Thank YOU for the slap during my short absence! Especially only after a couple of days that you told me in public how welcome my posts are around this forum.. It's just so sad to find out that Renderosity is adopting & reminishing the Willow days... :o( Autarchy, back and forth talk, just cleaning up the wheat from its hard cover.. and old members are just that I guess.. a hard cover that needs to be broken, squeezed, demolished and discarded, God knows for which utter plan a mind has concieved, especially after all the trouble and debates administration went through to make this place the most commercial oriented in Poser Land! :o( You didn't listen to us back then, why should you listen now? But I refuse to allow you to put a "merchant" tag on me as well, as I'm no sort of a cattle! :o( You got in the trouble to put us on a vote whether we should rename a product or not, but we have NO word on deciding where we should post.. even if we are avoiding links! This back and forth policy just reminds me of a cat chasing its tail! People tend soo easily to forget the past, subside and put in ghettos those we stood by them when things were hard.. Let's face it, others may not dare say so but I will- it's the best & oldest who've survived successfully in becoming merchants around this place since Jack Krammer brought the plague of commercialism over us (also WITHOUT asking but with YOUR full blessings)! It's also those whom you are disregarding and bypassing as non welcome here anymore that have kept the Poser forum alive and made Renderosity what it is today! Why do I get the feeling that this dog bites the hands that fed him for so long? Why do I get the feeling that this recent TOS update was cut and tailored specifically for PWFW? Am I too suspicious or paranoid? Well.. maybe! I'm sorry guys, but what I do is about Poser.. not a store or any merchant or commercial thingie! If you want to add a price tag on it, be my guest.. a dime for an item with texture pak included, some times ON SALE too.. just for a few pennies! What a merchant INDEED!!!! How dared we to turn subscription to cover our bandwidth cost.. guilty indeed! It was all available for free and it would have stayed so up to now if our bandwith hadn't been constantly abused so badly, but you're too well aware of that so what's the point? You still put a tag on us! You consider subscription sites commercial BUT.. you forgto that I've NEVER considered myself a merchant.. I was forced to follow the flow in order to survive and have a place to put up my work - as YOU were the ones who set the new guidlines but seem to conveniently forget - not myself.. however, don't you ever dare to call me a "merchant"! Bottom line, since I'm no longer allowed to post where I belong - among the people I know and got to know over the past years, but just have to be ostrasized as a parasite at some other forum that means absolutely NOTHING to me... goodbye and goodluck as you won't hear from me again - since obviously this is what you had in mind once composing that! How many subs site are we are all around really? Five, ten? How many merchants? around 500 I think! Gee.. we subs DO take lots of precious space in this forum indeed! VL grin Don't worry, you can ban me freely for my big mouth if you wish as I'll do you the favour to take down the PWFW store items too..Where I'm not welcome, none of my work is either! As we say in Greece - once you get the feeling that what you say goes in one ear and out the other (and I'm almost certain THIS is the case here, so I'm just wasting my breath) it's time to move on... Those who care to keep updated on my work know where to find me.. but definately NOT in that competition oriented lions arena you've created and taged it "Merchants Forum"! Rena

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Please don't go! I consider you a friend, not a merchant-- but that's not too different how I feel about most of the people I've bought something or other from around here. Emily

They're forgetting how they got where they are...and how easy it is to be forgotten g

Grrr... and I had that adventurer's texture pack on my wishlist... oh well, guess I'll never get it now. :(

Hi Rena I'm not a merchant (yet), and I'm not a member of admin or a mod either, so this is just one person's opinion.... The Net is changing. Free access, free bandwidth, and to a large extent, free content are vanishing. This is very regrettable, but I'm not sure anyone at R'osity can do very much about it. It seems to me that sites have two choices - embrace the plague of commercialism, and at least try to make it as fair as possible - or get squashed. R'osity is a lot more than just the Poser Forum now. I think that's its strength If it has to balance out the good stuff with some commercial activity - well; 'the labourer is worthy of his hire' as the good book says. I would rather have that, than see my favourite resource and meeting place destroyed. I'm obviously not privvy to some of the stuff you mention, but I think it would be a shame if you left on account of something that seems inevitable. Having a Product Showcase Forum for saleable items actually helps keep the spirit of the Poser Forum non commercial, while allowing the needed money making to go on. I think it a fair and reasonable compromise with an unfortunate reality. I'm sure it was not aimed at you personally. Please reconsider your position - or at least take a day or two to think it over regards peejay

I wish you the best renapd! I myself am going to try and fight this one. Already I had a few questions but I have decided the questions are not worth asking. If I want to post a link I will, due to the fact that it will be the answer to what someone has asked of me. Who knows, perhaps I may be forced out for this eventually. If that is the case, I will definatly need a new home.

peejay, this goes much further then that. I agree the Showcase forum is for true advertisements of products. But now lets say someone in the poser forum asks where to find a particular item. You are no longer allowed to tell them. Let's say someone is looking for a particular tutorial. You can't tell them where that tutorial is if the author has it on a subscription site. The answer to both of these questions eventually will become, "I know where but I can't tell you." Now if anyone here tries to build thier own business it seems that they will no longer be welcome to say anything. This will only serve to keep people shackled to this site as no new ones will be allowed to state that they exist if they are comercial sites. Oh and all the admins need to be banned for promoting outside comercial links. Take a look at the webring top 15 some of those are commercial sites and they draw traffic INTO renderosity. If this idea of no longer allowing links continues then not only will people have to go elsewhere to find the resources they need, but sites will no longer be willing to link back to here. It only serves to hurt everyone.

Rena. I've already talked to Steve about This. I'm sorry it played out this way. ScottA

Thanks for explaining that, but I still think folk have got the wrong end of the stick here. Please correct me if I have misunderstood this, but doesn't the new TOS say that you cannot post a LINK in the forum? It does not say that you cannot say; it's on so-and-so's site over at such-and-such a place, as long as the LINK is not used. I saw this as being to do with the mechanics of who pays who for what when sites are accessed - plus the problem of course of hitting a brick wall if you post a link to a subscription site when people following it aren't subscribers. as for not being able to find stuff - well if you know the name of the site then Google will take about half a second to give you the URL so is it really that much of a problem? Like I said, please do correct me if this is not the case... and does anyone from admin want to pitch in?

I just read the TOS, it didn't say anything about linking to merchant sites, just adult sites. Or am I under different TOS because I'm Not A Merchant? Emily

Where can the TOS be found? Can someone post a link to it so we can read it? Melanie

"Additionally, we would hope that each member/user would do their best to facilitate a culture of collaboration and positive reinforcement, so that we can all share our passion for art while realizing our personal ambitions, and developing friendships." (Quoted from the Renderosity TOS) This mean anything anymore, or should there be an addendum that reads: "as long as it doesn't promote someone else's commercial website (based on our assesment), or otherwise interfere with our own commercial efforts." I originally came to Renderosity as a Poser 'hobbyist'...I toyed with it now and then, ever since Poser 2 (Still have my original CD). Since then, Poser and related have become a very big part of my life. I'm going to be doing my first commercial exhibition at GenCon this year. Granted, it's only a few pieces...but it's certainly more than I ever expected. Along the way I've made a lot of what I consider friends...Xena, Sturkwurk, Richabri, Rena, Valandar, Jeweldragon, Bloodsong, KattMan, Audre...and that's hardly the full list. I don't care if they're selling items or not...they've helped me develop as an artist. I like giving that back...and if that means I post a link to a site that sells things R'osity doesn't, or if I recommend a subscription site, then so what? I'm helping someone else develop as an artist...same as was done for me. My own 'commercial' site is already in the works. Why? Because I've evolved to that point, and it's time for me to do so. But damned if I'm going to stop folks from directing others to stuff I can't or don't provide...because they'll come back for what I DO offer. Just my two cents... ChromeTiger

Oh, and Rena, please don't leave us. You're one of our most valued members here. I'd hate to see you drop out of sight. You'd be missed way too badly. Melanie

peejay, What is the difference between saying go to posercity.com and simply adding the www to it and making it a link? The problem here is that once they pull links, just typeing posercity.com is going to get people to say I posted a link and next thing you know I won't even be able to mention the site like that.

But I think most people would have gotten that notion by now. Here's what I know. These things all improved and were diversified because of interaction between customers and merchants: the packages from PWFW's last upload, and heck the one before that; several of spectre3's packages' both of PhilC's Romantics-- [part of those had to be sequestered in the Product Forum, where I hang out, but not too many other people do, or at least they don't post] This means, we got more stuff, to buy or not, and we got to express feedback on what we wanted and needed. Not only that, talking to designers when they are coming up with a product lowers the barrier between us and them. I do consider the people I buy from friends, and if I don't, I dont' buy anymore. I've said before that Renderosity is different than other commercial environments because of it's friendly co-operative nature. I would Hate to see that change. It makes no sense, either from a point of view of communication in open forum, or commercial sense. Neither of us on either side of the money barrier are gonna get what we want-- in terms of civility and interchange of ideas. I suppose this all came up because of some complaints about advertising in this forum. Wouldn't a simple addendum to the subject-- ADVERT-- be easier? Emily aka queri

Oh dear, this just seems to be my day for chiming in on controversy. Rena, you do what you have to do, girl, I know where to find you and I know how to send other folks your way. Now, for the rest of you. Rena and Steve have been here since day one. They provided a wealth of items for free for absolutely YEARS until their bandwidth costs became so great that they actually had to close down their sites. Well, such an uproar over that let me tell you. Every other post, it seems, was someone begging them to find another way. Gods forbid we should lose our single largest supply of freestuff other than Renderosity. So, they considered their options and they went the subscription route. Are they making money hand over fist? I sincerely doubt it. Are they in competition with Renderosity? Not on your life. As for posting a link to the subscription site, well, guess what, part of the TOS for PWFW FORBIDS its members from giving out the URL for the subscription area. Members of PWFW are required to direct people to the FREE site, where they can either download the free items of the week/month OR they can choose to buy a subscription. I'm telling you here and now, if Rena and Steve leave over this we will be losing possibly one of the top three greatest resources available to Poser. And I, for one, will miss those wonderful SITE UPDATE announcements Rena posts here among the usual drek of the Poser forum. Every time I see one of Rena's posts it's a rare treat, and to think it will be going away because they were forced to go "commercial" in order to continue to provide our greedy selves with the high quality items we took so much for granted, well, it breaks my heart, that's what it does, and it makes me wonder if there really IS any hope for this so-called community. Kate (becoming more disillusioned by the second lately)

You know, I started to write my comment above in Poser Forum and by the time I posted it, it had been moved to wherever the H this is. I know it is hard to communicate reason and civility in mere words without tone to back it up-- but in all honesty-- one cannot hide from open problems and you cannot shuffle them around to forums some people don't even know exist and hope they will go away. I have liked and respected the mods around here. At this particular moment, my feelings are very mixed. Emily Garlick

Will the person who wrote the new TOS please stand up and admit to it?

