Attached Link: http://www.chud.com/board/ubbhtml/Forum1/HTML/003303.html

hmmmm We need this guy to do figures for poser five.

I would say its time to expect this level of detail for poser 5

I think these figures are not morphed versions of mike and vicky

Any way you cut it this is the one. I couldn't expect this level of detail but I'll take if I can get it. He's the man! If his over all anatomy is of equal accuracy it would be nuts to say no. These characters are all equally, fit attractive, accurate, and Properly proportioned! :)

I liked this one too:)

And this one:)

poser 5 please please please:)

Dream on. These figures are created with high end packages like Alias/Wavefront's Maya costing thousands of dollars and rendered and animated on renderfarm workstations adding another few tens of thousands of dollars.

Whos to say DAZ OR CURIOUS LABS does not use that software, Better yet who is to say they can not work out a deal with this guy or someone with as much modeling talent?

The Modeling and texturing in Final Fantasy is exquisite. Maya may have been used to do this but you don't need a renderfarm to make these models and render them as stills. Lower end graphics apps can do just as well. Even poor old Poser4 can come pretty close. The main difference is in the eyes and in animation the hair. The hair here is most probably not a model but a partical system. Shag hair on 3ds Max as example. The image here is of kane by Syyd Raven. A great texture on the Michael model with great morphs can work wonders. Good lighting helps too.

I do not think these figures are that far beyond Mike and Vicky, I think they are only one step up in resolution from the looks of it, definitly around the eyes, seems they beat DAZ'S crows feet problems too lol. I hope the next set of figures have higher res bodies and heads and that the program can take advantage of some of the new gigabyte chips that are popping up in stores, Yes higher res heads at least, I can live with the Vicky and Mike bodies, But high res heads like this would really be awesome. Imagine the possibilities.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=59359&Start=1&Sectionid=0&Form.Search=asia

Well, the modelling is certainly first rate but it is the textures that make it rock. Remember, we arent looking to generate animations. Max is a fiarly affordable tool for example and can certainly do renders of that quality. Besides, we can get close now...

Who knows maybe they used organica, Organica is capable of this. Organica is a small but very poweferful metaball program that can model mesh objects on this level.

First of all, you have to define what exactly you want to do and what your expectations are realistically. If all you want is to create still images that look like the graphic illustrations on a bookcover or a magazine, then I agree that Vicki and Mike, a good set of textures and Photoshop will fill the bill nicely. However, if you want to create photorealistic images that fool the viewer, then you either have to be a master at Photoshop or need a more expensive 3D software like 3DMax, Lightwave or Cinema 4D capable of high quality rendering of complex lights and shadows and global illumination. If you want to do serious character animation, then you have no choice but to go for high end software packages like the above or Softimage or Maya, in which case you'll need some serious hardware, RAM and disk space. Sure, Daz could create a high resolution model like those depicted in Final Fantasy, but will people here be willing to pay the price in terms of hard disk space and RAM required to load these models and their textures? People already complain about Victoria and Michael, and they have nowhere near the polygon resolution of the models used above or in movies like Shrek. How will Daz even recoup their investment if such is the case? The best that Curious Labs can do with Poser is to continue to provide ways to link Poser with high end 3D packages such as what they've done with 3DMax and lightwave to allow Poser users who want to go the extra mile at photorealism to utilize the animation and rendering capabilities of those packages.

Sorry, I disagree. We've already seen some frighteningly realistic textures come out of Renderosity, and what we have in the images above is simply a matter of having the right wrap. Yes, higher polygon count would be nice, but has anyone taken a look at Poser 1 lately? The polygon count continues steadfastly to grow, and there's no reason to think it can't approach the look of these images.

If Poser 5 looked like that, how would Daz ever sell Mike and Vicky?

LOL, we're not a miilion miles off now - for software that costs not much more than a small pig.

Well, from what I have seen in a "Making of Final Fantasy", the models resolution isn't very much higher than the DAZ-Models. There are a few more polys around the eyes, mouth and ear areas but thats all. Most of the difference is an extremely high-resolution texture and most of all bump-mapping, a map for skin-shinyness and of course: A very expensive radiosity-rendersystem with a render-plant the size of a small appartment building. Of course, if the pricetag on Poser 5 would go a bit up - let's say, around 20.000 Dollars, you could actually expect to see such models - of course you would have to pay for the render-plant too, which would be another 5.000.000,- Dollars. Poser is a very powerful application the way it is at the moment. PPP is a very good way of breaking into the "Professional Market" if you consider, that a big advantage of Poser is it's enormous database of characters and it's community that no other character-programm will be able to offer. But you can't expect Poser to do things, that an application of this pricerange could not possibly do (Like Radiosity-Rendering). Joerg

Poser is weak in hair and eyes right now compared to the big systems - the rendering engine is just a tad weak. No reflections? Sheesh :) And it is short a few materials options (layered textures) and so on. But Poser is NOT a final rendering engine for many users - it is a pose/composition tool that we then pull into Max or whatever. Poser->Max can do very high level work.

