Just heard from TV that the Americans together with British had attacked Afganistan. Here in Brazil we are prying that the Americans are sure that they are fighting against the terrorism and not against Islam people, against poor people that have nothing for eat, for drink and...for live. I saw the terrific scenes from Sept 11th and I posted my opinion on this forum at that time. OK, you must give a answer to this fucked people which think that exploding us will be usefull for their job, but please not commence a war without sure! (Sorry for my bad English)

Irrefutable proof of Afghanni participation, and Ben Laden's involvement, have already been furnished to the governments of our allies. There is NO doubt about this at all! As announced by president Bush earlier, we will be providing aid to the Afghanni people during, and after we have finished with the Taliban and Ben Laden. As soon as we have nuetralized the Afghanni air defense systems and their offensive aircraft, we will begin air dropping food and supplies directly to the Afghan people and, also, to the refugee camps that surround Afghanistan. WE ARE NOT BARBARIANS! We do not make war on innocent people! I hope this answers your questions and concerns. Jim Moore

I think it is perfectly clear that these attacks are aimed at terrorists and those who support them. I am honestly shocked that we (the american govt) are dropping food and humanitarian supplies for the people at the same time as our B-52's are bombing military targets. That show that we not only recognize the plight of the Afghan people but that we are making a priority of helping them as well. Unfortunately it is war and some civilians may be killed despite all efforts to keep that from happening.

I think I can speak for the vast majority of Americans that we would never, ever hurt innocent people as that monster bin Laden has done. We want him and him only and the people who help him. We have nothing against the Afghan people, whom I feel sorry for because they are caught in the middle of all this mess. And the thought of those poor people starving brings tears to my eyes, even as their own government is stealing the food that is already being given them to feed it's own army. We are doing everything we can to avoid attacking any civilian areas and are doing our best to concentrate only on the military and Al Queda bases within Afghanistan. That is our main objective. We will do everything we can to help and preserve Afghan civilians. This is not about Islam at all, but about monsters who kill innocents for an unjust cause, pure and simple. Laurie

I wish I could share the optimism and the blind belief that the United States would never harm innocent people. It's just not the case, however. We are dropping bombs and firing missiles into another country, a country where people live... people that have nothing to do with Ben Laden or the Taliban. It is an act of war and innocents get harmed in war whether we like it or not. I remember in 1986 we bombed the cities of Tripoli and Benghazi in response to Lybia's purported support of terrorism. Did we topple the Lybian government? No. Did we oust or kill Mohamar Khadaffi, the leader of Lybia and sworn enemy of the US? No...he's still there. What we did was destroy a lot of buildings and kill a lot of citiczens, including Khadaffi's baby daughter. I simply can not support the use of such tactics... especially if, in the end, they are not going to accomplish anything. If this military action proves as fruitless as the attack on Lybia (Khadaffi still in power), the Gulf War (Hussein still in power & Kuwait still under dictatorial rule), or even our prior attack on Afghanistan (after the bombing of US Embassys in Africa), then all it is is more senseless waste of time, money, and human life.

Buddha32, would you have us sit back and do NOTHING?? Just say "Okay, Mr. bin Laden, we're a bunch of pussys so come on over and kill all of us you want?" It's people like you who just DON'T understand that this motherf*&ker doesn't care how peaceful some of us want to be, he's gonna try and kill us all. We didn't WANT this! We didn't ASK for this! But by God, we're gonna have to end it. Because if we don't God only knows what that evil bastard will do. Do you have children? Do you care that you may end up burying them if we don't try and get this bastard? People like you scare me...people who are just lining up to be slaughtered. Argh! Aw shit...now I've gone and lost my damn cool. Something I rarely, if ever do. Laurie

We are NOT firing indescriminately into Afghanistan!!!! What makes you think that we would? As for Lybia, We DID fire at goverment buildings and defense installations (Kadaffi's Palace being one fo them)! We did NOT indescrimitely bomb civilian targets there. The Gulf war was NOT about eliminating Hussein and it was NOT about replacing the the government of Kuwait with a democracy. Where do you get your "news" from anyway? TAS? Jim Moore

"it is is more senseless waste of time, money, and human life" BTW, about that one thing, you are right. The loss of human life is ALWAYS senseless. There where 7000 senseless human lives lost just a month ago. Not fighting, not hurting anyone, just going to work. All in the blink of an eye with no warning. Think about those people and those buildings. YOUR people. We will at least try to keep from hurting innocent people. Do you think that bin Laden gives a shit how many innocent people he kills? Of course not...that's his M.O. ...killing innocent people. He and people like him have to be stopped. Laurie

Actually I do have children. And of course I don't want anything to happen to them, that's a moronic question. Let me pose a question to you. How would you like a bomb to suddenly fall from the sky and demolish your home, kill your family because of something done by someone that happens to live in your country? Maybe even someone protected by your government? It's not your fault, you had nothing to do with it, and the bomb that kills you or your kids doesn't even get the person that comitted the inital act, doesn't unseat the governmemnt that supports him... all it does is kill an innocent family. People like you scare me.

Wow... look how easy it is to get people riled up. All I'm doing is expressing an opinion...so sorry it doesn't agree with yours, but it can be dangerous sometimes in this land of the free to express an unpopular opinion. Of course I realize that our targets are primarily military this time and other times... but you can't tell me that no innocents are getting hurt in these attacks. No matter how much technology advances, the bombs don't always hit military targets. And you're also right about the gulf war.. it was not about ousting Hussein or implementing democracy in Kuwait. It was about protecting American oil intrests abroad. We lost a record low number of servicepeople in that war (although it turned out to be more than was reported at the time), but it was still unacceptable in my opinion that a hundred or so kids came home in bags so that the prices at the gas pumps wouldn't rise. This too shall pass, I suppose. I seriously doubt that it will do any good, however, that's all I am saying. I guess we just have to wait and see... and you people need to chill out...maybe try decaf.

I take it then that if your children were among the victims of the terrorist attack in NYC, you would rather just shed a few tears for them and forgive the people who masterminded the attack? I suppose in your view, then, that it would be better to forgive the Japanese Empire for bombing Pearl Harbor and killing thousands of American soldiers in the Philippines in the Bataan Death March than go to war with them and kill their civilians in the fire bombing of Tokyo.