Rena's Site Update posts to the Poser Forum are one of the few things I take time to stop and read no matter how busy I am. They are always the very highlight of my day, sometimes my week. Rena and I go way way back, began as enemies, and wound up as busom buddies who share everything. Ironically, it was the store itself and early battles over whether it should exist that almost made us enemies forever. Had that happened, I would have unbeknownst to me lost one of my dearest and closest friends, a woman who is like my own sister. That she and Steve had to go to subscription to be able to go on hosting their huge library of wonderful things for all does not in any way make them a profit making or money making organization, since the subscriptions hardly cover the bandwidth, let alone Rena's and Steves wonderful god given talent. Without Rena and Steve, this community would not be where it is today, and if they go it will be the poorer for the loss.

{{{{But now lets say someone in the poser forum asks where to find a particular item. You are no longer allowed to tell them....Let's say someone is looking for a particular tutorial. You can't tell them where that tutorial is if the author has it on a subscription site...The answer to both of these questions eventually will become, "I know where but I can't tell you."}}}} Harumph, got so upset and excited over Rena's devastating news that I forgot half of what I wanted to say. There is not now, and never will be a restriction on where to post your advertising renders, your WIP renders, links to other sites, links to offsite tutorials, off topic posts, debate and duke it out posts, and even complaint posts about the administration on any site, even ours, without you or anyone else disappearing, etc, over on www.poserpros.com If you need free training in a friendly stress free environment, taught by the best of the best, such as Vairesh, Xurge, Jaager, Jim Burton, Xena, Helen, Thorne, FaerieGurl, KateTheShrew, PJF, Doc Legume, Alla, Dark_Whisper, Dolly, Laurie_S, Pendarian, Jen, LisaB, Cin- and of course rcook and myself, then PoserPros is for you! :)

I think I stopped by there recently, I just spend so much time here that, well you know... Might change in the near future though. Not saying I'm leaving, just might be a little less accessable here.

sigh The admin really want to lose what this site USED to be good for.

I find this simply amazing! Who's big idea was this now? Not only two days ago ScottA stated tha PWFW updates were welcome in the Poser Forum. sigh I really think you're going to regret this one. :(

What we do in life, echoes in eternity.

E-mail | Renderosity Homepage | Renderosity Store | RDNA Store

Well, if they keep it up, we've got other places to go. Maybe it's starting to sink in and they're getting nervous. Should have been nicer to people while they were here. And they still haven't learned.

"Not only two days ago ScottA stated tha PWFW updates were welcome in the Poser Forum."

Updates are fine, but overt commercial advertising is not.

The policy hasn't really changed, these type of posts have been moved from the start.

There was alot of confusion this time around and the words "subscription pages" were added to clear it up for the moderators who have to enforce the policy.

This post was obviously a commerical advertisement for the subscription area and complaints came in.

In fairness to Rena, Steve and ScottA the post was allowed to stay. Future ones like it will be moved under this policy.

-JeffH.

I'm curious. I don't post in the poser forum much, because I haven't even worked ny way up to newbie with poser yet, lol. But I hear people either complaining that there are too many ads in the Poser forum, how can anyone learn. I also hear people complaining that it is an infringement to their liberties to have any sort of post restricted, especially to the Merchant's Forum. (Which for some reason seems to be equated with evil, or at least capitalism.) How do you make everyone happy in asituation like this? All the people- the ones who want to post helpful links, the ones who want to just learn, the merchants- everyone? If someone suddenly told you "okay, it's your call" what would you do?

Michele, personally I think the whiners need to find something better to whine about. Don't like a thread, don't read it. Is it that hard NOT to click on a thread link? I hate having to read 6 forums for what used to be on one. OTOH, nevermind, I'm gonna go where posts don't disappear on me all the time.

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com

Well Micheleh, do you want an honest answer to your query? You see, we have about the exact same really active posting member base as Rosity, since as we all know only approximately 5% of Rosity's members post, and that 5% are almost all now over on PoserPros posting to their hearts content anywhere and everywhere on the forum, with absalutely no restrictions placed upon them, nor expectations, nor TOS to tie and bind, other than our anti-porn rules. And they are all happy seeming. They do not spend massive amounts of time complaining, we have NEVER gotten a letter of complaint, etc. So maybe just letting them do what they want to do is the answer to your question, the one of how do you make everyone happy. http://www.poserpros.com What Have You Learned Today?

Hrm. Interesting. Paul Have you gratuitously plugged your site, today?

Ok, so that means we can't post links to DAZ or Curiouslabs either...maybe they ought to know. And also, the links to their sites should come down, they are after all, overt advertising, and a rule is a rule.

WRONG movida... Links to DAZ, RuntimeDNA and other places that sell items ONE by one & heavy commercial ARE allowed!!! At least those charge an item of what it would sell to the store too.. they don't offer bargains! That's what's pissed me off! Having the subs that offer so much more at more reasonable prices shoveled into that forum that honestly I don't see what's its meaning for! If someone wanted to read about new products and all about them.. the store pages are more than plenty and give out the FULL info! I think it has to do with exactly the opposite of what the administration claims.. it has to do with the store sales and any kind of competition that doesn't serve that! Just pamper the ones we have profit from.. put the rest in a ghetto where none will bother to read! Why I believe that? Simple! 500 merchants with the majority of them putting up the store at least ONE new product a week, leads us close to 500 new posts in the Merchants Forum.. now just tell me, who would be stupid enough to watch 500 commercials on TV waiting for the one he is looking after to come up in the lot... and just don't go over to the store itself, contact a search and find it! Well??? To me it's pretty clear, they want to orient the users further more towards visiting the store.. everything else is just excuses, bubble talk and more excuses! Poser Forum is what made this place what it is! Splitting it up in so many departments that none knows anymore what goes on.. it's nothing else but a well methodized brain wash and manipulation to me! Otherwise, all posts concerning poser - commercial or none - should stay put in one place and database if they DO care truly about having a valuable resourse! It only takes a choice of what headline to click or not to.. at least that's what I do myself and I'm not a genious! As to the complains..I'd really love to see the "long" list of complainers posted publicly ANYPLACE! That would be fun indeed! Wouldn't the rest of you want to see those too guys? They should be thousands to force the Administration change it's policy overnight! VL grin And yes, I'd love to know as well - if he/she has the gutts to step forward - WHO has decided the extra line addition to the TOS.. that would be further interesting to know who plays it a friend and stubs you in the hack! VL grin And this post having been moved to the TEAM & NEWS forum... LOL What a TEAM indeed and it's a piece of news guys that I don't sell myself out or give up when I know I'm right! Read all about it! VL grin What happened to the good old Complaint and Debate Forum? It got shoveled too as it served nothing for you anymore though plenty to all the rest of us who used to hang around there... and you expect me to shut up? Well.. there's only one way guys to get rid of me for good and make me stop saying things as they really are! I think you know it.. Keep on hinding Renderosity behind your little finger.. .it WORKS! VL grin Rena PS: To melanie and the rest.. I*'m not living poser.. I'm just not setting foot to the poser forum again till this gets resolved fair and sqare OR they ban me... choice is theirs but I want it IN PUBLIC.. not through personal emails!

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

I was one of the people, who argued for the Product Showcase forum. I use it quite much to form an opinion of new products. I thought and still think, it is a good idea to have a forum for merchants to advertise their products in detail and maintain customer relationship.

What i didn't envisage was that instead of more choices we now have a ghettoisation of vendors.
Rena's subscription posts are advertising for a subscription site. They are also posts of someone who takes pride in his works and wants to show them off, independent of the monetary angle.
If such things aren't allowed in the Poser forum, it is a loss for this forum.

BTW I really hate it if posts are moved without notice. It makes me a all queasy and paranoid. :P

There has never been a post by us "advertising" all posts have been a simple PWFW has been updated statement so using the advertisment angle falls on dead ground, post showing are work at worst have the statement "to be included on the next update" and some have nothing so from that i think this is as Rena says just a push out the competion ploy...Which brings me to my next point it was stated that outside vendors where welcome to show there works here so if you now decided that this wasn't a good idea then why the hell didn't you get intouch with us so we could work something out together instead of a sly push in the back....We work with other folks to try and bring sites together and help our members and help the folks we work with, if i sound vague its coz i'm avoiding names as this isn't anyone elses problem but PWFW and R ....Then theres the issue of the product showcase forum too, i was never happy with us being shoved over there, it was to me a "you've served your purpose now go away approach" anyone complaining could have been simply told that the store was what paid for the site to stay up....I've said in a few posts where folks don't agree with the site policy that its there site and we must do as they wish, but maybe this is no longer 100% true seeing the vendors pay for the upkeep (i know i know its the customers, but no vendors = no customers) so maybe its time they listened to the vendors..But what REALLY pissed me off, and i hate to drag this all up again but when we had this row at the PFO (we obeyed there posting rules to the letter but the last one was removed for being commercial) but it turns out the real reason they gave was coz we had put a support item in the renderosity store.....And NOW renderosity do the same thing...kinda ironic i guess .......Steve

I tend to agree completely with Kate, and won't bother posting much more as I'll just repeat what she says. One day people will learn, unfortunately it seems that lessons are not learned until it's too damned late to do anything about it. Centrism in itself isn't a bad thing, but when it's a blatant and rather stupid attempt at monopolisation it becomes harmfull to itself and to people associated with it. The banning of links to commercial sites and subscription sites is patently ridiculous. If people can't find what they want they'll go elsewhere where they can find these things. Is Renderosity really meaning to kill itself? One can't help but wonder if Mickey Mouse is making policy here these days. Or maybe it's one of the other cartoon critters, Goofy, Wille Coyote or Elmer Fudd. One of them has to be responsible because this is getting ridiculous to the point of laughable. TOS provided by ACME Corporation...

