Hello, I have been using Poser since Poser 4.  I love the program, through all the different versions and ups and downs.   My concern for the future of

the program is real.  I am at the point in my life where I do not want to learn another program if I don't have to.  The real thing holding back the possible future of

Poser is the content.   Is there really no chance/way to build a relationship with Daz to have their newer models/content to be able to work inside Poser?  The

amount of content missed out on is really annoying.  I really like the Superfly renderer now, and would love to be able to work with some of the newer models

and content that Daz puts out.   What is holding this back?  I think it would be a win/win for both companies.  I am not well versed in all the technical under the

hood stuff, so maybe the answer is very simple that I just don't understand.   Thanks in advance.

DS and Poser use entirely different weight mapping techniques, and rigging and morphs are the most time consuming part of content creation. Not quite double the work to make it work in both, but commercial products are expected to meet a higher standard than you might expect if it is for your own use. 

Using genesis clothing on Poser figures is another challenge, as the clothing would have to be reshaped to fit Poser figures and THEN rerigged and regrouped.

After all that is considered, content creators have to weigh whether nearly double the work would result in nearly double the sales. 

Yes, Daz allowing their content to be used in Poser would be a win for every one. It's even technically possible. If you've been following the Poserverse since Poser 4 you know Daz used to support Poser. They decided to burn that bridge. They've been invited to build back a relationship multiple times. They aren't interested.

Yeah, I started with Vicky 1 and went up to Vicky 4.2.   The real shame is all the content creators that I used to buy from are only doing stuff for Daz and their models now.

Totally agree with cappy3.Frustrated that Renderosity has become almost a Daz lite store With the only

Poser figure support is for La Femme, aka the Poser killer.I have actually spent the last week rediscovering

and rebuilding my Victoria 3 Runtime and been pleasantly surprised how nice it is,especially with addons such 

as Corvas Simple Details shoulder fix,plus the amount of clothing,characters,etc I have accumulated over time

will keep me amused for quite some time.

@jimros

Would you explain to me what do you mean by the notion that LaFemme is the Poser killer?
What's wrong with her?
I have made some free stuff for her, you can find here on Renderosity, including morphs.
She is a nice piece of geometry and it has been fun to work with.
I agree with you that we lack modern content for Poser.
As long as we complain and wait for Daz to do us a favor, the future of Poser is to migrate to Daz.
I'm 58 years old now and I spend almost 20 years with Poser.
I don't want to use Daz Studio, I tried and I didn't like the way it works, looks and feels.
So, seems to me that we have to build our own world in Poser, so to speak. 
You know what? The more I think about it, I will open a new thread to create a sort of wish-list of content we need in Poser.
Maybe you could do a list of things you want to use in Poser and I pick a thing or two, maybe someone else will do it too?
What do you think?

Not La Femme as a figure ,looks quite good, just the lack of support from the marketplace, seems to be very little available for her. especially when compared with 

 what is available for the DAZ  figures

@jimros

I agree with you on that point 100%.
That's why we need to create things for her ecosystem our self's.
Since most of the former Poser Content Creators have left the Poser Community for the more lucrative Marketplace Daz Studio we have to do it on our own.
I already started the new thread I mentioned in my first reply to you.
If you are interested, consider joining the conversation over there.
As I wrote, drop a list of your most needed things.
I can't promise wonders, but at least we have a base line from which we can start to make things happen.

Hot take: make LaFemme/LHomme figures more adult content friendly.

Have you seen the huge Adult Visual Novel market out there? That will definitely get some interest in Poser. Someone had to make a whole different LaFemme2 version to add female genitalia and, while I praise the effort, afaik it's not able to use LaFemme2 stuff easily on it so it's a clunky solution. On Genesis figures you just slap on the proper geograft and you are good to go (with G9 kinda messing things up a bit but still not as much)

If Reallusion also made their CC figures adult content friendly I'm sure they would also get more sales considering how good their apps are (CC and iClone) but that's also why they probably don't need to, plus they keep making it much easier to use their apps with figures other than their own.

Poser doesn't really have a selling point to stand out besides not needing a Nvidia card, which would be great for some wanting to make their own Adult Visual Novels if the figures could be used for that.

blackbonner posted at 4:46 AM Sat, 24 August 2024 - #4488696

@jimros

Would you explain to me what do you mean by the notion that LaFemme is the Poser killer?
What's wrong with her?
I have made some free stuff for her, you can find here on Renderosity, including morphs.
She is a nice piece of geometry and it has been fun to work with.
I agree with you that we lack modern content for Poser.
As long as we complain and wait for Daz to do us a favor, the future of Poser is to migrate to Daz.
I'm 58 years old now and I spend almost 20 years with Poser.
I don't want to use Daz Studio, I tried and I didn't like the way it works, looks and feels.
So, seems to me that we have to build our own world in Poser, so to speak. 
You know what? The more I think about it, I will open a new thread to create a sort of wish-list of content we need in Poser.
Maybe you could do a list of things you want to use in Poser and I pick a thing or two, maybe someone else will do it too?
What do you think?

Much like communism, "better bending" was a red herring......

All of that nice geometry never translated into vendor support/content. From an end user perspective, neither of these figures brought anything to the table that we didn't already have.  LF & LH were built to address vendor issues with making content - remind me again how that worked out, as far as lots of new content coming out.

<Lots of angry ranting removed>

From an end user perspective, LF/LH is no different than any other post-V4 Poser figure.  If you are doing single image stills of girl pinup art, she is ok.  Move outside of that, and you will be spending more time converting legacy content for it's use than it was worth. After you have converted everything you plan on using, there isn't an incentive to spend money on new content.

LF & LH were the 1st meshes that I truly never cared about due to the lack of vendor support.  I have seen this movie too many times already.  SM put the Fitting Room into Poser for a reason - and that reason was lack of vendor support. 

<Lots of angry ranting removed>

If we build a new mesh, the vendors will come is the same failed strategy we have lived with since Poser 9.

Poser and that other program have completely different business models - yet the Poserverse keeps trying to use the other one.  Poser is a toolbox that allows us to use whatever we want. That other program is like a gatcha mobile game - always nickle and diming you, while never fixing the underlying problems with the software.

Most vendors only make what they are personally interested in, and many were very, very adverse to learning the new tools that are in Poser, which leads to a figure having no overall direction.  Rosity had the opportunity to address this with LF & LH, and they fumbled it about as badly as possible.

<Lots of angry ranting removed>

I would rather that 'Rosity work on improving the Fitting Room, and adding support for rendering with AMD graphics cards (via the Pro Render Engine - it is open source & they have a Cycles Plug-in).  Then as end users, we can use whatever we want.  Ken1171 has us covered with converting most DS content with his fine array of scripts. 

Shoes - get us a shoe converter, it is the last piece to becoming figure agnostic.

<Lots of angry ranting removed>

What I want to see is NORMAL clothing for my characters.  In it's lifespan, LF never got a week's worth of clothing that could be worn in an office environment.  Now realize that LH got about 10% of that.

The issue is, once I get going with the fitting room, there is less & less incentive for me to purchase content. 

With Poser 5, I could create anything I could imagine - with Poser 13, I can do pin up art - but not as well, nor as fast as I can in Stable Diffusion - for a lot less money, as well.

You keep saying there isn't a week's worth of office clothes. But looking in the marketplace, I've found several. I'll admit I've never worked in an office, I've always been able to wear jeans to work.

