I've read a few messages in one thread, and then over at another Poser site that have me greatly concerned that I may have violated copyrights or DAZ policies concerning the use of The Tailor and clothes, and maybe even some characters I've created. I'd done some research and thought I was fine. Now the concerns have caused me to withdraw several of my new Free Stuff submissions. I'm concerned that such an issue apparently is not discussed publicly to the point where it can be easily viewed by all. We need to know the exact stance on this issue, ASAP. This should be available to everyone to avoid further mistakes. Thanks.

Maybe if you tell us what those issues are ot would let us know. I haven't heard a thing about it myself.

Apparantly, DAZ has decided that none of Mike2 or Vicky2's morphs, transferred via Tailor, can be on any distributed file. Which means Marketplace products with morphs to fit Vicky2 and Mike2 have to be pulled. Same with freestuff. NOTHING can fit Mike2 or Vicky2. If you don't own The Tailor, or the appropriate Morphing Clothing Pack, you're SOL. Suck it up, dude. No chance. I ask again: Will existing products have to be pulled? Is there a list of what morphs ARE allowed (i.e., are present on Mike1 and Vicky 1), or are NONE of them allowed? How soon will we know what this situation means?

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

That seems a bit harsh really, and unenforcable. Let's say I make a new clothing item, now my clothing item has morphs to fit the Vicky 2 morphs. How do they know I didn't model them by hand, and if I did, they can't claim any copyright on them at all. I'd like to see thier position stand up in court, I really doubt it would. I think it is time to contact code twister about this, it might not have been his doing but rather a restriction that Daz put on it. If that is the case, then I bought it under prior restrictions and thiers don't stand anyway.

This is still unclear. It does not answer my first two questions. Will existing products have to be pulled? Is there a list of what morphs ARE allowed?

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

Just read it and all I see is double speak from them. From what I gather, if you sell at DAZ you can sell your item but if you sell someplace else or give the item away you are breaking the law. If I create a shirt and add all the morphs nevessary for Vicky2 to wear it by hand, they will come after me for copyright infringment. You know what I say? Screw them, let them come after me. I'll be saving every piece of my work so I can show that it was made by me. Then I will ask if the shape of the human body is copyrighted by them. Only then could I not create morphs that mimic this shape. It just seems like they are trying to corner the market on this. I think maybe Steve Cooper should hear about this also. If it keeps going no one can create clothing that fits any character because all you really would have to do is place posetts head in there and the clothing for Vicky and you will have a vicky lookalike without owning vicky. You will get the posability also because of the joints in the clothing. You would just have to pose the clothing instead of the figure and not use parenting. This gives the same effect that they are trying to stop. I think DAZ just lost my support.

Codetwister hasn't changed his stance on it. The restriction is on the use of Mike 2, Vicki 2 and the other non-distributable morph DAZ products, not on the Tailor. So it doesn't matter what the Tailor license says.

View Ajax's Gallery - View Ajax's Freestuff - View Ajax's Store - Send Ajax a message

Okay, next question: What about clothing that doesn't morph, but is custom designed to fit a specific character CREATED with Mike2? Case in point is my Peytrov character. His armor includes a custom-build bodysuit (100% new geometry, NOT the Mike Bodysuit) that is designed to fit the base build of the Peytrov character. It does not morph, and doesn't quite fit the unmorphed Mike properly. Since the base body shape this armor is designed to work with is a result of Mike2 morphs, does this mean that the armor and bodysuit for this character should be completely scrapped?

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

Ajax, Try making a pair of pants that just come close to the shape of vicky and allow a morph in it that fits vicky2 as a muscular character. Do this all by hand and tell me if it breaks the copyright. With the way it is written the answer is yes. I just read the FAQ on it over there. The mesh doesn't have to match and the final morph doesn't even have to match. Keep in mind they also state randomizing as an illegal operation. This would result in a slightly different shape, yet still be illegal. Keep in mind that this would be a civil case and you would never be able to afford to defend your stance. All they have to do is accuse you of it and you are out of business. With this stance they will have lost my support completly. I'm waiting to hear thier reply to my post and if it is more confusing double speak or they say this would be illegal then I will no longer buy from them nor will I even recognize thier existance.

Valander, the answer is yes. Go read thier FAQ on second stage derivatives.

Okay, where exactly is a URL to their FAQ on second-stage derivatives?

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

Go to thier store and click the button at the top that says FAQ. It is the third question down.

Believe me, I'm not impressed by it either, especially coming after such a long time lapse. I shudder to think how many people have put huge amounts of effort into tailorizing their products to make them M2 and V2 compatible and will probably now have to withdraw them from the market. I just wanted to point out that Codetwister hasn't been a party to this.

View Ajax's Gallery - View Ajax's Freestuff - View Ajax's Store - Send Ajax a message

I understand that Ajax. I really feel for Code Twister and think that possibly he is going to get burned for this. Think about it. Napster itself never transferred music, they only gave the mechanism to do so. Now code twister gives us the mechanism to generate morphs for clothing and these morphs will break thier copyright as stated. I feel they tied his hands and locked him into a permanent deal with them. They won't have a problem as long as THEY are making money off his app, but think about it. If this pisses him off to the point that he pulls it from thier store and decides to sell elsewhere what is to stop them from going after him the way the music industry went after napster.

So from now on, any clothing done for Mike or Vicky has to fit the base Mike and Vicky (or Stephanie), and NOTHING else? With all due respect, this seems to me to be utter crap. Nothing but cookie cutter characters after this, it seems geared to do NOTHING but sell The Tailor. Mac people be d***ed, I guess. In fact, on closer inspection, it now seems that it is completely and utterly illegal according to their liscense agreement to make clothing that actually fits the DAZ models!!!!! Period, completely ignoring the whole current controversy about morphs. Quote: "Derivative works" also refers to most of the methods that may be used to create a "new" mesh around an existing model. This describes perfectly the mothod used to make any form of clothing that even remotely follows the body shape of the target figure (i.e., fits), whether it's box modelling or polygon modelling. Alright, tell me where I'm wrong?

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

Val & I put alot of work into Peytrov & several of our other characters/ clothings. I dont think its fair that we should have to remove our products because DAZ sat on their hands for 4 months. I think that this complaint about the morphs should of been addressed: 1) when mike 2 came out. I know for a fact Valan only has Mike 2 & Vicki 2 to work with because I purchased them for him. 2) when codetwister released the tailor program. I dont appreciate a company where I spend my hard earned money at quite often telling me Im warezing their product because we used a product they sell to enhance a product that we sell. People want clothing ect ect that fits the models they use. Since DAZ has taken their position Im taking mine. Im sorry to say I wont be purchasing another product from DAZ.

Take this one step further. How different is this from creating a CR2 for a clothing item that matches the CR2 for Vicky so that it conforms? Using this I could actually create a shirt without morphs that has the same groupings and JPs as vicky and you could chop off Posettes head and put it inside the shirt. You end up with a vicky like character without owning vicky. You just have to pose the shirt on it's own and not conform as it is a character itself. Just parent the posette neck to the shirt neck and you have it. Go a little further, I want to create my own vicky catsuit, slightly different from the current one with piping and such in various places. I fully model this from scratch so it isn't a copy of thiers. Now use this and add the Posette head the same way and you have a full vicky body. You don't need any of the morphs, just the CR2 to get vicky quality. Thier stance is that you can circumvent buying vicky2 because you can use the morphs on the clothing instead to get the same effect and not worry about morphing the underlying body. I know I might be pushing it a little, but I think it leads to something to think of.

