This I have to share here cause it's come to my knowledge people think they have the right to do whatever with your product after purchasing it. This may be explictly my opion and does not necessarly reflect Rendosity's point of view: ------------------------------------------------ a note to a post on product feedback - all items sold here are bound by the same "conditions" tward comercial usage as stated in the general Renderosity Liscense Agreement. I as well as others like to protect our rights on our products and when someone uses it in a comercial production thats going to be using it more then for a simple image, yes I reserve the right, as well as anyone else who sells a product. Me not protecting my rights as such would be just like a software company sticking out a product and allowing people to distribute it for free when its a product that u must purchase. This is standard practice, and anything that is not a "Free" item is bound by that, as well as some items that are given away as free because its stated so in the readme file with the item. Based from your Comment I would have to believe that you haven't purchased too many models, else you would probably know that this is a normal condition for most models, purchased and free. Don't take this as a bitch letter, its just stating some basic facts so that perhaps you may better understand why there is a "Comercial claus" in the purchased model. And the claus only effects those who wish to use it for a profit. In most cases i say sure, go ahead and use them, but in special cases, i require a liscense to be purchased for use of the model do to the nature of what its being used for (i.e. part of a video game).

hmmm... I don't fully understand your post are you saying that anything purchased from you is not available for commercial work? Any "clauses" should be made upfront, prior to purchse. If that is the case that should be placed on your items pages, I know that I will ~never~ purchase an item that is not available for commercial work. There are plenty of high quality freebies for my personal galleries. Or, are you talking about redistribution? No one has the right to redistribute even if they purchased it, without consent, that's as much a warez item as buying Poser and giving it away.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

I agree with LadySilverMage...What the heck am I gonna do with a model that I can't use in my commercial design work? Sit around and play with it in my spare time? Shoot now...if that be the case in all licensing, as you would have one believe, I better cancel my next 2 projects and see if Mickey D's is hiring. Pop...pop...pop!

What I think he or she means is we have or need another license for game use......for example if you go to sims sites you can dload software that lets extract the model and mess with it in uvmapper, which also means you can export as an OBJ, so if a similar project was done with models bought here they could be breaking the license..steve

ah... that would be a problem, but it does make me think of a topic that came up recently in a graohics group i belong to. Posing poser people and then offering that in psd or psp formats for others to use in their own images. I thought it was a great idea at first, but then I htought it was odd and said so. Many others felt it was fine. Someone wrote to Curious Labs, but that was almost a month ago, theysaid they were thinking about it as far as copytrights go. But we never got an answer back. But that is just an image, and can't be extracted and used elsewhere...

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Celeb does have a valid point, a lot of the stuff you can buy can't be used in "some" commercial products without a licence, though this usually covers the transferrance of the mesh and items to others rather than imagery that is sold on. Under ideal conditions you can use things you purchase in commercial projects that utilise images, animations etc created using the purchased meshes. You can't however hand that mesh/obj/texture/whatever onto third parties or other users (redistribution etc). So game use etc would be out of the question. It's usually a very good idea to carefully read any information that the author has available before you purchase an item depending on the use to which you wish to put it. Normally if you're just selling pictures created using the purchased items then nobody complains about it. Daz actively encourage such use of their items as it gets their stuff out into a different market where people might sit up and take notice - also look at the huge proliferation of characters and morphed "things" in the stores here and elsewhere. So, that again is an almost always allowed "commercial" use. But, anything that means a person could get hold of that model without paying for it is considered a breach of licence. A seperate licence in these case is usual procedure. Perhaps it might be an idea to make this sort of thing clear in the store so that potential buyers understand the limitations they are agreeing to when they purchase a model. Don't forget, commercial limitations do not always mean "ANY" commercial use. I don't know any model maker who says NO! to a buyer producing images for sale using the items they sold. But I know a lot who would balk at the idea of their stuff being handed on to production houses or individuals for use in games or other "software" for use by people who hadn't paid for the use of that item. I hope that was clear because the two answers to Celeb's post above were a little sarcastic and I think misunderstood what was being said. At least I hope so and that "I" haven't misunderstood. :) In summary: Artwork is almost always allowed without special licence. In fact most authors of a model would encourage it. Any other work that includes redistribution of the model or parts of the model are not allowed and require a seperate licence. This is quite normal I'm afraid. :) There is a small clause in there that applies. Stripped morphs, textures, add on items, and things created by the purchaser (such as clothing) are theirs to do with as they wish - sale or give away (you'll notice there are some "freebie" items as addons to store items in the Freestuff) But, you can't make money directly from the model itself without author agreement.

wasn't sarcasm, Celeb didn't say specificcally that he meant gaming, he said "i.e. part of a video game". His post was unclear and I said as much. I still believe that if their are special limitations those should be in the product description. If the mesh can be stripped out that does require a special license, most people know that. I never said redistribution should be allowed, quite the opposite. Only that any "special restrictions" should be clearly laid out prior to purchase.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

I want my money back for the item I just bought from you. You don't get to read the damn readme until you buy the product. This is CRAP and I want a refund NOW. Marque

