I've always been a strong believer in a self-correcting power in the Universe. Not unlike the way the human body heals itself of malady or distress. A strong impulse for healing seems to have a way of creating that very thing. And it isn't always in ways that seem obvious or planned. In fact, I think it rarely is. This does not seem to be the case with the final, and some would say, inevitable demise of the PFO. This was a slow, angry, acrimonious death that, at times, was sad and difficult to witness. Even as I write this, a Kamikaze atmosphere still lingers over what's left of the place. And the bullet hole in their foot still goes unrecognized. It's unfortunate that both sites could not co-exist in a mutually respectful and professional way, but clearly they could not. However, this conflict appears to be over. And, for what it's worth, that's a good thing. Jack, his partners and staff have created a great resource here for anyone to enjoy. And I know when I visit this site, I'd much rather spend my time and energy doing just that.

Rather splendly said. Mark!

Back from where? I was just at the site, and it's still there.

Well, good riddance I say, if they are really gone (and not just sulking at some cyber corner, trying to solicit sympathy for the laughable fate that is essentially of their own silly making). Perhaps the pathetic, wounded tone of some of the posts at the "Goodbye Board" (hey, they are still locking out threads) and the irrational "spoilt brat" replies of the admins reveal best their misguided pretensions in (still) thinking that they can "create" and "own" a community. No sympathies here; it was a "crash and burn" just waiting to happen. In any case, life will go on for the rest of the Poser community. The rabid nastiness, snarling pettiness and general small mindedness, perhaps best expressed in the "epiphanic" farewell e-mail to PFO members, will certainly not be missed. The demise of PFO, if true, is perhaps a fitting testimony to where bigotry and stupidity will lead. In turn, it is also a vindication of artistic freedom and liberty, that the dynamic force of creativity that embraces ALL aspects of our existential reality, cannot be easily censored, excluded and suppressed by those few individual with their own hidden agendas. Hopefully, the blessing in disguise in this entire amusing debacle is that they will finally "get it" (I doubt it) and in consequence, get a real life. In other words: woo hoo, we "pervs" rule! LOL! (Disclaimer: the above is tongue-firmly-in cheek and entirely my PERSONAL opinion, so don't go and whine to the Renderosity/Renderotica admins about it!)

The community forum's still at http://209.103.212.48/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Community&number=12&DaysPrune=5&LastLogin= And the Poser Forum's at http://209.103.212.48/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Poser+Forum&number=1&DaysPrune=5&LastLogin= Nobody's pulled the plug on anything as of Sunday 10:21 pm. I'm there right now.

Legume .. If you go there as a direct link it works but if you go to any of the other forums or try to back out to the main forum screen they are all gone ..Just thought I would point that out ..

Well, they changed the links, but it IS still there.

So it's still there. Wow. You don't suddenly remove a site like that when it's one like that one is. Some people still have things to reply to, replies to read, etc. You do it over a couple of days time. Anyways, for those that are happy, I'm glad you're happy. But what about the users that refuse to come here? You happy they lost a great resource? To re-emphasize what has been said on THIS forum- Ignore it if you don't like it. Right now, with all this "Happy" talk that the PFO is gone, you're doing exactly what they were accused of doing- Being bad mouthers. So until people figure out it's the USERS that matter... Adios.

Well warrior, some people ARE happy to see them go, and they have a right to feel how they wish. You're right, it IS the users that matter, and THEY are the users. There are members here who have been kicked in the ass by the PFO admins. Though I've never publicized the details (and I won't, because it's ugly, detrimental, and flat-out nobody's biz), I'm one of those folks who has left ass skin on the PFO boot. And, as many folks will tell you, I was one of the PFO's most stringent defenders. I didn't just end up here at Renderosity because Jack looks good in hot pants... It's because I was one of the "casualties" of this "war". You just look around, and you'll find LOTS of folks here wearing the "Purple Heart". If I were to kick YOU in the ass, wouldn't YOU be happy to see me get what you feel I deserve? I'm not saying I'm happy that the PFO is closed (and I have yet to be convinced they are). In fact, I could care less. It's flat-out none of MY biz. My business is to make RENDEROSITY the best site it can be, and to make sure OUR members are taken care of. And whether the PFO is closed forever or not, I will CONTINUE to make THIS site the best damn graphics site on the Net.

Have to agree with you WarriorDL ... It was a great resourse and community are going down. I have to say I went to both sites because of invauable information from both places. I might not have agree with stuff but I don't agree with stuff here either .. I just go about and brush past most of it. Currently I have been downloading a lot of the valuable stuff that isn't over here. There is so much great work that was done and is now going to be gone or at least missing for a while. Just because you don't like a certain few people doesn't mean you have to hate the place. If you don't like the President do you move away to France? No .. And yes I know it is a little different but I was just making a point. I for one am not going to quit going to any site just because someone is rude. hell Legume prides himself on being rude. Just something to think about and take it easy ... I mean like it or not a lot of people are losing what they consder their home ... Be well

Gee .. right under Legume .. I meant rude in the best possible way Laughs

Legume, and it was PFO people that were "happy" when something crappy was said about Renderosity. And they got flamed for it. It's a full friggin' circle, with BOTH sides doing it. NEITHER is innocent. All this "happiness" is showing is that Renderosity isn't the mature forum it makes itslf out to be. All it's saying is it's identical in attitude of the PFO that Renderosity says they have. Full circle, and the users lose. I applaud you for trying to make Renderosity better. I make our Sci-Fi forums the best I can as well. But to be better, you have to act better, and not bring yourself down to a level you make the opponent out to be.

Ghost, :o) Oh, and Legume, if you kicked me, I kick back. Hard :o) Real hard.

These are the MEMBERS saying these things, Warrior, not STAFF. This is THEIR site, and they, like you, are speaking their minds. One of the things I do here to make this site better is to NOT censor what the members have to say. How can I "act better" than THAT? THEY, the MEMBERS, dislike the other site, and they are as free to say so as you are to disagree. You seem to be confusing the people who LOVE Renderosity with the people who RUN Renderosity. No Renderosity administrators are here slamming them. But it's not my duty to DEFEND the PFO, either. I don't OWE them that, and I'm not going to tell the people who post here that they aren't entitled to their opinions. I'm not bringing this site down to ANY level. I'm making sure the MEMBERS have a place where they can post their opinions without having to worry about them being deleted because of "unpopular" content. If you are suggesting I practice censorship and start deleting members' posts because they state an opinion you don't like, I can assure you that I won't be the only one to tell you that you're barking up a VERY wrong tree.

Alle, now here's a differnce, ok? You are responding directly to me with that, not just flat out dissing the PFO and saying your happy they're gone all on your own. You're saying it in a responce to me. The ones I refer to are the ones just out and out saying it. That is the type of talk that the PFO was accused of doing. So it's still full circle, and some Poser users lost out without having been a part of it. Just as people are going to stick here, others were sticking there. No, they DON'T have to "get over themselves and decide to come here." They have just as much of a voice and opinion as you and anyone on this site.

Legume, did I say to censor or delete posts? Didn't think so. Did I point at Admins saying it? Didn't think so. Basically what I said was the people posting here need to THINK about what they are saying before saying it, otherwise they are doing the same thing they accuse the other side of doing, and dropping to the level they say the other side is at. Otherwise, by saying these things about the PFO, then they are just as right about here as you are about there. So neither site is/was better than the other. Full circle.

Warrior, I can respect that you kick back when kicked. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do. That's what alot of these members are doing.

Does this site need to be censored? No...but it definitely needs an adult check on it...and I think I will report it to the proper authorities. You guys are the most immature bunch I have seen. Jack. You are wrong...and you know it. If you are such the big man you make yourself out to be....then take the www.poserforum.com down and quit making it a redirect. No body cares what you do with it...give it to them...sell it to them...but you using it in any form is wrong...and you and all the members of this forum know it. You didn't create the original forum...and you are using it to your advantage. If this forum is "all that and the bag of chips" you claim it to be...then stand on your own feet with the "renderosity.com" link and get over it. If you think you are getting a lot of new users out of this...you are wrong....and your claim of having 10,000 members or whatever is wrong too..and you know that. You are still using the names of the people who originally came to this site. And I can prove that...I never signed up for renderosity.com...but here I am posting. How ya figure that? You are capitalizing on something you didn't create...had no input in...and did no work on. I am not a huge fan of the PFO...but I am even less of a fan of Renderosity.com. This site is built on disceet and if you need the proof...just type in www.poserforum.com and watch the redirect to this site. That's all the proof you need. You are all so proud...and I am sure there are some fine artists here....but if you are so proud of it...then stand on your own feet...and not the PFOs. Tammie

OK, Warrior, perhaps I misunderstood your intent. You said "...to be better, you have to act better, and not bring yourself down to a level you make the opponent out to be". I assumed this was "pointing at me" in response to my saying my job was to make Renderosity the best. Like I said, it's not my job to DEFEND the PFO, or to tell the members that they are "bringing down" our site with their opinions. Perhaps you should consider this; next week nobody's going to care. We'll all return to business as usual here at Renderosity. The PFO will either be there or it won't. People who want Poser stuff will either come here or go elsewhere. Step back from your monitor and take a deep breath. It all seems calamitous and important right now, but it's really not NEARLY as serious as you seem to think. Folks posting their PFO backlash will eventually drain all the poison from their wounds and go back to Posering. The scab will fall off and it'll be forgotten. If we do "sink to their level", we'll rise back up as soon as the wind blows away the stink. Today is not the last day on Earth. Didn't you ever see "Annie"? The sun WILL come out tomorrow....and Renderosity will still be here, offering its' members the same quality and resources that it did yesterday, today, and for as long as people want it.

Hey, that IMHO, is the defining difference here: acceptance and tolerance for ALL opinions (assenting and dissenting)and artistic forms; the other "alternative" would be: amazingly feral screams of protest and a blindingly quick thread lockout (gee, um, like fun). Perhaps a fitting epitaph: "Assholism killed them all" And to reiterate YET again: the above is tongue-firmly-in cheek and entirely my PERSONAL opinion, so don't go and whine to the Renderosity/Renderotica admins about it!