I'd like to hear DAZ's response to this as well. Next thing they will tell us is that you are not allowed to distribute or sell custom morphs for Vicki, Mike, or Stephanie, because they are derived from the basic mesh. Then they will have completely cornered the market. What they are doing sounds anti-competitive to me.

Just my 1/2 a cent :)

Here is a comparison of what Tailor can do. I took the catsuit and using Tailor I put the breastsize8 morph into the catsuit. Victoria on the left has the breastsize8 morph from the that catsuit created in the Tailor. As you can see it, it is not purfect but close. The Victoria in the middle has the breastsize8 morph from the catsuit available in Victoria 2 Morphing Clothing pack. The morph is about as good as in Victoria on the left. Victoria 2 is on the right with the original breastsize8 morph. My conclusions is that Daz would have a hard time enforcing a no distribtion of "Tailored" Victoria 2 morphs in clothing to prevent the distribution of the morphs. Becuase, one can get them from the Morphing Clothing Packs. This is my conclusions. You are welcome to make your own. However, Daz has the final say in the matter.

Hopefully this is the case: They found that they are starting to lose sales to actual warez. They decided to take this stance due to bad info and now they are hurting their supporters and customer base instead of the guilty parties. I really want to see what happens here, if they come clean I will respect that, but with the current double speak I see so far I doubt it highly.

Hey, guys, a bit of patience!!! Sheesh! It is Friday night, almost midnight where DAZ is, and you expect these folks to jump out of bed, pad on their little naked feet across a cold floor to the computer, solely to answer your demands RIGHT THIS MINUTE, or you'll take your models, er marbles, and go home? Nobody is going to be reasonable under that kind of pressure. The folks at DAZ have demonstrated time and time again their generosity and their willingness to work with the community to benefit everybody... and you can't wait a few hours for them to come to some arrangement? At least let them get a night's sleep and a cup of coffee before you start throwing insults and complaints... or maybe it is easier to hit a sleeping target? What a pack of spoiled children! If you don't get an instant decision or capitulation (20 messages in 2 hours) you'll whine, bitch, and moan all weekend instead of doing something productive like discussing alternative methods of building and fitting clothes so that nobody's copyrights are burned. Provoke and scream like a victim is such an old game. Carolly

IMO DAZ has gone too far. I think their definition of "derivitive" has expanded like Vicky 2's breasts. The last time I checked, you could not copyright a "concept" or an "idea". But that is what a general "shape" is in the 3D modeling world. It is the mesh that provides the copyrightable substance, not the shape. I can understand that literal CODE can be copyrighted too, but conforming morphs don't violate copyright because they are not literal copies of original code, but must be "translated" to reflect the differences between the morphed object and the target. DAZ is suggesting that anything which conforms to the SHAPE of a morphed Vicky2 or Michael2 is an infringement. I say Bah! Maybe it is time for this community to get together and develop our own copyright free meshes jointly and avoid this hassle alltogether. We certainly have the talent around to do it.

Perhaps giving away that low-res Vicki was not the wisest idea after all-- though it did mean a lot more Vicki clothes from the masters in Japan. Can you do this with the low res Vicki? Can you switch morphs from the bod over to the Low res vick-- make it tits, that's what most thieves want to copy anyway. Yeah, I'm not in a good mood. I don't like being put in the position of being a pirate. But I'm not giving up items I paid for either. Ex post facto laws dont cut any ice for me. They are anathema. Take the low res Vicki away! Take away Vicki 1. I think Daz, who has always had a cool head and an understanding relationship with it's customers, has been getting some very bad advice for quite awhile now. But I don't intend to pay for it. The rule is ridiculous since they themselves are breaking it. The morphs are no damn good unless clothing fits them. If by fitting the clothing, using Daz's own products, you can steal the morphs, then they shot themselves in the foot. Because I don't see any requirements for having Mike 2 before buying his morphable clothes. I also don't see how MAC users can fit their morphed figures into anything-- since they can't buy and use Tailor. The morphs are turning out to be not valuable at all but huge damn albatross around everybody's neck! This is not an good economic climate in which to cut consumer's throats. Emily

Since the Tailor does not tranfer morphs, but approximates them, Daz has no say in how they can be used.

No, hauksdottir, that's not the point anymore. Right now, it's not a matter of "Answer us now!", it's a matter of just how much impact this decision of theirs will have. Originally, I had hoped that since Dan had posted only a very breif time before I started responding to this thread that we would get word back, but I am willing to wait until Monday, if need be, to get the decisions from them. This is a very important subject, as it impacts not only future products, but past ones, as well. Large numbers of products would have to be removed from online stores all over the place, and aspersions cast on people who purchased them. Also, please do not accuse me of being a "spoiled brat". A problem cannot have a solution proposed for it until all the ramifications of that problem have been determined. As for the "finding alternate solutions to fit clothes", according to the DAZ statement about the morphs, there is only one option - buy their morphing clothing pack, or buy The Tailor. As for modelling clothes in the first place, the line from their own FAQ implies that making any clothing that fits the base figures, themselves, is against their EULA. It goes on to say that no method of doing such, even ones they do not yet know about, would be acceptable. Once again, until all the ramifications of a situation are known, alternatives CANNOT be proposed.

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

Thanks Jeff. I was about to chime in and point out that since DAZ doesn't own the file formats to dial settings, they might want to apologize to Curious Labs for claiming any rights whatsoever on CL copyrighted material. In fact, those files are allowed to be sold only because CL says so. If CL wanted to announce that no .pz3's etc. could ever be sold without license, they could, so whoever is feeling sensitive over at DAZ better start checking with a copyrights lawyer before treating community members to a hard line. Paul

Sad fact of life #1283: You can't "own" a dial setting. Technically speaking, Curious Labs owns every dial setting from within the Poser software, and every lighting position. Why are we allowed to sell them? Because Steve Cooper knows that it's a benefit to everyone to allow anyone who wants to make content for his product. Duh. Now, DAZ, I feel for you, and I sympathize that you need to worry about money at a time when you just purchased freeware and a home pc... but let the rest of us be, will ya? We bought Vicky, so you got our dollars already. You want more? Produce something we want. :) Paul

Note about the preceding posts: This was previously going to be the topic of a magazine article, but since it's pretty relevant to the current situation, I thought I might just go ahead and spoil the ending. Cheers.

I saw this thread earlier and only glanced over it. When I came back, I was searching for the link that USED to be here but couldn't find it thanks to the goofy TOS I imagine. That aside, I ended up finding what this all started from (read: the former link), and I see that DAZ (hereafter typed as daz because I'm lazy) has put their collective feet in their mouth (not just one foot, but two). If one looks at the various FAQs and responses, one would be led to believe it's illegal to well...do anything that even results in any sort of reflection of a daz product, i.e. a piece of clothing that fits a daz model, or some other such item. Well, that would never stand up in court, but they have money. How about a class action lawsuit? I'm no lawyer, but those seem nifty. Or what about one of those various groups that supports software folks being pushed around by big companies? Anyhow, that stuff aside, since I really think that's taking the extreme possibilities route, I believe daz will see what people are saying and realize how confusing they are on their stance and how bad an idea it is (relating to the various things they proposed for morphs). If some of this must stick, maybe we'll at least get a clear list on what's "acceptable" and what is not. (I don't see using the bodysuit as a particularly good replacement for a body, especially if you need to show some skin. Mapping a body texture onto one to "replace" the body just seems like it'd result in something ugly, making the bodysuit only useful as a full article of clothing, hopped up on morphs or not, which makes it only partially useful.) Now, I know we're still trying to figure out what's going on, but we also don't have all of the information, which also makes it difficult to understand the possible ramifications, though it doesn't mean we shouldn't try, just let's not go overboard. Let's give them some time to respond and then, and only then, will we really know what to do. In the meanwhile, who's going to start on the freeware models? ;)

I think if Daz is so concerned about people using Taylor to "rip off" their morphs for use with clothing then at the very least Daz owes it to everyone who's ever bought even a single Daz clothing item to come out with new versions of each clothing item they sell with every possible morph included to match those of Vick & Mike. They then must give those upgraded versions free to every customer they've sold to. No new clothing items should ever be released by them without all those morphs included as well. If they won't do that, then to hell with what they want. Use Tailor & let them take you to court, they'll probably lose and even if they don't it'll cost them a ton of money and time. NW316

Hehe, maybe should make a freeware figure that is Posette clothes compatible... ;)

.

glances up at the top of the thread... Heh, I hope Ron didn't have "Email me when someone replies" checked... 32 posts so far, counting this one... and odds are -EVERYONE- is going to chime in here.