You con't get the readme file until you buy the product and it doesn't say in the ad that you can't use it for commercial use. That is called bait and switch and it is not legal, not to mention not ethical. As I said I'm requesting a refund. It is pretty much understood that when you buy a product here you buy the right to use it in renders and in animations. This is below low. Marque

Sorry LadyMage I wasn't sniping at you, honest. :) But the post came across as a tad sarcastic and perhaps I misread it to that point. However, "video game" is how computer games used to be described once upon a time, and some "old timers" still use that term. :) I agree with you that something like this should be mentioned in a prominent position for any potential purchaser to see, mainly because there are so many people new to 3d and new to the net in general who might, in fact probably aren't aware of some of the little doohickies that govern what they get up to. Certainly if a particular author has stringent restrictions then yes, they should most definitely be mentioned prominently prior to purchase as it will prevent arguments flaring later. There's nothing worse than an unhappy punter, for the simple reason that they can get extremely verbal in public areas and cause a nightmare of problems, not least of which is significant falloff in sales. It is important that anyone buying an item be aware of all and any restrictions in place on it's use because 3D objects are not like software programs. There's something intagible about a file full of binary and text that people just can't see as clearly as a software box, cd, manual, tech support numbers, registration card and lengthy licence agreement. So, there are going to be mistakes made, and they'll get worse as the community grows with more people wanting items for commercial use. In that respect, perhaps a mention in the Site Ideas forum, or directly to the store admininstrators regarding this might be an idea. You'll excuse me if I don't do it as I don't purchase from this store and hence have no "place" to bring much of anything to their attention.

marque are yousaying that celeb doesn't allow it in commercial images (which is not gaming!) or animations either? If that's the case I'd want my money back as well. If that happened to me I'd make sure everyone I know that does commercial art knows that as well. Sales wiould definitely drop for vendors who don't allow commercial images.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

"It's usually a very good idea to carefully read any information that the author has available before you purchase an item depending on the use to which you wish to put it." Check his ad, NOTHING there about no commercial use. I don't give or sell models or props that I buy, but I do expect to use them in my renders. The site where debra ross sells her stuff tried the same thing, and you saw the uproar that that caused. This is NOT acceptable by any means. I have a request in for a refund, and I will not purchase ANYTHING here until I get it. All I can say about you caleb is BUYER BEWARE. Marque

Re-reading the initial post in this thread there is one section I disagree very strongly with. I as well as others like to protect our rights on our products and when someone uses it in a comercial production thats going to be using it more then for a simple image, yes I reserve the right, as well as anyone else who sells a product Simple image? Sorry, that really does need to be clarified because this is what I would call "highly restrictive" and defeats the whole issue of purchasing an item. Commercial restrictions of this magnitude should IMO be limited to freestuff only. Purchased items should not, ever have a more than simple image restriction attached. Imagine if Adobe sold Photoshop and then told the users that they couldn't sell or use commercially ANY image created with it. They'd go bankrupt. Commercial images do not, unless it's for some backwoods kiddie comic that isn't ever going to be sold further than Aunt Bessie's farmyard chicken coop, ever manage to remain "simple". Sorry everyone, I missed that word "simple" when I read this the first time.

Got my refund just now and so I am happy. His model has been destroyed and taken out of my Poser directories. In case anyone is interested, this is what upset me. "these models are the sole property of ***** *****, you have purchased the right to use these in any non-comercial use. For Comercial useage you must contact myself for written permission. More details about rights of useage can be found in LISCENSE.TXT" Took his name out because it's his real name and I don't think even though it's in the readme that it's right to have it in open forum. Marque

FYI - anyone who buys our models or even takes the freebies, have full rights to do with it what they want, even commercially. To us when a person buys a model, you bought the license to own it and do what you will. Mike and Sharen SAM'S3D

Also how do we know unless it's stated in the ad? Hopefully store poicies will change because of this. Now, back to C4D and Lightwave...need to learn so I don't have to worry about it. Marque

If we have stated it wrong in our License you bet your boots we will clarify it for our customers. Mike and Sharen SAM'S3D

Check his ad, NOTHING there about no commercial use. I did that Marque, and I couldn't see anything there that implies any of what has been said so far in this thread. I do still stand by what I've said above, but this image thing is basically bullshit. That is one particular clause I've never run across in anything except textures and clipart downloaded from the net. In the case of downloaded imagery I understand it. It would be like taking Syyd Raven's images, or someone elses renders and selling them, that'd be wrong. But creating your own images and making money from this is standard practice around the planet. Jeez, I mean if this was, as Celeb is trying to say, standard. Like you can't produce ANY images for commercial purpose then the ramifications across the planet would be catastrophic. Max, Lightwave and Maya users who couldn't produce movie sequences because of commercial restrictions on the software, plugins and models (if they use the inbuilt tools and primitives), Photoshop users who are open to law suits from Adobe, Alien Skin and others because they used the tools commercially to produce things that are quite the opposite of "simple" images for advertising, magazine cover art etc.... No, in this I agree, it's total nonsense and that being an unannounced restriction only made clear AFTER you have purchased and downloaded an item, well hell, you are in my opinion entitled to ask for your money back. To not make something like that clear before accepting money from punters is most definitely the poorest business practice I have ever seen. It is also extremely rare in any market, let alone this relatively new one. Simple images only my foot.