But that's exactly what the hell happened!! To us!! No, I don't like it. It was no fault of mine. But how do you stop it? You have to fight back, no matter how much you don't like it. It's like the bully in school...as long as you let him, he's gonna beat the piss out of you. If you bust his lip just once, there's a big probabilty he'll stop. We can't just do nothing. We can't. Contrary to what you might think, I'm not all gung-ho about all this. I'm not a hick from the sticks with more guns than teeth. I'm actually well educated. I've also never been big on war. I think in the past the U.S. has perhaps poked it's nose into things it had no business in. But I don't think that's the case here. The sad fact of the matter is that there is no negotiating or bargaining with these people. The only thing they understand is violence. As much as we as Americans hate violence, it's also a sad fact that war has solved a lot of the world's problems. If not, you might just be pledging allegiance to Hitler right now, you and alot of other countries. Laurie Laurie

We have been giving food to them all along, this isn't new. I support what we are doing there. We can't allow these people to continue, and who knows which country will be the bad guy after they are through with the U.S.? It appears to me that Afganistan is already under his rule, and look what he calls freedom for them. Is that what you want for this country as well? Innocent people will always be hurt or killed, especially if these BinLaden types put their interests ahead of the interests of the innocents that are in the country they have infested. If I had a bead on him I'd take him out myself. Marque

Buddha i think you need to look at the longer term or wider view.....yes the gulf was about oil, but remember if the oil prices go up then ALL prices go up and people end up starving, oil prices are linked to all product prices.....as for this attack it had to be done, to do nothing would only either annoy Ben Laden in to more attacks or make him (and others) think the USA is an easy target....what you must remember is these people don't think like us....Steve

oh hell, here we go again, every one getting all riled up about something that just had to be done, for the sake of everybody, all over the world. We the british are also sending aid to the thousands of INNOCENT Afghans, as well as taking part in strikes against TERRORISTS. And I am proud of my country and yours for doing it. If we don't do something then we might as well all go and live in nuclear bunkers and forget about living.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

Scotty...beam us to C&D. whooooosh!!!

You are right Scott...sorry about that :(. Laurie

I'm still of the opinion that and eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind, to paraphrase Ghandi. Interesting that you bring up Pearl Harbor... we needed a good excuse to get into that war, got us out of the depression, didn't it? And if I read the history books right, the Japanese did bomb Pearl Harbor in an unprovoked and horrible act... but we dropped atomic bombs on 2 of their cities. Somehow I think that we overstepped our ultimate retaliation in that one. It's pretty funny that we're doing all this arguing about something that none of us can do a damn thing about. I'm not going to change my opinion though and I'm not going to be a blind flag waver like so much of the rest of the country. We'll see what happens. But I can almost guarantee that there will still be terrorism and terrorists in the world when it's all said and done. From time to time those people will choose American targets. Perhaps I have higher ideals that are far from reality and perhaps violence begetting violence is the only way and perhaps I am foolish for not thinking it's a good thing that we're raining death on people that have nothing to do with the horrors that happened here. But I'm no more foolish than anyone that thinks the actions undertaken today are going to change a thing. Buddha32 now closes his mouth and waves his little American flag like a good citizen.

About time you got that transporter fixed Scotty...geez that took a while...no replicated scotch for you for a while...

Now if I can just find someplace to transport these tribbles. ;-) ScottA

~L~ Why don't we send THEM to Afghanistan? That would drive out the terrorists in a matter of days!

LOL.....um...hehehe...um...no...I am not gonna...no way....um...hehe...no comment...(teeheehee).....snicker

.......good idea Buddha32! :-o

I reinforce my opinion. I'm not claiming that you Americans are bombing the terrorits, what I'm worry is that you are really sure in make it? Perhaps could be other terrorist group, in other country, who done the terrific attack on last Sept 11th? Our Goverment(Brazilian) give political support to you but also is asking it was necessary?

Good point, ohl. We've been told that the US has "irrefutable proof" that it was Ben Laden and his group... but no one has said publicly what that proof is. Interesting... I myself believe we do have the right guy... but in a country where we hold "innocent until proven guilty" as a basic right, why can't we say what the proof is? oops... I was supposed to be quietly flag waving...

This is the cold hard simple fact coming from a veteran. People get killed war. Civilians get killed in war. Some people here are running on idealism rather than hardcore facts. War is not a good or an evil, it is a resolution. In WWI & WWII, the Military forces not only bombed the military targets, but also the civilian targets. It was civilians who were working in the factories that built the weapons. It was civilians that worked at the docks and warehouses that were major supply depots that supplied the military with rations. Supply and support is the backbone of any military and to take that away is to cut the legs from under an aggressor. A SAM site without missles is nothing but a pickup truck. An army without food is an army too fatigued to fight. Taking out the support is the quickest way to victory and the least costly to lives but that means taking out the civilians whom are more often working in such areas. That is war. Now we are not talking about a bunch of people whom play by the rules either. We are talking about people whom are so determined to kill any american or british or european that they will send their own children out with bombs in their pants. That is how determined these people are. We have seen it before in Vietnam and Somalia. And for those of you whom don't know, the marines had standing orders to kill anyone whom came near their designated areas. Many children got killed because they ignored all warnings to halt. Such things go on everyday and a soldier do not have the luxury of ethics to lean on especially when he is the one underfire and risking is life for something greater than himself which is much more that I can say for some musician who probably was a high school dropout and knows nothing about events of the day yet yells the loudest against a military doing what a military is supposed to do. You can be as idealistic as you want, but remember, (those of you in the United States!) The freedoms you have were paid for by a soldier's blood. Most people don't have a clue what war is all about and why civilian targets are often so much more significant that military targets. Whether you like it or not, whether you are a Jehovah's Wittness or the most hardcore christian, you are part of this battle. Because if you pay the taxes that fund the military that kills the enemy. You are too supporting the forces that aggress the enemy. It tell you what, the enemy does not care about your belief or whether or not you are fighting for him. All he see is "Westerner!" Also as for the comments against Islam. I am too shaken by events of the day. I have always been for tighter immigration. I got big time flamed on this forum because of my views on Elian or whatever his name was. These people were sleepers. How can I look at a muslim person the same again. You tell my how I can look at any muslim person and say, well he is absolutely innocent. I will always question in my mind where thier loyalties are. Here in the U.K there are protestors standing outside of the gate with pickett signs that say war is wrong. I don't say anything to them because they have a right to be there. That is what I believe. But while I was jogging one day I was stopped on the street by one of them. I asked them this: Why don't you go over there and pickett at the border of their countries for striking this mighty blow. It was just as I thought. He bounced around the answer. On the other hand, America is not an angel either. We have profitted from destablization in that region many times. And for those of you whom don't know, we have been the ones to destablize the region on more than one event. So no claim to holy fame here. Welcome to the world of international affairs.

the people in Afghanistan have been tortured and killed methodically by the Taliban, the involvment of any other country may end this for them; in terms of victims of war, the poor and the destitute are always casualties of life, war is only incidental to that struggle. The repressive nature of the radical believers is not intended to do more than to enslave the people who cannot escape, the terrorists wish to create a terrorist state, filled with terrorists, they have no interest in sharing any resources with poor people. They use them as sheilds, as slaves and as breeding stock for the next generation of terrorists......this is not war in the traditional sense, it is an act intended to round up the cowards who find pleasure in shooting innocent people. For those who feel that it is only necessary to "love" these people back into the fold or to stay out of their way...think twice because that is what these people want, they want to argue that we are divided in our beliefs against the unified radicals.....they want you to welcome them with open arms so that they can get close enough to make sure you will be blown to bits with the bomb they carry....they love you to love them....that is what they count on........

