Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12364&Form.ShowMessage=482222

You paid too much. There's a new program saying that if you have an illegal copy of Poser, you get legal for $129. I could've saved a bundle if I was a crook! Dumb me.

OMG...That's for real??? UNBELIEVABLE!!!! I can't get over that! What company in their right mind would do something like that?? arrggh!!! I am in such shock, I just can't get over it...unreal...I scrambled to get Poser 4 before it changed to Curious Labs from MetaCreations, and busted my rear end and made long distance phone calls to get it...sigh I need to go lay down now...

Well, I do applaude their effort to upgrade the users of promotional version of Poser3, and I understand the desire to get paid something for all the stolen copies out there but I think this is going to go over like a lead ballon.

It's not often I get a front row seat to watch a company shoot itself in the head. Popcorn and beer anyone? I can send Guido to the Tavern for refills. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

LOL If you're taking orders, Ironbear, I'll take a Guiness Dark and some popcorn with extra butter. :o) Hehehe Thanks! ;o)

This is pretty amazing, I've never heard (or even imagined) of any deal like this one. And to think I ordered all four Posers sight unseen the minute each was announced... Darn you Corel, why didn't you buy this program too? ;) SnowS Hoping his pictures are worth 1001 words.

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

One thing they don't get is that most people who do warez don't give a damn about being in the fold, or having tech support, or being legitimate. So the little kitties go on their merry way, and the legitimate poser community is given the message that the reason they have to pay so muc is so they can offer crackers a discount. (Thank you for your support.) Well, I remembered the little banner at the top of this page (look up... yeah, that one.... the one saying help us fight crime bla bla) and wrote a letter to CL legal airing my views.

I bet those Warez sites are using a lot of bandwidth. And to think I saved for two months to get my copy. Hummmmmm Na! Guess im just a sucker. Im one of them fools that think by buying my stuff legal I am supporting programmers so they can stay in business. LOL

Well, like someone stated in the referenced thread, I am speechless... almost. I guess crime does pay. Thank you CL for betraying those of us who saved for a legal copy, who paid full price (TWICE for me -- One for me and one for my son. Yea, I was truly an idiot!) and who constantly tried to do what we could to keep the pressure on the bandits. I got kicked in the nuts once by DAZ when I turned them onto a pirate. I made another mistake when I told them the same guy was at it again. Now you folks follow with a knee to the chin. Well, I HAVE learned my lesson. Thank you, thank you very much. You can take that "request" for help from legal@curiouslabs.com off the top of the page for all I care. It will be a cold day in Hell before a tip ever comes from me. You sold us out, guys, big time. You sold us out. And I cannot help but feel completely, totally betrayed. casamerica

Let's hope that this is because Curius Labs have started to consider Poser 4 an outdated version. One of the kind that you give away in computer magazines ;). Maybe version 5 is on it's way. However, it sucks anyway as I just bought a used version and I did pay $200. I could not afford to buy a new copy as the price in Europe is silly expensive compared to the US. Poser and Pro pack costs around $700 here. I suggested that they made the apps availible for download purchase but they said Poser was to large (pro pack download is availible but for US only). But they could have cut the app and the models into separate downloads. You pay and download the app and then you could download the models one by one as you need them. This could cut the European price with 30%-40% (making it level with US prices). To get it for a fair price here in Europe could probably have some effect on piracy.

Wow. To think that I paid for my copy at full price but could have gotten a 50% discount if I had simply stole it and waited for this offer to pay! Sounds like CL is running out of money maybe, why else would they betray one of the most supportive software communities? I think it's only fair if they are offering theifs a discount, that they refund the difference to those who paid for the program and have supported the company and their anti-pirating efforts. God, talk about a stab in the back! -Zero

calls in orders on cell phone. Shortly after, pickup truck full of kegs, coolers, and boxes of foodlike things pulls up and Guido and Terry begin setting up buffet tables. Help yourselves, nightmyst, everyone. If you don't see it... I'll call back and order it. Meanwhile... I'm just gonna pop the cap on a Grizzly and kick back and watch for a while - don't mind me, ahm jest chillin. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Wow. That's kind of shocking. Does kind of suck to us that paid for the damn thing. But, it's CL's decision. They may make some money.. and if they make some money maybe they'll be able to afford to make P5 not cost so much to the rest of us. Let's hope anyway. Anz

Actually, it sounds like a pretty sound decision for CL to me. There are a lot of users who "got into poser thru the back door". Maybe started playing with a copy Cousin so-and-so brought over & installed on a weekend visit & "forgot" to de-install after. Or "had this friend who"... etc, etc, etc. Probably hundreds, even thousands who picked up a copy of Computer Arts for the free Poser 3, & then weren't eligable for the Upgrade offer in the Magazine due to location, or got the back issue after it expired. There may even be well-known members of our community here who started on a more casual note. Not all of these folk would go the same route again if they knew then what they know now. By making this offer, CL stands to gain in several ways. They get the money for the upgrades from folk who want to do it right. They increase their registered customer base, which means that many more potential upgrade customers when they unveil Poser 5, and they'll (one would hope) score some goodwill points with the folk who benefit from the amnesty. Don't forget, without something like this, a lot of folk would only have 2 paths to get P5, either full price, or more revenue lost when they seek out warez copies after it's release. Don't get me wrong, I've actually bought Poser 6 times; once each direct order from the firm for each version from 1 thru 4. Then a "spare" copy that came with a 3D suite Metacreations packaged with 3 or 4 3D products a couple-3 years ago. and another I bought as a present for a talented friend who I was (justifiably, as it turns out) certain would do wonderful & creative things with it, & couldn't get it in the part of the world he was in. The only benefit for me in this offer is the same benefit all of us will get. This means more revenue for CL, which means a better foundation for the company, with means more & better wonderful things coming our way from CL. As a longtime member of a software professionals association ('though I haven't really had the time to code an app. in 8 years). I'm adamantly against warez & all illegal software. But I have to bear in mind that as the owner of Poser, CL has the right to try & convert the illegal users to legitimate ones by any means they choose. And all things considered, I like this method better than other methods I've seen, like Forced-registration-or-it-stops-working, or registering to get a software key to enable functions, or hardware dongles, or (insert your own most despised software protection method here). Anyway, I read this as a strong clue that P5 may be forthcoming pretty soon. Something to consider.

leather-guy, You got my vote; probably won't be the most popular stance tonight, but you're dialed into how we're approaching this. Kupa

I agree leather-guy. Nicely said.

Got in through the backdoor? Casual note? Get real. MY bottom line is that I paid full price, and now anyone who stole the damn thing gets off with a bargain, while I get told that I'm contributing to the greater good. Horseshit. Any company that uses unethical approaches like this because their bottom line is in trouble can fail, for all of me. What great benefit is this that is supposed to come about for legitimate users? Justification doesn't cut it on this one, not for me and not for alot of others- many who may not post here, but won't buy Poser 5. "They increase their registered customer base..." At what cost?

raised eyebrow, smirk

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

What is a full price? I USA you can get Bryce for 79 dollars and Poser for 119 if you have a studentcard. Well, I have, but I live abroad and it is not valid for abroad. CL sells Poser to my country for 350 dollars (not including shipping which is 70 dollars), over this we must pay 17 % tax at our local postoffice. Many people abroad now can get software at a price that Americans enjoyed it when it came to the market.