Guys, they don't care if we post or don't post. Not posting isn't a boycott. We'll still be here (hits) and buy from the marketplace (money). Those are critical areas. Not posting will serve them also...less use of bandwidth. The banning of links to commercial/subscription sites may be illegal (FTC) but it'd take a court case to prove it. Bondware is in (I think) Tennessee or somewhere southeast...my point being it's still in the USofA. And although the business is conducted online...it's conducted through telephone lines (or cable or satellite or whatever). In any case, some part of the system is land based. It sure would be fun to watch lmao

"Will the person who wrote the new TOS please stand up and admit to it? " It was a group effort. We all managed to get together and fuck it up collectively. ;] At least on the origional redesign a ways back, not completely sure on this latest one - my attentions been elsewhere. I'm with Kate and Questor - do what you need to do, Rena. To my mind, I think they have the right interpretation - it's an atempt at policy that's only benefit seems to be in losing us more and more resources, and more and more older members that the community needs to keep, not alienate. I have to ask... just when did the vendors and the people who manage other site, even commercial or subscription sites become the enemy here? I always thought we were members first, vendors and site owners second. Guess the world changed when I wasn't looking.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

OK, the way I see it is this: The difference between a "Commercial" site and a "Subscription" site is that with a "Commercial" site, the money goes into the owner's pocket. They make a profit. They do it to earn money. With a "Subscription" site, no one profits. Money doesn't go into anyone's pocket. No one makes money from it. It's all funneled into supporting the servers in order to host the site. So, folks, let's get this straight: Subscription sites are NOT commerical. They should not be considered commercial in any way. No one is getting anything out of it except the people who come to get the items that area offered. It just amazes me that every Poser and 3D site I've been a member of has sooner or later gone this way. It's always just a matter of time before the admins and moderators become control freaks. That's what happened with the original PFO. That was a sad loss, all because of the controlling nature of the folks who ran it. They stuck their heads in the noose and pulled it too tight, strangling themselves in the process. That's what will happen here if they aren't careful. I can only hope that Rena and Steve will still post their updates in the Poser Forum. That's where it belongs, for crying out loud, it's all Poser related stuff. If you can't display Poser things in the Poser Forum, then there's definitely something wrong here. Just my little rant. I'll sit back and be quiet now. Melanie

ROTFLMAO It was a group effort. We all managed to get together and fuck it up collectively And what people don't realise is how very close to the truth that is. I know, I've seen it in action first hand. (wanders off to try to recover and get some breath back) Damn you 'bear, I'm supposed to be taking it easy. Melanie - Very well said. Round of applause for that lady. :)

Well???? Isn't that how committees do things, Quest? innocent look

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

sigh Rena, FYI - You guys are appreciated... :) Jackie -Goes HOME to 3DC-

Well, Renderosity magazine is bringing in newbies by the drove I suspect. Don't want THEM to know there are other places. Also, the freebie Poser3 (or whatever on the magazine CD) same deal. The corporate mindset reveals itself yet again...the marketing guy must have gone to the school of "*uck 'em and feed 'em beans"

Yes.. that's how committees do things Ironbear! Too darn right! VL grin But the "latest" TOS update is not the hand of a committee, I'm afraid! It's the hand of some personal enemy who got paniced by the latest huge PWFW update.. as the e TOS was revised the very next day to the convient additon of three words "..including subscriptions sites"! Not to mention that someone spread this hint of inappropriate forum posting right within that same post... sounds not so innocent to me more and more! So I think I have the full right to know WHO he/she is who composed that extra line and on what reasoning grounds with the facts of the number of Poser subscriptions sites in existance at the moment ... don't you want to find out too? Not enough gutts to step forward and say YES..I am the one who didi this! ?? I'm sure he/she has been notified how the convenient change hasn't passed by so inocently as hoping once composed! It's indeed outrageous and silly that warm headed one considered suddenly that PWFW is a threat and competition somehow.. and exciled along with us the Poserstyle new fine site, Katharina's even older than ours one and so many more who've showed excellent work and have so much to offer in this community! Even myself I've spent all I've earned in the store with in store credit for god's sake.. and most of our members spend bundles in there too! Don't they realize that Poser is a collective addiction? So what the hell did he/she got scared of ? The more you know it's available the more you want to own even if you never end up using it.. now tell me I'm just not right on thatm but.. AFTER you've taken a good look at your Poser installment on your HD! Anybody! It's a HOBBY most of all.. when will they see that? That person obviously doesn't, as all he/she can see is dollar signs in his/her eyes! And I consider this pathetic!@:o( I DON"T like stubbing at my back by strangers, I don't like being hurt by people I've never wished bad for, I hate to have to talk to someone using both adjectives he and she... so let's stop forward and talk face to face... is this so much I ask for? If so easy to take decisions that alter people's habits and vanish their work previews and members rights.. should at least be able to debate in public instead of hiding behind the "administration" general description! You know.. I could play the game same as you.. I could just go ahead and post without a PWFW subs logo, and instead of mentioning to be included in the next update as usual... start saying.. "where you can find it? I'm sorry but can't tell you.. Recent TOS update forbids me to.. but I'm sure you can figure it out! " I wonder what you'd do then.. move that away of the forum as well? Start playing the cat and mouse game? What? I'm just fed up, disgusted and outrageous by the fact of being treated differently than others, simply because I work so hard and ask back for so little.. so until this gets PUBLICLY clarified even in here - at the God forgotten forum that you chose to shovel my post under the rug... hide a problem.. and it doesn't exist, right? Is that your new policy? I won't play it nasty though & will be patient for a while to hear back from you.. BUT.. to me it IS considered a declaration of WAR and I don't hide my feelings about it.. because you have offended me personally with alter motivation in mind with an overnight plot cut and tailored for our subs site and that.. I DON"T forgive that easily I'm afraid! :o( As neither would any of you either! Rena

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Oh hell, Rena. I don't have to look at my runtime folder. I'll never be able to afford all the stuff I want. I've been saving pennies trying to get far enough ahead for a poserworld subscription. No dice so far.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

I DON"T forgive that easily I'm afraid! :o( As neither would any of you either! Very true Rena, and something that certain people seem to be forgetting. Memories are long in this place, because there are old members who remember previous days. Apparently not the PTB though who seem bent on centrism, limitation and self destruction. Good luck to them, I hope they enjoy the grave they're digging for themselves. I just hope for the sake of the members here that someone with a little more interpersonnel skill and public savvy gets in charge before it's too late or there will be another Poser resource left to drown in it's own bile and control freakery.

Is Renderosity a product in and of itself? No. It's a compilation of artists who place their work in the marketplace, freestuff download section, gallery, forums, tutorial section, etc.

To restrict links to OTHER (that's a key word, please make note of it) 3D sites that do the same thing and Renderosity will look very foolish.

...... Kendra

We don't restrict anyone from posting in the Showcase forum and gallery. ALL commercial posts must go there, even Renderosity MarketPlace.

"There has never been a post by us "advertising" all posts have been a simple PWFW has been updated statement so using the advertisment angle falls on dead ground..."

Really? Compare the two:

An acceptable post from PoserWorld.

A commercial post from PoserWorld.

I can clearly see the difference.

-Jeff

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.. I dislike having to go look at the showcase forum. I really liked seeing what was coming up right there in the poser forum. Besides which, you didn't catch the multitude of WIPs that at least one posted in there (the poser forum) that really you could have swept under a rug somewhere. Instead of messing with all of us in our favorite spots, you could do a bit to help the marketplace be a bit more friendly to customers. Like a decent search engine and more categories so that we don't have to wade through a multitude of stuff we aren't interested in. I for one, don't want to be there all day. You keep on pushing vendors away like this, you will end up with no-one in the MP anyhows. Also, I have seen at least a half dozen mods leave in just a few months and they all seem to be shaking their heads and wiping their brows as they go out the door. I think you need to direct some attention to what is making this happen as well. I think it about time you (the Renderosity Admins) sit back and think about where these policies are taking us. Before the masses leave and stick you with just yourselves to look at.

"more categories"

What would you suggest?

-JH.

The only difference I see there is that one points to the free area and one to the subscription area. I only half heartedly agree with this catagorization. Once again I bring up the fact that if there is something behind a subscription site that someone asks about I am no longer going to be able to tell them where it is because they will have to pay to get it. This comes down to simply saying "If it isn't free we don't want it posted here in the common forums. Unless of course it is one of our approved sites." The approved sites being UVMApper, Soft-rabbit and Daz currently. This is extremly strange on how this choice was made. Is it only the big guys? No, UVMapper isn't a big player. Is it only the little guys? No, Daz is a very large company. Is it just those that won't compete in products? No, Daz offers products that would compete with anything here. Is it only those sites that someone has some form of tie to or doesn't want to piss off? This is the only one I can't say no to. PWFW falls inside the allowable sites based off of that list with the exception of the last question. So I want to ask, who made this list of allowable sites and what were the criteria?

JeffH, As for other catagories, this is being discussed in the Merchants forum at http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12389&Form.ShowMessage=673331 It started out as a complaint on an issue I was actually in a misunderstanding over. It has since become a recomendation area and small brainstorming session with clint involved on a new suggestion for the store layout. It is far from perfect, but that's what brainstorming is for. In the end it will only be a suggestion with no idea if the ideas we come up with are really even possible.

*""more categories"

What would you suggest?

-JH."*

What is wrong with a commercial post about a Poser product in the Poser forum? Who's really complaining? Whoever they are they really should speak up and explain why this is such a pain for them.

I don't always have the time to visit the product showcase forums or galleries. There are a number of forums here and I suspect I'm not the only one that merchants - Renderosity Merchants - are missing. The store isn't set up very well either to catch items I might be interested in. In 3D Accessories there are 310 pages of what's new and no helpful categories. If I want to find a texture I'd like to be able to look in "textures". If I'm reading the Poser forum, I'd like to see Poser products as well as the free stuff, and WIP's.

What really is the complaint about products in the poser forum? Competition? Jealousy? Over saturation? Request that merchants limit products to 2 or 3 per member per week and suggest to all merchants that they rise above competition and they are not the only one's out there with a product.

Seems to me that Renderosity is making problems where there shouldn't be any.

...... Kendra

"who made this list of allowable sites"

There is no list of allowable sites, just no DIRECT links to "e-commerce or subscription pages".