The store was very professional and refunded my money immediately, I am very impressed with them, and wish to thank yvette. Marque

Hopefully Caleb will clarify what he means. I would work on the following assumptions. If someone selling a mesh wanted to put further restrictions, I wouldn't buy an item from them: 1.)I should be able to use the mesh in any renders I make, whether for commercial or private use and be free to alter the mesh in anyway I desire for use in my images. 2.)I should be able to make morphs for that mesh and even sell such morphs, as long as morphs have been properly modified to be usable only as morphs. 3.) I would NOT expect to be able to use that mesh as a basis for a modified mesh and sell it as a new item. Morphs are o.k., modifying a model and then selling it as a complete object is not. As far as use in video games, I would expect the above to be valid there is well. If someone used your mesh for still images or even pre-rendered cut scenes, that should be allowed. HOWEVER, importing your mesh or modifying it then importing it, as 3d geometry for use in a game should NOT be allowed. I wouldn't ever buy a model I couldn't use in renders with out restrictions. However, I would NEVER expect that by buying a model, I could then use it as the basis for a new model and sell it as such. It's hard to tell from the original post exactly what is meant. IF a game developer bought one of his meshes, then uses that mesh for game geometry, that's b.s. However, if the game developer just used the 3D model in pre-rendered art work or cutscenes, I don't understand how someone could be upset at that.

I think what is meant is very clear in Marques post where he quotes caleb's license agreement (post 14). I most certainly won't be buying from him.....

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Neither will I. Whats the point of paying for things if I cant use them commercially? I think you have this completely turned around caleb. Freestuff generally has restrictions on commercial use -- but when I purchase a product I expect to be able to use it in commercial works. You cant have your cake and eat it too. The arrogant attitude towards your customers evident in this post would be enough of a reason for me not to buy your items, but now you've given me another. Good luck in your commercial endeavors, misguided as they may be.

Let me chime in here. The following is a section of Viewpoint's end user licensing agreement. It is typical of this type of agreementand mainly prohibits the use of 3D models and pictures (datasets) in any way the the original content can be extracted, or can be used as part of a colletion "for sale" used to create other work (clip art) "You may (i) access, use, copy and modify the Datasets stored on such computers at such single location in the creation and presentation of animations and renderings which may require runtime access to the Datasets, and (ii) incorporate two dimensional images (including two dimensional images that simulate motion of three dimensional objects) derived from the Datasets in other works and publish, market, distribute, transfer, sell or sublicense such combined works; provided that you may not in any case: (a) separately publish, market, distribute, transfer, sell or sublicense any Dataset or any part thereof; (b) publish, market, distribute, transfer, sell or sublicense renderings, animations, software applications, data or any other product from which any original Dataset, or any part thereof, or any substantially similar version of the original Dataset can be separately exported, extracted, or decompiled into any redistributable form or format, or (c) publish, market, distribute, transfer, sell or sublicense any image created from a Dataset as "clip art" or the like, including but not limited to animations or still images that are sublicensed or otherwise distributed by a stock photography or stock animation agency, or in any other manner in which the primary source of value derived from publishing, marketing, distributing, transferring, selling or sublicensing the image is that it is accessible in a manner similar to "clip art." Subject to the foregoing limitations, and the rights, if any, of third parties in or to the objects represented by the Datasets, you may copy and distribute your animations and renderings derived from the Datasets" -SMT

I'd rather stay in my lane than lay in my stain!

Dont' you get the feeling, after reading this thread, that the only people who are going to gain from all this wonderful, creative work you guys are doing, are lawyers.......? I do........

With the amount of money that can be made with selling items (though there is one vendor who was recently gloating over buying 3DMax, a new car and having a holiday on the Florida keyes as a result of sales in an online store) there is every chance that eventually some lawyers are going to get involved. Why? Because money is an interesting little item that creates something I call bandwagon syndrome. Whether the profits are used to enjoy oneself or stay alive and pay bills is immaterial. This is evident in the "if they can sell it I can" or the "hey there's a store.. I can make money." attitude that is evident from some people around the web - regardless of quality. So, because of the increasing number of vendors and customers, eventually some legal involvement is going to become necessary, that's just the way business works. This legal involvement may be in the drawing up of "official" documentation to cover sales and the uses to which a product can be put following those sales - both to protect the customer and vendor in the event of a conflict. It's rather too easy for people to suddenly "change their minds" and add a new clause to a "readme" agreement and claim it was there for "ages". Also there are other legal issues involved. There will come a time when someone feels severely affronted by having parted with money for something they perceive as "crap". At this point that person may decide on legal action using misrepresentation or one of the other advertising laws to their benefit. Then there will be the need for people conversent in Internet Laws and bylaws and other regulations governing the sale and purchase and marketing of items on the net. So yes, sooner or later the people making big money from the net, from stores like this one will be lawyers. Let's just hope that it's not for a long time yet. :) Sorry if I offend any vendors in the stores, this is not an attack on anyone in particular, just a few who produce garbage and try to fleece people with it. They know who they are, assuming any of them might visit this site and read this. Also it is because of things like that, and the situation that started this thread that makes the involvement of legal representation a foregone conclusion. Commerce cannot exist for long without it.

