I haven't printed (silver) B&W for a long time. I guess that explains it right there. Back in the "good old days" there were half a dozen manufacturers. Paper came in six contrast grades (polycontrast never quite worked as well). There were literally dozens of surfaces, ranging from glossy to really funky cloth or suede. Different colors of the paper stock. Thicknesses ranging from 1/2 weight to triple weight. Different manufacturers used different amounts of silver for greater brightness range, and varied the proportions of chloride or bromide for warm or cold tones. These were not cheap, but not far away from $1/sheet (8X10 in). Now, Agfa has one chemistry, with two weights and two surfaces. Ilford has two chemistries, warm and neutral, but only one weight and surface. Luminos one warm paper, with three surfaces. They have two different base colors, but with a baryta layer does it make a difference? There is a little more selection in the RC "papers." Like I mentioned at the chat last night, my 35 year old fibre prints look great, while my 10 year old RC prints are fading. Must have done something wrong. The exciting stuff now seems to be ink jet materials, which are actually quite nifty. I guess this is just a rant. I understand very well why the stinky chemicals and expensive inventories evolved away. And I like the ease and creative possibilities with the digital processing. I just hope the folks in this forum get to a museum once and a while to see what used to be possible. You don't get the same effect from a printing press or CRT. [I guess soon the next generation of "old guys" will be lamenting the passing of the CRT in favor of the LCD? Damn, that old Sony had nice blacks!]

Its the same thing in e v e r y matter nowdays. Spoiling everything, directing us to safe mainstreams. Profit. Easy Profit. And, Profit. Sad but true. .n

"....Ilford has two chemistries, warm and neutral, but only one weight and surface" I'm sorry, but I Still use Ilford Fiberbase papers today, There may only be 2 chemistries of warm and neutral, but there is a WIDE selection of surfaces and weights to choose from.....Alright..5 surfaces.... lets see... Glossy,Satin,Matte,Pearl,Semi-matte. Double weight, and Single, and even more for RC papers. Oh yeah, multigrade (ilford) has a great tonal range, It is like all of your contrast grades in one...matter of fact I believe Ilford multigrades have SEVEN "contrast grades" as opposed to the six different papers....And another nice thing is that you can go "between" those contrast levels for even more control... in essence giving you like 14 different contrast grades. And one final thing, Ilford fiber based papers accept toners quite well. (Selenium for extra contrast and permanence). I think Kodak still makes all of the "old school" individual contrast grade papers, in a couple of different weights. From my experience though, they do not accept toners as well. And If your exposures are off, they can make it a hell of a time trying to get an acceptable print. Want to find some of these papers?....drop me a line.

Alright, I got ahead of my self....Ilford fiber base papers have 2 different chemistries, and choice of 3 surfaces....you are right, Fiber base now only comes in double weight. (which is fine by me, considering I will wash my prints for up to 12 hours or more, and sometimes multiple times). They do have 2 different double weights though, but ther is not that much difference between the two. Ilford RC papers have a choice of 3 chemistries, and 5 surfaces that i mentioned earlier. Fiber base is better as far as permanence is concerned.

Phew. Lost me! (".)

Thanks, nplus, for checking. I thought I had read things correctly. I've noticed that a lot of the new fibre papers have a baryta layer. I imagine this helps the dynamic range some. But isn't this the same layer they put in the RC papers with warnings about not washing too long? Like you, I always liked to wash pretty long. However I tried following the data sheets with the RC papers, and only washed a short amount of time. I think the short washing may have contributed to some of the fading and purplish tinges on my ten-year old RC prints.

No baryta in Ilford....or if they do, they are designed for "prolonged washing" I have accedently left kodak RC papers in the wash all day with no problems......

Don't worry, Jordy, we're all lost. I've included a picture so you know what we're talking about. nplus- Great! Checked the data sheet, (the web is a nice invention), and Ilford says their fibre paper not ruined by long washing. Agfa has baryta layer, but still says prolonged washing will not alter image tone too much. Still, best not to wash RC for too long.