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

DAZ can say whatever the f*** they like. Their position on this subject is legally unenforcebale. Tailor does not copy morphs. It creates new morphs in a totally different mesh. DAZ are getting way too paranoid, and their only way of enforcing this sort of crap is by bullying and threats. They have crossed the line a couple of times recently. I totally support the right of any artist/creator/vendor to protect their work, but this goes beyond.

jw

Heh... Stay tuned folks... DAZ is just getting revved up, I got a feeling... something in the air smells funky, and I just got outta the shower so I know it ain't me. :) Entropic

Hoo boy. My eye's twitching too. I hope its just allergies...

.

Why would DAZ do that? This is rather drastic. Could this have anything to do with the comming of P5? Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

I highly doubt that's the case quixote. If there were something in P5 that could make DAZ freak out about there market, Rosity would be, too. Nonetheless, I definitely smell blood...

hmmm... maybe with buying a site like poserpros?

Maybe... I think we're getting warmer...

Hell of a deal for poserpros...

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Yup. For a "nonprofit" site, they sure just made bank.

So this could be an exclusive market place for everything morphed (the new poserpros, I mean), with daz getting a cut on every sale. Quite a coup, if that's it.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

So, I slip back to this and find not just brats, but vicious brats sharpening their pointy fangs and looking for something to bite. It also looks like 2-3 posts above mine have been deleted, that was the 23rd or 24th message. Valander, at least you are willing to wait until DAZ answers before skewering them. My comments about spoiled children are a general blanket condemnation of this group, of which very few reasonable people may get excepted. The initial post was provocative and demanding, and the tone since then has been relentless and increasingly strident. I need to clear my head, and grocery shopping ought to do it. If I don't come back with cat food, I may find pointy fangs closer to home anyway. Carolly

like said by several here already, cant tell me that I cant make a morph or character myself that resembles something..dont care who you are. cant tell me I cant use industry standards to create something either (modeling around a figure or image IS standard..if it weren't, why do almost all apps have this ability?) this is unenforcable..but, when daz see's it they'll respond...and ya'll should be patient until then :) but the real reason Im posting is that this looks like its gonna get good and I wanted an email when someone posts..lol BT

As long as you don't use a copyrighted name you can not stop someone from making clothing that fits to a certain dimension. If tailor uses copyright code belonging to DAZ then DAZ may have a case. However this seems unlikely. It will cost DAZ a fortune to prove that the do have a copyright to the sizes of their models, and the may be unsuccessful eventually. DAZ has to find the person involved and that may be impossible from a net name. DAZ has to be sure its not suing a 13 year old boy or someone with no assets. So does DAZ have the money, the time , the ability to find the owner of tailor? If it does will it want to spend the money on a dubious case? This barking dog has no teeth, it does not matter what DAZ's position is if its not leagaly enforcable matter

If you think the talk is rough here, you see the anger over at PoserPros. There's no conspiracy here, we are all bailing in the same damn sinking boat. I do not want to have to go to one only place to buy clothes for mil figures that fit. That looks like the issue. And it sucks. It doesn't stop at Tailor. Not in the fine print. It really doesn't stop anywhere. I just hate RobberBaron mentality! And I don't see that being a patient little doormat helps anyone at this point. Emily Well, I wanted to learn Vue anyway.

Geez! And I just bought Micheal 2 three hours ago! Alex

quixote: Well,I doubt they can get away with an exclusive market, even if they want to... hauksdottir: DAZ has increasingly caused problems for the community. I wasn't going to go into this here, but they've been acting pretty damn shady for awhile now. As for their acquisition of PoserPros, I said I wish them the best, andI mean it. Don't get me wrong though, I think it was an example of chasing bad beer with bad whiskey, and expecting it to improve things. Am I sharpening my fangs? Nope! I'm content to sit back and be entertained by the ensuing chaos... It makes for a good laugh. Beyond that, this bullshit that they're pretending is their "right" is really just a load. If they had taken any time or consideration to consult any legal counsel, they'd know that. Even pretending to have the right to revoke a person's implied license on what, in effect, is an aspect of the P4 software is offensive, and I have no intention of letting good merchants and members get beat up on. This attempt by DAZ to restrict the community is an effort to defend their market's mediocrity. This would be like Ford saying that only they can build a radiator hose to a 1977 Pinto, because they built the Pinto. Welcome to a free market economy, brothers and sisters, and let the best developer win. Paul

Usually this sort of decision is taken either out of greed or has a reaction to something comming down the line. I can't fault anyone for jumping to the greed conclusion with Enron, Worldcom and Xerox so prominently in the news. But it may be best to wait and see on this one. Perhaps I'm less cynical than usual right now, but I have a feeling that it's "something comming down the line" with this one. Too many changes comming. Very difficult to speculate. Stay cool, Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

quixote: I agree that change is in the wind, quixote. I think it's gonna be pretty tough to divine what reactions are being made to which changes, though, because there's a whole lot of turbulence. If we just look at a few of the issues of the day we can easily find 5 or 10 different upheavals in the market and in the community. Personally, I think the end result will be a stronger community, but I'm sure there will be a bit of chaos between now and then. Paul

Entropy works in misterious ways. A lot of wasted energy around here lately. (no pun- just fascinated by the principle) Or is it just me? I agree. Maybe this will bring everybody to the same page. Change can sometimes be good. As long as everybody can get a fair hearing and input. This too, shall pass. Cheers, Paul Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Lately I see a recurrent theme in Poserland.
Somebody (a vendor, a Poser site, whatever) wants to expand. They have only limited options how to do this and they use the easy (and sleazy) way. They try to stifle the competition. DAZ is not the first one to try it, and probably not the last.

All I can say is: This is not the way.

I'll just chime in with my support of the overwhelmingly obvious: The "shape" of Victoria, and the morphs that are part of that shape are not copyrightable entities. What IS protectable is the mesh. It MIGHT be possible to consider an automatic process that copied and modified that mesh as an infringement (coopy the mesh, reandomize and smooth as an example). But if I drag Vicky into Rhino, and make a curve network that will allow me to duplicate the shape to model clothing around there is absolutely NO claim there that Daz can make. They can try and threaten, they can ggo to court if they want but it is a simple fact of life.

Maybe DAZ is indeed opposed to what you describe, Soulhuntre - I have started a new thread (http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=765077) hoping for clarification of just this point, as I consider it essential, both to DAZ and the Poser community at large. After all, clothes creation becomes virtually impossible if even using a DAZ figure as reference makes the resulting clothes a infringement. DAZ has been very reasonable in the past, so I think and hope this is just a misunderstanding of a very understandable attempt by DAZ to protect their intellectual - but I'd like to know for sure, before I inadvertently break a law, or lure others into doing so.

