You know what we really need in Poser 5, a SDK (software development kit) this is a software package that provides a stable set of hooks into the program so that programmers can use real tools to make Plugins for Poser. Plugins, as every Lightwave, Max, and Photoshop user knows, lets you take the software where it could never go otherwise. I expect Poser 5 to have very modest improvements. About like Bryce 5 over Bryce 4. Pretty much a waste of money for the upgrade. If we're lucky they will throw in the multiple views from PPP, the file compression stuff, and some expanded versatility in import/export. CL just can't afford the development costs to make Poser all it should be, must be if it isn't to become extinct. The major 3D software packages are becomming easier to use, and less costly. Python is a 1/2 way attempt but what % of the user base even has PPP? has to be less than 1/4. And name any other package that uses macros as an effective means of expanding functionality? With plugins we wouldn't be waiting 3 years for a major rev. Everytime someone publishes a plugin you add another notch to your feature list. Plugin developers have less invested and so can charge less than the developer of a whole package. A SDK will leverage what CL has in Poser and will allow its functionality to be built upon inexpensively.

first of all,poser is here for the long run,im serious,no matter what they do they will always be getting customers,theres no "low end" software like it,corel really screwed up when they did that to bryce,the slow rendering are what im refering to,(paragraph)poser can out run bryce hand over fist,instant feedback for what youre involved in,unless you really know the workings of bryce to get it to work for you as far as time is concerned,textures slow it down,lights slow it down,volumetrics slow it down,running in openGL or sree slows it down,(pargraph)sure poser has no raytracer or anything like radiosity or volumetrics but users expand the abilitys of the core program,im seeing a lot of atmosphere affects being done,globallighting has hit as has faked radiosity,fake reflections,transparencys,just about anyone can really jump into it and be off and running,the mass of freestuff(ooops forgot this.....paragraph)makes up for the lack of expandabilty,the users ,not programmers take it to the limits of thier machines and imaginations,sure plugins would help as far as development but will that set back entry level artists,people that want to use their imaginations to hop in and go rendering,(paragraph)see thats what made bryce so much fun,i.e. bryce 2 and 3,it was simple,light modeling and easy sky animations with landscaping but with 5,ive seen more than a few renders come in and say"after 32 hours this is what i got","this my render that took 10hours","after 24 hours i got this affect",i like bryce dont get me wrong,there is a lot to like about it,in fact a whole more right than wrong but now i see why (whoops forgot again,paragraph)they added network rendering to it,with poser you can have really complex scenes and keep your machine from croaking or having it doing one thing for hours and hours,ok talking about plug-ins what about this kinda stuff here,you buy lightwave or what ever,then you buy $1ooo worth of plugins the the next version comes out and its got all those plugins in the next version,if bryce doesnt fix that rendering bug how many people do you think are going out to buy bryce 6.0,whats everyone going to do go buy two computers so they can network render? CL is really doing what i think is best for poser,letting it rake in the money for them,propack is really expanding thier market ability but slowly,and i think thier taking some lessons from truespace and other mid-market apps not to get too envolved with plugins and waiting for theier own team to get things right the way they want them,then blammo!heres your next version its got this and this and that all in one a funny thing i am seen though is this alot of people with be apps are coming to poser for this that and the other and finding it hard to understand basic funtions but i guess thier used to going to the plugins to help them....anyhoo,posers got tons of extras already as far as plugins go that is and look at the way everyone has made a real community out of it,trade ya this for that,i got this i made in the freestuff,the stores are making money,plain ordinary people with basic knowledge of computers hopping in and going for the ride.......im all for plugins to expand my little bit of knowledge but im very happy with the way things are for poser and cl,they might not be and the programers may not be but i'll bet if you go ask most owners of poser"are you satisfied with this software? can it help you do in your art and do you think this is a good idea this poser thing?"i'll bet 90% of the poser related community will say "sure it could be better but i can create,i can understand 90%of whats going on here,i can get loads and loads of freestuff to expand the software capabilitys and yes i can hop in there and make money and this software can help me do it without(is this a run-on sentence?)a big fuss"........ i see only minimal things coming next... 1.expanded file capabilitys 2.animation expandabiltys 3.intagrated uv mapping 4.program intagration,like truespace and other mid-range apps 5.maybe some sort of sasquatch lite for hair 6.maybe some sort of scenery generation functions anyhoo i love gabbing but i looked back at my bed and oooooooo it looks so warm and inviting,so i'll let you guys chew on this a while and wake up in the morning to see myself read this crap and say"damn,i really am a retard!" cheers and to all"keep on posing!"