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/137445/la-femme-business-suit 3 color options

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/151559/office-suit-viii-for-la-femme 6 color options

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/152499/da-femenin-for-office-suit-viii 6 color options

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/154416/nine-to-five-for-office-suit-viii 8 color options

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/163519/thetrenchcoatset-for-lafemme2-lafemme-and-v4 1 color

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/163527/ra-for-the-trench-coat-set 5 color options

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/149954/dynamic-skirt-set-for-dawn-and-la-femme 6 color options though you might need to add a blazer to this

That's for different geometries with 35 different color options.

Lafemme has clothes available. You just need to take the time to look for it

---

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10

... If I had a penny for every time I've seen ssgbryan say "a week's worth of office clothing" in these forums, I might be able to retire by now LOL. You're the only one, Bryan, sorry to say that. You can't really make it worth our working time alone. You don't speak with your wallet, we won't go out of our way to please you single-handedly specially when I don't see you buying much. This is work for me, my income is on the line.

The thing is, very few of us Poser vendors are left. We can't suppy a figure like V4 could, because in V4 times there were hundreds of vendors making stuff for her. We can't supply figures like DS Genesis, because there are thousands of vendors making stuff for that.

And why is it that only a few of us are left? Honestly, from my PoV there are a few reasons:

-A lot of us - specially tool creators - have passed away or retired

-Poserdom doesn't know how to bring new people in. The software doesn't make itself known, or desirable for modern audiences.

-It's very frustrating to make content for Poser. While the process is simpler, it doesn't automate anything for the end user, leaving vendors to have to hand-make each part of the process (like adding every single morph, making sure their mix doesn't create pokethrough, etc etc), and there are so many bugs through creation that you end up having to redo what you've made several times because something got corrupted or just weird at some point.

-Poser was stuck in limbo for many years, abandoned while other programs evolved and got better.

-Current Poser ownership IS doing what they can to make it better, and I myself have seen a few of my wishlist requests for new features be added in the past couple of years, but I don't think they have enough staff to keep up and try to fix everything in a timely manner.

What to do about that? I don't know, you tell me. I do what I can, which is making figures that are pretty out of the box and as easy to create content for as Poser can possibly allow (and anyone out there who's made conforming clothing for LF and for LF2 can tell you that it's easier for LF2 - but how many of those are left? Me plus one or two other vendors?), and even for those I try to make it so previous content can more easily be used. Other than that? I'm a single person, and I'm not a developer. Can't do any more than that.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

If I can ha e one request. Just once, maybe wuth the cooperation of vendors and the software writes, write a content creator primer for the modern iterations of Poser. The software doesn't attract new vendors because content creation for it is an arcane mystery and it's secrets are hidden in private conversations,  three forums, two if which are extinct, four manuals (with no actual examples) and ancient primers from the early 2000s.

Rhia474 posted at 1:54 PM Mon, 23 September 2024 - #4489644

If I can ha e one request. Just once, maybe wuth the cooperation of vendors and the software writes, write a content creator primer for the modern iterations of Poser. The software doesn't attract new vendors because content creation for it is an arcane mystery and it's secrets are hidden in private conversations,  three forums, two if which are extinct, four manuals (with no actual examples) and ancient primers from the early 2000s.

I keep wanting to circle back to that. At some point, I had an agreement with Jenn to make tutorials for Poser - but she had to leave, and that was left out in the open, and then I got (extremely) busy working on LF2 and now LH2. And after LH2, I'll need a good break for mental health reasons - after that, I might again try to go back to that project.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

RedPhantom posted at 6:49 PM Sun, 22 September 2024 - #4489618

You keep saying there isn't a week's worth of office clothes. But looking in the marketplace, I've found several. I'll admit I've never worked in an office, I've always been able to wear jeans to work.

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/137445/la-femme-business-suit 3 color options

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/151559/office-suit-viii-for-la-femme 6 color options

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/152499/da-femenin-for-office-suit-viii 6 color options

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/154416/nine-to-five-for-office-suit-viii 8 color options

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/163519/thetrenchcoatset-for-lafemme2-lafemme-and-v4 1 color

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/163527/ra-for-the-trench-coat-set 5 color options

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/149954/dynamic-skirt-set-for-dawn-and-la-femme 6 color options though you might need to add a blazer to this

That's for different geometries with 35 different color options.

Lafemme has clothes available. You just need to take the time to look for it

I have seen all of these.  The reason they aren't in my runtimes is they are not office appropriate. None of these work in a  white collar environment.  If those skirts went to at least just above the knee or to the knee, they would be fine - otherwise, we are having Basic Instinct at the office.  I've seen people sent home for the mini-skirts.  There is also the issue of the colors. 

See this as an example:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=female+appropriate+office+wear&t=ffab&atb=v344-1&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

or

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=female+office+wear&atb=v344-1&iax=images&ia=images

Lots of dark colors, solids, sleeves on the shirts, no cleavage, and skirts that end at the knee or just above it. 

The LF "business suit" is great if you are going out on a date, or the club, or shopping; just not the office - the same can be said for all of the color combinations.  And that was so easy to fix too - run the skirt to the knees & then change the colors.  This is what kept getting me so frustrated - 99% of the way there, and then the vendor snatches defeat from the jaws of victory.

As far as the trench coat outfit, it isn't worth $14 - It looks like something from the V2 era (I have loads of better looking outfits for V2 & V3 that have survived a trip through either the fitting room, Xdresser, or Wardrobe Wizard for post V4 figures.

The dynamic set has a similar issue - the lack of sleeves on the top.

To be fair, i looked at the MP right now for one for V4 and the only conservative one i was able to find was a pantsuit. The ones with skirts had the same problem: too short.

And yet the barely there bikinis and undies just keep on coming. LOL

Ikr?

Further to Rhia474's observation, the latest edition of the Poser 13 manual appears out-of-date. Recently I searched for insight on the Subsurface Skin's ScatterScale function/settings and found nothing using the manual's search function. Clicking around didn't help.

As for content development, I've held off posting this because I don't know how many users this affects. But at least for me, new figures that only have dynamic clothes are non-starters and will not replace the SASH2019 version of V4.2+ I use. I may be the only one, but I get dynamic clothes to drape correctly less than 10% of the time. In fact, I bought an item that included two versions of the same thing plus a simulation and instructions. One draped as it should have. The other didn't even come close, leaving me to wonder whether the vendors even understood this process. And for those who actually figured out the dynamics, it seems dynamic clothes may work well for single character pin-up renders. But for those of us who create scenes that include, for example, three characters on a sidewalk, buildings in the background, and a motion-blurred car driving down the street, dynamic clothing completely hoses up the render. I realize that may be simply due to my lack of knowledge, but as Rhia474 noted, a little information may cause some of us to finally understand the dynamic morass and buy new products. As it is now, I'm sticking with conforming clothes that I can adjust/alter with the morph and grouping tools. I would very-much like an up-to-date tutorial on how to convert dynamic clothing to conforming and how to actually make conforming clothing conform. But if LF2.0 and Dawn2.0 are dynamic clothing only figures, SASHA 2019 will remain my figure of choice.

As always, just my contribution to the marketplace of ideas.   

3D Age has some very nice office outfits for v4

Exactly 2 of which is office appropriate--wearing the rest of it would have them sending me home so fast it's not even funny.