Well, tmoss, if you'd like, I will delete your membership for you. All you have to do is ask. ANY of the people in our database who would like their memberships deleted, just post here to this message board, and I, or one of my fellow admins, will see to it that you get your wish. The fact that you are posting here only proves you haven't exercised that option. We do INDEED have over 10,000 members. If we were to delete every member who signed up before the "schism", we'd be taking away their freedom to choose which site they wish to frequent. The fact that only a very few people requested it makes your point moot. Members here have ALWAYS had that option, and are free to exercise it if they so choose. We will NOT cancel ANYONE'S membership without their written consent.

Legume... that is totally backwards. If you were the great site you claim to be...then you would have had everyone resign up...that way...you would know that your membership was true and not stolen. That is the biggest cop out I have ever heard...and just proves the points I made earlier. When this site was taken over...the database should have been deleted..and no one should be registered here without their written consent. Your database may be over 10,000...but it is not because you have had 10,000 people come to this site since it was taken over and have chosen to register here. It is because you stole the database of the PFO and did not delete it. Tammie

Tammie.. nothing was stolen.. Willow abandoned this site No one held a knife or gun to her head and said get out. And I am certain that even by deleting those who don't want their memberships here there would still be well over 10,000 people. Gods.. the site is back up let it go now. Storm Who is really tired right now.

Storm...I have no problems with you. I just like looking at good art. I very rarely post on any forum but the Sci Fi Forums...which seems to have a fairly mature set of people on it. My post was not to Legume...but he chose to get into it...so I have posted replies. This will be my last post here...and like many others such as Pan..I will quit posting anywhere but the Sci Fi Forums...but everyone here needs to take a good look around..and see what is truly being done. Next time...it may be this forum that you guys love so much that goes down.

Tammie, there is no way in hell we are going to inconvenience 5000 MEMBERS just to please your sense of what's right and wrong. These people DO have the right to cancel their memberships if they CHOOSE TO at ANY TIME. They didn't. That's no cop out, that's the way things are. You didn't answer my question, Tammie, so I'll ask it again. WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO DELETE YOUR MEMBERSHIP, TAMMIE? Anyone else?

ducking.. Umm Legume.. Just make sure you don't delete mine S Storm holding up her lifetime membership card..

actually I agree with Tammie...I use this forum over PFO, but I still agree with her when Jack & Co. (yes legume, you only count as one of the "co" people) started running this they took an existing forum with a large user base, a well known URL, and (possibly most importantly) a link from within poser itself. That link is how I first found poserforum.com (when Willow was in charge here) and probably how a large percentage of the users got here. Now, I'm not going to say that Jack should have turned his back on these. You guys have done a good job here, in my opinion better than Willow & Co. were doing (but only in MY opinion)...but yes, it was willow that built up the forum, that earnt that link from within poser. I don't think this is jacks fault, when edgenet took PFO away from Willow they also took the URL away, to be honerable they should have handed the URL to her with her new PFO. But the fact remains, this site is renderosity.com, willow has PFO...and willow should have the poserforum.com domain, and the link from the program. Then renderosity should get it's own link from within poser from it's own merits (and I firmly believe it would get a link) It's not really my business, but I think you should be honorable and hand willow the poserforum.com domain, even if she is less than mature at times. SewerRat

Naw, I wouldn't do that to you, Stormy. My ol'man said to me, afore he left this crazy world, he said, "Son, always keep the well-endowed women on your GOOD SIDE..." ;)

Considering that Fur's contributions to the PFO is what made that (and this) website the navigational marvel that it is. I think that many of the BIGGEST contributors and veterans of the Poser Community are at here at Renderosity. These achievements are theirs, not Willow's! Oddly enough, most of these guys are pretty humble. They spend more time contributing, than flapping their gums about how they're they created this community. The reality is--Once upon a time, Willow was in the right place at the right time, and the PFO took off. Now it's time to widen our horizons and offer the community some alternatives. And, I'll bet the domain name argument is about a lot more than a damn web address.

Only one thing about all the above disgusts me...the mention of Legume NUDE! I'm wondering if we can get the State of Michigan to add this to their "ban list". Anyone want to join the team to make this happen? Foxhollow (trying to delete this thought from my Mind RAM)

You are totally correct Freakachu. Willow was a front person... Fur and Co is the brains behind the curtain. ARADTech

chuckles Legume..you are just chopping at the bit to delete me...but yet....according to the high law you have set...you can't without my "written permission". Ya know...all the feuding between the two forums could be solved so simply. 1. Take down the redirect...(the issue over who owns the name is between Willow and Jack...by leaving it up...Jack is causing the trouble.) Let Renderosity stand on its on feet. 2. Simply send an email to all on the database telling them that the next time they come to this forum...that they will have to re-register due to a desire of updating your database and ending any hostilites about this forum. In a week you would know what your true membership was...and if you have 10,000...then that is wonderful. The reason I posted the first time to this thread was that everyone was hollering...if Jack was doing wrong...then prove it...well...there is the proof folks. It may not get him the death penalty...but it degrades his credibilty tremendously. I will go back to just browsing through the artwork and quit posting here...just wanted to give a word of advice. Yes..I know that forums can become very personal..and that you make lots of friends on them...and they begin to feel like home at times....but you are artists...always be cautious and alert when it comes to your artwork...where you post it...find out about the people behind the forum you are posting too...read the Terms of Service (remember..Yahoo/Geocities trying to pull a fast one not too long ago)....protect yourselves...cause most likely those people that run these and other forums...will never do it for you. Tammie

Freakacu & ARADTech, thanks for the recognition! :-) Tammy, please get your facts straight first before you say anything you might regret once you know them all. Back then, I personally paid for the domain name as a gift to the community. Later that year, Willow turned her back on me, because I wanted to add more features here to make this a better place for the members. She couldn't handle the fact that I controlled the software and domain name, despite the fact that I always did whatever she asked me to. What did I get for my complete loyalty? A stab in the back on her way out. So it was my choice and mine alone on what happened to the domain name, not EdgeNet's, and not Jack's (I had never even spoken to Jack at that point.) I certainly wasn't going to hand over the name after how she tried to smear my name.

Roy, You do a great job with the software..and this forum..I have no quibbles about that. I'm glad you own the name. Like I said....no one cares about the domain name...who owns it...who gets it..at least not members who are here to do art. However, you are using it as a redirect to Renderosity.com...you are deceiving those who have heard about the PFO and are trying to get there...you are deceiving those who use the link in Poser. You believe in this site?? Take the redirect down...let it stand on it's own. I have no doubt this site will do great without the redirect. And it will increase the credibility of this site threefold. Tammie

Well now, everyone knows that .COM addresses are for commercial sites AND the PFO claims they are non-commercial. So it would seem to me that people would be more deceived if they used that domain name than their .ORG & .NET addresses.

shakes head I have never seen so many people in denial of what they are doing. I have no qualms with this site...what it does...other than...you are deceiving the public. .com, .net, .org, .whogivesashit. The poserforum is associated with the other group...was long before you came along...long before edgenet or Jack came alone. You are hurting your credibility by using the redirect. You know it is associated with the other group...and you are using it lure people here instead of building this site on your own merit. I don't post my artwork over there either...and I rarely post to either forum unless I see something just fabulous...or outrageous...which this discussion is becoming. And with the last comment you are admitting that this is a "for profit" site...and that your main goal here is to make money...and not the users or their artwork. Is that what you wanted to portray??

Tammie, I'm not "chopping at the bit" to delete you. You COMPLAINED that Renderosity didn't delete your membership. Since you are a member, I would be happy to help you rectify this at your request. If you wish to post after that, you may feel free to rejoin. However, if you do rejoin, you really won't have a valid complaint, will you? You're not willing to VOLUNTARILY do the very thing you've demanded that we FORCE our members to do. Feel free to spout all you wish. We will NOT inconvenience 10,000 people for the benefit of YOUR personal agenda. Your continued posting indicates to me that you wish to exercise your posting priviedges as a member of Renderosity, and that you don't wish to have your membership deleted. I can't blame you for that. We here at Renderosity try to make this the best site we can, and to me your refusal of my offer of membership deletion tells me that you are a woman with good taste who obviously recognizes a quality site when you see one.

Legume, You are a most arrogant man. I have no personal agenda..I could care less. Delete me if you wish...I will not reregister. And that was not my point to begin with. I came here to see the responses of the PFO possibly closing. I got the answers I needed. I never claimed that the PFO was innocent...but you have definitely proven your guilt in these roles. Members of this site kept asking for proof...so I have pointed out the things I have noticed..that your site came with a built in database...and the pointless redirect from the poserforum. I wish you luck. And I hope that you will find a way to promote this site legitimately. Laters.

Actually, Roy, not everyone knows what .com, .org and .net stand for. The vast majority of people joining the internet anywhere could care less what they stand for. To them, it's just a part of a URL.

Gosh, Tammie, you hurt my feelings. I won't delete your membership "if I wish". It's not MY choice to delete ANYONE'S membership. Your membership will remain in our database until you say "PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME FROM YOUR DATABASE".

Excuse me, long before I came along?? Hello, who do you think it was that was hand updating the Fun Stuff html pages every Sunday night? I can remember a time before there was even a Grey or DD, thank you very much!

This whole thing is better than WWF Smackdown on Thursday nights. I get to see all the s**t every day!

That motley drama!-oh, be sure It shall not be forgot! With its Phantom chased forever more, By a crowd that sieze it not, Through a circle that ever returneth in To the self-same spot, And much of Madness and more of Sin And Horror the soul of the plot. -Edgar Allan Poser

LOL good one wyrwulf!!

Isn't it kind of ridiculous to trifle over a generic name anyway? I mean, "Poser Forum" has the same chances of being registered as a trademark as "Lean Beef" or "Organic Chemistry".