My gallery @ Renderosity

Depends... off the shelf at Fry's averages $249.99 I paid $279.99 for poser 2 when it first came out. I bought my copy of Poser 4.01 at Half-Price books [used, with CD & manual etc... ] for $149 last year sometime. August? That's straight retail - without student copy discounts. Student prices are better as you pointed out.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Thanks, Ironbear! ;o) Pops the top on her Guiness and pours it into a glass stein And Zero, I would love to be able to get a $100 refund from CL, but I highly doubt that will happen. :o( They'll give their reasons for doing what they're doing and that will be the end of it. Hopefully HellBorn is right, and P5 will be out soon. Perhaps at a lower price for an upgrade than usual? Wishful thinking, I know And Leather-Guy, you are most certainly correct; many people I know had started out in at least one of the ways you described, it is true--but for me, that thought doesn't take any of the shock out of my system! LOL But my thing is this: For the people in the Warez communities, the pirated Full proggie downloads for P4 are available with the 4.0.3 patch already---and they make cracks for the pro pak that hides serial numbers, and as soon as P5 comes out--the same will be done for that. We all know it will, come on. But my question is, if any of those who use pirated software are smart enough to not get found out by anyone, then why would they pay for it when they have it for free?? CL is NOT the only victim of pirating in any way. If these people are ballsy enough to download the illegal copies in the first place, why wouldn't they be ballsy enough to keep the illegal copy if they aren't found out? I'd be interested in a press release of the number of people they get to pay for legal copies at the end of the "offer period." Also, I have a question if anyone could give me an answer: How does CL find out about illegal copies other than people tipping them off and the sniffers in the upgrades? I mean, CL has to keep records of all those who purchase from them, I suppose, right? I was just curious (no pun intended ;o) ) as to how this became so big for CL in the past few months. Thanks!

Pls simmer down, everybody, and try to be cynical ;o) This seems to me to be what the germans call "realpolitik", or politics/policy in the real world. Warez are a fact of life, and you can't stop people from being tempted. Never mind the morality of it, those are the facts. But I try to be selfish in an enlightened way. As a legit user of P3-4-PPP I got the full version, including doc and support, just a bit before the warez gang did. I didn't have to "reconstruct" the manual by asking RTFM questions on the forums - I could dive straight in and have fun. When PPP came out, I was exasperated by Curious having to spend so much time and effort to hunt down warez instead of working on Anthony's CR2 documentation and on P5. Necessary for CL to stay in business, they said, and I can believe it! With this strategic move, I might be morally pissed, but now I can hope that Curious might be able to concentrate more on Poser and less on pirates - AND that this does indeed herald the more-or-less imminent arrival of P5, which I'll buy on the spot, like a lot of other people, pissed or not ;o) So, selfishly speaking : CL, go ahead!

Curious Labs... Nosey Retreivers? Oh well, I paid, I had a clear conscious. Tho, I've had more tech support on this forum than from either MC or CL, as far as being a registered user goes. So what is that worth? P4 is old, probably not selling many new copies. CL is a bizness, so why not try to wring P4 a little drier? If P5 is COMING SOON then maybe CL will offer a much better upgrade price to users registered before the amnesty date than for a new full price copy. That would be polite and good biz. Amnesty for pirates...? Foregiveness is divine...

So if I want to buy Poser 4 its like $249 now.
But if I have stolen a copy then I can get it for $129.
So If I just say I stole a copy (but I really didn?t) would I get the same discount or would I have to prove I had stolen it?

This seems awfully weird. Why not give everyone a chance to buy it at the discount and not just thieves.

I would think that people with stolen copies wouldn?t give two cents for a registered copy. True there is that upgrade path but if they stole Poser 4 they will steal Poser 5.

Caligari did the same thing with truespace, and while there was no messages from folks admiting to using pirate versions (that i saw), there was a huge amount of folks getting dodgy serial numbers so they could get a cheap copy of true space...so while this may seem a little wierd look at it another way, it'll increase the amount of users and maybe persuade a few software snobs to try it out and help push poser a little higher up the respecatabilty ladder near the level it deserves...just a thought.......Steve

It's not so much what CL are doing but the way they've gone about it. The community is accessible, it would have been so easy to write to us all telling us of their plans. Give us a chance to get used to the idea and shout off a bit first then say, 'well, we've consulted with our valued customers, and this is what we're going to do'. Simple good customer relations or good manners. I admit to being furious when a similar thing happened with Avatar Lab, but, here I am supporting it with my animations in the freestuff section.

This really costs me some time to think about it ...: There are several explanations for that (in my mind): Maybe CL needs money (and maybe urgent) maybe Poser5 is on its way ... who knows ?? Perhaps all of you who are crying out loud here should ask yourself some questions: Do you want a Poser 5 ?? You all know Software Companies need to earn money - the more money they earn the more ressources they can put in and the more ressources they are willing to put in. You want a bigger community ?? People doing warez are hiding (normally) in this community - I would do the same - It is better not to get to much attention if you are a theft - if you're no longer a theft you might can be more active. What is Poser ?? Is Poser really only the 250 or more bucks you once paid ? Haven't you all find friends here and aren't you all making stuff and (some of you) giving it away with a open heart (or selling it for a really reasonable price) ? Why not giving CL the same opportunity to show some heart. All of you who are dooming all this warez-kiddis - Wasn't there a time you were not able to buy a programm because you simply hadn't the money for it ?? --------------------------------------------- Yes, I know it's hard to know that you might have spend to much money in buying a programm - but may see it as your Hardware - the day you bought it you've lost money. If the memory falls a week later to the half you're also complaining - but also there you can't make this backwards. See it as it is - this action will get more people in-touch with Poser and this community -> and this would help us all - the users and the vendors as well as CL (fullstop) Schlabber

Hmm, seems as though CL have listened because the page is now unavailable. Kupa, please think before you act, when Poser 5 does finally appear don't let us buy it and then reduce the price a week later.

Ah, geesh. I really cannot believe this. Maybe they'll make the upgrade cheaper for all of us? Maybe Poser 5 is about to come out? Maybe people who got it through the backdoor will now go legit? Yea, right, and pigs may fly, but I doubt it. Think about the precedence this is setting, poeple! Honest user? Pay full price. Thief? Use your pirated copy for as long as you like and then, if your microscopic conscience really starts to bother you, wait for the "50% Off Midnite Madness Sale for Criminals" and then pitch in. Cheaper upgrade? Okay, maybe your addition is different here on Earth, but if I add what I paid for my Poser 4 to whatever the upgrade price is for Poser 5 it is still coming out more than a bit higher than the price the pirate paid for HIS Poser 4 + Poser 5 upgrade. I wonder... Maybe instead of prosecuting shoplifters we should just tell them, "Hey, pay 50% of the ticketed price and we'll let you go." I'll suggest that to my wife's employer and see how long his face stays red from laughing so hard. The only consolation I am getting out of this is the knowledge from years of fighting and working against crackers, hackers and pirates is that the crackers and pirates will laugh their asses off at CL when this hits the underground. And I now have another "real world" example to take to clients of how NOT to deal with criminals... at least if you want your honest customers to feel like you respect them and if you want them to continue to respect you. Well, from this episode, IMHO... CL doesn't and neither do I any longer. Say whatever you like, cheese up to CL all you want, flame me all the way to Hell. I don't care. CL just made crime pay and I have no respect for anyone that does that. casamerica

Ok... pops top on new beer I'm seeing a whole lot of stuff in the line of "piracy won't go away, so what's wrong with amnesty?" Simple. Yeppers. Piracy of software ain't gonna go away. It's a current fact of life for software companies. There's two things a company does about it: 1) You make it too damned expensive to indulge in piracy, 2) or if for whatever reasons you don't care to or won't or can't do that... Then you accept it as a fact of lif and call it a business expense. Pure and simple. Sucks, but there it is. And it IS a business expense. You don't placate terrorists, you don't beg a mugger not to steal from you, you don't reward criminals with buy backs and half price offers. It don't work and it never has. I'm not going to bandy words or play with euphemisms like "warez kittie" or any of that crap. I'm just going to shoot straight out on it: it's theft, as Schlabber said. And a software pirate is a fucking thief. If you do it, you come up with whatever justifications or excuses you want to, but it's just that simple. A thief steals because it's easier than being honest. A coward steals and hides behind political rhetoric and all the other BS that kitties feed themselves because it's easier than just admitting "Hey - I steal because I believe that it's my right and I'm prepared to deal with the consequences". Got news for Kupa. What's wrong with amnesty is that you're rewarding theft, and you're slapping your customer base across the chops. And your legit customers are going to remember it. This isn't going to turn a single goddamned software pirate honest. All you're doing is rewarding theives by giving out legit copies. When Poser 5 comes out, any who might have taken advantage of this offer aren't going to suddenly become legit Poser 5 upgraders - they're going to steal it too. Someone who will steal a $5.00 poser model from a vendor and put it up for trade on a warez board, is NOT going to shell out $149.00 + for an upgrade copy of Poser 5. They steal it because that's what theives do, and they'll steal it because they think it's cute to put one over on all of the suckers out there buying their software full price. Think I'm wrong? Ask one of the warez kitties that's a member of this forum. Pick one - any one. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Heh heh. Cas and I just cross posted damn near the same thing. We do have a habit of doing that on somethings, don't we Cas? ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Maybe the way it's phrased makes it look like a reward for criminals, but in effect it's not much different from the way that software houses often put out old versions cheaply or free. You can pick up any number of computer magazines with cover discs with free versions of old programs with a cheap upgrade to the new one. (Here's v3 free, upgrade to v4 for only $50, RRP $150!) Anyone who paid $150 for v4 might kick themselves and say "hey! I could have paid only $50 too!". But if you buy early you accept the risk that the price will go down. What CL are doing is just the same, except they are admitting that the free version to be upgraded might not have been acquired from the news stand.