I bet you that many of those people however believe in the Taliban just as there are supporters of Castro. What we get from the news is what we want to hear because that is what sells in america. The truth is often a far cry from the facts. I don't know about the Taliban or what they believe, however poor does not always equate to unhappy. What we may see as repressed may be something entirely different to them. To look at this with western eyes is to look at it with the eyes of ignorance. You cannot learn to speak spanish unless you think spanish and understand the symbols that make up the narrative. Only a handful westerners really know what is going down there and history will reveil that tale perhaps in another decade or more.

Attached Link: http://www.islamic-city.com/index.html

For Buddha32: Do you want the US to travel around the world and by force implementing democracy in every country that doesn't have it??? It just so happens that monarchy's in most cases work just fine. Atleast when they're not ruled by somebody like the Taliban or Saddam. There are many countries around the world that doesn't have democracy. That does not necessarily mean that their people are being oppressed. Kuwait does not need to be forced into a democracy by us and neither does any other country. The people will make that choice when they want it badly enough. Oh and the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was NOT about retaliation. It was about ending a bloody war, that most likely would have resulted in even more japanese civilian and american soldier casualties than if they hadn't bombed the two cities. If the US had instead gone into Japan with ground forces, they would have faced women and children in the streets armed with bamboo spears. The japanese have never been good at surrendering and most likely millions would have been killed...On both sides. Don't compare WWII to this conflict. They are of a different nature entirely. Tephladon: To your question of whether or not you can ever look at a moslem again the same way you did before. The answer is Yes, you should be able to. The vast majority of moslems are as horrified by the September 11th massacre as the rest of the world is. Their religion is one of peace and respect. Not of murder or hate. I suggest to all that read this to take a bit of time out of their day and read through some of the info on the website I have provided a link for. Puts the term Jihad into perspective and also shows what the real moslem lives by. The Taliban are not moslems. They may say that they have Allah on their side, but religion is merely a thin shell that these animals hide their true motives behind. I am not a moslem, nor am I a christian, but I have members in my family of both orientations and have many friends that are moslem. Do not judge without knowing what you're judging. If you're a white christian, does that mean that we should look at you with mistrust because you're "the same as Timothy Mcveigh"? "Shit, he's white and christian, he's probably gonna blow up a federal building or burn a cross on someone's lawn. We better keep an eye on him." Ignorance is the anesthesia that numbs the pain of stupidity. Do not judge or hate something, just because it's different or you don't understand it. That makes you no better than bin Laden and his followers. Regards Ian Wendt

I do understand that there are many people whom claim the muslim faith but hold different beliefs just as there are different denominations of christians. I don't recommend you come here and generally fling insults or call people ignorant just because they have been shaped by this experience. The old parable is true. You can read and become as learned as you want but experience is the greatest teacher however it is experience you will pay the highest price for. Everyone is shaped by experience. I have been shaped by this experience. Experience also taught me not to drive through West Virginia, So I drive around the state. Not all West Virginians are racist but I learned on more than one occasion that I am not wanted in some parts there. But I don't go around speaking out against all white people. It just means that if I have to travel through West Virginia, I am more cautious than I would be if I were travelling through Virginia. That is not stupid or hating however it is prejudice born through experience and bred through caution. Most people call it human nature. Why can I not look at middle eastern muslims and arabs isrealites and jews the same. Because I will never be sure where their loyalties lie. You see, it would have been different if these people had came into the U.S illegally and committed these acts but now these were well placed insurgents who could make most americans believe that they were loyal to this country. A lie is like glass. If you don't see through it, it shines right back at you. These people are professionals at what they do all they way down to the resources. Being trained in america to commit the acts against the America and waiting for nearly a decade to be called into action without the slightest slip in their loyalty to their cause. How can I look at them the same knowing that. That is not hating people. That is caution and it was because of lack of caution that they so successfully pulled this operation off.

Carnifex... actually it was someone else that brought up WWII, I was merely responding. And no, I do not think that the US needs to go around forcing democracy on other nations... I was merely pointing out that Kuwait is no more free after the Gulf War than it was before. And don't kid yourself: they are oppressed. Women in that country can not work or drive or own property. Non muslims also may not own property. George Bush kept talking about "freedom" and "fighting back the aggressor" and not letting the act of "naked aggression" go unpunished as he wrapped himself up tighter and tighter in the American flag... and it seems to me that his boy is doing the exact same thing. As for ending the second world war, I believe it could have been done without nuking two major population centers. wave wave

Buddha32, You seem to be against whatever policy the United States has internationally. What exactly would you do NOW, with actions towards terrorists. I am sure everyone would like to hear your well formed foreign policy.

Heh, Buddha32. Perhaps you should check up on your Kuwait info. Sounds like you're confusing the Taliban with Kuwait. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_345000/345400.stm I suggest the above news story. WWII could definitely have been ended without nuking the two cities. Could it have been done with less loss of civilian lives? No, not very likely at all. Teph, you're right in the sense that you can't know where these people's loyalties lie, but neither can you know that about people from any where else. Be it born-and-raised-americans or not. It could just as well be the guy in the seat next to you in your local church or in the bar or at the checkout line in the supermarket that has a bottle of anthrax in his coat pocket. The thing is that you can never know. But when you automatically assume that people of a certain denomination are terrorists, that is when you truly leave yourself open for attack. Oh and many of these terrorists did enter the country illegally. Many had been here without visa's for months, if not years. The fact that our system is so poor at catching people like that is a big part of the problem. Experience IS the best teacher, and like you I have been shaped by my experiences with moslems and people of other faiths. What my experience taught me is that the biggest mistake you can make is to judge somebody based on their skincolor, religion or country of origin. There are equal amounts of assholes in every race, creed or nationality. Egyptian fundamentalists killed a bus load of tourists some years back in Egypt. My step dad is from Egypt. Did that mean that his colleagues at his job suddenly looked at him with fear or hate in their eyes, because "He was one of them!"? No. By the way, my moslem stepdad married a christian woman (my mom) in a christian church and not one member of his family or friends back in Egypt had anything bad to say about it, despite my mother having had me in her first marriage. I was accepted by his VERY large family as just another member of the family and this family are all devout moslems. My stepdad to this day will still not eat pork. And he works for The Christian Childrens Fund. All I'm saying is don't judge every member of a certain people on the actions of a few madmen. Fanatics of ANY persuasion are potentially very dangerous. Oh and I never did call you ignorant. That was not the intention of my parable and if it was construed as such, then I apologise. Regards Ian

