your images look just ordinary... except you spent a whole lot of time creating them... which sux, time you could've put to other use... I'm sorry I'm starting to sound a bit depressing lol
Have a great weekend, my friend!
Ken1171_Designs posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:59 PM Online Now!
trained on logos, which are typically copyrighted things, and signatures? ok, but where did these 'training' tools come from? companies and organisations just agreed to have their logos used in the 'training"?
The training materials come from data sets used for AI training in research groups in universities and the industry in general. These data sets have been used for research and development for decades, but only became known to the general public after AI became popular (somewhere around last year). These data sets were obtained under the "fair use" legal requirements. Nothing was stolen, or else there would have been lawsuits all over the place decades ago.
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Giana posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 10:11 PM
thanks, Twiz. i sometimes miss doing those, too, but no terribly. i've learned sooo much from working w. my current character and have garnered a few new simple skills. not willing to give her up for personal reasons, which you may be aware of regarding Andy. V4 loads as my default when booting up Poser, and due to mucking w. Abby for this long now, V4's proportions seem really visually odd to me these days...lol
good thing i don't give a damn about being popular...
@Ken - ok, thanks for clarifying
WendyLuvsCatz posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 10:47 PM
I must admit I am in awe of Crystalis who has me on ignore because their gallery is full of original work created by them as they are vehemently antiAI yet to my totally ignorant eye it looks like AI.
I can only dream of having such mad skills.
Lunaseas posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 11:57 PM
Same here and Twiz. I have never interacted with either of them. I didn't even know you could block on here...shows what I know. However, I usually stay away from the forums because most of the time unless I'm asking for information attacks and judgements often run rampant. :( I for one would have been fine with no posting AI in the galleries and having a forum for it... just IMHO.I must admit I am in awe of Crystalis who has me on ignore because their gallery is full of original work created by them as they are vehemently antiAI yet to my totally ignorant eye it looks like AI.
I can only dream of having such mad skills.
Kenmac posted Sat, 09 September 2023 at 12:04 AM
I just thought I'd post something here that I saw mentoned earlier today on Matt Wolfes YouTube channel. It's very relevant to what we're discussing here.
https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/07/artists-sign-open-letter-saying-generative-ai-is-good-actually/
When you get to the Techcrunch website there's another link in the main story that takes you to the Creative Commons website.
WendyLuvsCatz posted Sat, 09 September 2023 at 12:38 AM
some of you might want to stay off X, Zoom etc too
RodS posted Sat, 09 September 2023 at 12:46 AM
Hey, Rick, ya need to search for "vapid nudes" as one of the fine folks on page 1 of this happy little discussion referred to them! 🤣 I'm working on a couple my own pervy self... 🤣😂I see the quality and quantity of nudes has dropped considerably, I must post some Poser nudes soon lol
Is there a filter that I can select so I can see only the nu-- nevermind :smile:
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage
gillbrooks posted Sat, 09 September 2023 at 7:09 AM
Re the "gthost signatures". Well, A couple of days ago I took an old Vue render of MINE into Midjourney to see what I could do.
Just to show you here the original with my signature on....
And one of what MJ came up with
As you can see, no sign of a signature, ghost or otherwise. On this or any of the others.
As far as the rest is concerned, it pees me off that a group of individuals seem to think it's OK to have a go at someone or something, but when those people get the same in return they don't like it. I reiterate my comment about hypocrisy.
Those who think that AI is the antichrist will never listen. To me, to someone who is far more knowledgeable on the subject than I ( @Ken1171_Designs ), or anyone else for that matter. They refuse to believe anyone who does not agree with their blinkered opinions, and for that reason, this is my last comment on and reading of this thread.
Thank you and goodnight.
Gill
CHMedia posted Sat, 09 September 2023 at 9:29 AM
Hello all,
I am going to lock this thread for now. Please sitemail me if you need an ear. Thank you all for your constructive feedback. I have taken note.