Unfair! Unfair! Unfair! This discriminates against Mac users who can't find warezed copies! (Joke, people.) We have to remember the difference between 'unethical' and 'disappointing.' Both make you feel sad/mad, but that doesn't make them the same. I could whinge about having $129 of my paid price 'stolen' by Steve Cooper, OR... I could look at the incredible amount of satisfaction, community, and name recognition I've gotten in the last 18 months. Steve/CL couldn't take that away from us if he wanted to. And people, remember that the retail price was $300. I feel more bummed by DAZ selling the Mike and Vicky figure/tex/clothing pak CDs at deep discount after I paid a reasonably larger sum of money. But I have to remember that it makes me disappointed, but NO. ACTUAL. SKIN. OFF. MY. ASS. This thread is disturbingly like the 1980s trend of equating offensive with wrong, which got played to full effect by both ends of the political spectrum: conservative in Congress and liberal in academia. In America, this asinine attitude gave us... what? What we got for that was Tipper Gore begging the American government to step in and clean up rock&roll lyrics, and students insisting that several fairly mediocre books written by flash-in-the-pan authors be added to canon. I digress, but not by much. Assassinating Steve/CL's character won't do anything except make him reconsider the work he puts into keeping our favorite software a viable product. Whether this amnesty program is wise or not, I won't say. But I will say that realistically, it hasn't damaged me. Recent purchasers, OTOH, are entitled to gripe. Anton Kisiel was smart enough to pull all of his products he was in the process of improving because he knew someone who yesterday bought the 1.0 release of his Stupendous, Mega-Morphing, Bread-Slicing Hair would be royally cheesed to see the 2.0 release the next day. I would consider this: Voluptuous Vicky's 2.0 upgrade was nada. The commercial word processor on my PDA gave me a major upgrade for free when it came out. Both of these are praiseworthy recognitions of users as investors. OTOH when another PalmOS commercial vendor turned around and put their commercial product in the public domain because they found another cash stream, we felt screwed. That particular company has made some other unwise decisions about how to extract money from customers (imagine a freestuff section that required a registration fee for UPloaders).

This is not the first time that a company tried this idea - I remember that both Canvas and RagTime for Macintosh got a similar offer in the early '90s. For a limited time, you were able to get a legal full copy "in exchange for your pirate copy" for a modest price. I spoke to an authorized Apple dealer at that time and asked him if I really need to get a pirate copy first and he told me OF COURSE NOT... :-) Come on everybody - this offer is simply a special bargain offer coupled with a strong demonstration. It's something that makes people think about the problems of warez, and it is a positive chance to win some people back. If you have just bought Poser for a higher price, you are unlucky - but this happens all day long with everything. You buy a video recorder now, and next week it's $50 cheaper. That's life. This recent campaign is a very positive and contructive attempt.

A couple of years ago the Government here in Ireland did something similar with Taxes. They declared a limited-time penalty-free Tax Amnesty for those evading taxes.

Now that got most of the population really pissed off. Most of us were P.A.Y.E. (Pay as you earn taxpayers) who had their taxes deducted at source from their paycheques. The only people who were able to evade tax were self-employed business people and professionals who were already earning far more than the average compliant tax payer and here they were now being able to legitimise (without penalty) their ill-gotten gains.

It worked and many evaders were brought into the tax net permanently freeing up revenue investigators to tackle those still evading. The country benefited enormously as huge amounts of capital flowed back into Ireland from offshore accounts. (It was not just the unpaid tax revenue but the now legitimate capital could be invested in Ireland) This helped to kick-start the Celtic Tiger Economy, which has given Ireland the highest growth rates over the last decade in the developed world and we are all better off.

Now CL ain't the Government but I think I understand and sympathise with where they are coming from. However, I think there would be far less flack flying if they had said that this was a new lower price for ALL (including warez users) as a promotion prior to the introduction of Poser 5.
Perhaps CL might consider extending the offer and advertise it Computer Arts etc. I think they would have a far greater uptake and far less acrimony if they did this.

In the meantime pass the popcorn Ironbear!

Legitimate-Poser-User (first copy sold in Ireland) ;0)
STORM

Ahhhahaha, man this is just... horrible. Next bad step for me is if Corel did this with bryce. well, at least then I know all my target practice will pay off.

Maybe it's all just a lie?

Have you seen how law enforcement occasionally sends mail to all their 'wanted' criminals, telling them that they've won a speedboat, or some other luxury item?

When the people show up to claim their prize, they're put in handcuffs and taken away.

I really doubt that CL is doing that, I think they're just looking for an additional revenue boost.

Whatever 'strategery' is behind this, or whatever spin is put on it, it is a very foolish move. Thieves will still steal and they have spit in the face of their loyal, honest user base.

Hell, I only paid $117 for P4 on an Ebay auction when it first came out. That guy was kicking himself in the ass after that. After I got it, he started the bids at $117!

It's not about money; it's about self-respect. Unfortunately, money seems to count for more. Still, I'm happy and proud to support Curious Labs and Daz3d by paying for their wares. But that's me. Mike

storm, good head on your shoulders. seen this before from other software companies. it works. they bring folks on the margin into the fold and make some cash to boot. welcome site, i respect your posts but one comment- loyal users? here? only if they give you exactly what YOU want and nothing else. to no one specific, this is the pickiest, whiniest, bitchiest, little bunch of pig piling bandwagoneering ijiots i've run across. some exceptions here and there of course. you'll all run to the next release. everything they share here about poser5 sounds friggin amazing. mm

meta_mannix, we can track user clones here. Especially when new ones like you show up. Interesting comments from someone of your standing. Russell

Well, I paid for Poser 4 and the PPP. I paid even more to get an english copy of Poser 4 and PPP, since the german copy gets its updates much much later and a lot of Poser-Characters won't work correctly with the german version of Poser (Since all the bodyparts and all the libraries have been renamed.). All in all, I paid about 700,- Dollars for my Poser (I can't remember what I really paid, but I guess thats about it.). You know what? I don't feel the slightest bit offended, cheated or anything else by this offer. No, I do think this is a great idea. No one here can really say if this will bring in warez-people, but I am pretty sure that some of those people who haven't got enough money to buy a full version legally, will try to get a legal copy now. Actually I find it offensive if people star whining now, that they have paid so much and now it becomes cheaper and warez-people will get to turn in their warez for a bargain-upgrade and so on. It seems that this whole community seems to be based on monetary issues by now. You should be grateful that more people get the chance to use a legal version of Poser instead of whining about your money. I do hope that this community will get a boost of new users with this offer. I just wish that CL would offer a kind of "language-upgrade" that would have allowed me to get an english copy of Poser for my german one. Could I turn in my german version of Poser for an english one? Joerg Weber

As a consultant in customer relationship management, I consider this an almost unbelievable attempt by a software company to totally destroy its credibility. This is the stuff that makes great case studies to use in CRM seminars... Thanks! I would just like to ask: (1) Which customers does CL consider most valuable ones: The ones they already have and that have paid for their software and that without doubt will pay for an upgrade too. Or the dishonest, potential customers that stole the software and that might, if they are honest (!) enough, consider paying for it if they get a hefty discount by proving that they are thiefs? (2) Why does a company that is supported by the strongest and most loyal community I have ever seen in the software business risk its reputatation by legalising criminal behaviour? The very same behaviour that the community in question strongly opposes against in forums like this one? (3) Why should I pay for the upgrade to Poser 5 if I can steal it? It is after all OK with CL to do so. Three very important questions to think about. The third one is simple, the other two requires some thinking from CL.