First, let me apologize to the community right upfront. I was determined to stay out of further discussion related to the current events unfolding around us. I admit I havent the deft touch of a diplomat. I also realize I rub most of you the wrong way. However, there are just times when the misinformation or outright lies become too great to ignore. This is one of those times. >>>I was merely pointing out that Kuwait is no more free after the Gulf War than it was before. And don't kid yourself: they are oppressed. Women in that country can not work <<< Incorrect. Or that young lady behind the counter at the Burger King in Kuwait City was a figment of my imagination. >>> or drive < Incorrect. In fact, the women drivers of Kuwait are as aggressive or more so than the male drivers. I think they may have created the term road rage. >>> or own property.<<< This one would be too involved to try and explain to one who obviously has such a grasp of the facts of the world. Suffice it to say that there is discrimination but that women are allowed to own property. >>> Non muslims also may not own property.<<< So those Christian churches are mirages? Yes, as hard as it may be for you to believe, there are Christian churches in Kuwait. >>>George Bush kept talking about "freedom" and "fighting back the aggressor" and not letting the act of "naked aggression" go unpunished as he wrapped himself up tighter and tighter in the American flag... and it seems to me that his boy is doing the exact same thing.<<< Yes, well, they also wrapped themselves up in facts a bit more accurate than the facts you just offered. I do not know the source for your facts, but I will put it up against mine. State your source. >>>As for ending the second world war, I believe it could have been done without nuking two major population centers.<<< Agreed. But it would have cost ten to twenty times the number of lives. Casamerica

Buddha32, you continue to evade answering my original question. I will restate it then for everyone's benefit: if your children were among the victims of the WTC terrorist attack, will you just shed a few tears for them, meekly turn the other cheek and ask the U.S. government to forgive the terrorists, who declared war on the U.S. and its citizens, and the Taliban government harboring and protecting them? Answer the question, yes or no? If your answer is no, then kindly explain to everyone here what you, if you were President of the U.S.A., would do to bring those responsible for this attack to justice.

Okay everybody, Buddha32 is going to think what he/she thinks, so maybe it's best that we don't badger them anymore. The rest of us know what has to be done and we can never please all of the people all of the time. Let him/her have their opinion...they are entitled to that. sigh Laurie

The whole thing make me ill.I've quit my job and havent left the house since Sept 11.Im not terrified But wounded badly by all this and I dont even live in ny.God is merciful its ashame the terrorist werent when they started this beyound childish shit!

Just rambling.....I think it was when they showed images of people jumping from the burning tower when I snapped more,because i had lost it long before this even happened.DAMN!

..................... "I hope that the American people ...." .................... I hope that the American people can get together and have some common sense about this whole thing, and understand that, for as much as it stinks, c'est la vie. Nobody really ever wants a war. Well, I imagine there are those who do, such as bin laden, but you'll notice that people who think like that tend to make sure they're safe from it all when the shit starts hitting the fan. That's what this is all about. bin Laden has run from the fan, so we have to take the shit to him , all up-close and personal-like, so he gets a good look at it before it's plastered all over him.

Just as they are entitled to their opinion, so are we. No one is depriving them of theirs, but we would be deprived of ours if we were asked not to respond to ignorant bullshit.

Just speaking from recent personal experiences,threads like this are useless and only lead to serious arguments. There is nothing any of us can do about any of this.

Attached Link: http://www.marthastewart.com/

True, but it does enable people to vent and voice their opinions. Maybe a "Martha Stewart tea kozy knitting" thread would be more in order? Don't forget to fill out the survey!!!

Anybody notice I didn't post any pics of Barney here yet?? I can change that any time.....(not that I even want to though)....but usually he likes to appear when things get rough to show you how real sickening life can be....:-o

Wow... looking back on this thread can really set one to wondering. This all started because one person simply said that they hoped that the United States was sure they were doing the right thing. Then the whole thing went apeshit. It's funny...and a bit sad really. I know that my opinions are rarely shared by the masses... and I often find myself turned into a whipping boy in forums like this because I don't simply go along with popular opinion. Whoever said that the pen is mightier than the sword knew what they were talking about. I could literally feel anger and hatred pouring from some of you, through your words. Why is someone expressing a different opinion such a threat? Through the course of the day, looking at the thread and responding here and there, I made the mistake of allowing myself to be drawn into sidebar arguments. Let me simply say that I do not have a set of encyclopedias in front of me at all times and examples I may have used to illustrate my points were based solely upon my memory of certain events and articles/media etc that surrounded them at the time. Case in point: To Casamerica: Clearly I was never in Kuwait, thank God. I did not make up the things I said however I clearly remember reading them a short time after the gulf war. The source was a news magazine - and not a slanted left wing one either... but we are talking about 10 years ago here. I will admit that since you clearly have first hand experience that you are right and I was wrong about the state of individual liberties in Kuwait. I think that my point is still valid, however. We assisted the ousting of one oppressive dictatorship for an absolute monarchy that simply happened to be more friendly to us. And while the president spoke of "striking a blow for freedom" and other such rhetoric, the fact is that if it weren't for the oil involved, we wouldn't have been there at all. To Rtamesis: I was not eveading your question, there is no need for me to do that. You ask if one of my children were killed in the 9/11 horror, would I turn the other cheek yadda yadda. More to the point, you ask what would I do if I were the President. Well, I can't pretend to have all the answers, and as much as I disagree with the man in a number of ways, I do not envy his position. The one thing I know I would not do is start dropping bombs and missiles on an entire country (ok ok... certain locations within a country) to retaliate for the actions of one group. Maybe that's why I would never be the President, I guess. All through this forum I see arguments about how the Taliban opresses people in Afghanistan and how maybe these actions will stop that... like that gives more of a moral cause for our actions. Thing is, before the 11th happened, we didn't give a tin shit about who the Taliban oppressed... and we really still don't. The anguish over what happened last month will last a lifetime. Whether you lost friends or loved ones in the disaster is immaterial, if you are American.... nay if you are a compassionate human being in any way, you were affected by the horror. And the souls of the lost and their families are crying out for justice. I hear it as loudly as anyone. I simply don't think that this is the way to get it. To the people that were bombed today, those innocents caught in the crossfire I mean... we will appear just as evil as the terrorists that committed the original act. I don't think the care packages that we're also dropping will ease the woes of a mother who's children are gone. I don't think the family that huddles under an empty crate for shelter because their home was destroyed will feel any better that we gave them the box. And these actions will not bring back the lives we lost, will not shelter the families that were forced from their homes here, will not ease the pain in any way that I can see. I'm not trying to piss anyone off any more than I already have (never meant to in the first place... but I suppose it is unavoidable), but just as your opinions are unchanged by all this discussion, so are mine. And despite it all, the bombs still flew, and last I heard Bin Laden still lives. How many people her purport to be Christians? I, myself, am not. I am Pagan. I know Christianity pretty well though. I even studied with the intent of becoming a Pastor at one time (seems a million years ago now). I do know that George W. likes to talk like a Christian. He did say that the decision to launch an attack came with "a lot of prayer." Thing is, my Bible seemed to say that Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. That if you enemy strikes one cheek, offer the other is how I believe it is put. George is a Christian, I guess, when it may garner votes or the support of the Moral Majority. I guess that's all an arguement for another day. No good can come out of repaying evil with evil, I guess is all I meant to say. You can take that however you like or just ignore it. Whatever you want, I know it's not going to change a damn thing anyway. But I believe blowing shit up and killing innocent people is evil. No matter what your reason for it is. And I think that certainly applies here. The sun will rise tomorrow. Unfortunately, there's some six thousand people in New York who won't. Today we saw to it that that number was added to by however many in Kandahar and Kabul. I grieve for all of them, whether it is the "American" thing to do or not.