PJF, all that shows is that you're skillful with Photoshop or whatever image editor you use. Frankly, the hair looks painted on and doesn't even come anywhere close to the (probably) particle based hair used in the Final Fantasy figures or Princess Fiona in Shrek. It seems that some people here are confusing the requirements of still images versus animation and what Poser is realistically capable of. Poser is terrible at realistic lights, shadows, and rendering as well as animation; and most of the images rendered within Poser I've seen in the gallery here claimed by their creators to be photorealistic really are not and have an artificial or cartoonish look to them. Those artists using other packages like Lightwave 6.5 or Cinema 4D v7 with their area lights and shadows and global illumination capabilities to render Poser figures have far better luck at fooling the eye of the viewer (check out their galleries); but then their $2500 cost or more is beyond what most people here can afford. I also doubt many people here will have the patience to wait for a photorealistic radiosity image to render. Rather than have everyone pay the increased cost of adding those features into Poser, I think Curious Labs is wise at allowing those individuals with access to those higher end 3D apps to interface with Poser so that they can use their specialized rendering capabilities instead. If you want seriously realistic animation, then the requirements on human models increases because now you need extra polygons and vertices just to mimic muscle movements realistically, and you will need cloth physics, soft body dynamics and other features available only as expensive plug-ins to these midrange 3D apps or built-in features in Maya, Houdini or Softimage. While I understand your enthusiasm for Poser (I had the same dreams of creating the next Toy Story when I first started), you really should temper it with a sober look at what it is really useful for as soulhuntre said: a pose/composition tool.

So how many Polygons does Vicky 2 have ??? How many Polygons do the Final Fantasy models have ??

So where do I buy Renderplant and Mia?

ack! i would give my leg for Miya!! sigh...oh well...cant have everything..*even though it would be nice ;) *

You don;'t >need< Mia. MAX is a great renderer. For that matter, the Radiosity engine in Truespace is really good - really, relaly good. No onw here is claiming Poser could ANIMATE characters like that - however there is no reason why we can't come very close for a reasonable amount of money for stills :)

You don;'t >need< Mia. MAX is a great renderer. For that matter, the Radiosity engine in Truespace is really good - really, relaly good. No onw here is claiming Poser could ANIMATE characters like that - however there is no reason why we can't come very close for a reasonable amount of money for stills :)

You don;'t >need< Mia. MAX is a great renderer. For that matter, the Radiosity engine in Truespace is really good - really, relaly good. No onw here is claiming Poser could ANIMATE characters like that - however there is no reason why we can't come very close for a reasonable amount of money for stills :)

With a lot of postwork with Photoshop, yes, you can come close to photorealism, especially if you're great with compositing. I've seen good work done even with P4 figures. However, if one expects to do photorealistic work with Poser alone and the tools it has, then your expectations are unrealistically high.

I rendered this image in Poser 4 with NO POSTWORK. Keep in mind that the Final Fantasy promo images are just that -- the entire film isnt that high quality, just the close-ups and the promo shots. The actual animated sequences are slightly lower res. You can get pretty close to that quality in Poser4 (for stills), and keep in mind that this is with an affordable program and models. The home or small business user wouldnt be able to afford Softimage or Maya, Renderman and a renderfarm of 100 computers.

Attached Link: http://www.cgchannel.com/subpage.php?incx=news_010122_renemorel.html&id=499

Your not going to get some effects in Final Fantasy, because many of the Maya Plugins were custom made, configured, and scripted only to Final Fantasy productions. The hair for instance was created from a highly custom shag plugin. If your interested don't forget to pick up the book "The making of Final Fantasy Spirits Within", it will most likely detail most of the production process. I also suggest going here http://www.cgchannel.com/subpage.php?incx=news_010122_renemorel.html&id=499 Rene was part of a whole slew of texture artist. Check out his site, he is like one of the best texturer in the world, literally. Remember its not just the program. Its the texturing that can make or break a 3D Animation. Check out Amazon Soul too, a online 3D story

they fogot this pic......