Legume wrote:

"These are the MEMBERS saying these things, Warrior, not STAFF. This is THEIR site, and they, like you, are speaking their minds.

One of the things I do here to make this site better is to NOT censor what the members have to say. How can I "act better" than THAT? THEY, the MEMBERS, dislike the other site, and they are as free to say so as you are to disagree. You seem to be confusing the people who LOVE Renderosity with the people who RUN Renderosity.

No Renderosity administrators are here slamming them. But it's not my duty to DEFEND the PFO, either. I don't OWE them that, and I'm not going to tell the people who post here that they aren't entitled to their opinions.

I'm not bringing this site down to ANY level. I'm making sure the MEMBERS have a place where they can post their opinions without having to worry about them being deleted because of "unpopular" content.

If you are suggesting I practice censorship and start deleting members' posts because they state an opinion you don't like, I can assure you that I won't be the only one to tell you that you're barking up a VERY wrong "

Wow, a refreshing attitude. I miss those days. Too bad Legume isn't around these parts anymore. kind of interesting re-reading the history of this site.

Quote - ...kind of interesting re-reading the history of this site.

Indeed.  Especially for those of us who weren't around back then.
Thanks for the bump, 'Bro. ;-]

I dare you, while there is still time, to have a magnificent obsession. --William Danforth

I was kind of surprised to find this. Of course the old C&D forum is gone and the Virtual Tavern with it. I don't think they've survived to read anymore, although I could be mistaken. But it's nice that SOME of the old threads remain.

AAAAAAAAAAAIIIEEEE Zombie Thread!

Run for the hills! it wants Braaaaaaiiiinnnssssssss.............

Wow, for a minute there I thought I was in the Twightlight Zone. I couldn't figure out WHAT was going on, LOL. Course, I didn't notice the date of the first post. Sigh.... to early in the morning I guess LOL

In a world filled with causes for worry and anxiety...
we need the peace of God standing guard over our hearts and minds.
 
Jerry McCant

Oh ugh, Flashbacks.  ;)

...... Kendra

Whoah, like, noo waay...

Just consider yourselves lucky I can't bring back the Tavern and C&D! .......snicker.....

I miss the C&D forum. There was nothing better than watching a good train wreck after a hard day at work. ;)

Rich

"I'm not bringing this site down to ANY level. I'm making sure the MEMBERS have a place where they can post their opinions without having to worry about them being deleted because of "unpopular" content.

If you are suggesting I practice censorship and start deleting members' posts because they state an opinion you don't like, I can assure you that I won't be the only one to tell you that you're barking up a VERY wrong ""

Yeah, freedom was a very cool thing. Too bad it had to end. Alas, censorship reigns supreme in the Poserverse now.

Quote - I miss the C&D forum. There was nothing better than watching a good train wreck after a hard day at work. ;)

Rich

Got that right, Rich.
Good to see you again, man. :)

Thanks Mike, It's good to be back! Glad to see yer still around. :)

Rich

Funny....I was just writing about this the other night...

 

Actually...I was surprised to see Legume's posts "At ALL"

 

I thought he went through and hand deleted them all before he left.

 

FWIW..Roy is absolutely correct...He owned the domain name, and Programmed / Maintained the site. He had every right to do with it as he pleased including the re-direct. As far as the link in "Poser"...it's not the domain holders responsibility to "Re-Direct" the link...It would have been up to Meta Creations (Which  owned Poser at that time IIRC...maybe Curious Labs by then)... to release a patch that updated the link to the appropriate site.

 

Sites come and go...and if a site ceases to exist any longer...or acquires a new address....the "Developer of the Software" needs to either remove or update the link,(whichever is appropriate) via a patch, or simply send out instructions to all registered users on how to hack the link file (which is probably easier than deploying a patch...just to modify a link)

 

Anyway... it ""IS" things like this (Maintaining good relations with the Software Developers and other Sponsor's) that make it difficult to have an all out "Uncensored" site... If developer "X" supports site "Y" by putting a link in thier software, manuals, website, or other publication, and site "Y" becomes a "Free For All" or becomes a site which display's or allows that which Developer "X" doesn't approve of, or decides has become that which isn't consistent with what they want thier name associated with...How long do you think it will be before Developer "X" Stops Supporting Site "Y" ?

 

(Takes Breath...Damn..that was a long sentence.)

 

Sure..we all want to be able to speak our mind uncensored, and many..if not most, folks have the ability to "Self Sensor" themselves, even if there were no restricting rules....But as I mentioned in another thread recently...Perhaps not verbatim..."The membership (including Vendors) are not the only source of revenue for a site this size" Sure...Without a member-base...there is no site...but folks need to realize that there are other forces at work going on behind the scenes that enable a site of this size to remain in existence.

 

The old PFO(.org) is a perfect example of one that didn't want to be a commercial site, and as such, got to the point where it was either find ways for the site to be "Self Supporting" or close altogether.... Pay up....or Close up...

 

What good is it to the membership...if a site has no other option but to shut down, due to lack of finances?

 

Those finances must come from "Other Sources" than just members  buying stuff in the Marketplace, when a site gets this big.

 

 Sorry to go on so long (Again...lol) I'm simply trying to provide some food for thought...for the next time the "Censorship" card gets played.

 

There are others, outside the membership, that participate in generating revenue for the site, that also need to be taken into consideration.

It's a delicate tight-rope act,that site owners must perform every day, in order to try and maintain a balance between pleasing the member-base, and satisfying the demands of other,"outside" sources.

 

Both are "Needed" to support the site, and not everyone is going to be pleased or satisfied.

 

 

Nice find Spiritbro...Again...it's strange that I was writing about this very thing not 2 days ago.

 

You got me wanting to dig up more old stuff like this.

 

Those were the days eh?

 

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Yep, those were the days. I've found a lot of old threads that are quite interesting. I didn't realize some of this stuff could still be found. I understand what you were saying about outside sources, but if it gets to the point you have to lock every heated thread and ban anyone that rocks the boat, whats the point of having an art site? The bottom line and increased revenue may be enough reason for site owners, but it's not much consolation for us members. At least the members that value freedom, the ones that LIKE the disneyfication on the other hand are happy little lemmings :) Anyway, things are as they are, nothings going to change that. Just found it cool to relive a time when things were more free. Voting for Mods? Members voices being sacred? Wow . Of course I found some horrific things as well. I didn't know there was a public trial and subsequent execution of Dillinger.

nice post tom and an intersting read spirit.

i see people talking about censorship as though it only happens here. that art doesn't get censored is a crock imo. no one can censor what an artist creates but almost every artist that shows work can find themselves on the receiving end of censorship. go to any art gallery on the high street. usually they'll show two maybe three styles of work. take a piece of art in that isn't  what they want and they won't entertain you. in real life, censorship is much more in your face than asking someone to do non nude thumbs of their work. in real life the artwork is often refused a showing because it doesn't fit in with a galleries theme, you're not established, it's the wrong colour, it's the wrong medium, we only show females artwork, we only show gay peoples artwork, we only show what we want to show etc etc. argue the point about thumbnails by all means but dont talk about it as the beand end all of censorship as it relates to art. no one is saying you can't paint this or that, they're saying they'll show what they want to show, which is their perogative. i can't believe all the spilled tears by so called artists crying foul. if you want to show your artwork without it being censored create a site of your own or hand the piece on your front door.  true censorship is not the refusal to show a piece of art by someone but to stop them from creating the piece of art in the first place. putting a book on a banned list at school is on a localised censorship. burning all the copies is real censorship. jmo

billy

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I wasn't refering to the thumbnail contorversy. I do think it's stupid, especially when it gets to the point that a Davinci work gets pulled. But we're talking here about having a voice. And being allowed to express that voice without getting banned and having the thread locked. Mainly though it's just re-living the old days. Times past when things were a little more exciting around here. Site wars, controversy,fun fun fun lol. I miss those days, and I miss many of the big names from those days that have long gone elsewhere.

 

Oh...Horrific Thing's..C'mon Spiritbro...send me some links man...lol 

I can only speak for the handful of forums I read here...but the only threads I've seen locked were ones in which someone who seemed to commit his every waking hour to "Rocking The Boat". (who shoulda been bitch-slapped and showed the door long ago IMHO).. Other than that...I've seen recent "heated" threads regarding the recent thumbnail policy go on for over a dozen pages....Again...I only read about a half dozen forums here so there may very well be other threads locked that I'm unaware of. So I can not completely agree, nor disagree with you regard the "Locking of every heated thread" and I've not been privy to any info regarding banning's.

 

    We go way back...you and I...and my post certainly wasn't meant to educate you on what is involved in managing a site of this magnitude...I do apologize if it came across that way...but I assure you that was not my intent....So you and I know there is a significant difference between "Heated, Opinionated Threads", and downright "Trolling and Harassment".

 

 My intent was to illustrate that a site of this size, comes with sizeable cost's. This Site,by it's very nature (An Art Site), is Graphic Intensive, with probably more daily "Image" uploads and downloads than probably any other site I frequent, and probably more than some of them combined. Then there's the store uploads and downloads, not to mention the Testers downloading EVERY Product for testing ranging from at least once, to sometimes several times per product.( And subsequent Re-uploads from the Vendors with each new Release Candidate )...Of course there are the images uploaded and downloaded to the Store Front, various forum threads,...free stuff and tutorials sections, .etc.

 

Add all that up, and that's an ass-load of bandwidth and transfer...that doesn't even include the more cache-able images like Forum headers and the Vendor's banners in rotation.

 

And that's just the bandwidth draw....Then there are the Server,Storage, and Back-Up costs...Programming, Research, Development, Software, Staff Employment, Gas and Travel cost's [Air Fare] to various Conventions like SIGGRAPH,.... Advertising and Promotion,etc...Along with Brick and Mortar cost's such as Leasing, Insurance, Computers (Networked), More Software, Office and Supply costs. and probably several other expenses I've left out like Attorney Retainers and Fees, Accountant's fees, Bookkeeping, Taxes, General Business Licensing cost's, right down the line from the guy who cut's the grass in the Summer...to the guy who plows the snow in the parking lot in the Winter.