Radart....threats like that will get you nowhere! You know as well as I do that pics of Barney will merely be responded to by pics of Teletubbies. See what I mean about an eye for an eye? Or is it peace through superior firepower? ~L~ Thanks for the laugh... I needed it.

Still can't answer a simple question can you? And the question is after all your criticism over what has been done, what is your solution for the here and now. Not lay back and state "Well I would have done this or I would've done that". You really like to criricize others but never seem to be able to come up with a working solution. Typical. What a bunch of dribble from a pathetic little wanker.

Pathetic little wanker? Wow... name calling is very inventive. Actually amongst all the pages and pages of crap here, your question was lost. It just didn't stand out. You really want to know what I would do? I suppose if I were oh so sure that Osama Bin Laden were the culprit, I would take him out. Send an intelligence agent to where he is and put a slug in his head. Send a team and take out those suspected of conspiring with him. Maybe assasinate the Taliban leaders while I was at it. We won't do that though. When you shoot just one person it's "murder." When you drop bombs on a city it's "just retaliation." And I don't recall attacking you personally, HairBall. I'd thank you to offer me the same respect.

What made you think I was talking about you? Hmmm? Or anyone here? Or just dinks that evade? Hmmmm?...Sorry if you took this as personal. But you know what they say "If the shoe don't fit, don't wear it". See Ya.

Dont pay hairball no attention its harmless and a rather nice person ,when its not taken seriously.Besides word can only hurt you when you try to read them....forgot where i heard that.

Sometimes.....But you never know. :)

Well... "Buddha32, You seem to be against whatever policy the United States has internationally. What exactly would you do NOW, with actions towards terrorists. I am sure everyone would like to hear your well formed foreign policy." And then... "Still can't answer a simple question can you? And the question is after all your criticism over what has been done, what is your solution for the here and now..." "...You really like to criricize others but never seem to be able to come up with a working solution. Typical. What a bunch of dribble from a pathetic little wanker." Can't imagine where I got the idea.

Yaaawwwwwnnnn. Anybody for some cards?

Poker or Gin?

How's about solitare! I'm going back to the Lightwave forum. Cheers Carnifex. You are right about judging people. I am prejudice in many senses. Against whites, blacks, and brown people. I am not ashamed of that. But this is more a strong personal feeling and one that I cannot deny. Because to do so would be to undermind who and what I really am. This may be something I need to work but for now, I could be unknowingly and guiltless finding comfort in my own anger. It is very possible and something I have yet to assess. But it gives me comfort and a sense or purpose that I never had while I was in the Military. Man do I wish I was in now. In such events it is easy to say the words on being open minded about everything and everyone, however in truth, how I really feel is entirely different. To thy own self be true. Comments that many will not like but I just can't and maybe one day I will get over it. .....but not today. Cheers everyone

Sad that we humans have come so far and still are not even near as wonderful and cute and sweet as our old extinct dinosaur friends became....that's what kilt them off ya know, they go too friendly on each other, become veggies, no more fighting, no more bad stuff, all they did was dance and sing whenever they had trouble and one day some bad, bad folks come along, no one really knows where they come from but they was mean bad doodoo's all around and they didn't care none about happy songs and sweetness and the color pink and smiling and....well all they wanted to do was be mean and nasty and have a bad day....the poor happy dinosaurs just couldn't take that none so they all just went to sleep forevermore and become fossils.... Cheers...I think....

Didn't kill them off Rad, they became birdies. Some died off, the big ones with the fat heads and small brains, but the smaller ones turned theirselves into little birdies and their descendants are flapping around the world dropping poop on people and clean cars and washing everywhere.

So what you're saying is that Barney evolved into Bigbird? Woah! The drugs must be kicking in...

Actually, I think barney evolved into Gonzo. Only something like barney could turn into a psychotic bomb planting vulture....

Is Gonzo actually a bird? I thought they figured out he was from another planet or something. Does anyone know... what the fuck is Grimace?

Grimace, shmimace. What really scares me is the Hamburgler. IF you ever checked out the FBI report on him, youd see his original alias was Turdburglar. I dont want to know how he got that name...

Just wanted to add my little bit to the 'fray' so to speak and hopefully without badgering anyone in particular. The group that believes that military strikes are being scattered at random across the civillian dwellings of Afghanistan is way off since that is not the case at all. Sure, we all have a right to our own opinion...aren't you glad that SOMEONE had the patriotism to lay down their life in order for you to enjoy that luxury even just a tiny bit? The Taliban ARE terrorists plain and simple and they are the stoolies of Bin Laden who is really the leader of Afghanistan regardless of who's mug appears on the media. It's real easy to say "oh, I'd just send in some special force to go get him" without having an iota of information or knowlege needed to carry out that "plan". Just because you don't see it televised doesn't mean such plans aren't being undertaken and aren't already underway. One last touch of reality....we don't even know if Bin Laden is still alive and can't really count on anything the Taliban says since they have been dealing square with the world for about zero seconds.

Wave wave. ~L~ Edriver, I was asked what I would do, so I answered it. I don't remember saying that such a mission was not underway. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't...just basicly damned if I'm not a mindless flag waver that supports everything our government does. Fuck that. What I said was that was what I would do INSTEAD of dropping bombs on another country. I know that we're not indescriminately bombing the population - but somehow that doesn't make it any easier for me to stomach. I also love how, anytime someone expresses an opinion or points out that they have a right to do so, someone has to point out "isn't it great that someone fought for that right." Did I say that I didn't appreciate the freedoms that we have? The people that fought to protect them? I never said any such thing. The message that you give with that sort of phrase is simply "We have freedom of speech - but it's unpatriotic to use it." Fuck that too.