Which is why I won't be using them. And we aren't talking about Viewpoint here, we are talking about an artist who did not state you could not the item he was selling until AFTER it was paid for, and that is false advertising. And the impression I got from Viewpoint was that you know from the beginning where they stand. And as far as using a model in a game I believe that as long as no one can take the actual model out and use it for themselves then that is also acceptable. If it is not, then those artists that I have purchased from need to contact me and we need to get my refunds started, because there is something REALLY wrong here. It is very clear what has happened here. He is saying pretty much that he is giving you the right to play with these models, but if you do the legwork to find a client, and you do the stoyrboarding and put together the presentation to sell your idea to said client, and you put the work together in the animation or rendered picture, then he wants a cut. I have no problem with that if it is stated up front and I have a chance to make the decision before I buy. But for him to put it out there and after you buy to say you have to get his permission, that's like buying a car, and then having the dealer tell you, "oh no, you have to leave it in your driveway, you can't take it anywhere or use it in any way out of your driveway, read your owner's manual". And when you say, "but you didn't say that before I bought the car!". And he will say, "no, but I didn't have to I am the one who created this car, and even though you paid for it I still want more money if you decide to drive it anywhere else". I think it would be a good thing if the store has a policy which insists that the artists here be honest, although until now there was no need was there? Marque

I'm shaking my head and have a smily-face. How the hell should we sell/buy a product which can't be used for commercial images. That's a really big bullshit. Upps, sorry for those bad word. Maybee this tread had bo be placed in the C&D-Forum, because had nothing to do in general with poser. SHARKEY

I really confused here. who did what to whom?

Marque, you're my HERO. I mean, I just love your style! I rely on you to keep 'em honest.

Well, I know that I am VERY careful in how I read the liscences for what we buy - and it is one of the reasons we don;t go anywhere near the 'free' items. If I paid for a model or texture I absolutely intend to use it commercially - otherwise there would be no possible reason to spend the money. If I bought something and it turns out I couldn't use it commercially (for renders, not reselling the mesh) then iw oudl be pretty annoyed and I would expect my refund immediately.

Basically lalverson Caleb sold a product that had a readme that stated the product could not be used for commercial work without his permission...but it was not stated in the ad, so there was no way of knowing I could not use it commercially until I bought it. He was the one that red-flagged it by starting this thread. I asked for a refund, and yvette here in the store gave me one. They acted quite professionally about it. I would advise against buying his product, Caleb, unless he places his readme in his ad so that the next person who looks to buy it has full disclosure BEFORE buying it. Any lawyer worth his salt would take Caleb's readme apart and toss it back to him. You don't change horses (or contracts) midstream. And now I'm out of here. Got my refund, deleted his models from my system and everyone is happy. Marque

Renders and animations i don't care bout, u wanna include the model itself then hell ya, u gotta contact me.

Well, I was interested in his Dark Ages set. A heckuva a good deal for the price and time saved trying to create or collect all those props. Then I read this thread. Now, I went back to the ad and read the following from his listing: "sense people have a hard time understanding the comercial clause here - i don't give a darn bout renders or animation useage, but u wanna include the model file you better contact me." Now, that is giving me the impression that I would be okay with IMAGES and ANIMATIONS so long as the format used did not allow the meshes to be extracted. Now, if that is the case, it is still pretty much in line with what you read in the Renderosity box before you finalize your purchase. However, I do not have access to the actual license file so I do not know for sure since there have been statements here that indicate that the license file states otherwise. I am thoroughly confused. Caleb68, if you read this, I would appreciate it if you could kindly clarify or even send me a copy of your license file via email to casamerica@yahoo.com. I hate to be a pain, but I want to make sure I know what I'm getting and that I do not violate an artist's wishes. Take care and Godspeed.

caleb68, we must've passed each other on the cyber-highway.

Before ppl get all bent out of shape and start throwing names around about someone I like, stop and think for a minute please. Caleb does NOT prohibit the use of his store items from ALL commercial use...just DON'T distribute the actual items theirselves within your ventures. Make all the pics and animations you want and do with them as you please, but get permission before trying to include the meshes in the package. I don't think asking for a refund is a good idea because there is not proof or guarantee the items aren't on one's harddisk (not calling anyone a liar). And to slam someone and make a public spectacle of saying you will never buy from them again because of a simple misunderstanding of an otherwise common knowlege practice of copywrite adherment isn't a polite thing to do.

Doesn't Renderosity have a standard license for stuff they broker??? If not, why aren't these readmes being "tested" during the quality assurance stage? Marque is saying she is NOT redistributing the object. caleb68 is saying one of his buyers did or intended to??? wtf?!?