I think this a pretty gutsy move on Curious Labs part. I have to salute them on this attempt to curb the theft of their product. I've never heard of any software company trying this approach and I will be very interested in seeing how it works out for them. I remember when I found that a Daz's freebe I download was corrupted. It was a few weeks old and I hadn't checked it when I downloaded it (Dumb, I know). I really wanted the model but now it was no longer free. I sent an email to Daz and explained to them my problem and within a day they had set up a way for me to download the model again for free. That act has left a special place in my heart for Daz as a company. The reason I rambled on about the above is that this act of Curious Labs may have the same effect on many people using the software illegally. The next time they see something of CL's stuff available in a Warez site they may think 'No, they made a pretty big gesture, they're diffrent from the other companies, I'm not going to steal from them'. As far as the money I've spend to buy poser, I've already gotten enough hours of enjoyment out of the package that I'm still miles ahead of what I spent. Besides what ever losses they recoupe from this will help make Poser a better product which will be better for all of us. And as far as competition, the niche that Poser fills they pretty much created. I have been using Poser on and off since Poser 2 and before that a product called Human CAD. There just hasn't been a human design and now animation solution that I'm aware of, for the home user before Poser. I have 3D Studio MAX and character studio, they are pretty old version's but they're mine. I've never Upgraded them because of Poser. I just couldn't produce the stuff from scratch as good as the stuff in Poser. Poser provides instant gradification and it's fun to use despite some of the bugs. (This is my hobby so it has to FUN) Just my two cents or 1.36 cents US. 8) Thorgrim

When I got the 3D magazine that had a free copy of Poser 3, I tried to upgrade it. Couldn't... So I bought a legal, unopened copy of Poser 2 on e-bay, then upgraded to Poser 4 for $99. In the end I paid about the same as the $129 they are offering now. The big thing is, I have had a legal copy of Poser 4 for almost a year. Yes it is anoying to find something cheaper after you have paid hard earned cash for it. The hard drive I paid over $300 last year is now less than $100 (and is a bigger drive). Should I have waited to buy? No, I needed the drive a year ago. Should I have waited, using the free copy of Poser 3 and hoping "some day I can upgrade this", or should I have upgraded as soon as I could. I say that having it sooner is better. My guess is CL knows the serial number of the free magazine version and will let those people upgrade. The waraz serial numbers are also probabley known, and I bet none of those numbers will be eligiable to upgrade. Even if they are, so what? I have my copy and I'm happy. I plan on upgrading to Poser 5 the minute is is released. Just my 2 cents. Peggy

LVS - Where Learning is Fun!  
http://www.lvsonline.com/index.html

have you ever seen amnestied soldjers alive afterwards? they are just databasing those who has a stolen copy, and then later on they will be blackmailing them. no need to fuss about it.

In fact I have seen a lot of amnestied soldiers... And most of them are still alive. I don't really think CL would ever be so dumb as to try to blackmail anyone. Blackmailling, even if you are blackmailling a criminal, is a crime. On the other hand, CL could change some illegal users (or criminals) into legal users who pay for their product. I don't see how that can be wrong. Joerg

Ahhh the joys of running your own business in America. There's nothing more satisfying. I know you're reading this thread whith your head in your hands Steve. So I thought I'd jump in here and cheer you up a little :-) ScottA

"meta_mannix, we can track user clones here. Especially when new ones like you show up. Interesting comments from someone of your standing. Russell " Thanks Russ - that's all I needed. At first I wondered if this was a legetimate member I had to treat like he rated. cracks knuckles Since he's just a imaginary member, I can yank off the gloves. "this is the pickiest, whiniest, bitchiest, little bunch of pig piling bandwagoneering ijiots i've run across. some exceptions here and there of course. you'll all run to the next release. everything they share here about poser5 sounds friggin amazing. " Wow! Its a troll with a hotmail addy and a clone user_nick. Not like we've never seen THAT before in any forum. And this one types just like a warez kittie complete with attitudes, no caps and lack of 3 active brain cells. ;] Gee, meta_mannix, who are you behind the pseudo nick? Old member too gutless to stand behind his real nick? Or a new troll just out to join in the brawl? Either way... you're jumping in way out of your weight class, bubba. "i respect your posts but one comment- loyal users? here? only if they give you exactly what YOU want and nothing else. " Customer is always right. That ring any bells? You get loyalty by showing it. You get respect when you earn it. And when you hide behind a clone nick and give off a puling mouthful like you just shot out, you get mauled by one of the whiney, bitchy pig piling bandwagoneering ijiots. You feel like taking a peice of someone? Try me. Don't let the other people clearing ground zero make you nervous. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

insulting CL or legitimate/illegitimate users. I guess, what CL is about to do (if it is reallyhas an honest intention) is to make sure folks use a real copies of Poser. which is understandable since they(CL) have their families to feed.A noble wish, indeed. since if we have let's say 50.000 illegitimate users of poser and if only 500 of them decide to puchase, it comes to a substantial amount of money for CL to buy a motion capture equipment or a 3d laser scanning machine later to be incorporated into poser 5 . I am just giving the idea:)

pulls up deck chair, crate of cold beer, potato chips, basket of fried chicken and a bowl of peanuts* The peanut gallery is ready... :)

You go Ironbear! Is that Kupa behind that MMmmmmmask? >>> As a consultant in customer relationship management, I consider this an almost unbelievable attempt by a software company to totally destroy its credibility. This is the stuff that makes great case studies to use in CRM seminars... Thanks! >>> Amen Kelderek and this episode is only the latest in a series of them so far.

Kupa? Oh... wouldn't THAT be frigging rich. ;] Surely Kupa wouldn't be dumb enough to think that he's dealing with an amatuer and try that, would he? smirk

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I am so glad no one here thought to actually check Curious Labs website before bashing them so fully, and feeling so hurt and offended. The price sheet at Curious Labs shows two price options for Poser 4. Full version for $219 U.S. and an upgrade price for $99 .U.S. copied from the Curious Labs website. ((If you have a questionable Poser serial number of any origin or a copy of Poser that was part of a special promotion (such as a magazine cover CD), you may purchase a fully legal upgrade to Poser 4 here.)) The amnesty price being offered is $129 U.S. for the UPGRADE package, not the FULL VERSION. If a person had come by a legitimate Poser2 or Poser3, they could merrily and legally upgrade for $30 cheaper than the amnesty. All this does, is allow all those magazine versions of Poser3 to upgrade, like MetaCreations originally intended them to do when they released them. Yes in this plan some people will be allowed to upgrade a warez copy of Poser4 to a legitimate Poser4 for cheaper than buying a full version, but they are still only purchasing the $99 upgrade package. For those of you complaining bitterly that you overpaid for the FULL VERSION, have nothing to really complain about, anyone wishing to purchase a legal FULL VERSION still will be paying the same price that you paid. Anyone in the enviable position of legally buying and using the upgrade, will be getting it 30 bucks cheaper, than those with dodgy serial numbers, so where does crime pay here? This still looks to me like a sound business decision, there are thousands of magazine copy Poser 3's out there, that can now be upgraded, and some former warez kitties, may choose to come in out of the cold, and become legitimate users, and buying other products, like the Pro-Pack, or a legal Poser 5, or the avatar lab. This can help Curious Labs, and their revenue stream significantly, which only helps us the end user, with better, and cheaper programs in the future.

What are you babbling about?

A thief pays $129 and they get an upgrade to the FULL VERSION

Your statement;
"anyone wishing to purchase a legal FULL VERSION still will be paying the same price that you paid."

shows ignorance on your part.

You're entitled to your opinion on the issue.. but should you really be denying others the right to their opinions, by telling them they shouldn't be complaining, especially when you don't even understand what is going on?

Tisk tisk...In reference to #40 Just stopped in to read....