"How do you make everyone happy in asituation like this? All the people- the ones who want to post helpful links, the ones who want to just learn, the merchants- everyone? If someone suddenly told you "okay, it's your call" what would you do?" A fair and intelligent question from Micheleh, so I'll start from there: I'd let people go back to posting ads in the Poser Forum, on the grounds that they activate an "Advertisement" flag, just like the "Nudity" and "Violence" flags already in place. That way anyone who doesn't want to see ads can clearly tell which threads to avoid, and yet anyone who may interested can see them. Any attempt to simply remove mention of commercial products from the regular forum was doomed from the start, especially when it involves Poser, which, to be frank, is pretty much worthless without third-party add-ons. And sticking merchants in some forum ghetto is a mistake that will damage Renderosity far more than all of their competitors combined could ever hope to. An "Advertisement" flag should satisy both sides, and it shouldn't be too hard to put in place. As for the Product Showcase forum, it should be just that: a showcase, a place for people to post a more extended look at their products, as opposed to a merchant concentration camp. Also, it should still be handy for people who are planning to do some shopping and want to take a peak at the newest stuff. If I were a vendor, I'd definitely post an in-depth look at my newest products in the Product Showcase forum. I think it would be a mistake for vendors NOT to post there. But at the same time, I'd want to drop a notice in the Poser Forum for the folks (like me) who don't go to the PS forum but may still whip out the credit card if they stumble across something unusually interesting. So what do you think? One thing I must add (no pun intended), though: the people complaining about ads in the Poser Forum would do well to remember that our vendors are not coincidentally some of our most knowledgeble members, and if their ads do clutter up the forum at times, the knowledge they share with us in answering our questions and even creating tutorials more than makes up for any inconvenience you may feel their ads pose. Renderosity is a valuable resource, but it's in these people that that value lies.

Sounds like a cool idea X2000. Workable too. Violence and Nudity are already in place, what's another tag? Vendors get to post the "heads up" that drums up business without flooding the place with adverts and wips and lookee here posts. I like it, which probably means it's doomed to failure. Anything I like usually falls at the first fence. :(

I beg to differ based off of the following quote: "Posting a link to www.uvmapper.com or www.daz3d.com is fine and so is www.soft-rabbit.com, but no direct links to e-commerce or subscription pages." Isn't Daz an e-commerce site? I know soft-rabbit is totally free with nothing sold there, so that fits. uvmapper.com is starting to grey this line. Does he not sell the pro version from his site? So based off of the inclusion of DAZ being allowed how can you say that there is no allowable list when one was given here? Granted I only see one item in that list that goes against the e-commerce rule fully. With this I have to ask again who made this list of allowable sites and by what criteria? I can understand soft-rabbit, uvmapper is a little grey but I can accept it, but Daz is a full e-commerce site. Maybe one item doesn't make a list, and with that you would be correct when you say there is no list. But that would lead to another question as to why one e-commerce site but not another? You see, I'm just asking for an explaination of the criteria and everytime I ask this I never get an answer.

Okay now I see your confusion, you don't differentiate between a "Page" and a "Site" - there is a difference.

Hope that clears it up.

My question is only just one.. and personally addressed to JeffH! You took the time to reply so many times here .. don't I deserve that email reply since the message was sent at YOUR IM request? Or is my reply hitting too much on the nail head and "administration" or that clown who composed the alteration haven't come up yet with the appropriate excuse to it? Just wondering AND waiting.. Rena

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Maybe I should say a bit more.. :-)

A "Site" has "Pages" and while it's true a site can consist of only one page, if that one page happens to be for purchasing then it's not acceptable.

Hi Rena,

I'll get to your personal e-mail as soon as I can.

-Jeff

*"Okay now I see your confusion, you don't differentiate between a "Page" and a "Site" - there is a difference.

Hope that clears it up."*

*"Maybe I should say a bit more.. :-)

A "Site" has "Pages" and while it's true a site can consist of only one page, if that one page happens to be for purchasing then it's not acceptable."*

Clear as mud. So is R'osity getting rid of it's "Webring Top 15" and links to Daz and Curious Labs? It's hypocritical to ban some yet allow others.
Still doesn't answer the very valid question of "why?".
Is it competition Renderosity doesn't want? Because Renderosity is just a compilation.

...... Kendra

So you allow me to just post once a week to announce my freebie... how generous of all of you!!!! I bow to your courtesy! How generous of you! And I'm particularly glad that you chose the last update post as the "commercial" tagged one.. it IS what brought all this up, right? Too much is just more than you can take... Jesus.. you act and react like children! You can be read like an open book.. and it's so sad as you're supposed to be grown ups and responsible people! :o( Avoiding the subject you know.. the questions and issues set by all of us doesn't help much! It just shows clearly to everybody else how swiftly you avoid to reply to the "real" problem and the questions being asked! I guess I'll have to keep on asking till I do get them.. so: 1. WHO is the one who decided suddenly the TOS update? 2. How many subs sites are bugging you in the Poser Forum that they were considered they had to be tossed out? 3. How long is the list of complains for subs sites announcements? Finally..a suggestion.. make a subscription sites forum if you want to shovel us some place... but DON"T mix sub sites like katharina's and poserstyle with the wolves.. as we are niether lambs but not wild cats either to survive in there! Rena Rena

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Ok I am a bit confused here but I am wondering. Ok often Rena or Steve posts "previews" under the poser forum? Is that allowed? I actually found out about poserworld via the poser forum and I love it! Also what if I as a person not assoociated with poserworld wanted to say a particular item is kewl and I wanted to say where I got the stuff for those intrested? I just wondering what has changed? I mean I have seen for months PWFW's updates and I am sure it has been much longer. It can't be the first time a moderator has noticed PWFW posts. Also is it ok to post addons to pay items? Would that be considered an ad in freestuff?

just something i've noticed here thats got me more baffled about the whole thing, if i go to the poser forum the first thing that loads is the top bar with the date and time online etc on it, the second thing that loads is A banner advert!.......Steve

Keep your flock of merchants together... but don't mix us up with the store stuff as we don't belong and have nothing to do there as subscription sites! Was that so much of a bright idea to come up with and keep everybody happy and no complains around the block of where to find something or where to post something???? Rena

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Thanks for deleting my post JeffH, yes in a way I was playing a game, though probably not the one you think. However, you didn't answer the questions made in that post. I would appreciate an answer to those questions as they might clear some of the confusion.

Now I do know that I don't see things... I saw that post of yours Questor but didn't notice it was deleted... Jeff.. don't let this get out of hand..Please! I BEG you not to play dirty! It helps NONE!

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Rena, Jeff was not playing dirty just doing what he is supposed to do under tos guidelines. In my examples I posted a direct link to a commercial area, that is not allowed. Call it an experiment if you will. Jeff thought I was being a smart arse but followed TOS and deleted the post because of that link. Nothing dirty happening, but he didn't answer the questions in my post.

"... Links to DAZ, RuntimeDNA and other places that sell items ONE by one & heavy commercial ARE allowed!!! At least those charge an item of what it would sell to the store too.. they don't offer bargains! That's what's pissed me off!" Rena, I am not posting this to start trouble but to simply clarify that Runtime DNA posts a host of bargains in their freebie section weekly. Neither are we allowed to post any commercial stuff in the Poser Forum, we post in the Showcase Forum and gallery. There are two of us working in a dining room, and working very hard to bring good quality poser products. Thanks, Syyd

I had hoped to clear things up with all of this so I'll try one more time.

This is an example only, not a specific quote from any sort of list or policy:

"www.daz3d.com" as an example would be fine, but a link to their store or inside their store to a specific product would not be.

-Jeff

So, basically, if I click on a link in the forum, and run smack into a notice saying "you can't look at this page unless you're a member", that's verboten. (Also aggrivating!) ;]

Having one product (donation) in the Marketplace, and a few on a subs site, I thought I'd chime in. Thanx to Rena for bringing the subject to our attention. Personally, I think allowing "infomercials" on the standard Forums is vital to the community, and to R'osity as a site. Trying to divert "ad posts" to another Forum is a waste of time for members and admins alike. We all want all the Poser info we can get - that's why we COME here, folks - and we all learn to recognize the names of pure propagandists real quick. If you consider that o Poser is a commercial product (showcasing DAZ P4 models, too) o A LOT of the Poser stuff we all want to know about (and discuss in the Forums) is commercial (From Curious and DAZ to the humblest subs site) o Many, many "ad posts" turn into an idea and wish list for improvements and new products as members begin to reply - to the benefit of all of us o ANY Poser product (whether from the MarketPlace or elsewhere) that makes a Poser user happy makes said Poser user continue Poser-ing - which most likely includes frequent visits to R'osity. ... trying to remove all commercial-oriented info seems a waste time, information, creativity and energy. So please reconsider - we can all tell hype from info. The only time I ever made a commercial post (plugging the donation item), I titled it "Shameless Plug...", and noone seemed offended by it ;o)

www.daz3d.com" as an example would be fine, but a link to their store or inside their store to a specific product would not be Thank you Jeff. Essentially then to focus this to this particular case a link to www.poserworld.com or www.poserworld.com/free/ is acceptable, but a link to their subscription login page is not. Or a link to www./item/itempage.htm is unacceptable, but linking to the home page is acceptable. One final question as I understand the rest now. I think. What if the home page "is" the commercial page? This is extremely rare admittedly but I know at least two names of vendors who have a store on their front page. I assume that would come under the commercial link policy but also makes pointing anyone there kinda difficult. Though I suppose direct linking could be taken to IM instead of in the forum. Is IM disallowed?

heyas; one thing: you can't say a subscription site is non commercial. poserworld went to subscription format to support bandwidth costs alone. that's only one example. what's that site/group you can subscribe to for like $500 a year and get all the models? (is it the de espona site?) that's a subscription, and that is NOT non-profit. if you need to pay to get the models (pay the model price, pay a subscription price, pay a membership fee), then i agree with the definition 'commercial site.' maybe it should read 'for pay' site, if that is more clear. i think (i COULD be wrong) you are all over-reacting to the no-commercial linking in the poser forum rule. or else the rule is over-stated. heck, in poserforum, you ARE allowed to direct a member to a commercial site (with full link), if the product/site answers their question or need. (unless of course, the link is to renderosity, but we won't get into THAT.) so, charging in and starting a topic like BUY MY STUFF: bad. answering something like 'where can i get a ____' with your commercial site (or anybody else's): okay. if that interpretation is wrong, then something's a little screwy with the tos. as to why the 'advertising' stuff was moved to a separate forum; i believe the main reason was the volume of posts being generated on the poser forum. yes, it might be helpful for newbies to learn who's selling what, but the volume of posts was rather burying the 'help me make poser work' newbie questions. i don't like being shoved into the showcase forum, either, but i have to admit the avalanche in the poser forum section was getting to be too much. the advertising tag idea might work. but people would still have to scroll through the pages of advertising messages, trying to find their non-ad help. so i dunno.

