For clarifications sake, here is what is going on with our Amnesty Program. Do you have a valid Poser 1, 2, or 3 serial number? You can get ONE Poser 4 Upgrade for $99. Do you have Poser 1, 2, 3 or 4 serial number and already got your one for $99? You can get Poser 4 for $129. Do you have Poser 4 already? You can get another copy for $129. Does your buddy have a copy of Poser 1, 2, 3 or 4 with a serial number? You can both get Poser 4 for $129. Got a promotional cover CD serial number? You can use it to buy Poser 4 for $129. Have you lost your copy of Computer Graphics with the cover CD? Heres the serial number FA300BEE0032101-CQPH-011. Use it to get Poser for yourself or a friend for $129. Do you have a pirated serial number? You can use it to buy Poser 4 for $129. Have you already gotten a copy for $129? Buy another copy for $129 with the same serial number. Tori Porter Curious Labs

Starlet, i think there was also a lot of confusion about what exactly an upgrade gets one--CDs? a download of the full version? An updater program? A boxed set? Printed manuals? ... and so forth. Can you clarify?

The bottom line is, if you've stolen a copy of Poser, you can get a legit copy for $70 less than a chump like me paid, who bought Poser 4 full version. All the rationalisation in the world won't change that. You owe everyone who bought Poser 4 as their first Poser purchase $70.

Hi!
Ok, just for a little further clarification:

We an upgrade is a full box with a full printed manual, full CD's and inserts as well as a new legitimate serial number.

HIGHLIGHT: Legitimate Poser 1, 2 and 3 users who owned a previous version got the upgrade for $99. This promotion does not allow ANYONE to get the product cheaper than you got your first copy.

As a side note, We are not tracking users who participate in this upgrade for any prosecution what-so-ever. Let's dispell that myth right now. We are tracking which serial numbers appear to be the most popular (which cover disk, etc.) for future use, but will not be tracking customer data for this promotion.

Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com/trade/productview/31/10/

nfredman, the 'amnesty upgrade' appears to be the same as the standard upgrade, in terms of what is included if not the price. Indeed, the 'amnesty upgrade' product number in CL's online store is the same as that of the standard upgrade. As far as I can tell, this is at least a CDs and printed manual affair. starlet wrote: *Have you lost your copy of Computer Graphics with the cover CD? Heres the serial number FA300BEE0032101-CQPH-011. Use it to get Poser for yourself or a friend for $129.* So essentially this a straight promotional sale offer of Poser4. Anyone can use the serial number you have provided to avoid paying the 219 dollars for the 'full' version. BTW, wasn't it 'Computer Arts' magazine?

Curiouser and curiouser. My browser is showing post number 4 as being from 'starlet', even though it's from someone signing as 'Jack'.

I have worked at Curious Labs for over a year now. I have rarely posted, but read daily the posts on this forum. This is an incredible emotional and tight knit community that Curious Labs loves and supports whole-heartedly. Please, Please, Please when you are pointing fingers, calling names, inventing theories, shrugging off future purchases and crying victim remember that we are 3d artists, Husbands, College graduates, grocery store shoppers and members of this community also. We would never in any way try to maliciously hurt this community. and this is the second time in a year I have watched the community tear us apart. I am the customer service girl sending you serial numbers and answering your where to buy questions but flame me if you must. I go out of my way on a daily basis to pull strings and provide above the top service for all of you who need it. Why would I do that and work for a company that you all think is plotting to get people who we help every day?

Please remember that this is a product that you have all loved, used, supported and found propriety need for. Would you have really waited and not used it to pay $30 more than the regular upgrade price? We aren't the first software company to do this. Keep this in mind and buy one for a friend. You think that just because something is cheaper now than when you bought it you got ripped off, but this isn't just an amnesty program, it is a sale so EVERYONE can have Poser 4. Things go on sale. Buy it.

PJF: I didn't post that. I erased it. Must be a bug in the browser. Tori

Some of us have been using Poser3 magazine copy for quite a while. Where were all these people when it cost only $99 to upgrade from that version to the full version 4? This is our chance to upgrade. I really don't care about all this whining and crying and bitching. Just wait till I get my copy. It's time to give ya'll the run for your money. F**k all these naked women and stuff from twisted minds that turn around to cry. Let's see some real animation. Good job Steve!!! Good job Tori!!!! I don't care what anyone says. YOU ARE THE MAN. Boo hoo hoo :-( waa waa waa !!!! Get a life folks.

Some of us have been using Poser3 magazine copy for quite a while. Where were all these people when it cost only $99 to upgrade from that version to the full version 4? This is our chance to upgrade. I really don't care about all this whining and crying and bitching. Just wait till I get my copy. It's time to give ya'll the run for your money. F**k all these naked women and stuff from twisted minds that turn around to cry. Let's see some real animation. Good job Steve!!! Good job Tori!!!! I don't care what anyone says. YOU ARE THE MAN. Boo hoo hoo :-( waa waa waa !!!! Get a life folks.