 

The above is just the long version of "It's cost's a lot to Have,and Maintain a site of This Size" (Notice how I keep mentioning "Size"?)

 

Cost's that many might not even think about....and no matter how much the Store is bringing in, it's not enough to cover the expenses needed to Keep the site "As A FREE Resource". Those cost's must be off-set by "Other Sources" (Described in my earlier post).

 

So the "Increased Revenue"... IS  the Consolation for the members...it assures that the site perpetuates and is here as a "FREE" resource for Existing Members...as well as the newbie who signs up tomorrow.

 

Gone are the days when there was the "No Holds Barred" atmosphere.( Which is unfortunate... because we did have some fun times back then as well as witnessed horrific train wreck's...lol)

 

OKAY... here is where it all comes together....

 

It's Because of the site's success, that we have the "conditions" we have today.

 

Yeah...I remember Voting for Mods...lol...but I also remember that no one out-side the membership showed any interest in supporting the site.(Other than maybe Curious Labs, and a then  very small content provider known as DAZ )

 

No Software Developers would even return an e-mail or phone call....It wasn't until the numbers started to grow (From hard work and dedication from both Membership and Staff), that Developers would even show an interest at all. Then...We at least had a chance to convince some of them to take a chance on us....At first...it might be providing prizes for a contest...I mean...how much would that cost them?...Not much....But then they saw a significant increase in interest and sales of thier product(s).

 

And as their numbers grew...so did the site's membership.

 

Now we had a foot-hold, a bit of leverage...and learned how to convince other Developers of the potential value in the exposure and promotion of thier product(s) on a large site,in front of thousands of  "Like Minded " member's. Many of which would become their future customer base.

 

And as their numbers grew...so did the site's membership.

 

So...one could say we are victims of our own success...It's because of the relationships established with these other sources, that both the Developers and the Site Membership numbers have grown. The momentum of that growth has resulted in a sort of  "Symbiotic Co-Dependency"  between the Membership, The Site Owners, and the Developers. Without 1, the others suffer. Thus the motivation for each to "accommodate" the others.

 

Part of that "Accommodating" is what results in atmosphere we have today.As I mentioned...Some have the ability to "Self Censor", whether rules governing them are in place or not...and Still manage to have a heated, yet respectful debate. Others, either simply don't have that ability, or just choose not to use it.

 

And as the site's membership grew...so did the number of rules.

 

So...The "Disneyification" could be seen, at least in part, our own fault.

 

8 )

 

BTW..Who's Dillinger?

 

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Whoa..I missed a couple of post while writing that last Novel.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Quote - This Site,by it's very nature (An Art Site), is Graphic Intensive, with probably more daily "Image" uploads and downloads than probably any other site I frequent, and probably more than some of them combined. Then there's the store uploads and downloads, not to mention the Testers downloading EVERY Product for testing ranging from at least once, to sometimes several times per product.( And subsequent Re-uploads from the Vendors with each new Release Candidate )...Of course there are the images uploaded and downloaded to the Store Front, various forum threads,...free stuff and tutorials sections, .etc. 

Add all that up, and that's an ass-load of bandwidth and transfer...that doesn't even include the more cache-able images like Forum headers and the Vendor's banners in rotation.

 

And that's just the bandwidth draw....Then there are the Server,Storage, and Back-Up costs...Programming, Research, Development, Software, Staff Employment, Gas and Travel cost's [Air Fare] to various Conventions like SIGGRAPH,.... Advertising and Promotion,etc...Along with Brick and Mortar cost's such as Leasing, Insurance, Computers (Networked), More Software, Office and Supply costs. and probably several other expenses I've left out like Attorney Retainers and Fees, Accountant's fees, Bookkeeping, Taxes, General Business Licensing cost's, right down the line from the guy who cut's the grass in the Summer...to the guy who plows the snow in the parking lot in the Winter.

Whoa..Even I didn't think about all that....:scared:...but ya fergot sompin'......the cost of jelly. :lol:

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Dillinger was a member back in the old days. Tim had a public "trial" and subsequent "execution" where he was banned.

***And as the number of rules grew...so did the site's need for jelly.

**8 )

Tom*

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Hey, ya know how much jelly we gotta go thru??....and if it catches on that its fun, we're gonna be in the deep doo-doo...:m_shhh:

:lol:

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

OH...I remember that now...I was at another site by then though.
I think that may have been one of the last  of the pubic banning's here...which ultimately ended even announcing the banning's.....lol

Yep.....back then...If you got banned..it was posted publicly.

Hey... News was News...and that front page wasn't going to fill up by itself...lol

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

I agree Rosity is a victim of it's own "success". We're all victims too! lol I guess I just miss the days when members were considered important and listened to. Now it seems if you're not a big name merchant you're not really considered part of the equation. Alas, Rosity outgrew the community spirit. It's big business now and while I can see that in some ways thats good, I kind of miss the bad old days when it was  wild and free. And while there were many flames and fights( and I didn't mind that), there was also more of a sense of community you know?  
While all thats true, I am also a realist. Things have changed(and have been for a long time) and they won't change back. So basically I'm just having a walk down memory lane, when I really did like coming here and felt like I was part of the community. Peace Brother.

Yeah...once the momentum started...there was no turning back....This place has become bigger than what most could have envisioned back then... I mean...it's got it's own gravity and magnetic field now.

 

8 )

 

"And while there were many flames and fights( and I didn't mind that), there was also more of a sense of community you know?"

 

I totally agree with that...perhaps it was because it was a smaller member-base back then...but there was a more solid sense of unity over-all.

 

It would be interesting to have a "What Ever Happened To..."  Thread...and try to find out where some of those Old name's are now.

 

Waitaminnit...let's not let our nostalgia cloud are good judgment....I mean...we might uncover the whereabouts of those we "Don't" wanna find....lol

 

Tom <~~~ Kidding...I think it would be cool to find some of those old friends.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

[Quote]...that's an ass-load of bandwidth...[/Quote]

Wait, you're not suggesting that most of what is uploaded and downloaded here is $h*t, are you?
Sorry, but I was trying to find the complaint, figured that was it.

---

OK, now I wanna know two things:

1. Why can't I type in the quote stuff and have it work?
2. How come there's no "Last" page in this thread to click on?

Back then..

Mike, I think you need to type in small 'Q's for the quotes to work,

Quote - [Quote]...that's an ass-load of bandwidth...[/Quote]

 and # 2..I think it has to have 5 pages before the system gives the option of last? {Im not sure on that last one tho...but I think thats what it is}

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Quote - Mike, I think you need to type in small 'Q's for the quotes to work,

OK, jumpy, will try. :)

Quote - and # 2..I think it has to have 5 pages before the system gives the option of last? {Im not sure on that last one tho...but I think thats what it is}

Was a lame nod to an ongoing joke. ;)

Yeah, the quote thing worked, but one may wonder why in all the world of html, case matters not, except here...
Then again, this is Renderosity - its particular version of PHPbb/NonPHPbb is just a tad different from what the whole of the rest of the world is used to, for practical reasons, of course.

Quote - Was a lame nod to an ongoing joke. ;)

Ohhhh...I remember that one LOL

Sorry...Im one sick puppy right now ...blasted stomach bug crud...crawls off to bed

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

"Sorry, but I was trying to find the complaint, figured that was it."

 

 

I'm trying to work on my selfishness...I figured I'd not only give someone else the opportunity of getting COM (Complainer Of the Month), But I'd even set the stage for them as well.

 

8 )

 

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Well, dammit, I wanna get COM for a change. Jeez, I've been bitching, complaining and yes, even whining for years, all for...what? No recognition, none at all. I'd expect my fellow 'plainers would step up and put in a good word, but...noooo...
And then you simple 'plainers pop on in with your petty 'plaints and walk away with all the accolades.
Humph...and you can quote me on that.

Quote - Jeez, I've been bitching, complaining and yes, even whining for years...

Yep.  Good 'ole Mikey even tried to winge outta bein' a Vue mod once upon a time.  Check out page 2.  Ya gotta love Kate & her Porta-Cano 2000's.....angelic grin.

Quote - Humph...and you can quote me on that.

Don't mind if I take you up on that do you, Mike? ;-]

Yanno, I kinda feel like I missed out on some type of R'osity initiation thingy by not getting to experience the VT or the C&D forums.  From all I've heard and read, a very inneresting time was had by many who frequented those now long lost bastions of conversation and discourse. It sounds like it got hotter than Hades now & then, but what a way to better discover just who you're hanging out with when surfing by these here parts.

I dare you, while there is still time, to have a magnificent obsession. --William Danforth

Yeah Arry, but the modern Poserite can't handle that kind of freedom. Their little heads would go all esplody. :) They can't even take a mild critique of their work without crying to the mods. But you're right, you missed some really exciting times back in the day.

Arry!
'bro!
Is great to see y'all here. What're the odds, yanno?

"Oh, how cool," He said with a twisted smile halfway 'tween shock and irritation....
Jeez, I was such a dork. At least the Vue people were cool. :)

Umm, arry, we need to talk, I think.

Mike...Like I said...I was trying to set the stage for a complainer to come along and challenge the content of this thread...Your slippin man...You had several opportunities to complain in this very thread.Surely a creative complainer such as yourself could have hand picked stuff to complain about smorgasbord style in this one....Done-chew make me start complaining about you now...I swear...I'll bring out the cat pictures if I hafta.and there are few things worse than watching cats trying to doge a "Jumping Jelly Pelter".

 

Anyway....Arry...You kinda had to be aware of the overall 2D/3D climate back then....Things were changing fast, and the community was bustin at the seams...It didn't take much to send even the most well behaved off on a rant.