This is a rendering of my corleone character from KANE, the only post render was to change the color a little...I think it comes pretty close, and the DAZ models already have pretty high resolution heads....I think Poser has some tremendous capabilities to render out decent images of skins, skins are made by someone not in Poser, but using a UV Map, and a good postwork program like Photoshop, some high res digital photography with good postwork body technique, and something like Deep Paint. There are marked differences, definitely, especially around the eye area, and the eyeball itself, but Poser comes damned close. What we need in Poser 5 is models with better eyes, and a hair particle generator. Syyd

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/photos/GalleryImage52857.jpg

Here is my shot at messing with it. This is just rendered in poser with no post work but think it shows someting of what this hobby program can do.

The devil is in the details. On one hand you can say Poser 4 isn't that far off, but on the other, it really is. The software used for Final Fantasy is largely propriatary, and the rest is extreme high end. There are diminishing returns, especially now-a-days, when reaching for the high end (meaning as you continually throw more money and time and resources at a CGI project, each addition result in less and less improvements). Poser does do a great job, especially now Daz has provided higher polygonal models, but it still can't really touch these systems. Not to mention the incredible ability of this software to animate these characters. That's where it even gets to be more amazing. The way it handles organic material and random movement (hair for instance) is fantastic (although commonplace I'm sure in a few years). And you're wrong if you think that those shots from Final Fantasy are high resolution shots just from promos. These are just 72dpi shots, relatively small. Film renders are done at about 3000x2000. I mean, anyone that is saying Poser comes close, really doesn't know what they are talking about. Don't get me wrong, I dig Poser, but this is a different league. For now. I'm sure Poser 7 or so will do all this, but then again movies and other high end entertainment will be well past this point also.

sigh...we just CANT win can we?!!? anyway..i can sell a horse and get money for it, try it out, see if it is worth buying, then inform you guys/gals...well if i EVER get it...lol

the picter second from the top HE HAS THE HAIR I WANT!! lol...help me?

Looking at all the Poser renders vs. Final Fantasy renders. I think the difference is in the look and feel. Don't get me wrong, there is some beautiful work above. But when I look at the Final Fantasy characters they look and feel real even in "natural light", they don't look 3D as you would expect. They look natural. Look at the blemishs on the face, imperfections, the eyes, pores, the skin coloring. They have life. I love Poser, but Poser is too perfect, too symmetrical. That is one thing I hope Poser 5 will have. The ability to make imperfect characters. If you truly want to be a modeller and texturer. You have to know when to bring out those imperfections/differences to make the character believeable. For example the woman Aika (I forgot her name)? Her nose is not perfect, its natural... You can tell that they had to bone out each one of these characters separately, no using the same character structure... Anyway I can't wait until the movie :)

ahhh i want to see the movie so bad!! i am obsessed with 3-d animation...even though i would brather draw well then have poser and sux at it...lol but yes i agree with you, imperfections are what make the character, and it lookd more REALISTIC, we want it to look like it could just jump out of your pc/mac, and shake your hand..lol....i hope poser 5 is closer to detail as Miya is, it doen't have to be JUST LIKE IT, but close is good enoph 4 me! ;)

see the third pic from the top too? i want that hair for my character...that buzzed look... ;)

Well intercept, I happen to disagree :-), I do know Poser, very well indeed, and to further clarify this, let me say that in reference to high resolution, we are referring to the geometries of the model, not the resolution size of the rendered image. And while I agree this is in a different league, we are living proof of poser's capabilities to run pretty danged close. What I do find exciting about Final Fantasy, is that it makes the realm of possibility exist within our very own grasp. To me the difference is more in the model than anything, and in very specific areas on the models, I notice a vast difference in the eyes, around the eyes and the nose. As far as body texture goes, their neck is much tighter as well. But we are running a valiant and very close second. Here's another one I did, and this is very "Skin"....and while we are not standing here saying we are final fantasy, we are saying we aspire to and are doing a fine job, all of us on down the line from CuriousLabs to Daz, to the mappers of the world, and as we grow, so will Poser.

uh.... where's the bodies?