DeeceyArt posted at 4:48 PM Mon, 23 September 2024 - #4489653

And yet the barely there bikinis and undies just keep on coming. LOL

To be fair, they're FAR easier to make. Skin tight clothes are much easier to rig, and the less coverage means there's less pokethrough to worry about.

The thing with "office" suits is:

-They're hard to model. You have to worry  about things like fabric behavior, the cut and tailoring of the suit, etc.

-You have to rig everything thinking of how things will poke through the figure AND each other - a sweater might poke through the pants, etc.

-Rigging rigid things like buttons is a nightmare.

-And the more fabric coverage, the more you have to worry about texture stretching at the joints.

-Now add having to add working morphs to all that AND still worrying about all that pokethrough and stretching.

Now consider: all that extra work, AND very few people actually purchase that kind of outfit.

And then you understand why vendors don't really make that stuff.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

On the other hand, there's dynamics that would make all that much easier on the vendor AND make the clothing behave much more naturally - but how many users actually purchase dynamics? Or purchase and then complain to the vendor that the outfut isn't automatically following the pose, because the user doesn't even know what dynamic clothing is?

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

It baffles me that dynamics are so little used. It took me a while to internalize the process and also to learn to ALWAYS  check the individual product readnes/ instructions because every vendor does it just a bit different,  but the basics are not that hard. And the results are lovely.

There are also, ironically,  more tutorials around about dynamic clothes than many other features of Poser. 

It's several extra steps, many users are intimidated by that. Many users are even too intimidated to use any of the other tabs in Poser, apart from the default pose/preview tab.

That's why we've taken to including scripts to automate the dynamic simulation process. I'm not sure if that's actually making more people dare to use dynamics, but I've beem making sure to always include those.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

I totally get it as it is great on the short term. The problem with scripts is that as soon as there is a Python version update, they will need updating. As we saw it many times with excellent scripts, they become unusable the second the original creator disappears/ stops supporting Poser. Unless a script is supplied with the program it is a risk to rely on in such a small ecosystem. 

I mean, yeah, every user should learn how to set things up by themselves, but the best we vendors can do is something like this. We have no shortage of tutorials on that matter, at least.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

The scripts that usually fail are those that are compiled PYC.  If they are left uncompiled they should work unless there is a change to the syntax rules, and even then, it would be  fairly simple to fix the error.  If not the that user then they could ask and someone can give the fix in a post.  The same thing happened to PE when Poser 11 came out.  The script was setup to work with Poser 9 OR Poser 10.  By changing a single line in the script it was possible for it to work with 9 OR 10+.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13

These are scripts vendors made here and on the other site that no linfer support Poser. I've tried to stir interest to help (I don't know Python from viper so to sprak ...)  as many were super useful for Poser users but no one spoke up.  Not sure how  to even start. 

hi all,

(sérieusement, je suis utilisateur depuis poser 3 et je crée du contenu gratuit depuis des années. renderosity a été le pire gestionnaire du logiciel, et semble complètement dépassé... ils devraient revendre la licence Poser à une autre société qui la développera. Pour renderosity, posséder Poser était la solution pour avoir le contrôle sur les fans... et depuis, les choix stratégiques commerciaux ont été très très mitigés ! je ne veux pas être méchant mais ils sont vraiment à côté de la plaque ! exemple : poserfusion permettait d'interagir avec les 4 grands noms de l'industrie 3d. D'ailleurs daz3d ne s'est pas trompé, ils ont créé daz-bridge, pas à la hauteur à mon avis et moins interporable que poserfusion.)

seriously, i've been a user since poser 3 and i've been creating free content for years. renderosity has been the worst manager of the software, and seems to be completely outdated... they should resell the Poser license to another company that will develop it. For renderosity, owning Poser was the solution to have control over the fans... and since then, the commercial strategic choices have been very very mixed! i don't want to be mean but they are really off the mark! example: poserfusion allowed interaction with the 4 big names in the 3d industry. Besides daz3d was not mistaken, they created daz-bridge, not up to par in my opinion and less interporable than poserfusion.

i think renderosity killed the Poser software...

best regards

je pense que Renderosity a tué le logiciel Poser...

"Renderosity has been the worst manager of the software"

ok ok I'm gonna give my input here from someone who has been usiing Poser since Poser 1, and creating content for it since Poser 5: no, Renderosity hasn't been the worst. Renderosity might have been the one with less resources though.

Smith Micro took good care of it for a while, then as soon as it was no longer as profitable, they just completely cut up the entire development team and abandoned it. THAT was the worst part, because those years of complete radio silence were the ones that allowed all other programs to race well past Poser technology-wise and take almost all its users and content creators. With Renderosity, what happens is that Poser is now in the hands of a company that has more interest in it (as it also sells content for it), but also didn't have prior experience with developing software (it was a website development company), as far as I know. The team is capable, but small. Fixes and new features come slow.

The thing is, yes, they come slow, and don't look flashy - because every new company that got their hands on Poser tried to give it new exciting features, but just hacked them onto the program without fixing the underlying tech to make it work smoothly. We're left with a program that has so many bugs and limitations accumulated from that frankensteining of different teams. It's like a house that was built to be a single-floor house, but then every new buyer of it kept building new floors one atop the other without fixing the foundations. It's starting to crack at the walls. If it continues like this, it's gonna crumble over its own weight and get destroyed.

What Renderosity has been doing is, as well as they can, they're tweaking the foundations of the house so that it can support new weight. We've already had a revamp of Superfly, that now allows them to update with newer versions of Blender's Cycles faster than before - when every new GPU model required an entirely new Poser version to be supported. Things like old rigging bugs are getting fixed - it's no longer a complete nightmare to use the Joint Editor! - and other things under the hood are getting fixed. What this means is that end users almost don't see any changes, but if this wasn't done, the entire program would be unusable soon.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

Thank you for laying that out, Ohki, people need to see that. I wish that was a banner article on the site.

Dealing with technical debt while maintaining compatibility can be a developer nightmare. turning a program started when cpu had one core, 16 bits  and so few Ghz  to the massively parallel nowadays architectures is challenging too. Covering the code with unit tests is mandatory before refactoring seriously, but it cannot be seen by users.
I don't think it's dead. But the team cannot get open source code taken from other projects in it only.The last release came with this intriguing sentence :

This release marks a change of direction for the Poser development team.  Customers can expect ongoing updates to Poser 13 for the next 12-24 months as the team explores new technologies for the next major version of Poser.

so i believe they gave up and try to start something else, we just can try to  guess what : Transform poser into a paying Blender plugin for posing ?

I hope not. I've tried Blender, it's not for me.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 7:41 AM Fri, 27 September 2024 - #4489788

Smith Micro took good care of it for a while, then as soon as it was no longer as profitable, they just completely cut up the entire development team and abandoned it. THAT was the worst part, because those years of complete radio silence were the ones that allowed all other programs to race well past Poser technology-wise and take almost all its users and content creators. With Renderosity, what happens is that Poser is now in the hands of a company that has more interest in it (as it also sells content for it), but also didn't have prior experience with developing software (it was a website development company), as far as I know. The team is capable, but small. Fixes and new features come slow.

This. As one of those who was blindsided by Smith Micro in an all hands on deck telephone meeting (three days before Thanksgiving 2016), the way Smith Micro let the entire Poser team go was BRUTAL. The meeting was not even 15 minutes long and  email accounts were locked and closed within that time. The team was later replaced with people that knew little to nothing of Poser and the application languished for five years. At least Renderosity had the smarts to hire back some of the original development team and get the application back on track.

