This isnt to start a flame, but... Yesterday, Tonymouse put an image in the Poser galleries called "Hot shower" that was a non-sexual image of two men embracing in the shower. It disappeared. Tony thought this might have been a technical glitch and reposted, only to find an e-mail from someone here saying it had been removed "because of content". Okay. We have scores of naked Mike-and-Vicky images and no one bats an eye, but two guys in a shower is cause for alarm? Folks, whether some people at Rsity wish to acknowledge it or not, there is an emerging gay presence here, and its about time some people around here got with the program. Off my soapbox and back to doing the laundry...

It was gonna come down to that sooner or later, tits and ass are ok, but 2 men in a shower God forbid.... Sorry that happened to that pic, I would certainly contact the proper person and say my piece

Damn... are you serious? I mean, it certainly doesn't float my boat to see two guys embracing in a shower, but all the same, I'm not so sure they did it out of discrimination. (proof? There's a gallery image of two military guys embracing in a forest, if memory serves.) Hmm - waitaminute. "...in a shower" Yeah, I think I know why they did it now: If the two figures were completely naked and embracing in an intimate place (a shower would count as such), it could be construed as sexual/erotic content. Seriously, be it hetero- or homosexual, such a scene would probably be better suited for renderotica. I do know that there are gallery postings of solo figures in a shower in alluring poses, but those could more easily be construed as non-sexual, at least more easily than two figures in teh same shower embracing. It would be a tough sell in either case, no matter what sex the participating figures were. In either case, I'd hate to be the gallery moderator - I see a rather big sh!t-storm brewing out of this one. /P

Oh, come on there are plenty of images of sexual content in the gallery with 2 women and those are left alone.... sounds bad to be sure.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

forgot to finish the first paragraph... As much as it doesn't do anything for me, it would be interesting to see how well it was done, and IM very strong O there should be no notice made of what sex the figures happen to be. (BTW... whose shower prop did they use? If it came from Little Dragon or I, I'd really be interested in seeing how it did turn out.) /P

I am outraged by this. We have Mike and Vicki embracing, Vicki and Vicki embracing, but we can't have Mike and Mike embracing? Give me a break. I want to see this image.

Well since it is my piece I should weigh in on the subject. I am not trying to start any trouble. I just wanted to understand why my piece was pulled. I was not trying to offend anyone or go outside the "guidelines" I didn't see anything sexual. Just affection. I don't know about the rest of you out there but if you have ever tried to have sex in the shower usually one of you ends up with a concussion. I don't know if it will get me kicked off the site, I did repost it cuz I though it was a tech glich. I don't mind that there are guidline but I created that piece with the best of intentions as for the army dudes in woods I think you are referring to my piece "don't ask." I truly don't want this to become a big deal I had already sent email to the admin about it. I like it here, and I want to stay! but I guess I would like some guidence about content. I am a gay man and there for by deffinition all my work is gay reguardless of sexual or non-sexual content. I would like to continue to share and grow with you all. I would like to learn from you and you all can (perhaps)learn from me.

Hmm... given the sheer volume of gallery images, I rarely go in there. If R-osity has naked hetero couples embracing, then WTF is so wrong with a gay couple doing the same? I seriously haven't looked that deep into the galleries. Like I said... I'd hate to be the moderator that pulled the plug on this one. /P

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=137696&Start=61&Sectionid=1&WhatsNew=Yes

Here it is, in all its terrible glory. And, Tony, frankly, it shouldnt be a big deal. And its a pity that it is. Somehow, in my naivite, I thought we were a little beyond this kind of nonsense.

There have been a gazillion Vicki and Mike images in almost the same pose that have been completely passed over. I am not gay, but I have relatives and friends who are, and I find this medieval attitude offensive.

This should have never been an issue at all. Nope. I have seen many much more erotic images here. It would seem that it was merely the fact that it was two mean that it was removed. I really hope that isn't the case. >:o|

sigh MEN not MEAN!

Wheres Good Doctor Legume when we need him most? =)

Yeah, that was the image... "Don't ask." It hit me after I sen the message. BTW: Nice work on that one (though the USAF BDU uniform -the guy on the right- wasn't all that accurate, but that's most likely the fault of whoever built the conforming uniform, so if I see it, I can go bug the modeller about that.) If you'd like I can send a more detailed description of the uniform for you... I wore one for four years.) 'k. Tangent aside, It should be a foregon assumption that you're just as welcome as everyone else here - (prolly moreso than me, because by comparison I suck at making gallery images :) /P

I just saw the pic and it is beautifully done,companionship, caring and enjoying a hot shower is all I see, nothing distasteful or even sexual about it, keep on posting them

(mile-wide grin) The image isn't bad at all, and technically, all I could suggest is perhaps a touch more definition WRT the steam, and perhaps just a bit stronger lighting, but that's just personal taste talking (bathroom lights are always harsh IMO, but that's prolly because it's the first light I always see in the morning.)