Extremely interesting point, Jamball. Almost couldn't agree more. As a long-time TrueSpace user I've seen how plug-ins can transform a great app to a fantastic one, and even those who don't know TS may have heard of Linux! Caligari has taken the idea to the limit, officially publishing CD collections of the most popular plugins. I believe they've even bought some of the best and put them in TS5. It's a great idea for getting a lot of extra brainpower into development. When I say "almost" above, it's because CL has to stay in business, too. I'm fairly sure Caligari has lost some revenues because of plug-ins. Personally, I opted out of TS 5, because I have a TS4 plug-in for almost every new function offered as a selling point for TS5. Some people even say they keep TS 4 because some plug-ins have not yet been ported to TS 5!!! One way to get around this might be for CL to charge a license or royalties fee from commercial plug-ins, much like the Marketplace here on R'osity. I know some people would say it would be unfair for CL to take a cut of the income from other people's software, but then again, without Poser there'd be no place to host such a plug-in, so I think I'd accept it. After all, it is in our mutual interest to keep CL going, what else would we be doing with our spare time (and money) ? You listening in, mr. Cooper? ;-)

Holy crap, wgreenlee used himself a few "laracrofts"... :-> All kidding aside, I agree with Jamball. 3DStudio has gotten where it is based on a strong SDK and an awful lot of third-party development (much of it free.) I thought the inclusion of a Python interpreter in PPP was a mighty step to the side... as someone who spent two years as a developer in a mostly-Python shop, it's more of a pain in the ass than it's worth. Daz needs to have a full set of function calls in the underlying architecture set up for potential developers. If nothing else, we could then finally have plugins to do simple and necessary stuff the interface can't... like, oh... DELETE ALL THE LIGHTS... (pet peeve) -nemo

Jamball77, I violently disagree. There are plenty of "higher end", customizable programs for people who want to curse their software. If you want SDKs, buy a Maya seat... or Cinema4D, Lightwave, Max.... Of all the Poser users (not the people who are active enough to post, but the entire set of users), there is a huge percentage who are basically artists, a small percentage who are basically programmers, and an even smaller subset who are both artists and programmers. Furthermore, by asking for only one thing, we are not likely to get anything we want... since far too many of us wouldn't want it! Carolly

"And name any other package that uses macros as an effective means of expanding functionality?" AutoCad. (Not like it owns 85% of the CAD market, or anything like that... And the macros are in LISP). Excel, Word, Outlook, or anything else in Microsoft Office, using Visual Basic as a macro language. Ciao! Joe

Hey, does anyone in this thread know there's another type of Poser user? S/he isn't a tech or programmer, or even an "artist" per se. Please get your noses down a little and maybe you'll be able to see there are quite a few hobbyists using Poser. In fact, I'd be willing to bet hobbyists make up the lions share of Poser users. I think the people at CL are aware of this. And they're smart enough to know that if they go beyond the hobbyist reach--in both price and functionality--they'll lose a good portion of their customers.

There's one further thing I would want in Poser 5... Support for multiple parent objects, somehow... Those who make figures will understand what I'm talking about...

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

I am reading (my morning ritual as long as can connect to the net), and wanted to add a few comments. The next release of Poser promises to be the most advanced update to the application in it's history. Lots of polish, bold new features, a natural work flow evolution; I'm confident you'll be impressed. But, sorry, I can't get into specifics about features or a timeline. (and because this question always comes up whenever I say that, upgrading to or buying today Poser 4 today is a still a good idea, there's a good bit of time between now and the next release). It may have been 2+ years since Poser's last release, but from the very start Curious Labs has always been about Poser and putting systems in place to develop and deliver the product. We do have to create other products though, one (as cool as Poser is) won't carry us. That said, we've been working on that next release of Poser for a long time, from the framework up, and in the process, stoking a few other irons in the fire so we aren't a one-trick publishing pony. Releasing a large scale commercial product like Poser or Pro Pack requires much more than just talented engineers. There is quality assurance testing, user interface design, product graphics, box and manuals (copy, design, printing), customer service, tech support, international sales/distribution systems and managers of those systems, international product fulfillment, web development and database management, internal hardware systems support, marketing, public relations, and product management to track all the features and development timelines. It's a significant team here at Curious Labs, and we need to leverage that team and those systems across more than one product. If any one member of this team were not in place, a major aspect of how you interact with us or the product would be lacking. Some say that may already be the case, and I would counter that most of us are working multiple roles and long hours as it is, and it's very chaotic to say the least. Hope you can be patient with us when we stumble here and there. But we wouldn't be doing this unless we had faith in the product and our abilities to continue bringing this product to you. We also have faith in knowing who you collectively are, and what you want from our product. That's why I'm personally great at Poser and 3D, and probably useless for much else ;-) Almost all of the other products from Meta have found homes now, and have been re-released in some fashion or another, some with minor bug fixes retaining their past version numbers, others with new version numbers and subtle improvements or minimal new feature sets. We were the first of the former Meta products to re-release, and we will be the first to have a major new version. At the risk of sounding trite- trust me, the next rev of Poser will be remarkable. Thanks for starting this thread, i need threads like this to get all fired up... you can take away my soapbox, i need a cup of coffee now. ;-) For reference, there's been a Poser SDK available for quite some time now. It's supplied upon request, based upon a review of it's intended purpose. Steve Cooper Curious Labs