Damn, I arrived too late :( Buddha32, don't give up hope or change your earlier opinions under the pressure of others, I found them totally valid and your observations on Libya and the 'puppet' regimes of the middle-east are totally accurate. As the senseless violence goes on and bombs continue to fall on defenceless Afghanistan, more and more people from around the world are beginning to share the same views and opinions as you do. If only the others in this forum could open their eyes to your words Buddha32...

Buddha32 wrote: "I will admit that since you clearly have first hand experience that you are right and I was wrong about the state of individual liberties in Kuwait. I think that my point is still valid, however. We assisted the ousting of one oppressive dictatorship for an absolute monarchy that simply happened to be more friendly to us. And while the president spoke of "striking a blow for freedom" and other such rhetoric, the fact is that if it weren't for the oil involved, we wouldn't have been there at all." I am new here and will mostly lurk for a while, but I feel the need to correct the above dangerous revision of history. America did not oust a dictatorship for a monarchy in Kuwait. Kuwait, a member of the United Nations, was invaded. Iraq deleted it from the face of the Earth. The nations of the world put it back where it was. Yes it is an oil rich nation, so what. Kosovo has no riches to offer and we risked (still risk) our lives there. I feel it would have been a crime if the nations of the world had tried to install a democracy after kicking the Iraqis out of Kuwait. We handed it back to the Kuwaitis for their self-determination - as it should be. I've been reading a lot of Arabian news websites of late and find it amazing the Americans are damned if we do and damned if we don't. ie. if we try to get engaged in a mideast country, we are accused of meddling. If we leave them alone, we are accused of neglecting the plight of their poor and downtrodden citizens. The cold war shaped much of their vision of us. Now is our chance to change that vision. I am sure they have felt like pawns in an east-west battle. They should feel lucky the USSR didn't prevail in the region. And by the way, Libya completely abandoned its state sponsoring of terrorist groups after the bombimg mentioned in this thread. Diplomacy works between governments, but warlords and their gangs only understand might. Finally, I like what I saw on "The West Wing" on Wednesday: al Qaeda is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity Peace

My only thought in all this is that, in our quest to defeat a terrorist, were not thinking like a terrorist. Consider: the United States announces that its coming over with all its military might to take bin Laden and put him before justice. Its tantamount to sitting at a poker table and telling everyone what cards you hold. So the attacks begin and we hear reports of this or that military installation being hit, and yet in all the confusion, bin Laden has most likely left the country since he had such advance warning. One can only hope that, amidst the noise and confusion, we are operating with quiet stealth as well to capture this man.

Attached Link: http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/10/09/gen.aid.agencies/index.html

That doesn't just bite into and swallow the propaganda with a big smile:

Woody sez: Kuwait, a member of the United Nations, was invaded. Iraq deleted it from the face of the Earth. Maybe so... but teeny little countries get invaded every day. Why did this one matter so much to us? Jed Clampett could tell you: Black Gold...Texas Tea...Oil

Every day? For over a decade? That's a lot of countries. Do even you believe your own baseless propaganda? Name one teeny little country that has been invaded and deleted from the face of the earth since Kuwait. Name any country that has been invaded and deleted from the face of the earth since the gulf war. You seem to get your information from your imagination. What country name will you now fabricate in response?

ELVIS IS ALIVE I TELL YOU. I just saw him yesterday on 5th and Baker Street.

He had a brown paper bag tucked under one arm filled with pistachio nuts :)

Hey Buddha32, lets start a new thread, this one's getting pretty long, and if anyone need to know - I've got a big jug of coffee sitting here that I don't wanna waste...plus those yummy pistachio nuts are starting to run out... grrrr

Apparently Woody Tobias has no understanding of what an expression is. The only point I was making is that if Kuwait was not filthy rich with oil, we wouldn't have cared about the fact that Iraq invaded. Sorry to have to spell it out. Okay, I'm done everyone. You're all right and I'm wrong. America is perfect and infallible. Our leaders always tell the truth, even Clinton and Nixon. We have never comitted a single atrocity. And by dropping bombs on the citizens of Afghanistan, we're saving them. Praise you all, I finally see the light!

Is Buddha32 now shanpoo? I'm new here and don't know all the players. But they sound one in the same. I am very familiar with expressions. Expressions convey something meaningful in a concise manner, like don't throw the baby out with the bath water. "teeny little countries get invaded every day" is not an expression. It is complete disinformation that has no basis in fact. And when challenged to back up such a wild claim with proof nothing is offered. The paragraph that starts with, "Okay, I'm done everyone." is a classic response from a person who tried acting like an authority on politics, history and current events and eventually realized that they were factually ill prepared for the debate. People's emotions are running high. I can understand and respect that, but I am disagreeing with and trying to debate baseless accusations and distortions of historical events. If you want to scold Americans go right ahead. More power to ya, but it would better help your cause if you stuck to attacking our real evils instead of ones you've simply concocted from whole cloth. peace

meow!

No, I did not become shanpoo, I just forgot to log her off and me in... now everyone will be pissed at her too. Another thing about an expression is that it is not meant to be taken literally. No one in his/her right mind would really "throw the baby out with the bath water" would they? Of course not. So warning someone not to do so is a moot point. Of course I didn't mean literally that small countries are invaded on a daily basis. I really didn't think I would have to point that out, but apparently some people need special assistance. What I was using metaphor to illustrate is that countries in many parts of the world, most notably those known as "third world" countries and those that occupy the area known as the middle east are often the sites of war, turmoil, and, yes, invasion. The United States does not concern itself with all of these wars, aggressions, and skirmishes. Many of the times that we do get involved we get spoon fed a lot of moral rhetoric by our leaders. This was extremely prevelant in the case of the Gulf War. And I still firmly believe that the "naked aggression" of Hussein's Iraq would have been ignored had it not been for the Kuwaiti oil that we stood to lose. I hope you got it that time, because I am not going to try and explain the concepts of metaphor, similie, and figures of speech anymore. So please stop picking apart the details and understand the point I am making. I could care less whether you agree with it or not. The message's theme was not that "teeny countries get invaded every day." It was the aforementioned "selective involvement" of the US in this particular case. Sheesh. And I mean it this time, I'm done.