I started out with Poser 1 a dog's age ago, so every copy of Poser I've bought since has been an upgrade on that Poser 1. All of my upgrades looked exactly like the "full" versions of that release (complete with box, manuals, everything, including a new and different serial number when I went from Poser 3 to Poser 4.) In every case the only difference between my upgrade and a "full copy" was the price. So people who buy the legitimizing "upgrade" are getting a full copy of Poser 4 (everything a legit first-time buyer gets) as far as I know. -nemo

Welcomesite, I do understand, obvously you don't. People are complaining they purchased the Full Version of Poser 4 for $219 U.S. If someone today wished to purchase that same software, the price for that is $219 U.S., completely and utterly unchanged. Now maybe this is too much for you to grasp, there is an UPGRADE package at Curious Labs available for $99 U.S. I'll repeat this again, UPGRADE, not a stand alone Full Version. For a short period of time, if you have a version of Poser, be it, 2, or 3 that normally would accept the upgrade, but is of queasy origin, and likely wouldn't you install and run as legitimate. You can now buy that very same upgrade package for $129U.S. and get the assistance required to install it and run it and make it legal. The bone of contention here is the fact, that Curious Labs is also going to allow Poser 4 users of queasy, or just plain illegal origin to purchase this upgrade and become completely legal in regards to Poser 4. However that does not change the fact, the purchaser, is once more NOT getting the out of the box, complete with manuals, stand alone Full version of Poser 4. That still costs $219 U.S. What they are getting is the $99U.S. upgrade package, with whatever manuals that comes with. Now you may argue that in effect gives them a full version, but so what, that is what an upgrade supposed to do after all, but they are STILL not purchasing the same, top-of-the-line boxed set Full Version, that you did. To purchase that, the price remains $219 U.S.

X-perimental Man, my copy of the Poser 4 Upgrade was exactly the same as the full-price version that I saw in stores. It was completely stand-alone... it even came with a brand-new serial number. I had to provide my Poser 3 serial number when I ordered it to get the upgrade price, but that was it. So either you or I are confused here... the Poser 4 upgrade, from my personal experience, is no different than the full version. The only difference is that it's cheaper and that the upgrade versions usually check to make sure you have a previous version of the software installed on your computer. But I can tell you that I got all of the same manuals, the box, the CD of extra goodies, all the bells and whistles that a first-time purchaser got. If anyone else who upgraded got something different, then speak up. I guess it could be so, since I got my Poser 4 from MetaCreations not Curious Labs, but I'd be surprised as hell to hear it. Anything else wouldn't make sense. Why would a company short a loyal customer by giving them a stripped-down version of the next release of the product? They don't... they just give the previous purchaser a break on the price, not a different (lesser) version. -nemo

Sorry x-perimentalman... I grasp the situation, despite your accusations. It is you who are confused. You accuse everyone here of being 'inferior' to you, because you went to the website and 'checked the facts', while all of us 'lesser' whiners didn't, before making our complaints. The only problem is that you haven't got the slightest idea what "upgrade" means. Your mistake wouldn't be so bad if it weren't compounded by your sanctimonious preaching towards the rest of us, when it is in fact you, who is wrong. WAKE UP!

It's a plain simple reasoning: The more legal Poser users there are, the better. Will the amnesty create more legal Poser users? You bet it will.

I've been hanging around here for a little over a year and I am not upset that I paid to much for the software,I've gotten my monies worth from it. I even understand the buisness side of this decision and the possiblitiy of bringing others into the fold. What bothers me is that in the last year I have read thread after thread about how bad warez is in general and about how threatening it is to Curious Labs. I remember the thread about how bad the Pro Pack got hit by the thieves, and I remember Kupa (i believe) saying that if it happened again with their next release that Curious Labs probably wouldn't make it. I and many other took that message to heart, many have reported suspected theft, I've personally convinced two people to purchase it rather than downloading it. On my forums, I crack the head of anyone who brings up warezing it. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, because their are people here who have done even more, hell one guy here even offered to buy Poser 4 for someone just so they wouldn't be warezing it. And in return for that loyalty Curious Labs says... "Hey you those of you with 'questionable' Serial Numbers just pay us 129.00 and we'll call it good". That's not just dumb it is something of a slap in the face of everyone who tried to help them out. I'm not going to insult Kupa or Curious Labs, I'm not going to swear I will never buy Poser 5, cause I love this program, but am I going to be as vigilant for possible theft as before? That is the question I think alot of people are asking themselves. -Moon

Hello... I am probably going to get nuked for this, but in the classic words of Nero as he watched Rome burn.."Fuck it" I have to say this idea isn't going to work. Sure, you might get a couple of warez people who wrestle with the whole good vs bad conscious debates... but you aren't going to get the heavy warez users with this plan. Why trade it in and part with 129 bucks for a program they use for free? Why would they risk admitting guilt, to have a clear concious?? I really don't think they care what people think... they are takers and nothing more... expecting them to suddenly get "religion" and fork over money so the software company can sleep at night is a bit nieve. Now for the BIG blow here Meta Mannix I certainly hope that you are not who I think you are, for if you are, then I am really going to piss off someone that I thought was a friend or at the least a good acquaintance Yeah well all run to the next release maybe. Some of us may not though, I suspect. Some are going to remember what happened here and what was said. Some may just decide to save a few bucks and go the warez route because CLs plan just encouraged the ones that the Community helped to sway into buying the program and be legal, to hold out for a few months longer and get it cheaper As for saying this Community is self serving, demanding, and our loyalty to a product is based upon if it delivers what WE want God damn right we are!! Welcome to REALITY!! We BOUGHT the program with the expectations of it meeting and serving OUR needs. If you dont think that Curious Labs isnt just as SELF SERVING when it comes to Poser then you need a smack in the head. Lets be REALISTIC here, the main and perhaps ONLY reason they really give a crap about us is to get US to BUY their program and keep them from having to work at a Burger King as Bun Warmers. We are CONSUMERS our DESIRES have to be met if they ARE NOT then the product fails and welcome to FAST FOOD!! This is an equal partnership here. We use the program, help spread the word about it, encourage the viability of that product and in return, Curious Labs tries to meet our expections in their updates and releases. HOWEVER, if they ever treat us like idiots, give us crap product, call us names and we will just get our products elsewhere thats reality, thats business and thats life. Get over it!! Jack

it will work though jack, but mainly legit folks grabbing a dodgy serial number to get a cheap poser.....true space did the same and reading various forums they where swarming to buy it yet all said they didn't have a warez copy, heck some even said they'd post a bad number to help out and from what i could gather caligari didn't mind....Steve

Personally, I do hope it works.. makes our jobs at the forums easier if it does. :o) But in the same regard, I think that it will also encourage some others to go the warez route, because in a sick and twisted way... it is sort of a reward to them. Jack

good point and i'm sure a few will feel it builds there case for warez....catch 22 i guess ;o).....Steve

It's a lot easier to persuade a person who's basically honest, to steal, especially when they are given a rationale such as this.. than it is to persuade a thief to stop stealing. Many of us willingly pay for our software, comfortable in the feeling of righteousness this gives us. Does this 'amnesty' reinforce that 'good' feeling, or does it instead make you feel like a bit of a chump? We were loyal, we were honest.. .. and who ended up getting rewarded?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=483286&Form.sess_id=1624161&F

Curious Labs has responded: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=483286&Form.sess_id=1624161&Form.sess_key=1007501287

That's not a 'response' It's just another plug for the amnesty deal. A 'response' would have addressed the disgust we feel over the way you are catering to thieves, just to make a few extra bucks. I'll bet you wish that you'd just included that serial number from the magazine version the first time.. and never mentioned that the deal included people with pirated versions. Why don't you just retract that part of the deal and admit you were wrong. Same effect in the end.. and you won't be pissing off your user base as badly.

Some of us have been using poser3 magazine copy for quite a while. Where were you guys when it cost only $99 to upgrade from that copy to the full version 4? This is our chance to upgrade. I really don't care about all this whining and crying and bitching. Just wait till I get my copy. It's time to give ya'll the run for your money. F**k all these naked women and stuff from twisted minds that turn around to cry. Let's see some real animation. Good job Steve!!! I don't care what anyone says. YOU ARE THE MAN. Boo hoo hoo :-( waa waa waa !!!! Get a life folks.

Cripes people what can i say i actualy started with pirate copy of poser but before the tut tut i did buy a retail version, one, because of the upgrades offered at the time 4.03 and also i was so impressed with the program and the community here i felt i would benifit more with a purchased copy (sigh!) (get the hankies out) than the bug ridden copy i got from a warez site but i wish the offer made by CL was a while back!!

Will the users of illegitemate copies of Poser please stand up? Don't even expect me to take the two of you seriously.

Well i was only echoing some of the points raised here that some people like myself do go on to buy the retail version and paid 225 whatever that will convert to $ and yes i like the rest of or should i say a most of the folks here look forward to the release of P5

Ohh isn't that cool. You can be a criminal and become from a wonderhand to a nice and beloved individual. I have paid 264 Dollars for Poser4-German-Version in Switzerland. And believe me, if there wasn't the time when most of us didn't have know if at any time we will find another Version (English) of Poser 4 then i wouldn't have buyed a German-Version. Because have all the time to do some special steps when packing a ZIP. (German-Version had a other file-naming-structur). Then when everything was clear with Poser, means their home was Curious Labs, i sent a mail to CL and explained my problem and ask if there is a chance to buy the english-version for a special price (In my Mail there was my full adress and the Poser4-Reg.-Nr.). And the answer was so cool. They told me i should buy a full poser4 english-version. And now all who had stolen it anywhere will receive it for a special price. Oh man, believe me, now i'm 100% not a satisfyed customer. Robert Egli aka SHARKEY

Shakey .. You can now upgrage it for $129 for the English version as well. Though the sale wasn't going on then.

Shure i wont do that for two reasons: 1. See the attached mail in which i asked for the file-structur of Poser4 english-version. I never received the list, someone hear from the community had maked a printscreen for me of the english file-structur and naming. 2. If i wait enough long i can purchase the ProPack or Version 5 for a butterbred and cake. SHARKEY

Just wants to state that not Anthony was the one who doesn't sent the list, he had forwarded my mail to someone other. SHARKEY

A Little perspective......... I recently bought a new computer: 1Ghz PIII 128 meg Ram 20 gig HD 32 meg. video card It cost me a little over $300.00. A machine like this went for $2000.00 about a year ago. You want it NOW..... It's gonna cost ya. That goes for anything in commerce. ScottA

My two penn'th, Maybe one day Curious Labs will realise that if they got the price right the majority of people wouldn't bother with ripped off versions, but would be happy to buy a legit version. To my mind anything more than 100 (UK pounds) is too much. By the way, my version is legit, but I think it's still too expensive at present. If the price were right, everybody in the world would use Poser, rather than just the relatively few afficionados that we have in this community. Microsoft has drastically reduced prices for some software (eg Visual Basic and MS Project, which in my opinion are close to worthless products) and have cornered the market when there is much better stuff available. Curious Labs could do the same. What probably stops them is that there actually isn't any better stuff that is affordable to mere mortals. Yet! Maz

Actually if the program were more cheaper or more expensive it still wouldn't stop a huge portion of "real" 3D people from bashing it it at every opportunity and they still would never use it.

"A Little perspective......... I recently bought a new computer: 1Ghz PIII 128 meg Ram 20 gig HD 32 meg. video card It cost me a little over $300.00. A machine like this went for $2000.00 about a year ago. You want it NOW..... It's gonna cost ya. That goes for anything in commerce." I've heard this argument many times. Yes, I am completely familiar with the concept of depreciation. That isn't what my complaint is about. The problem I am having is that an owner of a stolen or illegaly obtained copy of poser is basically being offered a buyout- they pay the upgrade price for something they never paid for in the first place. No-one has ever been offered the upgrade price to those who do not have a previous version- I didn't get the upgrade price for poser 4, because I did not own poser 3. Now the thief whpo did not pay for poser 3 or any other gets that upgrade price. THAT is why I am upset.

I've had legitimate licenses for Poser versions 2, 3 and 4 as well as ProPack so I too have spent a few dollars on the program. Now possible thieves can get it for less than I paid. Will this make my copy run any poorer? No. If CL did not offer this amnesty would that put more money back in my pocket? No. Will I upgrade to the next version? Probably. Will I lose any sleep over this? Not a chance. The value of most things you buy goes down as soon as you've paid for it. As soon as you drive that brand new car off the lot it is used. Look at the price drops on computers and memory. The list goes on ad nauseum. Life is too short to get excited about trivial things like this. Get over it people. Maybe CL needs the cash influx, maybe it doesn't. But more cash certainly won't hurt and don't we all want Poser to continue to develop thus giving us new and exciting possibilities? Piracy is a fact of life. Maybe this amnesty will eliminate some small part of it or maybe it won't. But right or wrong, at least CL is trying to do something about it other than just whining away in a corner or firing lawsuits at anything that moves. There used to be a phrase some of you may have heard. It begins something like "It is better to forgive than..." Vengeful thoughts make victims of us all. Don't be a victim. - Jack Valero

Here is a thought... I have a car dealership with cars for sale, one night after the dealership closes, someone comes along and steals one of my cars... of course, like CL, I'd be pissed... but am I going to call the police department and tell the officers that as long as they can get the person who stole one of my cars that as long as they pay HALF of my asking price they can keep it... Uh... I think not... In my opinion, CL's is trying to negotiate with criminals... This kind of mentality harms, not just their business but the business of ANY other software company out there. They are providing a way out for criminals with no punishment for their actions. I'm sorry, I can understand wanting to limit the amount of product getting snuck out of the back door... I think there has to be other ways than letting the crooks get away with the goods for half price, while those of us honest people pay full price... this is just not right, nor is it fair to those that have been honest from day one. Jack

Jack, I can sympathize to a certain degree with the feelings you and others share. But I don't believe this amnesty rewards thieves. If I have a pirated version of Poser 4 that has run just fine for me why on earth would I buy a copy even at a discount? After all, I've already decided it is okay to be a thief. A paper manual isn't worth that much to me and if I recall correctly the CD has a pdf manual anyhow. But if I am toying with the idea of using a pirated version this amnesty might keep me honest. If I've been using one of the magazine freebies because I can't afford to upgrade, well now maybe I can. Ultimately this rewards honesty, not dishonesty. As for your car analogy, it is not quite the same thing. If all your expenses as a dealer were development costs and the actual physical car cost you relatively little you might well be tempted to offer it half price in lieu of getting nothing at all. Face it. Software by its very nature is easily and cheaply reproducible so is not the same as other real world products. If I give you my car I lose this item. That's a built in rule of life. But I can give you a copy of my Poser and not lose a damn thing in physical terms. The software industry really needs a new sales model because the old rules no longer apply and they are not enforceable anyway. Maybe things like CL's amnesty program are the first tentative steps towards discovering that new approach. As for me I am not going to be bitter about this. I don't have the time or inclination. Old age just claimed a cat that has been one of the joys of my life for over 18 years. That is a thing worthy of my emotion. This amnesty...? Phttt! - Another Jack

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=483699

A few thoughts from DAZ. See Link.

Dan Farr

I think it might be useful to look at the pool of people who could take advantage of the amnesty. There are basically 2 groups, both of which have been mentioned in this thread, but which have not really been compared or contrasted. The first group is the hardcore warezers. I agree with those who have written that the amnesty program is just going to make them laugh. The hardcore warezer is not going to want to let CL know of their existence, let alone pay CL money. The silver lining to people who paid retail (myself included) is that the amnesty program cannot be said to benefit the hardcore warezer, who will continue stealing, as he or she always has. The second group is the grey market, the person with the suspect serial number, the person who "borrows" a legit copy to "demo," the magazine copy people, etc. I don't claim to know the details of the status of magazine copy folk, and thus won't direct my comments toward this segment, except to note that some of the people bugged about the amnesty don't seem as worked up about them. As for the others, did they illegally obtain Poser? In most, or at least many cases, yes. But to the extent that this is true, what they may represent is the customer base of the worst kind of warezer, who not only steals Poser, but resells it. If CL can bring this group into their legit pool, they not only make money from people other than me (which to some degree benefits me and you), but choosing amnesty may make it more difficult for this bunch to go back to the warezers for P5 (and I share the suspicion of some here that the amnesty would not be going on if P5 were not on CL's horizon). It might even be that this decreases warez, which again indirectly benefits me and you. As for the suggestion by JDK (and I know he probably knows more Poser history than I) that there must be other ways of dealing with piracy, I that CL proposed intrusive copy protection as way to try to reduce the warez problem. Despite the reality that it will never be eliminated, I do not think anyone should be surprised that a software company will want to try to do SOMETHING to reduce it. CL wanted intrusive copy protection, but listened to and largely accommodated the concerns of this community. I personally am disappointed by the announcement of an amnesty, because (as many here, including JDK, have noted) it does benefit people who have been in a grey area at best. Nevertheless, as some of the posts here have mentioned (including the analogy to tax amnesties), I understand why CL made this decision, and that it does at least potentially indirectly benefit the legit buyers here. Granted, I suppose CL could choose not to pass on the benefit to us in the form of a marginally lower price for P5. In fact, depending on the magnitude of the upgrade, and lack of info as to how many people choose amnesty, it may be difficult or impossible to determine whether CL does pass on the benefit. But I've seen most of the names in this thread at this site for a long time, some before it was R'osity. Having seen the type of relationship the folks at CL have tried to have with the community, I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt that CL hopes the amnesty will benefit us as well as the company. However, while we are making analogies, CL may want to consider that the recent history of the US in granting immigration amnesties is that illegal immigration increases. The program may impose long-term costs on CL that they have not fully considered.

Steve.... man, what are you doing old boy? Good lord above...

Heh heh. Cas and I just cross posted damn near the same thing. We do have a habit of doing that on somethings, don't we Cas? ;]<<< Yea, that's okay. And it looks like neither of us is going to win any popularity contests in here this week. But, you know something? That's okay, too. ;) Take care and Godspeed. casamerica

I believe what has so many (me too) distraught at the moment, is the sneaking suspicion that is coming to many right now, that Meta_Mannix who has been badly cursing and verbally abusing the community members and any who have criticized this "amnesty" program, is actually Steve Cooper, whom we all hold in the highest esteem. I hope and pray it is not, for it would be a heartbreaking tradgedy to be so badly spoken to by someone we all admire and have put on a pedestal. I would encourage Steve to swiftly speak to dispell this rumour if it is just a rumour.

Cas, Ironbear: I think if you go through all the posts (as I just did again), you'll find that the great majority of the posts agree with your essential point. I don't think anyone here likes a program that suggests that crime pays. I even think it's possible that it's shortsighted as a business strategy, and not just because it's going to upset some of us who paid retail. But is it always wrong to offer an amnesty? Since it seems to be a night for analogies, let me offer others. The simplest is to note that the police often pay informants or cut deals with arrestees to become informants. On a larger scale, since 9-11, I've heard and read a lot to the effect that the CIA was greatly hampered in gathering intelligence on foreign terror organizations because the sort of people that would have to be recruited (paid, that is) would not pass the screening procedure for human rights violations put in place about 6 years ago. I admit that I hesitated to use this particular analogy, as many people may have legit beefs with past CIA involvement in domestic politics. However, I think that this example, or similar ones that would probably be as provocative, demonstrate that sometimes the cost of dealing with shady characters may be outweighed by the benefits. Whether the practice of paying informants should reduce one's respect for the payor is obviously a topic that could be debated at length (though I'm guessing you would be more philosophically in tune with Kant than with Mill). In any event, I don't see your reasoned (though irreverent) opinions on the amnesty making you pariahs. But there's always hope for the future ;)

Just wanted to add that my opinion would change IF the rumor mentioned above is true. However, I try not to let myself be affected by rumors, and currently have no evidence that the rumor is true. If others believe they have such evidence, it should be shared with the community.

In case you're wondering, Cas and Ironbear didn't start this, I did. ;] I would have probably been fine with the explanations provided if their man hadn't copped such an attitude with me, and told me that it was my responsibility to help pay for the losses incurred by piracy, AFTER offering any fool with an unregistered copy "amnesty". I didn't buy it, I don't buy it, I sure as hell won't buy it anymore! I think CL needs to go back to "customer Relations 101".

Micheleh: It's obvious from the first post that you started the thread, but I was responding specifically to other comments. I also read the thread to which you linked. I didn't see any comment by Steve Cooper stating that it was your responsibility to help pay for piracy. On the other hand, it's clear from the thread that he did retract at least one comment from the thread. And I suppose it's possible he wrote this in an IM or a chat room. So I wasn't responding to what you wrote, although it currently appears that you wrote "you and your program and your company can go to hell" to Anthony Hernandez before Cooper's first post (though, again, perhaps there are retracted posts involved). Hernandez apparently did not respond in kind, so perhaps he can be spared Customer Relations 101;) From what remains of the original thread, it looks like Cooper was making the point that the consumer ultimately pays for piracy, just as every consumer pays for shoplifting. He also made the argument that the amnesty will benefit us. As I wrote earlier, I am skeptical, as there is a counter-argument that amnesties can encourage further lawbreaking. However, as I also wrote earlier, whether an amnesty is always wrong from a moral or ethical standpoint is debatable as a matter of competing schools of philosophy.

I am not going to post on this issue except to say one thing here. Whether or not this was badly implemented by targeting warez users at first. I am not debating on. What I think really needs to be addressed here is attitudes by CL employees, while dealing with the public on this issue. The sarcasity level is a bit too much for my taste. A employee of any company while dealing with the public should be calm collected and willing to dispel the problems without getting nasty and sarcastic. This has not been the case and I think that is something that needs to be addressed. As for the meta_mannix.. well i hope that the man sees what he has done and steps forward admit who he is and explains why he did it before it turns into wild rumors of a man we all have respected for the last few years turned monster. Stormrage End rant

And I have knowledge of someone ready to create a poser like product with the same functionality, better rendering engine, and better control, and will offer with proof of purchase of poser any version a 25 dollar discount from it's 100 dollar tag. Giving a whole new competor to CL

I am in general agreement with Stormrage, but would briefly add the following: CL employees should not be nasty or sarcastic with their customers. Likewise, customers should not be nasty or abusive to CL employees who, at least in the past, have tried to be responsive to the community. (BTW, lest I be accused of not practicing what I preach, I've marked a few of my comments with a ;) ... I mean this to show joking, not sarcasm.) meta_mannix ought to reveal his or her identity, not only to be a responsible person, but also because, if I've read this thread correctly, he or she will be unmasked eventually anyway, and will look even worse if that occurs before some sort of responsibility. Finally, if there's price-and-quality competition for CL, let's have it! I've always thought it strange that there wasn't a competitor in the low-price bracket...just thought maybe the niche was too small. If there's a product out there that good for that cheap, that's good news for all of us (except maybe CL, and even then...)

Hi, Ok, so you all think you "lost" some cash, well I bought the English Version, (in Germany) as soon as I was able to order it again from CL, (I was living in a cheap hotel, so I didn't have an address I could use for mail order :) I paid 660.00 DEM or 301.336 USD (according to xe.net) and still don't think I was getting "ripped off" I'd been using a pirate version for a good 6 months at that point, (because you simply couldn't buy it anymore) it took me a week to find a working version, after scouring every computer shop I knew in Munich without success. I personally have no problem with paying for "good" software, stuff I'm going to use a lot, hell I've spent lots of money (1K pounds) for an OS that's sitting on a '486 back in the UK, simply because it was cool! You can now get that, (or most of it) for free... (get.qnx.com) Am I bitchin' am I bitter? No. Why not? Because it means the OS gains wider adoption, and I'd rather see a good product expand and thrive than be backed into the corner of a smaller and more rigidly defined niche. CL should be happy that thier product is one that people want to pirate, because it means it's being used, by a growing user base, which is what you need in any healthy system, be it organic or in this case, inorganic :) The fact that CL may garner some extra cash to pad out the bottom line should be applauded by us, as it means that hopefully the company is healthy enough to last a while longer, and will continue to produce great products at what are "knock down prices" take a look at any other package that does what poser does, and you'll be amazed at what you're getting for the price. Admittedly they could have handled it better, as it makes the legitimate users feel slightly cheated, but a great many of those users will lack the patience or the knowledge to get hold of a pirate version anyway, so it's not like you could've got a cheap one too, "if only you'd known..." This is the sort of thing that Apple excells at, they anounce a new product out of the blue and loads of people are pissed off because they bought the old one yesterday... As for "outing" people, well, I guess some people do some very strange things for pleasure these days :) later jb

Isn't this all really just a farce? Can it really be called an 'upgrade'.. when the company themselves lists a serial number that you can use to obtain this so-called 'upgrade'? Assuming that a thief would suddenly wish to pay for the software they've been enjoying free of charge, why would they admit their crime, when they can just use the serial number provided by CL? All this really is, is a half-price sale.