Meanwhile, Smith Micro's stock is floundering and hanging on a knife's edge.

Is development at Rendo slow?  Yes. But at least it's moving and heading in a better direction. God, I hope they don't tie Poser to a specific modeling application. That would be a huge mistake. 

Correction for accuracy's sake. The lull was just over four years. Rendo released Poser 12 in early 2021, and gradually released SR's with additional new features during that year. 

lsauvage posted at 8:29 AM Fri, 27 September 2024 - #4489790

so i believe they gave up and try to start something else, we just can try to  guess what : Transform poser into a paying Blender plugin for posing ?

That would make absolutely no sense. Specially considering that the vast majority of remaining Poser users seem to stay for the user interface simplicity.

DeeceyArt posted at 12:03 PM Fri, 27 September 2024 - #4489797

As one of those who was blindsided by Smith Micro in an all hands on deck telephone meeting (three days before Thanksgiving 2016), the way Smith Micro let the entire Poser team go was BRUTAL. The meeting was not even 15 minutes long and  email accounts were locked and closed within that time. 

Oh god, I didn't know it was THAT bad. :(

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

Yup it was. 

Rotten Thanksgiving that year, for sure. Especially given that it was totally unexpected, and our team was REALLY tight and close.  Miss those times.

Geez. I'm so sorry you had to go through that, Deecey. That sucks :(

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

My Happy Thanksgiving wish on Facebook had an extra word in between that year that began with "F"  LOL

I hesitate to say it, but the problem in my eyes is not so much lack of support (at least, not only), but that often the offered content for LF/LF2 for example does look a bit outdated quality-wise. I have older gowns for V4 and V3 even with more detail than some things offered for the newer, more modern figures. I find little reason to purchase those, then.The trenchcoat set mentioned earlier is really a good example.

And even if the tghings might be good, the promos often don't show it. D|S promos often look much more sophisticated. An example:

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/165956/prae-gwendolyn-hair-for-g8g9-females

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/165957/prae-gwendolyn-hair-for-la-femme-2-and-dawn-2-poser

The same product, and I really think it's a cute hairstyle which I'm considering to purchase... but had I only the poser promos to go by I might pass it.

Or harem pants...

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/163215/sic-jeanne-harem-pants-for-g8x-f

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/163376/sic-jeanne-harem-pants-for-la-femme-2

I purchased the La Femme version because of the D|S promos... the poser promos, I'm sorry to say, look like images I might have done in my first poser days like15 years ago. I think it must be hard to make high qhality promos in two such different applications, but there are some light sets and such out there that would help a lot. And little things like nice poses that look natural.

If you're totally new to 3D and go by promos alone you'll certainly get the impression that D|S will make better pictures. So... if the products that are there were more sophisticated or better promoted it might help at least a little.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but that's been on my mind for some time now.

Afro, I definetively don't mean your things, those are a light at the end of poser tunnel.

Oh, and I really love dynamics, by the way. Most of my images contain dynamic clothing nowadays. some even borrowed dforce things from Genesiswhatevernumber.

Ah, yes, quality of Poser promos is something I have been screaming about for probably years now. Still very rarely I see the quality the DAZ side of this site offers if looking only at the promos. It's almost as everything is still rendered with Poser 7 lights and quality. It is really time to update things. I mean, how many DAZ vendors still render and set things with settings from 2008?

Poser won't be able to move on if the content  PRESENTATION can't keep up with the software improvements and if content creation isn't something that is easy to learn.

People have been predicting the demise of Poser for over 20 years....

And it is still here.....

Food for thought.....

---

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

shvrdavid posted at 1:46 PM Sat, 5 October 2024 - #4490015

People have been predicting the demise of Poser for over 20 years....

And it is still here.....

Food for thought.....

Oh for sure (after all I am still here too), but for how big an audience? And by how many creators?

Varnayrah posted at 11:37 AM Sat, 5 October 2024 - #4490007

I hesitate to say it, but the problem in my eyes is not so much lack of support (at least, not only), but that often the offered content for LF/LF2 for example does look a bit outdated quality-wise. I have older gowns for V4 and V3 even with more detail than some things offered for the newer, more modern figures. I find little reason to purchase those, then.The trenchcoat set mentioned earlier is really a good example.

And even if the tghings might be good, the promos often don't show it. D|S promos often look much more sophisticated. An example:

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/165956/prae-gwendolyn-hair-for-g8g9-females

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/165957/prae-gwendolyn-hair-for-la-femme-2-and-dawn-2-poser

The same product, and I really think it's a cute hairstyle which I'm considering to purchase... but had I only the poser promos to go by I might pass it.

Or harem pants...

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/163215/sic-jeanne-harem-pants-for-g8x-f

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/163376/sic-jeanne-harem-pants-for-la-femme-2

I purchased the La Femme version because of the D|S promos... the poser promos, I'm sorry to say, look like images I might have done in my first poser days like15 years ago. I think it must be hard to make high qhality promos in two such different applications, but there are some light sets and such out there that would help a lot. And little things like nice poses that look natural.

If you're totally new to 3D and go by promos alone you'll certainly get the impression that D|S will make better pictures. So... if the products that are there were more sophisticated or better promoted it might help at least a little.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but that's been on my mind for some time now.

Afro, I definetively don't mean your things, those are a light at the end of poser tunnel.

Oh, and I really love dynamics, by the way. Most of my images contain dynamic clothing nowadays. some even borrowed dforce things from Genesiswhatevernumber.I 

I agree with you. 

𝒫𝒽𝓎𝓁

---

(っ◔◡◔)っ

👿 Win11 on i9-13900K@5GHz, 64GB, RoG Strix B760F Gamng, Asus Tuf Gaming RTX 4070 OC Edition, 1 TB SSD, 6+4+8TB HD
👿 Mac Mini M2, Sonoma 14.6.1, 16GB, 500GB SSD
👿 Nas 10TB
👿 Poser 13 and soon 14 ❤️

It is more likely that the creators with experience, good creators that have an eye for details, Creators that grew up with advanced tools, left poser for either Daz Studio or other platforms, allot also started making stuff for Industrially more advanced programs with a higher value for there works. The remains are rather unexperienced creators the main reason why most outfits are made as Dynamics, you can blame the end user if it does not work the way expected, you need allot more experience when making conforming stuff or standalone models.

Poser sure can offer great render results but here also, most that were capable are long gone. Poser is at a reset point causing that most renders seem like made at the time of posette, that goes all the way to the Product promo renders.

A capable creator will always choose the place where he can make most profit for he's work, it is a hard business considering that brokers charge 50%  a 20$ item must be sold 30 times just to get a day work covered, even then it is a cheap work, selling an item 30 times is now day's already " Top Vendor " " First Page " but consider that making a quality asset takes you more then a day of work .... 90% of creators end up with 50c an hour for there engagements.

Customers Have high expectations, They buy an 5-10$ asset and expect full lifetime support, updates, high end quality! Even if they get it for free they have expectations for support. 

Good experienced creators also get pushed off by users with attention disorders pretending having a great know how, shouting out loud, but in reality not even capable making a high quality render. Also a cause that quality creators look for a better place or a platform with better recognition for there work. 

For a Creator it is also Important having customers that are capable of using the software and produce good renders, This is Publicity, If customers, end users just make crappy renders then the creator will not get enough attention to sell the products and try to find a community with more creative potential to sell assets.