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

liscense file is the EXACT liscense file here at renderoisty: This license only applies to items purchased through The MarketPlace at Renderosity, not to any items from the Free Stuff area. It is the Buyers responsibility to read and understand this license. If you are unsure about anything, please send an email to store@renderosity.com. The Artist (Author) retains all copyrights to the enclosed materials. The Buyer is not purchasing the contents, only the right to use the contents. The Buyer may not redistribute this archive file, in whole or in part. The Buyer may not store it any place on a network or on the Internet where it may be referenced by a third party. Buyer acquires the copyright to any derivative works created using this work, provided none of the original materials can be extracted from the derivative work by any means. If Artist can show that any of the original material can be extracted from Buyer's derivative work, Artist can demand both the original and derivative work, and all copies thereof be deleted. For example, Buyer cannot make an image of a texture map mapped to a flat plane, such that the original texture map can be cut & pasted from the image. This is designed to protect the Artist from Buyers releasing work, which lets other users obtain the copyrighted material, and is not meant to infringe upon the artistic endeavors of the Buyer. Buyer may not make any MetaStream animation files with the enclosed materials, until this format can protect the original materials from being extracted. In the event a Buyer is not satisfied with the product a refund may be issued. Issuing refunds is at the discretion of the Artist and / or the Renderosity MarketPlace staff. Refunds will be issued only after the Buyer has worked with the Artist to fix the problem. When a refund is issued, the Buyer is responsible for deleting all files using the product and may not distribute the product. To protect the Buyer: Buyer is hereby granted a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use all of the contents of the encapsulating archive file. Artist maintains that all items in the archive are their original work, or are derivative works from something found, and verified, to be in the public domain. Artist maintains they legally possess the power to grant the Buyer this license for all enclosed materials. Buyer may use the materials in any personal projects or commercial projects, as long as the Artist 's work is protected from extraction and none of the items above have been violated. Buyer may make a single backup copy of this archive file, for personal archival purposes only. Buyer retains this license, even if the Artist stops selling this work at a later date, or decides to charge a different price. The Artist may only revoke this license, if it is shown that a Buyer has previously violated the terms and conditions above.

No, that is not what he's saying in his readme. And I didn't say I wanted to use his mesh, I wanted to use renders and animations. And I deleted all but his readme just in case he changed it to make me look like the bad guy here. I DID NOT START THIS THREAD, he did. This is the readme I got with the product in it's entirity with only his name removed because I don't think it would be right to have his real name out on the forum, but I will send you the readme if you don't believe me. I don't have any reason to steal an $8 product, so leave your accusations at the door. Note what it states about NON COMMERCIAL USE. You want to talk polite????? Let's talk about selling something and AFTER you buy the product you find out you can only use it to make pretty pictures for your own computer. I think not. Give me a BREAK!! I didn't ask YOU for a refund, nor am I going to if that's what you're so damned concerned about. Your friend was the one who started this thread NOT ME. Marque This package contains: 1 Barrel 1 Butter Turn 2 Carts, one broken into multipul parts, one with only wheels as seprate prop. 3 fences, 2 stone fences, 1 iron fence 2 gates, 1 hook top, 1 spiked 1 Pillary, 2 piece, poseable 2 planks, 1 short, 1 long 1 Burning platform 1 Gallow Platform, morph target to swing open floor and pull lever 1 plain platform 2 roof segments, one short, one long 1 Wood Stand stair model for platforms 1 table, morph target turns it into a picnic bench 1 broom 1 Rake 10 wall segments - segments contain slit door, Single Door, windowed, door+window, outturn window, and plain wall. All doors and Shutters poseable and removeable. 1 character model - noose, made poseable for gallow. all items can be found in there section in the group "Dark Ages Kit" All Items are fully textureable, Glass areas transparency setup in advance. these models are the sole property of *********, you have purchased the right to use these in any non-comercial use. For Comercial useage you must contact myself for written permission. More details about rights of useage can be found in LISCENSE.TXT The Textures may be freely distributed. ********* vcaleb@wtdarkness.net http://www.wtdarkness.net/

Sounds like the old "bait and switch"... I believe that federal law protects consumers from such fraudulent behavior from vendors.

you have purchased the right to use these in any non-comercial use. For Comercial useage you must contact myself for written permission. what the heck do you BUY this for??? readmes over-ride the license??? renderosity staff, what's the deal?!?

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

This is what I expect from Renderosity Buyer may use the materials in any personal projects or commercial projects, as long as the Artist 's work is protected from extraction and none of the items above have been violated. How is using a model to make an animtion or render a picture for an ad for a client violating that product. It is NOT being shared..no one else can get at the mesh. So you need to either have a specific readme set up for you by the store, or you need to state CLEARLY in your ad, which you didn't do at the time I bought this product that I couldn't use it for commercial purposes. No one is slamming your friend edriver, just stating the damn facts. Now get off me. I have my refund and I have stated clearly why I requested it. Your friend is frantically trying to keep selling this item as evidenced by the change in the ad. I repeat, I never sell or give away models or meshes I have bought from somone else. If someone else did that to him then he has a right to be upset...WITH THEM, NOT ME. Marque

you guys are freaking blind. More details about rights of useage can be found in LISCENSE.TXT Read the freiling liscense.