Carolly, your comment is totally unjustified here. 1.) The Tailor has been out for several months. DAZ has had no official negative stance on Tailor. 2.) DAZ now is the exclusive vendor for Tailor. 3.) I came home, and at 10 pm, read a brief reference to DAZ's new policy in a message here at Renderosity. DAZ made no move to publicize that decision here at Renderosity. 4.) My work requires me to work till 9 pm Friday and then come back in at 9 am on Saturday. I'm wasting valuable time researching an issue that has been around for several months. In the end I delete most of my new Free Stuff items. 5.) I'm a paying customer, and I expect to get my money's worth. I expect Customer Serivice ASAP if it applies. 6.) As it stands, hundreds of products (many or most FREE items) have been prepared that now probably need to be removed. 7.) As it stands "might makes right." How many of us can afford to risk a threat from DAZ? I would be endangering our family financial situation by taking a chance that DAZ would pursue me. I certainly couldn't afford a fight in court. Hell I would probably lose my marriage for endangering our home this way. 8.) DAZ had every opportunity for all these months to tell us if they had a problem. Hell DAZ could have squashed the Tailor product before it got off the ground. Tell me, Carolly, have you bought the Tailor? Have you used any products prepared with The Tailor? Carolly, it appears you really don't give a squat about your fellow artists who have been greatly affected by DAZ's shady way of finally adopting a stance against the work that so many of us have done. That's too bad. Ron

Guys and gals : please lay off the "shady" and "sleazy", etc. Several Poser people have now asked DAZ for clarification, so let's let them have their say. I'm sure they gather from threads like this one that this is a very important matter, and they have been very sensible people in the past. The anger in many of the threads is understandable, but it may be unfounded, so please take a deep breath. Cheers, thip

DAZ's tactics so far smack of shady and sleazy. Hell, they waited several months to come out with this. I read it on a Friday night, and DAZ is conveniently closed for the weekend. I hate like hell to waste my time, money and energy buying a product which allows me to share Freebies, and then needing to remove them for fear of being sued.

Yep, sleazy is maybe not proper, but I'm ticked off.

To me this looks like an inoculation against one of the new features in Poser 5, or the start of a development kit stratagy. Let's not dramatize this untill we know more. NDA's can suck sometimes. Stay cool, no divorces, no gloom. Patience. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Hell I would probably lose my marriage for endangering our home this way. LOL..."till Daz do us part"?

Some question: Daz can put any thing that he wants with his copyright, but they are legal. He can put in his copyright that you can't use xxx method for creating derivate meshes, but if they haven't legal rights for forbiding you to use the xxx method, you can simple ignore what they say. The best thing is to find what is legal and was isn't in Daz copyright statements. Consult a lawyer and not what Daz is telling. Second point: If the Daz impositions are legal and this causes harm to the Poser community, just publish this restrictions in all Poser sites, and then nobody more will buy Daz's products.

Stupidity also evolves!

And another point: The products that are sold at Renderosity and other sites, in general, are better that the ones that Daz sell

Stupidity also evolves!

It seems to me like Daz are saying no-one else is allowed to make anything for poser that uses anything of theirs, that's fine while we have posette & dork to fall back on, but what happens when poser5 comes out and all the figures are from Daz? who has the final say in the matter then? I think CL has to take a stand on this as they own the copyright for poser & anything that goes with it. next thing you know Daz will be saying anyone who d/l cooler's banana is breaking the law cause it looks like theirs. Rob

Just posting because I want email back too.

but.... The rumour mill when it comes to Poser and Poser related merchandise has always been rampant and vicious. Things start out with an simple statement and end in an all out flame war. This is something that I just heard..I DO NOT know if this is true or not... I have heard that Poser5 will contain its own clothing "designer" in which any article of clothing can be made to fit any other character. (Again this is hearsay.) If this is true, the need for The Tailor will be eliminated. If this is also true, does this mean DAZ could sue the creator of the very program they make their living on because it contains a vehicle to potentially offer copyright violations. Napster was shut down because they offered the potential to copyright. They didn't offer the copyrighted material. Think about it. Think about this, too. If CL does indeed have a clothing morpher in P5 and if, as rumour has it, that P5 is going to be introduced at Siggraph (sp?), isn't rather convenient that DAZ had come up with such an announcement this close to Siggraph. Sounds more to me like one hand is washing the other and the consumer is getting the no grease/no kiss delivery. But like I said, the Poser rumour mill is a vicious place to be. It could all just be smake and mirrors from someone revels in stirring stuff up. I am going to remain indifferent about this until DAZ replies. But either way, as the end user, we are the true leaders of these companies. We dictate whether they succeed or fail. If these things do indeed happen, then the easiest recourse would be to stop buying until things change. And if we do stop buying, they will, quickly.

Bad Joke...ok. ok.. :) BUT! c1rcle said: "next thing you know Daz will be saying anyone who d/l cooler's banana is breaking the law cause it looks like theirs." Could anyone imagine Cooler being accused of warezing? LOL! If Alanis ever wrote an Ironic2, she could use that in a line of the song, "It's like Cooler being accused of distributing warez/Oh isn't it ironic..." =) I have heard that Cooler is employed by DAZ so it could very well be his banana, But, anyway, I'll stop trying to lighten the mood. Proceed....

Ron, Why don't you think a bit about what you are typing? You blame DAZ for starting this ruckus on a Friday night and then leaving. Huh? The message at PoserPros was an answer to a question raised by a member and was posted last TUESDAY afternoon. You could easily have read it Tuesday. Your arguments about lack of sleep, and having to work, etc., don't hold water. You get no pity from me. It is 6:30 AM my time, and I'm STILL up... but I don't need tiny violins to accompany what I write. The message at PoserPros is quite reasonable. It raises more questions, but it isn't a threat or ukase. When more questions are raised, they need to be calmly phrased, so the the difficulties are obvious, and so that solutions can be found. Calling names isn't going to help anybody find a solution. I simply don't understand why anyone is screaming about lawyers and getting sued, unless they like being the victim and want to be first in line before the firing squad. FYI, I don't own The Tailor, and haven't found a need for anything made or modified with it. I have purchased a goodly number of items from DAZ, from the Marketplace here, from BBay, and from private parties such as PhilC and Nerd. I only purchase quality items and have been well pleased. Sometimes I have been exceptionally delighted. However, even if I found a problem with an item or a position, I wouldn't insistently demand or expect that the provider be there at midnight to cater to my concerns. You are not going to get 24 hour service from a small friendly company... they let their employees sleep at night. ::sheesh!:: BTW, I care about my fellow artists. I don't find it necessary to brag about what I've done for them or moan about the sacrifices. What I do, I do for the sake of the doing, and nothing else. Carolly

Vicky clothed? What a strange idea....

The clothes are superfluos, Vicky, Stephanie and Posette only needs some skin texture and a hair, maybe also some ropes or chains.

Stupidity also evolves!

LOL! I think ya nailed it there kawecki!