It will probably take decades for poser getting users back with a creative eye after the full reset and there is allot of concurrence at the moment, customers will always choose the place with the best visual influence and poser sure does not have a good visual position at the moment to get the deserved success.

 

As for creating a better relationship with Daz  for poser. Yes there are options, but it is not up to the Programmers of Poser or Daz Studio! These are extensions that creators can provide both Poser and Daz Studio support these. But there is rather a lack of interests from creators providing these either they work for Poser or DS in rare cases for both, It also makes things more complicated for the creator supporting both platforms for the same Income.

Look at Daz users they moan about support of a free Platform, moan about free base models. They are free but they moan as if they make professional investments.

There were offers for cross compatibility support  but these got smashed down a long time ago! You need to consider that things not always work by just pressing a button, the user who really wants using DS in Poser via versa needs a little experience, understanding of assets and then things work for sure as the tools are already given just not the Button. Where there is a will there is a way! We call this creativity.

The next point is if a Creator finds a way providing such a support, what do you think, will he share it, will he use it for he's own benefits. For sure he will think twice about such an advantage and naturally will try to protect he's interests. I think he will keep it for own interests rather then giving it away for others to make profit and cut down what he deserves.

You can always take a stroll through my gallary and judge for yourself if I argue from an inexperienced user's place who doesn't know how to tweak things to her liking :)

Doesn't make untrue what I said... I suppose poser needs both, the experienced vendors and end users.

Got me curious for an instant. So Honest personal meaning about your renders

Lets ask the question is the render really pushing people to buy the Product, can it be a big audience ! This is what the creator should ask him self first. Look at the renders compare with others ask your self would you buy your own product base on the Promotional work. Could it be better ? how do I bring my renders alive so that they do not look like mannequins wearing outfits with dead starring eyes. 

Now my personal meaning about your Promotional works .. Don't take it personal ok !? ( Gallery )  There is quiet some to improve to make it really attractive for my taste needs to bring life into it

( Store ) First thing I see is the face the hair on every Promo not the outfit so what are you selling ?! It is a little irritating I need to scroll down to see is it a doll is it an outfit is it the whole package .

As vendor you can estimate your self how popular your product gets by the sales, are you happy with them , then all is good, I mean the average for each product. are you selling more then 60 samples of each considering that your earning average has a max of 5$ a sale. 60 samples eguals a day of work I believe that it takes you more then one normal working day for each to hit the store. 

If your sales are below 10 ( Ouch ) then there is a need or Improvement in the presentation for sure, you also need to consider that you need to attract new customers not just the ones you already have and that is where your Art works take place. If your customers make crappy artworks or have issues using your products then you might encounter a  drawback ( Less sales ) 

A vendor Artist should always say to him self ( I can do even better )

I was not talking about my store, I gave up being a vendor years ago, but thank you for the advice all the same ;)

well to bad your outfits were looking good :) but sure are hard times for Asset creators atm. you need to have a little luck or just hit a product that allot just want to have. Brokers are not a good help on this there fee's hurt big time and do not make it very motivating at all. Also the prices Creators tend to drop there price, but they do not sell any more as customers look at what they want and do not really care about the price. As creator you should always put the price you want to earn after the 50% broker charge, If you want 15$ then well you need to charge 30$ . these 15$ already make 3 sales of your 5$ :)

Sure it has to make fun being a creator as there is often no big reward and you probably will never get your hour's payed not even after a few years in a store ! So either you can sell allot or the price needs to be raised, not go on sale to much that hurts big time , another 50% puff and you end up with 2.50$ a sale :)

Vendors do not tend talking allot about this, but reality is that most do not get a deserved reward. They think by dropping the price they will, but that is totally wrong thinking. A Poser DS asset has not less quality then a Professionally sold asset, it even has more features and better quality then these.

So all hangs a little together, The presentation, the quality, the price, and every day trying to do better with self critique. Might be me, but every creation I do I think I could of done it even better :) Important is not to sell your self to cheap, allot of customers and end users do not even open a post that is cheap  or does not represent a visual communication 

this is for example a very nice presentation for a product , no distractions and a like a showcase. very good example, wonder why you stopped releasing your products. there is quiet some potential ....

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/147469/petal-showers-for-flower-fairy-outfit

Time. My job is too time consuming. The content-creating was never more than a hobby for me, so now with limited time I rather concentrate on picture-making. But the topic of the thread is poser's future, so perhaps we move back to that.

Rhia474 posted at 12:49 PM Sat, 5 October 2024 - #4490012

Ah, yes, quality of Poser promos is something I have been screaming about for probably years now. Still very rarely I see the quality the DAZ side of this site offers if looking only at the promos. 

A lot of Poser users - and vendors - are STILL afraid to use Superfly and continue stuck in Firefly, which is why a lot of the promos for Poser look like they were made 15 years ago: because they were rendered in an engine that is over 15 years old.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

Le sigh. I dearly wish we could rip off that bandaid. There should be standards for promo pictures in 2023.

As a halfway measure, maybe RO could give vendors an easy way to promote an image that used their item. You can already click on the gallery link and see what other people are doing with a product (which is great, I use it), but maybe a way for a vendor to say "this image is great and really shows off my work", highlight it, and give the artist some kind of reward (e.g., could even just be points).

But personally at this point, I basically just assume I will want to rework the shaders on the majority of what I buy. It's just part of setting up a scene.

Oh yes, I do that a lot. There are only few vendors where I know I can use shaders out of the box.

The idea with artistic images I like a lot, provided the artist agrees... a simple box next to content advisory and so on, "my work may be used by vendors as artistic reprensentation of their product" would do the trick. And it should be clearly stated what is a promo image by the vendor and what is a third party artistic render. In fact if I'm not sure wether to buy a product or not I also check the gallaries to see what others did with it and perhaps to see it in different light setups.

I also like the idea of standarts for promos... RDNA used to check the promos before releasing a product. Quite some times  I had to redo or alter mine, which was annoying, but in the end I think it helped me make better promos.

I would love to have more Sci-fi Project E content. I would to have V4 clothing or other model clothing converted to PE. I would but I don't have the time. Maybe there should be job postings for things like that. Poser has always been my go to. Daz is more like iPhone and Poser is more like android.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 2:39 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490128

Rhia474 posted at 12:49 PM Sat, 5 October 2024 - #4490012

Ah, yes, quality of Poser promos is something I have been screaming about for probably years now. Still very rarely I see the quality the DAZ side of this site offers if looking only at the promos. 

A lot of Poser users - and vendors - are STILL afraid to use Superfly and continue stuck in Firefly, which is why a lot of the promos for Poser look like they were made 15 years ago: because they were rendered in an engine that is over 15 years old.

Right now I render images using both SF and FF. And compare. Often the FF is better. The problems associated with producing great promos are 1) lighting 2) shade/shadow 3) use of color 4) camera angles, 5-the model.... I'm not convinced the SF is always better. Hair, candle light, SF probably better. Scenery, buildings, interiors, table settings... FF is very competitive and often faster. I even compared recently an interior room using SF, FF, and Daz. And the FF was better. Reflections were better, dim lighting was better, fabric textures were better. There's a certain knack to producing great promo renders. You either have it or you don't and it may not have anything to do with the render machine.    

    

It's important to consider the shaders used in the Material Room. Older models tend to render better in Firefly because they are designed for that rendering engine. If you apply the same shaders to Superfly rendering, the results may not match, and could even be worse. Therefore, making a direct comparison without any adjustments is unproductive and a waste of time. Instead, focus on learning how to manipulate and optimize the material shaders to enhance your images and promotional materials for both rendering engines.