Come on Bloodsong, you do the best bods around LOL

Nice work Ghost of MacBeth......and PJF and Blackhearted...to be commended.

hey i have to admit poser has gone far, and ppl have used it to build master pieces!...but i do want to wait till 5 comes out, or till it reaches its limit, i can wait, all i have to do is look at all the art you've done, and day dream of what i will make when i buy poser! anywho, i love all of your guys/gals work, and hope that one day, poser will come out with an extreme outcome! till then KEEP ON DOING WHAT YOU DO BEST!.. hope i made a LITTLE sence..lol, CD-RW;)

rtamesis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PJF, all that shows is that you're skillful with Photoshop or whatever image editor you use. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Why thank you for the compliment. However, I can't take any credit for image editing skills, for the post work was minimal on that image. The hair was 'painted on'. It was painted onto a texture map of a DAZ hair by Kozaburo. The figure was rendered in Bryce, and the whole thing was a quick throw together (but not a quick render ;-)) using an established light setup. I did it some time ago for a thread similar to this at 3DGladiators. I would never claim that Poser is capable of ever being a suitable tool for making a film like Final Fantasy. But I will claim that Poser, a very cheap consumer app, is capable of stunning results in the right hands, and stands up well against applications costing tens of thousands. I might have a go at a closer emulation of those Final Fantasy images, if I can be arsed.

I Hope Poser never gets this good because if it did then what will Maya be doing? Better to just export it to the rendering team or to create a hybrid of the two. PosARA will be one super application with Vicky 3 standard. (All this detail and tying to get motion picture film to show it, I bet it turns out to be the worst film ever made.)

ya...miyas looks and poser's cost..lol;)

I think another key to those FFantasy pics is RADIOSITY lighting and rendering.(Soulhuntre you said that right?) Yeah, RADIOSITY lighting solutions in POSER 5.

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Sydd, I don't disagree that you know Poser. I was referring to knowing 3D in general. I am not an expert at all of them, but I am familiar with Lightwave, Maya, SoftImage, and Poser (as well as a few others). By watching the trailer for Final Fantasy, anyone that knows 3D immediately recognizes that the creators of Final Fantasy are using software and equipment many notches above Poser. Your still photos hide Poser defects in shadows and poses, and post work. Not to mention it's a still. To animate, to breath some life into a 3D character is truly what separates the high end systems from Poser. And when I was referring to the resolution, no, I did mean the resolution of the images, not the polygons. Polygons are independent of resolution. Someone earlier made a comment that the Final Fantasy faces were high resolution and that the movie would be lower resolution. The exact opposite is true. These images are just low res 72 dpi images, the movie will be dealing with much higher resolutions. The differences I'm talking about here are equivalent to say a college painter being compared to a master. Poser just doesn't have the toolset.

Hi Intercept :-) The resolution of a model is defined by how many polygons/vertices it contains, for example, if the lips on a model contain 50 polygons in the geometry, they will be low resolution lips. But, if they contain 4 times that amount they will be 4 times higher resolution, thus, smoother and not as blocky. They will also be easier to morph into facial expression and phonemes. Again for example, load up any game on your computer that contains 3d modelled figures, have you ever noticed how blocky they are? This is called low resolution geometries, the heads on both Michael and Victoria by DAZ3d, are high resolution geometries or close enough. You could subdivide the geometries further thus doubling the resolution that they are at the moment, and then elminating 99% of the lower resolution "parts" of the models, such as the perimeter of the head and the chin, etc. These examples have very little postwork, as far as hiding "defects", I dont see that Im hiding anything here at all, it is obvious what the limitations are for all of us, we are not hiding anything, these are both in your face head portraits. One is on a plain black background, with the right side of the face shadowed, for effect, not to hide defects, the other with a background and shadowing against it, actually hiding a portion of the face in shadow that has some very realistic skin on it, this is good lighting skills, not hiding defects, done for artistic purposes. I agree about the equipment used to produce the movie, but I thought this thread referring to the quality of models requested for Poser Version 5, not how to make animations in Poser that look like they were made in Maya. Whether you agree or not about what Poser can do, we are living proof that the maps are top quality and they work well at breathing life into the top quality models, in what is considered a "low end" program. Debate is healthy LOL.