It's the very first time I've seen anything that I helped build used in a render - and it happened to be a damned good render to boot! /P

So where is the curtain prop? (he asks, tapping toe impatiently) I gotta "backstage" schedule to meet here, folks!!! =)

I can't believe that it would be removed for "content". I would have some serious issues about staying at Renderosity if that was really the case. I thought this community was all about diversity and growth. I am extremely disappointed at whoever it was that decided to delete the image. It is no more nude or offensive as any other thousands & thousands of heterosexual nude images. I hope this does not happen again. Sincerely, visualkinetics

Attached Link: http://205.122.23.229/littledragon/Curtain.zip

Heh - I sent LD the URL's, it's loaded, and I'm waiting for him to post it on free stuff. For the impatient, I linked it here.

Hi, Not bad, though we can only guess which one of these you transgressed: 1. Depictions of physical arousal or sexual acts. 2. Genital contact with ANY object, other than sitting or clothing. 3. Rape or torture of any living or dead creature. I guess some people just have dirty minds :) Now if I were to tell you that the words "rape" and cucumber were involved in an image here, would you all scour the galleries to find it? :) As for sex in the shower, I figure you just need a bigger shower, I can recommend the walk in ones at the "hotel arts" in Port Olympic in Barcelona, good view of the city too :) Thoughts: Are people objects? :) Is using a weapon physicaly arousing? :) Are wierd, unsexy "sexual acts" covered? (think Blue Velvet, man hides in closet :) Why are the undead not protected? :) Was what the US army did to Noriega, "torture" or not? :) (I guess that one depends on how you feel about Elvis ;) Don't I have a home to go to? (evidently not :) later jb

Visual, as long as people continue to be aware of stuff around here like this, it wont. Dont bail on us. Pen -- thanks! Gotta go! Renders to make! (he says, with an evil look in his eye.....)

Thank you all for your support and I think that this will work out ok in the long run but I have to admit it would be nice to hear from the guy who pulled it. and to you penguinisto yours was the prop I needed to inspire. It all came out of you alls prop. I had sat down to do a very different piece ( somthing sci fi) and I saw your prop. that was it like a bolt.

I guess they think the guy up front looks too aroused and suspect the their must be contact between 1st guys bum and second guys genitalia as they are so close... The thing is I've seen other similar displays (V&M, V&V), but the same rules didn't seem to apply. Maybe the sensitivity to the emotion sent off their alarms. I'm straight and I don't see anything offensive with the work. Maybe we need a nonbiased moderator to look it over.

After seeing some of the gallery content, there is no question that the decision to pull the picture is made soley on the fact that it concerns male homosexuality. Tonymouse's violated no guideline, and in fact was more tame than some heterosexual and female homosexual pictures allowed to stay. This can easily be shown by analyzing gallery content, but judging from this thread, the point doesn't need additional proof.

Of course, Renderosity has the right to exclude artwork for any or no reason. It's just a shame that the moderators don't follow a consistent policy.

In that case, don't thank me, thank Mickey (he came onto the forums and requested a typical suburban tub... so I built one for him :) Then be sure to thank Little Dragon, because he donated the faucet knobs, towel racks, shower head, and all the textures. I only made the tub, spigot, curtain rod, and walls... It's a whole chain of events that led to that prop, my friend - a whole chain that makes it all so. /P

My Philosophy On Life In General: I do not care what you believe in, I believe in what it is I believe in. Therefore we can get along just fine, we can hang out together, talk together, create and share art together and all will be well, BUT, if you should decide to push you beliefs upon me, then that is where the trouble starts. I would like to see this picture as well, not for the meaning of the image, but for the way the lighting is done, placement and posing of characters, textures used, and overall effort of the picture. ~ My 2 pennies worth TMG

Reminds me of an incident here in my little town on Cape Cod some years ago. There was a commuity art show at the local museum, curated by a town resident who happened to be gay/HIV positive. Needless to say, much of the show's content consisted of images of men and men together, none of which aroused any controversy (big gay community here), EXCEPT one big photograph, almost life-sized, of a young man with a significantly-bigger-than-average erection. This in a museum with numerous images of nude women and men, mind you, though none with obvious hard-ons. The little-old-lady contingent went berserk; demanded the image be removed, threatened to withdraw their support of the museum--a couple of board members even resigned. People complained that the image was "violent" and "aggressive" and "harmful to children"--though of course it was none of those things; it was just a picture of a naked guy with a big ol' stiffie, a perfectly normal, natural thing. The moral is that to much of the world, gay men are scary (all that SEX that the rest of us aren't having!), penises are scary, and gay men's penises are the scariest things of all.