Any chance you could maybe publish those wish lists in one form or another, Steve? A hit parade of wish list items? I am always curious when I send something in to the wish list... what are the most requested features? I know you can't add them all and some are not realistic, but I'm interested in hearing other people's visions of future versions. Phoenix

"stoking a few other irons in the fire so we aren't a one-trick publishing pony" I would have to disagree with that statement. It's what you do best. Giving all your time and energy to Poser will make it a greater product. Diluting your resources to output other stuff will only pull away from the production of Poser. I think every company goes through the phase of wanting to expand only to realize that they were better off concentrating on what they did best to begin with. Not that I would not support other great programs CL have hidden under their sleeves, but if their resources are strained already (as you'd implied), why dilute them further?

I don't really have too much to say, but I did want to make a comment about CL trying to produce more products than just poser... I kind of have a feeling that a lot of people here will think that it's a bad idea... especially since most of the people here use Poser, and would want to see all of CL's resources put into it... Case in point... the company I work for has been around since the 70's... up until recently we pretty much only made clocks... now, in the industry that we're in, the promotional products industry, we were (and still are) known for having top notch customer service, excellent quality merchandise, and great turn around time... so if you needed a clock, and you needed it in a hurry, and you wanted to know it was good, you called us... Well selling clocks will only get you so far... so the company I work for got bought out by another bigger company, and the put people in place that were forward thinking... we started making and selling more stuff... and we've increased our sales by something close to 30 percent I think... just over the course of a year... and that's with people still thinking that we only sell clocks, and not realizing how much other stuff we sell as well... our service and quality haven't suffered at all, because when you start making more money, you can afford to hire more people... So now that I've bored the world with my little story... my point is this... I think CL should try to develop other products... it will allow them to increase their sales, and broaden their appeal... thus allowing them make more money, hire more people, and put more into Poser than would be able to with just one product on the market... 'kay bye

Hi, Well, I'm of the opinion, mailed to CL no less :) That if they simply fixed all the bugs in P4 it'd be worth the cash :) But I doubt that they'll add the SDK, that after all is what the Pro Pack gives you, and they're not going to short change the people who bought that by providing something better to those who buy 5.0 I think that CL are wise to the fact that Poser is largely a hobbyists market, hence the Pro Pack in the first place, they give the "commercial" stuff to those who want it, the rest if us just get to play with dolls :) One of the things I wouldn't want them to change, is the renderer, (well, not that much anyway :) Since I happen to like the fact that I get my results in a timely manner. I think the longest I've ever had to wait for a render is 15 minutes, which is fine by me... I'd like them to improve IK a bit I think, and an "undo" feature would be great, especially if it meant that the "bug" that causes it to delete the active object if you try to load one with a corrupted RSR was now correctable, but other than that, I can wait :) later jb

For clarity- all products we have in the works (btw, an interesting new one is almost ready for prime time), tie into or are related to 3D, Poser and its future or 3D characters generally (our version of clocks) in some fashion or another. And again, if we had to rely solely on Poser, it would be quite challenging. We'd rather not publish our compiled confidential wish lists or a ranking of those features, because in some ways these could be a blueprint for a potential competitor. We are going to be adopting more simple surveys on our site in the not too distant future, that will have published results. There will be some feature-based surveys and those results would be publicly viewable. Steve Cooper

Some companies (can you say Macromedia?) constantly have their hand in your pocket, pushing out over-priced, underwhelming upgrades. In my opinion, the MetaCreations tragidrama that resulted in Poser's prolonged upgrade gap forced our community to push the envelope in astonishly inventive ways. There can't be many nooks and crannies in the program that someone hasn't explored and figured out how to leverage, and then fed their discoveries back into the knowledge pool and marketplace. Whatever Poser 5 looks like (canNOT wait), we will have had no small role in its evolution. That is a seriously cool thing. Tsk, Kupa, such a tease with the prime time comment (hope you haven't forgotten us Mac people). Coffee? Ever in DC? Love to buy a cupa for Kupa!

Developer and hobbyist here :) Knowing several languages, Python was a good choice for the Pro Pack. It is easy to create some quick and dirty scripts for automation purposes. It is also an object orientated language, supporting both procedural and OO development. If CL implemented a VBA (Visual Basic for Applications) solution, the cost might have been higher with MS's licensing. Hey Kupa! How about a little more detail about the new products??

It's only a few days out before I can share two cool things going on here at Curious, one that's good news for 3D artists on the Mac, the other for folks with hopes about 3D on the web. I'm looking forward to being able to break loose with the details... Steve Cooper

Oooh, I wanna know the Mac news! I'll be sitting on the edge of my seat.