Well Bloodsong, the Poser Forum is a very busy one at any rate, ads or not. But if not just an advertisement flag, how about a filter, like the nudity filter in the gallery? That way anyone bothered by the ads wouldn't even have to see the threads at all. I don't know how much trouble it would be to set something like that up for the forum, but I think in the long run it would spare the admin far more headaches than it would cause them to create it, and certainly keep everyone happier than the current situation ever will. What do you think, folks? Is this feasible/desirable/under consideration?

BUY MY STUFF: bad. answering something like 'where can i get a ____' with your commercial site (or anybody else's): okay From what I can understand from the very slim posts from Jeff, this is fine provided you don't link to the product page itself, but only to a plain home page - and no cheating by putting products on it but a link to a store is ok from that page provided you can't actually get the item in question from that page. Or something like that. :) Same applies to vendors here. They can link to their market place home page, but not to the product page. Daffy isn't it?

But I don't see subscription sites as "commerical" because they (well, PoserWorld at any rate, and I'm sure others, too) don't "cash in" on the profits. Their subscription fees go to bandwidth, not to a tri-level home in the country with a Porsche in the driveway (or whatever). Commercial, in my opinion, is when someone's bank account gets larger from the money coming in. I don't think Steve and Rena are getting rich from the subscriptions fees. Just another two cents worth. Melanie

Well finally Jeff has answered my main question simply and plainly. This is what I have repeatedly asked for, tried to give examples of, etc. Now I hope that Rena gets hers answered as plainly. Jeff, finally I thank you for the clarification. I do have one suggestion though. If this is going to be a rule then it definatly does need to be in the TOS in some fashion. Might want to save this post to get an idea of wording.

OK Michelle.... I have a complaint :) I'd like the PWFW updates put back in the Poser Forum! Now, what can you do for me? Sassy <<< Who invites everyone else who thinks this is a valid complaint to join in :)

"Own the Day"

*Live*Laugh*Love*Dream*Believe*

DS user since the first alpha :)

Poser user through P5

Michelle, I know for a fact that RuntimeDNA (Syyd & Colm) do not have a tri-level home or drive a porsche. They are like a lot of us, a standard home, with a very old car in the driveway. In fact you should see mine...the rust and the bird droppings (no covered driveway) is the only thing holding the car together. If u do find the that site where the employees drive porsches...let me know :)

I will! I'll IM you from the Riviera. ;] Well, if I'm not totally off base, any site can put their site link in the Poser Forum, as long as it's a link to the main page, and it isn't in a blatant "Buy this now now!" ad. Is that right, Jeff?

Actually, Rena and Steve's threads are more like pictures and words like "This week's updates are ready for download" which doesn't constitute a "Buy this now" ad. So again, they should be allowed to post in the Poser Forum. :) Sassy

"Own the Day"

*Live*Laugh*Love*Dream*Believe*

DS user since the first alpha :)

Poser user through P5

I hope this is my LAST post in this thread. My questions have been asked from all the sources I've been in conduct with as well as from this page.. so here are the answers : 1. WHO is the one who decided suddenly the TOS update? Jeff himself as he has admitted privately. Why? He couldn't take up the heat of the merchants anylonger.. Steve & Rena are not important - as was put - but merchants ARE! (that he didn't admit himself but I've managed to find out from a very reliable source) 2. How many subs sites are bugging you in the Poser Forum that they were considered they had to be tossed out? Very few.. but the merchants were the ones who pushed for those to be sent away because we're still competition that kills their sales the way they see it and because they've persuaded Jeff that he shows favoritism by allowing us to post in the forum where THEY can't! 3. How long is the list of complains for subs sites announcements? Long enough..but mostly by merchants who hate our gutts.. Jealousy has been one of the biggest sins and the strongest motives.. I'm not surprised! So here we have at last the final picture! Jeff is not to blame neither a coward, he just got badly cornered and pushed beyond his limits.. nobody can stand up so much extra heat, especially on the lousy moderator compensation fee.. so I don't hold the slightest grudge against him, on the contrary, I sympathize with him for having to deal with green eyed monsters like that.. I'd never wish to be in his shoes! The merchants have got what they want and I'm not surprised as those are the ones that fill in the cashbook! They've managed to excile the enemy in a place that dramatically fewer will have a chance to see her posts and know what's also available or has been created.. that was their original intention, they got it granted! Their ultimate wish "I disappear" almost has been granted as an extra gift by me! As I don't intend to post PWFW previews but only updates in the Merchants Forum from now on as it's obvious that Michelle, Jeff or whoever else don't pay attention to my own request for an extra forum just for 3d party sites that have nothing to do with the store.. and I'm not surprised as we are not important to them so why would they listen? After all we represent only 500 members of Renderosity so far... too much a minority to bother with from the endless members of this site! I'm just wondering how many merchants can say in this place that they have 500 individual customers themselves.., just a side thought, so don't pay attention to that trivial part! For your info, yeah, I've become so rich from PWFW that I still keep my full time job that consumes my time from 9 to 5 while at the same tim I'm suffering from a carpal wrist syndrome caused by the endless hours of the mouse usage! The doctor suggested to give up typing and as much as possible my PC activity to avoid surgery.. Yet I ignore his orders.. You see how greedy I am too? VL grin If I was getting rich I would go for Bondaware software as well instead of having to edit our pages one by one which is hell for my wrists... but I guess I'm too stingy, right? VL grin This thread and issue has also helped me to find out who I can trust around here and who are snakes I'm sheltering at my own chest. What I mean? I've got inside info of WHO is the merchant that's made the biggest fuss and put the hottest heat on Jeff to have my posts removed... and it just so happens that he/she is one I've offered graciously a free lifetime membership to PWFW as a token of friendship! Feeling twice a fool I guess.. but that's how people are.. I try to come to terms with that even at this late age! BUT.. taking all the advice and info provided from this thread (which for your info I'm also saving as proof for future reference and guidelines of what's allowed and what not)I WILL post my previews in the Poser Fourm as I've always done! NO.. I'm not rebelling! I'll just abide by your rules and let's see if you have any of those posts moved out and on what grounds... where there's a will, there's a way as my late dad so wisely used to say! What I mean? You'll find out soon! :o) Final conclusion of mine : Jack Krammer had done Poser and Renderosity and this community.. the biggest harm than anyone else..I think by now most of you agree! At least old timers who know exactly what I'm talking about! Rena (going back at last to her spring cleaning and weekend chores, as she's so darn rich from her "commercial" site that she can't afford a maid despite her wrists condition)

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

PS: Just an updated correction to the above statement.. as getting out of here I've found this in my inbox! From: "Allen Harkleroad" To: "steve shanks" , Date: 04/27/02 01:43:17 Subject: 1001 subscribers as of 4/27/2002 @ 1:42 am!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well we broke 1000 subscribers tonight. ;-) Allen Yes.. we are not a tiny bit important.. we just speak for ourselves....

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Our posts are totally indifferent to the majority of the poser forum visitors.. VL grin

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

"any site can put their site link in the Poser Forum, as long as it's a link to the main page, and it isn't in a blatant "Buy this now now!" ad. " As a point of information, no it isn't. That's a matter of public record in Comm Ideas forum [and probably poser forum still unless the post was deleted]: AprilYSH was told that she couldn't post links to her download page for her free items in our freestuff or in forum because they linked to a competeing site - 3DArena. And at the time, that was an unlisted "policy" found posted nowheres on this site. Don't take my assertion - look it up.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

What a sad thread... R'osity is going downhill and fast, no wonder people are looking for a new "home". Rena, I am proud to be one of those 1000 subscribers and I love seeing all the update posts. Keep your chin up! :)

OK Rena...let's take it a step further (Freedom of Information Act here in the US g) WHICH merchants? a list will be sufficient, doesn't need to be in alphabetical order I want to know because I will not buy from them again. And seeing as it's my money we're talking about here, I think, legally, the information can not be withheld

Ironbear, care to link us to that thread? This is a line I think needs to be taken there rather then here.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=466652

Here's one of them, main one. Couldn't find the others in a brief search. And my memory may be playing me false - instead of Poser forum, they may have been in C&D where they can't be accessed any longer. Seems like it broke out in Poser Forum though just prior to the time frame of this thread.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

Rena, Please be careful in making generalizations. I am a merchant here and a subscriber at PWFW and I have NEVER complained about PWFW announcements in the Poser forum. I'm not amerchant to make lots of money - more because I could not afford the bandwidth to gvie anyway certain things so rather than not make them available at all - I've put them in the MP. What money I make goes to paying for bandwidth so that I can host some freestuff , subscriptions to sites like PWFW and buying stuff from other people. I too work a fulltime day job and also help take care of my aging parents and my 2 year old nephew. I like seeing announcements from PWFW and other places and I also like seeing merchant announcements. Both are interesting and informative and provide me with information I want. I think it is silly to try to restrict all posts having to do with any monetary transations to a specific forum. Announcements about Poser products belong in the poser forum. IF people object to seeing them they, having a radio button to label them as adverts is a much better solution than quarantining them off where only the experienced people know where to look for them. Daio

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

Daio.. you forget something.. I am a recent merchant at the store myself as well! :o) Not for profit of course, just to save my poor credit card as well as steve's from getting overloaded over our addictive hobby! :o) No.. I think it's clear that this generalization is not addressed to all merchants.. just a very few who have seen the whole situation completeley differently from the majority of the rest of us! To them, winning at all and competition is what makes them thrive, no matter how, no matter at what cost.. we have a greek saying about these kind of people.. those who walk on dead bodies to achieve their goals! So I"m just talking about them only and nobody else.. No.. I won't share that specific person's name with anybody.. it's between the person who has trusted the info to me and myself.. it will never go further as I've promised and I DO keep my promises! It was a suspicion of mine judging from other coincedences, I'm just glad that person put his head in the sack to reveal that it IS so, despite how dangerous it was for him! So no.. I won't betray his unexpected trust by saying WHO in public.. it's good enough that I know for myself and I can do my best for self protection from now on. Competition is not everything.. I never believed in that ..I never will! It's the fun of Poser.. it's the fun of creativity, it's the good enthusiastic feeling that makes your day once you achieve the effect you were after and just wish to share with the rest around who will understand and know what you mean! It's also being in love with hard work and never believing what you've done is enough.. so you go on exploring further! THIS is what poser has been to me up to this day.. this is what it'll be till the day I'll have to quit..hopefully when I'm dead! VL grin So please don't all of you who happen to be merchants get offended, as I do know people are not all the same! There have been lots I've bought from and never regretted, and even more who've turned to be nice, generous people and friends of mine.. but unfortunately there are also a few who are not what they seem to be.. it's just sad to realize they can influence the way this place is run sooo much... Politics and Power.. the next couple of worse plagues after commercialism.. and they have all found shelter in Renderosity.. pretty chilly a thought..hum? VL grin Rena