"Film at 11:00." Neighbors say: But they were such a quiet company... ;] Er... before we break out the tar, feathers and ropes for the lynching [as entertaining as that might be], does anyone have a link to where Daz themselves stated that Tailor modified clothing can't be distributed? I'm not seeing it - at their site or elsewhere. Not a statement from Daz anyway. And this seems contradictory to what they do say in their FAQ here: "Can new Accessories be created to work for Victoria 2.0 and Michael 2.0? Absolutely. We see a tremendous value in allowing (in fact, encouraging) other artists and developers to continue to create for Victoria and Michael. Victoria 2.0 and Michael 2.0 will not discourage this development. We will still have a free, downloadable CR2 file for Victoria and Michael containing all the originally released morphs. We have created another CR2 file that works with the new Victoria and Michael model with the P4 body that is also available for free on our website since the one with the product is non-distributable. This CR2 contains the original Victoria and Michael facial morphs" I'm just curious on that point. Either way... what JeffH said is pretty definitive: it wouldn't be enforceable [unless they buy off the copyright court judge]. As I understand it, the Tailor reads the morph info in the underlying figure, and then extrapolates pint positions and moves the vetices and points on the outer conformer to approximate the morphs in the conforming item. The conforming item, morphed or not, is still unique non-daz geometry that's been reshaped. Daz doesn't own the copyright to Valadars or Xurges or Billy-t's geometry, nor to any shaping mods made to it. They own their own morphs in the mil-figures geometry. Odds are pretty good a copyright court will back that interpretation, were someone foolish enough to sue on it. Odds are also pretty good that Daz wouldn't relish taking the gamble and losing the suit - the can of worms that'd open for them would make for good fishing for copyright attorneys. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

this all goes back to the posette hand knockoff figure from a while back. I said it then, done said it here once... you can not restrict common practice! the illustration with the radiator hose is very nicely put. Sad thing, no one ever said law and common sense were even remotely related :P DAZ is a small company and inherently small companies pay attention to their customers. I dont think them evil..and none of you should either. They may be overstepping boundaries, but until ya get more info...do like bear said and put the torches and ropes away for a bit :) ooooooh the drama! lol BT

"I have heard that Cooler is employed by DAZ so it could very well be his banana, " No he's not, Kevin. Cooler is a self employed mercenary working on his own nickle.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I wish it wasn't the weekend, then we'd maybe have an answer, it doesn't make sense tho, daz sells us something then tells us we can't use it for what it's meant to be used for. the tailor makes morph targets in clothes, but if we use it to do that we're breaking the law, someone needs to smell their coffee quick. Rob

2 Samuel "19 The beauty of Israel is slain upon thy high places: how are the mighty fallen! 20 Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in the streets of As'kelon; lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph." To think, only a few days ago, speaking ill of Daz here rated a spanking. Now, the blade of madame le guillotine is hungry for blood. I had a vague feeling when the Tailor came out that somehow, somewhere, someone would sense that money was being lost. Money makes people do strange thing. Throw in a lawyer or two and there'll be blood on the floor before it's over. I would take heart from the following: 1. Daz may be silly at times like everyone else, but they're probably not terminally stupid. 2. They're not that big and they'd prefer not to spend money on defending what may be a questionable case if they can find a face saving alternative. Negotiate, don't demand. If people's egos get involved, they become irrational. Peace, love, be cool. Why do I feel like Mary Balin on the stage at Altamont just before a Hell's Agnel cold cocked him with a pool cue?

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

the tailor makes morph targets in clothes, but if we use it to do that we're breaking the law, someone needs to smell their coffee quick.<<< Nah, that's not what they're saying. They're saying you can't share the morphs you make with tailor unless you're selling them on the DAZ site. Which is basically saying they want to have their cake and eat it. It's an indefensible position.

It's a marketing ploy, c1rcle. ;] Think about it: Codetwister: "Hrmmm... Tailor sales are dropping." Chad Smith: "Oh man... bummer dude..." Steve: "I know! Let's stir up a huge controversy at Rendo with a bogus announcement. Then everyone will panick thinking we're about to drop Tailor, and all the people who haven't bought it yet will rush out and grab it - credit cards in hands! Then in a week we announce we thought it through and it was all a mistake." Codetwister: "Nah.. That trick never works. Ask Rocky Squirrel" Chad Smith: "Worked for CuriousLabs on that amnesty thingy..." Steve: "Cooooooolllllllio. Let's do it!" snicker

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

The precceding conversation was made up by my two cats, Smoke and Sphynxx. No actual vendors or Daz personell were involved, and it is not meant to be taken as an actual conversation...

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

best thing to do really is wait till Monday and see what they have to say about it. could be all just mountain out of molehill again. Why would they drop something that's going to make them loads of money by making people buy the same clothing twice? Rob

ahem Turtle. That was Pariah. I stated that cooler is NOT employed by Daz. Of course the simplest way to do it is to like, ask cooler. And then decide if you believe his answer... Oh wait - that's not simple. That requires sending an email and then making a decision based on what someone tells one. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Well first off Daz did not say many of the things people are saying they did. If you look very close at the post they made at PoserPros it simply is from their faq which has been on their site for months. However, there was an example they used where they would have a problem if the Tailor was used. It was Mikes catsuit where a person would use tailor to morph the catsuit using the Mike2 morphs. Then distribute the new catsuit with the Mike2 morphs so any one could essentially morph mike1 using the tailor. Thats the only example they gave. They also gave an example where it was okay to use the Tailor so I dont understand all the hoopla. Let them respond and see what they say to some of the miss information people seem to be spreading around. Ron

Carolly, you forget one important fact. Tailor came out several months ago. Now DAZ apparently is taking a stand saying that sharing Tailored clothes is a violation of copyright. DAZ most likely knew about Tailor before it was even for sale. I imagine Codetwister would have talked to DAZ an Curious Labs to be sure it was ok to sell the product. DAZ could have taken this stance before many of us bought the program, and before we had already shared our own Tailored versions of the clothes. DAZ's stance is listed at PoserPros. Apparently we are not able to list links to that thread here, because any such messages are deleted. DAZ's message on this topic makes it appear that I and others have violated copyrights, and that the only recourse we'd have would be to negotiate an exclusive deal with DAZ. That means no selling of the merchandise elsewhere, and no freebies.

Here is the actual quote. No where in it did Daz say you cant use the Tailor except under limited circumstances which to me are very fair. "There is little to no creative abilities within the bounds/code of the Tailor, simply tools to manipulate/transfer/organize, etc. And though Codetwister's application does allow some pretty unique results, this is not considered original creation or design. HOWEVER, and this is the big crucial "however", because the new cr2's generated by The Tailor still require that people possess both AIko and the Victoria Clothing Pak in order to make use of the new CR2's. Whenever a new character or product requires that both the figure that the morphs were transferred from and the figure that the morphs were transferred to be owned already by the users, then this process is legal. When this guideline is adhered to, neither DAZ, nor any of the artists that work cooperatively as Brokered Artists with DAZ, or any other creator for that matter, is damaged by such new creations. This does not mean that derivative characters cannot be made or sold if they work off of limited use CR2 files. In fact, there are many ways in which this can be done, whether it be via MOR Pose files (perhaps the most preferred method by us), OBJaction mover, etc. By "Limited Use CR2" I mean those that are non-distributable. In the case of DAZ's property, any Millennium Figure CR2 (other than say Michael 1.0, Victoria 1.0, or the Millennium Baby to name a few) is considered to be "non-distributable". What I want to address here though is the concept of "circumvention". This is the simplest and most accurate way to state DAZ's position on any such characters. The only thing DAZ considers unfair, and therefore illegal, is when someone creates a character that then makes it possible for people to truly benefit from the Millennium Figures CR2 contents without having to purchase the Millennium Figure itself. For example, if someone creates a CR2 file for Michael's Bodysuit that contains the Muscular3 morph from Michael 2.0 and then begins to distribute that new CR2 publicly or commercially, suddenly people who have never purchased Michael 2.0 will benefit from items included only within Michael 2.0. We feel that this is unfair, particularly when it creates a disincentive to purchase that original product. Basically, anything that circumvents the need to purchase an original product is most likely not allowed. There is another issue that needs to be addressed: Under normal licensing standpoints, it would be damaging to the sales of The Tailor, since people could get the morphs without purchasing The Tailor. But, "Codetwister" has relinquished all such rights openly and publicly, stating specifically that such practices are allowable. I have personally communicated with CodeTwister specifically on this issue and he has reaffirmed his desire not to restrict the use of his application with such copyright rules." Ron