JohnMichael posted at 6:05 PM Thu, 31 October 2024 - #4490906

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 2:39 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490128

Rhia474 posted at 12:49 PM Sat, 5 October 2024 - #4490012

Ah, yes, quality of Poser promos is something I have been screaming about for probably years now. Still very rarely I see the quality the DAZ side of this site offers if looking only at the promos. 

A lot of Poser users - and vendors - are STILL afraid to use Superfly and continue stuck in Firefly, which is why a lot of the promos for Poser look like they were made 15 years ago: because they were rendered in an engine that is over 15 years old.

Right now I render images using both SF and FF. And compare. Often the FF is better. The problems associated with producing great promos are 1) lighting 2) shade/shadow 3) use of color 4) camera angles, 5-the model.... I'm not convinced the SF is always better. Hair, candle light, SF probably better. Scenery, buildings, interiors, table settings... FF is very competitive and often faster. I even compared recently an interior room using SF, FF, and Daz. And the FF was better. Reflections were better, dim lighting was better, fabric textures were better. There's a certain knack to producing great promo renders. You either have it or you don't and it may not have anything to do with the render machine.    

    

Sure have to agree, Doing my self many promo Images every day having nothing to do with the render engine, a car can even have the best results rendering with the poser 4 engine. Superfly is still having massive issues with the Normal maps or I just can't handle these forcing to use bump maps, in certain cases it often renders just flat. When looking at older promos that were made with Firefly from RDNA you get the impression of a time travel back to the roots comparing renders made with Superfly. Naturally all depends if the user even qualifies to make any render  no matter what engine he is using. Considering if you want to match a FF render with a SF then it takes you allot of hour's setting up all the stuff to even come close to it for SF in addition of a good light setup with Props , this sure can take the fun of making your art. It is also just a question of preferences and style.

Versum posted at 8:49 PM Thu, 31 October 2024 - #4490910

JohnMichael posted at 6:05 PM Thu, 31 October 2024 - #4490906

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 2:39 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490128

Rhia474 posted at 12:49 PM Sat, 5 October 2024 - #4490012

Ah, yes, quality of Poser promos is something I have been screaming about for probably years now. Still very rarely I see the quality the DAZ side of this site offers if looking only at the promos. 

A lot of Poser users - and vendors - are STILL afraid to use Superfly and continue stuck in Firefly, which is why a lot of the promos for Poser look like they were made 15 years ago: because they were rendered in an engine that is over 15 years old.

Right now I render images using both SF and FF. And compare. Often the FF is better. The problems associated with producing great promos are 1) lighting 2) shade/shadow 3) use of color 4) camera angles, 5-the model.... I'm not convinced the SF is always better. Hair, candle light, SF probably better. Scenery, buildings, interiors, table settings... FF is very competitive and often faster. I even compared recently an interior room using SF, FF, and Daz. And the FF was better. Reflections were better, dim lighting was better, fabric textures were better. There's a certain knack to producing great promo renders. You either have it or you don't and it may not have anything to do with the render machine.    

    

Sure have to agree, Doing my self many promo Images every day having nothing to do with the render engine, a car can even have the best results rendering with the poser 4 engine. Superfly is still having massive issues with the Normal maps or I just can't handle these forcing to use bump maps, in certain cases it often renders just flat. When looking at older promos that were made with Firefly from RDNA you get the impression of a time travel back to the roots comparing renders made with Superfly. Naturally all depends if the user even qualifies to make any render  no matter what engine he is using. Considering if you want to match a FF render with a SF then it takes you allot of hour's setting up all the stuff to even come close to it for SF in addition of a good light setup with Props , this sure can take the fun of making your art. It is also just a question of preferences and style.

JohnMichael posted at 11:06 AM Fri, 1 November 2024 - #4490916

Versum posted at 8:49 PM Thu, 31 October 2024 - #4490910

JohnMichael posted at 6:05 PM Thu, 31 October 2024 - #4490906

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 2:39 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490128

Rhia474 posted at 12:49 PM Sat, 5 October 2024 - #4490012

Ah, yes, quality of Poser promos is something I have been screaming about for probably years now. Still very rarely I see the quality the DAZ side of this site offers if looking only at the promos. 

A lot of Poser users - and vendors - are STILL afraid to use Superfly and continue stuck in Firefly, which is why a lot of the promos for Poser look like they were made 15 years ago: because they were rendered in an engine that is over 15 years old.

Right now I render images using both SF and FF. And compare. Often the FF is better. The problems associated with producing great promos are 1) lighting 2) shade/shadow 3) use of color 4) camera angles, 5-the model.... I'm not convinced the SF is always better. Hair, candle light, SF probably better. Scenery, buildings, interiors, table settings... FF is very competitive and often faster. I even compared recently an interior room using SF, FF, and Daz. And the FF was better. Reflections were better, dim lighting was better, fabric textures were better. There's a certain knack to producing great promo renders. You either have it or you don't and it may not have anything to do with the render machine.    

    

Sure have to agree, Doing my self many promo Images every day having nothing to do with the render engine, a car can even have the best results rendering with the poser 4 engine. Superfly is still having massive issues with the Normal maps or I just can't handle these forcing to use bump maps, in certain cases it often renders just flat. When looking at older promos that were made with Firefly from RDNA you get the impression of a time travel back to the roots comparing renders made with Superfly. Naturally all depends if the user even qualifies to make any render  no matter what engine he is using. Considering if you want to match a FF render with a SF then it takes you allot of hour's setting up all the stuff to even come close to it for SF in addition of a good light setup with Props , this sure can take the fun of making your art. It is also just a question of preferences and style.

Hi. This is a render using P12 FireFly that I did over a year ago. I wasn't able to get the same quality with SF. I have not tried SF from P13 yet using the same scene. I did compare it to a DAZ similar scene and they were about the same.

I'm trying to figure out how to update my P13 to the current version. I know there is an update out there someplace. 

Hava g8 day. 

 

For updates, visit Posersoftware.com.

When transitioning from Firefly to Superfly rendering, shader refinements are necessary, particularly for older content. As previously stated, comparing the render engines without adjusting the shaders will not yield comparable images.

hborre posted at 7:03 PM Thu, 31 October 2024 - #4490907

It's important to consider the shaders used in the Material Room. Older models tend to render better in Firefly because they are designed for that rendering engine. If you apply the same shaders to Superfly rendering, the results may not match, and could even be worse. Therefore, making a direct comparison without any adjustments is unproductive and a waste of time. Instead, focus on learning how to manipulate and optimize the material shaders to enhance your images and promotional materials for both rendering engines.

Ya, I do that most of the time and I also compare DAZ3D renders that were done by the vender.   

For Firefly, that does look great. When we are aware of Firefly's limitations.

For today's standards of 3d, though, the skin looks too waxy, the shadows look too black, and the general lighting looks not-lifelike. It's Firefly limitations. It's like comparing the image quality of Toy Story 1 and Moana. Both look great if you think of the artistic work behind them, but of course Moana looks more real and alive.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

Asking for 100$+ every year for this program with minimal additions and fixes will bury it more and more every day. Content creators need to find buyers who will need to buy the program first. As I heard, there is only one developer left to work on poser. It could be false but I will believe it as I see the progress. 