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Well, that's the thing Rena... I could do business cutthroat, and well. I had the training... in advertising where "thanking all the little people you climbed over on the way to the top" is the way of things. I'd prefer to never deal that way though. Isn't worth it.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

Ironbear.. one thing I've learnt good in my whole life is this.. be always yourself and never pretend of being something else! If you just do that..you're always safe and in great terms with your own self first of all! :o) You're so darn right, it's NOT worth it any other way! But takes some character to realize that I'm afraid! VL grin

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Bravo, Daio! I totally agree. I also think the radio button is the solution to fix this situation. If people don't like nudity and violence, they have a tag to watch for. If they don't like ads for new items, they would know what to avoid, although I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to see what new items we can look forward to. Isn't that what the whole concept of this forum is for in the first place? To give information? What's the next thing they'll ban from the Poser Forum, explanations on how to fix Vicki's eyebrows because teaching is a profession and we can't have that! I also notice that a majority of the folks posting here in this thread are on PWFW's side. I have to say that I find it difficult to understand why the admins and mods have sided with a single complaint to make a decision. Shouldn't they go with the majority? Why are they letting one or two merchants bully them into creating a policy that offends the rest of us. I never visit the Showcase forum, because I never remember it's there, so I'd never hear of any of the updates, other than the e-mails that Steve and Rena send out to the members. I'd never get to see what the new items look like until they're actually posted on their site. I love the previews and I really want to continue seeing them here in the Poser forum, where they belong. This place is getting flooded with too many little forums for too many individual topics. I think maybe it's finally getting too big for its own good. Rena and Steve, keep up the great work. You two are among the best. Melanie

snicker That's the problem kiddo... wouldn't be pretending. I can be a ruthless SOB with no problems except that I enjoy it too much. It's the enjoying it too much that scares me - that's why I avoid it. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

I have been a member of Renderosity for quite sometime. I also belong to PWFW. I don't post messages because I am a little shy and I suppose kinda backward. I hate that one of my first posts is because of the situation we find ourselves in at the time. I have to back Rena and Steve though in this cause. I enjoy the update anouncments and seeing what is being worked on at PWFW. If my opinion means anything, I can't understand the problem with PWFW posts. Most people that belong to PWFW as far as I know, also buy from renderosity MP. I know I do. They are not hurting any other sales that I can see. People are going to buy what they want regardless. From the time I have been reading the forum, I thought we we're all one in our poser interest and was suppose to help each other. I don't understand how alienating good and honest members is in any way helping each other. I also can't understand how one vender can overrule the majority. I am behind Rena and Steve on this one all the way. Thanks Rena and Steve for all you have done for the people that love poser.

Melanie, in case you hadn't noticed your not allowed to discuss Poser gallery images in the Poser forum either. I don't entirely understand that but what the hey, it's easy enough to take the discussion to another site that does allow some freedom and there's enough choices out there now to suit almost anyone's taste in forum. Unfortunately we can't post links to them as they're almost all commercially oriented, but they're easy to find. I can in a way understand the restriction of posts regarding the market place in Poser Forum because some people don't understand "reasonable behaviour", so flood the place with multiple threads on the same topic rather than revisiting one they started earlier. But, enough noise was made that the vendors were segregated. In a way it's not that bad, if they're allowed to post a link into Poser forum to their product display in the vendor gallery when someone asks for something they can take a good look at the renders in there, and I suppose find a link to the store front. This helps a bit so the Poser chat doesn't get buried. I really fail to understand though why vendors can't announce products in Poser forum. after all, that's where their customer base lives. To ban other sites and linking is patently ridiculous. That's centrism gone insane. If a site cannot link to it's own pages, then there's no reason to maintain a favour link back to here. It's that kind of attitude that kills sites. This might be currently the largest forum site available for 3d users but it's not the only one. How long can it really survive by isolation, segregation and centrism? Good examples of this kind of thing and the damage they do is the Paramount witch hunt of Star Trek fan sites that did untold damage to them and the inane legislation enforced by TSR that prevented AD&D fans from creating sites, so well designed that TSR themselves couldn't have one until recently. Do people not learn from this kind of silliness? New users search the net for Poser and poser related stuff. It won't be long before Renderosity no longer appears at the top of the list and marketing only works to a certain level before the benefits no longer apply. Upsetting large numbers of people is counter-productive. OK, so new members are signing up every day. Big deal, so too are they signing up elsewhere. Not because any one site is better than another but to get information and freebies from multiple sources. It's that healthy form of greed that makes life fun rather than the bitter sour tasting spite of a certain few who want to own everything and control everything. Whatever the long term outcome of this particular fiasco is going to be remains to be seen but I doubt it's the end of the argument even if Rena does have her answers and a way of operating inside TOS. Thing is, the more the PTB step on the user base to create their Disney paradise, the more harm they're doing to themselves. Unfortunately there's too many pc guardianistas around now and they want total control, their way, regardless. A lot of good people have been lost to this community over the years from a variety of bullshit. It's a shame that lessons seem to be very hard to learn and memories are short when a little bit of power is up for grabs. How many more have to be alienated and/or driven away before someone actually learns something? In fairness the renderosity site does not belong to the public. It is a private business concern and the owners may run it into the ground and oblivion anyway they wish. Just so long as they remember that without people, without the experience of some of the site members there is nothing except a fancy set of pages, some fancy code and a waste of space. I only hope that the other forums out there watch this site carefully and learn from it's sometimes glaring errors of judgement and do not repeat these mistakes, or other mistakes of the past that are so rapidly arriving here. Not of course that my thoughts matter a damn, I'm just one person, one piece of noise who really isn't very active around here anymore. Can't imagine why.

My first preview in full competence to the new rules has been posted guys.. in the POSER FORUM! :o) Let's see now if it stays there .. and just in case it gets moved, I want same as you.. detailed explanations on WHAT grounds.. so we can get back here! LOL Hope not to see you soon! VL grin

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

"Do people not learn from this kind of silliness?" Generally not. Never overestimate the human ability to do the same thing over and over expecting different results - this time. But at least this can serve a useful function to someone - as a bad example. ************ "They got a message from the Action Man "I'm happy, hope you're happy too"

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

"obvious that Michelle, Jeff or whoever else don't pay attention to my own request for an extra forum just for 3d party sites that have nothing to do with the store.." Hold up, that's the first time I've heard that mentioned. It's not a bad idea, either. If that's what people want, why not? What exactly would you want it to achieve? Be sort of a neutral area between ads and techie posts? "I also think the radio button is the solution to fix this situation..." That's not bad, either. What would be involved, I wonder? Lemme look into that one.

Radio button would be the BEST solution I guess .. that was a genious idea by Daio! The 3rd party subscription forum would be the less acceptable alternative I guess just for subscription sites and other commercial ones that want to post their previews and links freely but not mixed up with the store stuff as the items do no belong there... A team spirit and graceful solution to keep all happy (either of the above) would be more than welcome by anybody I guess.. if we favor the radio button so much it's simply because it allows all posts to be under the same resource which we were all used to before all the splitting up of various forums.. and.. thanks for listening and even more for start considering seriously! :o) Rena

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

"Radio button would be the BEST solution I guess .. that was a genious idea by Daio!: You're right, and that was a brilliant idea... thanks, Daio! Now to see what needs to be done...

Erm, not to steal Daoi's thunder but it was originally an idea by X2000 and Daio mirrored an enthusiasm for this idea. You'll find it about half way up with a couple other good ideas mentioned by X2. Posts 54 amd 75 if you want to check. Again, I'm not being funny towards Daio who has my deepest respect, but it's nice to see credit going the right direction when it's shared. :)

Ah! X2000- brilliant! Daio- hey, great minds think alike!

X2000 my deepest apologies! :o) It was hard to keep track of this mess up to 106 posts so far.. to be honest, after all this response I'm glad it was shoveled under the rug into THIS forum..it would be too much to handle by anybody in any other case! I NEVER thought I'd say that! VL grin Rena

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Hmm. Didn't quite hear me, eh? I guess I'm getting too subtle in my old age. By God, it used to be that when I said something, people HEARD! OK, they may have flamed me into a black, crumbly mess, but they heard me, damn it. I must be losing my touch. Guess I need to practice more... cue ominous music

Radio button or new forum. Definatly voting for the radio button, but if we have to go forum at least we are still here. If both get turned down I suggest just building a huge wall around this place with razor wire and watch towers. Guards armed to the teeth ready to shot anyone trying to get out will be an effective way to attain the apparent goals of what we are starting to see here.

Rena,

Your interpretation of my private e-mail is very different than what I had to say. I'm not sure why you posted about it here.

Guess it doesn't really matter, I don't mind taking the "blame" for anything.

The owners of this site asked the Moderators to move commercial posts to the showcase areas and that's what will be done.

That's really the only issue here. This is not an effort to squash "competition" and it isn't personal.

Everyone,

The Product Showcase is a place you can go all out with commercial promotions and not have to worry about complaints from those that are here only to learn.

When the store opened here, people said it was the end of the community and commercialism was swallowing up the forums. Hopefully this policy will change that.

Wether a commercial site makes a profit or not isn't a factor in this. We play no favorites.

The Showcase forum gets alot of hits/views, so if you have something to promote and it's what the people want, you'll get results by posting there.