This is legal double-talk. "HOWEVER, and this is the big crucial "however", because the new cr2's generated by The Tailor still require that people possess both AIko and the Victoria Clothing Pak in order to make use of the new CR2's. Whenever a new character or product requires that both the figure that the morphs were transferred from and the figure that the morphs were transferred to be owned already by the users, then this process is legal." Translation: Tailor is legal. **** "For example, if someone creates a CR2 file for Michael's Bodysuit that contains the Muscular3 morph from Michael 2.0 and then begins to distribute that new CR2 publicly or commercially, suddenly people who have never purchased Michael 2.0 will benefit from items included only within Michael 2.0. We feel that this is unfair, particularly when it creates a disincentive to purchase that original product. Basically, anything that circumvents the need to purchase an original product is most likely not allowed." Translation: Tailor is not legal. *** In both situations, you need the original figures or files for the Tailored clothes to work. By the way I did an experiment to see just what can be done with a morphable bodysuit. I used Michael 1 in this example. I put 2 different bodysuits on Mike 1. I then gave each bodysuit the Muscular3 morph. I didn't change Mike's body at all. The results look pretty convincing. In essence this means that the "officially-sanctioned Michael 2 clothing pack" can give Mike 1 the morphs that he lacks. Mike 1 just needs to wear the clothes to become a new man.

Look folks. Tempest in a teakettle. This is pretty simple - the Tailor transfers morph and point/vertex INFORMATION, not the morphs. It trasfers the positions of the points within the morph, and it creates an APPROXIMATION of those positions in the conforming geometry. Unless they can physically prove that Tailor is actually moving the morph to the clothing rather than translating the morph INFORMATION - ie the vertex positions and spacial information, they haven't a single legal leg to stand on in copyright court. And they can't prove that it's transferring the physical morphs because it's been proven and documented over and over again that you can't transger morphs from one geometry to a different geometry by people like Nerd, JeffH, Rob Wiesenant, PhilC and numerous other poser and modeling techicians. ALL you can do is approximate the morphs in a different figure by following the curves of the shape and creating a new morph in the different mesh. So.... Daz can make whatever policy they choose. And if you legally own the Tailor, then use it for the purposes for which it was lisenced and sold to you, and as long as you stay within established legal distribution policies and contracts, do as you will with your creations. And if someone wants to bring some ill considered suit against you - let em. You can search these forums and find all sorts of interesting documentation, a lot of it posted by Daz regarding legal distribution, to feed your lawyer. ;] That's a legal can of worms I doubt anyone is going to want opened in a copyright court.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"HOWEVER, and this is the big crucial "however", because the new cr2's generated by The Tailor still require that people possess both AIko and the Victoria Clothing Pak in order to make use of the new CR2's. Whenever a new character or product requires that both the figure that the morphs were transferred from and the figure that the morphs were transferred to be owned already by the users, then this process is legal." Translation: Tailor is legal.<< Yup, Tailor is legal. So is DISTRIBUTION of the FILES made with Tailor (or any OTHER program) >>"For example, if someone creates a CR2 file for Michael's Bodysuit that contains the Muscular3 morph from Michael 2.0 and then begins to distribute that new CR2 publicly or commercially, suddenly people who have never purchased Michael 2.0 will benefit from items included only within Michael 2.0. We feel that this is unfair, particularly when it creates a disincentive to purchase that original product. Basically, anything that circumvents the need to purchase an original product is most likely not allowed." Translation: Tailor is not legal.<< Wrong. Tailor is still legal. So is any other program that will allow the making of morphs. DISTRIBUTION of the FILES is illegal, not the program used to create the files. What I really, really, really do NOT understand is why this is such a huge deal. Everyone with even the least bit of sense KNOWS that there are just some things you cannot share without prior authorization. And even in the case of the "posette hand" incident that someone mentioned earlier somewhere, DAZ and the other party were able to work things out and come up with a compromise that enabled BOTH parties to benefit. Personally, I find this to be "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" ~ W. Shakespeare Kate

Kate, maybe you don't have the Tailor. Maybe you didn't distribute "Tailored" clothing items thinking your were legally ok?! I did distribute free Tailored Clothing items along with characters I'd legally created. I did my research, and had every reason to believe everything I've done is legal and acceptable to DAZ. Now I'm worried that I could be sued. "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing": Hogwash. This is a very distressing situation, and I can't help wonder why DAZ didn't make an issue over this months ago.

I tend to agree with Ironbear totally on this issue.

"Aye there's the rub, for in that sleep of death what dreams may come must give us pause.." :) Not that that's going to stop anyone :P "less signal, more noise, some of us have bandwitdh to waste." :) later jb

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=622782

Here's a thread from March, where I asked if it's permissable to distribute Free versions of Tailored clothes. And here are a few quotes: kupa: "Our position is that we would permit the transfer of user created CR2s that rely on geometry included with Poser to other Poser users, as long as the geometry referenced in the CR2, isn't transfered. This statement would be applicable only to content supplied with Poser. Other CR2 content and transferability questions should be addressed by the copyright holders. Personally, I would rather see people support Codetwister's tool by purchasing their own copy, rather than for a few Tailor users to convert every article and then distribute new Cr2s to the community. I believe that we should support the tool developer whenever possible. I guess that's predictable, coming from me ;-) Steve Cooper" **** Anton (PheonixRising) "Hi there, I don't mind either. I have already given people permission to use Tailor on my items at Daz. I guess so long as like Mike and Vicki2 the cr2 isn't the actual product. This program is a goddsend. I dread the 4000 millenium body morphs. It is good that people can just make morphs for what they use without a hundred dials cluttering things up. Long live Tailor. Anton Anton Kisiel design" *** You see I did my research, and have the thread and quotes to prove it. Now the current situation seems even stranger or more distressing.

I'm just glad I don't work for Daz doing public relations!

• walks up, dumps bucket of chum overboard, stirs vigorously *

Ron, I have the Tailor program. No, I haven't distributed any "tailored" items - YET. But if the items you distribute require the prior purchase of the models involved, and do NOT allow anyone who uses them to do so WITHOUT the models in question then DAZ has already said it's perfectly OK. I do, however, understand DAZ's point. Why would someone buy Mike 2.0, for example, if he could get the same effects by using Tailored clothes on Mike 1? Tailor was meant to do things like make posette clothes fit Vicky or make the Vicky clothes fit the Vicky morphs. It was not meant to be used to transfer Vicky 2 morphs to Vicky 1 or Posette. THIS is what DAZ is worried about happening, if I understand the FAQ and the post at PoserPros correctly. Actually, the way I see it, this is really no different than the other distribution limits for the v. 2.0 Millenium figures. You cannot distribute the .cr2 for them. You can distribute .pdf files, you can distribute .fc2 and .pz2 files, no problem there. This, I am sure, will all be settled in a similar fashion. In any case, I simply refuse to panic over it, and I would advise anyone else to adopt the same attitude. There have been similar cases where someone has misunderstood or misinterpreted something that DAZ or CL or someone else has said, panicked over it and then discovered that what they were so upset about, what they were so afraid of wasn't really the case at all. Not the first time that's happened, won't be the last. I say calm down, wait for the offices to open on Monday and then see what DAZ has to say and go from there. Give them time to wade through all of this so that they can properly address all the concerns and questions. Keep a cool head. Kate (going off to make some art now)

Same here, Little Dragon. HeHeHe!. Thanks for that. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

ok the suject line is a joke :) BUT after reading the faq & legal bs at daz, it looks like they want the monopoly on making clothes for their figures, basically what I could understand was if anyone but them distributes any clothing or model made even remotely with one of their items it's not legal. Try this on for size : Daz brings out a new figure, great everyone says & rushes off to buy it, one slight snag no clothes available for it, won't be ready for a couple of months, bugger it says buyer I'll make my own and share them round so others will want to buy the figure too. Daz jumps on him from a great height cause he doesn't work for them & he's not allowed to make clothes for this wonderful new figure. Now there's still no clothes for the figure and no-one wants to buy it after seeing what happened to the poor soul who made clothes for it. Moral of the story is Daz rethink this or become obscelete very fast. The only reason Daz3D exists is because of the poser community, hurt the community and you may not survive it as a company. Rob.