 

"No... You said This...So I said that...but So-and-So said things, that made me think you meant That...and then..in post 11 you said"........" so I thought you were referring to what I said in post 8...but you said you were replying to what What's-His-Face said two threads ago.provides link...So what did you mean when you said......"

 

Gawd...it went on forever like that sometimes....it got so confusing at times...you didn't know what the hell was going on.

 

Then everyone had a group hug, and then started a new fight....that is...everyone except those who got banned....they just started a new "Bash Thread" at another site...

 

Hey Spiritbro....remember the "Soup Kitchen"?....lol

 

Man..we were some lost sons-a-bitches back then...lmao

 

Tom 

 

8 )

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Quote - Umm, arry, we need to talk, I think.

Uh-oh. 

waves at Tom & 'Bro

Crikey, Tom.  The things you put those poor cats through.
I'm amazed they haven't yet turned into some weird Stephen King type reanimated monsters.

Or perhaps......they have. =:-O

I dare you, while there is still time, to have a magnificent obsession. --William Danforth

Quote - Crikey, Tom.  The things you put those poor cats through.
I'm amazed they haven't yet turned into some weird Stephen King type reanimated monsters.

Or perhaps......they have. =:-O

 

Yes, sadly, Tom actually died in 1999, during the vast celebration of the pending new Millenium. Some say it was drinking that glowing orange goo we were cooking in the kitchen. Others say it was part of some bizarre ritual attempting to invoke the very 3D gods themselves at midnight. 

We may never know, and it doesn't matter now. What we do know is that his spirit entered the Internet on that fateful night, and now he lives on through his ability to post forum messages and strange, mystical cat-images. A personality as strong as his could never truly fade away, and we count ourselves lucky to still have him with us in this form.

RIP, dude, RIP.

:lol: :biggrin: :lol: :biggrin: :lol: :biggrin: :lol: :biggrin: :lol: :biggrin: :lol: :biggrin: :lol:

I was here in time to witness the death of C&D.....followed by the OT forum & the VT forum.........followed by the Den.

The top of the page says "3428 artists online".

But nahhhh........the management around here doesn't have a clue about what they are doing.  If only they had listened to reason back in them there good 'ol days.........if they had, then perhaps now they'd be just as big as.......other places.  Perhaps they'd have 25 members online at any given time(!)........on an especially good day.

'Way to go, Tim.  And thank you.  We've now got a great site -- a place where we can get just about anything 3D-related: whether it be information or products.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Xeno, how do you know that the site wouldn't be just as big if the C&D, Bar etc. survived? And since when is "Big" always better? Go take a look through the Bryce or Poser gallery and tell me things are better now than they were back in the day. Bigger isn't always better man, but I don't expect you to understand that.

Oh, I understand it, alright.  But even though "bigger isn't always better" -- in this case I'd say that it is. 

And as for this site being "just as big" if it had continued on as it was in a former era -- I'd say that no, it wouldn't be.  That type of atmosphere drives away far more people than it attracts.  Although, admittedly, it does attract some.  And there are places for those "some" to go & practice their "freedom" upon each other's heads.  "Freedom", of course -- meaning the right to bash skulls unhindered by anything so disney-fied as enforced rules of semi-civilized behavior towards one's fellow man.

Trust me -- I can handle living in Hell's Kitchen.  Even at midnight.  But why on earth would I want to?

Attempt to explain Rendo's success away in any manner that you like.  IMO, the facts of the case speak for themselves far more loudly than any ideology does.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Drives who away? Most of the thousands of members you use as proof of success don't take part in the forums. Never did, never will. And all the years since C&D closed hasn't changed that. Look, no one's calling for a return to freedom. Most of the Rosity members still around couldn't handle not having cat hearders tell them how to act, feel, post, what art they should create etc..Without such structure their little heads would go all esplody. 
I was just taking a walk down memory lane and remembering how nice it was to actually be part of a community. Your opinion is it's better now? Well, thats your belief. I believe it was better back in the day, when there was a sense of community.When members were more self reliant. When it really WAS about the art, and not how much crap you could sell. 

There are other sites which I visit regularly & enjoy -- I have nothing specific against them.  However, as we all have only 24 hours in each day, and as we have real lives that demand our attention, too.....it's simply impossible to participate full-time at them all.

I am about as independently-minded as they come.  I don't take "marching orders" from anyone.  And I consider this website to be my home base in the Poserverse.  Judging from all of the evidence that I can see, a lot of other people agree with me.

As for whether or not my fellow site-members are "a bunch of lemmings" -- or whatever other epitah that anyone cares to use to indicate their inherent worthlessness as human beings -- frankly, I don't let such matters bother me a bit.  I figure that I am responsible for the choices made by ONE individual -- myself.  And I figure that other people's business is their own.  So I don't lose any sleep over worrying about their motives for doing whatever it is that they choose to do.  So long as they sign the social contract -- and agree to treat each other with a minimum level of respect.

"Personal Freedom" is restricted by the fact that there are other people in the world.  We face this problem from our earliest days.  And this can be a very hard lesson to learn.  And in some societies (including in some online communties), this lesson is never learned.  So -- as a result -- it comes down to being all about ME.  Others be damned.  So I'll abuse them, call them names, and verbally gut them in any way that pleases ME.  After all, I am the smartest one in the room -- it's just that the rest of those idiots out there don't have the brains to realize that obvious fact.  So it's my goal in life to go about proving that fact on their pathetic heads.

There is a powerful case to be made for effective moderation.  Lots of other sites are far more tightly moderated than this one is.  At many websites this type of thread would be stillborn.  It simply wouldn't be allowed to be posted at all.  And yet here we are -- openly speaking our minds.  So long as it's done within the fairly loose bounds of the TOS, then we won't be instructed to shut up.  You (or anyone) can come in here and criticize the PTB.  It happens all of the time.

But when/if it becomes clear that someone is engaging in a thread merely to stir the pot -- as occurs from time to time -- then it's all judged on a case-by-case basis.  IMO, that's about the best way that there is to run things.

Even the so-called "free policy" (hee, hee) sites have been known to kick out members for various infractions of whatever their rules happen to be.  And Rendo has every bit as much right to enforce its policies as those other sites have to enforce theirs.

There's always USENET for total anarchists.  Just watch out in there.  The problem with a jungle-like environment is the constant need to look over your shoulder.

shrug  Most people don't want to live that way.  And I don't blame them.  "Lemmings", "sheep".....whatever that makes them out to be.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

" Attempt to explain Rendo's success away in any manner that you like.  IMO, the facts of the case speak for themselves far more loudly than any ideology does."

Only problem, Xenophonz, is that facts are just the raw material for further analysis.

Here.. why is Newgrounds, according to Alexa, ranked at #660 while Renderosity hangs around at #10,667? 

Both sites feature a specific kind of computer art - Newgrounds is a community gallery for Flash, while Renderosity is a community gallery for 3D pictures.

Both sites had a wild, anything-goes start.  Early Newgrounds Flash was downright shocking and undergound; Renderosity pictures used to have the content that's now gotten shuffled off to Renderotica.

Newgrounds took the philosophy: "Everything, by everyone."  Their sole criteria for being allowed or removed?  Peer review.  (They do say that you can't have "excessively pornographic" Flashes, but from long experience at Newgrounds, I can assure you that sentence is mostly for show.)

Renderosity took the philosophy: "Become more appealing to the mainstream."  Detailed and specific criteria for what's allowed or not in the Terms of Service.  (Helpful diagrams sometimes!)

Both sites went up in size and traffic over time - sites do that.  They grow.  If they get into a good position, a social gravity takes over; people see a site is big, choose it over others to get more eyeballs and community to work with, and soon enough, the big site is the biggest site.

But why has Newgrounds grown up from such humble, one-man beginnings to become the bleeding edge of Flash entertainment for the world, while Renderosity churns its wheels, a big fish among other 3D sites - much like how Newgrounds is a big fish among other Flash sites - but unable to break through to true prominence?

"- but unable to break through to true prominence?"

 

I'm not sure I understand you last paragraph.

 

 

"Which Site" are you implying is "unable to break through to true prominence?"

 

Renderosity?...or Newgrounds"?

 

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

shrug

I'd say that users of Flash animations represent a far larger proportion of web traffic than do heavy 3D-only users.  Insofar as I know, Rendo is the largest of all of the specifically 3D-oriented sites, outside of DAZ - the two are roughly equal, traffic-wise.  And I'd say this is due to the fact that Rendo and DAZ largely share the same audience.  And BTW - DAZ is another site that gets sharply criticized for its mod policies, too.  And yet in spite of that -- DAZ is another huge success story.

You can always find larger sites.  But you need to compare apples with apples.

Myspace beats 'em all by a huge margin.  But Myspace is a totally different type of site.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Let me add that 3D CGI (although this statement might get me into trouble with some) is itself a subject with niche appeal.  There are only just so many people around who are interested in the topic.

Collectors of ceramic bric-a-brac probably represent a far larger population.  But I don't intend to switch hobbies for that reason.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"'Way to go, Tim.  And thank you.  We've now got a great site -- a place where we can get just about anything 3D-related: whether it be information or products."

Yeah..."anything 3D-related"...
Don't you really mean Poser-related?
Cause, like it or not, this place ain't exactly cutting-edge 3D and all.
Dunno about you, but I check out the Newtek forum and CG Forums if I want to know about the world of 3D. This place is Poser, Poser, and more Poser: How Bryce relates to Poser, How Modo can be used with Poser, How (GAH!) 3dsmax can be used to enhance Poser...how the above things can be used to make and sell Posercrap, how far better apps can be lowered to the Posersphere.....
I could go on - please, ask me to do so...

The place is what it is. But, a cutting-edge 3D site, this ain't. It's a store that sells Poser stuff, with a group of forums with the idea of supporting that intent.

This site has active communities centered around a lot of different 3D & 2D applications.  Sure, Poser is the main draw -- but that makes sense when one considers the fact that this has been a Poser-oriented site from its very inception.  And that's fine with me -- and it appears to be just fine with a lot of other people, too.