Have a good weekend everyone, and please get away from your computers for a few days :-)

-Jeff

My interpetations Jeff had nothing to do with your email.. all I've used from that is the fact that you said ..I wrote that TOS line.. not a word more or less! Why you did that and what you went through was revealed to me by others who also were close and sympathize with you same as I do! So please read my post with the questions answered once again.. I NEVER said that all that was revealed to me by you but from reliable inside sources! Yes, I have my ends as well.. people who do trust me after all these years I've never bothered or hurt anyone, and do care about me! :o) It was also misinterpeted by the rest of posts by others that only one specific merchant did all the pushing.. wrong! They were more, just one more persistant and not to you but ClintH mostly! You were the one who had to execute orders when things went out of hand! As you see I do know more and I had in mind not to say a word further if you hadn't thought that I imply YOU were the one which is totally wrong! :o) Best thing I guess at this moment is to forget it all and put it behind (I'm good at that myself) and see how things go from now on so less of similar situations ever arouse again in this place! Despite the fact of feeling hurt the last few days of the indifferent way I've been treated in this place after all I've done for its existance, despite the fact I'm no big or important fish to any of you.. I still care about it as it is "home" since the people I love and care about still hang around it! So let's be taught a lesson both and move on... Rena

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Can we have a notation of what IS acceptable in the Poser Forum? Are threads asking people to go look at a thread in the Showcase Forum acceptable? Are previews of future items acceptable? What? I'm cerrtain my answers are up there somewhere... but they're BURIED in the hundreds of other posts. Perhaps a FAQ or other guidelines for us?

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=589469

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=589469

Rena Well Denmark is just a very little contry and I'm just one person of 5 mill. people but for what this might be worth. I don't understand what is happening here at Renderosity. It took me a long time to save the money to get a subcription, but in the mean time - I had the great luck to get " free PWFW figure and cloth" announced here beside the updates for PW's subscriptions sites. When I got around to the subscription I was allowed to look at free pages to see what I would get for my money if I joined and even 1/3 of it would had fullfilled my dream to what I considered a bargain prize. Next to that I got support and help whenever its needed in the most understanding way. You and Steve do everything in your power to support and helped out your subscribers and none subcribers if we ask for help and special needs. You listen to peoples wishes and are amongst the most decent people that I ever meet in the Poser University. I don't usally go in to the forums but I honestly believe that one of the reason this kind of things is happening is your NON "Merchant" way of acting and treat people. For some it hurt a lot to see other been able to succeed what they cant do themselves. For the reason of all us who is overwhelmed by our membership of PW and all of us who weekly gets beautiful free stuff from PWFW. Please continue to make this community a better place Krystalmoon

Oops, I had no intention of stealling X2000's thunder. I was just repeating his suggestion but my wording did not make that very clear. All the credit goes to X2000 for that great idea.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

Eh, don't worry about it Daio, there's plenty more thunder where that came from. But try stealing my DOUGHNUTS and you'll be in BIIIIIG trouble...;)

Does it matter at all what =we= want??? Who gives a rat's behind if some people feel offended by the imagined threat of PWFW! It seems clear that the majority of us wants these announcements, and right wh ere they always were. In the Forum. But hey, I forgot, if it doesn't make BIG bucks for this place, can it! And silence those who protest while you are at it. They don't need us, folks, can't you see that? So let's just leave them alone and all these decision-makers can talk to themselves happily ever after... This is not a nice place anymore. Yes, I am in a stinky mood right now, it seems every time I turn around, more friends have left the building! Destiny, Syyd, Rena, so many more.

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

Guys...relax! :o) As I said, where there's a will..there is a way if you give it a second thought! My latest preview IS up in the Poser Forum as always, right? :o) Well.. formatted differently than usual - I agree, but still at the place where all of you used to read and find out about them! VL grin I think Micheleh is seriously considering the "commercial" radio button.. that would solve dozens of problems for all and help all poser stuff stay gathered up! So let's calm down and wait for a while to see how this go.. I'm always willing to give somebody the benefit of the doubt and some time to sort things out once the problem has been explored so extensively as in this thread.. so fingers crossed! :o) About leaving.. that so many of you suggested in IM and private emails, NO.. desertion is not the solution to me! Even though there are lots of other places to post with no problem as so many of you suggested... I've been taught by my dad how to fight for what I stand for instead of being a coward, shrink my shoulders and walk away!This case wouldn't be an exception! You leave only when you're 100% sure that NONE listens or cares.. doesn't seem to me as this being the case over here.. at least so far! :o) So let's hold our breaths for a while.. see how it goes and work all together with constructive suggestions like X2000's and Daio's to make this place exactly what we'd wish it to be.. because commercial or non commercial it's still one that can't exist without Poser users.. and I think they do know that, same as all the rest of us! :o) Rena

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

Spoken like a champ Rena. Glad to see you'll be sticking around. :) FWIW: I think you're right about not leaving. It's a helluva lot easier to walk away than it is to stick around and get your problems dealt with. It's also a lot less rewarding, and does nothing to improve the community. Just my .02. Paul *8^>

On a side note: Is this thread REALLY 120 posts long? Wowsers! *8^>

Yeah, long thread, but we hashed out a few things. Possibly came to an agreement and everything seems to have died down now. Sometimes the staff does things and doesn't explain themselves when asked to. As members it is our duty to keep asking. Sometimes the members go much to far. The staff then has the duty to either shut them up or appease them. In this case, I actually commend jeffh for not going ballistic and temp banning the few of us that were the most outspoken. He could have easily done so, but that would have been simply running away and would have compounded the problems. Instead he stuck it out, responded shortly at times, but allowed us to say our peace. In the end, I think we all understand each other a bit better.

Exactly. And I really think things will be better fo that. 8]

I'm confused by this, is it only if the link goes directly to a store or a subscription sign-up page? because I always post 3-D Arena contest news in various forums and am now unsure if that is allowed here (beginning to feel very unwelcome in this place that helped me to learn and grow ~sigh~) I never post a link to the store - but on the other hand several months ago you refused to allow those whose files I host to link to their freebies page from the free section and instead wanted them to direct link - which I don't allow. These links weren't to the store but to the freebies area and these contributors were unable to offer their files any other way. So colour me confused as it gets harder and harder to distinguish what is allowed here and what isn't. I don't want to go against the rules - nor am I going to comment on them - this isn't my site and it certainly isn't how I would handle things - but I will respect the rules until such time I find them intolerable and then I simply won't come back. No big deal - just need to know "exacty" what they are - because I'm sensing that it is no outside linking except to those webring sites or DAZ.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Well, if it's ok to link to freestuff items, then I don't see why it would be so wrong for you to link to freestuff at the Arena. I mean, it's not like it's a hotlink con to pop up porn banners, online casinos and a store. Freestuff is freestuff. It seems from the way Jeff repeated things that it's "no product pages" "no subscription login pages". Freestuff is ok, like Runtime DNA freestuff and Poserworld freestuff. So Arena freestuff, by that logic should also be ok. Heck people link to 3dc freestuff in the forums here sometimes because people like Maclean don't post here. Of course, I've been wrong before, so maybe I'm wrong again. Only the PTB knows the answer...

no it's not ok questor, they were linking to their "pages" that held their freestuff and were told to remove the linksor 'rosity would remove them. I'm just confused as to what is allowed here and what isn't anymore...

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

I understood the complaint was to remove commercial links not freestuff links. The reason I assume this is in Jeff's example above. Post 47 where the acceptable post from Poserworld was directly to the freestuff pages. Not the home page. But the unacceptable one had a link to the login page for subscribers and was "blatantly commercial" or something like that. So, if www.sitename.com/free/freestuff.asp is ok as Jeff has said, then there's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to post a link to www.LSMsite/freebies/index.php Same thing isn't it? A freebie area for people to download freebies. I can see the confusion LadyMage having read through the thread linked to by Ironbear, but Jeff has said that freestuff links are ok. Just not links to "product" pages. I don't recall seeing product or vendor sales on your freebie area, therefore it's allowed. smile Of course, the PTB will have to speak to confirm this as I am merely a noisy person with no life. G But that's how it reads above.

This is exactly why it is so confusing - because this did happen already and was brought up in the old C & D forum, by the artist who was told the link would be removed, when it happened. (ironbear has also linked the thread above that was not in C&D) At the time it was stated that linking to competitor's site for free items wasn't allowed. I don't mind - it's just that the rules never seem to be set in stone - they change constantly and everytime one gets used to them - they change again. As for "Wether a commercial site makes a profit or not isn't a factor in this. We play no favorites" I don't buy that either (but then I don't have to), I know of at least one case where one of our vendors was approached by 'rosity staff privately in regards to why that vendor chose to be a part of 3-D Arena. I have never seen the email in question - but I fully believe the vendor who told me. But the real point is the confusion this creates - So are links ok to sites with stores or subscriptions as long as they aren't to the mall? If so then has the rule regarding the linking to their own free stuff by artists I host changed as well? Or is no linking allowed to sites with sales so therefore I can't link contest news here? I have a feeling that if I posted large images of my newesst products available only at 3-D Arena (I have 3 coming out soon FYI) ind the showcase forum, that they would be pulled or disallowed in the future. As for "Wether a commercial site makes a profit or not isn't a factor in this. We play no favorites" I don't buy that either (but then I don't have to) because I know of at least one of our vendors who was approached by 'rosity staff in regards to why that vendor chose to sell at 3-D Arena after having left 'rosity's marketplace (didn't come to us immediately either). Specifically to insure that I didn't spend my time here trying to encourage vendors to leave 'rosity for us. The amazing thing is that I am ~always~ up front with vendors and will always tell them their sales with us won't equal the sales they could make here. People leave here and go elsewhere based solely on their own perceptions of this place. I have seen those who leave here or who hang out elsewhere referred to as sheep when in reality the sheep mentality is that which sees unfairness and an unequality and insists on following it anyhow, because to do otherwise involves a change habits and mentality that is too much trouble.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

I tend to agree with everything you say, but obviously from my own perspective and experience of people who have left this site. I figure sooner or later someone from the staff who's allowed to answer your questions will turn up and answer them. I'd be curious to see the answer if it differs from above and if not, then what the reasons are that you and your artists can't link from here. Direct links to freestuff is obviously not a requirement anymore because of the huge number of free sites that don't allow it and the large number of Angelfire, Geocities and other links in freestuff here. I don't entirely understand the competition ruling to be honest as most of the vendors here also market in other stores, it only makes sense to do so to get the greatest coverage. But commerce shouldn't be a "you can't do it" rule, that's kinda self defeating. Better to allow a little freedom and promote unity and co-operation than segregation and isolation. shrug It is confusing, yes. We can but wait for an answer, and make noise until someone realises the thred is still active, it should be interesting.