Buddha32 wrote: "Another thing about an expression is that it is not meant to be taken literally. No one in his/her right mind would really "throw the baby out with the bath water" would they?" I just have to laugh at this. Expressions contain meanings that point to a truth. They are comparisons to a tried and true concept. Your statement that teeny countries get invaded every day can only point to a lie. for you to now call it an expression and then preach to me what an expression is just plain funny. I don't mean to be heartless but you have no facts to back up your wild claim that America stands idly by while non-oil producing countries get envaded on a regular basis. Name one. Buddha32 wrote: "What I was using metaphor to illustrate is that countries in many parts of the world, most notably those known as "third world" countries and those that occupy the area known as the middle east are often the sites of war, turmoil, and, yes, invasion. The United States does not concern itself with all of these wars, aggressions, and skirmishes." Your desperate rationale fails to take into account that I wasn't talking about the Kuwaiti people rising up and overthrowing their government or engaging in civil war. If that had happened, as has occured elsewhere, America would not have responded with our own blood, oil or no oil. But this WAS an invasion which if left to stand would have meant that a country had disappeared. That is what I originally said and that is what is still supported by the facts -- not just figures of speech. You still can't site real-life examples to back your claim that countries other than Kuwait have been deleted from the face of the earth by invasion. It is no wonder you deal in vagueries because the facts don't support you. Buddha32 wrote: "The message's theme was not that "teeny countries get invaded every day." It was the aforementioned "selective involvement" of the US in this particular case." You took a quote of mine and responded directly to it with an absurd assertion that teeny countries get invaded every day. I challenge you again to name a country that has been removed from the map that America has failed to defend. You can't. I guess we know why you are done. At least I know now that, by your own admission, what you say isn't necessarily what you mean. That will help greatly when reading your future dubious assertions. peace

Small little piece of info overlooked: Kuwait is a member of the United Nations. Countries that do NOT abide by the laws set down by the UN don't get the protection the members of the UN because they aren't a member. Kuwait had oil, too, and therefore had alot more interests to protect and joined the UN probably for that reason. Iraq claims that hundreds of years ago Kuwait was part of Iraq and Saddam Hussein decided centuries later to go and "take it back". If someone steals your land it's usually an understandable practice to deal with it right away and not centuries later after anyone who had anything to do with it is long dead.

Sadly, Edriver, thats not the case anymore. One can see several land claims in the courts even now, based on ill-written and ill-meant treaties from centuries ago. In some respects, its quite understandable; in others, it makes little sense beyond sheer avarice. And sometimes it feels quite like litigation for the simple enjoyment of being in court. Mr. Orwell was quite right; we have all gone quietly mad.

[[Iraq claims that hundreds of years ago Kuwait was part of Iraq and Saddam Hussein decided centuries later to go and "take it back". ]] Exactly what the Israelis did to the people whose families had been living in what is now Israel for the last 2,000 years. "Oh, you've got a deed that goes all the way back to before the Ottoman Empire and your family has been living in this house for over 1,000 years? Too bad, your deed was not issued by the state of Israel so it's not valid. Get out!" Don't say they didn't - because they DID. ****** (Where did I put those asbestos garments?)

You are absolutely right Allen9. And before that, the Saracens kicked out the Jews after they had called it home for thousands of years. And the Jews wiped out its former inhabitants, the Canaanites. And so on, and so on. People have been killing people over land for so long that we cant even remember where it all began. I have little faith that we will ever gain enough wisdom to stop. I fear that the only solution we will come up with is the annihilation of the human race. I tire of this whole debate. I think Ill shut up now.

edriver wrote: "Small little piece of info overlooked: Kuwait is a member of the United Nations. Countries that do NOT abide by the laws set down by the UN don't get the protection the members of the UN because they aren't a member. Kuwait had oil, too, and therefore had alot more interests to protect and joined the UN probably for that reason." I pointed this out when I first jumped into this discussion up at number 64. It still doesn't address my point that no nation I know of (UN member or otherwise) has been made to dissappeared from the face of the earth since America has been a super power. Kuwait was to be no more after Iraq invaded. Whether or not it had oil or was a UN member, it would have set an unacceptable precedent for all other countries to allow Kuwait to vanish. Domestic revolutions and civil wars in a country, UN member or not, are something America and the UN tries to mediate and help reconcile, but the kind of naked agression carried out by Iraq forced America (the strongest nation) and the UN to act and act in a big way.

Actually, even now, Indonesia has been called on the UN carpet for invading and pretty well obliterating the countries of East Timor, the Republik Maluku, and Acheh. Further, while it has not completely taken it, Turkey has commandeered one-third of the island of Cyprus and hopes to take it completely. These were just as nakedly agressive as Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, but I daresay that because of their tiny size, hardly anyone noticed or cared. The issue of Indonesia has been before the UN Security Council for almost two decades, with no resolution in sight because Indonesia "claims" it will grant Timor (and Timor only) independence if a "special referendum" says this is what the Timor people want. That referendum has been stalled several times as Indonesia continues to move more Javanese into Timor in an attempt to influence the outcome. For all intents and purposes, Timor, like the other two, does not exist as a nation. Neither, it seems, does the departure of the Turks from Cyprus seem likely. At the risk of being forced to don my asbestos suit, perhaps someone can say where the line is drawn that makes one invasion offensive and another simply an annoyance? As much as we wish to pretend otherwise, we do indeed pick and choose what we will stand and what we will not. Germany's extermination of the Jews in the late 30s was considered an "internal affair" by the US (Remember the boatload of Jews that was turned back from New York harbour out of fear our taking them in would offend Hitler?); it wasnt until the invasions of Poland and France that the US took note of what was going on and decided to act. Thats not a slam, my friends, its a simple fact of history. East Timor and its tiny little sisters are simply too small and too unimportant for the big powers to notice, much less care about. Even now, in Afghanistan, were seeing a small example of bad decisions coming home to roost: the rightful king of Afghanistan, perceived to be supported by the Russians, was thrown out by forces supported by the US, as it was in conflict with the then-Soviet Union. However, the US failed to anticipate that the forces it was supporting would turn on it. I make no judgment call about the moral rightness or wrongness of those actions, but I believe we must accept some responsibility for their being there in the first place as we procede to clean up the mess we, in some small part, created.

VirtualSite, the operative line in your statement is, "For all intents and purposes" The governemnts of Timor, Maluku, Acheh, and Cyprus still exist, the regimes might be puppets of a victorious foe, but they still exist. For that matter the USSR overran most of East Europe and took control, but they left to those country's inhabitants their nationalities. However Kuwait was to become Iraq, never to be Kuwait again. Kuwati nationals abroad would have had no country left to come home to. I never claimed there were no wars or naked agressions in the world. Wars between nations, no matter what their sizes, are too numerous for America to militarily choose sides and shed blood. But as I said before, if a country is left to disappear, its citizens de-nationalized, it sets an unacceptable precedent for the UN members and the rest of the world. The UN had to act for Kuwait, oil or no oil, tiny or big.

Actually, Maliku and Acheh no longer exist at all. Timor exists only as a subsidy of Indonesia, in the same way that the former Republic of Texas is now a state. Cyprus exists, but only in the most shallow of forms. The other three are not even puppet regimes: they simply are not there as countries.