However -- you can feel free to become involved in any of the high-end app forums here.  They all have active & very skilled members in them.  As well as beginners.

Another thing -- Renderosity is a meeting ground for the hobbiest and for the true 3D professional.  And for all intermediate types, too.

Some individuals point to the galleries and say "see how pedestrian".  I point to the galleries and say "Beginners are welcome here.  Please feel at home."

Not all of us can work for ILM.  Some of us merely render Poser scenes for little more than our own personal pleasure.  But those who are at the ILM level sure can help the rest of us to find our way along as we stumble around in the dark.  And many of the ILM-class 3D experts do patiently field and answer our newbie questions.  Because they are friendly & helpful that way.  Constructive.  And their reputations follow them.

As I stated earlier: insofar as I know, this is the LARGEST and the most heavily-trafficiked of all specifically 3D-oriented sites -- along with DAZ.  There must be a reason for that.  A reason that can't just be swept under the rug.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

There is a reason for that, for sure - The vast majority of people here are hobbyists, people entertained by being able to make CG art with Poser. And, there's nothing  at all wrong with that; alot of those people will become professionals, having become interested and inspired here.
All I was responding to was the implication that this site is a contender in the world of 3D CG. True, there's alot of fantastic CG art here, but to imply that you can "get just about anything 3D-related" here is just wrong: I don't see them selling V-ray, I don't see them selling FPrime, Syflex, Maxwell Render, or Project:Messiah. I see no mention of Netimmerse Gamebryo, very little on FBX...

You see alot of little skimpy click-to-apply outfits for Vicki, though, along with the obligatory prefab morph-and-pose pack.

Renderosity does have forum support for 3DS, Lightwave, C4D, XSI, Maya -- and others.

The items which you've mentioned have very limited user bases.  Cost being one factor.  You'll find them mentioned in the high-end app forums here in conjunction with other discussions.

I have Lightwave.

"Cutting edge" -- it's right here.  But you aren't likely to find any used NAS servers being offered up for sale.  They have a rather limited customer base.  Whereas Poser-related items appeal to a large number of people -- be they ever so humble hobbyists.

"If you have to ask how much that software/hardware combination costs, then you definitely can't afford it.  (Peasant.......)"

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

You'll remember, I trust, that the part of this discussion where I first started disagreeing with you began with the implication that we can "get just about anything 3D-related" here.
It's my assertion that that's not true, and I could probably come up with a thousand more examples if I had to.

Renderosity began as a Poser emporium, and that's essentially what it remains, in spite of it's weak attempts to break out beyond. It's basically the Amazon of the Poserverse.
It is astonishing, though - I would think that for all the members - for all the latent potential to become something bigger, it still does its best to appeal to the wannabees with promotions like "Monet Monday" and such, which are pretentious, at best. (Not to mention the laughable Rudy Sarzo thing).

I get the feeling that no matter what Rendo did, you'd find fault with it.

And yes -- you CAN get "just about anything 3D-related" here.  Including being pointed to the sources for whatever re-sources that you might happen to need.  This isn't the Newtek site -- Newtek has their own site.  But if someone needs to know about Newtek, then this isn't a bad place to ask for help from those who are willing.  The Newtek site itself can be a bit bewildering for the newbie.  But the LW forum here isn't.  Although it is frequented by LW pros.  If someone doesn't understand, then they can always ask.

And if someone needs to know about Maxwell, then they can ask about it in the appropriate forums.

I wouldn't go into the Poser forum to inquire about plug-ins for LW.  But there are people who frequent the Poser forum that would know the answers.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

My inclination is to look at the positive aspects of the situation.  But that's just me.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

You gotta be adaptable. Keep movin or die.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

ah ha!

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

Interesting......my cats have never displayed any special interest in cookies.

However -- on occasion -- we'll find the mangled legs of various types of insects scattered around on the kitchen floor.  The insect's bodies are always missing.  But the cookies remain untouched on the shelf.

Could be that the cats like the flavor better.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - shrug

*I'd say that users of Flash animations represent a far larger proportion of web traffic than do heavy 3D-only users.

You can always find larger sites.  But you need to compare apples with apples.*

Yeah, why is that?  Flash used to be known as that annoying plugin that puts distracting ads on your webpages.  Professional animators looked at it, and thought it was useless for serious animation work.

And when Newgrounds came out, its reputation was even worse than Flash in general - people thought everything on it was tacky, amateur, tasteless, poorly drawn junk that made you want to break your TV screen.

I can only assume that Newgrounds had deep faith in what it was and who it supported, and allowed the visitors to do what they did best - rather than, say, assume that the visitors had to be kept in check, lest they "scare off" other visitors.

Then they started attracting more and more people - including people with more experience, and more talent.

Xeophonz, If we accept that there is a natural difference of interest between Flash animations and 3D pictures, why did the ratio of that difference increase over the past five years?  In 2002, We can see that Newgrounds hovered around 75 million pageviews/day, versus 20 million pageviews/day.

Why did Newgrounds double to roughly 100 million pageviews/day, while Renderosity stagnated at the same level?  In fact, if we look at the 2006-7 years, Renderosity's pageview count has drifted downward, nearing the 10 million pageviews/day level.

If you want something more apple-y .. well.. you should take a look at cgsociety.org sometime.

Just take a look at the front page, and you'll see some pretty impressive stuff.  Then head off to Alexa and check the statistics, and you'll be impressed again.

These are the folks who wanted to be treated like adults, and the place they found that would let them.  Renderosity could have had them on their side, and still kept an atmosphere for beginners - but this site had different ideas.

I happen to love Flash... and Searched out Newgrounds and signed up.

 

I'm sure "one of" the contributions to the growth of a site of it's nature( Dedicated to Flash)...is the fact that "Flash" (The Program..and thus..the subsequent viewer plug-in) itself has come along way in it's past several releases. The ability to import various video formats, entire folders of bitmap sequences, More robust Action Script, Export and Output improvements.tighter integration with Dreamweaver, Fireworks, FreeHand..etc....the list goes on and on. Not just the old "Poorly drawn junk" it was in it's earlier days.

 

Naturally as the development of the application gets better, so does the interest in it, and thus the membership of the sites that are dedicated to it.

 

As I said..."One Of"  the contributions to it's growth...I've not been a member long enough to get a feel for the way things are run to give an informed opinion or appraisal of other reasons for it's success.

 

The one thing I love especially about flash...is there is no need for special codec's n-stuff to view...If your current Browser plug-in needs updated to view something...you are directed to the appropriate site page (Adobe now) to upgrade your plug-in for a short download of the latest viewer....No search and find mission to locate, install and configure a codec "You Hope" is the right one...etc.(And Possibly a re-boot to complete the install). By that time...many may lose interest in what they were trying to view in the first place.

 

Flash just seems "Cleaner" and more compact (For Web Viewing especially)...AND...it's "Interactive".

 

Yeah..Yeah...we've all heard of the possible "Security Vulnerabilities" via malicious script, but I seem to think one takes chances every time they go out on the net...Security Suites are only as effective as your last definitions update...One just has to use some common sense when "Choosing" where to go, and what to download from the net.

 

Anyway...I never did quite "Get" the whole "Flash Bashing" Thing....I mean...even an animated .gif can be annoying.

 

 

Thanks for the mention of that site...It'll be an interesting new place for me to check out.

 

BTW ...Whatever happened to the "Flash Forum" here at Renderosity? rbtwhiz Moderated it long ago IIRC.

 

 

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Flash makes its appearence on so many webpages that I don't believe that the matter should even be open to question.  Flash is everywhere.  3D simply is not.  Many people who wouldn't have a *clue* about 3D are well-versed in Flash.

Like I said -- you can always find larger sites.  I'll one-up your examples with bigger sites still (but not in Rendo's staked-out territory ).  For example -- your favorite site (Newgrounds) vs. youtube.  I suppose that this means that youtube's submission policies are "superior" to those of Newgrounds.  Even though youtube and Newgrounds are dealing with totally different types of subject matter.

I have no objections to cgsociety.  If CG was the way that I made my living, then I'd probably join up there  (Perhaps Rendo should become a subscription site, too. ).  Cgsociety is more "apple-ey" vis-a-vis Rendo than a site like Newgrounds -- but you still aren't dealing with precisely the same type of website.  3D is one aspect of CG -- but only one.  CG involves a lot more than just 3D work.

It's interesting that you would pick cgsociety, because you aren't likely to find the type of work that is often complained about not being allowed in the galleries here over there, either.  For that matter, threads like this one wouldn't even be allowed to happen.  They'd be moderated out of existence so fast that it'd make your head spin.

Perhaps Rendo should take note of that fact -- and become even MORE restrictive.  Doing what cgsociety does -- and individually reviewing submissions to the main galleries before allowing them to be posted.  Wouldn't that go over well..........

A website -- just like any other type of business -- has to know who their customers are.  And then they have to tailor their appeal to that specific base.  I believe that cgsociety has accomplished this -- and I believe that Renderosity has likewise accomplished this.

So have youtube and myspace.  As well as ebay and amazon.

It's just that some areas of interest have a much larger built-in customer base than do others.

In its own area of appeal -- and to its own audience -- Rendo has the game right.  Other websites have tried doing it in different ways.  And other websites haven't enjoyed the success that Renderosity has -- in its field.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"I get the feeling that no matter what Rendo did, you'd find fault with it."

No, I only find fault with what they are doing, which is masquerading as a serious art site, while essentially being little more than the clay aisle in an art supply store.

In fact, my frustration and irritation with Renderosity is that, considering the amount of talent around here, it could be...So.Much.More.
But, it's not, and it won't be, because the whole idea is to cash in on the quick-fix, digital girlie scene.
Again, that's fine. I'm a huge lover of capitalism, and that's what this is, but I have a problem when they imply, or someone states that it's anything more than a place to buy Poser stuff. Is not a community, is not serious about anything but creating an atmosphere suitable to make one want to buy more Poser stuff, and to be able to do so comfortably.
I frequent alot of the "serious" sites, and I don't see the rampant spreading of product credits and such in those places as I do here, don't see the pretentiousness, don't see that faked happy-happy, joy-joy sentimentality.
I see that sort of faked sentimentality from the Wal Mart publicity department.