At an age we got all the game engines and 3D programs for free, making your own program which got minimal support/updates/new stuff "paid" is just the worst marketing you can do. Adobe can do that, but poser can't. This is milking a cow corpse, which will not work as we see. 

I don't count that we don't have a proper tutorial about animating. I am animating for 20 years with poser and I still did not see any animating tutorial more than waving hands sinse. 

Furthermore, I still use V4, and I will use her forever, as there is no content for the new models.

I am using Poser 11, as it's nearly rock solid for animating as it just does not crash at all with animate window. Poser 11+ and 12 crashes when you just skip frames a bit faster.

In the end, there is exactly no reason to get Poser if you already use it for 20 years and too old and lazy to learn Blender even Daz. 

Blender is not the solution for everyone. Don't assume those who don't use it are too old and lazy to leran it.  Tried it and hated it. I'll stick with Modo or Cinema 4D.

drages posted at 5:31 AM Thu, 7 November 2024 - #4491065

I am using Poser 11, as it's nearly rock solid for animating as it just does not crash at all with animate window. Poser 11+ and 12 crashes when you just skip frames a bit faster.

In the end, there is exactly no reason to get Poser if you already use it for 20 years and too old and lazy to learn Blender even Daz. 

Way to be condescending and losing your audience who otherwise may have agreed with some of your points like the utter and perplexing lack of updated tutorials. Ageism never looks well when used in an argument.

I'm certainly not too old and lazy for DAZ. And sometimes I do envy them their content. But, would I swich now, I'd rather not calculate how much money I spent on content I'll never use again, and how much I'd  need to spend to have the choice of content I now have for poser available for DAZ. Even not considering content, as I understand, that although DAZ itself is free there are quite some (more or less) necessary addons that are not. To swich programs now is not an option financially. And there may be many more valid reasons besides "being old and lazy".

drages posted at 5:31 AM Thu, 7 November 2024 - #4491065

In the end, there is exactly no reason to get Poser if you already use it for 20 years and too old and lazy to learn Blender even Daz. 

Honest question.

What version of Poser do you use?

---

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

I've decided to pretend that Poser 12 and 13 don't exist, just like Ghostbusters 3 or the final trilogy of SW.

It almost feels like Poser has gone woke, completely ignoring its original audience.

And thus, turned completely insignificant now.

Like Hollywood.

;-)

Anyway, Poser 11 still serves me well.

Guess I prefer waxy Firefly skin over a render engine that can't even do displacement properly.

And if you don't like to fix grainyness with a blur filter, isn't even that fast at all.

(That's the original DAZ GIRL with V3UV mapping, btw)

*

I also enjoy the immediate What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get functionality of the morphbrush.

So far Poser's habit to cut a mesh into separate actors and weld it back together has never prevented me from doing with my figures exactly what I wanted to do:

If the morphbrush doesn't care about the way Poser handles its meshes, why should I?

*

No, I don't think Poser has a (commercial) future anymore and I don't see any tendency of Poser 14 to change that outlook.

Dawn and La Femme as well as La Homme are proof that the Poser Team has learned nothing from their past failures or the honest feedback that has been given again and again.

Instead they double down and blame others.

Just like Hollywood.

:-P

*

But that's not my problem anymore.

As long as I have a working copy of Poser 11 and a machine to run it on, I'm golden.

And that, to me, is all what matters.

:-)

JoePublic posted at 10:05 AM Fri, 8 November 2024 - #4491126

It almost feels like Poser has gone woke

This "argument" is the fastest way to make me stop reading everything the person says after. Kinda hard to read anything after my eyeballs have revolved back into my skull out of sheer exhasperation.

- - - - - - 

Feel free to call me Ohki!

Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.

Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.

I guess for those that don't use Superfly P11 is perfectly fine.... 

For those that have gpu hardware that doesn't work in P11, P11 it isn't an option if they want to use Superfly at any speed other than crawling on a cpu or older gpu that is supported in P11..... Or if they want to use the new version of Superfly, which is way faster than the version in P11.............

Rtx 2000 series is the newest GPU you can use with P11.  By todays standards, all of those 2000 cards are very slow....

I still have a 2000 series in my machine, just for P11 (script reasons). I have 3 gpus atm.

My machine has 20 cpu cores, I use P13 with superfly running on a 4070ti, and Firefly is so slow compared to gpu rendering I don't use it much anymore. 

Just the difference in node setup is reason alone why I don't use it... You need a massive amount of nodes to do anything in Firefly that is comparable to Superfly.

My GPU is fast enough to do renders in about 5 min.

Here is an example. Try to do that in 5 minutes with Firefly, it wont have finished the IDL pass in 10.

Firefly would take 30 minutes or more to do a render like that with 20 cpu threads working on it... I know that because that is what I have, a 13th gen I5, with 20 threads.

My factory overclock 4070ti does superfly renders very fast. And has enough memory to subdivide the meshes to death for displacement and detail.

I have HD morphs at level 3 in some of my personal things, simply because I have the memory to do so, in both the cpu and gpu.

Most path tracers don't support micro poly displacement... That is nothing new, Monte Carlo engines almost always have micro poly displacement... Superfly supports displacement, but not micro displacement.. Subdivide it and be done with it... That is exactly what micro poly displacement does, it subdivides areas that need more mesh resolution. The only difference in Superfly, is that you do the entire mesh manually.... So basically the only real differences are complaining about the manual step to do so, and the hardware needed to do so....

To state that Poser isn't going to have a future year after year, stating the same reasons year after year, is a bit silly to me...

The vast majority of people that do so rarely use any of the newer features, and could still be using P6, literally.....

Those that state that always have multiple reasons to stay with an older version.... Which is fine, stay with it....

Until I can get results like above in a few minutes, Firefly is not going to be used much by me.

I am not alone in that either......

The only thing done to the image above after P13 rendered it, is a color filter. Yes, it used PostFX in Poser too...

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@ JoePublic posted at 10:05 AM Fri, 8 November 2024 - #4491126

Woke (wōk) adjective: "Aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues." - Merriam-Webster

So yes, we try really hard to be "woke" when it comes to the Poserverse. When we get feed back, complaints, rants or the rare constructive criticism the Poser team always takes it seriously. I never quite understood why situational awareness is considered a bad thing.

Let's unpack the point. If Poser still serves you even if it's Poser 1, good. That's what it's supposed to do. Nowhere in the click-wrap license did you agree to sell any organs, be stitched together as a human centipede or that you were compelled to buy the next release of Poser. The fact that FireFly fits your needs is definitely acknowledged. FireFly isn't going away. FireFly produces render styles SuperFly can't. But, when I want a photo-real render and I don't want to wait days for it. The P13 SuperFly is literally 40 times faster than it was in P11. That's not 40%, 40 times faster. Renders that took hours now take minutes.

But, without users who support future developments there really will be no future. For those who support a future with Poser, we really appreciate and thank you for believing in the Poserverse.

P.S. The noise reduction in P12 and P13 is not a blur filter. It's Intel Open Image Denoise, an AI based noise removal: https://www.openimagedenoise.org/

There were offers back in 2019 to Improve Figure creations, they could of been far advanced to any released until now, even advanced to the ones in DS, but Poserverse is stuck in a old system, even that SM tried to offer the support for advanced skinning. Rather to listen and be attentive there was ignorance all the way, there was 0 interest in growing. Either it was or is something no one ever wanted or just are not capable of. I have no clue! But instead of listening you kicked these out of the community including all the purchases. Why ? because you thought that a little group would be the messiah of poser with La Femme. It is very disappointing as Poser would of had a chance, and even a good one. 