Hey Pen I wish that curtin had been ready but I had fun modifying a set of window curtains :)

gay men's penises are the scariest things of all. (in my best John-Travolta-in-"Broken-Arrow" imitation) Yeah. Aint it cool? =)

I don't see anything offensive in it at all. While it's true I'm hard to offend, at least where sexual imagery is concerned, this image is considerably less explicit than many of the m/f images posted here. If the reason this was initially removed is because it depicts two men in what could be considered a sexual situation...well THAT offends me. Why is it okay for people to post pics of two naked women in a sexual pose, or pics of women performing solo sex acts (both of which appear regularly in the Poser gallery), but two men together hits the panic button? That's a bigotry. Either pull the lot or leave the lot alone, explain how it's different. In plain English.

Unfortunately, I can't edit a post. When I refered to "female homosexual," what I should have said was, "female homosexual, and heterosexual male idealization of female homosexual." I think the latter far outpaces the former.

""I didn't see anything sexual. Just affection."" oh please...2 people groping, hugging, hands all over each other clearly not in a effort to scrub any dirt off each other; in the shower (whether they be same sex or not) and you can't see why it has sexual content....tell me you weren't thinking about sex when you made it...heheheheh. I think it and every other image depicting the same thing should be taken down...what sex they happen to be doesn't matter.

Well aureeanna, I hate to tell you this but unlike some out there I don't see sex every where. In my mind it was intamet time after a long hard(not that kind)Day. as for removing it all, I though that was why they had a nudity button. Clearly they need an affection buttion. while I may not agree with you thank you for sounding in.

"oh please...2 people groping, hugging, hands all over each other clearly not in a effort to scrub any dirt off each other; in the shower (whether they be same sex or not) and you can't see why it has sexual content...." Its "sexual content" is implied, not explicit: there's no evidence of "arousal." You see sex, I see joy. The "sexual content" is in your head. "I think it and every other image depicting the same thing should be taken down" Every kiss? Every embrace? Every nude? There'd be nothing left in the galleries.

The lack of respect for all of the hard work we do for you here is amazing. I'm constantly amazed how fast some of you people go for our throats. Right after we give you something nice to use. I'll talk this issue over with the other team members. But I'm pretty sure this image was removed because the poseing looks like the guy is getting rear-ended (so to speak). But of course........that makes too much sense. And it's much, much easier to call us names and get pissed at us. Because you didn't get your way. . ScottA I apologize to the members who enjoy and use this site responsibly. You are the only reason I stay here and put up with this stuff.

Tony - No sweat... nice modification, too. If you ever want to do a re-make of it with LD's curtain set, it's up in Free stuff now, or just follow the link up in mid-thread... same place, same file :) BTW, since everyone else here is too busy wrapped in heavy indignation (or in my case, too wrapped up in artistic joy), I guess I'd better say what everyone else here prolly means to say but forgot to: Welcome Aboard!

To ScottA I hope you read all of the posts Particularly the ones from me since it is my piece I did what I felt was responcible I sent a private email. TO which I have recieve no amswer. I am not bitching about this and want it to come to nothing. I just wanted to make sure tha the playing field was level. But most of all if there is a problem with my work talk to me!! I don't have a proble modifying my work with in reason but I was basing this piesc on the limits I had seen already in the galleries to Penn thanks for the welcome!!! and I hope after this I hope I still am!!

"...I'm pretty sure this image was removed because the poseing looks like the guy is getting rear-ended (so to speak)." Very elegantly put. Nothing homophobic in that! Would you assume the same thing if it was a M/F couple? "But of course........that makes too much sense." Fact is, it's damn difficult to "rear-end" somebody that's standing fully upright; and damned uncomfortable for the rear-end-ee (a matter of angles and things relaxing--or not--as I understand it). Note to tonymouse: if that's what's going on in the image, the guy in front looks WAY too happy!.

Scott, I re-read this thread and I didn't see any name-calling. I see people concerned about discrimination. If this image violates the TOS, then scores of Vicki and Mike images also violate the TOS. I enjoy this site, I believe I use it responsibly, but I also was under the assumption that this was a supportive community open to suggestion and commentary on issues that very much concern artists. After all, a lot of artists produce societal commentary just as compelling as any writer, film maker, or photographer. It is possible to respect hard work and also comment on it and question things. Am I wrong?

Mosca, you spaek as if an expert on the whole "rear-end" business. ;)~

Relax and push out, honey.

For the record!! that is not what is going on in the image. and further to moscas point Unless you are way too limber and hung like a . . it cant be done!! from that angle, or proximity they are further apart(down there) than you think. (take my word for it!!!)