Frankly, something puzzles me.  I don't understand why I would waste my time hanging around and sniping at a place that I considered to be so unimportant in the overall scheme of things.  I'd spend my time at a more important, 'serious' site.  A place that I liked.

And I like this one.  So do quite a few other people.  Most of them don't bother with threads like this one.

This place is just like a lot of other places.  What you see when you look around in here depends upon your own internal filters.  I'm sure that cgsociety has its haters, too.  It's just that the site is run in such a way that you'll never hear anything from them on that site.  It's not allowed.  Unlike here.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Ah, the ol' tried-n-true, "If you don't like it, go away" - always a favorite, and sometimes it works, even.

" And I like this one.  So do quite a few other people.  Most of them don't bother with threads like this one."

This is true. Most of them aren't aware of such things going on elsewhere on the server, and that's good for them. They're happy, that's fine. I wouldn't say they even need know the discontent which lurks beyond their awareness.

My own "internal filters" see what is to be seen; just like I see the ad posters at my local supermarket to be designed to sell me stuff, regardless of how pretty it's packaged.

"I'm sure that cgsociety has its haters, too.  It's just that the site is run in such a way that you'll never hear anything from them on that site.  It's not allowed.  Unlike here."

I'm not a hater - I'm disappointed in the direction.
Oh, now, far as "not allowed" is concerned, I could name a few forums which went bye-bye - poof - because they were deemed to be potentially harmful to sales...I mean, harmful to the esoteric "Community Spirit" which is forced upon...I mean inherent to, this place

The 'ol "if you don't like it, go away" policy works for me.  Personally, I don't torture myself by hanging around places that I don't like.  But -- I suppose that others are inherently masochistic by nature, and insist upon eating at restaurants where they can't stand the taste of the food.  Talk about 'force-feeding'...........

It's the 'ol tried-'n-true game of vehemently denying the importance of something, and then spending copious amounts of time in attacking that unimportant thing.....with just about every chance that one gets to do so.

This has the effect of turning that unimportant thing into an icon.  Icons have a shared characteristic -- they are always irrisitably attractive to iconoclasts.  Much like insects banging their heads against a streetlamp.  They just can't help themselves.

I like to know what's for sale at my local supermarket.  It could be that I might want some.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"No, I only find fault with what they are doing, which is masquerading as a serious art site, while essentially being little more than the clay aisle in an art supply store."

I won't comment on the rest of your posts because I have disagreements with Rosity myself and my views are well known. But I'm not a person to fight battles I can't win, and in the end aren't important enough to risk my rather fragile health getting excited over.

Is Rosity an art site? No. Neither is Cgsociety or any other site on the net. Any good, professional site that displays art is in the business of making money to support itself. That's the real;ity of the world. I see nothing wrong with it, apart from the sad fact I can't make a few bucks myself and improve my miserable life. Sure, it would be nice to have a site totally dedicated to art. Maybe you could put one up on geocities.

The art on Rosity depends on the users. 90% of what gets posted here is well meaning amateurs who just aren't there yet, but are trying, and hoping to get help to get better. 8% of the rest is an attempt at creating art. And 2% actually reaches the realm of art. CGsociety has a slightly larger percentage, but not by much. Oh sure, those who post there are more technically proficient, but that doesn't mean their work is art. True CG art is rare. Just like true art in the real world is rare.

If you have issues with Rosity, by all means raise them. But don't complain about there being no art here. Go make some.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

Bone, the argument isn't about what is art, what isn't/ what is valid, what isn't - it's about how it's presented, and, if you read all this recent from last night, you'd notice I was replying to the "can get anything 3D from here" idea.

Xeno:
Don't give me the n00b treatment, like, if I don't like it I should just shove off, and I don't have a right to my opinion. I've been here as a member for quite a while now, as I know you have been, too.

"Insects banging their heads against streetlamps..."

I think that sentence inadvertently relates my very feelings regarding the direction of this site, so, thank you for pointing it out.

*Flash makes its appearence on so many webpages that I don't believe that the matter should even be open to question.  Flash is everywhere.  3D simply is not.  Many people who wouldn't have a clue about 3D are well-versed in Flash.

*I think you're confusing Flash as a website tool with Flash as a standalone art form here.

*For example -- your favorite site (Newgrounds) vs. youtube.  I suppose that this means that youtube's submission policies are "superior" to those of Newgrounds.  Even though youtube and Newgrounds are dealing with totally different types of subject matter.

*Here, you're confusing an art and games site (Newgrounds) with a site that mixes art, communication, commentary, and all sorts of other things (Youtube).  Not so much different types of subject matter, but different purposes of subject matter.

*I have no objections to cgsociety.  If CG was the way that I made my living, then I'd probably join up there  (*Perhaps Rendo should become a subscription site, too.).  Cgsociety is more "apple-ey" vis-a-vis Rendo than a site like Newgrounds -- but you still aren't dealing with precisely the same type of website.  3D is one aspect of CG -- but only one.  CG involves a lot more than just 3D work.

Well, if you're going to talk about whether something is "precisely" the same website, you can defend yourself to eternity just by defining terms.  Cgsociety is a place where both professionals, and people who want to learn, post artwork, discuss techniques, and buy from the website store.  Renderosity involves aspects of CG beyond 3D as well.  They have the same purpose, and same major features.

*It's interesting that you would pick cgsociety, because you aren't likely to find the type of work that is often complained about not being allowed in the galleries here over there, either.

*Look, I've seen a dismembered penis on a dinner plate with a fork stuck in it on that site.  The artist was going to title it "Genitals for lunch" before deciding on some other title (what was it - "Not Kosher"..?)

The artists were cool with it.

*Perhaps Rendo should take note of that fact -- and become even MORE restrictive.  Doing what cgsociety does -- and individually reviewing submissions to the main galleries before allowing them to be posted.  Wouldn't that go over well..........

*Cgsociety's central focus is its forums, not its gallery.  The majority of new and incoming work comes through forum posts.

*A website -- just like any other type of business -- has to know who their customers are.  And then they have to tailor their appeal to that specific base.  I believe that cgsociety has accomplished this -- and I believe that Renderosity has likewise accomplished this.

Well, I disagree in a way that's my central thrust, here.  Despite having the kind of growth that many website have had, Renderosity has failed to live up to its true potential owing to the fact that it struggles with its base, trying to protect the website from a sense of offense that the artists in Renderosity, for the most part, just don't have.

And this is why other websites of the same purpose (a phrase that I consider more insightful and important than the phrase in its field) do as well as they do - they let the artists be as irrepressible as artists can be.

*Frankly, something puzzles me.  I don't understand why I would waste my time hanging around and sniping at a place that I considered to be so unimportant in the overall scheme of things.

• Xenophonz, I don't dislike Renderosity - or at least, I don't dislike the pictures that get posted to this site.

But I can be disappointed in it, even if I like the site.  So I've been personally boycotting the place, reducing my viewing to the one or two artists I like the most.

So one day, I visit the forum and see Xenophonz giving the usual line - "If cutting artistic freedom is wrong, why is the site doing so well?"  I'd heard it before, and decided to finally say something.

People have argued the point before, complaining about new and more limiting Terms of Service, but it was always from a standpoint of artistic freedom and what's right or wrong; artists who were hurt that their options were cut off, and were visiting the forum to make pleas to get their power back.  Those folks could easily have their vulnerable position turned against them in the argument.

I felt the debate needed someone more neutral, someone who the website didn't have any power over and couldn't be easily ignored by the tyranny of the majority; someone who would come in and say that people don't do what's right and fair for the hell of it, just to be nice - people do what's right and fair because it's good sense, it builds foundations, it protects you against the future.

Renderosity thinks that its artistic community is a hedge that needs to have its branches pruned; but no, it's a tree that needs to have its roots watered.

Maybe one day I can stop my boycott, eh?  Wouldn't that be great.  Because I liked old-school Renderosity.

Quote - I think you're confusing Flash as a website tool with Flash as a standalone art form here.

Nope.

Flash is -- first and foremost -- a website tool.  That's its primary purpose, and that's what the vast majority of Flash users use it for.  I am not denying that Flash can be used specifically to create art -- but I am pointing out that "art" is most definitely not what most Flash applications are created for -- unless if one considers ubiquitous web advertising to be an art form.

*> Quote - Here, you're confusing an art and games site (Newgrounds) with a site that mixes art, communication, commentary, and all sorts of other things (Youtube).  Not so much different types of subject matter, but different purposes of subject matter.

I'm not "confusing" anything.  You are the one who is confusing sites of varying purposes with one another in an attempt to draw non-existent parallels.  I, on the other hand, am pointing out the clear distinctions which exist between them.

*> Quote - Well, if you're going to talk about whether something is "precisely" the same website, you can defend yourself to eternity just by defining terms.  Cgsociety is a place where both professionals, and people who want to learn, post artwork, discuss techniques, and buy from the website store.  Renderosity involves aspects of CG beyond 3D as well.  They have the same purpose, and same major features.

While it is certainly true that Renderosity has aspects of CG beyond 3D -- I believe that most anyone would recognize that the emphasis here is decidedly upon 3D.  I don't believe that you can say that about cgsociety.  Cgsociety involves everything from gaming-specific graphics to film techniques to whatever -- everything CG.  While you can find all of that here, it isn't the primary focus.

Like I stated earlier -- perhaps the lesson here is that Renderosity should tighten up its forum policies and start individually reviewing submissions to the galleries before allowing them to be posted.  After all -- that's what cgsociety does.  And we need to follow their example in all things, right?