Actually Acheh and Maluku around 1949, at a time when the UN had little influence in the world and superpower was not a word, were caught up in a transfer of territories between The Netherlands and the United States of Indonesia and have been seeking independence since. This is a longstanding insurrection, something we can only guess might be taking place today in "Southern" Iraq if our generation had let Saddam's invasion stand. I dare say your example does not carry similarities to what happened to the soveriegn nation of Kuwait. Aiding insurrection in colonies that were annexed at a time when the UN was little more than a neat idea finally starting to gel and the US & Europe were trying to get NATO off the ground, does not bolster Buddha32's blame the heartless, oil-greedy American superpower coalition first argument. If this is the closest example to be proffered, then it is clear that what happened to Kuwait is not some "everyday" occurrence that America regularly lets happen around the world if oil or riches are not at stake. This is after all the idea that Buddha32 was trying to convey, and it is just not true.

That would be all well and good, except that Indonesia has been pressured by the UN for twenty years to release all three countries from its domination, and it has adamantly refused. Whether or not it is "appropriate" for the US to get involved is, Im afraid, simply academic. Indonesia has been told to release them, and it has chosen not to. And no one seems to care all that much. Anyway, be all this as it may. It doesnt take much to realize that we do indeed pick and choose what we wish to get involved in, which was, after all, Buddhas original point. Whatever the criteria may be, there still exists this line that demarks what is or isnt worth our involvement. And it makes sense that there should be one: we cant be everywhere, after all.

Of course we pick and choose our fights. I too said this long ago. But the point I made, which Buddha32 immediately attacked without facts, is still being danced around. Indonesia has had those countries for fifty years. If we were to try to build a coalition in our generation to attack Indonesia -- or even unilaterally -- with the intention of driving back an anexation that took place before most of our soldiers were even born, we would be the powerful aggressor bad guy practicing naked aggression crossing borders and invading a soverign country. At the momment there are many civil wars and fights for independence WITHIN countries that in order for us to get involved with we would have to cross long standing borders. Iraq crossed long standing borders. We did not attack Iraq. We fought their soldiers back from a land they invaded during our lifetime. It was only later in the discussion that Buddha32 suddenly decided to call his line "teeny little countries get invaded every day" an expression and alter his stance to include internal conflicts and insurrections. I will say this yet again for it to be danced around: Buddha32 tried to make it sound like what happend to Kuwait regularly occurs all the time to teeny countries with no oil while we turn a blind eye. It hasn't in our generation, and the facts, as you have helped to show, do not back his claim.

Indonesia put in its "claim" in 1978 to East Timor, not fifty years ago. The other two were from roughly the same time, I believe, although I think Acheh was formally annexed slightly afterwards (Ill check that and make sure). I post that only to set the historical record accurately, according to the information I found on the web about the situation. Nevertheless, Buddhas statement does have some small grain of truth to it. There must be a score or so of countries the size of walnuts that appear and disappear on a regular basis; theyre simply too small to register on the radar, as it were. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, I found myself wondering one night how the world media, had it existed then as it does now, would have viewed Jackson's "Manifest Destiny" speech and the imperial assumption of the western half of the North American continent. They really arent that different, you know. We saw land that we wanted, and we quite simply moved in and took over, without much regard for the people already living there. We, of course, viewed this as a good thing: it gave us access to almost unlimited natural resources, land, countless new harbours for trade. So Im curious: what makes our "manifest destiny" good and Iraqs expansion bad? What makes one countrys conquest by force historically acceptable and anothers not?

[[We saw land that we wanted, and we quite simply moved in and took over, without much regard for the people already living there. We, of course, viewed this as a good thing: it gave us access to almost unlimited natural resources, land, countless new harbours for trade.]] And the European invaders & their descendants spent well over 100 years trying to systematically exterminate the original inhabitants from whom the whole damn country was stolen, literally at gun-point. In fact, every single act that falls under the definition of 'genocide' has been practiced against the First Nations people and our civilization has constantly worked to maintain the pretense that this was a basically 'uninhabited' land - never mind the over 500 Nations of people who were already here or the estimated 50-60 million of them who died in the first century after Columbus started the Invasion. But hey, we're ALWAYS the 'good guys'. mmmmmm-hmmmmmmm......

I got my facts straight about Maluku and Acheh: 1949. "There must be a score or so of countries the size of walnuts that appear and disappear on a regular basis"?? Where, somewhere deep in the Amazon? If what you now assert were true someone could name them. The borders of the world are all mapped. There are no secret, uncharted territories of the globe where countries rise and fall unnoticed. And "we" didn't take over North and South America. Our long dead predecesors did. Of course what happened then is inexcusable as seen through our more advanced lens of hindsight, but putting those things back is impossible. They made Manifest Destiny happen. To guilt those living today for their actions plays right into the hands of the "blame America first" faction. Besides, two wrongs don't make a right. Are Americans supposed to accept a crime commited today simply because people centuries ago got away with it? I (and Buddha32) have been discussing what is happening in our lifetime, in our global environment, during our watch. An armed invasion of a neighboring country is not something that happens "on a regular basis."

Im not blaming anyone, Woody. Rest assured that I have no intention of evoking that tired phrase "white man's guilt". I simply find it interesting that we refuse to look at our own past with anything but rose-colored lenses. Any attempt to correct this narrow vision of our past is viewed as "revisionist", as if we cannot even consider the possibility that, perhaps, we might have erred a bit as well in our settlement of the West. To delegate it to the sidelines as "not being within our lifetime" simply compounds the error, in my humble opinion. What is that line about learning from the past so as not to repeat it? Insofar as the countries the size of walnuts, I suggest you take a look at Africa's somewhat chequered history over the past fifty years -- countries that declare their independence one day, only to be swallowed by their larger neighbors the next. No, I cannot give you specific names, but rest assured that it does happen. Insofar as Maluku and Acheh, forgive me, but Id like to check that out. It doesnt completely jive with what I found on the net. Its possible I misread (at my age, I believe I'm entitled, on occasion), and if so I will stand corrected. Finally, your rather intruiging statement: Are Americans supposed to accept a crime commited today simply because people centuries ago got away with it? To be frank, I dont know. We base so much on our past: our sense of independence, of adventurism, of the strength of the individual. Today, those traits have all but disappeared from our societal landscape. Yet we revere what we were, and our Manifest Destiny is indeed part of that were. Today, of course, we do view it as Monday morning quarterbacks; nevertheless it is part of what makes us Americans, and we must accept the responsibility for our past if we ever hope to learn from it. Just my $0.025, tax included.

Hi, VirtualSite. I was not attempting to relagate America's historic atrocities to the sidelines. But if we are now supposed to hesitate in the face of an invader like Iraq simply because our ancestors were once invaders, we should relinquish our superpower status and get used to watching as "teeny countries get invaded every day" for real. We have learned from our past. That is why America isn't expanding its borders anymore, as Iraq tried to do. I would also like to point out that if you and Buddha32 (and most others?) can't actual name any countries in Africa that are allegedly being "swallowed up by their neighbors," that might explain why America doesn't get involved in their conflicts in the way she got involved with Kuwait. peace