Hey Sydd. Let me preface what I'm saying that I really like a lot of your 3D work. I've always been impressed by people that can wring as much as possible out of an app. I think we are talking about the same thing on resolution but because of the posting, rather than talking, we're missing each other's meaning. You can take a low resolution model and render it to a high resolution image, it will be very sharp, but not have smooth curves. Conversely, you can take a high polygonal model and render it to lower resolution output. Resolution and polygons aren't the same, but are usually related because it usually just doesn't make sense to do a high resolution render of a low polygonal curving model. Again, there are some things I really like about Poser, and I've used it for a few projects. And I am going to soon start a project where I am going to for the first time import Poser objects and scenes into Lightwave and see what I can do with the improved render engine. Hopefully it works out since I am going to spending time and money on a project I hope to get accepted at film and animation festivals. The hook being that one person (me) is doing the writing, directing, CGI, and post work. I won't be able to do it without Poser, but on the flip side, I despise Poser's render engine. It's doing beta work on this project that I can especially appreciate the work being done on Final Fantasy, in particular the characters, hair, and clothing. The hair and clothing are especially impressive, and I understand all that is their proprietary software. The motions of the characters are likewise impressive, but I'm thinking a lot of it is motion capture based. But I'm sure within less time than we would expect (or maybe not) we will be able to do the same on our home computers. I still remember Poser 1, and I think that came out, what 5 or 6 years ago? So if it isn't Poser, something is always going to keep pushing our envelope. The same is true with the movies. 5 or 6 years from now Hollywood will look back at Final Fantasy as a quaint first try at an all CGI realistic movie. So I say let's keep pushing the envelope, but come on, we have to give these guys their dues for making Final Fantasy look so fantastic. They are some of the best of the best, and to compare their work to Poser is sort of like comparing the Seattle Mariners to a high school baseball team...sure, their both playing baseball... Thanks for your comments Sydd, I definitely see your points and agree with them largely. Final Fantasy opens July 15th, FYI. i also saw Shrek just recently and that was very well done. I saw the making of Shrek, and they must have mentioned 15 times that "this is the first time anyone has done this," phrased one way or another. Knowing DreamWorks, they stepped on it to get it out before Final Fantasy, otherwise they wouldn't be able to say that (and it must be important to them judging by the number of times they say it!). Just like they put in a lot of OT to get Antz out before Bug's Life. It's the DreamWorks way... To conclude, Render On!

The thing that I find most worrying about any threads like this where people mention things like radiosity, better render engines, volumetric lighting, high polygonal models and other interesting toys that are commonly found in high end expensive applications is that while it would be nice to have these things in Poser there is one fundamental difference between poser and these other applications. Poser is and was an artist's tool. It was designed for those artists who could not and can not afford a real life model. OK, it's grown beyond that but... all of the poser models can be exported, imported into higher end applications and all the effects people want can be applied there - assuming you can afford those applications. The chances that Poser 5 could include many of these functions/features and still remain at it's low price, making it affordable to the masses rather than a select few rich cats is minimal at best. There is a reason that Lightwave, Max, Maya etc cost what they do, and it's not "just" because they're aimed at industry. I really would rather have Poser5 introduce better character creation tools, better posing tools and overall character control than have it introduce things that I can get from a higher end application... For rendering I would rather use the versatility of something like Bryce or Vue d'Esprit - which offer better render tools and are still cheap enough to be inside the hobbyist market. Adding more professional tools requires a more professional price. Or is this the end desire of the more pro users of Poser? To cut out the budget linked hobbyist and turn Poser into an industry priced higher end non affordable application? Scared that people's demands will price Poser out of reach of many? Damn right I am. As they say. You can't have something for nothing. The more somethings you want, the more the price goes up.

pppshhh..i dont CARE if it ever gets that good...i just remind myself that poser 4 was the one i fell in love with!! lol.. CD-RW;)

I dont know...we all have valid points, we all work hard, we all know what we would like to see in a program, but is it feasible? That depends...I cannot imagine CuriousLabs would jack up the price to cut its very large user base out of the loop. But there are ways to enhance it as well, for a little more, maybe, as opposed to a LOT more.

maybe if they had patches..??

In response to Questar. You have made some extremely valid points, but i feel that CL are going to have to do something about Poser's render engine. If my memory serves me well, they are doing something about it for Poser 5. I think that Poser 5 will have to be a big leap forward, but not in the league of Maya just yet. I don't think people are saying that you can get as good results in Poser as you can in Maya, I think it's more along the lines of we have the ability to create 'real' looking characters such as the Final Fantasy ones above. CL knows that the industry is fast going in this direction and they also know they can't afford to be left behind. Better character creation tools, yes. But better lighting tools and a better render engine too. Plugins could also be a possibility as seperate add-ons to keep the initial price as low as possible.

Maya just ENDED a sale. It was only $4700 for the basic software... I guess it's back up around 7K now. You want this level of renders, either learn texturing REAL well and buy a monster PC, or be prepared to pay a ludicrous sum of money for the software - or both.