Now im going to make another point clear. This Marque guy, if its even the one im refering to orignally in this post sense that guy has changed his name twice already, basically wrote me in a im asking for full rights to do whatever in the hell he wanted, leaving no stipulations on distributing the model itself. I sure in the hell ain't going for that as well as anyone else. AND MY README FILE CLEARLY STATES READ THE LISCENSE (EXACT LISCENSE USED FOR ALL RENDEROSITY SALES) FOR DETAILS ON COMERCIAL USEAGE. QUIT BLOWING THINGS OUTTA FREILIN PERPORTION.

Tell me what you see in there that says you can't use a product to make animations, (as long as they are not Metastream) or pictures to be used commercially? Where do you see that, please, just for me, pull that part out, because I don't see it. If you are saying that that license takes my right to use the model I buy to create my animations that CANNOT be pulled apart, and so the model is NOT COMPRIMISED in any way, then it's time to quit buying models altogether. What YOU are saying is that according to what you have read into this license, we buyers have no rights whatsoever to use these models we buy commercially without express permission from the creator of the model. If I am wrong here, please show me the paragraph/s you are talking about. Cause I just don't see it. And I would love to have someone from the store clarify this for me and any other folks out there who just don't see it caleb's way. Marque

This Marque guy is a female, and I really want the people here at the forum to investigate this, as I have kept the same name here with the one exception of using Marquessa when all the password problems were going on. You know damn good and well I did not send you any IM, and the forum moderators should be able to pull up ANY and ALL of my IM's or posts. I can't believe you would even make such an accusation. You show me the posts where I have used a different name. Marque

ok marque, then ur not the person that this message was started about if that is the case. And the simple fact, it doesn't state u can't use it for animations/renders, and i've made that abundly clear, i don't know how many times now.

and to your other post... this states the comercial clause that the read me is refering to in the liscense agreement. If you ain't breakin' that, why bitch?: The Artist (Author) retains all copyrights to the enclosed materials. The Buyer is not purchasing the contents, only the right to use the contents. The Buyer may not redistribute this archive file, in whole or in part. The Buyer may not store it any place on a network or on the Internet where it may be referenced by a third party. Buyer acquires the copyright to any derivative works created using this work, provided none of the original materials can be extracted from the derivative work by any means. If Artist can show that any of the original material can be extracted from Buyer's derivative work, Artist can demand both the original and derivative work, and all copies thereof be deleted. For example, Buyer cannot make an image of a texture map mapped to a flat plane, such that the original texture map can be cut & pasted from the image. This is designed to protect the Artist from Buyers releasing work, which lets other users obtain the copyrighted material, and is not meant to infringe upon the artistic endeavors of the Buyer. Buyer may not make any MetaStream animation files with the enclosed materials, until this format can protect the original materials from being extracted.

There seems to be a great deal of confusion over the apparent conflict in what the license is stating and what is stated in the readme. I would suggest the following be inserted in the Renderosity License Agreement. It is a clause that is used by the company I work for.: "YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT, EXCEPT FOR A SEPARATE WRITTEN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE AUTHOR/ARTIST/CREATOR AND YOU, IF ANY, THIS AGREEMENT IS A COMPLETE AND EXCLUSIVE STATEMENT OF THE RIGHTS AND LIABILITIES OF THE PARTIES HERETO." It could/should also be inserted in ANY licensing statement with any other ESD files. For what it is worth, I am satisfied as to caleb68's intentions and the legal standing of the licensing agreement. I will be purchasing the Dark Ages product. Take care and Godspeed.

sense people don't get what i ment i posted a little addin to my sale page for that item: --------------------------------------------------------- ok... people don't understand what i ment in the readme file. so just ingore it k? no one understands and its caused much confusion, just read the liscense.txt (standard renderosity license file found in all purchases) and follow the rules there in? thats what i ment.

Hi caleb68, This part is the source of confusion: you have purchased the right to use these in any non-comercial use. For Comercial useage you must contact myself for written permission. It is a good idea to leave that out and only have this part: details about rights of useage can be found in LISCENSE.TXT And you were very nice with this part: The Textures may be freely distributed. I agree with casamerica, For what it is worth, I am satisfied as to caleb68's intentions and the legal standing of the licensing agreement. caleb68, I hope you settle your issues with the guy that im'ed you about possibly distributing your mesh. This was the original problem you wanted to address in this thread which got lost because of the readme file issue. Your rights as the creator is as important as the rights of buyers, and shouldn't be lost in the thread. Get staff to track it down for you. Goodluck.