I've started looking into this for you tonymouse. From what I've been told. You were sent an explanation by the person who deleted it. So I don't know why it never got to you. I'll try to get some more info about this and get back to you. In the mean time. Don't sweat it. It's easy to get the wrong idea about what is, and what isn't allowable here. ScottA

Mosca's right; there's no way you can pull off something like that in a typical tub (and trust me, you don't even have to be gay to find that ou- ...umm, I'll stop there before TMI kicks in.) Umm, heh, anyrate, back to the point: The perception of such a specific act could be made (though only by those who have never tried to get frisky with their SO in the shower... heh.) However, I gotta say it Scott: I respectfully disagree that such a conclusion could easily be arrived at, unless the viewer is acting on base assumptions, in reaction to the sight of two men touching in ways that a hetero couple usually would when alone. What those assumptions are depends on the individual, yes? Ah, but that's the bitch about a media that only feeds one sense out of five... you have to construct the rest in your mind, and the mind is unique among individuals. Then again, that is what art is for, no? To let one's imagination fill in those things that the mind cannot otherwise gather from alternate sensory inputs.

Scott, If the image is a violation of the TOS, fair enough. In that case, so are some of mine. The difference is that mine are always m/f images - I create same-sex images, too, but those I post at r'otica. The complaint is about the double standard. If any suggestion of a sexual act is a TOS violation, I can accept that with no problems. I don't like seeing one standard applied to m/f images and f/f images, and a totally different standard applied to m/m. If that's what happened here.

TO scottA All i recieved is a genaric email(see below) saying that I had broken the guidlines. and no way to apeal that I could see. I was confused I had based my choice on other gallerie postings. all of the feed back had been good. so as you can imagin it was bewildering, I will try to "tame" it down but I have to admit I don't want to be responcible for the "dirty minds " of others. I still don't see how I crossed eother of those lines?? Tony, The image you uploaded to the Art Gallery at Renderosity called "There is nothing like a hot shower!!! (nudity)" has been removed for violating the upload guidelines. The guidelines state: "No depictions of physical arousal or sexual acts." The image broke this guideline and has been removed from the Art Gallery. Please refrain from uploading images that break the Art Gallery Guidelines. Thanks, Clint Hawkins Renderosity Administration Content Development and Management www.Renderosity.com

So called "Homophobes" are discriminated against too. Any more, it's like god forbid that a person even alludes to fitting to the slightese part of any description of that word.

You all have very valid points. Although I wish you just come to me and ask me to look into this without screamming FOUL! at the top of your lungs ;-). We haven't had to deal with type of render much. It's kind of a new issue for some of us. And I can see that we might have removed it due to false interpretation. MALE-MALE is kind of a tough to call because....well....we males kinda hang out if you know what I mean ;-) And our TOS states "No Genital contact" We need to somehow enforce a "No Porn" kinda thing while letting people be free enough to post MALE-MALE images without it giving that impression. We are not against this type of thing here. We just need to figure out where our boundaries should be defined. Please give us a little time to see if we can develope reasonable boundaries concerning this kind of thing. ScottA

"So called "Homophobes" are discriminated against too." Yep. Why, back in the good old days you could beat the crap out of a queer and nobody gave it a second thought. Now, all of a sudden, it's like they're HUMAN BEINGS or something. What's the world coming to?

Tony, the rejection of your pic was a too bad act, but on the other hand, I think you could take it as the highest compliment... Let me explain this: those guys have happened just to stay close together in the shower. If your work on their expressions wasn't so good, there would be no suspicions about the nasty thing they was about to do, in the mind of the rejector. So, it just confirms your work was good! So, keep up the good work... ;o)

Norbert, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

"Please give us a little time to see if we can develope reasonable boundaries concerning this kind of thing." You already have them. Whatever standard is applied to M/M images, should be applied to ALL images. that's what people are complaining about. Hey, bet you guys wish C&D was still around right about now, huh?

Maybe, Mosca, maybe not... when R'osity says "no genital contact, do they mean genital-genital, genital-body orfice, genital-(insert partner's esoteric body parts here)...? Perver-heh, I meant-Inquiring minds want to know. (On a serious note, it would also make for a sharper line, and less contention... everyone would know up-front what to expect.) And does it mean aroused genitals, or what? (let's face it, the guy in front of Tony's render was as limp as a bowl of over-cooked Top Ramen...) It's way easier to depict aroused men than aroused women visually, no? It'll be a royal bitch to make specifics, and I'm not so sure you'd want them posted on a page where minors could get at it in the first place, but it would certainly help the more allure-minded artists know where the sandbox walls are set. /P

Actually No Mosca. This IS a Poser related subject. And nobody is getting out of control (or will for that matter as long as I'm alive and moderating ;-)). I don't mind people getting a little bit OT. It's actually kind of nice. More like a community type thing. But sometimes I do feel more like a kicking post. Than a problem solver. :-( ScottA

The lack of respect for all of the hard work we do for you here is amazing. You know, Scott, Im willing to give people the benefit of the doubt... to a limit. To say, "oh, the image was deleted was because it might be interpreted that the guy was getting rear-ended" really pushes it over the mark. As a few others have stated in this thread, you guys look the other way when you have "genital contact" in your straight images, but let a couple of guys show some affection, and its "oh, look! hes getting plowed!". But of course........that makes too much sense. Yeah, and all those gallery images of Mike and Vicky are just a couple of bowling buddies having a beer. I suggest you think about your own post before coming down on other people with those kind of accusations. But hey... that might make too much sense, right?