I have stated my questions, and reservations, and have decided that I will add nothing more to this, except perhaps restating my specific questions. And the only people who can accurately answer these questions, and whose opinion I would trust, is the word of DAZ themselves. Therefore: 1) I created a character named Peytrov, a Mike2 character, whose body had soe FBM's applied. Not extremely distorted, but enough to make him more athletic and much more "cut". I then created a custom set of armor that will only fit him when the MOR pose file is applied to Mike2. Is this a violation? 2) I created a new clothing item called the Armorotica - completely original geometry, et al. I added in numerous morphs for it to conform to many of the Vicky2 FBM's, although it is so revealing that the morphs would not be able to be transferred back to a Vicky1 with the Tailor. Is this a violation? 3) If I create a new form of shirt and doublet for Mike2, then add in the morphs for this new clothing item to fit over the most significant Mike2 FBM's, would this be a violation? 4) If the answer to any of these questions is "Yes", is it grandfathered? In other words, do existing items need to be removed? Or does this "new" (note the quotes around new) policy only apply to items created after this announcement? These are my specific questions, which can help clarify the situation. Feel free to reply to them if you want, but until DAZ themselves answer them, I will still wait for my answer.

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

One note, the armor referred to in question 1 does NOT have any morphs of any kind... it just happens to be designed to fit a specific FBM.

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

Err, a specific set of partially applied FBM's. ^_^

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

Kate: "Tailor was meant to do things like make posette clothes fit Vicky or make the Vicky clothes fit the Vicky morphs. It was not meant to be used to transfer Vicky 2 morphs to Vicky 1 or Posette. THIS is what DAZ is worried about happening, if I understand the FAQ and the post at PoserPros correctly." Sorry, Tailor does NOT fit Posette clothes to Vicky, etc. Tailor only duplicates Vicky's body morphs onto Vicky's clothes. (Or Mike, etc.) Again, I will restate this question: "Why in God's green Earth did DAZ wait several months to voice an official objection to distributing "Tailored" clothing?!" If DAZ's official stance were known back in March, do you think Anton would give his blessings to Tailor and distributing FREE "Tailored" versions of his clothes? Do you think I'd put such clothes with my Free Stuff items? No.

Kate, Daz's example was distributing the .cr2 for the Michael body suit with a morph to make it fit Michael 2 because you could then have Michael 1 wear the body suit and approximate the Michael 2 body morph without owning Michael 2. Most clothing that fits Michael 2 or Vicki 2 will have that same issue. I could use the Tailor to put in a morph on a t-shirt that fits Vicki 2 with the breast8 morph. If I redistribute that t-shirt with that morph, I am in violation of Daz's new policy because Vicki 1 could wear it and look like she had the Vicki 2 breast8 morph. It doesn't matter if I created just the morph, or the t-shirt and the morph. It would still circumvent the need for Vicki 2. I have always been supportive of Daz, but I reserve the right to express my opinion on their policies and this one sucks. I don't think they thought through the ramifications of their "clarified" policy nor example. If Daz rethinks and restates the policy to something reasonable, then I will again stand behind them. If they follow through on this, I will stop doing business with them. It is that simple.

Here's another quote on this issue (from SKondris): "Thanks for your comments and questions. I'll try to answer all your concerns. "What we are stating here is DAZ's stance on this issue. Each artist reserves the right to decide for themselves what they want to do with their own products. "CodeTwister made his decision and stated it publicly. Now we have made our decision and want to do what we can to help everyone understand. Each artist/creator will need to cross this bridge themselves and make their own decision about each of their products as well when it begins to affect their own work. "The most important issue is what I tried to focus on in my initial post: circumvention. If someone passed around all of Michael 2.0's morphs within a cr2 for Michael shoes, would we get all hot-and-bothered about it? No. And why not? Because it creates no real damage to any of our products. There are some items which we are more concerned about, the bodysuit is the best example I can think of. If you have Michael 1 and the standard bodysuit, no big deal. If someone transfers all of Michael 2.0's FBM's into the new bodysuit cr2 file, then someone with only Michael one has everything he/she needs to create their own new muscular fantasy/superhero character. This crosses the line from being a creation which enhances or adds value to a product and instead begins to directly compete with that product. "There are several items even within our own store which use this technology in a good way. For example, the Vicki's Wedding Day dress contains several of the Victoria 2.0 breast morphs in itself. This adds significant value to the dress and even to Victoria 2.0, but it does not make someone think "Hey, all I really need is the dress". John Brugioni contacted us directly when he began to work on his morphing clothing paks because he realized that his work might be seen as an infringement. We didn't just turn him away and tell him not to do it, instead we worked with him individually and came to an agreement that worked for both parties in which he sells his products exclusively through our site. There will be certain items and situations that we will be more than happy to allow, there will also be some that we will not be so keen on. Whenever anyone has a specific question, please feel more than free to contact us and find out what we think. "We are not announcing our position to be malicious in any way. We want the community to thrive as much as possible, but we also feel a need to protect our own interests. We are a business and if everyone begins distributing for free what we spend months working to produce for the community, then DAZ will not be able to produce anything at all. This new technology empowers everyone in the community tremendously, we hope that all will use it responsibly and honestly. "Scifiguy, thanks for being so open with us and willing to communicate with us and abide by our decision, please contact us directly whenever you feel you need to discuss this in specific terms with us. Hopefully this helps you understand our position better and clears up this matter, if not please let me know. "Everyone here is gone for the night, but we'll be back in tomorrow to see what else needs to be addressed. "

I really wanna hear what Daz has to say about this again and in clear language. I would buy Tailor if it could be ued be me but it can't. I did buy the morphing clothes package. I have Mike 2, Vicki 2 and jsut about every other product that Daz made but I just hate that I will neer be able to put clothes on a Mike figure that isn't the standard. That pretty much negates the reason for having Mike 2. Sure the head morphs are great but everyone under the sun isn't built the same way or living in spandex or naked. Like I said though. I really wanna hear what Daz says and ifd they do try to enforce this then include some body morphs in their clothes and port tailor over to mac to make it usable and make the M2 and V2 characters usable to their potential.

Ronknights - thanks for reposting SKondris statement. Unfortunately most of it is hyperbole and the essence is that DAZ wants to be Accuser, Victim, Prosecutor and JUDGE in all matters. They also want to stifle competition no matter what they say to the contrary. I owned Scifiguy's bodysuit, AND Doug Sturk's Bodysuit AND Michael CloPak 1 and 2 AND the Tailor, But I bought the M2 Morphing Clothing Pack ANYWAY because I thought it had merits of its own. Now I want a refund for the M2 Clothing Pak, not because it is duplicated by something else, but for 3 reasons: 1) because it is INFERIOR 2) because I was mislead into thinking it was conformiing 3) because I am tired of supporting a company that treats me like a criminal BEFORE THE FACT.