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
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Caleb68: I believe the part getting you into such dire straights here is that you ADDED conditions to your readme file, which forces these people to contact you if they wish to use what they PAID for commercial rights commercially, particularly you are saying, in "games". This smacks perhaps of simple "greed" to them, my man. They fear that you are about to demand more money. They already paid you once. In the event that you have ANY changes to the standard license at Renderosity that allows commercial work to be done, with the exception of metastream animations, all vendors MUST put a post into their store description area, so that customers are aware of what they are buying. We are seeing this trend more and more lately, and it is disturbing. Vendors who want to force customers to contact them, and get permission, and pay all over again, for commercial usage. This just won't do folks. I myself will never buy a product like this. When I catch this in the ones I test, I inform my vendor I am testing for that this must be clarified in the product description before release, and to frankly, not expect many sales, unless they choose to relent on this matter and change it. What I sell to you, believe me, you CAN, should, and damn it, I INSIST that I WANT you to make video games and movies for Hollywood, and so forth with ;) Make your fortune off my work, please. I watch every single movie till Im getting squint lines now, waiting to see one of my nifty models show up, and Im about to buy out CompUSA hoping to find one of my models in a game, because I think I would be so thrilled, just so pleased, so flattered, so actually truly fullfilled... I might pass out. So people... as you can see, some of us are aware that when we sell 3d models for a living, we are merely selling artists tools to then make their own living with ;) It is 3d Clipart guys :) Render, animate, make movies, make commercials, make cartoons, make video games, make anything you can think of to make, so long as you do not redistribute our meshes and textures and cost us our way of making a living... the 3d clipart :) Imagine where Adobe would be today, if in their license it said, "you can make all the perty pitchers you want, but you can't use them commercially without writing to us at Adobe... and for sure... no video game work." Something for you vendors to think on.

greed ain't the issue here, and everyone is totally off track of what the original issue was. to put it bluntly Im tired of explaining this time and time again. 1) whats stated in the readme file is just a simple breakdown of what is already in the Liscense thats required to be posted here. 2) i stated see readme file for discription of comercial usage. 3) The main issue that was being addressed was someone trying to get full rights to do whatever the hell they wanted to with my stuff, hell should i hand them the keys to my front door and let them lease my house too? 4) Read the product page, sense people are so freiling paranoid and can't understand i've posted there "just ingore the readme file cause no one seems to understand what i was saying in the first place". 5) a readme file has no presidence over the "License Agreement" sense that is the agreement of useage for the product in the first place and the readme file is stating to look at that for details of useage. 6) people here are just way overly greedy themselves. You make something good, u stick it up for a cheep price and ask they not distribute the models and they have a cow over it? i really don't get the point. U make a game that ur going to use them in, hell ya i want you to contact me first so i can verify with you that there is no way that the models are going to be extracted and used. 7) im tired of explaining myself over and over again, could u people accually read whats posted instead of just skimming over it? 8) The Liscense Agreement that is in all my products is the same liscense agreement posted here at renderosity that they ASK YOU INCLUDE IN ANY SALES ITEM in its original UNMODIFIED VERSION. so if you have a problem with the liscense agreement I STRONGLY URGE you take it up with Renderosity and not me. I Also Strongly Urge you don't buy anything from this site if you don't agree to the liscense agreement SENSE ITS IN EVERYTHING SOLD AT THIS SITE. 9) i Asked Renderosity to REMOVE the README file sense I MADE A MISTAKE AND MADE U READ THE LISCENSE AGREEMENT for the COMERCIAL Usage clause. Dudes, u need to start reading the documents included with the models instead of tossing them aside if you would this whole bitch fit everyone is having now probably wouldn'tbe happening. Probably 1/2 of you haven't even bought any models from here and have just downloaded the freebies, but who knows.... ........these forums are proving to be worse then the local town gossip...... Im tired of this discussion... have fun... im done saying the same thing over and over and over.....

Amen to this Mehndi!

Caleb68: If you don't want people to use your models then don't sell them!

Well this topic sure has gotten responses. Again we feel simply that we make the models, we sell them to the user, you want to put it in a game or on a picture or whatever, you buy it, it belongs to you to do with what you will. This is not to degrade anyone in anyway but lets put this in perspective, we are talking about 3D Models, data, and lets break it down to lines. Not that it doesn't surely take work, effort and skills, but this isn't rocket science where we have come up with some special secret designs that can't be stolen. I agree with pdblake, if you don't want people to use your models, you should think twice about selling it to the public. It is true though that it is possible that the sale of an item will go down because someone has stolen it, but most times we find the loss of a model, because it was shared or taken from someone else, is minimal. On our web site we try to make the best possible pictures of our models for those who can't afford to buy them to be able to at least grap the pictures to use. That is why we don't put watermarks on our pictures of our models. We love to see what others can do with our models. You buy them from us, feel free to use them anywhere. But again this is our feelings about this long subject. Mike and Sharen SAM'S3d

The way I see it is anything you buy should be ok to use in whatever you choose, be it commercial or not, as long as you are not redistributing the product as a freebie or for profit under your own name (therefore stealing) then there should be no problem. I personally would be quite flattered to find a character of mine pop up in a game but I must admit it would stick in the throat that I got $20 for the sale & the game was making a fortune :) As long as my products aren't being redistributed then please use them as they were intended, for your personal & commercial use.

BrianR... think of the WONDERFUL resume you could build then, and go work for a game company doing models your own self ;) If even one of our models makes it into something important here, it will open doors for that artist.

I just looked in the store and nopt one of caleb68s products state that they cannot be used commercially. This means that the buyer doesn't even know about this restriction until they have paid for and downloaded the product. This is very misleading.