"(let's face it, the guy in front of Tony's render was as limp as a bowl of over-cooked Top Ramen...)" Looks to me like he's the bottom Ramen... "But sometimes I do feel more like a kicking post. Than a problem solver. :-(" Sorry, Scott. I don't think anybody was pointing a finger at you. The admins ARE mighty quick on that delete button, though--and if the appearance is that the rules aren't being applied fairly, you can't blame people for squawking.

I think that if they are right and there is a sex act going on behind the scenes, the guy up front is faking his pleasure since a true responce seems to be laking. I think we need to stop trying to read the character's thoughts and stick to the real issue. Are nude, romantic poses allowed or not? Simple, basic and non-gender specific.

the guy up front is faking Guys. Never. Fake. =)

:) Hi gang - Sorry it took me so long to get to the post. I dont come into the Poser Gallery very much. Let me set the record on a few things. 1) I'm not a homophobe. I have plenty of gay friends..Male and Female. 2) I received a complaint from a member about the image. I may have made bad call here. Really - I'm human as well and can make mistakes in judgement. This does bring up a very valid point. There are plenty of M/F images very similar to this one in the galleries. Due to that fact I am leaving this one for now. I have asked for input from the rest of the administration team on this and have had one admin that felt it was on the edge but still wasnt 100% convinced it was a TOS violation. I appologize for pulling the image. I am going to leave it the image. I would like to extend my appologies to tonymouse for removing the image. I hope you accept my appology. Best Reagrds gang and happy posing! Clint Renderosity Administration PS - tonymouse that wasnt a canned message. I typed it all by myself. (grin)

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

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All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

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Here's my favorite part: "Genital contact with ANY object, other than sitting or clothing." Is a person an object? Is it ok if there's genital contact with a sitting person, or a clothed person? Or a sitting or clothed object? Or if the person to whom the genitals belong is sitting? This is yet another example of why web-sites need actual writers to produce their copy/text.

To ScottA Like I said before I never cried foul I just wanted to know what was going on and while I appreacieat this diologe I didn't start it. I was told about it and joined in because it was my piece and feel obligated to do so has any body at your end even seen the email I sent asking about all of this in the first place??

Thanks, Clint. Just for myself -- also a gay artist -- I appreciate the letter to Tony. Having said that, however, bear in mind that when anyone says it was on the edge while allowing heterosexual images that are far more graphic, I tend to get a little... curious as to what future standards you plan for all images in your galleries. Im sure we will all be watching this development with great interest. Thanks again.

Bravo, Clint. Nice to see someone on the admin staff own up once in awhile.

I told you Tony.... Don't sweat it. Really. It's not a problem. Don't make me come over there and give you hug buddy. ;-) ScottA

Thank you clint truly that is all i wanted if the admins decide that the line is here. . . or here that is fine as long as it is fair and eqitable to all. I was not making any acusations. actually mostly I was confused cuz I though it was a tech glich. did you evEr get the email in question from me.

No, we cant have that, because that would be genital contact... =)

Doh!! I knew you gonna say that! :-)

Mosca - Thanks man. VirtualSite - Well I dont want to get into the homophobe issue here. Everyone has their feelings on the subject. One admin felt this way. That doesnt mean we all. They are intitled to their feelings just as we all are. I dont think you will see any changes. I personaly have no problems with someones sexual orientation. :) Thanks for your comments. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

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All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

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Man - Slow this thread down..hehe...cross posting like crazy. tonymouse - Yes, I got your E-Mail to Admin. I read it and you made me think. Thanks for the kind E-Mail and not sending me a I'm so mad I'm gonna rip your head off type E-Mail. You are very professional in your tact and I appreciate that. Have a great day everyone. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

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All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

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This does bring up a very valid point. There are plenty of M/F images very similar to this one in the galleries. Due to that fact I am leaving this one for now. I have asked for input from the rest of the administration team on this and have had one admin that felt it was on the edge but still wasnt 100% convinced it was a TOS violation. If there are many M/F pics like that here, why is this one causing such a stir, and why are you leaving this one "for now" If his goes the M/F ones go also

"They are intitled to their feelings just as we all are." Yep, and we ought to be entitled to raise hell if those feelings are expressed in a way that's clearly inappropriate, and makes a particular group of members feel excluded or discriminated against.