I dont know CB, I think we are holding our own here LOL...

Syyd, you are one of the FEW good enough to APPROACH this level with Poser. I think there are like six others here, and another half dozen spread between the two main Poser sites. This level of realism requires more talent on the texturer's part than any special software or special advanced models, IMO. Even if CL gave us the exact models from Final Fantasy, how many of us really would even be able to APPROACH the level of realism/detail in the above renders? Maybe one in twenty - one in five if they included the actual textures?

Everyone is making valid points on both sides. Some of the Mike renders I saw above are stunning, and DO come close. The four main things that Poser has to overcome to begin looking as good as the FF characters are: 1) Rendering Engine / Lighting Shadows !!! 2) As many have pointed out, there is something wrong around the eyes, nose area. 3) The HAIR! Poser hair has come a long way, but the hair in FF is to die for! It is simply incredible ... and these are just the still shots. From the trailers I saw on the big screen, it appeared they could manipulate very strand if they wanted to! 4) Bump-maps. Take another look at the black guy above ... incredible bump-mapping. He simply looks incredible ... I feel like I could reach out and touch him. (He'd probably bitch-slap me if I tried ... the mighty Ving Rhames is playing him!) Bump-maps coupled with the right lighting/render-engine make a HUGE difference. I honestly feel ALL of these items could be dealt with in the next release, including a spiffed-up render engine. It will never be a 100,000 renderer, but even a minor improvement in this area would advance Poser renders light years. The hair would be the second major obstacle, but we're almost there now, so I don't think this will be a problem. -Tim

{I honestly feel ALL of these items could be dealt with in the next release, including a spiffed-up render engine. } I doubt they could address ALL of these issues and still keep Poser an "entry level" (i.e. less than $500) product. An improved Rendering Engine is allegedly in the works, but either there will be two "flavors" of Poser (Consumer, or <=$400 per seat, and Professional, or >$500 with all bells and whistles), or it won't be that much of an improvement. And while I'm certain the hair will be greatly advanced over what we now have, we're either $500 or two+ versions of the software from having something that "everyone" would be happy with...

I know this would not be true for everyone, but to me $500 would be a drop in the bucket! Compartively speaking of course ... it's still cheaper than most good 3D software out there (3DS, Lightwave, etc.) ... granted it's very specialized. After spening money out the whazoo on AE, Premiere and boatload plugins, $500 seems like a bargain. Assuming the rendering engine was a "mean-machine." I would still consider something around $500 close to entry level in the world of 3D animation. It would be nice to have two options $250 and $550 versions. -Tim

It's not just bump mapping, radiosity and specular mapping takes a play here as well. Out of all the functions available between bryce and Poser I really wish one of them would allow - even minimal - radiosity and specular levels. The new Cinema 4D XL7 has some very impressive lighting abilities built into it and the render options are truly stunning with volumetric caustics now a part of the options, if Bryce 5 comes close to this I'll be impressed enough to buy it as I can't afford Cinema 4D at the present time. The chances, and realistic problems with adding radiosity to Poser render engine would mean a complete rewrite of it's current renderer - but then I guess it wouldn't hurt to overhaul the thing anyway. It just seems strange that so many 3d apps allow specular mapping, yet neither Poser nor Bryce do this. I must confess that I'm surprised poser doesn't have specular levels seeing as they are so important to accurate flesh mapping - not just glowing bits on space-ships. Heh, and now I'm starting on things I'd like to see. I guess it just can't be helped. :) Hopefull, whatever CL do with poser 5, they'll manage to overhaul the program and still keep the price manageable. It would be a real shame to see this affordable package join the ranks of the other so called "professional" market programs, just because of the huge number of new toys that have been added. Perhaps better integration with other software would be a way to go - increasing the scale of poser objects to match those of other apps for import/export, and allowing greater compatibility when exporting to programs like Bryce and Vue - though if I recall correctly vue 4 now recognises and imports Poser pz3 scenes, and that has a hugely improved engine too. I do appreciate why people would like a better renderer in Poser, but I personally feel that the modelling aspects of this package would be better overhauled as there are other apps based on render engines that will always do the job better. Now, the real trick would be to make Poser animations compatible with an external renderer, so you can create the walk anim within Poser and export the whole thing to another engine to render it, rather than having to export per frame from Poser. Oh I dunno, I'm starting to ramble. Time for more coffee I think.