Good morning! (Yes, I sleep late) ;] Okay, let me see if I can adress things. Now, remember, policy is never set in stone, and can be changed if people express that there is a need to do so. We are never not "allowed" to speak of anything to anyone- we are trying to work out the best way to do this so everyone can have what they want with the least amount of inconvenience. So far, the popular vote here seems to indicate the feasiability of "flags" to mark sale and advert items, for two reasons- one, folks who don't like to see them can easily screen them, and two, people who post the adverts,links to sales, and so-on will not feel ostracised from their "home" area. Is this right? I am going to see where things stand now. I haven't checked yet, I wanted to say something here right away. I'll be back soon. 8]

That seems to be the popular vote Micheleh, yes, might even be popular with the vendors as they can then return to the place where their customers chat, work and play. :) If you could check on the questions by LSM as well please, as this has more reaching implications for other people who might follow her example in the future, such as the current mall and forum mentioned so subtly above by a certain lady (28) and others that might be in the planning or dream stages.

I think flags would be great too. So many of us are stuck on a dial-up (I would go to DSL in a second if it were available) so it often takes me quite a looooooong time to browse through forums and pick and choose topics. it would be much easier if they were all in one place with a flag to tell me what is what. But then again, if I see something over advertised I'm less likely to buy it.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

"If you could check on the questions by LSM as well please, as this has more reaching implications for other people who might follow her example in the future, such as the current mall and forum mentioned so subtly above by a certain lady..." Lemme look. Ah! Well, I do think the active membership is quite a bit higher than 5%, but that's neither here nor there. They have a nice site, as well, as do many others. I think if one thinks of the good of the artist, then it is a benefit for them to have as many sites to frequent as possiblle. LadySilverMage- a large number of complaints occured when people would click on a link which would lead to a page saying "this page is only available to members", who are them understandably irritable. ************************************************************ 1) So are links ok to sites with stores or subscriptions as long as they aren't to the mall? If so then has the rule regarding the linking to their own free stuff by artists I host changed as well? 2) Or is no linking allowed to sites with sales so therefore I can't link contest news here? 3) I have a feeling that if I posted large images of my newest products available only at 3-D Arena (I have 3 coming out soon FYI) ind the showcase forum, that they would be pulled or disallowed in the future? 4) I know of at least one case where one of our vendors was approached by 'rosity staff privately in regards to why that vendor chose to be a part of 3-D Arena? ************************************************************ These questions? I have a list. I go for answers. I shall return!

We are working on clearing this up right now, Please give us a few days to get it worked out.

You can't call it work if you love it... Zen Tambour

You know, it all would be so much easier if everyone just acknowledged that everything (TOS changes) being done is because of competition for buyers' money.

Tim, the owner/president/director of this site has already said so in one of his few posts.

To paraphrase:

We are a business and not ashamed to be making money.

All this pussy footing around creates needless confusion and hurt feelings.

If mods could acknowledge this and behave correspondingly and stop sending out mixed signals, and if members would also stop expecting this business to cater to non profit excercises as their highest priority, this would also create less headaches.

So once everyone knows where they stand, then they can behave correspondingly. :)

Much as the oldtimers pine for the good old days and us newbies wish we could have seen how it was, it's best to accept how things are now and do what it takes or go where we can to find our rightful place.

Goodluck Rena, hope the wrists feel better, feel free to contact me if you find any use for my offer. :)

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

Too bad April. New sites and alternatives aren't going to go away... they're going to continue to flourish and new ones are going to spring up. Cut-thrat competition between them is short sighted, and it's not going to help anyone's bottom line - especially if the end result is a loss of goodwill and customer [read: "member"] dissatisfaction. I like Renderosity, but this place isn't invulnerable to that. Hasn't been an island on the net in a long time. And in the long run, the "we make money, screw them" attitude will hurt everyone if members get tired of it and decide to blow off the 3D communities completely as a bunch of competition oriented combatants instead of a resource.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

segued to IB: Yes... Just cos rosity treats the other sites as competition doesn't mean the other sites feel the same about rosity. And those sites without that competition orientation maybe just the place for those who don't like living with it here. The growth of apathy among former loyalists is something rosity is willing to wear. As for those who haven't grown thick skinned enough to develop this apathy... remember, resistance is futile. ;)

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

April- Paraphrase, btw, means to put in your own words. It would be more fair to post a direct quote, you know.

Sure but C&D got deleted afaik. :) It was a reply to Poppi or LadySilverMage, I can't remember which. One of them was asking either who owns this place and/or what is the purpose of this place. Since I hardly ever see Tim post, the reply kinda stuck in my mind. It was quite simply put and the "paraphrasing" should be quite close down to the word count, no need for interpretation. If an admin could do a query on ForumID=12360 posts looking for "tim" and "not ashamed" it should turn up.

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

I'll check, thanks. (Did you have to do that to the background? I have my whole screen nice and black, and there that is- the Red Alert!) ;]

my fave colour on screen. i was being silly. last time i do that. looks embarassing now... hehe slinks away

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

"But I don't see subscription sites as "commerical" because they (well, PoserWorld at any rate, and I'm sure others, too) don't "cash in" on the profits. Their subscription fees go to bandwidth, not to a tri-level home in the country with a Porsche in the driveway..." OK. This post is so long, I've forgotten who originally posted this statement, but I have a question to bring up in that regard. Just exactly how do you determine who's "cashing in" on the profits and who's not? All the various subscription and non-subscription sites are not going to open their books to the public, so it's just a guess or what they themselves say. Now we can pretty well GUESS that rosity is taking in a good amount of money. And we can GUESS that they are probably making a fairly healthy profit. But we can't KNOW that. We don't KNOW what their operating costs are. There's more to running sites of this scope than bandwidth. I am a merchant here. I know what I make. I also run a website with a store that is built on a similar model to rosity. I can tell you, I don't live in a tri-level house. I don't own a Porsche. I'm not getting rich doing this. In fact, I'm just now getting to the point where I'm covering costs. But even if I were getting rich, is that anyone's business but mine? Why is it that the word commercial seems to be so hated? If it wasn't for commercialism, none of you would have Poser to play with. And while there are many very generous folks in this community who donate an incredible amount of their time to support it and even pay the bandwidth costs of sharing their stuff, some of us work full time at this to bring you these sites and we'd like to be able to survive and pay the people we need to help us do this. I'm not getting into whether or not rosity is right or wrong in doing what they are doing here with the product showcase forum and gallery or even whether or not PWFW should be exempt from the commercial posts rule. I just wanted to know how anyone thinks they could possibly accurately judge who's making a "profit" and who's not.

Geesh, hasn't the powers that be at Renderosity ever seen Miracle on 34th Street? The part where Macy's santa sent the people out to Gimbel's when they didn't have a product, only to have the people come back to Macy's in appreciation. Yes, it's a movie, but it's a sound business practice and in this type of a community, it's even more sound. Renderosity, we are artists. Those that buy from the marketplace are looking to create a certain artwork from those products. That means that such products have to match the vision. You don't have a product to match every vision. Neither does Daz, Poserworld, RuntimeDNA, etc, etc, etc. Together, however, you all create a very rich and diverse selection and while Renderosity may not get every sale, it's the goodwill that comes from a member who got what they wanted and learned it on Renderosity that will keep people coming back. Are you in that deep a financial hole that such good will costs you so much in the long run? I subscribe to Poserworld and I love to see the updates to their site and I support Steve and Rena on this fight. It's a really big sandbox and Renderosity needs to play nice if they are to keep the community and the loyalty that they depend on to bring in the people. There are very few web entities that can claim large communities based on a store. 'rosity has a very rare thing going here, one that they should respect, not destroy. After all, what good is the store if no one comes to the site. And as far as Daz getting away with it, even they have to offer some free stuff, and without ads from here, they'd probably be pretty quiet. My 2cents...

PS: I also buy a lot in the store, so where does that fit in to your calculation?

Rena qoute: "Let's face it, others may not dare say so but I will- it's the best & oldest who've survived successfully in becoming merchants around this place since Jack Krammer brought the plague of commercialism over us (also WITHOUT asking but with YOUR full blessings)!" Rena, First of all, it is Jack KAMMERER... and to inform you, I was NOT the first person to bring commercialism over to the Community. Zygote and BBAY.COM brought commercialized products to the Community LONG before I did. I only brought the Commercialism to Renderosity, and despite how frustrating that is to some, allot of members of the Community have been profiting because of it. Including both you and Steve Shanks. Whether it is for site costs or whatnot, you are still considered COMMERCIALIZED by selling products. You are upset that this web site which used to be an utopia for Poser Members is going down the tubes. GUESS WHAT it IS NOT because me bringing COMMERCIALIZATION to this place... it IS BECAUSE IT IS POORLY MANAGED!! I've made my share of mistakes in regards to this Community in the past, but I will be DAMNED if I take anyone's shit for the way this site is currently ran and the members are treated. Renderotica has it's own store that I brought to it and that place doesn't have the problems this place has... so it isn't the store! Just so that we are clear on that! Jack

Well, I can tell you this. I have yet to make over a dollar an hour. Also, all us nuts who are working Dragoncon are paying our own way. I'm not the accountant, but if you directly compared the proportion of income to expense, I'd bet the porsche I don't have that the smaller forums have more profit margin than we do.

Oh one other thing... your side comment saying: "(also WITHOUT asking but with YOUR full blessings)" What the hell is that supposed to mean? Hmmm? Are you saying that Edgenet had no clue about the store before we opened it? Guess what, THEY KNEW. In fact it was the major reason why I was accepted into the role of running this place. Heck they encouraged it and was ALL FOR THAT IDEA, if they weren't there still wouldn't be a store here. NOW, now if you mean that YOU the MEMBERS were unaware of a store being placed on this site... well, sorry, I guess that is too bad. Considering at the time it was both mine and Edgenet's web site to begin with, I wasn't aware that we were required to check in with you to get your permission. You wanted to pay it's bills? Hell, I have an idea!! Let's do what you do, let's make the site a pay subscription site. So that EVERYONE will have to pay $10 a month to cover the costs and operations of this site. I can't believe that you sit there and bellyache about the store here. Yet, you have a much SMALLER site and you have to charge to cover your costs... imagine what it costs sites like these that are LARGER and FREE. Before you start hashing crap out, get it right. I am sick of getting shit from people like you who have to piss and moan about every little thing because it doesn't fit your primadonna viewpoints... don't like it? Then leave. If you don't want to leave, then don't stick your finger at me and be quiet! Jack

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Subject: I'm NO sort of a cattle to put a tag on me! (ref: latest TOS update)