*> Quote - Look, I've seen a dismembered penis on a dinner plate with a fork stuck in it on that site.  The artist was going to title it "Genitals for lunch" before deciding on some other title (what was it - "Not Kosher"..?)

Not something that I personally care to see.  But there are websites where such subject matter is "kosher', and within the rules of those websites.  Rendo isn't one of them.

Quote - The artists were cool with it.

Good for them.

*> Quote - Cgsociety's central focus is its forums, not its gallery.  The majority of new and incoming work comes through forum posts.

That's good to know -- although a lot of work comes in through forum posts here, too.

Quote - Well, I disagree in a way that's my central thrust, here.  Despite having the kind of growth that many website have had, Renderosity has failed to live up to its true potential owing to the fact that it struggles with its base, trying to protect the website from a sense of offense that the artists in Renderosity, for the most part, just don't have.

Here you are making some substantive assumptions.  For one thing, you are taking attitudes which you hold to personally -- along with a few other occasional posters (a very tiny group, considering the website's overall membership) -- and then you are projecting those attitudes out onto a supposed majority.

Sorry -- but I reject the reasoning because I reject the underlying assumptions which the reasoning is founded upon.

Believe me -- the administration at Renderosity knows who their members are.  And they know what "the most part" of those members want.  By contrast, you are in no position to know the facts of the case as to what "the most part" wants -- nor are you in any position to claim that knowledge.

Quote - And this is why other websites of the same purpose (a phrase that I consider more insightful and important than the phrase in its field) do as well as they do - they let the artists be as irrepressible as artists can be.

Yep.  "Irrepressible".  Another word for "anything goes".  Cgsociety isn't "anything goes".  In fact, I know of very few websites which truly are "anything goes".  Even those websites which claim to be such have been known to expel unruly/unwanted members for the things that they were doing to the site.

If anyone wants to lay claim to the mantle of truly allowing "irrepressible" to be the ruling culture of their website -- then they can't have any rules.  Everyone should be allowed to do anything without being 'repressed' or hindered in any way.

Try running a website like that, and see what happens.  It wouldn't be too far removed from the concept of allowing the gangs to take over and rule downtown Los Angeles for their own amusement.  A few "bosses" with gangs of weaker hangers-on following them.  Advancement by stabbing the other one -- power by force.  Nice idea.  It's done on USENET -- but I'm not aware of too many websites of any size with such a culture.  Including cgsociety and Newgrounds.

*> Quote - Xenophonz, I don't dislike Renderosity - or at least, I don't dislike the pictures that get posted to this site.

But I can be disappointed in it, even if I like the site.  So I've been personally boycotting the place, reducing my viewing to the one or two artists I like the most.

So one day, I visit the forum and see Xenophonz giving the usual line - "If cutting artistic freedom is wrong, why is the site doing so well?"  I'd heard it before, and decided to finally say something.

I note the quotation marks around the above statement.  But I don't recall ever typing out those words anywhere.........I believe that it's called 'putting words in someone else's mouth'.

With the statement "if cutting artistic freedom is wrong", you have attributed your opinions to me.

"Artistic freedom" isn't a synonym for anarchy.  Although that's obviously the way that some would like to define it for the rest of us.

Some hold to a principle which states: "We can force you to be free."  The essence of freedom, of course, being defined for the rest of us.  Not being a thing whose nature we are permitted to define for and by ourselves -- under the rules which we prefer to live by.  No, no......we must have 'freedom'.  And we must have it your way.  Not our way.

It's another example of the truth of the old adage: "Freedom isn't free."  Especially not when the inmates are allowed to run the asylum.

Quote - People have argued the point before, complaining about new and more limiting Terms of Service, but it was always from a standpoint of artistic freedom and what's right or wrong; artists who were hurt that their options were cut off, and were visiting the forum to make pleas to get their power back.  Those folks could easily have their vulnerable position turned against them in the argument.

I felt the debate needed someone more neutral, someone who the website didn't have any power over and couldn't be easily ignored by the tyranny of the majority; someone who would come in and say that people don't do what's right and fair for the hell of it, just to be nice - people do what's right and fair because it's good sense, it builds foundations, it protects you against the future.

Renderosity thinks that its artistic community is a hedge that needs to have its branches pruned; but no, it's a tree that needs to have its roots watered.

Maybe one day I can stop my boycott, eh?  Wouldn't that be great.  Because I liked old-school Renderosity.

 

This is a common technique seen in use among left-leaning political debaters.  They always want to claim to be "neutral" on any given topic -- when it's quite clear that they have staked out a position which is anything but "neutral".  It's just that they prefer to avoid the baggage which accompanies their true position -- were they to stand flat-footed and defend it.  The technique represents a neat little bit of verbal side-stepping -- holding to a point of view -- and then claiming that one's personal point of view represents "neutrality".  When it so obviously does not.

I believe that there's plenty of inspiration to be had here.  That's one reason why I hang around.

Another reason is that it's just plain fun.

But those reasons are my own -- others are welcome to their reasons.  It's all an individual thing.  And that's a part of being in this place.

Renderosity is a lot bigger than it used to be.  And it's still growing, too.  Most websites have ups and downs over time --  even google is sometimes "down" in the overall traffic rankings.  But I don't think that google has anything to worry about.  Neither does Renderosity.  And this goes against all of the predictions which have been made by the doomsayers over the years.

BTW - as a side note, do a google on "Alexa".  You'll find that there is a major, on-going, and raging controversy over the accuracy of Alexa's traffic rankings.  Personally, I tend to believe that Alexa is in the ballpark.  But I wouldn't rely on them for even 85% accuracy.  After all -- Alexa tracks and obtains its rankings via spyware which users allow Alexa to install on their computers.  I'd never have it on mine.  I'd dare say that most web-literate types wouldn't, either.

As for boycotts -- they generally don't work.  Especially when such boycotts are practiced by a handful of individuals vs. "the most part" simply ignoring them.

I like new Renderosity.  A lot of other people do, too.  That's why they are here in such numbers.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Flash may be omnipresent, that's true. But I have yet to see any flash that I consider art.. Some clever animations, yes, but not art.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

Is Rendo at fault for the amateurish art in the gallery?  Yes and no.  Yes by not having an acceptance policy, no because, well, the gallery is free for all to use.  So, the only way to not have an amateurish gallery is to go through submissions and only allow certain pieces.  And no one on staff gets paid that much to have to go through that, LOL.
Is Rendo at fault for 3D apps besides Poser "feeling welcome and loved"...in so many words...?
No.  1, if every time it was mentioned, Poser didn't start the "Great App Wars", I'm pretty sure most CG sites in general would get along.  But, in any forum, there's gonna be the "my app's better than yours" bullshit posts.  It's childish, and, frankly, wrong.  I've seen work in a lot of different programs, and, frankly, a lot of it, of all genre's, is complete crap.  I want to say "great, you've modelled a coffee cup, textured a funny saying onto the side.  Your lighting is bullshit, and why the hell is it in the desert?"  Or...."Ok, I get it.  It's perfectly find for you to render a horribly-lit naked chick (which are most times horribly modelled or morphed) in an expensive renderer, but if I did it in Poser, it would be rubbish.  I totally get it ! "  most times i'm in galleries....because, frankly, it's not the tool.  It's the user of said tool. 
However, by it's nature and affordability, Poser is popular here.  And, because we live in a society where you can get a "college degree" in 2 years, you can get your burger just the way you want it, and fast, and home PC's start at 2GB of RAM......people want fast and easy.  Is it easier to use stock figures, textures, poses, and lighting?  You betcha.  Easy will attract those who want to know and want to know RIGHT NOW!!!!!  Not those who want to learn, and are willing to take it easy.  Oh, there are a few of those around.  A few.  But, is THAT Rendo's fault?  Nope.  It's up to each of us to decide how big of an @sshole we're going to be when we come to the forums.  It's also up to each of us how we expect to figure out how to use any of these programs.  I look at things this way.  ILM and WETA....they use stock figures, lighting scenarios, textures, and poses to get the job done.  Sure, they make 'em in-house, but they use them over and over.  What they don't do is expect everything to be done for them.  What they do?  Push themselves to the limits.  I'm totally guilty of not doing this most times.  But, really, I think it's a 50/50 as to who's at fault...between the n00bs and the jerks yelling RTFM!!!  n00bs expect everything to be done for them, and the jerks expect everyone (excluding them) to be experts.  Meanwhile, those actually contributing to the community, via tutorials, freestuff, content, and tips....usually feel like they're being pushed out in order for yet another Rendo fight.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

I'd hate to lose the amateurs posting. How else can they learn? They need a site like rosity. We all started out as amateurs, and frankly, a lot of us got a lot of help in improving from other people right here. It's one of the greatest strengths of this site.

I've never been thrilled with the poser heavy bias here, but frankly I don't care what program someone uses to make art. It isn't important. Good art is good art. I think people get a false impression of poser here because, being poser heavy, and poser being an affordable and popular program, the percentage of not so good work posted is higher than other programs. It's a fair cop unless you're a software obsessive poseur who thinks any other software is substandard. Me, I've seen some brilliant work done in poser posted here. The kind of stuff I envy. You get out of software, ANY software, what you put in it. I've been known to work on a scene for months. Other people want to do it in hours.

At the moment, I don't have any solid recommendations to make to improve rosity. So I also will not criticise it. I just don't think youy should criticise something unless you can make positive suggestions to improve it or fix it.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

:lol:  See, that's exactly what I meant.  I need to find out how everyone else is blessed with the "concise" tool, and I get the "blabber on for hours, and usually get mistaken" tool.  damnit!!

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

yeah...that was my one and only cat pic :lol: 
Where's Tom when ya need 'im?

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

:laugh:

Oh man, I love cat pics!

Lillian Hawkins
Marketing Manager
By serving each other, we are free.

We need like a creative cats gallery or something lol

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

:lol: Ya'll crack me up

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
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Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

Quote - We need like a creative cats gallery or something lol

you mean....that's not what this forum is about?

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.