Well, I'm gonna chime in on this one...no big surprise, as I'm probably the most-censored artist at R'osity! I saw this image yesterday. It was of two men in a shower, and one man was embracing the other man from behind. You could plainly see the genitalia of the man in front, and it wasn't erect. I shower with my wife all the time, and even though I embrace her from behind, I don't recall ever having stuffed the salami up her exit wound. I looked at the image, and saw two men embracing. I didn't see anything sexual about the image at all. I applaud you, Clint, for thinking this through and allowing the image to be reposted.

"I shower with my wife all the time, and even though I embrace her from behind, I don't recall ever having stuffed the salami up her exit wound." Well, if you do, remember not to use the Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap as a lubricant!

This has been great, I lookforward to seeing how this affect the standards here. for Clint I never whine or bitch it gets you no where. I just wanted to talked it out and it looks like we are. Looking forward to a long and fruitfull (you can take that one anyway you want) assoc with you all.

First point, I'm not gay!!!,but if others can post a M/F image in the same pose and get away with it, I feel you have the same artistic rights of display with your gay content even though myself and other "Breeders" would not hang a six foot poster of it in our lounge rooms, no matter how artistic. Many uknown artists have become famous by exhibiting controversial subjects that attract "bad press publicity" ,among them Norman Lindsay who incurred a 50 year ongoing wrath of our Australian church groups with his "Crucifixion scene" painting composed of naked women from his art commune. To some his work is "FINE ART" ,to others it is grossly offensive poison. Most contributors at Renderosity are into their own fields such as sci-fi,glamour,martial-arts,modelling,nostalgia and a dozen other subjects that are not of interest to everyone. Tonymouse, you are as equally entitled to your lifestyle and artistry theme as we are to ours. Tommy.

Legume - Thanks for the comments bud. The image is back in the gallery. I made a mistake. tonymouse made me realize this with his VERY tactful E-mail he sent to me. The reason I changed my mind is that you are right .. there are M/F images in the gallery as well and a M/M image should be removed because its M/M. Please do understand that I made a mistake and have retracted my decision about the image being removed. Sorry I had a "Knee Jerk" reaction to it. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

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All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

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Well spoken, Clint. Sorry for proclaiming you a homophobe.

Yes thank you Clint!!!! Looking forward to future discusions

Umm... "M/M image should be" That should have been M/M images shouldnt be removed.. But i think you all caugh my drift. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

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All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

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Gosh, I feel a Hallmark moment coming on.... OKAY, EVERYONE, GROUP HUG! Thats it, yeah, thats it. Little closer now. Oh thats sweet. Thats so nice. Yeah, now a little closer, little closer... oh yeah, thats soooo nice... Oh yeah, oh yeah, ohhhhhhhhhhhhh yes! Yes! Yes!.... Whew. Okay. Go away now. =)

Here's a situation where those of us who complained earlier should take a moment to thank ScottA and ClintH for serious consideration and thoughtfulness in addressing the concerns.

That said, I would also like to see the guidelines re-worked, which is something ScottA mentioned. The thing that had upset me once on having a picture removed is that I had indeed read the guidelines, and thought I was following them in good faith, and then still got it removed. I'm guessing that's probably the most upsetting aspect for anyone who has had a picture removed. If the guidelines are re-worked, though, one of two things should happen: (1) the moderators should follow them consistently, or (2) the guidelines should explicitly state what discretion the moderators have, if the moderators are to have discretion.

The goal of creating a guideline that would filter out the porn is a good one.

The end result in this particular case is a good one, though, and I'm happy to see the moderators were listening.

By Jiminy,by Crikey!, wasn't I right with my comments on "bad press" and controversial content in my last reply. Dianne and I just visited "Tonymouses" gallery out of curiosity, (you understand) we both agreed his work is good despite the sexual orientation of the characters. The controversy here has inspired 375 viewings already, must be a record for that time frame. Tommy.

Well this may not be C&D but it's still funny shit! :) Artists! To damn liberal for thier own admins, whatever next?!? :) "out of curiosity, (you understand)" But of course, God forbid anyone should think you were actually interested in this sort of thing! LOL :) "when in a hole, stop digging..." :) later jb

To Scott and Clint,

1. You can't win for losing.
2. Remember, this IS a community of ARTISTS
3. You do realize that you will now have to come up with rules which are excruciatingly detailed, (kind of like the tax code) covering every possible situation which may arise in the galleries (that may not be such a bad idea for you) or you will be pilloried and labled as, and let me get my list out, "homophobic, sexist, bigoted, racist and a Nazi"....did I leave any out?