The morphing clothing pack is conforming :) Least with everything I have seen it matches perfectly. It doesn't do it automatically because if it did that there would be crosstalk with is a bad thing :) But I supposse you could make a crosstalk one if you stripped out the extra letters in the morph dials

who do we lynch tomorrow? btw... I now own the color "red". Anyone using this color or derivation of this color for any reason must now pay me royalties. Furthermore, since it was my idea to claim ownership of the color, if you attempt to claim ownership of any other color...Im gonna come after you for violation of intellectual copyright. make checks payable to "brycetech" see, you can put anything in writing...doesnt mean its worth the paper its written on tho. :P BT

Umm... A question. DAZ is against distribution of anything that could be worked back to 'create' one of their products. That is reasonable. So... If I have V2 and Tailor, and I make an item for V2, is it possible to re-create V2 from that item of clothing? It seems to me more like Tailor would 'fit' an item to a figure with morphs set at a speciphic point. Would the clothing adapt if I later changed the morph settings, or would I have to run Tailor again?

OMNedon, The Tailor generates morphs for your custom geometry to approximate the morphs in the figure. Now you could take the process backwards and apply a morph in a clothing item and approximate it on the figure, getting a similiar, but less desirable morph. Notice I did not say exact. Now The Tailor isn't the problem. DAZ's statement basically says that morphs or even clothing items without morphs, even if they are 100% original items can break thier copyright because you can put it on a figure and it will look like you have thier upgraded figure. Let's say you only have Mike1 and I make a shirt and pants set that will fit Mike2 in his muscular form. You can buy that shirt and pants and put it on Mike1 and he will look muscular. You will be seeing the clothing and not his body. DAZ wants to make this a breach of copyright even though none of thier geometry is used.

Omnedon, I noticed I didn't fully answer your question. When you push an item through tailor, it doesn't matter what you have your morph set to. Actually at this stage you don't have any morphs set as it is outside poser. What you get is a morph in the clothing item completly separate from the figure. If you set the figures morph dial to 1 you can set the clothing dial to 1 and it will closely match. If you set the figure to 0.5 you set the clothing to 0.5 and it will still closely match.

I just checked the DAZ site. The Victoria 2 Morphing Clothing Pack apparently does not require that you posses Vicky 2 for it to work. So, based on DAZ's own statements, that clothing pack would allow someone to put the Vicky 2 catsuit on Vicky 1, and give her Vicky 2's morphs! Ouch.. maybe they hadn't thought of that?! **** "Requires the previous purchase of the Victoria Clothing Pak 1"

Ahh... So it does put morphs into the clothing item... Is it possible, if I were to take V2, set the morphs as desired (for example I twiddle V2 for a character and call her 'Anne') to use (Morph Manager, Objaction Mover?) to lock the morphs. Then run Tailor and make clothes for Anne. So... I know it is possible to distribute alterations (require V2 and add my alterations to make Anne) but my alterations without V2 would be useless. And clothes for Anne would not fit V2... (Although I suppose the clothes for Anne could then be used to make V2 into Anne without actually having the alterations.) Or am I just getting more confused?

If I read things right, it started with DAZ saying or implying that someone could copy Mike 2 morphs from the bodysuit, onto Mike 1. Now DAZ is saying Mike 1 can wear a Mike 2 bodysuit and pretend he's Mike 1. In otherwords, "the clothes will make the man." The man himself still remains the same. OH, but it's ok to make such a morphing bodysuit if you have an exclusive selling arrangement with DAZ. Mike 1 can still pretend he's Mike 2, but DAZ is making money from that masquerade.

Yes, exactly. DAZ is trying to eliminate any and all competition for their products, using "copuright violations" as a smokescreen, because they know the Poser community in general supports copyright holders. This time, I'm not buying it. DAZ are trying to prevent people creating entirely original products that would be compatible with DAZ's entirely original products. (I don't care if the product in question is a bodysuit or an earring: as far as I am concerned the PRINCIPLE is the same.) That's not protecting copyright: it's bullying the competition. And it's not a legally supportable position.

It's the equivalent of saying that no one can create a texture for Victoria, because the texture map is necessarily a derivative product of their copyrighted mesh. Where would they be if that were the case?

Tagging this so I know where I stopped reading.

I do NOT want to be limited to selling my products in just DAZ's store. Once again that kills any and all competition. If I make a pant and shirt set that fits Mike2 in morphed form you can put it on Mike1 and he will look like Mike2. So freaking what! Don't make modellers out there creating original items the thieves. Make it illegal to extract morphs from a clothing item and use those morphs to apply to the character so that it circumvents the purchase of the upgrade. That should be where thier stance lies, in the hands of those actually ripping them off, not in the hands of people creating products for thier new character! If I create something new using my own mesh I should not be told where I can and can not sell it.

Yep. Well said. That is what bothers me with this policy.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

If I create something new using my own mesh NOBODY can stop me, they can not like this, they can say what they wants, they can try, but they CANNOT STOP ME.

Stupidity also evolves!

Just as a point, From what I can see of the Tailor, in use and by inference, it DOESN'T TRANSFER MORPHS. It acts like a collision detection system that maps the shape of a morph, then appriximates that shape on a differnet object or mesh. This is one of the reasons that many Tailor morphs need to be tweaked once done, they are limited by the geometry of the target object. Therefore "moving" morphs via the Tailor program is a but like JPEG compression, everytime a morph is adapted to a new object a bit of the details are lost. Not exactly the best way I can see to create a Mike 2 from a Mike 1 if you ask me. As I've said on another site, and to paraphrase. The answer is to only create clothing to fit the basic Mike and Vicki shape. Then everyone can buy the Tailor program from DAZ and add their own morphs to the basic cloths, at least until P5 adds this funtion. Of course DAZ can then claim that P5 hurts their sales of the Tailor and.... well you get the idea. mike

What a tasty melange of fact, fiction, truth, half-truth, fantasy, inuendo, speculation etc. At least, I can throw in my own "guess" and not feel that I'm lowering the standards of communication here. Two words: Reverse Engineering (as in the license agreement). There is a reason software companies create potentially competing/infringing products in so called "clean rooms," where the developers have no access to the code of the product they're targeting. They want an audit trail to prove they didn't use someone else's intellectual property in their creation I'm guessing this is Daz' position. If you (whether manually or using the Tailor) need to use their meshes to create your product then that's reverse engineering and they can bring legal action against you. Whether it would hold up in court is up to a jury. In their view, they are exercising discretion in deciding whether or not a particular item is one they should disallow, just like the cop who may ley you slide for going 5 mph over the limit. If this is the case, then yes, they could "outlaw" shrink wrapping, etc. but have chosen not to. This may seem arbitrary but they are making decisions based on their own interests, trying to balance them with maintaining good relationships with the Poser community. You may disagree or feel that they are doing a bad thing but they obviously feel they have the law on their side. They may be wrong but anyone with even a laymen's knowledge of the legal system knows that trying to say what would or wouldn't result from going to trial is foolish at best. That's why wise people usually try to settle out of court. Someone needs to use Avatar Lab so we can have an arena with "real" death matches. The verbal blood and guts is getting too tame. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming. "He is the princes jester : a very dull fool; only his gift is in devising impossible slanders: none but libertines delight in him; and the commendation is not in his wit but in his villany; for he both pleaseth men and angers them, and then they laugh at him and beat him." Shakespeare

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Maybe someone can write a program like Objaction Mover that can be used to encrypt cr2 files?

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Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

The S/NR of this tread is somewhat north of absurd! How about a little less heat and a LOT more light?

Why shouldn't speech be free? Very little of it is worth anything.

Sorry Charlie. I agree, but that's a lot to ask. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé