O.K., good idea, poorly though out though. Lets either change the default to Commerical Use allowed or have the line come up blank until it is set one way or the other. With the current editor is a pain to change this, and why should we, 90 - 99% of the Freestuff must be ommerical-use-allowed. Let the people who put strings on their stuff go to the trouble of changing it. My stuff is never restricted that way.

And while we are at it, how about a line of text, too? Putting text in a 200 x 200 picture gets real tiresome.

99% of freestuff items are for non-commercial renders only. It wouldn't make sense to default to anything else.

I agree with JeffH. In my recollection, most of the Free Stuff is for non-commercial use. I'd hate like heck to go through all my Free Stuff again and change it.

And while we are at it, how about a line of text, too? Jim, the Notes field works now. The keyword search function even accesses it.

That's why free stuff isn't free. Bah! Non-commercial renders... I understand not being able to sell the mesh (duh), but I'll be d@mned if people should tell me what to do with my pictures. Jim, THANK YOU for your free stuff, and thanks to all who don't restrict. If you're going to restrict, please just sell your products, people. (Boy, I can see the flames being thrown at me already, LOL!)

" 99% of freestuff items are for non-commercial renders only. It wouldn't make sense to default to anything else." Sure, because you made that the default. How many actually say that in their read-me? Maybe it would just be easier to remove mine...

By the way, sorry if I sound really harsh, I'm just sick from ages of downloading free stuff and reading the file to find out it's worthless to me. I'm glad for the new system and I'm glad that my hard drive won't be so overburdened with useless crap now :)

Shaking head in all the items i have downloaded from rosity 99 percent IS for non commercial use only very little is for commercial use.

OFF TOPIC Hello to Jim Burton, I bought your high heel shoes set at DAZ3D very nicely done! And am thinking of buying one your supermodels, I have both Vina D and Victoria 2, but I love Vina D more. Is it possible to use your super Dina on Vina D I wonder? Alex

how about mister eifel tells people "you may make personal photos of the tower, but if you want to sell postcards with it or do anything else commercial with the images of it, contact me!"... :-/ bullsh!t... i'm also not sure if such statement is legaly correct at all. must check with my lawyer...

heyas; i have to agree with jeff, and (though it doesn't apply to MY stuff) the freestuff defaults. i think the majority of stuff is restricted-use, and i'm talking about stuff i've gotten and read, and not the new tags. also, with the 'it ain't okay for commercial stuff unless explicitly stated' rule, that means the commercial-ok minoroty has to explicitly state it. although putting the old stuff in a 'state of limbo' on that issue might have been nice. until people went in and edited. actually, what might be needed is a user-setting for their preferred defaults. or some kinda blanket 'change all my stuff' control. can't it be put in the artist page area or something?

Jim,Miss Tara, I do agree with you. the ownership of the mesh /texture is not questioned, the render belongs to whoever renders it. who gave someone the right to tell me what I can do with my own work? I sure didn't. and copyright laws do not respect limitations on use like that. the copyright only stops you from selling or giving away the mesh or texture, not something made with it. you own the rendered image, you own the copyright, you can legally do what you want with it, even if the person that made a mesh you used put non commercial only. I just spent hours going over copyright laws, and ain't no leg to stand on in court about non commercial limitations people are putting into free stuff.

not to beat a dead horse, simply because it appears the mind is already made up in this decision - but i agree with Mr Burton.. none of my things will have a restriction.. but it sure is a pain in the arse to go back and change it so people can use it however they want to.. however - if you want to put restrictions on things, shouldnt the "responsibility" be put on the person that really doesnt want to "completely" give away their free stuff? i say - default - commercial & non commercial

Back to it....I just wanted to say on the "line of text" idea that as much trouble as it may be, I really appreciate the people that put text in the thumbnail. I save the thumbnails with the file and it makes it easy to see exactly what it is and what it's not. BTW...I also appreciate the people that include a thumbnail in the .zip. Also...what you're saying about ownership sure makes sense to me. But I'd hate for it to deter anyone from sharing. Beav

The only items I've ever placed commercial restrictions on are things trademarked or copyrighted by the original creators, such as the Olympic medals or Yoda. If you want to suffer the full wrath of the LucasFilm Attorney Division, go ahead and try selling videos you've made of the little guy.

Little Dragon, if Lucas film even saw the item was available they would be upset. ~g~ unless it is licensed from them.

Yes, "Subject" is far more the matter, not the tool used. The Yoda character BELONGS to Geo. Lucas and company only. Alex

B!tch and moan, b!tch and moan. Look, I hate to break this to the whiners once again, but freebies are NOT an entitlement. They're a favor. If someone says "hey, I'll mow your lawn for you, but I can only do it on Wednesday" and you refuse to allow it to be done on Wednesday, what happens? You get your own butt out there and do it yourself, and you don't get to grab their lawnmower to do it either. Copyright infringement: copyright laws also protect against derivative works, and I can make a decent argument for an image prominately using a non-commercial freebie as a derivative work. But here's something else to consider: BREACH OF CONTRACT: The read-me file, if there is not another license included, is considered a license. By using any item, you are agreeing to abide by that license's terms, and that is a legal contract. Do you think you get to reverse engineer Microsoft Windows, mess around to make it "your own", and then sell that? Just try it; I'll enjoy watching the lawyers eat you for breakfast. You don't like it, then you don't use it. That is your only option. But hey, tell you what. As one of these jerks who wants a little input on how her hard work is used, I'll make it easy for you. I'll just put my "permission required" stuff somewhere it's appreciated. After all, I'd hate to make some ungrateful prick spend 12 seconds sending me an e-mail asking.

yo FyreSpiryt, thank you for the free conform things, much needed utils! grateful prick, (lol) Alex

I'm a staunch pro-commercial use freebie person. I mean, if its free, it should be free. Non-commercial use means only "half-free" - lol. I do agree that trademarked stuff, i.e. a particular superhero like Superman or what have you, should be for non-commercial use only, UNLESS DC Comics states specifically that you can sell a certain image of their character, etc. I don't download no-commercial use items, and if I do, and the readme doesn't allow for commercial use, it doesn't get installed and it is doomed to the recycle bin - unless it is stuff like Superman/Darth Vader, then it goes in my "No Commerce" foldr, for fun pictures.

shakes head, agrees with FyreSpirit and walks off wondering why the bloody hell anybody bothers with freebies anymore seeing as they're so hated just because people can't make their penny worth of bloody money from it. Frickin' ingrates Free doesn't mean free to say "screw you", it means you don't have to pass over money to download it. Ye gods. Sometimes I think a suggestion made a while ago would be a damned fine idea. Freebies should be available only in a restricted area, accessible by meeting two criteria and an invitation. Damn you lot sound like a bunch of ungrateful swine. Someone provides something you don't have to pay for to get hold of and all you can do is bitch because you can't make money with it? Fine. STAY AWAY from the freestuff areas then. DON'T download anything. Wow, there's a concept huh? You want commercial. Here.... http://www.renderosity.com/marketplace.ez Stay in that area. gimme gimme gimme.. I'm sick to death of it.

This sort of attitude doesn't exactly motivate free stuff providers, you know. You guys make it sound like everyone on this forum makes a living selling their artwork, and it's simply a waste of time downloading anything that cannot be used in commercial work. Free stuff is the life blood for the casual Poser user. "If you're going to restrict, please just sell your products, people." If you're the one going to make money on a commercial render and you can't use a free pair of Poser shoes because the creator says it can't be used in commercial renders, than YOU go buy some shoes that can be. Don't criticize someone for simply trying to share something for free. Just my thoughts as always. Take care. SnowS Hoping his non-commercial pictures are worth 1001 words.

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

I read a thread, recently, in the art theory forum...asking...if you don't create all that is used in your render...is it still art? most poser/bryce users feel that it is. i make most of my own stuff, anyway...so this was kind of a moot point. however, i do agree that posing, lighting, designing the overall composition IS an art form. now, this thread brings up that question once more. after all...if one creates a work of art, one should have the right to use it commercially, yes? so it would seem that those freestuff creators who deem their stuff free for download, only for non commercial renders, feel that the art created using them, as less than "art", as such. hummmm....unpleasant, that. sounds as if...were i to go to the trouble of making a render....let's say 4 or 5 of my own original charactors, textures, maybe even some of my own original clothing...and, then....i was to use this render as a poster for a club, or something...hummmm....if i happened to put in a vase, or a bar, or something i downloaded, as a background article...and, if the maker of that were to object to it being used commercially...i could get harassed???...by the maker of the free item...hey now...i think commercial exposure is good for everyone...this is just silly, and, demeaning to the folks who so gratefully DO use the free resources. Pop...Pop...Poppi!!!

please.. i definately did not intend to mean to be ungrateful.. nor do i think that anyone else posting in this thread was either.. i do believe this topic took a turn in a direction that none of us really intended it to take.. i only meant that i really thought to make it easier for the people that intend things to be 100% free, sounded like a nice idea... more of a "here.. this is easier for you" type of gesture.. i hope noone thought that i was pointing fingers and being ungrateful.. because i do not believe that is how this post was meant to turn out..

"Frickin' ingrates**" If my post inspired your disgust, then I apologize. "gimme gimme gimme.. I'm sick to death of it." I'm not complaining against those who provide free stuff, I'm glad they do, and they are generous for it. However, in my opinion, it is somewhat selfish, or at least anti-Capitalist to not allow for commercial use, I recently deleted my free stuff, except for one - but I have no problem with people using what I provided for free to use in their commercial work. That's why I provided it for free. In fact, one of the joys I have when I provide something for free is that people CAN use it for commercial renders and works. If someone wishes to make money off of their creation, then I agree, they should put it in the Marketplace/or specify the price in a Readme text included in the download. "Don't criticize someone for simply trying to share something for free." What people wish to do with their creations, it is their right, and they are certainly generous for giving it away for free, and taking the time to do it. However, because I plan to sell my artwork, please don't criticize because I pass over the download, I can't keep up with all the stuff I would download, in deciding what is allowed for commercial use, and what isn't. I don't want to violate anyone's copyrights/wishes, so I don't download it. Sometimes, if it is something I just HAVE to have, then I do download it, but put it in a NO COMMERCE folder, or just remember to not use it for commercial works.

Mr. Burton is a master of his craft. And, from what i see, a pretty astute business person. Think about it....how many folks, even the weekend hobbyist....would not WANT to create a render that they could sell, in one way or another? Maybe, I am just seeing this world through some rose colored glass...but, I think anyone who even dabbles in art...aspires to something more...recognition. Perhaps, to put in the readme...notes, whatever it is called in the new freestuff....if your render is used commercially, please give credit to the creator or ....whatever the heck you got free.... Guys....the folks reading this thread are your potential customers. To call people "ungrateful" because they want the right to dream of creating something "saleable", perhaps, using one of your freebies, as a PART of the composition....well, that is not good business sense. Because, gratitute aside....i know putting items up in freestuff is a good promotional. of course, you can do what you want...you made it. there are even some who put such restrictions on market items. Well, i see more and more folks are learning texturing, and, gassspppp...even modelling. i feel with enough restrictions, you guys can put yourselves right out of the ballgame in 6 months or a year.. fyrespryte....i DID download your joint parameter setter. however, i have a question....if i use it on some of my new line of clothing...that, gassspp...i may even release to THIS marketplace, cause i am growing lazy....nevermind...i know the answer...i won't use it. being grateful does not suit me. looked like a cool little proggie though ;*(

I personally have flip-flopped on this issue in the past. I have tried the "Email for permission" scheme, and after about a month of that I wanted people to stop emailing me, LOL. Now any freebies I do are free for commercial renders, because if someone can make a buck rendering an image with something of mine, more power to them. I made the item in the first place because it's fun for me, I really enjoy modeling and I like seeing people render my stuff. :) -Trav

It's amazing how people love to misinterpret the word "Free." The word "free" only means you don't pay a purchase price. It doesn't mean you own the item, and have permission to do anything you want with it. Free Stuff is given by people who have good motives. Many of us can't afford to pay for everything under the sun. We can get started with our hobby by using Free Stuff.. We don't need to pay for it. But why in the hell should you expect someone to help you make money, and to do it for FREE?! Why should you "profit" from someone else's gift? Do you expect to get everything you need for your life free? No. Why is it ok for you to get paid for your work, but not someone else? Will you give the free stuff creator a piece of your income? I doubt it.

Will you give the free stuff creator a piece of your income? I doubt it. Ya know...if i ever used something from freestuff...or, even something from the market in a render...that i sold, or used to promote myself....and, someone thought the free/bought thing was real cool...i would hook the two up in a heartbeat. i like to spread joy, when it happens. and, i do remember those who have been good to me. would YOU???

"But why should you expect someone to help you make money, and to do it for FREE?!" When I give away freebies, I do so because I want the artist to be happy to see that there are no commercial restrictions, the same as if they purchased it, because it is free. When I pay for something, I expect to be able to use it in commercial images. Free stuff should be no different, except in that because its free, you don't have to pay for it. When I give something away for free, I don't want to hinder the artist, and want him/her to be happy with my RoboChicken, my Shin Blade, or the Tallit Thip created, and I textured. I do have two reasonable restrictions on my work, that they not be used in, or the promotion of, illegal or pornographic material. I respect peoples' wishes if they do not want their stuff used in commercial works - but when I give something away for free, I want it to be free to use however you like, save for those two restrictions I mentioned above. When my modelling business gets rolling, I hope to give away free stuff like Daz does, frequently. And what about all the free stuff Daz gives away? Is it wrong to use a free item in a commercial image from them? How about the Gorilla? That was free, should Daz expect people not to use it in commercial items? They don't, in fact, they allow it. Ben

The word "free" only means you don't pay a purchase price. No...i think it means more. i live in america...alleged land of the "free"....and, from what i remember from history/civics....the american freedoms were based on not having restrictions imposed by others. many words can have several meanings....trust me...i am an esl person...i learned this painfully as a child. please don't muddy the waters, on this issue...think not in terms of money...but, in terms of restrictions.

-- back to the original topic, I agree with JB. I would have preferred the default to be blank until the author indicated their preference. No urgent need to guess at the artist's intent. Seems more accurate to give no additional information rather than to presume to label the items with misinformation.

I wholeheartedly agreed with Jim, MissTara, Talmidben, Poppi, etc. Any item, morph or whatever that I create can be used as the artist sees fit. If something truly is a gift, then what difference does it make if someone makes money off of it or not? (I'd brave to say that it's unlikely for most) "Free" defined as "free with strings" is not free, its more like pro-quid-pro (sp). And free defined as "free to download" that's more akin to borrowing (and I'm saying akin to). Wonderful, that's like "free to try". Pfeh! And I'm not a freeloader by any means, I have purchased many things here, DAZ, Runtime DNA and even 3-D Arena. I definately appreciate every free and purchased item that I have and use. I have emailed many times and left comments when I could to many I have gotten free items from. Feedback is extremely important to me and I extend that to others. If "free" doesn't equate to "freely usable, this is a gift" then what's the point of even sharing folks? Is the only appreciation a monetary compensation? That sounds just as greedy... You get some, where's mine?

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I am not ungrateful to those who post their free items, quite the contrary, I take the time to say "thank you" quite often. And yes, I will take the time to write to people when I want to use their free stuff for commercial renders. However, #1, often I lose the readme and cannot find the zip anymore. #2, alot of people change e-mail addresses more often than Liz Taylor changes husbands. It's hard to e-mail someone for permission when their e-mail no longer works. That's why I feel free should be free, period. If you're going to require someone to ask for permission, it's not really free, because there is a cost associated with its use, even if it is taking the time to e-mail someone and wait for a response. Often I have clients who want a piece of art right away and they don't have time for me to wait several days (as is often the case) to get permission from someone to use their item. Now, if all contributors wanted to get upset and say "if you don't like the restrictions, don't download the free stuff" and if everyone listened, there would be no one downloading the stuff and no point in having it. Of course, not everyone would stay away from the downloads, but I thought contributing to free stuff was out of the spirit of giving and "tis better to give than to receive" and such. If that's not the case, if the reason you contribute is not to share with others and be kind and gracious and giving, and to have others enjoy your work, then why contribute? Again, I am not ungrateful. I am very, very grateful to free stuff contributors. But this whole thread did not start out to be a bash-the-people-who-restrict-their-stuff thread, it was simply a suggestion to change the default setting and I thought I would interject my opinion that I thought it was a great idea. Perhaps by having non-commercial as the default people who did not mean to restrict their items might accidentally do so. After all, people who DO restrict their items are the ones who need to be careful and check their settings. People who put no restrictions might not be so careful when posting.

Poppi, please read the read-me files. You will notice that on the QC poses, the terms of use are thus: "Use it. Lots. Free stuff, commercial stuff, I don't care. My hope is that this file will speed up the creation of Poser clothes so that more clothes can be made. All I ask is that you don't sell this file. Feel free to give it to any of your friends; just keep this readme with it. If you want to include it on a CD collection for redistribution, please ask my permission." They can be used for commericial items. That's why they're still posted on the freestuff here and the rest of my stuff is not. If you (general you) want to split hairs, then fine. My stuff isn't free. The price you pay is having to send me an e-mail if you want to make something for sale with my object and obey my response. Frankly, I think that's a pretty cheap price to pay. If you don't like it, go buy something else. You don't get to steal my work. And if I get put out of "business" in six months, fine. I can use the bandwidth for other stuff. As for insults, for the past six months I've put up with being called a "jerk", "b!tch", "@$$hole", and some things I just can't post here, because I ask to be e-mailed for permission if someone wants to use my stuff to make money with. Not even because I don't allow it, because 99.9999% of the time I'd say yes, but because I want to be asked. Fine, I'm sick of it. If that's the "thanks" I'm going to get for trying to do a favor, fine, I'll take my "business" to the 3DCommune, where I don't get this bullsh!t. And if I start getting it there, I'll move again. What was it Anton said in a completely unrelated string? Buying a license to use my products does not also give you a license to insult me? Oh, and as a final note, I looked up "commericial" in the dictionary. "Occupied with or engaged in commerce or work intended for commerce". i.e. something that is not made for profit, but later becomes profitable, is not technically commericial. Darned if I know how a lawyer view this, that just how a linguist views it, and how I view it for my own stuff (albiet explicity stating so is currently a glaring omission in my read-me. I guess I'll go change that on my webpage at least.)

Oh, by the way, while I'm fire-dancing anyway, I should point out that the "commericial/non-commericial" flag doesn't mean dick. It's for reference ONLY. It's the read-me that counts in any legal sense. Given that, would you rather accidentally download something that was marked for commericial use but couldn't be used, or something that wasn't marked but could?

I think Poppi's vision of "free" is nice. Yes, we live in a Free Country. But do you remember the old saying "With Freedom Comes Responsibility?!" Oh, and Freedom of Religion, Speech, etc. are not related to the topic of Free Stuff at all. I do think some people have abused the hell out of the concept of Freedom. We'll save that for another time. *** FyreSpiryt, I feel your pain, and can't argue with your anger, or desire to leave Renderosity. Let me tell you "that other place" isn't always such a safe or ideal place. Hell, I get tired of spending several hours doing something for free, only to turn around and have someone kick me in the balls. That's why Renderosity is my only "real online home" now, and that is why all my Free Stuff and Tutorial links take you directly to my own site. If something goes down the toilet, I don't need to rush over to some online community and change the links. Ron

Well, I am glad that Fyre's conformer is for commercial use. because it is something that will be very useful to me, i think. ron...if my version of "free" is nice...well, i like words, and the many ways in which they can be used. if you remember, i was a huge fan of the now dismatled c&d. i don't use freestuff...for the very reasons in this thread....no, that is not entirely true...mostly, i like making my own stuff...it is satisfying. and, if someone wants to buy something of mine...what a happy surprise. my very favorite victoria texture is janelle by eowyn. i have used her in a couple of gallery posts around christmas time...but, since she is for non commercial use only...well, i found someone who had a real similar variation. i don't have the time to make my own vicki texts, anymore...but, i still need to produce. sigh...there ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy, there's just you and me, and we cannot agree.... ripped off from a song, of course ;*)

You know..I started giving away stuff without restrictions a long time ago.. Nearly 3 years that I have been in this community. I have even seen some of my work in renders that people do for profit. Frankly I am glad to see it used. This is an old debate and I think it tires some. I download stuff and delete what I can't use commercially simply because my art is focusing on commercial art. NO one has said that those placing restrictions are horrible or stupid or should stop. Just that some of us won't be downloading it because we can't use it. Come on people if you think that someday maybe your art will be sold would you use something that requires permission? and what happens after you are long gone and John james jr. great grandson of so and so who got the file here today does an image is he going to email your decendants? NOT SAYING THAT YOU AREN'T ENTITLED TO PUT RESTRICTIONS ON YOUR ITEMS just saying that some of us prefer to look at a larger picture and a larger market area even for our free items. Must be the summer heat.

Commercial (in merriam-webster, anyway) also says: 2 a : viewed with regard to profit

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well, since I'm going to be busy writing a complex suite of programms and not able to have the time for using or making anyhting, doesn't matter what happens with stuff uploaded. won't be having much time for even browsing a forum or two. going to work on my graphics suite for linux instead. btw, the only thing you would have to pay for with it will be plug-ins to be able to use proprietary file types, like pz3's have to protect cl's property by only offering in a secure, pre-compiled format. if I can reach an agreement with cl about this...and adobe, and corel, and all other proprietary file types. ( I'm sure I would have to pay them each a % of each plugin sold that enables using their file type, so would have to charge for them)

Can the default be changed to NOT stand alone? I haven't looked if it has changed in the last 12 hours, sorry if it has. But I think 99% of the stuff is not stand alone and defaulting to stand alone is a bit silly. Only new and original meshes would be truly stand alone. That's what I want to find when I search for stand alone.

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

1. Freeware and shareware are NOT the same as public domain. That applies to the actual item - the model, texture, whatever - it belongs to the maker unless they specifically say it's public domain, and it can't be sold or redistributed without their permission. 2) In the case of digital media, the Renders/Images done with that item are a different story. That's a bit grey, but for me, at least on my things.... the render you do it it is yours. You designed the scene, you setup the render and created the image, the image is yours. No problem. Jaqui is correct that copyright law might not hold up the no commercial renders caluses. That would though fall under contractual law, and contractual law might. It's kinda beside the point though: the creator has the right to put whatever contractual strictures they wish on the use of their creations. If I disagree with the contract, I'm free to not use the items. No probs... But man! Put yourself in the shoes of the freestuff creators on that one... as an artist, would YOU want Me to try and tell you what terms you could put on your work? I kind of doubt it... It doesn't seem that hard to me. I keep the origional zips so I can check readme's and lisences. A lot of times they get seperated as they're burned to CD into "Commercial use"/"non-commercial". If I'm going to download things, and I'm in the business of being a freelance artist..- it's my responsibility to keep track of lisencing on what I use - NOT the responsibility of the freestuff provider. That's just simple proffessionalism, and if I'm going to be a professional, I had damned well better learn proffessionalism. And I had best learn to act like a pro if I expect other professionals to treat me like. Period. That may sound hard, but that's something I learned long ago as a freelancer: if I want to play the game with the other pros, I learn the rules and pays the dues.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Well, I certainly don't plan to sell anything commercially, so don't get my forthcoming comment wrong. I certainly appreciate people who give stuff away for free. And, I've read a lot of threads on this and related topics. So, I have a few remarks/questions: (1) I just can't figure out why someone would give something away and specifically tell people they can't make money with it. If I were able to create anything and didn't want to sell it or try to make money from it, it wouldn't bother me if someone else used it in a render and DID make money from it. Since people here like analogies about yards, try this one: Your neighbor buys a new lawnmower and says he will give you his old one. But before he does so, he tells you that you are strictly prohibited from using that mower to make money by mowing anyone else's lawn. That you may only use it on YOUR lawn. Now, why would that neighbor give a shit? If he did, then he should keep it and go make extra money with it himself. (2) People have place commercial restricitons on renders that have used thier light sets or poses. Now, honestly, how can anyone look at a rendor and know for a fact that HER lights/poses were used (unless some sort of "extreme" pose)? I realize it is a different story for, say, a piece of furniture or auto, etc. (3) Another thread sometime back delved into the possibilites of (a) discovering that an item of yours was used in a commercial render when it had been prohibited (the world is a BIG place!) and (b) going to court and being successful in prosecuting the violator and recieving money. I sued a person (a doctor) whose check bounced in payment for a billing system I wrote for her. I lived next to her county, so it was easy to file. She never showed, so I received a default judgement. Well, I had fun getting my money!!! (NOT) So, I certainly don't want to discourage people from giving away stuff they have worked hard on...but given what I have just mentioned above, I just don't understand why they would restrict it. I certainly wouldn't restrict anything I gave away. After all, if I gave away all my oil painting stuff, why should I get upset if it turned out I had given them to Kinkaid? And as long as I mentioned it, and since I don't seem to understand, would someone please explain to my the reason(s) they have for restricting it?

Ironbear has written one of the few messages in this thread which sounds the least bit adult and professional. Copyright springs into being at the moment of creation. It is a bundle of rights. It is vested entirely in the hands of the creator. The creator AND NO ONE ELSE has the ability to split up that bundle of rights. He may give some rights away freely, and still retain 100% control over the rest of those rights. You do have the right to complain about how he splits those rights; but that is not only self-serving, it is self-defeating. If the creator says "no commercial use" or "with permission only", his decision must be respected, just as his time and the value of his labors must be respected. If you are too flipping lazy to spend 30 seconds asking permission, you don't deserve to have it. Why should you make a profit from his labor? Without even the grace of asking permission? Is that too humbling? Too much to ask for the gift of his time? We have lost many fine people who got tired of being ripped off by the misuse of their work. We almost lost Traveler and a couple of others, who later decided to give this community a second chance. The Japanese modelers are especially sensitive to this, if you use their work without permission they "lose face", with all that implies. Each such loss is a terrible loss to the community as a whole, and just because one greedy bastard couldn't bestir himself enough to ask before taking and using their work in his commercial product. Think about it. If there were no restrictions upon the free items, why would anybody buy in the various Markets? You get what you pay for, and by purchasing a product, you usually purchase more rights with it. If no one buys, the markets will collapse. And when they collapse, we might lose communal websites such as this one, as well as the higher quality items which will no longer have distribution channels. If you are going to be paid for your work, you had best create everything in that rendered image or buy the usage rights for items created by others. The more you act like a professional, the more you will be treated like one. So, folks, GROW UP! You can't just take, take, take, take everything you want, and then bitch, whine, moan, and yammer while refusing to respect the rights of the artist who is willing to share for the joy of sharing. If you don't want to respect those rights, don't bother scrounging through the Free Stuff area. Don't waste your time or their bandwidth. It is that simple. Don't even look. ::shake head:: This is really an ungrateful bunch; worse than any schoolful of kindergardeners. I hope Santa realizes how much coal he is going to need this year. Oh, and Poppi... to say that an artist would lose potential customers by limiting his freestuff is a shade this side of nonsense... if people are taking it freely, they aren't his customers, and if they are endlessly complaining about it, they aren't the customers he wants anyway. And Fyrespiryt... the 3dCommune is the friendliest of the online communities; they've only had to ban one member out of 19,000. The odds here at Renderosity are much worse. I could say more, but would rather work on something given to me by someone here who is truly generous and open-hearted. I need to think about the good people, quiet as they are, and remember why I'm part of this community. Carolly

My free stuff is not restricted. Yet it can be downloaded by someone who does restrict their free stuff. Based on the attitudes of some, my next free stuff item will have the restriction that it is not restricted for people who don't restrict their stuff and restricted for people who do.
That should cover who's grateful, etc.

...... Kendra

I genuinely RESPECT the creator's right to place restrictions; however, we could probably have a more constructive discussion if we understood the motiviation of restricting freestuff. How 'bout a poll?

I think the restriction is about commercial usage versus non-commercial usage, not about there being "no" restrictions, which I'm assuming is an absolute no. I don't thing anyone is this thread is utterly refusing the wishes of a free item author either. I really think a lot is being "read into this". Most of us who were asking "why not? and why for?" are also freestuff contributors who ARE sharing for the joy of sharing. Where's mine! Where's mine! Sounds more like kindergarten drabble to me.

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Well, I would still like someone to address my question. I'd like to know why a person giving a lawnmower to a neighbor would care if he used it to make money. I'd like to know why a person who gave an item away would care if someone else made money from it. I'm curious why someone would put a restriction on something they would have little chance of proving was used. I'm asking because I don't understand the logic. Now, people can call me ingrate, and any other names befitting those whom they feel are somehow inferior to themself. It's just that in all these discussion that have happened in the past, I've never seen a reason why people restrict a free item. Just the usual pleas for them to stop it and the usual name-calling for people who support it.

The way I see it, no one is likely to slap on a texture, model, etc., render it and make a ton of money from it. If their work becomes noticed and they make money from it, it's likely to be a labor of love with lots of time in it, lots of postwork, etc.

Trying to charge someone retroactively because their work becomes noticed isn't very ethical in my opinion. If you want to make money on it, sell it. If you don't care if people play with it or learn from it, let them do what they will with their renders.

It's common sense that the original texture, mesh, object, etc is the property of the creator and what we are discussing is a finished rendered product. It really surprises me how many people worry that a commercial use allowance will allow people to re-sell their mesh/texture/etc.

...... Kendra

My Vickybuster texture is for non-commercial use because it is based on a Staale Loseth texture and he asks that his textures be used in non-commercial works. Can't say I blame him either, since parts of his textures seem to end up in a Marketplace texture every month or so anyway. My light sets and seam guides are OK for use in commercial renders, although I half-jokingly asked in one of the seam guide readmes that if you use it to create a commercial texture, I'd really like to have a copy. 14841 downloads of my seam guides and I've received 3 textures from people...wahooo :) Next time I get the urge to share anything, I'll make sure it's suitable for commercial use...and if it can't be, I'll simply send it to those who are still thankful to get anything for free and don't always need to have the option to make money with it. SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Chuck, Your guy who gave his old lawnmower away didn't build the lawnmower. He didn't spend a week just getting the axles to turn properly and 3 or more weeks fussing over the paint job. He has no emotional involvement with that lawnmower. (Well, if he does, he has problems outside my ability to explain.) Art is different. We put pieces of ourselves out there. Look at the pride people take when they reveal their first prop or hesitating steps at modeling hair. This isn't just a job even for those of us who are full-time artists. There is something more at stake. Carolly

hauksdottir I agree with all you have said. Actually I had written something along those lines but much longer about that there lawn mower. You jsut beat me to it. Kendra.. What is the difference with people puting restrictions on their free downloads here and you doing the same with the web sets you have at yoiur site for download.. I see none please enlighten me. Poppi.. Why not share 'freely' some of those things you keep telling us you make yourself. Helen Who puts no restrictions on her download here but respects the right of those who choose to.

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Senior MarketPlace Tester

If anyone sees a mind wandering aimlessly around..... It is mine.  I want it back.

jsut = just yoiur = your Helen

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Senior MarketPlace Tester

If anyone sees a mind wandering aimlessly around..... It is mine.  I want it back.

waves hands and jumps up and down Me! Me! Send it to me, Snow! ;] whoulps Ahem. Well, there went my professionalism, shot all to hell. grin "And as long as I mentioned it, and since I don't seem to understand, would someone please explain to my the reason(s) they have for restricting it? " I can think of a number of reasons, Chuck. Snow mentioned one... it may be a derivative work based on someone elses design who doesn't mind if it's altered and given for free, but they DO mind if it's used for profit. 2) Fan art. I can make any numer of comics characters, gaming inspired characters etc for poser, do renders of them as "fan fic", and post the poser versions at the 3D-CC, and the odds are real good that Marvel, DC, Image, Id and/or Eidos isn't going to care - as long as I'm not making money with their creations or lisencing them for other people to do so. If you DL a Spiderman character from animotions and make "Spidey Memorabilia" images with it, open up a web site and start selling them without the permission of Marvel Comics to do merchandise for profit with their lisenced trademark and lisenced character... Marvel WILL have their lawyer send you a cease and desist. Likewise for Lara Croft, Spawn or other similar things. THAT's why the "no commercial use" on those, including renders. For me or Doug Sturk to make them and provide them as freebies for personal use is fan art, and it's a labor of love on our part. He likes making superhereos, I like making Wing Commander starships. If we post them, it's to share them with other people who'll appreciate them and enjoy them... not for someone to turn a buck making spiderman memorabilia, or wing commander artwork for T-Shirts to sell. 3) Anime and movie based/inspired characters fall under the same heading. In a lot of cases, you can't use them commercially because they're lisenced - the "No commercial use" restriction is to cover ME legally. I have a deep aversion to lawsuits, can't speak for anyone else. In the case of the Japanese models and anime/characters, there is also the issue of "face" as hauksdottir mentioned. I respect that. I come from a culture, on one side of my family, that takes points of honor with deadly seriousness. Except through absolute ignorace, I wouldn't trample on someone elses notions of honor - like Billy-t's for instance - if I could avoid it. I wouldn't want him to do it to me. Or SnowSultan or Traveler or a lot of other people I respect. Simple courtesy - I choose to not do to you the things I would prefer to not do to me. 4) Personal prefference: We have a character set in freestuff now that has 13,000+ downloads here, and over 25,000 total downloads at the various sites they've been available. That's a LOT of downloads for one character set. I have ONE restriction in that package, aside from the usual "don't sell or repost them without asking". That restriction is simple: NO hard core pornographic imagery or animations etc done with them for posting. Softcore, centerfolds, nude studies, do commercial renders with them... no problems. But no hardcore or bondage or torture mutilation stuff, please. Why? Simple... I learned poser making those characters. I learned morph design doing the faces and the body sculpting on them. I spent almost a year learning the ins and outs of poser 4, magnets, fitting clothing to non standard figures, and matching textures to a character on them. When I was finally happy enough with it to move on, I decided to post them for other people to enjoy. They're not the best mayhaps - definately not the best I can do NOW - but they were the best I had to offer at the time. Any writer in the crowd is going to understand what I'm saying here: you sink that much time and effort into a character, and it becomes a part of you. Doesn't matter if you can do better later, that character is still a part of you with it's own personality and quirks, just like Lee Alverson's Ionne or his twin probably are to him. Hence the one restriction - it may sound silly, but it'd be like giving someone a lisence for abusing my kid to not put that restriction there. But it doesn't sound silly to me. My work, my right to do so. And anyone who knows me respects that choice, anyone who doesn't I don't care about. Dunno. I'm seeing a recurring theme in every example I come up with. Simple courtesy. If it's their work, and they choose to put the restriction on it, well... it's their work and it's simple courtesy for me to respect it. And it just doesn't cost that much to respect someone elses boundaries. shrug The stores are filled with items that can be used without commercial render clauses. And if I have a client that I need to do a render for, as a proffessional, I can ask someone to design an item if needs be and pay for it, and charge that back to the client. That's the way the business works, and clients who are worth working for expect to have tools and materials factored into the cost of the work - they generally understand that a freelance artist is also a business person. If I need a fantasy gown for a project and there's not one available, I can set my fee to cover than and sub contract Styxx to make me one. That's the way graphics studios do business. Freestuff on the other hand is a labor of love, ultimately, and generosity. And it's NOT a "free" one - bandwidth costs money. Hosting items for downloads cost money. Websites cost money. Someone who posts freebies for us to download is generally PAYING for the priveledge of sharing their work, and the dubious priveledge of having people complain about the lisencing agreements. The fact that some poeple like Traveler, April, Helen, Snow, FastTraxx, Nikita, Caligula and many, many, many others continue to eat the cost for giving away things just because they enjoy it inclines me to do a lot of things, but bitching if they put in a restriction isn't one of them. Ya'll can suit yerselves, natch.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"who've ever even SOLD a Poser render" I've sold several.

"will have the restriction that it is not restricted for people who don't restrict their stuff and restricted for people who do." ROTFLOL

BTW, my stance that FREE ITEMS should be allowed for commercial use is NOT arguing that I should be able to do it against the creator's will. I take great pains to avoid copyright infringement, etc., and I agree that you cannot use trademarked items for commercial use for fan art, i.e I do not think I should be able to create Star Wars fan art TO SELL, UNLESS I have permission from LucasArts.

Heh heh. Wasn't aiming at you, Talmid. Since it was asked "why?" on the restrictions, was just numbering off several that came into my head on the whys. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

=-) And all those were good reasons too! My contention is on items that spawned from your own brain, or are virtually public domain, i.e. items that no one has a copyright/trademark on, etc.

I will, hoever bring up another issue, lets say I create an accurate Lamborghini in Lightwave. Can I sell that model? Can I use it in commercial renders? My answer: Not without permission from the Lamborghini company. Why? Because it is THEIR design. Or howa bout this? I virtually replicate a character from a recent popular movie, can I sell it? Again, I say no, yet I have seen both examples been done.

These are potential issues that need to be addressed. I won't sell my gamepak until Nintendo gives me approval, even though it is not 100% a replica, the question is: Is it substantially similar?

So, despite my position that free stuff should be free, it doesn't mean I disregard copyrights.

Carolly, why not get your facts straight?! 3D Commune was never forced to ban anyone. They chose to do so after an ungrateful person attacked me for providing yet another freebie. I responded that my feelings were hurt, and things escalated from there. That is especially ironic considering this conversation.

i don't know why freestuff donators are so unhappy here. there are loads of threads with thankyous and youkeepthiscommunityalives and i took part in not few of them. and, as someone said, in 99,999 % permission is given, then what is the point in asking? as soon as someone announce that he's giving something free in freestuff there are at least 10 people (depending on quality of the item) who respond directly and thank him/her for it. snowsultan is the only one who gave a reason why some of his stuff are only for non commercial use, and i understand it and except it. the trouble is that commercial and and non commercial is not that easy to distinguish. if you do a picture with a brand new free-but-only-for-nc-work texture and show it in your gallery here, then lucas arts sees this and hire you because that was such a great picture, then you definitely made money with it. now, i know that lucas art people seldomly look in renderosity's gallery, but that was just an example :). my point is that self-promotion is also commercial! hauksdottir: "If you are going to be paid for your work, you had best create everything in that rendered image or buy the usage rights for items created by others." if you make a denim texture for a jeans and scan it from the original jeans, are aou making a copyright infringement, because those jeans have their specific design? following your argumentation, you do! you are making an image of something that already exists, same as an (rendered) image of a 3d-object. hauksdottir: "So, folks, GROW UP! You can't just take, take, take, take everything you want, and then bitch, whine, moan, and yammer while refusing to respect the rights of the artist who is willing to share for the joy of sharing." if you are really doing it for the joy of sharing, then what's the problem? if you see that download count has reached the thousands, then be joyfull! or do you want as many "thank yous"?

I like freestuff, it's fun. Seems to me.....way back when....didn't freestuff used to be called Funstuff? Maybe that is what should be changed..... Made for fun, not profit. And let the minority commercial-use-ok stipulate on their free things...that commercial use is ok. I don't trash any of my lovely free things that I have collected because of the non-comercial clause because it would be a bloody miracle if anything I made with it ever sold. And I suspect not everybody here is looking to sell their pictures either. Renaming Freestuff to Funstuff would be easy for people who don't understand the concept that 'free' does not mean free. If it's not really free, then don't call it free. Sasha :)

"Kendra..
What is the difference with people puting restrictions on their free downloads here and you doing the same with the web sets you have at yoiur site for download..
I see none please enlighten me."

Easy, I've done all the work. The graphics, the design, the html (hand coded), the testing. All someone has to do is unzip, upload and they have a decorated website. While I will have spent a considerably longer amount of time depending on the design. Basically, they are getting a finished product with no work of their own.

A render is quite different. One texture or mesh does not a completed product make. This is why I don't feel I should restrict anything I offer here for free. It's like offering someone a brush to paint with.

Enlightened? :)

...... Kendra

Wow...I can't believe I read the whole thing!

First, I'll think I'll just say "great post Ironbear!", and ignore the rest of it.

As for the topic of defaults, I think it would be better if it was blank for both things. Look at freestuff right now...everything says stand alone and for non-commercial use except for the brand new stuff and the things people have taken the time to change. Some people are never going to show up to change it, or are too lazy to bother doing so. So much for accurate search results.

If something has to be a default and it can't be blank, I prefer default being non-commercial simply because when I see something that says "commercial use" I know they are still active and took the time to provide accurate information. Otherwise, there's going to be tons of stuff that says its for commercial use but isn't.

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't recall ever download something without realizing I needed to own something else first so that flag isn't too important to me. Having the notes viewable is nice though. Always wondered why you could enter them but they didn't show up anywhere.

I think some of this has gone way into the realm of modifying meshes and all that. All along I'm assuming that commercial usage means commercial renders (still or animated). I don't think that it means chopping up or repackaging it, or what-have-you. Maybe that's unclear from the get go. I also think its just common sense to not use a trademarked item in a commercial endeavor without the blessing of coca-cola (tm), for example. Ironbear, I completely agree with all the points you mentioned. 2 and 3 would be common knowledge to me (hehe, you started numbering with 2). 4 as presented is commercial-usage friendly (renders) with some terms (no hardcore, etc, which I would find completely acceptable). And if I used your character pack, I would drop you a line to say "thanks, and if you're curious here's the project it's in..."

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Kendra "Easy, I've done all the work. The graphics, the design, the html (hand coded), the testing. All someone has to do is unzip, upload and they have a decorated website. While I will have spent a considerably longer amount of time depending on the design. Basically, they are getting a finished product with no work of their own." Lets expand on this.. "Easy, I've done all the work. The graphics, the design, the html (hand coded), the testing. All someone has to do is unzip, upload and they have a decorated website." You have created the shell for the content. Your set does not the site make. Yes it adds to its ambience its feel.. Much like someones free download from here may add to your finished artwork. The graphics - dito the free download from here The design - dito the free download from here The html (hand coded)- dito the free download from here The testing - dito the free download from here Your set is only 'part' of the web site as a whole. Folks add content, their touches, additions. They expand on your 'free' download. "While I will have spent a considerably longer amount of time depending on the design." I don't think you really have any concept of how much work goes into to creating some of the things that are offered for free. Particulary meshes. I can assure you often much, much longer than it takes to make a web set. Having done both I speak from experience. 'All someone has to do is unzip, upload and they have a decorated website." Now you know this is not so... As I stated earlier. They have a shell. As often seen on sites a 'template' on which to build. Your Web Set as the Download from here. Just part of the whole. As I said before. No difference. Helen :)

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Senior MarketPlace Tester

If anyone sees a mind wandering aimlessly around..... It is mine.  I want it back.

Okay, don't hit me if this is asking the earth, but I've been reading this thread and stressing out. Although the end of the world is likely to happen before I even try to sell stuff, what happens if I do? I have downloaded a few items, but cannot remember where they came from or what the file with the readme in is called, some of the downloaded zip names are obscure! In a years time if I used one I might not even be able find it again to see if it was supposed to have restrictions. What I was wondering is this, would it be possible to put a little sign in the thumbnail that shows up in your poser library so that people could see whether an item had restrictions on it without having to search for readme files which they may have lost? As long as everyone would agree to a standard then it would make it so much easier to know that you had to ask permission or whatever to use the item. Even if it turned up as a small object in the poser scene it could be deleted from there and not interfere with a persons work surely? Ps to ALL of you who do put stuff in the freestuff section both here and in other places THANK YOU SO MUCH. I am still learning how to use poser and as I have a very low income I have been able to experiment and be inspired by all the wonderful things you people put in there. My own personal interest is in making models of antique furniture and clocks.(I am a restorer IRL) When I finally get to grips with it, if anyone is interested I will put them in free stuff and feel I am returning the favour you guys have done me (don't hold your breath though, making moving parts is going to take me a very long time!)

Darn, I think my reply got eaten. Bracka-frazzin' stupid... Anyway, I guess I'll try again. This string has had so many additions overnight, I can't read them all. I'm sorry, but my eyes will fall out. So, I'm just going to answer why I restrict, why I want to be asked even though I allow it 99.9999% of the time, and the lawnmower thing. Why I restrict? 1) A line I found in one of my older freebies readme sums it up pretty well. "Ya got for free, so give for free. It keeps the community healthy." A year ago, I was a poor college student who got Poser through a GREAT 4-program package deal at her univerisity bookstore. I love the art, but I couldn't afford to buy anythign else with it. The freebies were a godsend. I wouldn't have been able to do very much at all without them. My reason for making freebies is to help people in that situation, who are hobbyists who love the art, but don't have it paying for itself much less turning a profit. I'm not doing it to subsidize someone else's career. Maybe that's selfish of me, but that's my reasons and those are the consequences. 2) In many (2/3 at the moment) of my freebies, I don't have the right to allow commercial usage. "Chinderwear" is copyright Best Brains, Inc. The sitable tunic is based off of one of Gary Crowfoot's meshes, and he gave me permission to distribute it for free, for non-commercial usage. If you want to use either of those commercially, you have to ask those people, not me. I don't care; they're not mine to give. If I allow commercial usage 99.9999% of the time, why do I even want people to ask permission? 1) Maybe this is selfish, but I'd like to know. It gives me a chance to offer my congratulations, and ask if there's any changes I could make that would make the freebie even more useful to others. 2) That other 0.0001%. My religious beliefs do not allow me to help someone make money at or with certain activities. This screening may not be foolproof, but it gives me some influence, and recourse if they are used. Without this option, I would not be able to offer them at all, and I rather have them available for the other 99.9999%. If your neighbor gives you a lawnmower, what business is it of his if you use it to make money? What if his religion does not allow gifts to be used to make money? Now, what if his organized religion does, but his personal religious beliefs do not? Now, what if he just doesn't want to you, and that's his condition for offering the lawnmower? Where's the line drawn? Is there a line? I very much respect those who do not download or keep non-commercial-use only downloads to avoid using them by accident. I think that's a very mature attitude. I also think the flags are a great idea, because it saves your time and my bandwidth. What I do not respect is the small minority who insults me for putting those restrictions on my offerings, and the even smaller minority who ignore my wishes entirely.

Helen....If someone will host it...I will gladly upload something, either this evening, or tomorrow. I've been sorting through my little stuffies this morning, trying to decide just what. (And, it will be free of restrictions, except for the resale part.) FyreSpyrit....I haven't tried your joint setter, but it looks cool. If i were to use it for saleable items, would that be okay? I think folks LIKE to dream of selling a render. I don't think too many simply aspire to uploading to the renderosity gallery, and, nothing more. Oh, well, maybe, the Hot 20....wanna discuss it? Pop...Pop...Poppi who is running late, as usual.

I can see a lot of good points from both sides of this argument. If a free-stuff item was repackaged and sold, that is clearly a no-no. No one wants to see his or her hard work stolen and used as a moneymaker for someone else. But unless a free-stuff item is the only object featured in a render, AND that object is being claimed by the artist as his or her own creation, the copyright of the object's original creator is not being infringed upon. I don't take a picture of a building, then call the architect and ask if I can sell that picture. Did I spend millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours designing and building that structure? No. But the architect didn't spend the time to wait for the light to hit the building just right, nor find the perfect spot to create the most dramatic angle for the shot. The building and the concept of its creation belong to the ARCHETECT. The photo and the concept of the setup capturing that building belong to the ARTIST. Using Poser is like using a camera. The artist might not own the world or the objects in the render, but the artist does own the picture. My free stuff is marked as commercially free because that has become the law of the land in Renderosity. But while I may create the morphs, characters or objects that are given away, I am not creating the final render that they are part of, and have no claim over that piece of art. Besides, the sale of a picture in something like an artshow isn't going to steal anyone's thunder, nor make the artist rich. It will, however, give that artist inspiration to continue to work and give him or her a little pocket money that can be used to help keep the craft alive. Y'all do what ya gotta do to maintain peace-of-mind... but please think about my point before crying "thief!" about someone else's artistic composition.

Poppi, absolutely you can use the joint setters for saleable items. You don't even need to ask. Feel free to give me a free copy, though. (You don't have to, it'll just make Fyre-chan bouncy-happy for several days, and get my butt in gear if you have any favors to ask. ^_~) If you run into any problems, contact me and I'll do what I can to help.

Many commercial projects require that you have the rights to the models rendered.

If the model creator's terms don't give that right, it can't be used in commercial work.

Should artists profit from items gotten for free??

Great....What i did was create a new character, whose body shape I like a whole bunch. Then, i went about creating some clothing for her....I am planning on selling the clothing...plus some stuff i made for mike, that needs a little fix up, those....because of what i got from existing cr2s. thank you. i hope to play with it this evening. i will let you know how it works on the romantic shirt i made for michael...it is long, and that is where i am having a problem....the hip/buttock region. if it works, i will upload that to freestuff. if it doesn't...well, i guess i will upload my little character, and, one of her clothing articles....i want her to have everything from lingerie, to a long formal, to slacks....

This topic comes up every so often. In a previous thread, someone consulted a lawyer who said that IHO any picture posted here is arguably "commercial use". You may not be selling it, but by posting it publicly you are advertising your ability and increasing your commercial worth. My free stuff (not at this site) is free. If you can advance your career by using it, I'm happy for you. It's a present. You can do what you like with it, and that includes passing the zip file on to someone else so that they can enjoy it too. The only thing I ask is that is the user doesn't try to sell my meshes or pass them off as his own work. And that's only sensible, because anyone who does that always gets found out pretty quickly with bad consequences.

Even in America freedom comes with certain rights and responsibilities. One of those responsibilities would be to abide by the laws of your country. If a creator wants to give out free items, for whatever reason, and to put restrictions on it's use then, I think, that is their right. I am extremely grateful to those like Jim, et al, who put no restrictions on use of their free stuff, but if they were to put restrictions on them then that's their right. I think most people who are upset about this are the ones who have already downloaded items only to find that they are for non-commercial use. Anyone posting should specify on the notes page and those downloading should read it first.

Tks, IronBear for spending time to answer and explain. With the exception of your item (4)-Personal Preference, I would have to say you have just about stated the obvious. Tho I am not near as talented as most every person in R'City, I do understand the prohibitions on using items based on Coke/Pepsi/Star Wars/comic-based characters, etc. I would disagree on the anime concerns(to a degree) since anime has become a genre. Otherwise, Aiko would be for personal use only. In closing comments to you, I fully understand your lengthy explanation of the love of the char you made and your restriction on it. My remark, however, wasn't dealing with restrictions on those kinds of things. What I didn't understand was restrictions on a table/bookcase/basketball/straw, etc. Common items like that. At the risk of being "pounced on" more than I already have been, I'll say what I think others may be reluctant to say...it's as if people give away some stuff free because they are generous, but not so generous as to allow someone to make money from a render using their "freebie". So, forgetting the Superman chars, the Bud beer bottles, etc., I ask once again, why should someone restrict the use of a pose they made and gave away? Or a pitchfork? Or a flower? Fyre: I appreciate your time, but my analogy was just a bit more common and believable than yours. I've had discussions with lots of people (both here and IRL) and heard plenty of people resort to using outlandish "what-ifs" to try and prove a point when the discussion should really stick to the practical, the probable, and the common examples. I mean, REALLY, just how many people are there out there whose religion would not allow a gift to be used to make money? Applying that to people who restrict "freebies", how many do so based on religion? JeffH: What is wrong with someone profitting from an item given away for FREE? Is that somehow wrong? It certainly doesn't bother some people who give it away for free (in the true meaning of the word). To give a real-world analogy, meaning one that is commonplace and not farfetched, I have put items out for trash in Germany. In Germany, people come by on those special designated days and browse through it on the streetside. They take stuff home and fix it up a bit and sell it. Should I get upset because they got something free and made money off it? After all, by placing it on the street, I gave it away free. In closing, once again (this message...grin), my discussions and questions do NOT indicate and should not indicate I am some sort of pirate. Even my 4 pathetic renders specify everything that I used (usually in more detail than average). Even with a kudo here and there. Also, should hell freeze over and I find myself ever selling anything (meaning about 90,000 members of R'City would have to drop off the face of the earth, I would (1), contact any person whose completely free item I used just to let them know (and make them feel good) and/or (2) contact any person whose item was restricted and request permission to sell a render using their item. Assuming I can locate them, of course. Oh, and one last item for FryeSpiryt: It only takes a few of those loonnnnggggg replys getting "zapped" by R'City before you start to press Ctrl-A and Ctrl-C before posting...grin. (just like I am glad I did with this one...hehe)

"Your set is only 'part' of the web site as a whole.
Folks add content, their touches, additions.
They expand on your 'free' download."

A decent design can make or break a site. You should know that. :) Commercial sites are commercial from the get-go. Most people here are hobbyists. Some sell images they create, some work in the industry. Most of the time, someone will download a free item without anything clear in mind.

"I don't think you really have any concept of how much work goes into to creating some of the things that are offered for free. Particulary meshes. I can assure you often much, much longer than it takes to make a web set. Having done both I speak from experience."

I may not have much up in the way of freestuff but I do have some idea. I've played with mesh's and there's a reason I don't do them right now. :)

I don't care if people restrict or not. It's their right an I'm not telling them they shouldn't. Some stuff I completely understand. Some don't make a lot of sense such as textures for items that have to be purchased. (IMO)
And I resent the fact that someone who restricts their stuff download and use non-restricted stuff. Yet they'll complain about gratitude.

Another reason to have terms for linkware... every teenager and her little sister now have websites. It's pretty easy to put up a site on Geocities with a set nice and coded and ready for Brad Pitts picture. To use anything here, a person will have invested time and money and effort into one or more programs. Setting linkware free has more potential for abuse and theft than something here in free stuff that requires considerably more.

...... Kendra

<<Applying that to people who restrict "freebies", how many do so based on religion?>> I do. So that's one. If I'm the only one, that's fine, but I'm not backing down. Not everyone would even call it "religious", but many people have deeply held personal beliefs that affect how they want their work used (or perhaps more accurately, not used), and that's their right. That means some of them may not want others to profit using their work, and that's their right too. Maybe we're not as generous as someone who puts up their stuff with no restrictions, but I think it's pretty nice to put up anything at all. We don't have to. Many people don't, and every time this conversation comes up I think it'd be easier not to. But many things in life worth doing are not easy. So, I guess it's coming down the the question of whether we're all just going to admit that we're not going to change each other's minds, move on, and go back to avoiding, sorting, or whatever else you do with freebies to keep track of what can be used where. I can promise you that I won't back down on my stuff. I come from a LONG line of stubborn Irish women; I can refuse longer than you can argue. (Heck, if you think I'm a bitch, you should meet my Grandmama. ^_~)

Ugh. What was supposed to be in the brackets up there was "Applying that to people who restrict "freebies", how many do so based on religion?"

Unless my post(s) got misconstrued, I was NEVER asking anyone to change how they gave their stuff away. I was only asking why would so many common items be restricted. That was my dilemma. I've received some answers, some of which stated the obvious. And yours, Fyre, which is the apogee of what I had dared to state above. If I had any talent at all, and could make, say, a pair of gambling dice, I'd darn sure post it completely free. And if one day, someone came up to me and said they had made $5,000 using it (kinda farfetched, I know, but no matter the amount), I'd be happy for them...and perhaps search my soul and ask myself why I couldn't have done the same thing. But the possibility of someone making money from anything I give away bothers me not in the least. I only asked because the concept of giving something away, but not not wanting anyone to make any money from it, seemed alien to me. On a different topic, my dad immigrated to the US from Wales, maybe another reason we don't see eye-to-eye...grin.

I always thought that the main reason for the commerical restrictions was a secret thought that people had- that Stephen Speilburg (or somebody) would see their Posette texture, and think it was just the ticket for the next Star Wars movie, and send them a check with a whole bunch of zeros in it... But that has nothing to do with it. Let's put this on real simple terms: I make Free Stuff available to promote my products, and a gift to my many loyal current and future customers. I'm currently #9 on the "Top Contibutor" list here, incidently. I'm slightly P.O.ed that Renderosity put "Non-commericial use only" on my Free Stuff. Sure I can change it, but why should I have to? My stuff has never had that kind of restriction. While I'm P.O.ed I'm not going to put any more Free Stuff up, like this gown I found laying around in my old files... I'll put it up someplace else, instead.

Well, hopefully I don't get the blame for your decision, Jim. :(

Thanks SciFi. ;] Heh heh. Nether.. I started numbering at 2) becuase my fingers ran away with me and I included 1) in the paragraph above it. And I'm lazy. And numerically challenged. grin Talmid - yes on the Lahmborghini model. AS LONG AS you DO NOT include the lamborghini trademark, their logotype, logo, or any of their trademarked symbols on the model etc. As a rule of thumb, on cross-media itms [auto to mesh, gun to mesh, whathaveyou] that's going to hold true. Also as a rule of thumb, if in doubt, write them and ask. Write not email... with a letter and a physical letter in response, you have something for your files to show that "Yes I have permission" or "Yes they wrote back and said we don't care". Automobiles I know about - I used to work for a company in Dallas that made commemorative plaques for colectors cars and exotic cars. The plaque was always acceptable with image or ethced glass representation, or model, but the manufacturers name, logo, logotype, and trademarked symbols had to have permission obtained on each and every make and model. Firearms I know about because Questor and I are involved in a project to track down and model every firearm in the universe and put them in freestuff. grin And Questor has written, phoned or emailed numerous firearms makers asking just those questions and recieved similar answers from many of them, including Walther, Skmith and Wesson, and Winchester. [I believe] You can ask him on specifics. Ah. Sorry Chuck. Gots carried away. g Seriously... reasons for doing it are probably as individual as the number of people posting freebies. Me - I don't put restrictions commercial render use on mine, or on my joint projects with Esh and Styxx. Readmes on my freestuff are generally identical to the ones in my sale items: You just bought the rights to use it in personal or commercial renders, just don't redistribute it, repackage it, repost it or resell it. Keeps it simple for me. Special case conditions are going to be very rare for me. I seriously doubt I'll add many special case clauses like I did on DangerousCurves. Heya Jim.... really can't say much on that. To me, Rosity, 3Dc, 3DArena and Renderotica provide a location for me to post stuff so that people can find it and download it if they wish. It's up to me, as I see it, to make sure the links work, the thumbnails work, that I upload it in the right section, add whatever keywords are needed, and basically do the upkeep such as check the links periodically - including reset tags if they add new categories or terms. As long as I wish to offer it in their freestuff. I will [and have] bitched about a lot of things here, but bitching about them not doing my job for me is one I'll never do. And upkeep on my freebies [and my sales items] is my job, not theirs. Sorry you feel different. I'll miss seeing your freestuff around here.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I haven't read everything said here but I see a freebie as a gift from the person who makes it, by that I mean they are kindly making something and saying "here you can play with this just don't try to make money with it". A simple email to the maker of the freebie is all that's needed to hopefully get their permission to use it in commercial projects. I'm really greatful to all the people who have made freebies available for me to download, Thank you all. Rob

Gee, you guys are O.K.! The gown is in Free Stuff, too!