Hey, startlet, i'm sorry they're whaling on you. All that's really Complaint & Debate material and should be taken there. i thank you for elaborating on the offer. Like she said, it's a SALE, folks! Fer gosh sakes. Personally, i think the occasional amnesty offer is very cool--especially for packages more expensive than Poser will ever be! The folks who are hard pressed, those trying to learn new software so they can break into a new trade--they all get a break at times like this.

I have avoided posting in the annoying mob below but thanks Tori. I think Renderosity is a cool place but it is amazingly quick to form a mob and people forget there are real people involved at the end of their flames and rants.

I'd just like to point out that I'm not tearing into anyone for anything over this issue - I'm still observing and thinking about it before coming to a conclusion.

Fine. If it is a sale, why didn't they just call it a sale in the first place? The term amnesty is used to describe forgiveness of a criminal act. Bad choice of words, CL- all this could have been avoided if you'd thought before posting. (Unless your original intent was actually to flush out warezers, but you're changing the story because of all the heat. Well, fine. I've contacted a reputable newsservice who may be interested in this little faux pas. We'll see.)

Newsservice? For what? ...Geesh

It's called consumer dissatisfaction. ;]

I said, This isn't "just" an amnesty program, it is "also" a sale. Just wanted to point out that the original intention never changed and there was no "faux pas". I guess I'll just return to my mansion on the hill by way of 1 of my 6 luxury cars, standard issue for all new curious labs employees...you know that's what they do with all the money they rip off didn't you know? :) C'mon people, time to let this go and let the company make some money to create new products for you.

:shakes head: Life happens. Things change. Deal with it. I know some are mad about this... christ.. I bought my copy just a few months ago and I'm a college student.. it was pricey and hard for me to pull off. But like someone said earlier.. prices drop (a hard drive metaphor, I think.) Yeah, it kinda bites. Yeah... maybe you feel like you're being penalized for being legit. But hell.. there it is. But man.. this is, ultimately, their business and they need to run it in a way that makes sense to them. We gain a lot for our investment, I know I do. Maybe they want to see if they can get some legitimate users.. thats fine. Maybe they want to get people to upgrade, great! This kind of hostility does no good, especially directed at the staff of Curious Labs. Yes, we live in a consumer society and so alienating your customer base isn't a good idea.. but how many people are going to even be effected by this? Some of us here, yes, but do you think that will strongly effect their sales in general? Life goes on. CL is doing what they think is best and this isn't any of our decision to make. Take advantage to get yourself extra copies or whatever, quit your complaining, get on with life. Life isn't fair. I hate to see this community, which I've been rather passively involved in but watched, which has always seemed so supportive and kind suddenly turn into a nest of vipers. Curious Labs is doing what they think is best for their company and we all, ultimately, have some stake in that - for our interest, hobby, career, etc... in Poser CL needs to suceed, needs to thrive. Ultimately, this is their decision to make - not ours. Will there be consequences, sure... What doesn't? But let them deal with those and quit flaming these people. Just my opinion... I hate to see everyone so angry. It does no good.

So you think Poser is a horrible product Micheleh ... It caused you personal bodily harm? Was defective to the point of personal loss? Made you sterile? Loose your hair etc. Those are normally consumer dissatisfaction cases and not the fact that you missed a sale or don't like the way they word or create their policies. And I am no way meaning to imply that you are any of these things. Just trying to point out what most comsumer dissatisfaction stories are written about. Just because you (the public) don't like it doesn't make it a story. I work at a newspaper and though were aren't the most hard edged thing out there and we don't dig up scoops/dirt I do have some background.

"C'mon people, time to let this go and let the company make some money to create new products for you." I have nothing against you, and do not mean to imply that you are uncaring or elitist. I am simply adamantly against criminal behavior being rewarded, and saddened to see a reputable company take such a stance.

Anzan and any other academics out there: Anzan, unfortunately it seems you didn't know, as with many software companies, that you can get Poser for really cheap with academic identification such as a student or professor's from your college bookstore. Poser has always been available for around this price in many college bookstores or if you contact us, we can put you in touch with one of our many academic resellers. If you are a teacher you also have access to the same discounted software channel.

Right now where I live the department stores are doing a roaring trade in sexy little black numbers for the girls and cool threads for the guys. In four weeks time the stuff will be slashed to 50% of the current price with a big SALE sign over it. Everyone knows this and still buys. Does anyone worry? Does anyone complain about abuse of the customer base? No.

I am currently building a state of the art graphics computer, in 3 months time I will be able to buy the components at about 75% of current cost, but then they will no longer be state-of-the-art.