Caleb made a mistake. He says he thought he was clarifying the standard license, but in fact he just confused it. If you buy his products, you can, and I assume always could, use them in commercial renderings, animations and any other format where the models can not be extracted. I think he isn't particularly articulate and others here have either continued to misunderstand his clarifications or have just been ignoring them and stoking the fires. The restrictions are the same for his products as all the others under the standard Renderosity License. You can do what you like with them, commercially or not, but can not redistribute the meshes, or include them in a medium where they could be extracted. Whether that is fuily what he intended originally, I don't know, but he's been making it clear that that is how it stands now, so what the heck? On a side note, some have stated they would have no problem having their models used in video games. For most users, models with in a game may not be extractable. However, some games do offer SDKs to the public or even polished editors. In such a case, it is very possible that the model could be extracted from with in the game and then used gratis by others. In such a case, it would fall under unacceptable use in the standard Renderosity License, because it would be extractable. If a game maker wanted to use a model under such a situation, they should contact the model author and explain the situaton and attempt to gain additional license for the game. Some may offer it for free, others may ask for compensation or even flatly refuse. It's their right to decide whether or not to extend rights.

redistribution rights and usage rights are very different things, i'm sure we're all aware. i personally am thrilled every time i see something i've created being used by another artist, whether it's a simple image, or a commercial image, or whatever. i would be thrilled to death if someone put something of mine into a popular game or (omigod!) a movie!!! i've already had a couple of requests, done from common courtesy, not usage stipulations, to use different things in some independant games. i was happy to say yes, thank you kindly for asking! it's creatively stimulating to me when someone else can make use of my creations! it's a natural high :) i think many of us would and do give permission for games and such simply for the thrill, and the most compensation asked for would be credit given.

Can we stop the piling on and grandstanding? How many times does caleb68 have to state what his intentions were? How many times does he have to drop to his knees and beg you to understand what he was trying to say? He tried to clarify something and, instead, mucked it up. Okay, he made a mistake. He confused the matter. So have others. If I may quote - "Again we feel simply that we make the models, we sell them to the user, you want to put it in a game or on a picture or whatever, you buy it, it belongs to you to do with what you will." Do with it what I will? Okay, it is my will to compile them into a package and resell them on CD. Not what was intended by the above statement? Hmmm,... someone stated that "... it belongs to you to do with what you will." If it belongs to me and I can do with it what I will, why can't I resell them? It is not what was intended, but that is how it came across. What caleb68 stated did not come across meaning what he intended. It was a misunderstanding and he has been vilified and publicly whipped continuously for it. Enough is enough, good people. I do not know caleb68 from Adam. But I think it is time everyone got off his back, stopped piling on and quit using this as an opportunity to grandstand. This is not exactly the way a "community of artists" should be treating one of their own. Take care and Godspeed.

The license states: "Buyer acquires the copyright to any derivative works created using this work, provided none of the original materials can be extracted from the derivative work by any means." It's simple. If someone makes a video game and the model is extractable, then the person can obviously be held subject to liability. Not only that, but in order to sell a game, a person would need to distribute the actual model for the players to use, even if it is not extractable. If this can be taken as implied by the license, then the buyer who distributes the video game can be held at fault for redistributing the physical model, whether the model itself is usable or not. By the way: Law and enforcement of laws don't mean anything except what a judge is feeling at any particular moment or whether or not the judge happens to be on good terms with a particular attorney or law firm, which party appears more respectable on the surface, which party is on better terms with the judges assistants, and a number of other things, but very often nothing in relation to the actual facts of the case.

I agree Casmerica, I think we have all had time to digest that somehow what Caleb said, and what he was trying to really say, got muddled and messed up. It is being fixed by the store administration, who are working with him to help clarify the readme and such in his products so that no further misunderstandings occur. :) Lets all give the guy a break... if this were easy stuff after all, trying to explain usage rights, all the lawyers would be out of work, having to go begging for handouts on the streetcorner :)

I re-purchased the package, but the readme does still need to be changed as it still states for commercial use you have to contact caleb. I have a email in to caleb and I also sent a copy to the store. The ad reflects the change but the readme doesn't so I still don't feel comfortable with it. Caleb if you see this before you check your mail please contact me. Marque

ahh, okay, now people are starting to catch up... (i only caught up in my post #50 meself) has anyone thought of caleb68's original problem? the reason he posted in the first place? (and caused people to re-read his readme which started a totally separate chain reaction in this thread.) he said someone left a product feedback or im (i'm not sure which) that seemed to imply a person who bought his product thinks they can redistribute his object. now that we're done roasting caleb68, is it time to help him with his original problem? Mehndi, you're one of the store staff, can you guys do something? goodluck caleb68 ... unfortunately, if it had gotten into unscrupulous hands, who knows how many ftp sites its on by now... quick, take everything down off the internet! now!!! ok, don't throw things at me, i just watched Shrek. i'm in a silly mood.

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
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Forum: MarketPlace Customers

Subject: People thinking once they buy a model they have full rights to it... bah...