Freedom of speech and expression is a double-edged sword and different people are offended by different things. I don't know who complained about the image, but if the person that complained had posted something that offended some of the other people on this forum (take your pick of whatever you find offensive) would they have complained that they were offended or would they just let it go? If we are calling for fairness here, it should extend to EVERYONE. I understand the need for clarity in the rules, and perhaps that is what is really at issue here, but let's not pounce on the moderators and start slandering and libeling them.

I don't usually respond to things like this, but sometimes I get tired of people being bullied if their way of thinking isn't in lock-step with the current mores.

Joan

I get tired of people being bullied if their way of thinking isn't in lock-step with the current mores Now thats a riveting statement. As I sit here trying to figure out your post (you do seem to be dancing on both sides of something), are you saying that it would have been just peachy-keen okay if Tonys image was withdrawn without comment? That, in the name of something we cant quite define here, Tony should have just allowed it to be censored? Sorry, but I think you ought to clarify your position here, because if youre saying what I think youre saying, then perhaps you too should re-examine whos imposing a "more" here, current or otherwise.

Well I posted a pic with two guys a while back and was politely asked to remove it 'cause it showed an erect penis. I can accept that as a rule - no male erections, and no explicit sexual contact. I havent posted a non explicit homosexual pic yet. And I will post more pictures with those two later - bound to stir up some hooraw anyways - seeing as how its a mixed race couple as well. :) Just this time the groinal areas will be hidden. Lyrra

Actually I'm kinda surprised that the image is still there. But after reading this whole thread, reviewing the terms of service on this and looking at the picture in question for a few minutes, it gives the impression that sex is occurring. The sheer mechanics are argueable, but if a picture showed a womans head at crotch level with a mans groin, his hands in her hair, but her head was obscuring the act, it would still look like sex wouldn't it? Also IIRC their was a similar discussion not to long ago in C&D about a similar 'embrace' between an man and a woman. Many many people thought it implied sex. Last thing I remember was the image was pulled. Correct me if I'm wrong and the image was allowed to stay. What this looks like, is that in order to remove the stigma of being labeled homophobic the rules are changed. Sorry but that sucks. I respect the job you guys do as admins and I know you can't please everyone, but if you wrote your rules to prevent 'porn images' maybe you should stick to your guns.

Nope...The decision was not made due to the homophobe comment. The man in the front is not erect. If he was the image would be gone no questions asked..period. I made a mistake in removing the image. There is no genital contact that you can see. We arent waffeling on this. I made a bad decision lastnight when I pulled the image. I was busy with other site stuff...Got a complaint...Took a look...Went ah..I gotta remove that..etc.. I should have taken my time analized it better before making a snap call. I will be doing that in the future. Sorry for all the problems over this. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

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All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

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I must be going nuts. All this fuzz about COMPUTER GENERATED images? Stupid little colored pixels neatly ordered? God forbid that a real disaster happens... Maxx

Ok, I want to clarify something - not start another war. Does this mean no erections?? That's not on the TOS and frankly while I've done one nude male (not erect) I had planned on doing more and frankly I'm a woman who (there really is no delicate way to say this - sorry) finds a hard stiff one alot more alluring then an overcooked noodle. So are the new TOS "softies" only? Does that also mean no erect nipples?

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

The Tos states... "Depictions of physical arousal or sexual acts." An erection on a male is "Physical Arousal".. so the answer to your questions LadySilverMage is...You are correct no erections. Renderositca will be more than happy to accept those images. Have a nice evening. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

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All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

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Ahhh, thank you. But honestly wouldn't that cover erect nipples as well - although that could be achill from lack of clothing ;-) I've only been to renderotica once - they were closed at the time - never went back.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

LadySilverMage - your funny...Yea that could be the cold on the nipples...I dont think thats as big a deal as an aroused male. Funny thing is a mans parts will react the exact oposite when cold.. (goofy grin). Talk to you soon. :) Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

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All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

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Tell me about it - showers good - just not when the hot water runs out.... I'd also like to emphatically state that as a 6' tall woman with a 6'3" husband, in regards to the shower - where there is a will there is always a way ;-)

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

ahh nice, a happy ending :) i saw this last night and wondered how it would go... was confused too so didn't bother chiming in. :) i reckon this just got spotlighted cos we're not used to seeing it. we're desensitised with nude vickies but not nude mikes (no matter the scene.) so the nude males tend to catch more eyes and hence tend to get scrutinised against the tos more. ("little-old-lady contingent" lol@Mosca) sooo.... more nude mikes! yeah! :D joking okay? i may like the male body lech but i don't think the gentials specifically are really that pretty. like scott said, you guys hang out. not very neat ;)

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

not gonna even go into it.... but nipples technically are not genitalia (play no nessesary part in reproduction) ok, continue argument....