From what I can see all that CL is doing is having a sale prior to the introduction of Poser 5 which has been very well flagged in recent weeks. Daz have done it with Vicky and Michael, every other company on the planet does it with their product.
CL have introduced one small extra in an attempt to broaden the customer base and offer a chance to the warez users to legitimise their software and become fully compliant users and all hell breaks loose.
I am seriously puzzled by some of the downright hostile reaction to this. But then again it has been a while since there was a good row around here.......:0)

STORM

Oh.. it's okay, Starlet.. I found out later. I knew many software companies had academic discounts but I never saw Poser in any stores at the schools I've been at and it never really crossed my mind. I wish I could have gotten it cheaper.. but that was months ago, I'd have spent the money on something else I'm sure :grins:

But they also had to recognize that some people feel k ahhhh forget it. and out.

Anzan, yep, money doesn't stay around my house for long. I graduated a couple of years ago and never knew you could get software for SO cheap. I mean the discount on some software (including Poser) is ridiculous. I just wanted to let others know just in case, until I worked here I didn't know.

Oh.. I appreciate the effort. :chuckles: that's how I got photoshop. It is nice.. I'm just now starting into my 3d Computer Animation degree.. So I'll be enjoying that discount. I can just hope 3DS and other programs have as generous offers. :Grins: Anz

Really interesting... 1. Just wish legal customers will have such a good opportunity to updgrade from Poser4 to 5... I understand what you are doing but at the same time, it sounds really disturbing... won't it be better for people to have an illegal copy of Poser 4 now and wait for your next Amnesty Program to get Poser 5 ? :) 2. I live in Europe, and bought my legal copy of Poser4 for $ 310 ! So, I would have got it for half the price if I got an illegal copy ? Really wish we'll get a great upgrade offer ( "we" means people who always got a legal copy ) 3. I can understand you need money, but why don't you make things people are REALLY waiting for : hair plugins, and such things ? I don't think a lot of persons are waiting for RT avatars... but a software dedicated to easily make conforming clothing would be welcomed... I personnaly think you should focus on Poser because an important community already exists... joelegecko

Should we know report illegal use of Poser. Ahhh, sorry i forget. Now all criminals become legal users.

I wasn't upset about legitimate consumers getting copies cheaper. I just think that people who have stolen s.n. should not get any breaks. Sorry, but if it's a stolen copy you should not get an upgrade price. Now if it's a copy from the magazine, fine, I have no problem with that. Prices fall and that's understood. I bought my copy as an upgrade since I have owned it since version 1.0 Got version 2.0 from MC for the cost of shipping because I had just gotten the version 1 when they popped out with version 2. You guys need to forget about catering to the warez crowd. If they were going to buy it they would have already. All you do is tick off your present "paying" customer base. Glad you are having a sale for other people though. Time we got some fresh blood in the forums. Marque

My total for Poser, just the program. (Poser 4 and pro pack) is about $700. Paid full price Canadian. And duty and shipping bla bla... Can't say I like hackers getting such a deal. But, as far as a sale, that's the way it goes. Does make me feel like a bit of an idiot for spending this much. No matter how I feel, I'm not going to go off the deep end about it. It happens. I still love poser and will keep using it. Like someone said earlier, no different than buying a sweater at full price one week and finding it half off the next. With computer stuff we should all be used to it. I paid 800 for my printer. A month later I saw it for around 450. I guess the reason the tempers flared is the Amnesty title...

Ohh yeah, and seems the value judgement too. SHARKEY

I think ultimately there wouldn't be anyone mad if not for the amnesty thing. I understand the frustration, certainly.. But I don't have any responce to the anger. It has its goods and bads and I don't think I can make a statement saying this is "good or bad" but rather, it's none of my business. I enjoy CL's products, I intend to keep getting them whether I agreed with this or not. The spirit of it, I agree with... let people legitimize themselves.. that's good, but the answer to those of us who bought our copies.. I don't know. We pick what we get angry about and how we deal with these things, best to let it go.. One can hope that CL does make some effort to appease the legitimate buyers in later releases - though that will not effect my stance I think it will do good for the bad blood.

I bought Poser1 and then upgraded to Poser2, Poser3, and Poser4. I purchased all of them when they first came out. I do not at all feel cheated. I am glad I have a life to worry about so I don't have to get all out of shape over something like this. Things go on SALE, and the word amnesty came into existence for a reason. A few weeks ago I bought a 40 gig HD for $129. Yesterday I bought a 100gig HD for $119 at Sam's after rebate. I am not returning the first one. That is just life! I do not feel bad about it (well not too bad). In fact, my first HD was a 20meg for $349. If prices per meg didn't change my 100gig would have cost $1,745,000. When 32MB memory modules came out I bought 2 for $1005. A few months ago I bought three 512MB modules for $120. Things change!!!

This idea of negotiating with criminals, offering them a slap on the wrist and expecting the Community of full price buyers to accept this sort of behavior from crooks is just too mind boggling for me to comprehend... It's fine if legitimate users get a break, sure, they waited and now they have a chance at a sale... But to invite the people that have been ripping your company and the Community off without any form of punishment? Are vendors now going to contact the people that stole their work and tell them: "Hey, as long as you pay half of it, it's cool by me..." Jesus, their theives, plain and simple and you want to reward them? I need an air sickness bag!! Jack

Got to agree with Jack. I'm not upset over the money and I'm not upset at Computer Arts users getting it for $129. You want to sell all the copies you want for $129, well then more power to you. It doesn't bother me one bit but... when you are going to let the thieves who were doing so much harm to your company 'go free' in order to make a quick buck, well then I have to just shake my head and say "Well I'll be damned." And could someone remove the reporting warez link at the top of the forum? Seems kinda hypocritical and useless at this point.

hehehe... please report all knowledge of warez to Curious Labs so that they can solicate them with special deals... heheh... Jack

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=483699

A few thoughts from DAZ, see link.

Dan Farr

Basic break down here, the price of poser 4 has dropped for anyone. period. "Have you lost your copy of Computer Graphics with the cover CD? Heres the serial number FA300BEE0032101-CQPH-011. Use it to get Poser for yourself or a friend for $129." even someone who has never had any version of poser can get it for $129. Also for anyone gripping about having paid full price in the past, get over it, I'm sure this isn't the first time you've bought something and then had the price drop sometime later or go on sale. Really the only one's who can really complain are the one's who paid full price RECENTLY as in the past month or so. Personally I didn't pay full price, I got my copy off of e-bay in a package deal (poser, bryce & canoma) for $200. This package included everything (boxed with manuals & all 5 CD's) I now suspect the person selling may have copied the cd's for themselves and then sold the original set to me. But as I see it, I have the legal versions. (and I have no proff of that anyway) Last note, I don't think that CL should use the term "amnesty" as this implies forgivness. just call it a sale ok?

I'm tempted to take Curious Labs up on its offer, except:

1. I don't need a new copy of Poser 4
2. It's the holidays. I have to spend money on others, not myself; and ...
3. I'm saving all my pennies for Poser 5!

Ultimately, this amnesty program will anger many people (some of whom may well forsake Curious Labs in protest), bring others (legitimate or not) into the fold, and have no significant impact on the hardcore warez-users (who won't spend a dime on something they've already stolen).

I can only hope that this issue does not split our community apart. We don't need another repetition of the Incident, with irreconcilable differences turning friends into enemies.

Each year, the schools churn out thousands of would-be Micro-angelos into a trade where only the best survive, and I'm certain the number of people using Poser in 'extended-evaluation' mode is an immense loss of revenue. Given the costs of litigation and the reality of what you can recover from people for whom necessities are a challenge, I think Curious is doing the best it can. I hope this year-end clearance works so CL can not only pay the help, but improve and fix the issues that make Poser so maddeningly slow for professionals that live or die by output. gf@silcom.com

Here is a simple idea.... For everyone that registered a copy of Poser during the amnesty, the get one of two free model/download. If someone registered their copy before the amnesty, they can get both models free. Just an idea, Super P.S. Once a kid has candy in their mouth, they do not yell as much.

And who do you suggest provides the model to download? The poser figures were purchased from Zygote, which is now DAZ3D and they are a totally seperate company to Curious Labs. Curious make software, not models. Or are you suggesting that Curious spend a large chunk of their income to provide free models to butter up people who are feeling put out over a sale rather than spending that chunk of change on development for Poser 5? I know where I'd rather the money went, but then, I'm not complaining about their recent marketing move either. Ho hum, back to other things...

Zygote's still around and makes models for different applications [strata, vectorworx as well as others :]] DAZ's a seperate entity if I'm reading right on the website. I have my own reservations about this, some of which have already been voiced regarding the illegal use of products. -Matt

So, I suggest to the people that feel burned, when Poser 5 comes out wait 2 or 3 years before buying it. Dont go out and get it right away no matter how much better it is or how cooler. Dont do it because you enjoy using it or make a living off it. No, wait and wait and wait until it drops in price (about the time Poser 6 is announced) then go out and get it. Meanwhile the rest of us will enjoy a great piece of software!!!<<< Or, they could simply use a pirated version of Poser 5, wait until the next "marketing move," and save a tidy sum of cash. Afterall, piracy now pays. Like it or not, admit it or not, that is what CL has just proven. The minute they included warez copies, they made piracy a legitimate outlet. Well, that is assuming that there might be a few pirates out there with a conscience. You see, those of you, including some of the folks from CL, who are doing your d***edest to make those of us who oppose this "marketing move" look like "whiners," fail to acknowledge one thing. I have yet to see anyone state that they were against a huge discount sale. All I have read is those who oppose kissing the asses of pirates. But, let me state this clearly and as succinctly as I can -- I DO NOT CARE WHAT THEY SELL POSER FOR! I DO NOT CARE IF THEY SELL IT FOR $199, $159, $129 or $99! THEY COULD HAVE SOLD IT FOR $59 AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED! BUT WHEN THEY REWARD PIRACY... THEN WE PART COMPANY. It is called principle. Now, do we understand each other? I didn't think so. I give up. casamerica

Attached Link: http://www.computerarts.co.uk/news/

You don't have to wait for a FREE copy of Poser. Just this morning I received a message from Computer Arts magazine. A FULL working copy of Poser 3 will be available in the January 2002 issue, Follow the attached link for more info. And please quit your whining!!!

And please quit your whining!!!<<< You know, I have had it. As far as I am concerned, CL and those who accept this legitimizing of piracy can do whatever the hell they like. I just don't give a d**n anymore. You and people like you have refused to even acknowledge our true objection even when it is plainly spelled out for you. Instead, you try to summarize us as "whiners" who hate it because it someone ealse got something cheaper than we did... even when we have specifically and repeatedly stated that is not the case. So, to hell with it! But everytime I see that "Please support Curious Labs and the Poser community by reporting any suspected illegal use of Poser and Poser Pro Pack to legal@curiouslabs.com." notice at the top of this page I am insulted. And it will be cold day... Be well. casamerica

This sucks!!!!! Man The 256mb Ram I bought cost me 209 per stick!! Now it's at Fry's Electronics for only 29 bucks!! I'm never buying Ram again! People, when technology gets old it gets cheaper such is life in the computer business. How about the new car sitting in your driveway? As soon as you drive it off the lot it's worth hundreds of dollars less than when you bought it. We live in a time of quickly upgraded technology this is the price we pay. My 2 cents AR

This lame tactic of trying to portray those with objections as "whiners" is old, and it's wrong, and it's just plain insulting.

I have stayed out of this discussion because I like the folks over at CL and I hope this promotion works out for them.. I really do. I understand what they were trying to accomplish with this "amnesty" program... but I think it is fairly clear now that it is a public relations problem inside the community.

Maybe it's worth it despite all that. Maybe not. I have no idea. I DO know that the public relations problem would not exist if this was a simple sale.

As far as I can see no one would be upset if CL had simply put Poser on sale for $129.

Not an upgrade. Not an amnesty... just a simple sale. Anyone who wanted it could buy it. Without having to go through the step of making up a bogus serial number. It's a nice gimmick... but it turns out that it has insulted a lot of people.

Since that is true... I can't for the life of me understand why it is that some people here insist on attacking those with objections as if they are simply upset about the price. They aren't, they have said repeatedly that they aren't and they have made some good points about why they are insulted. Yet they continue to be attacked that way.

To tell you the truth - it says a lot more about those doing the attacking than it does about those who they are trying to paint as naive children.

Just as a final input for some information: Any time the price of Poser 4 or Pro-Pack changes, other than small internal programs like this, the entire distribution channel price is effected and Poser is distributed world-wide creating many contractual issues with dozens of distributors worldwide. CL does not think this is whining. CL is hearing you. It appears the main issue in debate is the word "amnesty". CL is reading the posts and is listening.

"Any time the price of Poser 4 or Pro-Pack changes, other than small internal programs like this, the entire distribution channel price is effected and Poser is distributed world-wide creating many contractual issues with dozens of distributors worldwide."

Now see... that makes much, much much more sense.

So let me see if I understand this correctly...

• Curious Labs has the freedom to alter the price of an "upgrade" with relatively few contractual problems.
• If Poser was actually put on "sale" in the normal sense, there would be difficulties with contracts and that would take a significant amount of time and/or money.
• By setting this up as an "amnesty" program those issues where avoided while the nature of the amnesty allowed anyone at all to buy Poser for a reduced price.
• The intention was not specifically to benefit pirates only, but anyone who wanted Poser... but this 'trick' is what made that possible contractually?

Did I hit the high points? :)

"CL does not think this is whining."

I didn't think that was an official stance.. you folks have always seemed pretty in tune with the user base and it would have been very out of character.

The community is very devoted - it may be that this is simply a communication problem like in any relationship :)

A FULL working copy of Poser 3 will be available in the January 2002 issue But will it be eligible for upgrade?

Little Dragon: Yes, It will be upgradeable through a special promotion in the magazine. This is a seperate promotion from the discussion here. Tori

"CL does not think this is whining. CL is hearing you. It appears the main issue in debate is the word "amnesty". CL is reading the posts and is listening." CL needs to be answering, as well. Your customer base is waiting. (How hard is it to say sorry? To say, gosh, you're right, we didn't mean to imply that we're giving thieves a break, and offend people. Honestly. Show a little backbone.)

(How hard is it to say sorry? Sorry for what? I suggest you read your licenses agreement once again. I think CL deserves an apology for all the insults the company has recieved within the last 96 hours. Quiet down and keep posering.

"Sorry for what?" How many times do I have to say it? For anyone with sense, who was offended by a company who actively tries to stop piracy, to suddenly phrase what should have been a simple sale as an amnesty. (It means forgiveness of a criminal act.) Here it is in plain talk: CL is effectively offering a cheap payoff for anyone who has a stolen copy, in the hopes that they won't do it anymore. This offensive to those who have supported them against piracy. If I didn't care about the company, and the people here, I wouldn't keep trying to clarify this ad nauseum. I'm going to ignore your saying to quiet down- rude I can live with. It just shows you in a bad light.

Sorry for what? I suggest you read your licenses agreement once again.<<< You mean the one CL has chosen to ignore by throwing it out the window for the benefit of the pirates? That license agreement? IMHO, CL has made that agreement null and void by sanctioning one of the very things it was meant to stop. Afterall, an agreement is an agreement between TWO parties. To me, it is now a worthless piece of paper. >>>I think CL deserves an apology for all the insults the company has recieved within the last 96 hours.<<< A cold day... >>>Quiet down and keep posering.<<< Well, like I stated in an earlier post, I really don't give a d**n anymore. Truly, they can GIVE it away to pirates for all I care now. And pirates can steal it until the heavens rain blood. Because I really don't care anymore. I responded to your arrogant demand to "quiet down" only because I wished to state my view of the licensing agreement you brought up and because no one, and I mean no one, tells me to "quiet down." Not unless they wish to don appropriate weaponry. Game on. casamerica

The Poser community is a strong one with strong opinions and though I'm fairly new to it (got Poser about 2-3 months ago), from what I've read in these forums, it sounds like Curious Labs are ones that take great lengths to further the community. In fact, they wanted to honor that community's trust by spending millions to combat piracy, even despite abandoning anti-piracy methods at the community's behalf. So now, all of the sudden, they would turn on the very community that they need just because they want to screw everyone out of $70? Come on.

Don't you see? They are caught between a rock and a hard place. Now I am certainly not for piracy and I bought my copy for the full retail price of $219 (and just bought Pro Pack), but I got to think that someone at the company finally realized that it's not cost effective to prosecute Poser theft on a grand scale. Web sites that put up Poser aren't rich, nor do they make money, and so even though what they are doing is wrong, prosecuting them has no real benefit to the company. Sure, the guy goes to jail and CL is out the court costs. Taking down single users is hardly effective as it would cost more than $219 to do so.

The point here is that they had 3 choices as a company from what I can see from their reply:

1> They could keep doing business the way they are until their operating losses finish what's left of their assets and there is no more Poser or no more CL.

2> They can put it on sale to make the community happy about their previous purchases (which still wouldn't make most happy because they could have got it $90 cheaper now) and risk getting sued by every distributor until they were sucked dry in court.

3> Or they can try to raise money to use to further along their business and hopefully Poser 5. I'll admit the wording is unfortunate, but obviously necessary to avoid getting sued. In such a case, they can't just make one public comment that has the wording required and then under the table tell people "Oh it's really not that, it's this..." First time one of their distributors hears that, they are back to 2.

This is a legal game they are finding it necessary to play in order to survive. To me, they've made every effort they could to try to get people to read between the lines without saying it, even going as far as to offer a "coupon" serial number, but everyone is too quick to jump down their throats.

So the question is, do you want CL to survive or do you want to lose them and maybe their product over poor but forced wording? This PR nightmare will fade away, but better that than CL...

No, I don't work for CL, just an artist and a member of the Poser community like everyone else.

First of all, I did not say quiet down to insult anybody. I have RESPECT for EVERYONE on this EVERYONE. EVERYONE. It was not meant to be an arrogant comment. I am not better than anybody here or anywhere. What I meant is that people should try and move on. CuriosLabs is under fire for trying to catter to a broader customer base ( perhaps ignorantly WORDED ) The company is struggling to move the product forward and I think they deserve support, critism, compliments, anger, hate, love but not full blown vendeta as seen in this forum. Some folks here would be happy to be the one to light that fuse. Temper anger with understanding. All will be well. Secondly, I DO NOT support PIRACY. I am not rich. I could not afford Poser 4, but I could afford 15 bucks to purchase a Computer Arts Magazine that had Poser 3 for free. Since then, I have been posting in this forum on how to go about upgrading my version. Upgrading to version 4 costs $99, but CuriousLabs wouldn't honor my version for upgrading. I've been saving up for version 4, ........then this. Why wouldn't anybody in my shoes support CuriousLabs for bailing them out of a frustrating situation? Why would I be posting in this forum and bothering CuriousLabs with my upgrade requests if I support piracy? Poser Is out there for a dime a pop. I don't need that. I need the real stuff. It HAS to be legit. Nobody is saying anything about folks like me. We have all been bundled in the piracy bandwagon. This is my gripe. This is my stance. Anyway, that said. Once again "quite down" was not an insult. ( wrongly worded I suppose ) D**n maybe I caught the CuriousLabs bug :-). All will be well folks. Put this behind you and keep moving. Keep rendering. Keep posering. Be happy. Curious Labs will pick up the pieces. Believe me. ( PS: I do not work for CuriousLabs and do not intend to. Just another struggling poserer around the corner ) >>>and I mean no one, tells me to "quiet down." Not unless they wish to don appropriate weaponry. Game on. Oh..and also, Anybody that wishes to brandish a weapon should feel free to do so. I hope they've got a bigger one though :-) !!!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=485339

If weapons are what you need- try these! Site approved. > "Once again "quite down" was not an insult." Ah, one a'them language problems. If you'd said "chill out" I would've got it right away. ;]

Hi, You can keep my $70, (even though I paid $300 for mine, and from CL too, not MC :) The threads on the other hand, they're priceless! I'd love to stay, but I've been at work without sleep for 2 weekends on the trot and I don't feel like making it a third... :) later jb

ImagineThat, >>>Its to bad some of the people here took it so personal and emotional instead of looking at it objectivly from CL's stand point. So you think Creative is supporting piracy? How so?<<< Personal? Not at all. Emotional? Perhaps. Objectively? A simple reality, they openly included pirates in their offer. Objectively speaking, that is ineffective and stupid. >>>They are dropping the price no matter what, for everyone.<<< As most of us on this side of the issue have stated, we could care less what price they dropped it to for legitimate users, for legitimate buyers. But when you openly embrace the criminal element, then we part company. Why is that so hard to comprehend? >>>Will it stop piracy? Hell no! Will it change anything? Hell no! Will tons of pirates say "gee I've been a bad boy and need to amend my evil ways"? Hell no! But maybe a couple of the smarter ones will realize how nice it is to have a "real" copy of poser.<<< The smarter ones already know they dont need a real copy. >>>One that includes a manual. One that includes tech support.<<< A manual? Many of the pirated versions are archived with the PDF version of the manual. Or you can find the PDF version available separately. Or, how about this? Download the manual from the CL website! Yep, there it is in all its PDF glory. I have never used CL tech support. I have never failed to find the help I need right here on Renderosity. And the pirates know that, too. Why? Because a number of them visit and post here often and regularly. >>>One that will provide a cheaper upgrade on a new version when it comes out instead of trying to pirate that one.<<< You just do not understand the criminal, pirate mind at all, do you? >>>I don't see how this is hurting anyone. Some of you who state you have supported CL against piracy, how have you done that financially? You bought Poser cause you wanted to use it, not for CL's sake.<<< Actually, I bought TWO copies. One for me and one for my son. And by BUYING them instead of pirating them I DID support CL against piracy. Again, a simple reality. But your attitude is the same attitude that I have detected from a few of the CL folks here WE, the honest, paying customers simply are not doing enough. Were just complainers. We fork over several hundred dollars and actually think that gives us a right to actually say anything about anything the company might do. Silly us. >>>Sure its great to turn someone in that talks about it on the forums but that doesn't cost you anything. It costs CL lost revenue every time one of their programs gets ripped off. Why not try and recover that. Its fine to stand on your soapbox with your all-might morals and shake your fist but how is any of this coming out of your pocket?<<< My morals are based on the premise that you do not appease criminals. I am sorry that reality differs with your morals and CLs. You want to recover losses from piracy? Bust them. Prosecute them. Humiliate them. Destroy them. >>>You really want to support CL's against piracy, donate some more money to them to help pay for better anti-piracy technology.<<< There is not a piece of anti-piracy technology out there that I know of that has not been defeated. Microsofts XP technology was supposed to be unbreakable. Cracked versions were all over the net before the official copies were even sold. >>>The gripe from legitimate customers and also pirates since the beginning of computers is that software is too expensive. So a company lowers it so everyone, the good and bad, can afford it and gets skewered in the forums.<<< Because that philosophy is and has been proven to be false. My god, these bandits crack programs that cost less than $15! It isnt a matter of being able to afford it or not! >>>Why not, it doesn't really affect your life, it just feels good to get upset and spout off about it.<<< Okay, since you seem to want to make assumptions, let me inform you of another reality. Every time a company capitulates to the criminals ALL of us lose. I lose, you lose, my clients lose. Oh, by the way, MY clients hire people like me to fight crackers, hackers and pirates. THAT is how it affects my life. And how good does it make you feel to spout off about those of us who have been fighting these criminals for years!? Does it make you feel big? Good, Im happy for ya. >>>How is this costing you anything? The program is going to drop in price anyway. This is not going to make piracy any bigger than it is. Why would it?<<< No, it will not make piracy any bigger. And it sure as heck isnt going to make it any smaller. The bottom line is something no one seems to want to even think about principle. The principle of capitulating, of making a deal with criminals who are, at this very moment, laughing behind your back. Check the underground. >>>Why not try and recover some lost revenue by these people?<<< Wont happen. >>>In America we try to reform criminals all the time. Why is this any different?<<< When you can show me you have ANY understanding of the cracker or pirate mind, we will revisit this subject. Right now, I cannot, for moral reasons, debate an unarmed opponent. >>>You want to stop piracy, get off your butt and join a law enforcement agency and go fight crime instead of talking about it.<<< Listen, Mister (My apologies if you are not a male), a number of us who have been speaking on this DO fight piracy and DO fight crime. Many do it full-time. I am now only part-time. Sorry, health reasons have forced me to cut back my activities. I apologize if this somehow disqualifies me from doing MY part. Now, get off your ass and follow your own advice. Since we're wrong, show us how it should be done. >>>Im sure this is just going to irritate those that already are but try and look at it from a business stand point and not an emotional one. Think of CL and how they would like to make some money so they can continue to make future programs.<<< I AM looking at it from a business standpoint and have done so from the very beginning. And from the business standpoint it was an incredibly stupid move from both a principle and a PR end. You really want to lower piracy? Then quit pussy-footing around! Go after the criminals. Bust them. Prosecute them. Humiliate them. Destroy them. One by one. It means going after webhosts, website operators, ptp operators, ISPs, etc. And it means publicizing your fight and using the media to its full potential. Will that rid the world of this infestation? No. Hell, if theyre in China, India or Israel you can forget it. But as more and more stories of pirates getting busted, being prosecuted, losing their jobs, losing their businesses and losing what property they have for restitution payments start rolling around you will get more who back off than you would if you kiss their ass. Cant afford to hire the necessary bounty hunters or investigative people? Form a coalition with other small software companies and pool your resources and hire a firm together. It is done every day. Hell, youve got SHAREWARE companies forming anti-piracy coalitions! If they can do it, surely CL can ally itself with other similarly sized companies. The question is Do you really want to fight? Or simply pretend? Okay, folks, you win. I promise that this is the last post I will make in this thread. All I seem to be doing is repeating the same thing over and over again. The only thing that changes is the person twisting this side of the argument. CL has made its decision. It is done. I wash my hands of it. Anyway, Im still trying to settle the zip or fasten dilemma. Take care and be well. casamerica

wow - just think what could have been created if all the energy that's been spent on this thread in neurotic posturing had been spent posing instead!

"wow - just think what could have been created if all the energy that's been spent on this thread in neurotic posturing had been spent posing instead!" Actually, i think the energy was more usefully spent discussing issues than posing virtual people... don't you?

Not to beat a dead (hopefully dead) horse here, but people seem to be missing the point here. Poser 4 has been out on the market for what? 2 years? Longer maybe? (I honestly can't recall) I can't believe that all of you are using a promotion as an excuse to bitch and gripe about this. Time goes on, prices drop. Companies hold special promotions to generate more sales. They didn't HAVE to use the amnesty thing to reel people in, they could have just simply dropped the price to $129... would all of you be bitching about it so much? Who knows... I'm sure some of you would have, though not as much. The issue here is that it appears most of you feel snuffed by this, but believe me, the mention of amnesty is likely intended as just a promotional gimmick. Everyone needs a gimmick to sell a product, don't they? How many of you sell products either at DAZ, here in the Marketplace, or at 3DCommune? You use gimmicks to sell products, don't you? THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT CL IS DOING!!! Admittedly, it seems their plan backfired just a bit, however, if you can manage to rope in a few people who were using illegal copies, and get them to pay some cash, as well as offer the discounted price and hopefully sell a lot more copies, then what's the problem? Decreased prices lke this usually mean that the next version is on it's way or already released. Matter of fact, ProPack really is the next viable upgrade to Poser 4.... those of us who are using it's advanced features know full well how much of an upgrade it is, and how easy it makes things. So, when you think about it, Poser 4 is ALREADY the obselete version. I see no problem whatsoever with them offering an older product for less than half it's original price... it's just how things work. Hell, look at Hardware prices. Ron 'DraX' DeFreitas