I look at it this way. I bought my copy of Poser 4 when it first came out. In fact, I PRE-Ordered it. I paid full price because I didn't have a legitimate copy of poser 3 to upgrade from. How do I feel about the current offer? Shrug. No skin off my nose here. It has no effect on me whatsoever. It doesn't cause me to lose any money. It doesn't offend me. I really don't care what they're doing one way or the other because I don't take it personally. They made a business decision and some people are seeing that decision as a personal attack. I don't see it that way. And I won't see it that way, I have better things to do with my time than allow myself to get all insulted by someone's business decisions. Kate (who thinks this whole controversy is a tempest in a teapot)

Was going to step pretty much out of this thread completely, but since you addressed me specifically [and with a fairly courteous query, I may add], I'll drop back in to address it. Hopefully in the same tone and vein in which it was asked. "But is it always wrong to offer an amnesty? " No, it is not always wrong. I've seen governments extend amnesty to criminals with good results [historically], and sometimes spectacularly bad results. I've seen amnesty extended to soldiers whose only "crime" was just that they were fighting on the opposite or "wrong" side of a revolution or military action. [Wrong in the historical context that the "right" side is determined by the winner - they write the history books. Not justifying that, just observing it] I've seen blanket amnesties extended to the perpetrators of what are generally considered "victimless" crimes - prostitution, whathave you. Some of those are sucessful, some of those aren't. The concept of extending an amnesty legetimating members ofwhat to me amounts to an illicit industry isn't really analaguous to any of the the above situations, at least from my perception. This is not a victimless crime. Warez does a great deal of damage to small store front vendors including Renderosity, Commune, Renderotica, BBAy and Daz merchant. It does a significant amount of damage to small companies like Daz and CuriousLabs. I pretty well stated my views on how the bulk of the hardcore pirate community will look at that, so I won't rehash them here. Several other people have stated similar observations. All I can state is that in my opinion and experience, wether an amnesty is right or wrong is only determined on a purely individual, case by case basis, not on a blanket basis. My attitudes are shaped by my past, my life experience, and my backgrounds in various things. All of those combine to give me the general attitude that you don't reward wrongdoing. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, and I apologise, but that's the way I see it. In my experiences, doing so always gives a seal of approval to what your rewarding, wether it's an intentional seal of approval or not. Giving something a seal of approval says to other people that it's ok if they do it, and hey... down the line we'll get a seal of approval also. shrug I am not holier than though on this. It would be stupid and hypocritcal for me to be so. I've stated in other places that I'm a recovering addict, and that I was a street kid and a thug when I was a lot younger. You can read into that if you wish that I've probably done a number of things in the past that weren't precisely lawabiding, and I won't naysay you if you do. It took me a long, long time, and a lot of pain to get to a point where I was someone capable of having integrity, or worth being respected by other people. What I will say is that I strongly believe in personal rights coupled with personal responsibility. If I choose to do something that is legally considered wrong, I decide at the time if I'm willing to accept the consequences. If the answer is "no", I choose otherwise. If I choose to do it, I make the choice to accept what goes with the territory. I can look over that and it's rambling in some points. I guess what I was trying to get at in that last section is an explanation of why my stances on some things seem pretty hard. It's because it is black and white to me. My experiences have shaped me to look at it that way, and my continued recovery [as an addict] depends on my continuing to choose along a lot of black and white paths - drink/ don't drink, do or don't harm orther/choose to make ammends if I do. I don't have the luxury of living in grey. That black and white view shapes how I look at a companies responsibilities to it's customers. I treat my clients right to the best of my current ability, and they come back to do business with me again. If I choose to not do so, I choose to lose the confidence of my clients. If I inadverdantly do something that dmages a client, I do my best to make it right. Or I deal with the fallout from not dong so. As a result, I tend to expect other businesses to do likewise, or get called on it when they don't. I hope somewheres in all of that I managed to answer the question. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Very well said Iron Bear and I completely agree! Jack

Thanks Jack. Meant to put in the header that that was in response to kbade's well spoken question, but it got eaten by a posting glitch. ;] And we REALLY need a spell checker in the forum software. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

And we REALLY need a spell checker in the forum software. ;] Oh, I don't know... my banal came out anal in a message not long ago, and I liked that word better after I got to thinkin about it... LOL

Ironbear: I add my "well said" to the list...and I did not find it rambling.

Thanks. It was however mispelled. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

You wanna spellchecker IB? You can get a great word processor worth $159 for free over at www.warez4u.con ;-)

ROFL

rofl But, but, but... will it have an upgrade path? ;] Thanks PJ. On my way.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Not to beat a dead (hopefully dead) horse here, but people seem to be missing the point here.

Poser 4 has been out on the market for what? 2 years? Longer maybe? (I honestly can't recall)

I can't believe that all of you are using a promotion as an excuse to bitch and gripe about this.
Time goes on, prices drop. Companies hold special promotions to generate more sales. They didn't HAVE to use the amnesty thing to reel people in, they could have just simply dropped the price to $129... would all of you be bitching about it so much?
Who knows... I'm sure some of you would have, though not as much.
The issue here is that it appears most of you feel snuffed by this, but believe me, the mention of amnesty is likely intended as just a promotional gimmick. Everyone needs a gimmick to sell a product, don't they?
How many of you sell products either at DAZ, here in the Marketplace, or at 3DCommune? You use gimmicks to sell products, don't you?
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT CL IS DOING!!!

Admittedly, it seems their plan backfired just a bit, however, if you can manage to rope in a few people who were using illegal copies, and get them to pay some cash, as well as offer the discounted price and hopefully sell a lot more copies, then what's the problem?

Decreased prices lke this usually mean that the next version is on it's way or already released. Matter of fact, ProPack really is the next viable upgrade to Poser 4.... those of us who are using it's advanced features know full well how much of an upgrade it is, and how easy it makes things.

So, when you think about it, Poser 4 is ALREADY the obselete version. I see no problem whatsoever with them offering an older product for less than half it's original price... it's just how things work. Hell, look at Hardware prices.

Ron 'DraX' DeFreitas

Plenty of people made a similar point to yours, DraX, if not in this thread then in the related ones. Yes it was a simple promotional sale, but the 'gimmick' of the amnesty tag has clearly had a downside with many in the established legal user base. Most folk who complained subsequently said they didn't mind the idea of a sale, it was specifically the amnesty concept they objected to.

Plenty of people posted an identical reply in similar threads- in fact, it was you, Ron! Who are you really, and why the canned reply?

FYI All The (whisper the word) "amnesty" has in fact expired. It was only offered thru 12-15-2001, & at the CL site, Poser 4 is on Sale (much more Politically Correct word) price is $219.00. My personal hope is that this means that the release of Poser 5 is at hand!

Excuse me, Micheleh, this is no "canned reply"... who am I really? Ron.. DraX... same damned thing, I've been a member of this community for quite some time and had offered many of my creations for free to the community until recently. Damn... you post a message in support of what CL is doing and get the third degree.

Ron I wouldn't take it personaly. I made a pro-CL post fairly early on in this thread, & despite trying very hard to use emotionally neutral terminology, emotions were so high that a couple of random phrases I used drew negative feedback. I found the strong emotional reaction of so many to be a bit bewildering, at first, but a lot of the later posts were well-spoken. Personally, I don't think any real Warez-er reacted with anything but amusement to the idea of paying for what they already had. But I really hope that a lot of people who got P3 from cover CDs, or found it on a newly-bought used computer (without disks or manuals) or as a " you gotta check out this cool program....Here I'll put it on your computer for you..." gift from a well-meaning friend, were able to benefit from CL's gesture. PS - Great work on Musclebound Mike! - looking forward to seeing your updates. Once he has a good selection of clothes, I'll be using him more :-))