You "analized" the picture? You better get a spell checker, Clint, that typo's a DOOZY.

did you check the nudity check box? Sometimes they erace images that are not properly checked. I have seen other images in the gallery that are still there, Did your guys have wood? Because renderosity hates to knock on wood you know if you get what I mean.

true as that may be shadowcat, I'm sure that if one posted an image of blatant sexual stimulation of the nipples I'll bet it would get yanked - technically genitalia or not :-)

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Only one way to find out...

ah yes, but thenit would be blatantly sexual and fall into catagory 1, not catagory 2 (the genetalia part)

Folks, you all know this is supposed to be a PG/R site. While I agree that the gallery mods here are not always consistant in their interpretations of what images constitute a TOS violation; I have to give them a bit of slack if only because of the sheer volume of images that they have to go through every day. I think that for the most part (just a theory), the inconsistancy may be due to the fact that unless something is truly blatent and calls attention to itself, certain images that may indeed violate the TOS, or are borderline, are left alone unless somebody complains about it. Unfortunately, people usually complain about things that are different than they, and we all know that different is scary.

Why not just save yourselves the hassle and post any image with content more risque than basic cheese/beefcake, somewhere that you know it will be welcome?

I want to add my thanks to Clint and Scott for addressing this one. It's a lot easier to stick to your guns than it is to admit you were wrong. Thanks, guys.

Thanks eirian. Is it over? Can uncover my eyes now? ;-)

Well, you could move us into C&D... :-) (joking!) This is one of those issues that will always arouse strong feelings, Scott. I'm sorry if you felt attacked. Momcat and LadySilverMage have a point here, you know? The logical, if more contraversial, solution is to apply the TOS more stringently, not less. I would simply ask that the same standard be applied regardless of the gender or (apparent) sexuality of the characters portrayed. But...shutting up, now. I've probably said too much already :-)

Kudos Clint! I applaud your sense of fair play and your ability to admit a call that you felt may not have been warrented! Not many people thank a moderator for being so fair or admire him for being able to make such tough calls and tough admitions, but I for one really appriciate it. This particular issue of one image being considered 'unacceptable' but tons of others that are the same or worse being OK, is very personal to me. It was the cause of my leaving the Yerf.com galleries and urging others to boycott their unfair practices. My artwork (All /clearly/ furry, all fully clothed, All single characters in no way sexual positions.... one dancing, one pouncing upon a mouse, and one posing rather snobbishly) were all removed and my entire gallery was deleted without a warning. I received a rather terse message about it not being their type of art and take it to some smutt site. I at least had a friend who took the bombshell of a flame I was writing to the powers that be and made them aware of what was going on (The bombshell was about 3 full pages of nothing but links of people's artwork that showed full frontal nudity, sexually suggestive poses, and non furry art that had been there for over 6 months and no one had touched it or even objected). The Powers that be though stated that while they would return my gallery, they were still going to uphold a bad ruling by a powermad administrater that thought that tiny toon furries were the only thing acceptable. They would allow me to stay on, but they supported his decision to be a pr*ck and supported a call they knew and admitted was a bad one. I was the only one they attacked, everyone else's art stayed up and nothing changed. Thus I have personally boycotted Yerf.com for 3 years. When I contacted them three months ago about returning now that they apparently had cleaned house, they asked me why I left. I sent them copies of the entire fiasco and they never contacted me back. Apparently they weren't so cleaned up as they let on.... that or they're still nursing the implied black eye I gave that jerk of a moderator. I am so thankful that this place has such nice people, that it can be talked out and bad or questionable calls can be discussed, and the moderators are so mature as to be able to see that their call might have been in error or even a bit too difficult to make without public opinion. HUGS!! I very much agree with the way this thread seems to be going. A ruling that does not apply to everyone, should apply to /NO ONE/. Either it is universally enforced or it is universally ignored. No exceptions, no excuses. Anything else is unfair. Border line cases are always difficult, but each borderline case should result in the consideration of the current regulations and if a rewording should be in order to make the line more clear. I realize that it's difficult to make the that decision when the line is hazy and I applaud someone being able to face it so well, but that the rule could be misconstrued to apply to one but not another of near the same picture implies to me that the TOS needs to be reworded to include such a situation and the site's stand on it. Just my thoughts ;) The 200lb Gorilla

Clint.. *Since i caught this at the end.. not going to comment on anything but to applaud you for admiting you were wrong and apologizing to the artist. * I only had to look at this because a few members pointed it out to me. Frowning at inbox Quite a few actually, but I am glad it was solved and am definately glad to see it has been resolved :) oh and...:) Renderositca will be more than happy to accept those images. Make that Renderotica? grin Storm *now everyone who emailed me.. i saw it okay? L

Thanks for all the comments gang. But you know .. when your wrong your wrong. :) What can I say. Sorry about the typo with Renderotica, wasnt intentional. Have a good one. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

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All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

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