 

Sure I continue to support Poser no matter what, you had the chance to grow , you had the chance to learn new techniques, there were offers . but you have chosen the  ignorant way by banning it . Meanwhile the technology expands all the way into DS ( Multi compatible Skinning ) and no it does not stop there with this is grows into every possible application without any loss of Integrity in a fragment of time. 

It does not have to be a Creature like in the Image ( That is just Me ), it can be anything you can imagine, any high end Doll if you wish , and yes poser is the bridge because it carries features you are not even aware of . 

I read these forums allot, and I have to say there are some that still try to communicate there knowledge, even if only a few that are left , there is just a little barrier of understanding as things might be difficult to explain for an artist.  But they tell you how it works, the main result is that there is a little group in here that just does not want to accept it , rather stick on old methods, flame the ones who could bring improvements and new features, cause them to go, or even to ban!  So much for listening! 

Yes Poser renders Faster, yes you made some Improvements, but you have forgotten that you need creators with new technologies to use your features, this is the point where you get stuck . La femme , Dawn , are still based on the old technology so what do you expect ?  You could of done skinning in a fragment of time but you choose the way of years, you do not want to grow , as you seem to be stuck in a soap bubble .

It does not mean that developers are not willing to bring the new , the better, the faster, it means that you just were listening to the wrong group with a big attention disorder stuck in the old way of creation. 

You would of been at a point meanwhile where you could of been the one who brings models into Poser into DS without any big effort and via versa. But sure not with the La femme technology. You were on the right track with Unimesh but I guess there were some slight problems :)

Yes poser has allot of potential, from my experience you could even of made DS dependent on it, because of the fact that id does carry the technology to do so. You just do not want to see, or you just do not want to know.  You might have to look a litte into another direction rather then to get distracted by a group that seems to be stuck, as these will not bring you any success.

"Poser has gone woke." What does that even mean? Should it be eating the cats and dogs (or some crazy thing like that)? Hehehehe...

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W11,Intel i9-14900KF @ 3.20GHz, 64.0 GB RAM, 64-bit, GeForce GTX 4070 Ti SUPER, 16GB. 

Old lady hobbyist.

All visual art or fiction is "playing with dolls."

nerd posted at 2:45 PM Fri, 8 November 2024 - #4491146

@ JoePublic posted at 10:05 AM Fri, 8 November 2024 - #4491126

P.S. The noise reduction in P12 and P13 is not a blur filter. It's Intel Open Image Denoise, an AI based noise removal: https://www.openimagedenoise.org/

Might be the reason why the render from shvrdavid gives the impression that it has gone through a AI Render for correction purpose, it has the typical Eye error distortion that older AI Generators cause, my first impression was that it has gone through AI also because the hands are hidden, so it might just be due the AI based noise removal !? 

You assume a lot.

It is UV distortion from using a really small hand drawn texture, and eyes that have to be dilatated a lot to get to the pupil that far open.

Did you think I was going to use an 8k texture on the eyes to get a fast render? 256x256 causes issues with those eyes, for sure....

The skin is done exactly the same way... You probably didn't notice that thou. Most of them are 512x512, except the normal map, which is 4k.

You don't want or need big textures to get that type of skin, and they eyes obviously show issues when one pixel off difference in UV layout changes it massively.

I used bigger iris textures after that, like this.... They are from one of my retail characters, and obviously don't distort..... The skin is still 512x512 with 4k normals, painted in 3DCoatTextura.

 

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Can confirm hands are just fine with Poser's built in denoiser postworker:

Closeup, in case there is doubt (denoised at 1.000):

(and yes, that's a Superfly render, both of them)

Versum posted at 5:51 PM Fri, 8 November 2024 - #4491160

nerd posted at 2:45 PM Fri, 8 November 2024 - #4491146

@ JoePublic posted at 10:05 AM Fri, 8 November 2024 - #4491126

P.S. The noise reduction in P12 and P13 is not a blur filter. It's Intel Open Image Denoise, an AI based noise removal: https://www.openimagedenoise.org/

Might be the reason why the render from shvrdavid gives the impression that it has gone through a AI Render for correction purpose, it has the typical Eye error distortion that older AI Generators cause, my first impression was that it has gone through AI also because the hands are hidden, so it might just be due the AI based noise removal !? 

It's not that kind of AI. It's not going to make your figures grow 6 fingers or extra eyeballs. (Nor will it possess your programmable thermostat.) It only works on the inherent noise created by ray tracers. It's trained specifically to detect that noise and correct it.

ok Understand, some sort of Denoiser like Topaz is using 

It was not meant to criticize the render from shvrdavid it was a Impression caused from the Irregular Iris. Eyes are mostly the first thing you are looking at on portraits

   

Woke, as in catering to the whims of a small , but loud minority, without regard to reality or the greater good.

Basically:

Poser was always aimed at hobbyists, not professionals.

It was most popular when it encouraged tinkering and broad participation.

Now even the python scripts are decrypted. (And phone home)

Figures are not user friendly. Overly "clever" rigging disencourages do-it-yourself modifications without even resulting in superior bends.

All those extra bones add to memory consumption and the more complicated a cr2, the more likely something will fail.

When I look at Superfly renders, I see no consistency. Some turn out quite nice, like shvrdavid's second render, but many don't.

It seems that every texture change, every change of light needs a different approach to shader construction.

Firefly is way more stable IMO.

I already mentioned the lack of displacement. Combined with the lack of proper edgelooping in current Poser figures, that means that any bodydetail, even down to minute details, has to be created via subdivision.

That is quite taxing on your average customers' laptop.

Why are you so eager to meet "CGI industry" standards?

in my opinion a figure like Michael 2 is the most "easy to use" and "Bang for the buck" Poser figure ever made.

Just 31.000 polygons and see how much detail you can squeeze out of him:

Yes, ALL of these three figures are based on the Michael 2 mesh!

First one is just a bit of dial spinning and scaling. Third one is a Rikishi clone I made with the Morphbrush.

And the lady in the middle is the original Aiko, based on Stephanie 1, which was created using Michael's mesh.

(Well, I guess men DO make better females after all)  ;-P

And there is no subdivision or displacement going on here.

So if I wanted, I could up the level of detail considerably, while still getting better performance than those "industry standard" Poser figures.

And that mesh works extremely well with weightmapping and the MorphBrush.

*

So this is what I'm fighting for since the day I noticed that DAZ meshes started to have Studio only features.

Our very own "as complicated as necessary but as simple as possible" hobbyist-friendly allrounder mesh, that brings the FUN back into Poser.

*

But as the saying goes: "You can lead a horse to water..."

*

And maybe there IS a different explanation for the fact that 99% of the items in the Rendo Marketplace are not Poser assets anymore.

Maybe it's because everyone just hates Poser so they are blind for all the wonderful things you guys did with in the past.

And it has nothing to do with strategic decisions like disabling thousands of hours worth of Python scripting.

Or implementing a renderer not even the experts seem to be able to properly understand.

Or creating Z-brush friendly figures that are so appaling that no professional CGI artist feels the impulse to actually support them.

Nope, can't be.

Must be totally something else.

:-)

This thread is starting to spin its wheels and rehash old arguments rather than being helpful so I'm locking it before the fights that will inevitably follow start.

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